Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2013-12-30

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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02:15 japhb preflex: ask Timbus Do you mind if I tell dalek about Net--IRC?
02:15 preflex Consider it noted.
02:18 japhb hugme: help
02:18 hugme japhb: (add $who to $project | list projects | show $project | hug $nickname | tweet $twittername $message )
02:18 japhb Weird, hugme doesn't respond to private messages
02:19 japhb hugme: list projects
02:19 hugme japhb: I know about Math-Model, Math-RungeKutta, MiniDBI, bench-scripts, book, gge, hugme, ilbot, java2perl6, json, modules.perl6.org, november, nqp-rx, nqpbook, perl6, perl6-examples, perl6-wtop, proto, rakudo, star, svg-matchdumper, svg-plot, tardis, try.rakudo.org, tufte, ufo, web, yapsi
02:23 colomon joined #perl6
02:23 Timbus japhb, go for it
02:23 preflex Timbus: you have 1 new message. '/msg preflex messages' to read it.
02:24 Timbus although i didnt think there'd be that many commits
02:28 japhb I'm full of surprises.  ;-)
02:33 colomon labster: just sent you a pull request
02:36 dalek Net--IRC: 66bf7f8 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | lib/Net/IRC/Modules/ACME.pm:
02:36 dalek Net--IRC: More ACME module fun: botsnack, rot13, and 8ball improvements
02:36 dalek Net--IRC:
02:36 dalek Net--IRC: * Add a Botsnack module (and botsnack command) to accept yummy botsnacks
02:36 dalek Net--IRC: * Add a Rot13 module (and rot13 command) to (de)obfuscate ASCII text
02:36 dalek Net--IRC: * Clean up 8ball responses slightly and convert 8ball to a standard command
02:36 dalek Net--IRC: review: https://github.com/TiMBuS/​Net--IRC/commit/66bf7f8651
02:38 Timbus for a second i thought you edited my 8ball reply list
02:41 japhb Just fixed .. -> ... and similar on a couple.  Same intent.  Same negativity.  ;-)
02:41 * japhb starts implementing 'hug' as a counterpoint.
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02:56 dalek Net--IRC: 7ffdf6d | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | lib/Net/IRC/Modules/ACME.pm:
02:56 dalek Net--IRC: Add an ACME::Hug class, like (the whimsical part of) moritz++'s hugme bot
02:56 dalek Net--IRC: review: https://github.com/TiMBuS/​Net--IRC/commit/7ffdf6d556
02:56 japhb karma and factoids might be fun too ...
02:57 Timbus man im not allowed to toot my own horn but because you added the command role, i now can
02:58 Timbus i like how easy stuff is to add to this bot
02:58 Timbus i lik ehow easy it is, to add stuff to this bot*
02:58 Timbus better
02:59 Timbus also if you have any ideas for tying threads into it, id love to help (because it has been my blocker for the past.. 2 years?)
03:00 Timbus i also wanted an admin commands module for eg, reconnect, disconnect things.
03:01 Timbus related to both of the above, i also wanted to add commands from the console
03:06 labster merged.  Thanks, colomon!
03:06 colomon labster++
03:07 labster One of these days, I need to get back to writing Perl 6.  Probably by decrufting all my modules.
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03:10 colomon labster: File::Find::Duplicates and IO::Path::More are both failing at the moment...
03:10 labster yeah... yeah.
03:10 colomon also File::Directory::Tree and File::Spec::Case
03:11 colomon May be only very small changes needed, both the modules I fixed today needed only one-line fixes.
03:12 labster Well, I have a friend visiting from Alaska right now, but maybe later tonight.
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03:26 colomon File::Spec::Case may require more changes...
03:31 colomon ===SORRY!===
03:31 colomon No such method 'rxtype' for invocant of type 'NQPMu'
03:31 colomon (that's in File::Spec)
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04:23 japhb Timbus: I've been vaguely thinking about admin commands too, but hadn't quite decided how to implement that.  The idea of console commands (which is to say, an I/O path separate from the IRC server connection) definitely informs the concurrency design -- and a few other bits as well.
04:24 japhb And yeah, it's definitely getting easy to add stuff.  Very good for just adding a random feature for the -Ofun of it.  :-)
04:29 japhb Timbus: For the concurrent version, do you want to support non-concurrent or not-current-spec-concurrency implementations (rakudo-parrot, niecza, pugs), or just focus on current-spec-concurrency compilers (rakudo-jvm and rakudo-moar, when it's ready)?
04:30 japhb Dropping back compatibility will be a lot cleaner, but it rules out the currently most common implementation, rakudo-parrot.
04:31 lue japhb: I predict -parrot is still the most used just because -moar isn't ready yet.
04:33 japhb lue: I would certainly agree.  But that doesn't change the current situation, because there are people that refuse to use JVM, and without rakudo-moar, we would be effectively leaving that group in the cold until rakudo-moar is up to speed.
04:34 lue yeah :/ I was just mentioning that r-p won't be an issue forever (nor, hopefully, much longer)
04:34 * japhb is more pragmatic than that, but I understand the reasoning.
04:34 japhb :-)
04:38 lue japhb: maybe you could utilize some sort of $*MAX_THREADS variable to deal with r-p ? :)
04:42 japhb lue: I'm not sure it would work at *all* on r-p, even with threads limited to 1.
04:42 japhb I think the implementation is backend-specific, so the necessary classes don't even exist on r-p.
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04:43 japhb (I talked with jnthn++ about emulating on r-p at one point, but he was busy with way cooler stuff  :-)
04:44 lue ? I'd've thought r-p would at least not parsefail on threads stuff. MAX_THREADS or CAN_THREADS would be a way to block off threads code during runtime.
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04:50 japhb lue: Sure, but I'm trying to avoid two implementations of all the common code ....
04:51 lue If r-m were just a *little* further along, I'd suggest forgetting about parrot. But we're not quite there yet :/
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04:52 japhb Exactly
04:57 japhb Come to think of it, it's probably best to do the concurrency work in a branch anyway, because if we're going to collaborate to get it done the code will be non-functional for a while.  So we can do concurrent-only code in the branch and just not merge back to master until it's agreed to do so
05:05 lue that would be the best thing to do, aside from just waiting to do it :)
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07:23 moritz std: s/$//
07:23 camelia std 4731beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 122m␤»
07:32 lue moritz: shouldn't std be doing LTM though, and prefer $/ over $ ? :P
07:34 moritz lue: I think it special-cases that somehow
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08:00 dalek Net--IRC: dad3dd5 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | docs/overview.pod:
08:00 dalek Net--IRC: Add a docs/ directory and a design overview document
08:00 dalek Net--IRC: review: https://github.com/TiMBuS/​Net--IRC/commit/dad3dd52fa
08:01 hoelzro_ morning #perl6!
08:03 Timbus japhb, id just branch the non-concurrency version and put concurrency in the main. i doubt anyone would mind
08:06 Timbus japhb, for admin commands, i figured you could declare a special type of module. one that would be passed the ::Bot object
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08:06 Timbus would need some kind of auth system though
08:06 Timbus as little as possible in the core
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09:45 moritz \o *
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09:53 FROGGS o/
09:53 grondilu Hello #perl6.  I was thinking about http://rosettacode.org/wiki/IBAN#Perl_6, and I thought it'd be nice if we could have an implicit match against $_ while evaluating subsets in boolean context.  In this example, we could have written   IBAN ?? 'valid' !! 'invalid'   instead of    $_ ~~ IBAN ?? 'valid' !! 'invalid'
09:53 grondilu do you think it'd be too much magic?
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09:54 grondilu honestly I doubt evaluating a subset in boolean context could mean anything else.
09:56 grondilu though frankly, I even wonder if that could not be also true with any class
09:57 grondilu r: $_ = 7; say so Int; say so Num
09:57 moritz sounds like too much magic for my taste
09:57 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«False␤False␤»
09:58 moritz then people will wonder why   my $x = 'IBAN'; $x ?? a !! b; behaves different
09:59 FROGGS my Int $x; say so $x # would match against $_, which is not what you want there
10:00 grondilu hum yeah indeed
10:01 masak .&IBAN
10:02 grondilu r: subset Even of Int where * %% 2; say .&Even given 42
10:02 camelia rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/mXhhdAfyZzâ�¤Undeclared name:â�¤    &Even used at line 1. Did you mean 'Even'?â�¤â�¤Â»
10:02 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 174727: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/mAStYUCtSzâ�¤Undeclared name:â�¤    &Even used at line 1. Did you mean 'Even'?â�¤â�¤Â»
10:03 nwc10 r: say $*CWD
10:03 camelia rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«IO::Path</home/p6eval_eval>␤»
10:03 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 174727: OUTPUT«IO::Path</home/p6eval>␤»
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10:03 nwc10 interesting that they differ
10:03 nwc10 I wonder - would it be useful/possible to put the test script in a freshly created temp dir, make that cwd, and hence give the same leafname to all the Rakudos
10:04 nwc10 so that error messages like that one would (or at least should) fold
10:04 nwc10 or is that a lot of work for little gain?
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10:09 masak grondilu: oh, subsets. no, that won't work.
10:10 masak there is no &Even, just Even.
10:10 masak personally, I think smartmatching shouldn't be shoved further into the language.
10:11 masak it's nice and all, but there are already a couple ways to get at it, and that feels enough to me.
10:11 grondilu ok
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13:33 masak r: subset Even of Any where { $_ %% 2 }; sub Even { $^n ~~ Even }; say .&Even given 42
13:33 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«True␤»
13:33 masak \o/
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13:42 * grondilu wonders what rule allows the distinction of the two meanings of Even in sub Even { $^n ~~ Even }
13:43 moritz S02 has them all, iirc
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15:03 dalek specs: 7687eca | (Tim Smith)++ | S32-setting-library/Exception.pod:
15:03 dalek specs: Correct last-modified date
15:03 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/7687ecaad0
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15:11 timotimo r: sub scarysmart(Mu \checker, \t, \f)
15:11 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/BKXbrK9uSbâ�¤Missing blockâ�¤at /tmp/BKXbrK9uSb:1â�¤------> [32msub scarysmart(Mu \checker, \t, \f)[33mâ��[31m<EOL>[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        new term to be definedâ�¤        constr…»
15:11 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/2ErDGzLZziâ�¤Missing blockâ�¤at /tmp/2ErDGzLZzi:1â�¤------> [32msub scarysmart(Mu \checker, \t, \f)[33mâ��[31m<EOL>[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        new term to be definedâ�¤        constrain…»
15:11 timotimo er ...
15:13 timotimo r: sub scarysmart(Mu \checker, \t, \f) { OUTER::$_ ~~ checker ?? t !! f }; subset Even of Int where * %% 2; given 10 { say Even.&scarysmart: "yes", "no" }; given 11 { say Even.&scarysmart: "yes", "no" }
15:13 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/Miw3SA6E92â�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/Miw3SA6E92:1â�¤------> [32mcarysmart(Mu \checker, \t, \f) { OUTER::[33mâ��[31m$_ ~~ checker ?? t !! f }; subset Even o[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤  â€¦Â»
15:13 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/ZSTG_StVZZâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/ZSTG_StVZZ:1â�¤------> [32mcarysmart(Mu \checker, \t, \f) { OUTER::[33mâ��[31m$_ ~~ checker ?? t !! f }; subset Even o[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤     …»
15:13 timotimo r: sub scarysmart(Mu \checker, \t, \f) { $OUTER::_ ~~ checker ?? t !! f }; subset Even of Int where * %% 2; given 10 { say Even.&scarysmart: "yes", "no" }; given 11 { say Even.&scarysmart: "yes", "no" }
15:13 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«no␤no␤»
15:13 timotimo oops?
15:13 timotimo oh well.
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15:57 smls r: my $foo; say (defined $foo ?? 'a' !! 'b');
15:57 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«True␤»
15:58 smls Why does 'defined' have such loose precedence?
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16:02 timotimo because it's a word and wordy operators tend to do that
16:02 timotimo compare || and or
16:02 timotimo if you need a bit tighter preference, try //
16:02 timotimo (which also thunks the RHS)
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16:13 masak smls: it's kind of a "no exceptions" policy for listops.
16:13 masak smls: &defined is special-treated in Perl 5, but not in Perl 6.
16:14 smls I see
16:14 masak it's a trade-off like everything else.
16:15 smls I guess it just feels weird to me because I'm used to Perl 5... :)
16:16 masak Perl 6: fewer exceptions. it feels weird, at first ;)
16:16 FROGGS you can still use the method form to glue it to $foo :o)
16:16 masak oh, that's troo too :)
16:17 masak FROGGS++ # excellent rationalization ;)
16:17 smls Speaking of the ternary operator, I wish there was a binary version of it which automatically "does the right thing" for the false condition without requiring me to explicitly specify it:
16:17 smls my $text = $summary ~ (%opt<verbose> ?? $explanation) ~ $footer;
16:17 masak there is. it's called infix:<||>
16:21 smls I meant, if used in a string concatenation it would return the empty string if the condition is False, when used in a numeric additon it would return 0, etc.
16:23 smls || doesn't do that afaict
16:23 masak oh, I use 'if' for that.
16:23 masak lemme show you.
16:23 masak r: for "foo", "", "bar" { say "ha", ($_ if $_), "ha"! }
16:23 camelia rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/_tEV_Q2p0Uâ�¤Negation metaoperator not followed by valid infixâ�¤at /tmp/_tEV_Q2p0U:1â�¤------> [32m "", "bar" { say "ha", ($_ if $_), "ha"![33mâ��[31m }[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        post…»
16:23 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 174727: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/MMse73Ctrsâ�¤Negation metaoperator not followed by valid infixâ�¤at /tmp/MMse73Ctrs:1â�¤------> [32m "", "bar" { say "ha", ($_ if $_), "ha"![33mâ��[31m }[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        p…»
16:24 masak r: for "foo", "", "bar" { say "ha", ($_ if $_), "ha!" }
16:24 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«hafooha!␤haNilha!␤habarha!␤»
16:24 masak er.
16:24 masak ok, Nil. not good.
16:24 masak that used to work...
16:24 masak r: for "foo", "", "bar" { say "ha", list($_ if $_), "ha!" }
16:24 camelia rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/8lVTFg_Nwiâ�¤Unable to parse expression in argument list; couldn't find final ')' â�¤at /tmp/8lVTFg_Nwi:1â�¤------> [32mor "foo", "", "bar" { say "ha", list($_ [33mâ��[31mif $_), "ha!" }[0mâ�¤   …»
16:24 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 174727: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/r4t0N2Dnmq�Unable to parse expression in argument list; couldn't find final ')' �at /tmp/r4t0N2Dnmq:1�------> [32mor "foo", "", "bar" { say "ha", list($_ [33m�[31mif $_), "ha!" }[0m�…»
16:25 * masak gives up
16:25 FROGGS p: for "", "Fluss" { say "{$_}pferd" }
16:25 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727: OUTPUT«pferd␤Flusspferd␤»
16:25 FROGGS p: for "", "Fluss" { say $_, "pferd" }
16:25 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727: OUTPUT«pferd␤Flusspferd␤»
16:25 FROGGS w/e
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16:31 smls r: for 0, 1 -> $verbose { say 'Foo' ~ ('Bar' if $verbose) ~ 'Baz'; }
16:31 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«FooBaz␤FooBarBaz␤»
16:31 smls masak: it seems to work after all :)
16:33 timotimo masak: i think it either used to return () or Nil used to flatten to nothing or so
16:38 smls r: for False, True { say 2 * (3 if $_) * 5; }
16:38 camelia rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Nil in numeric context␤0␤30␤»
16:38 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 174727: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Nil in numeric context  in block  at /tmp/_0DQzUSvR2:1␤␤0␤30␤»
16:38 smls well, at least with string concatenation it works
16:39 psch r: for False, True { say [*] 2, (3 if $_), 5; }
16:39 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«10␤30␤»
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16:47 masak smls: oh, I shoulda stringified.
16:47 masak smls: I did that first, but then I looked at the ~s and thought "useless use of string concat"
16:47 masak well, seems I got refucktor'd.
16:49 smls &print doesn't insert Nil in the output when using the comma separator, only &say
16:51 masak that's because &say uses .gist whereas &print uses .Str
16:51 masak :(
16:53 smls Why does &say use .gist?
16:54 smls Is it meant as more of a debugging function, than for production use?
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16:56 FROGGS smls: it is meant for human eyes, yes
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18:20 TimToady r: subset Even of Int where * %% 2; say .Even given 42
18:20 camelia rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«No such method 'Even' for invocant of type 'Int'␤  in block  at /tmp/usYQwq7dw9:1␤␤»
18:20 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 174727: OUTPUT«No such method 'Even' for invocant of type 'Int'␤  in block  at /tmp/x14V5IuTmE:1␤␤»
18:20 TimToady currently you can't use subset types as coercions
18:20 TimToady if we defined them as coercing to Bool, that would work
18:20 TimToady r: say .Int given 42.2;  # we can already do this
18:20 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«42␤»
18:21 TimToady and then we automatically get the $_ matching with the . form
18:22 TimToady no special case, other than giving a meaning to subset coercion where it has none
18:22 TimToady then you can write if Even($x) {...}
18:23 TimToady arguably, coercions to boolean is precisely what subset types do anyway
18:23 timotimo at some point, we really need a tool that can answer "what does this refer to?" given a location in the code... to find out why that Even(...) causes a coercion
18:23 timotimo that's about right, yeah
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18:34 dalek specs: 143376c | larry++ | S12-objects.pod:
18:34 dalek specs: subset types coerce to Bool
18:35 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/143376c65c
18:36 TimToady grondilu: ^^
18:45 TimToady moritz, lue: STD uses LTM to recognize $ as end-of-string by including the following character, which must match \s | '|' | '&' | ')' | ']' | '>' | $ | <.stopper>
18:45 TimToady and it wins the tiebreaker by being more derived
18:46 TimToady in the case of s/$//, we match / as a stopper
18:47 TimToady did anyone ever rakudobug the heredoc problem that deleted the \t instead of the whitespace?
18:49 dalek std: 09dda5b | larry++ | STD.pm6:
18:49 dalek std: workaround bug with \h*? not deratcheting
18:49 dalek std: review: https://github.com/perl6/std/commit/09dda5b217
18:52 FROGGS TimToady: I did
18:52 TimToady thanks
18:53 FROGGS it deletes the whitespace but converts the \t too
18:54 TimToady senile old man is senile...
18:54 FROGGS :o)
19:00 TimToady r: for "foo", "", "bar" { say "ha", ($_ if $_), "ha!" }
19:00 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«hafooha!␤haNilha!␤habarha!␤»
19:00 TimToady r: for "foo", "", "bar" { say list "ha", ($_ if $_), "ha!" }
19:00 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«ha foo ha!␤ha ha!␤ha bar ha!␤»
19:00 TimToady the subtle thing here is that 'say' does not provide a list context
19:00 TimToady r: for "foo", "", "bar" { say list "ha", ($_ && $_), "ha!" }
19:00 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«ha foo ha!␤ha  ha!␤ha bar ha!␤»
19:01 TimToady btw, '&&' is the exact equivalent of the desired "?? without a !!" here
19:01 thou joined #perl6
19:02 TimToady smls: ^^
19:02 TimToady r: say ()
19:02 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«␤»
19:03 TimToady r: say (),()
19:03 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«␤»
19:03 FROGGS that is a feature I love so much here, and hate in PHP :o)
19:03 TimToady otoh, I'm not sure why it's producing a Nil there
19:03 FROGGS (the return-the-last-thing feature)
19:04 TimToady someone was asking about why we can't remove Iterator from Nil; maybe this is one of those spots where we're depending on Nil turning into ()
19:05 TimToady whereas else-less if is supposed to return () directly, not via Nil
19:05 FROGGS timotimo was that
19:05 TimToady r: say (42 if 0).perl
19:05 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
19:05 TimToady yeah, it's still depending on the old Nil behavior
19:08 TimToady so say emitting Nil there is a rakudobug despite the non-listiness
19:08 arnsholt joined #perl6
19:10 smls for False, True { say list "A", ($_ && 'B'), "C" }
19:10 smls r: for False, True { say list "A", ($_ && 'B'), "C" }
19:10 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«A False C␤A B C␤»
19:10 TimToady hmm
19:11 TimToady well, maybe I screwed that up :)
19:11 * TimToady is confusing p5 with p6
19:12 TimToady in p5 '&&' and 'if' were equivalent, though they were both wrong :)
19:12 TimToady (from the standpoint of interpolating () into a list)
19:13 TimToady r: for False, True { say list "A", (if $_ {'B'}), "C" }
19:13 dalek specs: 30dc175 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | S12-objects.pod:
19:13 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«A C␤A B C␤»
19:13 dalek specs: Fill in a missing word
19:13 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/30dc17538c
19:13 TimToady I guess you've gotta do it like that, if you want it in that order
19:14 TimToady I guess P5 compensated somewhat by defining false as ''
19:15 TimToady r: for False, True { say list "A", 'B' xx ?$_, "C" }
19:15 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«A C␤A B C␤»
19:15 TimToady another way to do it
19:16 TimToady well, don't need the ? there in this case
19:17 ajr joined #perl6
19:21 smls r: for False, True { say 100 + 10 * ?$_ + 1 }
19:21 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«101␤111␤»
19:22 smls ok, so that one can also be extended for use with other operators than comma
19:26 rindolf joined #perl6
19:26 TimToady sure, Perl has always felt quite strongly that booleans used as numbers should turn into 0 and 1
19:28 TimToady being allowed to use A as if it were a B is one of those tagmemics ideas from natural language
19:28 TimToady but it won't endear you to the strict type theorists :)
19:30 abnorman joined #perl6
19:31 geekosaur use Agda; ...
19:33 smls TimToady: Just out of interest, is there no generic way to create an 'identity' value?
19:33 smls So that  « $val op $identity === $val »  for all operators op and values $val?
19:33 smls That's what my imaginary "?? without !!" would return in case the condition evaluates as False
19:34 * masak .oO( "Just out of the Internet" )
19:34 timotimo i think fixing else-less if returning Nil should be an easy fix
19:34 masak smls: many operators have an identity, yes.
19:34 timotimo do we have some globally shared () instance?
19:34 masak smls: but I don't believe we ever made them (fully) introspectable.
19:35 masak smls: you can however query the ones we have by sending 0 arguments to them.
19:35 masak r: say [+]()
19:35 timotimo isn't that just what you get from ... yeah
19:35 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«0␤»
19:35 masak r: say [max]()
19:35 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«-Inf␤»
19:35 masak r: say [&&]()
19:35 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727, rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«True␤»
19:40 smls joined #perl6
19:40 raydiak (?? without !!)++
19:41 raiph http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2013-12-28#i_8047553 # masak? others?
19:41 denis_boyun joined #perl6
19:44 timotimo locally, an else-less if will return () now.
19:44 colomon joined #perl6
19:46 timotimo there's many other things thart rtend to return Nil
19:47 timotimo just looking for Nil in Actions.nqp
19:56 zby_home_ joined #perl6
20:01 hoverboard joined #perl6
20:07 masak raiph: looking.
20:07 raiph masak: thx, "the plan" is prolly the main thing
20:08 Rotwang joined #perl6
20:10 masak raiph: I don't think "make Rakudo's sort work with X" on questhub is a brilliant way to suggest new behaviors.
20:10 masak maybe that's just me.
20:10 masak but Perl 6 is extensible enough that you could start doing this as a module, and then clamor for it being core/spec.
20:10 raiph masak: that's to match spec
20:11 masak oh
20:11 raiph the quest is to match spec
20:11 * masak feels out of the loop
20:11 masak raiph: that's fine then.
20:11 raiph it's from 2004 :)
20:11 masak ignore my comment :)
20:11 masak raip++
20:11 masak raiph++
20:11 masak &
20:11 raiph thx
20:19 arnsholt_ joined #perl6
20:21 timotimo ah damn
20:21 moritz timotimo: did you spectest your last rakudo commit?
20:21 timotimo there are else-less if branches in the setting before infix:<,> exists
20:22 timotimo which one was that? making nil give nil again for methods and postcircumfixes?
20:22 moritz timotimo: 'cause I get a few spectest failures that I'd attribute to your changes, not mine
20:22 moritz timotimo: correct
20:23 timotimo oh? strange. i don't remember seeing any. can you gist them for me?
20:24 moritz timotimo: https://gist.github.com/mo​ritz/fd32e69f882e88ef0759
20:24 moritz timotimo: the one in misc.t might be new-ish
20:25 moritz timotimo: but at least the topic.t failure looks like it might be related to Nil stuff
20:25 moritz it calls .foo on an unset $_ and expects it to fial
20:25 moritz *fail
20:25 moritz well, die
20:26 timotimo running my own now
20:27 timotimo my net is very unreliable at the moment
20:27 moritz still at CCC?
20:28 timotimo heh, no.
20:28 timotimo on a train :)
20:29 japhb Timbus: re: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2013-12-30#i_8051103 ... 1) Despite working for Goo-(Yeah, we develop everything at HEAD, what's your point?)-gle, I'm still more comfortable putting a big new restructuring in a branch; besides which, I will probably want to make little modules here and there as a mental break, and that should just go in master and get merged into the WIP.
20:30 japhb 2) Events now get a reference to the ::Bot object, which was necessary to support introspecting modules such as ::Help.  So that's already dealt with.  The more interesting point will be making updates to the ::Bot concurrency-safe.
20:31 japhb 3) Yeah, auth was a major mental cud I was chewing on.  I notice that the POE-based Perl 5 IRC bot framework used by hugme allows you to introspect whether a nick has been authenticated by nickserv, so that might be worth looking into.
20:32 japhb 4) Yeah, I agree, as little as possible in core.  Like Bloxsom, Net::IRC's core should mostly just be giving a common scaffolding to hang modules on.  :-)
20:33 japhb 2a) Actually, a lot of what makes the concurrency work non-trivial is managing updates sanely without making a bunch of extra work for module authors or over-complicating the core.
20:36 dalek roast: 1cdd21a | moritz++ | S12-methods/topic.t:
20:36 dalek roast: make an unrelated test not rely on the absence of methods on Nil
20:36 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/1cdd21aaea
20:40 timotimo i seem to be missing icu
20:41 timotimo TY, moritz
20:42 moritz that's just one of them :-)
20:42 timotimo it seems like i get the same failures as you do locally
20:42 timotimo plus icu failures
20:43 timotimo oh, huh
20:43 timotimo so $_ may need a new default value perhaps?
20:46 dalek roast: b56e374 | moritz++ | S02-literals/sub-calls.t:
20:46 dalek roast: make an unrelated test not rely on the absence of methods on Nil
20:46 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/b56e374c3f
20:47 moritz p: sub f() { }; f() = 3; say 'alive'
20:47 camelia rakudo-parrot 174727: OUTPUT«alive␤»
20:48 moritz that's a bit WTF-y
20:49 dalek roast: f3d506e | moritz++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
20:49 dalek roast: Make test a bit more reliable
20:49 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/f3d506eb4e
20:52 timotimo r: i agree, moritz, it is
20:52 camelia rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/W7H6r2jhH5â�¤Bogus statementâ�¤at /tmp/W7H6r2jhH5:1â�¤------> [32m<BOL>[33mâ��[31mi agree, moritz, it is[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        statement listâ�¤        prefix or te…»
20:52 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 174727: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/TZNsEzHoR4â�¤Bogus statementâ�¤at /tmp/TZNsEzHoR4:1â�¤------> [32m<BOL>[33mâ��[31mi agree, moritz, it is[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        statement listâ�¤        prefix or…»
20:53 timotimo ....
20:54 timotimo i may not get around to fixing the things today
20:57 moritz that should have fixed all the roast failures on rakudo-parrot
21:01 masak moritz++
21:01 colomon joined #perl6
21:03 dalek rakudo-star-daily: b145799 | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
21:03 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
21:03 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/b145799c19
21:03 dalek perl6-roast-data: 6a9874a | coke++ | / (6 files):
21:03 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
21:03 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/6a9874ab7e
21:09 abnorman joined #perl6
21:13 japhb [Coke]: What's the current limitation for rakudo-moar; is it waiting on something fundamental like Test.pm?
21:13 FROGGS japhb: it has to built on his box
21:13 moritz compiling the setting reliably :-)
21:14 japhb ah, ouch.
21:14 moritz it still segfaults occasionally on my box
21:17 kivutar joined #perl6
21:20 timotimo the more optimize, the more segfault :P
21:45 dalek rakudo/moar-support: a7d0609 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/moar/ModuleLoaderVMConfig.nqp:
21:45 dalek rakudo/moar-support: push PREFIX/languages/perl6/lib to INC
21:45 dalek rakudo/moar-support: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a7d0609352
21:47 dalek rakudo/moar_libpaths: 2393288 | (Tobias Leich)++ | tools/build/ (2 files):
21:47 dalek rakudo/moar_libpaths: pass several --libpath options
21:47 dalek rakudo/moar_libpaths: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/23932887ff
21:57 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
21:57 [Coke] most recent build didn't even build nqp
21:58 [Coke] I've had it build the setting, but segfault generating Test.pm. I've had it generate Test.pm, but have it fail to find the Test.moarvm file that was right there.
21:58 [Coke] Pretty sure the max of 8 passing tests were ones that did a print "ok 1" manually.
21:59 japhb nodnod
21:59 dalek rakudo/moar-support: 53d88fb | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/core/terms.pm:
21:59 dalek rakudo/moar-support: use PREFIX for use in e.g. %*CUSTOM_LIB<perl>
21:59 dalek rakudo/moar-support: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/53d88fbdd1
22:00 dalek rakudo/moar_libpaths: 53d88fb | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/core/terms.pm:
22:00 dalek rakudo/moar_libpaths: use PREFIX for use in e.g. %*CUSTOM_LIB<perl>
22:00 dalek rakudo/moar_libpaths: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/53d88fbdd1
22:00 dalek rakudo/moar_libpaths: 3fb7165 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/core/terms.pm:
22:00 dalek rakudo/moar_libpaths: Merge branch 'moar-support' of github.com:rakudo/rakudo into moar_libpaths
22:00 dalek rakudo/moar_libpaths: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3fb71655fc
22:01 xenoterracide joined #perl6
22:02 btyler [Coke]: yeah, I've been trying to get rakudo to build with a moar backend every few days since I heard that 'hello world' had happened, but no joy yet. often due to being unable to find libs (sometimes images, sometimes .moarvm files)
22:03 * masak should try to build Rakudo on Moar, too
22:03 * lizmat quietly fades away
22:04 masak I guess I should try to build from the moar-supprt branch, huh?
22:04 FROGGS btyler: you are on a mac?
22:04 FROGGS masak: yes
22:04 btyler FROGGS: yes
22:04 masak ok, it's a deal. :)
22:04 FROGGS masak: moarvm and nqp master
22:05 dagurval rj: say await start { fail "hello" }
22:05 camelia rakudo-jvm 174727: OUTPUT«Could not find symbol '&Return'␤  in method result at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:17253␤␤»
22:05 FROGGS masak: if you are going to do --gen-moar/--gen-nqp, pass =master to both
22:05 dagurval it's not ok to fail inside start?
22:06 masak FROGGS: oki
22:06 masak thank you.
22:07 dalek rakudo/nom: 9487aba | moritz++ | / (3 files):
22:07 dalek rakudo/nom: introduce EVAL
22:07 dalek rakudo/nom:
22:07 dalek rakudo/nom: this mostly duplicates the code, because calling something that introspects
22:07 dalek rakudo/nom: its caller is a bit icky
22:07 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9487abaa10
22:08 btyler FROGGS: is there a known problem under OSX? I'm happy to be remote hands if I can help get the install process smoothed out
22:08 dalek Net--IRC/concurrency: b465b82 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | docs/concurrency.pod:
22:08 dalek Net--IRC/concurrency: Concurrency doc, part 1: design constraint brain dump
22:08 dalek Net--IRC/concurrency: review: https://github.com/TiMBuS/​Net--IRC/commit/b465b82c6e
22:09 dmol joined #perl6
22:09 masak heh. I still haven't bought the arguments behind eval being so special it needs to be put on the same shelf as BEGIN and TOP. but other people seem to think it is, so...
22:10 FROGGS btyler: I can't remember how the state is... but IIRC nwc is compiling (and debugging) it on a mac
22:10 masak buth BEGIN and TOP are all-caps because they are called *outside* of the normal control flow. &eval isn't.
22:10 japhb masak: It does, however, introduce a new compunit, which is rather special.
22:11 moritz also, it accesses lexicals without being subject to static analysis
22:11 FROGGS btyler: though it would help if you could paste gists (for building moarvm, nqp and rakudo)
22:12 btyler FROGGS: ok, happy to do so.
22:12 btyler I'll start fresh
22:12 FROGGS btyler: thank you :o)
22:12 * moritz has the impression that the NQP makefile for moarvm misses a few dependencies
22:13 masak japhb: yes, but so does 'use'.
22:13 moritz consistency would make use capitalize that also
22:14 FROGGS and REQUIRE
22:14 moritz but aesthetics contradicts
22:14 FROGGS and NEED
22:14 moritz NEED is actually more special than REQUIRE
22:14 moritz wait, IMPORT is
22:14 FROGGS IF YOU SAY SO :o)
22:14 masak all I'm really getting from that discussion is "eval is so weird we should upper-case it".
22:14 FROGGS masak: that is my understanding
22:14 masak but again, I may have missed the finer points.
22:15 BenGoldberg Spelling use as USE would feel a little odd ;)
22:15 * FROGGS .oO( maybe I should uppercase all my code? )
22:15 segomos_ why aren't you doing that already?
22:16 FROGGS maybe my code is not weird enough
22:16 dagurval you're code is pretty special :)
22:16 dagurval your*
22:16 masak BenGoldberg: spelling eval as EVAL will feel a little odd ;)
22:16 segomos_ perl6 should be case insensitive
22:16 moritz it feels a bit uc
22:16 BenGoldberg If you're renaming eval to EVAL, shouldn't you deprecate the old, lower-case, name?
22:17 * moritz shoots a missle at segomos_
22:17 segomos_ haha
22:17 btyler segomos_: like PHP? :P stR_rePLAce()
22:17 moritz BenGoldberg: yes, after the next release
22:17 masak gOOd nIghT, #pERl6
22:17 BenGoldberg segmomos_, Like windows?
22:18 moritz goOD nIGht mAsAK, aND dreAm of UC/lC
22:18 FROGGS gnight masak
22:18 * BenGoldberg seems to be experiencing a bit of lag. :(
22:18 segomos_ i really don't like using case insensitive languages fwiw
22:19 moritz SQL!!!
22:20 segomos_ seLECt staR
22:20 * moritz remebers his interactions with firebird, which requires that unquoted identifiers be upper-cased, and is case sensitive for quoted identifiers
22:21 moritz I wonder what state of mind one has to be in to come up with such rules
22:21 dalek rakudo/nom: a772146 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (2 files):
22:21 dalek rakudo/nom: Mark eval() and .eval as DEPRECATED
22:21 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a77214681e
22:24 segomos_ really, really high
22:28 dalek roast: 0215ddd | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S02-types/deprecations.t:
22:28 dalek roast: Test for eval() and .eval deprecation
22:28 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/0215ddd47b
22:29 * lizmat fades away some more
22:37 thou joined #perl6
22:38 jnthn Well, another special thing about eval...uh...EVAL is we'll make optimization calls based on its presence, or more importantly lack thereof...
22:40 lue hello world o/
22:41 BenGoldberg IIRC, in lisp, and unquoted identifiers are automatically uppercased... you could use some sort of quotes (I think it was |like this|) if you wanted a lower- or mixed-case identifier.
22:41 dagurval that's another argument "from a compiler perspective". As a perl6 user, I don't really care :).
22:42 lue masak: if nothing else, EVAL forces you to press an extra key, which gives you extra time to reconsider :)
22:43 timotimo at least i reached home now
22:43 FROGGS the same reason MONKEY_TYPING is written that way
22:43 BenGoldberg As a perl6 user, I would expect an all-capital builtin to do something particularly magical... what's so magical about eval?
22:43 timotimo moritz: couldn't you just turn eval into a macro that calls EVAL? :)
22:43 timotimo er, not calls, but turns into a call to *
22:46 dalek Net--IRC/concurrency: 80daed5 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | docs/concurrency.pod:
22:46 dalek Net--IRC/concurrency: More concurrency design constraints, start roughing conceptual design
22:46 dalek Net--IRC/concurrency: review: https://github.com/TiMBuS/​Net--IRC/commit/80daed56f6
22:46 btyler FROGGS: here's plain MoarVM from clone to ./moar: https://gist.github.com/kanat​ohodets/f2fb1656ae28cc63246b and here's nqp with --gen-moar=master: https://gist.github.com/kanat​ohodets/c5f48f7b76bb31e26c4b
22:47 timotimo moritz: i started a band :P   https://twitter.com/loltimo​/status/417302567236816897
23:02 MikeFair joined #perl6
23:05 segomos_ nice
23:06 erkan joined #perl6
23:06 erkan joined #perl6
23:13 dalek Net--IRC/concurrency: 814ac0e | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | docs/concurrency.pod:
23:13 dalek Net--IRC/concurrency: Expand discussion of per-dispatch subtasks; sketch out inch pebbles
23:13 dalek Net--IRC/concurrency: review: https://github.com/TiMBuS/​Net--IRC/commit/814ac0ecf7
23:15 * raydiak just heard a GEICO radio commercial advertising the presence of butterfly kisses on their website
23:15 jnthn japhb: ooh, concurrency stuffs :)
23:16 jnthn On EVAL vs eval, from a compiler analysis perspective it's just as easy for me to look for eval as it is to look for EVAL... :)
23:17 japhb jnthn: :-)  Yup, preparing to hack concurrency into Net--IRC.  Should be a trip.  :-)
23:18 jnthn I'd have been perfectly happy to leave it as eval, fwiw. Mostly I just wanted a spec declaration that I can look for the name "eval" being used in a scope - or more importantly, not being used in a scope - and assume therefore compile more efficiently when it's not around.
23:18 jnthn s/assume/
23:20 dalek nqp: ec3d6f7 | jonathan++ | src/vm/moar/stage0/ (11 files):
23:20 dalek nqp: Update MoarVM stage0 for SC WB op signature fixes.
23:20 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/ec3d6f77cc
23:21 dalek nqp: de19034 | jonathan++ | tools/build/MOAR_REVISION:
23:21 dalek nqp: Bump MOAR_REVISION.
23:21 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/de190343b5
23:22 jnthn Yay, the sometimes-segfault in make test is now gone on my laptop :)
23:23 FROGGS cool!
23:24 japhb W00t!
23:31 nwc10 so fingers point that this bug might have been the cause of that?
23:33 jnthn nwc10: Yeah, very much so
23:34 nwc10 right. rebuilding
23:34 nwc10 but compiling the setting with the current GC torture code takes about 2 hours, and sometimes SEGVs as that libuv bug is only fixed for Win32
23:34 nwc10 and we aren't even out of NQP yet...
23:37 btyler nwc10: FROGGS said you've had some success building nqp-m on osx? did you do any manual file schlepping, or just run the nqp Configure.pl with --backend=moar --gen-moar?
23:38 nwc10 manual patching of build/setup.pm to add what seems to be the correct dylib black magic in MoarVM to get libmoar.dylib to be found post install
23:38 nwc10 but I think that --static might be the answer
23:39 jnthn --static is the answer until you try to build the Rakudo extops...
23:39 lue r: say "4....A" ~~ / (<digit>) "."**{+$0} (<alpha>) /
23:39 nwc10 oh. pants
23:39 btyler ah ha, yeah, I was moving libmoar around to try to get it located, which got me a few more steps along, then figured I was doing something wrong
23:39 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/_Yl9U7TPbwâ�¤Block case of ** quantifier not yet implementedâ�¤at /tmp/_Yl9U7TPbw:1â�¤------> [32msay "4....A" ~~ / (<digit>) "."**[33mâ��[31m{+$0} (<alpha>) /[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤   …»
23:39 camelia ..rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/KfmA0a5l68â�¤Block case of ** quantifier not yet implementedâ�¤at /tmp/KfmA0a5l68:1â�¤------> [32msay "4....A" ~~ / (<digit>) "."**[33mâ��[31m{+$0} (<alpha>) /[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤      â€¦Â»
23:39 lue is there another way I can do that? A bare $0 does nothing :(
23:40 jnthn lue: The typical workaround is an assertion
23:42 lue I suppose I can emulate a while loop with <?{}> stuff...
23:43 lue (the ** stuff is being used to skip over stuff I don't care for, so I'd much rather not have to match against it specifically to get past it.)
23:48 rurban Trying to keep wikipedia Rakudo_Perl_6 alive. we need notable outside refs in the article. found one: http://www.linuxtoday.com/d​eveloper/2010073000835NWRL for the first star star release
23:50 rurban https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakudo_Perl_6
23:51 lue .oO(Not to be pedantic, but specialized perl refs ⊂ computing refs)
23:52 btyler wikipedia deletionists drive me nuts
23:53 jnthn wtf, do some people really having nothing better to do with their lives than suggest deletion of well-maintained articles? :/
23:53 rurban so what would be a good ref?
23:53 lue I'm half-tempted to correct him in passing on his sets mixup :)
23:54 jnthn I'm pretty sure there's been references in some printed magazines...
23:54 jnthn lichtkind may know more on that
23:55 rurban http://fyi.oreilly.com/2008/08/th​e-mind-of-damian-conway-scie.html has "could you explain the differences between Rakudo and Pugs?"
23:58 * lue searches for a Wikipedia policy that says it's OK to not have outside refs sometimes. That surely can't be a hard and fast rule in this world.
23:59 rurban I added now 2 notable outside refs: O'Reilly and Linux Today
23:59 FROGGS rurban++

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