Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2013-12-31

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:00 lue rurban++ Maybe it wouldn't hurt to add them to the Perl_6 page too? :)
00:00 rurban aah, one after another
00:01 lue ? did I accidentally unleash the specter of AfD on the main Perl 6 too?
00:01 rurban This is also a good one: http://www.infoworld.com/d/open-source/perl-creator-hints-imminent-release-long-awaited-perl-6-445
00:02 jnthn If conference talks also count as references, I'm sure many such things can be found.
00:02 rurban If major news outlets cite conference talks. yes. oscon usually
00:04 rurban https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl_6#Implementations needs to fix the "As of 2009 multiple Perl 6 implementations are under development, but none of them are considered "complete""
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00:21 japhb jnthn: The thing that most struck me about the AfD in question was that it was submitted on *Christmas*.  Talk about a Grinch!
00:21 rurban They count Keep vs Delete on this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Rakudo_Perl_6#Rakudo_Perl_6
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00:24 rurban https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:GNG
00:30 lue japhb: what struck me the most is that it seems as though there was no period of time with the "has unreliable 1st party sources" infobox on the page, the guy just went straight for the deletion.
00:31 lue His search for reliable sources may have turned up nothing, but it should have turned up a vibrant and alive community with possibly somebody who could improve the article.
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00:51 segomos_ to his credit it doesn't say he searched the internet (tm)
00:54 lue segomos_: "A search turns up nothing better." I realize it doesn't say "Internet", but I'm not sure what else he could have searched :)
00:55 segomos_ probably spun around in his chair and saw nothing in the room to remind him of perl 6 and smugly put the punctuation on that sentence, then called it a day
00:56 BenGoldberg Maybe he visited his library, and looked on the shelves.
00:57 lue Yeah, rurban showed us that it doesn't take that long to find something, if you're trying.
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01:01 lue But I'm a follower of WP:AGF, so I get the sense that he just simply missed the usable references.
01:01 * lue &
01:01 perigrin lue: he could have searched his sock drawer, or behind the couch, or "all the lands of azeroth"
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02:35 japhb preflex: ask jnthn What is the relative priority of async sockets in your start-of-year hacking queue?
02:35 preflex Consider it noted.
02:47 segomos_ his user page has been vandalized 9 times
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03:01 finanalyst r: class A { has $.a is default(2) }; my A $x.=new(); say  $x
03:01 camelia rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/dRDCXLRf8nâ�¤Can't use unknown trait 'is default' in an attribute declaration.â�¤at /tmp/dRDCXLRf8n:1â�¤------> â�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        rwâ�¤        readonlyâ�¤        box_targetâ�¤Â»
03:01 camelia ..rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/De4jMdifW8â�¤Can't use unknown trait 'is default' in an attribute declaration.â�¤at /tmp/De4jMdifW8:1â�¤------> â�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        rwâ�¤        readonlyâ�¤        box_targetâ�¤Â»
03:01 * lue wonders who Bitasc is, and why they apparently created an account just to leave an unhelpful comment.
03:03 finanalyst hello anyone. I was looking at 'is default'. Tried using it in a class. Got compile error. Is this a bug or spec?
03:03 finanalyst class A {has $.a is rw = 3; }
03:04 lue finanalyst: is that 'rw' supposed to be 'default'?
03:04 finanalyst r: class A {has $.x is default(2)}
03:05 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/bfqZjBm9uiâ�¤Can't use unknown trait 'is default' in an attribute declaration.â�¤at /tmp/bfqZjBm9ui:1â�¤------> â�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        rwâ�¤        readonlyâ�¤        box_targetâ�¤Â»
03:05 camelia ..rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/huobjP7UBiâ�¤Can't use unknown trait 'is default' in an attribute declaration.â�¤at /tmp/huobjP7UBi:1â�¤------> â�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        rwâ�¤        readonlyâ�¤        box_targetâ�¤Â»
03:05 lue r: class A {has $!x is default(2)}
03:05 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tgbDnl0Bwwâ�¤Can't use unknown trait 'is default' in an attribute declaration.â�¤at /tmp/tgbDnl0Bww:1â�¤------> â�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        rwâ�¤        readonlyâ�¤        box_targetâ�¤Â»
03:05 camelia ..rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/QGFLmPbACJâ�¤Can't use unknown trait 'is default' in an attribute declaration.â�¤at /tmp/QGFLmPbACJ:1â�¤------> â�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        rwâ�¤        readonlyâ�¤        box_targetâ�¤Â»
03:07 finanalyst r: class A {has $.a is rw = 2}; my A $x.=new(:a(4)); say $x; $x.a=Nil; say $x
03:07 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214, rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«A.new(a => 4)␤A.new(a => Any)␤»
03:07 lue r: class A {has $.a = 2}; my A $x.=new(:a(4)); say $x; $x.a=Nil; say $x
03:07 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«A.new(a => 4)␤Cannot assign to a readonly variable or a value␤  in block  at /tmp/MEyZkTSipE:1␤␤»
03:07 camelia ..rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«A.new(a => 4)␤Cannot assign to a readonly variable or a value␤␤»
03:08 finanalyst so setting an attribute with = in a clase definition is not the same as a default because assigning Nil to the attribute does not return it to default
03:08 lue Huh. I'd've thought public attrs would be rw by default. (May be I'm thinking in old-Perl-6 terms)
03:09 finanalyst attr are ro by default according to spec
03:09 lue finanalyst: yeah, I'm thinking is default should work there, can't recall if it's specced to do so though.
03:09 lue Like I said, my mind could possibly be expecting older-spec'd behavior or something on the rw attrs front.
03:10 finanalyst lue: that's why I tried assigning Nil to a rw. If spec indicates default behaviour, currently thats not happening
03:10 BenGoldberg r: my $a is default 2; say $a; $a = 3; say $a; $a = Nil; say $a;
03:10 camelia rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/Q7FvROSxlMâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/Q7FvROSxlM:1â�¤------> [32mmy $a is default [33mâ��[31m2; say $a; $a = 3; say $a; $a = Nil; say[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        scoped declaratorâ�¤â€¦Â»
03:10 camelia ..rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tE3DsDNlh5â�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/tE3DsDNlh5:1â�¤------> [32mmy $a is default [33mâ��[31m2; say $a; $a = 3; say $a; $a = Nil; say[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        scoped declarator…»
03:10 BenGoldberg r: my $a is default(2); say $a; $a = 3; say $a; $a = Nil; say $a;
03:10 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214, rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«2␤3␤2␤»
03:21 finanalyst i just filed a rakudobug
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04:22 * lue likes how some of the POD synopses have Pod6 brainos :)  [see html output of S32::IO]
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04:31 BenGoldberg r: say sqrt(-1.0)
04:31 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214, rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
04:31 BenGoldberg r: say i
04:31 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214, rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«0+1i␤»
04:31 BenGoldberg Why does sqrt(-1) not produce i?
04:32 BenGoldberg r: say sqrt(1+0i)
04:32 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214, rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«1+0i␤»
04:32 BenGoldberg r: say sqrt(-1+0i)
04:32 camelia rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«6.123233995736766E-17+1i␤»
04:32 camelia ..rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«6.12323399573677e-17+1i␤»
04:32 BenGoldberg Hmm, nevermind, I think I see :)
04:33 BenGoldberg r: say one(i,-i)
04:33 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214, rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«one(0+1i, -0-1i)␤»
04:35 BenGoldberg It would be interesting if sqrt produced a superposition of the roots... but it would probably be confusing for those who don't expect it ;)
04:36 BenGoldberg r: say one(i,-1)**2
04:36 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«one(-1+1.22464679914735e-16i, 1)␤»
04:36 camelia ..rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«one(-1+1.2246467991473532E-16i, 1)␤»
04:36 BenGoldberg r: say one(i,-i)**2
04:36 camelia rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«one(-1+1.2246467991473532E-16i, -1-1.2246467991473532E-16i)␤»
04:36 camelia ..rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«one(-1+1.22464679914735e-16i, -1-1.22464679914735e-16i)␤»
04:40 TimToady as with FatRats, we don't let people fall accidentally into the domain of Complex arithmetic
04:41 lue BenGoldberg: I think the idea is that we assume you meant +√ and not the two-answers cases of √
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04:47 grondilu If I want to augment Perl6 grammar in a program, I have to write an advanced macro (when they are implemented)?  Or is there an other way?
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09:36 masak good antenoon, #perl6
09:37 timotimo hello masak :)
09:37 lizmat good antenoon to you too, masak, timotimo
09:37 masak and a fine antenoon it is
09:37 FROGGS hi all
09:38 masak lue: re http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-12-30#i_8053985 -- yes, &eval can be misused. but so can roles, or addition, or for loops.
09:39 masak I feel there's a bit of "Goto considered harmful"-style stigmatization of &eval going on, with not that much substance behind the arguments.
09:40 masak that is, the GOTO instruction *was* indeed worse than the more modern structured alternatives, as indeed &eval is worse than many alternatives.
09:40 lizmat I think it is a good thing, since eval in p6 is only similar to p5's eval on first look
09:40 masak how so?
09:40 lizmat because p5's eval has an implicit try
09:41 masak well, you're not wrong.
09:41 lizmat so, most p5ers would use eval to test stuff, rather than execute code in strings specifically
09:41 masak still not cause for uppercasing, if you ask me.
09:41 masak uppercasing yells "outside of the normal control flow!"
09:41 masak &
09:41 FROGGS masak: then we should lowercase MONKEY_TYPING
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10:19 timotimo i'd like to have a flag for fudgeandrun to use something different than ./perl6
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10:24 FROGGS an environment var like PERL6_EXE?
10:25 FROGGS one of these scripts already has something like that
10:26 timotimo maybe
10:56 timotimo jnthn: if we have a callmethod on a WVal, do we have to analyze more than "is the method name constant and does the metaobject have a weird find_method"?
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11:38 timotimo our optimizer would need to be cleverer to try to inline method ACCEPTS of Regex, as it uses getlexrelcaller; it'd have to turn that into ... getlex? getlexrel?
11:39 carlin rakudo: my $nzst = 13 * 60 * 60; say DateTime.now().in-timezone($nzst).truncated-to(day);
11:39 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214, rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«2014-01-01T00:00:00+1300␤»
11:41 dalek nqp: 41debf4 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/moar/ModuleLoader.nqp:
11:41 dalek nqp: add nqp language diretory to search path
11:41 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/41debf4170
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11:52 FROGGS btw, robot turtles is le awesome! we got our game a few days ago
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12:02 timotimo the link to the kickstarter is already pink on my browser :)
12:03 dalek rakudo/moar_libpaths: c1479ce | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/core/IO/Spec/Unix.pm:
12:03 dalek rakudo/moar_libpaths: Str.match should be cheaper as Str ~~ Regex
12:03 dalek rakudo/moar_libpaths:
12:03 dalek rakudo/moar_libpaths: And it has the nice sideeffet that the former works on MoarVM.
12:03 dalek rakudo/moar_libpaths: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c1479ce86c
12:03 timotimo s/" as "/" than "/
12:04 dalek rakudo/moar_libpaths: a34b786 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/moar/ModuleLoaderVMConfig.nqp:
12:04 dalek rakudo/moar_libpaths: pull in a cheat from vm/parrot
12:04 dalek rakudo/moar_libpaths: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a34b786669
12:04 FROGGS timotimo: yeah... braino
12:04 timotimo :)
12:06 dalek rakudo/moar_libpaths: 03d85d1 | (Tobias Leich)++ | tools/build/Makefile-Moar.in:
12:06 dalek rakudo/moar_libpaths: install nqp modules to languages/nqp/lib
12:06 dalek rakudo/moar_libpaths: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/03d85d136c
12:07 arnsholt timotimo: At least it was just a commit message braino and not, say, a compile-breaking braino =)
12:07 timotimo yeah. i have more of the latter than of the former :P
12:08 arnsholt I think I've only one compile-breaker, but that was pretty embarassing =)
12:08 arnsholt (But it could be I've just repressed the memories of all my other compile-breakers =)
12:08 FROGGS IMPORTANT NOTE TO EVERYONE: you need to whipe <prefix>/install/languages/perl6/lib/Perl6/*.moarvm when the moar_libpath branch gets merged
12:08 timotimo i need a way to return a () from before &infix:<,> is defined >_<
12:08 FROGGS hehe
12:08 timotimo maybe i can just stub it really early?
12:10 FROGGS if I am lucky I can run v5 stuff now
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12:23 FROGGS looks like I'd need p6reprname now :/
12:31 moritz timotimo: Parcel.new ?
12:32 timotimo maybe. and stub class Parcel before the first else-less if? :P
12:34 FROGGS bbl &
12:34 timotimo oh, but maybe Parcel is in BOOTSTRAP
12:39 moritz I'm pretty sure it is
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13:11 masak hi from a train \o
13:12 masak er, I mean "hi! from... a TRAIN!" :D
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13:18 * masak attempts to build Rakudo-on-Moar
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13:22 moritz masak: and if you do python, it's "SNAKES ON A TRAIN" :-)
13:23 masak :P
13:23 masak no python today.
13:23 timotimo will you get back to python some time?
13:24 masak but I did read up on the Snake Lemma.
13:24 masak timotimo: that's likely, as I teach various courses, some of them Python courses.
13:24 masak when I dove into Python earlier this year, I was surprised at how similar the Perl and Python communities seem.
13:25 masak any animosity between the two camps is really rather silly.
13:25 colomon masak: yes, but they like snakes.
13:25 colomon ;)
13:26 colomon we like butterflies and camels.
13:26 timotimo an empty parcel is immutable, no?
13:26 timotimo i think at some point, Parcel.new() without arguments could be optimized to return a globally shared empty parcel
13:27 timotimo probably not worth terribly much, especially given sink context etc.
13:27 timotimo hm, i wonder ...
13:27 masak colomon: Guido actually fought the association between Python-the-language and Python-the-snake for years. he squarely intended Python-the-comedy-group.
13:27 colomon masak: I never knew!
13:27 masak colomon: but then some O'Reilly book came out, with a big fat snake on the cover. and he kind of gave in.
13:27 colomon Guido++
13:28 masak nowadays the mascot/icon is even a cute stylized snake.
13:28 masak so Perl 5 has camels, Perl 6 has butterflies, Python has cute snakes, and Ruby has, er, um, foxes shouting "chunky bacon!"
13:29 timotimo i really like the current python logo
13:29 timotimo FWIW, the o'reilly book really should have had a really big foot on its cover
13:29 masak yeah.
13:30 timotimo Method 'eew' not found for invocant of class 'QAST::WVal'
13:32 masak ;)
13:34 * colomon has chunky bacon cooking in the oven.
13:35 timotimo Nominal type check failed for parameter '%attrinit'; expected Associative but got Hash instead
13:35 timotimo ...   not sure what i'm doing wrong?
13:36 timotimo too early for Hash to be marked to be doing Associative?
13:37 timotimo i suppose else-less ifs appear very early in the setting ...
13:40 masak else-less ifs? why would they participate in the circularity dance at all? :)
13:40 masak they're a grammatical/actionable feature rather than a setting feature...
13:41 timotimo they are supposed to return (), they currently return Nil
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13:57 * masak .oO( we're Nilists. we don't parcel *anything* )
13:57 * masak .oO( the Nil is not a river in Egypt )
13:58 * masak .oO( Jack and Jane went up the Nil )
13:58 masak Jill*
14:02 masak hm, or "Jack and Nil went up a hill, but once there Jack found himself all alone"
14:04 timotimo no, Nil no longer flattens to an empty list in list context
14:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: 2393288 | (Tobias Leich)++ | tools/build/ (2 files):
14:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: pass several --libpath options
14:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/23932887ff
14:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: 3fb7165 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/core/terms.pm:
14:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: Merge branch 'moar-support' of github.com:rakudo/rakudo into moar_libpaths
14:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3fb71655fc
14:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: c1479ce | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/core/IO/Spec/Unix.pm:
14:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: Str.match should be cheaper as Str ~~ Regex
14:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support:
14:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: And it has the nice sideeffet that the former works on MoarVM.
14:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c1479ce86c
14:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: a34b786 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/moar/ModuleLoaderVMConfig.nqp:
14:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: pull in a cheat from vm/parrot
14:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a34b786669
14:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: 03d85d1 | (Tobias Leich)++ | tools/build/Makefile-Moar.in:
14:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: install nqp modules to languages/nqp/lib
14:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/03d85d136c
14:07 masak timotimo: oh, ok. then there's still two of them.
14:07 * masak .oO( Nil -- the artist formerly known as the empty list )
14:08 FROGGS >.<
14:08 * timotimo tries his luck at some grocery shopping
14:08 FROGGS p: ::('formerly known as prince') # :P
14:08 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«No such symbol 'formerly known as prince'␤current instr.: 'throw' pc 410302 (src/gen/p-CORE.setting.pir:171896) (gen/parrot/CORE.setting:10737)␤called from Sub 'sink' pc 446395 (src/gen/p-CORE.setting.pir:185119) (gen/parrot/CORE.setting:12127)␤cal…»
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14:21 masak $ ./perl6-p -e 'say "OH HAI"'
14:21 masak OH HAI
14:21 masak \o/
14:21 masak er, wait.
14:21 masak it's perl6-m I want.
14:21 FROGGS *g*
14:21 masak $ ./perl6-m -e 'say "OH HAI"'
14:21 masak OH HAI
14:21 masak moar: 3rdparty/libuv/src/unix/loop.c:150: uv__loop_delete: Assertion `!((((*(&(loop)->active_reqs))[0]) == (&(loop)->active_reqs)) == 0)' failed.
14:21 masak Aborted
14:21 masak er, \o/
14:21 FROGGS sort of, yeah
14:21 masak and also a bit of /o\
14:22 FROGGS the uv__loop... thing is due to an unclean shutdown
14:22 masak eew
14:22 masak anyway, 's a bit cool that it workz.
14:22 masak ish.
14:23 FROGGS it should be a heisenfail, it might work if you run it again
14:25 masak trying again.
14:25 masak worked this time \o/
14:25 masak ok, here goes some spectesting.
14:26 masak er, maybe 'make test' first...
14:27 masak all sanity tests pass. wow.
14:31 masak ok, so there are some spectest failures...
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14:36 FROGGS sure, many things are implemented just to "get further"
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14:42 timotimo i'm not sure how coercion methods are supposed to be implemented with decent performance
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14:43 masak timotimo: please elaborate. what's difficult to implement performantly?
14:44 timotimo subset Even of Int where * %% 2; say 100.Even;
14:44 timotimo otherwise, class MyFoo { method Even { ... } }
14:44 timotimo we can't know anything except handwavey hopes during compile-time about methods
14:48 timotimo i *guess* it'd be implemented as a fallback?
14:48 masak ugh. troo.
14:48 timotimo or maybe every subset installs a role on Any? :)
14:48 masak picturing the lookup as MI *and* roles are taken into account...
14:49 masak yeah, that's going to have perf repercussions.
14:49 masak suddenly everything is potentially a coercion.
14:49 timotimo well, only things with capital initial letters
14:49 masak &
14:49 masak what about 'class even {}' ?
14:49 timotimo nobody would create a lowercase class and except it to work with coercion methods
14:50 timotimo document it with a big bright sign saying "don't you ever write your methods with capital letters"
14:50 timotimo btw, the lookup is also dependent on the lexical scope
14:50 timotimo so it's even more fun
14:51 timotimo also, do we allow my \Foobar := Str; 123.Foobar?
14:52 FROGGS perl6-m -e 'say 1.^name'
14:52 FROGGS Int
14:52 FROGGS \o/
14:53 dalek rakudo/moar-support: da234d3 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/moar/ (2 files):
14:53 dalek rakudo/moar-support: implement p6reprname
14:53 dalek rakudo/moar-support: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/da234d3872
14:54 FROGGS timotimo: should be \Foobar := &Str if Str would be a sub
14:54 timotimo er
14:54 FROGGS can't imagine the method form would do
14:54 timotimo i did mean the Str class
14:54 timotimo not a sub by the same name
14:55 FROGGS p: my $foo = "Str"; say 123.$foo
14:55 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«No such method 'postcircumfix:<( )>' for invocant of type 'Str'␤  in any  at gen/parrot/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1687␤  in any  at gen/parrot/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1669␤  in block  at /tmp/bQLWDUaRBT:1␤␤»
14:55 FROGGS p: my $foo = "Str"; say 123."$foo"
14:55 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/PoDp6ug4u4�Quoted method name requires parenthesized arguments. If you meant to concatenate two strings, use '~'.�at /tmp/PoDp6ug4u4:1�------> [32mmy $foo = "Str"; say 123."$foo"[33m�[3…»
14:55 FROGGS p: my $foo = "Str"; say 123.("$foo")
14:55 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«No such method 'postcircumfix:<( )>' for invocant of type 'Int'␤  in any  at gen/parrot/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1687␤  in any  at gen/parrot/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1669␤  in block  at /tmp/FoUh9_7D1J:1␤␤»
14:55 timotimo no, you've missed the important part of the discussion
14:55 FROGGS p: my $foo = "Str"; say 123."$foo"()
14:55 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«123␤»
14:55 timotimo this is about coercion methods
14:55 FROGGS this?
14:55 timotimo this discussion
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15:47 * smls skims through doc.perl6.org/language/operators
15:48 smls What are some real-life use cases for infix:<but> ?
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15:51 arnsholt Similar to infix:<does>, but sometimes you can't alter an object directly since it may break other code's expectations
15:52 ajr joined #perl6
15:55 smls Is there a rosettacode example or something that uses 'but' or 'does'?
15:57 smls It seems cool, but I can't relate it to any concrete programming needs from my Perl 5 experience.
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16:04 FROGGS smls: one example is to mix in a role Cache to a variable, that computes something and stashes it... and later you check that an object does that role, and you take the cached value
16:05 FROGGS we do that with regexes internally
16:11 smls I see
16:12 FROGGS so everywhere where you want to attach another bit of information or behaviour this is a nice approach
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18:32 TimToady preflex: tell smls Did you ever use "0 but true" in Perl 5?  In Perl 6 you don't need to trick it; you can say 0 but True to get a numeric value of 0 that evaluates to True in boolean context
18:32 preflex Consider it noted.
18:41 * masak nods politely to #perl6
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18:53 lee__ should (0 but True).perl include "but True"? currently it just shows 0
18:53 FROGGS as I understand it .perl should be round trip safe
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18:57 TimToady maybe 'but' should add a .perl derived method
18:57 TimToady that wraps the base method
18:58 TimToady hard to know what to put in the general case, though, kinda like the problems with Routine.perl
18:58 TimToady one is tempted to just wrap the original source text
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19:00 masak p: sub foo {}; my $bar = &foo but role { method perl { "{callsame} but this anon role" } }; say $bar
19:00 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«sub+{<anon>} foo() { ... } but this anon role␤»
19:00 masak \o/
19:06 masak the most profound thing I've learned in category theory so far is that the whole of relational algebra can be reduced to three functors, ∆ (DUP/DEL), Σ (UNION), and Π (JOIN/SELECT), and that ∆ is a left adjunct of Σ, and Π is a right adjunct of Σ.
19:06 masak that's, like, a serious reduction of concepts into something extremely small.
19:07 * lue should learn category theory in detail some time.
19:09 lue I know it's a bunch of dots and the arrows that connect them, but that's it :)
19:15 TimToady if it's that simple, they should teach it in grade school :)
19:16 masak it's that simple. that's why it's so bloody hard.
19:17 masak lue: in the back of my mind there are blog posts being written about category theory (with nice diagrams) being implemented in Perl 6.
19:17 skids joined #perl6
19:17 masak but that's gotta happen After t4 And The Rest of p6cc.
19:18 masak anyway. "dots and arrows" is a nice slogan. one thing that category theory hammers in is that set theory focuses too much on the dots, but the Interesting Stuff all happens in the arrows.
19:19 masak or put differently, No Dot Is An Island. a dot is defined by what other dots it knows.
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19:58 masak FROGGS: one of these days we're going to sit down and have an awesome talk about slangs.
19:59 * lue reserves a chair at that figurative table
19:59 FROGGS \o/
19:59 FROGGS I hope to get rid of my rakudo.patch file within that time too
20:03 masak FROGGS++ # http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2013/12/16/day-16-slangs/
20:03 masak FROGGS: minor nit: s/wether/whether/
20:03 FROGGS fixed, thanks :o)
20:07 lue I've got a couple questions IAre my concerns about changing a grammar rule but not the actions justified?
20:07 lue I've got a couple questions I'd like sorted out: Are my concerns about changing a grammar rule but not the actions justified?
20:08 masak wow, seems moritz++ won the popularity contest this year, with 4961 hits to his slot-23 post. :)
20:08 masak lue: what's the use case, in more detail?
20:08 lue And how do we reconcile the grammar+actions way of doing things with the  grammar rule { {inline action rule} }  way of doing things in slangs?
20:09 FROGGS[mobile] joined #perl6
20:09 lue masak: First terrible case out of my head: where someone wants to change the rule that parses the $ sigil to use ¢ instead.
20:10 lue I can't think of anything specific & likely at the moment, but I still think the general issue of desyncing the grammar and action parts hasn't been addressed, from what I've seen at least.
20:13 lue The issue really is with changing  token foo { <bar> (\d+) }  to  token foo { <.bar> [\d+] }  , and how to handle the lack of a change to the method foo that presumably uses those (once-)captured things.
20:19 masak lue: you're right -- discussion on slangs seems to talk about grammars, but not action classes.
20:20 masak historically, action classes Came Much Later.
20:20 lue masak: yes. Action classes used to be embedded { make } closures. I remember being surprised to learn from TimToady that action classes stole the make term from inlined grammar blocks.
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20:21 masak clearly action methods are quite strongly tied to a particular grammar.
20:22 masak not just the corresponding grammar rule, but (implicitly) the whole rest of the grammar, too.
20:22 * lue tries to find his old slangs gist...
20:22 masak and one grammar can surely have several action classes -- which is definitely nice -- but I struggle to see the converse happening.
20:22 masak ...by anything else than fantastic coincidence.
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20:23 FROGGS[mobile] our sprintf has two action classes btw
20:23 lue grammar->actions is definitely one-to-one or one-to-many, and not many-to-one (unless you try *really hard* that is)
20:23 masak which is wonderful, and What I Said.
20:24 lue 8mo-old gist with some of these thoughts: https://gist.github.com/lue/5241230
20:24 lue (the "! NOTICE: ignore the below section !" comes from when I learned of the embedded { make } blocks)
20:27 FROGGS[mobile] I can imagine to have a single action class for a JSON grammar and a YAML grammar
20:27 lue r: say $&say;
20:27 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214, rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«sub say() { ... }␤»
20:28 lue so that twigil idea is bust :)
20:28 FROGGS[mobile] or other very related things, like different versions ob a grammar that should be supported at the same time
20:31 lue FROGGS[mobile]: I think the main issue with many-to-one is that it'd be quite fragile, moreso than one-to-many. (Because actions are dependent on grammars, but not the other way 'round)
20:31 FROGGS[mobile] true
20:32 lue Not saying you can't (or shouldn't) do it, just that you have to be *really careful* if you're going to do it. :)
20:35 masak that goes without saying :)
20:36 * masak .oO( Honey, I Shrunk The Grammar )
20:38 lue I think we can all agree that the Actions half of things hasn't really been considered yet, and how to factor that into the current thinking around slangs should be Very Interesting™.
20:40 FROGGS[mobile] I'd love to see "slang" as a first class keyword but I have no (good) ideas beyond that
20:41 lue And I think augment/supersede shouldn't have magically different meanings for slangs as well :)
20:41 FROGGS[mobile] because to me a slang is a collection of a grammar, an action class, a moduleloader and the slang's name
20:41 FROGGS[mobile] dunno how to bundle that nicely
20:42 * lue wonders how much of his dislike for the current speccing of augment and supersede are caused by a lack of support in rakudo.
20:42 lue Well, the moduleloader isn't inherently part of a slang (cf. the quoting and regex languages)
20:42 masak we know from experience that the only way to get a handle on these things is to implement them and see what works and what doesn't.
20:42 masak that's why FROGGS++ is the hero here.
20:43 lue FROGGS++ indeed.
20:43 masak he's doing slangs in Rakudo before slangs really exist in Rakudo.
20:43 FROGGS[mobile] lue: the ML is optional, yes
20:44 FROGGS[mobile] :o)
20:44 lue maybe treating 'slang' as a super-container of sorts, in which you place a grammar and actions, would better fit the wildly expanded role of how languages work now?
20:45 lue something 'package' or 'module'-like in those respects.
20:45 FROGGS[mobile] it is a fun (and never ending) task, and I dont wanna swap it... (not even for an iphone)
20:46 FROGGS[mobile] it is just sad that we have nothing like such a collection... so we cant borrow ideas
20:47 lue FROGGS: that just means we get to be pioneers :D
20:47 lue 2014: The year of, like, slangs or whatever, man.
20:48 FROGGS[mobile] yeah, but it should feel as if it belongs to Perl :o)
20:51 FROGGS[mobile] slang Foo { parser Bar { }; action Baz { } }
20:52 FROGGS[mobile] what I'd like too if you could have a single thing that would be a token and an action method at the same time
20:53 pmichaud_ good afternoon, #perl6
20:53 FROGGS[mobile] but this wont end up good I guess
20:53 moritz FROGGS[mobile]: token integer { \d+ { make +$/ } }
20:53 FROGGS[mobile] Hi pmichaud
20:53 moritz good pm, pm
20:53 lue FROGGS[mobile]: feature foo { grammar } { action }  :P
20:54 FROGGS[mobile] moritz: no, that is ugly... somehow
20:54 FROGGS[mobile] but maybe the sanest
20:54 pmichaud Happy New Year to all :)
20:54 FROGGS[mobile] Happy new year :o)
20:55 moritz happy new year to everybody!
20:55 * moritz sick
20:55 pmichaud somehow "collection of grammar, action class, module loader, and name" doesn't sound like "slang" to me.  Feels more like a "culture" or "fad".  :-)
20:56 pmichaud i.e., at some point it's more than just language/syntax and starts including behavior and social norms :)
20:56 masak happy new year, pm/everybody! \o/
20:56 masak moritz: get well soon(tm)
20:56 lue :) +1 for renaming an expanded slang keyword.
20:56 pmichaud Hope you get to feeling better soon, moritz...   I caught something late last week that was No Fun on Friday and Saturday.
20:57 lue .oO( counterculture Foo { ... } )
20:57 pmichaud alt.lang.perl6 Foo  :-)
20:57 FROGGS[mobile] hehe
20:57 lue Only if you want to be tied down to using the JVM :P
20:58 pmichaud oh, I'm pretty sure that comp.lang.* and alt.* predate the JVM :)
20:58 moritz thanks masak and pmichaud
20:58 lue I'm aware, I was making fun of JVM's domains.reversed
20:59 geekosaur bring back JANet?
21:02 pmichaud OMG I love http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2013/12/24/advent-ventures/ !!   TimToady++
21:02 masak it's wonderful.
21:08 lue I can't help but wonder what TimToady would write if he wasn't pushed to do something :)
21:08 pmichaud "Nothing."
21:08 moritz puns.
21:08 pmichaud Everything TimToady writes is a pun at some level.  :-P
21:09 masak I hear eve
21:09 masak I hear even his nick is a pun.
21:12 pmichaud Anyone know of any europe-based perl6-ish events taking place in the March 2014 timeframe?
21:14 colomon TimToady++ indeed
21:15 masak pmichaud: the PLPW, but it's in May. http://act.yapc.eu/plpw2014/
21:15 pmichaud hmmm.  I should put that on my calendar.
21:15 * masak will try to be there
21:15 pmichaud I only did one perl event in 2013 (yapc::na) and I need more.
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21:16 pmichaud I still have yet to make it to a dutch perl workshop.  :-/
21:17 pmichaud oooh, or maybe the QA Hackathon in Lyon :)
21:18 FROGGS the german perl workshop will take place in march... though I think there will be just about 50 to 80 ppl
21:19 pmichaud size of workshop isn't the key thing -- mainly it's whoever else might be in attendance :-)
21:19 FROGGS I hope jnthn will come
21:19 pmichaud yes, jnthn++ tops my list :)
21:19 FROGGS he said he might be interested
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21:30 pmichaud I'm afk again -- Happy (and safe!) New Year to everyone
21:30 masak pmichaud: \o
21:31 dagurval rp: sub a is DEPRECATED((sub { })()) { };
21:31 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Null PMC access in get_bool()␤»
21:31 dagurval found a Null PMC access \o/
21:32 masak dagurval++ # \o/
21:32 masak dagurval: submit it!
21:33 dagurval ok! last bug of the year
21:33 masak :)
21:33 masak ...probably ;)
21:33 dagurval hehe, fingers crossed!
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21:45 colomon we should have a last bug of the year contest
21:49 * dwarring already too late here
21:50 dwarring nqp build nit...
21:52 dwarring nqp and parrot repos are via http (not https) - e.g. http://github.com/perl6/nqp.git
21:52 dwarring see https://github.com/perl6/nqp/blob/master/tools/lib/NQP/Configure.pm
21:52 dwarring this is not recommend and is sllooow see - https://github.com/blog/92-http-cloning
21:53 dwarring anyone object if I change http to https?
21:53 FROGGS +1
21:54 dwarring works much faster when I try it locally
21:57 dalek nqp: 61e4135 | (David Warring david.warring@gmail.com)++ | tools/lib/NQP/Configure.pm:
21:57 dalek nqp: tweak nqp & parrot git urls (http => https)
21:57 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/61e4135e3b
21:57 * dwarring done
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22:14 unclefester2 r: my Str ($s,$t); $s ~= "abc"; say $s; say $t ~ "def"; my Int ($i, $j); $i += 2; say $i; say $j +2
22:14 camelia rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«abc␤use of uninitialized value of type Str in string context␤def␤2␤Cannot look up attributes in a type object␤␤»
22:14 camelia ..rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«abc␤use of uninitialized value of type Str in string context  in block  at /tmp/KWPKUw9vbn:1␤␤def␤2␤Invocant requires an instance, but a type object was passed␤  in method Bridge at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:4272␤  in sub infix:<+> at gen/par…»
22:15 unclefester2 I have been away for a while
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22:36 unclefester2 r: class Dog{ has Str $.name}; my Dog @d; @d[1] = Dog.new(name => "Fred"); @d.say; say @d[0] + 2;
22:36 camelia rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«(Any) Dog.new(name => "Fred")␤use of uninitialized value of type Dog in numeric context␤2␤»
22:36 camelia ..rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«(Any) Dog.new(name => "Fred")␤use of uninitialized value of type Dog in numeric context  in block  at /tmp/i1NrX3l8e_:1␤␤2␤»
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22:39 timotimo unclefester2: i don't understand what you're trying to do :)
22:42 unclefester2 Well its an array of dog and when I skip an element I am surprised that I can do arithmetic with the skipped dog?
22:42 unclefester2 I also wonder about the skipped element having a type of "(any)"
22:43 timotimo it should have a type of (Dog)
22:44 unclefester2 I will do a bit more research in RT.  If I don't find anything I may email in a bug report unless there are objections ...
22:44 timotimo ah, yes, it shouldn't be (Any)
22:44 jeffreykegler joined #perl6
22:45 timotimo it may just be a printing problem?
22:45 unclefester2 except for the addition I can do on the element later ....
22:46 timotimo yeah, let me investigate ):
22:46 timotimo :)
22:46 timotimo r: my Str @foo; say @foo[0]; say @foo[0].WHAT;
22:46 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214, rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«(Str)␤(Str)␤»
22:47 timotimo r: my class Dog { has $.name; }; my Dog @foo; say @foo[0]; say @foo[0].WHAT;
22:47 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214, rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«(Dog)␤(Dog)␤»
22:47 timotimo r: my class Dog { has $.name; }; my Dog @foo; @foo[1] = Dog.new( :name<Poopy> ); say @foo[0]; say @foo[0].WHAT;
22:47 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214, rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«(Dog)␤(Dog)␤»
22:47 timotimo r: my class Dog { has $.name; }; my Dog @foo; @foo[1] = Dog.new( :name<Poopy> ); say @foo[0]; say @foo[0].WHAT; say @foo;
22:47 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214, rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«(Dog)␤(Dog)␤(Any) Dog.new(name => "Poopy")␤»
22:47 timotimo *interesting*!
22:48 FROGGS we had that yesterday
22:48 FROGGS List.at_pos give you a Dog because it returns the default
22:49 FROGGS but the default value is not stored in the slots, so say @foo shows Any
22:49 timotimo oh? i see
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22:52 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 00bddd4 | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
22:52 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
22:52 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/commit/00bddd49e5
22:52 dalek perl6-roast-data: b7b9a56 | coke++ | / (6 files):
22:52 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
22:52 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/b7b9a56dab
22:53 xenoterracide joined #perl6
22:55 unclefester2 FROGGS:  sorry - a bit new here - checked through the last two days and didn't see it - can you give link?  Also it's not just an appearance problem because you can add 2 to @d[0] ...
22:55 timotimo no, that's no problem
22:56 sftp_ joined #perl6
22:56 timotimo r: class Dog { has $.name; }; my Dog $x; $x + 2; my Str $x; $x + 2;
22:56 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤    Redeclaration of symbol $xâ�¤    at /tmp/0W4ws5eIAR:1â�¤    ------> [32m $.name; }; my Dog $x; $x + 2; my Str $x[33mâ��[31m; $x + 2;[0mâ�¤WARNINGS:â�¤Useless use of "+" in expression "$x + 2" in sink context (line 1)â�¤u…»
22:56 camelia ..rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤    Redeclaration of symbol $xâ�¤    at /tmp/TZLDGDx1Qy:1â�¤    ------> [32m $.name; }; my Dog $x; $x + 2; my Str $x[33mâ��[31m; $x + 2;[0mâ�¤WARNINGS:â�¤Useless use of "+" in expression "$x + 2" in sink context (line 1)â�¤use …»
22:56 timotimo oops
22:56 timotimo r: class Dog { has $.name; }; my Dog $x; $x + 2; my Str $y; $y + 2;
22:56 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«WARNINGS:␤Useless use of "+" in expression "$x + 2" in sink context (line 1)␤use of uninitialized value of type Dog in numeric context  in block  at /tmp/WaOMUfMF6P:1␤␤use of uninitialized value of type Str in numeric context  in block  at /tmp/W…»
22:56 camelia ..rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«WARNINGS:␤Useless use of "+" in expression "$x + 2" in sink context (line 1)␤use of uninitialized value of type Dog in numeric context␤use of uninitialized value of type Str in numeric context␤»
22:56 timotimo … :)
22:57 FROGGS unclefester2: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-12-26#i_8042741
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23:03 unclefester2 r: class Dog{ has Str $.name}; my Dog $d .= new(name => "Fred"); say $d + 2
23:03 camelia rakudo-parrot a77214: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'Numeric'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U \v: Mu *%_)␤  in any  at gen/parrot/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1218␤  in any  at gen/parrot/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1209␤  in method Numeric at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:997␤  in sub infix:<+> at gen/parrot/…»
23:04 camelia ..rakudo-jvm a77214: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'Numeric'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U \v: Mu *%_)␤  in any  at gen/jvm/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1201␤␤»
23:04 unclefester2 I think we all agree that what I typed in is not supposed to work but in my earlier example it sort of did.
23:05 unclefester2 Not only did it dump (Any) it added 2 to it.
23:06 timotimo a new year's eve rocket just exploded like a meter from my face %)
23:06 timotimo luckily, nobody was harmed
23:09 FROGGS /o\
23:10 FROGGS good that I have a reason to stay inside :o)
23:10 timotimo :)
23:10 timotimo we're on the 5th floor or the 6th
23:11 MikeFair_ joined #perl6
23:13 unclefester2 FROGGS: read through the backlog and agree that initializing to the default may be solution but think I may still have good test example
23:15 [Coke] \o/ - tomorrow's run should have some passing moar tests.
23:16 timotimo \o/
23:16 FROGGS yay \o/
23:18 FROGGS [Coke]: I had about ten tests that hang during a spectest run...
23:18 FROGGS but since these were not always the same tests I did not fudge any of those
23:19 FROGGS [Coke]: so, maybe look from time to time and kill processes that run longer than five minutes
23:20 [Coke] the daily run has a ulimit timer that takes care of that.
23:21 timotimo same procedure as last year, FROGGS?
23:21 daniel-s_ joined #perl6
23:21 FROGGS same procedure as every year, timotimo :o)
23:24 [Coke] I'm doing a one-off run now, looks like it's going to take a while.
23:25 timotimo probably :)
23:25 [Coke] I'll gist up the results after the new years party.
23:25 timotimo at least you didn't decrease the nusresy size to 5k :)

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