Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-01-23

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 FROGGS wow, what a mess
00:02 diakopter BenGoldberg: no, it's just the amount of significant digits provided in the code for pi
00:02 FROGGS BenGoldberg: if a certain precision of pi is specced, then it could be a n nieczabug
00:20 Ben_Goldberg joined #perl6
00:23 TimToady n: say pi
00:23 camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«3.1415926535897931␤»
00:23 TimToady n: say pi.WHAT
00:23 camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
00:29 TimToady well, nobody has done http://perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html#Allomorphic_Rats yet
00:30 timotimo yeah :(
00:32 jnthn timotimo: Weren't you looking for what to do next? ;)
00:32 timotimo enh :|
00:32 timotimo for that i'd need to get the multiple inheritance thing going, no?
00:32 jnthn Well, we already ahve multiple inheritance
00:32 jnthn And RatStr is the easy case
00:33 jnthn 'cus Rat doesn't have weird boxing stuff going on.
00:33 timotimo oh
00:33 timotimo well, that's fair
00:33 timotimo i don't think i'll get it in time for this release though.
00:33 jnthn uh, box target I mean.
00:33 jnthn That's fine :)
00:33 jnthn I'm happy enough if not too many more things land before the release :)
00:37 timotimo bitbucket has "sign in with github" and an "import ssh keys from github" button
00:38 timotimo also, there's a "clone from github" button
00:38 FROGGS nqp-m -e 'say("ABCabc123" ~~ /<+[C..Z]+:gc<Ll>>+/)'
00:38 FROGGS Cabc
00:38 diakopter timotimo: that's cool
00:39 FROGGS I might add this after release... (I need to codegen for parrot and jvm)
00:40 timotimo what exactly did you fix there?
00:40 timotimo oh, now i get it, it's inside the < ... >
00:40 timotimo the :gc
00:42 FROGGS right
00:43 FROGGS a colonpair, in theory
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00:47 lue I just realized some people may want "use encoding" to specify the code file's encoding, not the encoding they wish to handle text in :/ . Something to mull over while I'm afk.
00:47 diakopter http://www.developermedia.com/wp-content​/uploads/2014/01/Developer-Media-Tech-Tr​ends-Research-Results-Summary-1H2014.pdf
00:47 diakopter 2nd page
00:50 jnthn diakopter: So...C is dead? :)
00:51 diakopter no.. this was a survey about technologies
00:52 jnthn The graph is a curious mix
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00:53 diakopter (Java's not on there, but Eclipse is)
00:53 Mouq diakopter: I'm trying to find what the survey was, though. It could've just been a form of names wich checkboxed next to them
00:54 diakopter it's at the bottom
00:54 diakopter yeah, seems the case
00:54 Mouq *names with checkboxes
00:54 diakopter (the form
00:54 diakopter )
00:54 diakopter 441 self-selected respondents mostly from among visitors to codeproject, which is very much .net/web centric
01:00 jnthn I got some survey recently that was so hip it didn't list any of the technologies I work with day to day aside from JavaScript :)
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01:12 * grondilu sees on https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-d​ata/blob/master/perl6_pass_rates.csv that moar has taken the lead?!   Great news!
01:13 benabik I wonder why JVM regressed so much?
01:13 FROGGS grondilu: due to the fact that I messed up a huge test file for parrot and jvm
01:13 benabik FROGGS: let us have this moment.  ;-)
01:13 FROGGS everything is back to normal tomorrow :o)
01:13 FROGGS moar is then somewhere at >99%
01:15 grondilu ahh, ok.
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03:04 dalek perl6.org: 5aabea9 | coke++ | source/index.html:
03:04 dalek perl6.org: mention MoarVM
03:04 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/p​erl6.org/commit/5aabea92be
03:07 [Coke] hope that's not premature.
03:16 clsn p6: say <a b c>.WHAT; say <a <b> c>.WHAT;
03:16 camelia rakudo-parrot c5ca99, rakudo-jvm c5ca99, rakudo-moar c5ca99: OUTPUT«(Parcel)␤(List)␤»
03:16 camelia ..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«(Parcel)␤(Parcel)␤»
03:17 clsn Why Parcel and List I wonder.
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03:19 clsn p6: say qw[a b c].perl; say qw[a [b] c].perl;
03:19 camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«("a", "b", "c")␤("a", "[b]", "c")␤»
03:19 camelia ..rakudo-parrot c5ca99, rakudo-jvm c5ca99, rakudo-moar c5ca99: OUTPUT«("a", "b", "c")␤("a", "[b]", "c").list␤»
03:19 clsn It's having the (nested) delimiters in the qw.  Makes it a list and not a parcel for some reason.
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03:43 clsn p6: say rand.Rat.perl; say (9.5).Rat.perl
03:43 camelia rakudo-parrot c5ca99: OUTPUT«<659/1208>␤9.5␤»
03:43 camelia ..rakudo-moar c5ca99: OUTPUT«<375/922>␤9.5␤»
03:43 camelia ..rakudo-jvm c5ca99: OUTPUT«<53/1564>␤9.5␤»
03:43 camelia ..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«<450/769>␤9.5␤»
03:44 clsn Wonder why the two Rats get two different .perls (one with / and one as decimal).  And the one with num/den shouldn't have <>, since that's not the perl input that produces them, right?  I should probably take some of these little LHFs one of these days.
03:46 geekosaur Rat-s are specced with both those behaviors, IIRC
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03:57 diakopter TimToady: you seen this? https://github.com/tokuhirom/PSR
03:58 diakopter not to mention this https://github.com/tokuhirom/rockre
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05:07 Ben_Goldberg p6: my $r = pi.Rat; say $r.perl, $r, pi;
05:07 camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«<355/113>3.1415933.1415926535897931␤»
05:07 camelia ..rakudo-jvm c5ca99: OUTPUT«<355/113>3.1415933.141592653589793␤»
05:07 camelia ..rakudo-parrot c5ca99: OUTPUT«<355/113>3.1415933.14159265358979␤»
05:07 camelia ..rakudo-moar c5ca99: OUTPUT«<355/113>3.1415933.141593␤»
05:08 * Ben_Goldberg wonders why conversion from Num to Rat truncates so much
05:08 Ben_Goldberg p6: my $r = 3.1415926535897931.Rat; say $r.perl, $r, $r.denominator;
05:08 camelia rakudo-parrot c5ca99, rakudo-jvm c5ca99, rakudo-moar c5ca99, niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«3.14159265358979313.1415​92653589793110000000000000000␤»
05:08 Ben_Goldberg p6: my $r = 3.1415926535897931.Rat; say join ' ', $r.perl, $r, $r.denominator;
05:09 camelia rakudo-parrot c5ca99, rakudo-jvm c5ca99, rakudo-moar c5ca99, niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«3.1415926535897931 3.1415926535897931 10000000000000000␤»
05:09 Ben_Goldberg p6: my $r = 3.1415926535897931.Num.Rat; say join ' ', $r.perl, $r, $r.denominator;
05:09 camelia rakudo-parrot c5ca99, rakudo-jvm c5ca99, rakudo-moar c5ca99, niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«<355/113> 3.141593 113␤»
05:12 TimToady diakopter: gee, viv converts P6 grammars into P5 grammars
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05:49 Mouq It's gonna look messed up until I drastically change the structure, but I think http://mouq.github.io/feast at least *looks* cool even the tables break sometimes and there's a lot of possible functionality missing
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05:53 Mouq The name is meh, it's just what I used when I started working on it
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06:44 moritz diakopter: it's not a matter of file size
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09:06 FROGGS rakudo HEAD fail: https://gist.github.com/FR​OGGS/9677dc12d5a6cd38f73b
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09:07 moritz eeks
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09:30 FROGGS lue: about 'use encoding', I'd think that you would pass it like 'use Foo:enc<ucs2>' if you mean "modules" and 'use encoding "ucs2"' for strings/IO in your scope
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09:52 hoelzro morning #perl6
09:53 FROGGS o/(
09:54 moritz \o hoelzro
09:54 FROGGS -(
09:54 FROGGS ^--- sad cyclops
09:55 tadzik http://i.imgur.com/9jLBEsh.gif
09:56 tadzik somehow it seemed related
09:56 FROGGS O.<
09:57 FROGGS tadzik: you are coming to Poznań too? :D
09:57 tadzik FROGGS: sure :)
09:57 FROGGS \o/
09:57 tadzik yay, meetup!
09:57 FROGGS sad that we have to wait until may :/
09:57 FROGGS yeah
09:58 FROGGS and it is awesome, it is just a bit more than 2.5 hours from berlin by train
09:58 tadzik I wonder how far from Warsaw by train..
09:58 FROGGS (though, I need about an hour from south berlin to that station)
09:58 tadzik yeah, it can be 2.5 hours too :)
09:59 hoelzro tadzik: where is that gif from?
09:59 FROGGS tadzik: 16 hours and one minute
09:59 tadzik hoelzro: uh, from the internet? P
09:59 tadzik hoelzro: I saw it on reddit a while back, and was able to google it just now
09:59 hoelzro ah ha
09:59 hoelzro I thought it may have been a bug from a game or something =P
09:59 tadzik sth like  "james bond opening get down gif"
10:00 tadzik it is a bug from a game :)
10:00 FROGGS lol, google says you travel via frankfurt >.<
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10:00 tadzik FROGGS: 16 hours what? :o
10:00 FROGGS from warsaw to poznań
10:00 FROGGS (via frankfurt for some reason)
10:00 tadzik hoelzro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzwFpzdO3DY
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10:01 hoelzro what the hell
10:01 tadzik it has a knowyourmeme article
10:01 * hoelzro looks
10:02 tadzik FROGGS: surely not Frankfur Am Mein?
10:02 Mouq joined #perl6
10:02 FROGGS tadzik: no, Frankfurt (Oder), at least
10:02 tadzik but why 16 hours :o
10:03 tadzik with a 14 hour wait?
10:03 FROGGS warsaw to frankfurt is about 7 hours it seems
10:03 tadzik oh!
10:03 tadzik I didn't look at google :)
10:04 FROGGS I don't know otehr pages to look for trains outside of germany :o)
10:04 tadzik :)
10:04 FROGGS my connections shows up pretty accurate though
10:04 tadzik pkp.pl is the only train webpage I ever neded
10:04 tadzik it's a valley of tears sometimes, but it can be nice
10:05 tadzik last time I was going to Kraków, and Geothe instutute left free books inside the train
10:05 FROGGS well, I've got the problem that I cant read it :/
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10:05 tadzik like a preview books, and I can bring it to the Geothe Institute and get a full-sized book of a German author
10:05 FROGGS a bit like matrix... the blue or the red button?
10:05 tadzik hehe
10:05 grondilu p6: say pi.FatRat.perl
10:05 camelia rakudo-parrot c5ca99, rakudo-jvm c5ca99, rakudo-moar c5ca99: OUTPUT«FatRat.new(355, 113)␤»
10:05 tadzik FROGGS: the green one :P
10:05 camelia ..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«FatRat.new(884279719003555, 281474976710656)␤»
10:05 tadzik http://www.rozklad-pkp.pl/bin/query.exe/pn? is what you care about
10:06 tadzik it's pretty confusing though, even in Polish
10:06 FROGGS ha, that is the same software as we use in berlin it seems :o)
10:06 tadzik the main page also says: Recommended: Train Delays
10:07 tadzik I don't think that people riding a train for 24 hours instead of 3 appreciate the humour
10:07 FROGGS ohh dear... I will bug you about train station namen in may then, okay?
10:07 tadzik sure
10:07 FROGGS names*
10:07 tadzik you're most likely interested in Poznań Główny
10:08 FROGGS it is rediculous that Poznań does not show up when you type Poznan
10:08 FROGGS at least to me
10:09 tadzik haha
10:09 tadzik indeed
10:09 tadzik try "pozna" :P
10:09 FROGGS that worked, yes
10:10 dalek nqp: be6a8f1 | jnthn++ | t (2 files):
10:10 dalek nqp: Bump to Moar 2014.01 in readiness for release.
10:10 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/be6a8f1403
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10:33 sergot masak: [Coke]: I meant passwords on others sites, if you have the same. :)
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11:14 timotimo o/
11:20 FROGGS o/
11:23 dalek roast: 67c03a7 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (2 files):
11:23 dalek roast: adjust expectation after off-by-one was fixed
11:23 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/67c03a7a9c
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12:12 [Coke] sergot++
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13:04 FROGGS only one worrying this left:
13:04 FROGGS t/spec/S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.t                                (Wstat: 0 Tests: 41 Failed: 21)
13:04 FROGGS Failed tests:  1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23
13:04 FROGGS 25, 27, 29, 31-32, 34, 36, 38, 40
13:04 timotimo that's for moarvm?
13:04 FROGGS no
13:04 FROGGS parrot
13:04 timotimo oh!
13:04 timotimo that's not good
13:04 FROGGS I know
13:05 jnthn FROGGS: Does this show up in the daily runs?
13:05 FROGGS jnthn: yes, since I fixed the test file yesterday
13:05 FROGGS it was skipped
13:05 jnthn Oh, darn...
13:06 FROGGS yeah
13:06 FROGGS it was meant to be skipped for jvm, but was skipped for all ... for five months
13:07 jnthn So we have no idea when it started failing :(
13:07 FROGGS correct
13:08 jnthn otoh, if sockets were actually busted then we'd probably have heard about it...iirc, Panda relies on them to obtain its stuff.
13:08 moritz and people have been developing Net::IRC
13:08 jnthn Busted as in "don't work at all"
13:08 jnthn Right
13:08 jnthn Doesn't mean nothing is wrong, though.
13:08 colomon jnthn: last I looked, panda just called curl (or something like that)
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13:09 FROGGS it times out I think
13:09 FROGGS but just started now
13:09 colomon hmmm, Panda does have one call to IO::Socket
13:10 colomon IO::Socket::INET
13:11 jnthn my $s = IO::Socket::INET.new(:host<feather.perl6.nl>, :port(3000));
13:11 jnthn yeah
13:11 jnthn it's using it to get the module list
13:11 * colomon is trying it now, but pandabrew insisted on rebootstraping, so it may take a while
13:12 colomon also, I think I'm running it on JVM at the moment.  ;)
13:13 colomon um
13:15 FROGGS not ok 1 - [44s] echo server and client
13:15 FROGGS #      got: '===SORRY!===
13:15 FROGGS # Could not find symbol '&INET'
13:15 FROGGS # (timeout)
13:15 FROGGS I am not sure I understand that
13:15 FROGGS r: say IO::Socket::INET
13:16 colomon I can confirm that rakudo parrot panda updated projects.json I my machine just now without apparent issue
13:16 camelia rakudo-moar c5ca99: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find symbol '&INET'␤»
13:16 camelia ..rakudo-parrot c5ca99, rakudo-jvm c5ca99: OUTPUT«(IO::Socket::INET)␤»
13:16 FROGGS aha
13:17 jnthn No sockets in Moar yet
13:18 FROGGS I know, but the TAP I pasted is from perl6-p
13:19 jnthn FROGGS: Is it accidentally invokving a perl6 (that happens to be perl6-m) at some point?
13:19 FROGGS >.<
13:19 FROGGS jnthn++
13:20 FROGGS but my configure line was: perl Configure.pl --backends=parrot,jvm,moar --prefix=../nqp/install && make install
13:22 FROGGS k, now it is only a timeout
13:22 jnthn Does it timeout on JVM too?
13:22 jnthn (I know it's skipped, but if you try to run it...)
13:24 FROGGS yes, but it invokes ./perl6 anyway... I fixing that
13:27 FROGGS jvm does work now, at least the first test
13:27 jnthn k
13:27 FROGGS p: say $*EXECUTABLE_NAME.path.absolute
13:27 jnthn I seem to remember something about timeouts...
13:27 camelia rakudo-parrot c5ca99: OUTPUT«IO::Path</home/p6eval​/rakudo-inst/bin/perl6-p>␤»
13:27 FROGGS j: say $*EXECUTABLE_NAME.path.absolute
13:27 camelia rakudo-jvm c5ca99: OUTPUT«IO::Path</home/p6eval_eval/perl6-j>␤»
13:28 FROGGS assum
13:29 FROGGS and now it does not time out for parrot?
13:29 FROGGS the answer came in 3s
13:31 jnthn What did you change?
13:31 FROGGS just gave it the right binary name
13:31 FROGGS but I think the moar runner was to blame
13:31 jnthn ah
13:31 jnthn k
13:32 jnthn So now we're clean?
13:32 FROGGS not sure yet
13:32 FROGGS in roast there is that: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/blo​b/master/log/rakudo.parrot_summary.out#L2582
13:33 FROGGS yeah, test 40 fails here too
13:36 dalek roast: 0faa8bb | (Tobias Leich)++ | S32-io/IO-Socket-INET. (3 files):
13:36 dalek roast: use correct executable for running client/server
13:36 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/0faa8bba68
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13:43 dalek roast: 8f066b8 | (Tobias Leich)++ | S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.t:
13:43 dalek roast: correctly interpolate executable name
13:43 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/8f066b8ea5
13:50 FROGGS gah, test 40 fails not because the binary data differs, no, one of them is a Buf[uint8] and the other one is a Buf
13:51 dalek roast: 2620680 | (Tobias Leich)++ | S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.pl:
13:51 dalek roast: just check for the contained data
13:51 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/2620680ef9
13:51 FROGGS jnthn: spectest clean sir
13:51 colomon FROGGS++
13:51 FROGGS (p-spectest taht is)
13:51 [Coke] IWBNI MAIN() would tell you the types of arguments when you make a mistake. (declare that MAIN takes an Int arg, but give it a string - it will show you the usage, but won't mention Int vs. Str)
13:52 [Coke] FROGGS++ cleaning up my mess.
13:52 moritz so, all clear for masak++ doing the release today? :-)
13:53 FROGGS moritz: well, doing a j-spectest now
13:53 jnthn FROGGS++ # awesome
13:53 moritz now is a good time to add entries to docs/ChangeLog
13:53 jnthn Indeed.
13:53 FROGGS t/spec/S02-magicals/env.rakudo.jvm ........................... Failed 1/17 subtests
13:53 jnthn The MoarVM monthly tarball is already cut for masak too :)
13:54 moritz is it uploaded somewhere?
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13:54 jnthn moritz: http://jnthn.net/MoarVM/MoarVM-2014.01.tar.gz
13:54 moritz \o/
13:54 [Coke] there have been jvm failures for several weeks.
13:55 jnthn moritz: I'm planning to get a site up at moarvm.org and then have it there in a bit
13:55 dalek rakudo/nom: 64e6517 | moritz++ | docs/ChangeLog:
13:55 dalek rakudo/nom: add a ChangeLog entry
13:55 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/64e65172a5
13:55 jnthn Started on that last night, but it got to 3am and I wanted to sleep. And got $dayjob things to do at the moment
13:56 moritz FROGGS: have you written any spectests for <alias=:alpha> etc. ?
13:56 FROGGS moritz: yes
13:56 moritz \o/
13:56 moritz FROGGS++
13:56 FROGGS moritz: just grep for "foo" and "bar" in t/spec :P
13:57 moritz :-)
13:57 moritz t/spec$ git grep --word foo|wc -l
13:57 moritz 2632
13:57 moritz bar has only 1239 hits
13:59 FROGGS m-runner-default: $(M_RUNNER)
13:59 FROGGS $(CP) $(M_RUNNER) perl6
13:59 FROGGS that should have a $(BAT) or so, right?
13:59 dalek rakudo/nom: c2967a0 | jnthn++ | docs/ChangeLog:
13:59 dalek rakudo/nom: A few more ChangeLog entries.
13:59 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c2967a0a1c
13:59 moritz FROGGS: yes, I think so
13:59 jnthn FROGGS: Yes, think so
13:59 * jnthn makes a cup of tea and gets back to course writing
14:00 FROGGS ahh, it has a @runner_suffix@ in the Makefile.in, nvm then
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15:11 * nwc10 forgets - who is doing the release today?
15:11 nwc10 oh, scrollback implies masak
15:11 jnthn el sengor masak
15:12 jnthn Maybe starting on it in a couple of hours, I guess
15:14 kaare__ joined #perl6
15:27 Mouq joined #perl6
15:34 [Coke] r: say 1,2…9
15:34 camelia rakudo-parrot c2967a, rakudo-jvm c2967a, rakudo-moar c2967a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤------> [32msay 1,2[33mâ��[31m…9[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfixâ�¤        infix stoppe…»
15:34 [Coke] is that something we can module?
15:34 [Coke] (or should we add a non texas variety?)
15:36 jnthn module imo
15:39 colomon is that the unicode … ?
15:43 jnthn .u …
15:43 yoleaux U+2026 HORIZONTAL ELLIPSIS [Po] (…)
15:46 [Coke] just wondering how we'd provide that... as an infix?
15:47 [Coke] r: sub infix<<…>> {$a...$b} ; say 1,2…10
15:47 camelia rakudo-parrot c2967a, rakudo-jvm c2967a, rakudo-moar c2967a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Missing blockâ�¤at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤------> [32msub infix[33mâ��[31m<<…>> {$a...$b} ; say 1,2…10[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        state…»
15:47 [Coke] r: sub infix<<…>> {$^a...$^b} ; say 1,2…10
15:47 camelia rakudo-parrot c2967a, rakudo-jvm c2967a, rakudo-moar c2967a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Missing blockâ�¤at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤------> [32msub infix[33mâ��[31m<<…>> {$^a...$^b} ; say 1,2…10[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        sta…»
15:48 PerlJam r:  sub infix:<…> { $^a...$^b };  say 1,2…10
15:48 camelia rakudo-parrot c2967a, rakudo-jvm c2967a, rakudo-moar c2967a: OUTPUT«12 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10␤»
15:49 PerlJam (note the relative precedence)
15:50 PerlJam IS there a doc somewhere that explains the rationale behind having some unicode+texas ops and not others ?
15:50 * skids was thinking of doing a module that mapped most existing core ops to most appropriate unicode
15:51 skids Mainly just to provide a place for people to argue about which ones were most appropriate.
15:51 skids Though IIRC 'is tighter'/'is equiv'/etc are NYI.
15:51 moritz PerlJam: the "core" Unicode operators are all in the Latin-1 range
15:52 moritz skids: I think they are implemented
15:52 moritz PerlJam: only the set operators fall out of that schema
15:54 PerlJam moritz: Aye, but is that "the" answer.  (I honestly never gave it much thought until now).
15:54 skids r: sub infix:<⊶> (\a, \b) is equiv(&infix<^..>) { \a ^.. \b }; .say for 1 ⊶ 5;
15:54 camelia rakudo-parrot c2967a, rakudo-jvm c2967a, rakudo-moar c2967a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Can't use unknown trait 'is equiv' in a sub+{precedence} declaration.â�¤at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤------> â�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        rw parcel hi…»
15:54 PerlJam (i.e., when people ask why we don't have … and →, what do we say?)
15:55 colomon I'm in favor of … if for no better reason that my IRC client seems to decide to substitute it when I type three .
15:58 Psyche^_ joined #perl6
16:00 FROGGS joined #perl6
16:00 colomon well, and it would be a Bad Thing to let people define it to mean something else.
16:00 FROGGS *brrrr*, it is pretty damn cold on a bike these days
16:00 Juerd colomon: That means you'd have to predefine all the right arrows...
16:00 colomon (I mean, I guess we would allow it anyway, but having it default to the right thing seems sensible)
16:01 Juerd I think that any character that is not present on any standard keyboard layout, should not be used :)
16:01 colomon p6 wildly disagrees with you on that one.
16:01 Juerd I know
16:01 * PerlJam doesn't see any guillemets on his keyboard
16:02 Juerd PerlJam: They are on some standard keyboard layouts though.
16:02 Juerd (Yes, there is a → on my keyboard, but that's a cursor key :))
16:03 nwc10 I have a ⌘ key, but if I press it nothing seems to happen :-)
16:03 nwc10 to be fair, I also have a ⏏ which does do something.
16:04 PerlJam Juerd: maybe if programming langauges start using unicode more, the "standard keyboard layouts" will start including unicode characters
16:06 skids I think it's important to keep most of the non-typable characters out of the core distro as a warning that they should only be used in domain-specific devel environments, but also to stake claim to some obvious ones so they don't get abused.  Thus, module.
16:06 skids (One module to bind them all)
16:07 Juerd PerlJam: Well, tbh I've just mappend compose + arrow to their respective symbols
16:07 skids But as to what to name it, that's where I'm hung.
16:07 PerlJam heh, I was just thinking about remapping some of my keys too :)
16:07 Juerd So typing → is now 2 keystrokes, one less than ->.
16:08 Juerd So does Perl 6 support ≥ and such?
16:09 skids No I think you can still count them on two hands, including the set operators.
16:09 Juerd Two hands... that's 0..1023 :)
16:09 skids Kindercounting. :-)
16:10 skids And it's 3**10 if you use trinary with bent knuckles.
16:13 colomon to me, the interesting distinction between … and → is that the former really looks like the ASCII version, while the latter does not.  At least in the font I'm using, I'd never confuse the latter, and really can't tell the difference between the former.
16:13 treehug88 joined #perl6
16:14 skids Problem with any arrow is there are tens of nearly identical options.
16:15 Juerd In my terminals, … looks like one character whereas ... looks like 3 :)
16:15 colomon Juerd: in mine, they look almost exactly the same.  The latter is slightly darker, but that's it.  and that's only easy to compare because you put them both on the same line.
16:16 Juerd http://juerd.nl/i/e110ad537​85506342d9c8285eb4a711b.png
16:17 skids xchat-gnome looks like what colomon is seeing.
16:20 colomon http://harmonyware.com/pictures/dots.png
16:21 FROGGS that is why I use a fixed-width font :o)
16:23 skids FROGGS: I bet you even have (setq show-trailing-whitespace t) in your .emacsrc, you snob :-)
16:23 FROGGS skids: I am using SciTe, but yes, it shows whitespace :P
16:24 zby_home_ joined #perl6
16:27 FROGGS maybe I am too german to tolerate tab/spaces mixups
16:41 PerlJam FROGGS: what does being german have to do with tab/spaces mixups?
16:41 PerlJam FROGGS: and does this affect the number of german python programmers?
16:42 skids .oO(ALLCAPS programming language)
16:42 FROGGS PerlJam: I'd say germans tend to be picky of that kind of stuff
16:43 FROGGS PerlJam: for example we have like ten times more road signs than ppl living here... we like it when everything is ordered well
16:44 PerlJam interesting.
16:45 skids I'd have to get out and walk to read that many road signs.
16:45 PerlJam you made me think of a trip to Mexico I made about 10 years ago though.  There were road signs all over the place.  The problem was that they were small and not at eye-level, so you really had to look around to see them  (and most locals seemed to just ignore them anyway)
16:47 bluescreen10 joined #perl6
16:48 FROGGS sad, I can't find the pic...
16:49 FROGGS but I'Ve seen one near a forest
16:49 FROGGS and there was a street and a walkway through the forst
16:49 FROGGS forest*
16:49 FROGGS and another walkway in parallel to the street
16:49 FROGGS where the walkways met where at least 30 road signs
16:50 skids Here we just paint colored rectangles on trees and hope some high school kids don't go and mess with it.
16:51 timotimo should we reword the changelog entry for moar to read ">99%" already?
16:51 jnthn timotimo: Yeah, go for it. :)
16:52 jnthn timotimo: We were 100% yesterday :P
16:52 dalek rakudo/nom: 0e89264 | timo++ | docs/ChangeLog:
16:52 dalek rakudo/nom: rakudo-moar actually has >99% now
16:52 dalek rakudo/nom:
16:52 dalek rakudo/nom: edited with no small amount of pride
16:52 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0e8926436f
16:55 colomon \o?
16:55 colomon \o/
16:55 colomon \o? is really the kind of day I'm having
17:05 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 0ab14e7 | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
17:05 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
17:05 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/0ab14e7051
17:06 timotimo tadzik: you didn't have a look at the warnings in the panda tests :(
17:07 panchiniak joined #perl6
17:08 jnthn timotimo: There's time for it before the month's Star release still
17:13 moritz which tests does moar pass that the JVM doesn't?
17:14 timotimo the test of time.
17:14 jnthn Probably some Unicode related things also
17:15 jnthn We don't do NFG yet, but we don't have UTF-16 brain damage either.
17:15 Mouq joined #perl6
17:17 timotimo what exactly is the 32 bit integer representation we have? does it cover all and for realsies all unicode characters ever?
17:18 jnthn It's basically UTF-32 at the moment. But note they're signed; we'll use negatives for NFG
17:18 jnthn It does cover all the Unicode *codepoints* ever.
17:18 jnthn Character is a much fuzzier notion.
17:18 timotimo ah, of course
17:19 FROGGS the terms are described in the first 50 pages of the unicode spec btw :o)
17:20 [Coke] someone wants to write some p5 to help out star, it'd be nice if the 'make modules-test' actually had a single harness rather than one per module.
17:21 djanatyn joined #perl6
17:22 ajr joined #perl6
17:25 timotimo jnthn: fwiw, the async file class still has a nasty bug in which it closes the $PIO and later tries to boolify it, which doesn't give back false for a closed file descriptor
17:25 timotimo and i don't know how to properly set the boolification spec.
17:26 Tene joined #perl6
17:27 djanatyn joined #perl6
17:27 jnthn timotimo: oh, hmm
17:28 timotimo despite spending lots of time on moarvm this month, the rakudo team has collected a sizable amount of changes visible to every perl6 user; i'm very happy
17:29 djanatyn joined #perl6
17:30 moritz well, there is overlap between the moar and rakudo teams, but also some folks that work on just one them
17:31 jnthn Some significant improvements on JVM also.
17:31 [Coke] also I ate a donut.
17:31 timotimo does the usage of a single classloader for all classes warrant a changelog entry?
17:31 timotimo that was for all P6Opaque, right?
17:31 jnthn timotimo: Did that actually go in yet?
17:32 timotimo i should have a look
17:32 jnthn ah yes, seems so
17:32 jnthn 6ee48136a
17:32 [Coke] r: "Moar is at {100*28656/28786} of parrot today."
17:33 camelia rakudo-parrot 0e8926, rakudo-jvm 0e8926, rakudo-moar 0e8926: ( no output )
17:33 [Coke] r: say "Moar is at {100*28656/28786} of parrot today."
17:33 camelia rakudo-parrot 0e8926, rakudo-jvm 0e8926, rakudo-moar 0e8926: OUTPUT«Moar is at 99.548392 of parrot today.␤»
17:33 timotimo Only use a single ByteClassLoader, attached to the GlobalContext. got in
17:33 [Coke] is there -ever- a case where the three rakudos will be running different versions?
17:33 jnthn timotimo: Mark it as JVM specific in Changeog
17:33 [Coke] (and if so, can we only report the hash once in cases where it's the same?)
17:33 timotimo [Coke]: i had been working on a script that would compress this text down to a readable but succint format in all cases
17:33 colomon 99.5%?!  \o/
17:33 jnthn [Coke]: I think that they are built/deployed at different times
17:34 jnthn colomon: That's against Parrot, not against JVM...
17:34 timotimo jnthn: did anybody check if it actually makes a big difference in anything?
17:34 colomon oh
17:34 jnthn timotimo: Well, it made a differnce in that arnsholt++ could unbust stuff
17:34 timotimo :D
17:34 jnthn timotimo: Ohh!!! Of course, we must mention NativeCall on JVM should work much better now in the ChangeLog too!
17:34 PerlJam one of these days it'll be "Moar is at 102.23434% of parrot today"  :)
17:35 [Coke] timotimo: danke.
17:35 timotimo [Coke]: but i've been writing it in perl6, because that's all i know :P
17:35 timotimo someone will have to port it for me
17:36 [Coke] timotimo: can't we guarantee that we always have a working perl6 about? ;)
17:36 timotimo who knows :)
17:36 [Coke] but yah, someone can port it.
17:37 dalek rakudo/nom: 4850a74 | timo++ | docs/ChangeLog:
17:37 dalek rakudo/nom: a few more JVM changelog entries
17:37 dalek rakudo/nom:
17:37 dalek rakudo/nom: arnsholt++ is to thank for these
17:37 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4850a74ae6
17:44 psch joined #perl6
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17:50 erkan joined #perl6
17:50 erkan joined #perl6
17:54 timotimo i've found something where perl6-m runs fine and perl6-p double-frees :)
17:55 jnthn .oO( bug free )
17:56 timotimo rakudo: my $foo = 0 but ""; say $foo ~ " hey!"
17:56 FROGGS[mobile] joined #perl6
17:56 camelia rakudo-parrot 0e8926, rakudo-jvm 0e8926, rakudo-moar 0e8926: OUTPUT« hey!␤»
17:56 timotimo hm.
17:57 masak evening, #perl6
17:57 TimToady one would expect ~ to prefer the stringy bits
17:58 psch hi masak, hi #perl6
17:58 timotimo yes, it does in this example, but locally i have a fail that i need to golf
17:58 psch (or the other way around..?)
17:59 timotimo r: class Test { has $.prefix = 0 but ""; has $.postfix = 0 but "" }; given Test.new { say .prefix ~ " - " ~ .postfix }
17:59 rindolf joined #perl6
17:59 masak I had this idea that I would cut a Rakudo release tonight. what do you think of that, #perl6?
17:59 camelia rakudo-parrot 0e8926, rakudo-jvm 0e8926, rakudo-moar 0e8926: OUTPUT« - ␤»
17:59 timotimo masak: i think that would be splendid
17:59 masak in fact, I'm planning to cut a Rakudo release *while on a train*.
17:59 grondilu rakudo: my $foo = 0 but ""; say $foo ~~ " hey!"
17:59 camelia rakudo-parrot 0e8926, rakudo-jvm 0e8926, rakudo-moar 0e8926: OUTPUT«False␤»
17:59 geekosaur rolling release? :p
17:59 * masak .oO( :P
17:59 masak )
18:00 masak yeah, it's continuous delivery.
18:00 jnthn Rakudo on Rails?
18:00 timotimo ah, i know what i've done wrong
18:00 * masak .oO( Perl 6 on Pails )
18:00 timotimo i've been initialising the attributes when calling the constructor
18:00 timotimo and *then* i put in default values
18:10 immortal joined #perl6
18:10 masak hm, so what should we name this release...
18:11 PerlJam Fred
18:11 TimToady Three Musketeers
18:11 * PerlJam wishes we would do away with the names as that ends up being the hardest part of releasing  :)
18:12 TimToady Three Stooges
18:12 TimToady Three Blind Mice
18:12 TimToady Three Little Pigs
18:12 TimToady the latter is pretty accurate :)
18:12 timotimo but it's two-thousand and *four*!
18:13 TimToady .oO( off by 10 error? )
18:13 PerlJam TimToady: which one has the house of bricks?
18:15 TimToady well, if we go with Musketeers, rakudo can be D'Artagnan, the 4th musketter
18:15 TimToady *teer
18:17 TimToady Triple Play
18:18 TimToady But Wait, There's Moar
18:18 jnthn Just don't call it "Three Way" and we're all good...
18:18 PerlJam trifecta!
18:18 masak ok, how about "HongKong"?
18:19 TimToady PerlJam: that's not bad
18:20 jnthn Are there any place names with a 3 in them, if we want to pretend there's a Pm group there? :)
18:20 TimToady especially if we don't commit to whether the "*fecta" part refers more to "per" or "de"
18:20 * masak .oO( one country, two systems, three backends )
18:21 TimToady I sure there must be a city somewhere with 三 in its name
18:21 masak yes, but does it have a .pm group? :)
18:22 jnthn masak: I'm not sure that's stopped us choosing cities before ;)
18:22 TimToady Three Rivers Stadium is in Pittsburgh, fwiw
18:23 masak ok, I'll leave you to settle this. if I hear a convincing argument for a city, I can change from HongKong to something else.
18:23 jnthn There are multiple cities called Trinity, it turns out.
18:23 timotimo are there three of them?
18:24 jnthn At least 4
18:24 benabik Some of them need to go.
18:24 benabik ;-)
18:24 TimToady why "HongKong"?
18:25 jnthn benabik: Well, Trinity, TX shows up on Google maps with a winter storm warning, so there's hope ;)
18:25 PerlJam TimToady: hopefully the *fecta part is more "in" or "per" than "de"  :)
18:26 btyler_ joined #perl6
18:27 TimToady maybe we should name it Plano because that implies at least three dimensions
18:27 jnthn oooh!
18:27 PerlJam +1
18:27 jnthn TimToady++
18:27 dalek rakudo/nom: c6739ec | masak++ | docs/announce/2014.01.md:
18:27 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/announce/2014.01.md] added
18:27 dalek rakudo/nom:
18:27 dalek rakudo/nom: Still need to fill in changes in this release, and contributors.
18:27 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c6739ecdc0
18:27 masak ok, Plano it is.
18:27 masak hold on, changing.
18:29 dalek rakudo/nom: d32e089 | masak++ | docs/announce/2014.01.md:
18:29 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/announce/2014.01.md] code name "Plano"
18:29 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d32e0891f1
18:31 dalek rakudo/nom: 3ecf7ee | masak++ | README:
18:31 dalek rakudo/nom: [README] update copyright year
18:31 dalek rakudo/nom:
18:31 dalek rakudo/nom: It's 2014! The year of Perl 6 on the desktop, surely.
18:31 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3ecf7ee3bd
18:32 * jnthn adds "make Rakudo Star MSI install a desktop icon" to his todo list, to make sure it is so
18:32 timotimo do we have a proper icon?
18:32 timotimo just camelia?
18:33 timotimo once we have rakudo-star JVM, we can even ship a little gui with the repl
18:33 timotimo and perhaps a gui for panda, too
18:35 ponbiki joined #perl6
18:36 timotimo it might be time to write a perl6-highlighter in perl6 for that repl :P
18:37 masak Use of uninitialized value $lines[0] in pattern match (m//) at tools/update-tai-utc.pl line 18.
18:37 masak still getting this error message, like, a million times.
18:37 masak *sigh* -- can I just assume there were no leap seconds this month?
18:38 jnthn Well, see ftp://hpiers.obspm.fr/iers/​bul/bulc/TimeSteps.history
18:38 jnthn Last entry on there is for 2012 Jul 1
18:39 jeffreykegler joined #perl6
18:39 masak looks like the ChangeLog has been properly kept up to date. timotimo++ jnthn++ moritz++
18:39 * TimToady thinks they should just install a few leap-minutes every 1000 years or so
18:40 masak someone is very welcome to find out what's wrong with tools/update-tai-utc.pl
18:41 jnthn Well, it looks for this:
18:41 jnthn shift @lines until $lines[0] =~ /\A 1972  Jul\.   1/;
18:41 jnthn But the line it's looking for now reads:
18:42 dalek rakudo/nom: 2d29ae5 | masak++ | docs/announce/2014.01.md:
18:42 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/announce/2014.01.md] contributors
18:42 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2d29ae56bb
18:42 jnthn oh...just like that.
18:42 TimToady wow, that's different :)
18:42 jnthn \A is start of this...
18:42 jnthn argh
18:42 jnthn strart of *string*?
18:42 masak yep.
18:43 * jnthn wonders why not ^ :)
18:43 raydiak b/c ^ is start of line :)
18:43 TimToady because someone might put /m on it someday :)
18:43 * PerlJam doesn't get any such message when he runs tools/update-tai-utc.pl
18:43 TimToady and then it would be misleading, despite still working right :)
18:44 jnthn rylinaux: Only with the m modifier... :)
18:44 timotimo masak: "Timo Paulssen" and "timotimo" is a dupe
18:45 jnthn I always found the naming of the s and m modifiers fun to explain. "s makes . match *m*ultiple lines, while m makes ^ and $ refer to a *s*ingle line" :)
18:46 jnthn In .Net they're spelled SingleLine and MultiLine or so and it once took me 10 minutes to convince somebody that yes, they really did want the one called SingleLine in order to make . match over multiple lines...
18:46 TimToady m makes ^ and $ match multiple times in a multi-line string; s treats the multi-line string as a single line
18:46 jnthn TimToady: Yeah, that's the correct interpretation. It's just easy to guess or mis-remember the other one, I guess.
18:46 TimToady or if you prefer, 's' makes it use string semantics rather than line semantics
18:47 dalek rakudo/nom: f81a636 | masak++ | docs/announce/2014.01.md:
18:47 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/announce/2014.01.md] some changes
18:47 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f81a636fa4
18:47 TimToady but yeah, the whole thing is a bad thunk
18:47 raydiak (oh and good morning all)
18:48 timotimo hullo raydiak :)
18:48 dalek rakudo/nom: a489283 | masak++ | docs/announce/2014.01.md:
18:48 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/announce/2014.01.md] de-dupe timotimo
18:48 dalek rakudo/nom:
18:48 dalek rakudo/nom: timotimo++ (or was it Timo Paulssen?) for pointing it out.
18:48 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a4892839cd
18:48 masak raydiak: \o
18:48 jnthn masak: The other one I'd call out in there is the fixing of the JVM stack overflow bug
18:48 jnthn masak: It was one that was easily run into and a real pain.
18:48 timotimo oh yes definitely
18:49 masak jnok, will do.
18:49 raydiak [Coke]: re single test harness, do you mean just calling prove once with all the module test dirs passed to it?
18:49 jnthn afk for a bit
18:49 dalek rakudo/nom: c0c6a6b | masak++ | docs/announce/2014.01.md:
18:49 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/announce/2014.01.md] include SO JVM bug
18:49 dalek rakudo/nom:
18:49 dalek rakudo/nom: By popular demand.
18:49 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c0c6a6bade
18:51 * TimToady should contribute someday... :)
18:51 dalek rakudo/nom: a365a23 | duff++ | CREDITS:
18:51 dalek rakudo/nom: Add another alias for timo
18:51 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a365a235f9
18:52 timotimo oh good call
18:53 dalek rakudo/nom: bbbebb3 | masak++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
18:53 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/release_guide.pod] update release dates/names
18:53 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/bbbebb3bab
18:54 masak down the call stack I slide. time for the NQP release process.
18:55 * masak .oO( two release processes for the price of one! )
18:55 timotimo how so?
18:55 PerlJam the rakudo release isn't going to mention moar yet?
18:55 timotimo at least not the rakudo star release ...
18:56 masak PerlJam: forgiveness > permission
18:56 masak feel free to come up with sump'n.
18:56 masak by the rule outlined in NQP's step 1, I should *not* update the PARROT_REVISION.
18:57 dalek nqp: 283f8f2 | masak++ | VERSION:
18:57 dalek nqp: bump VERSION to 2014.01
18:57 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/283f8f2f9d
18:57 timotimo i think it's supposed to give us regex test passes
18:59 masak well, I'm just following the (very clear) instructions.
18:59 timotimo sure, i'm not complaining
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19:14 pmichaud FWIW, DFW.pm hasn't been picked for a release name yet.  :)
19:15 masak pmichaud: maybe add it to the release guide for next time? :)
19:15 jnthn In the first para, "Rakudo is an implementation of Perl 6 on the Parrot Virtual Machine and the Java Virtual Machine." May want to tweak that. ;) Or I'll do it after shopping if nobody beats me to it. :)
19:15 jnthn bbi15
19:16 raydiak how about this: "We've worked extra-hard this month to offer you a world-exclusive special. Starting right here, right now, Rakudo supports revolutionary MoarVM technology. That's right, folks! You get not one, not two, but *three* rakudo backends for the low, low price of FREEEEEEEE! Download now! Offer only valid while supplies last."
19:16 masak I don't think I will be able to upload things. I don't have the SSH keys on this machine.
19:16 masak maybe someone can help me with that?
19:16 masak raydiak: "...except in Nebraska!" *wide eyes*
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19:17 pmichaud I'm not sure we want two Texas cities in back-to-back releases... but yes, I'll add DFW to the list.
19:17 psch r: $_ = "aa"; .++.say while 1; # RT99732
19:18 camelia rakudo-moar 4850a7: OUTPUT«(timeout)aa␤ab␤ac␤ad␤ae␤af␤ag␤ah␤ai​␤aj␤ak␤al␤am␤an␤ao␤ap␤aq␤ar␤as␤at␤au␤av␤aw​␤ax␤ay␤az␤ba␤bb␤bc␤bd␤be␤bf␤bg␤bh␤bi␤bj␤bk​␤bl␤bm␤bn␤bo␤bp␤bq␤br␤bs␤bt␤bu␤bv␤bw␤bx…»
19:18 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 4850a7: OUTPUT«(timeout)aa␤ab␤ac␤ad␤ae␤af␤ag␤ah␤ai​␤aj␤ak␤al␤am␤an␤ao␤ap␤aq␤ar␤as␤at␤au␤av␤aw​␤ax␤ay␤az␤ba␤bb␤bc␤bd␤be␤bf␤bg␤bh␤bi␤bj␤bk​␤bl␤bm␤bn␤bo␤bp␤bq␤br␤bs␤bt␤bu␤bv␤bw␤bx…»
19:18 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 4850a7: OUTPUT«(timeout)aa␤ab␤ac␤ad␤ae␤af␤ag␤ah␤ai​␤aj␤ak␤al␤am␤an␤ao␤ap␤aq␤ar␤as␤at␤au␤av␤aw​␤ax␤ay␤az␤ba␤bb␤bc␤bd␤be␤bf␤bg␤bh␤bi␤bj␤bk​␤bl␤bm␤bn␤bo␤bp␤bq␤br␤bs␤bt␤bu␤bv␤bw␤…»
19:19 dalek rakudo/nom: e7280d0 | duff++ | docs/announce/2014.01.md:
19:19 dalek rakudo/nom: Add more Moar to release announcement
19:19 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e7280d019f
19:19 timotimo psch: if you put a space after the RT, you'll get a link for all of us in the chat, too: # RT 99732
19:19 timotimo actually: RT #99732
19:19 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=99732
19:19 psch timotimo: last time i did it with a # befo... yes
19:19 PerlJam Someone vet the Moar stuff I just added
19:19 psch i forgot this time
19:20 psch my point being: this seems fixed, at least if the $_ semantic inside the while is corrent
19:20 psch *correct
19:20 timotimo PerlJam: i'd suggest using moarvm.org instead of the long github link
19:20 timotimo especially as that's currently a redirect to github
19:20 pmichaud It's a little weird that footnote [^2] comes before [^1].
19:21 timotimo oh hey pm :)
19:21 * masak vets
19:22 timotimo i'm glad you got a codename suggestion for next month's release already; that way i won't have such a hard time :P
19:22 [Coke] raydiak: I think you need 1) a list of .t files across modules, 2) a script that prove can use that will say "oh, this .t is in *this* module, I'll chdir there...".
19:22 pmichaud I don't follow the "Plano implies three dimensions" reference, though.
19:22 pmichaud s/reference/meme/ #whatever
19:22 masak PerlJam: looks good.
19:23 [Coke] plane is 2, I get that far...
19:23 masak I'm not sure there is more to it than that.
19:23 masak a plane is usually embedded in a 3-space, I guess...
19:24 dalek rakudo/nom: 0a9e40e | duff++ | docs/announce/2014.01.md:
19:24 dalek rakudo/nom: reorder footnotes and use moarvm.org
19:24 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0a9e40edb2
19:24 pmichaud change text to "because Rakudo now exists in multiple dimensions"  maybe?
19:24 PerlJam how about we paste in the IRC discussion from earlier and say "Plano" was *waaaay* better than "Three Blind Mice"  :)
19:24 masak :)
19:24 pmichaud PerlJam: +1
19:24 pmichaud maybe as a footnote / postscript
19:24 psch there's 11 american Planos and 1 croatian Plano and the digit sum of 12 is 3...?
19:25 pmichaud well, I'm only familiar with the Plano I live in :)
19:25 [Coke] I don't think we need to 'splain it.
19:25 pmichaud Maybe also put in a note saying that we're looking for pm group names to use in future releases.  :)
19:26 pmichaud *Or*, perhaps this is the point at which we adopt an entirely new naming scheme.
19:26 PerlJam pmichaud: +1 to that!
19:26 pmichaud since we're now multi-backend with n>2
19:26 PerlJam (new naming scheme)
19:26 moritz how about simply dropping the naming scheme?
19:26 timotimo moritz: i'll have a short script that'll prepare strings for all combinations of backends that'll be minimized; you'd have to run it once for each rebuild. it's in p6. is that acceptable?
19:26 PerlJam moritz: And that's even better IMHO
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19:27 moritz timotimo: prepare strings? what strings?
19:27 moritz timotimo: I feel I'm missing a bit of context here
19:27 pmichaud We could also keep the names but drop the explanation.
19:27 timotimo rakudo-{parrot, jvm, moar} c8ec1d
19:27 timotimo for example
19:27 dalek rakudo/nom: f4b0fb4 | masak++ | docs/announce/2014.01.md:
19:27 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/announce/2014.01.md] explain "Plano" better
19:27 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f4b0fb4f8d
19:28 masak pmichaud, PerlJam: ^
19:28 timotimo instead of rakudo-parrot c8ec1d, rakudo-jvm c8ec1d, rakudo-moar c8ec1d
19:28 masak didn't go with the footnote/postscript idea. this feels better. I could still change it, though.
19:28 pmichaud release manager gets to decide :)
19:28 [Coke] my 2¢: I hate release names.
19:29 timotimo i don't care much about them
19:29 pmichaud proposed release name:  "Coke hates release names."
19:29 * PerlJam reiterates ...
19:29 PerlJam * PerlJam wishes we would do away with the names as that ends up being the hardest part of releasing  :)
19:29 pmichaud It is good to be able to talk about previous milestone releases, though... e.g., "Beijing"
19:30 benabik Perhaps we should just start naming releases after people who hate release names.
19:30 masak I like the release names.
19:30 masak I don't mind looking for a pm group and a rationale.
19:30 masak it bonds us together somewhat.
19:30 PerlJam pmichaud: but being able to say the 2011.07 release gives more information
19:31 pmichaud PerlJam: yes, if I can remember that date.
19:31 lue same goes for the release name :)
19:31 PerlJam If it's significant, you'll remember it :)
19:31 pmichaud It's much easier for me to remember Beijing than to remember 2011.08 (and wonder if it really was 2011.08 or 2011.07 or 2012.08 or ...)
19:31 PerlJam Or maybe *only* name significant releases?
19:31 pmichaud We don't always know a-priori which ones are significant.
19:32 PerlJam Well, mostly we get to decide if we think they will be.
19:32 PerlJam and if they become so after-the-fact, we can post-name it.
19:33 pmichaud I'm with masak++ ... I like having the names.  I don't know that we need to continue with .pm groups, but there are bound to be more for a while yet.
19:33 PerlJam masak: re bonding ... is that like a shared pain?  :)
19:35 masak PerlJam: heh.
19:36 lue We could just use a random town name picker in the future :)
19:36 masak angularjs has pretty cool release names. they look generated.
19:36 PerlJam "What do you want to name the release?"  "I dunno, what do *you* want to name the release?"
19:36 masak we shouldn't copy them straight off, but it's an idea for the future.
19:37 lue .oO(Relase #87 "Frotzlexity")
19:37 PerlJam maybe we just pick a name and vet it here with whoever is around and go with it.  No "scheme"
19:38 geekosaur generate random syllables
19:38 benabik Train a Markov chain with the #perl6 backlog.
19:39 psch SORRY
19:39 pmichaud use the #perl6 backlog but strip out common words.
19:39 pmichaud leaving only the weird words as potential names.
19:39 skids Pick a city from Middle Earth and pretend there was a Perl con there.
19:39 pmichaud "Whipuptitude" and "Manipulexity" ought to be release names somewhere.  :-)
19:40 PerlJam skids: why do we have to pretend?  ;)
19:40 timotimo i think whipuptitude is for when NativeCall is on all three backends (or four at that point?) and manipulexity when we have everything for macros
19:40 PerlJam timotimo: sounds good to me.
19:40 lue timotimo: I like that.
19:40 skids Because actually having a BOF session with the elven delegates about unicode representations of their alphabet would be hard.
19:41 skids And forget the dwaves and their runish hyperoperators.  They are just cantankorous.
19:44 lue I don't think we'll get to talk to the dwarves. They still haven't pulled the lever to the drawbridge :/
19:44 pmichaud hah!
19:44 pmichaud This month's release should be "TimToady"
19:44 pmichaud since we now really do have more than one way to do it :-)
19:45 pmichaud (can also use TMTOWTDI to avoid the nick pun)
19:45 benabik There's more than two ways to do it?
19:45 pmichaud TimTwody
19:46 masak we should ask quietfanatic to change to that nick :P
19:46 PerlJam heh
19:47 pmichaud I'm afk -- more housework and prep for later.
19:48 pmichaud I'm okay with adjusting the naming scheme by consensus
19:48 pmichaud bbl
19:49 skids .oO(If Apple can get away with it...)
19:49 masak I think we can adjust the naming scheme, but we should do it at some major shift into a "new era" for Rakudo.
19:49 moritz moar areas?
19:49 PerlJam like the introduction of a new VM?
19:49 jnthn The point when we've a multi-backend star, maybe...
19:49 timotimo introduction of rakudo into the browser? ;)
19:50 masak jnthn: yes, maybe.
19:50 timotimo that'd be fine by me, jnthn
19:50 timotimo how likely is february moar star? :)
19:50 timotimo because february jvm star sounds quite likely
19:50 jnthn Dunno. I've no idea how bad the ecosystem looks on Moar so far.
19:50 moritz does moar have nativecall?
19:50 jnthn I know we've work to do on NativeCall. The debugger shouldn't be hard.
19:50 timotimo moritz: arnsholt noted it'd mostly be copy-pasting from parrot
19:51 jnthn moritz: Well, we've got dyncall into the build; not sure how far along the REPRs are, but we can...what timotimo said :)
19:51 PerlJam Still sounds more like April to me (for moar R*)
19:51 timotimo oh, really?
19:51 timotimo well, sockets  will be big, too
19:51 jnthn I may take on sockets when I do the Moar IO do-over
19:51 jnthn I'll put in the async IO and I want to get async sockets in too.
19:52 jnthn With an API that works on Moar and JVM.
19:52 jnthn s/may/almsot certainly will/
19:53 timotimo that sounds lovely
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20:02 FROGGS .u ARMENIAN DRAM SIGN
20:02 yoleaux U+058F ARMENIAN DRAM SIGN [Sc] (֏)
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20:06 masak ok, the NQP release can now be found at http://masak.org/carl/tmp/nqp-2014.01.tar.gz -- could I ask for someone's help (pmichaud? jnthn? tadzik? moritz? PerlJam?) to upload it to the real place?
20:06 masak (I don't currently have the SSH key)
20:07 masak besides the uploading step, this concludes the NQP release process. back to the Rakudo release process.
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20:07 timotimo ✔ NQP Release prepared
20:12 PerlJam masak: uploaded.
20:13 dalek rakudo/nom: 560d347 | masak++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
20:13 dalek rakudo/nom: [release] bump NQP revision
20:13 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/560d34731e
20:13 dalek rakudo/nom: 2834f75 | masak++ | VERSION:
20:13 dalek rakudo/nom: [release] bump VERSION
20:13 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2834f75169
20:13 masak PerlJam++
20:14 masak PerlJam: hope you're around for the Rakudo .tar.gz in an hour or so ;)
20:14 Mouq joined #perl6
20:15 masak there's no 'realclean' target in the Makefile.
20:15 masak docs/release_guide.pod:162 expects there to be one.
20:16 PerlJam huh, the 2014.01 release of nqp is about 100K smaller than the 2013.12 release.  Until now we've had steady growth.
20:16 masak interesting.
20:17 timotimo very cool! :)
20:17 timotimo the stage0s may have shrunken
20:17 timotimo i think since last month we got rid of base64 in the moarvm stage0s
20:18 masak oh!
20:18 PerlJam masak: Are you sure there's no "realclean"?  I've got one.
20:20 PerlJam (well ... I had one until I ran "make realclean"  ;)
20:20 skids now that's clean!
20:21 timotimo :D
20:21 * psch .oO( sub undo { ::undo := Nil } )
20:21 psch huh, could that actually work? obviously not like that
20:22 psch r: sub foo { &OUTER::foo := sub { 1 } }; foo.say; foo.say # seems like it?
20:22 camelia rakudo-parrot bbbebb, rakudo-jvm bbbebb, rakudo-moar bbbebb: OUTPUT«sub() { ... }␤1␤»
20:23 * psch realizes more and more how little he actually knows about perl6
20:24 masak psch: what are you trying to accomplish?
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20:24 psch masak: i was just thinking, seeing as realclean removes it self, if perl6 can have a function that undefined itself
20:24 psch which apparently it can
20:25 psch s/it self/itself/
20:25 psch but i might misunderstand camelia here, explainations welcome :)
20:28 timotimo huh, here moar seems to have gotten stuck trying to get .combinations
20:28 masak psch: no, seems you got it right.
20:28 masak psch: but I'm kinda surprised that works.
20:28 masak wonder how that interacts with optimizations.
20:29 jnthn I think it's a bug that it works
20:29 jnthn The optimizer woulda been free to inline it
20:30 lue jnthn: that might be considered an optimizer bug in that case, were it to happen :)
20:30 jnthn lue: No, buy spec the optimier is allowed to inline it.
20:31 jnthn *by
20:31 jnthn If you want to suppress inlining you need to say "use soft;" or so
20:31 lue or perl6 --optimize=0 , right?
20:32 jnthn Well, you could do that too, but that means you're depending on everybody running your code with --optimize=0
20:32 jnthn Not to mention giving up every other optimization.
20:32 masak Perl 6 is already fairly geared towards static subroutines, which is why it's surprising that it works.
20:32 lue oh, I thought 'use soft' would mean the same thing
20:33 timotimo obviously there's a bit more performance to had that way?
20:33 jnthn lue: No, use soft just gives up some things
20:34 timotimo r: print "a" for ([<a>], [<b>], [<c>], [<a b>], [<b c>], [<a c>], [<a b c>]).combinations
20:34 camelia rakudo-parrot f4b0fb, rakudo-jvm f4b0fb: OUTPUT«No such method 'combinations' for invocant of type 'Parcel'␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
20:34 camelia ..rakudo-moar f4b0fb: OUTPUT«Cannot find method 'combinations'␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
20:34 timotimo r: print "a" for ([<a>], [<b>], [<c>], [<a b>], [<b c>], [<a c>], [<a b c>]).list.combinations
20:34 camelia rakudo-parrot f4b0fb, rakudo-jvm f4b0fb, rakudo-moar f4b0fb: OUTPUT«aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa​aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa​aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa»
20:35 timotimo r: my %foo{Any}; %foo{$_} = 1  for ([<a>], [<b>], [<c>], [<a b>], [<b c>], [<a c>], [<a b c>]); print "a" for %foo.keys.combinations
20:35 camelia rakudo-parrot f4b0fb, rakudo-jvm f4b0fb, rakudo-moar f4b0fb: OUTPUT«aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa​aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa​aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa»
20:35 PerlJam masak: are you updating the release guide to talk about jvm or moar?  It still seems highly parrot-centric
20:35 timotimo so ... what am i doing wrong locally?
20:35 PerlJam (maybe that's best to do after the release)
20:35 timotimo maybe i'll just have to get the newest version or something
20:45 masak PerlJam: yeah, I'm not updating it now.
20:45 masak just pointing out points where it doesn't work.
20:46 masak make: *** No rule to make target `stresstest'.  Stop.
20:46 masak there's a p-stresstest
20:48 PerlJam p-stresstest only exists if you've listed parrot as one of the backends
20:49 jeffreykegler left #perl6
20:49 masak I suppose I must have, at some point.
20:49 masak as in --backends=parrot
20:50 masak so yeah, the build instructions are not in sync with reality.
20:50 masak I suggest fixing after release.
20:51 PerlJam yep, sounds sane
20:51 PerlJam masak++  :)
20:57 diakopter wut happened in kiev
20:57 masak diakopter: lots of fire and protest.
20:57 masak and strife :(
21:00 colomon :(
21:04 masak govt there is calling the demonstrators terrorists.
21:04 locsmif not just there
21:06 diakopter sry for OT
21:09 colomon doesn't seem to have made the headlines on CNN.com?  :\
21:09 psch colomon: click "International"
21:09 * colomon is sure Justin Bieber's legal status is vastly more important.
21:09 psch it was there at least
21:10 psch not sure if it still is
21:10 PerlJam colomon: if you want real news, you need to read bbc.com.
21:10 colomon PerlJam: honestly, I don't much want real news.  or the crap cnn.com covers.
21:10 tadzik I watched an episode of DS9 yesterday, about a military guy taking over the entire earth because of a terrorist threat. To make it more relevant, a name "Snowden" occured in the episode
21:11 colomon psch: if you click "Ukraine" at the top, you get there.
21:11 itz_ is there any short cut to build all backends at once?
21:11 timotimo prn: say "hello"
21:11 timotimo itz_: of course, --backend=parrot,jvm,moar --gen-moar --gen-parrot
21:11 timotimo perl6: say "hello"
21:11 camelia rakudo-parrot f4b0fb, rakudo-jvm f4b0fb, rakudo-moar f4b0fb, niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«hello␤»
21:11 colomon Bieber still more prominent.
21:12 itz_ I was thinking of --backend=all :)
21:12 itz_ lazy
21:12 tadzik well volunteered :P
21:12 * psch .oO( --everything )
21:12 moritz itz_: shouldn't be hard for you to patch :-)
21:12 lue .oO( perl Configure.pl --* )
21:12 itz_ :)
21:13 psch lue: that would clash with shell expansion, wouldn't it?
21:13 lue whatever.
21:13 jnthn Is that "my eyes are closed 'cus it's snowing"?
21:13 PerlJam itz_: I would suggest using some special designation for things that aren't real VMs  either ALL CAPS or some symbology.
21:14 TimToady just type * at the command line
21:14 TimToady it *might* run Configure.pl
21:14 PerlJam lue: was that an intentional pun?  :)
21:14 lue PerlJam: yes, of course :)
21:14 jnthn Yeah, if you do --backend=all, then somebody will go and make an allvm :)
21:14 lue $ perl6 -e 'say @*ARGS.perl' --*
21:14 lue Array.new("--*")
21:14 tadzik mostvm
21:15 lue Apparently it doesn't hurt. Hm.
21:15 jnthn OK, I have some time for Perl stuffs...what to do...
21:15 tadzik starts up on moar, and warms up jvm just in case
21:15 diakopter jnthn: specializer/ :)
21:15 lue Apparently, putting a dash in front of the asterisk stops shell expansion. So we could have perl Configure.pl --*  :)
21:15 jnthn diakopter: but SSA haaarrd :P
21:16 TimToady though in my nom directory it ends up printing out the 12 days of Christmas, since 12days sorts first :)
21:16 diakopter do it in reverse then
21:16 timotimo jnthn: write a small amount of code to subclass JavaBootInterop inside rakudo and give me that so i can continue my work? :)
21:16 jnthn timotimo: uh...we already have a subclass of JavaBootInterop in Rakudo?
21:16 jnthn timotimo: src\vm\jvm\runtime\org\perl6\​rakudo\RakudoJavaInterop.java
21:17 timotimo last time i tried that it didn't seem to want to work
21:17 timotimo is it hooked up to an nqp:: op?
21:17 TimToady btw, http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Fractran#Perl_6 fails under moar for some reason
21:17 jnthn timotimo: Hm, good question...
21:17 jnthn timotimo: It's used when you say "use such.enterprise:from<java>;"
21:18 timotimo ah. hum.
21:18 timotimo that'll be a good hint
21:18 jnthn timotimo: ah, nqp::jvmrakudointerop()
21:19 jnthn TimToady: Explodes, or wrong answer?
21:19 TimToady wrong answer, 2 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15...
21:19 timotimo i think our % operator with rats may still be busted in some kind of way?
21:19 FROGGS TimToady: on my box too
21:19 FROGGS and it hangs after that
21:19 TimToady well, you have to ^C it
21:19 TimToady the final loop is over 0..* :)
21:20 FROGGS gah
21:20 FROGGS :o)
21:20 TimToady which, by the way, I couldn't write as .say for FT2
21:20 TimToady because for some reason it tries to calculate the entire sequence first...
21:20 [Coke] r: my int $a = 2**50;
21:20 camelia rakudo-jvm f4b0fb, rakudo-moar f4b0fb: ( no output )
21:20 camelia ..rakudo-parrot f4b0fb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Error while compiling op bind: Cannot infer type from '1125899906842624'␤»
21:21 [Coke] masak: ^^
21:22 TimToady but I suspect the latter is just for loops not being correctly lazy
21:22 jnthn TimToady: I'm suspecting it tries to batch it
21:22 jnthn TimToady: Unconditionally
21:22 masak [Coke]: ugh. feel free to report.
21:22 TimToady yes, well, it'll take a while to generate the first 100000 members of *that* sequence...
21:22 jnthn yes ;)
21:23 itz_ if (defined $options{backends}) {
21:23 itz_ +        $options{backends} = join ",",keys %known_backends if $options{backends} eq 'ALL';
21:23 * TimToady wonders what we could do about overbatching...
21:24 jnthn TimToady: I think Pm may well have thought this one through a bit.
21:24 jnthn TimToady: Not that more thinking from you isn't also a good idea ;)
21:24 TimToady give or take a negative here or there
21:26 ggoebel1112 joined #perl6
21:26 TimToady but if it were just batching, why wouldn't it do the same for FT2[$_]?
21:26 * jnthn reproduces the ft bug locally...
21:27 jnthn TimToady: I think it's MapIter that batches
21:27 jnthn TimToady: oh, but you have a map...hm
21:27 * FROGGS realizes that he does not understand that code
21:27 TimToady well, that bit of the code is grondilu++'s
21:28 jnthn TimToady: Me either, I'm just gonna try and make it work :P
21:28 jnthn uh, FROGGS
21:28 timotimo FROGGS: why? it seems understandable to me :P
21:28 FROGGS timotimo: maybe I am lacking some sort of CS degree? I dunno
21:28 timotimo hah :)
21:29 timotimo r: say 16.msb; say 16.lsb;
21:29 camelia rakudo-parrot f4b0fb, rakudo-jvm f4b0fb, rakudo-moar f4b0fb: OUTPUT«4␤4␤»
21:29 FROGGS what does  map (* * n).narrow, LIST ?
21:29 timotimo that's pretty handy!
21:29 timotimo well, * * n is the whatevercode that multiplies with n
21:29 timotimo and narrow is our method to try to get the narrowest numeral type for the number
21:30 timotimo r: .perl.say for 10.0, 10.0.narrow, 10.0e, 10.0e.narrow;
21:30 TimToady also, I'm pretty sure that .lsb == .msb is not going to be the most efficient way to detect a power of two
21:30 camelia rakudo-parrot f4b0fb, rakudo-jvm f4b0fb, rakudo-moar f4b0fb: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Confusedâ�¤at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤------> [32m.perl.say for 10.0, 10.0.narrow, 10.0[33mâ��[31me, 10.0e.narrow;[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤      â€¦Â»
21:30 timotimo TimToady: i remember some really neat trick from the hacker's delight; i think you have to xor it with the number itself - 1 or something
21:30 masak darn, train will arrive soon, and I'm still just stresstesting S12...
21:30 timotimo so 100000 xor 011111?
21:30 timotimo that's not quite it, though
21:31 Rix joined #perl6
21:31 TimToady well, I tried +& and looked for 0, but that doesn't work
21:31 timotimo oh, that was my next thought
21:32 jnthn masak: Why do the delays never happen when you wnat them...
21:32 TimToady oh, maybe the precedence is wrong
21:32 timotimo that would probably be it
21:32 FROGGS ahh, I think I understand...
21:32 timotimo r: say 16 +& 15
21:32 masak jnthn: hey, don't jinx my train in the last 10 minutes! :P
21:32 camelia rakudo-parrot f4b0fb, rakudo-jvm f4b0fb, rakudo-moar f4b0fb: OUTPUT«0␤»
21:32 timotimo r: say 16 +& 16 - 1
21:32 camelia rakudo-parrot f4b0fb, rakudo-jvm f4b0fb, rakudo-moar f4b0fb: OUTPUT«15␤»
21:32 timotimo yup, it's the precedence.
21:32 jnthn r: sub x(\n) { say (^5).map: (* * n).narrow }; .&x for ^2
21:32 camelia rakudo-moar f4b0fb: OUTPUT«0 0 0 0 0␤0 0 0 0 0␤»
21:32 camelia ..rakudo-parrot f4b0fb, rakudo-jvm f4b0fb: OUTPUT«0 0 0 0 0␤0 1 2 3 4␤»
21:33 TimToady yeah, it was precedence
21:34 jnthn ah...nested whatever curries don't correctly nested their closures...
21:34 jnthn Which we must mystically get away with on other backends
21:34 jnthn No doubt at some performance cost.
21:34 grondilu TimToady: to detect a power of two you can test whether the logarithm in base 2 is integer
21:35 jnthn Moar just get's 'em wrong so there's no choice but to fix it properly... :)
21:35 FROGGS ahh, I love that when jnthn++ says these sentences :o)
21:35 timotimo oh, huh
21:35 timotimo FROGGS: now there's something i realise i don't understand :)
21:35 masak detrain &
21:35 FROGGS timotimo: do tell :o)
21:35 timotimo how exactly moar fails there. what the closure nesting stuff means
21:35 jnthn timotimo: I think you worked on whatever_curry recently? :)
21:35 timotimo yes, i did
21:36 timotimo that's what makes me scratch my head even more :P
21:36 jnthn timotimo: I'm almost certain you didn't introduce the issue though, I think it predates it...
21:36 jnthn timotimo: Can you explain what the chain stuff is doing?
21:36 timotimo i only changed whatever handling if there's a chain
21:36 Guest1338 joined #perl6
21:36 grondilu an other way would be .base(2) ~~ /^10*$/
21:37 TimToady I suspect the AND method is the fastest
21:37 colomon grondilu: if you've got an Int, you can detect powers of 2 with !($n +& ($n - 1))
21:37 timotimo well, it remembers all the arguments to the operator, remembering exactly which ones were whatever-arguments, if it's a chain so that one level up if it finds such a chained whatevercode it can flatten it out properly
21:37 colomon … which someone already posted back there
21:37 grondilu oh, ok
21:38 TimToady and, in fact, the RC entry is already updated for
21:38 * colomon needed this for ABC
21:39 jnthn timotimo: Yeah, I think I see it
21:40 * TimToady thinks about shouting "First bug!"
21:40 dayangkun joined #perl6
21:42 [Coke] anyone care to volunteer to give feedback on a "what's perl6" presentation to a handful of p5 folks?
21:43 timotimo i'll volunteer to look at it :P
21:44 TimToady should we have lower standards because it's only a handful?
21:44 tadzik we're a handful too :)
21:44 TimToady quite a handful
21:44 hoelzro I would look
21:45 TimToady what is Perl 6, anyway?
21:45 tadzik I'd happily welcome a second handful
21:45 * moritz would love to know that too
21:45 psch a DWIM-y pile of *..?
21:46 FROGGS nah, it is the last language one learns :o)
21:46 tadzik then you just tolerate the rest :P
21:46 FROGGS yeah...
21:46 TimToady It'll either kill you or cure you...
21:46 * psch is painfully reminded of all those accidentally omitted returns at $phpdayjob
21:47 FROGGS psch: exactly
21:47 FROGGS but there are worse things out there...
21:47 [Coke] (lower standard) yes.!
21:47 FROGGS my colleagues hack to hack ABAP!
21:47 PerlJam Perl 6 is kind of like a FPGA only the "gates" are way more powerful
21:47 diakopter -_+
21:47 TimToady other than the field, the gates, and the array, that's pretty accurate
21:48 hoelzro [Coke]: are you going to show 1..* examples of cross pollination between Perl 5 and Perl 6?
21:48 PerlJam :-P
21:48 diakopter field lol
21:48 [Coke] well, smartmatch was the first one that came to mind. :P
21:48 hoelzro heh
21:48 TimToady alas, that one didn't work out so well
21:48 PerlJam yeah, it's always good to start off with a bad example :)
21:48 hoelzro I'm thinking use feature qw(say state); use Moose
21:49 [Coke] but yes, specifics are good.
21:49 tadzik it's a kind of a... field
21:49 TimToady // worked out better
21:49 araujo joined #perl6
21:49 bluescreen10 joined #perl6
21:49 TimToady and maybe some of the parameter backports
21:50 skids r: say not !0 +& !-1 # 0 is not a power of 2 :-)
21:50 camelia rakudo-parrot 2834f7, rakudo-jvm 2834f7, rakudo-moar 2834f7: OUTPUT«True␤»
21:51 TimToady where'd those extra !s come from?
21:51 [Coke] timotimo++ convinced me: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1lsga8bGQK0​r0v0OCv0Iw360nCWu3MCgpWTTjROXohNQ/edit?usp=sharing is the link, anyone can comment.
21:51 [Coke] GAH. I see the hordes joining.
21:51 colomon skids: it's 2** -Inf   ;)
21:52 [Coke] HAHAHA. I love anonymous llama and anonymous chinchilla.
21:52 jnthn TimToady: Is this the right (start of the) output: 2 15 825 725 1925 2275 425 390 330 290 770 910 170
21:52 [Coke] I only have 30m. so there are things that are intentionally brief.
21:53 TimToady jnthn: yes
21:53 skids oh. duh.  well anyway It was just pedantry.
21:53 jnthn TimToady: good :)
21:54 PerlJam [Coke]: on slide 11: "In Perl 5, you have a limited # of types."  I'm not sure that's true or what you mean by that.
21:54 colomon [Coke]: page 14, what's the last line got to do with it?
21:54 diakopter pedantrics
21:54 skids diakopter++ for meta-pedantrics
21:55 jnthn [Coke]: On 8, not sure if worth calling out that NQP is a subset of Perl 6 ideal for compiler writing, to give an idea of what subset
21:56 jnthn [Coke]: In the "everything is an object" on 10, I tend to express that as "Everything can be treated as an object" these days
21:57 TimToady (4/6).Rat # (stringifies via Num)    <-- I don't think this is true
21:57 jnthn [Coke]: On 13, I'd put { ... } there rather than the ; after the signature; it confused me at first
21:57 TimToady also, why .Rat something that already is
21:57 [Coke] PerlJam: I was thinking: scalar, array, hash, glob (and a few others)
21:58 [Coke] jnthn: updated 8 & 10.
21:59 TimToady assigning 2**70 to an int ought to blow up, not produce 0
21:59 PerlJam [Coke]: I'd probably differentiate via Perl 5 - type systems on CPAN,  Perl 6 - built-in type system.  (or something like that)
22:00 TimToady slide 15, superstitious semicolons
22:00 psch [Coke]: i feel slide 25 should be somewhere before 24, maybe right before 21. you're introducing sub infix:<hi> before mentioning sub *fix:*
22:00 TimToady a rule is a method, really, not a sub
22:01 TimToady and the comparison to lex/yacc is kinda wrong
22:01 [Coke] TimToady: removed the comment.
22:01 [Coke] colomon: last line is showing you can invoke via locals with the same name as the params.
22:01 dalek rakudo/nom: 75f0284 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Actions.nqp:
22:01 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix code-gen of nested whatever curries.
22:01 dalek rakudo/nom:
22:01 dalek rakudo/nom: Makes this construct work on MoarVM, and may be more efficient on
22:01 dalek rakudo/nom: other backends.
22:01 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/75f0284857
22:02 treehug88 joined #perl6
22:02 dalek rakudo/nom: fa1e956 | moritz++ | Configure.pl:
22:02 dalek rakudo/nom: [Configure] --backends=all, itz_++
22:02 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fa1e956a01
22:02 [Coke] TimToady: leftover .Rat removed. CNP issue, I thin.
22:02 jnthn TimToady: 75f0284 should fix it
22:02 timotimo jnthn: will that still make it into our current release?
22:02 jnthn timotimo: Doubt it.
22:02 PerlJam [Coke]: slide 16 also seems out of place (or is an opportunity for more context wrt Grammars and Regex)
22:02 timotimo OK
22:03 jnthn timotimo: I think masak may have already tagged it
22:03 [Coke] PerlJam: wanted to mention rules. will really not have time to delve into them.
22:03 jnthn timotimo: Or at least, be spectesting what he intends to tag/release.
22:03 PerlJam [Coke]: okie.
22:03 timotimo right.
22:03 timotimo fair enough
22:03 * timotimo is always on the bleeding edge anyway :)
22:03 jnthn Just means we've got our first ChangeLog entry for next month :P
22:03 timotimo oh, btw. a person from karlsruhe.pm is going to make sure soon that debian will have all dependencies of moarvm packaged properly
22:03 PerlJam [Coke]: how much time will you have?  (I've been thinking either you've got lots of time or you're going to cover alot of stuff in a short time)
22:04 jnthn timotimo: oh, cool :)
22:06 [Coke] PerlJam: 30m
22:06 PerlJam [Coke]: on slide 20, the juxtaposition of ^20 and a list that goes from 1 to 20 weirds me out  :)
22:06 timotimo oh, whoops :)
22:06 [Coke] PerlJam: yah, but then I can talk briefly about 0-indexing.
22:07 TimToady slide 23, comment should start at 0, not 1
22:08 timotimo [Coke]: for syntax highlighting, would you prefer shades of gray or colors?
22:08 [Coke] TimToady: fixed.
22:08 [Coke] timotimo: never used the projector at this place. something contrasty.
22:08 [Coke] ... I feel compelled to add a note about the community now. :)
22:09 PerlJam [Coke]: do you want to mention Z and S on slide 24?
22:10 timotimo colors actually don't look good on white background i don't think
22:10 timotimo boldface looks bad, too
22:12 panchiniak joined #perl6
22:12 TimToady Z maybe, but S is probably not worth mentioning
22:12 grondilu this thing on google docs when we can see other people editing a document in real time is pretty cool.  I wish github would do that.
22:12 [Coke] timotimo: should I change the background color?
22:12 timotimo [Coke]: only if you want to :)
22:12 [Coke] PerlJam: Sure.
22:12 PerlJam S is obscure, but maybe that's why it needs to be mentioned ;)
22:12 TimToady not in an overview
22:12 japhb joined #perl6
22:13 timotimo i'm actually not sure how to do the coloring without doing it by hand
22:13 PerlJam I dunno ... I'd at least say "and some other cool meta-ops are ..."
22:13 TimToady much more important to get the bikeshed the right color
22:13 PerlJam and then "for more information, check out the synopses"
22:14 PerlJam [Coke]: oh, you should have a slide with some useful links
22:14 timotimo i'm not sure about "parsed to QAST (NQP)", actually
22:14 PerlJam or maybe just "Everything is linked from perl6.org"
22:15 [Coke] PerlJam: added urls on #30
22:15 PerlJam yeah, I see that now :)
22:15 [Coke] timotimo: would a gray work?
22:16 PerlJam I was thinking you could put the slide with links last so that you could leave it up during any question/answer period
22:17 * masak is back online
22:17 masak up to S32 now.
22:17 PerlJam [Coke]++
22:18 [Coke] perljam: good point.
22:18 TimToady needs a camelia, to flush out the patriarchs
22:19 masak jnthn--'s jinx made the train stop completely :/
22:20 jnthn masak: ...what?!
22:20 jnthn masak: fail...did it break down?
22:21 TimToady oh, there's a camelia at the beginning
22:21 [Coke] TimToady: I gotcher back.
22:22 PerlJam There's enough white space on each slide that a small camelia could appear on every one.  :)
22:22 diakopter r: »ö«'
22:22 [Coke] the meeting is in about an hour, btw. thanks for the last minute feedback, MOST appreciated.
22:22 camelia rakudo-jvm 2834f7: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
22:22 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 2834f7, rakudo-moar 2834f7: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Bogus statementâ�¤at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤------> [32m<BOL>[33mâ��[31m»ö«'[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        statement listâ�¤        prefix or termâ�¤        p…»
22:22 masak jnthn: it stopped in le middle of nowhere, because there was only one usable track, and other trains got precedence.
22:22 jnthn masak: d'oh
22:22 timotimo [Coke]: you're very welcome :)
22:22 diakopter heh jvm timeout
22:22 masak jnthn: SJ...
22:23 jnthn Shouldn't Jinx....
22:23 treehug88 joined #perl6
22:23 jnthn Shaln't Journey
22:23 [Coke] PerlJam: done.
22:24 diakopter Slight Jolt
22:25 woolfy1 joined #perl6
22:26 PerlJam [Coke]: heh, now the first slide looks a little odd with 2 Camelias  :)
22:27 timotimo [Coke]: i made a copy to try out the dark theme with code "highlighting"
22:27 [Coke] timotimo++
22:27 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
22:28 [Coke] PerlJam: how about now?
22:28 timotimo [Coke]: have a look and see if i should continue working on it
22:28 PerlJam better.
22:28 timotimo it should be shared to you, too
22:28 airdisa joined #perl6
22:29 [Coke] timotimo: I'm not sure. anyone else have luck with white on black presentations with projectors of dubious origin?
22:30 timotimo worst case if it don't look right, switch over to the other copy :)
22:30 [Coke] ok. there have been some changes since you forked, I think.
22:30 masak ok, I'm on the integration tests now.
22:30 [Coke] masak++ #release work
22:30 btyler joined #perl6
22:30 [Coke] masak: oh! what number release is this?
22:31 masak read the release announcement! :P
22:31 masak (#72)
22:31 PerlJam [Coke]: Good luck and have fun with your presentation
22:31 jnthn [Coke]: Hope it goes well!
22:32 masak [Coke]: good luck!
22:32 [Coke] masak: added note about 72 releases.
22:32 [Coke] r: say 72 / 12
22:32 camelia rakudo-jvm 2834f7: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
22:32 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 2834f7, rakudo-moar 2834f7: OUTPUT«6␤»
22:32 masak Result: PASS
22:34 [Coke] meeting is here: http://www.techvalleycenterofgravity.com/
22:34 masak Rakudo tarball now available at http://masak.org/carl/tmp/rakudo-2014.01.tar.gz -- PerlJam, still there? ready for another upload? :)
22:34 dalek rakudo/nom: 79079be | (Pepe Schwarz)++ | src/ (2 files):
22:34 dalek rakudo/nom: Added X::TypeCheck::Argument and means for the Optimizer to throw typed exceptions.
22:34 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/79079be902
22:34 dalek rakudo/nom: 6c83d6c | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.nqp:
22:34 dalek rakudo/nom: Correct private method exception construction.
22:34 dalek rakudo/nom:
22:34 dalek rakudo/nom: Also remove "not sure how to get it" note; you can get it with:
22:34 dalek rakudo/nom:     class A { trusts GLOBAL; }; A!A::nope();
22:34 dalek rakudo/nom: But only with --optimize=3 at present.
22:34 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6c83d6c08c
22:34 dalek rakudo/nom: 743ebf7 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.nqp:
22:34 dalek rakudo/nom: Replace comment with better explanation.
22:34 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/743ebf710e
22:34 timotimo my glob this is strenuous :P
22:34 masak arrrgh!
22:34 masak who *commits* during release engineering!?
22:35 PerlJam masak: aye, I'll upload it
22:35 diakopter let alone pushes
22:35 jnthn masak: Somebody who knows the release engineer is (a) using git, and (b) knows how to make a branch :P
22:35 masak yo, I'm going to tag the commit I tested/tarballed, just so you know.
22:35 masak for all I care, your commits are post-release.
22:36 masak you shoulda made 'em yesterday.
22:36 PerlJam masak: uploaded.
22:36 jnthn masak: Oh, I fully expected these to go into the Feb release. :)
22:37 jnthn masak: Everything I wanted in the release, I landed *yesterday*. :)
22:37 masak PerlJam: thank you!
22:37 masak jnthn: ok, we are in agreement, then.
22:37 PerlJam It's all about the teamwork!  :)
22:37 [Coke] jnthn++ masak++
22:37 [Coke] PerlJam: what's gonna work?
22:37 [Coke] PerlJam: TEEEEEAMWORK
22:38 masak p6c email sent.
22:39 masak proceeding to defile Wikipedia.
22:39 PerlJam masak++  thanks for being release manager :)
22:39 * PerlJam now wanders off to get some food
22:39 BenGoldberg p6: say pi.Rat.denominator
22:39 masak whoever released December forgot to update the Wikipedia article...
22:39 psch jnthn: should i update the PR for roast with test cases for X::Method::NotFoud(:private)?
22:39 camelia rakudo-jvm 2834f7: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
22:39 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 2834f7, rakudo-moar 2834f7, niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«113␤»
22:40 BenGoldberg Why is that number so small, rather than being close to 2**64 or whatever?
22:40 psch *NotFound
22:40 jnthn psch: Well, thing is that it's a level 3 (off by default) opt at the moment, but given we're post-release...let's make it a level 2 provided it spectests
22:41 jnthn psch: And then yes, a test would be great
22:41 jnthn psch: Do you have a roast commit bit?
22:41 jnthn psch: I can give you one so you don't need to go thorugh the pull request mechanism there...
22:41 psch jnthn: no, i do not
22:41 masak Wikipedia updated.
22:41 masak standing down release status.
22:41 masak feel free to, I dunno, start *committing to rakudo/nom* again... :P
22:42 * masak celebrates with the appropriate amount of going to bed
22:42 masak 'night, #perl6
22:42 diakopter o/
22:42 jnthn masak: 'night o/
22:43 jnthn masak++ # release
22:43 jnthn psch: You do now
22:43 kaare__ joined #perl6
22:44 [Coke] timotimo: made sure all the text was in sync enough.
22:44 psch jnthn: so i'll close the PR and push my changes myself i assume
22:44 jnthn psch: plesae
22:44 jnthn psch: I'll let you know about the NotFound thingy in a moment
22:44 psch i'll do that, thanks
22:49 * [Coke] heads to the locale.
22:50 jnthn psch: haha :) When I turn on the opt, it realizes one of the method calls in S12-methods/private.t can never possible work at compile time.
22:50 jnthn psch: And so refuses to compile the test :)
22:50 jnthn psch: Can I leave updating the test to use eval and look for the typed exception to you?
22:51 dalek rakudo/nom: 717a008 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.nqp:
22:51 dalek rakudo/nom: Add private method devirtualizing to default opts.
22:51 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/717a0083cc
22:51 timotimo [Coke]: how much time do i have left? :)
22:52 jnthn timotimo: I think none, given [Coke] just left... :)
22:52 psch jnthn: i'll have a look at S12-methods/private.t, although i won't promise i can figure it out; i'll get back to you
22:52 timotimo oh no!
22:52 timotimo but he has the internets
22:52 jnthn timotimo: oh, true :)
22:53 jnthn psch: Lemme know if you have trouble; I think it wants to become a throws_like and move the code into an eval or something.
22:54 jnthn clsn: Is https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/235 ready for me to try/review? Or was the fail I found still to fix?
22:56 psch jnthn: afair he commented on PR 237 that he fixed it
22:56 * psch still has to rebuild from fiddling with <.unsp>
22:57 jnthn psch: oh, thanks.
22:57 psch no problem, i got it per mail after all... :)
22:58 timotimo done
22:58 timotimo yay, coke put a thank you onto the last slide for me %)
22:58 timotimo that was fun
23:03 araujo joined #perl6
23:03 timotimo https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1dkndiHaCEH​wVS0UFqO4h63liTSz2zi6ay7d-p7Uey0E/edit?usp=sharing ← this is the one with colors :)
23:05 tgt joined #perl6
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23:13 dalek rakudo/nom: 5527210 | (Mark Shoulson)++ | src/core/ (2 files):
23:13 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix Parameter.perl and do Signature smart-matching.
23:13 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5527210368
23:13 dalek rakudo/nom: 574613b | (Mark Shoulson)++ | src/core/Signature.pm:
23:13 dalek rakudo/nom: Catch another case of Signature matching with slurpies.
23:14 dalek joined #perl6
23:14 jnthn There's two pull requests down :)
23:14 timotimo clsn++ # signature work :)
23:15 timotimo i'm thinking about making introspection easier all the way down by giving gist and perl methods to the BootstrapFoobar classes
23:15 jnthn Indeed
23:15 psch oh boy, i just now notice the extend of my git-mess
23:16 psch i can't push a rebase of rakudo/nom into my own nom because there's a patch missing that doesn't introduce difference... or something like that
23:16 jnthn timotimo: I'd rather not
23:16 timotimo jnthn: fair enough. bloat reasons?
23:16 psch but seeing as everything i have is merge i can just trash my fork and fork again, right?
23:16 psch *merged
23:16 jnthn psch: Yes
23:16 BenGoldberg p6: Rat.new((pi * 2**59).Int, 2**59).denominator.say;
23:17 camelia rakudo-parrot fa1e95, rakudo-jvm fa1e95, rakudo-moar fa1e95, niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«281474976710656␤»
23:17 BenGoldberg p6: Rat.new((pi * 2**60).Int, 2**60).denominator.say;
23:17 timotimo also, you can just make a new branch at those "borked" commits and they'll never be lost
23:17 camelia rakudo-parrot fa1e95, rakudo-moar fa1e95, niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«281474976710656␤»
23:17 camelia ..rakudo-jvm fa1e95: OUTPUT«288230376151711744␤»
23:17 * BenGoldberg doesn't get why jakudo's output is different there.
23:18 jnthn timotimo: That and you can't easily get at such things unless you go meta-programming at least a level deep anyway.
23:18 psch timotimo: the problem is i reverted my commit that should have gone into a branch in nom, and now i cant merge upstream that has that commit into my nom
23:18 jnthn timotimo: All the things you get through .HOW on a Perl 6 object have a .perl and .gist, for example.
23:18 timotimo psch: then git reset --hard nom origin/nom
23:19 psch timotimo: that might have worked, i nuked it already though
23:19 lue BenGoldberg: different math libs, I'm guessing
23:19 jeffreykegler joined #perl6
23:19 psch the problem i had happened when pushing into my fork, in any case, i got a 'rejected' because my HEAD was behind
23:19 timotimo oh
23:19 timotimo then push -f it :)
23:20 psch ...right, that exists
23:20 BenGoldberg The docs for Rat, at http://doc.perl6.org/type/Rat, say that the denominator is supposed to be a UInt64.  It ought to be able to hold values up to 2**63 with no problem.
23:20 timotimo BenGoldberg: i think currently it's falsely implemented as Int64 instead
23:20 BenGoldberg Even so, funny things happening at 2**60 is odd
23:21 timotimo oh, right
23:21 * psch only readily uses -f on rm $dirwithsubdirs, which might actually the worst readily use of -f possible
23:21 psch s/y t/y be t/
23:23 BenGoldberg p: say 281474976710656.log / 2.log
23:23 camelia rakudo-parrot fa1e95: OUTPUT«48␤»
23:23 grondilu perl6: Rat.new(1, 2**60).denominator.say;
23:23 camelia rakudo-parrot fa1e95, rakudo-jvm fa1e95, rakudo-moar fa1e95, niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«1152921504606846976␤»
23:23 grondilu perl6: Rat.new(3**20, 2**60).denominator.say;
23:23 camelia rakudo-parrot fa1e95, rakudo-jvm fa1e95, rakudo-moar fa1e95, niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«1152921504606846976␤»
23:23 lue That reminds me. TimToady: UInt64 looks to me to be unnecessary. There was a discussion here a couple days back on it.
23:24 grondilu perl6: say (pi*2**60).Int;
23:24 camelia rakudo-jvm fa1e95: OUTPUT«3622009729038561300␤»
23:24 camelia ..rakudo-parrot fa1e95, rakudo-moar fa1e95, niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«3622009729038561280␤»
23:25 grondilu BenGoldberg: I think that's your explanation.  The difference is in the numerator, not in the denominator.
23:25 grondilu but it appears in the denominator after simplification of the fraction.
23:26 grondilu perl6: say (pi*2**59).Int;
23:26 camelia rakudo-parrot fa1e95, rakudo-jvm fa1e95, rakudo-moar fa1e95, niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«1811004864519280640␤»
23:27 grondilu see?  all rakudos agree with pi*2**59, but not with pi*2**60
23:28 grondilu which is related with the different ways they store the pi constant, I guess.
23:28 lue p6: say pi
23:28 camelia rakudo-jvm fa1e95: OUTPUT«3.141592653589793␤»
23:28 camelia ..rakudo-parrot fa1e95: OUTPUT«3.14159265358979␤»
23:28 camelia ..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«3.1415926535897931␤»
23:28 camelia ..rakudo-moar fa1e95: OUTPUT«3.141593␤»
23:28 jnthn r: say pi.WHAT
23:28 camelia rakudo-parrot fa1e95, rakudo-jvm fa1e95, rakudo-moar fa1e95: OUTPUT«(Num)␤»
23:28 timotimo i can see which slide coke is on :D
23:29 BenGoldberg perl6: say pi - 3.141592653589793
23:29 camelia rakudo-parrot fa1e95, rakudo-jvm fa1e95, rakudo-moar fa1e95, niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«0␤»
23:29 timotimo at least i think that's what i'm seeing
23:29 lue p: say π
23:29 camelia rakudo-parrot fa1e95: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/HJgZ8TFYRCâ�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    Ï€ used at line 1â�¤â�¤Â»
23:29 BenGoldberg perl6: say pi - 3.14159265
23:29 camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«3.5897929073769319E-09␤»
23:29 camelia ..rakudo-jvm fa1e95: OUTPUT«3.589792907376932E-9␤»
23:29 camelia ..rakudo-parrot fa1e95: OUTPUT«3.58979290737693e-09␤»
23:29 camelia ..rakudo-moar fa1e95: OUTPUT«0␤»
23:29 BenGoldberg perl6: say pi - 3.14159265.Num
23:29 camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«3.5897929073769319E-09␤»
23:29 camelia ..rakudo-jvm fa1e95: OUTPUT«3.589792907376932E-9␤»
23:29 camelia ..rakudo-parrot fa1e95: OUTPUT«3.58979290737693e-09␤»
23:29 camelia ..rakudo-moar fa1e95: OUTPUT«0␤»
23:30 grondilu p6: say (pi - 3.14159265)/pi
23:30 camelia rakudo-parrot fa1e95: OUTPUT«1.14266657177053e-09␤»
23:30 camelia ..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«1.1426665717705302E-09␤»
23:30 camelia ..rakudo-jvm fa1e95: OUTPUT«1.1426665717705302E-9␤»
23:30 camelia ..rakudo-moar fa1e95: OUTPUT«0␤»
23:30 BenGoldberg perl6: say (pi - 3.14159265) * 1e9
23:30 camelia rakudo-moar fa1e95: OUTPUT«3.589793␤»
23:30 camelia ..rakudo-jvm fa1e95: OUTPUT«3.589792907376932␤»
23:30 camelia ..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«3.5897929073769319␤»
23:30 camelia ..rakudo-parrot fa1e95: OUTPUT«3.58979290737693␤»
23:31 * BenGoldberg is annoyed at how few significant digits moar prints out by default. Sadly, it's not specced to anything in particular, yet
23:31 grondilu m: say pi.perl
23:31 camelia rakudo-moar 717a00: OUTPUT«3.141593e0␤»
23:33 BenGoldberg One would think that Num.perl would print out a long enough decimal representation that .Num-ing the string could reconstruct a value equal to the original Num, within one or two bits.
23:34 psch m: my $x = 0.12345678910; $x.perl.say
23:34 camelia rakudo-moar 717a00: OUTPUT«0.1234567891␤»
23:34 lue BenGoldberg: what makes you say it doesn't?
23:35 psch i think this more about how many significant digits are present in the implementation
23:35 BenGoldberg If moar, internally, had tiny floats for Num, then:
23:36 BenGoldberg perl6: say (pi - 3.14159265) * 1e9
23:36 colomon BenGoldberg: pi is a Num, I believe
23:36 camelia rakudo-moar 717a00: OUTPUT«3.589793␤»
23:36 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 717a00: OUTPUT«3.589792907376932␤»
23:36 camelia ..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«3.5897929073769319␤»
23:36 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 717a00: OUTPUT«3.58979290737693␤»
23:36 colomon p: say pi.WHAT
23:36 camelia rakudo-parrot 717a00: OUTPUT«(Num)␤»
23:36 BenGoldberg ... would produce a zero for moar, instead of 3.58793
23:37 colomon r: say pi.perl
23:37 camelia rakudo-moar 717a00: OUTPUT«3.141593e0␤»
23:37 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 717a00: OUTPUT«3.141592653589793e0␤»
23:37 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 717a00: OUTPUT«3.14159265358979e0␤»
23:37 colomon though yeah, that's a moar-bug
23:37 lue m: say pi; say pi - 3.14159265; say (pi - 3.14159265) * 1e9
23:37 camelia rakudo-moar 717a00: OUTPUT«3.141593␤0␤3.589793␤»
23:37 colomon r: say (1/3).Num.perl
23:37 camelia rakudo-moar 717a00: OUTPUT«0.333333e0␤»
23:37 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 717a00: OUTPUT«0.3333333333333333e0␤»
23:37 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 717a00: OUTPUT«0.333333333333333e0␤»
23:37 lue That second number should not be zero.
23:39 BenGoldberg perl6: my $p = (pi - 3.14159265); say $p.gist, ' ', $p.perl, ' ', $p.fmt('%.15f')
23:39 camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«3.5897929073769319E-09 3.5897929073769319E-09 0.000000003589793␤»
23:39 camelia ..rakudo-moar 717a00: OUTPUT«0 0e0 0.000000003589793␤»
23:39 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 717a00: OUTPUT«3.58979290737693e-09 3.58979290737693e-09 0.000000003589790␤»
23:39 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 717a00: OUTPUT«3.589792907376932E-9 3.589792907376932E-9 0.000000003589793␤»
23:39 timotimo google docs does show coke on the first slide constantly apparently
23:40 psch 30 minutes camelia :)
23:41 BenGoldberg perl6: my $p = (pi - 3.14159265); say $p.fmt('%.15e')
23:41 camelia rakudo-parrot 717a00: OUTPUT«3.589792907376930e-09␤»
23:41 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 717a00, rakudo-moar 717a00: OUTPUT«3.589792907376932e-09␤»
23:41 camelia ..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«3.589792907376932e-009␤»
23:41 timotimo :D
23:41 timotimo now coke dropped off the 'net
23:41 jnthn BenGoldberg: Got a MoarVM patch coming up that gives us some more digits.
23:42 * colomon will stop searching through the NQP source trying to figure out where that code is.
23:42 BenGoldberg perl6: my $p = (pi - 3.14159265358979290737693); say $p.fmt('%.15e')
23:42 camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«4.440892098500626e-016␤»
23:42 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 717a00: OUTPUT«4.440892098500630e-16␤»
23:42 camelia ..rakudo-moar 717a00: OUTPUT«4.440892098500626e-16␤»
23:42 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 717a00: OUTPUT«0.000000000000000e+00␤»
23:44 BenGoldberg perl6: my $p = (pi - 3.14159265358979290737693444089209850062); say $p.fmt('%.15e')
23:44 camelia rakudo-parrot 717a00, rakudo-jvm 717a00, rakudo-moar 717a00: OUTPUT«0.000000000000000e+00␤»
23:44 camelia ..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«0.000000000000000e+000␤»
23:44 BenGoldberg :)
23:45 BenGoldberg I think that perl6 should define pi to be 3.14159265358979290737693444089209850062, as a Rat ;)
23:46 * BenGoldberg is only slightly joking
23:46 colomon BenGoldberg: that's too precise for a Rat, isn't it?
23:46 timotimo the question is: what do you use pi for normally and how well do rats work in that case?
23:46 colomon FatRat, now...
23:46 timotimo do our trigonometric operations handle rats well?
23:47 BenGoldberg r: say 3.14159265358979290737693444089209850062.nude
23:47 camelia rakudo-parrot 717a00, rakudo-jvm 717a00, rakudo-moar 717a00: OUTPUT«157079632679489645368846722044604925031 50000000000000000000000000000000000000␤»
23:47 raydiak why use so many digits if the last 2/3rds are wrong? :)
23:47 BenGoldberg r: say pi.Rat.nude
23:47 camelia rakudo-parrot 717a00, rakudo-jvm 717a00, rakudo-moar 717a00: OUTPUT«355 113␤»
23:48 lue I think we should define a π :)
23:48 BenGoldberg r: say pi.Rat.Num.fmt("%.30e")
23:48 camelia rakudo-jvm 717a00: OUTPUT«3.00000000001.415929203539825E29e+00␤»
23:48 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 717a00: OUTPUT«3.000000000001.4159292035398e+29e+00␤»
23:48 camelia ..rakudo-moar 717a00: OUTPUT«3.000000000009223391921479614464e+00␤»
23:48 BenGoldberg r: say pi.Rat.Num.fmt("%.15e")
23:48 camelia rakudo-jvm 717a00, rakudo-moar 717a00: OUTPUT«3.141592920353983e+00␤»
23:48 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 717a00: OUTPUT«3.141592920353980e+00␤»
23:48 jnthn BenGoldberg: MoarVM HEAD has the patch now. :)
23:49 timotimo great! :)
23:49 colomon jnthn++
23:49 BenGoldberg r: say (pi - pi.Rat.Num).fmt("%.15e")
23:49 camelia rakudo-parrot 717a00: OUTPUT«-2.667641894049670e-07␤»
23:49 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 717a00, rakudo-moar 717a00: OUTPUT«-2.667641894049666e-07␤»
23:49 jnthn Also one spectest fail went away thanks to it :)
23:50 timotimo jnthn: you could draft up a prototype for the re-structured optimizer perhaps?
23:50 grondilu_ joined #perl6
23:51 jnthn timotimo: Perhaps, though I think there's a few more pressing things than that.
23:52 timotimo sure
23:52 timotimo you were asking for things to do, so i just grabbed that off the top of my head :)
23:52 jnthn timotimo: Well, there's plenty to do, I'm just kinda tired today after staying up quite late working on Moar release today, so was looking for LHF :)
23:53 timotimo heh. that's absolutely fair
23:55 jnthn If anybody is looking to take a fairly manageable task off my list: bring the perl6-debug frontend (not the Perl 6 UI module, just the perl6-debug program itself) into the Rakudo repo and get it so we build it on all 3 backends, generating and installing a fakeexecutable on Parrot and a runner on Moar and JVM.
23:55 grondilu_ pi has no unversally accepted numeric approximation, so honestly I'm not even sure it's a good idea to put one in the core.  If we do, we might as well put one that is voluntarliy not too accurate.  Like constant pi = <355/113>.
23:56 lue 22/7 is the conventional fractional form of pi :)
23:56 jnthn Bonus: you most likely get to be the person to thank for us having perl6-debug on MoarVM :)
23:57 lue jnthn: "not the Perl 6 UI module"  what do you mean by that? Is there a GUI I missed?
23:58 denisboyun joined #perl6
23:58 jnthn lue: The debugger is broken up into a small NQP program that inserts debug hooks into AST, and a larger Perl 6 module that subscribes to them and does the actual user interaction.
23:58 grondilu joined #perl6
23:58 timotimo jnthn: how do we feel about loading .moarvm files from any kind of archive, compressed or otherwise?
23:58 jnthn lue:It's a command line interface at the moment. The design is such that we can build other ones.
23:58 jnthn timotimo: Negative.
23:58 jnthn timotimo: Ruins mmap
23:59 lue ah, so you want the debugger hooks in rakudo, but not the specific CUI program used for 'perl6-debug' ?
23:59 timotimo then we should just make sure to make the moarvm files small-ish :3
23:59 jnthn timotimo: Well, the integer thing in the serialization blob may be a big win.
23:59 timotimo right. only in the serialized blob though, yes?
23:59 jnthn lue: Well, perl6-debug is the thing I want brought in.
23:59 jnthn timotimo: right

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