Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-02-03

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:19 PonderingDonkey good Perl 6 syntax highlighter for emacs?
00:20 lue PonderingDonkey: there's cperl-mode, it's the most complete one out there so far.
00:21 jnthn Time for some sleep...'night o/
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00:56 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | http://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
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07:03 moritz good morning
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09:17 masak_ mornin', #perl6
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09:19 moritz \o masak_
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09:21 masak_ ah, uh, the net is so split.
09:21 Timbus_ and so it was
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09:28 FROGGS o/
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09:50 tadzik jnthn++'s slides are quite awesome :)
10:01 jnthn morning o/
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10:05 FROGGS tadzik: linky?
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10:05 FROGGS ohh, got them: http://jnthn.net/papers/20​14-fosdem-perl6-today.pdf
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10:06 jnthn whoa...net splits...
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10:09 diakopter yes one billion netsplits
10:09 FROGGS morning
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10:45 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | http://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
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10:50 moritz jnthn_: wow, you used SVG::Plot. And it worked!
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10:51 Ven p: my @a is default(42) = ^10; @a[3]:delete; say @a[2,3,4]; say @a[2,3,4]:exists
10:51 Ven hi camelia ?
10:51 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7: OUTPUT«2 42 4␤True False True␤»
10:52 Ven Oh I'm sad :(.
10:52 Ven It seems to be missing an output line.
10:52 moritz which one?
10:52 Ven Oh no, I'm blind. Well, that probably is a "new" feature implemented
10:52 masak looks right to me.
10:52 Ven because it doesn't seem to work on latest win version
10:52 masak yeah, you prolly have an old version.
10:53 masak it's pretty new. lizmat++
10:53 Ven lizmat++ then. "is" are cool :).
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10:53 * masak still wishes 'is default' on enum declarations
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10:53 Ven I'm reading through the advent2013 and lots of cool stuff ! I don't like some parts like "winner" and "more" and I hope the keyword will change
10:54 masak ...but only if it would actually smooth over the conceptual potholes I *think* it will! :)
10:54 Ven masak: What
10:54 masak Ven: that did change a lot, yes.
10:54 Ven masak: What's that ?
10:54 masak Ven: let me show you.
10:55 masak r: enum State <solid liquid gas plasma>; sub foo (State $s?) { say $s.defined; say $s }; foo(solid); foo()
10:56 masak ...these pauses give room for contemplation, and deep thought.
10:56 masak idiots--
10:57 masak oh!
10:57 masak contemplation, such as "it's not for enums I want defaults, it's for subtypes" ;)
10:57 masak so forget the above example, it's harmless.
10:57 masak it's for something like this:
10:59 masak r: subset Odd of Int where { $_ % 2 }; my Odd $o; say $o; say $o % 2; # if I could give Odd a default value, it wouldn't need to break its own invariant when undefined
10:59 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«True␤solid␤False␤(State)␤»
10:59 Ven :D
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11:00 Ven I'll go grab something to eat and see what you got for me when coming back, masak++.
11:00 Ven Let's give camelia some room to breath
11:00 masak agreed.
11:01 masak seems evaluation takes about 4 minutes.
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11:03 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7: OUTPUT«(Odd)␤Invocant requires an instance, but a type object was passed␤  in method Bridge at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:4290␤  in sub infix:<%> at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:4201␤  in sub infix:<%> at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:4016␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfi…»
11:03 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 4a74e7: OUTPUT«(Odd)␤Cannot look up attributes in a type object␤  in method Bridge at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:4287␤  in sub infix:<%> at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:4197␤  in sub infix:<%> at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:4012␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
11:03 camelia ..rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«(Odd)␤Invocant requires an instance, but a type object was passed␤  in method Bridge at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4286␤  in sub infix:<%> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4197␤  in sub infix:<%> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4012␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1…»
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11:19 masak huh.
11:19 masak r: my Int $i; say $i % 2
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11:32 camelia rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«Invocant requires an instance, but a type object was passed␤  in method Bridge at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4286␤  in sub infix:<%> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4197␤  in sub infix:<%> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4012␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
11:32 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 4a74e7: OUTPUT«Invocant requires an instance, but a type object was passed␤  in method Bridge at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:4290␤  in sub infix:<%> at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:4201␤  in sub infix:<%> at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:4016␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
11:32 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 4a74e7: OUTPUT«Cannot look up attributes in a type object␤  in method Bridge at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:4287␤  in sub infix:<%> at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:4197␤  in sub infix:<%> at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:4012␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
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11:42 masak I don't remember infix:<%> behaving like that.
11:42 masak I expected it to warn, but assume that an undefined Int numifies to 0.
11:43 masak r: my Int $i; try say $i % 2; say "alive"
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11:44 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«alive␤»
11:44 masak n: my Int $i; try say $i % 2; say "alive"
11:45 masak p: my Int $i; try say $i % 2; say "alive"
11:45 masak pugs: my Int $i; try say $i % 2; say "alive"
11:45 camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«0␤alive␤»
11:45 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7: OUTPUT«alive␤»
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11:46 camelia pugs: OUTPUT«0␤*** Cannot cast from VBool True to VCode (VCode)␤    at /tmp/AH3yUvDEOe line 1, column 12-26␤»
11:47 timotimo seems like i'll have to resort to reading the clogs today rather than being on the channel and experiencing things first-hand
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12:27 moritz fwiw the p5 signatures patch supports somethink like    sub foo($optional=undef, ?$optional_passed) { ... } where $optional_passed becomes a true value if there was an argument bound to the optional parameter
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12:27 moritz and false if the default has been used
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12:28 moritz not a bad way to solve the semipredicate problem, IMHO (though I haven't fully thought it through)
12:29 masak how does the implementation know that $optional and $optional_passed are in such a relation? (they come directly one after another? the suffix '_passed'? the prepended question mark?)
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12:31 masak r: my Int $i; try say $i % 2; say "alive"
12:31 masak n: my Int $i; try say $i % 2; say "alive"
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12:31 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«alive␤»
12:31 camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«0␤alive␤»
12:31 masak I say Niecza has it right. any comments from anyone before I submit a rakudobug?
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12:35 moritz masak: the come directly after each other, and the second starts with a ?
12:36 moritz *they
12:38 masak ah.
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12:39 masak one could probably write a Perl 6.0.0 module that does that.
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12:43 moritz though maybe in Perl 6 we'd invent a special syntax for it
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12:45 psch hi #perl6
12:45 moritz hello psch
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12:52 Ven moritz: could you explain ? Not sure I understand your "?"
12:55 Ven p: say (5 % 2)
12:55 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7: OUTPUT«1␤»
12:55 Ven p: say 5 % 2
12:55 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7: OUTPUT«1␤»
12:55 Ven oh okay it's just for an undefned value
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13:36 masak r: my $x; say $x % 2
13:36 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in numeric context  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤0␤»
13:36 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in numeric context␤0␤»
13:36 masak that's what I expect from Int undefined values, too.
13:37 * masak submits rakudobug
13:49 masak Perl 6 module request to all the lurkers out there: a SVG::Plot module that produces a world map. individual countries can then be given numeric values, which translate to a (configurable) color scale. individual countries can also be given text labels.
13:50 masak interesting post about the continuing evolution of Perl 5: http://blogs.perl.org/users/buddy_burden​/2014/01/perl-and-me-part-8-endless-form​s-most-beautiful-and-most-wonderful.html
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13:54 frettled masak: 1) useful module!  2) nice post, almost masaky!
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13:56 masak ;)
13:56 * masak ought to blog more, whether masaky posts or no
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15:43 masak I'm currently learning AngularJS, one of whose policies is "evaluation of properties takes place against a scope".
15:43 masak we've encountered similar things during the evolution of Perl 6, with eval^WEVAL, and with quasi ASTs.
15:43 masak it's an interesting insight.
15:44 masak another way to put it is that a *value* of a variable isn't a global thing, it's a *relation* between a scope and a symbol name.
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15:45 moritz and how does that tie into category theory? :-)
15:45 * moritz has found a new standard troll question
15:47 masak haha
15:47 BenGoldberg I did not know there were such things as 'standard trolls' ;)
15:47 masak or 'new standard trolls'
15:48 moritz BenGoldberg: there are quite a few often-recurring troll themes
15:49 masak moritz: variable lookup happens on a tree of scopes. the mapping from scope via symbol name to values is a graph. both trees and graphs have well-known embeddings into categories.
15:49 moritz ranging from "simply shouting around" over "Perl 6 is dead" over "I'll use Perl 6... but only if you implement $esoteric_feature; otherwise it's useless" to "I'll help you with your project, but you have spoon-feed me every step of the way"
15:50 masak moritz: but it's good practice to first decide what property one wants to expose/highlight before choosing an embedding into a category ;)
15:51 * masak totally took the bait
15:51 BenGoldberg Perl6 might be more lively if some university were to teach a course on it
15:52 masak Git repositories can also be embedded into categories -- but I've yet to find an interesting way to do so.
15:53 ajr Don't computer scientists consider Perl to be slightly obscene, because it relies on contexts?
15:53 moritz some do
15:54 masak Perl does a number of things that computer scientists consider to be slightly obscene.
15:54 masak because Perl never catered directly to computer scientists.
15:55 masak the goal is to Get Stuff Done, not to Be Elegant or Minimal.
15:57 BenGoldberg Ok, so instead of a perl6 course in a fancy university, we need for there to exist a perl6 course in some technical college :)  Somewhere that educates people on how to Get Stuff Done, as opposed to someplace that teaches how to be a Computer Scientist
15:59 masak we have a Perl course at Edument. it's popular partly because it's very example-oriented.
15:59 masak I wrote it with the explicit intent to teach people how to do things to STDIN, how to process files, how to be effective with arrays and hashes, etc.
16:00 diakopter oh no not the netsplits again
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16:22 TimToady anocelot++ wants to do write a Perl 6 course for De Anza College
16:25 masak nice!
16:28 tweemo joined #perl6
16:28 tweemo vm
16:28 tweemo huh.
16:28 diakopter o_O
16:29 Sqirrel joined #perl6
16:29 * tweemo is checking out weechat
16:36 timo joined #perl6
16:38 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
16:38 * TimToady gets the feeling this one of the days he'll have to read both irssi's backlog and irclog's because they'll differ significantly
16:39 TimToady o/
16:40 masak pmichaud! \o/
16:42 [Coke] pmichaud: o/
16:43 * [Coke] is getting >< close to snapping over this construction noise. Oi.
16:46 timo_ joined #perl6
16:47 * masak pats [Coke]
16:47 cognominal joined #perl6
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16:50 * [Coke] remembers: headphones!
16:50 * TimToady is trying to figure out why http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2014-02-03#i_8221286 has a ZERO WIDTH SPACE in the middle of the 2014
16:51 TimToady it's there in both backlogs
16:51 TimToady note that it stops the blue underline highlight in the ircclog
16:51 tweemo2 ah! so that's what caused my terminal to not make the whole thing clickable
16:52 pmichaud good news:  @child[1]'s robotics team won their regional championship yesterday, and now moves on to the World Championship in St. Louis in April :)
16:52 pmichaud s/yesterday/Saturday   # I've lost track of dates
16:52 TimToady \o/
16:53 pmichaud @child[0]'s team competes in their Regional Championship this Saturday.  :)
16:53 colomon_windows joined #perl6
16:53 colomon_windows @child[0]++
16:54 colomon_windows (backlogs more than one line) @child[1]++ too!
16:54 colomon_windows pmichaud!  o/
16:55 colomon_windows diakopter: my OS X IRC client hasn't been able to get me onto #perl6 since last night.  :(
16:56 ponbiki joined #perl6
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17:00 TimToady regarding not-passed optionals, we could probably just force such a parameter to be bound directly to Nil
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17:11 TimToady .tell FROGGS http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2014-02-03#i_8221286 has a ZERO WIDTH SPACE in the middle of the 2014 for some reason; any idea's why?
17:11 TimToady split bot?
17:11 TimToady oh well...
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17:24 timotimo ohai
17:24 timotimo now i'm on weechat instead of irssi
17:24 bakedb joined #perl6
17:25 vendethiel very interesting read :D
17:26 timotimo what is? the post about language evolution and perl6?
17:26 dakkar joined #perl6
17:26 vendethiel timotimo: "perl6: what can you do today"
17:27 vendethiel what's `my @abc = do for ... { X }` ? how's it different from gather/take ?
17:27 timotimo oh!
17:27 timotimo yes, i enjoyed that, too
17:27 kurahaupo_mobile joined #perl6
17:27 timotimo it's different in that it doesn't use the lazy mechanism
17:28 ilogger2 joined #perl6
17:28 timotimo the do is only there to make the precedence work out
17:28 timotimo and has no other function
17:28 timotimo er, not quite "precedence", but ... grammar?
17:28 vendethiel r: my @a = for 1..3 { $_
17:28 vendethiel r: my @a = for 1..3 { $_ }
17:28 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Word 'for' interpreted as a listop; please use 'do for' to introduce the statement control word�at /tmp/tmpfile:1�------> [32mmy @a = for[33m�[31m 1..3 { $_[0m�Unexpected…»
17:28 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Word 'for' interpreted as a listop; please use 'do for' to introduce the statement control word�at /tmp/tmpfile:1�------> [32mmy @a = for[33m�[31m 1..3 { $_ }[0m�Unexpect…»
17:29 vendethiel oke.
17:29 vendethiel r: my @a = do for 1..3 { $_ }; @a.perl.say
17:29 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«Array.new(1, 2, 3)␤»
17:30 vendethiel r: say [1, 2].perl eqv Array.new(1, 2)
17:30 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«False␤»
17:30 vendethiel r: say [1, 2].perl eq Array.new(1, 2)
17:30 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«False␤»
17:30 vendethiel r: [1, 2].^name.say; Array.new(1, 2).^name.say
17:30 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«Array␤Array␤»
17:30 vendethiel hm.
17:31 vendethiel they're the same nevertheless
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17:33 timotimo er
17:33 vendethiel r: sub prefix:<%%>(Array @values) { [+](@values) / @values }; say %%[1, 2, 3]
17:33 timotimo you will hardly be able to eqv the .perl of one thing with an array of numbers :)
17:33 gfldex joined #perl6
17:33 camelia rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '@values'; expected Positional[Array] but got Array␤  in sub prefix:<%%> at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
17:33 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 4a74e7: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '@values'␤  in sub prefix:<%%> at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
17:33 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 4a74e7: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '@values'; expected Positional[Array] but got Array instead␤  in sub prefix:<%%> at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
17:33 vendethiel timotimo: oh haha I forgot .perl
17:34 vendethiel r: sub prefix:<%%>(@values) { [+](@values) / @values }; say %%[1, 2, 3]
17:34 jeffreykegler joined #perl6
17:34 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«2␤»
17:34 vendethiel timotimo: can I type a whole array ? `sub _(@a [Int...]) {}` or something ?
17:39 vendethiel "> Method calls and hash/list access on Nil give Nil" this seems dangerous :o
17:41 tadzik r: my @a; @a[7].bazinga()
17:41 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«No such method 'bazinga' for invocant of type 'Any'␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
17:41 tadzik it also seems incorrect :)
17:41 vendethiel r: Nil<a><a><a>.say
17:41 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
17:41 vendethiel :(
17:41 tadzik oh, like this
17:41 masak n: my @a; @a[7].bazinga()
17:41 camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method bazinga in type Any␤  at /tmp/E3cO99CRLw line 1 (mainline @ 4) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4595 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4596 (module-CORE @ 576)…»
17:43 raydiak r: say Nil.foobar
17:43 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
17:44 vendethiel that seems pretty bad to me
17:44 tadzik on the plus side, Nil usually doesn't happen in the wild
17:44 tadzik so when you use it yourself, you should be aware of the risks :)
17:45 vendethiel r: my @a; say @a[1].^name;
17:45 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«Any␤»
17:45 vendethiel r: Any<a>.say
17:45 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
17:45 vendethiel so it seems to work the same with Any
17:45 raydiak r: say Any.foobar
17:45 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«No such method 'foobar' for invocant of type 'Any'␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
17:46 vendethiel raydiak++. Why are those two handled differently ?
17:46 raydiak vendethiel: I haven't a clue, but I'm sure others here know :)
17:46 tadzik r: my %h; %h<ooo>.say
17:46 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
17:46 tadzik hah
17:46 tadzik r: my %h; %h<ooo>.bazinga
17:46 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«No such method 'bazinga' for invocant of type 'Any'␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
17:47 tadzik *shrug*, fair enough :)
17:47 tadzik r: my %h = a => 5; say %h<a> + %h<b>
17:47 camelia rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in numeric context␤5␤»
17:47 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 4a74e7: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in numeric context  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤5␤»
17:47 tadzik r: my %h = a => 5.5; say %h<a>.floor + %h<b>.floor
17:47 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«No such method 'floor' for invocant of type 'Any'␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
17:48 tadzik que
17:48 tadzik so it only works for .say, it seems
17:48 vendethiel tadzik: array/hash access doesn't trigger the error. calling does
17:48 raydiak r: say [Any, Nil, 0].perl # another of the aforementioned risks of Nil
17:48 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«[Any, 0]␤»
17:48 tadzik sure
17:48 tadzik it's pretty natural that the access itself doesn :)
17:48 vendethiel that kinda makes sense, though
17:48 tadzik unless you're used to python
17:48 vendethiel in the sense that Nil erases value
17:49 TimToady not supposed to disappear there
17:49 TimToady that's a fossil behavior
17:50 * BenGoldberg fossil fuel behavior?
17:50 TimToady making it behave like () in list context was a istake
17:50 TimToady er, a mistak :)
17:51 tadzik mistak is sort of an autopun :)
17:51 BenGoldberg e an till nderstand hat ou ean f ou eave ff he irst etter :)
17:51 vendethiel which synopsis do I need to read to get a grip on grammars? many things I havn't seen yet
17:51 tadzik like tyop
17:51 vendethiel tadzik: or muphry's law :)
17:51 TimToady BenGoldberg: he can, can he? :P
17:51 tadzik haha
17:52 BenGoldberg [wh]e can :)
17:52 vendethiel (also, make)
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17:52 tadzik vendethiel: I recommend reading every material available, everywhere
17:53 tadzik I had a lot of trouble understanding grammars, and I read everything that was there, and then wrote some code, and then after a while I started to grok it :)
17:53 vendethiel tadzik: I'm pretty much up to 9
17:53 tadzik but one of synopses is about regexes and grammars, s05 I think
17:53 tadzik also, doc.perl6.org is very good
17:54 vendethiel tadzik: really, I can understand most of it. I just need `make`, `ast`/`value` spec (to know where which are available) and %% in grammers
17:55 vendethiel tadzik++: it's pretty natural to read
17:55 tadzik vendethiel: I'm sure make, .ast and so are covered in the spec
17:55 TimToady r: my @array is default(Nil); say @array[42].elems
17:55 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«0␤»
17:56 TimToady r: my @array is default(Nil); say @array[42].WHAT
17:56 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
17:56 TimToady hmm
17:56 TimToady r: my @array is default(Nil); say @array[42].nonesuch
17:56 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
17:56 tadzik http://perlcabal.org/syn/S05.html#Match_objects
17:56 tadzik vendethiel: ^
17:57 tadzik hm, I didn't know there's ".made" :)
17:57 TimToady there is?
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17:58 diakopter lizmat added it after talking with jnthn today :)
17:58 diakopter (shrug)
17:59 smls TimToady: I think I found a problem with Brace_expansion#Perl_6 ...
17:59 TimToady diakopter: apparently not "added", but replaced ".ast" with it
18:00 skids r: sub foo (:$a, :$b) { "a $a b $b".say }; foo(:a(1) :b(2)); (:a(1) :b(2)).perl.say;
18:00 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7, rakudo-jvm 4a74e7, rakudo-moar 4a74e7: OUTPUT«a 1 b 2␤"a" => 1␤»
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18:00 TimToady but the writing describing .made now make no sense at all :)
18:01 smls TimToady: It expands this pattern: "{a,{\,b}c"  into these two strings: "ac", "{\,bc"
18:01 tadzik :o
18:01 smls which violates the "Neither of the braces is eligible to participate in delimiting a valid comma group" rule
18:02 smls Perl and Python solutions both simply return the input in that example
18:02 TimToady okay, I'll look at it when my brane is working again
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18:08 * smls thinks .made sounds like something that would return a boolean value. What was wrong with .ast?
18:08 berekuk joined #perl6
18:09 timo1 there was a lack of symmetry between make and .ast
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18:12 smls Well, "make" is the verb, and "AST" is the corresponding noun.
18:12 smls "making an AST" sounds ok to me
18:12 smls what more symmetry do you need?
18:12 timotimo make → .ast seems fine to me, too
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18:14 TimToady smls: turns out I have enuf brane to fix it, so I did
18:15 smls TimToady++
18:15 TimToady I'm okay with turning .ast into .made, fwiw
18:15 TimToady though if we're gonna do that, we should maybe bikeshed the verb itself
18:15 lizmat I wouldn't be against that
18:15 TimToady make having some amount of cognitive dissonance with, er, make
18:16 lizmat the make / .ast pair didn't make any sense to me
18:16 lizmat put / get ?
18:16 TimToady yes, that was a bit fossily, but we can probably find some word that works both for the verb and the method
18:17 TimToady I'm not sure we need two words
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18:17 lizmat stash?  :-)
18:17 timotimo hm. attach / attachment?
18:18 TimToady stash is also overloaded, and a character too long :)
18:18 lizmat pot ?
18:18 smls Wouln't the formal term in the context of grammars be "produce"?
18:19 timotimo produce could be confused with reduce :3
18:19 TimToady .oO(How good it is, to pot a yak!)
18:20 masak I, for one, like "make".
18:20 timotimo you would, wouldn't you, maksak? :)
18:20 masak the actions make things. the things are annotations on the parse tree.
18:20 lizmat http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pot
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18:23 skids Don't forget make is mnemonically related to "take"
18:24 TimToady take is took
18:24 skids Right, what I'm saying is that changing away from make takes the make/take mnemonic away.
18:25 skids .oO(make/take gather/matter)
18:26 TimToady ah, got it wrong: "When cares attack and life seems black, How sweet it is to pot a yak"
18:31 pochi joined #perl6
18:31 smls TimToady: Found another one: "a{b,{{c}}"  --> "ab", "a{{c}"  (should be "a{b,{{c}}")
18:32 TimToady right, I'll have to work a little harder for that one
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18:39 vendethiel Could a grammar like that work to parse JSON ? https://gist.github.com/Nam​i-Doc/03fcb5e95804d536dbe7
18:40 vendethiel I'm mostly scared with strings
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18:41 timotimo compare it to the JSON::Tiny::Grammar :)
18:42 timotimo the token node could benefit a lot from becoming a proto token
18:42 vendethiel timotimo++, I need to read about grammars anyway :P
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18:45 TimToady smls: fixed, please break this one :)
18:45 colomon joined #perl6
18:45 smls I'll try :)
18:45 smls vendethiel: Not sure if it's transferable to P6 grammars, but in P5 regexes imo the best way to parse quoted constructs is:  /" [^"]++ "/x
18:46 colomon hey!  IRC is working again for me!  \o/
18:46 smls Or if the string can contain its own delimeter escaped by a backslash:   /" (?: [^"\\]++ | \\. )++ "/x
18:46 TimToady that is more or less what I'm doing
18:47 TimToady so certainly it's tranferrable
18:47 diakopter REIFY
18:48 smls vendethiel: the idea is to match the opening delimiter, then possessively (i.e. disabling backtracking) match as many characters or escape sequences that are *not* the end delimiter as possible, and the match the end delimiter
18:50 smls although I suppose in this simple case, possessive matching is not actually required (only as a performance optimization)
18:51 Rotwang joined #perl6
18:55 TimToady smls: in P6, "possessive" is usually spelled ":ratchet", and "token"
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18:56 TimToady smls: I note your possessive cannot match ""
18:57 smls good catch
18:57 TimToady would have to be *+, no?
18:57 smls yes
18:57 TimToady anyway, P6 grammars generally depend heavily on those semantics
18:58 TimToady to the extent that we factor it out into the declarators
18:58 araujo joined #perl6
18:58 TimToady and you have to say "regex" to get backtracking by default
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19:02 smls TimToady: "{a{\}b,c}d" --> "{a{\}b,c}d" (should be: "{a\}bd", "{acd")
19:05 xenoterracide joined #perl6
19:05 * TimToady is beginning to think the rules are contradictory :)
19:05 [Coke] ENODALEK?
19:05 FROGGS joined #perl6
19:06 TimToady [Coke]: had billions of netsplits last night
19:06 smls TimToady: how so?
19:06 [Coke] yes, but we're all fine, here, now, yes?
19:07 FROGGS o/
19:07 FROGGS are there any chances that MoarVM/Perl6 will be part of GSoC this year?
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19:08 vendethiel why isn't "proto token" named "multi token"? seems more consistent
19:08 xenoterracide joined #perl6
19:08 timotimo FROGGS: wow, that'd be a GSoC that i'd actually be interested in taking a part in
19:08 TimToady smls: dunno, brane doesn't do "meta" today, but my feeling is that there is something there that depends on which rule you give priority to
19:09 xenoterracide joined #perl6
19:09 smls hm, I planned on rewriting the description some time anyways, to make it clearer
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19:10 smls although the Perl and Python solutions seem to agree on everything :)
19:11 TimToady yeah, well, it's really easy to hide assumptions in operational code
19:11 smls :P
19:12 [Coke] FROGGS: parrot was part of last year's GSOC. TPF wasn't.
19:13 FROGGS TimToady: do you know who is in charge to register MoarVM/Perl6 at the GSoC?
19:13 [Coke] I suspect getting someone to try to apply for us under the TPF banner (if that didn't happen last year) is the way to go.
19:13 FROGGS [Coke]: I know... will this be the same for this year?
19:13 FROGGS who do we need to nag?
19:13 [Coke] FROGGS: and note that GSOC doesn't accept all orgs that volunteer.
19:14 FROGGS [Coke]: troo, but not volunteering is a 100% no :o)
19:15 [Coke] FROGGS: https://www.google.com/calendar/render?​eid=Z2JwbDRma3RncDh1dGlmZXI2dTVvdXZyams​gZ3N1bW1lcm9mY29kZUBt&amp;ctz=America/L​os_Angeles&amp;sf=true&amp;output=xml
19:15 [Coke] you have great timing. we can submit tomorrow.
19:15 [Coke] up through Feb 14
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19:16 [Coke] Util: do you remember who the TPF contact was in previous years?
19:20 * lizmat wonders where it is specced that Camelia's true size is 3 meters wide
19:20 vendethiel p: Camelia.^truesize().say
19:20 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/6rmABrMkRbâ�¤Undeclared name:â�¤    Camelia used at line 1â�¤â�¤Â»
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19:32 masak colomon asks me to post that the ADT and PDF::Grammar modules started to fail over the weekend.
19:32 colomon masak++ # colomon now has IRC back, but hadn't gotten around to posting that yet
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19:36 TimToady smls: actually, looks like it might be an LTM bug
19:37 timotimo masak: oh no! :(
19:37 timotimo but i have a suspicion
19:37 TimToady worked around it by adding \\ to negated cclass, but it ought to have preferred the \. alternate over the negated cclass
19:37 timotimo it'd stand to reason that the itemization that's no longer happening automatically in make was needed for my ADT to work
19:37 vendethiel is there actually a perl 6 web framework yet ? that cool be a fun project
19:37 vendethiel even tho I've done too much web already
19:38 * smls doesn't really feel safe around LTM; will probably prefer to use || in own grammars
19:38 treehug88 joined #perl6
19:39 tadzik vendethiel: there's Bailador
19:39 * smls might just be biased due to being used to P5 regexes though...
19:39 * lizmat is off to bed, recovering from FOSDEM
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19:41 TimToady smls: use of || would be...operational definition... :P
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19:45 TimToady ah, no, my bug, not LTM :)
19:45 vendethiel p: (a => 1, b => 2).^name.say; {a => 1, b => 2}.^name
19:45 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7: OUTPUT«Parcel␤»
19:45 vendethiel p: (a => 1, b => 2).^name.say; {a => 1, b => 2}.^name.say
19:45 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7: OUTPUT«Parcel␤Hash␤»
19:45 vendethiel mmh
19:45 TimToady the *? was backtracking back into the alternation
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19:46 vendethiel Will there be a way to leverage java libraries on the java backend ? like jruby and stuff
19:46 raiph I see make/.ast as annotations hanging on a tree, hence I suggest hang and .hung
19:47 timotimo vendethiel: you can already use Blah::Foo::Bar:from<java>
19:47 raiph as in hanging a christmas ornament
19:47 raiph (er, hanging on a branch of a tree)
19:47 vendethiel timotimo: like Joda::Time:from<java> ? adverbs are really powerful !
19:48 vendethiel timotimo++
19:49 TimToady smls: okay, fixed it the right way, was a backtracking thinko, not an LTM issue
19:49 vendethiel timotimo: does this happen to be possible from niecza too ? (use A::B::C:from<clr>)
19:50 moritz oh hai
19:50 TimToady yo
19:50 raiph \o
19:50 moritz Google Summor of Code now accepts application for mentoring organizations
19:51 moritz since TPF wasn't accepted last year, I'd propose we do our own application this year
19:52 [Coke] moritz: we're not an organization.
19:52 moritz [Coke]: not legally, but that shouldn't stop us
19:52 timotimo vendethiel: yes
19:52 vendethiel Okay, something I regularly ask from people when starting programming language. Would you happen to have one snippet (or maybe some) you would show somebody to blow their minds, possibly with the max. features you could put in there ? I'm currently using the PDF's version to get friends to learn it with me :D.
19:52 timotimo vendethiel: search for "tetris" on the advent calendar for an example
19:52 [Coke] I would expect that to be a showstopper. huh.
19:52 [Coke] (to moritz)
19:52 [Coke] happy if it ain't.
19:53 btyler I think a fair few GSoC 'organizations' are just the group of developers around the project
19:53 [Coke] ENOBEER
19:53 timotimo vendethiel: blowing people's minds by putting as many features into a few lines of code seems like a bad idea :)
19:53 [Coke] one thing that would need to be setup is a way to get paid from google.
19:53 [Coke] (which being an org helps with a lot - I know there are orgs that proxy that kind of thing, though.)
19:53 moritz [Coke]: I remember that the previous years, Software in the PUblic Interest (SPI) would handle the payments for those organizations that couldn't legally accept them
19:53 vendethiel timotimo: for many people, that could be. But we're really just a group of friends learning a lot of languages along the way, so that's how we get other people's interest
19:53 btyler seems like the more important aspect is how organized they are in identifying projects and providing mentors
19:54 [Coke] util & dukeleto are good people to talk to from the parrot side, I'd wager. I cannot remember the original TPF person, but can probably dig it up.
19:54 moritz [Coke]: or maybe TPF will do that for us
19:54 timotimo vendethiel: i don't think i have something for you :(
19:54 vendethiel timotimo: You've (all) done far enough :) !
19:54 timotimo :P
19:54 [Coke] moritz: I'd be happy if TPF did it and earmarked the money for perl6 stuff.
19:54 nwc10 was rafl the TPF person for GSoC in previous years?
19:55 vendethiel timotimo: I'm getting asked : is there a way to call perl code from java ?
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19:55 moritz nwc10: I'm asking him over in #p5p
19:55 timotimo yeah, there is
19:56 moritz ok, but one thing we absolutely need for GSoC is a list of ideas and possible mentors
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19:56 timotimo on the one hand, you can implement a few different java interfaces using normal perl6 objects, like a regular sub could provide java's native Callable interface (whatever its name may be)
19:56 timotimo and you can get a full compiler and thread context etc in java-land and feed it code, like the evalserver does
19:57 vendethiel timotimo: real' nice
19:58 nwc10 moritz: agree. One thought I had (sanity check with jnthn etc) is profiling/tuning/whatever the GC in MoarVM.
19:58 nwc10 but I do not have time to be a mentor for anyone for any project, 5, 6 or $other.
19:59 nwc10 sorry
19:59 moritz no need to apologize
19:59 [Coke] nwc10++ #not overcommitting (too much)
20:01 FROGGS jnthn: is there a tiny windows standard tool I can pipe to?
20:06 smls TimToady: '{a,b{{1,2}e}f' --> 'af', 'b{1ef', 'b{2ef'  (should be: '{a,b{1e}f', '{a,b{2e}f)')
20:07 Rotwang joined #perl6
20:08 smls ...but feel free to ignore it for now, I'll upload the revised task description today or tomorrow.
20:09 TimToady that one might well be more of a shift-reduce conflict in the rules
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20:10 TimToady lunch &
20:16 TimToady yes, you are preferring the 2nd of the 3 bullets, the P6 solution is preferring the 3rd of the three, and reducing
20:17 TimToady so rule conflict
20:17 TimToady rafk
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20:22 moritz since dalek is dead...
20:23 moritz https://github.com/perl6/mu/blob​/master/misc/gsoc-2014/ideas.md
20:23 moritz please please please add your ideas to the document above
20:23 moritz and do it quickly, there's only a 2-week window for application
20:23 moritz and I'll only do it if we have a decent idea collection within one week
20:24 moritz oh, and if you can imagine mentoring one of those projects, add your name to the list
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20:30 moritz [Coke]++ # adding an idea
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20:32 raiph TimToady: make, .ast? act .act | out .out | leaf .leaf | tag .tag | be .be | step .step | toast .ast
20:32 [Coke] moritz: I will go through more tonight after dayjob
20:32 vendethiel given 2 { .be || !.be }
20:32 moritz ++[Coke]
20:36 colomon when do GSOC projects start?
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20:36 FROGGS in april I think
20:37 * colomon has an idea, but is unsure whether it should wait that long.
20:37 FROGGS do tell :o)
20:38 moritz colomon: April 22
20:38 colomon I've proposed before that we should have an ecosystem cleanup-a-thon.
20:39 moritz +1
20:39 colomon as of today, there are 77 modules in the ecosystem which don't pass all tests
20:39 moritz actually May 20 is the start date
20:39 colomon all I was thinking was instead of a cleanup-a-thon, we could have a GSOC project with the same goal
20:40 moritz we could, but it wouldn't be a fun project at all
20:41 colomon okay, then that would be a good reason to have a cleanup-a-thon instead.
20:41 [Coke] colomon: worse, there are things in the ecosystem that have NO tests.
20:43 moritz like SVG::Plot
20:43 moritz I still don't know how to write proper tests for it
20:43 raiph TimToady: (act/.act is my favorite given its relationship to Action classes)
20:44 colomon afk # gone x-country skiing
20:45 beastd joined #perl6
20:46 masak 'night, #perl6
20:46 [Coke] moritz: I was more worried about the debugger.
20:46 [Coke] moritz: implement optimizations.
20:47 vendethiel p: sub infix:<.EQ.> ($) { say 'hai' }; .EQ. 5;
20:47 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/4bv9Q3iiIO�Unsupported use of . to concatenate strings; in Perl 6 please use ~�at /tmp/4bv9Q3iiIO:1�------> [32mub infix:<.EQ.> ($) { say 'hai' }; .EQ. [33m�[31m5;[0m�»
20:51 skids joined #perl6
20:52 raiph TimToady: different bikeshed: winner? how about whenever? how about assuming a loop (which you can explicitly break out of when delivering a value if you don't want the loop to continue; not sure about exceptions)?
20:54 xfix joined #perl6
20:56 rindolf Hi all.
20:57 araujo joined #perl6
21:01 raydiak \o
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21:02 timotimo wouldn't something like try.rakudo.org be a nice gsoc project?
21:02 * timotimo commutes
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21:14 vendethiel that'd be awesome :)
21:17 dayangkun joined #perl6
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21:21 * timotimo may or may not be working on something to make that feasible
21:21 timotimo but first: littlebigint!
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21:50 tadzik moritz: do you think that rakudo-managed precomp is a reasonable idea?
21:53 jdv79 joined #perl6
21:56 tadzik maybe a good test harness for the ecosystem
22:01 FROGGS a SOAP port
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22:32 timotimo wat.
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23:10 Ulti hmmm GSoC can be via universities right?
23:17 Ulti oh they dont, there is only a limited number of mentoring organisations
23:17 Ulti upto ~180 this year
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23:53 smls p: say [2, 4, 6, 8][1, 2]  # this looks funny :)
23:53 camelia rakudo-parrot 4a74e7: OUTPUT«4 6␤»
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