Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-02-12

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 camelia rakudo-parrot 260cd7, rakudo-jvm 260cd7, rakudo-moar 260cd7: OUTPUT«No such method 'Buf' for invocant of type 'Parcel'␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
00:00 TimToady r: say ascii.new;
00:00 camelia rakudo-parrot 260cd7, rakudo-jvm 260cd7, rakudo-moar 260cd7: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    ascii used at line 1. Did you mean '&asin'?â�¤â�¤Â»
00:00 TimToady I guess we don't have that one yet
00:00 TimToady to go with utf8
00:00 jnthn I didn't realize we were meant to have that one :)
00:01 grondilu or maybe the same kind of output we get with 'cat -v'
00:01 lue My issue is that Buf acts like a string with some array semantics, instead of a StrArray that I'd expect.
00:02 jnthn S02 doesn't mention an ascii type. 'course, it's easy enough to add, I think :)
00:02 lue e.g. Buf[0..3].Buf fails, but Buf.subbuf(0,3).Buf works. But I don't want to think of/use Buf as a funny string, I want to use it as a binary array.
00:02 * TimToady senses a repeat in the force
00:03 jnthn r: say "force" ~~ /x/
00:03 camelia rakudo-parrot 260cd7, rakudo-jvm 260cd7, rakudo-moar 260cd7: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
00:03 jnthn Nope, no repeat in force :P
00:04 TimToady r: say 'the force' ~~ /(.).*$0/
00:04 camelia rakudo-parrot 260cd7, rakudo-jvm 260cd7, rakudo-moar 260cd7: OUTPUT«「e force」␤ 0 => 「e」␤␤»
00:04 lue TimToady: yeah, but that's just because I still don't like how Buf is designed :)
00:04 lue .oO(If Array[uint8] actually worked...)
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00:06 miseria "la esclavitud la reemplazo un pobre salario minimo, el jornalero es victima de explotacion y tirania de la oligarquia" bienvenidos: http://castroruben.com *temo_a_un_ser_sin_rival*
00:07 TimToady do we have a way of removing spam lines from the irclog?
00:17 jnthn Time for some rest...should have a good tuit supply tomorrow :) o/
00:18 TimToady \o/ \o
00:28 colomon \
00:28 colomon \o
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00:36 clsn So what's to be the deal with openers and closers from Unicode tables?  It seems we can get opens/closes from BidiBrackets.txt for mirrored brackets; (﴾ ﴿ are a special case, according to the file, so we can just include them); but what about all the various Pi/Pf pairs?  You can and do have multiple openers for the same closer.  Are those to be all just special-cased?
00:36 clsn I mean, I guess we can guess with Pi/Pf by what's before what in Unicode, and then have a list of exceptions to fine-tune that.
00:38 clsn Actually, I count maybe 11 pairs of Pi/Pf, so maybe it isn't such a big deal.
00:38 clsn Just that they're important: «», ‹›, “”, etc.
00:41 lue clsn: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html#Bracketing_Characters
00:42 lue All non-Ps/Pe/Pi/Pf from BidiMirroring, then we picked the lowest-numbered Pe/Pf for every Ps/Pi
00:42 clsn Ah, OK, so it is spelled out in more detail than I thought...
00:42 lue s/picked/pick/
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00:42 clsn Was going to write a script to take/download the files and generate the code for Grammar.nqp or whatever.
00:42 lue it's already in NQP IIRC
00:43 lue nqp/src/HLL/Grammar.nqp
00:46 clsn Yeah, but that isn't current.
00:46 clsn We need to track Unicode as it evolves.
00:50 clsn http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-01-31#i_8201464
00:51 TimToady http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-01-31#i_8201492 :)
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00:51 clsn Yeah, I just noticed that... So not pulling from files, but use the props directly.
00:51 clsn Much better.
00:52 TimToady well, you don't want to slow down startup, to the extent you can pre-analyze
00:53 TimToady it can be recalculated whenever we know the props changed, and cached in an easy-to-load format
00:53 clsn Yeah... Do the work up-front if at all possible.
00:53 TimToady 2nd best is do it lazily like P5 does
00:54 TimToady well, depends on how much you value startup time in the absence of Unicode-isms
00:55 lue I think pre-generated list is the fastest option.
00:55 clsn Ideally up-front in the sense of "at time of compiling perl6 in the first place"
00:55 clsn Currently std has them as a big hash and a big string-list.  No reason we can't generate the same string at compile-time, is there?
00:56 TimToady well, modulo bootstrapping issues
00:56 lue as long as the underlying VM provides a way to poke its unicode tables for specific character categories, maybe.
00:57 clsn Yeah, depending on how much power we have by the time we're doing it.  And if we can't poke categories, we're back to square one.
00:59 lue U+1F574 "MAN IN BUSINESS SUIT LEVITATING" can't wait :)
01:05 segomos all people are inherently good
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01:05 TimToady but these hipsters are going to promote Unicode to its level of incompetence
01:06 segomos TimToady: nice peter principle
01:10 TimToady One of my goals in life is to peter principle the peter principle.
01:11 segomos how would that look?
01:12 geekosaur dilbert?
01:15 segomos observational astronomy
01:18 * TimToady wonders what non-observational astronomy would consist of...
01:18 geekosaur simulations, mostly
01:19 grondilu theory, as well
01:19 grondilu (though that's probably cosmology)
01:19 TimToady and the simulations are just physics :)
01:19 grondilu everything but maths is physics :)
01:19 geekosaur there is theory involved to the extent that they're still trying to understand key parts of how stars, galaxies, black holes, etc. are formed
01:20 geekosaur and it's kinda hard to watch live
01:21 segomos i'm watching the nye and ham debate on youtube
01:22 grondilu quite dpressing, isn't it?
01:22 segomos i find it pretty funny
01:22 TimToady it's even more depressing for us theists :/
01:23 segomos i think ham just isolates creationists, not really all theists
01:24 lue I genuinely curious as to why people like that can't just say "I guess God made everything via evolution."
01:24 lue s/I/I'm/
01:25 grondilu because that's not what is Written, so that would make them feel uncomfortable, I guess.
01:25 TimToady there are just way too many Christians who are way too willing to tell God how he must've meant Genesis 1
01:25 segomos lue: i'm also curious why they don't just cling to that too
01:25 * TimToady is happy with however God did it.  :)
01:25 colomon +1
01:25 lue IIRC Genesis only says "made animals/grass/etc.", it doesn't say "made with a magic wand" or anything specific.
01:26 segomos +1
01:26 lue +1 as well :)
01:26 colomon lue: I think we can all agree that evolving them from single-cell creatures in one 24-hour period is probably a bit much.  ;)
01:26 grondilu well, it does says a few things about clay or something
01:27 grondilu that's just ass weird as a magic wand
01:27 grondilu *as
01:27 * lue has not actually read the Bible </disclaimer>
01:27 TimToady clay is, oddly, right in the mix of biogenesis theories :)
01:28 lue colomon: you know who could make evolution happen in 24 hours? God. :P
01:28 TimToady what you mean is, if anyone is allowed to cheat, it's God
01:28 colomon TimToady surely knows more about this than I do, but my impression is that if you take Genesis 1 literally you immediately run into continuity issues with Genesis 2.
01:28 TimToady but I think it's a bit out of character :)
01:29 jercos lue: "And God said, Let the earth bring forth [...]" so doesn't even really say he did anything, just that he said it should happen
01:29 TimToady well, the structure of Gen 1 is obviously a poem, or perhaps a worship chant
01:29 jercos Emperor Norton ordered the bay bridge built, but he didn't build it :|
01:29 segomos jercos: it's a translation
01:29 TimToady it's obviously not a scientific text
01:30 lue TimToady: for some definition of his character, at least :P (that whole "how can evil exist" thing IIRC)
01:30 * TimToady is particularly sensitive to young-earth creationists, because he used to be one
01:30 TimToady then he started actually looking at the evidence
01:30 TimToady (was raised in that culture)
01:31 TimToady well, even most atheists look at creation and would rather that it exist than not exist
01:31 TimToady some in some sense they believe "It was all very good."
01:31 segomos i went to catholic school
01:32 TimToady we all have to start thinking for ourselves at some point, or let someone else tell us what to think
01:32 lue TimToady: "The creation of the universe made a lot of people very angry and was widely regarded as a bad move."
01:32 lue :)
01:32 jercos I still think digital watches are pretty cool.
01:32 colomon Adams++
01:32 geekosaur colomon: I can't really speak to various Christian interpretations but the typical Jewish one is that Gen 1 describes man-as-animal and Gen 2 describes the fashioning of his soul
01:32 segomos lue: lmao
01:32 geekosaur but the Jewish view on souls is ... complex
01:32 TimToady as it should be
01:33 segomos i went to jewish service when i was in boot camp
01:33 segomos i liked judaism
01:33 * rjbs speaks no ill of the people who brought us klezmer.
01:35 TimToady well, pretty much everyone mixes up their culture with their religion at some point, and we tend to be blind to our own layers of cultural interpreation
01:35 lue Huh, I didn't know these were things God supposedly couldn't do: lie, be tempted by evil, or quit :)
01:35 TimToady *interpretation
01:36 TimToady no, but apparently he's allowed to send a lying spirit to someone :)
01:36 geekosaur G-d can be misleading though :p this is in fact more or less necessary since mortals can't understand reality as G-d understands it
01:36 lue Now that I know that, I kinda want to see what it would look like if God just quit.
01:37 TimToady well, that's sort of deism
01:37 geekosaur Aristotle's unmoved prime mover?
01:39 geekosaur (that can't-understand is more or less how I reconcile Torah with the real world; it speaks directly to the comprehension of its time with hints at the reality embedded within, some of which we time-bound mortals will never understand)
01:40 segomos vampires
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01:41 segomos i don't know, this debate was pretty funny to me.  religious debates hardly ever end with 'i see your point'
01:42 TimToady well, most religious debates end up being cultural debates, alas
01:42 clsn Or wars.
01:42 TimToady well, that's a kind of debate :)
01:42 TimToady but we're very much into cross-culturalism in Perl-land
01:43 segomos wars are usually about something other than religion, they just use religion
01:43 TimToady not just wars :)
01:44 segomos it'd be cooler if the leaders of warring countries just had a wrestling match, no holds barred sans weapons
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01:44 segomos and then they just got up and shook hands the loser quit doing or started doing whatever
01:45 segomos then i guess dwayne johnson would just make other countries pay the US tribute and we could all twatter about it
01:47 segomos jean claude van damme would move back to belgium and ernesto hoost would rule the dutch and the us would slowly lose world domination as we realize football players and WWF actors aren't real badasses
01:49 segomos back to work..
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03:20 colomon Do we have a simple p6 way to get N equally spaced samples from A to B?
03:22 colomon I'm imagining something like "4.5 .. 8 take 6" giving you 4.5 5.2 5.9 6.6 7.3 8
03:23 colomon I'm always needing that in C++, and I've managed to once again lose the (clumsy but better than nothing) function to hide everything needed to make that work.
03:24 raydiak r: .say for 1, 3 ... 7
03:24 camelia rakudo-parrot 260cd7, rakudo-jvm 260cd7, rakudo-moar 260cd7: OUTPUT«1␤3␤5␤7␤»
03:24 raydiak r: .say for 1.1, 1.3 ... 1.7
03:24 camelia rakudo-parrot 260cd7, rakudo-jvm 260cd7, rakudo-moar 260cd7: OUTPUT«1.1␤1.3␤1.5␤1.7␤»
03:24 TimToady perhaps http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Numerical_integration#Perl_6 will be helpful
03:26 raydiak oh, I see...to give a number of samples, instead of a step size
03:27 TimToady it's straightforward as long as you keep it in Rats
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03:35 TimToady note that for six samples you want to do (8 - 4.5) / 5, since there are only five gaps
03:39 b^_^d timotimo: I really like your post on the new blog. i know it is wordpress, but pearlbee was just released. :D
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03:48 cognominal rjbs, do you know Krakauer and Abraham's Inc? I discovered it thx to rgs, it is a mix of klezmer with a lot of things
03:48 rjbs Nope!
03:49 rjbs cognominal: thanks, I've markde them to listen to on spotify tomorrow
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03:57 cognominal rjbs, I forgot to paste the link   http://vimeo.com/33788388
03:57 rjbs cool
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04:47 clsn perl6: multi sub one (Int $x) { $x*10 }; multi sub one (Str $x) { callwith(6) }; say one("abc");
04:48 camelia rakudo-parrot 260cd7, rakudo-jvm 260cd7, rakudo-moar 260cd7: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
04:48 camelia ..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  $x is declared but not used at /tmp/tmpfile line 1:â�¤------> [32m (Int $x) { $x*10 }; multi sub one (Str [33mâ��[31m$x) { callwith(6) }; say one("abc");[0mâ�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: No next function to call!â�¤  at /ho…»
04:48 clsn I'm pretty sure that isn't right... Oh well.
04:49 TimToady probably isn't pessimizing some optimization
04:50 TimToady and what if the candidate was rejected earlier, should it restart at the top?
04:51 TimToady the semantics are a bit unclear
04:52 TimToady but if you wanted to restart from the top, why not just call one(6) instead?
04:53 clsn I could use the sub name (I did in the code I was writing), but I thought it would be better to use one of the next* things; more generic.
04:53 TimToady perl6: multi sub one (Str $x) { callwith(6) }; multi sub one (Int $x) { $x*10 }; say one("abc");
04:53 camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  $x is declared but not used at /tmp/tmpfile line 1:â�¤------> [32mmulti sub one (Str [33mâ��[31m$x) { callwith(6) }; multi sub one (Int [0mâ�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: No next function to call!â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/…»
04:53 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 260cd7, rakudo-jvm 260cd7, rakudo-moar 260cd7: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
04:54 TimToady order doesn't appear to matter
04:54 TimToady perl6: multi sub one (Str $x where /./) { callwith(6) }; multi sub one (Int $x where .so) { $x*10 }; say one("abc");
04:54 camelia rakudo-parrot 260cd7, rakudo-jvm 260cd7, rakudo-moar 260cd7: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
04:54 camelia ..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  $x is declared but not used at /tmp/tmpfile line 1:â�¤------> [32mmulti sub one (Str [33mâ��[31m$x where /./) { callwith(6) }; multi sub[0mâ�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: No next function to call!â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/…»
04:55 TimToady even with constraints
04:55 clsn Apparently not.
04:55 TimToady so I'm guess the candidate list was already weeded down
05:00 TimToady r: multi sub one (Int $x where * !%% 2) { callwith(6) }; multi sub one (Int $x where * %% 2) { $x*10 }; say one(7);
05:00 camelia rakudo-parrot 260cd7, rakudo-jvm 260cd7, rakudo-moar 260cd7: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
05:00 TimToady r: multi sub one (Int $x where * !%% 2) { nextwith(6) }; multi sub one (Int $x where * %% 2) { $x*10 }; say one(7);
05:00 camelia rakudo-parrot 260cd7, rakudo-jvm 260cd7, rakudo-moar 260cd7: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
05:01 TimToady nah, just broke
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05:46 Mouq raydiak++ immediate, aweseome doc.perl6.org search
05:47 Mouq *#
05:47 TimToady o/
05:47 Mouq o/
05:48 Mouq That looks weird without marking it as a 'comment', even though marking comments as 'comments' is kind of weird in the first place
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05:50 TimToady you might be interested in the bug at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-02-11#i_8267511
05:50 TimToady since it works in niecza but not in rakudo
05:50 TimToady and has to do with the regex parser
05:51 Mouq TimToady: Whoa, :my token… :D I'd never concieved of that, that's pretty awesome
05:51 TimToady well, just falls out of the other rules
05:52 Mouq TimToady: True
05:53 Mouq TimToady: I'll at least look at it, I just noticed a bug with the search for doc.perl6.org I was hoping to fix quick
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05:53 TimToady np, just an idear
05:54 TimToady don't want you neglecting school, after all
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06:01 Mouq r: say "_language/operators#infix+X".substr(1).match(/(.*?)#(.*)/).join: '.html'
06:01 camelia rakudo-parrot 260cd7, rakudo-jvm 260cd7, rakudo-moar 260cd7: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Regex not terminatedâ�¤at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤------> [32mstr(1).match(/(.*?)#(.*)/).join: '.html'[33mâ��[31m<EOL>[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤  â€¦Â»
06:01 Mouq r: say "_language/operators#infix+X".substr(1).match(/(.*?)'#'(.*)/).join: '.html'
06:01 camelia rakudo-parrot 260cd7, rakudo-jvm 260cd7, rakudo-moar 260cd7: OUTPUT«language/operators#infix+X␤»
06:01 Mouq r: say "_language/operators#infix+X".substr(1).match(/(.*?)'#'(.*)/).list.join: '.html'
06:01 camelia rakudo-parrot 260cd7, rakudo-jvm 260cd7, rakudo-moar 260cd7: OUTPUT«language/operators.htmlinfix+X␤»
06:01 Mouq r: say "_language/operators#infix+X".substr(1).match(/(.*?)('#'.*)/).list.join: '.html'
06:01 camelia rakudo-parrot 260cd7, rakudo-jvm 260cd7, rakudo-moar 260cd7: OUTPUT«language/operators.html#infix+X␤»
06:02 Mouq r: say "_language/operators#infix+X".substr(1).match(/(.*?)('#'.*)/)[].join: '.html'
06:02 camelia rakudo-parrot 260cd7, rakudo-jvm 260cd7, rakudo-moar 260cd7: OUTPUT«language/operators.html#infix+X␤»
06:02 Mouq Cooool
06:03 Mouq Oh, wait that won't work
06:03 Mouq Because I'm dumb
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06:08 dalek doc: bea4d5c | Mouq++ | htmlify.pl:
06:08 dalek doc: Fix bug with search JSON containg URLs like "language/operators#infix+X.html"
06:08 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/bea4d5c0d1
06:12 dalek doc: df4cae5 | Mouq++ | htmlify.pl:
06:12 dalek doc: Fix bug caused by Mouq--
06:12 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/df4cae5715
06:16 * Mouq shouldn't be pushing commits while sick
06:16 * TimToady has been sick for 16 days now...
06:16 TimToady at least I stopped running a fever
06:17 Mouq TimToady: :( I'm glad you're at least getting better
06:17 Mouq TimToady: I hope you get well soon
06:17 TimToady likewise
06:19 Mouq thanks
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06:50 * Mouq waits to push his fix for #121229 until he sees if the issue can be fixed in NQP too
06:50 * synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=121229
06:50 Mouq nqp-j: https://gist.github.com/Mouq/8950902
06:51 camelia nqp-jvm: OUTPUT«Unrecognized regex modifier :my at line 3, near " token SIG"␤  in panic (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:378)␤  in  (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPP6QRegex.nqp:391)␤  in mod_ident:sym<oops> (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPP6QRegex.nqp:391)␤  in !protoregex (gen/jvm/stage2/QRegex.nqp:784)…»
06:52 Mouq Oh, wait...
06:52 Mouq nqp: my token Anything { shouldnt work }
06:52 camelia nqp-parrot: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near "my token A"␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 15952 (gen/parrot/stage2/NQPHLL.pir:5947) (gen/parrot/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:425)␤»
06:52 camelia ..nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near "my token A"␤   at gen/moar/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:369  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/languages/nqp/lib/NQPHLL.moarvm:panic:120)␤ from gen/moar/stage2/NQP.nqp:917  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/languages/nqp/lib/nqp.moarvm:comp_unit:346)␤ fro…»
06:52 camelia ..nqp-jvm: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near "my token A"␤  in panic (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:378)␤  in comp_unit (gen/jvm/stage2/NQP.nqp:922)␤  in TOP (gen/jvm/stage2/NQP.nqp:820)␤  in parse (gen/jvm/stage2/QRegex.nqp:1289)␤  in parse (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1377)␤  in…»
06:52 Mouq Yup, ok, well…
06:53 dalek rakudo/nom: 0d2b68f | Mouq++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp:
06:53 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix bug #121229 using MAIN's statement terminator
06:53 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0d2b68f909
06:53 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=121229
06:54 TimToady Mouq++
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07:00 * Mouq is happy to help
07:00 Mouq o/ TimToady, #perl6
07:01 TimToady night
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08:15 lizmat good *, #perl6 from the other side of our little pond
08:15 FROGGS hi lizmat
08:15 yoleaux 11 Feb 2014 23:10Z <pippo> FROGGS: after some testing with gdb. It appears that replacing 'handle->body.encoding_type' with 'body->encoding_type' on line 652 solves the problem.
08:15 yoleaux 11 Feb 2014 23:10Z <pippo> FROGGS: It appears that on line 649,  uv_run(tc->loop, UV_RUN_DEFAULT), is resetting 'handle' to 0x0. But 'body' maintains the address of the data structure.
08:16 lizmat FROGGS o/
08:17 FROGGS .tell pippo Yeah, I was fearing that running the loop would cause this... So we possible would just need to root it, but my gut feeling says that this issue is part of a bigger problem
08:17 yoleaux FROGGS: I'll pass your message to pippo.
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08:28 * raydiak just noticed that run doesn't seem to ever work for him, but shell does
08:31 raydiak has anyone else had that problem?
08:32 FROGGS no, it works very well for me
08:33 raydiak I've tried it on jvm on two machines and moar on one of the same machines
08:34 raydiak r: say run "echo" # if this isn't somehow disabled for security
08:34 camelia rakudo-jvm 0d2b68: OUTPUT«Proc::Status.new(exit => 0, pid => Any, signal => 0)␤»
08:34 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 0d2b68, rakudo-moar 0d2b68: OUTPUT«run is disallowed in restricted setting␤  in sub restricted at src/RESTRICTED.setting:2␤  in sub run at src/RESTRICTED.setting:8␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
08:34 raydiak I wonder what I'm doing to cause that
08:35 raydiak (by "that" I mean my original problem, of course, not the restricted setting)
08:35 FROGGS I dunno
08:35 FROGGS and have sadly no time atm (being in a call for a few hours)
08:36 raydiak it causes the docs to silently fail to generate images when I htmlify, which caused the images to all get broken on doc.perl6.org when I synced yesterday, which they still are
08:37 raydiak didn't notice until an hour or two ago, and have been trying to track down the precise problem since
08:38 * raydiak will just change that line to use "shell" for now, and re-run it
08:41 raydiak (though I kinda expect a funky character somewhere will break that)
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08:47 raydiak hooray, cleaned up my mess :P
08:53 timotimo o/
08:54 lizmat timotimo /o
08:55 * lizmat notes test failures in nqp after pulling last changes: t/serialization/01-basic.t ............ Failed 464/1355 subtests
08:55 FROGGS lizmat: for which backend?
08:55 lizmat moar
08:56 FROGGS hmmm, it should require latest moar which is supposed to pass these tests
08:56 * lizmat needs to signoff now
08:56 FROGGS o/
08:56 lizmat I'll try again later
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09:02 dalek doc: dc734bf | raydiak++ | / (7 files):
09:02 dalek doc: Move templates and parts into a 'template/' subdir
09:02 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/dc734bf239
09:02 dalek doc: 26dfd06 | raydiak++ | htmlify.pl:
09:02 dalek doc: Fix typo in path
09:02 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/26dfd0632f
09:02 dalek doc: 05fc6de | raydiak++ | htmlify.pl:
09:02 dalek doc: Merge github.com:perl6/doc
09:02 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/05fc6de7a3
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09:10 moritz raydiak++ # gving doc some love
09:12 raydiak raydiak-- # gving doc some breakage for the past 24-36 hours
09:13 moritz raydiak++ # gving doc some loving breakage :-)
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09:15 raydiak haha there's a terribly inappropriate joke in there somewhere
09:15 * moritz is sure there is
09:16 moritz fwiw doc.perl6.org seems to have around 7k visitors per month
09:17 timotimo that's not unique visitors, though?
09:17 raydiak r: say 7e3/30
09:17 camelia rakudo-jvm 0d2b68: OUTPUT«233.33333333333334␤»
09:17 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 0d2b68, rakudo-moar 0d2b68: OUTPUT«233.333333333333␤»
09:17 moritz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_%28negative%29#cite_ref-23
09:18 timotimo oh, haha
09:18 moritz timotimo: each combination of day+IP+referrer is counted as one visitor, afaict
09:20 moritz and (www.)perl6.org has about 24k visitors per month
09:21 timotimo crawlers filtered out already?
09:21 moritz http://perl6.org/page-stats/ has all the details
09:21 moritz timotimo: yes (those that play by the rules, at least)
09:22 raydiak moritz: is there any "maximum width" for the generated images? I noticed the typegraph image for Cool is wider than the width of the body set in the css
09:22 raydiak which you don't notice until you go trying to wrap them in something visible, like on http://p6doc.cyberuniverses.com/type/Cool
09:22 timotimo wow, there is a noticable difference between weekend and weekday visitors
09:22 moritz raydiak: I don't think so; iirc japhb_++ created those images, maybe he has a good idea for how to fix it
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09:23 timotimo 226 hits to /compilers/features/https://github.com/mj41/Perl-6-GD/raw/master/export/Summary - Compilers' feature...
09:23 timotimo %)
09:24 moritz raydiak: fwiw I'm not sold on the white-and-blue layout; if you have better ideas, feel free to change it
09:24 moritz though I do prefer black text on white background for the main copy
09:26 raydiak moritz: the images are graphviz-generated, so I can always adjust it on way or another, or adjust the width of the template (since I'll end up replacing it entirely anyway)
09:26 raydiak *one way or another
09:27 raydiak I was just trying to make my copy a little less heinous while I figure out what to *actually* do with the template
09:28 * moritz loves how he can create some content, and folks from the community make awesome layouts for it
09:28 moritz has happened to the IRC logs, perl6.org, the feature matrix
09:29 raydiak polish all the shinies!
09:30 raydiak have been trying to figure out what I can do to be more directly useful, doc.perl6.org looks like a good place to start
09:30 moritz aye
09:31 raydiak are we going to want other content on that site besides what is directly generated from the Pods? and if so, do we want that "other stuff" to be handled within the htmlify script?
09:32 moritz raydiak: what "other stuff" are you thinking about?
09:34 raydiak moritz: I am not sure if I have a specific, concrete idea atm, am just trying to determine the scope of the project
09:34 moritz raydiak: atm I don't have plans for other files
09:35 moritz but it's not really a question I've thought much about
09:35 raydiak we could have the synopses mirrored there, for one...of course those are pod too I assume, so that's not a very good example
09:37 raydiak I guess I'd just like to see more of the various official resources tied together so you don't have to jump around from site to site so much when you're looking things up in various ways
09:37 raydiak but maybe that'd be better handled by just making the docs better instead of tying a bunch of other stuff into the website
09:37 moritz aye
09:38 moritz the synopses aren't meant for users
09:38 moritz and we only link to them that often because we don't have anything better for users
09:39 raydiak good to know, that definitely makes some difference to the optimal look and feel
09:40 moritz for example at http://doc.perl6.org/type/List#combinations I try to give examples (and sometimes use cases), much more than the specs (which often deals with edge cases)
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09:42 raydiak I see
09:44 dalek doc: fcaca11 | moritz++ | lib/List.pod:
09:44 dalek doc: Fix heading (or lack thereof)
09:44 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/fcaca11c8d
09:45 moritz https://github.com/blog/1778-webhooks-level-up # woah, cool
09:47 timotimo not bad!
09:47 raydiak slick
09:59 raydiak okay, my thought processes are starting to feel like one of those fish I read about that swim in circles b/c by the time it gets back to where it started, it forgets it has already been there
09:59 raydiak so...g'night #perl6 :)
09:59 moritz good night raydiak, dream of non-cyclic, pretty p6 docs
10:01 FROGGS gnight raydiak
10:01 raydiak moritz: will do...exact shape of the pretty template is the main question I'm submitting to my subconcious tonight...sometimes it does my work for me while I sleep
10:02 masak antenoon, #perl6
10:02 raydiak really bed this time &
10:03 moritz \o masak
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10:08 tadzik sjn: arn<TAB><TAB>: beer next tuesday?
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10:09 jnthn morning, #perl6
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10:23 pmurias moritz: re synopses aren't meant for users, will there be a user oriented spec?
10:23 moritz pmurias: doc.perl6.org aims to be that
10:23 tadzik should a spec be user oriented? :) doc.perl6.org is, I think
10:29 pmurias doc.perl6.org seems to be a mixture of more introductory material and a method reference
10:30 pmurias as a user of other languages I find reading the spec usefull to the full way how things are supposed to behave
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10:33 jnthn pmurias: You are not a typical user.
10:34 jnthn Or at least, I've had my share of blank looks from other devs when a language question comes up and I say, "let's check the language spec". :)
10:35 jnthn (In languages besides Perl 6, I should add...)
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10:36 * jnthn will happily go find answers in language specs, but it doesn't seem to be a typical thing
10:38 moritz also most users ask themselves questions like "I have the list and what turn it into a string; are there any handy methods for that?"
10:39 moritz so a user-oriented doc should include methods from superclasses and roles (at least as links)
10:39 moritz those aren't interesting for an implementor
10:42 moritz and stuff like http://perlcabal.org/syn/S04.html#When_is_a_closure_not_a_closure simply isn't for users :-)
10:47 pmurias one thing that could be usefull is to have links in the more user oriented docs to the relevant synopsis parts
10:47 moritz agreed
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11:39 tadzik ooh! https://p6weekly.wordpress.com/
11:39 tadzik timotimo++
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11:44 colomon timotimo++
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11:47 tadzik perfect for coming up with changelogs for release announcements :P
11:50 mathw timotimo++ that is an excellent summary
11:56 colomon and an interesting summary, too.  I learned stuff.
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12:38 timotimo thanks :)
12:39 timotimo tadzik: though i used the existing changelog entries as a starting point :P
12:41 tadzik heh :)
12:50 timotimo well, i'm glad you people like it. that'll make it more likely that i'll continue working on this :P
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13:37 Ven moritz: meh. I see what you say, but really, having to read a bit of doc is not that bad
13:38 Ven you do need tutorials, that's for sure, and perl advent is a good thing in that sense
13:44 Ven timotimo++ # p6weekly is *great*, and it's very nice to have as a newcomer
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13:59 timotimo GlitchMr++ # deserves a big part of the praise for inspiring me
14:01 moritz [Coke]: could you please add https://p6weekly.wordpress.com/ to http://planeteria.org/perl6/ ? kthx.
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14:35 Ven /j #faytest
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15:06 moritz TIL that not all people have fingerprints: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/09/science/09obprint.html
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15:18 timotimo indeed. those who don't are clearly genetically engineered to be terrorists
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15:28 cognominal http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/11/science/camels-had-no-business-in-genesis.html?pagewanted=all
15:29 FROGGS joined #perl6
15:33 colomon cognominal: …. that seem like some dodgy logic to me.  I mean, I have no problem accepting that the Bible has been told and retold and meddled with.  But the idea that the closest they've come to finding camels in the periods depicted in the Bible is "decades" sounds extremely weak.
15:37 cognominal I don't know the accuracy of radiocarbon dating
15:41 FROGGS <mudler> i think there is an error on the wiki, the Allomorphic Types in Rakudo 6 it's pointing to Google-at-Home github page
15:41 FROGGS this is about http://wiki.enlightenedperl.org/gsoc2014/ideas
15:41 FROGGS does somebody have the correct link?
15:45 TimToady well, arguments from ignorance are always a bit dodgy; also, there might have been an intermediate stage where camels were kept in herds but used mainly for meat and such--people don't ride goats much either...
15:45 TimToady but anyway, I'm not largely invested in the exact historicity of Genesis
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15:47 TimToady I tend to rate the historicity as inversely proportional to the age inflation of the patriarch in question :)
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15:51 TimToady in any case, it's certain that megayear of ice in Antarctica did not float away recently
15:51 amkrankr1leuen joined #perl6
15:51 * colomon realizes he misread -- "centuries after the patriarchs."
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15:53 * colomon also realizes his elaborate math formula for $work is founded on something that simply will not work.  :\
15:54 TimToady and people who think hydrological sorting accounts for the fossil record are just in complete denial about the evidence
15:56 * masak read a bit too quickly and was disappointed when he realized "hydrological sorting" wasn't a new sorting method, like bogosort
15:57 moritz I thought it was a new sorting method (like lexicographic), not a new sorting algorithm :-)
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16:01 TimToady well, it's a sort of analog computing algorithm, but it's rather sloppy as these things go
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16:47 rjbs cognominal: listening to abraham inc, thanks :)
16:48 japhb__ raydiak: re: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-02-12#i_8271967 I did try to tune the basic heuristics to give a reasonable type graph at a readable size in most cases (just about any type graph you check should at least be *useable* if not ideal), but I didn't try to do an iterative algorithm like checking the output from graphviz, noticing it produced oddly proportioned results, and then tweaking the inputs.
16:51 japhb__ My one request if you decide to tweak the coloring of the typegraphs is that it work well for color blind people like myself, and try not to be excessively showy.  I tend to like clear, clean, and subtle if possible (but I'm not a designer, so I can't do an ideal job myself).
16:54 japhb__ hoelzro: re: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/8901287 , it might help to format the OK/NOT OK list at the bottom with a two column table, so the NOT OK stand out better.
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18:23 FROGGS hehe
18:23 FROGGS googling for "recursion" is kinda funny :o)
18:24 * masak .oO( did you mean 'googling for "recursion" is kinda funny'? )
18:24 masak re-curse means "to curse again", doesn't it?
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18:27 FROGGS masak: did you see the "did you mean" thingy?
18:27 FROGGS I like it :o)
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18:34 masak FROGGS: did you mean 'did you see the "did you mean" thingy?'?
18:45 FROGGS >.<
18:46 jnthn m: sub re-curse() { say 'shit'; re-curse }.()
18:46 camelia rakudo-moar 0d2b68: OUTPUT«(timeout)shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤shit␤sh…»
18:46 jnthn .oO( somebody had to... )
18:47 FROGGS m: class timeout { }; sub re-curse() { say timeout; re-curse }.()
18:47 camelia rakudo-moar 0d2b68: OUTPUT«(timeout)(timeout)␤(timeout)␤(timeout)␤(timeout)␤(timeout)␤(timeout)␤(timeout)␤(timeout)␤(timeout)␤(timeout)␤(timeout)␤(timeout)␤(timeout)␤(timeout)␤(timeout)␤(timeout)␤(timeout)␤(timeout)␤(timeout)␤(timeout)␤(timeou…»
18:49 hoelzro japhb__: it's a WIP; I wanted to get the results out before I left for vacation
18:49 hoelzro I'll adjust it after I return
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18:54 TimToady FROGGS: I think you wanted a print there instead of a say
18:55 TimToady well, you might need a .gist then
18:55 FROGGS yepp
18:56 TimToady either that or hack camelia to put a ␤ after (timeout) :)
18:56 FROGGS I decided it is good enough this way :o)
18:57 TimToady yeah, the perfect being the enemy of the good, the bad, and the ugly...
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19:11 FROGGS 15110 pts/3    R+     2:21 /home/froggs/dev/nqp/install/bin/moar [...]/perl6.moarvm --target=mbc --output=blib/lib/Panda/Ecosystem.moarvm lib/Panda/Ecosystem.pm
19:11 FROGGS hmmm
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19:40 tadzik oh!
19:42 FROGGS tadzik: it seems to get stuck in rakudo's module loader
19:42 FROGGS already debugging it
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20:58 dalek rakudo-star-daily: faf55ee | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
20:58 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
20:58 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/commit/faf55ee703
20:59 dalek perl6-roast-data: ba78c39 | coke++ | / (4 files):
20:59 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
20:59 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/ba78c39bbf
21:00 grondilu_ http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Grayscale_image#Perl_6  does not work on Rmoar:  "length out of range"
21:00 raydiak japhb__: I do intend to strike an appropriate balance for a documentation site, though everyone has a different idea of what "appropriate balance" means, so please do let me know if the end result is not adequately accessible for color-blind people, or those with an aversion to shininess :)
21:00 raydiak good afternoon, #perl6
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21:23 masak 'night, #perl6
21:23 raydiak \o masak
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21:30 btyler hi all. trying to get panda going on moarvm: just running 'bootstrap' runs into the hang that FROGGS++ noted earlier while compiling Ecosystem.pm. I can get past that by using a moar-hacked ufo to makefile compile/install panda's deps (JSON, File::Find, Shell::Command), and then using a ufo makefile to make panda. however! panda compiles up until "Panda.pm" and I get 'STable conflict detected during deserialization; probable at
21:32 timotimo aaw :(
21:33 btyler my ufo changes were basically just s/pir/mbc|moarvm/, which seems to do the trick
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21:59 sjn tadzik: sure, I'm up for a beer! :)
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22:03 itz btyler: I was trying something similar
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22:06 tadzik sjn: awesome :) I should arrive around 17-18 I guess
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22:06 btyler itz: did you run into the same blocker, or is there a way past the STable conflict?
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22:07 sjn tadzik: sounds good. you coming by yourself?
22:09 tadzik sjn: aye
22:09 tadzik well, the company sends me :)
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22:16 itz btyler: you got further than me! although I hadn't tried for a few days
22:17 itz btyler: I have a ufo fork on github although there is another with more changes
22:23 sjn tadzik: allright, let's have a beer or three :)
22:27 sjn tadzik: I *may* have to leave early though; Job gathering in Hamar on wednesday, and I'm assuming I'll have to jump on a train not too late
22:27 sjn on tuesday evening
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22:41 btyler itz: drat! I was hoping I was just doing something wrong. cool re ufo fork - presumably its a little more flexible about different backends?
22:43 btyler https://github.com/hoelzro/ufo looks like the most recently updated fork, with exactly that
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22:51 daxim I have a problem with nqp 2014.01.  when building with NQP_LIB_DIR set, then running nqp-j will output "Error: Could not find or load main class nqp"
22:51 timotimo that seems more like a classpath piece missing
22:52 timotimo that error probably happens way before anything that'd look at NQP_LIB_DIR
22:53 daxim no, even when I explicitly export CLASSPATH=/usr/share/java, it will have the same error
22:54 daxim my build conf is at https://build.opensuse.org/package/view_file/home:ldieckow:branches:devel:languages:parrot/nqp/nqp.spec?expand=1
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23:05 itz btyler: yes thats the one I meant
23:05 daxim no idea?  okay, let's skip jvm for now.  when building rakudo, the configure/make cannot find the NQP_LIB_DIR either:  http://paste.scsys.co.uk/304372
23:06 daxim it says /usr/languages/nqp/lib/*.{moarvm,jar}, but correct is /usr/lib/nqp/*.{moarvm.jar}
23:07 timotimo yeah, that does look wrong
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23:59 grondilu totally unrelated to P6:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptxe_3hJyx0

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