Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-02-16

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:00 spider-mario joined #perl6
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00:16 jnthn *sigh* a bunch of Windows batch file learnings later...
00:17 TimToady my condolences
00:17 TimToady maybe you should've written it in Perl :P
00:18 jnthn :P
00:20 timotimo if only at spectest time we had some kind of perl 6 interpreter available ...
00:22 jnthn OK, now (at least on my box) the socket tests don't hang. And all but 6 pass.
00:24 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
00:24 dalek roast: 9d9bc71 | jnthn++ | S32-io/IO-Socket-INET. (2 files):
00:24 dalek roast: Fixes socket tests on Moar on Windows.
00:24 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/9d9bc71691
00:25 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 8dc3a7f | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
00:25 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
00:25 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/8dc3a7f0fd
00:25 dalek perl6-roast-data: b524262 | coke++ | / (3 files):
00:25 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
00:25 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/b5242624bc
01:00 japhb .tell smls That mockup looks really good.  Aside from my general feeling that the green has been a bit too chartreuse for a while, I think it's excellent work.  +1 to make it so.
01:00 yoleaux japhb: I'll pass your message to smls.
01:01 jnthn japhb: You've got server sockets in Moar now too
01:09 dalek nqp: 84497ec | jnthn++ | / (2 files):
01:09 dalek nqp: Get Moar with server sockets; map setinputlinesep.
01:09 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/84497ec55c
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01:11 dalek rakudo/nom: d9c8083 | jnthn++ | src/core/IO/Socket.pm:
01:11 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix recv with no length specified.
01:11 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d9c8083420
01:11 dalek rakudo/nom: 7f0cc2b | jnthn++ | / (2 files):
01:11 dalek rakudo/nom: Bump to Moar and NQP with server socket bits.
01:11 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7f0cc2bbb6
01:14 pippo r: my $s = 'ooooooooooooooo'; $s ~~ s/o+/o/; say $s;
01:14 yoleaux 12 Feb 2014 08:17Z <FROGGS> pippo: Yeah, I was fearing that running the loop would cause this... So we possible would just need to root it, but my gut feeling says that this issue is part of a bigger problem
01:14 camelia rakudo-parrot f35ca0, rakudo-jvm f35ca0, rakudo-moar f35ca0: OUTPUT«o␤»
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01:16 pippo r: my $s = "ooooooooooooooo"; $s ~~ s/o+/o/; say $s;
01:16 camelia rakudo-parrot f35ca0, rakudo-jvm f35ca0, rakudo-moar f35ca0: OUTPUT«o␤»
01:17 pippo r: my $s = "Hellooooooooooooooo"; $s ~~ s/o+/o/; say $s;
01:17 camelia rakudo-parrot f35ca0, rakudo-jvm f35ca0, rakudo-moar f35ca0: OUTPUT«Hello␤»
01:20 pippo On my latest git of JVM and Moar running my $s = "Hellooooooooooooooo"; $s ~~ s/o+/o/; say $s; gives Hellooooooooooooooo!!
01:21 jnthn Hm
01:21 jnthn I have a HEAD MoarVM Rakudo here and...
01:21 jnthn > my $s = "Hellooooooooooooooo"; $s ~~ s/o+/o/; say $s;
01:22 jnthn Hello
01:25 pippo jnthn: use the RPL and do it once. Then up arrow and enter to repeat. What do you get?
01:27 jnthn pippo: Just did it ten times; Hello consistently.
01:29 pippo r: my $s = 'Helloooooooooooooooo'; $s ~~ s/o+/o/; say $s; my $s = 'Helloooooooooooooooo'; $s ~~ s/o+/o/; say $s;
01:29 camelia rakudo-parrot f35ca0, rakudo-jvm f35ca0, rakudo-moar f35ca0: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤    Redeclaration of symbol $sâ�¤    at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤    ------> [32moooooooo'; $s ~~ s/o+/o/; say $s; my $s [33mâ��[31m= 'Helloooooooooooooooo'; $s ~~ s/o+/o/;[0mâ�¤Helloâ�¤Helloâ�¤Â»
01:31 [Coke] right. REPL is more forgiving about redeclarations, IIRC.
01:32 pippo jnthn: do not know why but here it does not work the second time in the REPL. Strange... I'll recompile from a fresh git... Thank you and good night.
01:33 jnthn Yeah, sleep is a good idea :)
01:34 jnthn 'night, #perl6
01:34 pippo left #perl6
01:34 masak 'night, jnthn
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02:24 Mouq perl6: say -1 +> 1
02:24 camelia rakudo-parrot f35ca0, rakudo-jvm f35ca0, rakudo-moar f35ca0, niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«-1␤»
02:25 Mouq perl6: say -100 +> 1
02:25 camelia rakudo-parrot f35ca0, rakudo-jvm f35ca0, rakudo-moar f35ca0, niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«-50␤»
02:34 TimToady grondilu: I disagree with your last change; qu was intended to be for the users as much as for the module writer
02:35 TimToady like the 'set' or 'bag' helpers
02:36 lue TimToady: qu?
02:37 TimToady http://rosettacode.org/mw/index.php?title​=Quaternion_type&amp;curid=7858&amp;diff=​176481&amp;oldid=176469&amp;rcid=206201
02:38 TimToady why force the user to say Quaternion.new()
02:40 TimToady I just suspect that if you're doing a few Quaternions, you're doing a lot of 'em
02:42 * lue imagines Quaternion.new() has arguments for it that are similar to those of the *_cast<> family in C++
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02:54 Mouq Hey, #perl6, any ideas for shortening this? https://codegolf.stackexchang​e.com/questions/20995/#21006
02:54 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=21006
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02:59 TimToady use lsb or msb?
03:01 Mouq TimToady: ...yes. Yes. That would probably be a good idea -_-
03:01 Mouq TimToady: Thank you
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03:05 TimToady r: say 0.msb
03:05 camelia rakudo-parrot 7f0cc2, rakudo-jvm 7f0cc2, rakudo-moar 7f0cc2: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
03:05 TimToady r: say -1.msb
03:05 camelia rakudo-parrot 7f0cc2, rakudo-jvm 7f0cc2, rakudo-moar 7f0cc2: OUTPUT«0␤»
03:06 TimToady r: say -1.lsb
03:06 camelia rakudo-parrot 7f0cc2, rakudo-jvm 7f0cc2, rakudo-moar 7f0cc2: OUTPUT«0␤»
03:07 grondilu TimToady: I thought this would make it more analogous to Complex.
03:08 grondilu the standard way to create a complex is to either use Complex.new or the i suffix.
03:08 grondilu so as soon as we have the j and k suffixes, we don't need qu
03:09 lue grondilu: there's no literal for Quaternions defined, unlike Complex's <1+2i> . qu() seems to be close to what we want in that case.
03:15 Mouq TimToady: Actually, I thought .lsb or .msb would make everything easier, but it seems to be less helpful than I'd hoped
03:17 TimToady if the idea is to treat it as always unsigned, maybe +& with 2^64-1 or so first?
03:17 TimToady well, % 2**64 might be shorter
03:18 grondilu lue: there's no quaternion literal, but since the task defines j and k postfixes, there are algebraic expressions such as 1+2i+3j, which is arguably very close to a quaternion literal.
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03:19 lue yeah, though I suspect there's a reason TimToady didn't think constant folding was good enough :)
03:19 grondilu fine, I'll change back the task.
03:20 grondilu does it have to be a multi, though?
03:20 Mouq TimToady: Hrm.. The OP seems to be saying it should be signed, but wasn't very specific. I think I'm simply going to remove my answer for now
03:23 timotimo do we have something like "is there a character available to be read" on moarvm? or a kind of select?
03:23 timotimo for file handles and such
03:30 timotimo i kind of think IO::Handle should have something like that. or maybe a getc that doesn't block or something like that
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05:12 Mouq I doubt I'll complete this, so here: https://gist.github.com/Mouq/9029616
05:15 Mouq I had a solution that was correct, of course, but it wasn't as much fun as this version
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06:41 moritz \o
06:59 moritz m: say Int.^parents
06:59 camelia rakudo-moar 7f0cc2: OUTPUT«␤»
06:59 moritz huh?
06:59 moritz m: say Int.^parents(:all)
06:59 camelia rakudo-moar 7f0cc2: OUTPUT«(Cool) (Any) (Mu)␤»
06:59 moritz oh
06:59 moritz m: say Int.^parents(:all, :tree)
06:59 camelia rakudo-moar 7f0cc2: OUTPUT«(Cool) (Any) (Mu)␤»
06:59 moritz m: say Int.^parents(:all, :tree).perl
06:59 camelia rakudo-moar 7f0cc2: OUTPUT«([Cool, [Any, [Mu]]],)␤»
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07:19 dalek doc: 0d938ff | moritz++ | lib/objects.pod:
07:19 dalek doc: Add some links
07:19 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/0d938ffd79
07:19 dalek doc: 861e01f | moritz++ | lib/objects.pod:
07:19 dalek doc: MOP: can, parents
07:19 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/861e01fcee
07:19 dalek doc: cbe2e65 | moritz++ | lib/objects.pod:
07:19 dalek doc: MOP: mention that .^methods actually returns a list of method objects
07:19 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/cbe2e65a15
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07:38 FROGGS_ good morning
07:41 moritz good morning FROGGS_
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07:48 FROGGS_ huh, perl6-m IO-Socket-INET.t only fails test 34 and 36 on linux...
08:00 moritz t/spec/S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.t                              (Wstat: 0 Tests: 41 Failed: 21)
08:00 moritz Failed tests:  1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23
08:00 moritz 25, 27, 29, 31-32, 34, 36, 38, 40
08:00 moritz that what I get (also linux)
08:00 moritz oh
08:00 moritz my rakudo is too old
08:00 moritz never mind
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09:23 FROGGS_ the IO-Socket-INET.t would pass if we'd loop in IO::Socket.read like we do for jvm, but I leave it untouched because I am not sure how jnthn++ wants it to happen
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09:41 grondilu linux here.  IO-Socket-INET.t passes all but 34 ane 35.  FWW
09:41 grondilu s/ane/and
09:41 grondilu (with perl6-m, that is)
09:42 FROGGS_ mine failed 34 and 36
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09:43 FROGGS_ easy to fix though
09:44 grondilu details: https://gist.github.com/grondilu/9031858
09:44 grondilu oh sory, that was 34 nd 36 indeed
09:44 FROGGS_ yeah, that matches
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09:59 [Sno] I heard from liz at niederrhein.pm that there is a MoarVM "released" and a rakudo-star based on it?
10:00 [Sno] is that early early adopter (I don't find something on http://rakudo.org/)
10:02 FROGGS_ [Sno]: the module installer does not work yet on moar, and there should be nativecall support to support DBIish module
10:03 FROGGS_ [Sno]: so you can build rakudo on moar, but you can't play well with modules yet
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10:05 [Sno] thanks - that I probably don't package this version :)
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10:22 masak antenoon, #perl6
10:23 FROGGS_ hi masak
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10:35 * timotimo hunts moar memory wastage
10:45 * timotimo is confused by MVMString
10:45 FROGGS_ ===CONFUSED===
10:55 timotimo either this is wrong, or i just can't make sense out of it.
10:57 timotimo it seems like the string comparison code will only work if one of the two strings is a 32bit string and the other is an 8bit string
10:57 timotimo in both directions, but not when both of them are the same type
10:57 timotimo wtf :(
10:59 timotimo i think i'll lie down again >_<
10:59 timotimo https://github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/b​lob/master/src/strings/ops.c#L184 ← in the mean time ... whhhaaaaa??
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11:30 moritz ok, I can reproduce that the socket tests 34 and 36 fail on linux
11:31 moritz http://perlpunks.de/paste/show/5300a184.6d9a.1a3
11:38 jnthn moritz: They fail on Windows too.
11:39 jnthn moritz: I wanted to do some research to see if they're kosher...
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11:43 FROGGS_ jnthn: well, it is just that one requested something bigger than chunksize, no?
11:44 moritz just ftr, they pass on the JVM
11:44 jnthn recv on Linux appears to take a MSG_WAITALL flag that determines if it shuld wait for enough data to satisfy the amount requested, or block until connection close. The open group have the same explanation.
11:44 moritz not sure if that means anything
11:44 jnthn recv in Perl 5 also takes flags
11:45 jnthn Presumably one of them would be MSG_WAITALL too
11:45 jnthn The thing is that some use cases really don't want to block
11:45 FROGGS_ yeah
11:46 jnthn You'd like to .recv and get what's there
11:46 jnthn Not hang around waiting.
11:48 FROGGS_ but I don't wanna get a chunk either when there is already more
11:50 moritz maybe we should really expose those flags to the user
11:51 jnthn In the test, the server *deliberately* sleeps for a second between sending each packet.
11:51 jnthn There's certainly not "already more" :)
11:52 jnthn Well, currently we have this:
11:52 jnthn method recv (Cool $chars = $Inf, :$bin? = False) {
11:53 jnthn We could make it so a plain .recv means "give me back the next packat worth's of data"
11:54 jnthn And if you .recv($chars) (which is really .recv($bytes) in :bin mode) then that's your "I really want that amount" indicator
11:55 FROGGS_ +1
11:56 jnthn Oh, the test in question uses .read also...
11:57 jnthn So maybe it's just read that should get the "wait" semantics?
11:58 jnthn Lemme try that.
11:59 jnthn yeah, that makes it pass :)
12:01 dalek rakudo/nom: 385ae4e | jnthn++ | src/core/IO/Socket.pm:
12:01 dalek rakudo/nom: Make read have wait semantics, like elsewhere.
12:01 dalek rakudo/nom:
12:01 dalek rakudo/nom: Unbusts the last failing sockets tests on Moar.
12:01 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/385ae4efbc
12:02 FROGGS_ jnthn: umm, I think there should be an #?if !parrot instead
12:02 jnthn oh, darn
12:03 dalek rakudo/nom: 230a54b | jnthn++ | src/core/IO/Socket.pm:
12:03 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix conditional comp mess-up; FROGGS++.
12:03 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/230a54b533
12:04 vendethiel a few typo I noticed in S05/6, where to pr ?
12:06 jnthn vendethiel: perl6/specs repo
12:06 vendethiel seems like I can't do it from gh web interface
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12:21 newbie_Perl6_ I have some ideas, some suggestions. Change the regex modifiers :i to :C, :m to :M. Use the negative meaning of uppercase letters, just as the negative meaning of \D, \W etc.
12:26 nwc10 are the spectest percentages going to look better this evening?
12:27 jnthn nwc10: Should do, due to passing socket tests :)
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12:29 jnthn newbie_Perl6_: Even if that is a good idea (I'm not sure, :i and :m are culturally well engrained, and :c has a meaning unrelated to case), it's probably a bit late to be changing things like that.
12:30 newbie_Perl6_ Thank you for your reply.
12:31 newbie_Perl6_ I think,:ignorecase and :ignoremark have some kind of negative meaning.
12:31 jnthn Well, with colonpairs the negation syntax is :!foo
12:32 newbie_Perl6_ Understanded.
12:33 jnthn I tend to see the things you put before regexes as tweaks to the default semantics, though.
12:38 newbie_Perl6_ I just think, :m as the acronym of :ignoremark, :c as the acronym of :ignorecase, but :c already uses as the acronym of :continue.
12:38 newbie_Perl6_ I have not some deep meaning.
12:40 grondilu well done guys
12:40 grondilu $ prove -e perl6-m t/spec/S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.t
12:40 grondilu t/spec/S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.t .. ok
12:40 grondilu All tests successful.
12:40 jnthn phew :)
12:40 jnthn grondilu: Linux? Or something else?
12:41 grondilu linux
12:41 jnthn k
12:41 * jnthn hops an OSX user will pop up with a positive/negative at some point :)
12:42 jnthn uh, hopes
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12:51 vendethiel damn, does somebody have http://ftp.heanet.ie/mirrors/fosdem-video/2014/K​3201/Saturday/Perl_6_what_can_you_do_today.webm with a little better mic maybe ?
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12:56 nwc10 jnthn: 34 and 36 fail. I don't have time to investigate - I am required to go out and feed the ducks: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/306601
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12:57 nwc10 that was OS X. Specifically Snow Leopard
12:57 jnthn nwc10: That was the failure mode before my Rakudo commit a few moments ago.
12:57 jnthn (On Windows and Linux also.)
12:57 jnthn Are you at HEAD?
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13:10 pippo vendethiel: look here http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2014-02-08#i_8253359
13:11 pippo vendethiel: the beginning is not good but afterwards it improoves very much.
13:11 vendethiel pippo: erm. thanks. Not sure how you got my call, but I'll thank the internet gods
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13:45 grondilu fg
13:45 grondilu ah wrong terminal, sorry
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14:33 moritz http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/arti​cles/java/jf14-date-time-2125367.html
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15:03 masak moritz: interesting reading.
15:03 masak moritz: reminds me of zefram's talk last YAPC::EU.
15:03 * timotimo gets a little bit frustrated with moarvm for the moment
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15:26 masak wow, some people really like inheritance: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/​21692193/why-not-inherit-from-listt
15:28 masak I think the confusion behind that SO question is connected to a certain kind of thinking about how OO "should" behave.
15:28 masak (a kind of thinking that I no longer subscribe to)
15:28 moritz masak: in my early OO days my thoughts were quite similar
15:29 moritz (partially because nobody taught me better, and I didn't really know why my own class designs went wrong so spectacularly)
15:29 masak maybe a person *has* to start learning OO (and modeling) from that direction, I dunno.
15:29 masak or maybe just a small number of people get it right from the start.
15:29 masak I'd like to find a name for the kind of thinko that leads to that kind of SO question.
15:30 masak something like "real-world modeling over-attachment".
15:30 masak but that doesn't abbreviate nicely :)
15:30 moritz I think a good reason is that many OO books don't include many examples for good design
15:30 moritz which is no surprise if you start with class Dog is Mammal { ... }
15:31 timotimo heh.
15:31 masak yeah, coming up with good examples is hard.
15:31 moritz I noticed :-)
15:31 masak even books that are good tend to, somewhere, contain an *apology* of the form "I know this is oversimplified, but I had to pare things down significantly because it's a book and because I want to show principles, not make a real-world example"
15:32 arnsholt Teaching is really hard
15:32 jnthn In one course I wrote there was some inheritance...but by the end of the course it'd been refactored into composition...
15:32 masak well, I'm coming around strongly to the idea that there are two disjunct forms of teaching.
15:33 masak there's "lies to children"/"it's simple, look"
15:33 masak and there's "explanations to grownups"/"let me tell you the gory details"
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15:34 masak I tend to keep that distinction in mind when developing Beginner-level and Intermediate-level courses at Edument.
15:35 * moritz is pretty bad at beginner-level teaching
15:35 masak top answer at HN has an interesting point, as well: "Do you want to be able to pass in Team for every function that currently asks for List<T>? Because that is what you are stating through the act of subclassing."
15:38 nwc10 jnthn: I thought that I was on HEAD, but clearly I wasn't as I am now and they all pass
15:39 FROGGS_ cool!
15:39 FROGGS_ so win32, linux and mac is fine :o)
15:40 timotimo \o/
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16:06 ajr_ One of the problems of teaching is knowing the subject too well. Passing from "Unconscious Incompetence" (not knowing what you don't know), through "Conscious Incompetence", (knowing what you don't know), to "Conscious Competence" (knowing what you know), to "Uncoscious Competence", (being able to do it without thinking), we forget what was difficult in the first stages.
16:07 timotimo aye.
16:08 ajr_ There's an optimum level of competence for a teacher, which I suspect is just slightly ahead of the students.
16:09 ajr_ Sometimes, of course, the students contribute to the teacher's knowledge. (See Feynman on the subject.)
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16:17 masak ajr_: I think it's simply important to be able to remember, in sufficient detail, what it was like not to know the subject matter.
16:18 arnsholt Yeah. That's really hard though
16:19 ajr_ Right. That's not so hard if you learned the subject recently, (and had some difficulties doing so), but there's such a  state as being too good at it.
16:19 timotimo .o(amnesia: a teacher for pigs)
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16:29 moritz well, if the teacher isn't ahead far enough of the students, she might share the same confusion as the students
16:30 moritz which is one of the reasons that students flock around the luminaries in a field
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16:39 masak swapping between the teachers and students' point of view carries some of the highest rewards for me when I'm teaching. it's extremely tiring, but also satisfying.
16:39 masak it's a rare privilege to be allowed write access to people's brains :>
16:40 moritz w 17
16:40 moritz sorry, forgot that slash :)
16:41 timotimo moritz: you should try weechat, you can hit alt-j 1 7 instead of typing /w 17
16:41 masak :)
16:41 * masak should try weechat too
16:41 raiph I'd say recent brain science increasingly supports the supposedly disproven notion that many fundamental dichotomies of human experience, including distinctions in teaching/learning modalities like lies/details, fairly directly correspond to the distinct perspectives and interwoven contributions to consciousness of folks' left and right cerebral he
16:41 raiph mispheres
16:41 timotimo raiph: i have no idea how to interpret that piece of knowledge
16:41 moritz timotimo: esc+u also works in irssi; I just don't always use that feature
16:41 timotimo moritz: yeah, but that takes away the whole second row of keys on your keyboard :P
16:42 raiph timotimo: I suspect that's your left hemisphere balking :)
16:42 moritz raiph: what does that mean?
16:42 timotimo :D
16:43 hoelzro timotimo: done anything with the Qt creator highlighting yet?
16:45 raiph classic example from, I think, the late 80s: lady has her corpus collosum cut; asked "is your left hand numb?"; is shown 'yes' and 'no'; asked to point to correct answer; what happened? her left and right arms fought; which won and why?
16:45 arnsholt Oooh, the Object types corresponding to Java's native number types all inherit from a single superclass \o/
16:45 arnsholt That's one annoying switch block I don't have to write
16:48 masak raiph: I'm reminded of Julian Jaynes's "Bicameral Mind" theory.
16:49 masak raiph: http://blog.plover.com/brain/Jaynes.html
16:50 ajr_ "The Bicameral Mind" was fascinating, but it seemed too recent and too fast for such a profound change.
16:50 geekosaur the naïve one was disproven. the reality turns out to be a lot more complex (unsurprisingly) and brain hemisphere does play into it... but not the way the naïve one claims
16:53 berekuk joined #perl6
16:53 ajr_ When teaching a new topic, it's important to relate it to something the student already knows, (if possible).
16:53 raiph jayne's theory was incredibly speculative, contains major errors and appeared in the 60s.
16:54 raiph ajr_: there's a core issue -- what someone knows and whether they know they know.
16:54 raiph ajr_: does Joe know he saw a saw? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCv4K5aStdU
16:55 ajr_ It's impossible to process a completely new experience; it has to be repeated to be comprehensible. That's why it's much easier to teach a third programming language than a first one.
16:56 ajr_ raiph: yes, and also the form in which one knows it. Try communicating a physical skill verbally; you'll almost certainly omit some very important features..
16:58 zby_home_ joined #perl6
16:58 moritz masak: that link is fascinating; I could never have gotten the idea that so much culture could have been created without consciousness
16:59 masak yeah, it's a wacky idea.
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17:03 raiph michael gazzaniga (main guy in video I linked) is a very well respected brain scientist; his stuff is about excellent science driven by experimental evidence rather than highly speculative stuff like jaynes' (not saying to what degree I think Jaynes is wrong, right, crazy, or whatever, just that there's much more solid science on this topic which i
17:03 raiph s not wacky)
17:03 sunnavy_ joined #perl6
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17:05 masak *nod*
17:07 raiph masak: have you read TMAHE? http://www.iainmcgilchrist​.com/comments.asp#content
17:07 timotimo hoelzro: what does "anything" mean in this case?
17:08 hoelzro timotimo: any work whatsoever =)
17:08 timotimo didn't you see my stuff i posted yesterday? :)
17:08 timotimo http://i.imgur.com/1pCDtco.png?1
17:08 timotimo https://github.com/timo/perl6-kate-syntax
17:09 grondilu joined #perl6
17:09 hoelzro no, I hadn't!
17:09 hoelzro very nice!
17:10 timotimo feel free to finish my work
17:10 timotimo it's super crappy at the moment :)
17:10 hoelzro timotimo: I can't make any promises; the next week or two will be hectic
17:10 hoelzro but I'll take an invite to the quest =)
17:10 jercos joined #perl6
17:11 timotimo \o/
17:12 Psyche^ joined #perl6
17:13 arnsholt jnthn: How heavy-weight are CallSiteDescriptors? Better to create one for a callback type and reuse it, or just create new ones for each invocation?
17:13 masak raiph: I hadn't, but it's now on my wish list.
17:14 jnthn arnsholt: Not too bad, but I'd still re-use it.
17:14 jnthn arnsholt: Unless it's a real pain to do so.
17:14 arnsholt Nah, the callback handler oboject carries around a fair chunk of state already, so that's not a problem
17:15 daxim joined #perl6
17:17 * moritz subscribes to MJD's blog
17:20 raiph masak: 12 minute version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFs9WO2B8uI
17:33 ajr joined #perl6
17:58 hoelzro timotimo: I like the way you grab the operator list
17:58 berekuk joined #perl6
17:58 timotimo :)
17:58 timotimo i was like "nope, not going to do this by hand"
17:59 hoelzro =)
18:02 hoelzro that syntax file is actually pretty simple
18:03 hoelzro bravo kate folk
18:04 timotimo it may be simple, but i had a hard time wrapping my head around how it exactly operates
18:04 timotimo anyway, i'm glad you're enjoying it! makes it easier for you to finish my shoddy work :)
18:07 hoelzro heh
18:07 fridim_ joined #perl6
18:07 hoelzro "hoelzro: director of syntax highlighting"
18:07 timotimo :D
18:07 timotimo has a certain ring to it, doesn't it
18:10 tadzik Grammar, Lights, Actions!
18:15 * moritz wonders if somebody has hacked avar's twitter account
18:17 timotimo who is that?
18:17 moritz a perl hacker who used to be active in Perl 6 community as well
18:17 spider-mario joined #perl6
18:18 * moritz always feels that the question who somebody is actually deserves a 2-hour explanation
18:18 avar moritz: I think I just hacked my own account.
18:18 tadzik :)
18:18 moritz avar: do explain
18:19 avar I was uploading some skiing videos from this week: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?feature=edit_​ok&amp;list=PLStqrm3-3tOOxRYaZZtIttmcGh9NHiny1
18:19 avar Apparently I don't understand social thingies and my youtube is bound to my twittertube
18:19 avar Although I guess I could use it for that spam, not like I use it for anything else :)
18:19 moritz avar: if it's any consolation, I wouldn't have expected that either
18:21 tadzik FROGGS_: ooooh. I just saw 20bd2341081207 on panda/moar-support
18:21 tadzik it explains _so_ _many_ _things_ :)
18:22 avar moritz: If you want to follow me on twitter my alter-ego is much more exciting so far: https://twitter.com/_IcelandMan
18:22 tadzik oh, nevermind
18:22 tadzik I misread it
18:23 * avar beams away
18:23 tadzik HOLY BATMAN
18:23 tadzik panda is so crazy fast on moarvm, it may actually make using it pleasant rather than painful
18:23 tadzik copying files is still slow tho
18:25 berekuk joined #perl6
18:25 timotimo how do we copy files, ooc?
18:25 timotimo shouldn't the operating system do the heavy lifting for us?
18:25 timotimo and is panda actually contacting the server to get the project list?
18:26 tadzik hard to say, as bootstrap fails with STable deserialisation conflict
18:26 timotimo if it's relying on wget or some local cache to be pre-socket-moar-compatible, that may cause a bunch of fastness
18:26 tadzik it's all using IO.copy, in a file-find loop
18:26 tadzik and for some reason that's annoyingly slow
18:26 tadzik although the bug with copying the entire .git/ may still be there...
18:26 timotimo hehe.
18:26 timotimo yeah, many small files.
18:27 ajr joined #perl6
18:37 raydiak morning
18:37 yoleaux 15 Feb 2014 22:19Z <smls> raydiak: I've made some mockups showing how I think the structure and design of doc.perl6.org could be improved further: http://imgur.com/a/y1dHo -- What do you think?
18:40 raydiak .tell smls I think you did an awesome job, though I also would consider a different book icon.  also, the colors are still up in the air, so feel free to play more with them. many people don't like the current combinations, and I'm not very sold on them myself. make sure you get moritz++'s input too. smls++!
18:40 yoleaux raydiak: I'll pass your message to smls.
18:41 benabik smls++
18:41 timotimo \o/
18:41 raydiak .tell smls as for the structure, layout, etc, my first impression is that it is quite well-considered :)
18:41 yoleaux raydiak: I'll pass your message to smls.
18:49 raydiak ugh. is winter over yet? :P
18:49 benabik Yes, south of the equator.
18:49 gfldex it was 10C here in germany ther whole day
18:50 raydiak a week or so ago it was about -25C here, counting wind chill
18:51 gfldex the total amount of cold on the planet seams to have a limit
18:51 raydiak I can only hope
18:53 raydiak weather permitting, several times a week I usually drive to the edge of town and run around in the hills and trees and jump off big rocks like a wild animal. it's part of what keeps me sane. being cooped up sitting in a chair all day *really* starts to wear on me by the end of the cold season
18:54 timotimo like an animal? that sounds like fun
18:54 raydiak it is, quite. basically freerunning out in the woods
18:55 raydiak other times I balance on fallen trees and practice martial arts, or just walk peacefully and appreciate the immense amount of plant and animal life I'm surrounded by
18:55 timotimo :3
18:57 * raydiak has a viable exit plan for the zombie apocalypse :)
18:57 arnsholt raydiak: Cross-country skiing is a good way to get out and about in the cold season
18:57 arnsholt Perhaps not that well suited to running like an animal, though =)
18:58 raydiak I'd love to try skiing some day...and snowboarding, and a bunch of other things
18:58 raydiak but for now I'm constrained to activities which are free or nearly so
18:58 ajr_ joined #perl6
19:00 raydiak also really need to look for more clients or a traditional job, once weather permits
19:01 raydiak guess I'm whiny today :)
19:05 timotimo https://gist.github.com/timo/41d9eb48aea43a48d35a - happy scrolling
19:06 dmol joined #perl6
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19:09 raydiak http://p6doc.cyberuniverses.com/ # does this arrangement of colors look better than what is currently on doc.perl6.org?
19:11 timotimo i think so
19:12 raydiak it still has the green next to the yellow, but now it's on the footer instead, which I kinda want less contrast around anyway, and the header is blue like perl6.org's home page
19:13 Sqirrel joined #perl6
19:15 FROGGS_ hmmm, I like the footer but not the header :/
19:16 ajr joined #perl6
19:17 denis_boyun joined #perl6
19:18 raydiak FROGGS_: did you like the green header more? or neither one?
19:19 FROGGS_ I like the the green header but not the three bars it had
19:19 raydiak three bars?
19:19 FROGGS_ in the preview where there was that book on the left
19:19 raydiak oh, that was smls' mockup...none of that actually exists yet, I'm just working on getting the colors right still
19:20 FROGGS_ yeah... I like it but I think it could be a bit "cleaner" http://imgur.com/a/y1dHo
19:21 raydiak it looks like he just went with the colors we have live right now and focused on the layout and structure, which is probably not the colors we will have in the end
19:21 rindolf joined #perl6
19:21 FROGGS_ I love that camelia watermark and the overall layout in his mockup though
19:23 raydiak yep, it looks a lot more like a real website
19:23 FROGGS_ exactly
19:27 raydiak I'm basically just cleaning and tweaking today (the things I said I'd do yesterday), so I can have this step taken care of, and just take it easy for a few days...burning myself out, RL is getting stressful
19:28 raydiak clear my head, and come back fresh :)
19:28 FROGGS_ that sounds like a good plan :o)
19:28 lue FROGGS_: is it possible that the header and main box border are messing you up because complementary colors?
19:28 berekuk joined #perl6
19:29 FROGGS_ lue: I think it is just that kind of blue that does not look right to me
19:30 lue I don't mind that blue, though it looks... interesting next to the yellow. Perhaps switching the colors of the main box and footer box?
19:31 raydiak lue: you think the green border would look okay next to the blue header?
19:31 lue .oO(Web Design: where bikeshedding is the only thing to do.)
19:31 raiph masak: The Master and His Emissary Introduction chapter is online: http://www.iainmcgilchrist.com/The_Mast​er_and_his_Emissary_by_McGilchrist.pdf
19:31 lue raydiak: let me check before confirming :)
19:31 raydiak ha ha :)
19:32 fgfgh joined #perl6
19:32 fgfgh how to install perl 6
19:32 raydiak lue: I changed the css so you can just change the classes "red", "blue", etc on each of the boxes in dev tools/firebug/whatever
19:32 raydiak got tired of all the copy and pasting hex codes all over the place
19:32 timotimo fgfgh: the easiest way is to download the rakudo star tarball from rakudo.org if you're on linux or mac, or the .msi if you're on windows
19:33 Rotwang joined #perl6
19:33 fgfgh Thanks i will try now
19:33 timotimo the readme in the source tarball will tell you to run perl Configure.pl --gen-nqp or something similar and that should get you started right away
19:33 berekuk joined #perl6
19:34 lue raydiak: see for yourself: http://i.imgur.com/MaYMTGS.png
19:35 raydiak oh, that does seem to work..."cool and pleasant" is the feel, at least for me
19:36 lue And the footer box below would take on the yellows presumably
19:36 zakharyas joined #perl6
19:37 raydiak htmlify is running while I take a few minutes break; should update on my server in 5 or 6 minutes
19:41 berekuk joined #perl6
19:43 hoelzro raydiak++
19:43 hoelzro lue: I like that a lot
19:46 berekuk joined #perl6
19:48 Celelibi joined #perl6
19:48 raydiak yeah, I'd consider that an improvement for sure
19:50 raydiak still looking for somewhere I could add a little contrasty accent toward the top, but as we move toward better navigation and organization along the lines of smls' ideas, that will solve itself
19:50 raydiak just putting camelia on there will help a lot
19:50 timotimo sounds likely
19:54 raydiak anyone know where can I find the sources for camelia? I assume there's an svg or something
19:56 timotimo in perl6/mu
19:56 timotimo "most unexpected"
19:57 lue raydiak: https://github.com/perl6/mu/tree/master/misc  <-- camelia.*
19:57 moritz raydiak: perl6/evalbot
19:57 moritz oh, you didn't mean the bot :-)
19:57 raydiak ah, awesome, thanks
19:58 arnsholt Progress!
19:58 raydiak actually, I had wondered about the bot at other times, too, so good to know
19:58 timotimo arnsholt: oooh, do tell! :D
19:59 arnsholt 7 passing callback tests on JVM, out of 9
19:59 timotimo \o/
19:59 hoverboard joined #perl6
19:59 timotimo how's your tuit supply look like the rest of the week?
19:59 timotimo Rakudo Coffeecup this month? :3
20:00 denisboyun joined #perl6
20:05 raydiak I notice the camelia svg lacks the ™ seen on perl6.org...is that critical?
20:06 lue raydiak: https://github.com/perl6/mu/​blob/master/misc/camelia.txt
20:06 lue second paragraph
20:06 raydiak footnote it is :)
20:08 arnsholt HAHA!
20:10 benabik »ö«™ ?
20:11 moritz benabik: »ö« is an icon, not our main logo :-)
20:17 jnthn arnsholt: Pass all the things? :)
20:19 arnsholt Yeah, all the callback tests pass now
20:19 arnsholt But some unexpected breakage in the cstruct tests
20:19 arnsholt There we go. Wasn't a regression introduced by the callback stuff
20:22 * arnsholt goes to put the kettle on
20:24 tadzik arnsholt: :D
20:24 tadzik arnsholt: that's awesome!
20:24 jnthn arnsholt++
20:24 tadzik arnsholt++
20:25 timotimo arnsholt++
20:25 lue arnsholt++
20:25 masak arnsholt++
20:25 moritz arnsholt++
20:25 dalek zavolaj: d58590f | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | t/05-arrays.t:
20:25 dalek zavolaj: Use concrete value when testing CArray[OpaquePointer].
20:25 dalek zavolaj:
20:25 dalek zavolaj: This uncovers some missing functionality in on JVM the old code missed.
20:25 dalek zavolaj: review: https://github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/commit/d58590f0a0
20:25 dalek zavolaj: dc75c36 | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | lib/NativeCall.pm6:
20:25 dalek zavolaj: Properly decont in typed CArray STORE/FETCH.
20:25 dalek zavolaj: review: https://github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/commit/dc75c36e61
20:25 dalek zavolaj: 2f3cfad | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | lib/NativeCall.pm6:
20:25 dalek zavolaj: Store return type object for callbacks.
20:25 dalek zavolaj: review: https://github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/commit/2f3cfad9c5
20:28 FROGGS_ arnsholt++ # sorry, I am late
20:33 arnsholt Such karma, much happy, wow. =)
20:34 moritz dogecallbacks!
20:35 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
20:40 dalek nqp: 8c67bb1 | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/n​qp/runtime/NativeCallOps.java:
20:40 dalek nqp: Make better use of ExceptionHandling.dieInternal() in NativeCallOps.
20:40 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/8c67bb10a4
20:40 dalek nqp: dc7d396 | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nq​p/sixmodel/reprs/CStruct.java:
20:40 dalek nqp: Better commenting of code-gen in CStruct.java.
20:40 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/dc7d396d7c
20:40 dalek nqp: baf1a11 | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/ (3 files):
20:40 dalek nqp: Implement NativeCall callbacks on JVM.
20:40 dalek nqp:
20:40 dalek nqp: This passes the NativeCall test suite, so it should be pretty functional. No
20:40 dalek nqp: doubt there are bugs lurking though.
20:41 dalek nqp:
20:41 dalek nqp: With this, the only missing pieces for NativeCall on JVM are CArray of
20:41 dalek nqp: pointer-valued classes, and the nqp::nativecallrefresh op.
20:41 hoverboard joined #perl6
20:43 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
20:51 * jnthn wonders if DBIish now works on JVM :)
20:52 arnsholt Worth giving a shot
20:52 arnsholt Might block on the missing CArray stuff though
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22:28 LLamaRider joined #perl6
22:28 LLamaRider o/ #perl folks! Is there an estimate as to when Panda will support MoarVM?
22:38 tgt joined #perl6
22:51 tadzik it almost does
22:51 tadzik on the moar-support branch
22:51 tadzik it's blazingly fast =)
22:52 tadzik but there's a deserialisation bug that keeps it from truly working
22:57 Mouq r: .permutations.say for (^3).combinations(2)
22:57 camelia rakudo-moar 230a54: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'postcircumfix:<[ ]>'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Any \SELF, int $pos)␤:(Any \SELF, int $pos, :BIND($BIND)!)␤:(Any \SELF, int $pos, Any :SINK($SINK)!, *%other)␤:(Any \SELF, int $pos, Any :delete($delete)!, *%other)␤:(Any \SELF,…»
22:57 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 230a54, rakudo-jvm 230a54: OUTPUT«0 1 1 0␤0 2 2 0␤1 2 2 1␤»
22:58 jnthn tadzik: I'm working on it. I'll have it nailed soon :)
22:58 Mouq I don't know what RM's problem is here
22:58 jnthn Mouq: Me either; didn't get to look at that one yet.
22:58 Mouq r: .perl.say for (^3).combinations(2)
22:58 camelia rakudo-parrot 230a54, rakudo-jvm 230a54, rakudo-moar 230a54: OUTPUT«[0, 1]␤[0, 2]␤[1, 2]␤»
22:59 Mouq r: .permutations.WHAT.say for (^3).combinations(2)
22:59 camelia rakudo-parrot 230a54, rakudo-jvm 230a54, rakudo-moar 230a54: OUTPUT«(List)␤(List)␤(List)␤»
23:01 dalek nqp: 8181f81 | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl​6/nqp/sixmodel/reprs/CArray (2 files):
23:01 dalek nqp: Implement remaining cases of CArray.
23:01 dalek nqp:
23:01 dalek nqp: All that's remaining for JVM NativeCall now is nqp::nativecallrefresh.
23:01 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/8181f81c06
23:04 hoverboard joined #perl6
23:11 tadzik jnthn: awesome :)
23:13 kurahaupo joined #perl6
23:27 crab2313 joined #perl6
23:29 dalek nqp: 81e634a | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/n​qp/runtime/NativeCallOps.java:
23:29 dalek nqp: Make NativeCallOps.toJNAType handle type objects gracefully.
23:29 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/81e634a596
23:31 dalek zavolaj: 291e6b9 | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | t/07-writebarrier.t:
23:31 dalek zavolaj: Correct wording of a test description.
23:31 dalek zavolaj: review: https://github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/commit/291e6b9d61
23:35 pippo left #perl6
23:36 lue tadzik: is it just me, or is Shell::Command's cp() horrendously slow?
23:38 lue Oh wait, it might not be cp() after all
23:41 lue I'm pretty sure File::Find's find() is more likely (using the :dir and :name adverbs there)
23:46 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 0cddf76 | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
23:46 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
23:46 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/0cddf76d69
23:46 dalek perl6-roast-data: 276ce9f | coke++ | / (4 files):
23:46 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
23:46 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/276ce9f617
23:50 japhb lue: Last time I went deep down that path, I found it was ultimately canon_path that was killing performance for a lot of operations that need to work with directories and paths.
23:51 japhb s/deep down that path/deep down that rabbit hole/
23:51 lue that's not in File/Find.pm though
23:51 japhb lue: Are you sure it isn't implicitely *used* by File::Find?
23:52 japhb It was surprising how many operations on paths eventually ended up there.
23:52 lue Unless it's an NQP function or something, no.
23:53 lue I'm going to replace find() with a terribly platform-dependent version for the time being, because the performance hit is impossible to function with.
23:53 tadzik lue: hm. It may be
23:53 tadzik maybe it's worth looking into
23:55 tadzik it's seems there's a lot work involved in getting paths right; I wonder if we can find something that'll be right-enough
23:56 lue That's just great; apparently qx and qqx are broken :(
23:56 tadzik :o
23:58 Sqirrel joined #perl6
23:58 raydiak may be entirely unrelated, but run doesn't work for me, while shell does...wonder if something is partially broken in that area
23:59 lue r: qx'find . -name *pod';
23:59 camelia rakudo-parrot 230a54, rakudo-jvm 230a54, rakudo-moar 230a54: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile�Unsupported use of . to concatenate strings; in Perl 6 please use ~�at /tmp/tmpfile:1�------> [32mqx'find . [33m�[31m-name *pod';[0m�»
23:59 Mouq raydiak, lue: On latest MoarVM? Wasn't this something addressed very recently?
23:59 lue nope, general rakudo
23:59 lue r: qx/find . -name *pod/;
23:59 camelia rakudo-jvm 230a54: ( no output )
23:59 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 230a54, rakudo-moar 230a54: OUTPUT«qx, qqx is disallowed in restricted setting␤  in sub restricted at src/RESTRICTED.setting:2␤  in sub QX at src/RESTRICTED.setting:9␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»

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