Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-03-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 pecastro joined #perl6
00:01 Mouq timotimo: Indeed :)
00:03 timotimo that doesn't fix the path fuckup :)
00:03 timotimo do you have an idea of the whole makefile stuff?
00:04 Mouq me? nope.. :/
00:04 timotimo hm.
00:07 * Mouq isn't even sure where the $(DESTDIR) is defined in Rakudo
00:07 Mouq Ahh tools/distro/rakudo.spec
00:08 Mouq I think....
00:09 Mouq No? Apparently I know how none of this stuff works
00:10 timotimo :)
00:10 timotimo i've been staying away from makefiles any more complex than a few lines with only very few variables in them
00:12 lue I prefer cmake whenever possible :)
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00:15 timotimo i prefer someone else does it
00:15 timotimo whenever possible
00:15 timotimo but since it's jnthn who's been banging his pretty head against this piece of work ...
00:17 Mouq Okay, DESTDIR shouldn't actually be defined in the Makefile
00:17 * Mouq is a newb
00:19 timotimo okay, seems to be a normal thing
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00:20 timotimo how about PREFIX, though?
00:22 lue Where things are installed, e.g. PREFIX=/usr/local and then BINDIR=${PREFIX}/bin ...
00:23 timotimo right; but does it get set by something outside of the Makefile?
00:23 timotimo because i can only see PREFIX_DIR = @prefix@ there
00:23 lue timotimo:  perl Configure.pl --prefix=/usr/local  :)
00:23 lue wait, PREFIX is the one that's not used, right?
00:23 timotimo i didn't give it any --prefix, is "" the default?
00:23 timotimo PREFIX is used
00:23 Mouq PREFIX = @prefix@ in Rakudo's tools/build/Makefile-common.in
00:24 timotimo PREFIX_DIR also.
00:24 timotimo this here is Makefile.in from star, though
00:25 Mouq Then $(PREFIX) is wrong. It should be $(PREFIX_DIR)
00:25 lue timotimo: without --prefix, the script searches for where stuff is already installed, and takes that as the prefix. (at least for NQP and Rakudo; Parrot defaults to /usr/local, Moar defaults to wherever isn't typical, forget the exact path)
00:25 Mouq Or change PREFIX_DIR to PREFIX
00:25 Mouq In Star's Makefile.in
00:25 timotimo that caused badness :)
00:26 lue well, it only searches for an in-source installation, last time I tried. That's why I have to do --prefix=/usr/local for NQP and Rakudo
00:27 Mouq timotimo: PREFIX -> PREFIX_DIR causes badness?
00:27 timotimo it seemed so, aye
00:27 Mouq :?
00:27 timotimo /usr/bin/perl tools/build/bin-install.pl /tmp/rakudostar/rakudo-star-2014.03/install/bin/perl6-m /tmp/rakudostar/rakudo-star-2014.03/install/tmp/rakudostar/rakudo-star-2014.03/install/bin modules/ufo/bin/ufo-m modules/panda/bin/panda-m modules/doc/bin/p6doc-m
00:28 timotimo there is no /tmp/rakudostar/rakudo-star-2014.03/install/bin/perl6-m for example
00:29 Mouq timotimo: Are you sure that's not just because it got further in the build process and ran into another bug?
00:30 timotimo hm
00:30 timotimo mayhaps.
00:30 timotimo let me try again.
00:33 timotimo oh, hold on
00:34 timotimo something's moving
00:34 timotimo thanks for making me try again :)
00:34 Mouq timotimo: Np, any progress?
00:34 lue Apparently PREFIX = $(PERL) $(CURDIR)/tools/star/prefix.pl  , so I imagine it serves a very different purpose from PREFIX_DIR
00:35 Mouq It compiles! https://github.com/Mouq/Archive-Tar/blob/master/lib/Archive/Tar.pm6
00:35 Mouq lue: Where did you get that?
00:36 lue tools/star/Makefile
00:36 Mouq Oh bluh
00:36 Mouq Okay :|
00:36 timotimo base64 is failing, as perhaps expected
00:37 timotimo (on jvm, that is)
00:37 Mouq lue: That's used differently though
00:37 Mouq That's used as a program prefix in tools/star/Makefile
00:38 Mouq And the Makefile.in uses it like a DIR prefix
00:38 lue Mouq: yeah, I'm just stating that trying to rename one to the other won't work :)
00:38 lue (or, more specifically, the reason why it didn't work before)
00:38 Mouq lue: Ah, ok
00:39 lue Yeah, Makefile.in is using $(PREFIX), not sure why that is actually. (Of course, I'm not quite sure what prefix.pl is even doing, so... :P)
00:42 timotimo Can't deserialize_stub a NativeCall object.
00:42 timotimo that's known to fail on jvm?
00:42 Mouq prefix.pl is just renaming directories to have a certain prefix :P like, all the Rakudo stuffs need to reference the rakudo/ directory
00:43 Mouq (Apparently)
00:43 lue timotimo: don't know :/
00:43 timotimo good lord, jvm module installation precompilation
00:43 timotimo is there ever a wait
00:44 BenGoldberg Just to reduce confusion, I would want to rename the PREFIX that goes to prefix.pl ... maybe a name like PREFIX_PL.
00:44 timotimo ufo doesn't have multiple -* binaries
00:44 lue That's right, star/tools/Makefile is for the tarball-maker, Makefile.in is used by star when you're compiling it. So they can each use PREFIX how they wish, I would think.
00:44 timotimo so it fails to install (with the changes i made)
00:44 timotimo (which explains why it fails i bet :P )
00:45 Mouq PREFIXIFIER
00:45 Mouq $(BEINGAMAKEFILEVARIABLEMAKESMEANGRY)
00:46 lue CHPREFIX, perhaps? :)
00:51 timotimo fortunately i can ctrl-c through all of the module precomp without the makefile getting shot down m)
00:53 timotimo conflicts during deserialization
00:53 timotimo on moarvm
00:53 timotimo Cannot read file 'modules/panda/bin/panda-m' for installing it: No such file or directory at tools/build/bin-install.pl line 12.
00:53 timotimo and this of course
00:54 timotimo well, this ought to get jnthn a tiny bit closer to what he needs to see without too much pain
00:55 dalek star/tristar: 7be70fd | (Timo Paulssen)++ | / (2 files):
00:55 dalek star/tristar: fix some more problems
00:55 dalek star/tristar: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/7be70fd124
01:00 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 8915768 | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
01:00 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
01:00 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/commit/8915768575
01:00 dalek rakudo-star-daily: b021630 | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
01:00 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
01:00 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/commit/b021630302
01:00 dalek perl6-roast-data: 6e94899 | coke++ | / (6 files):
01:00 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
01:00 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/6e9489937c
01:00 dalek perl6-roast-data: d302cbe | coke++ | / (3 files):
01:00 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
01:00 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/d302cbeb5c
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01:04 Mouq timotimo: How do you test stuff in the star repo?
01:08 Mouq nvm: make -f tools/star/Makefile
01:09 Mouq Hm.. maybe not
01:09 timotimo that's about it, like jnthn explained above
01:10 timotimo you make that, then you make -f ... release VERSION=2014.03
01:10 timotimo you'll get a tarball from that, extract it somewhere and perl Configure.pl etc etc
01:10 timotimo edit the tools/build/Makefile.in and Configure.pl there and test it all out, copy back what works to the original
01:10 Mouq Ironically, it doesn't work with my version of tar
01:11 Mouq After make -f tools/star/Makefile:
01:11 Mouq tar --xform 's!parrot-[^/]*!parrot!' -xvzf src/parrot-5.9.0.tar.gz
01:11 Mouq tar: Option --xform is not supported
01:11 timotimo huh?
01:11 timotimo well, you only just started implementing tar, so maybe that's just not implemented yet :P
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01:12 geekosaur mac by any chance?
01:12 Mouq geekosaur: Yuppers
01:12 geekosaur --xform is a gnu tar option; macs have BSD tar
01:13 geekosaur (aka libarchive tar)
01:15 timotimo want my tarball?
01:16 * geekosaur suggests if you want to do that somewhat portably, you want pax and its -s option
01:17 * Mouq just pushes
01:17 timotimo it's "only" 14 megabytes
01:17 Mouq Or.. not
01:18 * Mouq doesn't have permissions anyway
01:18 Mouq timotimo: Could you try: https://gist.github.com/Mouq/13827a05e35f5dc0ceb3
01:18 Mouq It should give the same results
01:18 Mouq :P
01:19 Mouq But I think it's de facto Makefile law that thee must use DESTDIR
01:19 timotimo only 9.5 megabytes with xz :)
01:20 timotimo isn't that the same changes i made?
01:20 timotimo oh
01:20 timotimo i made them and forgot to push
01:20 timotimo apparently >_<
01:21 timotimo huh.
01:21 timotimo did you pull before you made these changes?
01:21 Mouq timotimo: Yup
01:21 timotimo but with my changes it already ran pretty far?
01:21 Mouq timotimo: Dunno
01:21 Mouq :P
01:21 Mouq Can't run tar
01:22 Mouq Or tar --xform anyway
01:23 timotimo right
01:23 timotimo i guess i'll apply your patch and shoot a tarball your way?
01:23 timotimo can you extract .xz?
01:23 Mouq I should...
01:24 Mouq be able to
01:24 Mouq timotimo: But don't worry about it :)
01:24 Mouq I don't think I'll be of much help
01:25 timotimo i'd like you to be, though :P
01:30 timotimo dropbox isn't connecting right now, i'll have to try something else
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01:31 timotimo okay it's going up
01:34 timotimo "upload error"
01:36 Mouq geekosaur: pax won't really work because it's not integrated with gzip :/
01:36 Mouq geekosaur: So it'll work, but I'm not sure that's a big boost in portability. And I don't know if cygwin supports pax…
01:37 geekosaur gzip -dc foo.tar.gz | pax -r ...
01:37 Mouq geekosaur: Can't pipe, not portable :P
01:37 Mouq I don't think
01:38 timotimo https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ttk2k8pr2m18ec/rakudo-star-2014.03.tar.xz
01:38 timotimo try this
01:38 Mouq (You might be right, of course, and I'm just being disagreeable)
01:39 geekosaur pretty sure windows has had real pipes since windows nt. other platforms, well, whcih ones are we targeting?
01:40 timotimo commuting time!
01:40 geekosaur also, if you are worried about portability then you cannot rely on gtar because it uses a pipe to run gzip
01:40 geekosaur it's not builtin
01:42 Mouq timotimo: Let me try getting it to work now that I've realized I can't just `curl` from the dropbox website :L
01:45 Mouq timotimo: Sweet :) Thanks
01:46 Mouq Oh, also o/ timotimo :P
01:46 * Mouq wasn't paying attention
01:46 Mouq geekosaur: K
01:46 Mouq geekosaur: I have no idea what I'm talking about in that case
01:47 Mouq *in most cases
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02:07 Mouq So, it's not done yet
02:08 Mouq But, with the tarball timotimo++ sent me, I'm almost done installing most of a Jakudo star…
02:10 Mouq Looks like MIME::Base64 and its dependencies failed, as well as DBDish and JSON::RPC
02:10 Mouq And Digest::MD5
02:11 Mouq Which ought to, the module it basically a single Q:PIR block :P
02:11 Mouq Oh
02:11 Mouq == Installing binaries for JVM
02:11 Mouq /Users/amoquin/perl5/perlbrew/perls/perl-5.18.1/bin/perl tools/build/bin-install.pl /Users/amoquin/Dev/Perl6/tmp2/rakudo-star-2014.03/install/bin/perl6-j /Users/amoquin/Dev/Perl6/tmp2/rakudo-star-2014.03/install/bin modules/ufo/bin/ufo-j modules/panda/bin/panda-j modules/doc/bin/p6doc-j
02:11 skids Was about to say...
02:11 Mouq Cannot read file 'modules/ufo/bin/ufo-j' for installing it: No such file or directory at tools/build/bin-install.pl line 12.
02:11 Mouq make: *** [modules-install-j] Error 2
02:11 * Mouq spoke far too sone
02:12 * Mouq refuses to correct sone and proclaims it a new word
02:13 * lue always thought it was a bad idea to write Perl 6 modules in not-Perl 6 ...
02:13 Mouq A "sone" appears to be a "subjective unit of loudness for an average listener […] that has an intensity 40 decibels above the listener's own threshold of hearing"
02:13 Mouq Sorry for speaking so loudly guys
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02:22 timotimo Mouq: 'tis okay, i was on the freeway doing 80 kph
02:22 timotimo so i didn't hear you speak that loudly
02:23 Mouq timotimo: Oh, good :)
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02:23 Mouq running make install again with [ufo-j,panda-j,p6doc-j]>>.subst(/-j/,'')
02:24 timotimo Mouq: you know in ~12 hours i'll do a p6weekly post, you feel free to make all that stuff work until then for great karma points :D
02:24 Mouq timotimo: :D... except: school D:
02:25 timotimo if your school is anything like mine, you'll have plenty time for Perl 6 in between breaks :P
02:27 Mouq timotimo: I'm thinking my school is a little bit more "high school"-y than yours
02:27 timotimo heh.
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02:48 retupmoca MIME::Base64 HEAD should compile fine on non-parrot (granted, I only tested on moar)
02:48 retupmoca Mouq: what revision of MIME::Base64 are you trying to compile?
02:50 timotimo retupmoca: i think the modules in the star repo are quite a bit behind, actually
02:51 retupmoca ah
02:51 retupmoca I fixed non-parrot compilation only a couple of days ago
02:51 timotimo i remember that fondly :)
02:51 Mouq retupmoca: 76fd9decc7c1445
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02:51 timotimo the coolest way to push a whole bunch of submodules forwards, btw, is to use git submodule foreach in conjunction with gitk --all
02:52 timotimo because then you can right-click on the commit you want and "reset master branch to here"
02:52 timotimo and when you close gitk, the next one will come right up
02:52 timotimo until you're done
02:53 retupmoca Mouq: that's branch precompile-fix
02:53 retupmoca Mouq: if you update it to HEAD of master branch, it should compile
02:54 timotimo good night #perl6 :)
02:54 timotimo Mouq: maybe you can figure out how to make the modules that create binaries create binaries for each of the backends; though i think froggs' eleven branches of panda and friends have something for exactly that
02:54 Mouq timotimo: I think the simplest way to do the final line (ufo-j, panda-j, p6doc-j) is to have bin-install.pl take "j" as an argument and write both a.) bin/whatever, like it used to, and b.) bin/whatever-j that's just perl6-j calling bin/whatever
02:55 Mouq timotimo: The modules already have logic to handle stuff based on what perl6 executes them
02:55 timotimo ah
02:55 Mouq retupmoca: I don't have push access to rakudo/star :(
02:55 timotimo Mouq: i'm not allowed to give you access :(
02:56 timotimo fortunately, you can fork on github easily :)
02:56 timotimo with the github gem, it's just "hub fork"
02:56 Mouq timotimo: I don't know though, I don't know what stuff's going on with the eleven branches
02:56 timotimo it'll even set up the remotes for you
02:56 Mouq timotimo: I'll make a PR :)
02:57 timotimo maybe FROGGS++ will help me write up a couple of paragraphs on what eleven already can do (which was a surprisingly big amount last time i asked) and what's to be expected in the near future
02:57 timotimo Mouq: right now or some time in the future?
02:57 timotimo as in: should i go to bed now or wait for the PR?
02:59 timotimo it probably makes no big difference
02:59 Mouq timotimo: Bed with you :) I need to figure some stuff out
02:59 timotimo o/
02:59 Mouq o/ timotimo
02:59 timotimo aye
02:59 timotimo best of luck and have fun in school :)
02:59 Mouq timotimo: Thanks, sleep well :)
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08:03 dalek star/tristar: 786ece4 | Mouq++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
08:03 dalek star/tristar: fix some less problems
08:03 dalek star/tristar:
08:03 dalek star/tristar: DESTDIR should still be there, by de facto Makefile law, AFAICT
08:03 dalek star/tristar: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/786ece4752
08:03 dalek star/tristar: 4a39421 | Mouq++ | tools/build/ (2 files):
08:03 dalek star/tristar: Let ufo, panda, and p6doc figure out what they're running on
08:03 dalek star/tristar: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/4a394218f0
08:03 dalek star/tristar: 469f8c0 | Mouq++ | modules/Perl6-MIME-Base64:
08:03 dalek star/tristar: Update MIME::Base64
08:03 dalek star/tristar: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/469f8c06bf
08:03 dalek star/tristar: d0da84f | moritz++ | / (3 files):
08:03 dalek star/tristar: Merge pull request #36 from Mouq/tristar
08:03 dalek star/tristar:
08:03 dalek star/tristar: Some updates to tristar
08:03 dalek star/tristar: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/d0da84fdc4
08:07 moritz .tell Mouq I've given you a commit bit for rakudo/star
08:07 yoleaux moritz: I'll pass your message to Mouq.
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09:12 masak morning, #perl6
09:13 moritz good morning, masak | #perl6
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09:18 nwc10 good #perl6, morning.
09:24 JimmyZ good moar, perl6
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10:14 Ulti new python release has asyncio in case anyone is interested in what it looks like http://docs.python.org/3.4/library/asyncio.html
10:14 yoleaux 11 Mar 2014 18:27Z <raiph> Ulti: warn ^Inf # I love the idea of elegant golf with P6. For example, refusing to omit spaces when it would work but be ugly.
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10:25 pmurias jnthn: what would be a portable way of having a list of tests to run for the js-test target for the js nqp backend?
10:27 dalek nqp-js: 0844fa0 | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/core/NQPMu.nqp:
10:27 dalek nqp-js: Temporarly add nqp-js hacks to the setting.
10:27 dalek nqp-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/nqp-js/commit/0844fa05ee
10:27 dalek nqp-js: 6b6e179 | (Pawel Murias)++ | tools/build/Makefile-JS.in:
10:27 dalek nqp-js: Build a QASTNode for the js backend.
10:27 dalek nqp-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/nqp-js/commit/6b6e179f9e
10:27 dalek nqp-js: fb5b4b7 | (Pawel Murias)++ | tools/build/Makefile-JS.in:
10:27 dalek nqp-js: Build QRegex for use by the js backend, pass more tests.
10:27 dalek nqp-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/nqp-js/commit/fb5b4b7e9e
10:28 lizmat decommute&
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10:37 pmurias jnthn: do we want to expose nqp::ordat and nqp::ordfirst to the user?
10:40 dalek nqp-js: f4c1e4b | (Pawel Murias)++ | t/nqp/59-nqpop.t:
10:40 dalek nqp-js: Add a test for two argument nqp::ord.
10:40 dalek nqp-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/nqp-js/commit/f4c1e4b9da
10:40 dalek nqp-js: 6bc483c | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/nqp-runtime-core/runtime.js:
10:40 dalek nqp-js: Implement nqp::ordat and nqp::ordfirst in the js backend.
10:40 dalek nqp-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/nqp-js/commit/6bc483c070
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10:57 dalek nqp-js: c0c1aad | (Pawel Murias)++ | tools/build/Makefile-JS.in:
10:57 dalek nqp-js: Use the full nqp setting in the js backend (that makes subst work).
10:57 dalek nqp-js:
10:57 dalek nqp-js: Also use a saner suffix for the concatenated setting (.nqp instead of x)
10:57 dalek nqp-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/nqp-js/commit/c0c1aad4fc
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12:22 [Coke] I wonder if I'm the only one who read "asyncio" in backscroll in the voice of someone casting a spell in HP.
12:23 colomon [Coke]: I am reading it that way now, and probably forever more...
12:23 [Coke] Infected! woot!
12:25 * timotimo is deciding not to engage naysayers on twitter
12:26 colomon timotimo: pretty much always someone wrong on the Internet....
12:26 timotimo in this case it's pretty obvious they haven't taken the time to actually look.
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12:38 [Coke] twitter leads me to: https://github.com/timbunce/java2perl6
12:39 [Coke] whose last commit is 4 years ago. might need some love.
12:39 timotimo yes, it seems like a very different approach to java interop than the jvmbootinterop we have in rakudo-jvm
12:41 timotimo a friend pointed out, that if you visit perl6.org, it doesn't really tell you what perl6 is about at all.
12:42 [Coke] ENOMARKETING
12:42 [Coke] or, very little, anyway.
12:42 timotimo yeah
12:42 tadzik heh
12:43 tadzik if you don't know what Perl 5 is, you'll have no idea what Perl 6 is
12:43 [Coke] seen timbunce?
12:43 [Coke] .seen timbunce?
12:43 yoleaux I haven't seen timbunce? around.
12:43 [Coke] .seen timbunce
12:43 yoleaux I haven't seen timbunce around.
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12:46 Maddingue [Coke]: timbunce is still in Paris (QA hackathon)
12:46 Maddingue http://act.qa-hackathon.org/qa2014/wiki?node=Travel
12:47 Maddingue s/Paris/Lyon/
12:47 timotimo the hackathon is already over, though. isn't it?
12:47 Maddingue yes, ended yesterday
12:50 timotimo OK
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13:34 timotimo i'm glad i could enthuse Mouq for the build system job
13:35 timotimo at least a little bit :)
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13:49 pmurias timotimo: re java2perl6, I think the goal behind that wasn't interop but to use the java database driver api for perl6
13:50 timotimo oh, hm
13:50 nwc10 "are we nearly Star yet?" :-)
13:50 timotimo :)
13:51 timotimo well, when i put the type-based dispatch into jvmbootinterop (knock on wood), a JDBC driver will be much nicer to make, i reckon
13:53 colomon joined #perl6
13:57 timotimo it's already possible to make, but you're going to have to supply all the full method signatures directly in the code
13:57 timotimo well, not all of them, but most by far
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14:08 pmurias timotimo: the JDBC driver api was intented to be used on different platforms (like parrot then and moarvm nowdays)
14:08 timotimo ah
14:08 timotimo well, that's not that easy :)
14:08 pmurias with a nice perlish DBI api on top
14:08 timotimo you'll have to have a java process somewhere in there
14:09 pmurias and with drivers themself being written in Perl 6
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14:12 me5purnd perl6 devs now moving too fast ... please *slow down* development to normal speed :-\
14:13 me5purnd j/k
14:13 me5purnd (bad)
14:14 timotimo i wouldn't mind Perl 6 development speeding up some more
14:15 PerlJam .oO( I wouldn't mind a Perl 6 implementation speeding up some more ;)
14:16 timotimo if brrt gets accepted for GSoC for the moarvm jit, that seems like a very real possibility in the near term
14:18 timotimo and rurban++ is giving parrot some love in the performance department
14:18 me5purnd rakudo runs on moarvm jvm and parrot now ? ... but not .NET
14:18 timotimo that's right
14:18 me5purnd and niecza:only run on .NET
14:19 timotimo yes, sadly niecza is falling behind a bit on spec compliance
14:19 me5purnd but higher level niecza <----> rakudo are simlar
14:19 timotimo niecza has really good performance characteristics, though
14:19 me5purnd ah ok
14:19 timotimo well, niecza has been built from the start for performance, rakudo has been developed while mostly ignoring performance
14:20 timotimo there's still lots of non-optimal things in rakudo; for example, compiling the core setting gives you a few hundred thousand copies of the string "OPER" or "dotty" :)
14:20 timotimo i tried to build an inlining solution for that, but it caused compilation failures instead of improvements :(
14:20 timotimo interning*
14:21 me5purnd hmm so both are at work improving ... and it's not like rakudo is going to use nieczca work to port itself to .NET and become the universal perl6
14:22 timotimo yes, niecza is not suited to become a "target" for rakudo
14:22 timotimo but at this point it would be "easy" to make a .net backend for rakudo
14:22 me5purnd :)
14:22 timotimo the backend is now very well separated from the frontend, so the backend-dependent bits are nicely compartmentalized
14:22 timotimo and you have lots of code you can look at to figure out what needs to be done
14:22 huf they only nabbed half of europe and half of asia
14:22 huf not nearly imperialistic :)
14:23 huf err.
14:23 timotimo i don't understand what you mean by that :|
14:23 huf wrong channel :)
14:23 timotimo that would explain it
14:23 timotimo was about to ask in what universe rakudo and niecza nabbed half of europe and asia
14:24 me5purnd that is good moar is better!! (oops meant to type more) why do people worry about there being too many perl6's anyway ?  ... in the furture the fact that it runs on different vms etc is going to be like the fact that perl5 runs on HPUX and NeXT ...
14:24 huf :)
14:25 timotimo people on the outside of the community seem to think we're fragmenting ourselves too much
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14:25 me5purnd oh .. but ... mabye they don't understand  VM's?
14:25 timotimo and i've seen the claim that we drop projects as soon as they are "not fun any more"
14:25 timotimo as in "parrot wasn't fun any more, so they started moarvm"
14:25 me5purnd oh
14:26 me5purnd well maybe vmkit.llvm.org is  -Ofun :-)
14:26 timotimo rurban is hopefully helping parrot catch up with moarvm's performance and multithreading capabilities
14:26 me5purnd wow
14:26 timotimo isn't llvm much too low-level for us?
14:26 me5purnd yeah
14:27 pmurias vmkit builds a vm on top of llvm
14:27 me5purnd for sure rurban would know :)
14:28 me5purnd vmkti now has a sort of way of making a home built jvm
14:28 raiph joined #perl6
14:28 timotimo like the avian vm? :)
14:29 [Coke] in an ideal world, we wouldn't have needed moarvm, yes. We sadly are not coding in an ideal world.
14:29 me5purnd sometimes I have re.pl and node.js open in terminals and I accidentally type perl into node ....
14:29 timotimo we couldn't possibly have known from the start that 6model would be a thing
14:29 timotimo i can understand why the parrot team wanted to realize the "one vm for all dynamic languages" thing
14:30 timotimo it's quite sad it led to parrot becoming somewhat unideal for Perl 6
14:31 Mouq joined #perl6
14:32 pmurias how many gsoc Perl 6 proposal do we have this year?
14:34 vendethiel joined #perl6
14:34 me5purnd maybe parrot will be ideal for something else and almost ideal for perl6 ... ... real life  parrots can talk any language without really deeply understanding it so ...
14:35 timotimo either that, or the analogy will break down ;)
14:35 timotimo i'm carefully optimistic.
14:35 me5purnd :)
14:36 me5purnd the main thing people forget about parrots ....
14:36 me5purnd they fly
14:36 pmurias parrot is ideal for writing programs in the pir assembly language
14:36 pmurias ;)
14:36 timotimo well ...
14:36 me5purnd yeah :)
14:39 * me5purnd tells parrot something in mix of javascript, perl5 and 2001 Space Odyssey Dave Dialect ...
14:39 me5purnd parrot flies off and comes back with a fish
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14:50 rurban anyone knows what's up with dalek? is gone for #parrot
14:51 rurban the problem with vmkit is that their GC is written in java
14:52 timotimo oh hey rurban :)
14:52 rurban and I didn't dig llvm C++ too much
14:52 rurban bacek likes it though
14:58 me5purnd rurban: vmkit is very early days so far I gues ... I thought there was a plan eventually have non java GC  ..one day ...
14:59 rurban dalek quit Mar 17 06:19:53
14:59 rurban central time
15:00 me5purnd anyway ... viva perl6 (and 5) and perlito :)
15:01 timotimo actually it's called "viv" without a :P
15:03 dalek joined #perl6
15:06 rurban and here he is, thanks
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15:14 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
15:15 nwc10 good *, Pm
15:15 moritz good am, pm
15:16 colomon o/
15:17 nwc10 pmichaud: how did the robot stuff go?
15:17 pmichaud My FLL team is attending the World Festival (championship) in St. Louis in April.
15:17 moritz congratulations!
15:18 pmichaud My FTC team made it as far as the South Super-Regionals (top 72 teams from 12 U.S. States) but didn't make it to the World Festival.  Still, we're pretty happy about it given that this was the FTC team's rookie season.
15:18 nwc10 and then? :-)
15:18 nwc10 "I've reached the top and had to stop and that's what's worrying me"? [except SpaceX is working on this]
15:18 pmichaud well, after the World Festival we start planning for next season.  Oh, and there's MoonBots over the summer.  :-)
15:19 nwc10 do MoonBots use a real Moon?
15:19 pmichaud made of LEGO bricks, yes.  :)
15:20 pmichaud the FTC team is WAAAY motivated to make it to the World Festival next year.  I've rarely seen such a motivated group of individuals.
15:21 timotimo hello pmichaud! :)
15:21 timotimo rurban: do you have something notable for me to point out on the daily p6weekly?
15:23 timotimo froggs isn't here yet, i had hoped to ask him for a detailed explanation of all the eleven status
15:23 timotimo but i think something big is coming up this week or the next one.
15:23 timotimo so that may be a better point to write that up
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15:28 rurban timotime: only that the new parrot release tomorrow will support now -O2 pbc compile-time optimizations.
15:28 rurban effects so far 3-5% perf improvements, not yet benched with rakudo
15:29 rurban And I'm settting up a big buildbot for most architectures: http://blogs.perl.org/users/rurban/2014/03/my-new-buildbot.html
15:32 timotimo okay, i mentioned that -O2 thing in last week's post already
15:32 rurban the buildbot is fine then: mingw64 and accepting outside bots is still tricky
15:33 timotimo i'll post that. thanks!
15:33 rurban mozilla and google have hundreds of bot slaves
15:33 BenGoldberg only hundreds? ;)
15:34 timotimo hundreds per architecture maybe ;)
15:34 rurban http://trac.buildbot.net/wiki/SuccessStories (700)
15:34 raiph timotimo: did you see the feedback I added to your draft of last week's post? (I think I added them after you had already published the final.)
15:35 timotimo ah, that was you!
15:35 timotimo there is no way to identify who wrote what sadly
15:36 timotimo i think i saw it, i'm not sure if i took any of your feedback into the final post, though
15:36 rurban http://anamariamoz.wordpress.com/2010/11/08/mozillas-build-system/
15:36 timotimo istr it was partially redundant with what others told m
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15:36 raiph i recall a couple nice things lizmat did and you didn't mention her at all
15:37 timotimo ah. that's not good at all!
15:37 timotimo this week i've seen lots and lots of spec commits from lizmat, though
15:37 timotimo so she'll be mentioned for sure this time
15:38 colomon lizmat++
15:42 raiph timotimo: are you checking the changelogs? (she had already edited the changelog so I was surprised you didn't mention her changes)
15:42 timotimo i didn't look at the changelog for that week :(
15:42 rurban timotimo: And I started working on the parrot jit, but it will need at least a month. not yet sure if I'll use the old (tested and ok) or a new dynasm jit (luajit).
15:43 timotimo i guess i'll post about that when there's something to see :)
15:44 JimmyZ rurban: I saw you reverted the old jit removing
15:46 rurban in rurban/jit: I need to bring in the perl5 Op library and the cgp runcore also. Esp. cgp will be quite fast than
15:46 japhb__ timotimo: You had some perl6-bench questions for me, I believe.  One about variants and one about components?
15:46 japhb__ Did you figure them out already?
15:46 rurban we saw 20-25% perf with cgp in older days
15:47 JimmyZ rurban: Did you see the gist I msged to you?
15:47 timotimo i did not figure it out yet
15:48 timotimo do you happen to know how best to make %*ENV on parrot work with qx?
15:48 japhb__ OK, what would you like to know?
15:48 timotimo list-checkouts gives the same commit id for all components because the GIT_DIR variable doesn't stick :(
15:48 rurban JimmyZ: no
15:48 JimmyZ rurban: https://gist.github.com/Whiteknight/1198521
15:48 timotimo what kind of thing do we expect to be passed to --variants?
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15:49 japhb__ timotimo: Really?  That's a regression.
15:49 timotimo yes, really :(
15:49 japhb__ timotimo: --list-variants will give you examples
15:49 timotimo could always call "env" instead of "git" directly
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15:49 japhb__ sorry, ./timeall --list-variants
15:49 timotimo ah
15:49 japhb__ That is a painful regression, actually, for anything using Perl 6 as glue.  :-(
15:50 timotimo yes!
15:50 rurban JimmyZ: thanks. looks good, besides some things already done
15:50 timotimo rurban: you're a parrot person; can you help me look into the qx + environment thing?
15:50 JimmyZ rurban: yeah
15:50 japhb__ rurban: What timotimo said.  :-)
15:52 rurban timotimo: ticket or link?
15:53 timotimo gimme a sec
15:53 timotimo https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/src/core/control.pm#L228
15:53 timotimo we don't pass the environment here; do you know how we could?
15:53 timotimo i don't think nqp::open with pipe mode will allow us to specify env vars
15:56 rurban parrot has the env pmc, which is similar
15:57 timotimo do you feel like implementing that? or at least point me at the right way to do it?
16:00 rurban I'm trying it out...
16:00 timotimo thank you very much!
16:00 timotimo all the rurban++ for that
16:01 rurban nqp::getattr(%*ENV, EnumMap, '$!storage'); should be doable with parrot
16:01 timotimo okay; and how do we make the environment effective?
16:01 rurban openpipe
16:01 timotimo oh, i didn't realize it has an argument for that
16:03 rurban not yet
16:04 rurban nqp::openpipe($cmd, nqp::cwd(), nqp::getenvhash(), '') is the idea
16:04 timotimo OK, do we have to map a new op for that?
16:05 timotimo well, since it's inside an #if parrot, we could use pir:: instead
16:05 rurban sub QX($cmd) {
16:05 rurban my Mu $pio := nqp::openpipe(nqp::unbox_s($cmd), nqp::cwd(), nqp::getenvhash(), '');
16:05 rurban fail "Unable to execute '$cmd'" unless $pio;
16:05 rurban my $result = nqp::p6box_s(nqp::readallfh($pio));
16:05 rurban nqp::closefh($pio);
16:05 rurban $result;
16:05 rurban }
16:05 rurban I'll map it
16:06 timotimo thank you kindly
16:10 timotimo huh, latest rakudo.parrot daily run had 142 failures :o
16:10 jnthn pmurias: ordat and ordfirst are just things ord desugars to.
16:10 timotimo ah, ok S05
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16:20 tadzik my moarvm-zavolaj test suite prints a lot of "/bin/sh: 1: PREFIX: not found". Just me?
16:23 rurban do you compile on windows with msys-mingw, strawberry-mingw or msvc?
16:24 tadzik nope, that's linux and gcc
16:24 timotimo tadzik: no, that's a problem with \$(PREFIX) ending up in the $*VM thingie
16:24 timotimo tadzik: feel free to investigate further :)
16:24 jnthn tadzik: Does it actually run the tests too?
16:25 jnthn tadzik: I've heard about that getting spat out as a warning.
16:25 tadzik jnthn: yes, they work fine
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17:02 masak Python 3.4 has landed! finally enums! :)
17:04 BenGoldberg Landed?  Had it previously been in outer space?
17:05 * masak .oO( released? was it previously kept in a cage? )
17:05 * masak .oO( shipped? was it previously waiting in the harbor? )
17:06 * masak .oO( cut? was it previously an angsty teenager? )
17:08 masak enums in 3.4 look much saner and less lame than last time I looked at them in Python: http://docs.python.org/3.4/library/enum.html
17:09 PerlJam yeah, but who uses python 3?!?  ;)
17:09 timotimo who uses Perl 6?!? ;)
17:10 rurban I still can only use Python 2.7
17:11 dalek star/tristar: ab2d701 | jnthn++ | tools/build/module-install.pl:
17:11 dalek star/tristar: Actually take/use the output extension.
17:11 dalek star/tristar: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/ab2d701649
17:12 timotimo huh, i wrote that exact code once before
17:12 timotimo must have gotten lost :(
17:12 jnthn aww
17:12 jnthn anyway, good news is module installing seems to work ;)
17:12 timotimo ayup :)
17:12 timotimo Mouq++
17:14 jnthn timotimo++ Mouq++
17:16 rurban parrot openpipe with env almost done (it's open "rp" with set'able anv)
17:16 rurban env
17:17 rurban g d
17:19 pmurias jnthn: nqp-js currently requires a nqp-p for cross compiling, what would be the best way to handle this?
17:19 pmurias jnthn: it currently depends on an installed nqp-p
17:20 jnthn pmurias: Dunno. I mean, you can say that if you want it to work out you must --backend=parrot,js
17:20 jnthn So it will do them in that order
17:20 jnthn That doesn't solve the "installed" bit
17:21 jnthn But if it's just needed for building, does that matter?
17:22 pmurias it complicates the build process a bit
17:22 pmurias for those who don't have an installed nqp-p
17:22 jnthn True
17:23 jnthn It's temporary though? The goal is to self-host eventually?
17:23 pmurias yes
17:23 pmurias it should bootstrap soonish
17:23 pmurias but I'm not sure how fast the bootstrap will be at first
17:25 * jnthn figures out why S06-macros/unqouting.t blows up
17:26 timotimo http://p6weekly.wordpress.com/?p=94&amp;shareadraft=53273025224a6 - rough (and late) first draft
17:26 jnthn But heading out for dinner now, so it'll have to wait :)
17:26 jnthn timotimo: ooh, I'll read before I go :)
17:26 timotimo (if you use the feedback form to send feedback my way, consider putting your name in the text somewhere, so i can ask questions)
17:26 masak jnthn: you can explain it to me over dinner :)
17:27 masak timotimo: s/dilligently/diligently/
17:28 jnthn masak: yeah...I think 'tis time?
17:28 masak timotimo: maybe link to 2048? :P
17:28 masak jnthn: yep.
17:28 jnthn ready in 2
17:28 masak jnthn: meed you down-in-l'-lobby
17:28 masak meet*
17:29 * masak .oO( ooh! maybe they have mead where we're going! )
17:29 masak &
17:31 * pmurias should start working on a 2048 nqp-js clone ;)
17:31 jnthn &
17:39 timotimo http://doge2048.com/ - fantastic
17:40 tadzik this one I actually enjoyed
17:42 vendethiel pmurias: that'd be cool to see !
17:43 rindolf Hi all. Happy Purim, everyone.
17:44 [Sno] joined #perl6
17:48 timotimo purism?
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18:12 rurban Purim: I believe he meant Bar Refaeli on Saturday in the bright yellow tiger suit
18:21 SamuraiJack joined #perl6
18:24 rurban rakudo fails on a lot of -Werror=missing-prototypes
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18:28 timotimo published
18:37 hoverboard joined #perl6
18:40 rurban timotimo: that would be the perl6 fix when parrot has openpipe-env merged https://gist.github.com/rurban/9605572
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18:50 timotimo that'll happen for tomorrow's release?
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18:56 rurban did we ever had a pir::die missing a signature? https://gist.github.com/rurban/9605884
18:58 timotimo pir::die("Unable to execute '$cmd'") unless $pipe;
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18:58 timotimo that would be the one?
18:58 rurban ah, yes
18:58 timotimo can easily be nqp::die
18:58 rurban just trying the new code :)
18:58 timotimo :)
18:59 rurban timotimo: we will not touch parrot, but I want to fix rakudo for tomorrows parrot update. nqp already fine
18:59 timotimo i thought parrot needs openpipe-env to be merged?
19:02 rurban we will do that for the next release. no hurry
19:02 rurban one by one
19:02 timotimo that's the release in ~30 days?
19:02 rurban yes
19:02 timotimo aaw
19:03 timotimo i wish i had asked you for a fix yesterday or something
19:03 rurban I'm just testing that in a branch to get earlier feedback for our parrot merge
19:03 rurban last week would have been better. we froze saturday
19:03 timotimo ah
19:03 timotimo i didn't know about it at that time
19:03 timotimo we ought to introduce spectests that cover that particular functionality
19:03 timotimo it really ought not regress again
19:04 rurban no prob. do you need QX with env already?
19:04 timotimo Perl::Bench has a subcommand that requires it, but qx is very useful for lots of glue-ish things you could use Perl 6 for
19:04 timotimo (or: could *not* use Perl 6 for at the moment)
19:04 rurban I rather want to test if parrot -O2 is now stable enough.
19:04 rurban I see
19:05 rurban well, we'll need about a week to merge the openpipe-env branch
19:05 timotimo that's mostly "grace time" right?
19:05 timotimo i dare not ask you to throw out your release process for my little issue
19:05 rurban yes, request for comments. a new API. maybe we should it different
19:07 timotimo can we get a warning in place that'll try to figure out if someone modified %*ENV before calling qx?
19:07 timotimo hmm. if %*ENV !eqv CHECK %*ENV perhaps?
19:12 timotimo p: %*ENV<GIT_DIR> = "/home/foo"; say "test"; if %*ENV !eqv CHECK %*ENV { say %*ENV.kv (^) CHECK set %*ENV.kv }
19:12 camelia rakudo-parrot a24091: OUTPUT«test␤»
19:13 timotimo p: %*ENV<GIT_DIR> = "/home/foo"; say %*ENV.keys; say (BEGIN %*ENV).keys
19:13 camelia rakudo-parrot a24091: OUTPUT«XDG_SESSION_ID TERM SHELL XDG_SESSION_COOKIE SSH_CLIENT SSH_TTY USER LS_COLORS SSH_AUTH_SOCK TMUX PATH MAIL PWD LANG NODE_PATH TMUX_PANE SHLVL HOME LANGUAGE LOGNAME SSH_CONNECTION LC_CTYPE LESSOPEN XDG_RUNTIME_DIR LESSCLOSE _ GIT_DIR␤XDG_SESSION_ID TER…»
19:13 timotimo p: %*ENV<GIT_DIR> = "/home/foo"; say %*ENV<GIT_DIR>:exists; say (BEGIN %*ENV.copy)<GIT_DIR>:exists
19:13 camelia rakudo-parrot a24091: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤No such method 'copy' for invocant of type 'Hash'␤»
19:13 timotimo p: %*ENV<GIT_DIR> = "/home/foo"; say %*ENV<GIT_DIR>:exists; say (BEGIN %*ENV.clone)<GIT_DIR>:exists
19:13 camelia rakudo-parrot a24091: OUTPUT«True␤True␤»
19:13 timotimo hm.
19:14 timotimo p: %*ENV<GIT_DIR> = "/home/foo"; say %*ENV.keys; say (BEGIN %*ENV.keys)
19:14 camelia rakudo-parrot a24091: OUTPUT«XDG_SESSION_ID TERM SHELL XDG_SESSION_COOKIE SSH_CLIENT SSH_TTY USER LS_COLORS SSH_AUTH_SOCK TMUX PATH MAIL PWD LANG NODE_PATH TMUX_PANE SHLVL HOME LANGUAGE LOGNAME SSH_CONNECTION LC_CTYPE LESSOPEN XDG_RUNTIME_DIR LESSCLOSE _ GIT_DIR␤XDG_SESSION_ID TER…»
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19:15 timotimo p: %*ENV<GIT_DIR> = "/home/foo"; say "GIT_DIR" ~~ %*ENV.keys; say "GIT_DIR" ~~ (BEGIN %*ENV.keys)
19:15 camelia rakudo-parrot a24091: OUTPUT«False␤False␤»
19:15 timotimo oh?
19:15 timotimo p: say "foo" ~~ <foo bar baz>
19:15 camelia rakudo-parrot a24091: OUTPUT«False␤»
19:15 timotimo p: %*ENV<GIT_DIR> = "/home/foo"; say "GIT_DIR" (elem) %*ENV.keys; say "GIT_DIR" (elem) (BEGIN %*ENV.keys)
19:15 camelia rakudo-parrot a24091: OUTPUT«True␤False␤»
19:16 timotimo that'll only catch removing and adding keys, though
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19:34 retupmoca I think I found another moar nativecall bug: https://gist.github.com/retupmoca/9606605
19:41 japhb__ timotimo: Why did the week # in the summary title jump from 10 to 12?  Which week had the off-by-1 error?
19:42 timotimo oh, oops?
19:43 lizmat joined #perl6
19:43 * lizmat is home
19:50 [Coke] hio, lizmat!
19:51 lizmat [Coke] o/
19:51 timotimo hi lizmat
19:51 lizmat timotimo o/
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19:51 lizmat trying to slow down from a 7 hour drive
19:52 nwc10 use more 'whisky' ?
19:52 lizmat hehe... no
19:52 lizmat use more 'chartreuse'
19:52 lizmat we also visited the Chartreuse distilleries in Voiron
19:52 lizmat and ransacked the shop  :-)
19:54 nwc10 poor shop
19:55 lizmat eh... they were quite happy as we also paid them for items ransacked :-)
19:55 nwc10 mmm, you need to take lessons from the Danish, etc, on how ransacking is supposed to work :-)
19:56 Mouq joined #perl6
19:56 lizmat perhaps  :-)
19:58 nwc10 although they didn't have extradition treaties and Interpol back then, so it might not work as well these days.
20:00 timotimo having "no" as a "anti-use" is kind of weird
20:00 timotimo it's easy to understand when it's at the beginning of a file
20:00 timotimo but right in the middle
20:01 timotimo no llama 'noooooooo!'
20:04 geekosaur no sanity 'here';
20:05 BenGoldberg no common::sense
20:05 lizmat no use
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20:10 lizmat [Coke]: re http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-03-17#i_8448294 , I've discussed that with Tim Bunce yesterday during the QA hackathon
20:10 lizmat jave2perl predates rakudo running on the JVM
20:11 lizmat in his opinion, someone with a little Java knowledge and Perl6 knowledge
20:11 lizmat *should* be able to make that work in ~ a day
20:11 lizmat again, *AND* have it also fill in the necessary NativeCall code in the generated Perl 6 code
20:12 rurban Isn't today the crazy irish day?
20:12 lizmat so that you would only need to point this script at a jar, and have it write the Perl 6 interface (when running on the JVM) for you
20:12 lizmat aka: instant access from Perl6 to all Java libraries (in theory)
20:12 ajr joined #perl6
20:13 lizmat alas, I'm not the person to do this   :-(
20:13 lizmat not without severe handholding, I'm afraid
20:16 [Coke] ok. if there's still a need, I can poke at this weekend, perhaps.
20:17 [Coke] work is still exploding (it's been six months. less exploding would be good)
20:24 * lizmat hopes the dust will settle for [Coke] :-)
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20:40 lizmat timotimo++ for keeping up weekly changes reports
20:43 virtualsue joined #perl6
20:56 * lizmat gets some sleep&
21:01 timotimo i try my best :P
21:04 [Coke] in good/bad news, this project's deadline has just been pushed out another week.
21:05 timotimo \o/
21:06 [Coke] ... and, oh look, that means we can do more tickets. GAH
21:06 timotimo hooray
21:06 timotimo >_>
21:07 ashleydev [Coke]: apropos?: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7415916
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21:23 [Coke] ashleydev: nah.
21:23 [Coke] but I've worked there, too. :)
21:30 Mouq joined #perl6
21:32 Mouq o/
21:32 yoleaux 08:07Z <moritz> Mouq: I've given you a commit bit for rakudo/star
21:33 Mouq \o/ Thank you moritz++ :)
21:55 simula67 lizmat: Regarding java2perl6, did you mean Java interfaces will be written to Perl 6 roles ?
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23:38 colomon Just successfully processed two 4 MB JSON files using Rakudo-moar and JSON::Tiny.  Took 15.75 minutes, alas.
23:40 hoverboard joined #perl6
23:48 colomon though that is on my Mac rather than my fast Linux box

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