Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-04-04

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:59 flussence I got a bit annoyed by the startup time of bin/perl6 (which turned out to be a copy of perl6-j), and I'm too lazy to type out perl6-{m,p} every time, so I wrote a replacement for it: https://gist.github.com/flussence/9966581
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02:48 xiaomiao flussence: interesting hack. Not sure if that makes sense in general - makes reproducing things potentially confusing
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05:40 moritz [Coke]: I'm installing libpcre3-dev on host07; no idea if that has UTF-8 support
05:40 yoleaux 3 Apr 2014 21:29Z <[Coke]> moritz: if we can get a recent pcre on host07 with UTF support to try to fix Pugs. Thanks!
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07:13 sergot Hey!
07:13 masak ohayo
07:13 sergot Please help me :)
07:13 sergot http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2014-04-03#i_8534489
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07:18 sergot got 3 answers so far :)
07:20 moritz sergot: my answer would be the same as FROGGS++'s, except that I'd list "mature concurrency support" as a plus for the JVM
07:20 moritz as well as "interop with java"
07:20 sergot Ok, thanks moritz++
07:20 sergot :)
07:24 arnsholt flussence: The perl6 script will be linked to whatever backend you listed first in --backends
07:25 arnsholt So if you prefer Parrot or Moar, just put one of those first
07:27 sergot r: multi sub infix:<->(Str $a, Str $b) { return $a.split($b).join; }; say "abcdbe" - "b";
07:27 camelia rakudo-parrot 972ef0, rakudo-jvm 972ef0, rakudo-moar 972ef0: OUTPUT«acde␤»
07:28 sergot What do you think about such a built-in sub?
07:28 sergot r: multi sub infix:<->(Str $a, Str $b) { return $a.split($b).join; }; say "abcdbe" - "b" - "a";
07:28 camelia rakudo-parrot 972ef0, rakudo-jvm 972ef0, rakudo-moar 972ef0: OUTPUT«cde␤»
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07:33 masak sergot: nice set of questions. I will try to fill it in later :)
07:33 masak &
07:40 sergot masak++: thanks in advance :)
07:41 Woodi hallo everyone
07:41 sergot hi Woodi
07:42 Woodi sergot: poll is via irc ? :)
07:43 Woodi ah, damn
07:43 Woodi gist have some functionality I was not aware off...
07:45 sergot Woodi: you can comment or fork it or just write here :)
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07:46 Woodi just unforgotting my github pass. they tell me my password is "commonly guessed by hackers"...
07:48 xiaomiao o_O
07:48 Woodi if I brain-random choose subsets of pwgen generated passwords I make better pass or worse ? :)
07:52 Woodi hmm, I see Java is now "run everywhere" ;)
07:55 xiaomiao run faster!
07:55 xiaomiao run away!!1
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08:50 * grondilu just learnt that microsoft has released C# source code:  http://roslyn.codeplex.com/
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08:52 grondilu (the compiler I mean)
09:18 Woodi sergot: looks I messed some buttons so  https://gist.github.com/slunski/9970983  answers are
09:26 Woodi grondilu: Netscape and Sun opened some code just before going down...
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09:27 Woodi but MS case is probably bit different, they plan for mobile market domination. or everywere demination with "fuller" versions of products...
09:28 Woodi would be better companies just develop open source products constantly...
09:28 xiaomiao Woodi: "but how can you profit"
09:29 Woodi by selling hardware of course :)
09:31 xiaomiao hnurgh.
09:33 Woodi by selling _individual_ support maybe ? anyway, by doing hard things and not plain, easy and overpriced...
09:34 xiaomiao by building good products?
09:35 xiaomiao man, I amuse myself too easily
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09:52 grondilu Woodi: fwiw, I was mentioning this because I wondered if that could be good news for Perl 6, as maybe some new ideas could be stolen for rakudo.
09:54 timotimo o/
09:54 Woodi hej
09:55 timotimo i'd love to make a living doing support for companies to use Perl 6 and use "down time" for development :)
09:57 Woodi what rosylyn exactly is ? it is C# 4.0 compiler or something other ?
09:58 Woodi btw. are "assembiles" code compiled for native machine executable packs ?
09:59 timotimo i think assemblies is their name for any packaged bytecode and/or native code, but i'm not sure
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10:04 masak assemblies are a kind of unit of deployment, IIUC.
10:05 timotimo heyo masak
10:05 timotimo how's t4 coming along btw? :)
10:06 masak timotimo: my vacation starts today. it's entirely possible that during it, I'll be $dayjob-detoxed enough to turn to t4.
10:06 masak the coming ten days will tell :)
10:09 timotimo ooh
10:09 timotimo i wish you a pleasant vacation, whether or not you end up doing t4 :)
10:14 timotimo now i'm building nqp-moarvm with latest master and then with jnthn-lex-loc to run the benchmarks
10:14 timotimo and, i suppose, i could run them again with moarvm/spesh on top of that
10:14 timotimo since they would hopefully synergize well
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10:15 * grondilu wonders wth is wrong with rosettacode.  It's very rarely online :/
10:15 timotimo #rosettacode is on this network :)
10:15 * grondilu goes there
10:31 masak sergot: https://gist.github.com/ser​got/9951466#comment-1205398
10:36 sergot masak: thank you! :)
10:36 sergot Woodi++: thank you too :)
10:38 timotimo stay tuna'd for benchmarks in about half an hour
10:39 timotimo actually, i could also run master-spesh today
10:39 timotimo just to see how spesh+l2l would be more than the sum of its parts
10:42 sergot I've just updated the gist - added something to 3rd question. Will be great if you update your answers - but it is not necessary if you don't have enough time.
10:44 timotimo that's question 2 :)
10:44 sergot Oh, right, I'm sorry, 2nd :)
10:45 sergot thanks timotimo
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10:56 timotimo i'm a dummy sometimes :)
10:56 timotimo just because i named the folder something doesn't mean git automagically read my mind as to what branch to check out
10:57 timotimo and i was wondering why lex-loc + spesh was slower than just lex-loc
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11:09 timotimo interesting results.
11:11 timotimo http://t.h8.lv/p6bench/2014-04-03-spesh.html - yesterday's rakudo master vs spesh
11:12 timotimo http://t.h8.lv/p6bench/201​4-04-04-lexloc-spesh.html - today's nqp-master vs nqp-lexloc X moar-master vs moar-spesh
11:13 timotimo it's interesting that ll+spesh seems to actually be slower than ll-only for forest-fire
11:13 masak I get 9 failig spectests on an up-to-date Rakudo-Moar.
11:14 masak failing*
11:14 timotimo that seems about right
11:17 masak that seems about 9 steps from right. :)
11:18 timotimo well, it seems like you haven't made it worse somehow in your local setup s'all
11:20 timotimo jnthn: does it discourage you that the work of several weeks (in the form of spesh) seems to give almost no benefit and the work of one evening (in the form of lex-loc) gives a 50% performance boost in the microbenchmark that it most directly impacts? :P
11:20 LLamaRider timotimo: it would be nice to also have the "target" you're aiming for in those plots. E.g. the P5 runtime
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11:57 daxim_ perl6: '|'.quotemeta.say
11:57 camelia rakudo-parrot 972ef0, rakudo-jvm 972ef0, rakudo-moar 972ef0: OUTPUT«No such method 'quotemeta' for invocant of type 'Str'␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
11:57 camelia ..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method quotemeta in type Str␤  at /tmp/tmpfile line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4595 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4596 (module-CORE @ 576) …»
12:12 lizmat daxim_: everything non alphanumeric is meta in Perl 6, afaik
12:14 lizmat there is one specced in S32/Str:259, but there's also the question whether it is needed
12:15 [Coke] sergot: I would agree with moritz++'s modifications to FROGG++'s response.
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12:35 sergot [Coke]++: thanks! :)
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12:37 [Coke] sergot: I am also interested in rakudo on jvm because it will give the opportunity (eventually) to deploy perl 6 code in an J2EE-only environment.
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12:37 [Coke] *a
12:39 daxim_ it is needed for porting code, p5 has quotemeta and \Q, python has re.escape
12:40 daxim_ writing the whole time text.replace() like in ecmascript is unattractive
12:42 lizmat daxim_: so, for my understanding, do you need P5 or P6 semantics in .quotemeta?
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12:42 lizmat in other words a .p5quotemeta or .quotemeta
12:42 moritz note that strings don't interpolate as regexes into regexes, but as literals
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12:43 moritz lizmat: I don't think there's much difference; p5 quotemeta escapes everything except word characters and digits
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13:18 * lizmat is almost ready to unleash her new winner {} implementation on the world
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13:22 PerlJam lizmat: take the leash off!  Let it run wild!  :)
13:23 dalek rakudo/nom: 6768b72 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/asyncops.pm:
13:23 dalek rakudo/nom: Re-implement WINNER, support "done @promises"
13:23 dalek rakudo/nom:
13:23 dalek rakudo/nom: Much of the logic existed twice in the sub, this has now been simplified.  Also,
13:23 dalek rakudo/nom: any parameter sanity tests are now performed *before* looking for a Promise/Channel
13:23 dalek rakudo/nom: so that problems in parameters do not stay hidden if they just did not happen to hit
13:23 dalek rakudo/nom: that case.
13:23 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6768b72701
13:23 dalek rakudo/nom: e09c87d | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Supply.pm:
13:23 dalek rakudo/nom: Simplify Supply.list, like Channel.list now
13:23 dalek rakudo/nom:
13:23 dalek rakudo/nom: This seems now possible after the WINNER refactor
13:23 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e09c87d1d9
13:26 timotimo LLamaRider: f5 to see p5 as well
13:27 timotimo lizmat: thanks for improving WINNER
13:27 timotimo i'm amazed i still have commit access to rakudo and nqp :P
13:28 lizmat timotimo++ for the initial implementation
13:28 timotimo you have pity on me, how nice ;))
13:28 lizmat I couldn't have refactored it without it, nor written it from scratch as easily
13:31 PerlJam timotimo++ lizmat++
13:32 * PerlJam builds a new rakudo
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13:46 LLamaRider timotimo++ awesome, thanks for adding P5 to that! :)
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13:49 LLamaRider P5 is quite respectable in the benchmark in comparison, some way to go still
13:49 LLamaRider but definitely great visuals
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14:02 hoelzro morning #perl6!
14:02 PerlJam gutentag hoelzro
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14:05 timotimo LLamaRider: except almost all benchmarks are very poor for comparison's sake
14:08 LLamaRider how come?
14:15 dalek rakudo/nom: a544f29 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/asyncops.pm:
14:15 dalek rakudo/nom: Oops, $:k should contain ordinal, not promise
14:15 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a544f2901f
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14:21 timotimo LLamaRider: if you look at japhb/perl6-bench on github, you'll see that they really are just microbenchmarks
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14:24 timotimo in fact, they are in the microbenchmarks.pm (or .json?) file
14:24 timotimo the big majority of them
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14:37 LLamaRider timotimo: I see. But they are still quite valuable to test the core of the language, so that's fine
14:37 LLamaRider I would even propose adding the super-slow example I found yesterday
14:38 LLamaRider r: (^10000).pick(*).sort;
14:38 LLamaRider P5 gets that done in 0.02 seconds
14:38 camelia rakudo-parrot 972ef0, rakudo-jvm 972ef0, rakudo-moar 972ef0: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
14:38 lizmat r: ^10000.sort
14:39 camelia rakudo-jvm e09c87: OUTPUT«Error while reading '/home/p6eval_eval/p6eval-token': Permission denied at /home/p6eval/jvm-rakudo/eval-client.pl line 10.␤»
14:39 camelia ..rakudo-parrot e09c87, rakudo-moar e09c87: ( no output )
14:39 lizmat r: ^10000.list.sort
14:39 camelia rakudo-jvm e09c87: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
14:39 camelia ..rakudo-parrot e09c87, rakudo-moar e09c87: ( no output )
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14:53 timotimo LLamaRider: i would merge a pull request for you :)
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14:55 moritz eeks, somebody broke rakudo-j again on camelia
14:56 timotimo if it stays that way until monday, i'll put simplifying the sort function into the LHF of the p6weekly
14:57 moritz j: say 1
14:57 camelia rakudo-jvm e09c87: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
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15:08 timotimo r: my $test; for ^5 -> $OUTER::test { say $test }; say $test;
15:08 camelia rakudo-parrot e09c87, rakudo-jvm e09c87, rakudo-moar e09c87: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Malformed parameterâ�¤at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤------> [32mmy $test; for ^5 -> $OUTER:[33mâ��[31m:test { say $test }; say $test;[0mâ�¤    expecting …»
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15:46 jeffreykegler I wonder if someone on the list could help me -- recently there circulated what was (I thought) an excellent blog post (web page?) circulated on C language gotchas for those not used to programming at the von Neumann level: having to do your own memory allocation; track your own array bounds; make sure string lengths are correct; etc., etc.  Does anyone remember where that was?
15:51 moritz jeffreykegler: I've read several such guides, mostly links from reddit.com/r/programming
15:52 moritz jeffreykegler: there are several big institutions / companies that publish C coding guides with hints like the ones you mentioned
15:52 timotimo reddit annoys me. once you found something interesting, it's basically gone forever
15:52 timotimo unless you comment
15:54 timotimo or use internet 1.0 style bookmarks
15:54 jeffreykegler moritz: this may have been a reddit thing.  Any suggestions for how/where I might search?
15:54 timotimo forget it, having something on reddit actually removes it from all search engines and indices
15:54 timotimo basically the text might as well never have existed
15:55 jeffreykegler timotimo: I know of many alternatives, but the particular one I have in mind was especially good, and I'd like to find it again ...
15:55 moritz jeffreykegler: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/478​0873/secure-c-coding-practices#4781724
15:55 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publi​c/Bug/Display.html?id=4781724
15:55 jeffreykegler unfortunately my memory these days is as much of a sieve as reddit appears to be
15:56 moritz jeffreykegler: http://www.reddit.com/r/programmin​g/search?q=coding+c&amp;restrict_s​r=on&amp;sort=relevance&amp;t=all
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16:01 jeffreykegler1 This was not security-focused -- it was aimed at someone who could reasonably call himself a programming expert, but was not fully aware of the pitfalls of programming down to the metal.
16:01 * jeffreykegler1 has a flaky internet connection and is apologetic about popping in and out
16:03 geekosaur find a friendly vps provider and set up a znc. does wonders for me
16:04 timotimo a bnc?
16:04 timotimo weechat in a screen session works very well
16:04 timotimo i imagine a tmux session would be even nicer
16:05 btyler jeffreykegler: was it "ctraps": http://www.literateprogramming.com/ctraps.pdf ?
16:06 jeffreykegler1 btyler: another excellent resource, but not the specific one.
16:06 jeffreykegler1 Anyway, I didn't give you guys much to go on,
16:07 jeffreykegler1 and was hoping to get lucky anyway, so I perhaps should accept that the link has moved on into an alternative universe.
16:11 jeffreykegler1 I did look follow up on all the links, and just didn't find it.  Thanks for trying!!
16:14 segomos irssi+screen wins
16:16 timotimo screen is so last century
16:16 timotimo and weechat has convinced me 100% that it's more awesome than irssi :P
16:17 Woodi I tried two timesto use tmux but screen keybinds are perfect :)
16:21 dalek rakudo-star-daily: f45aea1 | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
16:21 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
16:21 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/f45aea1d0b
16:21 Woodi btw. for me we are still at Web 1.xx until it is fully Semantic or with _data_ separated from implementation :) scrapping included, etc...
16:26 moritz Woodi: then you might be interested in a project I'm pondering
16:26 moritz Woodi: basically twitter, but for JSON messages, not just text
16:27 moritz (and then format strings for human readable representations, possibly multi-lingual)
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17:44 FOSScookie I remember there being a link to a page that had the current state of rakudo  and niecza development status. I cannot find it in the pidgin logs can you give me that link again?
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17:47 timotimo is that perl6.org/compilers/features or what's it?
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17:48 FOSScookie Yes, that is it. Thanks :)
17:48 dalek roast: 6a78aa6 | (David Warring david.warring@gmail.com)++ | integration/advent2013-day18.t:
17:48 dalek roast: completing 2013 advent day 18
17:48 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/6a78aa6a0e
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18:11 jnthn o/ from a train
18:11 FROGGS[mobile] o/ from a hotel
18:12 nwc10 \o from a balcony
18:12 timotimo ô
18:12 nwc10 (but I'm back in Vienna, after a breif dalliance in the UK (sort of), care of a roaming 3G)
18:14 grondilu r: say (rand xx 10)[0, 2 ... *] # is it ok to subscript a finite array with an infinite list of indexes?
18:14 camelia rakudo-moar a544f2: OUTPUT«0.690761385209 0.945037371008574 0.785832695826018 0.738640810376016 0.305420903360923␤»
18:14 camelia ..rakudo-jvm a544f2: OUTPUT«0.6956918283244483 0.6913481913265194 0.5712483954682283 0.5415502470378891 0.7891892362012431␤»
18:14 camelia ..rakudo-parrot a544f2: OUTPUT«0.211881146623881 0.0478726747414342 0.384264605105258 0.578718755202395 0.247960562410981␤»
18:15 * grondilu wondered this as he was looking at http://rosettacode.org/wiki/F​ast_Fourier_transform#Perl_6
18:15 jnthn grondilu: Apparently :P
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18:21 nwc10 FROGGS[mobile]: a hotel in Germany? Or further afield?
18:22 * [Coke] hopes to get some spare time back after $dayjob project goes live this weekend. fingers crossed.
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18:28 jnthn timotimo: spesh is a O(months) project building something that will enable/do dozens of different opts, lex2loc is a O(days) single opt. :)
18:29 * grondilu rewrote FFT on RC:  http://rosettacode.org/wiki/F​ast_Fourier_transform#Perl_6
18:30 grondilu (no loop :-)
18:30 [Coke] http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Fast_Furious#six
18:33 PerlJam grondilu: nice.
18:34 PerlJam (of course, I don't know what it looked like before, but that particular implementation is very concise and understandable)
18:38 grondilu yeah it's going to be hard to make it simpler
18:38 PerlJam .oO( Just use the built-in fft() routine!  ;)
18:40 grondilu though maybe a geometric sequence could be written 1, [\*] $r xx *
18:40 timotimo it seems like i didn't write it on the channel >_>
18:40 timotimo wait, i can find out!
18:41 timotimo 1bc is on moarvm/master
18:41 timotimo so blue is spesh
18:41 timotimo hold on
18:41 timotimo both are on master
18:41 timotimo wat.
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18:41 timotimo looks like i dun goofed up :)
18:41 timotimo did you see i was unable to build rakudo on top of lex-loc?
18:42 jnthn No
18:42 jnthn It's odd 'cus I built it just fine.
18:42 * grondilu keeps thinking the degenerate case of [*] should be 1
18:42 [Coke] m: say [\*]
18:42 camelia rakudo-moar a544f2: OUTPUT«␤»
18:42 [Coke] m: say [*]
18:42 camelia rakudo-moar a544f2: OUTPUT«1␤»
18:42 timotimo but the output of triangle reduce is a list
18:42 [Coke] m: say [\+]
18:42 camelia rakudo-moar a544f2: OUTPUT«␤»
18:43 timotimo the empty list is just fine in my opinion
18:43 timotimo m: say [\*] 1
18:43 camelia rakudo-moar a544f2: OUTPUT«1␤»
18:43 timotimo m: say [\*] 1, 2
18:43 [Coke] timotimo++
18:43 camelia rakudo-moar a544f2: OUTPUT«1 2␤»
18:43 timotimo m: say [\*] 1, 2, 3
18:43 camelia rakudo-moar a544f2: OUTPUT«1 2 6␤»
18:43 grondilu sorry, I meant the first term of [\*] should always be 1
18:43 timotimo oh?
18:43 jnthn timotimo: How did it fail?
18:43 timotimo so you're saying triangle reduce should always include one invocation of the operator with no arguments?
18:43 grondilu m: say [\*] 2 xx *
18:44 grondilu oops
18:44 grondilu m: say [\*] 2 xx 5
18:44 camelia rakudo-moar a544f2: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
18:44 camelia rakudo-moar a544f2: OUTPUT«2 4 8 16 32␤»
18:44 grondilu well, maybe that's a bit too much to ask.
18:45 timotimo m: say &[*](), [\*] 2 xx 5
18:45 camelia rakudo-moar a544f2: OUTPUT«12 4 8 16 32␤»
18:45 timotimo oops :)
18:45 timotimo m: say (&[*](), [\*] 2 xx 5)
18:45 camelia rakudo-moar a544f2: OUTPUT«1 2 4 8 16 32␤»
18:46 timotimo m: sub fixed_tri_red(&operator, @list) { &operator(), [\&operator] @list }; fixed_tri_red(&[*], (1, 2, 3, 4, 5));
18:46 camelia rakudo-moar a544f2: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/M8Izodv1Afâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/M8Izodv1Af:1â�¤------> [32mtor, @list) { &operator(), [\&operator] [33mâ��[31m@list }; fixed_tri_red(&[*], (1, 2, 3, 4[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤    â€¦Â»
18:46 timotimo m: sub fixed_tri_red(&operator, @list) { &operator(), [\&operator] |@list }; fixed_tri_red(&[*], (1, 2, 3, 4, 5));
18:46 camelia rakudo-moar a544f2: ( no output )
18:46 timotimo m: sub fixed_tri_red(&operator, @list) { &operator(), [\&operator] |@list }; say fixed_tri_red(&[*], (1, 2, 3, 4, 5));
18:46 camelia rakudo-moar a544f2: OUTPUT«1 any(sub+{<anon>}+{precedence} infix:<*>(Any $a?, Any $b?) { ... }, 1 2 3 4 5)␤»
18:46 grondilu more generally, I was thinking the first term of a triangular reduce metaoperation should always be the degenerate case of the applied operator.
18:46 timotimo what the f? :)
18:47 timotimo we should introduce a full triangle reduce metaoperator: [\\*]
18:49 grondilu so that arithmetic and geometric progressions could be written naturally [\+] $_ xx * and [\*] $_ xx *  starting respectively with 0 and 1 (the two degenerate cases of [+] and [*]
18:49 grondilu )
18:49 timotimo rectangle reduce? [|*]
18:50 grondilu and factorial could be written  [\*] 1 .. *    (? not sure about thi one though)
18:50 * grondilu thinks
18:50 dalek rakudo/nom: 3325bb1 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/asyncops.pm:
18:50 dalek rakudo/nom: Test for Promise/Channel on first one as well
18:50 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3325bb1d82
18:50 grondilu yes, factorial would then be [\*] 1 .. *
18:51 jnthn timotimo: It builds fine here.
18:52 jnthn timotimo: Just tried it again from scratch
18:52 grondilu timotimo: I think it must still look triangular, but maybe with a ° to mean that we want the degenerate case as well.  So [°\*]
18:52 grondilu or [.\*]
18:55 grondilu though to be fair I do remember TimToady has aready stated that it would be more difficult to teach, so I won't insist.  It's just that this FFT code made me think about it and it keeps nagging me a little bit.
18:57 jnthn timotimo: It's hard to infer much from http://t.h8.lv/p6bench/2014-04-03-spesh.html at present.
18:57 jnthn timotimo: I suspect most of the differences are noise-ish.
19:00 Araq joined #perl6
19:01 nwc10 I have uploaded a picture of the view from here: https://www.flickr.com/photo​s/34063820@N00/13628965234/
19:01 nwc10 I would add notes
19:01 nwc10 but it seems that flickr-- has removed tha useful feature.
19:01 Rotwang joined #perl6
19:02 nwc10 the bright circle just to the right of the tree is the Riesenrad
19:02 jnthn nwc10: ooh, nice :)
19:02 nwc10 everything else is a bit to hard to describe easily.
19:02 timotimo gotta run for now
19:02 xenoterracide joined #perl6
19:02 nwc10 if I had notes I could stick one on where the airport control tower is.
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19:13 dalek rakudo/nom: 8908784 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/asyncops.pm:
19:13 dalek rakudo/nom: Some more cleanup in WINNER
19:13 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8908784333
19:19 [Coke] WINNER WINNER
19:20 dalek perl6-roast-data: ad1cb0c | coke++ | / (6 files):
19:20 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
19:20 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/ad1cb0cec1
19:21 moritz http://h3.gd/ctrace/
19:21 lizmat [Coke]: well, actually I'm working on .winners
19:21 lizmat $ perl6 -e 'say (^10).pick(*).map( { start { .sleep; $_ } } ).winners'
19:21 lizmat 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
19:22 lizmat given a list of Promises / Channels, it returns a lazy list with the values as they come in
19:22 moritz lizmat++
19:22 moritz is that -j or -m?
19:23 lizmat eh, it's built on winner {}, so should work on both
19:23 lizmat I've only tested -m
19:23 timotimo jnthn, did you look at the nqp benches?
19:23 timotimo or only at the rakudo ones?
19:23 lizmat now my plan was to allow for an optional code block to be passed to .winners
19:24 [Coke] Found out they opened a "Brits R Us" about 5m from my $dayjob. will be swinging by later to see if I can find prawn crisps. :)
19:24 lizmat similar to the winner {} syntax
19:24 lizmat but alas, this fails with an error I don't quite get
19:25 lizmat $ perl6 -e 'say (^10).pick(*).map( { start { .sleep; $_ } } ).winners: { $:v.say }'
19:25 lizmat Required named parameter 'k' not passed
19:25 jnthn timotimo: Looked at both. The NQP ones didn't show a great deal
19:25 jnthn timotimo: I mean, I mostly pay attention to the right hand side of them since that's where you see the trend
19:26 timotimo mhm
19:26 timotimo the native 2d loop one was really happy
19:26 jnthn yeah, it was
19:26 jnthn Beat Perl 5.
19:26 lizmat ah, duh, thank you all for being a wall  :-)
19:27 timotimo liz, it used only v?
19:28 jnthn lizmat: It's TimToady immitation day, didn't y'know? :P
19:31 treehug8_ joined #perl6
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19:34 jnthn lizmat: Curius, are you developing the WINNER stuff on j or m?
19:35 lizmat on ,
19:35 lizmat on m
19:35 lizmat rather  :-)
19:36 lizmat jnthn: is that important at this level ?  it shouldn't, should it ?
19:37 jnthn lizmat: In terms of "will it work", shouldn't matter.
19:37 jnthn lizmat: But folks using the conc stuff a bit on Moar matters to me in so far as it helps me get an idea of its stability, weak points, etc.
19:38 lizmat the only odd thing I found so far, is interaction with gather / take
19:38 jnthn Ah
19:38 jnthn segv? )
19:38 lizmat not what I expected... but I abandoned that approach in favour of map {}
19:40 dalek nqp/execname: 1454654 | (Tobias Leich)++ | tools/build/Makefile-Moar.in:
19:40 dalek nqp/execname: call the gen-runner provided my moar
19:40 dalek nqp/execname: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/1454654388
19:40 jnthn detrain, bbiab
19:41 dalek nqp/execname: 26686a4 | (Tobias Leich)++ | .gitignore:
19:41 dalek nqp/execname: ignore nqp-m.c
19:41 dalek nqp/execname: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/26686a44bd
19:45 denis__ joined #perl6
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19:55 moritz FROGGS: I don't know what you're doing right now, but the exec name finding could happen in the shell script wrapper
19:55 moritz currently perl6-m is a wrapper that calls moar ... perl6.moarvm "$@"
19:56 moritz it could pass  --execname="$0" to moar
19:56 moritz no idea if windows has an equivalent
19:57 moritz and the same approach might work for the JVM too
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20:45 dalek roast: dab8862 | (David Warring david.warring@gmail.com)++ | integration/advent2013-day19.t:
20:45 dalek roast: adding advent 2013 day 19
20:45 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/dab8862bc8
20:48 dalek rakudo/nom: 69109d2 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/asyncops.pm:
20:48 dalek rakudo/nom: Move &invoke_right to global INVOKE_KV
20:48 dalek rakudo/nom:
20:48 dalek rakudo/nom: So List.winners can use it also
20:48 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/69109d228f
20:48 dalek rakudo/nom: 883145d | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/List.pm:
20:48 dalek rakudo/nom: Naive implementation of .winners()
20:48 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/883145d27d
20:49 lizmat $ time perl6 -e '(^10).pick(*).map( { start { .sleep; $_ } } ).winners: { $:v.print }'
20:49 lizmat 0123456789
20:49 lizmat real0m9.339s
20:49 lizmat user0m0.773s
20:49 lizmat sys0m0.090s
20:51 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
20:51 lizmat jnthn: seems we got a .winners  !
20:52 hoverboard joined #perl6
20:52 jnthn lizmat: Hmm. Did S17 get one too? ;)
20:52 lizmat no, not yet, but from your question I gather it should  ?
20:52 jnthn lizmat: What are its semantics, rough?
20:52 jnthn *roughly
20:53 lizmat given a list of Promises / Channels, it returns a lazy list with results in the order they were seen
20:53 lizmat optionally calling a code block when each Promise is kept / a Channel has something to mention
20:54 jnthn What's the code block do?
20:54 jnthn Does it have map semantics?
20:54 jnthn That is, the lazy list gets its return values?
20:54 lizmat it works the same as the code block in winner
20:55 lizmat yup, the lazy list gets its return values
20:55 jnthn Oh, so you can optionally take the thing that spake?
20:55 lizmat $ perl6 -e 'my @a; (^10).pick(*).map( { start { .sleep; $_ } } ).winners: { @a.push: $:v }; say @a
20:55 lizmat 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
20:55 lizmat so you can safely push to an array in that code block
20:56 lizmat or take, indeed
20:56 jnthn ah, actor semantics.
20:56 jnthn Though the lazy list surely hsa them too?
20:56 jnthn *has
20:56 jnthn Uh, is safe to iterate I mean...
20:57 lizmat $ perl6 -e 'my @a = gather { (^10).pick(*).map( { start { .sleep; $_ } } ).winners: { take $:v } }; say @a'
20:57 lizmat 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
20:57 jnthn nice
20:57 BenGoldberg What about: say gather { (^10).map( { start { .sleep; $_ } ).winners: { } };
20:58 BenGoldberg Err\
20:58 BenGoldberg What about: say gather { (^10).map( { start { .sleep; take $_ } ).winners: { } };
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20:59 lizmat $ perl6 -e 'my @a = gather { (^10).pick(*).map( { start { .sleep; take $_ } } ) }; say @a'
20:59 lizmat that's indeed one of those cases where it just doesn't work
20:59 BenGoldberg I didn't really expect it to, honestly
20:59 BenGoldberg The gather is in one task/thread, and the take is in another
20:59 lizmat if the take is in a different thread, it won't work
21:00 jnthn I suspect the problem is that the take isn't in the dynamic scope of the gather
21:00 jnthn Since it's on a different thread.
21:00 jnthn Though it's in the lexical scope, so...
21:01 lizmat well, if that isn't supposed to work, then it should warn / die
21:02 lizmat $ time perl6 -e 'my @a := (^10).pick(*).map( { start { .sleep; $_ } } ).winners: { $:v.print }; say @a[5]'
21:02 lizmat 0123455
21:02 lizmat real0m5.357s
21:02 lizmat user0m0.689s
21:02 lizmat sys0m0.096s
21:02 lizmat which shows it is a lazy list indeed
21:02 jnthn lizmat: I'm surprising it doesn't die.
21:02 jnthn *surprised
21:03 jnthn lizmat: Like, really surprised...
21:03 lizmat you mean because we exit before waiting for all the threads ?
21:03 jnthn No, I'm surprised the take doesn't die.
21:03 jnthn With a nasty internal error if nothing else.
21:04 lizmat maybe it just takes to a copy in the local thread that we never see?
21:05 jnthn maybe
21:06 jnthn I'll try and get the exit time stuff fixed up this weekend in moar-conc
21:06 jnthn Though I only get a half-weekend...gotta go travel to Stockholm on Sunday.
21:06 lizmat but other than that, you're happy with .winners ?
21:07 jnthn lizmat: Well, it is a cute combinator
21:07 jnthn lizmat: I think we'll need to discuss its error semantics at some point
21:09 lizmat it's basically the same error semantics as winner {...}
21:11 denis_boyun_ joined #perl6
21:13 dalek rakudo/nom: e6f73eb | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/ChangeLog:
21:13 dalek rakudo/nom: Add entries for winner {} fix and new .winners()
21:13 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e6f73eb941
21:17 dayangkun_ joined #perl6
21:18 segomos did caller get renamed?
21:22 lizmat not that I know of
21:23 segomos is it just 'caller.whatever' or ?, i'm starting to find references to %CALLER, $.caller, $CALLER, and various other combinations
21:23 jnthn segomos: What are you trying to achieve?
21:24 jnthn (there's more than one mechanism in this space and it's hard to know what to point you at without knowing the use case)
21:26 dalek rakudo/nom: a757718 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | t/spectest.data:
21:26 dalek rakudo/nom: Adding dwarrings++ advent 2013 tests to roast
21:26 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a757718d99
21:26 segomos jnthn: i'm trying to do something similar to perl5's Web::Scraper and in doing so, i need the 'process' blocks to be bound to an objects, though i'd like the syntax to be plain and clean like web::scraper
21:27 lizmat for moar: Files=799, Tests=31002
21:27 segomos https://metacpan.org/pod/Web::Scraper
21:27 jnthn segomos: Thanks, looking
21:28 jnthn segomos: It's still not clear why you need CALLER
21:28 jnthn segomos: I think I'd used dynvars to handle this.
21:28 jnthn sub scraper(&decls) { my %*SCRAPER_STUFF; decls(); ...process them... }
21:29 jnthn sub process($thing, *%adverbs) { %*SCAPER_STUFF{$thing} = %adverbs; } # or whatever
21:30 segomos i c, i think i get it - i'll screw around with it some more that way - thank you
21:30 jnthn I think that'll be much neater than using caller.
21:30 jnthn Well, CALLER I guess
21:30 lue How do I write up a function (or chain of functions), and throw an array of filenames at it and say "process these in parallel" (i.e. a parallel  do_stuff($_) for @names)? I tried messing with Channel, but it doesn't seem to be what I want.
21:30 jnthn But I tend to see that as a last resort.
21:31 segomos jnthn: that is way better, and it works as desired - tyvm
21:31 jnthn segomos: Welcome. Look forward to seeing the module :)
21:31 jnthn lue: Do you need to get results back, or not?
21:31 segomos jnthn: this one and my csv::query are fighting for my attention atm :-)
21:32 lue jnthn: no, the process just outputs a file in the end, I don't need to get anything back from the function. (This is for that synopsis generator of mine, wanting to see if paralleling it speeds it up any.)
21:34 denis_boyun joined #perl6
21:35 dalek nqp/jnthn-lex-loc: 4dd7814 | jnthn++ | src/NQP/Optimizer.nqp:
21:35 dalek nqp/jnthn-lex-loc: Walk default defaults in the optimizer.
21:35 dalek nqp/jnthn-lex-loc: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/4dd78145ff
21:35 dalek specs: 9e4c566 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S17-concurrency.pod:
21:35 dalek specs: Also mention MoarVM
21:35 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/9e4c566b7e
21:36 jnthn lue: await @files.map: -> $file start { ...process $file... };
21:36 lue Ah, didn't catch the await keyword :) .
21:38 jnthn uh, I screwed up the syntax
21:38 jnthn await @files.map: -> $file { start { ...process $file... } }
21:38 lizmat lue: or now: @files.map( -> $file start { ... process file; $result } ).winners: { ... process $:v }
21:39 jnthn lizmat: I think that end-weights it less well in this case, mind...
21:40 jnthn lizmat: Especially if you don't care for processing the files.
21:40 jnthn lizmat: uh, I mean processing the results
21:40 lizmat ah, ok
21:40 jnthn lizmat: Which thread is the block invoked on, ooc?
21:41 lizmat the thread doing .winners
21:41 lizmat :q
21:41 * hugme hugs lizmat, good vi(m) user!
21:41 lizmat .winners is basically:
21:42 lizmat map { winner * { done @awaitables { $:v } } }
21:42 jnthn ah, k.
21:42 jnthn Makes sense.
21:42 lizmat with some work reducing @waitables and exiting when there are no awaitables left
21:42 jnthn If you want thread affinity, there's supplies.
21:43 jnthn Uh, the other kind of... :)
21:43 lizmat hehe
21:43 lizmat also, note lines 383-384:
21:43 lizmat # for some reason we cannot check &block for definedness
21:43 lizmat # as it will bomb on a signature mismatch *without* being called
21:44 lizmat hence the INVOKE_KV( &block // sub {},  # yuck
21:44 lizmat something to be investigated later, haven't been able to golf that just yet
21:45 BenGoldberg Maybe you could just provide a default value for &block?
21:45 lizmat well, that's what I'm doing essentially
21:46 lizmat I'd rather not have to invoke INVOKE_KV if it's not necessary
21:46 jnthn Odd...
21:46 BenGoldberg Provide a default value for &block, then check whether block is equal to that default value.
21:46 jnthn Maybe it's golfable?
21:47 lue on my few-days-old rakudo, this segfaults on perl6-m and hangs on perl6-j after everything is done: https://gist.github.com/lue/9886068
21:47 lizmat lue: please prefix the .map with await
21:48 lizmat until jnthn++ has had time to fix up the exiting when threads still running issues
21:48 lue Of course I forget the Important Keyword™ :P
21:48 jnthn Or get yourself a newer perl6-j to fix its exit hang.
21:49 lue yeah, I'll be sure to update in a moment :) .
21:49 lizmat jnthn: I just realized that $:v is specced to contain the promise
21:49 lizmat I implemented it as having the value, to be more in line with channels
21:50 lizmat if one would want the actual promise, the $:k value should allow fetching it from the original list
21:50 lizmat fwiw, I've had little use for the Promise itself, other than getting its result
21:51 jnthn lizmat: Well, it's mostly useful to unpack it yourself to get control over the exception.
21:52 lizmat perhaps .winners should not return the values
21:52 lizmat but the promises in order ?
21:52 lizmat hmmm... but that wouldn't work with Channels
21:53 BenGoldberg List if pairs, with Promise or Channel as the key, and values as the values?
21:53 BenGoldberg s/if/of
21:54 lizmat I guess jnthn's point was that if you return the value, you've already died if the Promise was broken
21:55 lizmat by just passing the Promise, you have control on when the Promise is checked
21:55 BenGoldberg Hmm
21:56 lizmat FWIW, the longer I'm working on winner {} and .winners, I find trying to force handling of Channels and Promises into the same syntax
21:56 lizmat rather contrived
21:56 BenGoldberg How about: If the Promise was broken, then the value of the pair would be a Failure object.
21:58 lizmat the Promise.excuse   hmmm...
21:59 BenGoldberg IIRC, the excuse is an exception... the value of the pair would be that exception, wrapped in a Failure
22:00 BenGoldberg IIUC, attempting to use a Failure as a normal value results in an exception being thrown
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22:09 lizmat hmmm... I always thought that Promise.excuse returned a Failure
22:10 jnthn No, returns the Exception itself.
22:10 jnthn No point lazifying it, I think.
22:11 lizmat so no point in doing:
22:11 lizmat $contestant.status == Kept
22:11 lizmat +                                ?? $contestant.result
22:11 lizmat +                                !! $contestant.excuse
22:11 lizmat ?
22:11 lizmat or should I wrap the .excuse in a Failure ?
22:12 lizmat and if so, how do I do that ?  Failure.new( $contestant.excuse ) ?
22:13 jnthn lizmat: No, I don't think excuse should wrap it in a failure
22:13 jnthn lizmat: You're asking for the exception there
22:14 BenGoldberg I don't think excuse itself should wrap the exception in the failure... rather .winner should wrap the exception in a failure when putting it as the value of a paire.
22:14 lizmat please note that winner {} should also work on channels
22:15 BenGoldberg Err, I meant to say, .winners
22:15 jnthn A Promise is kinda a one-value channel.
22:15 lizmat so, if it is a Channel returning a value, you would want a pair of Channel => value ?
22:16 BenGoldberg Right
22:16 jnthn Not entirely sure about pairs...
22:16 lizmat me neither, seems like a lot of extra work that may not be needed
22:17 BenGoldberg Maybe .winners should take an extra argument, so that the user can say whether they want a list of Channels/Promises, or a list of values, or ...
22:18 BenGoldberg D'oh, I know.  Just have .winners examine the prototype of the block it's passed.
22:19 lizmat that's what INVOKE_KV does
22:32 dalek rakudo/nom: 567105e | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/asyncops.pm:
22:32 dalek rakudo/nom: For now, wrap failed Promises in a Failure
22:32 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/567105e373
22:32 hoverboard joined #perl6
22:33 lizmat and with that, I'm going to sleep on the ramifications of handling both Channels and Promises with winner {} and .winners
22:33 lizmat gnight #perl6!
22:36 jnthn 'night, lizmat++
22:38 dalek nqp/jnthn-lex-loc: d317008 | jnthn++ | src/vm/jvm/ModuleLoader.nqp:
22:38 dalek nqp/jnthn-lex-loc: Eliminate epic hack in JVM ModuleLoader.
22:38 dalek nqp/jnthn-lex-loc:
22:38 dalek nqp/jnthn-lex-loc: The optimizer now got clever enough to see through the hack.
22:38 dalek nqp/jnthn-lex-loc: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/d317008d0c
22:43 dalek nqp: 44181ad | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Optimizer.nqp:
22:43 dalek nqp: Start recording var decls/usages.
22:43 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/44181ada13
22:43 dalek nqp: d062aa3 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Optimizer.nqp:
22:43 dalek nqp: Implement lexical => local lowering.
22:43 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/d062aa3ca9
22:43 dalek nqp: a83cec1 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Optimizer.nqp:
22:43 dalek nqp: Can lower $/ and self also.
22:43 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/a83cec12bc
22:43 dalek nqp: 39e7a00 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Optimizer.nqp:
22:43 dalek nqp: Fix spello; [Coke]++.
22:43 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/39e7a006bf
22:43 dalek nqp: 4dd7814 | jnthn++ | src/NQP/Optimizer.nqp:
22:43 dalek nqp: Walk default defaults in the optimizer.
22:45 dalek rakudo/nom: 39a18e2 | jnthn++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
22:45 dalek rakudo/nom: Bump to an NQP with lex->loc optimization.
22:45 dalek rakudo/nom:
22:45 dalek rakudo/nom: Gets us faster builds/compiles/spectests.
22:45 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/39a18e2b93
22:50 pecastro joined #perl6
23:24 Mouq [lizmat, jnthn]»++
23:24 Mouq p6: return 1;
23:24 camelia rakudo-parrot 890878, rakudo-jvm 890878, rakudo-moar 890878: ( no output )
23:24 camelia ..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Illegal control operator: return␤  at /tmp/tmpfile line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4595 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4596 (module-CORE @ 576) ␤  at /home/…»
23:25 Mouq ^^ Segfaults on Moar in -e

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