Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-04-09

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:21 TimToady for the record, I'm fine with assign_pos and assign_key
00:21 TimToady though we might want to go a step further and have WHENCE-less lvalues that represent those, so we can pass lvalues to natives
00:22 TimToady (in addition to those ops, not instead of)
00:24 TimToady basically, we need some sort of GC-safe pointers to both scalar natives and composites of natives
00:25 TimToady then $native++ becomes trivial to implement
00:28 TimToady and if these pointers are themselves considered a native type, they could also be incremented easily to point to the next array entry (with bounds checking, presumably)
00:28 TimToady as in Go's array pointers
00:30 TimToady and there are a whole bunch of optimizations that come into play as soon as we know an array is of fixed size
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00:41 beginner hello
00:42 beginner what would you guys recommend the best way to learn perl is
00:42 TimToady Learning Perl is a pretty good book for that
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00:52 BenGoldberg beginner, If you join #perl, you'll get lots more advice on how to learn perl than you will here.
00:52 BenGoldberg The #perl6 channel is for discussing perl6, a programming language which has many similarities to perl(5), but which is most definitely not the same language.
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06:55 jnthn morning, #perl6
06:56 moritz \o jnthn, #perl6, *
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07:00 jnthn TimToady: Thanks; I'll look into an assign_pos/assign_key. Yes, I plotted the container spec stuff to let me do native things, and be able to convey it down to the VM. Just didn't get to implement it yet.
07:03 timotimo o/
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07:21 nwc10 good *, #perl6
07:22 lizmat nwc10 o/ from Zurich
07:22 * nwc10 wonders what is happening in Zurich today
07:22 jnthn Mmmm...Zurich :)
07:22 nwc10 or are you there because even the XP Zombie apocalypse would think twice about invading Switzerland?
07:23 brrt hi lizmat
07:23 brrt and nwc10
07:23 brrt and all
07:23 lizmat Damian teaching Perl 6
07:23 nwc10 aha.
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07:23 nwc10 naughty Australians with their naughty cricket team
07:24 jnthn Does naughty in this case mean, "beating England"? :P
07:25 nwc10 obviously.
07:25 nwc10 more than once.
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07:51 sergot morning o/
07:52 * moritz notices with horror that openssh depends on openssl
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11:31 moritz LHF: git-bisect rakudo to find the commit that leads to t/spec/integration/99problems-21-to-30.t failing tests
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12:13 retupmoca moritz: openssh doesn't use TLS from openssl, so it isn't affected
12:14 retupmoca (assuming you're talking about heartbleed)
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12:17 nwc10 moritz: is there a last known good revision?
12:18 nwc10 (not, to be clear, I'm not proposing to take the task, but if that's know then it makes the L much Lower)
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13:27 moritz nwc10, anybody: should be good 3699aaf672c47987168e33a02c2c31b3a4798232 (trust by verify!)
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13:33 * lizmat wonders why we haven't implemented "is cached" yet
13:33 lizmat is there a particular reason for that?  Or is that LHF
13:33 lizmat ?
13:34 colomon lizmat: the simple case is pretty easy to implement
13:34 colomon hard cases are hard.
13:35 colomon though do I remember correctly that you can have hashes with non-string keys now?
13:35 colomon that would help a lot
13:36 lizmat yes, you can
13:36 lizmat Sets/Bags/Mixes depend on them
13:36 lizmat well, in their original implementation  :-)
13:36 lizmat but the same trick could be used for "is cached", I would think
13:39 * lizmat decides to ponder on this some more  :-)
13:39 * lizmat would like to have *all* of Damian's examples *actually work*(TM)
13:39 colomon lizmat: http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/author/foobar123/page/2/
13:39 colomon Damian's examples wheree?
13:40 lizmat at the Perl 6 course he is giving right now in Zurich, Switzerland
13:40 colomon oh!
13:40 colomon sweet!
13:41 * colomon remembers the p6 team adding a feature for Damian during one of his lectures at YAPC::NA 2010 (I think that was the year)
13:41 colomon is there more information on the course somewhere online?
13:42 * Ven thinks scalar parameters would be the easiest case of `is cached`
13:42 lizmat http://damian.conway.org/Courses/ProgPerl6.html
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13:42 * Ven would like to see that course, too
13:43 Ven actually, easiest to cache is 0-ary
13:43 colomon damian++
13:44 Ven multi sub trait_mod:<is>(pattern match on empty sig $r, $:cached!) { my $cache; $r.wrap(-> { $cache // callsame }); }
13:44 tadzik I read Rationalized as Randomized, getting Randomized syntax and semantics
13:47 Ven r: say reverse "foo" # is that still true
13:47 camelia rakudo-jvm da1ef6: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
13:47 camelia ..rakudo-parrot da1ef6, rakudo-moar da1ef6: OUTPUT«foo␤»
13:49 colomon m: say flip "foo"
13:49 camelia rakudo-moar da1ef6: OUTPUT«oof␤»
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13:57 * Ven is trying to get rakudo-js to compile ...
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14:02 * Ven ... but fails doing so !
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14:13 Ven what's that "js-blib" yer talking 'bout !
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14:26 raiph Ven: aiui the initial cut at *NQP* on js must be wrapped first
14:27 Ven raiph: (auiu ?) initial cut ?
14:28 raiph sorry, aiui = as i understand it, first cut = a sufficiently working version
14:29 Ven raiph: then last part (:p) : "wrapped" ? I get that if it's self-hosting, you have to compile something first -- I followed README's instructions tho
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14:33 raiph Ven: heh, sorry about all those idioms; by "wrapped" I just meant done -- NQP on js isn't yet (sufficiently) done
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14:43 Ven raiph: oh, okay. I guess it should be something to move to moar by now, too ?
14:43 Ven from what i see, moar didn't exist then ?
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14:48 * Ven can't even build rakudo because of a "syntax error in tools/lib/nqp/configure.pm"
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14:54 raiph Ven: have you previously successfully built rakudo on the same system?
14:55 Ven raiph: nope, never. Thought I'd try and help somehow somewhere :)
14:56 raiph Ven: what instructions are you following? (link?)
14:58 Ven commuting & (thanks for the help raiph !)
14:59 raiph \o later
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15:05 retupmoca I wrote some documentation for my LibraryMake module - could I get someone to read over it and make sure it's understandable/includes everything needed? https://github.com/retupmoca/P6-LibraryMake
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15:06 retupmoca If you were to come in asking "How do I bundle and use a .so file with my panda distribution?", I want that README to give you what you need
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15:14 moritz retupmoca: looks good
15:17 timotimo retupmoca: do you have any clue how to make this cooperate with pre-existing makefiles?
15:17 awwaiid "retupmoc7" was my handle when I was a TI-85 hacker. Greetings retupmoca!
15:17 awwaiid I pronounced mine with a klingon accent, personally.
15:17 awwaiid (the 7 is slient)
15:20 retupmoca timotimo: you want to just run 'make' on panda install?
15:20 jnthn yays I teached all the thigns
15:20 jnthn and will have more Perl 6 time/energy the rest of the week :)
15:20 jnthn decommute &
15:21 timotimo retupmoca: well ... i guess?
15:21 timotimo what if my game has assets that would be compiled "from source" (xcf to png for example) when you get it from my repo
15:22 retupmoca timotimo: you can write your own Makefile.in in the src (or whatever) directory
15:22 timotimo oh nice :)
15:23 retupmoca timotimo: that's what that is - an example of a Makefile.in that you would write
15:23 timotimo aaaaah
15:23 timotimo i see that now
15:23 timotimo good hint
15:24 retupmoca I should probably add a line about how those are examples of what you would write in your project
15:25 timotimo my confusion only serves to make your documentation better :)
15:25 retupmoca indeed :)
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15:43 timotimo retupmoca: the change to NativeCall hasn't entered the master branch yet?
15:57 lizmat dinner&
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15:58 vendethiel "you just subscribed to 26 perl6 repositories" thanks moritz !
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16:05 timotimo yay \o/
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16:41 vendethiel raiph: so, basically, I was following the install.txt
16:41 vendethiel which didn't work on my school comp, but seems to work here ?!
16:43 raiph vendethiel: rakudo build requires a "recent" perl5; I'm guessing your school comp has a very old perl5
16:43 timotimo hehe. "recent" :)
16:43 timotimo from only shortly after i was born
16:43 geekosaur in particular, rhel / centos / scientific linux has perl 5.10 and there's a whole lot of stuff that doesn't work with it
16:44 geekosaur (rhel is fairly common in .edu)
16:45 moritz vendethiel: you're welcome. As a policy, I tend to give everybody a commit bit to the p6 repos who had a pull request accepted
16:45 colomon moritz++
16:45 moritz (or even asks nicely)
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16:49 timotimo isn't 5.10 enough for rakudo's build scripts?
16:52 vendethiel raiph: it has perl 5.8.8, which is what the install.txt recommends
16:53 vendethiel gmake-installdev completly blows up tho
16:55 vendethiel and I can't seem to redirect stderr to stdout...
16:55 vendethiel I guess 2>&1 doesn't work on windows uh ...
16:56 vendethiel moritz: yeah, I guessed so :)
16:57 geekosaur you'd need a unixy shell, not cmd.exe, certainly
16:58 geekosaur hm, actually it looks like cmd.exe *should* support that syntax
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16:58 vendethiel yeah, I remember it working.
16:59 geekosaur (I know they added a subset of unix fd redirection over just >file type stuff, but didn't know that part was there)
16:59 vendethiel I get tons and tons of errors, but at the beginning I've got "Warning: Building a shared parrot library may conflict with your previously-installed C:\rakudo\bin\libparrot.dll" which very well might be the error
16:59 geekosaur I think that's known, yes, if you have an installed version then building a new one is problematic
17:03 vendethiel removed it, still getting 18k lines of errors. Whew.
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17:21 raiph "Remove unneeded repos from github/perl6"
17:21 raiph https://questhub.io/realm/perl/quest/534571eabbd0bed24e00006d
17:22 raiph comments (or acting on them) appreciated
17:22 vendethiel raiph: seems like those github/ should be github.com/ ?
17:23 timotimo yeah
17:23 raiph fixed
17:26 timotimo i don't think simple-tests has any useful bits, it's almost completely devoid of content
17:31 retupmoca timotimo: jnthn wanted to do the NativeCall change in a different way
17:32 timotimo OK
17:32 retupmoca and that other way is not yet written
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17:37 retupmoca raiph: I know moritz is the one who forked Perl6-MIME-Base64 into perl6 org
17:37 retupmoca back when I first started working on it
17:38 jnthn Hmm, no dalek
17:41 timotimo Optimize Hash.at_key and Hash.bind_key.
17:42 timotimo Gives a 14% saving on while_hash_set benchmark.
17:42 timotimo jnthn authored 5 minutes ago
17:42 raiph rurban: I'm spring cleaning github.com/perl6; thoughts about moving /nqp-rx?
17:43 raiph Ven, timotimo, retupmoca: thx
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17:44 timotimo nqp-rx ... isn't that replicated under parrot/?
17:44 timotimo at least i seem to recall it's now a closely-tied-to-parrot project
17:45 jnthn timotimo: you forgot the jnthn++ :P
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17:46 timotimo jnthn++
17:47 timotimo 14%? i was hoping for something more like 14x! :P
17:47 jnthn timotimo: oh, that isn't the assign_key change :)
17:48 timotimo oh, it is not?
17:48 timotimo great! :)
17:48 * timotimo is no longer disappointed
17:48 jnthn No, that's just some opts I spotted on the existing code path, which will make every hash access faster
17:49 timotimo anything spesh can do to make hash access even faster still?
17:50 jnthn Well, once multispec is done, probably yes :)
17:50 jnthn And later there'll be inlining too of course.
17:54 timotimo inlining will do all kinds of magical things
17:54 timotimo at least in my hopes & dreams
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17:56 * vendethiel -- Perl6 is getting fast :)
17:57 timotimo almost
17:57 timotimo not yet for this month's release anyway
18:00 vendethiel in the grand scheme of things
18:00 * vendethiel -- according to keikaku
18:01 timotimo keikaku?
18:02 vendethiel plan
18:02 vendethiel "according to keikaku" is an internet phrase though
18:02 timotimo ah, ok
18:03 jnthn hehe :)
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20:04 jnthn I pushed adding assign_key and switching to it
20:04 jnthn No regressions that I can see :)
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20:05 jnthn Really need to get multispec done; things were a good bit faster before I made assign_key a multi.
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20:07 timotimo whoa.
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20:09 * vendethiel kinda wants to see how much % improvement that is
20:09 jnthn Hopefully quite a bit :)
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20:31 jnthn Pushed a few more opts :)
20:31 jnthn Detrain &
20:39 colomon hmmm, stage parse was slower this time than earlier today.  only by 1 second, but still….  ;)
20:42 timotimo with the very latest commits, there's a bit more code in there now
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20:49 jnthn colomon: I've had variance of around a second in parse times on my laptop over the last day or so
20:49 jnthn colomon: Without much correlation to what I was changing.
20:50 colomon probably depends as much on what else my machine was running as anything.  I was mostly just razzing you.
20:50 colomon you keep on coming up with optimizations faster than I get a chance to try them.
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21:18 timotimo m: say :16(ord("!"))
21:18 camelia rakudo-moar 541f9f: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding $str; expected 'Str' but got 'Int'␤  in sub unbase at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:6774␤  in block  at /tmp/PpN_lFOrAo:1␤␤»
21:18 timotimo oops, wrong way around
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21:18 timotimo m: say ord("!").base(16) # like this?
21:18 camelia rakudo-moar 541f9f: OUTPUT«21␤»
21:18 timotimo m: say ord("!").base(2) # like this?
21:18 camelia rakudo-moar 541f9f: OUTPUT«100001␤»
21:18 timotimo m: say ord("+").base(2)
21:19 camelia rakudo-moar 541f9f: OUTPUT«101011␤»
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21:21 jnthn Nice; spectest is a good bit faster on my machine at home than when I left on Sunday :)
21:22 timotimo \o/
21:22 jnthn 290s instead of 314s.
21:27 timotimo oh wow
21:30 jnthn Yes, happy to have it back under 300s :)
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21:56 segomos r: class a { method b { say self.b:defined; } }; my $d = a.new; say $d.b;
21:56 camelia rakudo-jvm 986916, rakudo-moar 986916: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
21:56 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 986916: OUTPUT«maximum recursion depth exceeded␤current instr.: 'print_exception' pc 143557 (src/gen/p-CORE.setting.pir:60951) (gen/parrot/CORE.setting:11212)␤called from Sub 'b' pc 167 ((file unknown):109) (/tmp/tmpfile:1)␤called from Sub 'b' pc 189 ((file unkno…»
21:56 timotimo huh?
21:57 segomos just wanted to see how it reacted..
21:57 timotimo how is that :defined supposed to apply?
21:57 segomos r: class a { method b { say self.b.perl.say; } }; my $d = a.new; say $d.b;
21:58 camelia rakudo-moar 986916: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
21:58 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 986916: OUTPUT«java.lang.StackOverflowError␤␤»
21:58 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 986916: OUTPUT«maximum recursion depth exceeded␤current instr.: 'print_exception' pc 143557 (src/gen/p-CORE.setting.pir:60951) (gen/parrot/CORE.setting:11212)␤called from Sub 'b' pc 167 ((file unknown):109) (/tmp/tmpfile:1)␤called from Sub 'b' pc 189 ((file unkno…»
21:58 jnthn I suspect it ignores it and then just recurses forever :)
21:58 segomos timotimo: it's not, it should be the self.can or any one of the introspective functions, just curious how the engines other than moar are handling it
21:58 timotimo oh?
21:59 jnthn moar doesn't presently enforce a recursion limit
21:59 timotimo is that specced? that :defined would cause that behavior?
21:59 * jnthn doesn't remember seeing it ever :)
21:59 segomos i don't think so
22:00 jnthn It'll be parsed due to longname, as a colonpair as part of the name, iirc.
22:00 timotimo mhm
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22:01 jnthn Hm. I wonder why / ... { ... } ... / uses contextual scope to set up $/
22:01 jnthn (for the block invocation)
22:02 segomos timotimo: just me screwing around -
22:02 * timotimo is reading "php: a fractal of bad design" again
22:02 timotimo ~_~
22:02 timotimo i had forgotten how many things there were in that
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22:16 timotimo http://tortoisewrath.com/wat.htm#2000 - this is impressive
22:16 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=2000
22:20 lizmat seems that dd1f4fad6b1929dba005042cc3fd330d30f53526 is the one breaking t/spec/integration/99problems-21-to-30.t
22:22 jnthn lizmat: Hmmm...very weird.
22:22 jnthn lizmat: If you've time/motivation, a golf would be very appreciated.
22:25 lizmat working on that
22:25 lizmat taking out this candidate:
22:25 lizmat #multi map(&code, @values) { @values.map(&code) }
22:25 lizmat fixes the tests
22:26 lizmat first failing test uses map, the second grep
22:26 jnthn HHmmm
22:26 lizmat since grep is implemented in terms of map, I though I'd first try that
22:26 jnthn What's the type of @values here?
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22:27 lizmat } else {
22:27 lizmat (map { [@xs[0],$_.list] },combination($n-1,@xs[1..*])), combination($n,@xs[1..*])
22:27 lizmat }
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22:32 lizmat the failing tests all use the non slurpy variant
22:32 lizmat not ok 12 - combinations work.
22:32 lizmat #      got: '1 2 5 1 3 5 1 4 5 2 3 5 2 4 5 3 4 5'
22:32 lizmat # expected: '1 2 3 1 2 4 1 2 5 1 3 4 1 3 5 1 4 5 2 3 4 2 3 5 2 4 5 3 4 5'
22:33 lizmat not ok 13 - group works
22:33 lizmat #      got: ''
22:33 lizmat # expected: '1 2 3 1 2 4 1 3 2 1 3 4 1 4 2 1 4 3 2 3 1 2 3 4 2 4 1 2 4 3 3 4 1 3 4 2
22:35 jnthn Yeah, I mean what would @values.WHAT be?
22:35 jnthn (e.g. what does combination return)
22:36 jnthn oh, hang on...how can that one there call the @values candidate? There are two args to map after the closure...
22:38 lizmat not sure
22:39 jnthn o.O
22:39 jnthn Weird
22:53 lizmat the elements are arrays
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23:01 lizmat hmmm... seems we lost dalek: just committed a patch removing the non-slurpy candidate for map for now
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23:03 lizmat starting to lose coherency, so gnight #perl6!
23:04 timotimo who can fix dalek?
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23:23 timotimo m: say :16<34>
23:23 camelia rakudo-moar 986916: OUTPUT«52␤»
23:25 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
23:47 Ben_Goldberg joined #perl6
23:54 lue .oO(say :16<➂➃>)

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