Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-04-12

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 average I dunno, I just wanted to point out that if the link can be changed to https://rt.perl.org/Public , it would be better IMHO
00:00 havenwood sigils and twigils, oh my
00:01 timotimo yeah, sounds good to me
00:03 average also, lots of spam in that RT, nothing that spamassassin can't fix for example
00:22 jnthn I blug: https://6guts.wordpress.com/2014/04/1​2/optimization-concurrency-and-moar/
00:22 timotimo those "moar"/"more" jokes aren't ever going to stop
00:23 jnthn Nope :P
00:29 timotimo like'd :)
00:30 jnthn :)
00:30 jnthn 'night, #perl6
00:53 timotimo 'night jnthn
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02:59 raiph average: Iv
02:59 raiph average: I've changed the link
03:01 raiph (the "perl.org bug tracker" link on http://rakudo.org/how-to-help/)
03:02 average raiph: ah nice :)
03:02 average raiph: thanks :)
03:02 raiph .tell pmichaud I've tweaked a rakudo.org link per average++'s comment at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2014-04-12#i_8575582
03:02 yoleaux raiph: I'll pass your message to pmichaud.
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03:04 raiph jnthn++ # another excellent blog post covering excellent work
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04:23 TimToady added a solution to http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Left_factorials#Perl_6 that is 280 times faster
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04:26 lue Maybe you could use prefix:<¡> instead? :)
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05:47 moritz jnthn++ # blog
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06:27 adu jnthn++ # just because
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06:48 Woodi gmorning everyone
06:49 moritz \o
06:50 * moritz finds that searching 900k files / 350GB is slow even with Perl 5
06:50 Woodi thanx jnthn++ for blog, now I know what that damn spesh is :) and few more things even
06:50 moritz s/350/650/
06:54 Woodi jnthn: but I think your last blogs are in progress-raport form, ready for managers byings to read... I think something targetting able-to-do-hard-code-things devs would help community a lot by aiming at best ppls to work happening here...
06:55 adu which blog?
06:56 adu ah 6guts
06:57 Woodi jnthn: more detaily: writing about interesting, hard to grock internals changes could have appeal to some good brains. also: I think you could blog using communication form you use to talk to TimToady... eg. q: "what about at_pos ?", a: "ok, but WHENCE"...
06:58 Woodi it could help to upload p6 internals skeleton right to SSBrains...
06:59 adu what's SSBrains?
06:59 TimToady after the problem of too many cooks in the kitchen for Parrot, I think jnthn++ prefers to err on the other side
07:00 Woodi TimToady: just wanted to write something about lack of p5 internals chapter in moust popular p5 books :)
07:00 moritz Woodi: the able-to-do-hard-code-things devs just read the commit messages :-)
07:01 Woodi moritz: no, we need to hijack them first !
07:01 Woodi umm, what is what ladys do to men ?
07:02 TimToady lure?
07:02 Woodi seduce...
07:02 moritz talk, IME :-)
07:02 Woodi right, lure is similiar :)
07:02 TimToady actually, decide not to say "no", mostly :)
07:03 TimToady most men don't need much luring
07:03 Woodi it's isomorphic to reading commits messages :)
07:03 Woodi ok, need to work some...
07:04 TimToady .oO("I love it when you talk dirty...")
07:04 adu you would be surprised the power of not saying "no"
07:04 TimToady well, it's the only think keeps the human race going :)
07:05 adu when I asked my fiancee to spend the rest of her life with me she said "are you f**king sh**ing me?"
07:05 masak jnthn++ # nice blog post
07:05 masak jnthn++ # nice progress
07:05 masak others++ # too
07:07 adu TimToady: are you back from China yet?
07:07 TimToady mostly
07:08 TimToady various systems are not yet convinced
07:08 adu are you standing in line in immigration?
07:08 TimToady no, they don't allow electronics there
07:09 adu well, then welcome back, "mostly"
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07:58 lizmat wow: Files=801, Tests=31023, 183 wallclock secs ( 8.07 usr  3.67 sys + 1212.53 cusr 93.47 csys = 1317.74 CPU)
07:59 lizmat encroaching on 3 mins for doing the full spectest on moar
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08:10 dalek roast: 0003eab | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S03-operators/orelse.t:
08:10 dalek roast: Properly plan / skip orelse tests
08:10 dalek roast:
08:10 dalek roast: Before we had a plan, some tests were basically ignored.  Now with a plan,
08:10 dalek roast: and skips in place, we still somehow miss the last test being executed.
08:10 dalek roast: Patches welcome.
08:10 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/0003eab49e
08:11 lizmat decommute&
08:14 dalek roast: 13206ce | moritz++ | S03-operators/orelse.t:
08:14 dalek roast: fix fudging of orelse tests
08:14 dalek roast:
08:14 dalek roast: the ok() call needs to be at the start of the line, otherwise fudge ignores it
08:14 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/13206ce52a
08:14 moritz .tell lizmat ftfy (orelse.t)
08:14 yoleaux moritz: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
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08:41 Rounin Man, this Chinese tech blog someone posted here the other day has a frightening amount of relevant content
08:41 Rounin Did all the tech blogs emigrate to China after the .com bubble or something
08:42 Rounin Perhaps when Slashdot got bought
08:42 Rounin Well, blog schmog... It's a site with articles
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08:44 Rounin 那我來說,歡迎我們新中國霸主。
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08:53 masak China is increasingly becoming a happening place, if that's what you mean.
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08:55 masak something to do with bringing millions of people out of poverty and becoming a significant exporter of goods.
08:55 masak oh, and actually getting education right.
09:05 * moritz wonders if there are serious, better-working alternatives to today's classroom-style teaching
09:08 bonsaikitten moritz: at scale it's hard
09:08 Woodi moritz: university. only with students *interested* in learning what proffesors want to teach them even they are sure they are not interested in that :) and filling their free time with related subjects, private projects ets :)
09:09 bonsaikitten masak: china ...education ... uhm... they didn't get much right
09:10 moritz bonsaikitten: well, it wouldn't need to scale more than today's schools
09:10 moritz Woodi: IME university is pretty much like school, just a bit more liberal in what courses you take (and the resulting self-selection that actually does lead to more interested students)
09:10 bonsaikitten moritz: you mean one teacher for 40-60 kids that have the attention span of bicycle?
09:11 bonsaikitten the old german / "Humboldt" university system was quite interesting. But it got down-harmonized because advantages are unfair
09:15 Woodi moritz: I think that additional freedom is all what is needed. just self motivation is problem. and trust to authorities eg. why ALL that math matters ;)
09:16 Rounin moritz: I've heard great things about the "Experimenting with other things, losing a generation and going back to classroom-style teaching" methodology
09:16 masak moritz: there most likely are.
09:16 moritz Woodi: I think that the motivation problem is intrinsic to the current style of teaching (listening over doing, being confined to a class room etc.)
09:16 masak &
09:18 bonsaikitten motivation ... we make children not move for hours
09:18 bonsaikitten maybe that's not a good way to start education
09:18 moritz bonsaikitten: agreed
09:18 Rounin It seems like the Montessori schools do things radically differently... It must work to some extent, seeing as they're still there
09:18 bonsaikitten Rounin: it works only marginally worse than the normal schools
09:18 Rounin But who can tell what would appen if the entire general population of students were sent there
09:18 bonsaikitten so that's not too bad ;)
09:19 Rounin That's something at least :)
09:19 moritz bonsaikitten: by what metrics?
09:20 bonsaikitten moritz: trick question
09:20 bonsaikitten but - the kids I've known who went to such experimental schools were usually unable to adapt properly to hierarchical systems
09:20 bonsaikitten e.g. school, workplaces
09:23 moritz bonsaikitten: several families I know sent their children to Montessori schools precisely because they had probles adapting to hierarchical systems
09:23 Woodi additional problem is that some persons learn by viewing other by hearing and other by manually doing. and some less elastic - they need to force themselve to learn or do for some period of time and in one point they got small "enlightenment" point - learning/brain is not linear...
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09:25 Woodi they say ~10 years of learn/do/work to master some domain. works even for bakery :)
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09:28 moritz Woodi: but nearly everybody learns best when all of those activities are combined, plus teaching it back to others
09:29 moritz so doing that would be a pretty good approach
09:31 bonsaikitten I guess we'd have to get rid of the idea that all kids are equal
09:32 Rounin "Equal in value", "Equal in rights", "Equal in talents", "Equal in status" and so on so often seem to be conflated
09:32 Rounin It's as if people are afraid that the moment we admit that people are different, we'll be rolling out the gas chambers again
09:33 bonsaikitten Rounin: gas is too expensive, who would be able to pay for that?!
09:33 Woodi pleas stop
09:33 bonsaikitten I heard of schools that don't allow score keeping in sports, so that no one loses
09:33 Rounin Hmm...
09:33 Rounin Does it help I wonder
09:34 Rounin I was very well aware when I was a kid that I was good at maths and bad at sports
09:34 Rounin I'm thankful for all the gym classes I went to nonetheless :P
09:34 bonsaikitten "bad" is relative - I didn't have the strength for some things, but had the endurance to outrun everyone else
09:34 bonsaikitten sadly we never went above 1000m, so that was a big handicap ... ;)
09:35 Rounin :D
09:36 * moritz would have gladly skipped those 4km runs, and instead played more table tennis :-)
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09:37 bonsaikitten oh, 4-5km is nice. 1000m is almost a glorified sprint
09:38 Rounin I wish I'd had more time to play with QuickBASIC! A few more computer lessons, and I might have gotten it to do something
09:38 Woodi that's what I mean before :) kids need to try many fields and trust teachers that's good for them :)
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09:39 bonsaikitten Rounin: pff. just learn by modifying GORILLA.BAS
09:39 Woodi I do not liked to learn any "graphics" things in ANY form. and few years ago I wanted to edit photos, needed to learn from scrath
09:39 moritz bonsaikitten: it was NIBBLES.BAS for me :-)
09:40 bonsaikitten hehe
09:40 Woodi so some base knowledge is good
09:40 bonsaikitten I started learning C when I figured out that I couldn't allocate more than 64kB sanely in BASIC
09:40 Rounin Interesting approach, bonsaikitten
09:41 * moritz added a level editor, save&restore, lots of cheats and extra modi to nibbles
09:41 Rounin Though that will have to be in my next life, since I know how to code now :P
09:41 Rounin I mean, considering where we are and all
09:41 bonsaikitten Rounin: I wouldn't start with basic for new learners
09:41 Rounin Well, it was what we had at the time
09:41 Rounin I Windows 0.000007 or whatever it was
09:41 bonsaikitten give them python, then show them how C can be x times faster and let them figure out things like memory allocation and pointers
09:41 bonsaikitten work
09:42 * moritz knows how to code, but has learned that coding is only a very small part of programming
09:42 Rounin And then "I have a language that lets you write this in one line, mwahahaaah..."
09:42 bonsaikitten then when they are showing some proficiency give them LISP and watch their minds melt
09:42 Rounin :D
09:42 moritz or maybe s/programming/development/
09:42 moritz bonsaikitten: and when their minds are molten, give them Haskell :-)
09:43 jnthn morning, #perl6
09:43 moritz that needs to re-wire the brain anyway
09:43 moritz \o jnthn
09:43 Rounin Molten Minds would be a good trademark
09:43 Rounin I wonder if anyone is using it
09:43 Rounin Haha yes
09:43 Woodi btw. you know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi is famous in two swords fighting. what is less common that his father was policeman and was profficient in using special police weapons to disarm, two handed weapon... so background or starting early helps a lot
09:45 Woodi so in what age you was learnin that BASIC ? :)
09:50 Rounin Hmm...
09:50 Rounin Well, I saw some Commodore BASIC at 7-8, but I would think 10-12 for QBASIC
09:51 Rounin My friend found a book about it at the library near our school
09:51 Rounin It's the city's main library, so it also got internet access around the same time
09:52 Rounin Pretty cool place to spend an ever more extended lunch break
09:53 Woodi my interest in programming started around 10 but probably my brain prefer more sane things :)
09:53 Rounin :D
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10:34 FROGGS timotimo / tadzik: about the binaries that assimilate .moarvm files... I have some unpushed stuff locally, and I'll push that next week, when I am back from holidays...
10:36 tadzik okay :)
10:37 tadzik FROGGS++
10:38 jnthn FROGGS: Hope you're having a nice holidays! :)
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11:01 FROGGS jnthn: I have... the good thing about this place is that I only have GPRS, so hacking or something like that really is pain
11:03 jnthn Enforced vacation! :)
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11:11 FROGGS exactly :o)
11:11 FROGGS feels good somehow
11:13 tadzik :D
11:13 tadzik weird
11:13 * jnthn spectests a moar with cleaned up exit
11:13 tadzik I know the feeling, I spent a week recently in France, which, as we know, has no internet at all :P
11:13 jnthn m: Thread.start({ sleep 1; say 'bye' }); say 'hi'
11:13 camelia rakudo-moar aeda9d: OUTPUT«hi␤Unhandled exception: Cannot invoke null object␤»
11:13 jnthn m: Thread.start({ sleep 1; say 'bye' }); say 'hi'
11:13 camelia rakudo-moar aeda9d: OUTPUT«hi␤Unhandled exception: Cannot invoke null object␤»
11:13 jnthn hah :)
11:14 jnthn That now works out, with local changes.
11:14 tadzik \o/
11:14 jnthn should mean we're rid of the SIGABRT too, I hope.
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12:34 moritz \o/
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13:05 lizmat moritz /o
13:05 yoleaux 08:14Z <moritz> lizmat: ftfy (orelse.t)
13:05 lizmat ftfy?
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13:08 timotimo o/
13:08 timotimo "fixed that for you"
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13:20 lizmat ah, cool
13:26 dalek specs: fa542ea | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S99-glossary.pod:
13:26 dalek specs: Add ftfy lemma
13:26 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/fa542ea3ff
13:26 timotimo i wonder if a "spesh" lemma is in order?
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13:29 lizmat most definitely!
13:29 lizmat patches welcome  :-)
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13:30 timotimo yeah, i could do that
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13:37 timotimo hm. now it seems like i have to add lemmata for JIT and bytecode
13:40 masak Just Insert It!
13:40 masak er
13:40 masak Just Insert Them!
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13:43 jnthn .oO( And keep them away from the cliff edge... )
13:45 dalek specs: 8dbfac0 | timo++ | S99-glossary.pod:
13:45 dalek specs: a sentence on spesh
13:45 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/8dbfac0b50
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13:49 masak by the way, if someone has a peripheral interest in category theory, and a nagging suspicion that ZFC might not be the most optimal way to axiomatize sets, I warmly recommend http://arxiv.org/abs/1212.6543 -- a nice short read, which doesn't throw the reader off the deep end with CT concepts.
13:52 eiro hello
13:52 timotimo wow, the core.setting.jar is only 2 megabytes big?
13:52 timotimo is that the compression of jar files that's doing that?
13:53 timotimo well, gzipping the moarvm core setting shrinks it down to 1.7 mb, whereas the core.setting.pbc gzip'd is also 2 megabytes big
13:55 jnthn timotimo: Yeah. Compression is good, but compress the bytecode and you can't mmap it
13:55 timotimo yup
13:55 timotimo somehow the jvm still ends up having fantastic startup times and memory usage characteristics
13:55 timotimo oh ... wait
13:55 jnthn :D
13:59 Rounin Did you just say JVM, fantastic startup times and memory usage characteristic at the same time
13:59 timotimo :D
13:59 Rounin I thought it was April 12th already
13:59 timotimo that matches /April ' ' 1/
14:00 Rounin Ah
14:01 Rounin Ganz logisch
14:01 cognominal masak, have you seen the latest developments?   homotopies a way to represent types  ! I groked the first chapter. And choked on the second ; so I am reading material to be able to understand it. btw, that's an open source book written by a team gathered (sometimes virtually) around a guy who got the Fields medal.  http://homotopytypetheory.org/book/
14:05 timotimo i think that book is quite famous enough that masak has already heard of it :)
14:05 retupmoca Project Digest::HMAC not found in the ecosystem # when does this get pulled into panda's ecosystem? It's been on modules.perl6.org for almost 24 hours
14:06 masak cognominal: yes, I've seen the homotopy book. I've scratched the surface of homotopy theory. after having delved fairly deeply into CT in the past year, I know for a fact I'm not ready for HT yet.
14:07 masak cognominal: there was a claim on the p6l list on the order of HT revolutionizing comp.sci./type theory (and by extension, maybe Perl 6 should pay attention to it and be based on it?). I very nearly replied to that email. to me, it appears that HT doesn't overthrow anything (nor does CT), but it sometimes puts things on a more solid/general foundation.
14:09 cognominal as if, the scope of the Perl 6 project was not large enough as it stands  :)
14:09 masak the paper I linked is a good example of that kind of re-foundationing.
14:10 masak "Category theory is just mathematicians learning to program by interface" -- (quoted from memory) Eric Meijer
14:11 cognominal masak:  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/perl.perl6.language/nZT_KCGTbm8    that post?
14:13 masak that post.
14:13 Rounin One day I'd like mathematicians to learn proper variable and function names
14:14 Rounin The world would most likely undergo a scientific revolution
14:14 masak the short answer is "No. Sets are very relatively useful in everyday programming. Topoi aren't."
14:14 masak I'd love for someone to prove me wrong!
14:15 moritz in fact, at least half of my ad-hoc scripts contain an ad-hoc implementation of sets based on hashes
14:15 moritz typically in the form   next if $seen{$key}++;
14:15 vendethiel (Eric Meijer just looks mad because he considers he's lost time with haskell)
14:16 masak and it's not just "mathemathical fashion sensitivity". even HoTT contains set theory as a (fairly central) special case.
14:16 masak the other cases being more exotic but less everyday.
14:16 masak 'night, #perl6
14:17 retupmoca spectest on moar head/head/head seems to be hanging on spec/S17-concurrency/lock.t
14:17 retupmoca been 6/8 with 0 cpu time for a while now
14:18 retupmoca if I run it manually it looks like it runs through all 8 (failing 1) and then hangs at exit
14:19 jnthn May like to try MoarVM HEAD, which has a better exit strategy.
14:20 retupmoca This is perl6 version 2014.03.01-128-gaeda9d0 built on MoarVM version 2014.03-202-g695fdf9
14:20 * moritz tries
14:20 retupmoca jnthn: pretty sure I'm running your latest patch
14:22 retupmoca out of 6 runs, 4 hung and 2 exited cleanly
14:22 moritz yes, 2014.03-202-g695fdf9 looks like latest
14:22 vendethiel https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/perl.perl6.language/GKSIbeNYZto good read
14:22 jnthn retupmoca: OK, must be something else, then.
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14:28 retupmoca tadzik: how often does the panda ecosystem json file update on the server?
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14:41 tadzik retupmoca: every hour
14:42 retupmoca tadzik: does that include adding new modules? Digest::HMAC has been on modules.perl6.org for a while now, but panda claims no knowledge of it
14:44 retupmoca tadzik: I added it to META.list at about 14:40Z yesterday, but I'm not seeing it in feather's projects.json
14:45 tadzik retupmoca: hm, let me see
14:50 tadzik ah, stupid LWP doesn't follow redirections
14:51 tadzik and/or hates ssl
14:51 retupmoca do I need to put a non-redirecting URL someplace maybe?
14:52 tadzik no, no need
14:52 tadzik not your fault
14:53 tadzik I fixed it now, and http://feather.perl6.nl:3000/module/Digest;HMAC works
14:53 tadzik thanks for reporting it
14:53 retupmoca tadzik++ ty sir
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15:52 vendethiel r: 123456789123.Str.split(/ ( \d ** 3 ) /).perl.say
15:52 camelia rakudo-jvm aeda9d: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
15:52 camelia ..rakudo-parrot aeda9d, rakudo-moar aeda9d: OUTPUT«("", "", "", "", "").list␤»
15:59 moritz m: say 123456789123.Str.comb(/ \d ** 3 /).perl
15:59 camelia rakudo-moar aeda9d: OUTPUT«("123", "456", "789", "123").list␤»
16:04 vendethiel m: say 1234567891235.Str.comb(/ \d ** 1..3 /).perl
16:04 camelia rakudo-moar aeda9d: OUTPUT«("123", "456", "789", "123", "5").list␤»
16:04 vendethiel m: say 1234567891235.Str.flip.comb(/ \d ** 1..3 /).reverse.join('').perl
16:04 camelia rakudo-moar aeda9d: OUTPUT«"1432765198532"␤»
16:05 vendethiel m: say 1234567891235.Str.flip.comb(/ \d ** 1..3 /).reverse.join(' ').perl
16:05 camelia rakudo-moar aeda9d: OUTPUT«"1 432 765 198 532"␤»
16:05 vendethiel moritz++
16:06 vendethiel wait no o/
16:06 vendethiel m: say 1234567891235.Str.flip.comb(/ \d ** 1..3 /).reverse.map(&flip).join(' ').perl
16:06 camelia rakudo-moar aeda9d: OUTPUT«"1 234 567 891 235"␤»
16:07 moritz m: say 1234567891235.flip.comb(/ \d ** 1..3/).reverse>>.flip
16:07 camelia rakudo-moar aeda9d: OUTPUT«1 234 567 891 235␤»
16:10 vendethiel moritz: >> keeps the order, does it ?
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16:11 moritz vendethiel: it executes out of order, but the return values are ordered again
16:11 flussence ordered on the left, threaded on the right
16:12 vendethiel wasn't sure, that's why. What'd it take to get the regexp in "non-greedy" mode ? (where it'd match ** 1 everytime) ?
16:17 moritz **?
16:17 moritz m: say 1234.comb(/\d **? 1..3/)
16:17 camelia rakudo-moar aeda9d: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4␤»
16:18 moritz j: say 'timeout?'
16:18 camelia rakudo-jvm aeda9d: OUTPUT«timeout?␤»
16:20 vendethiel moritz++
16:23 moritz j: say 'alive'
16:23 camelia rakudo-jvm aeda9d: OUTPUT«alive␤»
16:24 havenwood joined #perl6
16:29 lizmat r: my $a; say $a * 4; $a *= 4; say $a
16:29 camelia rakudo-parrot aeda9d: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in numeric context  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤0␤4␤»
16:29 camelia ..rakudo-jvm aeda9d, rakudo-moar aeda9d: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in numeric context␤0␤4␤»
16:30 * lizmat wonders whether that is logical
16:31 lizmat would have expected either 4 4 or 0 0
16:31 lizmat is there a place where this behaviour is specced
16:31 lizmat ?
16:31 * geekosaur thinks that should have been 0 0
16:32 lizmat also:
16:32 lizmat r: say Any * 4; say Int * 4
16:32 camelia rakudo-moar aeda9d: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in numeric context␤0␤Invocant requires an instance, but a type object was passed␤  in method Bridge at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4442␤  in sub infix:<*> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4347␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfil…»
16:32 camelia ..rakudo-jvm aeda9d: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in numeric context␤0␤Cannot look up attributes in a type object␤  in method Bridge at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:4443␤  in sub infix:<*> at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:4347␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
16:32 camelia ..rakudo-parrot aeda9d: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in numeric context  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤0␤Invocant requires an instance, but a type object was passed␤  in method Bridge at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:4446␤  in sub infix:<*> at gen/parrot/CORE.setti…»
16:40 TimToady S03:4092 specs the behavior of op= on containers containing type objects
16:40 synopsebot Link: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S03.html#line_4092
16:40 TimToady basically, op= is considered a degenerate reduction
16:43 TimToady making op and op= would be a shallow consistency, but Perl 6 tends to prefer the deep semantic consistencies where there's a choice
16:44 TimToady hmm, looks like I a verb there
16:45 lizmat "operator's identify valiue"
16:45 lizmat shouldn't that read "identity" value ?
16:45 TimToady yup
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16:47 dalek specs: 9e5a70e | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S03-operators.pod:
16:47 dalek specs: Identified type and fixed
16:47 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/9e5a70e43c
16:48 lizmat *typo
16:50 TimToady it's also one of those spots where the design is assuming a decent optimizer to pull the is-it-defined? guard out of the loop
16:52 TimToady and maybe even just turn it into an initializer for the variable, with no need to check definedness at all
16:52 MikeFair_ joined #perl6
16:52 lizmat so how is the identity value of an operator determined ?
16:53 xinming joined #perl6
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16:53 moritz lizmat: with the zero-arity multi
16:53 TimToady the spec indicates it calls the nullary form of the operator
16:54 moritz m: say infix:<+>(), infix:<*>()
16:54 camelia rakudo-moar aeda9d: OUTPUT«01␤»
16:54 TimToady admittedly, only mentions that in the example
16:56 anaeem___ joined #perl6
17:00 * lizmat takes a little getting used to  $foo op= $bar not necessarily being the same as $foo = $foo op $bar
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17:37 timotimo i'm going to put rakudo-jvm/2014.03 data into the benchmark plots now
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17:56 jnthn arnsholt: Hm. I found a bit of a callbacks bug in NativeCall.
18:02 jnthn arnsholt: If you have a callback that is not invoked immediately, then:
18:02 jnthn 1) The callback cache re-uses it without consideration of the fact there may be many closure clones of the same code-ref, so closure semantics break
18:03 jnthn 2) The callback being the only thing rooting the closure means it gets up getting GC'd at some point, then boom SEGV.
18:03 jnthn Suspect this affects all backends.
18:03 jnthn Adding my own array of things and then disabling the insert into the callback cache gets my thing reliably working.
18:08 eiro jnthn, have you experienced pbs with compiling nqp on windows ? i'm struggling with java -cp because:
18:08 eiro * from msys, MSWin32 ne $^O
18:09 eiro * from cmd, i don't have a 64bits version of nmake
18:10 eiro so i'm trying to modify things to make msys work. maybe it's a false trail
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18:24 timotimo these slow benchmarks >_>
18:28 SamuraiJack__ joined #perl6
18:29 tadzik unrelated, but I lol'd: http://i.imgur.com/USnLRR0.jpg
18:30 timotimo hahaha
18:30 timotimo excellent
18:34 Rounin :D
18:40 jnthn eiro: No, I compile it each and every day on Windows :)
18:42 jnthn eiro: Don't think you should need a 64-bit nmake, especially to build JVM one
18:42 jnthn eiro: What issue do you hit?
18:47 eiro -cp is always broken because $^O is msys
18:48 eiro i have fixed this part (adding "" in JVM.in and cpsep when $^O is msys
18:49 eiro now i can compile some jars but later i have another error
18:49 eiro 3rdparty/asm/asm-tree-4.1.jar: 3rdparty/asm/asm-tree-4.1.jar: cannot execute binary file
18:50 eiro i though it was about $(CP (line 84)
18:50 eiro apparently it's not. i'm trying to make "make" verbose
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18:55 eiro jnthn, but maybe i should just use the same env as you. how did you setup yours ? do you use msys ? cygwin ?
19:07 rurban dont use msys, use mingw or MSVC or cygwin
19:08 eiro what's wrong with msys ?
19:08 eiro (if there is something wrong)
19:08 jnthn eiro: I build r-j with nmake
19:08 jnthn eiro: And an ActiveState Perl in the path
19:09 rurban it's only needed for cross-compiling to windows
19:09 eiro ok
19:09 eiro i'm pretty confortable with cygwin: i'm trying right now
19:10 rurban you are in the wrong shell. either the mingw bash or the old-style cmd.exe with strawberry or activeperl env
19:10 rurban cmd.exe for jvm preferred
19:11 jnthn Yes, shoulda mentioned that. Using the one with build stuff configured that a VS install (and so probably an Win SDK install) sets up.
19:11 eiro cmd ask me for nmake
19:11 eiro and windows complains about nmake to be 32bits binary
19:12 eiro ohh ... installing visual studio express is required so
19:13 xenoterracide_ joined #perl6
19:14 eiro wow ... i need a microsoft account :(
19:14 tadzik ah, yes
19:14 tadzik I can give you mine
19:14 tadzik I opened it only to compile my university project once
19:14 tadzik of course you can't compile your code w/o a microsoft account
19:16 eiro no: i have one. i just have to remember :)
19:21 btyler joined #perl6
19:23 eiro time's up: got to go to italias
19:23 eiro cya everyong
19:24 eiro s/ong/one
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19:39 timotimo oh wow the benchmarks are finally done
19:40 FROGGS linky?
19:41 timotimo soon
19:42 jnthn FROGGS: I just did a make modules-install against a latest MoarVM and only Digest::MD5 fails; was something done about that, since I seem to recall you getting a clean build?
19:42 FROGGS jnthn: https://github.com/cosimo/perl6-digest-md5/pull/4
19:43 FROGGS jnthn: so you might want to switch it to https://github.com/cosimo/perl6-digest-md5/pull/4
19:43 FROGGS err
19:43 FROGGS this https://github.com/FROGGS/perl6-digest-md5
19:43 jnthn FROGGS: ah, ok
19:43 retupmoca FROGGS: I have a feature request for Digest::MD5
19:43 FROGGS retupmoca: do tell
19:43 timotimo i'm locked out of my vhost thingie
19:43 retupmoca FROGGS: can you export a (Buf $data --> Buf) method/sub?
19:44 retupmoca the only exported one right now is Str --> Str
19:45 FROGGS retupmoca: I have suck-ish internet here, can you send a pull request to my fork?
19:45 retupmoca FROGGS: ack
19:46 FROGGS very nice :o)
19:51 zakharyas joined #perl6
19:51 retupmoca FROGGS: https://github.com/FROGGS/perl6-digest-md5/pull/1
19:52 jnthn bah, my attempt to run all the module tests failed 'cus I typo'd languages...
19:52 FROGGS O.o
19:52 FROGGS typo--
19:53 timotimo huh?
19:54 jnthn timotimo: Am taking a look how we are for a Moar star.
19:55 FROGGS is the typo about setting the PATH?
19:55 jnthn Using latest Moar
19:55 tadzik "Memory usage building Firefox with debug enabled was reduced from 15GB to 3.5GB; link time from 1700 seconds to 350 seconds"
19:55 jnthn No, I ran modules-install.pl manually and put a wrong path in it.
19:55 tadzik GCC 4.9 is quite a thing :)
19:55 jnthn langauges :P
19:55 FROGGS because I built r-m*/r-j*/r-p* several times
19:56 jnthn FROGGS: ah, I'm just running the tests against an already built latest.
19:56 timotimo oooh
19:56 jnthn Anyway, two things have failures
19:56 timotimo because "languages" is in the path to stuff?
19:56 jnthn t/05-mock.t in DBIish
19:56 jnthn And a couple of Panda tests.
19:57 FROGGS <prefix>/install/languages/[nqp|perl6]/[bin|lib]
19:57 retupmoca jnthn: DBIish tests were passing for me on moar if I didn't precompile
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19:57 retupmoca jnthn: they start failing once precompiled, iirc
19:58 retupmoca jnthn: more specifically, they started failing once DBDish.pm6 was compiled I think
19:58 jnthn It's odd in so far as all the other DBIish tests put that one pass...
19:58 FROGGS retupmoca: I will merge that PR when I had the chance to test it on all backends (most likely until wednesday)
19:59 retupmoca jnthn: the mysql/etc tests don't actually run unless you have the right db username/pass/etc set up
19:59 retupmoca FROGGS: sounds good
20:00 jnthn retupmoca: ah.
20:00 retupmoca jnthn: once I had the mysql environment set up, some tests passed before compile and failed after (just like mock)
20:01 FROGGS jnthn: btw, panda should pass its tests when you'd do: s/$*EXECUTABLE_NAME/$*EXECUTABLE/
20:03 jnthn FROGGS: Is that a patch we need to get into Panda?
20:04 FROGGS jnthn: there is no patch yet, only https://github.com/tadzik/panda/issues/73
20:07 FROGGS jnthn: this problem got me into working on nqp-m/perl6-m binaries...
20:11 timotimo FROGGS: how does a packaged binary call out to an actual vanilla perl6 binary if it needs to, btw?
20:12 retupmoca m: say $*EXECUTABLE # like this?
20:12 camelia rakudo-moar aeda9d: OUTPUT«IO::Path</home/p6eval/​rakudo-inst-2/bin/perl6-m>␤»
20:12 FROGGS timotimo: I don not understand... why do you mean by "call out" and "vanilla perl6"?
20:13 FROGGS retupmoca: yes
20:13 FROGGS m: say $*EXECUTABLE_NAME # this is not very helpful if it is not in PATH
20:13 camelia rakudo-moar aeda9d: OUTPUT«perl6-m␤»
20:14 timotimo well, if you bundle a bunch of bytecode with a moarvm
20:14 timotimo sometimes you want to shell out to a perl6-m
20:14 timotimo the trick so far has, as far as i understand it, been to use $*EXECUTABLE_NAME or something
20:14 retupmoca FROGGS, jnthn: I can make a PR for panda with s/EXECUTABLE_NAME/EXECUTABLE/ ?
20:14 retupmoca or is it more complicated than that?
20:16 FROGGS retupmoca: I think that should do
20:16 FROGGS retupmoca: please add "#73" to the commit title
20:17 retupmoca FROGGS: will do. testing locally now
20:18 FROGGS timotimo: okay, if there is another perl6-* in PATH then you have quite a lot of choices... perl6, perl6-m, perl6-j, perl6-p
20:18 jnthn Narrowed the DBIish thing down to the methods using gather.
20:20 retupmoca FROGGS, jnthn, *: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/pull/78
20:20 FROGGS ohh, jnthn++ # blog post
20:20 retupmoca oh, and tadzik I guess ^
20:21 dalek panda: 78bb1e0 | (Andrew Egeler)++ | / (4 files):
20:21 dalek panda: s/EXECUTABLE_NAME/EXECUTABLE/ (for GH #73)
20:21 dalek panda:
20:21 dalek panda: This lets us use panda with a perl6 that isn't in the current path.
20:21 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/78bb1e0809
20:21 dalek panda: abafd49 | tadzik++ | / (4 files):
20:21 dalek panda: Merge pull request #78 from retupmoca/master
20:21 dalek panda:
20:21 dalek panda: s/EXECUTABLE_NAME/EXECUTABLE/ (for GH #73)
20:21 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/abafd49eaa
20:21 FROGGS retupmoca: there are more occourances that needs to be fixed...
20:21 retupmoca wow, that was fast
20:21 tadzik I was looking :P
20:21 tadzik retupmoca++
20:21 FROGGS in Panda::Builder or so at least
20:21 retupmoca FROGGS: oh? I just did a grep
20:21 FROGGS hmmm
20:23 retupmoca FROGGS: I don't see anything in Panda::Builder
20:23 FROGGS retupmoca: there are six hits
20:23 FROGGS lib/Panda/Builder.pm:                shell("$*EXECUTABLE --target={comptarget} "
20:23 FROGGS lib/Panda/Tester.pm:                my $c = "$prove-command -e $*EXECUTABLE -r t/";
20:24 FROGGS that is my local stuff
20:24 retupmoca yeah, but that's fine
20:24 zakharyas1 joined #perl6
20:24 retupmoca we're changing *to* EXECUTABLE, right?
20:25 FROGGS yes
20:25 retupmoca FROGGS: my PR changed 6 lines of EXECUTABLE_NAME to EXECUTABLE
20:25 retupmoca in 4 files
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20:27 FROGGS retupmoca: ahh, sorry
20:28 FROGGS I only saw the first file changed...
20:28 FROGGS now I see the rest
20:29 retupmoca p: say $*EXECUTABLE
20:29 camelia rakudo-parrot aeda9d: OUTPUT«IO::Path</home/p6eval​/rakudo-inst/bin/perl6-p>␤»
20:29 retupmoca FROGGS: no problem, just making sure I got it right :)
20:30 jnthn wtf, the DBIish issue seems to be something involving precomp and the while something -> @foo { } construct
20:33 jnthn phew, golfed it to 15 line module.
20:37 jnthn And now https://gist.github.com/jnthn/52ca22e3b375e160b780
20:40 jnthn I'll bet it's gonna be QAST -> MAST mutating the tree
20:42 jnthn ah, found it
20:42 jnthn Not a darn serialization bug, for once...
20:51 PerlJam joined #perl6
20:52 FROGGS that feels like the bug that shows up for other traits as well (I remember `sub foo is hidden_from_bt`)
20:52 zakharyas1 joined #perl6
20:52 jnthn FROGGS: Not sure it's related.
20:53 jnthn FROGGS: It's specifically about the use of while ... -> $x { }, if ... -> $x { }, etc. in a role or code that runs at BEGIN time.
20:53 FROGGS ahh
20:54 FROGGS yeahm is_hidden_from_backtrace has no pointy
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21:11 dalek nqp: c12a9a1 | jnthn++ | src/vm/moar/QAST/QASTOperationsMAST.nqp:
21:11 dalek nqp: Don't ruin input QAST in pointy if/while.
21:11 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/c12a9a1977
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21:17 timotimo http://t.h8.lv/p6bench/2014-04-11-rakudo_opt.html - now with vintage 2014.03 rakudo-jvm
21:19 timotimo while_array_set and while_hash_set really make the jvm much happier
21:22 vendethiel timotimo: the jvm ?
21:23 timotimo yeah
21:23 timotimo what i meant was:
21:23 timotimo these test profitted a lot by the changes since 2014.03
21:29 timotimo these benchmarks*
21:29 retupmoca jnthn++
21:31 timotimo not terribly much else changed its performance characteristics, but jnthn is going to port some of the recent improvements to moarvm to the jvm and knowing the jvm it'll probably be pretty amazing
21:32 retupmoca jnthn: there is another precomp bug out there if you feel like working on it (it doesn't affect star)
21:32 timotimo how can it not affect star? :)
21:33 retupmoca doesn't affect the base star modules :P
21:33 jnthn retupmoca: No, I don't feel like it.
21:33 jnthn retupmoca: Maybe somebody else can.
21:34 jnthn I seem to do almost all of them...
21:34 jnthn If not, I'll get to it eventually.
21:34 jnthn timotimo: while_push got better too :)
21:34 timotimo and for_push
21:35 jnthn ah, yes
21:35 jnthn push is still awfully slow though
21:36 jnthn oh, I only improved the sub though.
21:36 jnthn Method form still needs a look
21:36 retupmoca jnthn: is the precomp code something I could understand well enough to find it?
21:37 retupmoca jnthn: and what's a good starting point to understanding precomp?
21:37 jnthn retupmoca: Well, generally golfing the thing down to a few lines of code/minimal number of files gives a good pointer.
21:38 retupmoca jnthn: I've gotten that far
21:38 jnthn retupmoca: From there, it depends on the nature of the bug. If it involves nested modules and interesting use paths, it's often a repossession related issue.
21:39 jnthn retupmoca: I hunt those by putting breakpoints or debug stuff into MVM_sc_wb_hit_obj or MVM_sc_wb_hit_st
21:39 Ulti so Promises are different processes rather than threads?
21:39 timotimo what!?
21:40 jnthn Ulti: A Promise is an object representing some asynchronous piece of work.
21:40 jnthn Ulti: That *may* involve running code on a thread.
21:40 Ulti yeah I guess I mean the implementation in MoarVM atm
21:40 timotimo well, on linux every thread is its own process, no?
21:40 jnthn Moar doesn't have a clue about promises (nor does the JVM). They're higher level than that.
21:40 timotimo wait, am i confusing things again?
21:41 Ulti I dunno, with pthreads if you do top its a single process that might say >100% CPU
21:41 jnthn timotimo: No, processes can have many threads.
21:41 timotimo oh, fair enough.
21:41 jnthn timotimo: But they get IDs too, and maybe the visualization of them is confusing.
21:41 Ulti yeah it might just be I dont get how htop is displaying this
21:41 jnthn retupmoca: serialization.c is the place that drives the overall process.
21:41 timotimo oh, htop
21:42 timotimo you can tell htop to show threads
21:42 * retupmoca goes bug-hunting, jnthn++
21:42 jnthn http://askubuntu.com/questions/145707/why-do​esnt-htop-display-the-same-processes-as-top
21:43 jnthn Ulti: Processes and threads are certainly different. Threads share a memory space within a process. Those are what Moar and the JVM use
21:43 jnthn retupmoca++
21:44 timotimo somehow i seem to recall that a thread on linux is just a process that starts out with the heap shared or something?
21:45 Ulti yeah that's why I was really confused to see it as a process
21:46 jnthn timotimo: Mebbe, but that feels like an impl detail.
21:46 geekosaur timotimo, used to be, not since 2.6 kernel series or thenabouts
21:46 timotimo right, it would be
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22:02 Ulti rm: (await do for ^10 -> $i { start { [$i, $i.is-prime] } }).grep(*[1]).map(*[0])
22:02 camelia rakudo-moar aeda9d: OUTPUT«(signal )»
22:02 Ulti rm: say (await do for ^10 -> $i { start { [$i, $i.is-prime] } }).grep(*[1]).map(*[0])
22:02 camelia rakudo-moar aeda9d: OUTPUT«(signal )2 3 5 7␤»
22:02 Ulti yay
22:03 jnthn Ulti: That signal thing is probably fixed in MoarVM HEAD also.
22:03 Ulti yeah I noticed -e with the moar backend is a bit funky on the version I'm using
22:03 jnthn Actually guess I should bump revs...
22:04 Ulti like that code will core dump
22:04 anaeem1__ joined #perl6
22:04 Ulti but is fine in the REPL
22:04 Ulti also await and start are super nice
22:05 Ulti that covers about 90% of my parallel use cases that I rely on shell tools like GNU parallel for
22:05 jnthn Ulti: Yes, the bug fixed today was an exit-time one, which explains why you don't get it in the REPL
22:05 Ulti cool
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22:06 dalek nqp: 1cf05eb | jnthn++ | tools/build/MOAR_REVISION:
22:06 dalek nqp: Bump to get Moar exit and callback fixes.
22:06 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/1cf05ebc94
22:06 Ulti jnthn++
22:07 dalek rakudo/nom: 11a6934 | jnthn++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
22:07 dalek rakudo/nom: Get NQP with Moar comp fixes, Moar fixes.
22:07 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/11a6934e48
22:07 jnthn There we go.
22:07 Ulti also the machine I'm playing with has 20 physical threads and 40 "physical" threads :)
22:07 jnthn HT?
22:08 Ulti yeah
22:08 timotimo and how many psychological threads?
22:08 Ulti one
22:08 jnthn Whoa...how fast can you spectest r-m on that beast? :)
22:08 Ulti unless I am rubbing my tummy at the same time
22:08 Ulti jnthn I haven't tried
22:08 jnthn TEST_JOBS=20 it :D
22:08 timotimo obviously immediately
22:08 Ulti at the moment a PhD student is using 10 cores and 250GB of RAM :S
22:08 jnthn oh :)
22:09 jnthn wow :)
22:09 Ulti but yeah I was thinking since we arent using this machine yet I can do some grind for you guys
22:09 woolfy joined #perl6
22:09 * jnthn has no hardware like that to hand :)
22:10 Ulti well its behind loads of university institutional guff otherwise I would give you an account ;P
22:10 jnthn :)
22:10 Ulti also the machine is called doge >:3
22:11 Ulti such compute
22:11 jnthn so cores. such RAM. wow.
22:13 Ulti but yeah maybe I can just make some way for you to poke some place and it git pulls and runs tests for you....
22:14 jnthn Well, I can run them fairly fast here too; I was just curious if parallel spectest can saturate that many cores :)
22:15 klapperl joined #perl6
22:15 Ulti well Monday all the cores are free and I can find out
22:20 Ulti I wish I was rich so I could get a 4CPU monster with the latest 15core Xeons 120 threads of execution all with shared RAM would be amazing
22:20 jnthn I imagine that costs even more than the top-rated Apple Trashcan(TM)...
22:21 rurban joined #perl6
22:24 Ulti DELL says £35k without much RAM :(
22:24 Ulti you can buy several doge for that
22:24 jnthn whoa
22:25 Ulti I imagine 4xCPU mother boards are fairly crazy to engineer
22:25 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 099a27f | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
22:25 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
22:25 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/099a27f9d8
22:26 [Coke] jvm spectest hung again
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22:38 timotimo d'oh
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22:55 jnthn 'night, #perl6
22:55 [Coke] ~~
23:06 Ulti someone might want to comment http://www.reddit.com/r/perl6/comments/22vt​kx/nativecall_should_be_more_of_a_priority/
23:12 [Coke] I wonder if pimozv hangs out on IRC.
23:14 timotimo um. nativecall does work, doesn't it?
23:14 timotimo on moar?
23:16 retupmoca I've used it to create a couple of modules, so I'm pretty sure it does
23:16 TimToady didn't jnthn++ just fix a callback bug?
23:16 timotimo he did
23:16 timotimo does moarvm pass all tests from NativeCalls test suite?
23:16 retupmoca yeah
23:17 retupmoca has for a while now, I think
23:17 retupmoca (where while is O(weeks)?)
23:17 timotimo do you have a reddit account? otherwise i'll post it after this match
23:17 * TimToady doesn't
23:29 timotimo or after the map after that
23:30 timotimo i just want to build the freshest rakudo and run the nativecall test suite just to be extra sure
23:42 tadzik hm, did anyone test zavolaj on moar on 32bits?
23:42 tadzik http://www.reddit.com/r/perl6/comments/22vtkx/n​ativecall_should_be_more_of_a_priority/cgqwdng
23:45 [Coke] "please report bugs via rakudobug, not reddit"
23:45 [Coke] sorry, not -just- reddit.
23:50 timotimo could it be that we're not supporting 32bit?
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