Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-04-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 Mouq m: X::AdHoc.new("foo").throw
00:00 camelia rakudo-moar d37353: OUTPUT«Default constructor for 'X::AdHoc' only takes named arguments␤  in method new at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:846␤  in block  at /tmp/nzFXwrAX72:1␤␤»
00:00 Mouq m: X::AdHoc.new(:payload<"foo">).throw
00:00 camelia rakudo-moar d37353: OUTPUT«"foo"␤  in block  at /tmp/nGyR99KsnZ:1␤␤»
00:00 Mouq Or that to get a backtrace
00:01 Mouq m: X::AdHoc.new(:payload<"foo">).throw; say 1
00:01 camelia rakudo-moar d37353: OUTPUT«"foo"␤  in block  at /tmp/W9htYXLS9k:1␤␤»
00:01 Mouq m: X::AdHoc.new(:payload<"foo">).fail; say 42
00:01 camelia rakudo-moar d37353: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: "foo"␤   at <unknown>:1  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-1/languages/perl6/runtime/CORE.setting.moarvm:throw:4294967295)␤ from src/gen/m-CORE.setting:12649  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-1/languages/perl6/runtime/CORE.setting.moarvm:sink:40)…»
00:01 Mouq Hm
00:01 * Mouq isn't very good at this :(
00:04 TimToady p6: CONTROL { die "oops" }; return
00:04 camelia rakudo-parrot d37353, rakudo-jvm d37353, rakudo-moar d37353: ( no output )
00:04 camelia ..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: oops␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /tmp/tmpfile line 1 (ANON @ 5) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /tmp/tmpfile line 1 (mainline @ 4) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4595 (AN…»
00:05 TimToady niecza++
00:05 TimToady that actually segfaults locally in rakudo
00:05 Mouq Wait, Rakudo has CONTROL... or at least, NQP does...
00:06 TimToady well, only r-m
00:06 TimToady (only r-m segfaults)
00:07 TimToady the others bypass the CONTROL and say Attempt to return outside of any Routine
00:07 Mouq And there are tests in Roast that presumably pass...
00:08 TimToady maybe it's a REPL thing
00:09 TimToady nope, segv's with -e too
00:09 * Mouq is distracted
00:09 * Mouq should probably sleep
00:10 jnthn Finally got the blog post done: http://6guts.wordpress.com/2014/04/17/racing-to-writeness-to-wrongness-leads/
00:10 * jnthn accidentally the whole 3000 words
00:11 Mouq jnthn++
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00:21 TimToady jnthn: did my $gerenuk := %animals; eat a <gerenuk> tag?
00:21 jnthn oh...maybe
00:22 jnthn TimToady: fixed, thanks
00:28 Mouq jnthn++, that certainly corrected my views of parallelization :)
00:29 jnthn Well, that's predicated on my sleep-deprived views on it being correct ;)
00:30 Mouq m: say [∪] await lines.map: {start { bag .words }}
00:30 jnthn oh, oops...I have to be at an important meeting in like 7 hours...
00:30 camelia rakudo-moar d37353: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
00:30 jnthn 'night
00:30 Mouq m: say [∪] lines.map: { bag .words }
00:30 Mouq 'night jnthn!
00:30 TimToady o/
00:30 camelia rakudo-moar d37353: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
00:31 TimToady and yes, that would be a pretty nifty way to write a map/reduce :)
00:34 TimToady m: say [(+)] lines.map: { bag .words }
00:34 camelia rakudo-moar d37353: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
00:34 TimToady huh, what's so hard about that?  it works locally...
00:34 Mouq Oh yeah, (+)/⊎ is what is wanted :)
00:35 TimToady m: say +lines
00:35 camelia rakudo-moar d37353: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
00:35 TimToady um...
00:35 Mouq m: .say for lines
00:35 Mouq m: 42
00:35 camelia rakudo-moar d37353: OUTPUT«(timeout)There were three men came out of the West␤Their fortunes for to try␤And these three men made a solemn vow␤John Barleycorn must die␤␤They've ploughed, they've sewn, they've harrowed him in␤Threw clouds upon his head␤And these three me…»
00:35 camelia rakudo-moar d37353: ( no output )
00:35 TimToady m: say +$*IN.lines
00:36 camelia rakudo-moar d37353: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
00:36 TimToady huh
00:36 TimToady m: say lines[*-1]
00:36 camelia rakudo-moar d37353: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
00:36 TimToady how big is that song?
00:37 Mouq 49 lines :(
00:38 TimToady that behavior seems...suboptimal...
00:38 Mouq j: say +lines
00:38 camelia rakudo-jvm d37353: OUTPUT«0␤»
00:38 TimToady p: say lines[*-1]
00:38 camelia rakudo-parrot d37353: OUTPUT«Without a little Barleycorn␤»
00:39 TimToady 0 isn't exactly manifesting correctness either
00:39 TimToady j: say lines[*-1]
00:39 Mouq p: say +lines
00:39 camelia rakudo-jvm d37353: OUTPUT«Cannot use negative index -1 on List␤  in method gist at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:12584␤  in sub say at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:13497␤  in block  at /tmp/lEbxtrre4q:1␤␤»
00:39 camelia rakudo-parrot d37353: OUTPUT«49␤»
00:39 TimToady so lines is busticated on j
00:39 Mouq j: .say for lines
00:39 camelia rakudo-jvm d37353: ( no output )
00:40 TimToady maybe the eval server is not supplying stdin correctly
00:41 TimToady works fine locally
00:42 BenGoldberg m: .chars.say for lines
00:42 TimToady [∪] works fine as long as all args are bags
00:42 camelia rakudo-moar d37353: OUTPUT«(timeout)41␤25␤37␤24␤0␤55␤26␤37␤24␤0␤40␤35␤38␤22␤0␤42␤32␤46␤19␤0␤43␤26␤42␤28␤0␤43␤28␤48␤30␤0␤47␤26␤33␤23␤0␤43␤25␤48␤38␤0␤42␤28␤42␤32␤0␤35␤30␤43␤27␤0␤0␤0…»
00:42 TimToady ooh
00:42 Mouq BenGoldberg++
00:43 BenGoldberg j: .chars.say for lines
00:43 camelia rakudo-jvm d37353: ( no output )
00:44 * TimToady guesses there's a non-blocking thing going on here in Moar
00:44 TimToady and eof is turning into 0 chars available
00:45 geekosaur that is pretty much what I concluded earlier
00:45 TimToady earlier++
00:46 Mouq $ perl6-j -e'say @*ARGS; .say for ([⊎] await @*ARGS».path.map: {start { bag .&slurp.words } if .f}).pairs.sort(*.value)' src/core/*
00:46 geekosaur jnthn++ was poking but had no conclusions, I think libuv ate him
00:47 Mouq The last few output are, unsurprisingly, {, }, my, method, =, multi, #, if, sub...
00:49 TimToady pity » has to reconstruct the order when the .map doesn't care
00:49 TimToady need some transitive race semantics there...
00:51 Mouq (of course, if I were really trying to optimize, a self-balancing tree would probably help more than parrellizing the files…)
00:51 Mouq *parallizing
00:51 Mouq I think...
00:51 Mouq *paralellizing
00:52 geekosaur parallelizing :p
00:52 * TimToady is parallelyzed with fear
00:53 * geekosaur wonders if anyone's coined that word to describe failed parallelization...
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00:57 Mouq Just tried latest r-m with the one-liner above; The first say prints and then perl6 segfaults :(
00:58 * Mouq is going to try sleeping, though
00:58 Mouq o/ #perl6
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01:38 colomon panda failing tests in emmentaler?!  :(
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02:16 lue I'd've thought    parallelyzed (adj) : A multi-threaded application that is deadlocked  :)
02:17 rjbs jnthn: I really liked your post on atomicity.
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02:50 lue jnthn++ # making me realize that multithreading-ifying something involves a bit more than "put 'await do' in front of all the list-of-files loops" :)
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03:15 avuserow m: say "foo".encode("utf8"); say "foo".encode("utf8") ~~ Buf;
03:15 camelia rakudo-moar d37353: OUTPUT«Buf:0x<66 6f 6f>␤False␤»
03:15 avuserow m: say "foo".encode("utf8"); say "foo".encode("utf8").WHAT;
03:15 camelia rakudo-moar d37353: OUTPUT«Buf:0x<66 6f 6f>␤(utf8)␤»
03:15 * avuserow is a bit puzzled
03:16 colomon how so?
03:17 colomon oh, the last bit there?
03:17 avuserow admittedly I know very little about this but the Str docs imply that encoding returns something Buf-like?
03:17 avuserow looking at http://doc.perl6.org/type/Str#encode
03:18 colomon m: say utf8 ~~ Buf
03:18 camelia rakudo-moar d37353: OUTPUT«False␤»
03:19 avuserow I'm deep into yak shaving. Trying to fix up the openssl bindings so I can have a working MD5 on MoarVM so I can play with random web APIs that require it
03:20 colomon avuserow: I'm looking at the source, this looks like a weird Rakudo thing.  (Unless it's a spec glitch.)
03:20 colomon utf8 is a Blob[uint8]
03:20 colomon Buf is also a Blob[uint8]
03:21 avuserow ah so maybe Blob is an okay type
03:21 lue ? I thought Buf was supposed to be a role, which would imply no parameterization
03:21 colomon errr… parameterized roles are a thing, and Buf is one
03:21 lue (no concrete-ifying of parameters, I should say)
03:21 colomon role Buf[::T = uint8] does Blob[T]
03:22 avuserow maybe I could just add some code to NativeCall to turn Bufs into CArray[uint8]... No clue how right that seems though.
03:22 colomon Or perhaps the real question here is why Blob.gist returns a string starting with "Buf"
03:23 colomon avuserow: unfortunately I think most of the people with NativeCall experience are on European time, and so are asleep right now.
03:23 colomon afk # time for bed
03:24 avuserow thanks for your help colomon  :)
03:24 lue ♞ colomon o/
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04:01 [Coke] lizmat: I had no idea what the part(s) was. ensemble player; 5-ish different bits, 2 of which with a page or so of dialog. most surprising, however, was finding out I need to go in for the fight coach so someone can punch me in the head and then kick me in the face safely.
04:01 [Coke] ... beats writing cold fusion, though.
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06:27 masak good normal-tz morning, #perl6
06:29 raydiak \o
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06:34 jnthn o/ #perl6
06:34 jnthn urgh, morning
06:35 jnthn lue++ # parallelyzed
06:37 raydiak morning jnthn
06:39 jnthn avuserow: A utf8 is a blob8 rather than a buf8 because a buf8 would be mutable, and the mutation might cause it to become invalid utf8, which is what the utf8 type is meant to imply it ain't
06:39 jnthn o/ raydiak
06:45 avuserow okay, that makes sense. I'm guessing that it makes the most sense to have algorithms like SHA and CRC32 take input as Blobs rather than Bufs or Strings in that case...
06:47 jnthn r: say Buf ~~ Blob
06:47 camelia rakudo-parrot d37353, rakudo-jvm d37353, rakudo-moar d37353: OUTPUT«True␤»
06:47 jnthn So yes, doing so doesn't harm the ability to take a Buf.
06:49 avuserow well, some of them do things like: multi sub foo(Blob $b) {foo($b.decode("utf8"));}; multi sub foo(Str $s) { # do actual work };
06:49 avuserow and for these algorithms, it seems like it'd be better to do the work in the one that takes the blob instead of the string
06:49 jnthn For the ones you just described, yes, certainly.
06:54 raiph joined #perl6
06:56 jnthn commute &
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07:08 dalek Perlito: 6ead80f | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | src5/lib/Perlito5/Grammar/Regex5.pm:
07:08 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - Perlito5::Grammar::Regex5 wip
07:08 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/commit/6ead80f8fa
07:08 Ven jnthn++ # blag
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07:22 moritz jnthn: "Having spent a bunch of years working with and teaching about parallel, asynchronous, and parallel programming outside of the Perl world" -- I guess the duplication of 'parallel' isn't intentional
07:22 raydiak parallel parallels?
07:26 dmol joined #perl6
07:26 moritz sounds like Euclidean Geometry to me :-)
07:28 moritz jnthn++ # blog
07:29 FROGGS ohh, I haz to read...
07:29 FROGGS gmorning @all
07:30 raydiak \o FROGGS
07:30 Ven o/, *
07:31 raydiak hi Ven
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07:49 FROGGS jnthn: typo? CPS (Communicating Sequential Processes)
07:54 lizmat good *, #perl6!
07:54 lizmat and jnthn++ for an excellent, excellent blog post  :-)
08:03 FROGGS if I also do jnthn++, do we have to lock him (away)?
08:03 moritz FROGGS: nah, the IRC servers serialize the lines that can contain ++
08:06 tadzik oh, the honk-manatee https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-33i2b17nc
08:09 sergot_ morning! o/
08:09 tadzik o/
08:10 lizmat o/
08:10 Ven (when I git pull rakudo, I only need to make, right ?)
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08:11 moritz Ven: if Configure.pl or something in tools/build/ changes, you need to reconfigure too
08:11 Ven noted, thanks
08:16 Ven (actually, `make` never failed, it was `make install`)
08:19 lizmat does an immediate "make install" again work?
08:19 Ven Can't test with that user, I'll need the server owner to try it :p
08:20 * Ven will fix his mess now
08:21 Ven do I just add `is copy` for the 4 params (2 for sub + 2 for the method) or should I go with another strategy ?
08:22 moritz adding 'is copy' should be fine (just test it before you submit the pull request :-)
08:23 * Ven can do that now
08:27 * Ven ... expect that github broke down
08:27 lizmat afk for a few hours&
08:28 thou joined #perl6
08:28 nwc10 ooh, they're talking about PERL: https://github.com/blog/1819-write-line-notes-from-your-phone
08:29 Ven Hahaha, that's some nice irony
08:32 * nwc10 wonders how hard it would be to port Acme::Inline::PERL to Perl 6
08:32 tadzik they are?
08:33 * nwc10 is joking. They don't mention any particular programming language
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08:38 raiph jnthn++ # I've always loved your posts but this is my favorite so far
08:39 raiph (I mean your latest blog post, in case it isn't obvious!)
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09:21 Ulti btw have you guys seen Untrusted? http://alexnisnevich.github.io/untrusted/
09:31 raydiak wow, that's...pretty awesome
09:34 sergot Ulti++
09:48 * Ven didn't manage to get past lv21 ...
09:51 * raydiak is up to 7 so far
09:52 raydiak eh, just realized the time...g'night #perl6
09:54 Ulti run 9 I waisted a lot of time
09:54 Ulti night raydiak
10:17 * masak .oO( hula hoops are a big waiste of time )
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10:31 * Ven spent 15 minutes trying to find the bug before he realized the issue with "$" in a linuxterm
10:32 telex joined #perl6
10:34 Ven https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/264
10:35 Ven Which makes me ask, now that I have a perl6 install and I'm not totally blind anymore, are there low-hanging fruits ?
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10:54 dalek rakudo/nom: 88a084e | Nami-Doc++ | src/core/IO.pm:
10:54 dalek rakudo/nom: Add , fix open :rw
10:54 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/88a084ebbd
10:54 dalek rakudo/nom: a4e5caa | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/core/IO.pm:
10:54 dalek rakudo/nom: Merge pull request #264 from Nami-Doc/fix-open-rw
10:54 dalek rakudo/nom:
10:54 dalek rakudo/nom: Add , fix open :rw
10:54 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a4e5caa801
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10:56 FROGGS Ven: perhaps RT reveals some LHFs?
10:57 Ven FROGGS: marked as "easy" ?
10:57 Ven eeh. Possible cross-site request forgery hehe
10:57 FROGGS I don't think that it is common practice to mark the tickets that way here...
10:57 FROGGS :/
10:58 * Ven can't actually understand how rt.perl works
10:58 Ven or do you *need* an account to browse stuff ?
10:59 FROGGS Ven: if you want to get way deeper into the rabbit hole you might enjoy: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/docs/ROADMAP
10:59 FROGGS Ven: no, you can read tickets without an account
10:59 Ven Ok, "use the public interface"
10:59 FROGGS about that roadmap, even when there is a nick assigned to something, it does not mean that the guy/girl is really working on that already
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11:12 jnthn afternoon o/
11:14 masak \o
11:14 nwc10 danger, UGT violation. Imposter detected :-)
11:14 lizmat after* all!
11:16 FROGGS *g*
11:18 jnthn hey, I had my UGT morning earlier :P
11:22 rindolf jnthn: afternoon.
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11:32 dalek Perlito: f13f6cf | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (2 files):
11:32 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - Perlito5::Grammar::Regex5 wip
11:32 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/commit/f13f6cff86
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11:43 jnthn moritz, FROGGS: blog typos fixed, thanks!
11:44 FROGGS jnthn++ # that is a very ncie article btw
11:45 jnthn FROGGS: Thanks, hope it was informative :)
11:46 colomon jnthn:  https://gist.github.com/colomon/10976822  ;)
11:46 FROGGS it is... not only the fact about the cpu cycles when it comes to shared memory
11:46 FROGGS also the part about the implicit locks and about the solution at the end...
11:46 jnthn colomon: Cute!!
11:46 colomon good bit slower, I fear
11:47 jnthn colomon: Well, also, keeping the code simple keeps the post accessible to those less 6-skilled. :)
11:47 colomon sure
11:47 Ven joined #perl6
11:48 FROGGS Rakudo has been built and installed. # (r-m* that is)
11:51 Ven r: my ($a is readonly) = 5; say $a; $a = 42; say $a
11:52 camelia rakudo-jvm a4e5ca: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
11:52 camelia ..rakudo-parrot a4e5ca, rakudo-moar a4e5ca: OUTPUT«5␤42␤»
11:52 Ven What are "logical cascades" ?
11:54 Ven or "coercion types" ?
11:55 moritz iirc S02 defines coercion types
11:56 moritz and for logical cascades, look for "andthen" and "orelse" in S03
11:56 Ven To coerce your return value, use a coercion type:       sub get_pet() returns Pet(Animal) {...}  # coerce any Animal to Pet
11:56 Ven (do we have any reason to keep `returns` around, with `of` ?)
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12:05 dalek Perlito: 89b7aa0 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | src5/lib/Perlito5/Grammar/Regex5.pm:
12:05 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - Perlito5::Grammar::Regex5 wip
12:05 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/commit/89b7aa0491
12:06 jnthn .tell masak MoarVM release done, and at http://www.moarvm.org/releases/MoarVM-2014.04.tar.gz
12:06 yoleaux jnthn: I'll pass your message to masak.
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12:22 Ven Is there already modules that exposes grammars/roles with regexes for quoted strings ?
12:23 FROGGS Ven: what would be the use case?
12:24 Ven FROGGS: grammars dealing with quoted strings ?
12:24 Ven instead of copy-pasting these lines :o
12:25 FROGGS hmmm, I still do not seem to get it
12:25 Ven FROGGS: I mean, rules to parse ``
12:25 Ven 'hey\' you'
12:25 Ven (and the double-quoted equivalent)
12:26 FROGGS well, rakudo has parsers for quoting languages of course
12:26 Ven JSON::Tiny uses its own regexes for parsing "" quoted strings
12:26 FROGGS yes, because JSON has its own understanding what a q/qq-string is
12:27 Ven yeah, and I'd like to get the same rules in a module
12:27 Ven for "simple, stupid" quoted strings
12:27 FROGGS so, you want to expose a grammar that would let one specify its own set of escape sequences... something like that?
12:28 Ven Not really escape sentences, really, just rules to parse correctly "a\"b\\"
12:31 FROGGS Ven: there is nothing like that out there atm AFAIK
12:33 Ven Hmm, can we call p6 grammars "parser combinators" ?
12:33 lizmat Ven: wrt to my $a is readonly:
12:33 lizmat afaik the problem is currently that if we *do* mark $a as read-only, the assignment "=5" will not work
12:34 FROGGS m: grammar QString { token number { 23 } }; say "1234" ~~ /<QString::number>/
12:34 camelia rakudo-moar a4e5ca: OUTPUT«「23」␤ QString::number => 「23」␤␤»
12:34 lizmat as the marking as read-only is compile time, and the assignment is runtime
12:34 FROGGS would perhaps be nice to have a collection of patterns for mail addresses and stuff
12:34 Ven FROGGS: yeah, exactly :_
12:34 lizmat Regexp::Common comes to mind ;-)
12:34 retupmoca perl6-debug is spitting out 'Unknown compilation input 'optimize'' anytime I try to use it on anything that's loading .pm6 files o.O
12:34 * Ven can't quite :) on qwerty keyboards
12:37 tadzik :) is easier on colemak, 'cos the keys are next to each other
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12:39 masak good afternoon, dear #perl6ers.
12:39 yoleaux 12:06Z <jnthn> masak: MoarVM release done, and at http://www.moarvm.org/releases/MoarVM-2014.04.tar.gz
12:39 lizmat masak o/
12:39 lizmat and how's your jetlag?
12:39 masak excellent :>
12:39 masak I'll be away for a few whiles, but I'll be doing some Rakudo release management later today.
12:40 masak stand by for a stunning release.
12:40 masak &
12:40 Rounin Hm... The QWERTY keyboard apparently favours lefthanded typers, though, and I've found it's the easiest one to type "David" on
12:40 Rounin Important qualities for a keyboard layout
12:41 Rounin (My name is David)
12:41 tadzik Hello David
12:41 Rounin Hello um
12:41 Rounin hi
12:41 tadzik yes, tadzik is my name
12:41 Rounin Oh :D
12:41 Rounin Well, then hello, Tadzik :D
12:41 tadzik makes it easy to remember now that my irc nick is the same
12:42 Rounin Very true
12:42 Rounin Wow, if you love one-handed typing, "tadzik" is pretty easy on QWERTY :P
12:42 Rounin "tadz" + "ik"
12:43 Rounin We have an ISP called "Powertech"... "po" "wert" "e" "c" "h"
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12:48 Ven I just noticed `is copy` in my command got executed -.-
12:50 Ven s/command/commit message/
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13:00 * moritz knows folks who only use passwords that can be typed one-handed
13:03 Juerd Every password can be typed one-handed.
13:03 Juerd There's a shift key on either side of the keyboard :P
13:04 huf if you can type it without your left hand, and type it without your right hand
13:04 huf surely you can type it with no hands
13:05 Juerd Nose typing is hard
13:05 huf yeah, i know that too
13:07 Juerd http://typing-speed-test.aoeu.eu/  # 4 cpm
13:10 Ven Your score: 492 CPM (that is 98 WPM) # I can't do that on a Mac qwerty keyboard
13:10 * Ven will try with his nose
13:12 Ven Juerd: Your score: 46 CPM (that is 9 WPM) ! HA !
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13:18 Rounin :D
13:23 timotimo what a useful skill
13:24 tadzik Look, ma, no hands!
13:26 tadzik it seems like Y::E organizers want speakers to have slides ready almost 2 months ahead
13:26 tadzik crazy :o
13:28 Juerd Ven: Impressive.
13:29 Juerd tadzik: Solution: present without slides. Do live programming.
13:31 tadzik :)
13:31 tadzik that actually sounds more reasonable to me than doing slides more than 48 hours before the talk :D
13:32 tadzik in other news: yapc::na is expensive and call for papers is over :|
13:34 FROGGS jnthn: that is the current state of r* https://gist.github.com/FROGGS/0ea5537eb675588baaa2
13:35 timotimo no problems on moar \o/
13:37 timotimo seems like it'll be time for moar to smoke all modules as well
13:37 * tadzik wonders if task::star is up to date
13:40 FROGGS r: say Buf:0x<0c 30 03 26 74 22 a3 03>.decode('UTF-16')
13:40 camelia rakudo-parrot a4e5ca, rakudo-jvm a4e5ca, rakudo-moar a4e5ca: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤------> [32msay Buf[33mâ��[31m:0x<0c 30 03 26 74 22 a3 03>.decode('UTF[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤  â€¦Â»
13:41 moritz m: say Buf.new(<0c 30 03 26 74 22 a3 03>.map({ :16($_) })).decode('UTF-16')
13:41 camelia rakudo-moar a4e5ca: OUTPUT«「☃≴Σ␤»
13:41 FROGGS j: say Buf.new(<0c 30 03 26 74 22 a3 03>.map({ :16($_) })).decode('UTF-16')
13:41 camelia rakudo-jvm a4e5ca: OUTPUT«0&t"£␤»
13:41 FROGGS p: say Buf.new(<0c 30 03 26 74 22 a3 03>.map({ :16($_) })).decode('UTF-16')
13:41 camelia rakudo-parrot a4e5ca: OUTPUT«「☃≴Σ␤»
13:42 jnthn FROGGS: Hmm, thanks.
13:47 FROGGS r: say Buf.new(0x03, 0x26).decode('UTF-16')
13:47 camelia rakudo-jvm a4e5ca: OUTPUT«&␤»
13:47 camelia ..rakudo-parrot a4e5ca, rakudo-moar a4e5ca: OUTPUT«☃␤»
13:48 FROGGS r: say utf8.new(0x03, 0x26).decode('UTF-8')
13:48 camelia rakudo-parrot a4e5ca, rakudo-jvm a4e5ca, rakudo-moar a4e5ca: OUTPUT«&␤»
13:53 FROGGS r: say nqp::decode(Buf.new(0x03, 0x26), 'utf16')
13:53 camelia rakudo-jvm a4e5ca: OUTPUT«&␤»
13:53 camelia ..rakudo-parrot a4e5ca, rakudo-moar a4e5ca: OUTPUT«☃␤»
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13:59 jnthn hm, 443cmp (89wpm) on my laptop keyboard :)
14:04 Ven jnthn: yeah, but what can you do with your nose :P ?
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14:09 jnthn Ven: Sneeze? :P
14:10 Ven jnthn: how much WPM/CPM is that :P ?
14:11 tadzik depends on the intensity
14:11 Ven tadzik: did we just create another PhD subject again :P ?
14:11 tadzik heheh
14:11 tadzik maybe something for my masters.. ;P
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14:12 tadzik Software Supported Selective Sneezing
14:15 masak Ven: grammars are usually not called "combinators", no. biggest reason is that they are not combinators. :P
14:17 masak a combinator is "a function whose argument is also a function". grammars are not that.
14:23 geekosaur Ven: parser combinators are a mechanism detail, not an essential part of parsing or lexing. in theory combinators are more flexible, but in practice keeping a language comprehensiblle by humans leads to highly formulaic combinators which can be folded into a framework instead
14:24 geekosaur parser generators (e.g. yacc) do that, as does perl 6 by hiding it in what amounts to a generalization of the regex framework
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14:26 masak I think the big innovation of Perl 6 grammars is to *not* talk about lexing and parsing as two different phases.
14:27 masak sometimes it is, but not always. definitely not with Perl 6 itself.
14:27 geekosaur enh, most parser combinator systems also lose that distinction
14:27 masak interesting. did not know that.
14:27 masak in fact, grammars go even further and allow declaration-y stuff to happen at parse time.
14:27 geekosaur mostly that distinction goes along with parser generators and lexer generators, and that because they tend to be distinct domain-specific languages
14:28 geekosaur there is no particular reason to separate those except efficiency; note that the rise of lex and yacc was driven specifically by the need for memory efficiency on pdp11-class machines
14:29 masak noted.
14:29 masak it's interesting to find that pattern in many parts of programming history.
14:29 geekosaur you can do lexing in yacc but the parser table will be much larger and use more working memory than the equivalent one generated by lex
14:30 geekosaur and its DSL is more painful to work with at that level
14:30 masak we used to separate things for memory efficiency, but then that concern goes away and later generations remove the separation. (like the client/server separation in CVS/SVN, removed in Git)
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14:44 cognominal I don't think parser combinators can deal easily with highly contextual grammars. Perl 6 has many mechanisms for that (slangs, dynamic variables...)
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14:50 geekosaur it depends on the combinator framework but it does require some extra work.
14:51 geekosaur note that, if you're using parsec as the example of a combinator framework, its limitations come more from the monadic underpinning; monads have a certain inflexibility that can be avoided (at the cost of a different kind of inflexibility) by using an applicative-based parser framework instead
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15:10 jnthn beer, curry &
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15:16 ajr_ Don't forget the major constraint on the size and complexity of programs; the limitations of the human brain. (E.g. magic # 7+/-2) The Unix philosophy of small programs that do one thing well contrasts with Microsoft's enormous all-embracing monoliths.
15:21 geekosaur note that in some ways that is a false dichotomy because you must also remember how to hook the little pieces together; many people have more trouble with that part and benefit from a Microsoft-style fixed framework
15:21 moritz ...until they get lost in the framework :-)
15:22 geekosaur ("useless use of cat" is arguably a symptom of this)
15:22 moritz I think the real difference is that if you look at excel, for example, you can reach many functions just by exploring the GUI
15:22 moritz and the UNIX approach lacks this explorability
15:23 geekosaur that is actually a large part of what I meant
15:23 moritz geekosaur: I actually often like "useless use of cat", because it makes data flow clearer
15:23 geekosaur the unix approach, you need to learn where all those little tools are and what they do and how to hook them together. excel can guide you through them
15:24 moritz now I wonder if it's possible to add discoverability to the UNIX approach
15:25 moritz s/if/how/
15:25 cognominal Pipe is a nice but limited form of combination.  That's probably why I jumped to Perl.
15:27 moritz well, there are two limitations
15:27 moritz one is that it only allows text
15:27 moritz powershell solves that, I believe
15:27 moritz the second is that the shell doesn't allow you to open several pipes to different process (at least I never managed to make it work)
15:28 Juerd moritz: There are shells like fish that improve discoverability a little
15:28 geekosaur you can do the multiple pipes thing but it's generally painful
15:29 geekosaur the one that works best (and is most comprehensible generally) is the >(command) / <(command) mechanism in bash and zsh
15:29 geekosaur ksh had a notion of "coprocesses" but they were difficult to keep track of
15:29 Juerd moritz: All you'd need to pipe to different processes is a forking tee(1) fork.
15:30 moritz Juerd: cmd1 | tee >(cmd2) | cmd3 ?
15:30 geekosaur zsh also has MULTIOS which is pretty powerful and flexible
15:30 Juerd moritz: More like tee -c -- cmd2
15:31 moritz Juerd: my tee doesn't have a -c option
15:31 Juerd moritz: Indeed. That's why I said "tee(1) fork"
15:32 Juerd Although it'd be easier to rewrite it in perl
15:32 Juerd Just don't call it pee
15:32 moritz tee >(cmd2) does seem to work though
15:32 Juerd But then it doesn't pipe to cmd3 anymore?
15:33 moritz why wouldn't it?
15:33 Juerd tee without a filename is just cat
15:33 moritz Juerd: >(cmd2) creates /dev/fd/42 file name
15:33 moritz so it's called with a (pseudo-virtual) file name
15:34 Juerd cat | tee >(perl -ple's/^/1: /') | perl -ple's/^/2: /'
15:34 Juerd Doesn't work for me. Only 2: prints.
15:34 moritz seems cmd3 receives the output from both cmd1 and cmd2
15:34 moritz $ echo foo | tee >(tr o ua) | tr f g
15:34 moritz goo
15:34 moritz guu
15:35 * moritz should go home
15:35 Juerd Hm, it does if I pipe to it
15:36 Juerd Hm, it does if I pipe to it with echo, but not if I pipe to it with cat?!
15:36 Juerd Oh, it buffers.
15:36 Juerd Suboptimal :)
15:36 geekosaur cat -u?
15:36 Juerd -u     (ignored)
15:37 geekosaur gnuish? they came up with a different horrible hack
15:38 geekosaur man stdbuf
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16:12 TimToady ven, lizmat: wrt "is readonly", that's why we have ::= instead, which marks readonly after binding
16:15 perigrin :::= turns it into a domino set after binding
16:15 Rotwang joined #perl6
16:15 FROGGS looks more like straciatela ice on a stick
16:18 FROGGS[mobile] joined #perl6
16:47 TimToady our treatment of failure and exceptions has become somewhat fragmented, I fear
16:47 TimToady p6: say (unlink "nosuch.file").WHAT; say $!
16:47 camelia rakudo-jvm a4e5ca: OUTPUT«(Bool)␤Nil␤»
16:47 camelia ..rakudo-parrot a4e5ca, rakudo-moar a4e5ca: OUTPUT«unlink is disallowed in restricted setting␤  in sub restricted at src/RESTRICTED.setting:2␤  in sub unlink at src/RESTRICTED.setting:6␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
16:47 camelia ..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: unlink may not be used in safe mode␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 0 (unlink @ 0) ␤  at /tmp/tmpfile line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4595 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/…»
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16:47 TimToady oh yeah, but locally I get (Bool) and Nil
16:47 TimToady no way to get an errno out of that, apparently
16:48 TimToady $! was supposed to reflect errno
16:48 TimToady and it should really be returning a failure, not Bool
16:49 ajr_ discoverability; "man man", "apropos x"
16:49 TimToady also, the out-of-bandness of $! wrt 'try' and 'orelse' is a problem currently
16:50 TimToady m: say ((try die "oops") orelse $_).WHAT
16:50 camelia rakudo-moar a4e5ca: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
16:50 TimToady that needs to capture the (X::AdHoc) somehow
16:52 * TimToady is wondering why we don't just fail from the try, instead of forcing people to rely on an out-of-band (and potentially race conditionish) $!
16:53 TimToady I suppose the issue was whether the failure was considered handled or not, but mandatory out-of-band $! is pretty smelly
16:55 TimToady contrariwise, if we decide to stick with out-of-band-ness on try, we need to make 'orelse' treat $! robustly on the LHS
16:55 TimToady set it to 'no error' before evaluating the thing on the left, and capturing $! after evaluating it
16:56 TimToady but as it is, try doesn't work with orelse correctly
16:56 TimToady s/correctly/as intended/
16:59 masak this looks interesting. http://www.greghendershott.com/fear-of-macros/index.html
17:00 masak in the HN discussion, one poster talks about "pass[ing] macros to functions". https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7601506
17:00 masak I haven't thought much about that. is that useful?
17:01 masak seems to me functions are at runtime, when (usually) most of the macros have already finished what they should do.
17:01 TimToady but we're running lots of functions and methods at compile time
17:01 masak though I guess it could actually be a BEGIN-time thing (a macro, for example) that passes a macro to a function.
17:01 masak right.
17:02 TimToady HOM!
17:02 kivutar joined #perl6
17:02 TimToady but from the ToC it looks like they're trying to get at the same sort of syntactic issues that I'm trying to get at with macros for different syntax categories
17:04 TimToady we need to be able to insert macros into any grammatical category and have correct expectations both before an dafter
17:04 * TimToady avoids making the required mention of the freudian typo, "dafter"
17:06 masak :)
17:06 TimToady and "is parsed" could be viewed through a HOP lens
17:06 masak TimToady: I'm just back from a two-week (ish) vacation (ish). by the end of it, a weird and possibly interesting alternative take to Perl 6's macros emerged from an unexpected direction.
17:07 masak TimToady: I have no name for it yet, but let's call it "control flow builder API", because it pretty much captures what I see it aiming for.
17:07 masak TimToady: I'll try to develop the idea in writing in the next few days/weeks.
17:08 TimToady well, just remember we avoid a lot of explicit HOP programming in P6 because mere mortals run away screaming
17:08 TimToady 'is parsed' is one of those not-quite-a-combinator things
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17:09 TimToady and if we're gonna turn ';' into a monad operator, we need to make sure that at least appears to be optional :)
17:11 masak sure, sure.
17:11 masak that's not where I'm heading with this. :)
17:12 masak the igniting idea was something more like "if the atomic thing is a straight sequence of statements, what's an intuitive set of combinators that give us our current set of control flow constructs?"
17:13 masak as in, what primitive operations would be needed to build control flow graphs that we can already build with Perl 6 keywords?
17:13 masak those are probably a good starting point for building custom keywords, too. maybe not a complete set, but a good start.
17:13 TimToady all without reinventing contuations?  :)
17:13 TimToady *continuations
17:14 masak I... don't know yet. that's one of the things I don't know.
17:15 masak one of the things that led me down this path was reinventing CPS (poorly). so I can't in all honestly answer "no" to that question.
17:15 TimToady well, continuations might just be one implementation technique for it
17:15 masak right.
17:15 masak you can emulate most things with a switch statement in a while loop, so should be fine :P
17:16 colomon pandabrew/bin/pandabrew panda install Shell::Command
17:16 colomon ===SORRY!===
17:16 colomon Missing or wrong version of dependency 'lib/Shell/Command.pm'
17:16 colomon :\
17:17 Rounin They implemented dependency hell... Perl 6 is going places
17:18 Rounin How about BSOD next
17:18 TimToady :D
17:18 Rounin ;)
17:18 FROGGS joined #perl6
17:19 TimToady maybe take down the world's financial infrastructure for an encore? :)
17:20 TimToady oh wait, that's a job for the SSL folks these days
17:21 FROGGS yay, looks like I fixed the jvm utf16 bug
17:21 Rounin :>
17:21 FROGGS btw, Java is odd
17:22 Rounin With regards to Unicode or just in general
17:22 FROGGS if (n % 2) { # expected Bool but got Integer?? really??
17:22 Rounin Ah yes, it requires explicit bool types
17:22 FROGGS and its understanding of unicode is like the wrong approach also :P
17:23 FROGGS but perhaps it was a good idea when they decided how to do it
17:23 TimToady well, it's at least a 20-years-out-of-date approach
17:23 Rounin I think maybe everybody thought Unicode was going to be 16 bits wide when they chose UTF-16 for Java and Windows
17:23 TimToady "16 bits should be good enough for anyone!"
17:23 Rounin I'm glad everybody else chose UTF-8 though
17:24 TimToady well, for certain values of "everybody"
17:24 Rounin Haha yes
17:26 * TimToady tends to get blank looks when he talks about Unicode in the Far East...
17:26 Rounin Every .java file should have the word "char" replaced by "DO NOT USE THIS" before compilation
17:26 Rounin And Char of course
17:26 Rounin Or whatever its boxed type is called
17:26 Rounin Character
17:26 thou joined #perl6
17:27 Rounin Haha, that's a shame... That would probably be where it's most usseful
17:27 Rounin You could talk about GB18030 instead and not mention Unicode :P
17:27 guru joined #perl6
17:28 Rounin "We convert it to uh... an internal format... before processing"
17:28 TimToady well, there's more to the Far East than just GB-land
17:28 Rounin True... And they all seem to have more than one encoding per country
17:29 Rounin EUC-KR, codepage 949.. or was it 948... Shift-JIS 1, 2, 3 and I've lost count...
17:29 Rounin One would think they'd beg for Unicode
17:31 colomon okay.  If I pandabrew rebootstrap, I can install Shell::Command and it installs successfully
17:32 Rounin \o/
17:32 colomon If I try running my code script (which does "use Shell::Command"), it fails with Missing or wrong version of dependency 'lib/Shell/Command.pm'
17:32 colomon If I try to install Shell::Command again, that process ALSO fails with Missing or wrong version of dependency 'lib/Shell/Command.pm'
17:33 Rounin Could it just be that it's searching in the wrong base directory?
17:33 Rounin It doesn't say where "lib" is in the file system
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17:36 colomon https://gist.github.com/colomon/11000133 # same command works first time, fails the second
17:43 colomon tadzik: ^^
17:45 arnsholt You know it's CS when the build system for the thesis has several layers of Makefiles
17:49 moritz makefiles that generate makfiles that generate makefiles?
17:52 TimToady sounds smarter than configures that write configures that write configures...
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17:57 arnsholt moritz: Not quite that bad (yet)
17:58 arnsholt But I do have a whole directory dedicated to the figures for a chapter, and associated scripts for generating data files and plot files
18:01 * colomon 's $work has at least one makefile that fires off a Perl script which generates another makefile...
18:02 nwc10 I'm suspicious that we shoul actually change to do that in the perl 5 core, to exploit parallel makes
18:03 nwc10 specifically for building man pages
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18:05 vendethiel FROGGS: I'm actually one in favor of "force if to take bool" :-p
18:06 TimToady well, that's what we do in P6, it's just that most everything has a Bool meaning :)
18:07 hoelzro jnthn: wonderful post
18:07 hoelzro I'm still reading it, but I'm really enjoying it =)
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18:07 vendethiel ... which I'd fix with a module (though that might break inner workings)
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18:09 tadzik colomon: please remind me an hour from now :)
18:09 colomon tadzik: I'll see what I can do
18:12 raydiak good morning #perl6
18:13 timotimo hello raydiak :)
18:13 timotimo did you have the chance to look at p6bench yet?
18:13 raydiak yes
18:13 raydiak my fork has proper "fastest" calculations
18:13 raydiak now what do I do with it?
18:13 timotimo pullrequest it and i'll merge
18:14 raydiak actually, I should test it with a larger dataset...do you want to do it, or can I d/l some data somewhere?
18:14 timotimo i can give you data, hold on
18:15 timotimo http://t.h8.lv/p6bench/timings.tar.gz
18:15 timotimo otherwise i can just pull your changes and test it locally as well
18:16 timotimo oh, another thing
18:16 timotimo i've previously tried to ensure that at least 3 data points are always available, no matter what
18:16 timotimo in the other branch
18:16 timotimo i never got it to work, though
18:17 timotimo especially for the forest fire and parse-json benchmarks this is interesting
18:18 timotimo i need to re-build a working rakudo first :)
18:20 raydiak http://cyberuniverses.com/perl6-bench/
18:20 raydiak looks like it works, at first glance
18:20 timotimo that's exactly how i had hoped it would look! :D
18:20 raydiak \o/
18:21 raydiak PR to japhb or your repo?
18:21 timotimo japhb please
18:22 timotimo i think i can delete my repository
18:22 timotimo everything that was in there has already been merged
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18:23 dalek perl6-bench: 13f386a | raydiak++ | analyze:
18:23 dalek perl6-bench: Separate "fastest" rate for each X step on plot
18:23 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/13f386a9ad
18:23 dalek perl6-bench: e51d359 | raydiak++ | analyze:
18:23 dalek perl6-bench: Re-add global fastest comparison to plot under scale fastest
18:24 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/e51d35945d
18:24 dalek perl6-bench: 489e92e | timo++ | analyze:
18:24 dalek perl6-bench: Merge pull request #6 from raydiak/master
18:24 dalek perl6-bench:
18:24 dalek perl6-bench: "Fastest" plot info improvements
18:24 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/489e92ec6e
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18:26 raydiak another issue: initially drawing all the charts on the page on a slow enough computer can freeze for long enough that it asks if I want to kill the script
18:27 timotimo oh? wow.
18:27 timotimo i have no idea how you could break that up into pieces
18:27 timotimo though
18:27 timotimo if the computer is slow enough for *that* to break, they're probably not interested in running any rakudo anyway :P
18:28 raydiak wit's my computer :P
18:28 timotimo oops :|
18:28 raydiak haha
18:30 raydiak nothing comes to mind for fixing it unless we switch to different plotting lib or don't have all the plots next to each other on the same page...guess I'll just file that away in the back of my mind for now
18:32 raydiak I was thining about having just 1 chart, and then having controls for which test(s) it shows, because that would make the merge feature work too...but in that incarnation, you wouldn't be able to just scroll down 1 page and see all the test results
18:32 timotimo aye.
18:33 raydiak why is it important to have >= 3 data points?
18:34 timotimo because it looks bad otherwise :)
18:34 timotimo also, if you can come up with something clever to get rid of spikes farther to the left, that'd be pretty cool, too :)
18:34 raydiak ?
18:35 timotimo http://t.h8.lv/p6bench/2014-04-11-rakudo_opt.html - look at for example while_empty_native for rakudo-jvm or rakudo-parrot, there's big bumps to the left
18:35 timotimo same with while_bind
18:35 timotimo and there's sometimes bumps downward, too
18:35 timotimo postwhile_nil_native has a pretty mean bump for rakudo-parrot there
18:35 timotimo and loop_empty_native for the jvm
18:36 raydiak what causes those?
18:36 * masak builds Rakudo
18:36 timotimo i suppose timing inaccuracy
18:36 timotimo hopefully not background tasks going insane :)
18:37 raydiak they seem to be bumps *up* tho?
18:37 timotimo sometimes up, sometimes down
18:38 timotimo might be errors during the "find out how long this test takes to compile and start up" time thingie
18:38 raydiak it's not run in a vm like a vps or something, is it?
18:38 timotimo o
18:38 timotimo nope, it's on my desktop computer
18:38 masak "Whenever you need to control the order of evaluation, macros are what you want." -- from the HN discussion. I like that rule of thumb.
18:38 timotimo i make a point to close as much background software as possible and then i don't touch the desktop at all any more
18:38 timotimo until it's done
18:39 raydiak well, we could throw the outliers out, but mysterious missing data points would look kinda weird too
18:45 lizmat jnthn: looking at the Supply.merge pb: it seems that with "on", the case with Supply => EnumMap is not working
18:45 masak hey, something looks/feels different with the "Stage parse:" reporting :)
18:45 sqirrel_ joined #perl6
18:46 lizmat It shows the stage while doing it
18:46 masak schweet.
18:46 lizmat this was changed some weeks ago, afaik
18:46 masak whoever++
18:47 TimToady I think we're still reporting stages that will always be 0 though
18:47 masak aye.
18:47 masak ok, let's do this.
18:47 FROGGS arnsholt++ # he did the stage print thingy
18:47 masak release process starting.
18:47 * masak throws a lever for dramatic effect
18:47 TimToady <clunk!>
18:48 lizmat ketjing!
18:49 masak looks like the last two releases were nicknamed with the .pm in their name.
18:50 masak I'm going to break that tradition, because it doesn't make much sense.
18:50 masak the tags are still .pm-less.
18:50 lizmat jnthn: if I rework SupplyOperations.zip to use the EnumMap syntax, it also fails (spectacularly, with a segfault)
18:51 rindolf joined #perl6
18:51 kaare__ joined #perl6
18:51 * lizmat hates it she couldn't get Supply.merge to work before the release
18:54 masak I hear there's another release within the next month or so, though.
18:54 dalek rakudo/nom: 8d7a505 | masak++ | docs/announce/2014.04.md:
18:54 dalek rakudo/nom: add stubbed release announcement
18:54 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8d7a505412
18:55 masak no suggestions for .pm names, I presume?
18:55 * [Coke] , after having a year long release cycle nearly at work on the last revision, is now trying to compensate by doing weekly releases.
18:56 * masak proposes "Rio"
18:56 masak if I hear no counter-proposals, that's what we're getting.
18:57 lizmat well, the other day, we had an Echt.pm meeting, the first in ~5 years  :-)
18:57 FROGGS can I ask a thing in Java what it is an instance of?
18:57 FROGGS like, without knowing it?
18:58 masak lizmat: "Echt" it is.
18:58 lizmat :-)
18:58 masak FROGGS: what are you, a pervert? :P
18:58 FROGGS :/
18:59 Rounin Hmmmmm...
18:59 masak FROGGS: obj.class, IIRC.
18:59 FROGGS I have a buf8, which is an instanceof VMArrayInstance_u8 for example
18:59 Rounin http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/Object.html#getClass%28%29
18:59 FROGGS but buf16 is not an instanceof VMArrayInstance_u16...
19:01 dalek rakudo/nom: ff24385 | masak++ | docs/announce/2014.04.md:
19:01 dalek rakudo/nom: release, I christen thee "Echt"!
19:01 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ff24385a1e
19:02 dwarring joined #perl6
19:04 masak tools/update-tai-utc.pl is still full of warnings.
19:04 [Coke] echt? seems legit.
19:04 masak I'm just going to disregard it and assume there were no leap seconds. someone correct me if that's a risky/wrong assumption.
19:04 tadzik colomon: ok, looking at it now
19:05 colomon oooo, good timing.  :)
19:05 tadzik ah, yes, known :(
19:05 colomon :(
19:05 tadzik panda should really rebuild itself when one of its dependencies are updated
19:05 tadzik I dunno if I have a ticket about it though
19:05 tadzik I can probably look at this tomorrow
19:05 colomon it's not just panda, though
19:06 colomon everything that tries to use Shell::Command is borked
19:07 colomon (not saying you can't look at it tomorrow, just that it's a bigger problem than panda being awkward
19:07 colomon )
19:08 dalek rakudo/nom: b39dd0b | masak++ | docs/announce/2014.04.md:
19:08 dalek rakudo/nom: tentative list of changes in release
19:08 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b39dd0be0e
19:08 masak as usual, it's good to have multiple pairs of eyes on this list.
19:08 masak anything missing? anything that's too trivial to include?
19:08 masak comments/suggestions welcome.
19:09 colomon tadzik: …. errr, or maybe it is just that.  After rebootstrap, I can run my script after all.  WTF?  Could have sworn that didn't work this morning.
19:10 lue masak: looked at the wp page for leap second, none yet for 2014 it seems.
19:10 tadzik colomon: well, panda depends on the old version of shell-command (old precompiled version). If you update it, the binary compatibility goes to hell and panda bails out
19:10 masak lue: thanks, buddy.
19:10 tadzik I should really fix these sort of things
19:10 FROGGS masak: there are alos jvm+nativecall fixes
19:11 colomon tadzik: but definitely if I try to install Shell::Command, it appears to work, but now Shell::Command DOESN'T work any more
19:11 lizmat masak: I would remove the Bag.xkkv
19:11 lue (according to the chart, that question doesn't matter until June 30 anyway. So unless we missed the one from June 2012 (or Dec 2008, or...), rakudo should be good.)
19:11 lizmat or spell it correctly: .kxxv  :-)
19:11 masak FROGGS: should they be in docs/ChangeLog, too?
19:11 tadzik colomon: hm, that's news
19:11 lizmat but prefer removal from announcement, as the name is still under debate
19:11 masak lizmat: understood; removing :) and fixing spelling in ChangeLog.
19:11 lizmat masak++
19:12 * vendethiel .oO( why is masak removing that smiley from the ChangeLog ? )
19:12 dalek rakudo/nom: 3b20616 | masak++ | docs/ChangeLog:
19:12 dalek rakudo/nom: fix ChangeLog typo
19:12 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3b2061666e
19:12 FROGGS masak: NativeCall is kinda important, so I would mention that NativeCall passes all its tests on jvm backend too
19:12 lizmat FROGGS++
19:12 dalek rakudo/nom: 2916bff | masak++ | docs/announce/2014.04.md:
19:12 dalek rakudo/nom: remove .xkkv from release announcement
19:12 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2916bff887
19:13 masak FROGGS: if you add it to docs/ChangeLog, I'll add it to the release announcement. deal? :)
19:13 masak I'll buy a beer to whoever fixes whatever's wrong in tools/update-tai-utc.pl.
19:14 dalek rakudo/nom: 3801758 | (Tobias Leich)++ | docs/ChangeLog:
19:14 dalek rakudo/nom: add note about NativeCall passing all its tests
19:14 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3801758357
19:14 FROGGS :o)
19:15 masak FROGGS++
19:16 kaare__ joined #perl6
19:16 dalek rakudo/nom: 3340712 | masak++ | docs/announce/2014.04.md:
19:16 dalek rakudo/nom: copy NativeCall changelog entry to release announcement
19:16 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/33407120cc
19:17 timotimo FROGGS: except moarvm 32bit
19:19 dalek rakudo/nom: a0e7e89 | masak++ | docs/announce/2014.04.md:
19:19 dalek rakudo/nom: I present to you the contributors
19:19 dalek rakudo/nom:
19:19 dalek rakudo/nom: Hoopy froods, all of them.
19:19 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a0e7e89d39
19:19 masak the release announcement is now "ready". I invite all people with eyes to review. kthx.
19:22 dalek rakudo/nom: eaece08 | masak++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
19:22 dalek rakudo/nom: append current release to end of release guide
19:22 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/eaece08b4d
19:23 masak descending into NQP release sub-process.
19:23 awwaiid y'all are invited to the DC-Baltimore Perl Workshop + Hackathon on May 3-4, btw.
19:24 segomos i saw that place on the wire
19:24 lizmat awwaiid: too bad I can't make it: too close to the NLPW  :-(
19:25 masak the rule in the NQP release guide tells me *not* to upgrade the Parrot dependency.
19:25 moritz masak: sounds correct to me
19:25 masak (it's currently 6.1.0)
19:26 dalek nqp: ccbebe3 | masak++ | tools/build/MOAR_REVISION:
19:26 dalek nqp: bump moar dep to 2014.04
19:26 dalek nqp:
19:26 dalek nqp: Thanks, jnthn++.
19:26 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/ccbebe3d7f
19:26 PerlJam Has anyone tried building against parrot 6.3.0?
19:27 vendethiel PerlJam: I tried to build rakudo with parrot yesterday. Did not go well.
19:27 moritz vendethiel: with 6.1.0 or 6.3.0?
19:27 moritz or something else entirely?
19:28 vendethiel moritz: no idea :-). Just cloned rakudo and used --gen-parrot
19:28 dalek nqp: bdb3259 | masak++ | VERSION:
19:28 dalek nqp: bump VERSION to 2014.04
19:28 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/bdb3259a44
19:28 moritz vendethiel: that'll be 6.1.0
19:28 vendethiel (I cloned it literally 1 minute ago)
19:28 vendethiel (I mean, 1 minute ago yesterday before building)
19:30 timotimo i ought to contribute more so i move up on that list again :P
19:34 colomon "NativeCall passes all its tests on jvm backend too"?!!! \o/
19:34 lue I currently have 6.2.0, IIRC
19:35 lizmat timotimo: perhaps the author order logic should include MoarVM commits as well
19:36 lizmat that would put me lower on the list for sure  :-)
19:38 masak um. problem.
19:38 masak https://gist.github.com/masak/11006944
19:38 masak halp.
19:39 lizmat doesn't ring a bell with me  :-(
19:39 FROGGS install something that provides "jar"?
19:39 masak I'm on Mint. what should I install?
19:39 masak is this documented somewhere?
19:39 FROGGS dunno, type "jar" and look for the suggestions?
19:40 masak I have *javac*; how can I not have *jar*?
19:40 FROGGS it is something about java archives
19:40 FROGGS I dunno
19:40 masak does `default-jdk` sound good?
19:41 FROGGS I'd say so
19:42 masak installing.
19:43 * TimToady doesn't remember what he installed on mint
19:44 masak yeah, now it works.
19:44 masak FROGGS++
19:44 TimToady which reminds me I was gonna upgrade to Mint 16
19:45 FROGGS pheeew
19:45 TimToady since 15 isn't sending out patches any more (*cough* openssl *cough*)
19:45 lue TimToady: OpenSSL is preventing them from sending Mint 15 patches‽ I had no idea the bug was that serious :)
19:46 TimToady though seems a little silly when 17 is coming out so soon
19:50 perigrin joined #perl6
19:51 TimToady lue: I suppose that depends on whether they're using https to fetch the patches...
19:58 thou r: say $*OUT.t ?? 'yes' !! 'no'
19:59 camelia rakudo-moar b39dd0: OUTPUT«Cannot find method 'isatty': no method cache and no .^find_method␤  in method t at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:13750␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
19:59 camelia ..rakudo-jvm b39dd0: OUTPUT«No such method 'isatty' for invocant of type 'BOOTIO'␤  in method t at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:13693␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
19:59 camelia ..rakudo-parrot b39dd0: OUTPUT«no␤»
19:59 gdey joined #perl6
20:02 masak building NQP. taking a loooong time.
20:08 kurahaupo joined #perl6
20:08 TimToady .oO(masak needs a stage coach)
20:10 lue TimToady: ooc, do you have any objections/concerns to the number literals section I added to S15 recently?
20:11 TimToady well, some of it seems like a solution looking for a problem
20:12 TimToady circled number as big digits seems to fall into that category just a bit
20:13 lue TimToady: agreed, though that mainly comes from wanting to use a general "integral Number Value" rule to decide what digits are.
20:13 [Coke] http://perlcabal.org/syn/S15.html - 404
20:13 [Coke] What's the blocker on getting that rendering?
20:14 timotimo TimToady: only the server side of HTTPS connections are vulnerable i thought?
20:14 lue (though whether :radix<> should support radices > 36 is of course debatable, and that's the only place where ㊿ would appear)
20:14 lue [Coke]: I'm working on the replacement for the current synopsis generator, which is what's needed to automate generation of S15.
20:15 TimToady it doesn't really seem to buy much over the current :radix[] notation
20:15 [Coke] can we not show the link to the 404 in the meantime?
20:15 retupmoca timotimo: if the client is using a bad version of openssl, it's vulnerable as well
20:15 timotimo oh crap
20:15 timotimo if the server is malevolent?
20:16 timotimo i have an older mint, too
20:16 TimToady timotimo: and I run a web server too
20:16 timotimo i wanted to wait for a new hard drive to arrive so i can have a fresh installation and the old one for disaster recovery
20:18 TimToady though I'm actually more worried about my DSL router, which uses https to program it, sign
20:18 TimToady *sigh even
20:18 lue TimToady: does Unicode define what characters belong to certain digit ranges? (E.g. 0..9 is arabic, ߀..߉ is NKo ...)
20:19 TimToady it distinguished valid decimal digits from other numeric values
20:19 TimToady or if you mean which block they're in, you can do that too
20:20 TimToady m: say uniprop('߉', 'block')
20:20 camelia rakudo-moar b39dd0: OUTPUT«NKo␤»
20:20 lue I don't think there are any non-decimal digit ranges, right?
20:20 TimToady nope
20:20 TimToady I mean, yup
20:21 * masak just pushed NQP tag 2014.04
20:21 TimToady m: say uniprop('߉', 'decimal')
20:21 camelia rakudo-moar b39dd0: OUTPUT«Decimal␤»
20:22 TimToady m: say unimatch('߉', 'decimal')
20:22 camelia rakudo-moar b39dd0: OUTPUT«True␤»
20:22 TimToady m: say unimatch('Ⅵ', 'decimal')
20:22 camelia rakudo-moar b39dd0: OUTPUT«False␤»
20:23 masak I don't have the proper private ssh key on this computer it turns out. ++someone is welcome to put http://masak.org/carl/tmp/nqp-2014.04.tar.gz in the right place. (on rakudo@rakudo.org:public_html/downloads/nqp/ )
20:23 gtodd joined #perl6
20:23 lue The rule could change from "integral NV" to "Category Nd", though that leaves out certain 0..9,10,20,30,... sets in No.
20:25 PerlJam masak: done.
20:26 timotimo raydiak: when will you have time free for perl6-bench again?
20:27 lue ( :51<㊿⑫③> is a cool trick, but that's about it, so I don't mind losing it and letting a module implement it :) . )
20:27 masak PerlJam: thank you.
20:27 masak this concludes the NQP release sub-process.
20:27 masak back to Rakudo's.
20:27 [Coke] that's not a cool trick, it's unreadable.
20:28 lue [Coke]: that's clearly :51[50, 12, 3] in Unicode Form™. :)
20:28 [Coke] would the literals allow pulling digits from different blocks together, like: 12③ == 123 ?
20:28 timotimo it looks pretty garbled in my terminal :P
20:28 flussence .oO( weird how I've got fonts to display ㊿ and ③ in my terminal, but not ⑫... )
20:29 lue [Coke]: that's a natural consequence of Unicode not providing explicit numeric ranges (even if/when the spec switches to a "Nd category" rule, that'll still be possible.)
20:30 masak +1 on losing that feature and letting a module implement it
20:30 [Coke] lue, the 12③ thing? I would say we wouldn't want to allow that sort of thing
20:31 dalek rakudo/nom: 6e22eff | masak++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
20:31 dalek rakudo/nom: [release] bump NQP revision
20:31 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6e22effb38
20:31 dalek rakudo/nom: 6f0b1d3 | masak++ | VERSION:
20:31 dalek rakudo/nom: [release] bump VERSION
20:31 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6f0b1d37a3
20:32 * lue wonders if Unicode would implement numeric ranges as an explicit property, rather than something you have to figure out manually.
20:33 gtodd Hello perl6 ... :-)
20:34 vendethiel joined #perl6
20:34 lue [Coke]: that would involve constructing the ranges ourselves, like we do for .succ/.pred, but in the grammar instead of the setting. I'd much rather just let people mix them together, with the understanding that you might confuse people.
20:34 gtodd Q: about a 5-ism ... how to translate or think about it in perl6 ...
20:34 gtodd $num="2947341"; ($lowest_odd) = sort $num =~ /[13579]/g
20:35 masak gtodd! \o/
20:35 PerlJam gtodd: $lowest_odd = 1;  # there!  ;)
20:35 gtodd $lowest_odd ends up as 1 ... this may be a form of context abuse
20:35 masak gtodd: you might want to have a look at .comb
20:36 masak r: $num = "2947341"; say for $num.comb(/<[13579]>/)
20:36 masak r: $num = "2947341"; .say for $num.comb(/<[13579]>/)
20:36 gtodd masak: it works on evens and when the lowest value is > 1 too ;-)
20:36 gtodd oh cool
20:36 camelia rakudo-parrot eaece0, rakudo-jvm eaece0, rakudo-moar eaece0: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Variable '$num' is not declaredâ�¤at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤------> [32m$num[33mâ��[31m = "2947341"; say for $num.comb(/<[13579[0mâ�¤    expecting an…»
20:36 camelia rakudo-parrot eaece0, rakudo-jvm eaece0, rakudo-moar eaece0: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Variable '$num' is not declaredâ�¤at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤------> [32m$num[33mâ��[31m = "2947341"; .say for $num.comb(/<[1357[0mâ�¤    expecting an…»
20:36 masak r: my $num = "2947341"; .say for $num.comb(/<[13579]>/)
20:36 camelia rakudo-parrot eaece0, rakudo-jvm eaece0, rakudo-moar eaece0: OUTPUT«9␤7␤3␤1␤»
20:36 gtodd I have the perfect stackoverflow codegofl entry for this :-D
20:36 masak :)
20:37 gtodd I was amazed to see perl6 there and looking *very* spiffy and readable !
20:37 PerlJam But don't use sort to find the smallest, just use .min
20:38 gtodd hmm yes strings are objects
20:38 timotimo r: .say for "2947341" ~~ m:ex/(\d+) { $0 !%% 2 }/
20:38 camelia rakudo-parrot eaece0, rakudo-jvm eaece0, rakudo-moar eaece0: OUTPUT«False␤»
20:38 timotimo shouldn't that give me all odd numbers that are in that string?
20:38 gtodd r:  my$x="343277";say $x;if $x~~m/2|4|6|8/ {say "$/,",$/.from+1} else {say "-1,0"}
20:39 camelia rakudo-parrot eaece0, rakudo-jvm eaece0, rakudo-moar eaece0: OUTPUT«343277␤4,2␤»
20:39 gtodd that is what I want to fix :-)
20:39 timotimo like 29 2947 29473 2947341 47 473 47341 ... ?
20:42 vendethiel joined #perl6
20:43 vendethiel timotimo: with that +; it should check if the whole is odd, no ?
20:43 timotimo yes
20:43 timotimo but it should backtrace and try from every position, because i put :ex there
20:43 vendethiel r: .say for "2947341" ~~ m:ex/[(\d) { $0 !%% 2 }]+/
20:43 camelia rakudo-parrot eaece0, rakudo-jvm eaece0, rakudo-moar eaece0: OUTPUT«False␤»
20:44 * vendethiel can't perl6 anyway
20:45 lue r: say "abcde" ~~ m:ex/<alpha>+/
20:45 camelia rakudo-parrot eaece0, rakudo-jvm eaece0, rakudo-moar eaece0: OUTPUT«False␤»
20:45 timotimo did we break that?
20:45 timotimo if so, why didn't the tests catch it?
20:45 PerlJam looks like it's broken to me.
20:45 lue I'm not sure if :ex and/or :ov ever worked in rakudo, but I could be wrong.
20:46 timotimo r: .say for "foobarbaz" ~~ m:i:ex/<alpha>+/
20:46 camelia rakudo-parrot eaece0, rakudo-jvm eaece0, rakudo-moar eaece0: OUTPUT«False␤»
20:46 timotimo r: .say for "foobarbaz" ~~ m:i/<alpha>+/
20:46 camelia rakudo-parrot eaece0, rakudo-jvm eaece0, rakudo-moar eaece0: OUTPUT«「foobarbaz」␤ alpha => 「f」␤ alpha => 「o」␤ alpha => 「o」␤ alpha => 「b」␤ alpha => 「a」␤ alpha => 「r」␤ alpha => 「b」␤ alpha => 「a」␤ alpha => 「z」␤␤»
20:46 timotimo r: .say for "foobarbaz" ~~ m:exhaustive/<alpha>+/
20:46 camelia rakudo-parrot eaece0, rakudo-jvm eaece0, rakudo-moar eaece0: OUTPUT«False␤»
20:46 timotimo r: .say for "foobarbaz" ~~ m:overlap/<alpha>+/
20:46 camelia rakudo-parrot eaece0, rakudo-jvm eaece0, rakudo-moar eaece0: OUTPUT«False␤»
20:46 timotimo o_O
20:47 timotimo https://github.com/perl6/roast/blob/master/S05-modifier/exhaustive.t#L9-L150 - well, we have this
20:47 FROGGS masak: is it allowed to push to nom again?
20:47 timotimo it's not in our spectest.data
20:48 dalek roast: cbeb43b | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S17-concurrency/supply.t:
20:48 dalek roast: Tests Supply.map; Supply.merge breaks still
20:48 dalek roast:
20:48 dalek roast: But found the reason.  But no fix yet :-(
20:48 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/cbeb43be20
20:49 FROGGS err, actually I want to push to nqp
20:49 timotimo has the release been tagged the right way this time?
20:49 masak FROGGS: allowed to push to either, but you won't make the release.
20:49 masak timotimo: please be more specific?
20:50 timotimo i think -a is the flag we want?
20:50 masak timotimo: -m implies -a
20:50 FROGGS masak: that is the point, I do not want to have it in the current release
20:50 timotimo there was something about the tags we've been making recently that was causing the tag not to properly work with "git describe" or something?
20:50 masak timotimo: so if you just follow the instructions in the release guide, everything should be fine.
20:50 masak timotimo: git describe by default doesn't see lightweight tags.
20:50 timotimo unfortunately i don't really remember :(
20:51 masak man, it's good to have Git at my fingertips. :)
20:51 masak $dayjob++
20:51 timotimo ah, so lightweight was the wrong thing and you're already doing it right if you have -m?
20:51 masak timotimo: an annotated tag is created by either -a, -m, or -s
20:51 masak timotimo: release guide says to use -m, which is a bit meaningless in our case, but doesn't hurt.
20:51 timotimo fair enough
20:51 masak timotimo: I used it (for NQP).
20:51 masak and will, for Rakudo.
20:52 masak still building from realclean.
20:52 timotimo good :)
20:53 FROGGS and I also see the tags for nqp+moar
20:53 LLamaRider joined #perl6
20:53 masak hm, the release guides even write -a explicitly. though that's redundant when -m is there.
20:53 vendethiel m: [*]1..3
20:53 camelia rakudo-moar eaece0: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/jUgWp0Wgoyâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/jUgWp0Wgoy:1â�¤------> [32m[*][33mâ��[31m1..3[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        postfixâ�¤        infix stopperâ�¤        inf…»
20:53 FROGGS redundant is fine for releases me thinks
20:53 PerlJam redundancy++ :)
20:54 masak agreed. it doesn't hurt.
20:54 vendethiel m: say'foo'
20:54 camelia rakudo-moar eaece0: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/j_BXIajAeaâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/j_BXIajAea:1â�¤------> [32msay'foo[33mâ��[31m'[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        postfixâ�¤        infix stopperâ�¤        in…»
20:56 masak vendethiel: spaces are good, m'kay? :)
20:57 vendethiel yes sir :-)
20:57 * vendethiel just looks at codegolf p6 answers
20:59 timotimo i wonder if we should start signing our commits with gpg keys? :3
20:59 adu joined #perl6
20:59 gtodd jeez
21:00 dalek specs: de83968 | lue++ | S15-unicode.pod:
21:00 dalek specs: [S15] Change what a numeric literal can be.
21:00 dalek specs:
21:00 dalek specs: Instead of "integral Numeric Value", it's now "category Nd". This leaves
21:00 dalek specs: out some potentially useful digit ranges in category No, which can be
21:00 dalek specs: dealt with as needed.
21:00 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/de8396860b
21:00 gtodd I had spent 6 months forgetting about it but now I have to have .comb :-|
21:00 gtodd must ... have
21:01 timotimo in perl5? :)
21:03 * lue ponders a proposal for Unicode to have a "digit set" property or similar, so Perl 6 wouldn't have to do it itself with, e.g., .succ :)
21:03 gtodd heh  yeah  ;-)
21:04 * masak .oO( not having digit set kinda .succ )
21:06 lue You can't use script or block properties for it. e.g.: ② and ㊿ are of different blocks, despite seeming related, yet 2 and ㊿ are of the same script, despite being wildly different :)
21:07 timotimo hmm
21:08 timotimo what piece of documentation on doc.perl6.org should i devote my attention to as soon as i'm in the doc improvement mood?
21:15 dalek nqp: 41b67f4 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/runtime/Ops.java:
21:15 dalek nqp: [jvm] fix decoding of bufs for bufs that do not match encoding bit width
21:15 dalek nqp:
21:15 dalek nqp: When we want to decode a buf8 to utf16, we have to take two elems, assemble
21:15 dalek nqp: what Java thinks is a codepoint and append that to our StringBuilder. For
21:15 dalek nqp: buf32->utf16 we do the opposite and for buf16->utf16 we get away with
21:15 dalek nqp: appending the elems to the StringBuilder.
21:15 dalek nqp: Note: Since StringBuilder does not distinguish between utf16 and utf32, we
21:15 dalek nqp: treat them equally until we know better.
21:15 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/41b67f4546
21:15 gtodd r:  $_='33392';$n=.comb(/<[2468]>/).min;/$n/;$/.from//-1,",$/"
21:15 camelia rakudo-parrot eaece0, rakudo-jvm eaece0, rakudo-moar eaece0: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Variable '$n' is not declaredâ�¤at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤------> [32m$_='33392';$n[33mâ��[31m=.comb(/<[2468]>/).min;/$n/;$/.from//-1,[0mâ�¤    expec…»
21:16 gtodd k
21:16 gtodd r: $_="333992";$n=.comb(/<[2468]>/).min;/$n/;$/.from//-1,",$/"
21:16 camelia rakudo-parrot eaece0, rakudo-jvm eaece0, rakudo-moar eaece0: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Variable '$n' is not declaredâ�¤at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤------> [32m$_="333992";$n[33mâ��[31m=.comb(/<[2468]>/).min;/$n/;$/.from//-1,[0mâ�¤    expe…»
21:16 gtodd :P
21:16 dayangkun_ joined #perl6
21:17 gtodd almost there ... works in the REPL ;-) cheers
21:17 * gtodd goes away for awhile
21:18 dragon_d joined #perl6
21:18 FROGGS jnthn: the post release nqp patch fixes https://gist.github.com/FROGGS/0ea5537eb675588baaa2#file-modules-test-j-sh-L30
21:19 masak gtodd: it probably works in the REPL because there you had already declared 'my $n'
21:20 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
21:35 [Coke] mouq++ #ticket maint.
21:36 Sqirrel_ joined #perl6
21:46 timotimo who agrees with me that the exceptions in doc.perl6.org ought to go in their own section, preferably even after routines?
21:48 lue +1
21:49 kurahaupo joined #perl6
21:52 timotimo interesting
21:53 timotimo index.pl in perl6/doc seems to rely on dir("lib") returning paths that need to have "lib/" prepended in order to work
21:55 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
21:55 masak that has shifted a bit during the existence of &dir
21:55 timotimo p: .say for dir()
21:55 camelia rakudo-parrot 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«IO::Path<.lesshst>␤IO::Path<rakudo-star-2014.03.tar.gz>␤IO::Path<.viminfo>␤IO::Path<star-2014.03>␤IO::Path<.ghc>␤IO::Path<rakudo>␤IO::Path<rakudo-inst-2>␤IO::Path<rakudo-inst-1>␤IO::Path<nohup.out>␤IO::Path<std>␤IO::Path<.bash_history…»
21:55 timotimo p: .say for dir(".ghc/")
21:55 masak though I don't remember how many times or in which directions, or how recently.
21:55 camelia rakudo-parrot 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«IO::Path<.ghc/x86_64-linux-7.6.2>␤»
21:56 timotimo p6: .say for dir(".ghc/")
21:56 kurahaupo_mobile joined #perl6
21:56 camelia rakudo-jvm 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«Failed to get the directory contents of '.ghc/': nqp::opendir: unable to get a DirectoryStream␤  in block  at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:13966␤  in method contents at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:13972␤  in sub dir at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:14002␤  in block  at /tm…»
21:56 camelia ..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: dir may not be used in safe mode␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 0 (dir @ 0) ␤  at /tmp/tmpfile line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4595 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza…»
21:56 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 6f0b1d, rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«IO::Path<.ghc/x86_64-linux-7.6.2>␤»
21:56 timotimo so at least parrot and moar agree on this
22:01 dalek doc: 4db9132 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | htmlify.pl:
22:01 dalek doc: move all exceptions into their own category at the very end
22:01 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/4db913249f
22:01 timotimo that's much cleaner IMO
22:03 masak make: *** No rule to make target `stresstest'.  Stop.
22:04 masak indeed, there's p-stresstest, j-stresstest, m-stresstest, but no stresstest.
22:04 masak the release_guide is charmingly outdated on this point.
22:04 kurahaupo_mobile joined #perl6
22:04 masak hm, or the Makefile should have a target that combines those.
22:04 * masak temporarily adds one
22:07 kurahaupo joined #perl6
22:07 lue syngen is currently 10 minutes faster on feather than on my machine (≈30m vs. ≈20m) :)
22:09 timotimo what's the difference between those machines?
22:10 timotimo i didn't expect feather to be beefy
22:11 lue Well, it's not like my computer is the newest, so... :)
22:13 timotimo OK
22:14 lue For reference, it took me "1730 wallclock secs" to run m-spectest a short while ago.
22:16 timotimo how many concurent test jobs?
22:17 timotimo how do i refer to a private attribute of a non-self instance of my own class again?
22:17 lue the line was just  'make m-spectest', I didn't think -j did anything
22:17 Mouq joined #perl6
22:17 Mouq o/
22:17 lue \o
22:17 Mouq timotimo++ are you planning on generating a new doc.perl6.org? I'm all set up to right now
22:17 timotimo -j won't change that
22:17 Mouq if you're not
22:18 timotimo Mouq: i'm not, please do it for me :)
22:18 Mouq timotimo: Ok :)
22:21 lue timotimo: how do you change it then, ooc?
22:21 timotimo TEST_JOBS=n
22:22 lue so, -j to run multiple backends' tests, and TEST_JOBS to run each spectest in a concurrent fashion. :)
22:23 timotimo yup
22:24 lue Now that I know, it'll be interesting to see what TEST_JOBS does for me.
22:24 gtodd masak: doh ... seriously I can barley read the output in this IRC client :-)
22:24 adu joined #perl6
22:25 gtodd barely even
22:26 treehug88 joined #perl6
22:29 treehug88 joined #perl6
22:29 Mouq timotimo: Done :)
22:29 timotimo much better, aye?
22:30 treehug88 joined #perl6
22:31 masak gtodd: get a better IRC client?
22:32 timotimo http://doc.perl6.org/language/objects#Role_Application - is the R1, R2 thing really the right way around?
22:34 masak http://masak.org/carl/tmp/rakudo-2014.04.tar.gz ready for upload to the appropriate area. PerlJam++, still there?
22:35 masak (and rakudo tagged)
22:36 masak timotimo: in `class C does R2 does R1 { }`, order doesn't matter between the roles. either there is a conflict or there isn't.
22:36 masak timotimo: having said that, I think writing it that way (essentially backwards) is confusing.
22:37 gtodd Mouq: I just commented on your SO codegolf ... I translated my perl5 with Masak and Camelia ;-)
22:37 lue It gives off an expansion feel though: C does R2 in the first case could be seen as something like  C does (R2 does R1)
22:38 timotimo OK
22:38 timotimo i'm about to patch that file, masak. so should i reverse R1 and R2 there?
22:39 masak IMO, yes.
22:40 masak anyone who is competent enough to manage the build system of Rakudo -- please add a 'stresstest' target. it is currently missing, but the release guide assumes it's present.
22:40 gtodd Mouq: not really astonished at how unreadable  so many golfed languages are  (errm "linenoise anyone? but idioms are like that) still though perl6 really stays very readable in golf mode
22:40 timotimo gtodd: or rather: it doesn't get much more unreadable ;)
22:40 Mouq gtodd: Thanks! :)
22:40 gtodd haha
22:40 Mouq m: $_="333992";/<{.comb(/<[2468]>/).min}>/;say $/.from//-1,",$/"
22:40 lue timotimo: I personally think the current order better conveys a sense of substitution, like I demonstrated above. But I guess it doesn't matter.
22:40 camelia rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«5,2␤»
22:41 lue (would Door #3 be to mention that the order doesn't matter?)
22:41 dalek doc: 91f0dca | (Timo Paulssen)++ | lib/objects.pod:
22:41 dalek doc: elaborate a bit on the objects tut.
22:41 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/91f0dca485
22:41 masak I'm currently blocking on someone uploading the tarball.
22:41 timotimo feel free to review
22:41 colomon joined #perl6
22:41 timotimo (and Mouq, feel free to rebuild and re-upload)
22:41 gtodd Mouq: \o/
22:41 Mouq gtodd: That fails on all-odd, though
22:41 Mouq bbiab
22:42 gtodd Mouq:  doh ... I think the one I put up worked but was quite long ...  if else etc
22:43 gtodd and I just cargo coded ;-)
22:43 timotimo i can't access rakudo.org via ssh right now
22:43 timotimo masak: otherwise i'd've done it for you
22:44 gtodd .comb should have a unicode short cut ... .UNICODE_COMB_DRAWING
22:46 LLamaRider joined #perl6
22:46 dalek rakudo/nom: 4b9d8c6 | lue++ | Configure.pl:
22:46 dalek rakudo/nom: Add all-backends 'stresstest' target for Makefile.
22:46 dalek rakudo/nom:
22:46 dalek rakudo/nom: Thanks to masak++ for noticing.
22:46 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4b9d8c6e7f
22:46 masak lue++
22:47 masak I'm done with the Rakudo release, except I'm blocking on the upload.
22:47 masak still a bit jetlagged, and not really eager to stay up for much longer.
22:47 masak parting instructions:
22:48 masak (a) anyone who has the SSH keys, feel free to upload http://masak.org/carl/tmp/rakudo-2014.04.tar.gz to the appropriate place
22:48 timotimo and also the nqp tarball?
22:49 masak PerlJam++ uploaded that one already.
22:49 masak (b) sending out the p6c announcement and updating the Wikipedia article -- *not* before (a) has been done -- can either be done by other people while I'm asleep, or I'll get to it first thing tomorrow morning, jetlag-time.
22:50 dalek doc: 976bd5f | (Timo Paulssen)++ | lib/operators.pod:
22:50 dalek doc: typo: $++x instead of ++$x
22:50 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/976bd5f765
22:50 masak that's all, I think.
22:50 masak 'night, #perl6
22:50 lue ♞ masak o/
22:50 timotimo gnite masak, and good work!
22:50 timotimo sleep well!
22:54 masak thanks, I most certainly will.
22:54 Mouq 'night masak!
22:54 Mouq timotimo: I'll regen doc in a bit
22:55 Mouq gtodd: Gimme a little while and I'll look at it
22:55 timotimo hold on
22:55 timotimo r: say 1 cmp 5
22:55 camelia rakudo-parrot 6f0b1d, rakudo-jvm 6f0b1d, rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«Less␤»
22:55 timotimo r: say 5 cmp 5
22:55 timotimo r: say 7 cmp 5
22:55 camelia rakudo-parrot 6f0b1d, rakudo-jvm 6f0b1d, rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«Same␤»
22:55 camelia rakudo-parrot 6f0b1d, rakudo-jvm 6f0b1d, rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«More␤»
22:55 timotimo the docs are outdated! :)
22:56 dalek doc: 4082c42 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | lib/operators.pod:
22:56 dalek doc: increase/decrease have been renamed less/more.
22:56 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/4082c42367
23:01 timotimo r: say 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 ... 8
23:01 camelia rakudo-parrot 6f0b1d, rakudo-jvm 6f0b1d, rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«1 2 4 8␤»
23:05 dalek doc: f8540de | (Timo Paulssen)++ | lib/operators.pod:
23:05 dalek doc: ... checks initial elements against endpoint, too
23:05 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f8540de10a
23:10 lue Mouq: there's no such scheme specified (AFAIK), but I'd fully support syn: for the synopses (L<syn:S02>, L<syn:A12>, ...)
23:14 Mouq timotimo: That '$++x' should probably be '$x++' based on the comments
23:14 Mouq Yeah "postfix ++"
23:14 Mouq As in timotimo++ :}
23:14 Mouq *:)
23:15 timotimo er, it should? oops :)(
23:15 timotimo :)
23:15 Mouq lue: Oh, I think you're right that it's not in S26… I'll add it
23:15 timotimo there we go
23:15 dalek doc: 417e4c4 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | lib/regexes.pod:
23:15 dalek doc: fix a typo'd formatting code
23:15 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/417e4c46ab
23:15 dalek doc: a6ff140 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | lib/operators.pod:
23:15 dalek doc: oops. this is the correct fix.
23:15 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/a6ff1401ab
23:16 Mouq m: $_="33399";/<{.comb(/<[2468]>/).min}>/;say $/.from//-1,",$/"
23:16 camelia rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native string␤  in sub MAKE_REGEX at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:12959␤  in block  at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:12897␤  in method reify at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:7686␤  in method reify at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:7549␤  in metho…»
23:16 Mouq m: $_="33399";/<{.comb(/<[2468]>/).min||Any}>/;say $/.from//-1,",$/"
23:17 camelia rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native string␤  in sub MAKE_REGEX at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:12959␤  in block  at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:12897␤  in method reify at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:7686␤  in method reify at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:7549␤  in metho…»
23:17 Mouq m: "abcd"~~/<{Any}>/ # Arguably Rakudobug, though I'm guessing it's undefined behaviour
23:17 camelia rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: ( no output )
23:17 Mouq Oh
23:17 timotimo m: say "!!!" ~~ / <[!]>+ /
23:17 camelia rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«「!!!」␤␤»
23:17 timotimo m: say "!!!" ~~ / <[\!]>+ /
23:18 camelia rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«「!!!」␤␤»
23:18 Mouq m: "abcd"~~/<{Nil}>/
23:18 camelia rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: ( no output )
23:18 timotimo m: say "..!!!." ~~ / <[.]>+ /
23:18 camelia rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«「..」␤␤»
23:18 Mouq m: say "abcd"~~/<{Nil}>/
23:18 camelia rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
23:18 Mouq :?
23:18 timotimo m: say "..!!!./\\" ~~ / <[/]>+ /
23:18 camelia rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«「/」␤␤»
23:18 Mouq m: say "abcd"~~/<{+"14"}>/
23:18 camelia rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native string␤  in sub MAKE_REGEX at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:12959␤  in block  at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:12897␤  in method reify at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:7686␤  in method reify at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:7549␤  in metho…»
23:18 timotimo i'm not 100% sure what exactly must and what must not be escaped between <[ ]>
23:18 Mouq m: say "abcd"~~/<{14}>/
23:18 timotimo can somebody be un-lazy for me while i type up the rest of the section?
23:18 camelia rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native string␤  in sub MAKE_REGEX at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:12959␤  in block  at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:12897␤  in method reify at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:7686␤  in method reify at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:7549␤  in metho…»
23:18 Mouq THAT is a definite Rakudobug
23:19 timotimo it should .Str it by itself?
23:20 timotimo m: say "abacabadabacaba" ~~ / <[ a .. c ]>+ /
23:20 camelia rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«「abacaba」␤␤»
23:21 Mouq timotimo: "<nibble($¢.cursor_fresh( %*LANG<Q> ).tweak(:cc).unbalanced("]"))>"
23:22 timotimo Mouq -v # for tired timotimo
23:22 Mouq So... ']', '\', '-', and '..' I think
23:23 timotimo why -?
23:23 Mouq Though '..' shouldn't practically appear in a character class
23:23 Mouq timotimo: Backward incompatability
23:23 timotimo yeah, the second . would be redundant already
23:23 timotimo oh, right
23:23 timotimo it'll complain if it's in a weird spot
23:23 Mouq std: /<[a-z]>/
23:23 camelia std e347792: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Unsupported use of - as character range; in Perl 6 please use .. (or \- if you mean a literal hyphen) at /tmp/HkzjQUSA6c line 1:�------> [32m/<[a-z[33m�[31m]>/[0m�Parse failed�FAILED 00:01 123m�»
23:24 Mouq m: $_="33399";/<{!.comb(/<[2468]>/).min}>/;say $/.from//-1,",$/"
23:24 camelia rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native string␤  in sub MAKE_REGEX at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:12959␤  in block  at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:12897␤  in method reify at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:7686␤  in method reify at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:7549␤  in metho…»
23:24 Mouq Oops
23:24 Mouq m: $_="33399";/<{~.comb(/<[2468]>/).min}>/;say $/.from//-1,",$/"
23:24 camelia rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«-1,␤»
23:24 Mouq m: $_="333994";/<{~.comb(/<[2468]>/).min}>/;say $/.from//-1,",$/"
23:24 camelia rakudo-moar 6f0b1d: OUTPUT«5,4␤»
23:24 timotimo std: /<[az-]>/
23:24 camelia std e347792: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 123m␤»
23:24 Mouq Looks good to me
23:24 Mouq gtodd++
23:25 thou This has been a pet peeve of mine for a while:  https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/265
23:26 timotimo oh, nice
23:26 Mouq thou: thou =:= softmoth?
23:28 dalek doc: 8fe2c15 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | lib/regexes.pod:
23:28 dalek doc: a bit on character ranges
23:28 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/8fe2c15747
23:28 timotimo Mouq: i think i've had enough documenting for the moment - need to rest my wrists a bit
23:28 timotimo feel free to re-generate
23:28 timotimo (review welcome as always)
23:30 timotimo we've been talking about giving perl6.org AAAA records; who actually has the permissions to change the DNS entries?
23:32 Mouq timotimo++++
23:32 timotimo i'm not sure i get any karma for that :P
23:33 Mouq you get karma for documentation
23:33 Mouq :)
23:33 timotimo mhm
23:33 Mouq ok
23:33 Mouq gtodd: Post updated
23:34 Mouq Actually, I'll say as much in the comments
23:35 lue I like how using TEST_JOBS gets me a shiny progress-bar-thing at the bottom of the screen :)
23:36 dalek rakudo-star-daily: de9ae78 | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
23:36 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
23:36 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/commit/de9ae784eb
23:36 Mouq doc/htmlify.pl should really be caching
23:37 PerlJam Did anyone upload masak's rakudo release?
23:38 timotimo i don't think so, PerlJam
23:38 lue Mouq: syngen has a pretty dumb cacher, if you dare to attempt to read some really-needs-to-be-cleaned-up code :)
23:38 * lue is somewhat in the process of said cleanup, actually.
23:38 PerlJam uploaded.
23:38 timotimo PerlJam++
23:39 timotimo not sure if the announcement should go out before moarvm.org has its download link updated, too?
23:40 adu joined #perl6
23:41 PerlJam how is moarvm.org updated exactly?
23:41 Mouq PerlJam: https://github.com/MoarVM/moarvm.org
23:42 timotimo http://www.dlugosz.com/Perl6/ - should perl6.org/specification continue to link to this page?
23:42 PerlJam Is someone cutting a moarvm release?
23:42 timotimo it is already cut, afaict
23:42 timotimo hm
23:42 timotimo but i don't see an url for a tarball yet
23:44 Mouq masak++++, totally missed that you did the release, and PerlJam++ for the upload
23:46 Mouq timotimo: doc updated
23:46 dalek perl6.org: a051871 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | source/community/index.html:
23:46 dalek perl6.org: fix a leaky anchor tag
23:46 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/a051871bd5
23:46 timotimo who can update perl6.org from the sources?
23:48 jnthn evening o/
23:48 lue timotimo: I don't see much point to link to that anymore myself.
23:48 Mouq o/ jnthn
23:48 lue \o jnthn
23:48 timotimo hey jnthn
23:49 timotimo about to upload & link a moarvm tarball, are you? :)
23:49 Mouq lue: I think planetaria.org/perl6 is good, especially for someone new to the community
23:50 lue whaddya know, TEST_JOBS=4 brings me down the hundreds
23:50 jnthn timotimo: Uh...I uploaded the 2014.04 moarvm earlier?
23:50 lue Mouq: I was talking http://www.dlugosz.com/Perl6/
23:50 Mouq lue: Ohhh
23:50 timotimo jnthn: didn't see a link to it; so i guess only the website needs updated?
23:50 timotimo seen szagab
23:50 timotimo !seen szagab
23:50 timotimo .seen szagab
23:50 yoleaux I haven't seen szagab around.
23:50 lue Mouq: your link doesn't even work :)
23:50 Mouq lue: ooc, is syngen yet concurrent?
23:50 jnthn timotimo: I .tell'd it to masak earlier today, and mentioned it on #moarvm
23:50 timotimo which of our bots currently tracks karma btw?
23:50 Mouq *planeteria :P
23:51 jnthn 14:52 < jnthn> http://www.moarvm.org/releases/MoarVM-2014.04.tar.gz
23:51 timotimo ah, i only searched on #moarvm
23:51 jnthn timotimo: Website update is todo, yes.
23:51 lue Mouq: I threw some awaits in there once, but it didn't help much, and jnthn's recent post made me realize it needs more thought put into it anyway :)
23:51 jnthn timotimo: Above was from #moarvm
23:51 lue (Also, code cleanup feels more important atm)
23:51 timotimo huh? weird. my backscroll search thingie didn't find it
23:52 timotimo lines that contain [off] won't come up in the irc log, right?
23:52 adu joined #perl6
23:53 Mouq lue: Ok :) I've been following you're commits but I haven't really taken a good look at the details of syngen, and was just curious
23:53 Mouq *your
23:53 timotimo except the second logger, the one that logs to colabti.org, does feature those.
23:53 timotimo oh, [off] isn't the right trigger for that apparently
23:54 lue If you look at the code, it seriously needs to be modularized by now :)
23:55 dalek perl6.org: 4803e39 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | source/community/irc.html:
23:55 dalek perl6.org: aloha is gone, mention ilogger2.
23:55 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/4803e39a2c
23:55 dalek perl6.org: ea6c5ae | (Timo Paulssen)++ | source/community/index.html:
23:55 dalek perl6.org: a positive note about mailing list traffic and response time.
23:55 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/ea6c5aee04
23:55 thou Mouq: Yes, thou == softmoth
23:55 thou (Sorry, got pulled away for a minute.)
23:55 * lue would really love it if he could go two git commits without having to reinstall panda and assorted modules
23:56 xenoterracide_ joined #perl6

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