Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-06-06

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:11 TimToady some nutjob shot up my alma mater while you were nomming too; I know people who work in that building... :(
00:18 cognominal welcome to North America
00:21 cognominal TimToady graduated in Street Pick Up?  Oh, no. That's a different acronym.
00:22 cognominal http://spu.edu/depts/ugadm/​etc/missionary-to-geeks.asp
00:22 cognominal I did not know that TimToady rubbed elbows with Bill Gates.
00:25 cognominal Somehow appropriate that the page on TimToady ends up in /etc, so unixy
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03:43 TimToady turns out my nephew was actually in the building at the time, and it's a building that I have lectured in
03:43 TimToady so I'm a little creeped out
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03:44 TimToady I know exactly what that foyer looks like, with a sunken central lounge that probably looked like a "killing field" to the shooter
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03:51 TimToady the science kids put up there displays there when they're having the annual science exhibit, and I've been to math and CS parties there
03:51 TimToady was very fortunate there were not more people there at the time
03:54 Pleiades` ?
03:54 Pleiades` Canadian shooting thing?
04:00 TimToady no, Seattle Pacific University
04:01 Pleiades` oh wow..
04:01 TimToady shooter wasn't a student, apparently a random crazy
04:02 TimToady the picture at http://www.komonews.com/news/local/P​olice-respond-to-shooting-near-Seatt​le-Pacific-University-262043001.html is actually taken from that sunken area I mentioned, you can see the steps
04:03 TimToady the head of the CS department had their office just off the right of the picture, at least until recently
04:04 TimToady (she was also one of my piano accompanists when I was studying violin...)
04:04 TimToady funny how we both ended up in computers
04:04 Pleiades` I wish these events weren't publicized so much..
04:05 TimToady yeah, might just be a copycat fo the Isla Vista thing; both my sons are in Santa Barbara currently, so that's also creepy
04:06 TimToady one of our quizzer kids at church knew one of the victims down there, small world
04:07 TimToady we hunted for apartments for Aron in Isla Vista, but he ended up a bit further west, thankfully
04:08 TimToady (quietfanatic++ is just finishing up at Westmont, other end of Santa Barbara)
04:18 cognominal In Europe, shootings are between gangs members or by political terrorists, and that's pretty rare. There is no gun culture outside hunting. So there is still the risk to be shot by a stupid hunter in nature. And some suicidal people who may kill their family as well.
04:18 Pleiades` let's not get into a gun debate..
04:19 cognominal that was more a cultural remark.
04:19 Pleiades` ah
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06:44 sergot morning o/
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07:03 moritz \o
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07:08 FROGGS o/
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07:38 atroxaper Hello, #perl6 !
07:39 atroxaper I have an easy question. If a have a number 5.7. How can i get 5 and 7 separately?
07:40 xfix $number - int $number
07:41 atroxaper Oh! Many thanks!
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07:44 moritz $number - $number.Int
07:44 moritz there's not int prefix op in p6
07:45 atroxaper I used Int($number)
07:46 atroxaper Have we function for runding (i'm not sure if it is right term). I mean something like: round(5.7) = 6
07:47 atroxaper Just for my information :)
07:48 moritz m: say round 5.7
07:48 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«6␤»
07:48 atroxaper This is the best election of terms! I love Perl 6! )
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08:01 xfix (I confused this channel with #perl)
08:02 nwc10 is that a compliment? :-)
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08:13 xfix (Well, I typed `int`, thinking it's generic #perl question)
08:14 masak good antenoon, #perl6
08:14 moritz masak o/
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08:15 timotimo o/
08:16 zengargoyle morning world
08:16 xfix r: say 4.8 % 1
08:16 camelia rakudo-jvm 28d672: OUTPUT«0.7999999999999998␤»
08:16 camelia ..rakudo-{parrot,moar} 28d672: OUTPUT«0.8␤»
08:17 xfix r: say 4.8 div 1
08:17 camelia rakudo-parrot 28d672: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'infix:<div>'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Int:D \a, Int:D \b)␤:(int $a, int $b)␤  in any  at gen/parrot/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1222␤  in sub infix:<div> at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:4264␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
08:17 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 28d672: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'infix:<div>'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Int:D \a, Int:D \b)␤:(int $a, int $b)␤  in any  at gen/jvm/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1215␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
08:17 camelia ..rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'infix:<div>'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Int:D \a, Int:D \b)␤:(int $a, int $b)␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
08:20 xfix r-m: say -4.8 % 1
08:20 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«0.2␤»
08:27 masak r: say (4.8 % 1).WHAT
08:27 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 28d672: OUTPUT«(Num)␤»
08:27 masak why is that Num and not Rat?
08:27 masak r: say (4.8 / 1).WHAT
08:27 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 28d672: OUTPUT«(Rat)␤»
08:27 masak if infix:</> gives Rat, shouldn't infix:<%>, too?
08:27 masak avoiding the 0.7999999999999998 above.
08:28 moritz IMHO it should follow the same "only use Num if there's already one Num" philosophy
08:30 masak yeah.
08:30 * masak submits rakudobug
08:30 moritz and maybe also spec it that way?
08:30 masak one thing at a time :)
08:30 masak ...but yes.
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08:32 jnthn morning o/
08:34 masak jnthn! \o/
08:37 dalek specs: ca66483 | masak++ | S03-operators.pod:
08:37 dalek specs: [S03] make infix:<%> be rational if possible
08:37 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/ca66483bd8
08:37 masak I hope that's precise enough.
08:37 masak I just copied the corresponding paragraph from infix:</>
08:40 sergot any ideas for next release's name? :)
08:41 * moritz enjoyed reading http://blog.scalyr.com/2014/05/searching-20-​gbsec-systems-engineering-before-algorithms/ (on a totally unrelated note)
08:42 masak sergot: Poznan!
08:42 masak oh no, that's taken.
08:42 masak (that was Rakudo #65)
08:43 masak sergot: any other .pm group in Poland that deserves a shout-out?
08:43 sergot masak: you named it Poznan some time ago! :)
08:43 sergot that's right
08:43 sergot hmmm
08:45 sergot masak: I dont think so, I hope something forms up in Gdansk.
08:45 DrEeevil moritz: omglol
08:46 DrEeevil moritz: they are proud of spending $25/h/client on clown computing
08:46 DrEeevil I don't even want to see their price list ...
08:46 DrEeevil I mean, they have to start at $25k/mo for their base service
08:53 moritz DrEeevil: they actually seem to have just one setup for all clients
08:53 moritz DrEeevil: at least that's how I understood the writeup
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08:54 DrEeevil ah, would make sense
08:54 DrEeevil very wasteful still ... but people look at me strangely when I suggest dedicated hardware at 1/5th the price
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08:55 timotimo but ... it wouldn't be cloud  ... ?!
08:55 DrEeevil yeah, how sad
08:56 DrEeevil then you start doing things like Infiniband between servers and reduce network latency ...
08:56 DrEeevil imagine going faster than the speed limit! ;)
08:56 timotimo what good is infiniband between servers if they are not in the cloud?
08:56 DrEeevil (I like cloud, it pays well)
08:56 timotimo can't you just rent an infiniband cloud service?
08:56 DrEeevil kekeke
08:56 timotimo management says: make it happen!
08:56 DrEeevil the best part about cloud is when you have a load spike and can't get new instances
08:57 timotimo but that's exactly what cloud means! you can always get a new instance immediately!
08:57 timotimo because it's a cloud, you see!
08:57 DrEeevil where normal capacity planning would just leave a little bit reserve ...
08:57 DrEeevil oh well, I just make stuff go fast
08:57 timotimo you haven't been making Perl 6 go fast :P
08:58 DrEeevil yeah, other things distracting me
08:58 DrEeevil I just package it for gentoo for now, which is already a good start :)
08:58 timotimo neato, gentoo is quasi a synonym for "fast"
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09:23 masak how do I coerce a Bag to a Hash?
09:25 timotimo m: my $b = bag 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3; say $b.perl; say $b.Hash.perl;
09:25 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«(1=>2,2=>3,3=>5).Bag␤No such method 'Hash' for invocant of type 'Bag'␤  in block  at /tmp/ZnuwPwf_DM:1␤␤»
09:25 timotimo m: my $b = bag 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3; say $b.perl; say $b.kv.perl;
09:25 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«(1=>2,2=>3,3=>5).Bag␤((1, 2), (2, 3), (3, 5)).list␤»
09:25 timotimo m: my $b = bag 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3; say $b.perl; say $b.kv.Hash.perl;
09:25 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«(1=>2,2=>3,3=>5).Bag␤No such method 'Hash' for invocant of type 'List'␤  in block  at /tmp/MO00UR1UeP:1␤␤»
09:25 timotimo m: my $b = bag 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3; say $b.perl; say $b.hash.perl;
09:25 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«(1=>2,2=>3,3=>5).Bag␤("1" => 2, "3" => 5, "2" => 3).hash␤»
09:25 timotimo ah
09:26 masak not really what I want...
09:26 lizmat masak: seems you have found a missing coercer
09:27 lizmat masak: what do you want then?
09:27 masak my use case was this:
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09:27 masak I had a bunch of discrete values, such as timotimo's example above.
09:27 masak I just wanted a hash with the keys being each unique value, and values being the count.
09:28 masak seems I can't get there from here without a loop right now.
09:28 jnthn masak: That's what .hash gave you, no?
09:28 timotimo oh no!
09:28 timotimo t/installer.t .. Failed 1/8 subtests
09:28 masak jnthn: oh, indeed.
09:28 masak jnthn: any reason .Hash shouldn't also work?
09:29 lizmat because it isn't specced
09:29 lizmat .hash is, .Hash is not
09:29 jnthn Well, question is what gets identity under .hash
09:29 lizmat like .list is, and .List is not
09:29 masak hm, when I look again at my use case, I think I only really need a Set...
09:29 jnthn .list is more like "give me a list-y nature" rather than "give me a List"
09:29 masak the counts don't matter.
09:30 lizmat masak: then just .Set your list
09:30 timotimo a git pull fixed my panda issue apparently
09:30 masak m: my $s = set 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3; say $s.hash.perl
09:30 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«("3" => Bool::True, "2" => Bool::True, "1" => Bool::True).hash␤»
09:30 masak najs.
09:30 jnthn m: say set <up us the bomb>
09:30 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«set(up, us, the, bomb)␤»
09:30 lizmat m: <a b b c d d e f>.Set.perl.say
09:30 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«set("a","b","c","d","e","f")␤»
09:31 masak m: my $s = set 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3; say $s.sort
09:31 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
09:31 masak m: my $s = set 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3; say $s.sort.WHAT
09:31 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«(Parcel)␤»
09:31 masak eeexcellent
09:31 jnthn m: say (1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3).uniq.sort
09:31 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
09:32 jnthn That's likely a bunch cheaper than building a Set up, if it's good enough (but I may be missing some context).
09:32 lizmat well, uniq is also building a hash
09:32 jnthn True, though I thought we optimized uniq a bit?
09:34 lizmat well, de-optimized really, as it is now using gather/take than just a map
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09:45 masak ah, yes, .uniq is even better :)
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10:01 timotimo so ... i could probably build a fastcgi based webserver in perl6 using thread pools and async stuff, couldn't i?
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10:21 timotimo i wonder if FastCGI STDIN and STDOUT packets will flush directly to the client, thus allowing websockets to be implemented on top of fcgi without extra modules
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10:29 tahyat hello. I was wondering, what is the reason that the automatically generated command line argument parser forced the optional named argument to be passed before the positional ones in cases like : multi MAIN ($foo , :$bar) { say 42; }
10:30 timotimo interesting
10:30 timotimo i thought it would only display it that way in the usage, but not force the nameds to the front
10:31 jnthn Forces it, as far as I remember. I don't recall the design reason off hand.
10:34 tahyat it does force... but it feels... LTA
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10:40 timotimo aye, we do need a more powerful commandline argument parser as a module
10:40 timotimo one that known about subcommands for example
10:40 smls I think the built-in one should follow the common Linux conventions
10:41 smls rather than the somewhat weird custom rules it enforces now
10:41 timotimo mhm
10:41 timotimo it would be interesting to find that design decision again
10:42 lizmat timotimo: fwiw, I know someone who wants a more powerful commandline argument parser
10:42 timotimo i want one, too. to make perl6-bench nicer ;)
10:42 lizmat I'm hoping this itch will get him into the perl 6 fold a bit more
10:42 ribasushi lizmat => cunning
10:42 timotimo :3
10:42 lizmat but of course, don't let that stop you
10:43 smls imo accepting Perl 6 adverb syntax on the command-line is pretty weird too
10:43 timotimo what?
10:43 timotimo we do that?
10:43 smls the command-line is an user-facing interface, not for developers
10:43 timotimo that does not seem to wor
10:44 timotimo work
10:44 smls http://perlcabal.org/syn/S06.ht​ml#Declaring_a_MAIN_subroutine
10:44 timotimo perl6-m -e 'sub MAIN($foo, :$bar) { say 42 }' :bar\(123\) 123
10:44 timotimo Usage:
10:44 timotimo -e '...' [--bar=<Any>] <foo>
10:44 timotimo oh, interesting
10:44 timotimo specced but not implemented
10:45 timotimo these negated flags are ... interesting
10:45 smls I suspect that those extra non-standard "features" are also the reason why options are forced to come after position arguments
10:45 smls which makes me like them even less
10:45 FROGGS jnthn: when I compile Perl5::Actions it has 8 load_dependency_tasks at the end, 6 about modules, where 5 modules are NQP modules...
10:46 FROGGS jnthn: is there a piece of code in moar where it runs these tasks when loading a CU?
10:46 smls but ah well, I'm sure someone will write a module for proper Unix-style command line parsing
10:46 FROGGS jnthn: so I can see how many tasks are there at the point of loading Perl5::Actions as a dep?
10:46 timotimo smls: did you mean "before"?
10:48 jnthn FROGGS: The tasks just compile into normal bytecode in a load frame.
10:48 smls timotimo: yes
10:48 jnthn FROGGS: So if you dump the bytecode and look near the bottom you'll likely see it.
10:48 FROGGS jnthn: ahh
10:48 jnthn FROGGS: I guess loadbytecode.c is the thing that triggers it off
10:50 FROGGS 00193   const_s      loc_22_str, 'ModuleLoader'
10:50 FROGGS 00194   gethllsym    loc_23_obj, loc_25_str, loc_22_str
10:50 FROGGS 00195   const_s      loc_22_str, 'QAST'
10:50 FROGGS so it is in there
10:51 FROGGS itis not near the bottom though
10:51 FROGGS I had expected fixups to be at the bottom perhaps, and deps at the top
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10:52 FROGGS if also gets the :from<NQP>
10:52 FROGGS 00198   const_s      loc_25_str, 'from'
10:52 FROGGS 00199   wval         loc_26_obj, 0, 428
10:52 FROGGS ohh...
10:53 FROGGS jnthn: is it possible that it does not load the nqp module because the compiler already has it in use?
10:54 jnthn Well, it won't re-load it, but if you're missing an SC...
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11:00 lizmat I'm thinking of adding is-unixy to Distro
11:00 lizmat $!is-unixy = !$is-win or $!name eq any <mingw msys cygwin>;
11:00 lizmat would that make sense
11:00 lizmat ?
11:01 FROGGS is-unix as a name would be better I think
11:01 lizmat well, would you consider cygwin to be a Unix ?
11:01 FROGGS because unix is used for unixish things, whereas UNIX is not
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11:02 lizmat I was thinking that unixy Distro's have / in their paths, rather than \
11:02 FROGGS lizmat: read the paragraph above the contents box here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix
11:03 FROGGS cygwin handles both / and \
11:03 FROGGS (and so does windows)
11:03 lizmat it does nowadays ?
11:03 FROGGS since a while, yes
11:04 * lizmat jettisoned windows well over a decade ago
11:04 FROGGS since windows xp perhaps
11:04 FROGGS you dont get tab completion for forward slashes, but you can use 'em
11:04 lizmat Win98 was the last windows I ever used, so that explains
11:04 FROGGS hehe
11:06 lizmat ok, so if cygwin, msys and mingw support \ in paths, qualifying them as "is-win" is enough
11:06 lizmat and then just use \ in path tests for is-win
11:07 jnthn I'm not sure an "is unixy" or "is windowsy" really cuts it. It's probably like in the browser world, asking "is it IE" or "is in netscape"...and we learned not to do it there, and focus on capabilities instead.
11:07 jnthn We might want to learn from that.
11:08 lizmat so add a $!dir-sep to Distro?
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11:08 FROGGS jnthn: in real life code you test for being on windows or not though
11:09 FROGGS why ins't that in IO::Spec?
11:09 FROGGS SC_0 : A7118E2B636564D15210DFF4C91B4593E715CDC1
11:09 FROGGS SC_1 : 46F76A19BAFA627AFB5842D01AEF7​192BB1761EC-1402048469.82235
11:09 FROGGS SC_2 : 2F248A38B99586BA96295787689AF​AF00A750766-1402048260.84556
11:09 FROGGS jnthn: is the SC_= my own SC?
11:10 FROGGS err, SC_0
11:10 jnthn FROGGS: Maybe, not automatically
11:10 FROGGS k
11:10 jnthn lizmat: But...can't I already get that from File::Spec?
11:10 jnthn FROGGS: Real way to know is to see if the createsc op is used with that identifier.
11:11 atroxaper joined #perl6
11:11 lizmat afk for the afternoon
11:12 xfix mu is huge. Even when most things were removed, cloning it takes a while...
11:12 xfix Perhaps it could be possible to move everything from mu.
11:13 xfix (or at least things that are still being used)
11:13 xfix (like this 5 <-> 6 differences)
11:14 xfix s/\)/page )/
11:14 FROGGS jnthn: here is what I do btw: https://gist.github.com/FROGGS/​d050ffc13905450ce473#file-a-pm6
11:14 FROGGS looking at createsc now
11:15 FROGGS ahh, QAST.moarvm has this also: SC_3 : 2F248A38B99586BA96295787689AF​AF00A750766-1402048260.84556
11:16 dalek mu: 0d4730b | (Konrad Borowski)++ | docs/feather/index.html:
11:16 dalek mu: Revert "Redirect par.perl.org to par.wikia.com"
11:16 dalek mu:
11:16 dalek mu: This reverts commit a5b38489bc7a773996340d603a5a3b7ab2a8bc73.
11:16 dalek mu:
11:16 dalek mu: This redirect was already applied on the web server (with a proper
11:16 dalek mu: HTTP 301), and therefore this JavaScript code is useless (unless you
11:16 dalek mu: count NoScript warnings as something useful).
11:16 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/0d4730b6da
11:16 FROGGS so in case this is QAST's scid, then this would fit
11:16 FROGGS my SC_1 or SC_0 would be my own and perl6.moarvm then
11:18 tahyat fwiw I found the discussion about positional and named arguments. http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2011-10-17#i_4578537
11:19 tahyat off to lunch o/
11:20 tahyat left #perl6
11:25 FROGGS jnthn: btw, that SC id without the timestamp is highly suspicious I think: SC_0 : A7118E2B636564D15210DFF4C91B4593E715CDC1
11:26 jnthn Why?
11:26 jnthn Perl 6 ones typically don't get timestamps, NQP ones do...
11:26 FROGGS it has no timestamp... and all .moarvm... Ahh!
11:27 jnthn Because bootstrapping
11:27 jnthn Rakudo doesn't ahve that problem so sha-1 of the source is enough.
11:31 FROGGS 00059 const_s loc_2_str, 'A7118E2B636564D15210DFF4C91B4593E715CDC1'
11:31 FROGGS 00060 createsc loc_7_obj, loc_2_str
11:31 FROGGS 00061 set loc_13_obj, loc_7_obj
11:31 FROGGS 00062 const_s loc_2_str, 'A.pm'
11:31 FROGGS does that mean it is about to create itself?
11:31 jnthn yes
11:32 FROGGS okay, so SC_0 is its own...
11:33 jnthn Hang on a moment...
11:33 jnthn 13:42 < FROGGS> 00198   const_s      loc_25_str, 'from'
11:33 jnthn 13:42 < FROGGS> 00199   wval         loc_26_obj, 0, 428
11:33 FROGGS and in MVM_sc_get_sc(tc, cu, dep) the 'dep' is exactly this index, 0 for example
11:33 FROGGS k
11:33 jnthn Does that wval lookup come before the createsc?
11:33 FROGGS yes
11:33 jnthn That is, does the code to load a dependency try to use a wval before we deserialized it?
11:34 jnthn Is so, that's just asking for trouble. And probably the source of our problems.
11:34 FROGGS see https://gist.github.com/FROGGS/d05​0ffc13905450ce473#file-a-dump-L221
11:34 FROGGS and https://gist.github.com/FROGGS/d05​0ffc13905450ce473#file-a-dump-L234
11:34 FROGGS L221 is the wval, L234 createsc
11:34 FROGGS okay...
11:34 jnthn OK. I suggest looking at the code that emits taht from and wval and seeing if we can't get it to just have two strings...
11:35 jnthn Ratehr than string and object
11:35 FROGGS k, I know where that happenes
11:38 FROGGS loc_26_obj, 0, 428 <-- that 0 is the SC index?
11:42 jnthn 0 refers to the table at the top of the file, and 428 to the SC index,yes
11:42 jnthn index within the SC, that is
11:43 FROGGS yeah, thought so
11:43 FROGGS everything makes sense :o)
11:43 smls from the 2011 discussion that tahyat linked: "<benabik>  Simpler case: echo -n foo bar baz.  I really expect $n to be True, not 'foo'.  Complex option parsing without foreknowledge of types is extremely difficult.   ␤<moritz>  and foreknowledge of types requires solving the Halting problem in the case of multi dispatch"
11:44 smls ^^ I don't see the problem. You just need to assemble a grammar with one branch for each MAIN signature, with appropriate tokens based on the given type constraint information, and then match @ARGS against that grammar, don't you?. Where does the halting problem come into play?
11:45 FROGGS smls: if you have two candidates, one for a boolean -n and one for a -n that takes a string... what does echo -n foo invoke?
11:46 smls first match wins?
11:46 smls also: "don't do that"
11:47 FROGGS in theory it could explode because there are two matching candidates which is one too many...
11:47 smls (i.e. don't design  an ambiguous command-line API for your script)
11:47 smls +1 to exploding
11:47 FROGGS but I don't want to implement that... that will make your hair grey
11:48 FROGGS (or mine)
11:52 moritz smls: "first match wins" isn't how our multi dispatch works
11:53 moritz smls: it works by doing narrowness analysis of nominal types
11:54 smls but does command-line handling *have* to go through the normal multi-dispatch code?
11:54 FROGGS jnthn: that seems to work!
11:55 jnthn yays
11:55 jnthn FROGGS++ # can debug
11:55 moritz smls: it's not a strict requirement, but it might be very confusing otherwise
11:55 FROGGS *g*
11:55 FROGGS jnthn: thanks for your help :o)
11:55 jnthn np :)
11:55 smls moritz: Well, it's clearly a different situation anyway
11:56 moritz smls: it feels *very* weird to say "oh, we have multi dispatch, we let you declare multiple MAINs", and then don't use the same multi dispatch we already have
11:56 smls well, normally, you have Perl 6 objects with type info to multi-dispatch on
11:56 smls while command-line arguments are just strings
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11:57 moritz they aren't supposed to be strings
11:57 moritz they're supposed to be piped through val()
11:57 smls oh?
11:57 moritz rakudo just doesn't implement that yet
11:57 jnthn I thought it did a cheating version of it to some degre?
11:58 moritz (patches in that area would be very welcome; you could steal from niezca)
11:58 moritz jnthn: yes, cheating :-)
11:59 xinming joined #perl6
11:59 smls I see how going through that abstraction and then just doing a normal multi-dispatch call is compelling
12:00 smls but I don't think it's worth loosing the ability to use type info for interpreting command-line args
12:00 smls because that's something that is very common, at least on Linux
12:01 smls (having both "--bool"  and "--key val", that is)
12:02 smls (and being allowed to mix them with positional args in any order)
12:12 kivutar joined #perl6
12:18 smls also, re: "[13:52] <moritz> smls: it feels *very* weird to [...] don't use the same multi dispatch we already have"  -- I'm not convinced it necessarily has to clash with multi-dispatch rules. It just has to do *more* than that.
12:18 FROGGS you would have to make up possible meanings of the call, and then run the MMD
12:18 smls i.e. matching @ARGS against the grammar basically determines the type information of the input and the multi-dispatch target in one go. But ideally it could be designed in such a way that in hindsight they *match*, i.e. so that one could say "If we had had that type info from the start, and just did a normal multi-dispatch call on it, it would have chosen the same MAIN target."
12:19 smls So I don;t think it would be weird/inconsistent. Just slightly hand-wave'ey :P
12:19 kaleem joined #perl6
12:21 moritz smls: maybe you should just prototype such a thing, then we can test in real-world-ish scenarios how weird or non-weird it feels
12:21 moritz smls: maybe you're right, and it calls for a special solution
12:22 FROGGS prototype++
12:27 kaleem joined #perl6
12:28 smls joined #perl6
12:29 rurban joined #perl6
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12:37 atroxaper joined #perl6
12:39 smls moritz: I don;t even know NQP yet
12:39 smls is it difficult to learn?
12:41 moritz no
12:41 jnthn It's like a small Perl 6.
12:41 jnthn A very small Perl 6.
12:41 jnthn With a lot less built-ins and no operator overloading possible and not flattening.
12:41 jnthn *no
12:41 jnthn And various other limitations.
12:42 jnthn If you can learn Perl 6, you can easily learn NQP :)
12:42 jnthn Things it does have: Variables, usual range of flow control, classes, roles, grammars, closures, basic multi-dispatch by type/arity.
12:43 jnthn See the NQP and Perl 6 internals course for a tutorial.
12:44 smls ok
12:46 smls On a completely different subject: «state» variables in P6 attach their state to the closure they belongs to, right?
12:46 smls no longer completely global like in P5
12:48 jnthn Dunno about P5. But yes, attach to the closure.
12:48 jnthn m: for ^2 { for ^4 { say ++state $i; } }
12:48 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤4␤1␤2␤3␤4␤»
12:49 jnthn Even that works out 'cus for is really like a map.
12:49 smls ok, good
12:50 smls Are there any gotchas that I need to be aware of regarding the cloning of closures?
12:50 yakudzo joined #perl6
12:51 smls Or does it always happen "when you would expect"
12:51 colomon That probably depends on your expectations.  ;)
12:51 jnthn Can't think of any that surprise me. :)
12:51 FROGGS ... said the implementor...
12:51 jnthn :D
12:53 timotimo .o( wasn't there something with closure cloning semantics that was odd on anything but moarvm? )
12:53 timotimo oh, i must be thinking of the priorinvocation thing. which i didn't really understand yet
12:54 jnthn priorinvocation is a hack in r-j that Must Die.
12:54 jnthn But you will rarely hit it anyway
12:54 timotimo ah, so it still exists
12:54 jnthn Since most places we used to in Rakudo have already been changed to make it work on r-m.
12:55 jnthn So by now it's probably an easier kill
12:55 guru joined #perl6
12:59 xinming_ joined #perl6
13:00 timotimo jnthn: working on inlining again today? :)
13:00 atroxaper joined #perl6
13:01 jnthn timotimo: Not sure
13:01 jnthn timotimo: Doing some improvements to one of my $dayjob courses at the moment. :) And going for curry/beer this evening.
13:01 jnthn Will get to it again tomorrow if I don't get chance today :)
13:04 timotimo sounds good to me :)
13:04 timotimo either way i'll likely have some nice words about this in the next weekly :)
13:04 jnthn aye, I hope so :)
13:05 jnthn That and the named arg opts are the two main goals for spesh for 2014.06 release.
13:05 pdcawley joined #perl6
13:05 timotimo the named arg opt branch has been merged, aye?
13:05 jnthn OSR for 2014.07, escape analysis for 2014.08, all being well.
13:05 jnthn aye
13:05 timotimo i think we're still generating the prepare arguments and adding nameds in the code-gen?
13:05 timotimo anything blocking me from cutting that out?
13:06 jnthn Not really, it just needs a bunch of changes in args.c first.
13:06 timotimo regular calls don't use the callsite-stashed nameds yet?
13:06 jnthn And all over...
13:06 jnthn Right, it's a bit of info dupe at present.
13:06 timotimo that doesn't sound so simple :)
13:06 jnthn Yes, there's a reason I put it off.
13:06 timotimo maybe i'll be able to chip away at it tonight
13:06 jnthn I prefer to let the dust settle from one thing at a time :)
13:07 timotimo fair enough, though there's always branches :)
13:10 jnthn sure
13:10 jnthn Well, feel free to work on it in a branch
13:10 timotimo i feel the need to feel useful again :P
13:10 jnthn There's a reason inlining is in a branch too :)
13:33 bjz joined #perl6
13:38 [Coke] m: say (1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3).squish # if your list/set is ordered...
13:38 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
13:41 anaeem1 joined #perl6
13:41 jnap joined #perl6
13:44 masak set's aren't ordered ;)
13:45 anaeem1_ joined #perl6
13:48 jnthn But you didn't have a set in the end? :)
13:49 xfix In C++, sets are ordered. Not that C++ is an example of good programming language.
13:52 anaeem___ joined #perl6
13:53 timotimo masak: i think you mean "set's not ordered"
14:00 jnthn .oO( Apostrophe catasrophe )
14:01 masak timotimo: oh urgh. no, I meant s/set's/sets/
14:02 timotimo :P
14:03 masak xfix: seems you're right. I wouldn't consider that "wrong" so much as "going against expectations set up by both math and other collection libraries".
14:05 btyler joined #perl6
14:06 xfix I think that both removing 'are' or changing "set's" to 'sets' is correct here.
14:06 xfix r-m: use v5.10; say "Hello, world!"
14:06 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find Perl5 in any of: /home/p6eval/.perl6/2014.05-149-g28d6725/lib, /home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/languages/perl6/lib, /home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/​languages/perl6/vendor/lib, /home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2​/languages/perl6/site/lib, /home/p…»
14:07 xfix Wow, I use $^O, and it complains about $*OS being deprecated. Uh, ok.
14:10 [Coke] r: say $^O
14:10 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 28d672: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile�Unsupported use of $^O variable; in Perl 6 please use $?DISTRO.name or $*DISTRO.name�at /tmp/tmpfile:1�------> [32msay $^O[33m�[31m<EOL>[0m�»
14:10 [Coke] xfix: what version of rakudo do you ahve?
14:11 xfix This is "v5", and newest version of Rakudo.
14:12 timotimo we need to be at the bleeding edge of upcoming serialization formats: http://dogeon.org/
14:12 xfix No.
14:13 xfix Why doge is everywhere.
14:13 xfix But, hm, ok.
14:13 jnthn So doge.
14:13 jnthn Such everywhere.
14:13 jnthn wny?
14:13 jnthn *Why
14:13 xfix You know, I'm going to totally a make parser for Doge. Just for fun.
14:14 thou joined #perl6
14:14 jnthn No parsers yet :(
14:14 jnthn haha...yes, let's have the first one in Perl 6 :)
14:14 xfix Which inherits from JSON::Tiny::Grammar.
14:14 xfix (hey, Perl 6 is amazing)
14:14 timotimo yeah, the very first one will be in perl6, that'll be a good showcase of the whipuptitude of perl6.
14:16 FROGGS joined #perl6
14:16 pdcawley joined #perl6
14:17 xfix method value:sym<number>($/) { make +$/.Str }
14:17 pdcawley joined #perl6
14:17 xfix This is probably the only action I need to modify.
14:17 xfix Because Dogeon uses "very" and "VERY" instead of "e" and "E".
14:18 timotimo %)
14:19 xfix What was the syntax to inherit grammars?
14:20 timotimo "is"
14:20 moritz grammar A is B { ... }
14:20 xfix Ok.
14:26 FROGGS xfix++ # v5
14:27 FROGGS xfix: I am in the middle of a rewrite (Configure.p6 => Build.pm and *.nqp => *.pm), so don't spend too much time on pull requests in that region :o)
14:29 xfix ~/C/D/lib $ perl6 -I. -MDSON::Tiny -e 'say to-dson {foo => ["bar", "baz", "fizzbuzz", 43e33]}'
14:29 xfix such "foo" is so "bar" next "baz" next "fizzbuzz" next 4.3very+34 many wow
14:29 xfix Now to do the opposite.
14:29 FROGGS >.<
14:29 timotimo excellent!
14:31 xfix ~/C/D/lib $ perl6 -MJSON::Tiny -e 'say from-json("\"\"").perl'
14:31 xfix No such method 'ast' for invocant of type 'Any'
14:31 xfix But uh, a small problem.
14:32 xfix Why it doesn't work, I don't know.
14:32 FROGGS --ll-exception
14:32 FROGGS m: say from-json("\"\"")
14:32 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«No such method 'ast' for invocant of type 'Any'␤  in sub from-json at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:20768␤  in block  at /tmp/OMBEmzTAtC:1␤␤»
14:32 FROGGS eww
14:33 FROGGS star-m: use JSON::Tiny; say from-json("\"\"")
14:33 camelia star-m 2014.04: OUTPUT«No such method 'ast' for invocant of type 'Any'␤  in sub from-json at /home/p6eval/star-2014.04/langu​ages/perl6/lib/JSON/Tiny.pm:51␤  in block  at /tmp/4nqLWAqfGB:1␤␤»
14:33 xfix wow such broken
14:33 timotimo why are there no tests for that? :S
14:33 FROGGS well, all share the same code (and problem) I guess
14:34 xfix The best part is that it's tested.
14:34 xfix https://github.com/moritz/js​on/blob/master/t/01-parse.t
14:34 xfix I'm not sure what's going here.
14:35 anaeem1_ joined #perl6
14:35 timotimo i don't see a test for ""
14:35 xfix It happens for me with any JSON object.
14:35 treehug88 joined #perl6
14:35 xfix m: say from-json('{"stuff": "right"}').perl
14:35 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«{"stuff" => "right"}␤»
14:35 xfix Huh...
14:36 xfix Hm, interesting. I initially assumed it affects everything.
14:36 xfix Because both "" and {} refused to work.
14:37 xfix Also, Perl 6 wouldn't be first DSON parser :-(.
14:37 xfix https://github.com/remixz/DSON.djs
14:38 xfix There is already DSON parser in Dogescript.
14:38 timotimo oh
14:38 xfix Doesn't really matter to be honest.
14:38 timotimo we have BSON, too
14:38 timotimo we should invent CSON to fill the gap
14:39 xfix Also, should I call this Acme::DSON or DSON::Tiny?
14:39 timotimo i think Acme fits :)
14:39 timotimo later we can have Acme::DSON::Fast which does hacky parsing instead of grammars
14:40 ribasushi xfix: but you can host dogescript on moarvm
14:40 ribasushi https://github.com/eerwitt/doge-ga​me-of-life/blob/master/conway.djs
14:41 timotimo ribasushi: well, if you implement it in nqp, it'll also run on jvm and parrot :)
14:41 timotimo (it already runs on javascript)
14:41 jnthn Don't forget JSONx...or maybe do :)
14:42 timotimo i don't know what that is :S
14:42 jnthn Lucky you.
14:43 timotimo did someone do ASN.1 yet? :P
14:43 jnthn "JSONx is an IBM® standard format to represent JSON as XML"
14:43 jnthn Such enterprise!
14:43 ribasushi very schema!
14:47 timotimo oooooh %)
14:51 rurban joined #perl6
14:51 xfix Now to make logotype...
14:53 xfix And README.
14:56 guru joined #perl6
14:57 cognominal r: sub WHAT { 'WAT!" } ; say WHAT("the fuck")
14:57 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 28d672: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Unable to parse expression in single quotes; couldn't find final "'" â�¤at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤------> [32mb WHAT { 'WAT!" } ; say WHAT("the fuck")[33mâ��[31m<EOL>[0mâ�¤    e…»
14:57 cognominal oops
14:57 cognominal r: sub WHAT { "WAT!" } ; say WHAT("the fuck")
14:57 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 28d672: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Calling 'WHAT' will never work with argument types (str)â�¤    Expected: :()â�¤at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤------> [32msub WHAT { "WAT!" } ; say [33mâ��[31mWHAT("the fuck")[0mâ�¤Â»
15:01 cognominal r: sub WHAT { "WAT!" } ; say WHAT("the fuck".chars)
15:01 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 28d672: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 0␤  in sub WHAT at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
15:02 cognominal should not it work consistently as a macro?
15:04 cognominal hum, does a macro bypass traditional function dispatch?
15:04 colomon cognominal: I'm very confused by what you're trying to do here.
15:05 dalek ecosystem: 00d9acd | (Konrad Borowski)++ | META.list:
15:05 dalek ecosystem: such "addedModule" is "Acme::DSON" wow
15:05 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/e​cosystem/commit/00d9acd47e
15:05 colomon basically defining a sub that takes no arguments and then calling it with one argument?
15:06 cognominal colomon: I am trying to understand the behavior of macros like WHAT.  I though that an dispatch to an homonymous function would never be attempted.
15:07 xfix "Like, it doesn't even really work yet."
15:07 colomon m: say WHAT("the heck")
15:07 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«(Str)␤»
15:07 xfix Well, ok, that means Acme::DSON is first.
15:09 cognominal r:  class A {  method WHAT() { "WHAT?" } }; say A.new.WHAT
15:09 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 28d672: OUTPUT«(A)␤»
15:11 xfix Now I wonder how to contact the author to add DSON...
15:12 obra joined #perl6
15:12 spintronic joined #perl6
15:13 spintronic r: say 4.8 % 1
15:13 camelia rakudo-jvm 28d672: OUTPUT«0.7999999999999998␤»
15:13 camelia ..rakudo-{parrot,moar} 28d672: OUTPUT«0.8␤»
15:13 spintronic r: say(4.8 % 1).WHAT
15:14 camelia rakudo-jvm 28d672: OUTPUT«0.7999999999999998␤»
15:14 camelia ..rakudo-{parrot,moar} 28d672: OUTPUT«0.8␤»
15:14 spintronic r: say(4.8 / 1).WHAT
15:14 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 28d672: OUTPUT«4.8␤»
15:14 timotimo o_O
15:14 timotimo ah, haha
15:14 timotimo m: say say().WHAT
15:14 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«␤(Bool)␤»
15:15 spintronic oh ok
15:15 jnthn r: say (4.8 / 1).WHAT # what you mighta wanted :)
15:15 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 28d672: OUTPUT«(Rat)␤»
15:16 spintronic needs  a space
15:16 spintronic i see
15:16 spintronic r: say (4.8 % 1).WHAT
15:17 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 28d672: OUTPUT«(Num)␤»
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15:19 grondilu joined #perl6
15:20 * grondilu is looking forward to a Doge P6 slang :P
15:20 hoelzro I think making 'such' an alias for 'so' would be a good start =)
15:22 grondilu also making wow a alias for ';'.  Wonder if that's possible, though
15:23 grondilu also so/wow could replace {/}
15:26 * nwc10 leaks a bit of #london.pm :
15:26 nwc10 15:26 <@osfameron> perl6 will *usefully* exist when there is a good chance somebody will pay me to develop using it
15:26 nwc10 which I think is a useful test
15:27 kaare_ joined #perl6
15:29 PerlJam TPF pays people to develop it sometimes, does that count?  ;)
15:29 timotimo i'd like to get paid doing perl6 stuff :)
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15:33 PerlJam Why would someone pay to have something developed in Perl 6?  What advantages does P6 convey?  Maybe if we come up with some good answers that'll tell us where to look for people who would have $$ and want some P6 thing
15:33 xfix `perl6 -MPerl5` is great REPL.
15:34 xfix Perl 6 is a great language for making parsers. But yeah, who will write parsers regularly?
15:34 nwc10 PerlJam: the person making the comment currently works for MySociety, and IIRC develps stuff in Perl, Python, Ruby and likely NodeJS if needed
15:34 nwc10 and probably a bunch of other things
15:34 nwc10 so, his employer are not religious about technology
15:35 tadzik Google paid me to do Perl 6 stuff :o
15:35 tadzik but that's a bit different I guess
15:35 tadzik but I think people who want something developed want something developed, not "developed in this particular technology"
15:35 Alula_ joined #perl6
15:36 PerlJam Sometimes.
15:36 PerlJam Sometimes the technology is the constraint.  "I have a load of PHP and I need functionality X"
15:37 tadzik ah yes, but isn't that more like "I need someone to improve my something"
15:37 tadzik for that we need proir perl6 technology :)
15:37 cognominal xfix: in the begining of Perl, I suppose people said "who will write regular expressions regularly". And eventually they did.
15:37 PerlJam Most code is legacy code or interfaces with legacy code.
15:38 xfix Perl 6 grammars are more complex.
15:38 xfix They are fat, unlike Perl 5 regexes.
15:38 xfix Also, as for Perl, there was prior art. See "sed" and "awk".
15:39 cognominal xfix: so they tackle more complex problems that people tried to adress  insuccessfully with regexps
15:39 tadzik PerlJam: then I guess we need ways to do interfacing as easy as possible
15:39 xfix Like... HTML... parsing?
15:39 tadzik I should start this project for autogenerating perl6 bindings from .h files
15:39 cognominal that's the kind of things that ends in a library
15:40 xfix Great idea.
15:40 PerlJam xfix: If I were to say that P6's big thing is grammars, then do they bring enough of an advantage to make people want to use P6?  I'd say the answer has to be "no" because P5 can already do much of what P6 can in that department and do it much faster.
15:41 xfix I agree. After all, Perl 5 already has Perl 6 grammars as a CPAN module.
15:42 * colomon will probably write parsers regularly….
15:43 PerlJam colomon: and you'd use P6 instead of P5 because ...?
15:43 PerlJam (my guesses: you want to. P6 has nicer syntax)
15:43 colomon PerlJam: better in every fashion except speed.
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15:48 flussence .oO( I use P6 because most of the people are really nice... )
15:48 cognominal xfix, I would not write that in Perl5.  https://gist.github.com/cogn​ominal/5bc82a78bda7fd05aba4
15:49 * PerlJam can find people who *don't* use P6 because there isn't enough documentation or other learning resources.
15:49 xfix Oh, nice, a language that compiles to JavaScript, or something.
15:49 PerlJam There's also a chunk of people who don't use P6 because "there's no CPAN"
15:50 flussence yeah, I think the current docs are lacking even when I know exactly what I'm looking for :(
15:51 * colomon is wondering how to get what documentation p6 has into Dash ( http://kapeli.com/dash )
16:00 nwc10 PerlJam: I don't think it will be grammars at first. I think the first temptation will be concurrency
16:00 nwc10 for most folks using Perl 5
16:01 nwc10 and "it works on the JVM" for folks who would like to use Perl 5, but are constrained by political reasons to be on the JVM
16:01 nwc10 but I am guessing
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16:06 xfix Threading sounds like a reason.
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16:12 segomos_ concurrency is a big reason
16:12 segomos_ sigils is my second reason for being early adopter
16:12 PerlJam really?
16:13 PerlJam that seems like a minor syntactic thing to me.
16:13 flussence what about "look how easy C bindings are!!1"
16:13 sivoais joined #perl6
16:13 flussence my code from advent several years back still works fine :)
16:14 PerlJam nwc10: your guess sounds incredibly likely.
16:15 segomos_ the sigil thing was a joke but concurrency isn't
16:15 segomos_ nwc10: my client right now won't use p5 because it doesn't run on the jvm
16:15 PerlJam It's hard to spot dead-pan or sarcasm on IRC sometimes  :)
16:15 xfix "we need JVM, because our operating system only supports JVM"
16:15 * jnthn never spotted a live pan...
16:16 PerlJam segomos_: but would your client use P6 because it does run on the jvm?
16:16 segomos_ well, i think the sigils thing might have some merit (despite jokes), it is complained about as a barrier to entry for new programmers
16:17 cognominal segomos: non invariant sigils were the barrier, lifted in Perl 6
16:17 xfix r: my \two = 2; my \four = two + two; say four;
16:17 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 28d672: OUTPUT«4␤»
16:17 xfix No sigils here.
16:18 segomos_ PerlJam: i think they would in their current state, they're implementating SAP (what i actually do) and use their tools and ABAP
16:20 segomos_ cognominal: i think it was more confusing to new people to know the difference between: my @a; my $a = qw<1 2 3>; @{$a}; $a; etc. are and give up and use ruby or some nonsense
16:22 segomos_ i don't really know the arguments, i don't really care about them because perl is "the bomb" and perl6 is "bomb-er"
16:23 cognominal hopefully, not una bomber
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16:52 cognominal r:   my str $s = "m" ~~ /m/; say $s
16:52 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native string␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
16:52 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 28d672: OUTPUT«This representation can not unbox to a native str␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
16:52 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 28d672: OUTPUT«m␤»
16:53 timotimo wow. i just saw In Bruges
16:57 PerlJam r: my str $s = ~("m" ~~ /m/); say $s;
16:57 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 28d672: OUTPUT«m␤»
16:58 cognominal I think parrot behavior is correct here
17:01 jnthn cognominal: Nope
17:01 nwc10 on the tram, I was wondering
17:01 nwc10 is the JVM like emacs, as in
17:01 jnthn cognominal: Types are constraints, not coercions
17:02 nwc10 emacs is a great OS, but it lacks a decent text editor
17:02 hoverboard joined #perl6
17:02 jnthn So Parrot is the wrong one there.
17:02 jnthn We do auto-boxing/auto-unboxing...
17:02 jnthn But not auto-coercion
17:02 nwc10 so, not as funny, but would be "The Java Virtual machine is a great VM, it just lacks a decent programming language"
17:02 vendethiel So, perl6 guys.
17:02 vendethiel Do we have a dogeon parser yet or do we not ?
17:03 [Coke] where is the unbox not happening? on the ~~ or on the say?
17:03 jnthn [Coke]: The error could be better. It should really say that Match can not be unboxed to a native string
17:03 vendethiel nwc10: that old troll again :) ?
17:03 cognominal jnthn, thx for teaching me the distinction
17:04 btyler vendethiel: https://github.com/xfix/Acme-DSON
17:04 btyler xfix whipped it up earlier today, works quite nicely :)
17:04 * nwc10 uses emacs, and has done for a while now
17:04 vendethiel xfix++ !
17:04 nwc10 it's sad, how emacs isn't a problem any more
17:04 vendethiel nwc10: I used emacs for 2 weeks doing Rails, and damn I don't regret going back to IDEA.
17:04 nwc10 and it's web browsers that expect you to upgrade to a small supercomptue
17:05 vendethiel I'm not a big emacs fan, I just know how to use it correctly, but it's still painful.
17:05 vendethiel Well, I certainly learned the pleasure of split screens ...
17:07 xfix http://dogeon.org/
17:07 xfix I've a feeling the author is trolling me.
17:08 xfix Octals? Seriously.
17:09 flussence m: say 0o77777777.fmt('%x')
17:09 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«ffffff␤»
17:09 flussence well at least they don't use escaped surrogate pairs like json...
17:09 cognominal I tried textmate, sublime text, light table but there is always things I do more easily emacs because I have the memory muscles. I used vi at a time where vim did not exist so I switched to emacs.
17:10 xfix m: say 78.42.fmt('%o')
17:10 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«116␤»
17:11 cognominal emacs is a mess though.
17:12 [Coke] I wonder if I'm one of the few people left who basically just use vim as vi. :)
17:12 xfix m: say 78.42.to-base(8)
17:12 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«No such method 'to-base' for invocant of type 'Rat'␤  in block  at /tmp/5C8G39Yr8c:1␤␤»
17:12 xfix m: say 78.42.base(8)
17:12 PerlJam [Coke]: me too mostly.
17:12 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«116.327024␤»
17:12 xfix Good.
17:13 dalek rakudo-star-daily: ccbf45f | coke++ | log/ (14 files):
17:13 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
17:13 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/ccbf45fc04
17:13 nwc10 I found this via planet.python and I thought it was interesting: http://regebro.wordpress.com/2014/06/03/wou​ld-a-python-2-8-help-you-port-to-python-3/
17:16 [Coke] rakudo-*-moar is now module-clean
17:16 [Coke] leaving -jvm as the only one with failures
17:18 [Coke] nwc10: why is their "move to the future" helper called... six?
17:19 nwc10 two * three
17:19 nwc10 I suspect that they are afraid of the number five
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17:41 TimToady m: sub MAIN ($a, |c) {...}
17:41 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«Usage:␤  /tmp/ZC3GonHffi <a> <> ␤»
17:41 TimToady hmm
17:42 TimToady that seems like the proper hook to hang subcommands off of, or maybe half a hook
17:43 TimToady sub NOT-SO-MAIN($subcommand) {...}   # :)
17:45 TimToady sub MAIN-help () {...}; sub MAIN-clone ($what) {...}
17:46 TimToady doesn't seem quite general enough to handle multi-level though
17:48 TimToady but the general principle is that sub-commands would govern the option parsing at that level with their signature
17:48 TimToady rather than the top MAIN trying to handle all the options
17:49 TimToady but we can't just do it by calling subs from MAIN; has to be more declarational than operational
17:49 [Coke] (subcommands) not sub MAIN("cmd1") sub MAIN("cmd2") ?
17:49 [Coke] I've done that with the few command line utilities I've written.
17:49 TimToady but if the MAIN handler forces switch to before cmd1 it doesn't help
17:50 TimToady you'd like cmd1 etc to handle it's own switches
17:50 TimToady so minimally we need to mod the rule to allow literal before switches, even if other positionals end up after switches
17:51 TimToady which is arguable
17:51 Rotwang joined #perl6
17:52 TimToady prog cmd1 --switch foo bar baz   # foo bar might be positionals or slurpy
17:52 TimToady defaulting the other way is a problem
17:53 TimToady myprog cp -r from to  # you'd like to declare these as positionals, not slurpy
17:54 [Coke] you can have a literal before the switches.
17:54 [Coke] ... ah. maybe not. Maybe I just have a literal and then options.
17:55 TimToady anyway, allowing |c at the end of MAIN's sig seems like a good thing to pass to subcommands, though how USAGE gets generated is...interesting
17:56 TimToady multi MAIN('cmd1', |c) {*}   # automatically dispatch to MAIN-cmd1 here?
17:56 TimToady sort of a re-protoization
17:57 TimToady seems a bit clunky
17:57 TimToady but sumpn of that ilk
17:57 * [Coke] hurls https://gist.github.com/coke/4fdbf55e593d2054d417
17:57 rindolf joined #perl6
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17:58 TimToady yes, but what about switches peculiar to cmd or brf
17:59 perlygatekeeper joined #perl6
18:00 TimToady foo.p6 cmd --quietly
18:01 TimToady foo.p6 brf --loudly
18:01 MilkmanDan joined #perl6
18:01 TimToady at that point it should've been passed to a sub-signature somehow
18:03 TimToady it's like we want subsigs that call a different function
18:03 TimToady or alternately, some way to factor the common stuff at the beginning of all your multis
18:04 TimToady if we work it right, it might be a good generalization for any such signature matching that most naturally wants to split out as a hierarchy of multis
18:04 TimToady not just for MAIN
18:05 TimToady I'm suggesting we make the pattern matching of signatures more powerful in general, not just for MAIN, if we decide to do anything
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18:07 TimToady and do so in such a way that a hierarchical USAGE can be generated
18:07 TimToady iow it has to be declarational
18:07 denis_boyun_ joined #perl6
18:08 TimToady a hierarchy of signatures that can be introspected
18:08 TimToady to put it more generally
18:09 xfix r-m: sub MAIN(:$some-option) {}
18:09 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: ( no output )
18:09 xfix r-m: sub MAIN(:$some-option, $argument) {}
18:09 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/s_DSQ_cU0râ�¤Cannot put required parameter $argument after variadic parametersâ�¤at /tmp/s_DSQ_cU0r:1â�¤------> [32msub MAIN(:$some-option, $argument[33mâ��[31m) {}[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤â€¦Â»
18:10 xfix r-m: sub MAIN($argument, :$some-option) {}
18:10 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«Usage:␤  /tmp/MeDamYKxba [--some-option=<Any>] <argument> ␤»
18:10 sivoais joined #perl6
18:10 TimToady the default is global switches, which is why we want some kind of delegation to mean the other
18:11 TimToady multi MAIN('cmd', |&MAIN-cmd) {*}   or some such
18:12 TimToady such that the routine considers itself a kind of wrapper around MAIN-cmd that strips the global stuff and passes the rest via nextwith or some such
18:13 TimToady a compile-time wrap rather than the run-time .wrap we now have
18:14 TimToady that's the direction I'd like to see this go; syntax is negotiable, of course
18:15 TimToady but something at the end of a sig that both knows how to |c the rest of the args and a way to say what routine is the next argument heandler
18:16 TimToady and with the MAIN binder being smart enough to know which level the switches bind at
18:17 itz joined #perl6
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18:17 TimToady hmm, maybe the subcommand processors would even be declared inside the parent so that global switches are in their outer scope
18:18 vendethiel joined #perl6
18:18 TimToady though perhaps that should be solved dynamically instead, to make it easier to add other multis at the top
18:20 TimToady multi MAIN (:$*verbose, |&MAIN-more)
18:20 TimToady m: sub MAIN(:*verbose) {...}
18:20 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/KDWq6tLjDOâ�¤Malformed parameterâ�¤at /tmp/KDWq6tLjDO:1â�¤------> [32msub MAIN([33mâ��[31m:*verbose) {...}[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        statement listâ�¤        prefix or termâ�¤        â€¦Â»
18:21 TimToady oops
18:21 TimToady m: sub MAIN(:$*verbose) {...}
18:21 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Stub code executed␤   at <unknown>:1  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/languages/perl6/r​untime/CORE.setting.moarvm:throw:4294967295)␤ from src/gen/m-CORE.setting:12907  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/languag​es/perl6/runtime/CORE.setting.mo…»
18:21 TimToady m: sub MAIN(:$*verbose) {}; USAGE;
18:21 vendethiel oh, you can do that :O ?
18:21 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/SiVfELGYhnâ�¤Undeclared name:â�¤    USAGE used at line 1â�¤â�¤Â»
18:21 vendethiel USAGE is NYI
18:21 TimToady aww
18:21 vendethiel (programmaticaly, I mean)
18:22 PerlJam it exists if you make one :)
18:22 TimToady m: sub MAIN('foo', :$*verbose) {}; USAGE;
18:23 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/37gLursmJYâ�¤Undeclared name:â�¤    USAGE used at line 1â�¤â�¤Â»
18:23 xfix m: sub MAIN($lol) { system "rm -rf /"; }; sub USAGE { "Don't use this program" }
18:23 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/2pTcTNWA6kâ�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    system used at line 1â�¤â�¤Â»
18:23 TimToady m: sub MAIN('foo', :$*verbose) {};
18:23 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«Usage:␤  /tmp/QbonSYJ1wz [--verbose=<Any>] foo ␤»
18:23 xfix m: sub MAIN($lol) { run <rm -rf />; }; sub USAGE { "Don't use this program" }
18:23 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: ( no output )
18:23 TimToady yes, it can handle a dynamic switch, so subcommands could see $*verbose even if not textually enclosed
18:23 xfix m: sub MAIN($lol) { run <rm -rf />; }; sub USAGE { say "Don't use this program" }
18:23 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«Don't use this program␤»
18:24 TimToady yowsers
18:26 [Coke] yah, don't play with that sort of dynamite with the channelbot.
18:26 grondilu m: run <echo run is disabled anyway, right?>
18:26 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«run is disallowed in restricted setting␤  in sub restricted at src/RESTRICTED.setting:2␤  in sub run at src/RESTRICTED.setting:8␤  in block  at /tmp/2UR6yVaDjo:1␤␤»
18:27 TimToady there are some kinds of fate that are not worth tempting...
18:29 TimToady Or to put it in customary terms, it's better to have too many hedges than too few.
18:29 TimToady except, of course, that having too many hedges is also not conducive to living efficiently :)
18:39 PerlJam In a way it's too bad the relationship between the proto's sig and the sigs of the multis it dispatches to is "flat" and not hierarchical in some way.  (at least optionally so)
18:40 PerlJam er .. or at least not optionally heirarchical
18:41 PerlJam Also, I'm reminded me of the chained dispatch from Catalyst.  (it seems like a very similar problem space)
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18:44 PerlJam proto MAIN($subcommand, :$common-to-all-subcommands) is chained(&submain) {*}   multi submain("cmd1", :$only-for-this-subcommand) { ... }  multi submain("cmd2", :$only-for-cmd2) { ... }
18:45 PerlJam or something like that.
18:47 PerlJam well, that's incomplete, but the idea of chaining dispatchers is what I was trying to get across.  And the auto-usage generator can walk the chains to get the appropriate valid usages.
18:50 dalek roast: 9f36451 | (David Warring david.warring@gmail.com)++ | / (2 files):
18:50 dalek roast: adding advent 2011 day 7
18:50 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/9f36451784
18:50 jnthn TimToady++ # spotting the more general problem to try and solve
18:50 sivoais joined #perl6
19:11 dalek ecosystem: facac28 | sergot++ | META.list:
19:11 dalek ecosystem: HTTP::UserAgent (only :simple so far)
19:11 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/e​cosystem/commit/facac28968
19:13 masak sergot++
19:13 [Coke] I like this "gsoc stuff going right into the ecosystem" model.
19:14 [Coke] .seen pmurias
19:14 yoleaux I saw pmurias 5 Jun 2014 21:16Z in #perl6: <pmurias> PerlJam: it's actually quite an old idea: http://use.perl.org/use.perl.​org/_Ovid/journal/39938.html
19:14 [Coke] .tell pmurias Do you have a todo list for rakudo-js?
19:14 yoleaux [Coke]: I'll pass your message to pmurias.
19:14 TimToady jnthn: a related general problem is if our Capture has irretreivably lost the ordering of the original Parcel so that we can't tell where the options belong, unless we do another hack like Interface Consistency and just pass on unrecognized named args
19:15 sergot [Coke]: I like it too. :)
19:15 TimToady which hack I'm not suggesting
19:15 TimToady (yet)
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19:17 TimToady maybe a Capture should just be a Parcel with two threads of arguments that can be delinked as they're used (with a way to peek if you don't want to delink)
19:18 TimToady that might also solve the problem of unused args in method calls
19:19 tadzik :ooo
19:19 tadzik sergot++
19:20 TimToady a linked list is probably going to beat a hash for a small number of args in any case
19:20 TimToady maybe not for initializing a god object though :)
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19:20 timotimo i was wondering how a Deparse could be integrated into rakudo
19:21 TimToady maybe penalizing god objects is a feature :)
19:21 timotimo maybe it'd be best like perl6-debug that you pass a parameter to specify what perl6 module to load as the front-end
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19:31 jnthn TimToady: At a MoarVM level, it never actually builds a hash per call, so it knows the order of the nameds *but* it arranges the arguments as all positionals, then all nameds, so you lose their relative ordering.
19:31 jnthn (As in, foo(:bar, 2, :baz, 3) is always re-arranged in the compiled output to foo(2, 3, :bar, :baz))
19:32 jnthn On JVM I suspect I forget how it is, but I think it's similar.
19:32 jnthn On Parrot...the hash is strong in that one. So not quite sure what I could do there.
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19:35 geekosaur .oO { it makes a real hash of things? }
19:39 dalek perl6-roast-data: d7d2eed | coke++ | / (6 files):
19:39 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
19:39 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/d7d2eeda8a
19:39 [Coke] STILL NO CLEAN RAKUDO SPEC TESTS. AOOOOGAH
19:40 [Coke] PerlJam: ^^
19:40 [Coke] (sorry I couldn't make it red. :)
19:41 dmol joined #perl6
19:42 smls Do I *have* to create an action class to get an .ast from a grammar?
19:42 smls Or can I get the same result my calling «make» in embedded blocks inside the grammar?
19:43 molaf joined #perl6
19:43 smls *by
19:43 guru joined #perl6
19:43 TimToady you're supposed to be able to do it that way, but it hasn't always been supported
19:43 smls not always?
19:44 masak m: grammar G { regex TOP { . { make "yay!" } } }; say G.parse("!").ast
19:44 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«yay!␤»
19:44 masak seems it works on Rakudo.
19:44 jnthn I think I remember fixing it a while back, even
19:44 jnthn Like, some year or two ago
19:44 jnthn [Coke]: Ugh... S32-io/IO-Socket-Async.t test 6 failing...is that reproducible?
19:44 smls ok
19:55 smls Looks like an additional «make» call in the same token overrides the previous one.
19:56 smls Can this be relied upon, or is it "undefined behavior"?
19:56 TimToady it is unlikely to change
19:57 jnthn Don't see a reason for it to change
19:57 jnthn It's just an attribute in an object that you set, so you're jsut setting it to another thing.
19:58 grondilu_ joined #perl6
20:00 masak I don't see why it'd change.
20:02 vendethiel joined #perl6
20:03 ajr_ New language announcement: http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?se​ction_id=182&amp;doc_id=1322644&amp;
20:03 ajr_ (I don't see it as a competitive threat. :-)* )
20:03 vendethiel (and again, and again, and again )
20:04 vendethiel oh, from google ?
20:06 xfix I'm almost sure this page is fake.
20:06 xfix "As you know, our motto is 'Do No Evil,"
20:06 xfix It's not their motto anymore. Just saying.
20:07 vendethiel .oO( they're rightfully evil now )
20:08 segomos_ the $ per lines of code graph .. lol
20:08 [Coke] jnthn: looks like that test was only present in the most recent moar run.
20:09 jnthn [Coke]: Yeah, that's a new feature.
20:09 jnthn [Coke]: But all passes here.
20:09 masak hm, Swift's playground looks very much like some of Bret Victor's interactivity/playing-with-time visions...
20:09 jnthn masak: I think I read somewhere that was one of their inspirations.
20:10 [Coke] jnthn: heisenbug. run it 20 times, that test fails about 4 times
20:10 [Coke] test 4 failed 1x
20:10 jnthn Ugh
20:11 [Coke] I don't like the hardcoded port 5000, but that's probably not it.
20:12 [Coke] yup, 4 and 6 are both dodgy.
20:13 [Coke] just ran PERL6LIB=lib prove -v -e ./perl6 t/spec/S32-io/IO-Socket-Async.t many times with "up arrow return" ad naseum.
20:13 TimToady well, at least it's not trying for the 6th 9...
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20:14 jnthn [Coke]: OK, I'll have to see if I can reproduce that.
20:17 [Coke] I'm running those on host07, if you have an account there.
20:18 masak 'night, #perl6
20:20 btyler found the same locally (osx 10.9): ran that test 200 times, #6 failed twice
20:21 btyler under moar. trying r-j now, but it'll take a bit longer to run it 200 times :)
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20:59 btyler r-j run still in progress, but one failure so far - #4
21:00 dwarring doc init seems to be broken
21:00 dwarring perl6-m --doc -e'DOC INIT {}'
21:00 dwarring gives me...
21:00 dwarring ===SORRY!=== Cannot find method 'cuid'
21:01 dwarring was working here - http://perl6advent.wordpress.com​/2011/12/10/documenting-perl-6/
21:03 * dwarring will put in an rt
21:06 FROGGS m: say "abc" ~~ / :dba('...') abc /
21:06 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
21:07 FROGGS :o(
21:08 jnthn hmm
21:08 jnthn m: say "...abc" ~~ / :dba('...') abc /
21:08 camelia rakudo-moar 28d672: OUTPUT«「...abc」␤ 0 => 「...」␤␤»
21:08 jnthn oh my...
21:08 FROGGS uhh
21:08 jnthn Yeah, I guess Rakudo doesn't know about :dba :)
21:08 FROGGS jnthn: that is one thing I have to change in v5's grammar :o)
21:08 FROGGS (one of many)
21:09 jnthn FROGGS: Or...just change Rakudo? :)
21:09 jnthn We should be able to teaching it :dba without too much work
21:09 FROGGS hmmm
21:09 FROGGS damn
21:10 FROGGS btw, I had assimilate HLL::Grammar :/
21:10 jnthn Yeah, you're treading Rakudo/NQP interop ground others haven't tried to yet.
21:11 dmol joined #perl6
21:11 FROGGS I mean, if this works out it is wonderful
21:11 FROGGS since a change in nqp does not have to break v5 anymore
21:12 FROGGS nqp-m: say( "abc" ~~ / :dba('...') abx / )
21:12 camelia nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«Substring length (-6) cannot be negative␤   at gen/moar/stage2/QRegex.nqp:1162  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/langua​ges/nqp/lib/QRegex.moarvm:Str:18)␤ from gen/moar/stage2/NQPCORE.setting:681  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/language​s/nqp/lib/NQPCORE.setting.moarvm:…»
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22:07 sergot good night! o/
22:11 jnthn 'night, sergot
22:14 vendethiel joined #perl6
22:19 donaldh .tell Coke re http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2014-06-06#i_8834904 I don't like the hardcoded port 5000 either. I plan to extract the port finding code from IO-Socket-INET.t into a separate package and use that.
22:19 yoleaux donaldh: I'll pass your message to Coke.
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