Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-06-14

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:09 Mouq xenoterracide: Cool :)
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00:29 japhb .ask timotimo I've got a hack day, and was planning to spend a chunk of it on perl6-bench.  Any new work on it in the last couple months or plans that I should be aware of?
00:29 yoleaux japhb: I'll pass your message to timotimo.
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01:06 xenoterracide https://github.com/xenoterracide/p6-annotations (thought I had left this working, maybe not)  perl6 -Ilib t/persistence.t    Method 'declares_method' not found for invocant of class 'NQPClassHOW'
01:15 xenoterracide jnthn: might know if he's around, was helping me work on this last time I touched it
01:18 dalek doc/redesign-sketch: 6b0849c | Mouq++ | sketch/html/ (2 files):
01:18 dalek doc/redesign-sketch: Finish off most of sketch for the index page
01:18 dalek doc/redesign-sketch: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/6b0849cdb6
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02:17 xenoterracide `oic I can't apply a role to ClassHOW that way
02:17 xenoterracide hmm
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02:45 dalek doc/redesign-sketch: cb26885 | Mouq++ | sketch/ (3 files):
02:45 dalek doc/redesign-sketch: Create sketch for type.html page
02:45 dalek doc/redesign-sketch: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/cb26885a3e
02:45 dalek doc/redesign-sketch: 251df05 | Mouq++ | sketch/html/ (2 files):
02:45 dalek doc/redesign-sketch: Add sub-menu on types page
02:45 dalek doc/redesign-sketch: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/251df05e18
02:51 dalek doc/redesign-sketch: aab3b69 | Mouq++ | sketch/html/type.html:
02:51 dalek doc/redesign-sketch: Fix sub-menu links
02:51 dalek doc/redesign-sketch: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/aab3b699ec
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03:25 xenoterracide perl6-debug-m -Ilib t/persistence.t
03:25 xenoterracide Start argument to substr out of range. Is: -1, should be in 0..0
03:29 dalek perl6-bench: 0c6dde4 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | timeall:
03:29 dalek perl6-bench: try to get at least 3 datapoints
03:29 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/0c6dde4aa0
03:29 dalek perl6-bench: 6427247 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | timeall:
03:29 dalek perl6-bench: Support for --min-scaling-points in timeall
03:29 dalek perl6-bench:
03:29 dalek perl6-bench: Add the --min-scaling-points option to timeall (default 3) and use it
03:29 dalek perl6-bench: to ensure that scalable tests are timed at enough different scales to
03:29 dalek perl6-bench: give a decent idea of each compiler's scaling curve, even when a given
03:29 dalek perl6-bench: compiler is performing very poorly on a particular test.
03:29 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/64272472a1
03:29 dalek perl6-bench: 18f2f85 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | timeall:
03:29 dalek perl6-bench: Merge branch 'minimum_number_runs'
03:29 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/18f2f85af4
03:29 dalek perl6-bench: 7b3d06f | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | bench:
03:29 dalek perl6-bench: Fix $*PERL<compiler> deprecations in `bench config`
03:29 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/7b3d06fcd9
03:41 xenoterracide so if that doesn't work how can I use the debugger?
04:09 dalek perl6-bench: e5cc12c | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | lib/Bench/Handling.pm6:
04:09 dalek perl6-bench: Fix dir expansion in explode-components
04:09 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/e5cc12c1e0
04:09 dalek perl6-bench: b4be496 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | bench:
04:09 dalek perl6-bench: Fix column widths in list-checkouts
04:09 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/b4be49634d
04:10 japhb xenoterracide: Last I tried it, the debugger was not working on moar.  I haven't had a chance to test it again, but jnthn does know about it (he's just hip deep in other Moar work right now)
04:12 xenoterracide japhb: well if I run perl6-debug-p -Ilib t/persistence.t I get the same error
04:12 dalek doc/redesign: 505e2e0 | Mouq++ | / (4 files):
04:12 dalek doc/redesign: Start getting handling in place for updated header
04:12 dalek doc/redesign:
04:12 dalek doc/redesign: This includes setting up the menu and sub-menus, though it currently
04:12 dalek doc/redesign: only displays a selection on the top menu
04:12 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/505e2e0ee2
04:13 xenoterracide japhb: so I'm guessin that means it's not a moar problem
04:16 japhb xenoterracide: Yup, stands to reason.  I just haven't updated my r-p in a long time, so hadn't tested that
04:17 xenoterracide japhb: I'm running the 2014.05
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04:19 dalek perl6-bench: c9a752f | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | components.json:
04:19 dalek perl6-bench: Don't use committer-only URL for rakudo-js repo
04:19 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/c9a752fed6
04:20 japhb xenoterracide: My r-p is 2014.04-118
04:20 xenoterracide hmm
04:20 xenoterracide myabe I should try rolling back
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04:33 dalek perl6-bench: 99bb04d | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | bench:
04:33 dalek perl6-bench: Fix tag parsing in `bench extract`
04:33 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/99bb04dc46
04:33 japhb Apparently there'd been a fair amount of bitrot since the last time I hacked on perl6-bench.  :-(
04:37 Mouq japhb++
04:41 atroxaper What dows it mean 'Asked to remove 8 spaces, but the shortest indent is 4 spaces' when i run some tests?
04:41 Mouq atroxaper: What tests?
04:41 Mouq m: "    test".dedent(8)
04:41 camelia rakudo-moar d8cd80: OUTPUT«No such method 'dedent' for invocant of type 'Str'␤  in block  at /tmp/l95hLipuL2:1␤␤»
04:42 atroxaper Mouq: my own.
04:42 Mouq m: "    test".indent(-4)
04:42 camelia rakudo-moar d8cd80: ( no output )
04:42 Mouq m: "    test".indent(-8)
04:42 camelia rakudo-moar d8cd80: OUTPUT«Asked to remove 8 spaces, but the shortest indent is 4 spaces␤»
04:42 Mouq atroxaper: I have no idea :9
04:43 atroxaper Mouq: :) if I do 8 spaces in my code then all is ok. When 4 then I have that warn.
04:44 Mouq atroxaper: Hmm... are you using heredocs?
04:44 Mouq q:to/XYZ/ ?
04:45 atroxaper yes.
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04:45 Mouq Maybe you're getting a LTA error from having your final line indented more than the rest of your heredoc
04:46 Mouq m: say q:to/XYZ/␤   x␤y␤   z␤ XYZ
04:46 camelia rakudo-moar d8cd80: OUTPUT«Asked to remove 1 spaces, but the shortest indent is 0 spaces␤  x␤y␤  z␤␤»
04:48 atroxaper Mouq: I have the same indent for q:to, for text block, and for XYZ.
04:52 dalek perl6-bench: c130109 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | lib/Bench/Globals.pm6:
04:52 dalek perl6-bench: Simplify calc of PROGRAM_DIR in Bench::Globals
04:52 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/c130109491
04:52 dalek perl6-bench: 3da7402 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | lib/Bench/Handling.pm6:
04:52 dalek perl6-bench: Minor whitespace fix in Bench::Handling
04:52 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/3da7402fd6
04:56 Mouq m: say EVAL "q:to/XYZ/\n   x\n\ty\n   z\n XYZ"
04:56 camelia rakudo-moar d8cd80: OUTPUT«  x␤       y␤  z␤␤»
04:57 Mouq m: say EVAL "q:to/XYZ/\n   x\n\t y\n   z\n XYZ"
04:57 camelia rakudo-moar d8cd80: OUTPUT«  x␤ y␤  z␤␤»
04:57 Mouq m: say EVAL "q:to/XYZ/\n   x\n\t y\n   z\n\tXYZ"
04:57 camelia rakudo-moar d8cd80: OUTPUT«Asked to remove 8 spaces, but the shortest indent is 3 spaces␤x␤ y␤z␤␤»
04:57 Mouq ... o_O
04:57 Mouq m: $*TABSTOP
04:57 camelia rakudo-moar d8cd80: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Dynamic variable $*TABSTOP not found␤   at <unknown>:1  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-1/languages/perl6/r​untime/CORE.setting.moarvm:throw:4294967295)␤ from src/gen/m-CORE.setting:12907  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-​1/languages/perl6/runti…»
04:58 Mouq I thought there was something like that that controls what a tab means in spaces...
05:02 japhb m: $?TABSTOP.say
05:02 camelia rakudo-moar d8cd80: OUTPUT«8␤»
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05:29 thou A simple tool (in perl6) to fork a github repo and add it as a remote: https://gist.github.com/sof​tmoth/1fe9843610f0ea6062d1
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05:34 rurban I added now the missing parrot NameAliases. Do you want old abbrevations also, like "LINE FEED"?
05:34 rurban icu doesn't support this so I added a generated perfect hash (via gperf)
05:47 thou .tell FROGGS rurban wrote to the channel (I think it's directed at you): «I added now the missing parrot NameAliases. Do you want old abbrevations also, like "LINE FEED"? icu doesn't support this so I added a generated perfect hash (via gperf)»
05:47 yoleaux thou: I'll pass your message to FROGGS.
05:55 thou .ask tadzik Do you have any feedback on https://github.com/tadzik/panda/pull/80 ?
05:55 yoleaux thou: I'll pass your message to tadzik.
06:06 atroxaper r: class R { has @.d = [1, 2, 3, 4]; }; say R.new.d.join('|');
06:06 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} d8cd80: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4␤»
06:06 atroxaper WHY?
06:06 atroxaper Why isn't 1|2|3|4 ?
06:07 Timbus because you assigned the first element of @.d to an array
06:07 atroxaper Timbus: Really?
06:07 Timbus m: my @a = [1,2,3,4]; say @a.perl
06:07 camelia rakudo-moar d8cd80: OUTPUT«Array.new([1, 2, 3, 4])␤»
06:07 Timbus its an AoA
06:08 Timbus which.. actually used to work as intended, i think.
06:09 Timbus yeah i was sure @a = [...]; was one of the perl 5 code smells that was supposed to be removed, just like %h = {...}
06:10 atroxaper r: class R { has @.d = <1 2 3 4>; }; say R.new.d.join('|');
06:10 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} d8cd80: OUTPUT«1|2|3|4␤»
06:10 atroxaper I understood. Thank you)
06:12 Timbus glad to help :)
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06:25 dalek doc/redesign: 6357aa3 | Mouq++ | / (2 files):
06:25 dalek doc/redesign: Use new, simpler index page
06:25 dalek doc/redesign:
06:25 dalek doc/redesign: Doesn't do anything with actual indices though
06:25 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/6357aa37b1
06:25 dalek doc/redesign: b9f8592 | Mouq++ | / (2 files):
06:25 dalek doc/redesign: Add indices for the language, type, and routine sections
06:25 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/b9f8592438
06:34 masak Timbus: I'm not aware that @a = [...] ever produced anything other than an AoA.
06:34 masak 'morning, #perl6
06:35 japhb morning, masak!
06:38 moritz good morning, masak & japhb & *
06:39 lizmat joined #perl6
06:39 thou .t
06:39 yoleaux Sat, 14 Jun 2014 00:39:54 MDT
06:40 thou good *, #perl6 :)
06:41 moritz wtf is MDT?
06:42 masak <colomon> masak: I'm puzzled by Text::Markdown
06:42 masak colomon: how so?
06:42 thou moritz: US/Mountain summer time (Mountain Daylight Time)
06:44 moritz ah, a US-isms
06:44 * moritz points out that the rest of the world also has mountains :-)
06:47 lizmat .oO( strange guys, those americans, having a timezone dependent on height ;-)
06:48 moritz lizmat: a typical off-by-pi/2 error :-)
06:48 japhb More like a timezone based on utterly dominant feature
06:50 lizmat Ah, a bit like BST then  :-)
06:50 lizmat need to pack, checking out of hotel, before getting back to FPW
06:50 lizmat &
07:08 dalek perl6-bench: b7bf31e | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | bench:
07:08 dalek perl6-bench: Pass --min-scaling-points through  to timeall
07:08 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/b7bf31e063
07:08 dalek perl6-bench: 35cd770 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | timeall:
07:08 dalek perl6-bench: Reduce ENOUGH_TIME default to 1.0 seconds
07:08 dalek perl6-bench:
07:08 dalek perl6-bench: Now that MIN_SCALING_POINTS guarantees even slow compilers will have
07:08 dalek perl6-bench: multiple points to plot, reduce the ENOUGH_TIME default to 1.0 seconds
07:08 dalek perl6-bench: so that benchmarkers don't have to wait quite so long for decent
07:08 dalek perl6-bench: results.
07:08 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/35cd77050f
07:08 dalek perl6-bench: 28eed23 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | / (3 files):
07:08 dalek perl6-bench: Start tracking work separately from scale
07:08 dalek perl6-bench:
07:08 dalek perl6-bench: Some benchmarks don't scale workload linearly with SCALE; for example,
07:08 dalek perl6-bench: the workload of '2d' benchmarks increases quadratically with SCALE.
07:08 dalek perl6-bench: This change allows benchmarks to specify their workload scaling formula,
07:08 dalek perl6-bench: and starts tracking work and scale separately in raw timing data.
07:08 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/28eed2398f
07:08 japhb Oooh, dalek's flood-prevention has been tuned, I see!
07:09 japhb Well, with that pack of changes, time for some rest.
07:09 masak japhb++
07:09 japhb .tell timotimo You might want to pull perl6-bench.  :-)
07:09 yoleaux japhb: I'll pass your message to timotimo.
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07:15 [Sno] FROGGS: you're latest output seems from p5's Unix::Statgrab - if you want, send me config.log (or check self) and see why it doesn't find the lib
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07:27 FROGGS [Sno]: this reports nothing: nm /usr/lib/libstatgrab.a | grep sg_get_process_stats_r
07:27 yoleaux 05:47Z <thou> FROGGS: rurban wrote to the channel (I think it's directed at you): «I added now the missing parrot NameAliases. Do you want old abbrevations also, like "LINE FEED"? icu doesn't support this so I added a generated perfect hash (via gperf)»
07:27 [Sno] FROGGS: maybe your libstatgrab is to old ;)
07:27 FROGGS thanks thou
07:27 FROGGS [Sno]: it is the one from Ubuntu 13.10, no idea what version
07:28 [Sno] configure checks for a libstatgrab>=0.90 which contains new, thread-safe API (0.17 is non-reentant)
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07:28 [Sno] FROGGS: dpkg -l | grep libstatgrab ;)
07:28 FROGGS [Sno]: in your P5's module doc I read: get_fs_stats
07:28 FROGGS Returns statistics about the mounted filesystems. The object it returns is a Unix::Statgrab::sg_fs_stats.
07:28 FROGGS so it returns a single object, right?
07:29 [Sno] an object containing a list of sg_fs_stats, yes
07:29 FROGGS ahh
07:29 [Sno] because I don't convert it into a perl-array automatically
07:29 FROGGS ii  libstatgrab-dev                                             0.17-1ubuntu1                              amd64        development files of library for system statistics
07:29 FROGGS ii  libstatgrab6                                                0.17-1ubuntu1                              amd64        library being useful interface to system statistics
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07:30 FROGGS I am not a C expert, but isn't it unusal to return a pointer to a struct when you in fact get a list?
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07:31 [Sno] FROGGS: each of those returned objects have a as_list() method - they give you a "real" perl list
07:31 [Sno] it's for performance reasons - why convert a long list when you don't need that
07:32 xfix FROGGS: I don't think you return an array in C. The pointer has to work.
07:32 [Sno] pointer and array is in C the same :)
07:32 xfix can return*
07:32 FROGGS I mean I expected sg_fs_stats **fsfuncsg_get_fs_stats(entries);
07:32 FROGGS instead of sg_fs_stats *fsfuncsg_get_fs_stats(entries);
07:32 xfix [Sno]: no, they aren't, unless you mean in function arguments.
07:33 [Sno] FROGGS: no, this would be a list of pointers - not a list of obejcts
07:33 [Sno] sg_fs_stats *f = sg_get_fs_stats(); while(..) { ++f; }
07:33 FROGGS ahh!
07:33 xfix When you define `void something(int array[])`, it's the same thing as `void something(int *array)`. However, this only applies to function signatures.
07:33 [Sno] xfix: try Google or K&R - they are
07:34 [Sno] xfix: check what "Unix"[3] gives you ;)
07:35 [Sno] don't let modern warnings from compiler confuse the facts how the code-generator works ^^
07:38 [Sno] the semantic difference between "int array[]" and "int *array" is the missing const - "int array[]" means "int * const array"
07:38 xfix Uhm, no, it's not quite as simple.
07:39 [Sno] so it requires an initializer (which leads to the assumption that it applies to function signatures)
07:39 xfix You can initialize arrays, but you cannot initialize pointers.
07:39 xfix At least without `malloc` call or something like that.
07:39 [Sno] int foo[5] = { 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 }; int *bar = foo;
07:39 [Sno] this code will work
07:40 xfix Yes, because int[] can be implicitly converted to int *.
07:40 xfix Also, there is a difference in how arrays and pointers are represented in memory.
07:40 [Sno] no, because "bar+1" is identical to "bar[1]"
07:40 xfix bar+1 is identical to &bar[1], but whatever.
07:41 xfix (for pointer/array types)
07:41 [Sno] the original language design (which results in C89) describes that in detail - see K&R for that
07:41 * FROGGS changes the topic to "Welome to #C! :P"
07:41 [Sno] the array notation has been added later for higher level language constructs
07:42 xfix Also, there is a difference in representation.
07:42 xfix Arrays are on the stack, pointers aren't.
07:42 xfix (unless they point to arrays)
07:42 xfix pointer values*
07:42 [Sno] not really - both are internally hold as a pointer - and the compiler has some meta information about foo
07:43 [Sno] see generated assembly code
07:44 [Sno] I think we're talking from different perspectives - you argue from language (how to express xy) point of view, I argue from result point of view (what assembly output comes out, what is identical to ..)
07:45 [Sno] it is important to understand that bar+1 is identical to &bar[1] - because the entire C memory management relies on that
07:46 xfix Also, there is sizeof.
07:46 xfix http://codepad.org/lVXN2HE9
07:46 [Sno] distinguish between compile time and run time (sizeof is compile time)
07:46 xfix sizeof is compile time in most cases, but that doesn't really matter, does it?
07:46 [Sno] bindling library (NativeCall) is run time
07:47 [Sno] oh, it heavily matters
07:47 [Sno] the compiler is gone when segfaults occur ;)
07:47 [Sno] run time matters
07:47 xfix When dealing with VLA, sizeof is runtime.
07:48 xfix Either way, pointers point onto something. Arrays are just simply allocated on stack, without any pointer.
07:49 [Sno] stack is just a pointer
07:49 xfix Well, yes.
07:49 [Sno] sizeof is always compile time
07:49 [Sno] it's specified being that
07:49 xfix sizeof is not always compile time.
07:50 xfix Just in most cases it is.
07:50 [Sno] C11 rational 5.70 page 106
07:51 xfix http://codepad.org/ntHkq5iP
07:52 [Sno] this is C11
07:52 xfix Has it changed?
07:52 [Sno] neither C89 nor C99 accept that
07:52 xfix This is C99.
07:52 xfix I know C89 doesn't accept this. In C89, it's always compile time.
07:53 [Sno] most C99 compilers accept it (did you try sunpro?), but when compiling in ANSI-C99 mode they throw errors
07:53 [Sno] official support came with C11
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07:54 xfix Oh, yeah, I forgot <stdio.h> in this example.
07:54 xfix http://codepad.org/VPOmCLWG
07:54 [Sno] lol
07:55 [Sno] variable length arrays have been introduced to get rid of alloca() :D
07:55 xfix Either way, http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/​sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1124.pdf - 6.5.3.4.2.
07:55 xfix alloca() is an extension, not a standard feature.
07:55 [Sno] sure
07:56 xfix "If the type of the operand is a variable length array type, the operand is evaluated; otherwise, the operand is not evaluated and the result is an integer constant."
07:56 FROGGS .tell jnthn I can call that, but I cannot access the elems of the returned thing: sub sg_get_fs_stats(CArray[int]) returns CArray[sg_fs_stats] is native("libstatgrab") { * };
07:56 yoleaux FROGGS: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
07:58 [Sno] xfix: ok - so it's C99 indeed, but what does it change?
07:58 [Sno] it simply says: even C99 is able to store meta-information
07:58 [Sno] but for compatible memory layout to C89 or K&C C, it has to store it somehwere else
08:00 xfix But if you want to think arrays are pointers, you are free to. I'm going to claim that chars are integers, because in most cases chars are implicitly converted to integers.
08:00 [Sno] xfix: and you're right
08:00 [Sno] see isspace or isprint for details ;)
08:02 [Sno] don't get me wrong - I like the new semantic features of modern compilers
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08:02 [Sno] but knowing the history and compat constrains preserve from faling in to many pitfalls
08:05 xfix You may know that signed integer overflow is undefined. But because of implicit conversions of `char`s, this isn't necessarily the case for `char`
08:05 xfix http://codepad.org/wGw2Y5vq
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08:05 xfix The compilers don't really care about `short` or `char`, unless it's a pointer.
08:05 [Sno] char <= short <= int <= long
08:05 [Sno] heavily depends on compiler
08:06 [Sno] check SunPro compiler - it cares
08:06 xfix Not quite. When `char` is `unsigned`, the `short` doesn't have to fit all values of `char`.
08:06 xfix Either way, `something += 1;` in this example isn't an overflow, because it's more like `something = (char) ((int) something + 1);`.
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08:07 xfix Well, `(signed char)`, not `(char)`.
08:09 [Sno] xfix: we had (1-2 years ago) a nasty bug in NetBSD on non-x86 which proves you wrong ;)
08:09 xfix Either way, even if arrays and pointers are mostly similar, you cannot initialize pointer with values. You have to provide an array instead, or some other pointer.
08:10 xfix [Sno]: oh, yeah, this gcc bug.
08:10 xfix It was fixed.
08:11 [Sno] there was an implementation which relies on your demonstrated "lack of contrain" and it bugged
08:11 [Sno] the fix was to use really an int
08:12 [Sno] xfix: yes, there're language level differences between array and pointer in modern compilers - but there's many old code out there which doesn't give a f*** regarding that
08:12 xfix Well, it's just bad code.
08:13 [Sno] meanwhile, maybe - originally, not necessarily
08:13 xfix Which probably triggers undefined behavior, and can do anything.
08:13 [Sno] entire ksh is full of that code
08:13 [Sno] and it works since 40? years meanwhile
08:14 [Sno] my intenstion was to get FROGGS being aware of memory layout in C - not compiler sematics ;)
08:15 xfix Either way, pointers and arrays in struct are different, and it actually matters here.
08:16 xfix In terms of memory layout.
08:17 xfix Even if you are going the function is never going to take array argument (like `(int[])*`), for structs it matters.
08:17 [Sno] indeed - http://codepad.org/4LtGZUeJ - that differs :)
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08:19 xfix Even if you are going to assume arrays are just constant pointers, when parsing the struct, it's something else.
08:19 [Sno] xfix: but you're argueing to far away from original problem: why returning "sg_fs_stat *" and not "sg_fs_stat **"?
08:20 [Sno] xfix: take a look into the statgrab code how that pointers are created - you might learn that it's not that easy as you demonstrate in 5-liners ;)
08:21 * lizmat checks whether she wound up on the wrong channel  :-)
08:22 [Sno] ah - come on, you beat nl:spain 5:1 - so we're on the wrong planet
08:23 xfix <[Sno]> xfix: we had (1-2 years ago) a nasty bug in NetBSD on non-x86 which proves you wrong ;)
08:23 xfix Found reference (took a while). http://stackoverflow.com/q/16125660/736054
08:24 xfix Yep, it's a bug.
08:24 [Sno] this is probably a good example why "array and pointers are same" is a better approach that "it differs": https://github.com/tdb/libstatgrab/commit​/dd23b3bedf85e59a4a2bc52fb1978c322a6b5cbe
08:25 [Sno] xfix: this is something different, I dig later and update you
08:26 [Sno] got to go for RL :(
08:26 xfix ok
08:26 xfix The discussion was probably pointless anyway.
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08:27 [Sno] maybe - when you're on a YAPC or similar where I am, too - I would be happy to show you at some examples why I thing "easier approach" > "complicated, but nearer at truth approach"
08:28 xfix I probably think in C too much in terms of spec.
08:28 xfix Thinking that someone may use computer where `sizeof(int) == 1` (this can happen on non-8-bit machines).
08:34 dalek rakudo/nom: 4d0bdd9 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | / (5 files):
08:34 dalek rakudo/nom: Move CompUnitRepo::Distribution to its own file
08:34 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4d0bdd9d5c
08:44 [Sno] hmm xfix - what do you want to show with your example for char overflow: http://codepad.org/cGZfv5L4?
08:44 [Sno] it overflows great :)
08:44 xfix That `char`s are `int`s in most contents, I guess.
08:45 xfix Usually, integer overflows are undefined behavior, but not in this case.
08:45 xfix The conversion from int to char is implementation defined, not undefined.
08:46 [Sno] http://codepad.org/lI8wYscd
08:47 xfix [Sno]: well, yes, but this program is undefined.
08:47 xfix `overflow.c:9:5: runtime error: signed integer overflow: 2147483647 + 1 cannot be represented in type 'int'`
08:47 [Sno] yes, there several behaviours
08:52 [Sno] I think the root cause of the entire discussion was a bad chosing of phrase to say: "returned pointer is intended to be used as a list of stats, because in C (*p) is the same as p[0]"
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09:07 dalek rakudo/nom: eb1d2fd | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | / (6 files):
09:07 dalek rakudo/nom: Put CURL stuff into a role
09:07 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/eb1d2fdb0c
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09:22 dalek rakudo/nom: b52642a | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/CompUnitRepo/Local/File.pm:
09:22 dalek rakudo/nom: Make sure signatures match
09:22 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b52642a17d
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09:37 FROGGS lizmat++
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09:51 dduncan Question: What is the best url to look at that tells how Perl 6 and Not Quite Perl differ?  I know Not Quite Perl is supposed to be a subset of Perl 6, but I'm wanting basically a summary of what parts of Perl 6 that Not Quite Perl doesn't have.  So far Google hasn't been very helpful.
09:52 dduncan Or basically a pair of lists, one showing major things Not Quite Perl does have of Perl 6, and one showing major things it doesn't.
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09:53 dduncan The only detail I found so far is Not Quite Perl doesn't have "list context".
09:54 dduncan I also know it lacks a lot of libraries or extensions.  But putting those aside, I'm asking more about the more central language features.
09:54 lizmat NQP doesn't have assignments, only binding
09:54 lizmat NQP doesn't have auto-vivification
09:55 dduncan lizmat, thank yiou, that is helping
09:55 lizmat basically all system features need to be called with nqp::foo
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09:55 lizmat all function calls need parens
09:58 dalek rakudo/nom: 1854d5c | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/CompUnitRepo/Locally.pm:
09:58 dalek rakudo/nom: Make sure we have a lock for each object
09:58 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1854d5c16d
09:59 dduncan Related question.  If one has a module written in Not Quite Perl, can one use it in a Perl 6 program such that it is treated as being Perl 6 code?  It is a true subset?  Or is Not Quite Perl code declared differently such that Perl 6 wouldn't treat it as Perl 6 code?
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10:00 lizmat there's basically two ways:
10:00 lizmat expose it to NQP and Perl6 as nqp:: subs
10:01 lizmat 2. get a Perl6 "handle" by calling nqp::hllize
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10:02 dduncan Thank you lizmat, I have no further questions now (especially as its 3am), but maybe another day.
10:03 lizmat yw, dduncan, and good night if you decide to get some shuteye
10:03 dduncan that is the plan
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10:07 lizmat I wonder how much sense it would make to have an "is locked" attribute
10:08 lizmat basically, it would add a wrapper to said method, and use the $!lock attribute by default as a lock to to a $!lock.protect( )
10:08 lizmat on the actual method call
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10:21 dalek rakudo/nom: a5aefa9 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/CompUnitRepo/Local/Installation.pm:
10:21 dalek rakudo/nom: Make sure CURL::Installation.install is omnipotent
10:21 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a5aefa9a2f
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11:35 lizmat m: sub a { say "Foo" }; my &b := &a; b  # so it's easy to alias a sub
11:35 camelia rakudo-moar 1854d5: OUTPUT«Foo␤»
11:35 lizmat m: method a { say "Foo" }; my &b := &a; b  # but how to do this for a method ?
11:35 camelia rakudo-moar 1854d5: OUTPUT«Useless declaration of a has-scoped method in mainline (did you mean 'my method a'?)â�¤[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/pps6TzMMBqâ�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    &a used at line 1â�¤â�¤Â»
11:36 [Sno] lizmat: thanks
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11:50 moritz m: class A { method a { say 42 } }; A.^add_method('b', A.can('a')[0]); A.^compose; A.b
11:50 camelia rakudo-moar a5aefa: OUTPUT«42␤»
11:50 moritz that's how you alias methods
11:51 lizmat moritz++
11:52 * TimToady wonders if that's subject to optimizer damage if the compose is at run time
11:53 * lizmat is thinking a twigil for & to indicate the type of code
11:54 lizmat but maybe that would quickly become a trigil
11:54 TimToady seems wrongish; other twigils mostly indicate strange scoping or binding
11:54 TimToady and type is just in the sigil
11:54 lizmat m: class A { method a { say 42 } }; BEGIN A.^add_method('b', A.can('a')[0]); A.^compose; A.b
11:54 camelia rakudo-moar a5aefa: OUTPUT«42␤»
11:54 lizmat maybe just BEGIN would be enough to prevent optimizer damage ?
11:55 lizmat m: class A { method a { say 42 } }; BEGIN A.^add_method('b', A.can('a')[0]); A.b
11:55 camelia rakudo-moar a5aefa: OUTPUT«42␤»
11:55 TimToady presumably, since optimizations aren't supposed to commit till FINAL check time
11:56 lizmat TimToady: any feelings about changing @*INC into an immutable Parcel that can only be changed with "use lib" ?
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11:57 TimToady the scoping of 'use lib' is less clear; one would expect it to be lexically scoped as a 'use', whereas it's obvious @*INC is dynamically scoped
11:58 TimToady otoh @*INC is like giving sharp knives to young kids
11:58 lizmat I tried to export @*INC into the lexical scope in which the 'use lib' is done
11:59 lizmat but for some reason, the value doesn't show up until runtime in the scope
11:59 moritz lexical 'use lib' doesn't sound too useful, IMHO
11:59 lizmat moritz: why?
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11:59 moritz it's a common pattern for a script to include the paths that are needed for the rest of the application
11:59 lizmat it is *essential* in my book
11:59 lizmat which would be in the outer scope
11:59 moritz and the modules just 'use' the rest of the modules, without caring where they come from
12:00 lizmat but that feels like p5 think
12:00 moritz it feels like separation of concern
12:00 moritz you don't want to spread path handling into every module of yours
12:00 lizmat in p6 we need to get used to the idea that each module determines more or less exactly, which version of the modules they use
12:01 lizmat no, I don't
12:01 moritz yes, but that doesn't equate to setting up the search path in every module
12:01 * TimToady thinks of official modules and unofficial modules very differently from each other
12:01 moritz which you'd need, if 'use lib' was actually lexical
12:02 lizmat TimToady: official, as in part of the setting?  or the core distribution?  or something like rakudo* ?
12:02 moritz TimToady: it's not entirely clear to me how and unofficial module graduates to official
12:02 moritz s/and/an/
12:02 moritz in particular, if it involves changing the source code, or if it's a question of meta data
12:02 TimToady when you reveal it to the "world" and give it an immutable identity
12:02 TimToady the defintion of "world" may vary
12:03 lizmat immutable identitiy as in auth/ver combo, right ?
12:03 TimToady when you're done playing with the current version
12:03 TimToady of course, under git, all identities are already immutable
12:03 TimToady yes, basically
12:04 TimToady if you want to edit a file and run it without a commit, you need local mutability
12:04 TimToady where "local" is the opposite of "world", whatever that is :)
12:05 TimToady at some scale we want to force everyone into the git model, not have mutable versions of module Foo floating around the networks
12:05 TimToady so building systems using @*INC feels ucky to me, from that perspective
12:06 TimToady it's find for little temporary stuff, but not good for large systems
12:06 TimToady *fine
12:06 lizmat I'd be in favour of encapsulating @*INC into an object with complete control as to its access
12:06 TimToady but that's my opinion after one jet-lagged cuppa
12:07 TimToady I just know that P5-thinkers are gonna wanna abuse @*INC on the large scale
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12:08 TimToady of course, I may just be confusing file immutability with path immutability here
12:09 TimToady policy on *which* repos to use tends to be site-wide, whatever "site" means
12:11 * TimToady goes to see if a second cup o' coffee makes him any less TZ-displaced...
12:11 lizmat indeed..  so maybe we need just a temporary, lexical @*INC functionality
12:12 lizmat or maybe allow for a :inc parameter to "use"
12:14 * TimToady notes that an import of a lexical into UNIT's lexical scope can import a dynamic variable for the entire application, so the decision about path scoping could conceivably be downstream from that
12:14 xenoterracide perl6-debug-m -Ilib t/persistence.t  # Start argument to substr out of range. Is: -1, should be in 0..0
12:14 xenoterracide anyone have any idea's about hat error? (happens with debug-p too)
12:14 TimToady .oO(it's not nice to start arguments...)
12:15 xenoterracide lol
12:15 xenoterracide alternative is there a Dumper function somewhere?
12:16 xenoterracide ala p5 Data::Dumper/Data::Printer
12:16 lizmat well, in general: .perl
12:16 TimToady or json
12:16 lizmat for internal debugging, there's the unspecced .DUMP
12:17 lizmat m: say 42.DUMP
12:17 camelia rakudo-moar a5aefa: OUTPUT«42␤»
12:17 TimToady would be nice to have yaml
12:17 lizmat m: say { a => 42 }.DUMP
12:17 camelia rakudo-moar a5aefa: OUTPUT«Hash<1>(␤    :$!descriptor((null)),␤    :$!storage(BOOTHash<2>(a => ▶42))␤)␤»
12:17 lizmat TimToady: patches welcome  :-)
12:17 moritz m: ''.substr(*-1)
12:17 camelia rakudo-moar a5aefa: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Start argument to substr out of range. Is: -1, should be in 0..0␤   at <unknown>:1  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/languages/perl6/r​untime/CORE.setting.moarvm:throw:4294967295)␤ from src/gen/m-CORE.setting:12907  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-…»
12:18 lizmat moritz: that seems legit ?
12:18 TimToady lizmat: I agree entirely :)
12:21 moritz lizmat: it does; I just wanted to reproduce the error message that xenoterracide saw
12:22 xenoterracide https://github.com/xenoterracide/p6-annotations
12:22 xenoterracide that's the source I'm running
12:23 xenoterracide if that has anything to do with anything
12:23 xenoterracide (just pushed)
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12:32 lizmat off do explain some de-cocooning...
12:32 lizmat *to
12:37 timotimo so, since it's @*INC, what's the use case for modifying @*INC and "calling" something with the changed dynamic include path?
12:37 yoleaux 00:29Z <japhb> timotimo: I've got a hack day, and was planning to spend a chunk of it on perl6-bench.  Any new work on it in the last couple months or plans that I should be aware of?
12:37 yoleaux 07:09Z <japhb> timotimo: You might want to pull perl6-bench.  :-)
12:37 timotimo japhb: yays :)
12:39 xenoterracide I want to add a role to the metaclass, how would I do that?
12:40 timotimo xenoterracide: you're doing some fairly magical stuff, aren't you? :)
12:43 xenoterracide timotimo: I'm trying to create a rudimentary annotation implementation
12:43 dalek rakudo/nom: 31d31c2 | jnthn++ | / (4 files):
12:43 dalek rakudo/nom: Include proper version info into perl6-debug.
12:43 dalek rakudo/nom:
12:43 dalek rakudo/nom: The missing version info seems to have caused problems at setting load
12:43 dalek rakudo/nom: time, presumably as it tried to construct some kind of version object.
12:43 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/31d31c2ec9
12:43 timotimo what does "annotation" mean here?
12:44 xenoterracide in this case it's a role with a hash that I want to put on the metaclass not the class
12:44 TimToady Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from what the founders never imagined...
12:44 xenoterracide because it's class level metadata
12:45 dalek nqp/qast_lazy_annotation: 3df5d0e | (Timo Paulssen)++ | src/NQP/Actions.nqp:
12:45 dalek nqp/qast_lazy_annotation: "has_ann" is better here.
12:45 dalek nqp/qast_lazy_annotation: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/3df5d0eb32
12:49 * TimToady officially values those members of the community who test the design to destruction.  :P
12:51 timotimo lizmat: https://gist.github.com/timo/e435363b9ecc25bb9495
12:51 timotimo ^ (and others, too)
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13:02 xenoterracide wait nqp has some variant of annotations or were they added while I was away being busy
13:04 timotimo i'm not sure what you mean :\
13:05 timotimo oh, that branch of mine?
13:05 xenoterracide https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/3df5d0eb32 < was just glancing at this commit
13:05 timotimo that's about qast nodes only
13:05 xenoterracide ah
13:05 timotimo qast nodes used to have a hash in them that you could just access like $my_node<foobar> := "hi"
13:06 timotimo but that meant having that hash for every single node, even if it would end up unused
13:06 xenoterracide ah
13:07 xenoterracide trying to do similar for classes I guess
13:07 xenoterracide so then I can build things to use them
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13:16 timotimo i'm playing around with the thought of adding a HTTP server implementation that does concurrency ...
13:18 timotimo also, i kinda want to see the logotypes of dependencies of modules on modules.perl6.org appear next to the module, maybe further to the left of the module's name?
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13:18 timotimo and then it'd be nice to have a logo for NativeCall
13:18 timotimo so that it's easy to see which modules depend on a C library and which are "pure-perl"
13:18 dalek doc: 1cc683c | Mouq++ | lib/Mix.pod:
13:18 dalek doc: Headings were switched in Mix.pod
13:18 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/1cc683c549
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13:27 jnthn timotimo: I think segomos++ has been working on a concurrent HTTP server, fwiw. :)
13:27 yoleaux 07:56Z <FROGGS> jnthn: I can call that, but I cannot access the elems of the returned thing: sub sg_get_fs_stats(CArray[int]) returns CArray[sg_fs_stats] is native("libstatgrab") { * };
13:28 timotimo oh!
13:28 timotimo did he start when async I/O was already in place?
13:30 lizmat I think so
13:30 lizmat he found the race I theoretically realised
13:30 timotimo ah! :)
13:30 lizmat and that jnthn has fixed / provided an alternative for since then
13:32 lizmat specifically: Supply.on_demand
13:32 lizmat (instead of Supply.new)
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14:05 dalek rakudo/nom: 9ccf3a9 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/CompUnitRepo.pm:
14:05 dalek rakudo/nom: Make sure we load one module at a time
14:05 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9ccf3a987b
14:05 dalek rakudo/nom: 1bff0d1 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | tools/build/gen-cat.pl:
14:05 dalek rakudo/nom: Remove all lines that match ^# \w
14:05 dalek rakudo/nom:
14:05 dalek rakudo/nom: These are all comments that we don't need in the concatenated setting (I don't
14:05 dalek rakudo/nom: think), at least not right now when we don't have line numbering going back to
14:05 dalek rakudo/nom: the constituent modules.  Hopefully, this will mean that there's less of a
14:05 dalek rakudo/nom: setting building penalty for adding some internal documentation to the setting.
14:05 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1bff0d1e7b
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14:11 lizmat after this, the Stage parse  for parrot when down from    : 145.547 to 121.377 on my machine
14:15 jnthn Wow
14:15 lizmat hmmm... actually, I think that's exaggerated
14:15 lizmat testing it again, I get a 122.897 for thie original
14:16 lizmat so it's more in the 1% improvement
14:16 lizmat I guess the other time my machine was doing something heavy as well
14:18 dalek specs: 3dabef9 | pmichaud++ | S99-glossary.pod:
14:18 dalek specs: Improve circumfix entry a bit.
14:18 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/3dabef92ee
14:19 timotimo lizmat: why not also remove ^\w*'#'?
14:19 jnthn uh, \s* ? :)
14:19 timotimo er
14:19 timotimo yes
14:20 lizmat timotimo: I found that ^# \w always indicated real comments
14:20 lizmat anything else usually indicated some code that was disabled
14:21 timotimo hmm
14:21 lizmat I thought there could be value in leaving that in the setting for debugging
14:21 lizmat BTW, some more rakudo testing revealed the parse differnces where just noise
14:22 timotimo so parsing comments is probably rather fast?
14:22 lizmat *parrot
14:22 lizmat yup
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14:22 lizmat the main reason for doing this patch, is that I want to be writing some more internal documentation in the setting
14:23 lizmat and not have to worry about setting parsing time
14:23 timotimo that does sound nice
14:23 lizmat (specifically on parrot)
14:24 lizmat recently I found myself looking at setting code I wrote about a year ago and not immediately understanding it, because of lack of comments  :-(
14:28 dalek specs: 2f45ae5 | pmichaud++ | S99-glossary.pod:
14:28 dalek specs: More glossary updates ("Synopsis", "TMTOWTDI")
14:28 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/2f45ae578f
14:29 lizmat pmichaud++ for committing again  :-)
14:30 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
14:30 yoleaux 8 Jun 2014 21:10Z <raiph> pmichaud: I'm trying to encourage a little cleanup of gh/perl6; please delete github.com/perl6/bench-scripts, /reports, and /nqpbook (for a bit more detail see https://questhub.io/realm/perl/​quest/534571eabbd0bed24e00006d and http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2014-06-08#i_8840143)
14:31 lizmat pmichaud o/
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14:32 jnthn morning, pmichaud
14:34 colomon pmichaud!
14:37 dalek rakudo/nom: d1be6d4 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | README.md:
14:37 dalek rakudo/nom: Mention --gen-nqp for parrot
14:37 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d1be6d4c77
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14:54 timotimo ohai pmichaud! :)
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15:07 dalek rakudo/nom: 36b1250 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/CompUnitRepo.pm:
15:07 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix CURL::File.new returning Nil one more time
15:07 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/36b125043f
15:07 timotimo i'm going to try to build the "combine latest" combinator for supplies now
15:07 lizmat this should fix S11-modules/require.t failures
15:08 timotimo it's supposed to work with a fixed set of supplies, rather than accepting a supply of supplies, right?
15:08 timotimo what happens when a supply gets closed?
15:09 lizmat nothing else comes from that supply ?
15:09 timotimo OK. and if all supplies get closed, the combined supply should close itself, too, right?
15:09 lizmat yes, afaik
15:09 jnthn Wait, there's two directions here
15:09 jnthn Do we mean "done"/"quit", or closing a tap?
15:10 timotimo oh, right, the tappers can close or the supplies can say "i'm done"
15:10 timotimo i was talking only about the latter
15:10 Rotwang joined #perl6
15:10 lizmat yup, if the combining supply closes, it should close all the taps it made
15:10 timotimo but i think the former could work the same way, too
15:10 jnthn If the tap of a combined supply is closed, then it should close the taps of all the supplies it was combining that it tapped to do so
15:10 jnthn If one of the supplies we're combining does quit, then we should close all the others and propagate the error
15:11 jnthn The semantics of "done" are more interesting, but I think it wants to be that once *all* of the supplies we're combining are done, then we know we also are done.
15:11 lizmat ++
15:11 jnthn Because the last value something that got done provided is a perfectly good thing to pass one
15:12 timotimo ah. quit is done + error
15:12 timotimo so if any supply quits, we quit. if all supplies done, we done.
15:13 timotimo maybe there should be an "ignore errors" combinator that'll turn any quit into a done :P
15:13 lizmat feels like a modifier to me
15:14 jnthn Oh, many error handling combinators are possible :)
15:14 timotimo "turn any done into a quit" :P
15:14 jnthn .catch(...another supply to tap...) is a nice one
15:14 jnthn .auto_retry($times) is another option :)
15:14 jnthn Depends what you want
15:15 jnthn Probably that latter one could just be called .retry
15:15 jnthn On a quit, it just tries to tap again.
15:17 lizmat jnthn: do you think these should be part of the setting?
15:17 jnthn .catch and .retry seem reasonable, yeah.
15:18 jnthn I mean, it doesn't make that much sense to provide a bunch of nice combinators but then not provide antyhing to help with error handling... :)
15:18 lizmat ok, and then retry with a :$times = 1 named parameters
15:19 uniejo joined #perl6
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15:31 woolfy vendethiel++
15:32 woolfy vendethiel just gave a nice presentation, mostly about Perl 6, and my French is not so good that i could understand it all, but most of it was very positive
15:32 timotimo \o/
15:32 timotimo vendethiel++
15:38 lizmat vendethiel++ vraiment  :-)
15:42 woolfy And this was his first presentation ever outside of his schools' classroom...
15:43 guru joined #perl6
15:43 woolfy He was amazing, like a pro.  Fast, in French, with humor, people did laugh at some funny stuff.  So, a star is born.
15:43 jnthn \o/
15:43 jnthn vendethiel++
15:46 rurban joined #perl6
15:50 timotimo for zip_latest (which is what i'm calling it now), what should be the initial values of supplies to be zipped that have not yet more'd anything?
15:51 timotimo just (Any)?
15:51 jnthn No, you must get at least one value from each
15:51 lizmat that's what I wanted to say
15:51 lizmat otherwise it's not a zip
15:51 jnthn "zip" being the big hint :)
15:51 timotimo fair enough.
15:51 lizmat but how would zip-latest be different from zip?
15:52 timotimo zip will only more a tuple (or zip-result) when all supplies have more'd
15:52 timotimo zip-latest will do one more for every individual more from the supplies
15:52 timotimo and just re-use the previous value for the other supplies
15:52 lizmat ah, ok
15:52 jnthn yup
15:53 jnthn $system_status = $web_server_status.zip_latest($db_status)
15:53 lizmat yeah, got ya  :-)
15:53 lizmat timotimo: please also spec it
15:54 timotimo can do.
15:54 timotimo may be doing @errands before committing anything, though
15:57 xinming joined #perl6
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16:04 timotimo m: my @values; @values[5] = 1; say @values[0]:exists; say @values[5]:exists;
16:04 camelia rakudo-moar 36b125: OUTPUT«False␤True␤»
16:04 timotimo it's quite nice to have the :exists thing that differentiates between "has ever had a value set" vs "has a defined value set"
16:05 timotimo should the tests go into zip.t or should i create zip_latest.t?
16:07 rurban_ @values[i]:exist requires a trie or such. or only works for the begin or end. Or does rakudo uses sentinel for unasigned array elements as with hashes?
16:07 timotimo i'm not sure how exactly the implementation works
16:07 [particle] joined #perl6
16:07 masak vendethiel++
16:07 timotimo lizmat did most of it, iirc?
16:08 lizmat yes
16:08 lizmat nqp::null is the key
16:08 lizmat timotimo: I would create a zip_latest.t
16:08 rurban_ do you use a special undef ptyr for arreay elements seperate from NULL?
16:09 lizmat and maybe name it zip-latest ?
16:09 timotimo the method?
16:09 rurban_ I see, thanks
16:09 timotimo well, i looked and found "schedule_on", so i thought it'd be underscored
16:09 lizmat well, schedule_on was done by jnthn
16:09 lizmat and he doesn't like kebab :-)
16:10 jnthn Well, I just don't think we should be inconsistent in core...
16:10 lizmat I agree, but which way are we going there...  _ or - ?
16:10 lizmat maybe pmichaud wants to say something about this ?
16:10 jnthn Well, until is-prime showed up, we were doing pretty well with _ :P
16:15 lizmat FPW shutting down&
16:26 Pleiades` joined #perl6
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16:39 molaf joined #perl6
16:59 * moritz is in favor of going all -
17:00 xenoterracide since I can't figure out how to apply a role to the metaclass maybe I just hack the feature into core
17:00 xenoterracide seems silly though
17:02 rindolf xenoterracide: hi.
17:02 rindolf xenoterracide: what's up?
17:03 xenoterracide rindolf: trying to figure out how to apply a role to the metaclass
17:03 * colomon agrees with moritz on all -
17:03 xenoterracide and then test that it was applied
17:05 xenoterracide seems that it's not as obviously possible as it is to apply a role to a classs
17:07 dalek rakudo/zip-latest-supply: b99a17a | (Timo Paulssen)++ | / (2 files):
17:07 dalek rakudo/zip-latest-supply: first implementation attempt of zip_latest.
17:07 dalek rakudo/zip-latest-supply:
17:07 dalek rakudo/zip-latest-supply: currently doesn't parse for some reason ...
17:07 dalek rakudo/zip-latest-supply: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b99a17a63c
17:08 dalek roast/zip-latest-supply: e9be5bf | (Timo Paulssen)++ | S17-supply/zip_latest.t:
17:08 dalek roast/zip-latest-supply: draft tests for zip_latest
17:08 dalek roast/zip-latest-supply: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/e9be5bf9b3
17:09 timotimo (switching computes)
17:09 timotimo (computers)
17:12 rindolf xenoterracide: ah, OK.
17:12 * rindolf hopes TimToady is not ignoring him.
17:12 rindolf Seems unlikely.
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17:29 japhb pmichaud, raiph: re: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2014-06-14#i_8871745 , please don't delete github.com/perl6/bench-scripts until one of us has had the chance to cherry-pick useful tests into perl6-bench.
17:29 japhb (Where 'us' is ... well, anyone, really)
17:35 denis_boyun joined #perl6
17:36 * colomon must resist urge to port p5 script needing fixes to p6…
17:40 colomon arrrgh, so much easier to program in p6...
17:44 colomon ah, heck.  problem was a typo in a variable name with no "use strict".  and adding it gives me screens of error messages.
17:44 [Coke] ugh, the default tabstop is EIGHT? heresy.
17:45 japhb colomon: These days most of the Perl 5 I write is in furtherance of Perl 6.  (He says, currently hacking the Perl 5 part of perl6-bench.)  :-)
17:45 colomon japhb++
17:46 colomon Pretty much any new script I write is in p6.
17:46 japhb Ditto.
17:46 * japhb can only barely remember what it was like to program in Perl 4.  Talk about a different language!
17:48 colomon same here.  But p5 came out pretty quickly after I started learning perl, I think.
17:53 xenoterracide is make clean the best way to do clean? seems insufficient
17:55 colomon make realclean, maybe?
17:58 timotimo "masak realclean" is even better
18:00 moritz moarvm needs 'make realclean' occasionally
18:00 moritz in most other projects (without submodules), git clean -xdf is fine
18:03 japhb I'm considering making some changes to the format of the perl6-bench timing files that would be non-backwards-compatible (meaning, old timings files wouldn't be readable by new versions of analyze).  Anyone object?
18:05 xenoterracide hmm, aight
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18:36 timotimo i've doodled up a little nativecall logo suggestion
18:38 timotimo http://t.h8.lv/nativecall_logo.png - should be viewed against a white background if possible
18:38 timotimo though i may add white borders around everything to ensure readability on all backgrounds
18:40 timotimo afk again
18:46 FROGGS o/
18:46 masak \o
18:47 * masak realclean
18:49 FROGGS O.o
18:52 FROGGS sooo, v5 written in pure Perl6 with a panda compliant build system can do this atm:
18:52 FROGGS perl6-m -Ilib --optimize=off -e 'use v5; say 1.1 + "24b";'
18:52 FROGGS 25.1
18:52 FROGGS now I'll fix its spectest/test summary target
18:55 FROGGS (built parts of a high sleeper today that looks like a castle, enjoying some relaxing hacking now)
18:55 xenoterracide trying to find the right refence for hashes on objects...if I do class Foo { %.foo } I should be able too do obj.foo.push( $key, $value ) right?
18:58 dalek perl6-bench: b9aaaf9 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | timeall:
18:58 dalek perl6-bench: Default test->{work} when needed, not always in canonify_tests()
18:58 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/b9aaaf9eea
18:58 dalek perl6-bench: f906151 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | / (2 files):
18:58 dalek perl6-bench: Get rid of 'cooked' timings
18:58 dalek perl6-bench:
18:58 dalek perl6-bench: As a convenience, timeall was computing 'cooked' (startup subtracted)
18:58 dalek perl6-bench: timings for each test and saving them to the timings files.  But
18:58 dalek perl6-bench: `timeall` shouldn't be cooking anything -- it's just a data gathering
18:58 dalek perl6-bench: program.  It's also not terribly useful since `analyze` has to handle
18:58 dalek perl6-bench: subtracting compile time for scalable tests anyway.  So just save the
18:58 dalek perl6-bench: compiler startup times in the 'run' section of the timings file, and
18:58 dalek perl6-bench: get rid of the 'cooked' computations and all the cruft that went with
18:58 dalek perl6-bench: them.
18:58 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/f906151773
18:58 dalek perl6-bench: 1482f59 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | timeall:
18:58 dalek perl6-bench: Add tags for test type (e or f) and size (micro or mini)
18:58 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/1482f597e0
18:58 vendethiel well. home.
19:02 atroxaper How can I use class name as key in hash or pair? In Java I can write ClassName.class.
19:04 masak m: class Balloon {}; my $b = Balloon.new; say $b.^name
19:04 camelia rakudo-moar 36b125: OUTPUT«Balloon␤»
19:04 masak like that?
19:05 atroxaper masak: mmm. ^name. Yes. That's it!
19:06 atroxaper masak: Thanks!
19:07 atroxaper m: class Balloon(); say Balloon.^name;
19:07 camelia rakudo-moar 36b125: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/E78570ikFwâ�¤Unable to parse class definitionâ�¤at /tmp/E78570ikFw:1â�¤------> [32mclass Balloon[33mâ��[31m(); say Balloon.^name;[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        statement listâ�¤        pr…»
19:07 atroxaper m: class Balloon{}; say Balloon.^name;
19:07 camelia rakudo-moar 36b125: OUTPUT«Balloon␤»
19:09 timotimo http://t.h8.lv/nativecall_logo.png - now with white borders
19:09 timotimo er
19:10 timotimo almost
19:10 timotimo now.
19:11 timotimo now without pink tinted background
19:11 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 695e450 | coke++ | log/ (13 files):
19:11 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
19:11 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/695e450e60
19:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: f738213 | coke++ | / (5 files):
19:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
19:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/f7382130d4
19:11 FROGGS I don't see a pink tinted back
19:12 timotimo in that case you f5'd late enough
19:13 timotimo jnthn: would you mind if i committed that icon as the nativecall logotype?
19:15 vendethiel (thanks guys :).)
19:15 jnthn What is it? :)
19:16 vendethiel woolfy++ lizmat++ cognominal++ everybody-there++
19:16 timotimo it's an N made out of squares and a circle
19:17 timotimo maybe i could/should turn the circle into a C
19:17 FROGGS and it connects things obviously...
19:17 * vendethiel got a camel peluche, a perl book, and quite some more ...
19:17 FROGGS no, the circle is P6, the old squares are C :o)
19:18 timotimo oh, right
19:18 FROGGS I'd give the shapes nice borders perhaps (same color, just a little brighter)
19:18 FROGGS and I would not add more details
19:18 FROGGS (like chars)
19:20 timotimo well, the connecting lines are black, so they get borders, too
19:24 timotimo f5 for the new version, FROGGS
19:24 timotimo ah, this lacks white behind the connecting lines again
19:25 FROGGS hmmm, the brighter borders do not mix well with the white background
19:26 timotimo try now
19:27 timotimo now, finally
19:28 timotimo hmm, that doesn't look so awesome
19:28 FROGGS true
19:28 timotimo now the center line is thicker
19:28 FROGGS does it look better (locally) if you make the background dark(er)?
19:28 timotimo the diagonal one
19:28 timotimo on black it looks okay
19:29 xenoterracide :/
19:29 FROGGS if you want to keep the white the borders should be darker instead
19:29 xenoterracide modifying ClassHOW to apply a role didn't work either, seems to result in a compiletime error
19:30 timotimo how is that?
19:31 timotimo with a black background it looks worse, IMO
19:32 FROGGS hmmmm, IMO my advices were crap :/
19:32 timotimo haha
19:32 dmol joined #perl6
19:36 colomon joined #perl6
19:38 timotimo i can't compile rakudo any more :\
19:38 FROGGS O.o
19:38 timotimo it seems to explode near something in the CompUnitRepo section
19:39 FROGGS ohh
19:39 timotimo never mind
19:39 timotimo configure.pl fixed it
19:40 FROGGS k
19:41 uniejo joined #perl6
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19:55 vendethiel joined #perl6
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19:58 liztormato vendethiel: You're welcome
19:59 liztormato On the kebab-casing: I'm also in favour of all -
19:59 liztormato Still 3 hours before we're home
20:01 SevenWolf joined #perl6
20:02 timotimo in that case, i shall -ify it
20:03 SevenWolf joined #perl6
20:04 liztormato I also feel this is a bit of eating our own dogfood
20:05 masak 'night, #perl6
20:05 liztormato If there are parsing issues with kebab-cased names *we* should find out about it
20:06 dalek rakudo/nom: f3ef613 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | / (2 files):
20:06 dalek rakudo/nom: first implementation attempt of zip_latest.
20:06 dalek rakudo/nom:
20:06 dalek rakudo/nom: currently doesn't parse for some reason ...
20:06 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f3ef613938
20:06 dalek rakudo/nom: fe867d6 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | src/core/Supply.pm:
20:06 dalek rakudo/nom: rename zip_latest zip-latest
20:06 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fe867d6c4c
20:08 benabik If-this-is-kabob-case, is_this_plate_case?
20:09 liztormato Just about ;-)
20:09 benabik CamelKebabs-on-a_plate?
20:10 liztormato Nom nom
20:10 FROGGS timotimo: what do you mean by "doesn't parse" ?
20:11 itz joined #perl6
20:17 timotimo that was before i Configure.pl'd
20:17 timotimo i didn't realize the parse error was coming from that, i thought it was my fault
20:17 timotimo speccing the method right now
20:17 FROGGS ahh, okay :o)
20:24 igorsutton joined #perl6
20:24 itz this came from twitter but is still funny https://github.com/search?q=%22%3Aw​q%22&amp;ref=cmdform&amp;type=Code
20:25 FROGGS hehe
20:30 dalek specs: 2a277a7 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | S17-concurrency.pod:
20:30 dalek specs: spec zip-latest
20:30 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/2a277a7b51
20:33 liztormato timotimo++
20:33 liztormato joined #perl6
20:35 timotimo http://t.h8.lv/nativecall_logo.png - with forced white background: not terrible
20:41 colomon m: say "A pple".subst(/"A "/, "A", :global)
20:41 camelia rakudo-moar fe867d: OUTPUT«Apple␤»
20:41 colomon why is this not working in my code?  :|
20:42 timotimo depends; what does your code look like, with what version are you executing it?
20:42 timotimo did you forget to mutate something?
20:43 colomon called it on an array
20:43 colomon instead of a string
20:43 colomon got the join in the wrong place.
20:43 timotimo well, in that case ... :)
20:44 vendethiel liz is crazy. In a terribly good way, but terribly crazy
20:44 timotimo :D
20:44 colomon vendethiel: that's quite well known in these parts.  :)
20:44 vendethiel that's certainly known by me now ...
20:45 vendethiel It was really cool, though :)
20:45 * vendethiel will learn p5 later
20:46 timotimo what do you want p5 for? :P
20:46 vendethiel knowledge.
20:46 colomon what specifically was she doing that was crazy this time?
20:47 vendethiel colomon: what she did to me
20:52 rurban joined #perl6
20:52 xenoterracide $type.HOW.HOW.add_role( $type.HOW, Annotated ); # doesn't work but doesn't throw an error
20:53 liztormato joined #perl6
20:54 liztormato I"m pretty sure lizmat didn't do anything to vendethiel
20:54 liztormato Yet.  ;-)
20:54 colomon dum dum dum.....
20:54 colomon (that was soundtrack, mind you)
20:54 colomon (ominous)
20:55 liztormato My turn to drive &
20:55 liztormato left #perl6
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21:03 * colomon is closing down his machine to take it to the Apple store.  May be AFK for a few days.
21:04 TimToady .tell rindolf I just seem to be zigging when you're zagging, but you can always leave a PM, you don't have to ask...
21:04 yoleaux TimToady: I'll pass your message to rindolf.
21:04 igorsutton joined #perl6
21:04 * TimToady is also vacating somewhat right now...
21:05 TimToady looking at the right ocean rather than the left one...
21:06 FROGGS that sounds about right :o)
21:06 TimToady note to burglars monitoring social media: there are still people at my house :)
21:07 vendethiel dang it
21:07 vendethiel I was trying to get one of your hawaiin shirts for my next presentation :s
21:09 FROGGS *g*
21:09 FROGGS yes, these shirts are noteworthy :o)
21:11 thou joined #perl6
21:11 Pleiades` joined #perl6
21:11 * TimToady mostly packed YAPC T-shirts for YAPC::NA because more of 'em fit into the suitcase
21:12 dalek perl6-bench: 0aead85 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | timeall:
21:12 dalek perl6-bench: Fix braino in previous commit
21:12 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/0aead855e2
21:12 dalek perl6-bench: 98abcc9 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | / (2 files):
21:12 dalek perl6-bench: Compute rates based on work instead of scale
21:12 dalek perl6-bench:
21:12 dalek perl6-bench: This "unbends" plots for tests whose workload increases superlinearly
21:12 dalek perl6-bench: with SCALE.  Turned out to be a smaller diff than I expected.  Half
21:12 dalek perl6-bench: decent design FTW.  :-)
21:12 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/98abcc9e90
21:13 * TimToady is going to be away from home both a week before and a week after YN
21:14 japhb So ... it turns out that r-m is indeed getting quite a bit faster since it was merged to the mainline.  However, 2014.05 and nom both fail to execute rc-forest-fire.  Might be something like bless(*), taking a look.
21:15 timotimo bless(*) was only giving deprecation messages i think
21:15 japhb Yeah, and someone already cleaned that out of the rc-forest-fire code, it looks like.
21:15 japhb Nope, this one is a real segfault.
21:16 timotimo oh my
21:16 timotimo well, forest-fire also gives wrong results
21:17 timotimo i've asked someone to look into it, didn't have tuits to do it myself yet
21:18 * vendethiel got a round tuit ...
21:18 vendethiel quite literally in both senses ...
21:19 * timotimo got a whole bag of 'em
21:19 timotimo but not the colored camelia ones
21:19 rurban_ parrot 6.5.0 will now also have workarounds for missing control character aliases with icu 5.2. Too many icu bugs to probe for. we just rolled our own hash for this, similar to moar
21:19 japhb "forest-fire gives wrong results"?  What do you mean by that?
21:20 TimToady doesn't propagate fire, I suspect
21:20 timotimo correct
21:20 japhb that's ... odd
21:20 * japhb wonders what rotted since last I looked at that
21:21 TimToady I played with that on the way to rewriting the whole thing, and ff makes certain assumptions that a set of subscripted references into another array will stay lvalues
21:21 TimToady or at least, will stay the same container
21:21 TimToady and something is replacing containers
21:21 TimToady so when it looks for surrounding fire, it finds only the original forest
21:22 timotimo oh, that'd be an oops
21:22 japhb Is there a fixed version on RC?  If I'm already breaking old expectations, I might just want to pull a fresh one from upstream
21:22 TimToady the one on RC is not comparable performance-wise because it does everything in-place with an extra state
21:23 TimToady (so is much faster)
21:24 vendethiel damn, all the browser hangs on firefox still ? :(
21:24 vendethiel (when one of the tab messes up, that is)
21:24 japhb TimToady: We could always have rc-forest-fire-{copying,inplace}
21:26 rurban joined #perl6
21:26 TimToady vendethiel: I'm about to give up on firefox, it consistently eats 50% of one CPU core for me
21:26 japhb As long as there were equivalent versions for all three languages, it would still give useful data.
21:26 vendethiel TimToady: I gave up about chrome. I'm not okay with it eating my privacy more and more these days
21:26 timotimo even with only nqp or only perl6 it would be helpful
21:26 atroxaper joined #perl6
21:27 vendethiel TimToady: There's NO WAY I'm gonna let a company decide which extensions I install on my browser and ask me 5$ to force me to publish it to their store
21:27 japhb vendethiel: You could always just use Chromium instead of branded Chrome.
21:27 vendethiel I really don't care at that point
21:28 vendethiel with 2 videos and a livestream it's taking 10% of my cpu; which is less than chrome would take with all the tabs
21:28 japhb Part of that difference is likely the process isolation that Chrome/Chromium do.
21:29 vendethiel takes a lot of cpu for somebody like me with lots of tabs
21:29 TimToady is there any way to tell which ff tab is misbehaving other than closing it and hoping the cached tab doesn't keep running?
21:30 japhb vendethiel: Yeah, I often have hundreds.  (Tabs Outliner extension)++ for making that less than insane.
21:30 vendethiel I don't have anything to manage it because all extensions I found sucked.
21:31 japhb Yeah, it took me several before I found that one.  It is limited mildly by the author being paranoid (in a good way), so it won't sync the tab outline between devices automatically, but other than that I find it basically necessary.
21:33 * japhb considers his next perl6-bench task, having knocked down the first 10 items on his todo list
21:38 TimToady hmm, looks like it's the Google News tab that chews most of the CPU
21:39 TimToady Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from an 800 pound snowclone.
21:39 rurban joined #perl6
21:47 TimToady -shouldn't-this-be-kebob-casing--o  ?
21:47 TimToady it should stick out on both ends...
21:48 rurban joined #perl6
21:52 igorsutton joined #perl6
21:57 kurahaupo joined #perl6
21:58 japhb Does the apostrophe represent that piece that slid to the side while skewering, and now is just holding on by pressure from either side?
22:29 atroxaper joined #perl6
22:31 xenoterracide joined #perl6
22:33 dalek perl6-bench: 38589ce | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | analyze:
22:33 dalek perl6-bench: Fix relative comparisons in tabular comparison mode
22:33 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/38589ceafd
22:33 mj41 joined #perl6
22:34 timotimo timtoady thrres a process manager in chrome
22:34 timotimo it lists tabs with cpu and iirc also memory consumption
22:43 denis_boyun_ joined #perl6
22:47 timotimo now with proper typing:
22:47 timotimo TimToady: shift+esc will open this "task manager" thing
22:48 timotimo japhb: can you look into making this sub-module-version-thingie?
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23:29 carlin m: say %*CUSTOM_LIB<site home>
23:29 camelia rakudo-moar fe867d: OUTPUT«(Any) (Any)␤»
23:29 carlin the behaviour of that changed in rakudo f412f8a1e1dedba
23:30 atroxaper joined #perl6
23:30 carlin in e030a7bbbc49fb it gave CompUnitRepo::Local::Installation(/home/ca​rlin/rakudo/install/languages/perl6/site) CompUnitRepo::Local::Installation(/hom​e/carlin/.perl6/2014.05-175-ge030a7b)
23:31 carlin panda's bootstrap is broken because now `for grep(*.defined, $destdir, %*CUSTOM_LIB<site home>) -> $prefix {` does nothing unless the directories already exist
23:31 vendethiel FROGGS: ping
23:32 timotimo ah, didn't lizmat or froggs make a change to not have directories show up if they don't exist on the FS?
23:32 carlin yeah I'm guessing that's what f412f8a1e1dedbaf did
23:33 timotimo so here we have a reason why we would be interested in those directories showing up
23:43 liztormato joined #perl6
23:43 * liztormato is home
23:44 liztormato Will fix custom lib setting tomorrow
23:44 woolfy joined #perl6
23:45 liztormato carlin: Is that soon enough?
23:45 carlin that's fine, no hurry
23:46 carlin just something I found when trying to install panda
23:46 jnthn Glad you got back safely, liztormato :)
23:46 liztormato Thanks for the report
23:46 carlin it's easy enough to checkout an earlier revision
23:47 liztormato jnthn: It's good to be back home safely
23:47 jnthn :)
23:48 liztormato Sleep now&
23:48 liztormato left #perl6
23:53 japhb timotimo: What sub-module-version-thingie are you referring to?

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