Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-06-15

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:01 dalek perl6-bench: 7877717 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | analyze:
00:01 dalek perl6-bench: Add missing docs for --ignore-compile
00:01 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/7877717908
00:01 dalek perl6-bench: 9851dbc | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | / (2 files):
00:01 dalek perl6-bench: Add perl5/parse-json using JSON::PP
00:01 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/9851dbc4cb
00:01 dalek perl6-bench: 2252077 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | analyze:
00:01 dalek perl6-bench: Compute an overall 'score' across all tests
00:01 dalek perl6-bench:
00:01 dalek perl6-bench: The score is computed using the geometric mean of relative rates
00:01 dalek perl6-bench: compared to a reference compiler (the first one in the timings file).
00:01 dalek perl6-bench: It is expressed as "% of reference compiler's overall speed", so the
00:01 dalek perl6-bench: reference compiler has a score of 100; higher is better, so 200 would
00:01 dalek perl6-bench: be twice as fast "overall" compared to the reference.
00:01 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/22520775f7
00:06 timotimo japhb: the part where you write something like rakudo-moar/foo/bar/baz and it gives you a moarvm-foo, nqp-bar, rakudo-baz (or the other way around)
00:20 japhb timotimo: Ah yes, I understand.  I've added it to my list.  We'll see how far I get on the list before hack day is up.  :-)
00:28 timotimo cool, thanks :)
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01:14 japhb So it turns out the rc-forest-fire crashing is very dependent on board size.  If I do 'perl6 perl6/rc-forest-fire 7 7 100' (where perl6 is r-m) it doesn't crash for me, and goes 100 generations as expected.
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01:14 japhb But if I change to 8 8, it crashes sometimes, and with 9 9 it crashes reliably and quickly.
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01:30 japhb Two more tidbits: `perl6 --optimize=0` doesn't change anything about the crash behavior.  Also, when it is flaky (as with 8 8 board size), it either crashes quickly (in the first 2-4 frames), or doesn't crash at all.  There aren't any crashes that happen after after a few dozen frames.
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02:14 dalek perl6-bench: 9733fca | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | bench:
02:14 dalek perl6-bench: Remove other 'open ... :p' use in bench
02:14 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/9733fca06b
02:14 dalek perl6-bench: ff533f6 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | bench:
02:14 dalek perl6-bench: Add list-branches and list-tags commands to bench
02:14 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/ff533f6bad
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02:23 dalek perl6-bench: ebc6de8 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | analyze:
02:23 dalek perl6-bench: Remove accidently committed debugging output
02:23 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/ebc6de8c79
02:25 dalek perl6-bench: 3485620 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | analyze:
02:25 dalek perl6-bench: Add missing undef guards in analyze
02:25 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/3485620607
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03:11 dalek perl6-bench: 1d5f665 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | analyze:
03:11 dalek perl6-bench: Add a convenience sub for building English lists
03:11 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/1d5f665af5
03:11 dalek perl6-bench: b90b844 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | analyze:
03:11 dalek perl6-bench: Show summary scores in table view if available
03:11 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/b90b84401f
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04:12 Mouq o/
04:16 dalek perl6-bench: 4b8acf2 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | timeall:
04:16 dalek perl6-bench: Fix formatting in `timeall --list-variants`
04:16 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/4b8acf240e
04:16 dalek perl6-bench: 655c508 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | timeall:
04:16 dalek perl6-bench: First step to tracking compiler commit dates
04:16 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/655c50829d
04:17 japhb And with that, it sounds like hack day is over.
04:18 japhb .tell timotimo Sorry I didn't get all the way to your request, but hopefully the changes today will be useful anyway.  :-)
04:18 yoleaux japhb: I'll pass your message to timotimo.
04:24 dalek doc/redesign: 1cc683c | Mouq++ | lib/Mix.pod:
04:24 dalek doc/redesign: Headings were switched in Mix.pod
04:24 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/1cc683c549
04:24 dalek doc/redesign: 477f056 | Mouq++ | lib/Mix.pod:
04:24 dalek doc/redesign: Merge branch 'master' into redesign
04:24 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/477f0561b5
04:24 dalek doc/redesign: f69d8bd | Mouq++ | html/css/style.css:
04:24 dalek doc/redesign: Make selected menu-item more distinct
04:24 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f69d8bd66a
04:24 dalek doc/redesign: de6db9d | Mouq++ | lib/ (336 files):
04:24 dalek doc/redesign: Move type docs to lib/Type and lang docs to lib/Language
04:24 dalek doc/redesign:
04:24 dalek doc/redesign: (htmlify.p6 is not yet updated for this change)
04:25 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/de6db9da51
04:25 Mouq japhb++
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04:57 dalek doc/redesign: 9557eb6 | Mouq++ | / (3 files):
04:57 dalek doc/redesign: Adjust htmlify.p6 to account for moved docs
04:57 dalek doc/redesign:
04:57 dalek doc/redesign: Still needs some abstracting to deal with the hypothetical lib/Routine
04:57 dalek doc/redesign: and lib/Module dirs, but this works fine for now
04:57 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/9557eb6899
05:01 Mouq That's all I'm doing tonight. I had a long day
05:01 Mouq \o
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07:36 moritz Mouq++
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09:23 lizmat good *, #perl6!
09:23 lizmat timotimo: could it be that you forgot to commit Missing test file: t/spec/S17-supply/zip_latest.t to roast ?
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09:56 dalek roast: 00f7e30 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | S17-supply/zip_latest.t:
09:56 dalek roast: commit missing file.
09:56 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/00f7e30053
09:57 timotimo my apologies
09:57 yoleaux 04:18Z <japhb> timotimo: Sorry I didn't get all the way to your request, but hopefully the changes today will be useful anyway.  :-)
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10:04 timotimo that's all right :)
10:13 jnthn ==> Bootstrapping Panda
10:13 jnthn No such method 'path' for invocant of type 'CompUnitRepo::Local::Installation' in method destdir at C:\consulting\perl6\panda\lib/Panda/Installer.pm:22
10:13 jnthn :(
10:26 timotimo isn't git pull enough to fix that?
10:29 jnthn seems not
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10:29 jnthn Have latest Panda and Rakudo.
10:29 timotimo dang.
10:30 carlin that panda failure was caused by non-existant libs being removed from @*INC
10:30 timotimo which one is that?
10:31 carlin http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-06-14#i_8873146
10:31 timotimo the one you reporte or the one jnthn just ran into?
10:31 timotimo ah, yes
10:31 carlin they're the same one
10:31 timotimo did lizmat answer about that yet?
10:31 jnthn I think she said she'd look at it today
10:31 timotimo good
10:38 lizmat fixing now
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10:54 dalek rakudo/nom: 6572438 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Inc.pm:
10:54 dalek rakudo/nom: Quick fix for panda breakage
10:54 dalek rakudo/nom:
10:54 dalek rakudo/nom: Instead of not setting %CUSTOM_LIB<foo> if the directory does not exist,
10:54 dalek rakudo/nom: it will now just put the path in there (rather than the instantiated
10:54 dalek rakudo/nom: CURL object like before I broke panda).
10:54 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6572438a47
10:55 lizmat hope that this fixes things
10:55 lizmat if not, I guess I'll have to revert these patches  :-(
10:55 vendethiel lizmat: did you actually found out why that duplicated function was there :P ?
10:56 lizmat no
10:56 carlin hmm no
10:56 lizmat doesn't fix?
10:56 carlin I was getting that error jnthn was too but it looks like it was a different problem
10:57 carlin introduced in eb1d2fdb I think
10:57 lizmat that would be strange
10:58 lizmat that commit is merely putting identical code into a role and using composing it into the classes
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11:01 carlin This is perl6 version 2014.05-179-geb1d2fd built on MoarVM version 2014.05-18-g6b19b4b
11:01 carlin > %*CUSTOM_LIB<site>.path
11:01 carlin Method 'path' not found for invocant of class 'CompUnitRepo::Local::Installation'
11:02 carlin This is perl6 version 2014.05-178-g4d0bdd9 built on MoarVM version 2014.05-18-g6b19b4b
11:02 carlin > %*CUSTOM_LIB<site>.path
11:02 carlin IO::Path</home/carlin/rakudo/install/languages/perl6/site>
11:11 dalek rakudo/nom: 331bfc8 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Inc.pm:
11:11 dalek rakudo/nom: Oops, missed one priming with path
11:11 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/331bfc82bb
11:11 dalek rakudo/nom: 7f22e92 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/CompUnitRepo/Locally.pm:
11:11 dalek rakudo/nom: Expose CUR::Locally.path
11:11 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7f22e9221e
11:11 lizmat carlin: this seems to fix that for me
11:11 lizmat $ 6 'say %*CUSTOM_LIB<site>.path'
11:11 lizmat IO::Path</Users/liz/Github/rakudo.moar/install/languages/perl6/site>
11:13 lizmat so, this means that %*CUSTOM_LIB is either populated with an instantiated CURL object (that now allows .path)
11:13 lizmat or it is just a Str (which also allows .path)
11:14 lizmat @*INC just contains the CURL objects of directories that actually exist at startup time
11:15 carlin yip all works here now
11:15 carlin lizmat++
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11:26 pippo grammar G {rule TOP {^AA' '<one> <two> <three>$}; regex one {[\w+' ']*}; regex
11:27 timotimo that's not all of it, is it? :)
11:27 pippo grammar G {rule TOP {^AA' '<one> <two> <three>$}; regex one {[\w+' ']*}; regex two {''||[\w+' ']*}; regex three {[\w+' ']+}}; say G.parse("AA 111 11 11    3 3 333 ");
11:27 pippo m: grammar G {rule TOP {^AA' '<one> <two> <three>$}; regex one {[\w+' ']*}; regex two {''||[\w+' ']*}; regex three {[\w+' ']+}}; say G.parse("AA 111 11 11    3 3 333 ");
11:27 camelia rakudo-moar fe867d: OUTPUT«「AA 111 11 11    3 3 333 」␤ one => 「111 11 11 」␤ two => 「」␤ three => 「3 3 333 」␤␤»
11:28 timotimo well, that certainly looks like it worked :)
11:28 pippo timotimo: no it was not :-))
11:28 timotimo in that case i don't know what the problem is :)
11:30 pippo .tell mouq: I found the solution for http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-06-10#i_8850807 see http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-06-15#i_8873951
11:30 yoleaux pippo: What kind of a name is "mouq:"?!
11:30 pippo .tell mouq I found the solution for http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-06-10#i_8850807 see http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-06-15#i_8873951
11:30 yoleaux pippo: I'll pass your message to mouq.
11:32 pippo .tell PerlJam I found the solution for http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-06-10#i_8850807 see http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-06-15#i_8873951
11:32 yoleaux pippo: I'll pass your message to PerlJam.
11:34 lizmat .tell FROGGS I'm starting to wonder whether %*CUSTOM_LIB should live in core at all
11:34 yoleaux lizmat: I'll pass your message to FROGGS.
11:36 pippo m: grammar G {rule TOP {^AA' '<one> <two> <three>$}; regex one {[\w+' ']*}; regex two {''||[\w+' ']*}; regex three {[\w+' ']+}}; say G.parse("AA 111 11 11  2 2 222   3 3 333 ");
11:36 camelia rakudo-moar fe867d: OUTPUT«「AA 111 11 11  2 2 222   3 3 333 」␤ one => 「111 11 11 」␤ two => 「2 2 222 」␤ three => 「3 3 333 」␤␤»
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12:25 masak https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=122095 is due to Moar's being a moving GC, right?
12:25 masak I *think* I agree that it's a bug.
12:30 vendethiel masak: isn't WHICH used for objects when used as indexes ?
12:34 masak yes, exactly.
12:34 masak they're supposed to persist across an object's lifetime.
12:34 * masak looks for support for that in the spec
12:35 masak S12-objects.pod:    WHICH       the object's identity value
12:37 masak the appropriate section about .WHICH and ObjAt in S02 seems to have been penned without any consideration of copying GCs.
12:46 lizmat TimToady assured that .WHICH should be immutable for the lifetime of an object
12:46 lizmat the other day
12:47 lizmat so I think we will need some lazy .WHICH setting
12:47 lizmat that, once set, will not change
12:48 lizmat imo, this could be as simple as a CASsed global counter
12:48 lizmat in pseudo code:  method WHICH { $!WHICH = cas(++$counter) }
12:49 lizmat or rather:  method WHICH { int64 $!WHICH ||= cas(++$counter) }
12:50 vendethiel could be a problem if you query the moved one after
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12:51 vendethiel i.e. : you have `$a = A.new; $b = A.new;`, you call `$a.WHICH` and its WHICH gets set. Then it gets moved, and `$b` gets moved at `$a`'s place
12:51 vendethiel ($a's old place). Now, you have a duplicated WHICH, don't you ?
12:52 lizmat no, because the counter is  completely independent, it's just monotonously increasing
12:52 masak no, because $!WHICH would be an attribute inside the moved object, not related to the memory address at all.
12:52 lizmat the $counter just starts at 0, assigning 1 to the first object of which the .WHICH is requested
12:55 lizmat by just putting a counter in there, we would not be duplicating the .WHAT info in the .WHCIH
12:55 lizmat which could be considered a win
12:55 lizmat also, for Sets, Bags, Mixes, that depend on the .WHICH
12:56 lizmat we might also have a win there
12:57 lizmat the only pb with this approach, is if we get more than 9223372036854775807 different objects that have their .WHICH called during the lifetime of a process
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12:59 lizmat to prevent racing issues, we maybe would need to have a counter per OS thread
12:59 TimToady at that point you'd have a 1 in 9223372036854775807 chance of a collision :)
13:00 lizmat yup, much less than now  :-)
13:01 lizmat perhaps use the top 16 bits for thread ID
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13:01 lizmat which could have its debugging uses as well
13:03 dalek nqp/qast_refactor: 724fff6 | jnthn++ | / (3 files):
13:03 dalek nqp/qast_refactor: Split QAST node children out into a role.
13:03 dalek nqp/qast_refactor: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/724fff60c4
13:03 dalek nqp/qast_refactor: b025b96 | jnthn++ | / (5 files):
13:03 dalek nqp/qast_refactor: Avoid direct QAST::Node usage.
13:03 dalek nqp/qast_refactor:
13:03 dalek nqp/qast_refactor: In some places we used it just to hold children; have a QAST::NodeList
13:03 dalek nqp/qast_refactor: to play that role.
13:03 dalek nqp/qast_refactor: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/b025b969a6
13:03 dalek nqp/qast_refactor: a3e24d5 | jnthn++ | src/QAST/ (20 files):
13:03 dalek nqp/qast_refactor: Re-structure QAST nodes and their creation.
13:03 dalek nqp/qast_refactor: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/a3e24d57f1
13:03 dalek nqp/qast_refactor: 2147886 | jnthn++ | src/QRegex/P6Regex/Optimizer.nqp:
13:03 dalek nqp/qast_refactor: Robustness fix to regex optimizer.
13:03 dalek nqp/qast_refactor: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/2147886644
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13:26 amirite i'm sad
13:27 * lizmat hugs amirite
13:27 * amirite just googled perl 6 and realized the likeliness of becoming a perl refugee is strong
13:28 vendethiel mmh ?
13:30 * vendethiel reads http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=387411 and grins
13:31 amirite perl 5 has limitations that need to be formally resolved but never will (like proper oo encapsulation), perl 6's production release isn't likely to happen any time soon if ever, in the interim kids need shoes and family needs to eat
13:31 amirite looks like i'll have to get into ruby or java and will forget about perl
13:31 amirite which is sad because i love the idiomatic expressiveness of this language
13:32 amirite and how easy it is to get things done
13:32 vendethiel amirite: i'm using p6 in production and doing good, thanks :)
13:32 * vendethiel actually gave a talk about this yesterday
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13:36 xfix amirite: Perl 5 only lacks private properties, if this is what you care about.
13:36 xfix Byt neither does JavaScript have them.
13:36 vendethiel so does JS, that doesn't prevent it from being used
13:37 * vendethiel remembers maddingue yesterday : "js is for hipsters"
13:37 itz is your talk likely to appear on youtube?
13:37 vendethiel itz: my talk is in french :)
13:37 itz oh
13:37 vendethiel (but yes, it'll appear on youtube)
13:38 masak amirite: I'm using Perl 6 every day, for purposes that ultimately put food on my family. I agree there is work to be done, but I'm neither hopeful nor resigned about it. just ready to help.
13:38 itz my French is of the "oou est la vache?" level :)
13:39 xfix Private methods in Perl 5 can be done with my $private = sub { ... };, and called with $object->$private.
13:39 xfix If this isn't a private method for you, then I don't know what is.
13:40 masak xfix: I wouldn't have objected if you hadn't said that last part.
13:40 masak xfix: Perl 5 needs a lot of things, but vehement defending of its shortcomings is not one of them :)
13:40 masak xfix: please tone down the defensive rationalization.
13:40 * vendethiel doesn't know what perl 5 needs
13:41 vendethiel I have a book about what it's got
13:41 cognominal woolfy++ for that
13:41 xfix Yes, I know it doesn't have private properties.
13:42 xfix And Perl 5 should have them. It's not about privacy, but about encapsulation.
13:42 vendethiel oh, woolfy++ and lizmat++ quite a bit.
13:42 masak I'm at a point on my OO journey where I don't *care* much about private object attributes. (that is, I morally agree with Perl 5 and JavaScript's design choice there.)
13:42 woolfy :-)
13:42 vendethiel (cognominal++ too, sure ;).)
13:42 cognominal Sometimes beeing pushy is good. :)
13:42 vendethiel masak: I'm at a point on my OO journey where I don't care about OO :P
13:42 masak but I can totally side with someone who says that Perl 5 (and JavaScript) don't have private attributes.
13:43 woolfy vendethiel: you did not have a book about Perl at all; the book Programming Perl by our illustrious firestarter can show you how it is done in Perl 5, not how you should do it in Perl 6...
13:43 masak and protesting that they can be easily emulated is (a) a bit irreverent, and (b) largely immaterial.
13:43 xfix They cannot be easily emulated.
13:44 xfix Unless you want some name convention to avoid conflicts.
13:44 masak xfix: function closures.
13:44 itz doesn't the  inside-out OO have proper private methods in perl 5?
13:44 masak yes.
13:44 mj41 Hi. Does it make sense to use Qc as baseground for simple p6 template toolkit? My prototype here https://github.com/mj41/SP6
13:45 xfix masak: Those are private methods, not private attributes.
13:45 masak xfix: what part of the word "emulated" did you overlook?
13:45 masak vendethiel: I'm increasingly realizing that the best kinds of OO are heavily influenced by immutability, memoization, proper tail recursion and referential transparency.
13:46 vendethiel masak: ... or just "good data structures"
13:46 masak :)
13:46 xfix You can emulate private methods with some arbitrary naming convention.
13:46 xfix Python does that for its __ properties.
13:46 xfix Private attributes*
13:46 masak I'd call that a leaky abstraction, since anyone who would want to mutate such a "private" attribute would be able to.
13:46 masak and some people would be tempted to.
13:47 xfix This is not a real issue for me. Just don't do it.
13:48 dalek rakudo/qast_refactor: 6d23540 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Actions.nqp:
13:48 dalek rakudo/qast_refactor: Changes to match NQP qast_refactor branch.
13:48 dalek rakudo/qast_refactor: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6d23540d20
13:49 woolfy mj41: maybe ask your question again?  (I cannot answer it)
13:49 masak xfix: you may well take that position. but contrast it with function closures, where the language doesn't *allow* you to cheat.
13:50 masak xfix: given that, I'd call the emulation using function closures "real" and the emulation using a '__' prefix "fake".
13:51 vendethiel well, at the same time, you can actually have private properties in JS (two different ways, and a "real" one coming into ES6)
13:53 masak vendethiel: two ways? which is the other one?
13:54 vendethiel masak: solution #1 : `function Car () { this.setSpeed = function (s) { speed = s }; var speed; }`
13:55 mj41 woolfy: Simple template system is useful for many use cases. And for me the really easy way is to use say Qc 'html { $title } html ...'. So I did a prototype.
13:56 masak mj41: make sure you add it to the ecosystem.
13:56 mj41 woolfy: Pull requests, patches and forks welcome  https://github.com/mj41/SP6
13:57 mj41 masak: ok, I'm going to try
13:58 xfix masak: in Python, properties starting with __ are special.
13:59 cognominal vendethiel: the language I was talking about yesterday was indeed idris, and specifically this paper.  http://eb.host.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/drafts/eff-tutorial.pdf
13:59 cognominal I am getting old, my memory is not so good :(
13:59 xfix They are converted to something like __UniqueClassName_property.
13:59 vendethiel masak: solution #2 : https://gist.github.com/Nami-Doc/8f90d2fb43dc453c77b0
13:59 vendethiel cognominal: so I was right :D
13:59 cognominal yes, you were.
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14:10 amirite http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%2Fm%2F06ff5%2C%20%2Fm%2F05zrn&amp;cmpt=q
14:13 amirite i think we can conclude "perl" is not going to be a relevant term in the web application industry after 2 or 3 years unless perl 6 becomes official within the next year
14:13 lizmat cycling&
14:15 masak vendethiel: firstly, I find your depending on variable/function hoisting and using variables before declaring them confusing. a matter of tastes, I guess.
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14:15 vendethiel masak: I just wrote them in incorrect order and didn't fix it because laziness :)
14:15 masak vendethiel: secondly, given that the first solution exists, why would I ever want to use the second?
14:15 vendethiel masak: because performance-wise, attaching functions to an instance is pretty bad.
14:15 masak oh, good point.
14:15 masak vendethiel++
14:18 cognominal amirite: Perl will be the relevant term in web programming when we get Perl 6 in browsers so that people can eventually have their favorite dynamic language in the browser, written In Perl 6. This will certainly take more than one year. Which is not a probleme because ES6 will do no better   :)
14:18 cognominal hubris++
14:18 timotimo oh yikes
14:21 masak I may not agree with cognominal's hopeful future projection, but I'm glad we have people in the community who hope for that, and work towards that.
14:22 amirite if i complain anymore i'll just be trolling, in the meantime i'm finding mastering algorithms with perl to be excellent reading
14:23 * amirite brushes up on algorithms instead of focusing on languages because those never die
14:24 cognominal People think about the future with all thing being equal. The point is to change things. And I may even be too conservative about Perl 6 in the web. Who know if the web will be still the dominant thing in 15 years.
14:25 cognominal The future is not extrapolating curves ahead. That would be boring.
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14:27 * amirite forecasts the internet in the future will be called the BNN, or The Big Neural Network -- and rather than accessing resources as web pages predominantly, the predominant resource will be augmented reality applications that get fed into your eye(s) and interfaced by eye movements, body movements, and speech
14:28 amirite and food will be 3d printed, delivered to your table by amazon.com drones
14:28 amirite and cars will have no drivers
14:29 amirite and an entire generation of people will be autistic because they were completely neglected as kids by parents who were enraptured by their technology and too busy staring at their smart phones and google glass to pay attention to them
14:30 vendethiel I don't want your future
14:30 amirite the future is now
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14:31 vendethiel no.
14:32 cognominal good luck with no drivers in Paris. It's one thing to teach computers to drive in Mountain View, another in Paris.  Streets are narrow, obstacles are not marked, people acts randomly, and they are proud to be at the wheel even if it means blocking the traffic for hours by getting stuck in intersections.
14:33 cognominal But I certainly want no human drivers in Paris; that would be so peaceful.
14:34 timotimo the coolest thing about the driverless car thing to me is reducing the amount of cars sitting around unused
14:34 atta cognominal: hehe!
14:35 timotimo and with a clever service behind the whole thing, travels could even be coordinated so that you get from A to B hopping between 3 different cars that just happen to share a part of the way or something like that
14:36 carlin driverless cars aren't futureistic enough for me, I want to see breakthroughs in teleportation
14:36 timotimo and proper car-to-car communication can enhance safety by a huge margin; the delay between the car before you braking and your car braking could be turned down to just miliseconds
14:36 amirite yeah startups are all the rage right now
14:36 amirite and will be for a while to come
14:37 amirite there is so much room for innovation, there is something like a renaissance happening
14:37 cognominal timotimo: we have autolib in Paris. It works even if they need some clue from Apple for their web site which is a visual agression. https://www.autolib.eu/en/
14:39 timotimo cognominal: in germany, there's things like "stadtmobil" where multiple stations are spread throughout cities where you can - as a member - reserve and then drive cars around
14:39 amirite the problem with driverless cars is what happens in the interim while some have drivers and some don't, i.e. a semi-truck coming at you head-on -- does your car turn left, killing the person sitting on the passenger side, or right, killing you sitting on the driver side?
14:39 timotimo so it's probably similar
14:39 timotimo amirite: driverless cars can see an amazing amount of distance ahead and theoretically, erratic driving could be predicted to some extent
14:39 cognominal Also in Europe, research is more about assembling driverless in convoy that being each one on their own. That's make more sense..
14:40 timotimo aye
14:40 amirite yeah i guess that's exactly right timo
14:40 timotimo the cool thing is if such a truck is approaching a blob of driverless cars, they can react as "one unit" and perform maneouvers no human could pull off
14:43 timotimo for example, they could drive extremely close next to each other to make a big amount of space for obstacles to pass through without crashing into each other or pushing each other off
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14:44 timotimo and if the theoretical truck that's coming straight at the cars is in an "in between" state between regular car and driverless car, it could perhaps already be publishing its telemetry data to nearby cars, thus allowing even better planning
14:44 * colomon 's computer is going to be at the shop long enough he installed IRC on his wife's machine
14:44 timotimo etc etc.
14:45 timotimo o/ colomon
14:45 colomon \o
14:47 * colomon is also installing xcode and perlbrew, so he can install rakudobrew.  :)
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15:03 ajr_ I'm surprised that no-one's tried driverless trucks in mining operations; the huge ones that grind backwards and forwards from pit to mill.
15:04 timotimo that'd seem like a difficult environment to work with
15:04 timotimo as in: streets are somewhat smooth
15:04 timotimo underground mines might be much rougher to navigate through
15:04 ajr_ They're very expensive, companies have problems getting responsible drivers to live in the desperate places mines tend to happen.
15:05 timotimo mhm
15:05 ajr_ And the job's very boring.
15:05 ajr_ Traffic's minimal, the route's repetitive.
15:06 ajr_ The fact that the roads are unpaved is only a problem for the suspension, not guidance.
15:06 timotimo OK, fair enough
15:06 ajr_ It would be no big deal to put in stakes or something for the sensors to detect. (Or just plot it on GPS.)
15:07 timotimo GPS in mines?
15:07 ajr_ No, these are surface operations.
15:07 timotimo ah, ok
15:07 ajr_ Mines would be really easy to set up as routes.
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15:28 masak lizmat: I'm wondering whether the .WHICH solution shouldn't be MoarVM-specific. Parrot and JVM don't have this problem, and it feels weird to introduce a solution that will cost performance for them.
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15:58 jnthn masak: JVM does have it too.
15:58 jnthn masak: but it'll want a different solution
15:59 masak oki
16:03 dalek nqp/qast_refactor: baacde8 | jnthn++ | src/QAST/Unquote.nqp:
16:03 dalek nqp/qast_refactor: Fix copy-pasto in QAST::Unquote.
16:03 dalek nqp/qast_refactor: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/baacde8630
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17:07 ChoHag I have a channel which I work through with for $!Q.list -> $item { ... }
17:07 ChoHag How can I combine that with winner so that it loops through two channels?
17:07 ChoHag Taking items off whichever is first.
17:08 timotimo do we have combinators for channels?
17:08 jnthn That's what the winner construct is for
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17:09 timotimo ah, of course
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17:10 ChoHag Ah S17 has 'winner * { more @channels { ... } }'
17:10 ChoHag Can I just do more ($priority, $regular) { ... }?
17:11 ChoHag Or do something with this:
17:11 ChoHag for @$channel -> $val { ... }
17:12 timotimo i think you can ask a channel if it has a value and wait for values to be available with Promise.anyof(Channel1.new_value_promise_thingie, Channel2.new_value_promise_thingie)
17:12 timotimo and then prioritize the one channel over the other
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17:13 ChoHag The only mention of promise I see aroudn channels is in response to the channel being closed.
17:14 * timotimo has, sadly, not used channels a lot yet
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17:36 FROGGS o/
17:36 yoleaux 11:34Z <lizmat> FROGGS: I'm starting to wonder whether %*CUSTOM_LIB should live in core at all
17:49 sergot o/
17:51 FROGGS .tell lizmat is there another way to get your hands on the CURL of 'home', 'site', 'vendor' or 'perl'? I mean, on a specific one?
17:51 yoleaux FROGGS: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
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18:38 zengargoyle with the CompUnitRepo stuff, i was wondering if POD in a compiled module requires the module to load before something like p6doc or --doc could get at it.
18:39 zengargoyle and if plain .pod files were meant to live in the library-ish paths like they do in p5
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18:41 zengargoyle how would one get the POD out of a compiled module if they were missing a dependency required to load the module?
18:43 FROGGS rakudo's core modules do not use the CompUnitRepo
18:43 FROGGS they use the original file/dir based module loader
18:44 zengargoyle the p6doc module broke when @*INC went from a Str to a CURL thingy
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18:46 zengargoyle although it's p6doc is probably hackish ATM
18:47 FROGGS is it exploding here? https://github.com/perl6/doc/blob/master/bin/p6doc#L28
18:47 FROGGS the it would just need to stringify first
18:48 FROGGS at least it does not seem to load Perl6::Pod, which is an nqp-module
18:48 FROGGS (and is about Pod parsing)
18:50 zengargoyle haven't looked recently, but i think that was the place.  i remember looking and seeing that @*INC actually being an object instead of a string was a recent change.
18:50 zengargoyle and looking at CURL and not finding a method to get a Str back
18:52 FROGGS it has a method Str
18:52 FROGGS m: say CompUnitRepo::Local::File.^methods
18:52 camelia rakudo-moar 7f22e9: OUTPUT«install files candidates new BUILD Str gist perl <anon> <anon>␤»
18:52 zengargoyle it mignt now. :)
18:52 FROGGS it had from the beginning :o)
18:52 FROGGS m: say @*INC[0].Str
18:52 camelia rakudo-moar 7f22e9: OUTPUT«/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/languages/perl6/lib␤»
18:54 zengargoyle i seem to recall looking and the Str was on an array like thing, so you could get '/a/path /a/nother/path' from Str instead.
18:54 zengargoyle and would have to split and hassle with spaces in paths etc.
18:55 FROGGS ahh true
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18:55 FROGGS like since two weeks we only have one thingy per CURL
18:55 zengargoyle like one CURL object could handle multiple paths being primarily used for just passing a module and getting it loaded.
18:55 zengargoyle not for searching and returning locations..
18:55 zengargoyle ok. gotcha
18:56 zengargoyle still, POD in compiled modules would require loading the module yes?
18:56 zengargoyle i'm trying to grok how something like perldoc would work.
18:56 FROGGS when you put Pod (or comments) into a module, the parser needs its Pod module to parse it, that's all
18:57 FROGGS Pod is available as objects also
18:57 zengargoyle but how would you load the module if you were missing a dependency
18:58 FROGGS look at S26:1
18:58 synopsebot Link: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S26.html#line_1
18:59 FROGGS I think you can ask a module to dump its Pod, but I'm not sure
19:00 FROGGS ahh, p6doc extracts things from source files that look like Pod
19:00 FROGGS hackish, aye :o)
19:01 zengargoyle i'm thinking you only have Term/ANSIColor.moarvm (and not Term/ANSIColor.pm).
19:01 zengargoyle the POD is in the .moarvm file yes.
19:01 zengargoyle but say Term/ANSIColor.moarvm needs Term.moarvm which you don't have.
19:01 FROGGS when you install stuff via panda you always install both the .pm and .moarvm
19:02 zengargoyle so you can't load ANSIColor to get to the POD.
19:02 zengargoyle yes, i'm being theoretical. :P
19:02 FROGGS so you have to scan the .pm for Pod like lines... like what p6doc does
19:02 FROGGS yeah...
19:03 FROGGS seems like the only (not very ideal) way
19:03 zengargoyle and just questioning if plain .pod files are supposed to go in languages/perl6/site/lib like places in the first place.
19:04 zengargoyle like perl5 does searching for .pod / .pm in the same places.
19:04 zengargoyle like if you module had Manual.pod Introduction.pod etc. type of doc
19:07 FROGGS the pod could be installed to a virtual /doc directory, because CompUnitRepo::Local::Installation will most likely do not store things plain on a filesystem
19:10 * lizmat is back
19:10 yoleaux 17:51Z <FROGGS> lizmat: is there another way to get your hands on the CURL of 'home', 'site', 'vendor' or 'perl'? I mean, on a specific one?
19:11 lizmat FROGGS: the CURL of a specific directory is a sentinel: there is only one object for a given path
19:11 FROGGS lizmat: but how do you get the object for 'site'?
19:11 lizmat ah, ok, that way...
19:11 FROGGS like... so that you could move that to the beginning of @*INC, of to pick it as installation target
19:12 FROGGS s/of/or/
19:12 lizmat I guess for that you would need something like CUSTOM_LIB
19:12 lizmat hmmmm...
19:12 FROGGS yeah, otherwise you'd have to walk @*INC every time
19:13 FROGGS m: say @*INC.grep( *.name eq 'home' )
19:13 camelia rakudo-moar 7f22e9: OUTPUT«No such method 'name' for invocant of type 'CompUnitRepo::Local::File'␤  in whatevercode  at /tmp/t8679mLY3i:1␤  in block  at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:1611␤  in method reify at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:7731␤  in method reify at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:7…»
19:13 lizmat but should CUSTOM_LIB contain instantiated CURL objects ?
19:14 lizmat BTW, I was also thinking about providing a shortcut for
19:14 lizmat CompUnitRepo::Local::File:.
19:14 FROGGS instantiated objects?
19:14 FROGGS well, that'd be -I. :o)
19:15 lizmat true
19:15 lizmat but more generic: for CompUnitRepo::Local::Installation
19:15 FROGGS that is more interesting
19:15 lizmat I'm thinking of a sort of protocol indicator, like with URLs:
19:15 lizmat http://
19:16 lizmat inst://.
19:16 FROGGS hmmm, not bad
19:16 lizmat file://.  (use . as a CURL::File)
19:16 lizmat inst:://foo/bar   (use foo/bar as a CURL::Installation)
19:17 FROGGS yeah, I like it
19:17 lizmat the "protocol" string would be returned by a method of the CURL class
19:18 FROGGS makes sense
19:18 lizmat multiple paths still divided by comma's
19:18 lizmat if no protocol seen, then same as before
19:18 lizmat initial protocol would be file://
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19:27 mj41 masak: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/pull/31
19:32 dalek ecosystem: af52a94 | (Michal Jurosz)++ | META.list:
19:32 dalek ecosystem: Add SP6 to ecosystem
19:32 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/af52a94618
19:32 dalek ecosystem: 9befabd | (Carl Mäsak)++ | META.list:
19:32 dalek ecosystem: Merge pull request #31 from mj41/master
19:32 dalek ecosystem:
19:32 dalek ecosystem: Add SP6 to ecosystem
19:32 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/9befabd891
19:32 masak mj41: merged.
19:35 moritz mj41: ... and now you have the permissions to push directly, next time :-)
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19:52 mj41 moritz: thx a lot and good nigth from Czech rep.
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19:53 dalek roast: ae9d90c | (David Warring david.warring@gmail.com)++ | / (2 files):
19:53 dalek roast: adding 2011 advent day 14
19:53 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/ae9d90cee0
20:16 dalek roast: a871301 | (David Warring david.warring@gmail.com)++ | / (2 files):
20:16 dalek roast: completing 2011 advent day 14
20:16 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/a87130180b
20:18 dalek rakudo/nom: a1e330a | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | t/spectest.data:
20:18 dalek rakudo/nom: Add advent2011-day14 to the spectest
20:18 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a1e330a53f
20:18 lizmat dwarring++
20:22 dalek roast: 7e36848 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | packages/Advent/MetaBoundaryAspect.pm:
20:22 dalek roast: DeTAB
20:22 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/7e36848881
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20:35 masak dwarring++
20:36 timotimo aye, good work!
20:37 dwarring fun but useful
20:38 timotimo the best kind :)
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20:50 dalek roast: db4bad3 | Nami-Doc++ | integration/advent2011-day14.t:
20:50 dalek roast: Fix typo "inhertance"
20:50 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/db4bad3468
20:51 lizmat vendethiel starting small  :-)
20:51 vendethiel lizmat: he, I have other previous bigger commits (still small, but no typos)
20:51 lizmat hehe  :-)
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21:31 pippo_ good night #perl6.
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21:48 lizmat FROGGS: I'm trying to grasp "add-curs" in src/core/Inc.pm
21:49 lizmat so you can specify:
21:50 FROGGS it parses colonpairs beside the classname
21:50 lizmat but after that, it's doing %options<name> after that
21:50 lizmat that seems wrong?
21:50 lizmat or are you just grepping :name<foo> ?
21:51 FROGGS :name<foo> would put it in %*CUSTOM_LIB<foo>
21:52 FROGGS :name<foo>, :name(foo) and :name[foo] will be parsed by that regex
21:52 lizmat this is not specced anywhere yet, right?
21:52 FROGGS correct
21:52 lizmat as is :name(foo>  btw  :-)
21:52 FROGGS :o)
21:52 lizmat do you know if this is being used anywhere yet ?
21:53 FROGGS I'm not sure
21:53 FROGGS perhaps in my panda dev branch
21:53 FROGGS but it is unlikely
21:53 lizmat so you'll be the only one mad at me  :-)
21:53 lizmat when I break it?
21:54 FROGGS I won't be mad
21:54 lizmat okidoki  :-)
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21:59 dalek rakudo/nom: f1b05d1 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Inc.pm:
21:59 dalek rakudo/nom: Lay out the INC path regex a bit
21:59 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f1b05d137c
22:00 lizmat no breakage here yet  :-)
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22:16 cognominal what make-cur stands for?
22:16 FROGGS comp unit repo
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22:17 cognominal ho
22:17 cognominal and add-curs?
22:17 cognominal comp unit repo s?
22:19 cognominal lizmat++  # doing so much work facing the user, complementing jnthn (and others) working on architecture/performance/low-level-stuff.
22:27 cognominal r:  "a" ~~ / a { say $¢ } /
22:27 camelia rakudo-jvm a1e330: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
22:27 camelia ..rakudo-{parrot,moar} a1e330: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Unsupported use of $¢ variableâ�¤at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤------> [32m"a" ~~ / a { say [33mâ��[31m$¢ } /[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        prefix or te…»
22:32 cognominal ho, the test about $¢ is skipped in rakudo
22:33 masak 'night, #perl6
22:33 FROGGS night masak
22:34 FROGGS m:  "a" ~~ / a { say $/.CURSOR } /
22:34 camelia rakudo-moar f1b05d: OUTPUT«Cursor.new()␤»
22:35 cognominal hardly useful either
22:36 timotimo m:  "a" ~~ / a { say $/.CURSOR.DUMP } /
22:36 camelia rakudo-moar f1b05d: OUTPUT«Cursor<1>(:$!made(Any))␤»
22:36 colomon joined #perl6
22:37 FROGGS m:  "a" ~~ / a { say $/.CURSOR.pos } /
22:37 camelia rakudo-moar f1b05d: OUTPUT«1␤»
22:37 FROGGS it is useful
22:38 FROGGS m:  "a" ~~ / { say $/.CURSOR.pos } a { say $/.CURSOR.pos } /
22:38 camelia rakudo-moar f1b05d: OUTPUT«0␤1␤»
22:39 cognominal m:  "a" ~~ / a { say $/.CURSOR.dump } /
22:39 camelia rakudo-moar f1b05d: OUTPUT«No such method 'dump' for invocant of type 'Cursor'␤  in block  at /tmp/5mBjsOG8jB:1␤␤»
22:42 cognominal ho, that's an unrelated dump.
22:43 timotimo aye, qast has method dump, too, i believe
22:47 cognominal every stage of the parse is supposed to have one. That's what  makes --target=whatever   work
22:48 cognominal but matching is not a stage of parsing, so I was utterly confused, as usual.
22:49 timotimo oh
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22:50 FROGGS .DUMP is something rakudo internal, .dump is implemented in nqp for stage printing, aye
22:51 cognominal .DUMP is not specified. I suppose that's why it is uppercase
22:51 FROGGS it is not specced, correct
22:52 FROGGS it is some sort of rakudo developer friendly version of .gist
22:52 FROGGS but now: gnight all
22:52 cognominal gnight
22:59 timotimo DUMP can also do "recursive" structures
22:59 cognominal ok
23:04 timotimo i should probably get started on my talk ...
23:04 timotimo i'd like to collect some "day to day" tasks that you can nicely use rakudo for nowadays (and in the near future)
23:05 timotimo i've had rakudo internals directly in front of my face for too long, i'm missing the "big picture"
23:09 cognominal timotimo:  https://gist.github.com/softmoth is a good example
23:09 cognominal I meant  https://gist.github.com/softmoth/1fe9843610f0ea6062d1
23:11 cognominal timotimo, I wanted to do the same, showing basic perl6, but I wanted to do a state of Perl 6 before so I got no time for the basic part.
23:12 timotimo aye, since i gave a talk on perl6 last year, i'll give a quick "what's changed" overview
23:12 timotimo mostly "look, we got jvm, performance, multithreaded stuff, and async I/O now!"
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23:15 cognominal Once we will have a slang that do basic shell stuff like pipe and redirection, we wont even need a talk.
23:16 cognominal See : you can do what you do in a shell, even with the syntax of a shell.
23:17 cognominal ...without the ugly control flow of the shell
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23:24 timotimo ipython has something nice for that
23:25 cognominal I don't like to have to choose between cheese and dessert. Somme shellish stuff should be done right in Perl 6.
23:26 cognominal ... with shellish syntax when it is a win.
23:27 cognominal timitimo: sounds nice. yes, we need a iperl6, like python has a ipython.
23:29 timotimo well, that's not what i mean
23:30 timotimo the ipython protocol could - now that we have async stuff - properly be used by rakudo
23:30 timotimo but what i meant was things like "foobar = !ls"
23:31 cognominal ok, nice to know
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23:37 dmol joined #perl6
23:37 timotimo cognominal: please suggest something i could do as example code for the cairo binding?
23:38 Khisanth joined #perl6
23:38 cognominal I don't know cairo :)
23:38 timotimo vector graphics drawing library
23:39 cognominal that's pure graphic, no events?
23:39 cognominal http://cairographics.org/  # ok, I see
23:40 cognominal I suppose rotating and flipping camelia would be nice.
23:40 timotimo that sounds like a lot of work
23:41 timotimo cairo integrates "well" with gtk, and we already have a gtk::simple binding
23:41 timotimo so that would be one of the logical next steps
23:42 timotimo i don't really know what i should use as a fallback to display cairos results; i'm not sure if i really want to build the gtk-cairo-bridge just yet
23:42 timotimo though it should be fairly easy
23:42 timotimo hmm.
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