Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-06-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:48 dalek doc/redesign: 9400c44 | Mouq++ | htmlify.p6:
00:48 dalek doc/redesign: Fix generation of routine-{sub,method}.html
00:48 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/9400c44b20
00:48 dalek doc/redesign: 2f55811 | Mouq++ | / (2 files):
00:48 dalek doc/redesign: Code clean-up
00:48 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/2f55811459
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01:17 grondilu You guys thought you were done with unicode, right?   Well, unicode 7 just came out:  http://unicode-inc.blogspot.fr/2014/06/an​nouncing-unicode-standard-version-70.html
01:17 segomos_ i just patched in unicode 7.1
01:17 grondilu oh
01:18 segomos_ kidding :)
01:18 grondilu ah
01:18 segomos_ i like the billboard character
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01:23 grondilu Today I noticed that panda is installable again.  Yet I failed to install v5.  That's not yet fixed, is it?
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01:49 grondilu bah nevermind
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02:34 colomon panda install still broken on moar.  :(
02:34 lue Too bad we're stuck (documentationally at least) with Unicode 6.2 until they decide to actually publish 7, which appears to be set for October :(
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02:47 btyler colomon: broken how? just installed both from a local repo and from the ecosystem
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02:55 colomon t/installer.t (Wstat: 0 Tests: 14 Failed: 6)
02:55 colomon Failed tests:  9-14
02:55 colomon Parse errors: Bad plan.  You planned 8 tests but ran 14.
02:55 colomon …. actually that seems more promising than it has.
02:58 colomon … and that was because my version of panda was hacked.  sigh.
02:59 colomon I have a working panda on moar-HEAD!
02:59 colomon \o/
02:59 colomon afk # sleep
02:59 benabik colomon: You were hacked?  /o\
02:59 benabik ;-)
03:25 dalek doc/redesign: d636000 | Mouq++ | htmlify.p6:
03:25 dalek doc/redesign: Remove "Modules" and "Formalities" for now
03:25 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/d636000858
03:25 dalek doc/redesign: cb5d7f3 | Mouq++ | htmlify.p6:
03:25 dalek doc/redesign: Abstract and generalize finding definitions in language docs
03:25 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/cb5d7f3973
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04:10 dalek doc/redesign: 1dfd619 | Mouq++ | htmlify.p6:
04:10 dalek doc/redesign: Use find-definitions for Type files
04:10 dalek doc/redesign:
04:10 dalek doc/redesign: This cuts down on a lot of redundancy and allows for the same procedure
04:10 dalek doc/redesign: to be used in places other than Type files.
04:10 Mouq sorry dalek v_v
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04:12 Mouq commit is here, fwiw: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/1dfd619f070
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04:43 dalek doc/redesign: 9429392 | Mouq++ | lib/Type/ (108 files):
04:43 dalek doc/redesign: Update Type files as per 1dfd619f070
04:43 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/9429392746
04:47 moritz [Coke]: I've added a 4GB swap file to host07
04:50 [Coke] moritz: thanks.
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06:23 bebus Hello all
06:23 bebus I would like to share my achievement with you :)
06:24 bebus During last perl workshop in Poland -> Poznan, on Hackathon, I was working on installing Perl6 on my Ubuntu Touch
06:24 bebus Yup... I failed back then due to lack of build-essentials package
06:25 bebus But finally, now, I've compiled Perl6 on my mobile device directly :D
06:25 bebus and it works :]
06:27 bebus I've tried to compile using moar,parrot and jvm and unfortunatelly, up to now, I've managed to successfully build Perl6 on JVM only :/
06:29 bebus configuring parrot return: value for '@icu_shared@' in config/gen/makefiles/root.in is undef at lib/Parrot/Configure/Compiler.pm line 611, <$in> line 135.
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06:29 bebus not checked that yet
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06:30 bebus configuring moar on the other hand gives: make: *** [gen/moar/stage1/nqpmo.moarvm] Bus error (core dumped)
06:31 bebus so, now some results/feedback
06:34 Timbus hah. thats neat
06:34 Timbus what hardware?
06:34 bebus building Perl6 on JVM took ~20h
06:34 Timbus aaa
06:34 bebus NEXUS 4
06:34 bebus ~8h took to configure NQP-j
06:36 xiaomiao impressive :)
06:36 bebus Stage parse took ~10000
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06:37 bebus and Stage mast ~20000.... so quite long ;)
06:37 bebus today morning it finished so I wanted to test it ofc :)
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06:38 bebus running "./perl6 -v" takes 1m2s
06:38 bebus return: This is perl6 version 2014.05-171-ge9e842a built on JVM
06:39 bebus running "./perl6 -e \"say 'Hello Mobile World';\"" takes 4m7s
06:39 bebus so this is not a speed deamon ;p
06:40 Timbus lol
06:41 bebus I think that this should be faster on moarvm if I'll manage to compile it
06:41 Timbus can you cross-compile?
06:44 bebus I didn't try that yet. My idea behind that was: I have a phone with power CPU. I want to connect it to keyboard, mouse, monitor and use is as a true PC.
06:45 bebus I'll try to play with that little more and if I'll fail than I'll cross compile it
06:47 bebus aaa just note... On my Ubuntu Touch phone, there is Perl5 - 5.18.2 -> and it's quite fast
06:49 dalek perl6-bench: f079596 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | nqp/rc-man-or-boy-test:
06:49 dalek perl6-bench: Un-bitrot nqp/rc-man-or-boy-test
06:49 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/f079596dcc
06:49 dalek perl6-bench: 4dddf4d | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | minibenchmarks.pl:
06:49 dalek perl6-bench: rc-man-or-boy-test: Enable nqp-moarvm; raise scale above noise floor
06:49 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/4dddf4d12b
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06:52 jnthn segomos_: Well, I don't know exactly what JVM is doing, but I do know writes to async sockets should probably be async
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07:21 masak 'morning, #perl6
07:21 masak bebus++ # mobile!
07:21 masak is bebus the first one to run Perl 6 on a mobile device? I don't remember.
07:24 FROGGS__ hmmm, I'd like to have P6 on my blackberry :/
07:24 FROGGS__ (now)
07:26 tadzik bebus: hah, good job! :)
07:27 tadzik would be interesting to investigate the moarvm problem
07:27 FROGGS__ is there a walkthrough?
07:27 FROGGS__ like this for Perl 5? https://github.com/dex4er/perl5/wiki/android
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07:27 tadzik masak: I think supernovus or snarkyboojum ran rakudo on Nokia N900 a couple of years back
07:28 * jnthn tries to remember what CPU bebus++'s phone had in it
07:28 jnthn I had hoped nwc10++'s porting work woulda covered it :)
07:29 tadzik masak: https://twitter.com/snarky​boojum/status/21738635293
07:30 tadzik that's 4 years ago :o
07:30 tadzik I could try compiling moarvm for my n900 too
07:31 * FROGGS__ tests r* now
07:32 jnthn FROGGS__++
07:33 bebus tadzik: in fact, moarvm is compiled on my phone... hmmm it fails on building nqp
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07:38 masak ok, snarkyboojum++, then. :)
07:38 tadzik ah, hm
07:46 nwc10 bebus: don't bother *building* nqp on your phone
07:46 nwc10 build MoarVM for you phone, build Rakudo elsewhere (but with the correct paths) and ship it over
07:46 nwc10 MoarVM bytecode files are portable.
07:46 nwc10 like JVM
07:47 nwc10 the only reason to build NQP and Rakudo on a strange platform is if you want to use the entire build process as an extended regression/stress test
07:47 nwc10 (which is a useful thing to do)
07:48 nwc10 but if your goal is having Rakudo, rather than "finding and fixing bugs in Rakudo", then take the shortcut
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07:54 sergot morning! o/
07:57 Ven o/, *
08:05 masak morning, sergot! \o
08:10 masak here's all the code from yesterday's blog post, if someone wants to play with it: https://gist.github.com/masak/f865b7d9dd33e535b501
08:10 masak (also linked from the post)
08:11 sergot masak++
08:12 masak actually, sergot++ had a part in this, too :)
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08:20 psch hi #perl6
08:20 lizmat hi psch
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08:21 ChoHag Can I define a trait to ack as a sort of filter on an attribute or variable, modifying any attempt to read or write from it?
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08:22 lizmat ChoHag: you probably mean Proxy
08:22 Ven m: role B { method a { $!a * 5 } }; class A does B { has $.a; }; say A.new(:a(5)).a # <ChoHag
08:22 lizmat examples e.g. in srr/core/BagHash.pm
08:22 ChoHag ven: Is that all that's needed to augment any attempt to access $!a?
08:23 ChoHag default, direct access, etc.?
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08:23 Ven Won't work, actually. B can't find $!a. Duh.
08:23 Ven Uncool.
08:23 ChoHag Proxies look about right.
08:24 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/s8BhnYfs2vâ�¤Attribute $!a not declared in role Bâ�¤at /tmp/s8BhnYfs2v:1â�¤------> [32mrole B { method a { $!a * 5 } }[33mâ��[31m; class A does B { has $.a; }; say A.new[0mâ�¤    expecting any o…»
08:24 Ven thanks camelia ;_l
08:25 psch i'm still getting the SEGV for .isa(Scalar); https://gist.github.com/pe​schwa/863b4d839e0024388052
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08:26 Ven psch: works here
08:27 Ven (with a fresh rakudo)
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08:29 psch the moar version i'm running is the one i should be running though, right? seeing as [Coke] mentioned it was over a month old
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08:32 ChoHag Hmm. So how can I use a trait to replace an attribute with a proxy?
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08:32 ChoHag core/traits.pm doesn't give me any clues.
08:34 lizmat fitness&
08:34 ChoHag Can I mix a Proxy role in?
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08:36 moritz I don't think so
08:36 ChoHag Yeah that didn't work.
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08:41 masak Ven: re the private attribute thing above: private attributes can only be accessed in the role/class they were declared. this is a good thing.
08:41 masak Ven: not even subclasses or mixed-in roles are exempted.
08:42 masak Ven: there's a mechanism for sharing information about private attributes. it's (read/write) accessors.
08:42 ChoHag Where can I find documentation on := ?
08:43 moritz S02, I think. And http://doc.perl6.org/language/containers
08:43 ChoHag Thankyou.
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08:44 ChoHag Boom.
08:45 Ven masak: meh :p
08:47 masak Ven: I think lexical scoping is a really great idea. the scoping of private attributes is much the same, although the memory allocation is per-object.
08:47 Ven masak: that's unrelated, though
08:48 masak how so?
08:48 masak the private attribute is *scoped*, that's why you cannot access it from the outside.
08:48 Ven I mean not lexicall
08:49 masak you're making less and less sense.
08:50 moritz m: class A { has $!priv = 42; method a { class B { method b() { say $!priv } }; B.new.b } }; A.a
08:50 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/Kl0OFxPtw5â�¤Attribute $!priv not declared in class Bâ�¤at /tmp/Kl0OFxPtw5:1â�¤------> [32m { class B { method b() { say $!priv } }[33mâ��[31m; B.new.b } }; A.a[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤    â€¦Â»
08:50 Ven m: class A { has $!foo; class B { our sub bar($a) { $a!foo = 5; } }; method BUILD { self.bless(foo => 5) }; method m { $!foo; } }; my A $a .= new; B::bar($a); say $a.m;
08:50 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/YrjK9OKdGk�No such private method 'foo' for invocant of type 'B'�at /tmp/YrjK9OKdGk:1�------> [32ms $!foo; class B { our sub bar($a) { $a![33m�[31mfoo = 5; } }; method BUILD { self.bless(…»
08:50 Ven m: class A { has $!foo; class B { our sub bar($a) { $a.foo = 5; } }; method BUILD { self.bless(foo => 5) }; method m { $!foo; } }; my A $a .= new; B::bar($a); say $a.m;
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08:50 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
08:50 Ven m: class A { has $!foo; class B { our sub bar($a) { $a.foo = 5; } }; method BUILD { self.bless(foo => 5) }; method m { $!foo; } }; my A $a .= new; B::bar($a); say $a.m;
08:51 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
08:51 masak moritz: yeah, point. that's not very lexical.
08:51 Ven yes, what I mean.
08:51 Ven Except moar doesn't like me much
08:51 moritz masak: it's constrained by both lexicality AND object scope, iirc
08:51 sergot more videos from the plpw14! :) https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis​t=PLf0lAaAcx8ybKJj_QAnVFvVdu3lHbqGz-
08:51 masak sergot++
08:52 moritz m: class A { has $!p = 42}; use MONKEY_TYPING; augment A { method a () { say $!p } }; A.new.a
08:52 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Type 'A' is not declared�at /tmp/e1OZVCbSQC:1�------> [32m$!p = 42}; use MONKEY_TYPING; augment A [33m�[31m{ method a () { say $!p } }; A.new.a[0m�Malformed augment�at /tmp/e1OZVCbSQC:1�------> [32m$!p = 42…»
08:52 moritz m: class A { has $!p = 42}; use MONKEY_TYPING; augment class A { method a () { say $!p } }; A.new.a
08:52 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«42␤»
08:52 moritz ok, not restricted lexically
08:52 Ven not lexical
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08:52 Ven masak: does that make more sense now :P ?
08:53 Ven masak: I'm really, really tired, so I probably don't make much sense, but that's what I meant
08:53 masak yes, makes more sense.
08:53 masak but the 'lexical' explanation, while not exactly correct, still carries explanatory power.
08:54 moritz I agree; it makes it obvious that subclasses don't get access to the attributes
08:55 masak or roles.
08:55 moritz but the classes get access to the role's attributes, no?
08:56 masak m: role R { has $!x }; class C does R { method foo { say $!x } }; C.new.foo
08:56 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
08:56 masak apparently.
08:56 masak but that rhymes well with "roles are literally copied into classes", so I don't mind.
08:57 masak (though I also wouldn't revolt if the above didn't work)
08:58 Ven But I think I'll miss Ruby's power here
08:58 masak please be more specific.
08:58 Ven It's a power VS checking case
08:59 Ven do you want to be able to do lots of stuff, or do you want you stuff to be statically checked
08:59 Ven Basically, it's a "there's a runtime and a compile time" which exists in p6 but doesn't in Ruby
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09:02 masak so you're saying Ruby is entirely interpreted?
09:05 Ven masak: I am.
09:05 ChoHag What can I do with the container method of Attribute?
09:06 Ven masak: try `class A < [String, Array].sample;end` Dynamic inheritance
09:06 ChoHag In particular, what purpose does its being rw serve?
09:06 Ven m: sub foo is rw { state $a }; foo = 5; say foo; # look ChoHag, it's rw !
09:06 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/KPziJWFxD1�Preceding context expects a term, but found infix = instead�at /tmp/KPziJWFxD1:1�------> [32msub foo is rw { state $a }; foo =[33m�[31m 5; say foo; # look ChoHag, it's rw ![0m�»
09:07 Ven m: sub foo is rw { state $a }; foo() = 5; say foo; # look ChoHag, it's rw !
09:07 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«5␤»
09:07 ChoHag No, I know that rw means it's settable, but why is Attribute.container settable?
09:08 jnthn It's rw so it can actually return to you the prototype container without it being stipped away
09:08 timotimo sergot: twitter botched your youtube link for the plpw videos :(
09:09 ChoHag Not so that I can fuck about with it then?
09:11 ChoHag Do you know how I can use a trait to replace an attribute with a proxy?
09:15 jnthn I don't know "replace it with a proxy" makes sense
09:15 jnthn An attribute is a storage location
09:15 jnthn It's the accessor that wants to return the proxy.
09:16 jnthn And you can override/control accessor generation.
09:16 jnthn Or just .add_method something there and then
09:16 jnthn Or wrap the generated accessor
09:17 jnthn If you put a Proxy in the storage location then you don't have a place to store the value I guess you're wishing to validate using the Proxy...
09:20 sergot timotimo++: ohh :( thanks
09:20 Ven masak: are you perl6-slow trying to compute what ruby does for that ? :P
09:20 timotimo yeah, why would a legit link ever end in a dash, right?
09:20 Ven timotimo: tweet a mangled link :P
09:21 sergot timotimo: retweeted :)
09:22 timotimo that's not what that word means %)
09:22 sergot ye.. :)
09:23 sergot anyway, you know what I meant
09:23 sergot :)
09:25 tadzik oh, my talk video is 23 minutes long!
09:26 tadzik so I did fill the time slot
09:26 ChoHag jnthn: What'll that do about default values?
09:26 ChoHag Overriding the accessor.
09:26 tadzik or sergot artificially prolonged my video knowing that I probbaly wouldn't watch it but it'd make me feel good that it's so long
09:26 timotimo :3
09:27 sergot :D
09:27 jnthn ChoHag: Default value is a $!foo level thing, not an accessor level thing, iirc
09:27 ChoHag So I'd need to adjust it in BUILD?
09:28 jnthn Well, you can write a submethod BUILD(:$.thing, :$.other) { } to force it to go through the accessor.
09:35 FROGGS__ that is supposed to work, correct?
09:35 FROGGS__ m: grammar A { token foo is export { a } }; grammar B { token TOP { <foo>+ } }; say B.parse.("aaa")
09:35 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 2␤  in method parse at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:13169␤  in block  at /tmp/8z0e23sCpT:1␤␤»
09:35 masak Ven: no, I got it. and Stack Overflow sorta-kinda verifies your stance.
09:35 Ven masak: eh, I do ruby "all day", so I certainly hope my code works
09:36 Ven very very powerful. I once wrote a method to import all methods from submodules with a prefix.
09:38 masak :)
09:40 masak the pull between static and dynamic is something that interests me.
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09:49 Ven masak: P6 ain't no idris yet
09:49 Ven or agda, for that matters.
09:52 dalek ecosystem: d5f49aa | sergot++ | META.list:
09:52 dalek ecosystem: all HTTP::* modules are now in HTTP::UserAgent
09:52 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/e​cosystem/commit/d5f49aa6f2
09:52 masak Ven: nor is it aiming to be.
09:52 masak Ven: doing something like that sounds more like a slang or a module.
09:52 Ven masak: that's just plain not gonna work
09:52 masak maybe not.
09:53 masak but people have surprised me before in that regard.
09:53 Psyche^ joined #perl6
09:57 Ven masak: well, you need  the support from the VM for some things
09:57 sergot I remind you about upcoming release, update the changelog please :)
09:57 Ven you can't get reified generics on the jvm, for example
09:57 Ven (and it's a good thing.)
10:06 masak sergot++ # comfort and pain relief manager
10:15 jnthn I really miss having proper generics on the JVM. A bunch of stuff that should work simply doesn't 'cus they type erase.
10:15 jnthn One of the things that makes Java just feel plain clunky compared to C#.
10:15 masak aye.
10:15 sergot it seems that only 8 people contributed to this release.
10:16 jnthn so slacking
10:16 jnthn :P
10:16 * masak notices that he's not one of them
10:17 masak maybe I'll have time to contribute something before Thursday...
10:17 nwc10 I hope I'm not one
10:19 sergot nwc10: why so? :)
10:19 nwc10 because if I am, that means there were only 7 other people active
10:20 nwc10 or, I would guess, 5 + liz + jnthn
10:20 nwc10 but if I am, then it's 6
10:20 nwc10 er, am not
10:21 sergot and only 5 new things in the changelog
10:22 nwc10 Su-Shee: I hope I remember correctly that you were one of the people talking about a Perl 6 hackathon in Germany.
10:22 Su-Shee nwc10: yes, I were, but in general.
10:23 nwc10 in that, there's going to be a hackathon, *almost* in Germany: http://act.useperl.at/apw2014/news
10:23 Su-Shee nwc10: make it probably europe...
10:23 Su-Shee haha :)
10:23 nwc10 hopefully 4km on the other side of the border isn't a problem.
10:23 Su-Shee "almost!" good enough! well they kind of speak german as well! ;)
10:23 Su-Shee nwc10: no, I love the accent anyways. ;)
10:23 nwc10 As far as I can tell, they speak it better than the Venese
10:24 Su-Shee nwc10: I'm from Hannover, every other german is "an accent" for me. ;)
10:24 nwc10 Strong Vienna dialect seems to be about as German as a Glaswegian dialect is English.
10:25 nwc10 also, Salzburg has trolleybuses. If that matters.
10:25 Su-Shee nwc10: I'm working up to a Mozart pun.
10:26 * masak .oO( am I? Deus! )
10:26 Su-Shee masak: yeah ok.. good enough.. ;)
10:26 nwc10 oh balls, are we into puns again?
10:27 nwc10 (that's a meta-Mozart pun, and probably not obvious)
10:36 lizmat unless you're into chocolate
10:51 colomon joined #perl6
10:54 grondilu joined #perl6
10:55 grondilu r: say ([1], -> @p { [0, @p Z+ @p, 0] } ... *)[2]
10:55 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 354c5c: OUTPUT«1 2 1␤»
10:55 grondilu r: say ([1], -{ [0, @_ Z+ @_, 0] } ... *)[2]
10:55 camelia rakudo-jvm 354c5c: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'Numeric'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U \v: *%_)␤  in any  at gen/jvm/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1199␤  in sub prefix:<-> at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:4052␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
10:55 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 354c5c: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'Numeric'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U \v: *%_)␤  in any  at gen/parrot/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1206␤  in method Numeric at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:1007␤  in sub prefix:<-> at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:4056␤  in sub prefix:<-> at gen…»
10:55 camelia ..rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'Numeric'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U \v: *%_)␤  in sub prefix:<-> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4052␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
10:55 grondilu r: say ([1], { [0, @_ Z+ @_, 0] } ... *)[2]
10:55 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 354c5c: OUTPUT«1 3 2␤»
10:55 grondilu r: say ([1], -> @p { [0, @p Z+ @p, 0] } ... *)[2]
10:55 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 354c5c: OUTPUT«1 2 1␤»
10:56 grondilu weird, isn't it?
10:56 grondilu r: say ([1], { [0, @^p Z+ @^p, 0] } ... *)[2]
10:56 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 354c5c: OUTPUT«1 2 1␤»
10:56 grondilu r: say ([1], { [0, @^p Z+ @p, 0] } ... *)[2]
10:56 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 354c5c: OUTPUT«1 2 1␤»
10:56 grondilu r: say ([1], { [0, @_ Z+ @_, 0] } ... *)[2]
10:57 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 354c5c: OUTPUT«1 3 2␤»
10:57 grondilu r: say ([1], { [0, @$_ Z+ @$_, 0] } ... *)[2]
10:57 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 354c5c: OUTPUT«1 2 1␤»
10:57 grondilu oh I see
11:16 kivutar joined #perl6
11:19 FROGGS__ jnthn: I updated modules-test-m: https://gist.github.com/FR​OGGS/0ea5537eb675588baaa2
11:19 FROGGS__ especially "No object at index 167" is disturbing
11:20 * Ven likes type erasure
11:20 Ven it's one of the few things the JVM got right ...
11:20 Rounin Hm... I've heard lots of complaints about how JVM does exactly that
11:20 Rounin I suppose C# does it in an even fancier way
11:20 Rounin Generics I mean
11:21 Rounin Can't say I know or care very much how, but still
11:24 Ven FWIW, Haskell has even more type erasure than the JVM and it's never been a problem
11:24 Rounin Ah
11:24 Rounin It is a rather elegant solution, too... In how relatively simple it is
11:24 Rounin And it achieves a lot
11:25 Rounin Wikipedia describes the complaint... It notes that the parameterized types are no longer known at runtime, so one can't use reflection on them
11:25 Rounin Oh well
11:26 Ven Don't break parametricity and all will be well :)
11:31 ChoHag Do I have to use 'is' to define traits?
11:34 Ven ChoHag: trait_mod:<is> I think
11:46 FROGGS joined #perl6
11:50 jnthn FROGGS: ah crap...that'll be some kind of pre-comp failure...
11:50 jlaire joined #perl6
11:50 jnthn FROGGS: Any chance of bisecting it?
11:50 jnthn I don't *think* anything changed in Moar in regards to serialization.
11:51 jnthn I'm suspecting the S11 changes.
11:53 jnthn Ven: You can't implement the same generic interface multiple times in Java, parameterized differently. You can't parameterize on native types. You can't overlaod methods based on generic parameters. I do all 3 of these frequently in C# (well, not the last one so much as the first two...)
11:53 Ven jnthn: I think overloading methods based on generic parameters is a misfeature and shouldn't be allowed
11:54 Ven Some languages thought it was a good idea to include such overloads, then bit the dust
11:54 Ven (I'm thinking of std::vector<bool>, for example)
11:54 moritz Ven: then you haven't ever written a high performance matrix multiplication library :-)
11:54 moritz Ven: or used on, for that matter :-)
11:55 Ven moritz: by some regards, I probably have never used a "high performance" anything, compared to what people did before I even was born
11:55 jnthn Ven: It's not even a feature, it's a natural consequence of implementing generics properly.
11:56 Ven jnthn: by your definition or "generics", maybe. I stand by parametricity.
11:57 Ven if I have a function [T] -> Int, I want to know that for any list of the same size, I'm gonna get the same result.
11:57 jnthn Last I heard, they're pondering doing things the .Net way in the JVM in the future... Not sure if it'll actually come to pas.
11:57 jnthn *pass
11:57 nwc10 will it permit Larry (that one) to buy more yachts?
11:58 masak ooh, parametricity is related to natural transformations! why didn't you just *say* so? :P
11:58 Tene joined #perl6
11:58 Tene joined #perl6
12:00 jnthn nwc10: Sure; they can sell more training/expensive certifications in the new stuff :P
12:00 nwc10 win!
12:01 sqirrel joined #perl6
12:01 Ven masak: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/​7810909/media/doc/parametricity.pdf
12:01 nwc10 but will it cost more in engineering than it will earn in training revenue? Surely the plan is to optimise the language to maximise the ratio of traning revenue to engineering cost, without making it so hard that long term its popularity drops, jepardising mindshare and hence total revenue
12:02 nwc10 (that is not meant as buzzword bingo. That's meant as total cynicism about a certain firm's motivations)
12:03 FROGGS jnthn: this must be something that happened within a timeframe of a week, so its is either about spesh or inline
12:03 FROGGS jnthn: bisecting it in a bit
12:03 jnthn FROGGS: I'm skeptical.
12:03 Timbus ChoHag, no traits don't need is
12:05 Timbus m: multi trait_mod:<be>(Attribute $a, :$aching!) { ... };  class Yarr { has $.bones be aching; }; say 'alive'
12:05 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/AthFcFezDfâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/AthFcFezDf:1â�¤------> [32mng!) { ... };  class Yarr { has $.bones [33mâ��[31mbe aching; }; say 'alive'[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        scoped decl…»
12:05 Timbus :o
12:06 SamuraiJack joined #perl6
12:06 jnthn There are others (will, does, etc.) but you can't just go making up whatever you want :P
12:06 jnthn At least, not *yet*
12:07 djanatyn joined #perl6
12:07 jnthn nwc10: Much like at Microsoft, Oracle is big enough to have lots of people with lots of motivations.
12:07 jnthn So plenty can happen even if it's not That Larry's motivation :)
12:10 rurban joined #perl6
12:10 FROGGS please +1 https://github.com/FortAweso​me/Font-Awesome/issues/3015
12:11 masak Ven: interesting. I skimmed it.
12:12 masak Ven: realized I need to read that Wadler paper (which I've heard a lot about), and also the Danielson et al. I now have them queued up.
12:12 Ven masak: I have so many papers queued up :(.
12:13 Ven masak: https://kippt.com/Vendethiel/prog is my part one
12:15 smls joined #perl6
12:15 jnap joined #perl6
12:18 masak life ain't easy for us packrats.
12:19 lizmat r: { my $a="foo"; $a = ::($a); CATCH { say "CAUGHT $_"; default {} } }  # no CATCH???
12:19 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 354c5c: ( no output )
12:19 lizmat r: { my $a="foo"; ::($a); CATCH { say "CAUGHT $_"; default {} } }  # no CATCH???
12:19 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 354c5c: OUTPUT«CAUGHT No such symbol 'foo'␤»
12:19 lizmat ah that does catch
12:20 lizmat r: { my $a="foo"; $a = ::($a); CATCH { say "CAUGHT $_"; default {} }; say $a }  # also CAUGHT
12:20 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 354c5c: OUTPUT«CAUGHT No such symbol 'foo'␤»
12:20 lizmat masak: do you agree something weird is going on here ?
12:20 Ven masak: Uh, that's because I have so much to read that I think life is easy
12:22 masak lizmat: not offhand, no.
12:22 Ven lizmat: what seems to be wrong ?
12:22 masak lizmat: there's no symbol foo. and exception is thrown. it's caught.
12:22 lizmat but that's just it
12:22 dmol joined #perl6
12:22 lizmat in the first case, there is *NO* exception
12:23 masak ...hm.
12:23 masak Failure?
12:23 xusia joined #perl6
12:23 masak as in, it's not triggered until it's read?
12:23 lizmat ah....
12:23 lizmat hmmm....
12:23 masak sink context makes it trigger immediately?
12:23 lizmat yup
12:23 lizmat that would be it...  masak++
12:24 Ven m: { my $a="foo"; $a = ::($a); CATCH { say "CAUGHT $_"; default {} }; say $a; }  # no CATCH???
12:24 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«CAUGHT No such symbol 'foo'␤»
12:24 Ven I still think it's confusing to have this behavior without :=
12:27 FROGGS hmm, I do not see a connection between binding and exception throwing
12:28 FROGGS if I assing a Failure to a variable, and check that later (for truthness or for its type), then that is totally legal me thinks
12:30 lizmat hmmm.... I seems to be going around in circles
12:30 lizmat I have a string, e.g. "Int"
12:30 lizmat and I want to change that into a type object
12:30 lizmat ::($string) is the way to do that
12:30 tadzik .WHAT
12:30 tadzik oh
12:30 tadzik nvm
12:31 FROGGS .BUTT
12:31 lizmat .BUTT ?
12:31 FROGGS :P
12:31 lizmat did I miss something
12:31 FROGGS hold on
12:31 lizmat but even if that works, it is not defined, as it is a type object
12:31 FROGGS lizmat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbGkxcY7YFU
12:33 * lizmat doesn't do Flash, but I get the picture  :-)
12:33 FROGGS lizmat: what are you trying to achieve?
12:33 lizmat changing a given string into a type object, if possible
12:33 lizmat and trying to figure out how to handle it if it *didn't* work out
12:34 lizmat m: my $a = "Int"; say ::($a)
12:34 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
12:34 lizmat m: my $a = "Intf"; say ::($a)
12:34 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤No such symbol 'Intf'␤»
12:34 lizmat m: my $a = "Intf"; say ::($a); 1
12:34 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤No such symbol 'Intf'␤»
12:34 huf joined #perl6
12:34 lizmat m: my $a = "Intf"; my $b = ::($a)
12:34 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: No such symbol 'Intf'␤   at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:11391  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-1/languages/perl​6/runtime/CORE.setting.moarvm:throw:117)␤ from src/gen/m-CORE.setting:12845  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-1/​languages/perl6/runtime/CO…»
12:34 lizmat m: my $a = "Intf"; my $b = ::($a); 1
12:35 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: ( no output )
12:35 lizmat I guess checking for Failure would be the way, I guess
12:36 FROGGS ahh, yeah
12:36 FROGGS in somebody's code I've see: if ::('IO::Socket::INET') ~~ Failure { ...
12:37 dmol joined #perl6
12:37 * masak is very curious what came next
12:38 FROGGS I forgot
12:38 masak "...hokay, so we don't have that type. then we, um. uh."
12:38 FROGGS but it was about using a newly introduced thingy without breaking back compat
12:38 masak ah.
12:39 telex joined #perl6
12:40 FROGGS it's not in star
12:40 FROGGS panda has this though:
12:40 FROGGS star/modules/panda/lib/Panda/Builder.pm:61:            if ::('Build').isa(Panda::Builder) {
12:42 telex joined #perl6
12:43 masak interesting.
12:43 masak "build if Build.pm is there and produces a Panda::Builder"
12:43 masak but "do nothing if it's not or doesn't" surprised me a bit :)
12:44 FROGGS it calls Build.pm's build method when the condition holds, otherwise it does what it usually does :o)
12:44 masak no, there's no "otherwise". otherwise it does nothing.
12:44 masak regardless, it does what it usually does.
12:45 masak nice use of 'indir' and 'withp6lib' blocks, by the way.
12:45 FROGGS s/otherwise/and then/
12:45 masak that looks like very mature Perl 6 code.
12:45 masak well, except for the '1;' statements at the end, which remind me of Perl 5 modules :P
12:47 xenoterracide joined #perl6
12:56 FROGGS masak: this was about the 'for loop as the last statement' weirdness
12:56 skids joined #perl6
13:03 masak FROGGS: that explains the first '1;' but not the second.
13:05 FROGGS masak: I think tadzik++ was just scared :o)
13:06 sergot what does ::() do?
13:06 tadzik skerrd
13:06 carlin joined #perl6
13:07 tadzik the 1; come from the fact that the last statement used to be sinked
13:07 tadzik or something
13:07 tadzik all in all, didn't work, so instead of trying to understand it I thought I'll wait until the spec changes and put 1;'s in there meanwhile
13:07 tadzik no rugrats
13:08 lizmat sergot: runtime lookup, syntactic sugar for all sorts of mop stuff :-)
13:08 donaldh [Coke]: I reproduced your perl6-roast-data error on an Ubuntu VM with 4GB RAM and no swap.
13:09 sergot lizmat++ thanks :)
13:10 lizmat masak / jnthn probably have a better description of what ::() does
13:12 FROGGS it is a runtime symbol lookup, aye
13:12 FROGGS so you have a way to load a class at runtime for example
13:12 FROGGS (or check for its existence)
13:12 simcop2387 joined #perl6
13:13 FROGGS m: say ::('Match').new
13:13 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«「」␤␤»
13:13 FROGGS m: say ::('Mätch').new
13:13 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 2␤  in method new at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:12814␤  in block  at /tmp/1G9j4TEcdj:1␤␤»
13:13 FROGGS m: say ::('Mätch').WHAT
13:13 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«(Failure)␤»
13:14 sergot FROGGS++ thanks :)
13:14 lizmat yup, that's the tricky thing I ran into
13:14 pecastro joined #perl6
13:15 masak lizmat: "runtime lookup" sums it up, methinks.
13:16 Ven But it poisons the scope, doesn't it ?
13:16 Ven or is just setting to a dynamic lookup that does ?
13:16 Rounin Poison running through my $var
13:16 FROGGS it is an indirect lookup
13:17 FROGGS I dont understand what "poisons the scope" means btw
13:17 lizmat perhaps with regard to optimizations ?
13:17 rurban joined #perl6
13:18 molaf joined #perl6
13:19 Ven FROGGS: I mean this https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blo​b/04fe6d75cafc738d1a98ba2b306b53fb85​d4f8c7/src/Perl6/Optimizer.nqp#L418
13:20 FROGGS Ven: no idea if it results in that being set
13:21 masak that's exactly the kind of static/dynamic tension that I find myself interested in.
13:30 Ven as a macro guy, I can guess :P
13:33 colomon joined #perl6
13:34 dalek rakudo/nom: 5007abc | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/CompUnitRepo/Locally.pm:
13:34 dalek rakudo/nom: Make sure we can do .Str/gist/perl on type objects
13:34 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5007abc5d8
13:34 dalek rakudo/nom: 0c069f5 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/CompUnitRepo.pm:
13:34 dalek rakudo/nom: Initial implementation of CompUnitRepo.parse-spec
13:34 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0c069f50da
13:36 [Coke] moritz, donaldh: that did it.
13:36 kivutar joined #perl6
13:36 donaldh Some swap ?
13:39 Woodi joined #perl6
13:39 [Coke] aye. with 4G "real" 4G swap, it completed normally.
13:40 [Coke] so, running the spec test suite takes more than 4G.
13:40 [Coke] That sounds like something is leaking.
13:41 [Coke] donaldh++ moritz++
13:42 bluescreen10 joined #perl6
13:42 dalek rakudo-star-daily: a67ef73 | coke++ | log/ (14 files):
13:42 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
13:42 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/a67ef73be8
13:42 donaldh Well the jvm is taking 3GB. Then there is the test harness, the eval-client, the OS, etc.
13:42 [Coke] yes, but when I tried to limit the harness to, say, 2GB, I had the same failure.
13:43 donaldh Yeah, I was surprised at that. Do large tmp files also eat available RAM ?
13:43 [Coke] and the client should hardly be using anything, neh?
13:44 jnthn Using ::(...) will poision some optimizations, yes
13:44 jnthn Use of pseudopackages too
13:45 jnthn The presence of those two just means we can't do certain analyses precisely enough.
13:45 [Coke] moar & parrot R*s are clean; still failing some modules on jvm
13:48 jnthn Hmm...what? FROGGS++ reported moar R* failure a moment ago. Wonder what's the difference...
13:52 masak should END phasers run on ^C ?
13:52 * masak thinks they should
13:52 Ven jnthn: yeah, so, if I want to do that, I try to should put it in a sub somewhere else to avoid poisoning the whole scope ?
13:52 * Ven does that in JS when he needs eval or something
13:53 jnthn masak: Probably not by default.
13:53 jnthn masak: but if you really want to make sure of it, then signal(SIG_INT).tap({ exit(1) }); or so
13:53 lizmat and that *would* run the END phasers ?
13:53 jnthn exit makes sure to
13:54 lizmat aha....
13:54 jnthn I learned tapping SIGINIT from your lightning talk :P
13:54 lizmat so normally, control-C is caught outside of rakudo, really?
13:54 jnthn Normally we don't ahve a signal handler, it's not caught, and the default behavior is immediate termination, which is likely a good thing.
13:55 ChoHag In S17 the documentation for a Promise refers to the excuse method, but Promise.pm defines cause.
13:55 masak ah. Perl 5 doesn't run END phasers on ^C. good enough for me.
13:55 masak carry on :)
13:55 FROGGS m: 1 1
13:55 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/IzMnoZx0fYâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/IzMnoZx0fY:1â�¤------> [32m1 [33mâ��[31m1[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfixâ�¤        infix stopperâ�¤        infix or meta-infixâ�¤        s…»
13:59 btyler joined #perl6
13:59 carlin I like zypper on opensuse handles ^C, on the first ^C it tries to gracefully exit
14:00 carlin after 2 ^C it says "OK OK! Exiting immediately" and terminates
14:02 [Coke] jnthn: (moar) I am using moar latest, nqp latest, and modules-latest
14:02 [Coke] the thought being that it's an early warning to let you know if things break.
14:02 * [Coke] hurls https://github.com/coke/rakud​o-star-daily/tree/master/log
14:02 [Coke] look at the MoarVM* logs.
14:03 [Coke] the version log .... doesn't have the moarvm version. wtf.
14:04 [particle] joined #perl6
14:04 [Coke] odd: this is at the end of a moar config: https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/​blob/master/log/MoarVM-configure.log#L594
14:04 [Coke] why is it complaining about parrot??
14:04 thou joined #perl6
14:05 [Coke] sorry, actually the config step of rakudo.moar, that appears to be an nqp complaint. still, odd.
14:05 FROGGS seems like it tries to clean parrot...
14:05 Timbus m: (1..*).sort; #ok
14:05 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot .sort an infinite list␤   at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:11391  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-1/languages/perl​6/runtime/CORE.setting.moarvm:throw:117)␤ from src/gen/m-CORE.setting:12845  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-1/languages/perl6/ru…»
14:05 [Coke] ;(maybe it's because I'm doing some cheating when building the R*'s individually)
14:05 Timbus m: (5, 1..*).sort; #w
14:05 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot use negative index -9223372036854775808 on List␤»
14:06 [Coke] m: (5,1...*).sort #q
14:06 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot .sort an infinite list␤   at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:11391  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-1/languages/perl​6/runtime/CORE.setting.moarvm:throw:117)␤ from src/gen/m-CORE.setting:12845  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-1/languages/perl6/ru…»
14:07 dalek rakudo/nom: 0bea66a | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/ChangeLog:
14:07 dalek rakudo/nom: Mention some more changes in ChangeLog
14:07 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0bea66a752
14:07 TimToady different precedence between .. and ...
14:08 TimToady and currently a parcel containing an infinite list is not marked as infinite, it seems
14:08 lizmat can a Parcel have an indefinite number of elems?
14:08 TimToady no
14:10 TimToady since it's tied rather closely to the number of syntactic commas, or equivalent number of operators that do comma-like things
14:10 lizmat looks like it though:
14:10 lizmat m: (5, 1..*).WHAT.say; (5, 1..*).elems.say
14:10 TimToady like X or Z
14:10 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«(Parcel)␤Inf␤»
14:10 lizmat but that;s probably because Parcel.elems inherits from Any, which does .list
14:10 TimToady that's just summing the .elems of each element
14:11 TimToady m: (5,1..3).elems.say
14:11 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«4␤»
14:11 lizmat method elems() { self.flat.elems }
14:11 lizmat indeed
14:11 FROGGS jnthn: the r-m* fails are my fault... I exported PERL6LIB in my .bashrc, so wrong candidates were picked up
14:12 FROGGS jnthn: can we fixes these things together? https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-dai​ly/blob/master/log/jvm-test-modules.log
14:12 FROGGS jnthn: so that we discuss the issues a bit so that I perhaps have enough to fix something
14:13 ChoHag Is there a standard way to say 'if any($a|$b|$c) { return $it } else { ... }'?
14:13 [Coke] .tell kid51 Pending parrot-nyc-users request that I can't do anything with. it's been pinging me for a few days
14:13 yoleaux [Coke]: I'll pass your message to kid51.
14:13 FROGGS jnthn: ohh, my modules/perl6-lwp-simple still fails on r-m*
14:14 [Coke] FROGGS: not in my run I did 4 hours ago...
14:14 [Coke] are you using the latest version, or the R* recommended version?
14:14 FROGGS [Coke]: using HEAD
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14:15 atroxaper Hello, #perl6 !
14:15 FROGGS hi atrodo
14:15 FROGGS err
14:15 FROGGS hi atroxaper
14:15 atroxaper I just read Carl's last post. Really cool!
14:15 atroxaper FROGGS: Hi! :)
14:16 PerlJam r: my @stuff = <1 2 3>; ?any(@stuff) || do say "hi";
14:16 masak atroxaper: thank you. :)
14:16 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 354c5c: ( no output )
14:16 atroxaper masak: thank You :)
14:16 atroxaper masak: but i don't know what is 'so' in Perl 6? In which S can i read about that?
14:17 PerlJam ChoHag: anyway ... like that. But I don't know if I'd call it "standard"
14:17 masak atroxaper: 'so' is just like prefix:<?>, but it's a sub.
14:17 Ven atroxaper: it's prefix:<?>
14:17 Ven atroxaper: basically -- forces boolean context
14:17 masak atroxaper: you'll find me using it when I want to "collapse" a junction into a single Bool.
14:18 PerlJam so, I guess I should have used so in my example to ChoHag   :)
14:18 * [Coke] dislikes calling those "contexts", though it does seem five-ish to do so.
14:18 ChoHag standard was the wrong word.
14:18 atroxaper masak, Ven: ohh. I didn't know that. Thanks ;)
14:19 PerlJam masak++ btw,  I too just read about boxes and pebbles.  Nice post!
14:21 colomon +1 masak++
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14:26 sergot Do you know the "Cannot find method 'Stringy'" error?
14:28 sergot I found out that "use" causes it when used package has i.e. variable-not-declared error.
14:29 TimToady m: class Good { submethod BUILD (:$.allowed?) { } }; class Bad { submethod BUILD (:$prohibited!) { $.prohibited = $prohibited } }
14:29 camelia rakudo-moar 354c5c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/jYLsmt9_C5�Virtual call $.prohibited may not be used on partially constructed objects�at /tmp/jYLsmt9_C5:1�------> [32mhod BUILD (:$prohibited!) { $.prohibited[33m�[31m = $prohibited } }…»
14:30 TimToady jnthn: ^^^ this is kinda odd, thinking about http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2014-06-17#i_8883668
14:31 TimToady though we do allow self.foo as a workaround in the body, which is not available in the siggy
14:32 dalek nqp: a5894d2 | donaldh++ | tools/jvm/eval-client.pl:
14:32 dalek nqp: Make eval client die on connect failure.
14:32 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/a5894d2b2b
14:32 TimToady I'm kinda wondering whether people will get into trouble by allowing the . form in the signature
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15:01 lizmat commute towards the NRPM meeting&
15:01 donaldh_ joined #perl6
15:02 masak PerlJam, colomon: thanks :)
15:03 masak it was a bit of a perfect storm of fun puzzle, inspiration, and a Perl 6 day.
15:03 masak but if I can spend the rest of my life writing such posts about such puzzles, I'll be a very happy masak.
15:05 * PerlJam wishes masak the blessing of the perfect storm of fun puzzles, inspiration and Perl 6 every day then
15:06 masak \o/
15:07 atroxaper joined #perl6
15:08 Ven .oO( I have one happy masak at one, I'll lend it to you someday )
15:08 Ven at home*
15:09 Ven .oO( I'm not lendind it to my keyboard, either way. )
15:09 masak clearly not.
15:20 donaldh_ joined #perl6
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15:26 rurban_ parrot-6.5.0 released. nqp should be bumped. fixes for nqp: icu detection, icu workaround for control char namealiases, better GC writer barriers (more in branch pmc2c_orig)
15:29 masak rurban_++
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16:02 japhb Anyone who worked on RC entries or knows them well: I'm looking for more good RC-based tests for perl6-bench.  They should be computationally non-trivial, and preferably scalable in some way (image/board size or frame/turn count for graphics or game simulators, packet size/count for network I/O, and so on).  With hundreds of Perl 6 entries, it's hard to wade through and find the gems ....
16:03 xinming joined #perl6
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16:28 FROGGS rurban++ # I'll test rakudo and rakudo-star in a bit with parrot 6.5.0
16:30 masak japhb: maybe http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Maze_generation#Perl_6 http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Maze_solving#Perl_6 http://rosettacode.org/wiki​/Ramsey%27s_theorem#Perl_6 http://rosettacode.org/wiki/S​elf-describing_numbers#Perl_6 http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Dragon_curve#Perl_6 ?
16:32 pdcawley joined #perl6
16:38 japhb masak, thank you!
16:38 masak (I'm not that often on RC, but that's what stood out from just glancing at the tasks)
16:38 timotimo japhb++ # perl6-bench hacking
16:39 japhb :-)
16:39 psch i might be doing something wrong again, but jakudo doesn't build on 32bit for me. i was trying to reproduce https://gist.github.com/pe​schwa/5ede3a120d2d4a81141b there
16:39 psch on jakudo that is
16:40 timotimo masak: is there a pun behind the "Meow Room"s in your cat hotel?
16:43 dalek doc/redesign: d77582f | Mouq++ | htmlify.p6:
16:43 dalek doc/redesign: Some fixes after 1dfd619f070
16:43 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/d77582fb68
16:47 jnthn TimToady: d'oh, yeah, I forgot about the virtual call thing.
16:48 jnthn FROGGS: What is current modules status? Still some r-m failure?
16:48 jnthn FROGGS: Or did you figure out what's the difference between what you have and the [Coke]++ run?
16:50 xenoterracide joined #perl6
16:53 xenoterracide joined #perl6
16:54 xenoterracide http://perlcabal.org/syn/S1​2.html#Custom_Meta-objects are there working examples of COMPOSE somewhere?
16:55 jnthn xenoterracide: No, 'cus it's NYI
16:56 jnthn I wrote that chunk of the spec a little while ago, but didn't get around to turning it into reality yet
16:56 xenoterracide :/
16:57 xenoterracide jnthn: so am I right in my assumption that applying a role to the metaclass at this point is impossible without directly patching (which seems to be less than straightforward)
16:59 fhelmberger joined #perl6
16:59 FROGGS jnthn: still one fail
16:59 FROGGS jnthn: same as last month me thinks: https://gist.github.com/FROGGS/0ea553​7eb675588baaa2#file-modules-test-m-sh
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17:00 jnthn xenoterracide: Seems so
17:00 jnthn I can't imagine it's far off working, though
17:01 masak timotimo: not as far as I can remember.
17:01 jnthn FROGGS: OK, but how come you get the error but [Coke]'s run doesn't? Is it the same module version?
17:01 masak timotimo: I mean, not beyond the fact that cats say "Meow".
17:02 xenoterracide jnthn: ok thanks
17:02 Mouq FROGGS: Does versioning on modules work yet? I just made a change to Pod::To::HTML and doc/redesign needs the latest -- can I put a version string on both and now have to worry about others using an old Pod::To::HTML?
17:02 segomos_ jnthn: re: moar vs jvm async sockets, was the thought that the jvm is using blocking sockets and that is why the http::server::async is working and that moar is using the io::socket::async ?
17:03 Mouq s/now/not
17:03 fhelmberger joined #perl6
17:05 FROGGS jnthn: it is possible that I updated the module and [Coke] did not
17:05 FROGGS Mouq: versions are not being used yet
17:05 FROGGS they are noops
17:06 Mouq FROGGS: Ok, thank you :)
17:08 lizmat joined #perl6
17:09 dalek doc/redesign: 24be2c4 | Mouq++ | / (3 files):
17:09 dalek doc/redesign: Do index.html as lib/HomePage.pod with =Html blocks
17:09 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/24be2c4a3f
17:10 lizmat Mouq: versioning on modules doesn't work yet
17:10 jnthn segomos_: My guess was that writing to an async socket may block on JVM, or something happens to make .close be executed later
17:11 lizmat Mouq: that's what I'm working on atm
17:11 jnthn segomos_: But just looking at the code in the module, it looks wrong to me. .write and .send on an async socket return a Promise.
17:11 lizmat but won't have it ready for this month's release  :-(
17:12 jnthn segomos_: And I didn't see that being used.
17:12 jnthn segomos_: So I think the socket really does ahve .close called on it before the .write has chance to happen.
17:12 segomos_ jnthn: i'm working on fixing that right now to see if that fixes the problem on moar
17:12 dalek perl6-roast-data: ec0aa1e | coke++ | / (6 files):
17:12 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
17:13 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/ec0aa1ef07
17:13 PerlJam what's a "role-group"? (From looking at http://perlcabal.org/syn/S1​2.html#Custom_Meta-objects)
17:13 Mouq lizmat++
17:13 masak timotimo: in retrospect, what should I have called the "Meow Rooms"? :)
17:14 dalek doc/redesign: a6ae155 | Mouq++ | lib/Language/terms.pod:
17:14 dalek doc/redesign: Add some terms from terms.pod
17:14 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/a6ae155921
17:14 masak PerlJam: it's an internal implementation detail that users generally don't need to worry about.
17:14 masak m: role R[T] {}; role R[S, T] {}; # those two are in the same role-group
17:14 camelia rakudo-moar 0bea66: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/jF__IyUK4_�Invalid typename 'T' in parameter declaration.�at /tmp/jF__IyUK4_:1�------> [32mrole R[T[33m�[31m] {}; role R[S, T] {}; # those two are i[0m�»
17:14 masak er.
17:15 masak m: role R[::T] {}; role R[::S, ::T] {}
17:15 camelia rakudo-moar 0bea66: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Could not instantiate role 'R':␤Not enough positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 3␤   at <unknown>:1  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-1/languages/nqp/lib/​Perl6/Metamodel.moarvm:specialize:4294967295)␤ from src/gen/m-Metamode…»
17:15 jnthn Tssk. Bad sinking.
17:15 masak m: role R[::T] {}; role R[::S, ::T] {}; 1
17:15 camelia rakudo-moar 0bea66: ( no output )
17:15 masak there we go.
17:15 timotimo masak: no clue :S
17:15 * masak hates sinking
17:16 dalek doc/redesign: 841c5b5 | Mouq++ | TODO:
17:16 dalek doc/redesign: Update TODO
17:16 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/841c5b56a7
17:16 masak timotimo: ...probably why I couldn't think of an actual pun there :P
17:16 timotimo mhm
17:16 thou joined #perl6
17:16 PerlJam so ... if roles were like multi subs, a role-group would be like all the multis that share the same short name?
17:17 jnthn Pretty much that
17:17 timotimo how do i define a protorole? :P
17:17 jnthn And they are resolved using the multi-dispatcher, so the analagy goes really deep
17:21 lizmat .oO( ah, profiteroles  :-)
17:23 * [Coke] has a 2 week vacation coming up, and wonders if he'll be able to carve out chunks of time for sixing.
17:23 dalek doc/redesign: c08160a | Mouq++ | lib/Type/Complex.pod:
17:23 dalek doc/redesign: Mark postfix i
17:23 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/c08160a236
17:24 timotimo Mouq++ # doc redesign implementation
17:24 dalek doc: 88a566a | duff++ | lib/Rat.pod:
17:24 dalek doc: minor typo fix
17:24 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/88a566af31
17:25 cognominal profiteroles++
17:25 [Coke] https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/bl​ob/master/log/rakudo.jvm_summary.out#L1718 - current rakjvm failures.
17:26 [Coke] ^^ do those require an env var of some kind that might not be set when running from cron?
17:26 [Coke] (they didn't fail when I ran it by hand last night)
17:26 [Coke] donaldh++
17:27 [Coke] .tell donaldh Thanks for perservering and getting the eval server stuff working for me. Having these tests run in a fraction of the time makes it much more usable.
17:27 yoleaux [Coke]: I'll pass your message to donaldh.
17:27 [Coke] currently there are no clue rakudo spec test runs. :(
17:27 [Coke] s/clue/clean
17:29 jnap joined #perl6
17:30 [Coke] jvm fails 28, moar fails 3, parrot fails 8.
17:30 lizmat the deprecations fails are on my list
17:31 [Coke] lizmat++ # those are failing on moar/parrot, but not java.
17:31 dmol joined #perl6
17:31 lizmat they're casualties of the say/note optimizations
17:32 lizmat r: say $*OS
17:32 camelia rakudo-jvm 0bea66: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
17:32 camelia ..rakudo-{parrot,moar} 0bea66: OUTPUT«linux␤»
17:32 [Coke] ah, maybe we just need a slightly more recent run?
17:33 [Coke] this was with rakudo:354c5c5
17:34 [Coke] https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/issues/29 if someone is haskell handy.
17:35 lizmat dinner&
17:35 [Coke] niecza is failing 1200 tests even. :|
17:42 denis_boyun_ joined #perl6
17:42 FROGGS no regressions with this in star: This is perl6 version Bajor-211-g0bea66a built on parrot 6.5.0 revision 0
17:43 rurban_ FROGGS: I just updated my roast pull request also
17:43 FROGGS rurban_++
17:44 FROGGS I am running spectests now, and will then bump and merge
17:44 rurban_ I'll do the nqp bump, because I also improved 6model WBs a bit
17:44 Sqirrel joined #perl6
17:44 dalek nqp: 898c35f | rurban++ | src/vm/parrot/pmc/ (7 files):
17:44 dalek nqp: pmc2c_orig: optimize 6model pmcs for the new pmc2c
17:44 dalek nqp:
17:44 dalek nqp: Annotate several PMC methods for unneeded or manual GC write barriers.
17:44 dalek nqp: This requires the new pmc2c from parrot 6.5.0
17:44 dalek nqp:
17:44 dalek nqp: This is 2-4% faster for the nqp testsuite.
17:45 dalek nqp: $ perf stat -r2 prove -r --exec "./nqp-p --vmlibs=nqp_dyncall_ops" t/nqp t/hll t/qregex t/p5regex t/qast t/serialization
17:45 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/898c35f57d
17:45 dalek nqp: adf65bf | rurban++ | tools/build/PARROT_REVISION:
17:45 dalek nqp: Bump parrot to 6.5.0 with pmc2c_orig improvements and ICU fixes
17:45 dalek nqp:
17:45 dalek nqp: fixed icu detection on multi-arch systems (newer debians),
17:45 dalek nqp: icu 5.2 workaround for control char namealiases,
17:45 dalek nqp: better GC write barriers in 6model PMCs
17:45 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/adf65bfd24
17:45 [Coke] I am slightly concerned at all the bumping if we have a release RSN.
17:45 [Coke] doesn't give us a lot of time for testing.
17:45 rurban_ When is the rakudo release? old didn't pass the tests, new passes
17:45 FROGGS this thursday
17:46 rurban_ enough time
17:46 dalek perl6-roast-data: 9504dac | coke++ | README.md:
17:46 dalek perl6-roast-data: Don't call out rakudo.jvm, collapse pugs/niecza
17:46 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/9504dac4b1
17:46 FROGGS I also think it is really worth it
17:47 FROGGS [Coke]: that is why I tested star before we bumped the version
17:48 Alina-malina joined #perl6
17:48 rurban_ I also tested nqp/rakudo since Friday
17:50 rurban_ FROGGS: I don't understand why perl6-p does not deprecate $*OS. It's enterily backend unspecific: https://github.com/rurban/roast/commit/c​0d2692c49552ad7a55cda5a28db5e3104f03573
17:51 FROGGS m: say $*OS
17:51 camelia rakudo-moar 0bea66: OUTPUT«linux␤»
17:51 FROGGS j: say $*OS
17:51 camelia rakudo-jvm 0bea66: OUTPUT«Linux␤»
17:51 FROGGS p: say $*OS
17:51 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bea66: OUTPUT«linux␤»
17:51 FROGGS ??
17:52 rurban_ There should be deprecation notice according to the tests
17:52 FROGGS rurban_: <lizmat> the deprecations fails are on my list
17:52 rurban_ p: say $*OS; Deprecation.report
17:52 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bea66: OUTPUT«linux␤»
17:52 rurban_ m: say $*OS; Deprecation.report
17:52 camelia rakudo-moar 0bea66: OUTPUT«linux␤»
17:52 rurban_ m: say $*OS; is Deprecation.report
17:52 camelia rakudo-moar 0bea66: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/R0yob5Z4Npâ�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    is used at line 1â�¤â�¤Â»
17:53 FROGGS m: say $*VM<config>
17:53 camelia rakudo-moar 0bea66: OUTPUT«{"ar" => "ar", "arflags" => "rcs", "arout" => "", "asm" => ".s", "asmout" => "-o ", "asmswitch" => "-S", "auxclean" => "\@:", "be" => "0", "can_unaligned_int32" => "1", "can_unaligned_int64" => "1", "can_unaligned_num64" => "1", "cat" => "cat", "cc" => "gc…»
17:53 FROGGS m: $*VM<config>
17:53 camelia rakudo-moar 0bea66: OUTPUT«Saw 1 call to deprecated code during execution.␤========================​===================================​=====================␤$*VM<config> called at:␤  /tmp/u9Fbs4x1uv, line 1␤Please use $*VM.config instead.␤-----------------------------------…»
17:53 FROGGS p: $*VM<config>
17:53 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bea66: OUTPUT«Saw 1 call to deprecated code during execution.␤========================​===================================​=====================␤$*VM<config> called at:␤  /tmp/ppypYyZTAf, line 1␤Please use $*VM.config instead.␤---------------------------------…»
17:53 FROGGS so, problem is $*OS itself
17:53 rurban_ it's pretty new code I assume
17:53 FROGGS I guess so too
17:54 segomos_ jnthn: good call on the promises and socket closing prior to write -
17:54 rurban_ Anyway, I skipped those 2 fails for now. todo didnt work
17:55 segomos_ HTTP::Server::Async now works on both jvm and moar
17:55 FROGGS rurban_: when the issue is fixed, I'll leave that specific commit out - I'll cherry pick one-by-one anyway
17:56 jnthn segomos_: Cool! ab it! ;)
17:56 FROGGS hmmmm, I think I'm going to create a wrapper script for perl6-p also, so I get the executable name+path easily
17:56 liztormato joined #perl6
17:57 FROGGS because $*EXECUTABLE is just rubbish for perl6-p
17:57 liztormato Will look at $*OS issue later tonight
17:58 segomos_ jnthn: ? ab it?
17:58 segomos_ oh apache bench :-)
17:58 jnthn segomos_: apache benchmark? Or was it something else you were using to get the "what can she take" numbers? :)
18:04 segomos_ does close return a promise?
18:04 segomos_ doesn't look like it..
18:04 jnthn no, close is immediate
18:05 btyler joined #perl6
18:13 btyler (logging) I was running wrk against http-server-async, since wrk does a bit better job of concurrent connections than ab (so I've read)
18:14 rurban joined #perl6
18:14 jnthn ah, I see :)
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18:21 segomos_ hmm
18:21 segomos_ jnthn: i may need some more help
18:21 segomos_ https://github.com/tony-o/perl6-ht​tp-server-async/blob/master/ab.pl6
18:22 segomos_ if i run that with moar and then use ab with concurrency set to 1 (1 request at a time), i still segfault
18:23 rurban joined #perl6
18:28 segomos_ it segfaults on moar after a random number of requests
18:28 segomos_ meetings always get in the way of more fun things
18:39 dalek doc/redesign: e0ec0eb | Mouq++ | / (2 files):
18:39 dalek doc/redesign: Code clean-up
18:39 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/e0ec0eb572
18:39 dalek doc/redesign: 81ef317 | Mouq++ | html (2 files):
18:39 dalek doc/redesign: Fix routines' lists of sources
18:39 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/81ef31707a
18:40 dalek doc/redesign: 88a566a | duff++ | lib/Rat.pod:
18:40 dalek doc/redesign: minor typo fix
18:40 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/88a566af31
18:40 dalek doc/redesign: 32abab9 | Mouq++ | lib/Type/Rat.pod:
18:40 dalek doc/redesign: Merge branch 'master' into redesign
18:40 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/32abab93be
18:47 dalek doc/redesign: cd88672 | Mouq++ | / (3 files):
18:47 dalek doc/redesign: Add non-faded Camelia image for the home page
18:47 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/cd88672ccc
18:48 [Coke] n: use Test; throws_like;
18:48 camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    'throws_like' used at line 1â�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1502 (die @ 5) â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1147 (P…»
18:49 brrt joined #perl6
18:49 anaeem1 joined #perl6
18:52 [Coke] m: use Test; throws_like {die "whee"}, "hi";
18:52 camelia rakudo-moar 0bea66: OUTPUT«    1..2␤    ok 1 - code dies␤    not ok 2 - right exception type (Str)␤    # Got:      (X::AdHoc)␤    # Expected: hi␤    # Exception message: whee␤    # Looks like you failed 1 tests of 2␤not ok 1 - did we throws_like Str?␤»
18:53 [Coke] t/spec/S12-methods/private.t says 12 tests, but it should be 14, yes?
18:54 * moritz just manually counted 11
18:55 moritz [Coke]: throws_like used to run as several tests, now it's one test with subtests
18:55 moritz 12 is correct
18:55 FROGGS 12
18:56 FROGGS [Coke]: even when niecza had throws_like, it does not have typed exceptions
18:58 FROGGS m: my $VERSION = 1; say "LWP::Simple/$VERSION Perl6/$*PERL.compiler.name"
18:58 camelia rakudo-moar 0bea66: OUTPUT«LWP::Simple/1 Perl6/Perl 6.compiler.name␤»
19:06 FROGGS that is what I want to fix tonight:
19:06 FROGGS froggs@TL02L-R8RXTCW-linux:~/dev/rakudo$ echo '1 1' > Hurz.pm
19:06 FROGGS froggs@TL02L-R8RXTCW-linux:~/dev/rakudo$ perl6-m -I. -e 'use Hurz'
19:06 FROGGS Unhandled exception: Cannot find method 'Stringy': no method cache and no .^find_method
19:06 rindolf joined #perl6
19:07 FROGGS only moar is affected, the others show the TTIAR correctly
19:09 labster joined #perl6
19:09 dwarring joined #perl6
19:11 liztormato I'm pretty sure that will be fixed soon
19:12 vendethiel When I'm reading some old perlmonks post and "[if perl6 hadn't been a rewrite] Had this been done we might have gotten something in 2-4 years that was production ready (ran all of CPAN) and cleaned up the worst warts. ..."
19:12 vendethiel It was in 2010, but even then, py3 was in a pretty bad shape, and I think php6 just got abandoned :D
19:18 Mouq .oO( we might have but what we have now works really well and there's no point in being bitter when we can move forward with such an increadibly powerful language as Perl 6 has become )
19:20 liztormato I think history has shown that bolting on Perl 6 features on Perl 5 doesn't necessarily work out well
19:21 vendethiel haha yeah, pmichaud is actually saying "people like p5.10 because it has ~~ !" :P
19:21 vendethiel we know how history went ...
19:23 * moritz likes 5.10 for // and say()
19:23 liztormato And state. Or was that later?
19:23 geekosaur some people like smartmatching in p5 a lot. but it was troublesome enough that it's been re-tagged experimental
19:24 geekosaur doesn't help that p5's smartmatching is the early p6 one that had to be thrown out and reworked completely
19:24 Su-Shee never used it. not once..
19:24 Su-Shee neither given when.. never needed it..
19:28 liztormato left #perl6
19:28 * PerlJam wishes given/when didn't trigger an "experimental" warning in P5
19:29 PerlJam I never *needed* them, but they sure were nice to have (with sane semantics :)
19:29 maraisf joined #perl6
19:30 maraisf left #perl6
19:33 * vendethiel is ready on "why is perl bad" and sees some of the stuff perl 6 fixed
19:33 vendethiel though it's a c2 page
19:35 masak state was something like 5.14, I think.
19:35 rurban_ state is actually used sometimes
19:36 vendethiel it's funny; because I know I read this page before. But I didn't know 'bout p6
19:37 properl6ly joined #perl6
19:37 masak vendethiel: ...and what's your honest opinion about p6?
19:38 vendethiel masak: some stuff I don't like, and that's probably never gonna get fixed
19:38 PerlJam vendethiel: oh?  what don't you like?
19:38 vendethiel masak: but if I *have* to use a "scripting language", I'd probably use it.
19:38 vendethiel PerlJam: first one will be flattening. I consider that a terrible misfeature
19:39 vendethiel Because Perl6 makes me really, really, really much more comfortable about my code than the ruby I do during the day.
19:39 masak vendethiel: (a) some things I don't like either, (b) I don't like flattening so much either, (c) no, it's not gonna get fixed
19:39 vendethiel Because I know in 90% of the cases, the typos etc are gonna get catched at compile-time, and I love it.
19:39 PerlJam vendethiel: er, you object to flattening in general, or the sometimes automatic flattening that happens in certain contexts?
19:39 vendethiel PerlJam: flattening. It's a terrible idea.
19:40 masak PerlJam: speaking for myself, I think flattening occasionally helps. but it doesn't "carry its own weight".
19:40 vendethiel And the fact that it sometimes-flatten-sometimes-doesn't (oh, sure, there are rules -- that doesn't mean it's good.)
19:40 masak PerlJam: in that sense, it's a bit like varying sigils.
19:40 PerlJam perhaps.
19:40 vendethiel I don't like $!, because I think it's really, really confusing with !$ and I usually mess them up visually
19:40 masak in Python and JavaScript, the lack of flattening makes me more confident about the at-sight semantics of code.
19:41 PerlJam masak: but do you also not like the ability to pack/unpack data structures?
19:41 masak vendethiel: oh, that's just a train-the-eye thing. and perhaps a color-scheme-your-editor thing.
19:41 vendethiel .oO( My WTF-counter would sigh "at-sigh" )
19:41 masak PerlJam: that can be done in other ways, such as with destructuring.
19:41 vendethiel masak: haha, my editor (ST) is using a Perl5 highlighter, so yeah, tooling would fix it :)
19:41 masak :)
19:42 vendethiel I don't like the p5 error messages catching a bit too much, but that's probably gonna fixed -- TimToady++ actually made progress on that
19:43 vendethiel I don't really like `BUILD` with `bless`, because I feel like that's something I, as a user, should never have to mess with
19:43 masak Perl 6 error messages are (asymtotically approaching) awesome.
19:43 vendethiel But irrelevant for a non-p5 programmar like me
19:43 vendethiel (I do agree, though <3)
19:44 carlin I like how vim highlights `sub foo($blah) {}` when it doesn't understand you're writing Perl 6
19:44 masak vendethiel: I find it weird that our primitive for creating new objects out of thin air ended up being spelled 'bless'. :)
19:44 vendethiel oh, and I hate P6's interpolation.
19:44 masak I don't love P6's interpolation. but I've also found that I don't love any language's interpolation.
19:44 vendethiel I think I'll keep using the no-interpolation modifier everytime I use `"` (well, except for {}) :c ?
19:45 masak I suspect there's no non-ugly interpolation syntax out there.
19:45 vendethiel #{} in ruby is good. It's reliable, I know where it starts, where it ends, etc
19:45 PerlJam The only interpolation I have issues with is the one with trailing brackets.   We have {}, why not just use them?
19:45 japhb masak: IIRC the original version of that was "bless an object into a class", in which case the verb makes sense (both literally and poetically)
19:46 vendethiel Oh, and I really feel limited with runtime VS compile-time distinction, but I think with the HOWs and the macros, it's okay :).
19:47 vendethiel I think I love every single other of p6. Because it's amazing.
19:47 vendethiel Oh, no, I don't really like the implicit %*, but that's a debate for another day :P.
19:47 masak japhb: "original" for Perl or for Perl 6?
19:47 * vendethiel shower& while waiting on comments
19:48 masak vendethiel: I'd love to debate the %* thing inside and out. it's one of those really annoying features with a really good intent.
19:49 dwarring r: my @a=(1,2); @a.push: item (3,4); say @a.perl
19:49 jnthn What %* thing?
19:49 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 0bea66: OUTPUT«Array.new(1, 2, $(3, 4))␤»
19:49 jnthn oh, the implicit *%_?
19:49 * PerlJam starts to think masak and vendethiel a little crazy  ;)
19:50 dwarring r: my @a=(1,2); my @b = (3,4); @a.push: item @b; say @a.perl
19:50 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 0bea66: OUTPUT«Array.new(1, 2, 3, 4)␤»
19:50 dwarring ^^ that's flattening when it shouldn't be
19:54 * dwarring rakudobug
19:54 TimToady m: my @a=(1,2); my @b = (3,4); @a.push: @b.item; say @a.perl
19:54 camelia rakudo-moar 0bea66: OUTPUT«Array.new(1, 2, [3, 4])␤»
19:54 TimToady a workaround for the bug
19:54 jnthn wtf is item doing...
19:58 TimToady m: my @a=(1,2); my @b = (3,4); @a.push: $@b; say @a.perl
19:58 camelia rakudo-moar 0bea66: OUTPUT«Array.new(1, 2, [3, 4])␤»
19:58 TimToady another workaround
19:59 jnthn > my @a=(1,2); my @b = (3,4); @a.push: item @b; say @a.perl
19:59 jnthn Array.new(1, 2, [3, 4])
19:59 jnthn Local fix :P
20:00 * jnthn builds a non-debug Moar so spectest won't be glacial
20:02 vendethiel PerlJam: sorry - is it bad to be crazy ?
20:02 vendethiel masak: same here :)
20:02 vendethiel jnthn: yes
20:02 thou joined #perl6
20:03 vendethiel PerlJam: I want to be able to reason about my code. flattening makes me unable to do so
20:03 vendethiel (not because I'm "used to it", but because I fail to see consistency in it)
20:03 PerlJam no, it's not bad to be crazy.  Many people are crazy and it's awesome! : )
20:03 PerlJam er :)
20:04 jnthn vendethiel: I don't find that to be a problem...never really did in Perl 5 either, tbh.
20:04 vendethiel jnthn: I never did perl 5, sorry
20:04 vendethiel and I'm really happy with ruby2 kwargs, because they remove the typo factor
20:04 vendethiel p6 really carried out this one, so I'd love it to be pushed a bit more :P
20:05 jnthn vendethiel: Sure, just saying I don't find flattening in either language painful.
20:05 jnthn Well, implementation wise, perhaps sometimes :P
20:05 vendethiel jnthn: oh, you mean flattening. I thought, you meant *%_
20:05 jnthn Oh, *%_ mostly bothered me from a "how the heck to optimize it" point of view...
20:06 jnthn Well, partly still does, but I manage to optimize it out in places.
20:06 jnthn Taht's an implementor view though :)
20:07 vendethiel jnthn++ # "Dirty Work"
20:07 PerlJam I don't find flattening painful (or even slightly annoying), but I wonder if it's necessary?  I mean, there are certain times when flattening seems like a "natural" thing to do.  But is that because of my experience with P5?  I dunno.
20:08 PerlJam Also, it occurs to me that flattening may have been a "root cause" for the issues with lists, but I don't know if that's true.
20:09 dalek rakudo/nom: 293bb50 | jnthn++ | src/core/Any.pm:
20:09 dalek rakudo/nom: Corret item @a, item %h, item (1,2,3).
20:09 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/293bb50e07
20:10 jnthn dwarring: ^^ - if you could write it a test, that'd be awesome.
20:10 muraiki I'm a newbie to perl, but is flattening when something like (1, 2, (3, 4), 5) becomes (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) ?
20:10 colomon muraiki: yes
20:10 vendethiel muraiki: yes
20:10 vendethiel except when it's not.
20:10 muraiki heh
20:10 dwarring jnthn: awesome! will do
20:11 muraiki coming to perl from python and clojure, I found that flattening resulted in requiring quite a bit more cognitive overhead when making nested data structures, because I now had to also think about references and using the right sigils and {} / []
20:12 muraiki sorry if I don't have all the terms right
20:13 muraiki now that I've been using perl professionally for two months, I'm usually ok... but it was hard as a learner
20:13 cognominal joined #perl6
20:14 vendethiel muraiki: are you using p6 professionally :P ?
20:14 muraiki oh, no, haha
20:14 muraiki I haven't actually used perl 6, but I've read a bit about it
20:14 * vendethiel is
20:14 muraiki I meant perl 5 :)
20:14 vendethiel muraiki: we have even more cookies :D
20:14 muraiki yeah, someday when I have enough free time I'm going to start playing with p6
20:15 * vendethiel learned perl 6 while commuting
20:15 muraiki coming from a bit of a functional background, I see some really neat things in perl 6
20:15 PerlJam muraiki: such as?  :)
20:15 vendethiel (I guess "clojure" is the functional background part ?)
20:15 muraiki yeah, although it's not fully pure
20:16 muraiki well pretty much everything in the "why perl 6" slides that were on here a week or two ago made me go "awesome!"
20:16 moritz most functional languages aren't fully pure
20:16 * vendethiel has had the same languages
20:16 vendethiel moritz: most function languages are wrongly called "functional", tbh.
20:17 muraiki yeah, that's why I used that term with reservation
20:17 dalek rakudo/nom: 87333c9 | jnthn++ | docs/ChangeLog:
20:17 dalek rakudo/nom: Various ChangeLog additions.
20:17 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/87333c9494
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20:21 brrt i'm bragging, of course, but https://github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/commit/216724387c can be jitted completely
20:21 brrt i.e.
20:21 PerlJam vendethiel: I've thought that's because people treat "functional" as more nouny than adjectivey.   i.e. "It's a truck" more than "It's blue"  (as if all "functional langauges" were the same rather than recognizing that there are differences and gradients)
20:21 brrt we have fibonacci
20:22 timotimo brrt: sweet!
20:23 jnthn brrt++
20:23 brrt i think so
20:23 brrt you don't have it from me, but labels / branching where much simpler than i had expected
20:23 FROGGS brrt: does that really work already?
20:23 brrt yes
20:24 brrt please be my guest, try it out
20:24 Ulti brrt++
20:25 brrt must say, if anything involved is even slightly object-like, it won't work :-)
20:25 vendethiel brrt++ # HELL YEA.
20:25 dalek doc/redesign: e61284a | Mouq++ | / (2 files):
20:25 dalek doc/redesign: Write Type pages for types defined in lang docs, and check for methods
20:25 dalek doc/redesign:
20:25 dalek doc/redesign: Type definitions can now be integrated within language documentation,
20:25 dalek doc/redesign: just as routine definitions could already.
20:25 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/e61284aa2b
20:25 vendethiel PerlJam: I just mean that people saying JS is a functional or something are spouting nonsense
20:25 japhb brrt++
20:26 brrt for object stuff to really work, i'll need to work on return-value-management, and thats.... not so much tricky, as a bit of dividing responsibilities
20:26 japhb masak, re: bless, that was Perl 5-design-era.  I don't know the exact details.
20:26 Mouq brrt++
20:27 brrt thanks, my bragging worked :-D
20:28 btyler brrt: what lib should be installed for lua to be able to find 'bit'? haven't done much lua outside of a game engine
20:28 masak muraiki: you stated quite well what I meant by the feature not "carrying its own weight". thank you.
20:28 btyler http://bitop.luajit.org/download.html seems a likely candidate
20:28 masak in most languages, flattening is opt-in. in Perls 5 and 6, it's opt-out.
20:28 brrt btyler, yes, that is the right lib
20:28 [Coke] (subtests) oh, shit. anything with subtests is probably borked count wise in niecza now. :(
20:29 [Coke] (and pugs)
20:29 masak which overall surprises people, and adds a cognitive burden when learning it.
20:29 brrt you shouldn't /have/ to install that to build, though
20:29 * [Coke] gives up fudging them.
20:29 brrt oh, and for anyone who wants to test, pass the flag --enable-jit :-)
20:29 vendethiel masak: really, I can see outside of what I learned, and I find it harder to reason about
20:29 brrt (to Configure.pl, that is)
20:30 btyler brrt: hm, ok. well, clang barfs on jit/stub.c
20:30 brrt hmm
20:30 brrt it may well
20:30 brrt i'll fix that
20:30 Woodi joined #perl6
20:30 btyler I'll gist it
20:30 brrt anyway, if its compiling stub.c,that means Configure thought you don't want jit :-)
20:30 brrt i.e.
20:30 btyler oh
20:30 brrt you can build jit without lua
20:31 brrt because i've checked in the preprocessed files
20:31 brrt (as per jnthn++
20:31 brrt 's good advice)
20:32 btyler ah, ok, found --enable-jit in Configure.pl, sounds promising :)
20:33 dalek roast: b8a32f5 | rurban++ | S (2 files):
20:33 dalek roast: More Parrot-fudge tests that rely on $*EXECUTABLE_NAME
20:33 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/b8a32f5f1c
20:34 brrt to see the log somewhere, set MVM_JIT_LOG to a non-null value; to see the bytecode, set MVM_JIT_BYTECODE_DIR to some value
20:34 hoverboard joined #perl6
20:34 btyler brrt: hm, even with --enable-jit clang is still choking on stub.c:20
20:35 brrt what platform are you on?
20:35 muraiki masak: yeah, if you consider flattening a mutation of the data structure you've provided, then it's kind of weird to have a mutation that occurs most of the time but not always. I imagine that flattening made something easier in Perl 1.0 back in the day, but perhaps it's not the best feature to retain :)
20:35 btyler osx 10.9.3
20:35 segomos_ jnthn: if i run the requests without concurrency (eg i'm waiting for one request to completely close before handling another), i'm still segfaulting after a random number of requests
20:35 btyler mid 2010 mbp, i7
20:36 masak muraiki: it did.
20:36 masak muraiki: it's a wonderful "interface" between arrays and hashes, for example.
20:36 masak muraiki: you just "pour" one into the other and the intermediate list form makes it all just "fit".
20:36 FROGGS joined #perl6
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20:36 muraiki ah yes, I see
20:37 dalek roast: 4f04da7 | rurban++ | / (2 files):
20:37 dalek roast: Fudge parrot NEXT phasers
20:37 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/4f04da7953
20:37 brrt hmmm
20:37 masak but that benefit has to be weighed against nested data structures, as you pointed out.
20:37 jnthn segomos_: OK. I'll have to see where it's doing that...
20:37 PerlJam masak: it was also useful when you needed to pass args to subroutines (at least at first it was useful :)
20:37 vendethiel masak: are you coming to YAPC::EU ?
20:37 segomos_ jnthn: how are you stepping through this?
20:37 masak vendethiel: with less than 50% certainty.
20:37 masak vendethiel: I will submit talks, and then hope for the best.
20:37 vendethiel masak: I have far less :P
20:37 segomos_ i'd be more helpful if i knew, i think
20:37 brrt it is probably that Configure.pl tries to recognise your platform $Config{archname}, and doesn't like it
20:38 jnthn segomos_: Debug build of MoarVM, then VS debugger
20:38 vendethiel masak: I have to submit talk and maybe I'll get there if it's accepted :P
20:38 * jnthn needs ot submit YAPC::EU talks
20:38 jnthn But I don't actually know what to talk about yet :)
20:38 segomos_ HTTP::Server::Async probably
20:38 segomos_ :p
20:38 jnthn hehe
20:39 masak jnthn: talk about category theory! :P
20:39 * masak is coserious
20:39 * jnthn is a co-expert in it :P
20:40 masak that's like an expert, but with the arrows reversed?
20:40 PerlJam jnthn: talk about how this Perl 6 thing is coming together and there's not much left for you to do  ;-)
20:40 erdic joined #perl6
20:40 masak jnthn: talk about MoarVM.
20:40 jnthn Yeah. The arrow of learning points to me figuring out how little I know about the topic, rather than to the audience :P
20:41 brrt btyler: can you run this? perl -MConfig -e 'print $Config{archname}."\n";'
20:41 vendethiel jnthn: but are you a generalized expert ?
20:41 masak jnthn: what the heck kind of arrow points between you and the audience!?
20:41 jnthn And at the end, I applaud the audience for enduring the session.
20:41 masak :P
20:41 btyler brrt; darwin-2level
20:41 vendethiel masak: "Jnthn - the good parts"
20:41 masak :P
20:41 brrt is that all?
20:41 brrt oei
20:41 jnthn That'd be a short talk :P
20:41 brrt no more?
20:41 * masak .oO( thank you for coming to this cotalk. would you please coend it now? )
20:42 btyler brrt: that's it, yeah. same for all recent macs I imagine
20:42 vendethiel masak: make the beginning a comonad and the end a monad ! No way to enter or to exit safely !
20:43 btyler brrt: successful compile with --enable-jit and adding darwin-2level to the archname match in configure.pl
20:43 [Coke] jnthn: if it were about lizmat, would it be a tall order?
20:43 masak vendethiel: haha
20:43 btyler I see a lot of "OH HAI" :)
20:43 brrt ok, i'll add that to the Configure.pl - or if you have a commit bit, feel free to commit youself :-)
20:44 brrt no, thats the wrong script i think
20:44 masak vendethiel: <jnthn> you can try that door over there, but the door is not part of any public interface!
20:44 masak vendethiel: <audience> *gasp*!
20:44 vendethiel masak: you must mean TRY.
20:45 vendethiel EVAL*, even.
20:45 masak yeah.
20:45 * vendethiel now imagines jnthn screaming EVAL to the top of his lungs
20:45 * vendethiel ... in the middle of a sentence explaining where to exit safely
20:45 masak jnthn screams a lot since he started using VS 2012.
20:45 btyler brrt: oh, yep, my moar-jit was a little out of date
20:45 vendethiel Why would he do that, though ?
20:45 brrt :-)
20:45 brrt i'l add the line, then
20:46 dalek roast: 26c1a2b | rurban++ | S0 (2 files):
20:46 dalek roast: Fudge more parrot TODOs
20:46 dalek roast:
20:46 dalek roast: S06-signature/unpack-array.t: [...] does not lose containerization
20:46 dalek roast: S04-declarations/will.t: all for blocks set variable
20:46 masak vendethiel: because the menus are all FILE EDIT VIEW ...
20:46 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/26c1a2b97c
20:46 vendethiel masak: would be better with $ % ! &
20:46 [Sno] joined #perl6
20:47 jnthn haha...yeah, I remember the first talk I did with VS 2012
20:47 jnthn Early in a morning, audience still not entirely awake yet
20:48 jnthn "So, we go to do ***DEBUG*** menu..." :D
20:48 cognominal joined #perl6
20:48 jnthn That woke everyone up :)
20:48 PerlJam someone should to a tag-team talk with TheDamian
20:49 segomos_ that sounds like a rap
20:52 PerlJam I dunno ... it could be like this:  TheDamian: let me tell you about some thing absolutely amazing if it existed.   jnthn: oh, and by the way, here it is!   (or vice versa)
20:52 timotimo :D
20:52 timotimo that's so you two
20:52 brrt btyler - i've added the line and some documentation
20:53 PerlJam and if there were several amazing things the whole talk could crescendo until everyone's brain explodes  ... ;)
20:53 brrt btyler++ for finding the right option
20:53 segomos_ how do i undefine in p6?
20:54 jnthn m: my $a = 42; undefine $a; say $a
20:54 camelia rakudo-moar 0bea66: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
20:54 FROGGS hehe
20:54 timotimo oh, we really have that?
20:54 timotimo but then $a still exists!
20:54 FROGGS I love these answers :o)
20:54 segomos_ i kept trying undef >.<
20:54 PerlJam he didn't ask how to obliterate $a
20:54 PerlJam segomos_: why do you want to undefine something anyway?
20:55 cognominal Perl 6 waits forever that I decide to close my =begin pod. I can construe that as some form of string layziness.
20:55 segomos_ trying to figure out if i have a promise somewhere that is causing the segfault in moar
20:55 btyler brrt: that is one speedy fib :)
20:55 brrt you have i7
20:55 brrt i'd be scared if fib wasn't fast
20:55 cognominal I may some day append to the file.
20:55 brrt :-)
20:56 erdic joined #perl6
20:57 lizmat joined #perl6
20:57 anaeem1 joined #perl6
20:58 PerlJam cognominal: yeah, but doesn't that mean that it never gets to runtime, but hangs around waiting to compile more code?
20:59 cognominal too bad.
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21:05 segomos_ the moar tests, as long as moar doesn't segfault, are serving 100% of requests within 20ms on my machine
21:06 vendethiel (that's still a bit too much for a real-world use case, but it's a good sign it works !)
21:06 segomos_ the jvm version is more like 130ms :
21:06 Mouq segomos_++
21:08 segomos_ with brand new jvm build i'm getting 50ms
21:09 timotimo at some point the moar jit will be cool enough to help even with such workloads :3
21:09 vendethiel segomos_: try to trigger 10k requests now :)
21:09 timotimo we can already do fibonacci! :)
21:09 segomos_ single requests produces this: https://gist.github.com/to​ny-o/83c3d10fefbf50d0b0cd
21:10 segomos_ lol 10k errors out with 'too many files open' on the apache bench side
21:11 Mouq "99% served within 25ms"
21:11 segomos_ pretty good on the jvm, with 1 request at a time
21:12 segomos_ btyler: what were you using ? wrk?
21:12 btyler segomos_: yeah, wrk. multiple concurrent conns seems to hang it, using one conn and one thread gets it around 50 requests before moar segvs
21:13 segomos_ i've got moar more stable but it does segfault after a seemingly random number of requests (sometimes it's 12, other times it's 4x, and some other times it will serve 100 some requests)
21:14 segomos_ jnthn got me on the right path with leaving promises open
21:14 btyler the jvm JIT is really fun to watch in action. the first 150 requests are dog slow, then things start to pick up rapidly
21:16 lizmat jnthn: regarding undefine(): I got the impression from TimToady++ that he was not sure whether that should live
21:16 btyler segomos_: https://gist.github.com/kanat​ohodets/f534ac3a4c18d250f7b5
21:16 lizmat generically, undefining something (which is bringing it back to the original state), is done by assigning Nil
21:16 btyler with a warm-ish JVM JIT
21:16 vendethiel ^ agreed
21:16 lizmat m: my $a = 42; say $a; $a = Nil; say $a
21:16 camelia rakudo-moar 0bea66: OUTPUT«42␤(Any)␤»
21:17 lizmat m: my $a is default(42); say $a; $a = Nil; say $a
21:17 camelia rakudo-moar 0bea66: OUTPUT«42␤42␤»
21:17 segomos_ btyler: nice
21:17 lizmat m: my $a is default(42)= 86; say $a; $a = Nil; say $a
21:17 camelia rakudo-moar 0bea66: OUTPUT«86␤42␤»
21:17 btyler segomos_: next up: multiple concurrent conns, yeah? :)
21:17 segomos_ m: my $a is default(42)= 86; $a.say; undefine $a; say $a;
21:17 camelia rakudo-moar 0bea66: OUTPUT«86␤42␤»
21:18 dalek doc/redesign: f6fdcdd | Mouq++ | / (6 files):
21:18 dalek doc/redesign: Introduce Sets_Bags_and_Mixes.pod
21:18 dalek doc/redesign:
21:18 dalek doc/redesign: This includes the definitions of Set, Bag, and Mix, as well as the
21:18 dalek doc/redesign: Set/Bag operators. The pages for Set, Bag and Mix are automatically
21:18 dalek doc/redesign: generated from the documentation
21:18 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f6fdcddf59
21:18 segomos_ btyler: hell yea, they should work right now with p6-j, just not working so well on moar
21:18 btyler hm, ok
21:20 SevenWolf joined #perl6
21:20 segomos_ btyler: -c 5 == https://gist.github.com/to​ny-o/1e5d3b5461c7a69420db
21:20 segomos_ that's against a fresh jvm
21:21 btyler segomos_: tried it with default wrk settings? I keep hanging or running into an exception on r-j doing that
21:22 hoelzro I noticed that perl6-m supports $*PROGRAM_NAME, but the specs indicate $*PROGRAM - which one is right?
21:22 segomos_ m: $*PROGRAM_NAME.say; $*PROGRAM.say;
21:22 camelia rakudo-moar 0bea66: OUTPUT«/tmp/nlaPhzCURZ␤===SORRY!===␤Dynamic variable $*PROGRAM not found␤»
21:23 segomos_ m: $*PROGRAM_NAME.say;;
21:23 camelia rakudo-moar 0bea66: OUTPUT«/tmp/oZ5Rlc2co2␤»
21:23 segomos_ r: $*PROGRAM_NAME.say;;
21:23 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 0bea66: OUTPUT«/tmp/tmpfile␤»
21:24 hoelzro roast seems to support $*PROGRAM_NAME as well
21:24 btyler segomos_: -t 1 and -c 5 work reliably for me, but -t 2 and -c 10 reliably hangs. not sure what's up yet
21:24 hoelzro but according to git blame, $*PROGRAM_NAME became $*PROGRAM in november of last year
21:25 FROGGS hoelzro: wasn't that $*EXECUTABLE and $*EXECUTABLE_NAME?
21:25 hoelzro it's both, I think
21:25 hoelzro hang on
21:25 FROGGS but I'd favor the short name fwiw
21:25 segomos_ btyler: checking it out right now
21:25 colomon joined #perl6
21:25 hoelzro https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/6cdd9f3
21:25 hoelzro FROGGS: ^
21:26 segomos_ btyler: are you getting Illegal State Exception from jvm?
21:26 hoelzro I favor it as well (esp. considering it's an IO::Path rather than a Str), but I was confused about the status of $*PROGRAM in rakudo
21:26 hoelzro as well as roast
21:26 FROGGS hoelzro: ahh, hmmm
21:27 FROGGS $*PROGRAM should be easy to implement though
21:27 denis_boyun_ joined #perl6
21:27 hoelzro I've added it to my growing TODO list =P
21:28 FROGGS *g*
21:28 btyler segomos_: I've seen a few crashes, but they're lost beyond scrollback atm, trying to reproduce
21:29 jnthn segomos_, btyler: I won't have time needed to debug the Moar issues here in the next few days, but will get to it next week. I suspect that reducing the GC nursery size will quickly show if it's GC related or not, but just seeing where it SEGVs can help
21:31 btyler jnthn: no rush :) looking forward to seeing how r-m handles the wrk barrage
21:31 _thou joined #perl6
21:32 donaldh joined #perl6
21:38 lizmat FROGGS: so, $*PROGRAM should be the same as $*PROGRAM_NAME ?
21:38 lizmat and $*PROGRAM_NAME should be deprecated ?
21:38 FROGGS yes
21:40 hoelzro you going to steal the low-hanging fruit away from me, lizmat? =P
21:40 lizmat nononono
21:40 lizmat please take it !
21:40 dalek roast: cf1c647 | (David Warring david.warring@gmail.com)++ | S03-operators/context.t:
21:40 dalek roast: test: item @arr; item %hash
21:40 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/cf1c647253
21:41 hoelzro we'll see if I get around to it!
21:41 hoelzro it doesn't look too hard
21:41 lizmat I seem to recall you have enough tuits already  :-)
21:41 hoelzro my only concern (atm) is if the program is found on $PATH
21:41 hoelzro heh
21:41 hoelzro these days, I'm pretty low
21:42 hoelzro then again, with a shebang, perl6 should receive the full path to the script on its command line, right?
21:42 hoelzro so it should be fine, I thinjk
21:42 hoelzro *think
21:42 FROGGS look at how $*EXECUTABLE works on jvm and moar
21:43 segomos_ btyler: i'm seeing the problem, i'll work on that.  meanwhile i have timotimo's suggestion of making the registered callbacks fire when the headers are complete
21:43 hoelzro is there a way to DEPRECATED a dynamic variable?
21:43 lizmat well, no
21:44 hoelzro I figured not
21:44 hoelzro well, that's ok
21:44 lizmat I faked it by making the dynamic variable of the Obsolete class
21:44 rurban joined #perl6
21:44 lizmat and depend on .gist and .Str doing the deprecation message
21:44 lizmat but that doesn't work anymore with the last say optimization
21:45 ChoHag How do you tell perl to continue after handling an exception in a CATCH block?
21:45 lizmat which doesn't call .gist on single Str arguments anymore
21:45 lizmat ChoHag: add a default block
21:45 ChoHag I have a default block.
21:45 lizmat S04:1033
21:45 synopsebot Link: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S04.html#line_1033
21:45 btyler segomos_: awesome, can't wait to see how it turns out
21:46 hoelzro hmm
21:46 hoelzro what should $*PROGRAM be if it's the perl6 REPL?
21:46 segomos_ ChoHag: do you mean similar to vb's resume next ?
21:46 hoelzro $*PROGRAM_NAME is 'interactive'
21:46 lizmat I'm now trying to fix with a separate candidate for Obsolete, but that's not working out for some reason
21:46 lizmat m; $*OS.say
21:46 ChoHag Doesn't that just quell them entirely?
21:47 lizmat m: $*OS.say
21:47 camelia rakudo-moar 87333c: OUTPUT«linux␤»
21:47 ChoHag No, I want to resume execution at the bottom of the CATCH block.
21:47 ChoHag Not just carry on regardless.
21:47 segomos_ it does that already
21:47 segomos_ m: try { 'hi'.say; die "dead"; CATCH { default { 'caught'.say; } }; }; '/try'.say;
21:47 camelia rakudo-moar 87333c: OUTPUT«hi␤caught␤/try␤»
21:47 lizmat actually, no: if you ignore the exception, it will continue with the line *after* the line causing the exception
21:47 lizmat afaik
21:48 segomos_ m: try { 'try'.say; die "dead"; 'after life'.say CATCH { default { 'caught'.say; } }; }; '/try'.say;
21:48 camelia rakudo-moar 87333c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/JuenfUKe2sâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/JuenfUKe2s:1â�¤------> [32m'try'.say; die "dead"; 'after life'.say [33mâ��[31mCATCH { default { 'caught'.say; } }; }; [0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤    â€¦Â»
21:48 FROGGS p: try { die "ohh"; say "well"; CATCH { default { .resume } } };
21:48 camelia rakudo-parrot 87333c: OUTPUT«well␤»
21:48 segomos_ m: try { 'try'.say; die "dead"; 'after life'.say; CATCH { default { 'caught'.say; } }; }; '/try'.say;
21:48 camelia rakudo-moar 87333c: OUTPUT«try␤caught␤/try␤»
21:48 FROGGS m: try { die "ohh"; say "well"; CATCH { default { .resume } } }; # broken on moar sadly
21:48 camelia rakudo-moar 87333c: OUTPUT«This representation (VMException) does not support associative access␤  in method resume at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:11405␤  in block  at /tmp/aYEM6TEzWA:1␤  in block  at /tmp/aYEM6TEzWA:1␤␤»
21:49 FROGGS but the parrot line shows that .resume is the right thing
21:49 jnthn FROGGS: Moar knows how to do it, though...
21:49 ChoHag How does the automatic application of a try block affect the leaving of a CATCH?
21:49 segomos_ he wants it to resume at the bottom of the CATCH block
21:49 FROGGS yeah, will look at the resume method in rakudo in a bit
21:49 ChoHag segomos_: I don't really mind where, as long as resumption occcurs.
21:50 segomos_ btyler: weird, the connection.send promise is planned but never kept/broken
21:50 TimToady what does "at the bottom of the CATCH block" mean?  the position of a CATCH block is meaningless
21:51 ChoHag I have a default handler with just say in it, then no further says are said, regardless of where I've spewed them.
21:51 segomos_ example?
21:51 TimToady the CATCH block is not anywhere in the normal sequence of execution, in other words
21:52 TimToady it's a "come from"
21:52 ChoHag perl 6 has comefrom?
21:52 TimToady well, COME FROM if yer talking INTERCAL
21:52 ChoHag Oh dear.
21:52 TimToady well, it's a slightly more controlled form :)
21:54 dalek rakudo/nom: 72b1705 | jnthn++ | src/core/Exception.pm:
21:54 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix .resume on MoarVM (and hopefully JVM).
21:54 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/72b1705b7f
21:54 jnthn FROGGS: ^^, but I suspect it wnats a test :)
21:54 TimToady that's why we give phasers uppercase names, to indicate they're not part of the normal execution, but get invoked at odd times
21:55 btyler segomos_: with -t > 1?
21:55 FROGGS p: say Exception.new.resumable
21:55 camelia rakudo-parrot 87333c: OUTPUT«This type does not support associative operations␤  in method resumable at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:11332␤  in block  at /tmp/_3fZGrkXoR:1␤␤»
21:55 FROGGS m: say Exception.new.resumable
21:55 camelia rakudo-moar 87333c: OUTPUT«This type does not support associative operations␤  in method resumable at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:11401␤  in block  at /tmp/l9x6Ahy1oN:1␤␤»
21:55 FROGGS j: say Exception.new.resumable
21:55 jnthn FROGGS: The resumable thing wants a look still
21:55 segomos_ jnthn: any idea why the async connection.send would be planned but never executed?
21:55 jnthn FROGGS: But .resume should now rok.
21:55 camelia rakudo-jvm 87333c: OUTPUT«java.lang.RuntimeException: This type does not support associative operations␤  in method resumable at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:11342␤  in block  at /tmp/B5aYYwpzO0:1␤␤»
21:56 TimToady note, for instance, that when CATCH is called, you might actually be executing a statement in an entirely different routine
21:56 segomos_ btyler: yea, with the default wrk settings
21:56 jnthn segomos_: No, the code in CORE.setting looks OK
21:57 jnthn segomos_: Does the data actually get written?
21:57 segomos_ no the promise is just hung in a planned state
21:58 TimToady ChoHag: so, if you really wanted to go to the statement after the CATCH, you probably need to put a label there and goto it...but I don't recommend that
21:58 jnthn Hmm, that'd suggest the actual writing never really takes place...
21:58 ChoHag No I was mixed up.
21:59 TimToady much better to just exit the block containing the CATCH normally
21:59 segomos_ i'll look at it with telnet, one sec
21:59 TimToady okay
21:59 ChoHag I should have been paying attention to try blocks, not CATCH blocks.
21:59 lizmat FROGGS: if I git pull and run Configure.pl for parrot, should it then get 6.5.0 or not?
21:59 FROGGS lizmat: only if you pass --gen-parrot, and in case NQP_REVISION was bumped
22:00 lizmat I guess we haven't bumped that yet, right?
22:00 TimToady m: say "one"; { say "two"; CATCH { default {} }; die "oops" }; say "three"
22:00 camelia rakudo-moar 87333c: OUTPUT«one␤two␤three␤»
22:00 FROGGS lizmat: I guess not
22:00 TimToady ^^^ illustration of what I mean, to those playing along at home
22:01 TimToady don't really need a goto to get to the 'say "three"'
22:02 FROGGS n: try { die "ohh"; say "well"; CATCH { default { .resume } } }
22:02 camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: ( no output )
22:02 dalek rakudo/nom: de3cecc | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (3 files):
22:02 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix deprecations of $*OS/$*OSVER
22:02 dalek rakudo/nom:
22:02 dalek rakudo/nom: Basically:
22:02 dalek rakudo/nom: - expose Obsolete as a proper class
22:02 dalek rakudo/nom: - make sure there are 'say' candidates for Obsolete:D: that do .gist
22:02 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/de3cecc6da
22:03 Mouq lizmat: Re: Deprecations and the say optimization: couldn't you... oh, you just did it :)
22:03 Mouq lizmat++
22:03 psch jnthn: can you help me make sense of this? https://gist.github.com/pe​schwa/863b4d839e0024388052
22:04 TimToady r: try { die "ohh"; say "well"; CATCH { default { .resume } } }
22:04 dalek roast: 1e909c2 | (David Warring david.warring@gmail.com)++ | integration/advent2011-day16.t:
22:04 dalek roast: adding 2011 adventy day 16
22:04 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/1e909c22d3
22:04 camelia rakudo-moar 87333c: OUTPUT«This representation (VMException) does not support associative access␤  in method resume at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:11405␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
22:04 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 87333c: OUTPUT«well␤»
22:04 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 87333c: OUTPUT«VMException representation does not implement at_key_boxed␤  in method resume at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:11346␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
22:04 TimToady oh, you just fixed that (hopefully)
22:05 jnthn psch: Not really, especially as with exact same Moar version here it's fine :s
22:06 dalek roast: 09ecc5e | (Tobias Leich)++ | S04-statements/try.t:
22:06 dalek roast: add test for Exception.resume in CATCH
22:06 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/09ecc5e87a
22:06 lizmat testing NQP_REVISION bump on parrot now
22:06 psch that's slightly terrifying; i guess i'll have to understand more of moar
22:06 FROGGS jnthn: works on all backends^^
22:06 jnthn FROGGS: \o/
22:06 jnthn psch: Yeah, hard for me to know why it'd not work elsewhere
22:06 jnthn psch: Maybe a run with ASAN or Valgrind will show something.
22:07 jnthn 'night, #perl6
22:08 segomos_ night
22:08 lizmat gnight jnthn
22:08 psch i'll look at valgrind tomorrow then i guess
22:08 psch night jnthn++ & #perl
22:08 FROGGS gnight jnthn
22:08 FROGGS gnight psch
22:08 psch s/$/6/
22:08 segomos_ m: ('jnthn' & 'perl6').say
22:08 camelia rakudo-moar 87333c: OUTPUT«all(jnthn, perl6)␤»
22:09 segomos_ guessing that & doesn't do the bit comparison i thought
22:10 FROGGS +& would be for numeric stuff
22:10 FROGGS and ~& for string
22:11 masak m: say (0b11001100 +& 0b01100110).fmt("%b")
22:11 camelia rakudo-moar 87333c: OUTPUT«1000100␤»
22:11 lue although ~& really should just be for Bufs :P
22:11 lizmat m: say 4 +& 7
22:11 camelia rakudo-moar 87333c: OUTPUT«4␤»
22:11 lizmat m: say 4 +| 7
22:11 camelia rakudo-moar 87333c: OUTPUT«7␤»
22:11 masak segomos_: +& does bit comparison.
22:14 masak 'night, #perl6
22:14 lizmat night masak
22:15 brrt 'night, #perl6
22:15 brrt left #perl6
22:18 _thou joined #perl6
22:21 timotimo NtaiveCall is *still* giving deprecation messages in the tests
22:21 FROGGS yes
22:25 dalek rakudo/nom: 5aa3c3a | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | t/spectest.data:
22:25 dalek rakudo/nom: Add advent2011-day16 tests
22:25 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5aa3c3a0af
22:29 dalek rakudo/nom: 0c861ba | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
22:29 dalek rakudo/nom: Bump NQP_REVISION to get parrot 6.5.0 (rurban++)
22:29 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0c861ba039
22:30 colomon joined #perl6
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22:48 colomon joined #perl6
22:58 Mouq How do you disable optimizations in moar?
22:58 woolfy joined #perl6
22:58 Mouq It's giving me a huge WTF
22:59 skids joined #perl6
23:01 Mouq It seems to be making "given $var { ... }" so that $var can chage outside of the given, but doesn't always change inside of it...
23:01 Mouq *change
23:01 Mouq I'll re make everything and see if the problem persists
23:02 FROGGS MVM_SPESH_DISABLE=1 perl6-m ...
23:02 FROGGS and: perl6-m --optimize=off ...
23:02 Mouq FROGGS: Thanks :)
23:02 FROGGS good luck :o)
23:05 Mouq .oO( You know you need to optimize your script if Rakudo's build time is refreshing... )
23:06 xenoterracide joined #perl6
23:06 Mouq ( Though the change I'm working on should bring it down about 2.5 minutes if I can get it too work again without the bugs... )
23:08 Mouq s/too/to
23:08 FROGGS is that about rendering the docs?
23:09 Mouq Yeah, takes about 7 minutes on the redesign branch atm
23:10 FROGGS :/
23:11 Mouq I've been seperating out various parts of the process though, which increases the total run time but should make it easier to cache things between runs
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23:24 denis_boyun_ joined #perl6
23:30 Mouq Uggghhh. So, it's a recursive sub with `my sub`s inside of it, and whether or not it should've worked by spec, I got it to work by making all the important variables dynamic
23:30 FROGGS ewww
23:31 Mouq Maybe I'll golf it later, my head hurts too much though right now
23:33 Mouq Looks like I fixed the original bug I was trying to hunt down with that code, at least :)
23:34 FROGGS well, that is something :o)
23:36 * lizmat needs some sleep&
23:39 Mouq night lizmat
23:41 dalek doc/redesign: 877d74b | Mouq++ | / (2 files):
23:41 dalek doc/redesign: Rewrite find-definition correctly
23:41 dalek doc/redesign: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/877d74bc55
23:45 guru joined #perl6
23:45 Alina-malina joined #perl6
23:46 * timotimo is building 3xrakudo and 3xnqp for an up to date benchmark run to present in his slides on friday
23:47 timotimo sadly, that will not have CGOTO=1 in the moars, though i think i can retrospectively put that in
23:47 timotimo someone buildsystem-savvy could put detection into the configure script or makefile to turn CGOTO=1 on if we have a compiler that supports it ...
23:48 dalek rakudo/nom: b430911 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/core/Exception.pm:
23:48 dalek rakudo/nom: fix exception printing by boxing line number
23:48 dalek rakudo/nom:
23:48 dalek rakudo/nom: A BOOTInt sneaked into it before, so the exeption exploded at the
23:48 dalek rakudo/nom: attempt of being printed, like when we 'use'd a module that had a
23:48 dalek rakudo/nom: syntax error in it.
23:48 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b4309113e8
23:48 timotimo oh wow, nice catch!
23:48 rindolf joined #perl6
23:48 FROGGS timotimo: well, the error was quite disturbing :o)
23:49 FROGGS gnight
23:51 dalek roast/hoelzro/special-var-program: 8ed8c3b | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S (4 files):
23:51 dalek roast/hoelzro/special-var-program: Use $*PROGRAM instead of $*PROGRAM_NAME
23:51 dalek roast/hoelzro/special-var-program:
23:51 dalek roast/hoelzro/special-var-program: Bring roast up to speed with S28
23:51 dalek roast/hoelzro/special-var-program:
23:51 dalek roast/hoelzro/special-var-program: The following files still need to be updated, but it's out of my level
23:51 dalek roast/hoelzro/special-var-program: of expertise:
23:51 dalek roast/hoelzro/special-var-program:
23:51 dalek roast/hoelzro/special-var-program: S02-names/pseudo.t
23:51 dalek roast/hoelzro/special-var-program: S02-magicals/progname.t
23:51 dalek roast/hoelzro/special-var-program: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/8ed8c3b9c6

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