Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-06-23

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:18 * [Coke] waves from... Iowa
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00:38 colomon Writing lib/Math/ThreeD/Vec3.pm...done
00:38 colomon Writing lib/Math/ThreeD/Mat44.pm...Segmentation fault (core dumped)
00:38 colomon (that's in a parrakudo smoke)
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02:18 lucas Hello, I made a little toy to help me run my implementations:
02:18 lucas https://gist.github.com/lucasbuchala/a12a00824e9920fc4369
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02:58 dalek perl6-bench: 8dc1c34 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | minibenchmarks.pl:
02:58 dalek perl6-bench: Reduce initial SCALE for rc-self-describing-numbers
02:58 dalek perl6-bench:
02:58 dalek perl6-bench: Rakudo handles this benchmark so slowly that this one test was
02:58 dalek perl6-bench: easily dominating testing time.
02:58 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/8dc1c3463a
02:58 dalek perl6-bench: 8b08ec7 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | / (4 files):
02:58 dalek perl6-bench: Add rc-dragon-curve minibenchmark
02:58 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/8b08ec7a71
02:58 dalek perl6-bench: 6547ae8 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | / (4 files):
02:58 dalek perl6-bench: Add rc-9-billion-names minibenchmark
02:58 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/6547ae8575
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04:52 dalek Net--IRC: fb2cb3f | (Jarrod Funnell)++ | lib/Net/IRC/ (6 files):
04:52 dalek Net--IRC: Merge the fixes from my commandhandler branch
04:52 dalek Net--IRC: review: https://github.com/TiMBuS/Net--IRC/commit/fb2cb3fb30
04:52 dalek Net--IRC/new-handler: c24efc1 | (Jarrod Funnell)++ | lib/Net/IRC/ (3 files):
04:52 dalek Net--IRC/new-handler: Add events for quit/part. Clean up  defaulthandler's user tracking
04:52 dalek Net--IRC/new-handler: review: https://github.com/TiMBuS/Net--IRC/commit/c24efc13cd
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05:16 atroxaper Good morning, #perl6 !
05:20 donaldh o/ atroxaper
05:20 atroxaper donaldh: o/
05:24 atroxaper I heed to use some string-template system. I mean 'Insert to string value by <%= key %>'. I think I can use some regex to find <%= ... %>. But how can I find all that pieces?
05:25 moritz atroxaper: how about using one of the several template engiens found on modules.perl6.org?
05:25 moritz or else, use a global match
05:26 moritz m:g/.../, or $str.match(:g, $regex)
05:27 atroxaper Yes! Global search. Thank you.
05:28 atroxaper I didn't think to find existent template system. But I'm going to look at them.
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05:46 atroxaper My panda didn't install module for Rakudo Parrot, but did for MoarVM and JVM?
05:48 atroxaper I have perl6 like perl6-m
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06:21 timotimo check that your $PATH is pointing at the correct perl6 perhaps?
06:21 timotimo and the correct panda binary as well; especially try head (which panda)
06:23 atroxaper $PATH is pointing to all perl6-* and perl6. perl6 -> perl6-m
06:26 timotimo and the hashbang of the panda command?
06:28 atroxaper #!/usr/bin/env perl6
06:28 timotimo can youexplain your problem a bit more?
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06:30 atroxaper I have installed Template::Mojo by panda install. And now if I write 'use Template::Mojo' and run per6-p I see that perl6 can't find that module. But perl6-m and -j works well.
06:30 timotimo er ... panda should install it for only one of your perl6s
06:31 atroxaper And how can I install it for another?
06:31 timotimo the best approach is probably using rakudobrew, you can "rakudobrew switch" very easily
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06:32 atroxaper Really? Where can I read about that?
06:32 timotimo hmm, good question; the repository with it is in tadzik/rakudobrew
06:33 atroxaper Yes. I found it. Reading ;)
06:34 timotimo we should quite possibly propagate information about rakudobrew closer to perl6.org and rakudo.org
06:35 atroxaper It would be great!
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07:13 moritz possibly a line on modules.perl6.org
07:13 moritz and rakudo.org, yes
07:13 moritz maybe also mention it in rakudo's README
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08:07 * tadzik blushes
08:08 FROGGS hi tadzik
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09:01 atroxaper I'he tried to install Rakudos with rakudobrew and I think it would be better to clone repositories with flag --depth, isn't it?
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09:02 FROGGS tadzik: that is for you --^
09:14 tadzik oh, maybe
09:15 tadzik I never saw a problem with not doing that
09:15 moritz it just downloads more stuff
09:16 moritz you just can't do much with a shallow clone (a bit better in newer git versions)
09:19 atroxaper tadzik: moritz: I just clone nqp three times :) And i thought that using --depth can allow to install all three backends faster in first time.
09:21 atroxaper And that change don't require lots modification in rakudobrew.
09:23 atroxaper tadzik: btw how can I uninstall panda? I have installed in by bootstrap. And now I install all by rakudobrew but panda runs from previous path.
09:24 tadzik atroxaper: oh, manually :/
09:24 tadzik remove .rakudobrew/<backend>/panda probably
09:25 atroxaper tadzik: no. Panda that I've installed by bootstrap.pl )
09:25 moritz atroxaper: maybe --reference <path-to-existing-repo> would be even faster
09:25 moritz git clone --reference <path> # that one
09:26 tadzik ah
09:26 tadzik atroxaper: well, it got installed to wherever your rakudo was, probably
09:26 tadzik 'which panda' will tell you
09:26 moritz it then obtains objects from the reference repo
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09:27 atroxaper moritz: yes! It would be best!
09:32 atroxaper tadzik: if I remove panda from that path (which panda) then '> panda' said that can't find panda) Maybe there is some system variable with path to perl6?
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09:33 mst WHY WAS I NOT ALREADY IN HERE
09:33 tadzik I don't know a thing about your system variables :)
09:33 * mst pokes his IRC config with a stick
09:33 tadzik poke it with a large trout
09:33 mst I already am a large trout, evidently that didn't help
09:34 tadzik troo
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09:36 atroxaper tadzik: oh... sorry. I commented a part of my PATH variable in bash_profile. But forget about " ". Thank you :)
09:38 tadzik :) You're welcome
09:38 FROGGS mst: you missed all the fun in here :o)
09:39 mst FROGGS: I owe Liz and Wendy some cpantesters work
09:39 FROGGS ohh, nice!
09:40 mst FROGGS: I did Rakudo::Star on CPAN, now it's time to do it again, properly
09:40 FROGGS that reminds me that I wanted to write/port CPAN::Report::Metabase::Mumble in the very near future
09:40 mst FROGGS: also, Wendy stranded me in Schiphol for twenty four hours so I believe she volunteered to play secretary in response; she'll find that out tomorrow :)
09:40 FROGGS *g*
09:41 FROGGS mst: so is that about smoking the rakudo installation process?
09:42 mst FROGGS: and also making it installable as a cpan module
09:42 FROGGS ohh, even nicer :o)
09:42 mst I did it with rakudo already
09:42 mst just nobody doing release management ever used my work
09:43 mst so this time, I redo it with instructions for stupid people
09:43 mst (yes, I'm being an asshole, I'm drunk and tired :)
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09:43 FROGGS :o)
09:44 FROGGS your accent compensates all that :o)
09:44 FROGGS (at least according to $wife)
09:46 FROGGS hmmm, there is stuff out there I didn't know: https://metacpan.org/source/MAGNOLIA/Enbld-0.7038/lib/Enbld/Definition/Rakudostar.pm
09:49 mst I had to remove the old Rakudo::Star because it turns out it had package statements in common with core perl and was breaking the indices ;)
09:55 FROGGS ewww
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10:27 atroxaper tadzik++ for rakudobrew
10:28 woolfy I stranded mst on schiphol for 24 hours?  I seem to be a very bad person...  In that case, I maybe should indeed play secretary for mst...
10:29 woolfy Of course I have no idea wht mst means. hen?  When? WHEN???
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10:30 dalek Net--IRC/new-handler: d413f30 | (Jarrod Funnell)++ | lib/Net/IRC/Event.pm:
10:30 dalek Net--IRC/new-handler: Whoops. s/ident/username/
10:30 dalek Net--IRC/new-handler: review: https://github.com/TiMBuS/Net--IRC/commit/d413f302f0
10:38 woolfy But he will tell me today, so I will be prepared to be ashamed.
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12:39 lucas__ Hello channel!
12:39 FROGGS hi lucas__
12:39 lucas__ I'm trying to get my head around type constraints. Can you help me determine if the following statment is false or true? "You can only use type constraints in my/state/has declarations and in routine signatures; You can't use it with our and constant declarations and pointy blocks parameters." Did I get it right or wrong?
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12:43 FROGGS m: -> Int $x { say $x }(42)
12:43 camelia rakudo-moar a7b4cb: OUTPUT«42␤»
12:43 FROGGS m: -> Int $x { say $x }("a")
12:43 camelia rakudo-moar a7b4cb: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding $x; expected 'Int' but got 'Str'␤  in block  at /tmp/P4VdNRTYAX:1␤␤»
12:43 FROGGS lucas__: so it works in pointies
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12:47 FROGGS m: constant Int x = 42;
12:47 camelia rakudo-moar a7b4cb: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/9R9w25wpCc�Missing initializer on constant declaration�at /tmp/9R9w25wpCc:1�------> [32mconstant Int [33m�[31mx = 42;[0m�    expecting any of:�        statement list�        prefix…»
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12:47 FROGGS okay, that makes sense
12:47 lucas__ FROGGS: it is good it work in pointy blocks :)
12:48 FROGGS "You can only use type constraints in my/state/has declarations and in routine signatures (including pointy blocks); You can't use it with our and constant declarations."
12:48 FROGGS lucas__: pointy blocks are almost identical to subroutines
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12:48 FROGGS the only difference is that a return falls through
12:48 lucas__ I was thinking more like "constant Int $x = 42;" But I agree it makes a strange sense to type a constant.
12:49 FROGGS m: constant $x = 42;
12:49 camelia rakudo-moar a7b4cb: ( no output )
12:49 FROGGS m: constant Int $x = 42;
12:49 camelia rakudo-moar a7b4cb: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/ZooPqXgHdm�Missing initializer on constant declaration�at /tmp/ZooPqXgHdm:1�------> [32mconstant Int [33m�[31m$x = 42;[0m�    expecting any of:�        statement list�        prefi…»
12:49 FROGGS it wants to parse a name (or variable), so a type that looks like a name confuses it
12:51 lucas__ yes, S03 says constants can't be used with signatures, because constant declarations already declare names in "type" space.
12:52 lucas__ I guess only "our" scoped variable remains...
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12:59 FROGGS timotimo: http://blog.yapcna.org/2014/06/23/yapc-is-streaming-live-on-youtube/
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13:12 psch hi #perl6
13:17 brrt hi psch
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13:20 psch hi brrt
13:20 brrt how is it? :-)
13:21 psch i'm poking at Actions.nqp to try and figure out how to make tr/// actually work
13:23 psch fwiu, in smart-match context tr/// has to set its lhs to the result of .trans with the tr/// arguments as par, but return the number of changed or deleted characters
13:23 psch so to compare the before and after i have to store the original lhs to the smart match somewhere; i think i have figured out how to do that now
13:24 brrt ok.. cool :-)
13:25 psch what are you up to?
13:39 brrt i'm working on a bug in moarvm
13:39 brrt basically, 'inline and jit doesn't work together very well yet'
13:40 brrt jnthn++ has already suggested the right solution
13:44 psch sounds a bit more involved than what i'm doing :)
13:45 brrt no, not really :-)
13:45 brrt just another language :-)
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13:45 psch i had had a look at something in moar recently, but got stuck in a spot where FROGGS got stuck as well; that combined with my lack of understand of moar and low confidence in my c knowledge made me put that aside
13:46 brrt what did you want to fix? maybe i can help out
13:46 psch that something was P6int without an explicit nativesize not having the right bitsize
13:46 brrt hmmm
13:46 psch i.e. on a 32bit machine 'my int $x' instantiates a P6int with 64bit, which is not to spec
13:46 brrt what would be the 'right' bitsize according to you?
13:46 brrt hmm
13:46 psch or rather, it doesn't limit to 32bit
13:47 brrt i believe its according to moarvm implementation, yes :-)
13:47 brrt in nqp, my int $x makes a true native int, and those are always 64 bit wide in moarvm, basically because all registers are 64 bits wide
13:48 brrt yes, that is a pain point on 32 bits, no, we're very unlikely to ever fix that :-)
13:49 brrt that is to say
13:49 brrt i kind of know how to fix that
13:49 brrt but i don't think we should
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13:50 psch to be fair, the one point where i noticed it being a real issue is with NativeCall, i.e. the test suite tests non-specific int against long, which works on 64bit and fails on 32bit arch
13:50 brrt hmmm
13:50 psch but then, interfacing with c code without explicit bit sizes for int is probably a bit not-so-great anyway
13:50 brrt ok, i see
13:51 brrt hmm, indeed
13:52 brrt i don't actually know how nativecall works, but i kind of imagine it being a pain on 32 bit
13:52 brrt what with the many different ABI's
13:52 FROGGS on the other hand you want to make it as easy as possible for the user
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13:52 FROGGS so we need to make that tests pass on 32bit, without modifying the test
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13:53 brrt hmmm
13:53 moritz do we have all of int, int32, int64 available for nativecall?
13:54 brrt i don't know about nativecall :-)
13:54 FROGGS moritz: yes
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13:54 brrt does explicitly passing int32 make nativecall do the right thing?
13:55 brrt i.e.
13:55 FROGGS the test is about unpacking a C struct with a long inside using a class that has an Int attribute
13:55 FROGGS err, int
13:55 FROGGS brrt: yes
13:55 brrt hmmm
13:55 FROGGS only on 32bit of course
13:55 brrt hhow... wait,
13:55 brrt is long 32 bit on 32 bit platforms?
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13:56 FROGGS for all to read: https://github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/issues/37
13:56 FROGGS brrt: yes, according to Perl -V
13:56 brrt o
13:56 FROGGS ö
13:57 brrt hmm
13:57 brrt i suppose that treating int as int32 depending on platform is correct
13:59 FROGGS yes, but trying to do it that way makes it explode
13:59 FROGGS so, I guess I did something stupid or missed something
14:01 FROGGS that is from my ubuntu 14.04 x86 VM: intsize=4, longsize=4, ptrsize=4, doublesize=8, byteorder=12345678
14:01 FROGGS my host: intsize=4, longsize=8, ptrsize=8, doublesize=8, byteorder=12345678
14:02 brrt hmmm
14:03 brrt sorry, can't really help you right now
14:05 FROGGS LIVE: https://www.youtube.com/user/yapcna/featured
14:05 FROGGS ARRRGGG! Live Streaming ist wegen Rechteproblemen in Deutschland leider nicht möglich.
14:06 psch FROGGS: yup :)
14:06 FROGGS >.<
14:08 FROGGS that sucks
14:08 psch well there is proxtube
14:09 PerlJam someone should move a mic closer to TimToady or turn up the volume or something.
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14:11 psch hm, there's no way for me to leverage the existing levenshtein implementation in World for comparing the tr/// result with the original input, is there?
14:11 FROGGS psch++ # love you! :D
14:11 psch FROGGS: you're welcome :)
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14:15 newbie_Perl6_ Can I get information about Regex? (something in pseudocode, for example)
14:15 newbie_Perl6_ token alpha / <[a..z]> /                ----->   alpha.self = (Regex.CharacterClass, ).List
14:15 newbie_Perl6_ rule expr / <alpha>+ \+ <alpha>+ /      ----->   expr.self = (alpha.TokenPlus, '+'.Str, alpha.TokenPlus).List
14:15 newbie_Perl6_ rule array / '[' <digit>* %% ',' ']' /  ----->   array.self = ('['.Str, digit.SeperatorPlus(','), ']'.Str).List
14:16 moritz newbie_Perl6_: no, they aren't introspectable
14:16 cognominal__ too bad we can't see the slides.
14:16 newbie_Perl6_ I think it's useful~~~
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14:20 newbie_Perl6 how about an introspectable regex?
14:21 moritz newbie_Perl6: if you prototype one, maybe it'll be specced
14:21 PerlJam newbie_Perl6: what you mentioned earlier looks more like the AST than what I would call introspection.
14:23 colomon TimToady is on youtube live!
14:23 colomon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxLIQxSda0E
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14:26 newbie_Perl6 Hello PerlJam, what's a introspectable regex? some idea?
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14:29 newbie_Perl6 Hello moritz. I just think it's a cool thing, but the implemetation is too hard for me.
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14:31 hoelzro morning #perl6
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14:32 moritz newbie_Perl6: you could try, and ask for help when you get stuck
14:32 PerlJam hoelzro: greetings
14:32 moritz newbie_Perl6: I also think it's cool, but it's way down my priorities list
14:33 psch hi hoelzro
14:33 lucas__ anyone watching larry live? what kind of vim script is he using? :D
14:33 colomon am watching, no idea about the vim
14:33 PerlJam TimToady's talk mentions several principles that we've seen before, but I get the feeling that an update (or perhaps an addendum) to the Perl 6 Design Principles document is in order
14:34 newbie_Perl6 joined #perl6
14:36 newbie_Perl6 moritz: I will try.
14:37 PerlJam newbie_Perl6++ trying is good.
14:37 newbie_Perl6 If someone interested in it too, please try it too.
14:38 newbie_Perl6 PerlJam, some intereting idea?
14:39 hoelzro so I tried creating a custom RoleHOW to monitor the "closing" of a class, but it seems that specialize/compose are called on declaration, and add_method on the classHOW is called afterwards
14:39 newbie_Perl6_ joined #perl6
14:39 hoelzro (I'm trying to create some postconditions for consumers of my role)
14:40 newbie_Perl6_ sorry, bad internet connection
14:44 hoelzro also, I couldn't figure out how to change the class/role HOW objects from within the same file; I had to create another file and use EXPORTHOW.  If someone could guide me on how to do that, that would be great =)
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14:55 colomon hmm, what to watch next from YAPC?
14:55 lucas__ colomon: thanks for sharing the link!
14:56 colomon you're welcome
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15:02 cognominal__ TimToady decided not to unwrap the christmas presents today. These presents are future, or unevenly distributed.
15:05 FROGGS TimToady++ # anyway :o)
15:06 FROGGS I enjoyed the talk
15:06 cognominal__ yes, it opened a window to his thought process.
15:08 jnthn For regex introspective stuff, my https://github.com/jnthn/grammar-generative does evil to actually capture the AST produced as they parse.
15:09 moritz .tell newbiew_Perl6 about https://github.com/jnthn/grammar-generative
15:09 yoleaux moritz: I'll pass your message to newbiew_Perl6.
15:09 jnthn I don't know if (a) the code still works, and (b) if it's comprehensible. :)
15:09 jnthn And (c) if I understand it any more :P
15:12 jnthn hoelzro: When I want to do stuff at compose time I just replace ClassHOW with something that has a method compose($obj { ...checks/stuff... callsame(); post-compose stuff }
15:12 jnthn With that subclassing ClassHOW of course.
15:13 hoelzro jnthn: right, but then users of my library would have to use that ClassHOW that I've built
15:13 dalek rakudo-star-daily: e8442a6 | coke++ | log/ (13 files):
15:13 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
15:13 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/commit/e8442a696a
15:13 dalek perl6-roast-data: 48aec67 | coke++ | / (5 files):
15:13 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
15:13 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/48aec67e72
15:13 jnthn And...the other way they have to use the RoleHOW you built?
15:13 hoelzro jnthn: this is what I have in mind: https://gist.github.com/hoelzro/d552753137568ac5285c
15:13 hoelzro well, apps consume the App::Subcommander role
15:13 hoelzro so I have control over the latter
15:14 hoelzro so I figured I could detect with a custom RoleHOW when the role is composed into a class
15:14 [Coke] rakudo moar tested clean today; jvm & parrot still have one failing test file.
15:14 hoelzro unfortunately, that happens too early for my checking code to make any sense
15:14 jnthn Oh.
15:15 hoelzro if you need more explanation, I'm happy to give it =)
15:15 hoelzro I would just like duplicate subcommands to be detected at compile time
15:15 jnthn I think I see the problem; need to look at the code to think of a solution...
15:15 jnthn (the metamodel code
15:15 hoelzro ah ha
15:15 jnthn )
15:16 hoelzro I spent a bit of time looking at it yesterday; I'm sure you'll be able to come up with something
15:16 hoelzro I think that I may just have to use a ClassHOW and have users subclass App::Subcommander
15:16 jnthn Yeah. Not least 'cus I can extend the thing if it isn't up to your use case :P
15:16 hoelzro rather than make it a role
15:16 jnthn anyway, back to hotel &
15:27 TimToady m: my Int constant x = 42; say x
15:27 camelia rakudo-moar a7b4cb: OUTPUT«42␤»
15:27 TimToady m: constant x of Int = 42; say x
15:27 camelia rakudo-moar a7b4cb: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/kEdFtpLoDN�Unexpected named parameter 'SYMBOL' passed�at /tmp/kEdFtpLoDN:1�------> �»
15:27 btyler TimToady++ # learned about z. in vim :)
15:27 TimToady std: constant x of Int = 42; say x
15:27 camelia std 0f2049c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 122m␤»
15:27 uniejo joined #perl6
15:28 TimToady rakudobug I guess
15:28 TimToady btyler: I'm glad someone learned something from it :)
15:29 TimToady I only covered about 15 of the 56 principles I had available, but I suppose it was unrealistic to think I could get to most of 'em
15:31 * TimToady was lucky to just finish reading all the RFCs last night
15:31 colomon TimToady++
15:32 TimToady they're quite amazing in spots :)
15:32 TimToady both ++ly and --ly
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15:52 masak good afternoon, #perl6
15:53 atroxaper masak: o/
15:53 psch hi masak
15:55 jnthn masak: afternoon? It's pretty much evening :P
15:56 TimToady still antenoon :P
15:56 masak ...four minutes left of the afternoon :P
15:57 araujo joined #perl6
15:57 PerlJam Still another hour of morning here. :)
15:58 PerlJam woolfy broke it!
15:58 TimToady ayup, woolfy++
15:59 TimToady testing-to-destruction++
16:00 Ven joined #perl6
16:00 * Ven is watching woolfy++ live
16:01 TimToady lunch &
16:04 dalek perl6-bench: 5a159b3 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | minibenchmarks.pl:
16:04 dalek perl6-bench: Add curated tags for minibenchmarks
16:04 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/5a159b33d5
16:15 Ven TimToady++'s talk was a bit more for p5ers
16:15 troydm joined #perl6
16:16 troydm hey all! I've just installed rakudo wth parrot and it takes 4-5 seconds just to start perl6 executable, why is it so slow?
16:17 colomon troydm: errr…. good question?  I just tried it on my Linux box, and it was definitely under 1 second.
16:17 colomon I expect JVM to be that slow, but not Parrot
16:19 troydm http://lpaste.net/530134410415046656
16:20 colomon troydm: thats .465 seconds "real" for me.  what sort of machine are you running on?
16:20 Ven troydm: can you perl6 -v, please :P ?
16:20 troydm This is perl6 version 2014.04 built on parrot 6.1.0 revision 0
16:21 troydm gtg be back in 30 mins
16:27 guru joined #perl6
16:34 thou TimToady++  # Inspiring an incredibly fun community
16:39 sjn_ joined #perl6
16:45 atroxaper While using role a can define method with { ... }. But can I define method with ( ... ) and { ... } also?
16:46 jnthn As in, with a signature?
16:46 atroxaper I'm going to pass arguments my introspection to some method. I just want to force customer of role to implement some method with some arguments.
16:46 atroxaper by introspection*
16:47 jnthn Oh
16:47 jnthn It doesn't try and enforce a signature match
16:47 jnthn At present, anyway.
16:47 masak TimToady++ # not giving up through X years of second system syndrome
16:48 Rotwang joined #perl6
16:48 atroxaper jnthn: ok. I will find another way maybe.
16:49 xdoctor joined #perl6
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17:07 kaleem joined #perl6
17:08 troydm so I'm back, guys why is perl6 parrot so slow on startup?
17:10 psch troydm: as colomon asked, what kind of machine are you running on?
17:10 timotimo perl6 parrot should start up fairly quickly, the times where it took a second are long gone
17:14 virtualsue joined #perl6
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17:21 carlin joined #perl6
17:21 troydm psch: virtual machine on virtualbox
17:21 troydm psch: it takes 8 seconds to load perl6 on my virtual machine
17:22 psch i have a similar setup, running a debian vm on a win7 host; i get ~1.5s real for -e'say "Hello"' on parrot perl6
17:22 troydm and other languages/interpreters work fast
17:22 troydm I've compiled rakudo on this machine
17:22 timotimo even when the cache has warmed up?
17:23 troydm yes
17:26 Akagi201_ joined #perl6
17:29 psch for reference, a laptop i have here runs moar -e'say "Hello"' in about 2.7 real; parrot is about 3 times slower i seem to recall timotimo++ said in his talk
17:29 psch that laptop is a old 2.2ghz single core though
17:29 uniejo joined #perl6
17:34 timotimo my talk?
17:35 psch yeah, you showed benchmarks at gpn, didnt you
17:35 psch i watched the first half hour yesterday before going to bed
17:35 uniejo joined #perl6
17:35 psch maybe that's why i misremembered it, if i did that :P
17:44 itz joined #perl6
17:50 dmol joined #perl6
17:52 carlin joined #perl6
17:52 fhelmberger joined #perl6
17:54 PerlJam Did doy just say Rust is similar to Perl 6?!?  ;)
17:55 atroxaper joined #perl6
17:56 moritz if you look hard enough, you find some similarities
17:57 moritz like, both are still in flux
17:57 moritz both aren't widely adopted yet
17:57 moritz ... and that's about where the similarities end :-)
18:00 colomon lizmat++ is talking on my computer!
18:02 colomon okay, lizmat is breaking up on my computer.  feed is very choppy
18:03 Akagi201_ joined #perl6
18:03 PerlJam colomon: It's probably because I switched to watching lizmat  ;)
18:03 PerlJam (But the feed is smooth for me)
18:03 moritz sounds like your computers are connected.
18:04 colomon stop sucking down all the bits!@!!!!!
18:04 * moritz will work from $home tomorrow, with public transport on strike, and family sick
18:05 colomon moritz: :(
18:05 moritz colomon: at least my employer doesn't complain, that's worth something
18:05 colomon sick family is never fun, though.
18:05 PerlJam (moritz's employer)++
18:05 moritz colomon: aye
18:06 colomon lizmat has stopped breaking up.  yay!
18:06 PerlJam What's with all of the mirrors in all of the rooms?   Are they trying to make the rooms look bigger?
18:07 moritz or afraid of vampires?
18:07 timotimo psch: i didn't know you knew german :)
18:08 PerlJam It's Florida ... who ever heard of vampires visiting Florida?
18:12 psch timotimo: german is, in fact, my first language :)
18:13 timotimo ah!
18:17 colomon CLDR, eh?
18:17 * colomon is watching patch++ now
18:19 * itz watchs timtoady on http://www.perl6.org/archive/rfc/28.html
18:23 uniejo joined #perl6
18:24 itz hmmm no lizmat sound
18:24 PerlJam itz: In that talk he also called out one of my RFCs http://www.perl6.org/archive/rfc/114.html as rejected  :)
18:24 sjohnson joined #perl6
18:27 [Sno] joined #perl6
18:27 itz ah sound now
18:28 masak PerlJam: wow, you submitted four of them.
18:29 colomon PerlJam++
18:29 masak and cognominal++ two.
18:30 PerlJam masak: I did?  I only remember a couple.
18:30 masak well, it depends on what exactly "maintainer" means on http://www.perl6.org/archive/rfc/by-group.html
18:33 PerlJam Ah ... I apparently wanted to gie ALLCAPS subroutine names back to the end-users by proposing a way to signify special subs.
18:37 lizmat joined #perl6
18:39 uniejo joined #perl6
18:43 masak special subs, as in phasers?
18:43 PerlJam aye
18:44 hoverboard joined #perl6
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18:51 lizmat joined #perl6
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19:21 lizmat good *, #perl6!
19:22 lizmat do we actually have an idea how to implement "goto" in rakudo / moar ?
19:22 psch hi lizmat
19:22 lizmat psch o/
19:23 masak hm, I remember discussing `goto` with someone recently.
19:23 masak was it you, FROGGS?
19:24 telex joined #perl6
19:24 FROGGS masak: possible
19:25 FROGGS goto shouldn't be that hard to implement in moar me thinks
19:26 FROGGS it is like unwinding after an exception happened to the spot right after the exception happened
19:26 xragnar_ joined #perl6
19:26 lizmat so it's just a SMOP ?
19:27 FROGGS so the goto label stores its "pc" (p-something counter), and then we just unwind to it using nqp::unwind perhaps
19:27 lizmat *program* ?
19:27 FROGGS "perhaps" :o)
19:28 dwarring joined #perl6
19:29 moritz I think the PC stands for "politically correct" register :-)
19:29 lizmat :-)
19:29 FROGGS hehe
19:29 lizmat moritz o/
19:29 FROGGS "Perl 6 has P.C. built-in" - that fits :o)
19:30 uniejo joined #perl6
19:34 masak I have an idea that I can't quite express yet.
19:35 masak it may turn into one of my YAPC::EU talk proposals.
19:35 masak the idea is something like "a macro toolkit for building control flow has an API that looks stackless, regardless of actual underlying implementation"
19:36 FROGGS what a nice short catching title :P
19:36 moritz s/has/as/ ?
19:37 masak moritz: no, 'has'
19:38 fab1an joined #perl6
19:38 masak as in, the idea is that a toolkit (invariably?) *has* such an API.
19:38 lizmat s/has/which has/ ?
19:38 masak you keep wanting my idea to be a noun phrase! :P
19:38 ajr joined #perl6
19:38 pecastro joined #perl6
19:38 * [Coke] is nearly at Worthington, Minnesota.
19:38 lizmat choo choo!
19:39 * lizmat assumes [Coke] is on a train
19:40 fab1an Hi there. I am trying to connect to an sqlite db. Using DBIish.connect('SQLite') command i need to add an database name. Does anyone knows how?
19:40 moritz fab1an: didn't we have that topic, like, yesterday?
19:41 fab1an yap. i am working on an example for the readme.
19:41 * moritz wates far too much time on http://dhmholley.co.uk/civclicker.html building a zombie-only empire
19:42 moritz fab1an: did you get it working from looking at the test code?
19:43 [Coke] lizmat: nope. the wife is driving us across country in a rented car.
19:43 lizmat ah, your support human (as Chip Salzenberg explained to me today)
19:43 lizmat :-)
19:44 fab1an unfortunately no. copy pasting the connection steps to the repl does not work,
19:46 cc joined #perl6
19:46 [Coke] hee.
19:46 [Coke] Hey, tell chip I said hi!
19:47 moritz sm: use DBIish; my $dbh = DBIish.connect( 'SQLite', :database<camelia.sqlite3> ); say $dbh.prepare('SELECT abs(4)').fetchrow.perl
19:47 camelia star-m 2014.04: OUTPUT«Cannot locate native library 'libsqlite3.so'␤  in method postcircumfix:<( )> at /home/p6eval/star-2014.04/languages/perl6/lib/NativeCall.pm6:127␤  in method connect at /home/p6eval/star-2014.04/languages/perl6/lib/DBDish/SQLite.pm6:221␤  in method connec…»
19:48 moritz fab1an: how does it not work?
19:49 moritz sm: use DBIish; my $dbh = DBIish.connect( 'SQLite', :database<camelia.sqlite3> ); say $dbh.prepare('SELECT abs(4)').fetchrow.perl
19:49 camelia star-m 2014.04: OUTPUT«fetchrow_array without prior execute␤  in method fetchrow at /home/p6eval/star-2014.04/languages/perl6/lib/DBDish/SQLite.pm6:136␤  in block  at /tmp/XCrF0Z6Nit:1␤␤»
19:50 moritz sm: use DBIish; my $dbh = DBIish.connect( 'SQLite', :database<camelia.sqlite3> ); my $sth = $dbh.prepare('SELECT abs(4)'); $sth.execute; say $sth.fetchrow.perl
19:50 camelia star-m 2014.04: OUTPUT«Array.new("4")␤»
19:50 moritz fab1an: working example produced right there for you
19:51 fab1an i am trying it... and it works. :-)
19:52 fab1an what is this construct: :database<camelia.sqlite3>?
19:52 uniejo joined #perl6
19:52 masak fab1an: it's a pair.
19:52 masak fab1an: where the key is a string.
19:53 masak er, value*
19:53 masak though the key is a string, too :)
19:53 masak fab1an: it means 'database' => 'camelia.sqlite3'
19:53 moritz short form of database => 'camelia.sqlite3'
19:53 * [Coke] uploads one of the worthington shots, though this is not the best one:
19:53 [Coke] http://feather.perl6.nl/~coke/worthington.jpg
19:53 moritz masak: without the quotes around the key (that wouldn't be a named arg)
19:53 fab1an ahh ok.
19:55 fab1an i will add an example script with a short description to the readme. i think this will help other trying to use DBIish.
19:55 moritz ++fab1an
19:56 [Coke] crap, anyone II might of visited perl wise on the west coast is probably on the EAST coast. :)
19:59 REPLeffect joined #perl6
20:00 masak moritz: ah, right.
20:00 lizmat joined #perl6
20:01 [Coke] gah. *might have
20:02 logie joined #perl6
20:03 FROGGS lizmat: about the goto SMOP.... goto is just that ugly that it is not even on my TODO :o)
20:04 lizmat ah, ok
20:04 * lizmat makes mental note
20:05 btyler joined #perl6
20:06 * FROGGS is still fighting Archive::Tar...
20:06 FROGGS which also has at least one goto
20:07 lizmat can you get around it (no punt intended)
20:07 lizmat *pun
20:08 FROGGS I guess a loop and a redo will do
20:08 brrt whats wrong with goto?
20:09 FROGGS yes, it is only one label and the goto's come afterwards in the same sub
20:09 FROGGS brrt: you often can't see the label, so you cannot see where it jumps to
20:10 lizmat brrt: it needs to go looking up the stack for it at runtime
20:10 lizmat at least in p5  :-)
20:10 * brrt would be trolling if he suggested to get a bigger screen (or smaller letters or better glasses)
20:10 brrt what
20:10 brrt up the... what
20:11 lizmat call stack
20:11 brrt i'm kidding, though, but, look up on the stack? how even
20:11 FROGGS in our case the label is just a lexical, like we redo a loop atm
20:11 brrt ahaa
20:11 brrt the very late binding thing :-)
20:11 psch wrt "can't see the label": zf* when on the label in vim should let you see it... :)
20:11 FROGGS the label would be in the call chain... hmmm
20:13 brrt i'm still struggling to imagine a case wherein the goto label would be dynamically bound
20:13 brrt oh, i know one case
20:13 brrt exceptions
20:14 virtualsue joined #perl6
20:15 psch anyway, tr/// now just needs actual code to compute the distance instead of just doing &infix:<ne> on the original lhs and the result and escape sequences
20:15 psch the latter is what i've been trying the last few hours, and it's enough for today
20:15 psch so, good night #perl6 o/
20:15 lizmat good night Psyche^_
20:16 lizmat .oO( not fast enough :-)
20:17 kivutar joined #perl6
20:26 lucas__ p6: sub foo is export(:a, :b, :c) {}; say "alive";
20:26 camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Export tags NYI at /tmp/tmpfile line 1:�------> [32msub foo is export(:a, :b, :c) [33m�[31m{}; say "alive";[0m��Unhandled exception: Check failed��  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line …»
20:26 camelia ..rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} a7b4cb: OUTPUT«alive␤»
20:26 lucas__ p6: sub foo is export(:a :b :c) {}; say "alive";
20:26 camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Multi colonpair syntax not yet understood at /tmp/tmpfile line 1:�------> [32msub foo is export(:a :b :c[33m�[31m) {}; say "alive";[0m��Export tags NYI at /tmp/tmpfile line 1:�------> [32msub foo is e…»
20:26 camelia ..rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} a7b4cb: OUTPUT«alive␤»
20:26 lucas__ commas are optional in export lists?
20:27 lucas__ or maybe I didn't get pair syntax right
20:28 lucas__ std: sub foo is export(:a, :b, :c) {}
20:28 camelia std 0f2049c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 127m␤»
20:28 lucas__ std: sub foo is export(:a :b :c) {}
20:28 camelia std 0f2049c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 125m␤»
20:34 brrt left #perl6
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21:08 masak 'night, #perl6
21:09 FROGGS gnight masak
21:12 atroxaper joined #perl6
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23:05 Kirkkaf Hello, can someone provide some guidance on whether I should begin my journey with Perl 5 or 6? I am require to learn Perl to further my career but have never really done any serious programming.
23:09 japhb_ Kirkkaf, What do you mean when you say you are required "to learn Perl to further my career"?  Are you working in a group that does a lot of Perl already?  If so, you probably want to learn the same one they are using, which is most likely a Perl 5.
23:11 japhb_ If you were just told "Learn a Perl, it's good for your brain", then your choice is more open.  We tend to believe Perl 6 is pretty good for your brain, but it is not bulletproof, hardened, and ready for large-scale high-volume deployments yet.  (We are still working on a few final features, as well as heavily working on optimization, bug squashing, and shaving off the sharp bits of edge cases.)
23:13 nickf_mt So, quick question...  Looking to get started playing with Perl 6...  I note the perl6 book on github was last updated in 2012...  Would this still be a useful resource to start with, or should I look at more current online tutorials/refs?
23:13 atroxaper joined #perl6
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23:17 Kirkkaf japhb_, my company is writing alot of Perl but the version was not specified so I guess I will have to get the details but are the two very different in design?
23:17 japhb_ Kirkkaf, Yes, Perl 6 is a completely new language, more of a sister language than a version increment.
23:19 japhb_ Perl 6 includes a large number of features that couldn't reasonably be retrofitted into Perl 5 due to backwards-compatibility constraints in the Perl 5 community.
23:19 japhb_ So Perl 6 takes advantage of the compatibility break to include some amazing new features.
23:21 japhb_ nickf_mt, What kinds of things are you interested in learning?
23:22 japhb_ Note that I've not read the GitHub Perl 6 book, as I joined the community before it was written.
23:25 nickf_mt hrm... didn't have a lot of specifics in mind, just looking to play with a new language.  I guess I'll probably be wanting to interface with databases, use regex if I use it at work down the line
23:25 nickf_mt maybe output excel files.  (working through the cpa exam atm, starting as a tax accountant in september)
23:29 nickf_mt Any idea how much the language itself has changed in the last 2 years?  As opposed to ironing out implementation/performance issues
23:33 japhb_ nickf_mt, You'll definitely want to learn about Grammars.  jnthn++ has a good talk on this: http://jnthn.net/papers/2014-fosdem-perl6-today.pdf
23:34 nickf_mt excellent, thank you.  downloading :)
23:35 japhb_ As for language changes, there have been changes in the concurrency design, an expansion of Rakudo to multiple backends that had some knock-on effects as we learned more, a fleshing out (and implementation) of the more advanced module ecosystem design, and so on.
23:36 japhb_ The core language hasn't changed much, just gotten smoother, less buggy, faster, and so on.
23:36 japhb_ Oh, there have also been improvements in I/O, especially with the creation of the async I/O model.
23:36 japhb_ (I'm sure there are more that I am forgetting off the top of my head.)
23:38 nickf_mt ok... so sounds like I should plan on looking elsewhere once I get past the very basics, unless they update that book :)
23:39 nickf_mt given my large block of freetime to really dig in will be August though, I shan't count on that happening
23:41 nickf_mt Oh, sounds like the rest of the family's home.  Thanks for the info, japhb .  See y'all next time I have a little downtime!
23:41 japhb_ nickf_mt, The channel is quite helpful too, and most active from about 8 AM to midnight in the European timezones (others are available in Asia and Americas, but fewer of us at any given time).
23:41 japhb_ nickf_mt, Enjoy!
23:42 nickf_mt alrighty, thanks again!
23:44 Akagi201_ joined #perl6

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