Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-07-07

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:27 dalek perl6-roast-data: 308115a | coke++ | / (6 files):
00:27 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
00:27 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/308115a53b
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00:34 [Coke] (mojo6) I started working on that, with the least bit of brain I could, which involved mojo-util. I finally have some cycles available, but probably need someone to work with to try to port mojo more aggressively. (otherwise, I tend to work more on shiny things or cleaning up tests, things like that.)
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00:41 * [Coke] has a very close relative whose birthday is Nov 11
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02:42 ssutch how does one address circular module loading in p6?
02:43 ssutch in python normally we just move the import statement local
02:46 ren1us ssutch: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-06-12#i_8860068 (the answer I got a while back)
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02:57 ssutch ren1us: thanks!
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03:03 ssutch ren1us: did you get around it by using need My::Class;
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03:06 Mouq .tell jnthn Something is broken on the latest Moar such that htmlify.p6 no longer works, dieing with "Error while compiling op call: Local '__lowered_param_0' already declared"
03:06 yoleaux Mouq: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
03:07 Mouq .tell jnthn htmlify.p6 in perl6/doc, that is
03:07 yoleaux Mouq: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
03:15 ssutch =/ maybe i just cant have type constraints unless the two classes are in the same file
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03:17 Mouq ssutch: You can't just declare a stub?
03:19 Mouq my class XYZ { } ?
03:21 Mouq .ask tadzik If there's going to be an effort to port Mojo to Perl 6, would it be better to rename your Template::Mojo as Mojo6::Template or similar?
03:21 yoleaux Mouq: I'll pass your message to tadzik.
03:21 Mouq and tadzik++
03:21 Mouq jnthn++ for that matter
03:21 Mouq coke++
03:21 Mouq e'rybody++
03:24 TimToady Mouq++ :)
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03:30 Mouq :)
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03:46 * Mouq is equally entertained and perplexed by the Futurama quotes in the Mojolicious source
03:48 ssutch hrm IO::Socket::INET.read(12) runs the cpu to 100% and blocks the OS until ubuntu kills it
03:48 ssutch on the moar backend
03:49 ssutch wireshark can see the reply from the server
03:51 TimToady the IO system still is a bit primitive compared to the rest of p6, I fear
03:52 ssutch heh
03:52 TimToady 'course, if it was C, I'd just say "that's a library issue, not a language issue"  :)
03:53 _sri Mouq: perplexed?
03:57 ssutch maybe ill come back to this tomorrow and give it a go on another backend, or try to fix the IO issue
03:57 ssutch for now though i'm bushed, g'night p6!
03:57 Mouq _sri: The first I saw was http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojo/IOLoop.txt and I thought maybe there was a death ray hidden in the code xD
03:58 Mouq 'night ssutch!
03:58 _sri but there is!
03:59 Mouq _sri: Mercury beam? or neutron cannon?
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04:15 _sri Mouq: mostly magic... it opens a portal to callback hell and summons a greater evil
04:15 _sri you know... the usual async i/o stuff
04:27 Mouq _sri: Ohhh, yes. That is dark magic indeed, my friend
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06:41 tadzik Mouq: probably, yes :)
06:41 yoleaux 03:21Z <Mouq> tadzik: If there's going to be an effort to port Mojo to Perl 6, would it be better to rename your Template::Mojo as Mojo6::Template or similar?
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06:42 tadzik well, actually, I think Template::Mojo is a perfect name for that
06:43 tadzik it makes sense for templating engines to be in a Template namespace, I think. Mojo::Template could be that-part-of-mojo-that-deals-with-template-engines
06:44 sergot morning o/
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08:06 atroxaper Hello, #perl6 !
08:06 FROGGS hi atroxaper
08:06 atroxaper FROGGS: o/
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08:08 atroxaper How do you think what should we get if translate pod 'L<C<boom>>' to HTML? Is it <a href="boom"><code>boom</code></a>? Or the same but with href="#" ?
08:09 FROGGS I have no idea... I'm not much into Pod :/
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08:10 atroxaper I almost finish my system for writing Pod To Something converters. Now I'm trying to rewrite Pod::To::HTML to my system.
08:11 FROGGS I think you have to as others, sorry
08:11 atroxaper The next plained step is Pod::To::Markdown. Because github cant parse Pod format :)
08:12 FROGGS Mouq++ and lue++ might know
08:12 atroxaper Maybe somebody will see my question :)
08:12 atroxaper FROGGS: thank you
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08:24 atroxaper Current Pod::To::HTML do so '<a href="<code>boom</code>"><code>boom</code></a>'. And I think it's wrong...
08:31 FROGGS yeah, I can agree on that :o)
08:32 FROGGS I guess href="#" makes most sense, because you do not want to have huge anchors or even newlines in them
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08:37 atroxaper FROGGS: maybe. But as I understand from S26 <a href="boom"><code>boom</code></a> will be the best. I mean we should get bare content of L<> and put into href.
08:38 FROGGS yeah, true
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08:48 dalek rakudo/nom: e21b8fc | (Tobias Leich)++ | lib/Test.pm:
08:48 dalek rakudo/nom: strip # from description in todo tests
08:48 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e21b8fc84a
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09:02 masak good antenoon, #perl6
09:05 atroxaper masak: hello
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09:07 masak hello, and welcome to another interesting day in Perl 6's development!
09:10 atroxaper masak: What do you mean? :)
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09:11 atroxaper Btw, is there list's shift by from the last element instead of first. Or list's push to the first element? I need to write simple stack.
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09:12 masak I mean just what I say. which part of the sentence did you find confusing?
09:12 masak atroxaper: .pop -- .unshift
09:12 masak atroxaper: prefer the .push/.pop pair to the .unshift/.shift pair for performance.
09:12 * vendethiel rewrote his 100-lines C++ queue class in 20 lines of P6
09:12 atroxaper masak: the sentence isn't usual)
09:13 masak granted.
09:13 masak but it's not very complicated, either.
09:13 atroxaper masak: thanks!
09:16 jnthn .shift is pretty efficient these days since it just moves a start pointer.
09:16 yoleaux 03:06Z <Mouq> jnthn: Something is broken on the latest Moar such that htmlify.p6 no longer works, dieing with "Error while compiling op call: Local '__lowered_param_0' already declared"
09:16 yoleaux 03:07Z <Mouq> jnthn: htmlify.p6 in perl6/doc, that is
09:16 jnthn Hm, that's nothing to do with Moar, that's a Rakudo optimizer issue...
09:17 jnthn Looks like, anyways...
09:17 masak jnthn: is that to the point where .shift isn't significantly slower than .push ?
09:17 jnthn If you s/push/pop/ then yes
09:17 masak right, meant that.
09:17 jnthn unshift can be a little more costly
09:17 masak ah, thought so.
09:17 masak so it still makes sense to prefer .push/.pop
09:18 jnthn but if the thing is in a steady state of shift/unshift rather than continuous growth it'll come out about the same
09:18 jnthn For documentation alone, if you mean "a stack" then push/pop make sense. :)
09:19 atroxaper jnthn: yes. I want a stack.
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09:37 vendethiel .ask raiph finally coming to your gist (after an awesome week without touching a comp), I have a question on "# you don't explain why sigils are needed in general. maybe remove?" <- why don't I need to ?
09:37 yoleaux vendethiel: I'll pass your message to raiph.
09:39 vendethiel also "capture" a function seems correct to me
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09:44 vendethiel well, integrated everything except 2 or 3 minor thingies I rewrote differently. raiph++
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10:25 vendethiel oh, looks like the mailer delivered me something ...
10:32 * vendethiel lizmat hey-oh
10:57 dalek nqp: 8683e9c | sergot++ | src/vm/moar/QAST/QASTOperationsMAST.nqp:
10:57 dalek nqp: nativecast operator added
10:57 dalek nqp:
10:57 dalek nqp: nativecast op has been added, it makes us able to cast things
10:57 dalek nqp: conditionally. FROGGS++
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10:58 dalek rakudo/nom: 25c5114 | (Tobias Leich)++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
10:58 dalek rakudo/nom: bump nqp/moar rev for nativecallcast op
10:58 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/25c51143a2
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10:59 vend \o
10:59 FROGGS hi vend
10:59 vendethiel hi
10:59 sergot o/
10:59 timotimo spam mails are getting harder and harder to spot. this time i got a fake amazon order confirmation with the correct address. it said "Die Bestellung geht an: Deutschland"
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11:00 dalek zavolaj: d249648 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (3 files):
11:00 dalek zavolaj: Reenable usage of nqp::nativecast, and its tests
11:00 dalek zavolaj:
11:00 dalek zavolaj: This reverts commit c0f68bca0a3d34a7d59f872fce0e7f34892cdff2.
11:00 dalek zavolaj: review: https://github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/commit/d249648259
11:00 dalek zavolaj: 20424bd | (Tobias Leich)++ | lib/NativeCall.pm6:
11:00 dalek zavolaj: bind result of nqp::nativecallcast so there is no extra container
11:00 dalek zavolaj:
11:00 dalek zavolaj: Otherwise calling nqp::isint($result) will blow up.
11:00 dalek zavolaj: review: https://github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/commit/20424bd4af
11:00 dalek zavolaj: 019d26e | (Tobias Leich)++ | lib/NativeCall.pm6:
11:00 dalek zavolaj: box native string returned by nativecallcast when we get one
11:00 dalek zavolaj: review: https://github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/commit/019d26e30a
11:00 dalek zavolaj: ec3f509 | (Tobias Leich)++ | lib/NativeCall.pm6:
11:00 dalek zavolaj: simplify sub nativecast
11:00 dalek zavolaj:
11:00 dalek zavolaj: We do not need to box the return value anymore since we provide the proper
11:00 dalek zavolaj: box target now. A call looks now like: nativecast(int32, Int, $opaque-pointer)
11:00 dalek zavolaj: review: https://github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/commit/ec3f50927b
11:05 atroxaper How can I define a module more correctly? module Foo {} or class Foo; And what is the difference?
11:07 atroxaper I have a problem... If I define "module Foo { sub bar(){} }" then i can't call Foo.bar(). But if I define "class Foo; method bar(){}" I can call Foo.bar()
11:07 atroxaper I don't want to use is export.
11:08 FROGGS Foo.bar() is always a method call of an instance of a class
11:08 FROGGS Foo::bar() would be a sub call in a module/class Foo, the sub must be our scoped then
11:09 FROGGS m: module Foo { our sub bar() { 42 } }; say Foo::bar
11:09 camelia rakudo-moar e21b8f: OUTPUT«42␤»
11:09 FROGGS m: module Foo { our sub bar() { 42 } }; say bar # this will blow up
11:09 camelia rakudo-moar e21b8f: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/K7eWgnlvf9â�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    bar used at line 1. Did you mean 'bag'?â�¤â�¤Â»
11:09 atroxaper FROGGS: Oh. Yes! I forgot about 'our' and can't imaging whay Foo::bar doesn't work)
11:10 FROGGS hope that helps :o)
11:10 atroxaper FROGGS: as I understand first example from http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2009/12/12/day-12-modules-and-exporting/ is wrong without 'our'
11:11 FROGGS m: module Foo { sub bar() { 42 } }; say Foo::bar
11:11 camelia rakudo-moar e21b8f: OUTPUT«Could not find symbol '&bar'␤  in method <anon> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:12877␤  in any find_method_fallback at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:2604␤  in any find_method at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:934␤  in block  at /tmp/MNfQl2mei5:1␤␤»
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11:11 FROGGS yes, subs are my scoped by default
11:12 FROGGS (in contrast to any kind of package, like module/class/role/...)
11:12 atroxaper FROGGS: 'our' helped me. And you too :)
11:12 FROGGS :o)
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12:14 vendethiel then again, rakudobrew totally failed me. Guess I'll just build by source
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12:15 vendethiel "make: write error"
12:16 FROGGS that sounds MacOSXish
12:16 vendethiel yeah
12:16 vendethiel and why has vend gone to sleep ? uh.
12:16 FROGGS that is a bug in make
12:17 vendethiel I can tell it's not sleeping ...
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12:20 lizmat vendethiel: just ignore the "make: write error" on OS X
12:20 lizmat it's a long standing issue with make on OS X that seems to be tickled by rakudo
12:20 Ven I can't. There's no perl6 executable ..
12:20 lizmat run it again
12:20 lizmat empirically, the segfault in the make install only happens if it compiled something in nqp
12:21 lizmat if you run it again, all in nqp has already been compiled, so no problem then
12:21 vendethiel uh-oh. That indeed looks like a nasty bug ...
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12:47 dalek roast/S26-WHY: a2ab77a | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-TODO:
12:47 dalek roast/S26-WHY: More things TODO for S26
12:47 dalek roast/S26-WHY: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/a2ab77a2e1
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12:58 [Coke] FROGGS: rather than strip the #'s, please escape them.
12:59 FROGGS [Coke]: how?
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13:01 [Coke] FROGGS: excellent question. (looks at http://testanything.org/tap-specification.html) ... I withdraw my suggestion. :)
13:01 [Coke] FROGGS++
13:01 [Coke] (I think that \# works, but not worth it.)
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13:34 psch hi #perl6 o/
13:35 moritz \o psch
13:35 colomon_ \o
13:40 raiph o/
13:40 yoleaux 09:37Z <vendethiel> raiph: finally coming to your gist (after an awesome week without touching a comp), I have a question on "# you don't explain why sigils are needed in general. maybe remove?" <- why don't I need to ?
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13:44 zengargoyle sergot: moritz: thanks for the bit.
13:44 raiph .tell vendethiel Has http://scriptogr.am/vendethiel/post/and-perl-6-came-forth changed? Given other langs don't need sigils, your answer to "Why is it needed?" seems unsatisfying. Maybe "When is it needed?". My issue with "capture" was that it already has a different technical meaning in P6 (actually at least 2 entirely distinct technical meanings)
13:44 raiph . But this last is a very minor nit.
13:44 yoleaux raiph: I'll pass your message to vendethiel.
13:44 vendethiel I'm here
13:44 yoleaux 13:44Z <raiph> vendethiel: Has http://scriptogr.am/vendethiel/post/and-perl-6-came-forth changed? Given other langs don't need sigils, your answer to "Why is it needed?" seems unsatisfying. Maybe "When is it needed?". My issue with "capture" was that it already has a different technical meaning in P6 (actually at least 2 entirely distinct technical meanings)
13:45 vendethiel thanks yoleaux.
13:46 vendethiel raiph: maybe "which sigil to use" ?
13:47 vendethiel and wrt capture, I see, but I don't have a better term for it atm
13:47 jnthn You don't *need* all kinds of things in a langauge, but sometimes introducing them gives nice properties.
13:47 raiph vendethiel: yeah, that sort of thing (sigil)
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14:07 zengargoyle vendethiel: in Passing parameters ... Also, in Perl 6, the last expression (or last line) of a function is automatically returned. ... might be better mentioned after a non-say function.
14:07 vendethiel not for now
14:08 zengargoyle i.e. it seems to imply that 'Hello, Stephen' is the return value.
14:09 zengargoyle and would make more sense with something like sub add($n) { $n + 1 }
14:10 zengargoyle becase it's the REPL that's not printing the return value since it saw output.
14:12 zengargoyle m: my $rv; sub hello(Any $name) { $rv = say "Hello, $name" }; hello("Steve"); say $rv;
14:12 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«Hello, Steve␤True␤»
14:15 psch i think that's better solved with mentioning that the REPL doesn't print the return value when the last statements is a say
14:15 psch in "Getting started" there's mention of how the REPL prints the retval or nothing if there wasn't one
14:16 psch maybe add that the return value of say gets swallowed by the REPL because it's assumed that it doesn't matter
14:16 psch or is it output to STDOUT in general? something to that effect
14:17 vendethiel psch: it's mentioned already
14:18 psch yeah, i just saw :)
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14:23 zengargoyle i just think that if you introduce a rule, it shoule be with an example that shows that rule, or at least not with an example that demonstrates an exception to that rule (unless you point out the exception)
14:26 zengargoyle then again, the REPL seems to be full of weirdness with nested scopes and such.
14:26 lizmat FROGGS: it seems like your last change to lib/Test.pm makes some "skip" tests also get the "todo" text
14:27 lizmat specifically in t/spec/S04-declarations/will.t, test #3:
14:27 lizmat ok 3 -  SKIP declared variable not visible in block yet# TODO will init NYI
14:27 FROGGS ummm
14:28 lizmat this will give a TODO passed
14:28 lizmat when in fact we're skipping the test
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14:29 lizmat somehow $todo_reason is not reset
14:29 FROGGS lizmat: that means that this todo lives too long: https://github.com/perl6/roast/blob/master/S04-declarations/will.t#L25
14:30 FROGGS but yeah.. why
14:30 FROGGS I can't take care of it right now, I'm bisecting rakudo :/
14:30 lizmat perhaps it selects the wrong skip mmd
14:30 lizmat ok
14:30 lizmat will look at it then
14:30 FROGGS lizmat++
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14:45 lizmat hmmm... it seems to generate a todo() for *every* line in the block that's being todo'd, rather than just the line with "is"
14:48 dalek roast: 5826376 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S04-declarations/will.t:
14:48 dalek roast: Work around 4x todo generating strangeness
14:48 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/5826376d14
14:49 lizmat the only thing I can think of, is that it somehow gets confused by the BEGIN and INIT blocks
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14:49 lizmat this seems to fix the test error reporting problem, but does not fix the underlying fudging issue
14:49 lizmat cycling&
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15:10 hoelzro morning #perl6
15:10 FROGGS hi hoelzro
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15:14 hoelzro ahoy FROGGS
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15:38 moritz rakudo's todo() function should catch # in the TODO message
15:38 moritz it seems to be a common-ish error
15:41 masak +1
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15:42 gtodd easy to use "time" to make lazy comparisons of the speed of a script/oneliner with perl6-m versus perl6-j  versus perl6-p  how can I (not really scientifically) compare/test the speed of p6 on the jvm factoring out the jvm load?  maybe start the repl perl6-j and then eval the script ...  are there newbeasy-to-use timing or benchmarking tools somewhere in the distrubtion (./t ./tools)?
15:44 gtodd granted in the flying car future jvm startup time will not be a factor ....
15:45 FROGGS jnthn: there are 44 cases when compiling the setting that where blocks were inlined... I try to figure out now which not-inlined blocks cause the REDUCE fail for perl6-p
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15:45 moritz gtodd: there's a perl6-bench repo where there's some logic for factoring out startup time
15:45 FROGGS gtodd: we already have an eval server
15:45 moritz no idea how well that functionaility is exposedto the outside
15:46 FROGGS our spectests use it... you'd start the server and send stuff to it that gets evaled
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15:46 moritz another option is to run END { say now - BEGIN now }
15:46 moritz it's not quite correct (it doesn't count compilation time prior to that time), but it's a good start
15:47 FROGGS I think in perl6-bench it runs an empty program ten times to measure the startup time, and this gets subtracted later
15:47 Ven joined #perl6
15:48 gtodd moritz: oh good ok
15:48 vendethiel moritz: CHECK instead of BEGIN ?
15:48 FROGGS do we have CHECK?
15:48 moritz vendethiel: then it won't count compile time at all
15:48 vendethiel oh, you want to count it
15:49 gtodd FROGGS: yeah I thought of just timing the naked startup and subtracting :)
15:49 Akagi201 joined #perl6
15:50 gtodd FROGGS: I didn't really look into setting up my own eval server ... if it is not too complicated that is what I am going to do :)
15:51 FROGGS gtodd: it sits just there in the root dir of rakudo
15:51 FROGGS grep for the script's filename in t/, and you'll know how to invoke it
15:51 * gtodd likes the idea of perl6 running all the time ...
15:51 Akagi201_ joined #perl6
15:52 FROGGS well, that kinda happens on my box anyway :o)
15:52 brrt left #perl6
15:54 FROGGS jnthn: these are the 44 poisened blocks btw: https://gist.github.com/FROGGS/15dc422d8cd27849b9a0
15:59 carlin joined #perl6
16:01 [Coke] Ugh. looks like I need to add a ulimited perl6 runner to the daily star runs.
16:02 [Coke] (looks like modules/file-find might be timing out.)
16:02 [Coke] er, hanging.
16:04 lyda left #perl6
16:04 colomon_ [Coke]: I ran into a bit of that last week.
16:06 [Coke] yah, I wasn't really looking at things when on vaca last two weeks, just pushing the results I did get.
16:07 [Coke] Easy enough to steal from the roast-data project which is already doing that.
16:09 [Coke] anyone mind if I rip out the Order::Decrease tests from roast?
16:09 gtodd ok sorry to blather on .... just so I 'm getting this straight ... I just did time perl6-j -e 'END { say now - BEGIN now }'  which printed out 0.2249989  and "20.04s user 1.34s system 174% cpu 12.266 total" so this tells me it seems to take about 12 seconds to start the jvm (a mechanical clock on my desk roughly confirms this) the 20s user being something to do with threads/multicore or in any case not for my brain to d
16:09 [Coke] (given that rakudo doesn't have them, and anyone else is dead, dying, or hasn't started yet?)
16:10 [Coke] gtodd: "for my brain to de"
16:10 btyler_ joined #perl6
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16:11 FROGGS [Coke]: +1
16:11 gtodd eeply consider ... trying that .... :)
16:12 rurban1 joined #perl6
16:12 FROGGS gtodd: you see that it uses 174% cpu
16:12 FROGGS it has a concurrent GC
16:12 colomon_ [Coke]: wait, what's that about Order::Decrease?
16:12 gtodd yes  :-)
16:13 gtodd FROGGS: what you just said == "deep" for me :)
16:13 FROGGS colomon_: it will go more or less
16:14 colomon_ Should be Order::Less now?
16:14 colomon_ m: say "a" cmp "b"
16:14 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«Less␤»
16:14 dmol joined #perl6
16:15 gtodd if I remove that time from perl6-j it comes second to perl6-m moar and ahead of perl6-p parrot which I gather is expected behavior these days ...
16:17 _Slade joined #perl6
16:17 colomon_ [Coke], FROGGS: should the Order::Decrease tests be removed or renovated?
16:17 gtodd so the goal is parity re "correctness" vis-à-vis the SPEC but for now .....  moar = fastest parrot = most "correct" jvm == "safest" or something like that?
16:18 FROGGS colomon_: as I understand it there are tests for less/more, and the others are kept as regression tests, which does not make much sense
16:18 FROGGS gtodd: jvm is not really safe
16:18 FROGGS gtodd: parrot was reliable until like a week ago
16:18 FROGGS (we broke it)
16:19 FROGGS and yes, moar is the fastest
16:19 colomon_ FROGGS, [Coke]: Huh.  Well, I guess I'm against deleting things that we don't understand why they are still there at all.  Maybe give a day or two for someone to protest to their proposed deletion?
16:20 gtodd FROGGS: ok ... I'm sure parrot is just "resting" :-)
16:20 FROGGS colomon_: that already happened, TimToady also said something about that
16:20 FROGGS gtodd: I am about to fix the regression btw
16:20 colomon_ FROGGS: Ah, well then, burn it.
16:21 jnthn JVM is safest when it comes to concurrency stuff :)
16:21 gtodd FROGGS:  possibly jvm == most useful for getting people to try perl6 ... or maybe perlito ...
16:22 jnthn gtodd: Most people will get bored waiting for it to start up... ;) Unless they have a specific interest in JVM, Moar is the best bet for new users, I think.
16:22 FROGGS yeah, I think so too
16:22 FROGGS "here, install that" ... and three minutes later they can play
16:23 gtodd yeah ...
16:23 gtodd but hmm eval server + web-ish front end .... (maybe perlito too) and a way to save snippets somewhere ...
16:26 FROGGS gtodd: yes, that idea flies around from time to time :o)
16:26 gtodd maybe that would be a perlito front end specific sort of thing for $FUTURE with a web repl (a la Juila) and ways to save edit code in some fancy HTML5 Web30 thingy
16:26 gtodd could work for perl5 too :-D
16:27 Alula_ joined #perl6
16:27 slavik joined #perl6
16:27 gtodd or just use emacs ;-)
16:28 gtodd jnthn: is moar the sort of thing that will  build/link/run just about anywhere eventually?
16:29 FROGGS jnthn: yes, that's the plan
16:30 jnthn gtodd: Well, anywhere its dependencies build, at least... But those are relatively portable.
16:30 denis_boyun_ joined #perl6
16:30 gtodd here it seems to be lnked to libc and libmoar ...
16:31 gtodd oh and libkvm libm and libthr :-P
16:32 gtodd jnthn: anyway pretty cool stuff  :-) yay for you
16:32 atroxaper joined #perl6
16:32 jnthn :)
16:32 jnthn Time to cook some dinner, methinks... bbiab.
16:32 gtodd and your helpers of course
16:33 jnthn yes, helpers++ :)
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17:04 [Coke] colomon_: the tests were added when we switched from decrease to less.
17:05 [Coke] IMO, only makes sense to have stuff like that in roast across perl 6 spec release boundaries, and we haven't crossed one of those yet.
17:05 * TimToady tends to agree
17:05 * [Coke] will remove them later tonight, methinks.
17:06 TimToady deprecated deprecations, yum!
17:06 * [Coke] is also considering adding all test files to rakudo's spectest.data and fudging them appropriately, or removing the corresponding roast files because they date from pugs.0
17:07 [Coke] that involves work, though, so that won't happen so quickly. :)
17:07 * TimToady wonders how hard it would be to write an input method that greps character names and gives you a list that matches to pick from
17:08 TimToady of course, then we'll discover that nobody can remember what « and » are called
17:09 TimToady or how to spell DIAERESIS...
17:09 timotimo isn't that some kind of disease?
17:10 TimToady most endemic to europe
17:10 TimToady *mostly
17:10 timotimo sounds dangerous
17:12 isBEKaml timotimo: not at all, it's just a tick.
17:12 isBEKaml timotimo: or tic
17:12 timotimo :D
17:16 itz_ joined #perl6
17:16 [Coke] TimToady: you might want to review the unicode modules on the most wanted list to see if those make sense in our new world order.
17:16 [Coke] (you may have already done some of the work they're asking for.)
17:27 denis_boyun_ joined #perl6
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17:47 zengargoyle should probably start a web page somewhere for "How do I type «»?"
17:47 TimToady how would one search for it? :P
17:47 timotimo a single serving site?
17:47 zengargoyle cut-n-paste
17:47 vendethiel TimToady: symbolhound :-)
17:48 [Coke] hang it off perl6.org somewhere, with all the (optional) unicode chars you might have to type, sure.
17:48 TimToady be sure to put the phrase "funny french quotes" :)
17:48 geekosaur how do you type those quotes to find out how to type them?
17:48 geekosaur :p
17:48 colomon_ geekosaur: first, travel to Paris...
17:49 timotimo what's a ¢?
17:49 pdcawley joined #perl6
17:49 TimToady takes two of 'em to have an opinion
17:49 zengargoyle i moderated a japanese language learning forum a long time ago and the whole "How do I type things not on my keyboard" question was sorta complicated to answer.
17:50 [Coke] timotimo: american cent sign. 100¢ = 1 USD
17:50 timotimo [Coke]: wasn't looking for a serious answer
17:50 vendethiel on windows, it's especially hard :(
17:51 timotimo vendethiel: no, on windows you have alt+numbers
17:51 TimToady yeah, windows doesn't make cents
17:51 vendethiel exactly why it's hard.
17:51 vendethiel I remember the combinations for é, è, ï ... that's a terrible failure
17:51 isBEKaml yeah, windows doesn't make sense.
17:51 denis_boyun joined #perl6
17:51 timotimo quite the contrary
17:52 timotimo windows has brought loads and loads of people closer to the topic of computing
17:52 timotimo that is a sensible thing to do
17:52 vendethiel ... and is totally irrelevant to typing not-on-my-keyboard characters ?
17:52 timotimo before windows, people were entering their machine code by flipping switches and hitting the "store byte and advance" button
17:52 lue joined #perl6
17:52 zengargoyle i'm hoping things have gotten better with Win7+
17:52 jnthn Every other Windows is non-terrible.
17:52 timotimo zengargoyle: as always, skip every second one
17:52 jnthn 8 is a terrible one.
17:53 isBEKaml jnthn: yeah, before that it was vista
17:53 * vendethiel doesn't think there's any difference between 8 and 7 ...
17:53 jnthn Right.
17:53 isBEKaml and Me before it.
17:53 jnthn Me sucked.
17:53 vendethiel W Millenium!
17:54 isBEKaml jnthn: there were 2 releases that flopped successively. '98 and 'Me.
17:54 timotimo jnthn: it should be "I sucked", though
17:54 * TimToady is glad they haven't named an element Millenium...
17:54 isBEKaml jnthn: '95 and ten years later, it was XP.
17:55 TimToady XP gave everyone experience points
17:55 [Coke] I have that will smith album. it's pretty good.
17:55 zengargoyle i'm happy to have pretty much never used Windows much at all
17:56 zengargoyle but sad that it's a total Mystery OS to me
17:59 * colomon_ hated Vista so much he will probably not be coming back to Windows for a long, long time.
18:00 geekosaur win7 was actually a pretty good OS
18:00 timotimo colomon_: to be fair, win7 is pretty solid
18:00 geekosaur win8, the less said, the better
18:00 isBEKaml zengargoyle: Don't fret too much. If you read Neal Stephenson's "In the beginning was the command line", I'm sure much of it will make sense. :-)
18:00 PerlJam But Perl 6 is awesome!
18:00 PerlJam :-)
18:01 zengargoyle oh for sure.  my path has been Apple II, Amiga, Solaris, Linux
18:02 geekosaur (in win8.1 you can at least partially deactivate metro)
18:02 * vendethiel sometimes doesn't understand that hate for vista
18:02 vendethiel might be because I got it pretty late, with one or two service packs, but it never crashed on me ..
18:02 geekosaur that would be why
18:02 geekosaur vista sp2 was fairly solid
18:02 geekosaur earlier versions, forget it
18:03 TimToady my wife has been running Vista for a long time, and it never gave her any trouble as a user
18:03 timotimo my cousin's computer bluescreened when we installed a driver on it ...
18:03 timotimo i laughed pretty hard
18:05 colomon_ TimToady: my Vista complaints were as a programmer.  I think my final straw was the fact that "patch" didn't work anymore.
18:06 [Sno] joined #perl6
18:06 TimToady nobody in their right mind does *programming* on Windows... <whistles>
18:07 * vendethiel sighs
18:07 vendethiel which reminds me -- farewell, 2014.03-parrot :D !
18:07 TimToady :D
18:08 isBEKaml TimToady: that Petzold book - it still sells. :D
18:08 isBEKaml TimToady: First it was "Programming Windows" with C++ and then it was with C#.
18:09 TimToady .oO("it's not that the bear dances well, but that it dances at all")
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18:32 Woodi_ evening everyones :)
18:33 Woodi_ I'm a bit missing new R*... is one planned soon or maybe getting monthly R is new way to go ?
18:37 atroxaper joined #perl6
18:37 [Coke] R* is not guaranteed every month.
18:37 [Coke] though we do try.
18:38 dalek perl6-roast-data: ab8bc02 | coke++ | / (5 files):
18:38 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
18:38 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/ab8bc023ea
18:38 isBEKaml I don't recall R* ever being monthly - although, it was announced to be a semi-annual/annual thing.
18:44 betterworld m: my $x = set(); $x (|)= [2014]
18:44 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/o6cg8jCBCDâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/o6cg8jCBCD:1â�¤------> [32mmy $x = set(); $x [33mâ��[31m(|)= [2014][0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfixâ�¤        infix stopperâ�¤        infix…»
18:44 betterworld should this work?
18:44 FROGGS m: my $x = set(); $x (|=) [2014]
18:44 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/izJENSejSIâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/izJENSejSI:1â�¤------> [32mmy $x = set(); $x [33mâ��[31m(|=) [2014][0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfixâ�¤        infix stopperâ�¤        infix…»
18:45 FROGGS std: my $x = set(); $x (|)= [2014]
18:45 camelia std 0f2049c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Confused at /tmp/oKalT3UYuy line 1:â�¤------> [32mmy $x = set(); $x [33mâ��[31m(|)= [2014][0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤ feed_separatorâ�¤ infix or meta-infixâ�¤    infixed functionâ�¤       statement modifier loopâ�¤Parse failedâ�¤FAI…»
18:45 FROGGS std: my $x = set(); $x (|=) [2014]
18:45 camelia std 0f2049c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Confused at /tmp/QZgII15ldU line 1:â�¤------> [32mmy $x = set(); $x [33mâ��[31m(|=) [2014][0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤ feed_separatorâ�¤ infix or meta-infixâ�¤    infixed functionâ�¤       statement modifier loopâ�¤Parse failedâ�¤FAI…»
18:45 FROGGS betterworld: does not look like
18:45 FROGGS I'd at least expect that std can parse it...
18:45 FROGGS std: my $x = set(); $x (&)= [2014]
18:45 camelia std 0f2049c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Confused at /tmp/0TTj5Gm2MD line 1:â�¤------> [32mmy $x = set(); $x [33mâ��[31m(&)= [2014][0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤ feed_separatorâ�¤ infix or meta-infixâ�¤    infixed functionâ�¤       statement modifier loopâ�¤Parse failedâ�¤FAI…»
18:47 betterworld would be neat.
18:50 FROGGS .u union
18:50 yoleaux U+222A UNION [Sm] (∪)
18:50 masak I don't see offhand why that oughtn't work.
18:50 FROGGS m: my $x = set(); $x ∪= [2014]
18:50 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/ZTako5zctCâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/ZTako5zctC:1â�¤------> [32mmy $x = set(); $x [33mâ��[31m∪= [2014][0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfixâ�¤        infix stopperâ�¤        infix…»
18:50 [Coke] anyway, if you want at least monthly updates, it's worth checking out the compiler releases and doing a panda update every month. You could go crazy and switch to github and install nom branch whenever, but that may be too much work. (or you can just ping us, and someone will do a release sooner than later.)
18:50 FROGGS m: my $x = set(); $x ∪ [2014]
18:50 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: ( no output )
18:51 FROGGS std: my $x = set(); $x ∪= [2014]
18:51 camelia std 0f2049c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Confused at /tmp/LhncuwjFCG line 1:â�¤------> [32mmy $x = set(); $x [33mâ��[31m∪= [2014][0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤   feed_separatorâ�¤ infix or meta-infixâ�¤    infixed functionâ�¤       statement modifier loopâ�¤Parse failedâ�¤FAI…»
18:51 FROGGS TimToady: ---^ ?
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18:54 TimToady STD doesn't know the set operators yet
18:54 TimToady and you can't modify a set because it's immutable
18:54 masak um, but isn't that just modifying a container?
18:55 jnthn You'd be putting a new resulting set into the contariner there, though...
18:55 FROGGS ohh, that's set, err, sad
18:55 TimToady yes, we could fake it with the container, as we do with strings
18:55 FROGGS I always that the ??= works with every infix
18:55 FROGGS thought*
18:56 TimToady rakudo doesn't parse op= properly yet
18:56 masak TimToady: and numbers. += doesn't modify the original number either.
18:56 masak TimToady: in fact, I can't think of any op= that goes in and destroys the original value.
18:57 pecastro joined #perl6
18:57 * TimToady agrees it should work in this case
18:58 betterworld I think the uppercase Set is mutuble, but that doesn't work either with (|)=
18:59 TimToady p6: my @a = 1,2,3; @a [X*]= 4; say @a
18:59 camelia rakudo-jvm 25c511: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
18:59 camelia ..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«4 8 12␤»
18:59 camelia ..rakudo-{parrot,moar} 25c511: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile�Preceding context expects a term, but found infix = instead�at /tmp/tmpfile:1�------> [32mmy @a = 1,2,3; @a [X*]=[33m�[31m 4; say @a[0m�»
18:59 TimToady niecza++
19:00 TimToady Set is not mutable either; set() is just Set.new in disguise
19:00 jnthn Rakudo's parsing for infix= looks very much like STDs, so I@m not sure what's going on.
19:00 jnthn oh, wait...not quite
19:00 TimToady std: my @a = 1,2,3; @a [X*]= 4; say @a
19:00 camelia std 0f2049c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 126m␤»
19:01 jnthn I can see why the latter doesn't work
19:01 jnthn I can't see why the set ones don't.
19:02 jnthn STD has an awful extensibility-killing hack, alas...
19:02 jnthn [ <?before '='> <?{ $infix = $<infix>; }> <infix_postfix_meta_operator($infix)>
19:02 jnthn So infix postfix meta-operators can only start with = :P
19:02 TimToady yes, '=' is a bit of a special case
19:02 jnthn OK, we're missing that special-casing in Rakudo...what is actually demanding the before, and not letting it fall out of LTM?
19:03 jnthn oh, the need for the block maybe...
19:03 TimToady I don't remember why, offhand
19:03 jnthn Anyways, seems our infixish could do with a little re-org...
19:06 TimToady could've been some limitation of the P5 support for doing fancy stuff like passing the infix match to the subrule
19:07 TimToady or maybe it was somehow related to making sure that the LTM didn't suffer an exponential explosion somewhere
19:07 TimToady as it is, that one case pretty much doubles the number of infixes
19:08 TimToady if you try to include the = in the LTM, which I don't think it tries to anymore
19:08 TimToady so it might be a fossil
19:09 zengargoyle i sorta thought SetHash was the mutable version of Set
19:09 jnthn k
19:09 TimToady zengargoyle: it is
19:09 jnthn Still got $dayjob things to tend to for now, so can't look at it for the moment.
19:09 TimToady you can do $set<foo> = True if $set is a SetHash, but not if it's a Set
19:10 hoelzro let's say I have a role that uses some helper classes, and now I want to expose those classes for extension to the outside world.  My::Role::Inner doesn't seem to work; should it? Or should I just convert the whole thing into a module?
19:11 TimToady and the SetHash could implement the op= directly, instead of relying on a container
19:11 jnthn hoelzro: You can't sanely put non-lexical things inside of a role, due to the genericity of a role.
19:11 TimToady much less GC load to avoid creating new set objects continually
19:11 hoelzro jnthn: ah, ok
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19:12 jnthn hoelzro: We should probably make it an error to do so.
19:12 jnthn Rather than them just vanish into the ether...
19:12 hoelzro heh
19:12 jnthn Even then it's all rather suspect to nest things inside the role.
19:12 hoelzro I'm beginning to see that
19:12 hoelzro =)
19:12 jnthn Because we don't make all the inner things generic either.
19:12 TimToady we work very hard to keep our intentional genericity separate from our accidental genericity in p6
19:13 jnthn So much can go wrong.
19:13 TimToady p5 was so accidentially generic
19:13 hoelzro I found some interesting behavior where it worked fine when the methods were in the "default" consumer class of a role, but when I moved the methods into the role, my script broke
19:13 hoelzro in an unpredictable way
19:14 hoelzro and although I will probably move past this design and this sort of thing should be discouraged, I was thinking on mentioning it as a possible rakudo bug
19:14 jnthn Thing is, the classes inside the role will end up closing over a single copy of the type variable - the latest one...
19:14 jnthn And any other role params.
19:15 hoelzro oh, that's interesting
19:15 jnthn Which is not a semantic I like.
19:15 hoelzro now, if my outer role is not parameterized...should it matter?
19:15 jnthn Well, all roles are parameterized
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19:15 TimToady the apocalpyses wanted Forests of Frogs, but we never quite got there, since it entails virtual class names
19:15 jnthn They all get an implicit first parameter which is ::?CLASS
19:16 jnthn Which is used for the type of the invocant.
19:16 hoelzro oh, duh
19:16 jnthn Otherwise, composing a role into a few classes and expecting multi-dispatch to do the right thing wouldn't work out well
19:16 jnthn (That was actually broken in an earlier impl of roles, 4 years ago.)
19:16 hoelzro well, lemme see if I can code up a small example
19:17 hoelzro my module has gotten quite big
19:19 hoelzro jnthn: if you're curious: https://gist.github.com/hoelzro/e03fc6ab275563643d65
19:19 hoelzro don't ask me what madness started this =)
19:20 hoelzro I'll be doing some refactoring after work to fix this
19:20 hoelzro when you move BUILD into DefaultOptionCanonicalizer, it works fine
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19:55 [Coke] colomon_: ping
19:55 colomon_ [Coke]: pochi
19:55 colomon_ er, pong
19:55 [Coke] mmhehe
19:55 * colomon_ is not sure how that happened
19:55 [Coke] colomon_: see S32-list/sort.t - there's a commented out test there with your name on it. If that's an invalid test, can we just remove it?
19:55 [Coke] guesses you typed P O TAB
19:56 colomon_ probably
19:56 colomon_ leftover text editor (TextMate) impulses, cause surely someone already type pong here, right?
19:57 [Coke] in fact, looks like that whole block might be wonky.
19:58 [Coke] ah, no, just the commented out stuff and the _2 class.
19:58 [Coke] removing it.
19:58 colomon_ I dunno.
19:58 colomon_ it's all on the weird side
19:59 colomon_ For sure defining multi sub cmp(RT71258_2 $a, RT71258_2 $b) shouldn't affect sort
20:00 dalek roast: 89d6c1b | coke++ | S32-list/sort.t:
20:00 dalek roast: Remove commented out invalid test/unused class
20:00 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/89d6c1bbed
20:00 [Coke] colomon++
20:01 colomon_ on the flip side, it would be nice  if multi sub infix:<cmp> *did* affect sort.  but it doesn't, does it?
20:01 lue .tell atroxaper assuming L<foo> is a synonym for L<doc:foo> (S26 doesn't say anything about this explicitly), I could see a case for L<C<foo>> being equivalent to L<doc:foo> rather than L<doc:C<foo>>. However, I'd also say L<C<foo>> is wrong, and you deserve whatever broken output results :) You really should do either C<L<foo>> or L<C<foo>|foo>
20:01 yoleaux lue: I'll pass your message to atroxaper.
20:02 carlin there's an irssi script that lets you do tab-completion on words using /usr/share/dict/words
20:03 [Coke] r: my %h; $line = $?LINE; %h = { a => 1 }; %h = { b => 2 };
20:03 * lue would argue that links should be treated as verbatim even when there's no alternate presentation present.
20:03 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 25c511: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Variable '$line' is not declaredâ�¤at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤------> [32mmy %h; $line[33mâ��[31m = $?LINE; %h = { a => 1 }; %h = { b => [0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        pos…»
20:03 [Coke] r: my %h; %h = { a => 1 }; %h = { b => 2 };
20:03 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 25c511: OUTPUT«Saw 1 call to deprecated code during execution.␤================================================================================␤%h = { ... } called at:␤  /tmp/tmpfile, line 1␤Please use %h = ... instead.␤----------------------------…»
20:04 skids joined #perl6
20:05 [Coke] 6
20:08 rindolf Hi all.
20:08 PerlJam greetings rindolf.  How are you this fine day?
20:08 rindolf TimToady: are you on Reddit? If not - you should be.
20:08 rindolf PerlJam: I'm fine - philosophical.
20:09 rindolf PerlJam: I socialised with some dog owners/etc. today.
20:09 hoverboard fwilson suck it
20:09 rindolf A 12 years old boy enjoyed my new Emma Watson factoid.
20:09 timotimo what was that?
20:09 hoverboard ezech_ centos
20:10 TimToady hoverboard: you seem to be on the wrong channel
20:11 rindolf PerlJam: are you on reddit?
20:11 rindolf TimToady: meow!
20:12 hoverboard TimToady, apologies, was trying /amsg without knowing what it did
20:13 TimToady hugme: hug hoverboard
20:13 * hugme hugs hoverboard
20:13 PerlJam rindolf: I have gotten on reddit.  I'm not on it right now.
20:13 hoverboard ):
20:14 rindolf PerlJam: yes, I meant if you have an active reddit account.
20:14 PerlJam aye.  Idon't reddit much though
20:14 PerlJam It turns out that I'm not very social :)
20:14 * TimToady needs to be on writit, not reddit
20:14 rindolf PerlJam: heh, not true.
20:14 rindolf TimToady: heh.
20:15 TimToady or maybe wrottit
20:15 dalek rakudo/nom: c55942f | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/CompUnitRepo/Local/File.pm:
20:15 dalek rakudo/nom: Make CURL::File faster
20:15 dalek rakudo/nom:
20:15 dalek rakudo/nom: This gets us back the time we lost in the spectest recently.  Part of the
20:15 dalek rakudo/nom: speedup is attained by only going through the directory of the CompUnitRepo
20:15 dalek rakudo/nom: only once: this behaviour may need tweaking in certain situations.
20:15 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c55942ff89
20:16 rindolf TimToady: reminds me of https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/fc-solve-discuss/conversations/messages/1301
20:16 rindolf TimToady: reddit is kinda like a new (and in most respects - better) Usenet
20:17 rindolf TimToady: Usenet has become unusable now.
20:17 rindolf It was good up to the end of Web 1.0 or so.
20:18 * [Coke] reads http://blogs.perl.org/users/chad_exodist_granum/2014/07/changes-to-testbuildermoresimple-incoming.html and wonders if we have any fallout.
20:18 rindolf TimToady: you should totally do an "I am Larry Wall, the creator of patch, rn, perl and Perl - ask me anything."
20:22 FROGGS jnthn: I think I'll know what block triggers the parrot fail in the next hours...
20:23 rindolf Arguably both patch and rn alone were more important than perl and Perl.
20:23 [Coke] I think we're missing a dep in the moarvm rakudo build.
20:23 [Coke] (with -j9, it tries to copy perl6-m into place before the setting is built.
20:23 rindolf TimToady: I'd love to see you on ##philosophy too.
20:24 TimToady rindolf: self-promotion is not really very high on my todo list these days, nor is writing my memoirs...
20:24 FROGGS [Coke]: ahh, that kind of dep
20:25 dalek roast: ccc4e24 | coke++ | S02-types/deprecations.t:
20:25 dalek roast: Remove tests for old version of Order
20:25 dalek roast:
20:25 dalek roast: There was never a "released" perl6 spec for this, so we don't have to
20:25 dalek roast: test/support the old values - they've already been removed from rakudo.
20:25 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/ccc4e242cb
20:25 rindolf And maybe it's me, but I think Perl 6 was good while it lasted and we should now rethink our strategy. It's far too perfectionist and 2nd system effect.
20:25 erkan joined #perl6
20:25 zengargoyle i think there are already plenty of TimToady answering questions and rambling alredy on YouTube. :P
20:25 TimToady rindolf: it's just you :P
20:25 rindolf TimToady: OK, you can still be on reddit, and answer questions or post interesting stuff.
20:26 rindolf TimToady: I kinda have the Cassandra syndrome.
20:26 [Coke] rindolf: I imagine you'll not get a lot of traction with that train of thought unless you have specific ideas about what else to do besides work on Perl 6.
20:26 FROGGS rindolf: it really is just you :o)
20:26 TimToady every time I answer a question on reddit, I forget a Japanese verb :)
20:26 rindolf TimToady: or http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/fortunes/show.cgi?id=same-ideas-as-everybody-else
20:26 rindolf TimToady: heh, believe in yourself.
20:27 TimToady I'd rather believe in using the time I have left usefully.
20:27 rindolf TimToady: "every time you masturbate god kills a kitten", right?
20:27 rindolf TimToady: ah, you can become rich easily enough.
20:27 rindolf And then have MOAR time.
20:27 rindolf TimToady: charge people for public speeches.
20:28 * lizmat wonders about the future of rindolf
20:28 beastd joined #perl6
20:28 * TimToady is not the least bit interested in making a lot of money
20:28 rindolf TimToady: or collect donations after that - stand-up philosophy.
20:28 rindolf TimToady: don't you want more time?
20:28 FROGGS rindolf: you can't buy time basically
20:28 rindolf lizmat: well, tomorrow i may get hit by a bus.
20:28 TimToady money and time are only slightly interfungible
20:28 rindolf FROGGS: well, time >>> money.
20:29 FROGGS rindolf: only sort of
20:29 [Coke] multi-dim arrays are NYI, correct?
20:29 rindolf I have a lot of time because i'm happily unemployed, but i need money.
20:29 lizmat [Coke]: yes
20:29 rindolf My parents mostly support me.
20:29 TimToady my most precious resource is my energy, and I have only so much of that to spend each day
20:29 rindolf and also national insurance.
20:29 rindolf TimToady: I have more and more energy.
20:29 rindolf And i'm 37.
20:29 rindolf And don't exercise a lot.
20:30 PerlJam rindolf: this isn't a self-help group ;)
20:30 * TimToady wanders off to get more energy from lunch...
20:30 dalek roast: ef44f78 | coke++ | S02-types/array.t:
20:30 dalek roast: use standard "NYI" text
20:30 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/ef44f78260
20:30 lizmat TimToady++  rindolf--
20:30 rindolf TimToady: om nom nom.
20:30 rindolf lizmat: :-)
20:30 rindolf lizmat++ # Balance in the force.
20:31 rindolf lizmat: maybe TimToady should work half-time.
20:31 PerlJam lizmat++ TimToady++ (because there still isn't enough karma for some people)
20:31 FROGGS rindolf: perhaps it is better to end that discussion
20:31 rindolf PerlJam++
20:31 rindolf FROGGS: sure, sorry.
20:31 * lizmat is reminded of Jar Jar Binks
20:31 rindolf IS there a #TimToady ?
20:32 rindolf So ... how's the weather?
20:32 lizmat should there be a #rindolf ?
20:32 FROGGS rindolf: I'm not sure he'd enjoy that
20:32 lizmat news at eleven
20:32 rindolf lizmat: it was sometimes created ad-hoc.
20:32 rindolf lizmat: there's #perlcafe and stuff.
20:32 rindolf Everyone is welcome.
20:32 [Coke] r: our sub eval_born { 5 }; OUR::eval_born()
20:32 rindolf Everyone is welcome to join #perlcafe .
20:32 camelia rakudo-jvm 25c511: OUTPUT«No such method 'Any' for invocant of type 'Parcel'␤  in any  at gen/jvm/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1661␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
20:32 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 25c511: OUTPUT«No such method 'Any' for invocant of type 'Parcel'␤  in any  at gen/parrot/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1673␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
20:32 camelia ..rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«Cannot find method 'Any'␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
20:33 * lizmat decides to forget Jar Jar Binks
20:33 * rindolf kinda hates speaking in riddles.
20:33 rindolf lizmat: who can forget him?He's awesome.
20:33 * jnthn kinda hates rindolf speaking...
20:34 rindolf lizmat: http://www.debunking911.com/questions.htm - see this - he's running for Senate.
20:34 rindolf jnthn: sorry.
20:34 [Coke] r: say &OUR::bar() # RT #120930
20:34 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=120930
20:34 camelia rakudo-jvm 25c511: OUTPUT«No such method 'Any' for invocant of type 'Parcel'␤  in any  at gen/jvm/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1661␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
20:34 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 25c511: OUTPUT«No such method 'Any' for invocant of type 'Parcel'␤  in any  at gen/parrot/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1673␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
20:34 camelia ..rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«Cannot find method 'Any'␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
20:34 rindolf jnthn: anytihng you're working on?
20:35 FROGGS m: our sub eval_born { 5 }; say OUR::
20:35 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«("\&eval_born" => sub eval_born () { #`(Sub|140451773726160) ... }).hash␤»
20:35 skids joined #perl6
20:35 FROGGS m: our sub eval_born { 5 }; say OUR::eval_born
20:35 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
20:35 FROGGS m: our sub eval_born { 5 }; say OUR::eval_born()
20:35 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«Cannot find method 'Any'␤  in block  at /tmp/u6UhQiyEs7:1␤␤»
20:35 FROGGS m: our sub eval_born { 5 }; say OUR::<&eval_born()>
20:35 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
20:35 FROGGS m: our sub eval_born { 5 }; say &OUR::eval_born()
20:35 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«5␤»
20:36 rindolf ok , maybe I Should leave and chat to TimToady on PM.
20:36 PerlJam rindolf: or let him eat his lunch in peace?
20:36 [Coke] use Test; eval_lives_ok 'our sub eval_born { 5 }', 'can define a sub in eval'; is &OUR::eval_born(), 5
20:36 rindolf Carpe Diem! "He who saves one soul has saved the world entire" -- the JEwish Oral Torah.
20:37 [Coke] r: use Test; eval_lives_ok 'our sub eval_born { 5 }', 'can define a sub in eval'; is &OUR::eval_born(), 5
20:37 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«ok 1 - can define a sub in eval␤Cannot find method 'Any'␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
20:37 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 25c511: OUTPUT«ok 1 - can define a sub in eval␤No such method 'Any' for invocant of type 'Parcel'␤  in any  at gen/jvm/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1661␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
20:37 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 25c511: OUTPUT«ok 1 - can define a sub in eval␤No such method 'Any' for invocant of type 'Parcel'␤  in any  at gen/parrot/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1673␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
20:37 rindolf PerlJam: sure, we'll talk when he returns.
20:37 rindolf PerlJam: I'm still here for the time being.
20:38 araujo joined #perl6
20:38 araujo joined #perl6
20:38 [Coke] m: EVAL "our sub eval_born {5}"; eval_born.say
20:38 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/or5aRkpvmWâ�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    eval_born used at line 1â�¤â�¤Â»
20:38 [Coke] m: EVAL "our sub eval_born {5}"; eval_born().say
20:38 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/ZJ_7FnJ1fPâ�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    eval_born used at line 1â�¤â�¤Â»
20:39 [Coke] so, this is related to the LTA message, but not quite the same.
20:39 FROGGS [Coke]: you should use single quotes for one thing
20:40 jnthn It doesn't actually get as far as the eval
20:40 jnthn *EVAL
20:40 [Coke] m: EVAL 'our sub eval_born {5}'; eval_born().say
20:40 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/yShBdJhkAyâ�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    eval_born used at line 1â�¤â�¤Â»
20:40 FROGGS m: EVAL 'our sub eval_born {5}'; &::('eval_born)().say
20:40 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/Lct11FY1Lrâ�¤Unable to parse expression in single quotes; couldn't find final "'" â�¤at /tmp/Lct11FY1Lr:1â�¤------> [32mub eval_born {5}'; &::('eval_born)().say[33mâ��[31m<EOL>[0mâ�¤    expectin…»
20:40 [Coke] jnthn: looking at S02-names/our.t
20:40 FROGGS m: EVAL 'our sub eval_born {5}'; &::('eval_born')().say
20:40 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«5␤»
20:41 [Coke] first test thinks you can do OUR::Eval_born() after that EVAL
20:41 FROGGS [Coke]: only at runtime
20:41 FROGGS m: EVAL 'our sub eval_born {5}'; &::('OUR::eval_born')().say
20:41 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«5␤»
20:41 [Coke] shall I update the test to use &:: ?
20:42 FROGGS either that or do not use EVAL
20:42 [Coke] part of the point is to use EVAL.
20:43 [Coke] "call to eval-born our sub via OUR works"
20:43 FROGGS yeah, then you have to invoke it indirectly...
20:43 FROGGS err
20:43 FROGGS OUR:: is still compile time
20:43 jnthn m: EVAL 'our sub eval_born {5}'; say OUR::eval_born()
20:43 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«Cannot find method 'Any'␤  in block  at /tmp/dBoipup99e:1␤␤»
20:43 jnthn ugh
20:44 jnthn That *is* an LTA error.
20:44 FROGGS or should OUR:: be runtime?
20:44 [Coke] there is already a ticket for the LTA error.
20:44 jnthn OK
20:44 [Coke] https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=120930
20:44 jnthn Sorry, only half able to follow
20:44 rindolf Bye all, this channel has too low Signal to noise ratio.
20:44 rindolf left #perl6
20:44 FROGGS O.o
20:44 [Coke] yah, shame we talk so much about getting perl 6 done.
20:45 [Coke] <eyeroll>
20:45 lizmat *phew*
20:45 FROGGS ahh
20:45 FROGGS m: EVAL 'our sub eval_born {5}'; say &OUR::eval_born()
20:45 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«5␤»
20:45 FROGGS now I get it
20:45 jnthn oh!
20:45 jnthn Well, at least that works, yes...
20:45 [Coke] odd.
20:46 FROGGS 5, yeah :o)
20:46 jnthn I think it's compiling th eother one into a coercion.
20:46 masak does rindolf have a known problem of some kind? just curious.
20:46 [Coke] m: use Test; eval_lives_ok 'our sub eval_born {5}' ; is &OUR::eval_born(), 5
20:46 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«ok 1 - ␤Cannot find method 'Any'␤  in block  at /tmp/wxx1hRFDi2:1␤␤»
20:46 FROGGS (roughly five steps until I know what explodes in perl6-p)
20:46 [Coke] ^^ why does that work in FROGG's standalone, but not in the testS?
20:47 FROGGS [Coke]: the test is ok
20:47 FROGGS but there is no desription
20:47 FROGGS description, even
20:47 FROGGS m: use Test; eval_lives_ok 'our sub eval_born {5}' ; is &OUR::eval_born(), 5, 'heureka'
20:47 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«ok 1 - ␤Cannot find method 'Any'␤  in block  at /tmp/PsHy4IGHVR:1␤␤»
20:47 [Coke] m: use Test; eval_lives_ok 'our sub eval_born {5}', "two" ; is &OUR::eval_born(), 5, "two"
20:47 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«ok 1 - two␤Cannot find method 'Any'␤  in block  at /tmp/2XqdNmncZ6:1␤␤»
20:47 FROGGS ummm
20:47 [Coke] m: use Test; eval_lives_ok 'our sub eval_born {5}', "er, one" ; is &OUR::eval_born(), 5, "two"
20:47 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«ok 1 - er, one␤Cannot find method 'Any'␤  in block  at /tmp/aRXOIGg6GR:1␤␤»
20:48 [Coke] ^^ nope.
20:48 FROGGS m: EVAL 'our sub eval_born {5}'; say &OUR::eval_born() == 5
20:48 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«True␤»
20:48 lizmat masak: http://www.shlomifish.org/meta/FAQ/#mental_illness
20:48 masak lizmat: thank you, that was exactly what I was looking for.
20:48 PerlJam lizmat++ I hadn't realized rindolf put that stuff in a FAQ
20:50 [Coke] m: use Test; EVAL 'our sub eval_born {5}'; is &OUR::eval_born(), 5
20:50 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«ok 1 - ␤»
20:50 [Coke] m: use Test; eval_lives_ok 'our sub eval_born {5}'; is &OUR::eval_born(), 5
20:50 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«ok 1 - ␤Cannot find method 'Any'␤  in block  at /tmp/6PoLkNCcU7:1␤␤»
20:50 [Coke] so, EVAL works, but eval_lives_ok barfs it?
20:51 FROGGS [Coke]: I know it...
20:51 FROGGS eval_lives_ok introduces a new scope
20:51 [Coke] so, have to rewrite that test to use try EVAL ?
20:52 jnthn Well, this is about our scoping, and eval_lives_ok is in the Test module
20:52 [Coke] (and then an OK if no $!, with a note about why?
20:53 [Coke] jnthn: would you say the fix is to change eval_lives_ok?
20:54 jnthn tbh, I'd probably just lives_ok { EVAL '...' }
20:54 [Coke] danke.
20:55 FOAD joined #perl6
20:58 dalek roast: 188a225 | coke++ | S02-names/our.t:
20:58 dalek roast: Avoid introducing extra scope; hides our sub
20:58 dalek roast: use & to invoke sub.
20:58 dalek roast:
20:58 dalek roast: jnthn++ FROGGS++
20:58 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/188a22536b
20:58 denis_boyun_ joined #perl6
20:59 lizmat FROGGS: in CompUnitRepo there is a method "files"
20:59 FROGGS lizmat: yes
20:59 [Coke] there, only 991 rakudo directives that don't have an RT or a NYI associated with them. :|
20:59 lizmat it seems to be the same as candidates
20:59 lizmat I'm trying to grok what you meant by it
20:59 lizmat is this some attempt at allowing %?RESOURCE ?
21:00 FROGGS lizmat: candidates is about namespaces, .files is about resources
21:00 FROGGS resources also mean binaries btw
21:00 FROGGS because you query for CUR.files('bin/prove')
21:01 lizmat is that being done anywhere yet ?
21:01 FROGGS and that already works, and is used by the wrappers that are put in the bin folder
21:01 [Coke] m: say Junction; say junction;
21:01 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/lhACmcY4tXâ�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    junction used at line 1â�¤â�¤Â»
21:01 [Coke] m: say Junction;
21:01 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«(Junction)␤»
21:01 FROGGS lizmat: in case you would install a binary into an inst://, yes
21:02 lizmat maybe we should spec a %?BIN then ?
21:02 FROGGS lizmat: would that help?
21:02 lizmat that would map to 'bin' in the distribution
21:03 lizmat well, we need to have the same filename mangling properties as we do on resourced and modules
21:03 lizmat *resources
21:03 FROGGS hmmm no, not really
21:04 FROGGS when you create a dist that provide binary scripts, then these must be latin1, otherwise many ppl won't be able to execute them
21:04 timotimo ... binary scripts ... in latin1?
21:04 lizmat the names
21:04 FROGGS timotimo: the name you **** :P
21:05 FROGGS *g*
21:05 lizmat I'm not sure that's a valid assumption or a needed one
21:05 lizmat but your point of not needing to mangle the filename is clear
21:05 timotimo ah, now i know what you mean
21:05 FROGGS lizmat: well, we can/must mangle it, sure
21:06 lizmat but then how would one know the name to type in a CLI ?
21:08 FROGGS but the authors must also keep in mind that a punycode encoded filename of a script is not ideal
21:08 timotimo i'm not sure if i asked this before, but do we have something like "give me the folder where my stuff is stored" where stuff refers to ... stuff
21:08 timotimo like icons/pictures, sound files, assets of that kind
21:08 FROGGS the author must name it sanely, that's the point
21:08 timotimo static files for a web site
21:08 timotimo stuff like that
21:08 lizmat timotimo: %?RESOURCE
21:08 FROGGS timotimo: I think so, yes
21:08 timotimo oh, that's neat
21:08 timotimo how customizable is that? can a distro (debian/ubuntu/fedora) say "the assets have to go into this folder, please" and it'll work?
21:08 lizmat S22:366 and S22:633
21:08 timotimo synopsebot!
21:08 Mouq atroxaper: I agree that L<C<boom>> should really DWIM
21:08 timotimo do you know "physicsfs"?
21:08 FROGGS timotimo: depends in what comp unit repo you install to
21:08 synopsebot Link: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S22.html#line_366
21:08 timotimo you can have folders and zipfiles and stuff and "layer" them over each other
21:08 lizmat timotimo: I'm still in 2 minds about that
21:08 timotimo so that one has a higher priority than the other and you can make patches and mods that way
21:09 lizmat on the one hand, I would like to see one "index" in each CURL::Installation that is read once and can be inspected at compile/run time
21:09 lizmat but that sort of works against package distributors
21:09 timotimo hmm. it's also kinda not so awesome that you have to supply the paths to all the files
21:09 lizmat so I was thinking maybe we need a CURL::RPM
21:10 lizmat that would have an "index" for each installed module
21:10 FROGGS lizmat: that's not against packagers I think... the vendor provides a CUR managed by apt for example, but I as a user install into a CUR in my home
21:10 FROGGS that's how I see things
21:10 FROGGS or I install into site, which is still separate from the vendor one
21:10 lizmat yes, but a vendor wants to be able to uninstalle and update
21:11 lizmat this is not about where things get installed, but *how*
21:11 FROGGS lizmat: sure, the vendor can do that with the vendor repo
21:11 lizmat and potentially create their own module for that, indeed
21:11 FROGGS lizmat: yes, the vendor can provide its own CUR class
21:12 lizmat still it would be nice if vendors would not have to do that and be able to use CURL::Installation
21:12 lizmat even if that is in a separate dir
21:12 Mouq .tell atroxaper https://github.com/perl6/Pod-To-HTML/commit/f70c57d29a4301b104f115a659417f07f013a947
21:12 yoleaux Mouq: I'll pass your message to atroxaper.
21:12 FROGGS yes, we'll see when we are there and talk to ppl like [Sno]++ or dod++
21:12 lizmat s/even/but/
21:12 denis_boyun joined #perl6
21:13 lizmat I discussed this a lot with [Sno] and todd rinaldo
21:13 FROGGS lizmat: they need to play with it I think
21:13 lizmat indeed, but first I need to make something for them to play with  :-)
21:16 FROGGS I think there is still a regression in panda due to @*INC refactorings...
21:16 lizmat please let me know what I broke
21:17 FROGGS I think there was something about the ordering of lib dirs... which is kinda tricky in panda rebootstrap process
21:17 timotimo *sigh*
21:17 FROGGS I have to dig again into that, it is hard to understand and thus hard to explain
21:17 treehug88 joined #perl6
21:18 lizmat FROGGS: also I'm still not sure whether it makes sense to have multiiple CUR objects in a single @*INC entry
21:18 lizmat it's going to make it hard to explain
21:18 FROGGS okay... at least I found the block in rakudo that triggers the perl6-p blowup
21:19 lizmat in my view the first CUR in @*INC that returns any candidate, is the one that will be loaded
21:19 FROGGS lizmat: we need a way to treat a bunch of CURs equally, so we need a way of grouping
21:19 lizmat (if there is only 1, if there are more than 1, then it will die telling it can't disambiguate)
21:19 lizmat why do we need that ?
21:19 FROGGS lizmat: then we don't need CUR at all and can switch back to the P5 way
21:20 lizmat huh?
21:20 raiph joined #perl6
21:20 lizmat could you elaborate (not necessarily now)
21:20 denis_boyun joined #perl6
21:21 FROGGS one major problem of the P5 way is that you get the first dist found in @INC, whether there is a *better* dist in dirs after that
21:22 FROGGS so you have to "uninstall" stuff from your home or site when you want the better one from vendor or perl
21:22 lizmat no, you need to be more specific in your -use- statement
21:22 dmol joined #perl6
21:23 FROGGS and there is no way of telling: I have ten CURs, five on my disk, three in the web and two on another box, and I want to pick the *best* version from any of these
21:23 lizmat this is part of the change in thinking we  need there
21:23 lizmat I don't think you need to think about having the system selecting the "best" version of a module
21:23 FROGGS lizmat: when I say: use Foo:from<lizmat>, I still get v1.1 from home when there is a v1.2 in site
21:23 [Coke] m: my Mu $j; $j = 1|2; say WHAT($j).gist
21:23 camelia rakudo-moar 25c511: OUTPUT«any((Int), (Int))␤»
21:24 lizmat as a developer, you need to think about the version of a module that you *need*
21:24 lizmat but do you *need* 1.2 in your code?
21:24 [Coke] ^^ there is a test that assumes that should return (Junction)... but I think the is is autothreading it.
21:24 lizmat if so, you should specify that with use Foo:ver(1.2)
21:24 ChoHag Developers never need the toys they say.
21:25 kurahaupo joined #perl6
21:25 lizmat I would even argue that production code should *never* contain a bare "use Foo" in the future
21:25 FROGGS lizmat: what if that is not code I maintain? what if someone releases a hotfix for Foo?
21:25 lizmat for that we have "supersedes"
21:26 FROGGS allowing to specify version ranges is to allow such scenarios
21:26 jnthn [Coke]: ooh, an LHF just in time for be getting done with $dayjob bits
21:26 * [Coke] thinks we can remove the comment at the head of Test.pm now.
21:26 jnthn [Coke]: Yeah, I see what's up :)
21:26 [Coke] test is in S03-junctions/misc.t
21:26 FROGGS lizmat: I think you are forcing restrictions that will not work out
21:27 lizmat perhaps, but I don't see that as a restriction
21:27 FROGGS for one because authors release stuff and then just vanish, and also not always think about versioning
21:27 lizmat if you specify "use Foo" in production code, you really don't care which version/author you get
21:27 FROGGS I see not allowing grouping as a restriction
21:28 lizmat but grouping is only needed to resolve version conflicts, allowing the system to select the highest version
21:28 lizmat within that group
21:28 FROGGS lizmat: correct
21:29 FROGGS it is not about conflicts, it is about crossing CUR boundaries, but yes
21:29 [Coke] jnthn: is the problem with the is or the .gist in Junction?
21:29 lizmat my argument is that the system shouldn't be doing this
21:29 FROGGS it is about picking the best for your search criteria, and that not locked down to sequential lookup
21:29 [Coke] (or the test? :)
21:29 lizmat but how can you guarantee that a higher version means better ?
21:29 jnthn [Coke]: Problem is with the WHAT actually
21:30 FROGGS lizmat: it is not the system, it is me allowing this by configuring groups
21:30 [Coke] dammit. :)
21:30 FROGGS lizmat: that is how versions are meant to be
21:30 jnthn > my Mu $j; $j = 1|2; say WHAT($j).gist
21:30 jnthn (Junction)
21:30 jnthn > my Mu $j; $j = 1|2; say WHAT($j)
21:30 jnthn (Junction)
21:30 jnthn (locally)
21:30 [Coke] jnthn++ # that was fast.
21:31 [Coke] -> commuting.
21:33 lizmat FROGGS: reading up on S11 again
21:34 firefish5000 joined #perl6
21:34 FROGGS lizmat: sorry about my rising temper... perhaps I'd be able to accept it tomorrow :o)
21:35 FROGGS I see that having groups in @*INC are odd... maybe a CUR::Group object would be cleaner, I dunno
21:37 FROGGS jnthn: the block of this while relies on inlining: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/src/core/metaops.pm#L107
21:39 FROGGS and it seems not to get inlined because of p6bindsig
21:40 FROGGS or something else, dunno
21:40 lizmat FROGGS: let me know when we can talk about this tomorrow
21:40 FROGGS sure
21:44 jnthn FROGGS: Ahh...that could explain it.
21:44 jnthn Well, explain the lack of inlining
21:45 jnthn Not the dependency on it
21:45 FROGGS yeah, I do not even try to understand parrot in that case anymore...
21:46 FROGGS s/parrot/perl6-p/
21:47 FROGGS but yeah, I bisected all blocks that were sorted out, and now I only optimize this block (it is the 311'd block), and the others that match the criteria of your latest patch
21:47 jnthn OK. I'm looking at the optimizer and pondering
21:47 jnthn I think it should still inline that one
21:52 dalek rakudo/nom: 049b796 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/CompUnitRepo.pm:
21:52 dalek rakudo/nom: CUR.files should call CURx.files, not .candidates
21:52 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/049b796eec
21:52 lue Gah, syngen got up to 67% of my RAM and was about to crash my computer for the third time :(  I really need to change the process from "for each step, go through all the files" to "for each file, go through all the steps"
21:52 FROGGS ohh yes, that seemed to be a copy&pasto
21:54 jnthn FROGGS: https://gist.github.com/jnthn/0d83712e55339f1361c2
21:55 timotimo lue: if only that were easier :(
21:55 jnthn FROGGS: I'm gonna spectest that here on r-m
21:55 dalek rakudo/nom: d24fe59 | jnthn++ | src/core/operators.pm:
21:55 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix signature of WHAT and VAR.
21:55 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d24fe59283
21:55 jnthn FROGGS: Hopefully it might allow that immediate inlining again and thus help
21:56 lue timotimo: shouldn't be too bad in my case. I think the problem is that currently I'm trying to keep 37 synopses (parsed into a simplistic structure) in memory, and by the time I reach #16 it's a bit taxing on the RAM :)
21:56 timotimo is that the only remaining block that is problematic with the inlining optimization b0rkage from recently?
21:57 lizmat lue: I have that problem all the time
21:57 timotimo ouch :)
21:57 lizmat :-)
21:57 lue It wasn't always a problem, it's just happened recently. But I need to make the process more multithreadable anyway :)
21:58 masak why didn't we choose to design one of those small, cute languages instead? :P
21:58 masak 'night, #perl6
21:58 lizmat gnight masak
21:58 FROGGS masak: we can still switch to php6 :o)
21:59 FROGGS it is just...
21:59 FROGGS not small and not cute
21:59 rjbs joined #perl6
22:00 lue It would also be really nice if I could use the standard grammar's grammar rules for stuff, but that requires wrapping our heads around "slangs", and all the headaches that come along with it.
22:00 FROGGS yes, hard work that is
22:01 lizmat FROGGS: thinking about CUR some more
22:01 FROGGS jnthn: it seems to help \o/ (running spectests now)
22:01 FROGGS lizmat: yeah?
22:01 lizmat maybe I should just make a separate CURL::Installation2 that I think matches the spec
22:01 FROGGS lizmat: what is wrong with the current?
22:02 lizmat it's not up to spec ?
22:02 virtualsue joined #perl6
22:02 FROGGS lizmat: is what way?
22:02 FROGGS what exactly is not up to spec?
22:02 lue I'm still mulling over what an AST manipulation language would look like. :)
22:02 lizmat not doing smart matching on the authority or version
22:03 lizmat not mangling file names
22:03 FROGGS lizmat: the smart matching should be fixable without any regression
22:04 FROGGS lizmat: what files do you want to mangle?
22:04 FROGGS file names*
22:04 lizmat all file names
22:04 FROGGS lizmat: we do not store files to disk, except for binaries...
22:06 FROGGS and to mangle these, we'd need a way to mangle them, like by implementing punycode
22:07 FROGGS punycode has the charm that it is still kinda readable and there is no loss of information
22:10 jnthn FROGGS: No spectest concerns on r-m
22:11 FROGGS jnthn: I'm at S04, one aborting test file, and two other failings test files
22:11 jnthn FROGGS: Is that an improvement?
22:12 lizmat jnthn: I see 2 todo's passing:
22:12 jnthn lizmat: Yes, me too :)
22:12 lizmat m: WHAT(1|2).gist
22:12 camelia rakudo-moar c55942: ( no output )
22:12 lizmat m: WHAT(1|2).gist.say
22:12 camelia rakudo-moar c55942: OUTPUT«any((Int), (Int))␤»
22:12 jnthn lizmat: I think those are the tests taht [Coke]++ was talking about that led me to make the fix :)
22:12 FROGGS jnthn: it feels identical to this hack: https://gist.github.com/FROGGS/0c85c2e1363abb4a45c1
22:12 FROGGS jnthn: so, yes :o)
22:12 lizmat 6 'WHAT(1|2).gist.say'
22:12 lizmat (Junction)
22:14 dalek roast: 23f4832 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S03-junctions/misc.t:
22:14 dalek roast: Unfudge now passing tests
22:14 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/23f48324ac
22:14 FROGGS jnthn: feel free to push, can't get worse than this anymore: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/blob/master/log/rakudo.parrot_summary.out#L3258
22:14 dalek rakudo/nom: fef7933 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.nqp:
22:14 dalek rakudo/nom: p6bindsig should not prevent immediate inlining
22:14 dalek rakudo/nom:
22:14 dalek rakudo/nom: While on MoarVM we can lower signatures and thus optimize this out,
22:14 dalek rakudo/nom: on other backends we don't, but should not lose the immediate inline
22:14 dalek rakudo/nom: optimization on those. FROGGS++ also tracked down a behavior change
22:14 dalek rakudo/nom: that resulted from disabling this optimization on r-p; it should not
22:14 dalek rakudo/nom: make a difference, but this does indeed fix the r-p breakage.
22:14 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fef79335fa
22:15 jnthn lizmat: Thanks for unfudging.
22:15 lizmat spectesting r-p
22:16 jnthn FROGGS: There you go. Thanks a lot for hunting it down sufficiently well that the patch was fairly clear to see.
22:16 FROGGS jnthn: that means we are back to about 20-30 fails, instead of 1800 :o)
22:16 timotimo \o/
22:16 Mouq lue: Is there anything major left TODO with your Pod::Walker to begin seeing if Pod::To::HTML can't be refactored to use it?
22:17 jnthn FROGGS: OK, yay. :)
22:17 FROGGS jnthn: yeah, but it still bothers me that you can provide a patch in seven minutes, when I look at it for days :o)
22:18 jnthn FROGGS: Well, debugging is always the time consuming bit for me.
22:18 jnthn in 95%+ of the cases, anyway.
22:18 FROGGS yeah
22:18 lue Mouq: no, the only thing was that I didn't want to publicize it much until I wrote a converter using it. I don't plan on doing that any time soon though, so feel free to try it out! :)
22:19 FROGGS perhaps I have a chance some day to get into the optimizer a bit... but that day does not seem near
22:19 jnthn A bunch of the Moar deopt patches were a few lines, but took O(hours) to work out
22:20 jnthn Mouq's overight bug report is my next victim :)
22:20 lue By the way, I like how "Pod Walker" sounds like a reference to some piece of sci-fi, yet I couldn't possibly guess which one (Star Wars is my best guess, for some reason) :P
22:20 timotimo oh no!
22:20 FROGGS same for v5... and there are a few nice things still waiting
22:20 timotimo monday has come and gone and saw no weekly :(
22:20 lizmat :-(
22:20 jnthn åhnejs!
22:21 timotimo åhne.js?
22:21 FROGGS timotimo: please mention the OpaquePointer and nativecast work of sergot and me :o)
22:21 timotimo yes!
22:21 timotimo
22:21 jnthn timotimo: *lol*, I have to write that library...
22:22 FROGGS timotimo: sergot also connected to his https machine as the first result of openssl test bindings today
22:23 dalek rakudo/nom: 056aaf9 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/ChangeLog:
22:23 dalek rakudo/nom: ChangeLog entry
22:23 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/056aaf9232
22:23 FROGGS okay, since perl6-p is in a good shape again I can peek into the JSON::RPC bug and in my Archive::Tar problem...
22:24 dalek rakudo/nom: e77c12b | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Actions.nqp:
22:24 dalek rakudo/nom: Ensure lowered_param names are unique.
22:24 dalek rakudo/nom:
22:24 dalek rakudo/nom: Not just unique per block, but per file; it seems the optimizer is
22:24 dalek rakudo/nom: now smart enough to flatten/inline and thus cause collisions.
22:24 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e77c12bb4e
22:24 jnthn Mouq: Please try ^^ to see if it fixes the bug you reported earlier; it should. If not, I can take a deeper look.
22:24 timotimo ouch %)
22:25 lizmat jnthn: are you sure there is no missing $i in there ?
22:25 lizmat or was that the point ?
22:26 FROGGS QAST::Node.unique does that for you
22:26 jnthn lizmat: Well, could do that too...
22:26 jnthn lizmat: But feels like overkill to do both
22:27 lizmat ok, just checking if I understood it correctly  :-)
22:27 FROGGS m: use QAST:from<NQP>; say QAST::Node.unique('foo')
22:27 camelia rakudo-moar c55942: OUTPUT«foo_1␤»
22:27 FROGGS m: { use QAST:from<NQP>; say QAST::Node.unique('foo') }; { use QAST:from<NQP>; say QAST::Node.unique('foo') }
22:27 camelia rakudo-moar c55942: OUTPUT«foo_1␤foo_2␤»
22:31 Mouq jnthn++ won round 1
22:31 Mouq Round 2 appears to be "
22:31 Mouq Error while compiling op call: Required positionals must come before all optional positionals"
22:32 jnthn Mouq: oh, ouch
22:32 Mouq running with --ll-exception
22:33 Mouq https://gist.github.com/Mouq/0eaaffdd956075f291ca
22:34 jnap1 joined #perl6
22:35 jnthn OK...round 2... :)
22:35 Mouq Seriously, though, jnthn+++ for the quick solution to the first bug :)
22:37 jnthn Mouq: I'm currently playing with this patch: https://gist.github.com/jnthn/eedc2eff5cbaeab83c06
22:38 cognominal joined #perl6
22:39 jnthn m: while 1 -> $x { say 42 }
22:39 camelia rakudo-moar d24fe5: OUTPUT«(timeout)42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42…»
22:39 jnthn hmm
22:44 carlin m: say DateTime.new("2014-06-26T22:52:13+12:00")
22:44 camelia rakudo-moar d24fe5: OUTPUT«Invalid DateTime string '2014-06-26T22:52:13+12:00'; use an ISO 8601 timestamp (yyyy-mm-ddThh::mm::ssZ or yyyy-mm-ddThh::mm::ss+0100) instead␤  in method new at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:15422␤  in block  at /tmp/hCLW8Cbci0:1␤␤»
22:45 carlin the colon in the offset is acceptable in ISO 8601
22:45 lue Apparently there's a deprecated thing going on in Pod::To::HTML (that recent %a = {...} change), it's ruining my carefully crafted cursor manipulations! :)
22:45 * carlin pouts
22:46 FROGGS carlin: please file a bug report (and/or provide a PR)
22:47 FROGGS carlin: here is its code: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/src/core/Temporal.pm#L253
22:50 jnthn Mouq: argh, the patch is bad actually
22:50 jnthn It'll bust Parrot again
22:50 FROGGS ohh dear
22:55 jnthn ugh, Pod::To::HTML has test fails too
22:56 jnthn Also the patch doesn't actually fix it
22:59 SevenWolf joined #perl6
23:05 jnthn Mouq: Got htmlify.p6 running without that error now :)
23:06 jnthn Mouq: Just gotta spectest my fix.
23:10 FROGGS jnthn: I've provided a workaround for the JSON::RPC issues on MoarVM: https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=122226#txn-1300057
23:11 lizmat lue: wrt %a = {...} change: would you have rather had it die ?
23:11 lizmat I mean, if deprecating it breaks more than just letting it die...
23:12 lizmat also: it should only mention that after the process is done: so not sure how it could affect cursor manipulation?
23:13 lue lizmat: death wouldn't affect me here, I'm using the module in a shell() call. If I was actually upset about how it ruins everything I'd just add 2>/dev/null  :)
23:13 lizmat that's Pod::To::HTML ?
23:13 lue Yes.
23:13 lizmat must have missed that when going through core modules
23:14 lue shell("$*EXECUTABLE_NAME --doc=HTML $_ > $outfile") is what I'm doing, if you're curious.
23:14 jnthn Pod::To::HTML is ecosystem
23:14 dalek rakudo/nom: b014db2 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.nqp:
23:14 dalek rakudo/nom: Don't inline if/while pointy blocks.
23:14 dalek rakudo/nom:
23:14 dalek rakudo/nom: This should unbreak htmlify.p6 from p6doc, fixing a bug reported by
23:14 dalek rakudo/nom: Mouq++.
23:14 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b014db2ebe
23:15 lizmat ah, Pod::To::HTML is not core, that explains
23:17 timotimo aye, as is the UI for p6debug
23:19 jnthn If you drag that in, you'll end up dragging in Term::ANSIColor with it, and so on...
23:20 jnthn And have to put them into the build.
23:21 lue Part of me thinks I need to throw out all of syngen's code and start again. Maaaaaaybe write (parts of) it in nqp, depending on how badly I want some of the Perl6::Grammar rules :)
23:22 lizmat lue: could you gist me the deprecation message?
23:23 lizmat I can't find what in Pod::To::HTML could cause it
23:23 rurban1 joined #perl6
23:24 jnthn %head = { ... } called at: lib\Pod\To\HTML.pm, line 155
23:24 jnthn lizmat: ^^
23:24 lue lizmat:  https://gist.github.com/lue/ed527858c5102fe26b10  (once I saw it talk about line 156 too)
23:25 lizmat my %head := $p.value;  # should fix it
23:25 rurban2 joined #perl6
23:26 lue I thought perl6-j gave me backtraces on "uninitialized value of type Any" (or UVOTA for short :P). Guess it's still just perl6-p, which I haven't built in quite a while now.
23:29 jnthn FROGGS: Hmm...not sure why the workaround helps, but good to know. I'd like to fix the underlying bug really...
23:29 lizmat pushed a fix to Pod::To::HTML
23:30 lizmat lue ^^^
23:30 lue thanks lizmat++ :)
23:30 jnthn Time for some rest...'night, #perl6
23:30 lue ♞ jnthn o/
23:30 lizmat gnight jnthn
23:32 * lizmat also calls it a night
23:32 lizmat sleep&
23:33 lue ♞ lizmat o/
23:40 atroxaper joined #perl6
23:45 xragnar_ joined #perl6

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