Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-08-12

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:30 dalek perl6-roast-data: 03a5fc3 | coke++ | / (5 files):
00:30 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
00:30 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/03a5fc369d
00:30 dalek perl6-roast-data: 638526f | coke++ | bin/moarborts.p5:
00:30 dalek perl6-roast-data: don't need this
00:30 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/638526fbae
00:30 dalek perl6-roast-data: 3c97153 | coke++ | bin/git.p5:
00:30 dalek perl6-roast-data: stop fetching pugs.
00:30 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/3c97153f10
00:30 dalek perl6-roast-data: 76f27f7 | coke++ | / (6 files):
00:30 dalek perl6-roast-data: First pass at adding rakudo.moar with -jit
00:30 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/76f27f7a91
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01:01 dalek roast/S26-WHY: 9f9b019 | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-documentation/why-both.t:
01:01 dalek roast/S26-WHY: Create a helper function for both-tests
01:01 dalek roast/S26-WHY: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/9f9b019e79
01:01 dalek roast/S26-WHY: c17002c | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-documentation/why-trailing.t:
01:01 dalek roast/S26-WHY: Test multi subs with trailing comments
01:01 dalek roast/S26-WHY: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/c17002c983
01:01 dalek roast/S26-WHY: 36430df | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-TODO.md:
01:01 dalek roast/S26-WHY: Update TODO matrix
01:01 dalek roast/S26-WHY: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/36430df5bd
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01:46 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | http://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
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01:57 dalek rakudo/S26-WHY: d7a9926 | (Rob Hoelz)++ | src/core/traits.pm:
01:57 dalek rakudo/S26-WHY: Don't pass type to set_{leading,trailing}_docs
01:57 dalek rakudo/S26-WHY: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d7a9926502
01:57 dalek rakudo/S26-WHY: 55af855 | (Rob Hoelz)++ | src/Perl6/ (3 files):
01:57 dalek rakudo/S26-WHY: Fix trailing decl comments for roles
01:57 dalek rakudo/S26-WHY: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/55af855408
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04:31 hagiri PerlJam
04:31 hagiri :)
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05:00 hagiri hi all
05:00 hagiri :)
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05:13 hagiri I've been reading and it seems that the perl 6 can use classes, how should I proceed?
05:13 hagiri :)
05:15 ren1us you mean how does OOP work in p6?
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05:18 hagiri ren1us
05:18 hagiri I want to know if it is possible. :)
05:19 ren1us m: class A { has $.var; method new($var) { self.bless(:$var); }; method b() { say $.var; }; }; my $a = A.new("Test"); $a.b;
05:19 camelia rakudo-moar 0c42c1: OUTPUT«Test␤»
05:20 ren1us yeah, p6 has pretty much fully functional classes, [multiple] inheritance, role composition, etc
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05:25 hagiri ren1us you wrote to me is a simple syntax in perl 6?
05:25 hagiri :P
05:25 hagiri i see class {} ..
05:25 hagiri lol
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05:26 ren1us mhm
05:26 ren1us class A { } # empty class body
05:26 ren1us has $.var; # an attribute of the class
05:28 hagiri ren1us hm..
05:28 hagiri for beginner, learn perl 5 or 6?
05:28 hagiri :)
05:29 ren1us 5 is more mainstream, 6 is more awesome
05:31 hagiri ren1us
05:31 hagiri doubt cruel, vi syntax of the two versions, changes little ..
05:31 hagiri ;T
05:32 ren1us i personally find p6 cleaner than p5, but there are those who disagree
05:32 ren1us the fact that i'm in this channel means i'm biased, of course :)
05:35 ren1us i actually forget if there's a clean tutorial series out there for p6.  i know there's the advent calendar and the old book on github, and i seem to recall someone said they were writing a new walkthrough a couple weeks ago
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05:38 moritz ren1us: maybe http://learnxinyminutes.com/docs/perl6/
05:39 moritz (which seems to have a stray bare "a" on a line of its own)
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05:48 hagiri ren1us
05:48 hagiri I'm talking to some people perl5 channel, they told me that because of me being newbie, you'd better start with perl5 .. What do you have to say about?
05:48 hagiri forgive me, my english is very poor :T
05:49 ren1us your english is better than a lot of my friends who have been speaking it their whole lives, so don't worry about it
05:51 ren1us the advantage of p5 is that it's got a huge community, which means a massive support network.  i think the camel book is on its 4th edition by now.  the advantage of p6 is that imo it's more reasonable than p5 in a lot of ways, which often makes it more newbie friendly (especially if you've used another language before), and the information isn't as... spread out, so to speak
05:52 ren1us honestly you can't go wrong and it depends what your end goal is
05:52 thistusooa the perl 6 compiler is slow
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05:54 ren1us moritz: that might be it.  i keep meaning to start writing up all the cool little gotchas i bump into (given that i still suck at this).  you know, put my liberal arts degree to good use.  it'd be nice to pull together as much scattered information as possible, get it neatly organized and navigable, and most importantly, include the details from the perspective of someone who didn't design them
05:54 ren1us (and thus necessarily consider them obvious)
05:56 hagiri ren1us I use a translator and I have a basic understanding of english ..: P
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05:56 hagiri :P
05:56 hagiri I use Fedora, I have perl installed, now, I can code
05:56 hagiri :D
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06:04 hagiri ren1us I'm going to program in Perl 5.
06:04 hagiri =)
06:04 hagiri ;D
06:05 hagiri ren1us thanks bro
06:05 hagiri :)
06:05 hagiri bye
06:05 ren1us have fun
06:06 hagiri ren1us ye
06:06 hagiri :P
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06:46 * Mouq wonders if 'bro' was produced by the translator...
06:47 * Mouq would also like to know where to purchase said translator
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07:38 masak morning, #perl6
07:38 lizmat good *, #perl6!
07:39 moritz \o *
07:41 moritz masak: I thought a bit about CQRS and asynchronity; here are my ramblings: https://gist.github.com/mo​ritz/da2d6ea7a3da3e440c19
07:41 moritz masak: feel free to comment if I misunderstood something
07:42 moritz (I'm talking about the API design aspect of CQRS, not about the separate read/write databases that it might bring too)
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07:53 lizmat looks like the info about Rakudo on http://dev.perl.org is a bit out of date
07:53 lizmat for one, it doesn't mention Rakudo running on JVM, and it doesn't mention MoarVM
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08:01 moritz lizmat: send a mail to webmaster@perl.org, and ask them where you can patch it?
08:01 moritz lizmat: I remember it being subversion-controlled at some point, but it might have been migrated in the mean time
08:01 lizmat ok, will do
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08:04 moritz lizmat: feel free to CC me :-)
08:07 masak moritz: looking
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08:09 masak moritz: re (1), a command sending confirmation is OK if you ask me. one bit (ACK/NAK). dunno if that changes things for you, though.
08:10 nwc10 are we sure that it's morning? Maybe it's still last night. It's the first time in a long time that nothing was committed while I slept.
08:11 moritz nwc10: sleep longer! :-)
08:11 lizmat nwc10: then go back to bed  :-)
08:11 masak moritz: fwiw, I see your point. the summary seems to be that in this case, you want an updated view immediately after the success of the command.
08:11 masak nwc10: who asked you to get up? :P
08:11 moritz masak: correct, and that doesn't seem to mix well with CQRS + async
08:11 moritz masak: or maybe with CQRS in general, dunno :-)
08:12 moritz masak: but it's pretty common in interactive scenarios; people do stuff, and then want to verify the state afterwards
08:13 nwc10 masak: I actually got up because my daughter was (figuratively) bouncing around our bed and literally making a bit too much noice
08:13 nwc10 noise
08:13 nwc10 so "make breakfast" was a calmer plan
08:14 moritz "what shall we have for breakfast?" -- "pancakes!"
08:14 nwc10 also, my laptop battery seems to be unwell, so I wasn't in an easy position to check that nothing had changed before I got out of bed
08:15 masak :)
08:16 masak moritz: I need to ponder it a bit more, but the structure of what you're describing feels like one of those callback thingies -- where you have an asynchronous command come back with a successful outcome, which triggers the query.
08:17 masak moritz: sure, you *could* construct a command-query sequential hybrid... but that violates the stateless nature of the server, with probably ungood consequences.
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08:17 moritz masak: that's one aspect; the other is that the client (who issues the command and waits for the response) also needs a timeout; so it must be more than a simple callback
08:18 FROGGS m: use 42
08:18 camelia rakudo-moar 0c42c1: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/3kza8jQCi1â�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    use used at line 1â�¤â�¤Â»
08:18 FROGGS ahh
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08:23 lizmat m: sub use { say $^a }; use 42
08:23 camelia rakudo-moar 0c42c1: OUTPUT«42␤»
08:23 lizmat not sure whether that should work
08:24 moritz masak: there's also the option to give events sequence numbers, and ensure serial delivery; but that introduces other coupling, and makes scaling much harder
08:24 lizmat m: sub require { say $^a }; require 42 # huh?
08:24 camelia rakudo-moar 0c42c1: OUTPUT«Could not find file '42' for module 42␤  in any load_module at src/gen/m-ModuleLoader.nqp:183␤  in method load_module at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:21292␤  in block  at /tmp/tOxpjq86VA:1␤␤»
08:24 moritz lizmat: it fits well with the "no keywords" policy
08:24 moritz ah, and that's because require expects an expression, not a module name
08:25 masak moritz: yes, I wouldn't go down that path.
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11:17 milan test
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11:19 moritz all tests successful.
11:20 chenryn joined #perl6
11:20 milan tnx
11:21 milan trying xchat from server
11:43 masak milan: first time visitor? return customer? either way, welcome ;)
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13:08 PerlJam guten Morgen meine Freunde
13:09 moritz Guten Nachmittag Herr PerlJam :-)
13:11 nwc10 Heretisch. Es ist immer Morgen in #perl6 :-)
13:13 PerlJam es ist immer Weihnachten in #perl6  :)
13:13 nwc10 leider noch nicht
13:15 PerlJam one of these days I'll learn more german than just a few phrases   ;)
13:15 tadzik ich besischtige die sehenswuerdigkeiten!
13:16 woolfy Mein Datenfernübertragungsanlage funktioniert noch immer.
13:18 moritz Mein Luftkissenboot ist voller Aale!
13:18 woolfy Und ich bin zu alt für ein Sommerferienewigkeitsgefühl.
13:18 * masak .oO( air kissing boat )
13:18 nwc10 gah, I can't rmemeber the correct plural
13:18 woolfy Moritz ist ein Irreaffentittenturbosuperdupertyp!
13:18 nwc10 Zwei Biers bitte, und mein Freund bezahlt
13:19 moritz nwc10: "Biere"
13:19 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 96a286b | coke++ | log/ (14 files):
13:19 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
13:19 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/96a286bad8
13:19 nwc10 danke
13:19 PerlJam woolfy: now you're just making stuff up    ;)
13:20 moritz nwc10: "Zweimal Bier bitte", which sounds more idiomatic, and avoids the plural alltogether :-)
13:20 nwc10 oh yes. thanks. I get picked up on my default choice of phrase for "another beer"
13:21 woolfy PerlJam: right from the "making up German words book" von Ben Schott: "Schottenfreude" ( http://www.benschott.com/schottenfreude/ ), a necessity for all people that love Germany.
13:21 tadzik oh, I only knew Shadenfreunde
13:21 woolfy Schadenfreude
13:21 tadzik oh, maybe :)
13:21 psch "zwei Biere" sounds more like "two kinds of beer" than "two [servings] of beer" to me
13:22 psch ""Kölsch und Pils sind zwei der beliebtesten Biere." vs "Zwei Bier, bitte."
13:23 psch also, merry christmas, #perl6
13:23 moritz psch: yes, you're right, and I'm outed as a non beer-drinker :0(
13:24 moritz erm, that was supposed to be a :-)
13:24 woolfy Yegh. I would agree if you would have said "Kwak und Deus".
13:24 psch woolfy: i'm not big on beers; those are just two kinds i know exist :)
13:24 woolfy psch: merry christmas to you too
13:25 woolfy Ask jnthn, he is as big on beers as I am...  :-)
13:25 PerlJam moritz: what's your drink of choice?
13:25 moritz PerlJam: usually Apfelschorle (apple juice mixed with water)
13:26 PerlJam moritz: if ever we meet IRL, I'll buy you an Apfelschorle  :)
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13:33 moritz :-)
13:36 masak tadzik: "Schadenfreund" -- a friend who does harm
13:36 masak :)
13:37 tadzik masak: I've heard it described as something like "being happy because someone else is hurt/harmed"
13:38 timotimo tadzik: no, that's "schadenfreude"
13:38 timotimo freude == happiness, freund == friend
13:38 PerlJam I liked shadenfreund  (friend who shades?)
13:38 tadzik 1521 tadzik | oh, I only knew Shadenfreunde
13:38 tadzik so, I was right-ish :P
13:38 timotimo schattenfreund*
13:39 tadzik better than shattenfreund...
13:39 PerlJam heh
13:39 moritz schadenfreud!
13:39 moritz (from Sigmund Freud)
13:39 masak haha
13:43 * masak .oO( it was a Schadenfreudian slip of the tongue )
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13:51 moritz .oO( mein Schattfreud hat Schadenfreude )
13:53 PerlJam It's a good thing the pun-engine isn't fully engaged or this could go on for a while.
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13:53 moritz PerlJam: but your inner Schattfreud would *pun*ish you for that :-)
13:54 arnsholt It's a good thing jnthn isn't here, you mean =p
13:54 moritz *Schattenfreud
13:59 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
14:00 * pmichaud backlogs
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14:01 rindolf Hi all.
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14:38 Woodi hallo today :)
14:39 hoelzro morning #perl6
14:41 Woodi moritz: but if client requests update and receive ACK then he can display same data he sended to update...
14:42 ggoebel1111115 joined #perl6
14:42 Woodi also: CQRS isn't advised for using for full domain, just some parts of it...
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14:45 rurban1 masak: Hillarious tweet
14:48 moritz Woodi: that presumes the presence of an ACK/NACK, aye
14:51 pmichaud hotel expo sofia doesn't have any more discounted rooms, but the metropolitan has reasonable rates ($75 USD/ night), if I'm willing to walk a mile each day
14:52 pmichaud well, two miles :)
14:52 Woodi btw. learnP6inY++
14:55 carlin but... now it takes longer to learn :p
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14:59 nwc10 pmichaud: it's not Frankfurt, er Houston
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15:57 japhb jnthn: What's the current comparative status of r-m and r-j for async stuff?  For example, does r-j have the async proc stuff, or just r-m?
15:58 hoelzro has anyone else but PerlJam taken a look at what remains to be done for S26?
15:59 hoelzro I'm thinking of merging what I've got so far into nom, but I'm trying to decide what a good point in terms of support/code quality would be for that to happen
16:00 japhb hoelzro: Do you *know* what's left to be done, or are you asking if you missed anything?
16:00 hoelzro japhb: I have a long list of things I'd *like* to do
16:00 hoelzro but it's really daunting, and I'd like to get the basics that I've got into nom so others can start playing with it
16:00 hoelzro or using it for real code
16:01 hoelzro if you're curious what's left: https://github.com/perl6/roa​st/blob/S26-WHY/S26-TODO.md
16:01 hoelzro hmmm...that table I made doesn't render too nicely on GH
16:03 timotimo japhb: i think r-j doesn't have the async proc stuff yet - the jvm of course does, but it's not hooked up to rakudo
16:04 japhb hoelzro: OK, looked through the list, and I can see why it's daunting.
16:05 hoelzro yeah, I'm trying to be thorough =)
16:05 hoelzro honestly, I'd like to take a break on it
16:05 hoelzro but I don't want a stale branch to sit around
16:05 japhb Thorough is good!  As long as perfect doesn't become the enemy of good
16:05 hoelzro indeed
16:05 hoelzro I think wacky.t can wait
16:05 hoelzro I'll have to look at it again
16:05 japhb Yeah, and I notice a lot of these are tests for cases you may or may not handle yet.
16:07 hoelzro especially with my limited experience with the compiler
16:07 hoelzro although this project has taught me a *lot* about Rakudo
16:07 hoelzro I've been pretty much everywhere under src/, it seems
16:08 japhb Here's my thoughts.  I'd do the following in order of importantce, and merge before you completely burn out:  1. Anything that breaks existing spectests, 2. Anything that badly slows down parsing (like when we used to have to avoid non-latin unicode in the setting), 3) Get the spec up to at least the things you've *already* implemented and are pretty sure you won't change.  After that, everything else seems like iterative improvements that can happen whenever.
16:08 japhb I bet!
16:09 hoelzro alright, good advice
16:09 hoelzro I don't think I break any existing tests
16:10 hoelzro and my branch is about as fast as nom to compile (give or take a second or three)
16:10 japhb That sounds good on both counts
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16:16 Mouq We really need to make working with Cursors from Perl6land not awful. As in, maybe I'll get around to it at some point, but it would be pretty swell if someone else did it ;)
16:19 japhb .oO( *50's dad voice*  Well that'll be just SWELL, Timmy! )
16:22 Mouq Anyway, plagarizing FROGGS+++, I did this: https://github.com/Mouq/snake/commit/71​1beace8f5e020b11ec0d2efdab259eab241162
16:23 timotimo oh, cool
16:23 timotimo i like to see a bit of activity on Snake
16:27 Mouq I should probably give credit to him in the documents, esp for the Build script I basically stole wholesale, but he's been talking about a module for slangs, so hopefully much of what I took will disappear ;)
16:28 Mouq My hope is that this offers some light on what such a module would be
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16:32 timotimo :)
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17:31 [Coke] host07 is complaining that its ubuntu is too old.
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17:37 dalek perl6-roast-data: bce3be8 | coke++ | / (6 files):
17:37 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
17:37 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/bce3be8462
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17:46 dalek specs: 34a30e7 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S (6 files):
17:46 dalek specs: Make sure we expand TABs to spaces
17:46 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/34a30e748a
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17:51 pmichaud 14:59 <nwc10> pmichaud: it's not Frankfurt, er Houston
17:51 pmichaud I suspect even Frankfurt isn't normally Frankfurt.  :)   But Houston is always Houston.  :-/
17:52 pmichaud Anyway, a 1mi walk is no big deal.  I went ahead and booked a room (to make sure I have one), I'm still deciding whether to cross the pond though.
17:53 jnthn pmichaud: 1mi? That's quite tolerable :)
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17:54 japhb jnthn: Depends on which city you're doing it in, and what the weather is like at the time.  I found walking a mile or two in Austin to have wildly varying tolerability depending on conditions.  :-)
17:54 jnthn Yes, I was working under the "in Sofia" context :)
17:57 japhb :-)
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18:00 rindolf Hi all.
18:00 rindolf What's up?
18:03 pmichaud Yes, I walk at least a mile every day as it is.  :)
18:03 pmichaud I've convinced myself that the expense for Sofia isn't too great... now I just have to decide if I can dedicate the time :)
18:05 PerlJam pmichaud: what would you be doing if not at Sofia?
18:06 dalek specs: 98a97ba | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S (3 files):
18:06 dalek specs: De-TAB
18:06 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/98a97ba054
18:06 jnthn .oO( missing jnthn talks! :P )
18:07 PerlJam pmichaud: btw, a guy on #perl was asking a regex question today where he wanted to match against "something/pmwiki.php"   :)
18:12 PerlJam docs/ops.markdown says nqp::fromstr_I(str $val, Mu:T $type) converts a string value to a Big Integer of the given type.   What does that mean "of the given type"?
18:12 jnthn $type
18:12 jnthn Where $type is something that is a P6bigint or can box one
18:13 jnthn (The latter is true in Perl 6, where we have a P6opaque with a P6bigint inlined into its body, since you can potentially subclass or mix in to Int)
18:13 pmichaud PerlJam: (if not at Sofia)  Probably resting and getting work done on the house
18:13 pmichaud PerlJam: oh, and hopefully working on #p6 :)
18:13 pmichaud and missing jnthn/lizmat/masak talks
18:14 PerlJam pmichaud: so .. you *wouldn't* be working on #p6 if you went?
18:14 pmichaud I'm continually surprised at pmwiki's reach.  Anyone here know who Ward Christensen is?
18:14 pmichaud He sent me money for PmWiki :)
18:14 pmichaud (Ward Christensen of "XMODEM" fame.)
18:15 japhb Woah.
18:15 pmichaud PerlJam: well, during the 28+ hours of travel I might not be doing much work on anything... including #p6 :)
18:16 PerlJam pmichaud: so ... you'd be resting  :)
18:16 pmichaud http://act.yapc.eu/ye2014/talk/5633   # one of the top reasons for making it to Sofia
18:16 PerlJam sounds like the only thing you lose out on is "getting work done on the house"
18:17 pmichaud PerlJam: well, and about $2.5K  :)
18:17 nwc10 that's a lot of beer
18:17 pmichaud oh, I'm pretty sure Sofia includes beer, though
18:17 pmichaud likely more than I'd get by staying home
18:18 nwc10 I've just realised that I have no idea about either Bulgarian beer or Texan beer
18:23 masak never too late to find out!
18:24 PerlJam jnthn: Am I misunderstanding something, or is this a bug? https://gist.github.com/per​lpilot/8dcae28cfe73ea1778e3
18:24 PerlJam masak: it's probably too late when you're dead  ;>
18:24 kaleem joined #perl6
18:25 japhb .oO( "Never a better time ... than RIGHT NOW." )
18:25 masak PerlJam: better try those beers now, then!
18:25 jnthn PerlJam: Try nqp::say(nqp::tostr_I($int))
18:26 PerlJam ah
18:26 PerlJam that works as expected, thanks
18:26 kaleem joined #perl6
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18:35 hoelzro let's say I have a few variants of a parametric role
18:35 hoelzro role A[] { ... } role A[::T] { ... }
18:35 hoelzro if each variant has their own leading comment, what should A.WHY be?
18:36 PerlJam hoelzro: whatever the spec says ;)
18:36 hoelzro that's the thing - it doesn't!
18:37 PerlJam does it mention multis in a similar regard?  or silence on the matter there too?
18:37 hoelzro multis it does
18:37 hoelzro each candidate has its own WHY
18:37 jnthn hoelzro: Yes, that problem is shared by our-scoped things declared in parametric roles too :)
18:37 hoelzro but you can "pre-declare" a multi via 'proto'
18:37 hoelzro can one do the same with roles?
18:38 jnthn Which, of course, don't show up in A:: either :)
18:38 hoelzro jnthn: oh, so if I declare an our $something in one variant, it's accessible from the other?
18:38 jnthn hoelzro: No, more like this:
18:38 jnthn m: role A { our $x }; say $A::x
18:38 camelia rakudo-moar 0c42c1: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
18:38 jnthn uh, bad example :)
18:38 jnthn m: role A { our $x }; say $A::.keys
18:38 camelia rakudo-moar 0c42c1: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/rxwMQSAVg_â�¤Variable '$A' is not declaredâ�¤at /tmp/rxwMQSAVg_:1â�¤------> [32mrole A { our $x }; say $A::.keys[33mâ��[31m<EOL>[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        method argumentsâ�¤Â»
18:39 jnthn grr
18:39 jnthn m: role A { our $x }; say A::.keys
18:39 camelia rakudo-moar 0c42c1: OUTPUT«␤»
18:39 jnthn That's what I was after.
18:39 hoelzro ah ha
18:39 jnthn For roles, A doesn't refer to the role, but rather ti's a type object whose meta-object knows how to take arguments and pick an appropriate role from them.
18:39 hoelzro see, the current implementation applies the WHY to the ParametricRoleGroupHOW
18:40 jnthn That sounds odd to me.
18:40 hoelzro ok, this is why I ask =)
18:40 jnthn It might "make things work" but not in a very meaningful way.
18:40 * hoelzro .oO( WHY I ask? )
18:40 jnthn Because it fails as soon as there's more than one parameterization.
18:40 hoelzro well, my current implementation would merge the variants' docs
18:41 jnthn If there's a way to do it, A.WHY would be better returning the .WHYs of all the things in the group.
18:41 hoelzro whoa
18:41 PerlJam hoelzro: +1 to what jnthn sais
18:41 PerlJam er, said
18:41 hoelzro that's not a bad idea
18:41 hoelzro I feel that protos could work the same way
18:41 jnthn And the .WHY on a particular ParametricRoleHOW gives the doc for that variant
18:42 hoelzro because I feel it's weird that if I built some sort of interactive help mechanism, and help(&infix:<+>) printed nothing =/
18:42 jnthn And folks that really want to drill down that far just ask the MOP for what the role group has.
18:42 jnthn Yes, that sounds like just the same issue. Nice that it shows up in multiple places, since then the role case isn't special ;-)
18:43 masak "[Language design] requires a curious mixture of clear thinking, aesthetics and pragmatic judgement." -- http://blog.stephenwolfram.com/2014/08/computatio​nal-knowledge-and-the-future-of-pure-mathematics/
18:43 hoelzro indeed
18:43 masak "And it involves always seeking the deepest possible understanding, and trying to do the broadest unification—to come up in the end with the cleanest and “most obvious” primitives to represent things."
18:43 jnthn (that is, I'm agreeing with you that it's the same thing with protos, and yes, .WHY on infix:<+> shoudl show the docs of the alternatives)
18:43 hoelzro jnthn: is there a way to "pre-declare" a role? I'm wondering what the right thing would be to apply a generic comment to the ParametricRoleGroupHOW
18:43 hoelzro I can see wanting to do this with proto, so I'm thinking about the role analogue
18:43 jnthn hoelzro: Um...I dunno what role Foo { ... } does today
18:44 jnthn m: role Foo { ... }
18:44 camelia rakudo-moar 0c42c1: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Could not instantiate role 'Foo':␤Cannot invoke this object (REPR: P6opaque, cs = 0)␤   at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:2028  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/languages/nqp/​lib/Perl6/Metamodel.moarvm:specialize:19)␤ from src/gen/m-Metamode…»
18:44 jnthn m: role Foo { ... }; 1
18:44 camelia rakudo-moar 0c42c1: ( no output )
18:44 jnthn Not much :)
18:45 PerlJam Is .WHY always a string?
18:45 jnthn hoelzro: Anyway, not officially, but we can probably make the above thingy do it. Question then is if it's an error not to provide at lesat one role variant later.
18:45 hoelzro PerlJam: never, actually
18:45 hoelzro it's always a Pod::Block::Declarator
18:45 hoelzro at least on Rakudo
18:45 PerlJam oh, that's right.  It's an object that stringifies.
18:45 * PerlJam forgets so easily sometimes.
18:46 hoelzro the spec just says it should be an object with .leading, .trailing, and .WHEREFORE methods
18:46 hoelzro PerlJam: I would probably have forgotten if I hadn't started dreaming about S26 =P
18:46 hoelzro jnthn: I think that applying a WHY to the role group can wait to be specced
18:47 hoelzro I just want to make what I merge into nom to make sense
18:47 hoelzro I'll wait and see if others (esp. TimToady) have anything to add
18:49 PerlJam hoelzro: What happens to  #|( fooey ) class A { ... };   then later   #|( woot! ) class A { has $.stuff; method foo { } }   ?
18:49 hoelzro isn't that a redefinition error?
18:49 hoelzro oh, I guess not
18:49 hoelzro because the first is just a forward decl
18:51 PerlJam seems to me like the .WHY should also keep track of the file and linenumber where it comes from.
18:53 hoelzro hmm
18:53 hoelzro I don't know if that's spec'd, but it might already
18:54 hoelzro it does not
18:54 PerlJam I doubt it.   I found .WHY to only be specced, the first 90%
18:54 hoelzro yeah, the spec can be a bit ambiguous =/
18:54 hoelzro which is WHY I'm here, bothering everyone with questions =)
18:57 jnthn hoelzro: (applying a WHY to the role group) agree
19:02 cognome r:   enum < un >; say un
19:03 camelia rakudo-moar 0c42c1: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    un used at line 1. Did you mean 'uc', 'on'?â�¤â�¤Â»
19:03 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 0c42c1: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    un used at line 1. Did you mean 'uc'?â�¤â�¤Â»
19:03 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 0c42c1: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    un used at line 1. Did you mean 'on', 'uc'?â�¤â�¤Â»
19:03 jnthn cognome: anonymous enum doesn't install symbols
19:03 cognome r:   enum E < un >; say un
19:03 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 0c42c1: OUTPUT«un␤»
19:04 cognome jhntn so, what's their purpose?
19:04 jnthn cognome: They produce a hash
19:05 cognome so, declaring them in sink context should be an error?
19:06 PerlJam more like a warning to me.
19:06 jnthn Yeah, foo in sink context is mostly done as a warning
19:06 jnthn Or always, in fact
19:08 FROGGS .tell Mouq nice! and yes, this makes the Slangish module easier design wise...
19:08 yoleaux FROGGS: I'll pass your message to Mouq.
19:19 masak m: enum :: <un>; say un
19:19 camelia rakudo-moar 0c42c1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤MVMArray: Can't pop from an empty array␤»
19:19 * masak submits rakudobug
19:20 masak the days of low-hanging bugs are not completely past ;)
19:22 masak m: enum :: <un>
19:22 camelia rakudo-moar 0c42c1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤MVMArray: Can't pop from an empty array␤»
19:22 * cognome wonders about the magic of enum parsing, were is the closing part for that :  https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/bl​ob/nom/src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp#L2716 ?
19:23 FROGGS cognome: a term
19:23 cognome I see an opening : <?[<(«]>   but no closing
19:23 FROGGS is the opening, containing and closing part
19:23 jnthn That's just a lookahead; it doesn't swallow
19:23 FROGGS cognome: that is a look ahead
19:23 cognome ho. thanx
19:23 cognome I missed the ?
19:24 jnthn np, but don't call me ho :P
19:24 FROGGS bro' :P
19:24 cognome jnthn++ , that's a exclamation of surprise. :)
19:25 PerlJam cognome: Wouldn't an exclamation have an exclamation point?
19:25 * diakopter giggles at "Can't pop from an empty array" (error inherited from Parrot)
19:25 cognome sometimes I go gung-ho with my French
19:25 jnthn diakopter: I...don't think trying to pop from an empty array makes sense here whatever backend we're on :)
19:26 diakopter I meant the error text
19:26 jnthn Ah :)
19:26 FROGGS diakopter: copy&paste ftw :o)
19:26 * masak .oO( when you try to pop the abyss, the abyss pops you back )
19:26 diakopter Parrot had an exclamation point on it, though
19:27 diakopter .. speaking of exclamation points, as I continue reading the backscroll
19:28 FROGGS diakopter: you are going to read everything from feb until now?
19:28 guru joined #perl6
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19:28 diakopter FROGGS: hm
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19:36 lizmat moritz: mail sent
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19:39 lizmat it just occurred to me that for the case
19:40 lizmat for $fh.lines -> $line { }
19:40 lizmat we could very well use a type of reification that only keeps one line in memory at a time (aka, throw away the ones already seen)
19:40 masak yes.
19:41 lizmat this would be different of course for something like my @lines := $fh.lines;
19:41 masak something similar was discussed the other day, I think.
19:41 brrt ehm, hey, i've a question for language designers
19:41 masak but maybe you're alluding to that discussion?
19:41 lizmat nope
19:41 masak lizmat: ok, I'll try to find it for you.
19:41 lizmat not consciously
19:41 lizmat :-)
19:42 brrt what's the right thing with regards to the truth-valueness of floating points? especially NaNs?
19:42 masak lizmat: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2014-08-09#i_9159362
19:42 lizmat r: say ?NaN
19:42 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 0c42c1: OUTPUT«True␤»
19:43 PerlJam r: say ?Inf;  # also this :)
19:43 camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 0c42c1: OUTPUT«True␤»
19:44 masak javascript> say !!NaN
19:44 masak false
19:44 timotimo m: say !NaN
19:44 camelia rakudo-moar 0c42c1: OUTPUT«False␤»
19:44 brrt yeah, i had expected as much from the current code
19:44 FROGGS I had also guessed that NaN is falsish
19:44 masak irb(main):002:0> !!(0.0/0.0)
19:44 masak => true
19:44 lizmat I would think anything not 0 would be true
19:44 lizmat and NaN is not 0
19:45 FROGGS but .Bool should DWIM
19:45 brrt no, unless_n and if_n (and likely, istrue_n if it exists) both check for equality with 0.0
19:45 FROGGS and I is me
19:45 FROGGS :D
19:45 brrt and indeed NaN is not equal to 0
19:45 masak I think I'm fine with ?NaN being True.
19:45 masak brrt: right. because NaN is not equal to *anything*.
19:46 masak m: say NaN == NaN
19:46 nwc10 NaN is not equal to NaN. Unless you're Intel's C compiler with default optimisation settings
19:46 camelia rakudo-moar 0c42c1: OUTPUT«False␤»
19:47 brrt in which case intels compiler is wrong
19:47 brrt ok, so i'm good for implmenting it numeric booleanity as strict equivalence to 0.0? that's not going to surprise anyone?
19:48 nwc10 11912|Evidently it's important to you to get the wrong answer as quickly as possible.
19:48 masak brrt: you have my blessing ;)
19:48 PerlJam brrt: not me.
19:48 masak brrt: someone who cares about NaN should handle that themselves.
19:48 PerlJam brrt: assuming you meant "falseness as strict equivalence to 0"
19:49 brrt ehm... well. yes PerlJam, that is what i mean
19:49 masak brrt: and ?NaN being True follows the already established rule of "everything but zero boolifies to True"
19:49 brrt very well, i'll make it so
19:49 FROGGS nmake it so!
19:49 masak brrt: the only other option I can think of is NaN boolifying to Failure. but I think that's a bad idea.
19:50 PerlJam masak: why?
19:50 FROGGS well, NaN is some sort of small explosion
19:50 PerlJam .oO( Failure is not an option? )
19:50 brrt ehm, at any rate, i don't think we should handle that at VM level
19:50 brrt /if/ you want that
19:51 masak PerlJam: it's the typical thing that tends to end up in "Perl 6 puzzlers" books.
19:51 masak PerlJam: "prefix:<?> always results in True or False -- right? RIGHT? wrong."
19:52 masak PerlJam: and I can't see a use case for it, where it would make someone happer rather than breaking Least Surprise.
19:52 masak happier*
19:52 brrt especially implementors, i might add
19:53 masak right.
19:53 rom1504 left #perl6
19:53 masak one more spectest brick in the wall.
19:53 masak s/one more/just another/
19:58 pmichaud I don't think that prefix:<?> should ever return a Failure, since Failures boolify
20:02 FROGGS everything boolifies
20:02 timotimo i'm going to start writing my weekly now; would people like to mention their recent stuff they did? :)
20:02 hoelzro boolify all the things!
20:03 timotimo i haven't heard of changes to the Pod SAX thing or the new Pod::To::HTML re-write
20:03 FROGGS it is just that Failure.Bool disarms the Failure and always returns False
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20:05 ChoHag X::AdHoc.new(payload => "Cannot find method 'Any'")
20:06 brrt timo: i think you know all my stuff by now
20:06 masak ChoHag: well hello to you too ;)
20:06 ChoHag Hello.
20:07 ChoHag That happened in one of the 10 runs.
20:07 hoelzro nothing new from me
20:07 ChoHag X::AdHoc.new(payload => "Could not find symbol '\&Return'") in another.
20:07 hoelzro timotimo: ^
20:09 jnthn ChoHag: Threads + MoarVM?
20:09 ChoHag Yes.
20:10 jnthn ChoHag: I don't suppose you've a short-ish snippet that reproduces it?
20:11 ChoHag Funnily enough I just had the thought that the code might be small enough to be useful to look at and counted it.
20:11 ChoHag 984 lines.
20:11 jnthn Well, if it's something you're willing to share (with me, doesn't have to be public), I can try to reproduce it here and debug.
20:12 ChoHag It does seem to do with passing a block ref into a closure.
20:13 ChoHag Something like if $.foo == { ... }, there's code which does: $x = $.foo; $.foo = sub { do_stuff(); $.foo = $x; }
20:13 ChoHag And last time I had the same sort of blowup I was passing coderefs in a similarly stupid way.
20:13 TimToady well, hopefully not with ==
20:13 TimToady that's numeric
20:13 ChoHag No, not ==. That expression was supposed to just be setting the scene.
20:14 ChoHag Imagine the curtains coming up to a $ with its foo being a modernised Coderef.
20:17 ChoHag I think I'm down to mostly moar bugs rather than my own bugs, so now I can hopefully start reshaping to code into something vaguely coherent.
20:17 ChoHag At which point it'll go onto github.
20:18 TimToady well, just remember that there are cultures where revealing vulnerability is perceived as weakness, and cultures where it's perceived as strength.  We try to be the latter. :)
20:19 ChoHag It's not so much revealing vulnerability as my git-fu sucks.
20:19 TimToady allowing people to see that your git-fu sucks is revealing vulnerability :)
20:20 ChoHag I basically git add whenever I have code in a state I really don't want to lose as a sort of really lazy backup and commit an enormous patch all in one go.
20:20 ChoHag Then move onto another project for a few months and start (sometimes start over)  again.
20:20 TimToady the ability to show that your git-fu sucks reveals that you are secure in your identity apart from that :)
20:20 ChoHag One day I hope to finish something.
20:21 TimToady commit early, commit often, we say :)
20:21 TimToady one thing that helps finishing is when someone else starts helping
20:21 TimToady also helps catch design errors earlier
20:22 timotimo hoelzro: thank you
20:22 ChoHag All I'm really doing now is designing.
20:22 ChoHag It's less coding and more doodling
20:22 telex joined #perl6
20:22 hoelzro timotimo: sure thing; I'll endeavor to do nothing this week as well ;)
20:23 jnthn git is probably the best version contorl system for making a mess in, in that it provides you the tools to massage mess into perfection :)
20:23 ChoHag But a very complicated doodle for which I have a vague plan I can't quite define to myself.
20:23 TimToady usually means you're trying to do too many things at once; sometimes adding constraints makes it easier
20:23 ChoHag My wife is an artist, so I tell her I am too but where she uses paint my medium is code.
20:24 ChoHag Usually (thankyou Larry) perl.
20:24 timotimo hoelzro: noted!
20:25 ChoHag I think I sort of have a shape I can hang my ideas off of now though. Things have come together the past few days.
20:25 ChoHag That's why I was able to compare the output from a few different runs.
20:26 TimToady well, speaking of constraints, I'd better go rest my eye for an hour or two...
20:26 TimToady nap &
20:26 ChoHag I'm actualyl quite keen to get this code out, it's just hard to get (and keep) my brain in the right place when I can only really code during a 45 minute packed commute at either end of the day.
20:28 ChoHag This broken process sort of works for now.
20:30 ChoHag That said, jnthn, if you want to try and decipher this mass of twisty little uncommented perl threads (all alike, naturally) you're welcome to a copy.
20:35 jnthn ChoHag: Sure, it's good to have something to go on, and I doubt I need to decipher it all to zone in on the bug, if I'm lucky.
20:36 brrt oh, i might have a suggestion for the create-runner-tool thingy
20:37 brrt it would be /very/ convenient if you could pass the name of a debugger, for instance gdb, as an environment variable
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20:51 timotimo yes
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21:15 brrt yeah, so, we can do that, if you wish :-)
21:15 brrt uhm, i'm going to sleep i think
21:16 brrt left #perl6
21:48 dalek specs: 1345614 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S03-operators.pod:
21:48 dalek specs: Add Set/Bag/Mix smartmatch candidates to table
21:48 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/1345614cf6
21:59 dalek rakudo/nom: b87d6a5 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/Perl6/World.nqp:
21:59 dalek rakudo/nom: Naively fix RT #122514
21:59 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b87d6a5f58
21:59 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=122514
22:00 guru joined #perl6
22:01 dalek rakudo/nom: 969e6c2 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Any.pm:
22:01 dalek rakudo/nom: Prevent using Bool:D as a Matcher for methods also
22:01 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/969e6c27b0
22:12 masak 'night, #perl6
22:15 timotimo gnite masak!
22:18 dalek roast: ef7e125 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S12-enums/misc.t:
22:18 dalek roast: Add tests for RT #122514
22:18 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/ef7e1258e5
22:18 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=122514
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22:48 ren1us okay, i haven't tried fighting with panda in ages.  when it's complaining about a dependency not being precompiled, even when i've even gone so far as to install that dependency separately, what's the proper thing to do?
22:52 ventica you cannot defeat the kung fu panda... he is the Dragon Warrior...
22:54 tadzik ren1us: what are you trying to install?
22:55 ren1us Compress::Zlib (and then Compress::Snappy when that didn't work), both of which are complaining about NativeCall (which installs without any errors)
22:57 cognome joined #perl6
22:58 tadzik interesting
22:58 daxim_ joined #perl6
22:58 tadzik ren1us: which backend is that?
22:58 ren1us moarvm
22:58 tadzik it works for me without a problem
22:58 tadzik well, Snappy doesn't but for different reasons
22:59 tadzik I assume everything is fresh and updated?
22:59 ren1us panda, yes.  moar i updated about a week and a half ago
22:59 ren1us so if it's outdated it's not by much
22:59 tadzik yeah, mine must be similarly new
22:59 tadzik very strange. Could you maybe try exporting RAKUDO_MODULE_DEBUG=1 and see if that yields some interesting results?
23:00 tadzik I think that's the right name for it
23:00 tadzik I gotta go get some sleep soon, but I can look at the issue tomorrow
23:04 sjn hey, it's pmichaud++ day soon :)
23:04 yoleaux 6 Aug 2014 05:43Z <vendethiel> sjn: well, it actually needs rebasing
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23:11 ren1us .tell tadzik https://gist.github.com/re​n1us/01d724255dd57bbaab31 # panda issues
23:11 yoleaux ren1us: I'll pass your message to tadzik.
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23:29 carlin ren1us: are you sure you have an updated panda? that error happens on older panda where it compiles the modules to Foo.moarvm and not Foo.pm.moarvm
23:30 carlin "older" meaning more than 10 days old
23:30 ren1us i did $ rakudobrew build-panda about 45 minutes ago
23:30 ren1us so i think it's probably fine
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23:58 timotimo .o( i wonder if perl6 ought to get a "no autovivification" pragma for performance reasons; it seems like perl5 has one to prevent something like %foo<bar><baz><quux>:exists from creating the hashes in foo<bar> and foo<bar><baz> when checking for quux (and all of its ancestors) to exist )

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