Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-09-26

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:19 timotimo http://t.h8.lv/p6bench/2014-09-26-many_rakudos_history.html - still rather humbling ... this one is more sensible to look at: http://t.h8.lv/p6bench/2014-09-26-many_rakudos_history_nop5.html
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00:23 timotimo in the summary we're not even reaching 1/10 of the score of perl5 ...
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01:55 * TimToady in Bella Vista, AR
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02:56 dalek roast: aa5ffd7 | (David Warring david.warring@gmail.com)++ | integration/99problems-41-to-50.t:
02:56 dalek roast: [integration/99-problems] solve P48 Truth tables for logical expressions (3).
02:56 dalek roast:
02:56 dalek roast: Added basic operator precedence logic.
02:56 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/aa5ffd77ae
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03:12 dalek roast: 5a471e8 | (David Warring david.warring@gmail.com)++ | integration/99problems-41-to-50.t:
03:12 dalek roast: [integration/99-problems] P48 removed precedence cheat - no long needed
03:12 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/5a471e8d9d
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05:53 FROGGS[mobile] firefish5000: already done yesterday :o)
05:54 FROGGS[mobile] TimToady: what is AR?
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06:32 dalek star: d73e079 | (Tobias Leich)++ | modules/Template-Mojo:
06:32 dalek star: update revision of Template-Mojo
06:32 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/d73e079361
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07:48 nine timotimo: If we were already close to Perl 5, we would have less room for improvement than we really have. Which would be a shame since we're really slow at times :) But we will get there eventually.
07:51 brrt nine: it is my personal suspicion that getting to perl5-level will take some serious rethinking of the GLR type :-)
07:51 brrt which is ok
07:51 brrt keeps us from the streets
07:51 brrt but boy would it be nice to have a full-time team on this
07:55 nine It would :) But don't go there. Even the Perl 5 world has almost no paid support despite the language making billions around the world. Wishing such things can only end in frustration.
07:56 nine But as I see it: we only started pushing performance a year ago. And most of the work was basics like porting to MoarVM, spesh and the JIT. I guess there's loads of optimizations waiting to be implemented on top of these basics.
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08:03 pmurias GLR type?
08:04 brrt well.. i'd also add that our JIT is the worlds most toyish production JIT
08:05 brrt but yeah, you're not wrong, there's still a lot that we can do
08:05 brrt both on the high and low levels
08:05 brrt but very few of these are low-hanging fruits
08:09 nine pmurias: the great list refactor
08:10 pmurias are lazy lists a big performance bottleneck?
08:12 nine seems so
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08:30 Ven o/, #perl6.
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08:31 moritz pmurias: yes
08:33 brrt \o Ven
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08:38 moritz pmurias: in most profiles I've seen,  ListIter.reify and MapIter.reify together make up at least 20% of the time, often more
08:38 dalek roast: 06d3aa3 | usev6++ | S (5 files):
08:38 dalek roast: Avoid some warnings and a few cosmetic changes
08:38 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/06d3aa38cc
08:39 brrt well, that means a 10 fold speed increase will take at most 18% of the total runtime
08:39 moritz brrt: the 20% is more of a lower boundary
08:40 brrt fair enough
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08:40 moritz brrt: just as another databpoint,  for lines() { }  is limited by CPU, not IO
08:40 brrt what
08:40 brrt o.O
08:40 brrt not jitted yet probably?
08:41 moritz dunno, I profiled without JIT
08:41 brrt i'd be interested :-)
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09:17 lizmat Good *, #perl6!
09:17 lizmat FROGGS[mobile]: AR = Arizona
09:22 brrt \o lizmat
09:22 lizmat \o brrt
09:25 moritz brrt: https://gist.github.com/moritz/71e80df7a6756ac5251e
09:25 brrt very excellent :-)
09:26 brrt is see
09:26 brrt i see
09:26 brrt wow
09:26 brrt we should JIT better :-)
09:26 moritz that's the bottom-up approach
09:27 brrt true
09:27 moritz if we spend >60% in list iteration code, we're doing things utterly wrong.
09:27 nine Improving the JIT for this case probably will improve other cases as well...
09:27 moritz though TBH I don't know how to make them better
09:28 nwc10 this is a short example demonstrating the need/acting as a test case for the Grand List Refactor?
09:28 brrt i'd say
09:28 moritz yes
09:29 brrt this is especially annoying since timotimo and i already optimized-and-jitted list iteration on the moarvm level
09:31 brrt here's.. the thing though
09:31 brrt because of many reasons, the frame invocation code is a pretty slow path
09:32 brrt anything that relies on a lot of calls to a lot of subroutines is going to hurt
09:32 moritz aye
09:32 moritz there are 99k lines here in /usr/share/dict/words
09:33 moritz and it seems we have at least 5x as many invocations
09:33 dalek roast: 4b5dd97 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S16-filehandles/open.t:
09:33 dalek roast: Unfudge now passing test on rakudo
09:33 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/4b5dd97584
09:33 moritz actually, a lot more
09:34 moritz just looking at the numbers, we seem to invoke ~13 frames per list item
09:34 Ven :(
09:35 moritz on the plus side, we spend only 11% of the time GC-ing
09:35 moritz that's quite good, IMHO
09:35 dalek roast: 3164e55 | usev6++ | S03-operators/autoincrement.t:
09:35 dalek roast: Add test for RT #99732
09:35 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/3164e55750
09:35 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=99732
09:36 brrt that's not bad, no :-)
09:36 brrt i think i argued for frame allocation optimising (as in, making optimistic) some time ago on #moarvm
09:37 brrt i'd argue for that again but it is mightily complex
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10:19 dalek roast: 2b143b6 | usev6++ | S03-operators/misc.t:
10:19 dalek roast: Remove duplicate test
10:19 dalek roast:
10:19 dalek roast: There is already a test for this in S03-metaops/zip.t
10:19 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/2b143b6f31
10:19 * brrt afk
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10:20 nine Interesting way to "fix" ShellShock: http://lwn.net/Articles/613346/
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10:36 grondilu shouldn't grep conserve typing?
10:36 grondilu m: my Real %a; %a{^3}»++; say %a.grep(*.key %% 2).perl
10:36 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«("2" => 1, "0" => 1).list␤»
10:37 grondilu m: my Real %a; %a{^3}»++; say %a.perl
10:37 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«Hash[Real].new("2" => 1, "0" => 1, "1" => 1)␤»
10:37 grondilu see what I mean?
10:37 lizmat I think it's more a deficiency in Hash.perl
10:38 lizmat or even Pair.perl
10:38 grondilu m: my Real %a{Int}; %a{^3}»++; %a.=grep(*.key %% 2); say %a.perl
10:38 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«Hash[Real,Int].new(2 => 1, 0 => 1)␤»
10:39 grondilu not sure
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11:26 carlin is it possible to declare a MAIN sub with two commands, so something like `multi MAIN('foo'|'bar') { }` so that both foo and bar run the same sub
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11:28 FROGGS m: multi MAIN($ where 'foo'|'bar') { say 42 }; MAIN('foo');  MAIN('bar');  MAIN('baz');
11:28 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«42␤42␤Cannot call 'MAIN'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Any $ where { ... })␤  in sub MAIN at /tmp/2_B1So36Hz:1␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/2_B1So36Hz:1␤␤»
11:28 FROGGS carlin: ^^
11:30 carlin thanks FROGGS++
11:30 carlin that makes the Usage a bit weird though
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11:30 carlin Usage: test.pl6 -> ($_) { #`(Block|52813472) ... }
11:31 FROGGS yeah...
11:31 FROGGS we'd need to improve how such code blocks gistify
11:31 FROGGS m: multi MAIN($ any <foo bar>) { say 42 }
11:31 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/VJYPbsk006â�¤Missing blockâ�¤at /tmp/VJYPbsk006:1â�¤------> [32mmulti MAIN($ [33mâ��[31many <foo bar>) { say 42 }[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        statement listâ�¤        prefix or termâ�¤ …»
11:31 FROGGS m: multi MAIN($ where any <foo bar>) { say 42 }
11:31 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«Usage:␤  /tmp/5iAw9KyYvp -> ($_) { #`(Block|50648384) ... } ␤»
11:32 FROGGS :/
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11:41 TimToady FROGGS: Arkansas
11:41 lizmat oops
11:42 lizmat AZ is Arizona, right ?
11:42 TimToady yup
11:42 lizmat FROGGS: sorry for the FUD
11:42 lizmat errands&
11:42 nine I'd hope that TimToady visiting Arizona would not instill fear :)
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11:43 FROGGS Arrr! :o)
11:44 grondilu std: my Real %{Int}; # testing anonymous typed hashes
11:44 camelia std fc92e1e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 142m␤»
11:44 grondilu m: my Real %{Int}; # testing anonymous typed hashes
11:44 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/SBgaMBykC_�Unsupported use of %{Int}; in Perl 6 please use %Int�at /tmp/SBgaMBykC_:1�------> [32mmy Real %{Int}[33m�[31m; # testing anonymous typed hashes[0m�»
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11:51 dalek nqp-js: 489db46 | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/ (3 files):
11:51 dalek nqp-js: A tiny bit of progress on deserializing objects.
11:51 dalek nqp-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/nqp-js/commit/489db46fa0
11:51 dalek nqp-js: 9158711 | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/nqp-runtime/ (2 files):
11:51 dalek nqp-js: A tiny bit more progress.
11:51 dalek nqp-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/nqp-js/commit/915871132c
11:51 dalek nqp-js: c2f2d39 | (Pawel Murias)++ | / (6 files):
11:51 dalek nqp-js: Wrap subs in a CodeRef object.
11:51 dalek nqp-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/nqp-js/commit/c2f2d39fa5
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11:55 * TimToady -> LA (the state, not the city)
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11:59 nwc10 TimToady: implying that you've made it past Texas?
12:00 nwc10 I honestly don't know if Texas is a hard place to get out of
12:06 nine I sometimes have the feeling that Perl 6 is overengineered and overcomplicated. But then I just tried to explain to a developer the difference between a function call and a method call in Perl 5 and why you should never call a method as a function without the prefixed $self->.
12:12 dalek nqp-js: ac78dbd | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/nqp-runtime/ (2 files):
12:12 dalek nqp-js: Start of methods support.
12:12 dalek nqp-js:
12:12 dalek nqp-js: knowhow Foo {
12:12 dalek nqp-js:     method lol() {
12:12 dalek nqp-js:         say("yay, this works");
12:12 dalek nqp-js:     }
12:12 nine OTOH Perl 5 seems very consistent in that it's always the user deciding what something is: sub foo {} foo() # a function; $self->foo() # a method; Foo->foo() # a static method. $a + $b # numbers! $a . $b # strings!
12:12 dalek nqp-js: }
12:12 dalek nqp-js: Foo.lol();
12:12 dalek nqp-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/nqp-js/commit/ac78dbd1dd
12:16 FROGGS nine: foo bar # method!
12:16 FROGGS (static, even, maybe)
12:16 nwc10 are you sure? I think it ends up depending whether bar has been opened as a file handle
12:17 nine FROGGS: you mean indirect object syntax?
12:17 FROGGS nine: yes
12:17 FROGGS nwc10: that's not restricted to filehandles, is it?
12:17 nine FROGGS: well that's still the caller deciding, not the writer of the sub
12:18 nwc10 FROGGS: I can't remember. I know that there are various bits of syntax which are determined by heuristics, and I (a) can't remember exactly which syntax (b) can't remember exactly what the heuristics are
12:18 FROGGS nine: which leaves room for confusion and errors
12:18 nwc10 but it's ugly
12:18 FROGGS perl -E 'package Foo { sub bar { say 42 } }; bar Foo'
12:18 FROGGS 42
12:18 nine In Perl 6 we still have operators deciding the operation. $a + $b will always be an addition, not string concatenation. But a method is a method and cannot be called as a function anymore.
12:20 nwc10 perl -E 'sub Foo::bar { say 42 }; bar Foo'
12:20 nwc10 42
12:20 FROGGS nine: which is good IMO
12:20 nine In Perl 5 it's the -> operator deciding. There's no method without the method call operator. All in all very consistent. Ugly (in the case of indirect object syntax), surprising to foreigners, but at least consistent.
12:20 nwc10 $ perl -E 'open bar, "</dev/null"; sub Foo::bar { say 42 }; bar Foo'
12:20 nwc10 Bareword found where operator expected at -e line 1, near "bar Foo" (Do you need to predeclare bar?)
12:20 nwc10 syntax error at -e line 1, near "bar Foo
12:20 nwc10 "
12:20 nwc10 Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
12:25 FROGGS nine: I prefer introspection over using methods as subs... so there must be some distinction
12:26 FROGGS though, you can kinda mix them:
12:26 FROGGS m: class Foo { method bar is export { say 42 } }; import Foo; bar(Foo)
12:26 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«42␤»
12:26 FROGGS (only kinda)
12:26 nine FROGGS: the bottomline probably is: language design is really hard.
12:27 FROGGS very very true
12:27 nine Though I like Perl 5's consistency in this regard, I've a hard time explaining to the beginner :)
12:27 FROGGS I have the feeling though that Perl 6 is easier to learn, because it has less warts
12:28 FROGGS but... rakudo has other Stolpersteine
12:29 nine FROGGS: maybe. At the same time I _still_ don't know how to pass on a variable list of parameters to another function call. And all the talk about Parcels, Captures and slurpy arguments and | and * and whatnot does not make it easier. In Perl 5 it's sub foo { my ($self, $foo, @rest); bar(@rest); } and I'm done.
12:29 FROGGS like, try to explain this wart:
12:29 FROGGS perl -E 'say 1 .beer'
12:29 FROGGS 1beer
12:30 FROGGS nine: true... it always felt like there were to many array-ish primitives for example
12:30 nine FROGGS: that's why _everyone_ repeats the use strict; use warnings; mantra to newbies.
12:31 FROGGS maybe it will be the default in 5.30 :o)
12:31 nine Sure list context still bites me after 15 years of Perl, but at least it's a simple concept.
12:32 nine And it never bites me when passing parameters. Just on return values of functions.
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12:43 rjbs Yow, I don't have this channel on auto-rejoin.  For shame.
12:44 timotimo meep meep
12:45 [Coke] r: sub a($a,$b,$c,$d) { say "$a $b $c $d" } ; my @things=3,4; a(1,2,|@things);
12:45 camelia rakudo-jvm 85c4c0: OUTPUT«Can't call method "syswrite" on an undefined value at /home/p6eval/jvm-rakudo/eval-client.pl line 32.␤»
12:45 camelia ..rakudo-{parrot,moar} 85c4c0: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4␤»
12:46 [Coke] mnemonic: | flattens
12:47 FROGGS[mobile] and * is for Whatever I shall get
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12:50 nine but there's also @things.list?
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12:51 [Coke] r: my @things=1,2; { |@.things }.perl.say
12:51 camelia rakudo-jvm 85c4c0: OUTPUT«Can't call method "syswrite" on an undefined value at /home/p6eval/jvm-rakudo/eval-client.pl line 32.␤»
12:51 camelia ..rakudo-{parrot,moar} 85c4c0: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Variable @.things used where no 'self' is availableâ�¤at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤------> [32mmy @things=1,2; { |@.things[33mâ��[31m }.perl.say[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        st…»
12:51 FROGGS that does not flatten
12:52 [Coke] ^^ | isn't valid generically, I don't think.
12:52 FROGGS m: my @things=1,2; { |@things }.perl.say
12:52 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/w8ttO3OGl3�Variable '&prefix:<|>' is not declared�at /tmp/w8ttO3OGl3:1�------> [32mmy @things=1,2; { [33m�[31m|@things }.perl.say[0m�»
12:52 FROGGS [Coke]: only valid in a call/return
12:53 [Coke] right.
12:54 nine There's also:  method postcircumfix:<( )>(\args) {
12:54 nine $.perl5.execute($.ptr, |args);
12:54 nine }
12:54 nine and: -> \self, |args {
12:54 nine $.parent.perl5.invoke($package, $.parent.ptr, $name, self, args.list);
12:54 nine }
12:55 nine That's already three different and non-interchangeable ways to pass on those parameters
12:55 [Coke] |args is the same as @args as far as flattening.
12:55 [Coke] er:
12:56 [Coke] |args is the same as |@args as far as flattening.
12:56 [Coke] (the lack of the @ is a separate issue)
12:59 nine As far as I understood there's differences in how named arguments are handled.
13:00 gtodd nine: hmm is it normally the case in perl that things are sort of more interchangeable  ?
13:01 PerlJam good * #perl6
13:01 FROGGS hi PerlJam
13:03 nine gtodd: you mean the there's more than one way thing? Yes. But in this case it's not exactly the same thing. There are subtle differences. And subtlety makes learning harder.
13:03 gtodd yes
13:03 nine Of course most people probably don't learn a language by writing a generic bridge to another language :)
13:04 nine So my hurdles where quite a bit different to the usual ones I'd guess.
13:04 PerlJam nine: actually .... I bet they do.  It's just the bridge live in their head :)
13:04 gtodd otoh once you learn something like perl5's idea of "context "  you have new powers :-)
13:04 gtodd even though context is hard for beginners
13:05 gtodd nothing matters now though ...  since  " #cyber attacks start to exploit #Shellshock bug and threaten critical infrastructure  "
13:05 PerlJam gtodd: context is hard for experts sometimes too  :)
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13:05 gtodd true
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13:08 timotimo i'm actually not entirely sure why method postcircumfix:<( )> takes a single argument named args
13:08 timotimo the \ just says "i don't want to impose a sigil on this variable"
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13:26 [Coke] I would say not impose context.
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13:38 timotimo right
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14:11 grondilu m: role A { multi method gist(A:) { "A!" } }; say 1 but A;
14:11 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«Ambiguous call to 'gist'; these signatures all match:␤:(Numeric:D: *%_)␤:(A: *%_)␤  in sub say at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:15503␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/HGoXy7liH4:1␤␤»
14:11 grondilu m: role A { multi method gist { "A!" } }; say 1 but A;
14:11 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«A!␤»
14:12 jnthn grondilu: And that's the reason that the invocant type is generic in roles ;)
14:14 * grondilu doesn't quite understand
14:14 grondilu does that mean I should never use invocant polymorphism for roles?
14:15 dalek Inline-Perl5: aa27ba0 | moritz++ | lib/Inline/Perl5.pm6:
14:15 dalek Inline-Perl5: Cache path to p5helper.so in a state variable
14:15 dalek Inline-Perl5: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5/commit/aa27ba0f2f
14:15 grondilu the thing is I had a subset of a role, and I wanted a specific gist for this subset
14:15 dalek Inline-Perl5: b639c31 | moritz++ | lib/Inline/Perl5.pm6:
14:15 dalek Inline-Perl5: remove exception type that is not used anymore
14:15 dalek Inline-Perl5: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5/commit/b639c319ca
14:15 grondilu It didn't quite work, for it triggered the "ambigious call" error
14:16 jnthn grondilu: It's funny you call it invocant polymorphism when it's exactly the polymorphism that you're removing by writing the A there ;-)
14:17 jnthn role Foo { method m() { } }
14:17 jnthn Is really
14:17 grondilu I was thinking of the longuest example:
14:17 grondilu m: role A is Cool {...}; subset B of A where * %% 2; role A { multi method gist { "A!" }; multi method gist (B:) { "B!!" } }; say 2 but A;
14:17 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«A!␤»
14:17 jnthn role Foo { method m(::?CLASS:) { } }
14:17 * grondilu was expecting B!
14:17 grondilu or rather 'B!!'
14:18 * grondilu realises Cool is not needed here
14:18 grondilu m: role A {...}; subset B of A where * %% 2; role A { multi method gist { "A!" }; multi method gist (B:) { "B!!" } }; say 2 but A;
14:18 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«A!␤»
14:18 grondilu m: role A {...}; subset B of A where * %% 2; role A { multi method gist { "A!" }; multi method gist (B:) { "B!!" } }; say (2 but A) ~~ B;
14:18 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«True␤»
14:18 grondilu ^see?
14:19 jnthn Hmm, interesting.
14:20 dalek Inline-Perl5: 6a57058 | moritz++ | lib/Inline/Perl5.pm6:
14:20 dalek Inline-Perl5: be a bit more idiomatic
14:20 dalek Inline-Perl5: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5/commit/6a57058ef8
14:20 dalek Inline-Perl5: 964a9cb | moritz++ | lib/Inline/Perl5.pm6:
14:20 dalek Inline-Perl5: Use a native int for iterating
14:20 dalek Inline-Perl5:
14:20 dalek Inline-Perl5: it might be a bit faster
14:20 dalek Inline-Perl5: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5/commit/964a9cbe64
14:21 Woodi hallo #perl6 :)
14:21 jnthn grondilu: Yeah, that one surprises me a bit. I mean, I know it wil pick the subset apart into a nominal part and a constraint part.
14:22 jnthn grondilu: I *think* it could be a bug that you don't get B there. I can't think about a bunch of stuff that happens, but none of it seems to explain the B candidate not winning.
14:25 Woodi it's good shellbleed was uncovered now :)  but seence ~2001 when libresolver from always-buggy-BIND DNS soft was uncovered I just assume all things are remote hackable :)
14:25 Woodi and, sadly, perl5 is not exception...
14:27 Woodi but I have perl6-redis library a bit unrotted, I need to put it on github or something to share ?
14:27 jnthn Woodi: Github is the place most modules live
14:28 nine moritz++ # cleaning up
14:29 Woodi sorry, I just need to learn git usage... i have git cloned repo on disk but not in github ? i need to clone from source on github and then somehow merge local changes ?
14:30 moritz Woodi: does the repo already exist on github?
14:30 Woodi not on my account
14:31 moritz Woodi: then you should probably fork it into your account on github
14:31 moritz Woodi: and then in your local copy, run 'git remote add woodi <url to your github repo>'
14:32 moritz Woodi: and then you can 'git push woodi master', for example, to push your local master branch to your new github repo
14:32 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 6b5b81d | coke++ | log/ (15 files):
14:32 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
14:32 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/commit/6b5b81dd60
14:32 Woodi that's a moment when incantations starts :) ok, i will try. thank you very much :)
14:32 dalek Inline-Perl5: 0762b31 | moritz++ | lib/Inline/Perl5.pm6:
14:32 dalek Inline-Perl5: hide handle_p5_exception from backtraces
14:32 dalek Inline-Perl5: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5/commit/0762b31834
14:32 dalek Inline-Perl5: d6fe199 | moritz++ | lib/Inline/Perl5.pm6:
14:32 dalek Inline-Perl5: micro optimizations
14:32 dalek Inline-Perl5:
14:32 dalek Inline-Perl5: I think that return at the end of a routiine is not optimized out
14:32 dalek Inline-Perl5: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5/commit/d6fe1990cd
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14:41 nine moritz: regarding d6fe199: as Inline::Perl5 is bound to be slow in any case I'm not sure if reducing readability for slightly better performance is really worth it.
14:43 moritz nine: if you find it less readable this way, feel free to revert it
14:44 dalek panda: 2a0f08f | (Tobias Leich)++ | lib/Panda/ (3 files):
14:44 dalek panda: use $*DISTRO.is-win instead of $*OS
14:44 dalek panda:
14:44 dalek panda: The usage of $*OS was buggy anyway because it gives "mswin32" instead "MSWin32" nowadays.
14:44 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/2a0f08f44e
14:44 moritz nine: I'm quite used to the last-value-returned thing
14:45 nine moritz: missing explicit return statement is a level 5 (highest) issue in perlcritic. Mostly because it's often surprising what ends up as being the last value evaluated.
14:46 nine But I better get back to fixing those bugs I just discovered ;)
14:48 timotimo i seem to recall FROGGS worked on "remove return at the very end of a statementlist" optimization
14:49 dalek panda: 51fc726 | (Tobias Leich)++ | lib/Panda.pm:
14:49 dalek panda: create tempdir so we do not rely on git doing it
14:49 dalek panda:
14:49 dalek panda: Seems like git on windows does not want to do it, so we do instead.
14:49 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/51fc726008
14:49 FROGGS timotimo: no...
14:49 FROGGS I just stripped it from some internal subs/methods :o)
14:49 FROGGS I've never implemented an optimization, really
14:50 timotimo oh
14:50 timotimo it kind of sounds like a simple optimization to do, no?
14:51 jnthn I thought somebody did it...
14:51 jnthn Maybe it was moritz++? :)
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14:53 nine jnthn: if it were moritz, he wouldn't have stripped the return from Inline::Perl5's methods ;)
14:53 jnthn oh...good point
14:53 jnthn <== tired :)
14:53 moritz I'm sure it was discussed a few weeks ago
14:53 dalek star: 7b959aa | (Tobias Leich)++ | modules/panda:
14:53 dalek star: use a panda that also works on windows
14:53 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/7b959aa766
14:54 moritz and I mentioned that it has to be aware of lexical overrides of &return
14:54 moritz m: my &return = -> $x { $x * 2 }; sub a { return 21 }; say a
14:54 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«42␤»
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14:58 timotimo .tell japhb when we are fast enough or use a sufficiently high --enough-time, won't the benchmarks that do native integer loops overflow their counter and infinitely loop?
14:58 yoleaux timotimo: I'll pass your message to japhb.
14:59 jnthn timotimo: On 64-bit?
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15:00 jnthn timotimo: I think I once calcuated how long it'd take for a C program doing x++ on a 64-bit integer to overflow
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15:01 nine Could there be some limit to levels of callbacks NativeCall survives?
15:02 brrt i think i tried that too and it's far longer than you would imagine
15:02 jnthn timotimo: And, uh, I'm pretty sure that unless anti-aging technology comes a long way we don't need to worry about it during our lifetimes :P
15:03 timotimo OK :)
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15:08 leont Hehe. Reminds me of certain cryptographic cases, where "we couldn't brute force this if all atoms in the universe were trying a million keys per second until the heat-death of the universe"
15:08 timotimo right, that's a thing
15:09 jnthn It's not *that* big a value, but it's quite some orders of magnitude beyond where we need to be worrying about perl6-bench overflowing it :)
15:10 dalek star: b79eb13 | (Tobias Leich)++ | tools/build/panda-state.p6:
15:10 dalek star: just try to mkdir (in case it exists)
15:10 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/b79eb13811
15:10 jnthn FROGGS: Does that fix the annoying long-standing windows panda bug I occasionally see? :)
15:11 FROGGS jnthn: yes, panda actually works now :o)
15:11 PerlJam I don't know what optimizations have been done this week, but whatever it is, is awesome
15:12 denis_boyun_ joined #perl6
15:12 FROGGS jnthn: and it knows what is installed, so it won't reinstall shipped modules just because
15:12 FROGGS PerlJam: there were any?
15:13 PerlJam I have a one-liner that processes a large file.  When I ran it earlier in the week it took 10 minutes.  Today I ran it again (because I wanted to see the difference between with jit and without jit) and without jit it took ~4 minutes.
15:13 PerlJam with jit its just shy of 3 minutes
15:14 FROGGS that might have been lizmat++, though I'm not sure :o)
15:14 PerlJam yeah, I think so too
15:14 lizmat PerlJam: you might want to sprinkle in :eager if you're using lines or words  :-)
15:15 moritz FROGGS++ optimized match object creation, no?
15:15 FROGGS hehe, well
15:16 moritz and jnthn++ optimized Array.push
15:16 FROGGS that did not improve anything... .MATCH is not slightly slower than before
15:16 FROGGS now*
15:16 FROGGS damn fat fingers
15:16 PerlJam well, my one liner is using slurp, comb, match, map, and substr.  Something in there got faster.
15:18 lizmat PerlJam: I would think match then, in that case
15:22 b2gills Is there a good reason `* + *` doesn't just return `&infix:<+>`
15:24 PerlJam b2gills: what do you mean "return"?
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15:25 moritz b2gills: there's a reason, but probably not a good one: the type should be WhateverCode, not Sub
15:26 moritz b2gills: also, &infix:<+> is a multi that supports separate arities; *+* must accept exactly two arguments
15:26 moritz m: say &infix:<+>()
15:26 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«0␤»
15:26 moritz m: say &infix:<+>(42)
15:26 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«42␤»
15:26 moritz m: say &infix:<+>(20 + 22)
15:26 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«42␤»
15:26 moritz m: say &infix:<+>(20,  22)
15:26 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«42␤»
15:27 jnthn Those are quite good reasons :)
15:27 b2gills moritz: I thought about that immediately after posting.
15:27 jnthn I don't think we cache whatever closures
15:27 jnthn and compile a differnet one each time
15:28 jnthn Which is perhaps vaguely naive at first, but probably means the dynamic optimizer has a good shot at inlining.
15:28 jnthn (Since types at a given usage site tend to vary little)
15:29 jnthn So perhaps we needn't worry about the cost of the extra level of call :)
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15:33 timotimo http://t.h8.lv/p6bench/2014-09-26-many_rakudos_history_nop5.html - updated to go back to january
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15:37 b2gills I think in something like  `@array.map( sub ($a,$b) returns Int { $a + $b } )` map could check the .returns method of the sub to help determine that the resultant list would have the same .infinate value as the @array.
15:41 b2gills and it would be good if `@array.map(*+*)` could too.
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15:53 moritz b2gills: that's not quite sound reasoning
15:53 moritz b2gills: and infinite list can be mapped with a sub that returns Int, and returns a finite list by calling "last"
15:56 gtodd see RT #122810
15:56 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=122810
15:56 gtodd moritz: I wrote a "test" that works for that bug
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15:58 gtodd moritz: well something that fails for the old build and works for post jnthn fix to not flatten args to bags
15:58 gtodd errrm Bags.new
15:59 moritz gtodd: does it need anything more than the bag() call?
15:59 b2gills moritz: in the general case yes. Perhaps the compiler can annotate the sub indicating it doesn't appear to do things like that
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16:05 gtodd moritz: it builds a big array as per your hint/recipe from yesterday ... but I have no idea where to put it or if the test is really needed in this case or not ... since it fails  which then just confirms his fix (??)  maybe  roast/S03-operators/bag.t ?
16:06 b2gills moritz: Perhaps it is rather far off before such a minor optimization is worthwhile
16:06 gtodd moritz:  I had something like this:
16:06 gtodd lives_ok { (bag @large_arr.words).pairs.sort(*.value).reverse[^5] } , "large array goes into a bag";
16:06 b2gills left #perl6
16:07 gtodd with  ....   my @large_arr = ('a'...*)[^50000] ;   in there somewhere
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16:10 [Coke] https://github.com/mrhdias/perl6-GD/issues/3 - GD build busted.
16:12 gtodd moritz:  here it would fail at ^49151 ...   largish, but I thought the test should really be more to see that Bags can handle a large array as args .... now that jnthn made ir so Bag args aren't flattened that fixes the issue but it's not what we'd want test for. This issue could have been Moar backend related (this wasn't breaking under jvm or parrot )
16:13 FROGGS [Coke]: mrhdias is not very active btw
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16:16 gtodd moritz: I will see if I can simplify the failing case ... and then I guess make a pull request on bag.t ?
16:17 moritz gtodd: or push it directly... what's your github username?
16:18 gtodd grtodd likely :-)
16:20 moritz gtodd: then you can already push directly to perl6/roast
16:22 gtodd ok thanks
16:28 [Coke] (duplicate RTs) there i s a way to combine multiple RTs into a single ticket.
16:30 moritz "Links" -> "Merge into"
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16:48 ab5tract ahoy #perl6!
16:48 FROGGS hi ab5tract
16:49 ab5tract i'm currently hacking on a small HTML parsing library
16:50 ab5tract and just wanted to double check that i am not duplicating efforts
16:51 FROGGS I am working on XML::LibXML wich can do that too
16:52 tony-o i started on an XML::LibXML because i saw a squirrel ;-)
16:52 tony-o and quit because^
16:52 Psyche^ joined #perl6
16:52 FROGGS *g*
16:52 tony-o there is a pp6 HTML Parser tho
16:52 tony-o and i'm happy to take pulls ab5tract
16:53 tony-o or if you rewrite it better i'll transfer the repo to you
16:54 tony-o ab5tract: https://github.com/tony-o/perl6-html-parser-xml
16:54 dalek roast: 6cb7067 | moritz++ | S03-operators/misc.t:
16:54 dalek roast: fix test plan for S03-operators/misc.t
16:54 dalek roast:
16:54 dalek roast: a test was removed in 2b143b6f, so need to decrease the plan too
16:54 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/6cb70671e3
16:56 [Coke] 12:54 < [Coke]> yay, GD fixed.
16:56 [Coke] 12:55 < [Coke]> looks like someone else submitted a patch for one of the issues back on Jun 10
16:56 [Coke] 12:55 < [Coke]> we should probably change the modules version to point elsewhere, I guess.
16:56 [Coke] 12:56 < [Coke]> or talk it about it, anyway
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17:02 [Coke] FROGGS: if someone reports a bug to star instead of RT, I'd probably move the bug myself and make them a watcher and put a reference in the star ticket.
17:02 [Coke] (ideally) ; we don't make it easy for people to figure out where to go.
17:02 [Coke] (I mean, unless it's already someone we know
17:03 FROGGS [Coke]: I had done that if it was somebody unknown/new, aye
17:03 ab5tract tony-o: thanks for the link
17:05 ab5tract i have something slightly different in mind
17:05 tony-o whatre you up to?
17:07 ab5tract i was thinking of a simple interface that can be used for testing or otherwise munging about with html structures
17:07 tony-o what kind of testing?
17:08 timotimo .tell japhb do you have a good idea for a design that'd let us cover moarvm rakudos before the configure.pl unification?
17:08 yoleaux timotimo: I'll pass your message to japhb.
17:08 ab5tract you could use it to wire up content tests, presence-of-tags tests, attribute values, etc
17:08 tony-o https://github.com/supernovus/perl6-xml-query/
17:08 tony-o there is that one, it sounds like yours is slightly different tho
17:09 tony-o i wrote the html parser so i could plug in html to that module ^
17:09 ab5tract yes, but not much i think
17:09 ab5tract ah, i see :)
17:09 tony-o then i wrote web scraper so i could scraper the webs :-)
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17:10 tony-o https://github.com/tony-o/perl6-web-scraper
17:11 ab5tract nice one
17:11 tony-o xpath would be a much welcomed module
17:11 ab5tract i have a similar plan
17:11 tony-o whether it was PP or lib
17:11 FROGGS XML::LibXML would have xpath support
17:12 ab5tract sorry, i'm not grokking PP yet
17:12 tony-o pure perl
17:12 ab5tract ah
17:12 tony-o FROGGS: forgot about that,
17:13 * vendethiel tried to parse XML yesterday using p6, but eventually fell back to ruby...
17:13 ab5tract FROGGS: how is that going? NativeCall looks super slick, but i haven't gotten a chance to use it yet
17:13 vendethiel though all my other text-processing scripts of that day were written in p6.
17:14 FROGGS ab5tract: nicely, look at:
17:14 FROGGS https://github.com/FROGGS/p6-XML-LibXML/blob/master/lib/XML/LibXML/CStructs.pm
17:14 tinyblak_ joined #perl6
17:14 FROGGS and https://github.com/FROGGS/p6-XML-LibXML/blob/master/lib/XML/LibXML/Parser.pm
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17:15 FROGGS I wanna make 1:1 bindings in the CStructs.pm without much Perl 6 magic, and all the sugar in their packages
17:15 FROGGS or rather classes
17:15 ab5tract makes sense to me
17:15 tony-o does that work so far ?
17:15 dalek roast: d720ab5 | (Graham Todd)++ | S03-operators/bag.t:
17:15 FROGGS ideally one could autogenerate the CStructs.pm, at least partial
17:15 dalek roast: Ensure bag() can take a large Array as argument.
17:15 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/d720ab5371
17:15 FROGGS tony-o: I think so
17:16 tony-o the struct thing was failing when i tried but that was months ago
17:16 FROGGS tony-o: nowadays we have nativecast support, that helps a lot
17:17 tony-o ah
17:17 ab5tract man, NativeCall is wild. perl 6 is totally 'butterflies all the way down'
17:17 FROGGS yeah :o)
17:17 ab5tract loving it
17:17 FROGGS I really wanna steal more stuff from JNI/JNA
17:17 ab5tract i program p5 for my day job
17:17 ab5tract and i love it too
17:17 ab5tract but perl 6 is really special
17:17 FROGGS like adding .alloc and .free to OpaquePointer
17:17 ab5tract "perl without borders"
17:18 FROGGS that's an easy task... but time is limited
17:18 tony-o lol
17:20 dalek perl6-most-wanted: 2e991de | tony-o++ | most-wanted/modules.md:
17:20 dalek perl6-most-wanted: Update modules.md
17:20 dalek perl6-most-wanted: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6-most-wanted/commit/2e991dea30
17:20 timotimo FROGGS: but for that you'd need the sizeof the thing you're representing
17:20 timotimo which is, to my knowledge, what we wanted to avoid doing in the first place
17:21 gtodd moritz: FROGGS: timotimo:  hope that was ok --> https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/d720ab5371 just trying to learn the process without breaking anything
17:21 FROGGS timotimo: aye
17:21 timotimo m: say ("a"...*)[^10]
17:22 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«a b c d e f g h i j␤»
17:22 FROGGS timotimo: NativeCall can unpack into a CStruct, so we must be able to calc its size
17:22 timotimo FROGGS: other than that, you could just use malloc and free. except if you're in C++ land ...
17:22 timotimo what? it is? how is that even possible without the .h file?
17:23 gtodd plus I want masak's cool wordcount golf to continue to work on massive numbers of text files ;-)
17:23 timotimo gtodd: at first glance, that commit looks good
17:23 timotimo fwiw, i've committed at least 20 separate commits that'd break the plan >_<
17:24 FROGGS timotimo: we never have the .h file when we have a native sub that unpacks into a CStruct
17:24 timotimo em, what?
17:24 timotimo how does a native sub unpack? into a cstruct? huh?
17:25 FROGGS class Foo is repr('CStruct') { has int8 $foo } <-- we know how this is laid out in memory
17:25 tony-o does ruby do logging modules right?  is there a good perl one i can port to p6?
17:25 FROGGS we know the offsets for every attribute
17:25 japhb botsnack
17:25 yoleaux 14:58Z <timotimo> japhb: when we are fast enough or use a sufficiently high --enough-time, won't the benchmarks that do native integer loops overflow their counter and infinitely loop?
17:25 yoleaux 17:08Z <timotimo> japhb: do you have a good idea for a design that'd let us cover moarvm rakudos before the configure.pl unification?
17:25 timotimo FROGGS: yeah, but if we have a "is repr('Opaque
17:25 timotimo Pointer') the point to it is that we don't have the has int8 $foo
17:26 timotimo it's opaque, that's what makes it nice to have
17:26 FROGGS timotimo: that's true
17:26 timotimo but it's also impossible to allocate an instance of that thing without knowing the size itself
17:26 FROGGS timotimo: but do we talk about that right now?
17:26 timotimo i thought you were talking about that?
17:26 FROGGS no
17:26 timotimo you wanted to add .alloc and .free to OpaquePointer
17:26 FROGGS true
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17:28 FROGGS pseudodcode: class Foo is repr('CStruct') { has int8 $foo }; my $p = OpaquePointer.malloc( Foo.size-of ); then pass it around or so
17:28 japhb timotimo: If something manages to overflow a 64 bit int during a benchmark run, I think we'll be over the moon with joy.  Remember, if you were running the benchmark on a CPU core that could do 2 ** 32 ops per second, you'd still take 2**31 seconds to overflow a signed counter.  That's a LONG DAMN TIME.  Now 32-bit testing ... yeah, it's plausible we could get a native empty loop running so fast we'd have troubles with overflowing 2 ** 31.
17:29 japhb timotimo: I don't understand your other question.  Context?
17:29 FROGGS timotimo: and .free in case we get a piece of mem from C land *we* are responsible for
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17:30 timotimo japhb: versions of rakudo-moar before 2014.01 require a different set of build steps to compile
17:31 japhb Oh, I see, yes, that's an issue.
17:31 japhb Are versions before 2014.01 sufficiently feature-complete as to be able to run the whole benchmark suite?
17:32 gtodd timotimo: ok thanks
17:32 japhb (That was a known issue, BTW, I just figured 2014.01 was a defensible stake in the ground anyway, so it got deprioritized)
17:32 FROGGS timotimo: also stuff like memset might be useful to have
17:32 FROGGS timotimo: though, I don't wanna add 100 moarvm+nqp ops for that...
17:33 gtodd everyone has a good weekend ... it's supposed to be 25+ degrees and sunny here  :)
17:33 gtodd p6++
17:33 timotimo japhb: not 100% sure
17:33 gtodd o/
17:33 gtodd left #perl6
17:33 ab5tract se of uninitialized value of type Any in string context  in any  at src/Perl6/World.nqp:1702
17:34 ab5tract does this error look familiar to anyone?
17:34 timotimo FROGGS: C compilers already have stuff like "this code looks like it could be replaced my a memset"; we could do this in the jit, too.
17:34 japhb timotimo: you can use bench to extract, then go in and compile manually, then continue testing as normal.  All that's borken for old versions is `bench build`
17:36 FROGGS timotimo: I'll make sure to ask about details before starting to work on that then :o)
17:36 FROGGS for*
17:38 timotimo ok
17:39 Alina-malina joined #perl6
17:39 Alina-malina joined #perl6
17:47 lichtkind joined #perl6
17:48 ab5tract tadzik++; #thanks for rakudobrew !
17:50 timotimo aye, rakudobrew is nice
17:51 virtualsue joined #perl6
17:52 colomon joined #perl6
17:55 timotimo japhb: that's a good idea, i'll do that later today and make some older benchmark runs available in the history comparison thingie
17:55 timotimo maybe i'll add parrot, too
17:56 ab5tract timotimo: i think parrot would be cool to see on there
17:56 ab5tract are you covering niecza?
17:56 japhb (disentangled, composable UI design)++
17:56 timotimo no, i couldn't build it the last time i tried
17:56 timotimo AFK for a bit
17:56 ab5tract :(
17:56 japhb ab5tract: niecza had been working for quite a while, but I think at some point it stopped working on newer mono/.NET
17:57 ab5tract if it were working, how far behind rakudo is it at this point?
17:57 dalek modules.perl6.org: ea26fb6 | asb-cpan++ | web/ (2 files):
17:58 dalek modules.perl6.org: added search box and legend
17:58 dalek modules.perl6.org:
17:58 dalek modules.perl6.org: * added some sort of limited search box using lustjs
17:58 dalek modules.perl6.org: * added icon legend at the bottom of the table
17:58 dalek modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/commit/ea26fb6796
17:58 dalek modules.perl6.org: 22c9446 | asb-cpan++ | web/README:
17:58 dalek modules.perl6.org: added some details about the github token
17:58 dalek modules.perl6.org:
17:58 dalek modules.perl6.org: I didn't know about GitHub tokens. I do now and as the script requires
17:58 dalek modules.perl6.org: such a token, we should mention it somewhere.
17:58 dalek modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/commit/22c9446a09
17:58 dalek modules.perl6.org: 713089c | moritz++ | web/ (3 files):
17:58 dalek modules.perl6.org: Merge pull request #4 from asb-capfan/master
17:58 ab5tract for a while it was ahead in a few areas
17:58 japhb There are a few things it still does better than Rakudo, but I'd say it would be behind on quite a few things -- probably could do most of the perl6-bench suite, though.
17:58 japhb (And current perl6-bench is much more resilient to a compiler failing individual tests, as long as it doesn't infiniloop)
17:59 ab5tract that's good :)
17:59 ab5tract i'm really interested to see the historical data
18:00 ab5tract the evolution of rakudo over time, as told through benchmarks :)
18:00 japhb :-)
18:00 PerlJam sounsd like a good talk for YAPC or something  :)
18:00 PerlJam maybe a lightning talk
18:01 ab5tract PerlJam: i am stewing on a presentation about the history of perl
18:02 ab5tract through the context of "perl" as i understand the philosophy, community, etc
18:02 ab5tract so being able to have such an illustration would be great when discussing specifically the 'rakudo' corner of the perliverse
18:03 ab5tract (oh, and i count python, ruby, and php as all perls ;)
18:03 lichtkind jnthn: ping
18:04 nwc10 lichtkind: I believe that he's gone to bed.
18:04 lichtkind thanks
18:04 PerlJam speaking about benchmarks .... I remember a time I was leery of Perl 5 because it was slower than Perl 4.  That seems so ridiculous today :)
18:04 ab5tract won't spend much time on them, but discussing them provides a very smooth segway into perl 6 syntax ;)
18:04 lichtkind are there mahor changes upcoming the next weeks ?
18:05 moritz lichtkind: I know that lizmat++ is working on some IO changes
18:05 moritz lichtkind: dunno if they qualify as "mahor"
18:06 ab5tract ah, i was not around for that transition! i found perl around 5.004, when i was 15 ... my the time has passed ...
18:10 lichtkind joined #perl6
18:10 [Coke] FROGGS++ # thanks for bugmongering
18:10 timotimo actually, 2013.12 didn't have moar support
18:11 japhb timotimo: Ah, I thought you were looking into that past to compare against old r-j or r-p
18:12 timotimo yeah, i thought so, too ...
18:12 sqirrel_ joined #perl6
18:12 timotimo well, anyway ... i'll do parrot and jvm runs for this evening
18:12 timotimo i'll have a guest crash on my couch over night, so i won't be running the desktop over night
18:13 japhb heh
18:13 japhb So might as well spin up the CPUs and provide a space heater for your guest?  ;-)
18:13 timotimo sadly it also provides a space noisifier
18:14 japhb (quiet computing)++
18:15 * japhb fondly remembers the sudden piece when he got his first workstation with shock mounted everything and wide-bore slow spinning fans ... aaaah.
18:15 japhb *peace
18:16 timotimo oooh
18:22 dalek star: 2a32ff7 | (Tobias Leich)++ | docs/announce/2014.09.md:
18:22 dalek star: add release announcement for 2014.09
18:22 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/2a32ff7bae
18:24 dalek star: 5a050f0 | (Tobias Leich)++ | README:
18:24 dalek star: update release number in README
18:24 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/5a050f0d1c
18:25 molaf_ joined #perl6
18:26 timotimo building so many rakudo-parrots now ...
18:26 gfldex joined #perl6
18:28 ab5tract it seems that on moar i cannot do this when defining a class: has $!answer is Bool;
18:28 ab5tract nor in method signatures
18:28 ab5tract am i doing something wrong or is it broken?
18:29 FROGGS m: class Foo { has $!answer is Bool; }
18:30 FROGGS m: class Foo { has Bool $!answer }
18:31 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
18:31 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
18:31 FROGGS m: say 1
18:31 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«1␤»
18:31 FROGGS m: class Foo { has Bool $!answer }
18:31 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: ( no output )
18:31 FROGGS m: class Foo { has $!answer is Bool; }
18:31 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context  in any  at src/Perl6/World.nqp:1702␤␤Unhandled exception: No exception handler located for warn␤   at <unknown>:1  (/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-1/languages/perl6/runtime/CORE.setting.moarvm:print…»
18:31 ab5tract that's the one
18:31 FROGGS yeah... has Bool $!answer works though
18:31 ab5tract ok
18:32 FROGGS is 'has $!answer is Bool' supposed to wokr?
18:32 FROGGS work*
18:33 ab5tract FROGGS: perhaps not. i thought i had seen it somewhere though
18:34 lizmat lichtkind: the main changes in the coming weeks are mainly under the hood
18:35 lizmat 1. .IO now gives an IO::Path rather than an IO::Handle
18:35 FROGGS under the hood but not "unter Dach und Fach" yet :o)
18:36 lizmat 2. $*SPEC contains the default IO::Spec::xxx class for path munging
18:36 lizmat 3. IO::Path object contains the $*SPEC at creation
18:36 lizmat 4: IO::Handle contains the IO::Path at creation
18:37 lizmat 5. IO::FileTestable role will be usurped by IO::Path
18:37 lizmat 6. file tests on IO::Handle are handled by the IO::Path in it
18:37 dwarring joined #perl6
18:38 lizmat the result: faster file tests, faster IO::Handel.get and .getc (the won't need to check to open the handle at each invocation anymore)
18:38 sqirrel__ joined #perl6
18:39 lizmat FROGGS: no, I'm currently looking at a bug that makes perl6 build ok, but makes it hang on startup  :-(
18:39 FROGGS_ joined #perl6
18:39 FROGGS_ :/
18:40 FROGGS_ I don't like this kind of bugs...
18:40 FROGGS_ I prefere a nice big explosion
18:40 * lizmat neither
18:40 lizmat yup
18:40 AndChat-458964 joined #perl6
18:41 lizmat also, I found out that "handles" doesn't work in the settings :-(
18:42 ab5tract FROGGS: on reflection, i don't think 'has .. is .. ' is in the spec
18:43 FROGGS ab5tract: yeah, would be weird... 'is' outside of a package declaration is just a trait (a subroutine) and not about inheritance or types in general
18:43 ab5tract so: just me doing it wrong then
18:43 ab5tract right makese sense
18:43 FROGGS like it would be confusion to mix it like: has $.foo is rw is Bool
18:44 ab5tract FROGGS: yes that's it! i saw that syntax and assumed i could also use it for types
18:44 ab5tract makes sense in attribute context it doesn't work
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18:51 leont lizmat: filetests sometimes make sense without an IO::Path
18:51 leont Like in fstat and such
18:52 lizmat IO::Path is just an encapsulation of methods, really
18:52 Pleiades` joined #perl6
18:52 lizmat we don't want fstat just on strings
18:52 lizmat "foo".IO.e is the shortest we can offer
18:52 lichtkind lizmat are there also other changes?
18:52 lizmat there's a new .all method on IO::Path
18:53 lizmat that allows you to chain file tests:
18:53 lizmat "foo".IO.all( <r w x> )  would be true for a file that you can read, write and execute
18:53 lizmat actually: "foo".IO.all( <f r w x> )
18:54 BenGoldberg What the f?
18:54 lizmat to make sure it's a "file"
18:54 lizmat and not a "directory" :-)
18:54 lizmat "foo".IO.all( <d r w x> )  would be true for a directory with full access
18:54 BenGoldberg Ok.  I just *had* to say that, though, it just came out... ;)
18:55 psch joined #perl6
18:55 leont Apparently one of the reasons for PHP to skip version 6 is «Version 6 is generally associated with failure in the world of dynamic languages. PHP 6 was a failure; Perl 6 was a failure»
18:56 Pleiades` joined #perl6
18:56 leont :-/
18:56 japhb lizmat, I thought leont was talking about wanting to do: my $foo = open("FOO"); say so $foo.all(< f r >);
18:56 leont yes, what japhb said
18:56 lizmat well, that will work too
18:57 leont It makes sense for IO::Handle to be FileTestable but not a Path
18:57 psch hi #perl6 o/
18:57 lizmat because under the hood, the open() creates an IO::Path for you to be put inside the IO::Handle
18:57 leont Some handles will not have a path, for example sockets
18:57 lizmat why wouldn't a Path be FileTestable ?
18:57 [Coke] Anyone mind if I make my fork the "official" one in the ecosystem? We've had some delays in original author's response to tickets. (pull request fixing a bug unfixed since June)
18:57 [Coke] er, for "GD"
18:58 japhb lizmat: OK, then how about: say so $*ERR.w
18:58 timotimo leont: being called a failure by the PHP community is a strange feeling
18:58 lizmat japhb: lemme check that
18:59 timotimo did they actually end up skipping version 6?
18:59 japhb lunch &
18:59 nine Darn...I think my Perl stack gets corrupted somewhere :/
18:59 [Coke] psch: hi
19:00 psch hi [Coke]
19:01 nine When doing P6 -> call P5 function -> call P6 method -> call P5 function the latter ends up calling a P6 method again although it should only return 1;
19:01 psch i'm still not settled, but wanted to drop by.  moving is more troublesome than was expected.
19:02 FROGGS hi psch
19:02 psch hey FROGGS
19:02 lizmat m: say $*ERR.w
19:02 psch FROGGS: i've had a play with cglobals, and i'm impressed
19:02 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding $s; expected 'Cool' but got 'Any'␤  in sub substr at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4043␤  in method is-absolute at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:14156␤  in method rel2abs at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:14271␤  in method rel2abs at src/gen…»
19:02 FROGGS psch: why impressed?
19:03 lizmat japhb: that *will* work in the future  :-)
19:03 FROGGS psch: by the shortness of the patch?
19:03 FROGGS :o)
19:03 psch FROGGS: because it works and i'm easily impressed :)
19:03 FROGGS *g*
19:04 psch i've played around with building an autocomplete capable REPL via gnu-readline bindings, but doing that completely in p6 land is slow and cumbersome
19:04 lizmat japhb: probably by poking a special IO::Path version into the IO::Handle.$!path slot
19:05 lizmat leont: I'm still working on integrating the sockets...   suggestions welcome (see S16 and S32/IO)
19:10 Mso150_u_n joined #perl6
19:17 timotimo psch: we need a lot more work to make the repl awesome
19:18 timotimo an almost fundamental re-think of the way we do the "pieces of code at a time"
19:18 psch timotimo: yeah, i was really just exploring
19:18 psch in a rather high-level, messy way
19:18 timotimo the "nested scopes" thing ... naaah
19:22 timotimo japhb: how do you feel about putting timestamps in front of the outputs of p6bench?
19:23 japhb timotimo: To give you an idea how it's progressing?
19:23 timotimo and how long things take and such
19:23 timotimo also to help figure out "is this hanging?"
19:23 timotimo "this one has been running for 10 hours now, i don't think it'll finish" etc
19:24 japhb No particular objection.  I thought of something like that a while ago, realized I was just patching over a problem at the time (certain tests running egregiously long), and set about to make that better.  But since I've plucked the LHF on that front, go right ahead
19:24 bjz_ joined #perl6
19:25 timotimo mhm
19:25 timotimo actually ... how do you feel about printing status lines that overwrite themselves with \r whenever something changes?
19:26 timotimo because time -v spams enormously, but without -v it's not as much info as i'd like to have
19:26 lizmat timotimo: only if .t is true, though
19:26 timotimo that's for "is stdout a tty"?
19:26 kurahaupo joined #perl6
19:27 lizmat yes, if there is a human watching most likely
19:27 timotimo m: say $*OUT.t
19:27 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«Cannot find method 'isatty': no method cache and no .^find_method␤  in method t at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:15125␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/KMBQmTd11c:1␤␤»
19:27 timotimo :o
19:28 timotimo i get that locally, too
19:28 lizmat yup
19:28 lizmat I didn't change that yet, I don't think
19:29 lizmat "self.opened && nqp::p6bool($!PIO.isatty)"
19:29 japhb timotimo: Well, we could do the \r trick -- but then we have to do cleanup and trimming when the new line is shorter than the old.  I avoided that in favor of simplicity.  I still like the idea of just timestamps.  Or perhaps turn verbosity into levels (-v, -v -v, etc. in Perl 5 parlance)
19:30 timotimo ah
19:30 japhb lizmat: re: stuffing a magic IO::Path into IO::Handle!path when the handle wasn't generated from a file seems like a serious design smell.  When you can be checking r/w bits on pipes, sockets, and other beasties, pathed filesystems are just one case among many, not the primary case.
19:31 timotimo well, we could just have the "39/64 testing split_string_constant ..." in a line and below that we have a line that displays the current scale and the how many'th time we're running this exact iteration this is
19:32 lizmat japhb: then I suggest you have a look at S16 | S32/IO  and comment  :-)
19:32 nine Ok, I now reduced it to P6 -> call P5 function -> XS -> call P5 function which loops endlessly
19:32 lizmat so far, *nobody* has made *any* comment about it
19:32 timotimo ah, finally that test has advanced to the next one
19:32 lizmat japhb: I only know that the current implementation is a gnarly web of interdependencies
19:33 japhb timotimo: Sure, that could work -- but remember that you have to be careful not to let TTY/terminal emulator scrolling delays and stdio buffer flushing alter the timing of short runs, or you turn the left side of every graph to garbage.
19:33 lizmat and is most definitely sub-par performance wise (especially $handle.getc, which at the moment check whether the handle is opened or not *every* time)
19:33 timotimo oh, hmm.
19:35 japhb lizmat: My apologies.  My work has been approximately as time consuming as jnthn's (this week I've simultaneously had oncall rotation, ticket duty, and performance reviews to write, so basically zero coding time at all, and precious little of *any* personal time until today.)
19:35 lizmat japhb: no need to apologize
19:35 lizmat there aren't many people in the luxury situation that I'm in...
19:35 japhb And I'm off on vacation for a few days after this, so ... I probably wouldn't be able to review until late next week.
19:35 japhb True.
19:36 moritz bartolin++ # tests, closing lots of tickets
19:36 lizmat japhb: so, enjoy your vacation
19:36 colomon lizmat++
19:36 yoleaux 25 Sep 2014 20:09Z <moritz> colomon: the Nonogram failure you see seems to be a genuine MoarVM spesh+inlining bug
19:36 japhb I plan to.  :-)
19:36 prevost joined #perl6
19:37 lizmat meanwhile I'll have leont and others preventing me from making a bigger mess of it than it already is  :-)
19:37 dalek modules.perl6.org: 24c0a75 | moritz++ | web/build-project-list.pl:
19:37 dalek modules.perl6.org: copy js folder to the output folder
19:37 dalek modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/commit/24c0a75d35
19:39 ssutch joined #perl6
19:43 dalek modules.perl6.org: 13d2664 | moritz++ | web/build-project-list.pl:
19:43 dalek modules.perl6.org: do not try to copy now-dead medals
19:43 dalek modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/commit/13d266465c
19:45 ab5tract colomon: poke :)
19:45 Psyche^_ joined #perl6
19:46 colomon ab5tract: not a good time, alas.  sorry!  e-mail me at my id at gmail.com ?
19:46 ab5tract sure
19:47 colomon ab5tract++
19:49 lizmat FROGGS: found the loop
19:49 lizmat initializing $*CWD needed $*CWD  :-)
19:50 FROGGS *g*
19:50 mberends lizmat++
19:56 japhb There's something philosophical about needing to know where you are in order to figure out where you are ....
19:57 lizmat yeah, that was not lost on me... :-)
19:58 Ven joined #perl6
19:58 tadzik ab<TAB><TAB> :(
19:58 tadzik I missed satisfied customer
19:59 colomon joined #perl6
19:59 lizmat m: say nqp::cwd()
19:59 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«/home/p6eval␤»
19:59 lizmat p: say nqp::cwd()
19:59 camelia rakudo-parrot 85c4c0: OUTPUT«/home/p6eval␤»
20:00 lizmat huh, locally I get something else ?
20:01 lizmat *sigh*   -e helps  :-)
20:02 colomon also, isn't your directory path different?  ;)
20:02 FROGGS lizmat: that sounds like it is time for something else :o)
20:02 lizmat :-)  yes, perhaps
20:04 * lizmat goes off for a fresh cuppa
20:10 xragnar_ joined #perl6
20:11 lichtkind lizmat: thank you i hope we can have a talk the next days
20:11 Pleiades` joined #perl6
20:14 dalek star: 5eadd16 | (Tobias Leich)++ | docs/announce/2014.09.md:
20:14 dalek star: update release announcement
20:14 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/5eadd16141
20:14 Ven .seen cognome
20:14 yoleaux I saw cognome 25 Sep 2014 21:55Z in #perl6: <cognome> lizmat++, I am trying to keep pace with your changes. In S32/IO.pod, should not the @text be slurpy?
20:14 lizmat FROGGS++
20:15 lizmat .seen cognome
20:15 yoleaux I saw cognome 25 Sep 2014 21:55Z in #perl6: <cognome> lizmat++, I am trying to keep pace with your changes. In S32/IO.pod, should not the @text be slurpy?
20:15 lizmat selfupping karma  :-)
20:15 Ven take it :)
20:16 dalek rakudo/nom: 1613b0b | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Env.pm:
20:16 dalek rakudo/nom: Remove old parrot wart
20:16 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1613b0bbc6
20:16 [Coke] ^^ fixing that would get you more karam!
20:16 [Coke] ... karma.
20:17 lizmat .oO( karamba karma! )
20:20 njmurphy joined #perl6
20:20 [Coke] ... ay karmaba.
20:21 tadzik ayy lamo
20:21 tadzik er, *
20:23 itz l
20:46 denis_boyun joined #perl6
21:01 FROGGS https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/commit/6b5b81dd608c4f9b357193224d7e4bc0d8eaccae :o(
21:01 FROGGS [Coke]: have you seen that already?
21:01 FROGGS +===SORRY!===
21:01 FROGGS +I see a .git directory here -- you appear to be trying
21:01 FROGGS +to run Configure.pl from a clone of the Rakudo Star git
21:01 FROGGS +repository.
21:02 rindolf joined #perl6
21:02 rindolf Hi all. Shanah Tovah & Gmar Hatimah Tovah to all Perl6ers.
21:03 FROGGS o/
21:09 muraiki_ joined #perl6
21:16 Ven joined #perl6
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21:16 noganex joined #perl6
21:18 [Coke] FROGGS: nope. that sounds new.
21:19 [Coke] btw, https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/blob/6b5b81dd608c4f9b357193224d7e4bc0d8eaccae/log/MoarVM-build.log would be a much easier to read version of "there's a problem" :)
21:19 [Coke] note that when I build rakudo star, I believe I cheat slightly.
21:19 [Coke] (at least, I did when it was just parrot)
21:21 * [Coke] kicks off another build...
21:24 [Coke] ./bin/star.sh: 60: cd: can't cd to MODULES.txt
21:24 [Coke] perl6 tools/build/panda-state.p6 >>MANIFEST
21:26 [Coke] Looks like you broke it with 54b69eba8141785d1839ade4e161e7d06fb6a800
21:26 Mso150 joined #perl6
21:26 [Coke] Is there really a perl6 available in the build process at this point?
21:26 [Coke] (if so, use the full path)
21:35 Mso150_l joined #perl6
21:44 rindolf FROGGS: what's up?
21:47 lizmat FROGGS++ just did a Rakudo * release, what did you do, rindolf ?
21:49 rindolf lizmat: I've posted to /r/writing about challenges facing me in my quest to become the next big author and got quite a few comments.
21:50 rindolf lizmat: and I also came to Emma Watson's defence on /r/TheRedPill.
21:50 rindolf People accused her of being a hypocrite.
21:51 lizmat I'm sure that Emma is really happy with that
21:51 rindolf https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=981378 - and this bug got closed despite the fact  that it's real. the mozilla.org people are unbelievable.
21:52 rindolf lizmat: don't know if she noticed.
21:52 rindolf I don't think she has a reddit.com presence.
21:52 rindolf She's active on Twitter and Facebook though.
21:56 lizmat people close bugs without looking at them all the time
21:56 lizmat the other day, that happened to FROGGS as well
21:56 telex joined #perl6
22:23 lizmat sleep&
22:44 crncosta joined #perl6
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22:57 Pleiades` joined #perl6
23:12 grondilu std: my $x //= do { $x = 1; $x += rand }; say $x; # checking syntax
23:12 camelia std fc92e1e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 144m␤»
23:38 nebuchadnezzar joined #perl6
23:39 tony-o there any known bugs with nativecall & moar?
23:40 tony-o ==> Building NativeCall
23:40 tony-o Compiling lib/NativeCall.pm6 to mbc
23:40 tony-o ===SORRY!===
23:40 tony-o No registered operation handler for 'nativecallglobal'
23:42 arnsholt I think global variables are only implemented on Parrot and JVM
23:44 [Coke] tony-o: you need a newere moar.
23:44 tony-o is that new in nativecall?
23:44 tony-o i had it installed months ago
23:44 tony-o [Coke]: building a new one now :-)
23:44 [Coke] months is a SUPER long time in moar development.
23:45 tony-o i rebuilt moar a few weeks ago
23:45 tony-o just not nativecall
23:45 [Coke] when you configure, try --enable-jit.
23:45 [Coke] (unrelated, but faster)
23:45 [Coke] weeks is probably only kind of a long time.
23:45 [Coke] we don't have a tagging system yet where panda can grab the latest "approved" version for your rakudo or anything.
23:46 tony-o when i run perl Configure?  I don't --enable-jit as an option
23:46 [Coke] one sec.
23:46 [Coke] perl Configure.pl --gen-moar --moar-option=--enable-jit --gen-nqp --backends=moar
23:47 [Coke] assuming you build from a rakudo checkout.
23:47 tony-o thank you
23:47 tony-o i am
23:55 tony-o [Coke]: that worked, ty
23:58 BenGoldberg joined #perl6

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