Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-09-27

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:02 dalek ecosystem: 1bae927 | coke++ | META.list:
00:02 dalek ecosystem: Temporarily bump perl6-GD to my fork
00:02 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/1bae927685
00:04 j4jackj i'm addicted to caffeine.
00:05 j4jackj at least it isn't an opiate, but as you know, caffeine is dependence forming. i honestly don't remember the last time i tried to stop and succeeded.
00:05 * [Coke] drinks a Coke Zero.
00:05 [Coke] it's also got documented benefits. :)
00:06 j4jackj [Coke]: I assume you mean caffeine
00:06 Mso150_l_x joined #perl6
00:06 j4jackj It's got documented benefits, but it has made my life shit in that the few people I can sympathise with about addiction are addicted to some of the worst drugs (H, crack, crank, etc)
00:07 j4jackj It's largely a case of "I don't want to be in this shitty position"
00:07 j4jackj All addictions have a documented harm to society. Mine, caffeine, is fulfilled in ways that make my mum cringe -> harm to society
00:08 j4jackj wat
00:10 tony-o i had caffeine withdrawal in the desert during weapons training, that wasn't fun
00:15 tony-o i went blind for 6 hours or so
00:18 * leont knows a perl hacker who uses powder caffeine, typically won't get out of bed before it has kicked in
00:22 j4jackj tony-o: suriesly?
00:24 tony-o j4jackj: yea
00:25 j4jackj tony-o: did you explain to your dictatorial idiotic overlords that you were suffering from caffeine withdrawals
00:25 tony-o they gave me two big caffeine pills and i was fine for the rest of the 5 months
00:25 tony-o j4jackj: i didn't know what was going on
00:25 j4jackj lawl
00:25 tony-o i was awake inside but i went blind relatively quickly and then slowly lost motor skills and they took me to a corpsman who gave me two caffeine pills
00:26 j4jackj tony-o: that... isn't caffeine withdrawal
00:26 j4jackj sounds like you were doing craq
00:26 tony-o definitely wasn't doing that
00:27 tony-o you have me a little paranoid now
00:27 j4jackj why?
00:27 j4jackj sounds like someone spiked something
00:28 j4jackj tony-o: so, was everything blurred, or was your vision a nothingness?
00:28 tony-o it went through blurry to nothingness
00:29 tony-o as far as i could tell, i was up 18 hours usually over the course of nights
00:29 j4jackj sleep deprivation
00:29 tony-o and there isn't much light in a desert
00:29 j4jackj you shouldn't have been in the army
00:29 tony-o i was in the Marine Corps, i was fine aside from the one time
00:34 tony-o moritz: any reason you stopped working on MiniDBI ?
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02:47 * TimToady now in Rayville, LA
02:49 TimToady and we were never in TX, missed by about 20 feet, since the highway from NM to OK just barely misses the panhandle of TX
02:49 TimToady but we saw the cornfield in the northeast corner of TX...
02:50 TimToady (of the panhandle, that is)
02:51 TimToady saw the Ozarks today, tomorrow will attempt the Natchez Trace, but may be a madhouse
02:52 TimToady er, nw corner of the panhandle, that is
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03:58 jnthn Hello, #perl6
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05:18 moritz tony-o: superceeded by DBIish
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06:37 timotimo o/
06:37 timotimo hey jnthn, you're up late ... or early?
06:38 jnthn timotimo: It's early afternoon here :)
06:38 timotimo oh
06:38 jnthn I got up pretty late today, though
06:38 timotimo i'm quite bad at intuition for timezones
06:39 jnthn weekend = catch up on sleep :)
06:39 timotimo so ... shellshock reminded me that things like rakudo shouldn't introduce terrible security vulnerabilities into programs running on top of it
06:40 timotimo i don't think we've ever done much in the way of security auditing, right?
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06:41 dalek rakudo/nom: 4da10b4 | jonathan++ | src/core/Kernel.pm:
06:41 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix $*KERNEL.name on Windows.
06:41 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4da10b4884
06:41 dalek rakudo/nom: 1986a6c | jonathan++ | src/core/Kernel.pm:
06:41 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix return type violation in $*KERNEL.signals.
06:41 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1986a6cc7c
06:43 jnthn timotimo: Haven't done much in that way, no
06:43 itz eurobsdcon streams up if anyone is interested
06:43 timotimo anything obvious we may be doing wrong at the moment?
06:44 moritz timotimo: regex interpolation uses EVAL, iirc
06:44 jnthn timotimo: We haven't taken sufficiently good care over hash randomization yet
06:44 moritz timotimo: yes, grep for EVAL src/core/Cursor.pm
06:45 jnthn timotimo: As I understand it, Perl 5 has done a great job there, so the knowledge exists in the Perl community on this stuff. :)
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06:51 timotimo sounds good
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06:51 timotimo but these people still need to be won over ;)
06:56 jnthn m: say "",qx/kill -l/.words;
06:56 camelia rakudo-moar 1613b0: OUTPUT«qx, qqx is disallowed in restricted setting␤  in sub restricted at src/RESTRICTED.setting:1␤  in sub QX at src/RESTRICTED.setting:9␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/KTBZIza7E1:1␤␤»
06:56 jnthn grmbl
06:56 jnthn star: say "",qx/kill -l/.words;
06:56 camelia star-m 2014.08: OUTPUT«qx, qqx is disallowed in restricted setting␤  in sub restricted at src/RESTRICTED.setting:1␤  in sub QX at src/RESTRICTED.setting:9␤  in block  at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
06:56 camelia ..star-p 2014.08: OUTPUT«./bin/perl6-p: error while loading shared libraries: libicuuc.so.48: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory␤»
06:57 timotimo :\
06:57 jnthn Damn our security... :)
06:57 moritz I get
06:57 moritz 0 HUP INT QUIT ILL TRAP ABRT BUS FPE KILL USR1 SEGV USR2 PIPE ALRM TERM 16 CHLD CONT STOP TSTP TTIN TTOU URG XCPU XFSZ VTALRM PROF WINCH IO PWR SYS 32 33 RTMIN RTMIN+1 RTMIN+2 RTMIN+3 RTMIN+4 RTMIN+5 RTMIN+6 RTMIN+7 RTMIN+8 RTMIN+9 RTMIN+10 RTMIN+11 RTMIN+12 RTMIN+13 RTMIN+14 RTMIN+15 RTMAX-14 RTMAX-13 RTMAX-12 RTMAX-11 RTMAX-10 RTMAX-9 RTMAX-8 RTMAX-7 RTMAX-6 RTMAX-5 RTMAX-4 RTMAX-3 RTMAX-2 RTMAX-1 RTMAX
06:58 jnthn hmm
06:59 moritz 1) SIGHUP       2) SIGINT       3) SIGQUIT      4) SIGILL       5) SIGTRAP
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06:59 moritz that's what kill -l looks like
07:03 jnthn Cool, seems I've got kernel.t fails on Windows cleared up
07:05 dalek rakudo/nom: 0ee8ce2 | jonathan++ | src/core/Kernel.pm:
07:05 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix $*KERNEL.signals on Windows.
07:05 dalek rakudo/nom:
07:05 dalek rakudo/nom: Means that we now pass kernel.t - or at least all the unfudged tests -
07:05 dalek rakudo/nom: on Windows too.
07:05 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0ee8ce25ff
07:09 dalek roast: f9c7e3c | jonathan++ | integration/advent2010-day03.t:
07:09 dalek roast: Make tests robust to Windows paths.
07:09 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/f9c7e3c784
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07:14 dalek roast: daa28fd | jonathan++ | integration/advent2012-day23.t:
07:14 dalek roast: Make test robust to Windows line endings.
07:14 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/daa28fd29c
07:18 jnthn Is it just me, or can integration\advent2012-day06.t only pass when make install was alreayd run?
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07:19 jnthn oh, no...it should work. Hmm
07:34 FROGGS_ [Coke]: *I* have a Perl 6 available when doing a star release... and normal ppl don't do releases
07:35 FROGGS_ [Coke]: Is there a way to get a Perl 6 on your box?
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08:26 ab5tract FROGGS_: i can build, install, and load XML::LibXML, but when i try to instantiate an object of that class i get this error: 'Malformed UTF-8 at line 1 col 1'
08:28 ab5tract the jvm probably has an equivalent XML parser, but I haven't seen any 'NativeCall-style' examples for perl6-j yet
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08:40 rindolf Hi all.
08:53 masak m: sub hi { say $^something }; hi all
08:53 camelia rakudo-moar 0ee8ce: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/vDTix_vIBE�The 'all' listop may not be called without arguments (please use () or whitespace to clarify)�at /tmp/vDTix_vIBE:1�------> [32msub hi { say $^something }; hi all[33m�[31m<EOL>…»
08:53 masak m: sub hi { say $^something }; hi all()
08:53 camelia rakudo-moar 0ee8ce: ( no output )
08:54 masak rindolf: no output ;)
08:54 rindolf masak: what a bunch of line noise camelia emitted.
08:54 rindolf masak: what's up?
08:55 rindolf It's a great day to die.
08:55 masak I'd rather live to evaluate another day.
08:56 rindolf masak: heh, that's not what I meant by "dying".
08:56 rindolf masak: I meant something like "lose an argument", "Become offended", "Change your mind", "Become convinced", etc.
09:01 moritz none of them are remotely like dying, IMHO
09:01 nine Does anyone here know a bit about XS?
09:01 moritz though people more attached to their opinions might feel differently
09:01 moritz nine: only that it's supposed to be horrible :-)
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09:02 nine I golfed my Inline::Perl5 problem down to pure Perl 5/C. Just posted the question to #perl, but I don't have high hopes of getting help...
09:03 moritz nine: you can try asking on perlmonks
09:04 virtualsue stackoverflow is my favourite
09:04 virtualsue post it somewhere less ephemeral.
09:05 moritz and then maybe post the link in #p5p, there are some folks there who know XS, I hope :-)
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09:06 nine Ok, signing up to stackoverflow. Thanks for the suggestions!
09:06 virtualsue i haven’t look at it since 2007 but i might be able to dredge it back up
09:06 virtualsue xs that is
09:06 nine The following test program segfaults in S_mg_findext_flags: https://gist.github.com/niner/493268db5ba449caef49
09:06 nine When I change "zero" to "main::zero" it works. Does anyone see something obviously wrong in my program?
09:08 lizmat nine: nothing I can see, but then my only XS experience has been a 3 line function
09:08 nine lizmat: thanks for having a look anyway.
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09:23 danaj_ nine: there is a #xs channel on irc.perl.org.  There are some very knowledgeable people there, including bulk88 who is often online.
09:24 virtualsue i still find it surprising that this channel isn’t on irc.perl.org
09:24 masak virtualsue: historical reasons.
09:25 masak virtualsue: I think it was created here by the pugs people in early 2005?
09:25 moritz my back-imported logs go back to Feb 2005
09:26 masak yeah, just checked :)
09:26 masak <feb> autrijus: you're welcome
09:26 virtualsue i don’t doubt that. none of that answers ‘why’, but it’s not important
09:26 masak ^ first IRC-logged thing ever
09:27 masak virtualsue: true, it doesn't.
09:28 lizmat perhaps freenode had better connectivity in TW then?
09:28 moritz virtualsue: pugs came from the haskell comunity, which was based in freenode
09:28 masak oh, that probably factored into it, yes.
09:28 moritz also, breaking out of the echo chamber
09:29 masak in some weird hard-to-pin-down way, it feels oddly appropriate that #perl6 is off irc.perl.org
09:29 ab5tract it was also a "tough time for the Perliverse" (or so it seemed to me at the time)
09:29 masak I say that as someone who thinks that Perl 5 and Perl 6 are not all that different.
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09:30 masak I honestly was not aware of the "tough time" thing until around the time Perl 5.10 came out.
09:31 ab5tract well, it makes it much easier for the curious bystander on freenode to '/j #perl6' without connecting to another irc server
09:31 ab5tract maybe "much easier" is a stretch, but for the lazy folks like me ... ;)
09:32 * moritz wonders if there's a federation plugin for popular IRC servers that makes it possible to mirror IRC channels between different networks
09:34 ab5tract masak: i'm not sure i could pin down when i noticed it... even the initial RFCs for Perl 6 caused a bit of a stir.. but it's also around the time where p5 seemed to cross some arbitrary threshold of 'pariah' in the web development community
09:35 bonsaikitten which is quite confusing
09:35 bonsaikitten I'd rather have some shoddy perl than php :)
09:36 masak yeah, it's odd.
09:36 masak unfortunately, it makes no difference that we here in the echo chamber know this.
09:36 ab5tract bonsaikitten: good point, but i think PHP is where all the folks programming the code that gave p5 a bad rap went when p5 became unfashionable :)
09:36 ab5tract we should map the effects of this herd
09:36 bonsaikitten ab5tract: and sadly they never stopped stapling together things with anger
09:37 Rounin I suppose Perl has become famous for being hard to read
09:37 Rounin The other thing is that when you use a random web server, PHP is already installed
09:37 Rounin I use PHP on my web page for that very reason... Just chuck it in a folder and it starts up
09:37 bonsaikitten Rounin: which flavour of php?
09:38 Rounin Whatever flavour is installed
09:38 bonsaikitten not like they are compatible ... sigh :)
09:38 ab5tract there were a lot of initial efforts strung together with a decade of technical debt.. in p5 that started at a much younger version.. so there were a lot of complete rewrites initiated in languages where programmer output would be, shall we say, more predictable?
09:38 Rounin That being said, I've been here and there on IRC, and Perl seems to have the best community
09:39 masak "best community" is not a safeguard against irrelevance, though.
09:39 masak I mean, it's nice and all.
09:39 Rounin True... One of the other places I hang is #d
09:39 Rounin A very nice language if relevance isn't your criterion though :)
09:39 bonsaikitten perl has sanity
09:39 masak oh, I always imagined the #d community would be nice :)
09:40 bonsaikitten cpan is still by far the most engineered package mangling system for a language
09:40 ab5tract i have really high hopes for what Perl 6 can do for Perl
09:40 bonsaikitten I can't figure out why no one wants to learn from that :(
09:40 Rounin It is quite nice, and still small enough that everybody talks to everybody
09:40 Rounin There's no steering committee with 4 tiers, hehe
09:41 masak ab5tract: for two YAPC::EUs in a row now, I've felt "wow, this thing that we [Perl 6] are doing... it actually matters. and it's starting to show results now, significant ones that can't be had on the p5 VM."
09:41 ab5tract i like how Larry described it in his talk a yapc-year or two ago
09:42 ab5tract of perl programmers as a culture ("forgiving of mistakes.. you've been living with some of my mistakes for 20 years now") :)
09:42 Rounin :)
09:42 ab5tract masak: indeed
09:42 masak notably async/parallel/concurrent and JIT/spesh.
09:42 ab5tract the rapid bootstrapping onto VMs
09:42 ab5tract ... that's not something many languages have "launced" with
09:42 ab5tract *launched
09:43 ab5tract not that Rakudo is not already 'shipping', I mean Perl 6 is already a mature language in terms of years
09:43 masak it took some years of trying, and some generations of compilers, to be fair.
09:44 ab5tract masak: very true. but that is also a point: how many other languages have had 13 years of learning on those terms? before "launch", i mean
09:45 ab5tract and please take "launch" here to mean that ineffible moment where some demo or project comes out that forces people to pause for a moment and take stock
09:45 nine OTOH Perl 6 is in a rather unique position to take its time, because Perl 5 is still good enough to earn real money. And it's still evolving. But it can never evolve to a point to make Perl 6 obsolete :)
09:45 ab5tract nine: well said! :)
09:46 bonsaikitten I appreciate both for what they do
09:49 masak yeah, we keep complaining about the state of the two communities a lot. but I think we have it quite good, actually.
09:52 ab5tract Rakudo is getting to the point where it can really show it's more undeniable strengths against p5
09:52 ab5tract NativeCall vs XS, for instance
09:52 nine note to self: never call a method "one"
09:52 ab5tract the "OH HAI I LIKEZ THIS VM" backend swappability for another
09:53 ab5tract and finally: concurrency :)
09:54 ab5tract not just that it's done, but how it is done, mind you
09:54 moritz nine: I hate it how it we pollute the Any methodspace
09:55 moritz m: say Any.^methods.elems
09:55 camelia rakudo-moar 0ee8ce: OUTPUT«69␤»
09:55 moritz m: say Any.^methods.map(*.name).uniq.sort
09:55 camelia rakudo-moar 0ee8ce: OUTPUT«ACCEPTS Array Bag BagHash FLATTENABLE_HASH FLATTENABLE_LIST KeyBag KeySet Mix MixHash Parcel Set SetHash Supply all any assign_key assign_pos at_key at_pos bind_key categorize classify combinations deepmap delete delete_key delete_pos duckmap eager elems e…»
09:55 nine moritz: and just a couple weeks ago I complained loudly that Python does not allow you to call a method "if", "and" or "not" :)
09:56 masak ah yes, languages with keywords... :)
09:56 moritz nine: well, Perl 6 does allow you to override those methods
09:56 nine Even the Python documentation says that this restriction is just to make writing the parser easier...
09:57 ab5tract nine: btw, when a p5 object is converted to a p6 one, does $obj.^methods work on it as expected?
09:58 moritz ab5tract: nope, it works through fallbacks
09:58 ab5tract makes sense, but damn.. that would have been a killer feature
09:58 nine virtualsue: I found the source of my problem. It's really a plain Perl problem actually. I'm calling a method on a Perl6::Object. This method then calls a function called "zero". But even in plain Perl, perl would look for this function in the current package, which is Perl6::Object.
09:58 ab5tract nine++
09:59 nine ab5tract: if the P5 object is based on Moose/Class::MOP, one could probably hook up the MOPs...
09:59 nine Which just leaves me with the worse: *** Error in `/data/home/nine/install/rakudo/install/bin/moar': munmap_chunk(): invalid pointer: 0x00007fffb80cf820 ***
10:00 nine I got the other problem when trying to golf down this one because I have no idea at all where this is coming from...
10:01 ab5tract true. that would be cool indeed, for going forward. but if it could work on classic classes.. that would be some useful, new functionality that Inline::Perl5 would provide over regular p5 :)
10:02 ab5tract i've never delved too far into the module/class metaprogramming available to p5
10:03 ab5tract but ruby spoiled me on objects that can't express themselves clearly :)
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10:40 nine Oh, seems like the MoarVM crash occurs when I'm trying to call a non-existing P5 method (typo'ed). So I just have to improve error handling.
10:40 lizmat nice one: "Method 'item' not found for invocant of class 'IO::Spec::Unix'"
10:41 lizmat m: say IO::Spec::Unix.^mro
10:41 camelia rakudo-moar 0ee8ce: OUTPUT«(IO::Spec::Unix) (Any) (Mu)␤»
10:41 lizmat Mu has a 'method item'
10:41 lizmat of course, this happens during startup  :-(
10:46 lizmat after adding a 'method item { self } to IO::Spec::Unix:
10:46 lizmat No such method 'dispatch:<.^>' for invocant of type 'IO::Spec::Unix'
10:46 lizmat I think I have a sick puppy  :-(
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11:26 lizmat afk for the rest of the day&
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12:17 nine Python 3: threat or menace? http://lwn.net/Articles/613403/
12:23 rindolf Where's fglock?
12:23 rindolf nine: lwn.net is always too TL;DRy.
12:24 rindolf nine: https://twitter.com/shlomif/status/504931822757638144
12:24 rindolf well, their newswire is fine.
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12:45 pmurias rindolf: fglock is very rarely on irc
12:48 rindolf pmurias: ah, that sucks.
12:48 rindolf pmurias: he's been neglecting Perlito.
12:48 pmurias rindolf: he's working on Perlito5
12:51 pmurias by neglecting you mean he hasn't been commiting as often nowdays?
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12:54 pmurias jnthn: ping
12:54 rindolf pmurias: well, there's a serious bug I reported that was open for months without activity.
12:55 rindolf pmurias: and i'd like to use Perlito to convert https://metacpan.org/release/Games-Solitaire-Verify to JS.
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13:36 moritz and it can't be worked around?
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14:51 jnthn pmurias: pong
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15:04 nine This is getting ridiculous. I can golf down my problem inside the application to a couple lines of code that show that there's clearly something wrong with Inline::Perl5. But doing the same in a test just plain works.
15:05 dalek roast: 534e79d | jonathan++ | S22-package-format/local.t:
15:05 dalek roast: Make a path comparision work out on Windows.
15:05 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/534e79dc0c
15:07 nine jnthn: why does / as separator work in the previous lines, but not on the one you changed?
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15:09 jnthn nine: Because the others aren't used to do a comparison
15:10 jnthn The spectest has become increasingly noisy on Windows... :(
15:12 pmurias jnthn: if the serialized context caching is disabled what will happen? (I'm working on compiling both to js & moar now)
15:12 Ven er, can we escape a space other than `\ `? (in regexps)
15:13 nine jnthn: just wondering because $srcsrc clearly now contains both / and \. But if the test works now, I guess that's ok.
15:14 pmurias jnthn: would it be ok to add some op/way to get the contents of the serialized cache?
15:16 jnthn Ven: I normally quote them
15:16 jnthn nine: Yeah, the test does pass with it...
15:16 Ven jnthn: can you do that in character classes?
15:16 Ven sorry I'm not really being clear
15:17 jnthn Ven: Well, you didn't ask that :P
15:17 Ven :_
15:17 jnthn In char classes, I think \  is the righ tway
15:17 jnthn I can't think of a neater one off hand, at least...
15:18 jnthn pmurias: It's not really caching so much as being able to store the binary data more efficiently in the moarvm bytecode file
15:19 jnthn pmurias: I thought you had a trick for getting the serialized bytecode?
15:21 FROGGS_ ab5tract: can you run the t/00* and t/01* test?
15:24 FROGGS_ ab5tract: I bet the error you get happens when we unpack an xmlParserContext C struct into a Perl 6 object... because this struct has several char* members
15:24 FROGGS_ jnthn: what am I supposed to do today?
15:29 jnthn FROGGS: I dunno, what's -Ofun? Maybe make nativecall more robust on 32-bit, or figure out how we can export size_t and similar as aliases to the appropriate Perl 6 sized type...
15:30 FROGGS hmmm, that sounds -Ouseful enough to tackle (again)
15:30 jnthn Or make MAIN_HELPER only generate USAGE if we need it, since it's a major cost in the forest fire benchmark so far as I can se
15:30 jnthn *see
15:30 pmurias if storing the data inefficently won't break anything I could just use my hack
15:31 jnthn At least, on smaller ieration counts
15:31 FROGGS ohh, that sounds like a nice task
15:31 jnthn Or implement no strict for -e
15:31 jnthn Or implement val() :)
15:32 FROGGS jnthn: I had implement no strict already :o)
15:32 jnthn Oh?
15:32 FROGGS you said it might be the wrong approach...
15:32 jnthn m: no strict; $a = 'omg I did not know!'; say $a
15:32 camelia rakudo-moar 0ee8ce: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/FHidUpZgAZâ�¤Variable '$a' is not declaredâ�¤at /tmp/FHidUpZgAZ:1â�¤------> [32mno strict; $a[33mâ��[31m = 'omg I did not know!'; say $a[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfixâ�¤Â»
15:32 FROGGS jnthn: https://gist.github.com/FROGGS/6f8989611659551dae1f
15:32 tinyblak joined #perl6
15:32 * jnthn looks
15:35 jnthn Hmm
15:35 jnthn Does the spec say somewhere what scope they should have?
15:35 FROGGS I dunno
15:36 FROGGS but I can try to find out
15:36 jnthn OK. 'cus I'm trying to figure out what else I might have objected to :)
15:36 jnthn oh...
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15:37 jnthn It seems to do things in Grammar that looks more like it beongs in Actions...
15:37 FROGGS like adhoc-declaring the variable?
15:37 jnthn Yeah
15:37 jnthn Well, it feels odd doing AST-building in the grammar is all
15:37 jnthn In Actions and World it's OK
15:38 jnthn The stuff in if !$*STRICT { ... } would feel cleaner to me as an auto_declare(...) method call on $*W
15:38 FROGGS yeah, makes sense
15:39 jnthn I think that and the "is package the righ tdefualt" (quite possibly) are all I have though...
15:39 FROGGS ossum!
15:39 FROGGS will report back :o)
15:41 jnthn It appears Perl 5 goes for package scope
15:42 FROGGS aye
15:44 jnthn And I can't find any spec declaration that says something else
15:45 jnthn So, by "5 semantics as fallback" I'll happily accept package scope being used by the patch. :)
15:45 jnthn So, just the refactor and I think that can go in.
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15:46 FROGGS \o/
15:48 Ven m: my @array; @array[0..2] = <a b c>; say @array.perl
15:48 camelia rakudo-moar 0ee8ce: OUTPUT«Array.new()␤»
15:48 jnthn Did tr/// get done?
15:48 Ven Not sure why I get an empty array.
15:48 jnthn m: my $omg = 'bear'; $omg ~~ tr/a/e/; say $omg
15:48 camelia rakudo-moar 0ee8ce: OUTPUT«beer␤»
15:48 FROGGS jnthn: I think so
15:49 Ven m: my @array = ^10; @array[0..2] = <a b c>; say @array.perl
15:49 camelia rakudo-moar 0ee8ce: OUTPUT«Array.new("a", "b", "c", 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)␤»
15:49 Ven sooo, I kinda need the slots to be "pre-allocated" to assign them?
15:49 jnthn FROGGS: Ok; it's listed as undone in le ROADMAP
15:49 FROGGS m: my $omg = 'bear'; say $omg ~~ tr/a/e/; say $omg
15:49 camelia rakudo-moar 0ee8ce: OUTPUT«StrDistance.new(before => "bear", after => "beer")␤beer␤»
15:49 jnthn Ven: I'm a bit surprised by that.
15:49 Ven glad to know it :D/
15:49 jnthn Oh, right, I even remember talking about StrDistance
15:50 dalek rakudo/nom: 4d02272 | jonathan++ | docs/ROADMAP:
15:50 dalek rakudo/nom: Remove tr///; it's been done.
15:50 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4d02272e04
15:51 jnthn FROGGS: There's a "no strict" item in ROADMAP you get to remove later on too ;)
15:51 FROGGS nice :D
15:52 timotimo oh, no strict is actually going to happen?
15:52 FROGGS timotimo: surely
15:52 FROGGS we do whatever our master asks for :o)
15:53 dalek rakudo/nom: ec60114 | jonathan++ | docs/ROADMAP:
15:53 dalek rakudo/nom: Remove a couple of static optimizer tasks.
15:53 dalek rakudo/nom:
15:53 dalek rakudo/nom: These are better handled by dynamic optimization, and indeed already
15:53 dalek rakudo/nom: are by inlining on MoarVM (thanks to spesh) and the JVM (thanks to
15:53 dalek rakudo/nom: invokedynamic). Thus they are not Rakudo codebase tasks.
15:53 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ec60114b79
15:54 FROGGS when we can keep that tempo we'll reach 1.0 this evening!
15:54 FROGGS go go go /o/
15:55 jnthn I noe there is this one:
15:55 jnthn *note
15:55 jnthn 1 ***   basic Perl 5 interop (use, eval, etc.)
15:55 Ven jnthn: do I count this behavior (array assign) as a bug, or is it spcced somewhere?
15:56 jnthn Ven: Looks buggy to me
15:56 timotimo i noe, right?
15:56 jnthn :P
15:57 jnthn Anyway, somebody who has been keeping up with the Inline::Perl5 progress better than I have may want to update ROADMAP in light of it
15:57 jnthn Did Inline::Perl5 make it into the latest Star release?
15:57 jnthn Fine if not, but we might like to get it into the next one :)
15:58 jnthn Also, if anybody has any objects to --enable-jit becoming the MoarVM default within the next couple of days, plesae let me know.
15:58 jnthn *objections
15:58 FROGGS +1
15:58 Ven so long it doesn't break hell loose when p5 is not installed :)
15:58 jnthn Good job I'm IRCing and not coding with this error rate... :)
15:58 jnthn Ven: Good point :)
15:59 jnthn Ven: Though "may not build right even if p5 is installed" is more likely something we need to be robust in the face of...
15:59 timotimo yes please have --enable-jit be the default :)
16:00 jnthn OK, if nobody has objected by the time the weekend is over, then either I'll do it or anybody else can feel free to beat me do it.
16:01 nine Are there other modules with C parts in Star?
16:01 Ven So, uh, any code example with labeled loops?
16:01 Ven the spec has very little of those.
16:01 Ven LABEL.next? where do I put the label?
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16:02 FROGGS jnthn: about the USAGE... I just replaced it by a proxy and before 60 invocations of a script having a MAIN took 30.7s, now it takes 30.0s... is that what you would do too?
16:02 FROGGS jnthn: it generates the usage only once of course
16:03 jnthn FROGGS: Well, I saw if I perl6-m --profile forest-fire.p6 16 16 5, then generating usage was a notable part of it
16:03 liztormato Wrt to "no strict". Do we have a generic lexical pragma framework?
16:03 FROGGS k, will check
16:03 jnthn FROGGS: So I'd try looking at it that way
16:04 liztormato Or is each pragma going to do its own thing?
16:04 FROGGS also, it does some magic to get the basename of $*PROGRAM_NAME... we can do better now
16:05 FROGGS liztormato: for no/use strict we'd put a dynami variable in the parser, so it would be lexically scoped for that reason
16:06 FROGGS maybe we could find a generic approach
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16:06 travis-ci [travis-ci] Rakudo build errored. Jonathan Worthington 'Remove a couple of static optimizer tasks.
16:06 travis-ci [travis-ci] http://travis-ci.org/rakudo/rakudo/builds/36439555 https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/compare/4d02272e0487...ec60114b7983
16:06 travis-ci left #perl6
16:06 FROGGS bad jnthn! :P
16:06 liztormato Disk full I bet
16:07 FROGGS "No output has been received in the last 10 minutes, this potentially indicates a stalled build or something wrong with the build itself.
16:07 FROGGS The build has been terminated"
16:07 liztormato But jnthn only changed some docs?
16:08 FROGGS yeah, it got stuck in nqp
16:08 FROGGS I guess their VM is broken
16:11 jnthn ohnejs what have I done... o.O
16:11 jnthn :)
16:11 jnthn liztormato: On pragmas, I suspect the COMPILING namespace will come into it somehwat, and/or macros...
16:12 jnthn liztormato: For now we can hardcode the ones we immediately need by spec.
16:12 FROGGS jnthn:  MAIN_HELPER is 0.05%/0.4ms inclusive time
16:13 nine Where is the difference between $self = $Perl6::ObjectCreator->create(__PACKAGE__, $self); return $self;  and return $Perl6::ObjectCreator->create(__PACKAGE__, $self); ??? And no it's not context.
16:13 jnthn FROGGS: o.O
16:13 FROGGS jnthn: before my patch
16:14 FROGGS now it is 0.04%/0.33ms :o)
16:14 jnthn FROGGS: Search for gen-usage in the profile
16:14 jnthn FROGGS: On routines tab
16:15 FROGGS 0.01%/0.09ms inclusive time, before my patch
16:15 FROGGS I am running perl6-bench's perl6-m --profile perl6/rc-forest-fire 16 16 5
16:16 jnthn Same
16:16 jnthn gen-usage is 22.5% inclusive here
16:16 FROGGS O.o
16:16 jnthn oh wtf
16:17 FROGGS I can post my profiles
16:17 jnthn If you look at call graph and inside gen-usage, how costly is strip_path_prefix for you?
16:17 jnthn 171.27ms here o.O
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16:17 jnthn what the heck is that doing...
16:18 FROGGS 0.01%
16:18 jnthn OK...
16:19 FROGGS http://froggs.de/perl6/profile-unmodified.html
16:19 FROGGS that's nom without any changes
16:19 jnthn Stripping is expensive on Windows, evidently...
16:19 FROGGS I can fix that... and I will test it on windows too
16:20 liztormato Is it IO::Spec related?
16:20 FROGGS liztormato: sort of
16:21 liztormato Cause I'm sure that will get some more attention from me soon
16:22 FROGGS jnthn: we could use $*PROGRAM.basename instead of the strip_path_thingy
16:22 FROGGS liztormato++
16:23 jnthn OK :)
16:23 jnthn I leave it in the two of you's capable hands :)
16:24 jnthn I was hoping for a nice perl6-bench win from it for forest fire; alas, it will only show up on my (or other Windows) runs
16:24 liztormato Atm basename first splits into 3 parts and then returns one of them
16:24 jnthn otoh, it seems like Windows is the place where Moar compares best against Perl 5, so it can be strategic to fix this. ;)
16:27 jnthn (Also to fix our compiler flags off Windows too, perhaps. ;))
16:28 jnthn (Unless the issue is that something about Perl 5 means MSVC doesn't do so well with it as on GCC, Clang, etc...)
16:28 FROGGS I don't get that about the compiler flags
16:28 FROGGS hmm
16:29 jnthn FROGGS: Well, it's just a bit surprising that when I do perl6-bench on Windows against Perl 5, I tend to be seeing better numbers than folks doing perl6-bench runs on Linux.
16:30 jnthn And it's not just that something is up with the Perl 5 that perl6-bench builds; I get the same figures out of activestate builds.
16:31 FROGGS could also be an issue with activeperl
16:32 jnthn True. Could also be that Moar *has* had a lot of C-level profiing done on Windows, and tweaks applied as a result of that.
16:33 liztormato Afp&
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16:40 FROGGS jnthn: might be more likely :o)
16:51 FROGGS jnthn: I can't reproduce your USAGE weirdness on windows :/
16:55 FROGGS jnthn: http://froggs.de/perl6/rcff-windows.html
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17:33 Ven A: for ^10 { A.last }
17:33 Ven m: A: for ^10 { A.last }
17:34 camelia rakudo-moar ec6011: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
17:34 Ven uh-oh.
17:34 Ven m: A: while 1 { last }
17:34 Ven ^ this segfaults here
17:34 camelia rakudo-moar ec6011: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
17:34 moritz m: A: for ^10 { say "inside the loop"; last A }; say "done"
17:34 camelia rakudo-moar ec6011: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
17:34 Ven moritz: can you confirm both my snippets don't segfault for you?
17:35 nine Will Rakudo always prefer loading a .pm6 over a .pm with similiar name?
17:36 moritz Ven: ./perl6-m -e 'A: for ^10 { A.last }'  neither segfaults nor loops for me
17:36 Ven I'll try to pull.
17:36 moritz and the   while 1 { last }   is fine too
17:36 moritz This is perl6 version 2014.09-50-g5d8eebf built on MoarVM version 2014.09-3-g182085e
17:36 Ven eh. but my p6 is what, 2 weeks old :/
17:37 Ven (my rakudo, I mean)
17:37 Ven get split'!
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17:39 FROGGS nine: yes
17:39 kurahaupo joined #perl6
17:39 nine FROGGS: cool :) Otherwise I'd probably have to use a lib6 directory for Perl 6 modules.
17:42 Ven moritz: still segfaults here. "A: while 1 { last }" I mean.
17:42 Ven This is perl6 version 2014.09-60-gec60114 built on MoarVM version 2014.09-1-g699360b
17:43 Ven in fine, any kind of label usage makes it segfault
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17:51 moritz m: my Int @a = 1, 2, 3;
17:51 camelia rakudo-moar ec6011: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
17:52 vendethiel- m: say "camelia o/"
17:52 camelia rakudo-moar ec6011: OUTPUT«camelia o/␤»
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17:55 vendethiel- m: say 1
17:55 camelia rakudo-moar ec6011: OUTPUT«1␤»
17:55 vendethiel- m: A: while 1 { last }
17:55 camelia rakudo-moar ec6011: ( no output )
17:55 vendethiel- m: A: for 1 { last }
17:55 camelia rakudo-moar ec6011: ( no output )
17:56 vendethiel- wtf?
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18:09 timotimo o/
18:10 vendethiel- \o
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18:15 Ven in my tutorial, I say that "array start with @"
18:15 Ven that's utterly wrong. That should be "lists"
18:16 Ven Is there a list of every call that doesn't flatten?
18:16 Ven I don't want to put "some calls" :(
18:17 Ven # Lists flatten. That means that a nested list, when gone through, will act as a shallow one
18:17 Ven is that correct, both p6-wise and english-wise? :o)
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18:27 moritz lists don't flatten; context flattens
18:27 moritz context flattens lists, or doesn't
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18:37 Ven moritz: that looks like nitpicking tho :)
18:37 Ven also, more people getting bitten by the `$a = 1, 2, 3`
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19:13 Ven moritz: "list context flattens list" reads pretty weird :/
19:14 moritz Ven: sorry, I'm not a wordsmith, just a lowly p6 wannabe-hacker
19:14 Ven did you take my last remark poorly? if so, I'm sorry
19:14 moritz no
19:14 Ven that wasn't the idea. I'm just looking for something rather brieve but still comprehensible
19:15 moritz just telling you that I don't know how to express it better while keeping correctness
19:15 Ven Well, I'm ready to sacrifice a bit of correctness for clarity
19:15 Ven I think you always need to over-simplify when explaining concepts
19:16 Ven m: say (1, 2, (3, (4, 5))).elems
19:16 Ven should be 3.
19:18 camelia rakudo-moar ec6011: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
19:18 Ven eh.
19:18 Ven m: say (1, 2, (3, (4, 5))).elems
19:18 camelia rakudo-moar ec6011: OUTPUT«3␤»
19:18 Ven right. Thanks, camelia
19:22 leont Is there any way to capture a look-ahead?
19:22 Ven leont: don't think so, that's why it's a look-ahead :P
19:22 Ven moritz: "[] is a shortcut for $()" is that "true"?
19:22 Ven Does it matter if it's not 100% correct?
19:22 FROGGS leont: with lexicals
19:23 FROGGS leont: I mean, you can stick something in a lexical inside of the look-ahead
19:23 moritz Ven: it's about 80% correct
19:23 leont Yuck
19:23 moritz Ven: $(...) and [...] both produce a scalar, though [] always returns a mutable array
19:23 leont Then again, I could rewrite this not to need the lookahead
19:23 FROGGS which is ugly of course, and possibly problematic when your rule is called as a look-ahead too
19:24 Ven moritz: Right. Is the mutable VS immutable part the only difference :)?
19:24 Ven I can brush over that...
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19:25 FROGGS leont: there is a rule of thumb that an non alphanumeric character as the first one in a assertion tells it to not capture
19:25 FROGGS like: <?foo> <!foo> <.foo>
19:26 leont It makes sense, but also makes my life more complicated right now :-/
19:27 FROGGS I know that feeling :/
19:29 moritz Ven: no. $(...) just gives you the thing inside the parens, packed in an item. So the type stays the same. [] always create a new Array object
19:29 Ven oh, uhm, right.
19:31 moritz so basically they are only the same from the flattening/non-flattening perspective
19:33 vendethiel- okay, thanks for bearing with me here :-).
19:39 vendethiel- I think I can explain it *correctly*/.
19:48 dalek nqp-js: 4c59811 | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/moar/QAST/QASTCompilerMAST.nqp:
19:48 dalek nqp-js: Refactor the serialization of serialization context in the MoarVM backend.
19:48 dalek nqp-js:
19:48 dalek nqp-js: It makes it easier to monkey patch that part when cross-compiling.
19:48 dalek nqp-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/nqp-js/commit/4c5981159e
19:50 pmurias jnthn: would merging 4c59811 into the main nqp be acceptable?
19:56 Ven moritz:  the only parcel VS list difference (for the user) is the immutability, right?
19:56 Ven When is it a parcel? Only when it's not assigned?
19:59 moritz Ven: also, Lists are lazy, parcels (in rakudo) aren't
20:00 Ven is that by spec?
20:00 timotimo aren't parcels meant to be eager by spec?
20:00 timotimo except i suppose you can put multiple lazy lists into a parcel?
20:00 Ven :-'
20:00 timotimo that'd have to be itemized
20:00 timotimo otherwise the , operator would want to flatten them, right?
20:01 Ven I, uh, don't talk about LoL now, and probably not going to do so for a while
20:01 Ven Still, I don't want the tutorial to be over 2k lines :/
20:01 Ven I think the grammars and regexp stuff would warrant by itself another tutorial
20:03 timotimo :)
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20:11 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 8660454 | coke++ | log/MoarVM-version.log:
20:11 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
20:11 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/commit/8660454802
20:11 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 3113bc6 | coke++ | log/MoarVM-version.log:
20:11 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
20:11 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/commit/3113bc68e3
20:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: 6bf78c9 | coke++ | / (5 files):
20:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
20:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/6bf78c967d
20:12 [Coke] moar, moar-jit, parrot, 1 failure. jvm: 9
20:12 [Coke] S03-operators/misc.t aborted 1 test(s) on all 4 backends.
20:15 [Coke] (but it runs fine on rakudo-moar-jit latest on my mac)
20:16 [Coke] I updated ecosystem. how long until panda sees the new list?
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20:18 tadzik [Coke]: try 'panda update' now :)
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20:36 j4jackj kzzk
20:36 grondilu btw panda --help swaps describtions of 'list' and 'update'
20:36 j4jackj lol grondilu
20:37 grondilu *description
20:37 grondilu (jeez my spelling is getting terrible lately)
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20:49 dalek rakudo/lax: 4f6fde2 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/Perl6/ (3 files):
20:49 dalek rakudo/lax: implement "no strict"
20:49 dalek rakudo/lax: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4f6fde262f
20:52 tadzik :o
20:52 vendethiel FROGGS++ #sloppy code :P
20:54 FROGGS :P
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21:03 bartolin Hi, #perl6
21:04 bartolin [Coke]: The aborted test in S03-operators/misc.t was my failure: I deleted a test and forgot to update the plan. moritz++ fixed that yesterday (but probably too late for your runs).
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21:12 danaj_ I was happy to see one of the RosettaCode tasks that indicated "this test takes a couple hours to run" now takes ~20 seconds with perl6-m.
21:17 vendethiel oooh I still havn't talked of any :o)
21:17 vendethiel and junctions in general. And auto-threading
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23:23 Mouq OSX: perl6 -e'</usr/share/dict/words>.IO.open.get.say'
23:23 Mouq Failed to stat in filehandle: no such file or directory
23:23 Mouq Which is weird, 'cause it seems to work fine for other {sym,hard}links
23:24 Mouq Ahhh, only when in the same directory as the link, though!
23:24 Mouq cd /usr/share/dict
23:24 Mouq perl6 -e'</usr/share/dict/words>.IO.open.get.say'
23:24 Mouq A
23:50 danaj_ Mouq: I noticed that a few weeks ago on my Fedora machine and also thought it was strange.
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