Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-10-10

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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04:04 dwarring r: say (567700/1048575 * 32 ** 40).base(32)
04:04 camelia rakudo-{parrot,moar} d3a284: OUTPUT«HACKHACKHACKHACKHACKH​ACKHACKHACKHACKHACK.HACKHA␤»
04:08 grondilu cute
04:10 dwarring got the idea from here http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/13ny​e1/make_it_stop_make_it_stop_make_it_stop/
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04:15 grondilu can you write the inverse function?
04:16 dwarring r: say (2264129042459209/36561584​40062975*36**50).base(36)
04:16 camelia rakudo-{parrot,moar} d3a284: OUTPUT«MAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTO​PMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOP.MAKEITSTOPM␤»
04:16 grondilu I meant:  string -> number
04:17 grondilu or sub (Str --> Rat) {...}  in proper P6
04:18 dwarring invese in scala and python http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/13nye1/m​ake_it_stop_make_it_stop_make_it_stop/c75qpd7
04:25 dwarring inverse in perl6 https://gist.github.com/dwa​rring/73687cc3c23f067f58da
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06:16 timotimo o/
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06:26 leont_ Morning *
06:26 timotimo oh hey leont_
06:27 timotimo are we going to enjoy breakfast together?
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06:30 timotimo ven and i are ready to go do breakfast right now
06:33 leont_ I'm showering first
06:33 timotimo ah ok
06:34 timotimo we'll wait for you
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06:35 kyun There is any editor for write perl6?
06:36 xiaomiao kyun: you don't need a special editor for it
06:37 kyun I mean a perl6-mode in emacs
06:40 xiaomiao I have no idea, but that's a very different question
06:41 kyun XD
06:41 timotimo well, vim has perl6 syntax highlighting which also sets things like the "identifier regex" or whatever that's called
06:45 kyun Hey, I just need syntax highlighting XD
06:48 Ven kyun: vim is good to go :)
06:49 kyun I use emacs with evil-mode Xd
06:49 kyun XD
06:49 timotimo leont_: just tell us when you're going and we'll make it happen
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06:53 masak hello hello #perl6
06:53 masak ...from...
06:53 masak ...A TRAIN \o/
06:53 timotimo HOW IS IT POSSIBLE
06:53 timotimo could it be a train towards austria?
06:53 mauke joined #perl6
06:53 * lizmat commutes to venue&
06:54 * mauke waves to japhb
06:54 masak in a loose sense, yes. but no :/
06:54 masak I vowed to be present spiritually for the APW and the hackathon -- mostly by hanging around here on IRC and keeping close tabs.
06:55 masak but then, predictably, my weekend gets booked up by well-meaning forces.
06:55 masak I will still do my best to keep up, though.
06:55 timotimo OK
06:55 Ven not nice, teasing us like that
06:55 Ven :P
06:56 timotimo would have been a pretty amazing surprise, but a masak in spirit is nice, too
06:56 masak a pickled masak is nice, too.
06:56 timotimo mhm mhm
06:56 Ven .o( please remove your spiritual hands off of my beer )
06:56 masak anyway, let me start here: https://gist.github.com/masak/ba8196437d1e48809758
06:56 masak please peruse said gist
06:56 masak it's my take on "how production ready is perl 6?"
06:57 masak modeled after http://html5please.com/ -- I really like that page for its simplicity-yet-detail
06:57 Ven .o( there is web support, but where is air support? )
06:57 bartolin joined #perl6
06:57 masak what's missing from my gist is some future milestones, marked by XXX
06:58 masak also, there needs to be a rigorous explanation of what each thing *is*
06:58 japhb mauke: Sorry, was backlogging.  :-)
06:58 masak for example, people who I've shown it to aren't 100% clear on what the difference is between "Learning materials" and "Onramps"
06:58 leont_ timotimo: down in 5
06:58 timotimo aha!
06:58 masak the difference is clear-ish to me, but it needs to be explained
06:59 masak and so do all of them, really, to give some context
06:59 dalek roast: eeb03d5 | usev6++ | S32-array/delete.t:
06:59 dalek roast: Refine test for RT #116695
06:59 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/eeb03d5621
06:59 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=116695
07:00 masak by the way, for the milestones, what I'm looking for is a kind of "observable" that is either objectively true/false, or so nearly so that it's not the subject of intense debate.
07:02 masak oh, and I hope it doesn't need saying, but: I don't purport to be "official" or "single source of truth" in any way. I just happen to think we need this kind of framework to orient ourselves in the direction of production-readiness.
07:02 japhb masak: I like the format, and generally agree with what you've got so far.
07:02 masak other people are welcome to evolve other frameworks -- or help with this one.
07:02 masak japhb: cool! patches welcome.
07:03 * japhb is still attempting to fully activate his brain -- patches might be a tad delayed.  :-)
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07:04 masak in fact, maybe I should transfer what I have to a github repository instead.
07:06 masak done -- https://github.com/masak/p​erl6-production-readiness
07:06 masak redirecting gist.
07:06 japhb Not a bad idea, though a gist already *is* a repo.  Just doesn't look like one.  :-)
07:08 masak japhb: oh, I know. I used that when I moved it.
07:09 masak japhb: but this way, I can accept PRs and/or add collaborators.
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07:11 dalek specs: 8702be6 | (Helmut Wollmersdorfer)++ | S15-unicode.pod:
07:11 dalek specs: graphemes confirm to Unicode Grapheme Cluser Boundaries extended
07:11 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/8702be6188
07:11 dalek specs: 625f5d5 | (Helmut Wollmersdorfer)++ | / (13 files):
07:11 dalek specs: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/specs
07:11 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/625f5d5f71
07:12 japhb masak: Fair enough.
07:13 masak I will keep making improvements during the day, hopefully.
07:13 japhb I wonder if there's a way to actually get an alert on my mac when I get highlighted in my ssh'ed irssi session ...
07:14 Mouq joined #perl6
07:14 moritz masak: there seems to be no mention of some kind of reference documentation a la doc.perl6.org
07:15 masak moritz: I think I mentally included that under "Onramps" -- i.e. people who learn on their own with the materials available off the web and on IRC.
07:16 masak moritz: adding it to the description of "Onramps" for now.
07:17 masak moritz: if you have a suggestion for a better name for this than "onramps", I'm listening :)
07:20 moritz "Learning facilities"? "Ways to get started"?
07:20 * moritz isn't good with naming
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07:21 azawawi .tell PerlJam finally found an example @ https://github.com/perl6/roast/b​lob/master/S17-procasync/print.t . Thanks :)
07:21 yoleaux azawawi: I'll pass your message to PerlJam.
07:26 dalek specs: 05b6dfd | Mouq++ | S15-unicode.pod:
07:26 dalek specs: Fix email links; bump version; ensure valid Pod6
07:26 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/05b6dfddc7
07:26 * azawawi downloads all of jnthn++ YouTube talks for later viewing
07:27 Mouq (Not that the email links actually work, since I still haven't figured out making formatting codes work in tables.. it hurts my head)
07:31 masak moritz: I renamed "Learning materials" to "A Perl 6 Book", and "Onramps" to "Ways to get started". moritz++
07:33 rurban joined #perl6
07:33 masak moritz: oh, and ooc, would you say that doc.perl6.org is "ready", or if not, why not? can the readiness be stated in the type of observable I'm after?
07:33 Mouq masak: Does better Buf/Blob support fall under Unicode?
07:33 Mouq I don't think doc.perl6.org is ready
07:34 Mouq It's very incomplete, and much of the parts that are fleshed out are outdated
07:35 b2gills joined #perl6
07:35 Mouq It's also a tad disorganized yet, in terms of tutorials etc.
07:35 Mouq Where it has them
07:36 moritz I know that doc.perl6.org isn't ready
07:36 moritz but IMHO it's essential to have and improve
07:37 brrt joined #perl6
07:37 BSc_tadzik agreed
07:38 BSc_tadzik do we have anything that's *ready*? :)
07:38 masak yes, we do.
07:38 masak that was one of the surprises of formulating that resource.
07:38 masak on https://github.com/masak/perl6-produc​tion-readiness/blob/master/README.md -- the first three things are READY
07:39 masak and I stand by that.
07:39 BSc_tadzik ohh, I messed that document
07:39 BSc_tadzik I was thinking in terms of docs,vm,compiler,ecosystem etc
07:39 masak we have production-quality general features, grammars and parsin, and object orientation.
07:39 masak BSc_tadzik: right.
07:39 BSc_tadzik that we can both agree on :)
07:39 brrt tadzik has a BSc now?
07:39 BSc_tadzik brrt: aye :)
07:39 brrt very BSc_tadzik++
07:39 masak BSc_tadzik: that's just because we're looking *forward* most of the time, which is sensible.
07:40 BSc_tadzik masak: naturally
07:40 BSc_tadzik brrt: thank you :)
07:40 masak so BSc_tadzik++
07:40 BSc_tadzik masak++ for the document
07:40 lizmat joined #perl6
07:40 brrt yeah, agreed
07:40 brrt inode.at :-)
07:40 * masak ponders whether to reify "VM" or "compiler" or "ecosystem" into headings of their own
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07:42 Mouq m: sub postfix:<rocks> { say "hell yeah!" }; Perl rocks
07:43 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/OCfu2Pz7Wkâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/OCfu2Pz7Wk:1â�¤------> [32mtfix:<rocks> { say "hell yeah!" }; Perl [33mâ��[31mrocks[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfixâ�¤        infix stopper…»
07:43 Mouq m: sub postfix:<rocks> { say "hell yeah!" }; Perl\ rocks
07:43 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tpGVPpPsr7â�¤Calling 'postfix:<rocks>' will never work with argument types (Perl)â�¤    Expected: :()â�¤at /tmp/tpGVPpPsr7:1â�¤------> [32mfix:<rocks> { say "hell yeah!" }; Perl\ [33mâ��[31mrocks…»
07:43 Mouq Aww
07:43 Mouq m: sub postfix:<rocks> ($_) { say "hell yeah!" }; Perl\ rocks
07:43 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«hell yeah!␤»
07:43 Mouq \o/
07:43 masak japhb, moritz, BSc_tadzik, Mouq: I just added you as contributors to the prod-ready document. no strings attached.
07:43 masak anyone who so much as breathes in the direction of the document will get a commitbit.
07:44 Mouq masak++ btw
07:44 Mso150 joined #perl6
07:45 japhb .oO( "I swear if you so much as LOOK at me funny, I WILL COMMIT(BIT) YOU!" )
07:45 moritz the good old pugs policy of commit bits (which I try to apply to the perl6 github organization too)
07:46 masak that's the one.
07:46 xiaomiao I've used a similar strategy in the past, it seems to work well
07:47 masak brrt: what's your github user name?
07:47 rurban1 joined #perl6
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07:47 brrt masak: bdw
07:47 BSc_tadzik I still have mixed feelings after a non-reviewed commit broke panda bootstrap at some point
07:48 brrt brrt was taken iirc
07:48 masak brrt: I bit you too. :)
07:48 japhb masak: Ecosystem should definitely be part of prod-ready, but in addition we may want certain groups of modules we would expect in the ecosystem: protocols, data formats, bindings, and so forth
07:48 brrt :-)
07:48 Mouq m: say Bool.HOW; say EVAL Bool.HOW # :(
07:48 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW.new()␤Cannot call 'EVAL'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Cool $code, Any :lang($lang) = { ... }, PseudoStash :context($context))␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/4HmdvvAS8U:1␤␤»
07:48 Mouq m: say Bool.HOW; say EVAL ~Bool.HOW # :(
07:48 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW.new()␤Could not find symbol '&ClassHOW'␤  in method <anon> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:13678␤  in any find_method_fallback at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:2662␤  in any find_method at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:972␤  in block <un…»
07:48 masak japhb: the latter one sounds *much* more amenable to having an observable than the former one.
07:49 masak japhb: unless the former one means something like "Toolchain (for distributing modules)" or whatever
07:49 japhb masak: Well, there's ecosystem *infrastructure*, and then there's things *in* the ecosystem
07:49 japhb yeah, that
07:49 masak right.
07:49 Mouq We report Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW, but can only get at it as Metamodel::ClassHOW. Is the former name the 'correct' one?
07:50 masak japhb: on reflection I think I'd much rather see individual sections for "Protocols", "Data formats", etc, than just "Ecosystem"
07:50 masak japhb: there are almost countably infinite demands could be put on the ecosystem.
07:51 japhb Mouq: ISTR the Perl6:: namespace had special handling, and that jnthn wasn't 100% happy with the current difference between implementation and self-reported name, but I don't recall how he wanted to resolve that.
07:51 japhb masak: That's what I was trying to mean.  Brain fuzzy.
07:51 japhb If the cafe was open, I'd self medicate with caffeine.  :-)
07:51 masak "Toolchain" is a bit tricky. I can't really tell if what we have today (panda + stuff) counts as "ready for production". maybe our resident BSc has an opinion on that. :)
07:52 BSc_tadzik I wouldn't say it is :)
07:52 masak I mean, I still see a future where Perl 6 is more officially integrated into CPAN.
07:52 timotimo at le venue, with le internets
07:52 BSc_tadzik at best it's in the maturing state, as immature :P
07:52 timotimo yays
07:52 Mouq japhb: :/ kk, thanks. I was trying to determine which types the docs are missing even typegraphs of and was confused by that
07:52 japhb No, it's not.  Improving at least, because FROGGS et al., but last I checked that stuff wasn't merged.
07:53 Ven joined #perl6
07:54 masak timotimo: congratulations! you just got write access to https://github.com/masak/p​erl6-production-readiness/ ! :)
07:54 japhb heh
07:54 Mso150 joined #perl6
07:54 * masak .oO( EXCEPT IN NEBRASKA! )
07:54 Ven congrats
07:54 * Ven waves the "production ready" flag
07:55 Ven we need a lot of those XXX.
07:55 timotimo :)
07:55 timotimo maybe we should register "perl6.xxx"?
07:55 japhb masak: The problem with giving states enough power that some can be forward thinking is that, well ... others aren't.  :-P
07:55 FROGGS >>> Is somebody lost and can't find the way to the venue? <<<
07:55 timotimo i wonder how much that costs. probably half a fortune :\
07:56 timotimo FROGGS: where do you sit?
07:56 BSc_tadzik timotimo: I thought perl6 will be xs free :)
07:56 japhb timotimo: perl6.xxx can just be a gif of a butterfly emerging from its chrysalis.  :-)
07:56 FROGGS timotimo: at the OMV gas station
07:57 japhb FROGGS: Do you see the sign on the sidewalk pointing towards the venue?
07:57 BSc_tadzik or just cool code examples, like in those subreddits: /r/natureporn, /r/scienceporn... there's even /r/humanporn, all SFW
07:57 japhb (Or do you already know how to get here and are directing people?)
07:58 timotimo probably the latter
07:58 Mouq "why not both?"
07:58 FROGGS japhb: yes, because *I* know where the venue is :o)
07:58 japhb Ah, OK, good
07:59 Ven where are you seated, japhb :)?
07:59 anaeem1 joined #perl6
07:59 FROGGS is jnthn already in da house?
07:59 japhb Third row, dead center.  :-)
07:59 Ven don't think so
08:00 Ven FROGGS: did you guys catch larry?
08:00 japhb Larry is second chair in from the left in my row.
08:01 timotimo japhb: are you counting rows from the front or back? :)
08:01 Hor|zon joined #perl6
08:01 japhb timotimo: The third row is the same either way.  ;-)
08:01 timotimo o/
08:02 FROGGS okay, I do not spot anybody that looks lost... I'm coming in now too
08:03 lizmat Ven: japhb is sitting behind timotimo
08:03 dalek specs: e940cd6 | (Helmut Wollmersdorfer)++ | S15-unicode.pod:
08:03 dalek specs: added reference to Unicode standard
08:03 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/e940cd68c9
08:03 dalek specs: 58611c3 | (Helmut Wollmersdorfer)++ | S15-unicode.pod:
08:03 dalek specs: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/specs
08:03 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/58611c3808
08:03 dalek specs: 7a8127b | (Helmut Wollmersdorfer)++ | S15-unicode.pod:
08:03 dalek specs: added reference to Unicode document
08:03 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/7a8127bc83
08:03 Ven lizmat: I know. he's behing me as well :)
08:03 lizmat okokok
08:03 lizmat :-)
08:03 Ven behind*.
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08:03 pmichaud TimToady:  RE: GLR   I find your ideas intriguing and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
08:03 japhb Instead of spacial coordinates, clearly we need to represent this room using a relative location graph.
08:03 japhb *spatial
08:04 japhb pmichaud: :-D
08:05 brrt in a way these are equivalent of course
08:05 * japhb imagines constraints on the seating graph: if $speaker === TheDamian { @rows.avoid(1) }
08:09 Ven it's staaarting
08:10 ghostlines joined #perl6
08:13 * [Tux] wishes every visitor of the Austrian Perl Workshop a fantastic time!
08:15 leont_ joined #perl6
08:16 [Tux] Method catpath (from IO::Spec) called at:
08:16 [Tux] /pro/3gl/CPAN/rakudobrew/moar-H​EAD/panda/lib/Panda/Fetcher.pm, lines 48,50,52
08:16 [Tux] Please use $*SPEC.catpath instead.
08:16 [Tux] ----------------------------------------​----------------------------------------
08:16 [Tux] Please contact the author to have these calls to deprecated code adapted,
08:16 FROGGS [Tux]: yes, we are waiting for after the next compiler release to change it
08:16 [Tux] and a few more in rakudobrew build moar
08:17 lizmat otherwise we will break panda for the people who are not in blead
08:17 chenryn joined #perl6
08:17 [Tux] ok, just passing the message I seem to be requested :P
08:17 lizmat [Tux]++ :-)
08:18 * [Tux] would have loved to be there too, but $work :(
08:18 moritz IWBN to wait with the dreprecation until we can switch to a new method that works with the last compiler release
08:21 japhb Yes, between release N and N+1, the new feature should be there, and the old one not actively showing deprecations, then between N+1 and N+2, show deprecation, and after N+2, remove old.  But ... thats's more the ideal than what we cactually do.
08:21 japhb GAH the lag ahhhhhh
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08:27 masak Ven: what's your github name again? just remember that it's not like your IRC nick :)
08:27 Ven masak: nami-doc
08:27 Ven (why, may I ask?)
08:30 chenryn_ joined #perl6
08:31 cognome Ven: why do you ask? may I ask? Have all fun in Salzburg btw.
08:31 Ven cognome: I'm having lots! thanks
08:31 [Sno] joined #perl6
08:31 masak Ven: giving you write access to https://github.com/masak/p​erl6-production-readiness/
08:31 masak (done)
08:31 Ven oh, alright. thanks
08:31 Ven well, for me it's production ready anyway :)
08:32 kaleem joined #perl6
08:32 timotimo did jnthn make it to the venue in the mean time?
08:32 cognome masak, is it necessary to create another repository not in the perl6 organization area?
08:33 cognome thx, anyway
08:35 leont_ masak: you may want to add toolchaining to that list
08:36 ecocode joined #perl6
08:36 cognome masak: may be deserves an entry on strings because it is the forte of Perl 5 (even if partly covered in other entries). They are not lazy yet.  I am waiting for the day I can do  a   grep split  on a pipe to show how string laziness and array laziness are two sides of the same coin.
08:37 masak Ven: for me too. but there are certainly aspects where we could do better, and those aspects may be showstoppers for people, making them not consider Perl 6 production-ready.
08:38 dalek specs: 305e05e | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S99-glossary.pod:
08:38 dalek specs: Add IWBN lemma
08:38 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/305e05e44a
08:38 masak cognome: I don't care -- that feels like a meta-thing right now. the important thing is to collaborate over the content.
08:38 japhb It is really interesting hearing this talk in German, especially which words end up being borrowed words.
08:38 Hor|zon joined #perl6
08:38 masak cognome: (about the perl6 organization thing)
08:38 cognome ok
08:38 dalek rakudo/nom: 48b1336 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (2 files):
08:38 dalek rakudo/nom: Prevents double deprecation warning for spurt()
08:38 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/48b13364a1
08:38 dalek rakudo/nom: 95be122 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/IO/Path.pm:
08:38 dalek rakudo/nom: Temporarily remove deprecation removal
08:38 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/95be122ffc
08:38 dalek rakudo/nom: 5ca5fe8 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/IO/Spec/Unix.pm:
08:38 dalek rakudo/nom: Temporarily remove deprecation removal
08:38 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5ca5fe859f
08:38 dalek rakudo/nom: c35341e | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (5 files):
08:38 dalek rakudo/nom: Undeprecate recently deprecated IO ops
08:38 dalek rakudo/nom:
08:38 dalek rakudo/nom: Please revert this commit after release of 2014.10
08:39 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c35341ea46
08:39 FROGGS timotimo: I can't spot him
08:39 lizmat moritz: ^^^
08:39 masak cognome: re strings -- laziness is an important point. I'm just not sure I consider it on any kind of critical path for production readiness. willing to be swayed by argument.
08:39 masak cognome: I do have Unicode as a heading already.
08:40 timotimo OK :(
08:40 masak leont_: I'm sure you know 100x more than I do about toolchaining. could you give me a few details/subheadings? what is a toolchain and in what ways can it be production ready?
08:40 timotimo liz is so dilligent! :)
08:40 * masak .oO( dillizent )
08:41 dalek roast: 9acc51a | usev6++ | S02-names-vars/list_array_perl.t:
08:41 dalek roast: Add test for RT #117481
08:41 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/9acc51a8d9
08:41 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=117481
08:41 cognome masak: so you should have a category LATER for things not deemed worthy of 6.0 so as to distinguish LATER thing from things missing from your document.
08:41 leont_ The toolchain is everything you use to build/test/install(and arguably author) modules
08:41 FROGGS lizmat / others: what if we would make the deprecation conditionally? could we fudge deprecations according to the current VERSION file?
08:42 pmichaud did the "is DEPRECATED" trait disappear?
08:42 lizmat no
08:42 lizmat but it doesn't work in the settings
08:42 FROGGS it does not work in the setting :/
08:42 pmichaud it used to
08:42 pmichaud I mean, that was the whole reason it was created -- to mark deprecated things in the setting
08:43 masak cognome: but this document is about production readiness... why would I include things that are outside of its scope?
08:43 lizmat well, in my experience, it never worked in the setting
08:43 masak cognome: you must be thinking of another document :P
08:43 lizmat strange errors, either on all VM's or just parrot, I don't really recall
08:43 pmichaud okay.
08:43 lizmat putting the DEPRECATED call in the sub was at least optically equivalent
08:44 lizmat and more flexible  :-)
08:44 masak oh, and by the way: usev6++
08:44 masak it's so nice to see a lot of movement in the RT queue.
08:44 cognome masak: to distinguish things people has not thought yet for your document from those that don't pertain to it. :)
08:44 masak cognome: ok. I see.
08:45 masak cognome: I still would prefer to focus on answering the question "Is Perl 6 production ready?"
08:45 pmichaud well, the nice thing about "is DEPRECATED" is it can catch things at compile-time.  I guess the sub form could do that also.
08:45 masak cognome: if someone wants to collect information about ""what happens after 6.0?", then they're welcome to do so in a separate file somewhere.
08:46 pmichaud I think it's important to not conflate "6.0" and "production ready" as being somehow equivalent.
08:47 masak ok.
08:47 bartolin thanks, masak++
08:47 bartolin I wish all of you a lot of fun at the APW
08:47 masak well, in that case, I'm talking about "production ready", not "6.0".
08:47 pmichaud masak: exactly.
08:47 masak and yes, I see what you mean, pmichaud.
08:48 cognome masak: I understand you don't want your list to become some kind of Borgesian labyrinth :)
08:48 masak surely the "production ready" discussion will extend beyond "6.0", if all goes well with the 6.0 thing.
08:48 japhb It might be useful to mark things that are specifically prioritized or deprioritized -- if we can even make that distinction in a project as anarchic as this one, though the 6.0 discussion may point to that.
08:48 lizmat wrt to DEPRECATED: maybe it should also mention in which (blead) version of Perl6 it will be removed
08:48 masak cognome: yeah, I picture it as this list of level-1 headings, like html5please
08:48 cognome Perl things often tend to end up this way.
08:49 lizmat fwiw, there are now several DEPRECATED things in Perl6 that have been there for more than a year now
08:49 pmichaud at one time we also noted that rakudo (the compiler) could be more aggressive on deprecation than Rakudo Star
08:49 lizmat m: my %h; say %h<a>.exists
08:49 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«Too few positionals passed; expected 2 arguments but got 1␤  in method exists at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:1601␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/vbmymcC7La:1␤␤»
08:50 lizmat m: my %h; say %h.exists('a')
08:50 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«False␤Saw 1 call to deprecated code during execution.␤======================================​==========================================␤Method exists (from EnumMap) called at:␤  /tmp/3_hKY_jcoM, line 1␤Please use the :exists adverb with postcircum…»
08:50 pmichaud i.e., the compiler is allowed to deprecate things aggressively, and Rakudo Star works to provide deprecation cycles
08:50 lizmat is one such deprecation
08:50 FROGGS lizmat: yeah, pass the version to DEPRECATED that tells since when it is deprecated (which could be a future date), and pass a version when it will be removed
08:51 FROGGS and we could hide the deprecation before $version1, and do warnings for authors for after $version2
08:51 lizmat and how do we check the version in blead ?
08:51 FROGGS lizmat: the VERSION file
08:51 pmichaud I'm pretty sure Perl 6 defines a Version type  :-)
08:52 pmichaud m:   say v6.0.0.WHAT
08:52 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«(Version)␤»
08:52 FROGGS and fudge could take care of fiddling with deprecation messages in some way
08:52 pmichaud maybe we should use it.  :)
08:52 lizmat ok, how do we *compare* the version in blead sensibly ?
08:52 FROGGS lizmat: you can compare versions, on?
08:53 pmichaud m:  say v6.0.0 after v5.9.9
08:53 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«True␤»
08:53 anaeem1_ joined #perl6
08:53 Ven http://act.useperl.at/apw2014/talk/5833 apparently
08:53 FROGGS pmichaud: right now we would use the compiler versions like 2014.10, but yeah
08:53 masak it's interesting how we have at least three "axes" of versioning, but really only one dimension along which to express it.
08:53 lizmat m: say $*VM.version
08:53 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«v2014.9.14.g.0.df.2.d.6.f␤»
08:53 FROGGS (because that's all we have)
08:53 pmichaud isn't the compiler version available somewhere already, though?
08:53 FROGGS m: say $*VM.version cmp v2014.10
08:53 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/gKuhEGsVtzâ�¤Missing semicolon.â�¤at /tmp/gKuhEGsVtz:1â�¤------> [32msay $*VM.version cmp v2014.[33mâ��[31m10[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        postfixâ�¤        dotty…»
08:53 lizmat m: say $*VM.version < v2014.10
08:53 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/CTZNMbU80Xâ�¤Missing semicolon.â�¤at /tmp/CTZNMbU80X:1â�¤------> [32msay $*VM.version < v2014.[33mâ��[31m10[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        postfixâ�¤        dotty m…»
08:53 masak axis one: Perl 6 is the "next" thing after Perl 5. (that's the unpopular axis.)
08:54 masak axis two: the spec keeps evolving, and will eventually hit 6.0
08:54 lizmat m: say $*VM.version cmp v2014.10
08:54 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/os8FrFwzHXâ�¤Missing semicolon.â�¤at /tmp/os8FrFwzHX:1â�¤------> [32msay $*VM.version cmp v2014.[33mâ��[31m10[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        postfixâ�¤        dotty…»
08:54 pmichaud m: say $*VM.version after v2014.10
08:54 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/ZvfwZtMgabâ�¤Missing semicolon.â�¤at /tmp/ZvfwZtMgab:1â�¤------> [32msay $*VM.version after v2014.[33mâ��[31m10[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        postfixâ�¤        dot…»
08:54 FROGGS m: say $*VM.version cmp v2014.10.0
08:54 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/H7htjAkmA4â�¤Missing semicolon.â�¤at /tmp/H7htjAkmA4:1â�¤------> [32msay $*VM.version cmp v2014.[33mâ��[31m10.0[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        postfixâ�¤        dot…»
08:54 masak axis three: the compiler(s) keep evolving.
08:54 FROGGS ?
08:54 lizmat yuck?
08:54 pmichaud m: say $*VM.version.WHAT
08:54 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«(Version)␤»
08:54 FROGGS m: say $*VM.version cmp version.new('2014.10')
08:54 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/bxgzNw7qVUâ�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    version used at line 1â�¤â�¤Â»
08:54 FROGGS m: say $*VM.version cmp Version.new('2014.10')
08:54 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«Less␤»
08:54 FROGGS m: say $*VM.version cmp Version.new('2014.09')
08:54 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«More␤»
08:55 pmichaud m: say $*VM.version after v2014.10
08:55 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/7wAWLodWxuâ�¤Missing semicolon.â�¤at /tmp/7wAWLodWxu:1â�¤------> [32msay $*VM.version after v2014.[33mâ��[31m10[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        postfixâ�¤        dot…»
08:55 FROGGS that's weird
08:55 pmichaud feels like a rakudobug
08:55 * masak submits rakuodbug
08:55 lizmat that's looks like a parsing issue
08:55 FROGGS m: say v1.2
08:55 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«v1.2␤»
08:55 lizmat m: say v2014.10
08:55 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/sJ0f9YfLJQâ�¤Missing semicolon.â�¤at /tmp/sJ0f9YfLJQ:1â�¤------> [32msay v2014.[33mâ��[31m10[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        postfixâ�¤        dotty method or postfi…»
08:55 pmichaud m: say v2014.10 before $*VM.version
08:55 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/5WTerG1xJeâ�¤Missing semicolon.â�¤at /tmp/5WTerG1xJe:1â�¤------> [32msay v2014.[33mâ��[31m10 before $*VM.version[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        postfixâ�¤        do…»
08:55 FROGGS m: say v10.2
08:55 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/WHm04xB1jmâ�¤Missing semicolon.â�¤at /tmp/WHm04xB1jm:1â�¤------> [32msay v10.[33mâ��[31m2[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        postfixâ�¤        dotty method or postfixâ�¤Â»
08:55 FROGGS only one digit allowed??
08:55 FROGGS /o\ we are doomed
08:56 pmichaud m: say v10.2 afer v10.1
08:56 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/ehy82TiQIyâ�¤Missing semicolon.â�¤at /tmp/ehy82TiQIy:1â�¤------> [32msay v10.[33mâ��[31m2 afer v10.1[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        postfixâ�¤        dotty method o…»
08:56 pmichaud m: say v10.2 after v10.1
08:56 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/l5I8nAWHiLâ�¤Missing semicolon.â�¤at /tmp/l5I8nAWHiL:1â�¤------> [32msay v10.[33mâ��[31m2 after v10.1[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        postfixâ�¤        dotty method …»
08:56 pmichaud I think it's the "after" operator that is confusing things
08:56 pmichaud or maybe not
08:57 pmichaud masak: last night at dinner I was propounding that the "6.0 spec" should be an extraction of roast tests
08:58 FROGGS pmichaud: no, it is about two digits before the .
08:58 lizmat pmichaud: an interesting thought  :-)
08:59 masak pmichaud: ooh
08:59 masak pmichaud: I like that.
08:59 pmichaud I'm still on my "synopses are not spec" soapbox
08:59 masak :)
08:59 masak yeah.
08:59 pmichaud the "spec" is defined by tests.
08:59 masak roast being spec feels very precise in a way.
08:59 pmichaud so, we should figure out what tests in roast we feel are key to 6.0, and memorialize that.
08:59 FROGGS std has 'v' <?before \d> :: <vnum> +% '.' '+'?, and we miss the ::
09:00 anaeem1_ joined #perl6
09:00 masak pmichaud++
09:00 pmichaud (and it explicitly should *not* be simply a tag on the roast repo... it should be a curated extraction of tests)
09:00 pmichaud (at least until roast matures)
09:00 FROGGS pmichaud: yeah, which includes fudged tests where we still have bugs or open TODOs, but that is totally valid
09:01 FROGGS if we could attach meta information to test files some how...
09:01 timotimo Cannot call 'Numeric'; none of these signatures match:  -  in sub WINNER at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:21472 ... meh :\
09:02 FROGGS O.o
09:02 lizmat technically, though, we would need to change the skip handling so it can account for being an unimplemented, required feature
09:03 pmichaud shouldn't be any skip handling
09:03 pmichaud well.... okay, I could see having skip handling
09:03 * Ven really wants to change the name of "winner" before 6.0 :)
09:03 Ven ...and maybe "more" as well
09:03 timotimo yeah
09:03 timotimo it's kinda awkward
09:03 woolfy joined #perl6
09:04 lizmat .oO( the other day, I had thought of an alternative for more, but I seem to have forgotten it now )
09:04 * lizmat also doesn't like winner(), or the whole setup there in S17
09:05 lizmat but I heven't been able to come up with a better way and/or convince jnthn
09:05 FROGGS lizmat: I think about skips that they are a) the compiler fault and the test is meant to pass in order to comply to the spec or b) the test is bogus and need to be (re)moved
09:05 jnthn Well, I was more convinced by my original sugar-less API that I could remember :)
09:05 FROGGS jnthn: you're preparing your talk in secrecy?
09:05 timotimo oh hai jnthn
09:06 jnthn FROGGS: Well, folks sat behind me might get sneak pees... :)
09:06 jnthn gah, peeks
09:06 mauke I can't even see your screen
09:06 lizmat .oO( sneek peas )
09:06 mauke just your back
09:07 FROGGS jnthn: you are at the venue?
09:07 timotimo i don't even see where jnthn sits :S
09:07 jnthn yes
09:07 mauke behind Larry
09:07 jnthn I sneaked in
09:07 jnthn After sleeping altogether too well.
09:07 FROGGS ahh, I saw your arm!
09:08 masak wow, it's almost like being there in person! I can picture everyone sitting on a line behind each other!
09:08 jnthn Made up for sleeping less than well in Stockholm, I guess :)
09:08 timotimo OK :)
09:08 japhb The desire to change features that are currently canonized in tests "before 6.0" points also to my feeling that choosing tests that are not frozen (or don't even having a working implementation) as being part of 6.0 seems a tad premature.  Though we could say "definitely in 6.0", "in 6.0 but will likely change", and "wanted in 6.0 but not frozen"
09:08 FROGGS masak: *g*
09:08 pmichaud japhb: yes, that's why I claim it needs to be an extraction of tests
09:08 pmichaud (if I'm understanding what you just wrote correctly)
09:09 japhb pmichaud: And I'm arguing for more than one extraction.
09:09 Mouq lizmat: I think we could maybe get more feedback and brainpower on concurrency things with better documentation *hint* ;)
09:09 Ven ha, jnthn indeed sneaked in
09:09 pmichaud I'm not sure I agree with "wanted in 6.0 but not frozen"
09:09 FROGGS sounds like "needs clarification"
09:09 lizmat Mouq: better than S17 ?  :-)
09:09 pmichaud I think 6.0 should be "definitely in", with wishlists reserved to later versions
09:10 masak with all the sneaking jnthn is doing, is he wearing sneakers? :P
09:11 Mouq I actually have found S17 really readable, but it'd be nice to have stuff on doc.perl6.org, which can include more tutorials/examples and stuff too. I'm adding the S17 types to the typegraph document now
09:11 japhb pmichaud: Well, for example, I'm not sure I can sell 6.0 without really complete sockets functionality.  But I don't think all of that is even tested, let alone implemented.
09:11 pmichaud and "in 6.0 but will likely change" sounds to me like we should simply not include it as part of 6.0
09:11 masak I also think 6.0 should be "definitely in".
09:12 masak which seems to suggest that macros, in their to-be-designed new clothes, will be post-6.0 :/
09:12 japhb OK, so is "winner" in, if lots of people dislike it, but we really need something like it?
09:12 timotimo argh
09:12 pmichaud japhb: I'm not sure about that phrase "sell 6.0".
09:12 timotimo Cannot find method 'gist': no method cache and no .^find_method
09:12 Ven masak: I dont think it's that bad
09:12 pmichaud there's also a difference between "sell 6.0" and "sell Perl 6"
09:12 Ven it's not what people go for
09:13 japhb pmichaud: My use case is "Can I with a straight face discuss 6.0 as a first 'complete' release in a decade and a half, with this big thing missing?"
09:14 pmichaud is "6.0" intended to mean "complete"?
09:14 timotimo &WINNER.wrap(-> |args { say args; callwith(|args) });
09:14 timotimo "how the heck is the winner sub called?"
09:14 timotimo i can't tell
09:14 timotimo because of that error
09:14 timotimo BUT
09:14 japhb And I agree about that difference.  I have no trouble selling Perl 6 to interested parties.  "6.0" would be harder, right now.
09:14 pmichaud it's those sorts of unspoken equivalencies that really bother me at times
09:14 timotimo i can just call a little in-line sub with that capture and have it print its args and kwargs
09:15 masak pmichaud++ # "unspoken equivalences"
09:15 japhb pmichaud: "complete" is perhaps a bad choice of words.  Basically, I want to avoid the "Well we called it .0, but really, you ought to wait for .1" thing.  I hate that.
09:15 Ven he :P
09:15 masak pmichaud: fwiw, I think the outside of the echo chamber is about twice as bad with the unspoken equivalences as we are here on the inside.
09:15 pmichaud japhb: interesting.  I still come from the era when everyone knew that a ".0" release was never the one to use... wait for the .1
09:16 masak pmichaud: and worse, the outside cannot always be convinced to care.
09:16 masak (about the distinctions)
09:16 pmichaud masak: yes, I agree that we have to acknowledge that the equivalencies exist
09:16 japhb I'm down the hall at work from the Go language team.  I think of there 1.0 threshold when I think of Perl 6.0
09:17 pmichaud japhb: if we want that sort of definition of 6.0, I think we have to say that "6.0" is at least another year away, if not longer.
09:17 japhb And I think that's still reasonable (I'm not wedded to it, I just think it's reasonable as a choice to make)
09:17 pmichaud (and I'd be okay with that, although I know many would not.)
09:18 masak pmichaud: case in point, recently at client: <devs> of course, this is just a *prototype*, not the real thing. <client> OMG, the devs already finished the thing -- we need to give them more things to do!
09:18 masak :P
09:19 pmichaud I'm also fine with us coming up with an extracted checkpoint that we give a pre-6.0 version identifier
09:19 timotimo why don't i has methods? :(
09:19 jnthn .HOW.name the thingy that you've got
09:19 pmichaud v6.0-pre1  works for me
09:19 timotimo k
09:19 masak sounds OK, and might give a nice roadmap-like feel
09:20 timotimo Array and Hash
09:20 japhb Yeah, I like that idea
09:21 jnthn timotimo: wat...
09:21 timotimo should i come over? ;)
09:21 timotimo i could try to golf this
09:21 jnthn you can try
09:21 pmichaud rakudo: say v6.0.0pre1   # checking
09:22 pmichaud m: say v6.0.0pre1   # checking
09:22 camelia rakudo-{parrot,moar} d3a284: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Confusedâ�¤at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤------> [32msay v6.0.0[33mâ��[31mpre1   # checking[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        whitespaceâ�¤Â»
09:22 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/p1mXe369taâ�¤Confusedâ�¤at /tmp/p1mXe369ta:1â�¤------> [32msay v6.0.0[33mâ��[31mpre1   # checking[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        whitespaceâ�¤Â»
09:22 pmichaud wha....?   that used to work.
09:22 timotimo in a one-liner it does work no-problem; maybe it has to do with being called from a callback in NativeCall?
09:22 moritz m: say v6.0.0.pre1
09:22 camelia rakudo-moar d3a284: OUTPUT«No such method 'pre1' for invocant of type 'Version'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/tE7JrbZya5:1␤␤»
09:22 masak pmichaud:
09:22 masak v1.2.3beta                  # illegal
09:22 jnthn heh, for a moment I expected "did you mean .perl" :)
09:23 masak Version('1.2.3beta')        # okay
09:23 pmichaud masak: danke
09:23 pmichaud yeah, that's right
09:23 masak "Only integers and certain wildcards are allowed; for anything fancier you must coerce a string to a C<Version>"
09:24 pmichaud anyway, if we go with the "6.0.0 needs to be complete" approach, then perhaps we can reasonably talk about things like "6.0.0pre1"
09:24 * masak misses sorear sometimes
09:24 masak this feeling brought to you by glancing at S02 and seeing the word "Allomorphic" in one of the headings :)
09:25 masak pmichaud: any reason to prefer "pre1" to the (more established, IMO) "RC1" ?
09:25 pmichaud "RC1" sounds more like a software product to me.
09:25 timotimo waaaaait a minute
09:25 timotimo my Num $until = $wait ?? nqp::time_n() + $wait !! Nil;
09:26 pmichaud I'm worried it conflates "language spec" and "compiler" too closely.
09:26 japhb Because an RC is "if no one objects, we'll just change the name to final" as opposed to "this is a WIP pre-release"
09:26 masak fair enough.
09:26 timotimo that's BS; $wait is not the time to wait, it's the code to call if we waited instead of winning something
09:26 lizmat indeed, RC-* are usually short lived
09:26 pmichaud japhb beat me to the other aspect... "RC" nominally means "release candidate", whereas we're talking about something we've explicitly decided isn't "complete" enough to be our notion of a release.
09:27 lizmat 6.0.0pre1 would be live for at least a month, I would think
09:27 bjz joined #perl6
09:28 pmichaud well, longer if we're holding 6.0.0 for "needed features that haven't been fully explored yet"
09:28 japhb We can have pre2, pre3, etc.
09:29 masak how do we make sure we don't get "stuck" in releasing more preN things?
09:29 masak sometihng like a convergence criterion...
09:29 masak or a loop variant
09:29 pmichaud the .pre0 series should have placeholders for "tests" yet to be written to make 6.0 complete
09:30 japhb ... that's why I had my multiple categories above, for a way to say "this is what we expect we will converge to, but we don't have finalized tests written yet"
09:30 mephinet joined #perl6
09:31 timotimo is winner actually tested at all? >_<
09:31 Hor|zon joined #perl6
09:31 masak japhb, pmichaud: yes, it seems you're somehow saying the same thing.
09:32 moritz timotimo: S17-channel/winner.t and integration/advent2013-day14.t
09:32 masak though those bits are all for the known unknowns.
09:32 pmichaud well, except that I'm not convinced that "6.0.0" needs to be complete
09:32 JimmyZ joined #perl6
09:32 masak it seems that the biggest threat to 6.0 convergence at the end of a -pre0 sequence would be unknown unknowns, things we fail to plan for now.
09:33 pmichaud I am certain that a 6.0.0 (no-preN) spec should be "definitely in" and not "we want to be in"
09:33 timotimo m: $nqp::time(); # this is obviously wrong, right?
09:33 masak but realize during the -pre0 journey that we need for 6.0
09:33 camelia rakudo-moar c35341: OUTPUT«Cannot find method 'Any'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/kwUVYeyK9J:1␤␤»
09:33 masak timotimo: looks obviously wrong to me.
09:33 japhb And I think that threat is part of why implementation really matters to me for 6.0.0 things.  We've too often had to make major changes when we realized implementation would be painful or guaranteed-slow.
09:34 JimmyZ hello, I don't mind what's the name is... but I hope the high priority in https://github.com/masak/p​erl6-production-readiness will be achieveed :)
09:34 JimmyZ the name is not the key part ..
09:34 FROGGS pmichaud: +1 to "definitely in" and not to include a list of wishes that might is going to take ages
09:35 JimmyZ but +1 to ...pre1... preX
09:35 jnthn timotimo: Yeah, there are no nqp variables...
09:36 Mouq m: CompUnitRepo::Locally.^name
09:36 camelia rakudo-moar c35341: OUTPUT«Method 'install' must be implemented by CompUnitRepo::Locally because it is required by a role␤  in any compose_method_table at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:2362␤  in any apply at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:2372␤  in any compose at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:25…»
09:36 timotimo booya
09:36 Ven timotimo++
09:36 timotimo i have something working
09:36 Ven I saw it live – and first – *g*
09:36 masak JimmyZ: you just got added as a collaborator to https://github.com/masak/p​erl6-production-readiness/
09:37 masak pmichaud: you too :)
09:37 pmichaud masak++
09:37 JimmyZ masak: thanks
09:37 japhb FROGGS, pmichaud: I agree that all 6.* specs should be "definitely in", I just think we need the "want to be in" or "will be in, but changing soon" categories to guide the -preN path.
09:37 masak FROGGS: you too :)
09:37 pmichaud japhb: yes, I'm fine with that notion.
09:37 dalek doc: 9f1b25c | Mouq++ | / (4 files):
09:37 dalek doc: Attempt to update type-graph.txt
09:37 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/9f1b25cea9
09:37 FROGGS masak: thanks :o)
09:37 nine If you're at the APW and see a segfault during my talk, please remind me to kill the Catalyst server
09:38 pepl a segfault at your box, I assume ;-)
09:38 nine I guess "never do live demos" really means *never* ;)
09:38 nine pepl: yep
09:38 FROGGS japhb: when we state that something will be definitely in in 6.0.1, we don't have to state that it might change, because that can/will always happen
09:38 huf record live demo, learn exact movements to make it look live
09:38 pecastro joined #perl6
09:38 pmichaud masak: I'm sure it's perhaps more work than it's worth (or you intended), but "production-ready" feels like it wants a features-matrix treatment (for display)
09:39 japhb FROGGS: I should have said "for the 6.0-preN series", apologies.
09:39 JimmyZ other thing is: new feature or unmature feature may be defined as experiment feature
09:39 Ven http://www.pcgamer.com/how-gamecubewi​i-emulator-dolphin-got-a-turbocharge/ even dolphin has a JIT nowadays! :P
09:40 pmichaud I think experimental features should be part of compilers, not language spec.
09:40 FROGGS japhb: the same applies for 6.0-pre3 for example... we don't have to state that the synopsis (or tests if we have any) can change until it is done
09:40 pmichaud I somewhat like the RFC approach to standards -- standards are adopted *after* implementations, not before.
09:40 JimmyZ which implied we may remove the experimental feature next release :)
09:41 pmichaud JimmyZ: that sounds like something belonging in compiler, not language spec :)
09:41 Ven timotimo: ^ did you see my link?
09:42 timotimo didn't look, no :(
09:42 JimmyZ pmichaud: aye, but I wouldn't personally mind language spec feature is marked as experiment, since we may think we added wrong language spec which may influence other  language specs
09:43 JimmyZ *some
09:43 japhb pmichaud: agreed re: RFC approach
09:44 Sqirrel joined #perl6
09:44 pmichaud also, it seems to me a judicious use of fudge could handle the test extraction for the 6.* definition
09:44 JimmyZ +1
09:44 timotimo jnthn: how come we get "Cannot call 'AUTOGEN'; none of these signatures match:" when we try to call a NativeCall sub? as in: why does it say only "AUTOGEN" instead of the name of the sub we tried to call?
09:44 pmichaud i.e., tests can be marked with suitable #?spec  markers to indicate what is "in" or "out" of our working set of roast
09:45 JimmyZ a release of roast :)
09:45 Ven http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2014/10/0​9/announcing-key-advances-to-javascript-perf​ormance-in-windows-10-technical-preview.aspx more jit!
09:46 pmichaud and an equivalent of t/spec/spectest.data for file-level selection
09:46 pmichaud er, t/spectest.data
09:47 japhb pmichaud: Agreed on both points
09:47 FROGGS I like it too :o)
09:48 lizmat wouldn't this make roast more implementation aware than it should be ?
09:48 FROGGS though, that means we tag stuff per file in rakudo and not in roast
09:48 pmichaud lizmat: I don't understand
09:48 FROGGS we'd probably need a kind-of spectest.data in roast that gets the tags
09:48 pmichaud yes, what FROGGS said
09:49 FROGGS and then it wouldn't be compiler aware :o)
09:49 lizmat ok, so the files in roast itself would not be changed for this
09:49 japhb Right, that's what we meant
09:49 FROGGS lizmat: the files in roast *will* be changed, because roast is the spec
09:49 pmichaud well, I think the files in roast would be changed to add markers identifying tests that are (not) part of spec
09:50 Ven actually I'm running out of battery...
09:50 FROGGS a spec coverage tool would be nice after all the tagging
09:50 timotimo jnthn:             GTK::Simple::Scheduler.cue( { $statuslabel.text = "evaling the code now ..." } );
09:50 pmichaud roast belongs to the language, not to rakudo.  :)
09:50 timotimo this should set the text of $statuslabel ASAP, shouldn't it?
09:50 pmichaud (or any other implementation)
09:51 pmichaud my battery is 6%... I should seek power also
09:51 Ven 8%! ha!
09:51 FROGGS 86% in the main battery, and 100% in the bay battery :o)
09:51 Ven .oO( I SEEK  POWEEEER )
09:51 FROGGS (so I don't have to stop compiling rakudo :o)
09:51 Ven FROGGS: forgot to charge my laptop...
09:52 moritz you should have used python (batteries included!) :-)
09:52 FROGGS *g*
09:52 timotimo i can't follow the talk, my coding *and* the irc >_<
09:52 Ven \o/
09:52 timotimo ah, 8% is your laptop battery
09:52 timotimo i still have about 20 minutes left in my battery :|
09:52 Ven it's saying 45min for mine buuut I don't believe it
09:53 SamuraiJack joined #perl6
09:54 timotimo heh, yeah macbook airs
09:54 timotimo they are amazing devices from that standpoint
09:54 dalek rakudo/nom: d083173 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | src/core/asyncops.pm:
09:54 dalek rakudo/nom: fix a few wrongs with WINNER
09:55 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d083173e0c
09:55 lizmat timotimo++  good cacth (I think :-)
09:55 lizmat *catch rather
09:56 lizmat m: say $nqp::time_n()
09:56 camelia rakudo-moar c35341: OUTPUT«Cannot find method 'Any'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/8K4cziqyid:1␤␤»
09:59 lizmat odd that that doesn't blow up at compilation
10:00 lizmat m: say "hi"; say $nqp::time_n()
10:00 camelia rakudo-moar c35341: OUTPUT«hi␤Cannot find method 'Any'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/6fnDwRsCLL:1␤␤»
10:00 jnthn timotimo: It's odd the AUTOGEN name would escape
10:00 jnthn timotimo: I just checked the MOP code and it does $proto.set_name($name);
10:00 * FROGGS tries now to implement <cut>, to get into regexes again... http://perlcabal.org/syn/S05.html#line_2578
10:01 jnthn lizmat: It's a package var lookup
10:01 jnthn lizmat: Then calling the var
10:02 TimToady where are the most recent timing charts?
10:02 FROGGS TimToady: timings of what?
10:03 TimToady oh, versions of rakudo
10:03 jnthn TimToady: You mean perl6-bench output? My last run I did/uploaded was http://jnthn.net/perl6/bench/2014-08-20.html
10:03 TimToady perl6-bench things to show in my talk, basically
10:04 Hor|zon joined #perl6
10:04 jnthn Those are the ones I used in my perf talk at YAPC::EU
10:04 jnthn Well, some of them
10:04 jnthn I used some from timotimo++ too
10:04 TimToady I don't need detail, just concept, so that should do
10:04 FROGGS is  "foobar" ~~ / foo <( bar /  and  "foobar" ~~ / foo <cut> bar /  considered to be identical?
10:06 TimToady no, <cut> mutates a string
10:06 FROGGS (wrt to the matched text, not backtracking)
10:06 FROGGS hmmm
10:06 FROGGS TimToady: the input string?
10:06 masak cognome: added you to prod-readiness repo, too.
10:07 TimToady yes, it's supposed to throw prefix stuff away; we haven't really figured out how to do that yet
10:07 TimToady but the idea is to be able to do continuous matching on an input stream
10:07 TimToady without keeping the whole thing in memory
10:08 cognome masak. thx.
10:08 masak pmichaud: features-matrix might be interesting for some perl6-community-internal production-ready resource, but it would contravene the purpose of what I want to create with the prod-readiness document: a simple list, with simple levels, for outsiders to read and get a quick overview.
10:08 FROGGS TimToady: got it
10:08 masak pmichaud: the document is explicitly directed to curious outsiders asking the quesiton "Is Perl 6 ready?"
10:09 timotimo i have THE POWER
10:09 masak and the answer should be more detailed than "Yes" or "No", but not burdened down with details either.
10:10 Ven is there a difference between `@ [$a, $b]` and `@ ($a, $b)` (wrt destructuring)?
10:10 * Ven has the power too, now
10:10 masak Ven: no, I don't think so.
10:10 Ven kayyy.
10:11 masak Ven: I only ever use the former, though.
10:11 timotimo TimToady: http://t.h8.lv/p6bench/2014-09-2​6-many_rakudos_history_nop5.html - this may be of interest?
10:11 Ven masak: I saw the other one on timotimo 's screen
10:11 jnthn Ven: If you use the former then it implies the sigil
10:11 jnthn So you don't need to write @ [$a, $b], just write [$a, $b] and it will make the nominal type Positional.
10:12 jnthn Just like @ does
10:12 timotimo http://t.h8.lv/p6bench/201​4-09-25-many_rakudos.html - this one is a bit hard to read because of the many many captions on the side making the graph itself narrower
10:12 Ven alright, then `@foo [$a, $b]` vs `@foo ($a, $b)`?
10:12 jnthn Those are same
10:13 timotimo ah and @foo [$a, $b] and just [$a, $b] are the same, too?
10:13 jnthn Well, the latter doesn't bind the actual thingy into @foo :P
10:13 masak jnthn: what other things except positionals could match agains `($a, $b)` ?
10:13 masak against*
10:13 fhelmberger joined #perl6
10:13 jnthn masak: Anything that knows how to .Capture and produce positionals
10:14 timotimo oooh nine is up!
10:14 jnthn masak: You can make anything destructurable by implementing .Capture
10:14 jnthn ooh, yay...the nine talk \o/
10:14 masak ooh, nine is up!
10:14 masak it's like I'm there and can see it...
10:14 masak nine walking up on stage... the crowd going wild!
10:15 masak what's he doing? is he stage-diving?
10:15 TimToady there's no stage :)
10:15 cognome is there a video feed for APW?
10:15 * masak bonks his receiver on the side
10:16 pepl cognome: no feed, only recording
10:16 cognome pepl++
10:17 pepl lizmat++, woolfy++, vienna.pm++ # sponsoring this
10:17 Ven lizmat++; woolfy++; vienna.pm++
10:18 TuxCM lizmat++; woolfy++; vienna.pm++
10:18 Ven live demo *g*
10:18 masak so... what's nine talking about? is there, like, a project he's been working on since YAPC::EU or something? :P
10:18 colomon o/
10:18 pmurias joined #perl6
10:19 Ven masak: catalyst application in p6
10:19 Ven :')
10:19 masak colomon: thanks for showing an interest in https://github.com/masak/p​erl6-production-readiness/ ! :P
10:19 masak colomon: you have been added as a collaborator
10:21 pmurias masak: re production readiness, one thing which lack of is really annoying for me is automatic precompilation of modules
10:22 masak pmurias: you have been added as a collaborator
10:22 masak pmurias: sounds like a "Toolchain" thing, I guess.
10:23 pmurias "Toolchain" thing? It's something rakudo should do automatically
10:24 pmurias like python compile .py file to .pyc
10:24 Ven nine passing a string as a role parameter for fun and profit *g*
10:24 masak right -- just wondering where it belongs in the sections we have
10:24 masak Ven: passing strings as a role parameter is nice. I do it sometimes :)
10:25 pmurias having to write Makefiles is something that doesn't belong in any vaguely modern language
10:26 Ven "our role" eh.
10:26 Ven pmurias: I feel you :P
10:26 masak agreed.
10:28 Mouq Thought: syntax vs. desugared-code benchmarks in perl6-bench
10:29 Hor|zon joined #perl6
10:29 Mouq s/syntax/idiomatic-/
10:30 Ven masak: niner.name/talks/Inline-Perl5
10:30 Ven also, for other people
10:30 masak http://niner.name/talks/Inline-Perl5 # so that I can click on it from the terminal :)
10:30 masak Ven++
10:31 Ven ha, mine highlighted it correctly :P
10:31 masak I only see .pl and .pm/.pm6 files in that directory though.
10:31 masak there's no actual talk?
10:32 masak or, let me rephrase, what do I do with these files? :)
10:32 pmichaud masak: (production ready)  well, I agree the answer should be more than 2-state "yes/no", but what you have so far seems to be 3-state (ish):  "improving/maturing/ready"
10:32 Ven eating&
10:32 pmichaud and reading the textual list doesn't give me a quick sense of things
10:33 Mouq masak: the content file
10:33 pmichaud or, at least, it's not as impactful as I think it would be if we had the items in a more compact list than the way github currently displays it
10:33 masak pmichaud: the ideal is a presentation like that of http://html5please.com/
10:33 pmichaud looking
10:33 masak pmichaud: with red/yellow/green for the levels
10:33 masak pmichaud: and more detailed descriptions (with links) if you click to expand
10:33 pmichaud masak: okay, that's what I was looking for
10:33 masak Mouq: ooh -- nice.
10:34 masak pmichaud: I'll put that in the description of the github repo -- thanks.
10:34 pmichaud by 'features matrix' i was thinking the "color indicators and concise presentation" more than the "matrix" part.
10:34 pmichaud the textual list doesn't do it for me at the moment
10:34 masak ok, then we again agree violently.
10:34 pmichaud \o/
10:35 pmichaud okay, lunchtime here.
10:35 pmichaud bbiaw
10:35 masak nine++
10:36 masak nine++
10:36 masak nine++ # just on general principle
10:42 masak detrain &
10:44 daxim_ joined #perl6
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10:55 dalek doc: f4a6590 | Mouq++ | lib/Type/Signature.pod:
10:55 dalek doc: Signature.pod tweaks
10:55 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f4a6590b0a
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11:16 dalek roast: 3cee096 | usev6++ | S19-command-line/arguments.t:
11:16 dalek roast: Add test for RT #112988
11:16 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/3cee096456
11:16 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=112988
11:20 ghostlines joined #perl6
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11:24 brrt i'm a bit in two minds about the 'web support' thingy
11:24 brrt what do we want in that regards
11:24 brrt mod_perl6?
11:24 brrt a psgi server? fastcgi server?
11:25 brrt html templating?
11:25 colomon what was nine++'s presentation on?
11:25 brrt websockets?
11:25 rurban Inline::Perl5 probably
11:25 brrt web is big these days, much bigger than CGI
11:26 brrt on the other hand..... the 'modern' thing is static html + js + a json api
11:26 brrt which is a much simpler thing in a way
11:26 Mouq colomon: http://niner.name/talks/Inline-Perl5 and http://niner.name/talks/Inline-Perl5/content
11:27 colomon Mouq++
11:29 dalek doc: 5d3615d | Mouq++ | lib/Type/Signature.pod:
11:29 dalek doc: Add a bit about destructuring
11:29 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/5d3615d022
11:30 brrt also, i think sergot a gsoc project of that just this summer
11:30 brrt sergot++ i might add... so we should add the results of that to our 'production readiness' thingy
11:31 pmurias brrt: a psgi server would use p5?
11:31 Ven joined #perl6
11:32 brrt hmm.. yeah, i mean something similar for p6
11:32 brrt it's not like it's this magic idea that we have to find. it's just something we have to agree on
11:35 timotimo had noms. good noms.
11:35 leont_ joined #perl6
11:37 pmurias brrt: we don't have to agree on a single idea
11:37 pmurias brrt: having a bunch of options seems like what we want in the long run
11:40 mauke joined #perl6
11:41 timotimo brrt: websockets will want a bit of implementation work, yeah
11:41 timotimo but with "web support" we should do a big bunch of stuff; not only serverside either.
11:42 brrt ... run perl6 on the client? please forget that now
11:42 brrt :-p
11:42 timotimo m)
11:42 timotimo bleeehh why do i feel so tired? i've had lots of sleep last night and the night before that :\
11:44 FROGGS timotimo: you need moar fresh air?
11:45 brrt json, btw, compresses well
11:45 prevost joined #perl6
11:46 brrt pmurias - sure, but that's where diversity and selection are for
11:46 brrt it will never hurt for us to say 'want to use perl6 for web? use @stack'
11:47 brrt some people will rant and say '@stack doesn't solve my use case! what an community of $plural-expletive'
11:47 brrt and... make something better
11:47 brrt and that's... ok :-)
11:47 virtualsue joined #perl6
11:51 dalek rakudo/nom: 233cb0b | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (7 files):
11:51 dalek rakudo/nom: Remove *.exists
11:51 dalek rakudo/nom:
11:51 dalek rakudo/nom: It has been deprecated for > 1 year
11:51 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/233cb0b643
11:51 dalek rakudo/nom: 217428c | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (9 files):
11:51 dalek rakudo/nom: Remove *.delete
11:51 dalek rakudo/nom:
11:51 dalek rakudo/nom: It has been deprecated for > 1 year
11:51 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/217428c325
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11:52 dalek rakudo/nom: 764c981 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/ChangeLog:
11:52 dalek rakudo/nom: Mention removal of .exists|.delete
11:52 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/764c981795
11:54 carlin if you try to call .exists/.delete will the error tell you what you're supposed to use?
11:54 jnthn carlin: We've had it doing that for the last year, iirc.
11:55 nine brrt: for web apps, PSGI really is the way to go nowadays
11:56 carlin jnthn: right, but that was the deprecation warning which is now gone
11:57 dalek roast: d1326f2 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S02-types/deprecations.t:
11:57 dalek roast: Tests for deprecated features that were removed
11:57 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/d1326f27c5
11:58 lizmat carlin: no, it will just tell you you tried to call a method that does not exist
11:58 brrt nine: yeah, i think so too, it'll just have to be adapted a bit
11:59 nine To all: sorry for my slides not being properly HTMLized yet. What's online right now is just what I used for presenting. Didn't have enough time to clean it up.
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12:01 azawawi hi #perl6
12:01 brrt hi azawawi
12:01 * azawawi reads http://perlcabal.org/syn/S17.html#Inter-Process​_Communication_exposed_as_Promises_and_Supplies for the perl6 repl feature
12:02 timotimo azawawi: do you know the "EventSource" js thingie?
12:03 azawawi timotimo: example plz?
12:04 azawawi timotimo: initial ansi color sequence output display are in the latest farabi6, btw
12:04 timotimo https://developer.mozilla.org/​en-US/docs/Web/API/EventSource - it's nicer than polling again and again for example
12:05 timotimo a much simpler way to push a stream of data from the server to the client
12:05 timotimo damn, this toy i made is fun to play with m)
12:06 dalek rakudo/nom: fcc04eb | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Cool.pm:
12:06 jnthn :)
12:06 dalek rakudo/nom: Remove ucfirst, it has been deprecated > 1 year
12:06 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fcc04eb3a9
12:06 azawawi timotimo: http://caniuse.com/#search=EventSource
12:07 azawawi timotimo: doesnt websockets cover that part?
12:07 dalek roast: 512c987 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S02-types/deprecations.t:
12:07 dalek roast: Tests for deprecated ucfirst that were removed
12:07 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/512c9871e3
12:09 timotimo yes, but you don't have websockets, do you? :)
12:09 azawawi btw, why was IO::Spec changed to $*SPEC. Any reason behind that change?
12:09 azawawi timotimo: trust me, websockets complicates a web app a lot
12:10 azawawi timotimo: while building something, do it as ajax and then switch when nearly finished to websockets if needed
12:10 azawawi timotimo: and it has its quirks here & there when cross browser support is needed
12:11 lizmat azawawi: it was part of a much wider change speeding up IO and have the right attributes for objects live at the right place
12:12 brrt eventsource is a 'good enough for most use cases' version of websockets
12:12 brrt and muuuuch simpler
12:12 timotimo and only one direction, not two
12:12 azawawi lizmat: i see
12:12 lizmat by putting the IO::Spec info in $*SPEC, you can now easily change default file system semantics in a scope
12:12 azawawi lizmat: cool thanks for the explanation
12:13 lizmat and it should be better optimizable in the future
12:14 azawawi btw, how can i profile perl 6 code under rakudo?
12:15 lizmat --profile
12:15 lizmat will generate an HTML file for you to peruse
12:15 azawawi cool thanks
12:16 azawawi im already using --doc=HTML to generate POD for currently selected code in farabi6
12:16 azawawi nice i will add that option
12:17 azawawi im using Farabi (Perl 5, Mojolicious) to develop farabi6 until farabi6 is capable of fully editing its own code :)
12:19 azawawi brrt: Regarding EventSource, it is good enough until you hit the cross-browser support wall. Please see http://caniuse.com/#search=EventSource
12:20 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 5e688d1 | coke++ | log/MoarVM-version.log:
12:20 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
12:20 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/5e688d1217
12:21 brrt fair enough.
12:21 * brrt isn't wedded to the idea :-)
12:21 brrt it's just a nice inbetween solution
12:21 azawawi i will try it though :)
12:21 bowtie joined #perl6
12:21 timotimo this rather simple animation already maxes out 1 of my cores :\
12:21 azawawi that's what i like about #perl6. Always new ideas
12:22 timotimo at 25fps
12:22 Ven nice
12:22 Ven is it web scale?
12:23 azawawi im running on an AMD FX-8150 (with only two enabled cores out of 8 available cores) for heat problems... lol
12:23 timotimo m)
12:23 azawawi The fan is already at 6k rpm
12:24 * azawawi mental note next time, buy an i5...
12:25 * masak is back from lunch
12:25 masak what did I miss? did nine unveil Inline::Perl7?
12:26 brrt azawawi - i advice cleaning up the fans.. that helped a lot on a machine i had at home
12:26 brrt :-)
12:26 brrt buy an i7 :-P
12:27 timotimo jnthn: it seems like trying to profile my thingie will explodify with a segfault; rpobably because it does multithreading?
12:28 timotimo it actually explodes even before it compiles my custom frame code
12:29 nine masak: use v6-inline; and Perl6::MOP should be the most interesting parts
12:29 timotimo this throttle mechanism looks like our "squish" supply operator
12:30 timotimo i wonder if we should build a variant of squish that will also somehow plop a "squished this many samey messages" and we'd pretty much immediately have an RLE implementation
12:34 masak brrt: thanks for your input on the "web support" bit. here's my take: a language in 2014 needs to relate *somehow* to the web. think of languages like Go or Rust. they have libraries and stacks for serving web pages/sites/apps. and that's part of what makes those languages "production ready" (to the extent they are).
12:34 masak completely agree that there can be several solutions, not just one.
12:35 masak but the sum of those solutions and how stable/useful they are definitely forms a part of the "production readiness" of Perl 6 IMO, at least for a certain type of people.
12:35 masak I think we've seen that during the Rakudo era of Perl 6's development, that people aim for the web when they're developing things.
12:35 ghostlines joined #perl6
12:36 dalek nqp: e1635d7 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/QRegex/Cursor.nqp:
12:36 dalek nqp: eliminate two no-ops
12:36 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/e1635d792c
12:36 masak brrt: re Perl 6 on the client: I'm still waiting for that. I have high hopes for pmurias++' work on getting nqp to target JavaScript.
12:36 brrt i have a long story to write about the relation between go and rust, by the way
12:37 masak even nqp on the client would be pretty cool, actually.
12:37 brrt that would definitively have a cool side yeah :-)
12:37 brrt the web is where the (wild) things are
12:38 pmichaud std:  say v2013.4.5
12:38 camelia std fc92e1e: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Confused at /tmp/W0MHCqFo4M line 1:â�¤------> [32msay v2013.[33mâ��[31m4.5[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤ dotty method or postfixâ�¤        postcircumfixâ�¤  postfix_prefix_meta_operatorâ�¤   postopâ�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤     'v2013' used …»
12:38 pmichaud aha
12:38 lizmat :-)
12:38 pmichaud looks like STD and Rakudo agree here about multi-digit version numbers
12:38 masak I recognize this failure mode.
12:38 masak we've encountered it before
12:38 brrt then again, an ORM is for some people also a necessary thing
12:38 pmichaud it's a longest-token-matching issue
12:38 masak (not just earlier today)
12:38 masak I bet there is an RT ticket with it somewhere
12:39 * masak goes hunting for it
12:39 masak nine: no need to apologize at all -- as soon as I found http://niner.name/talks/Inline-Perl5/content , I was totally content :P
12:39 pmichaud I suspect that   v123.10   ends up with "v123" as identifier over 'v1'
12:39 masak *nod*
12:39 pmichaud because the grammar rule is
12:39 pmichaud token version:sym<v> {
12:39 pmichaud 'v' <?before \d> :: <vnum> +% '.' '+'?
12:39 pmichaud }
12:40 pmichaud which means LTM stops at the ::
12:40 masak https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=116016
12:40 masak is that one related?
12:41 masak it's from 2012
12:41 pmichaud yes, it looks exactly the same
12:41 * masak merges the two tickets
12:42 pmichaud I wonder why we need the <?before \d> ::  part
12:42 pmichaud well, <?before \d>  is guarding against  "v*.3.4"  as a version identifier
12:43 pmichaud I wonder what happens if we get rid of the '::'
12:43 FROGGS and the :: commits to that token, no?
12:43 Hor|zon joined #perl6
12:43 masak brrt: re ORM -- some "Database" section should probably be in there
12:43 FROGGS so it won't try other rules, at least in theory
12:43 pmichaud no
12:44 pmichaud :: commits to an alternation
12:44 leont_ I think I could have filled 20 minutes on TAP::Harness if had actually prepared properly. Maybe next time.
12:44 pmichaud there are no alternations in the version rule, which means the '::' was intended to stop LTM
12:44 brrt but are ORM's really all that relevant in our web-scale world?
12:45 brrt i think it's difficult. sqlite is probably a must-have
12:45 masak brrt: that's why I said "Databases", not "ORMs" :)
12:45 xenoterracide joined #perl6
12:45 masak brrt: people are going to come to this page asking "will I be able to use Perl 6 for <X>?"
12:45 brrt basically .. do we want a batteries-included approach to it?
12:45 FROGGS pmichaud: so the :: only effects using version literals in use/need statements
12:45 masak brrt: that question feels orthogonal to me.
12:46 FROGGS pmichaud: but it doesn't help us when parsing a value
12:46 masak brrt: the concern isn't "are all these things included?" -- it's "can I do it at all?"
12:46 FROGGS because we just have many value candidates like token value:sym<version> { <version> }, but no alternation at all
12:46 brrt hmm
12:46 nine Speaking of ORM. I should have mentioned, that the stuff I did to make Catalyst usable can be applied to DBIx::Class as well.
12:46 masak nine: ooh
12:46 brrt you can do everything you want, if you're motivated enough
12:47 pmichaud FROGGS: so, in use/need statements there's a need for other identifiers starting with 'v' to be chosen over this one?
12:47 nine Especially use v6-inline and Perl5Parent
12:47 masak brrt: ok, I'm talking about practically available solutions that an outsider can pick up and use, with the right instructions.
12:47 masak brrt: "follow these steps and you're up and running"
12:47 timotimo .o( when i said "perl6 on the client side of the web" i actually meant stuff like LibWWWPerl UserAgent, WWW::Mechanize, PhantomJS, ...)
12:48 lizmat leont: not even a lightning talk ?
12:48 masak I'm not talking about the "here are all the pieces, this problem is theoretically solvable but no-one has done it before, you're on your own" kind of possibilities
12:48 FROGGS pmichaud: the opposite... in use/need we want to parse versions when we hit a /v\d/, as I understand it
12:48 FROGGS m: use v1234
12:48 masak timotimo: ooh! yes, that's important, too.
12:48 camelia rakudo-moar fcc04e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find v1234 in any of: /home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/languages/perl6/lib, /home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/languages/perl6␤»
12:48 masak timotimo: we need a different term for that than "client side", I think.
12:48 timotimo probably
12:48 FROGGS m: use v1234-bar
12:48 camelia rakudo-moar fcc04e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find v1234-bar in any of: /home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/languages/perl6/lib, /home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/languages/perl6␤»
12:48 pmichaud FROGGS: how does the :: help that?
12:48 masak timotimo: maybe "agent side"? :)
12:49 timotimo 134136  timotimo │ but with "web support" we should do a big bunch of stuff; not only serverside either.
12:49 timotimo my original message didn't mention "client side" or anything similar :)
12:49 FROGGS pmichaud: it would look it down to the alternation that started to match a version, and it would not even try to match a module name
12:49 masak oh, it was brrt coming to conclusions. I see :)
12:50 FROGGS am I missing something essential?
12:50 pmichaud FROGGS:  oh, I see.  So following use|need we need a 'v' bareword to not be parsed as a version.
12:50 nine masak: I think you are spot on. A year ago I was asking for a "how do I do web dev in Perl 6?" howto. A real step by step guide of what to install, what modules to use and how to put them together to put something online
12:50 leont_ lizmat: lightning talk is being written now, that's how I noticed I had too much stuff
12:51 FROGGS std: use v1234-bar # though I wonder why that does fail that way in std
12:51 camelia std fc92e1e: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Cannot locate module v1234-bar at /tmp/eKOoORPnNn line 1 (EOF):�------> [32monder why that does fail that way in std[33m�[31m<EOL>[0m�Check failed�FAILED 00:01 138m�»
12:51 FROGGS I *think* it should parsefail a version when :: would work correctly
12:51 pmichaud in this case the :: isn't being used to fail a parse
12:52 pmichaud it's being used to prioritize one alternation over another
12:52 lizmat leont_++
12:52 FROGGS pmichaud: the -bar in my wrongish version literal should make it fail to parse a version
12:52 brrt aha i see
12:52 brrt yeah then i agree timotimo :-)
12:53 pmichaud FROGGS: in the case of a 'use' statement, it's never attempting to parse a version. (more)
12:53 pmichaud when you tell "std" to "use v1234-bar", it's trying to locate that (and cannot)
12:53 pmichaud std:  use nosuchthing;
12:53 camelia std fc92e1e: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Cannot locate module nosuchthing at /tmp/3wU6pecHep line 1:�------> [32muse nosuchthing[33m�[31m;[0m�Check failed�FAILED 00:01 137m�»
12:54 pmichaud the error message there has nothing to do with versions (because we aren't parsing a version number)
12:55 FROGGS token statement_control:use {
12:55 FROGGS || <version> <?{ substr($<version>.Str,0,2) eq 'v6' }>
12:55 FROGGS || <version> <?{ substr($<version>.Str,0,2) eq 'v5' }> [
12:55 FROGGS that's a stripped version from STD.pm6
12:55 FROGGS though, the sequential matching does not make sense in combination with ::
12:56 pmichaud "use v1234-bar" doesn't match either of those alternations
12:56 pmichaud neither does "use v1234"
12:56 FROGGS when there was a ::> instead of ::, then what I was saying would be correct I think :o)
12:57 Hor|zon joined #perl6
12:57 FROGGS pmichaud: sorry for the confusion, I had rakudo's <use> implementation in mind
12:57 pmichaud well, rakudo seems to be using | alternation
12:57 pmichaud we should probably switch to ||
12:57 FROGGS m: use v1234
12:57 camelia rakudo-moar fcc04e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find v1234 in any of: /home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/languages/perl6/lib, /home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/languages/perl6␤»
12:57 FROGGS m: use v1
12:58 camelia rakudo-moar fcc04e: ( no output )
12:58 pmichaud I see where the problem is now.
12:58 pmichaud except I don't see why STD.pm6 uses the ::
12:58 FROGGS me neither
12:59 pmichaud maybe fossil?
12:59 [Coke] so much to do. so little motivation
12:59 FROGGS [Coke]: get a cup of coffee and just start with the first task without thinking of the rest :o)
12:59 masak nine: yeah, I'm really really trying to think about this from the perspective of the person who is curious about "how do I <X>, today, in Perl 6?"
12:59 pmichaud STD.pm6's  <need> statement is using | alternation, though... maybe it needs to be switched to || also
13:00 masak nine: and I'm inspired by html5please, which I like and have used for this kind of purpose many times.
13:00 FROGGS ahh
13:00 pmichaud what's the meaning of "need v5", ooc?    /me looks.
13:01 FROGGS you just load v5, without importing anything... and probably without switching the slang
13:02 azawawi joined #perl6
13:03 pmichaud I wonder if   a better formulation would be
13:04 pmichaud <?before v<[56]> > <version>
13:04 pmichaud std:  use v617;
13:04 camelia std fc92e1e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 137m␤»
13:04 pmichaud heh
13:04 pmichaud std: use v717;
13:04 FROGGS hehe
13:04 camelia std fc92e1e: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Cannot locate module v717 at /tmp/TYunYMKueo line 1:�------> [32muse v717[33m�[31m;[0m�Check failed�FAILED 00:01 137m�»
13:05 FROGGS std: no v7
13:05 camelia std fc92e1e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 138m␤»
13:05 FROGGS \o/
13:05 mauke std: use v6v6;
13:05 camelia std fc92e1e: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Whitespace is required between alphanumeric tokens at /tmp/zMdoyRtdSb line 1:â�¤------> [32muse v6[33mâ��[31mv6;[0mâ�¤Confused at /tmp/zMdoyRtdSb line 1:â�¤------> [32muse v6[33mâ��[31mv6;[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤ fee…»
13:05 azawawi lizmat: ping
13:05 * mauke deletes v6v6.pm
13:06 pmichaud okay.  I think using the '::' as LTM control in version is going the wrong way ish... let me see if I can refactor to fix it.
13:08 lizmat azawawi: pong
13:08 azawawi lizmat: the current deprecated messages are great for non-server processes. I did not see farabi6 deprecation warnings until the server died. When you Ctrl-C, you dont get any deprecation messages on a server process. Only when it dies or segfaults
13:08 brrt joined #perl6
13:09 leont_ Does anyone know the resolution of the projector?
13:09 nine leont_: full hd
13:10 azawawi lizmat: is it by design shown on END { }
13:10 leont_ If my laptop doesn't screw up, I might not have to shorten my lines then :-p
13:10 timotimo oh, pepl is not on irc any more, even though i perhaps wanted to reserve a second slot for a lightning talk
13:11 lizmat if you want a Control-c to also show deprecations, and handle all END processing, this will work on moar:
13:11 lizmat signal(SIGINT).tap( {die} )
13:11 lizmat it will tap the Control-C and change it into a normal die()
13:11 nine leont_: and 100 % of the screen area is actually usable. That's quite a luxury.
13:11 lizmat this causing END processing, thus showing the deprecation messages
13:11 leont_ You mean unlike Sofia? ;-)
13:12 pmichaud my refactor seems to work... spectesting now
13:12 pmichaud should I patch STD.pm6 also?
13:12 leont_ If signals are delayed like in perl5 (I assume they are), tapping them can cause serious delays to the point of it not working if inside a piece of C code
13:13 lizmat yup, YMMV  :-)
13:13 timotimo FROGGS: did jnthn finish his work? :)
13:13 FROGGS pmichaud: TimToady would be happy I guess :o)
13:13 timotimo i can't sneak any peeks at his monitor any more now :(
13:13 lizmat it really depends on how libuv does it underneath
13:13 pmichaud FROGGS: I'd have to figure out how to spectest STD.pm6
13:13 FROGGS timotimo: he's not hacking anymore for a while now... but I can't tell :o)
13:13 timotimo OK
13:14 FROGGS pmichaud: I have now idea if that's possible at all
13:14 azawawi lizmat: thanks for info. i will try it now. im using MoarVM for development
13:14 timotimo ooooh did these people just bring gratuitous amounts of candy? :D
13:15 pmichaud FROGGS: looks like "make snaptest"
13:16 virtualsue joined #perl6
13:17 Ven .tell masak http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~aldr​ich/papers/ecoop14-tsls.pdf if you havn't read it
13:17 yoleaux Ven: I'll pass your message to masak.
13:17 Ven or anybody interested in composable reader macros.
13:18 * masak is right here :)
13:18 yoleaux 13:17Z <Ven> masak: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~aldr​ich/papers/ecoop14-tsls.pdf if you havn't read it
13:18 dalek nqp-js: 9de723d | (Pawel Murias)++ | t/nqp/53-knowhow.t:
13:18 dalek nqp-js: Fix test to check for that the knowhow name is correct.
13:18 dalek nqp-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias​/nqp-js/commit/9de723dde7
13:18 masak Ven: thanks :)
13:18 Ven well, I wasn't sure :)
13:18 timotimo yes! they did!
13:18 masak Ven: oh yes, I've seen this one before.
13:19 masak Ven: I was intrigued by it, and I think we have some learnings for slangs in there.
13:19 Ven masak: have you seen sugarJ and others?
13:19 masak Ven: notably, they manage to combine MOP and slangs in interesting ways.
13:19 masak Ven: have not seen sugarJ.
13:19 Ven oh and I realized I never talked about idris/agda-like "patterns"... Which are interested because they are in a somewhat more disciplined style (since the language itself is *VERY* strongly typed)
13:22 guru joined #perl6
13:22 masak among problems that I don't have: a lack of source material and things to process. :)
13:23 masak anyway, I think the central idea of "type-specific language" in that paper is very much a kind of distinctiveness something that Perl 6 should add to its own.
13:24 ajr joined #perl6
13:24 colomon I ran another smoke test after lizmat++ removed .exists and .delete, and Adventure::Engine, IO::Socket::SSL, IoC (???), and OpenSSL all started failing, presumably because of that change.
13:25 BSc_tadzik Inversion of Control, a Bread::Board like thingy
13:25 BSc_tadzik pretty nice
13:26 japhb Conjecture: perl6-bench isn't perfect, but it's good enough for people to use and add tests as desired; what we really need now is serious concurrency stress testing, with the goal of trying to find relatively small programs that can trigger segfault/crash/incorrect results/etc. on r-j or r-m.
13:26 japhb Thoughts on said conjecture?
13:26 moritz what's the relation between stress testing and perl6-bench?
13:26 colomon seems like … what moritz++ said
13:27 colomon (two correct thoughts that I don't understand the relationship between)
13:27 japhb Oh, sorry.  "my time"
13:27 moritz oh
13:28 moritz +1
13:28 japhb Meaning, it seems more valuable for me to switch my hacking focus.
13:34 Ven m: my $a = 5; say 9x$a
13:34 camelia rakudo-moar fcc04e: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
13:35 moritz Ven: need whitespace around alphanumeric ops
13:36 Ven m: my $a = 5; say 9 x$a
13:36 camelia rakudo-moar fcc04e: OUTPUT«99999␤»
13:36 Ven moritz: some whitespace :)
13:38 pepl joined #perl6
13:39 masak colomon: looking at Adventure::Engine now.
13:39 moritz golven!
13:39 masak golven?
13:40 colomon japhb: +1
13:40 masak yup, three instances of .delete
13:40 moritz masak: the German word for "to golf" is "golfen", so Ven does golven
13:41 moritz (actually "Golf spielen", but "golfen" coloquially is OK)
13:41 Hor|zon joined #perl6
13:41 masak aha :)
13:42 masak in Swedish, "golven" just means "the floors"... so I was confused. :)
13:43 kaleem joined #perl6
13:44 masak colomon: fix'd. https://github.com/masak/Adventure-Engine/com​mit/5bb5425a2db05ba608a54905ce7747cf559ac4e8
13:45 cmac joined #perl6
13:45 colomon masak++
13:45 anaeem1 joined #perl6
13:56 PotatoGim^Home joined #perl6
13:58 Ven masak: I'm pretty good at doing the floors, as well
13:58 Ven (doing as in, cleaning, I guess?)
13:58 masak :P
13:58 masak lizmat++ # haven't really paid attention to the S16 editing, but I'm reading it now and it looks gorgeous
13:59 Ven lizmat++ # reasons
14:00 ajr_ joined #perl6
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14:03 dalek rakudo/nom: fd017a0 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Any.pm:
14:03 dalek rakudo/nom: Remove KeySet/KeyBag, deprecated > 1 year ago
14:03 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fd017a0013
14:04 Ven profiling my game of life o/
14:04 * masak .oO( aren't we all ) :P
14:04 lizmat colomon: yuck
14:05 mephinet hi! first time looking at perl6, using http://perl6maven.com/tutorial/
14:05 mephinet one thing I can't figure out (at first sight at least) - is the example in http://perl6maven.com/tutorial​/perl6-string-functions-substr
14:05 masak mephinet: welcome!
14:05 mephinet what does $z = substr $s, 4, *-11; mein?
14:05 mephinet ^ mean
14:05 * colomon launches another smoke test
14:05 masak mephinet: "substring of $s, from position 4 to position 11 from the end"
14:06 mephinet how is *-11 parsed?
14:06 masak mephinet: `*-11` means "whatever minus 11"
14:06 mephinet why not just -11
14:06 masak mephinet: and the "whatever" bit depends on context
14:06 FROGGS mephinet: * is magically "converted" to the amount of chars of the string
14:06 Ven welcome mephinet ! :)
14:06 masak mephinet: because strings don't have negative indices :)
14:06 lizmat colomon: OpenSSL installs fine for me
14:06 colomon lizmat: hmm.
14:06 colomon we still have occasional transiant failures, could have been that, I guess.
14:07 masak mephinet: a more serious answer is that Perl 5 does it that way, and it's turned out to have some worrisome/unfortunate corner cases.
14:07 mephinet masak, FROGGS: thanks for the explanation...
14:07 Ven (it's just a closuuure)
14:07 masak mephinet: Python also uses negative numbers for indexing from the end.
14:07 mephinet see, that's why it presents as WhateverCode.new()
14:07 masak mephinet: it's subtle, but the "discontinuity" around 0 is problematic.
14:07 mephinet masak: yeah, I know this from Python, too
14:08 mephinet thanks, guys, I'll keep on reading in the direction of closures...
14:08 jnthn m: my $x = *-11; say $x(53) # isolated example
14:08 camelia rakudo-moar fcc04e: OUTPUT«42␤»
14:09 FROGGS mephinet: have fun :o)
14:10 mephinet thanks, jnthn! (you're sitting five meters to my left)
14:10 jnthn oh :)
14:10 FROGGS *g*
14:10 jnthn Small world... :)
14:10 Ven and you're sitting five meters to mine, mephinet
14:10 FROGGS <-- is really grinning *g*
14:10 Ven same here :-)
14:10 jnthn netcra^Wjnthn confirms it!
14:10 mauke I think I can see you
14:10 FROGGS ohh, 10m already makes for a middle sized world
14:11 masak especially on a logarithmic scale
14:12 ajr_ joined #perl6
14:14 Timbus joined #perl6
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14:14 dalek nqp-js: 93f12ae | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/ (4 files):
14:14 dalek nqp-js: Deserialize a KnowHOWREPR.
14:14 dalek nqp-js:
14:14 dalek nqp-js: Make .HOW.name work on knowhows.
14:14 dalek nqp-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias​/nqp-js/commit/93f12ae14c
14:15 Ven Reify is responsible for 1/4 of my GoL run
14:15 Ven uh-h
14:15 Ven pmurias: do you already have containers implemented?
14:15 timotimo japhb: i already forgot what you look like :o
14:15 FROGGS Ven: that'll hopefully change in one direction or the other :o)
14:16 Ven I hope so. It's just .map I think
14:16 timotimo japhb: you're not staying for the hackathon?
14:18 Ven sorry 30% of it is .reify. 23% on ListIter, 7% on mapiter
14:18 Ven +4% gimme +another reify 4% hahah
14:19 dalek roast: 39b4869 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S02-types/deprecations.t:
14:19 dalek roast: Remove test for obsolete deprecations
14:19 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/39b48693f8
14:19 jnthn $dom.process: PlaneSettingPlan, 1, *.choose-seat('2A', 'jnthn');$dom.process: PlaneSettingPlan, 1, *.choose-seat('2A', 'jnthn');
14:19 * colomon gave up on building Rakudo on the PowerPC G3 iMac after about 70 hours of "stage parse"
14:19 jnthn oops
14:20 FROGGS hehe
14:20 * jnthn should not lean on the paste button :)
14:20 FROGGS colomon: you need a faster hard disk when you only have 256MB RAM :o)
14:21 colomon FROGGS: are you implying I need to switch the 2001 iMac to using an SSD?  ;)
14:22 * colomon is actually impressed at how well the machine runs when it's not swapping madly.
14:22 FROGGS colomon: *g*
14:22 FROGGS I have no idea :o)
14:22 BSc_tadzik back then computers were slower, but the software was faster :)
14:23 dalek Inline-Perl5: e39f4c9 | nine++ | / (2 files):
14:23 dalek Inline-Perl5: Allow subclassing an existing P5 object.
14:23 dalek Inline-Perl5:
14:23 dalek Inline-Perl5: Sometimes we have already an instance of the P5 class (e.g. a Catalyst
14:23 dalek Inline-Perl5: controller) that we want to subclass in P6. So allow passing the parent
14:23 dalek Inline-Perl5: to the constructor instead of insisting in creating a new object there.
14:23 dalek Inline-Perl5: review: https://github.com/niner/Inl​ine-Perl5/commit/e39f4c9271
14:23 nine Ah, fells good to be committing again :)
14:23 sunnavy joined #perl6
14:23 timotimo nine: i hear you have the t440p
14:23 timotimo it has a discrete graphics card in it, doesn't it?
14:24 nine timotimo: not mine. I made sure to not have to suffer nvidia.
14:24 nine timotimo: IOW it's optional
14:25 chenryn joined #perl6
14:25 timotimo ah
14:30 JimmyZ joined #perl6
14:35 pyrimidine joined #perl6
14:37 FROGGS pmichaud: FYI, the version parsing oddness is identical across backends
14:42 dalek Inline-Perl5: bb47fec | nine++ | / (2 files):
14:42 dalek Inline-Perl5: Support can on wrapped Perl 6 objects
14:42 dalek Inline-Perl5:
14:42 dalek Inline-Perl5: This allows to call $p6obj->can in Perl 5 and get a sensible result.
14:42 dalek Inline-Perl5: review: https://github.com/niner/Inl​ine-Perl5/commit/bb47fecc4a
14:43 treehug88 joined #perl6
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14:50 FROGGS jnthn: okay, the grammar candidates weirdness I mentioned earlier is fixed indeed: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/50​15755ac33c10ccac84b0d7e17edcbd82c6f312
14:51 FROGGS so, the version oddness is just back to normal oddness
14:51 chenryn joined #perl6
14:52 jnthn phew...ish :)
14:52 anaeem1 joined #perl6
14:54 dalek Inline-Perl5: e30e685 | nine++ | / (3 files):
14:54 dalek Inline-Perl5: Allow modules loaded by Perl 5 to be written in Perl 6.
14:54 dalek Inline-Perl5:
14:54 dalek Inline-Perl5: Support use v6-inline; in Perl 5 code to pass a module's code
14:54 dalek Inline-Perl5: back to Perl 6 which then creates a Perl 6 module of it.
14:54 dalek Inline-Perl5:
14:54 dalek Inline-Perl5: This may improve use cases where a Perl 5 framework autoloads modules
14:54 dalek Inline-Perl5: that may now be written in Perl 6.
14:54 dalek Inline-Perl5: review: https://github.com/niner/Inl​ine-Perl5/commit/e30e6850a4
14:54 dalek Inline-Perl5: 951c776 | nine++ | / (3 files):
14:54 dalek Inline-Perl5: Fix instancing classes created by v6-inline;
14:54 dalek Inline-Perl5:
14:54 dalek Inline-Perl5: Needs current Rakudo HEAD.
14:54 dalek Inline-Perl5: Thanks to jnthn++ for implementing GLOBAL::
14:54 dalek Inline-Perl5: review: https://github.com/niner/Inl​ine-Perl5/commit/951c776aac
14:56 Ven joined #perl6
14:56 timotimo jnthn: oh btw, the AUTOGEN thing might actually not be NativeCall's fault
14:56 timotimo which confuses me even more
14:56 jnthn oh...
14:57 jnthn timotimo: Where're you getting it?
14:57 timotimo i shall investigate it properly
14:57 cognome joined #perl6
14:57 Ven okayy, so my perl Configure.pl --gen-moar did not gen moar
14:58 FROGGS Ven: so it thinks it is up-to-date
14:58 FROGGS Ven: try unlink install/bin/moar
14:58 Ven it probably does... but it's a 09.14...
14:59 timotimo so i'm trying to call $cairo_context.fill(1); (which is not supposed to work, as fill would only accept no arguments or a named argument "preserve"
14:59 timotimo Cannot call 'AUTOGEN'; none of these signatures match:
14:59 timotimo :(Cairo::Context: *%_)
14:59 timotimo :(Cairo::Context: Any :preserve($preserve)!, *%_)
15:00 timotimo now i've tried it outside the EVALd code and it still says "AUTOGEN"
15:00 Ven %)
15:00 timotimo maybe a precompilation issue?!
15:00 jnthn That'd be kinda odd...multis are quite common.
15:01 timotimo aye. there's no multi method in GTK-Simple, so i will have to make some up
15:01 jnthn Imore meant "in lots of other modules"
15:02 jnthn And probably woulda seen it come up already
15:02 jnthn So yeah, something...unusual.
15:02 timotimo well, now i'm using -I ../cairo/lib and it gives me the method name
15:03 timotimo er... actually ... a different error though
15:04 timotimo aye, with -I ../blah/lib i get Cannot call 'stroke'; none of these signatures match:
15:05 timotimo without -I blah/lib i do indeed get AUTOGEN
15:06 FROGGS pmichaud: btw:
15:06 FROGGS 'v' <?[\d]>   $<vstr>=[<vnum>+ % '.' '+'?] # works for v1, not for v12
15:06 FROGGS 'v' <?[0..9]> $<vstr>=[<vnum>+ % '.' '+'?] # works for v12, not for v1
15:07 pmichaud FROGGS: interesting.  There's clearly a problem with Rakudo's current implementation of LTM and zero-width assertions, I think
15:07 anaeem1_ joined #perl6
15:07 pmichaud 'v' $vstr=[<vnum>+ % '.' '+'?]       # works for v1 and v12
15:08 pmichaud but also allows v*.3.7
15:08 mephinet say :r ;
15:08 mephinet makes my perl6 (rakudo) segfault. Something to report? Or rather something to simply not do?
15:08 FROGGS mephinet: how recent is your rakudo?
15:08 JimmyZ m: say :r
15:08 mephinet This is perl6 version 2014.09 built on parrot 6.8.0 revision 0
15:09 pmichaud 'v' <![*]> $vstr=[<vnum>+ % '.' '+'?]       # should do _exactly_ the same as above for v1 and v12, but doesn't.
15:09 camelia rakudo-moar fcc04e: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
15:09 FROGGS perl6-m -e 'say :r ;'
15:09 FROGGS Unexpected named parameter 'r' passed
15:09 FROGGS mephinet: that works for me...
15:10 jnthn Same for me
15:10 jnthn And REPL doesn't explode either
15:10 jnthn Oh...but we're trying it on MoarVM
15:10 pmichaud note that rakudo on parrot's repl is is broken
15:11 FROGGS he's running a script (I sit next to him luckily)
15:11 pmichaud okay then, that's not it :)
15:12 mephinet code to reproduce: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/429141
15:13 mephinet works for FROGGS, I'll just live with it for now...
15:13 jnthn Works here too, fwiw
15:14 pmichaud I think I have a parrot build available.. just a sec
15:15 chenryn joined #perl6
15:15 pmichaud I get the segfault.
15:15 pmichaud (in parrot)
15:16 [Sno] joined #perl6
15:16 FROGGS yeah, I saw it too right now, though that's not a parrot debug build
15:17 pmurias Ven: re containers, not yet. NQP doesn't use containers
15:18 Ven pmurias: oh right. you only have :=
15:18 Ven pmurias: ... do you know how you're gonna do it?
15:20 pmurias the only solution I can think of is having a container object
15:21 * mephinet is rebuilding parrot
15:22 timotimo .o( or get MoarVM instead if you can )
15:22 cognome joined #perl6
15:22 jnthn mephinet: You might find Moar a faster/more stable experience...
15:22 jnthn pmurias: Well, every other backend does that way too :)
15:23 Ven pmurias: right. yes :(
15:23 pmichaud http://paste.scsys.co.uk/429142
15:23 pmichaud golfed
15:23 guru joined #perl6
15:24 pmichaud that gives me a segfault
15:24 FROGGS Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
15:24 FROGGS 0x00007ffff2c0d767 in find_in_cache (interp=interp@entry=0x60f050, cache=0xb936320, capture=capture@entry=0xb94a930, num_args=num_args@entry=0) at multi_dispatch.c:71
15:24 FROGGS 71                return cache->arity_caches[num_args - 1].results[i];
15:24 timotimo perl6-m --ll-exception -e 'use NativeCall; sub gtk_source_view_new() returns OpaquePointer is native('gtksourceview-3.0') {*}; say gtk_source_view_new()'
15:24 timotimo Cannot invoke null object
15:24 Hor|zon joined #perl6
15:24 timotimo it seems like the exception comes from inside the world
15:25 timotimo inside finish_code_object
15:25 mephinet timotimo, jnthn:  will try moarvm too, in the evening (unless our dinner prohibits further hacking)
15:25 timotimo so it's using compile_in_context somehow? o_O
15:27 jnthn timotimo: Maybe it's the trait?
15:28 jnthn timotimo: but no idea why it'd fail...
15:28 timotimo http://paste.scsys.co.uk/429143
15:28 Ven Ooh.
15:28 Ven I just realized LiveScript actually has something like perl6's junctions!
15:29 Ven and it's awful.
15:29 jnthn timotimo: Yeah, it's applying the trait at the time
15:29 timotimo ooh the NSA
15:29 timotimo we gotta beat that
15:30 chenryn joined #perl6
15:33 jnthn oh, hah... :)
15:34 timotimo um
15:34 timotimo yeah
15:34 Ven heh.
15:34 pmurias Ven: I feel containers are something that will need to be optimized at a higher level static analysis pass
15:34 timotimo it's not so clever to have the single-quoted string end in the middle of the -e
15:34 * Ven wants to write `my @a{Months; 1..28}` :DDD
15:34 timotimo Cannot locate native library 'gtksourceview-3.0'
15:34 timotimo that's what i get now
15:35 timotimo how do i tell "is native" about libgtksourceview-3.0.so.0?
15:35 pmurias Ven: link for livescript junctions?
15:35 timotimo without having .so in there?
15:35 Ven pmurias: it's ... not really documented. it's under the match experimental feature
15:35 timotimo oh?
15:35 Ven pmurias: basically, you can do `(f and g) args`
15:35 Ven or `(f or g) args`
15:36 timotimo one could say we *are* divining the concept of eagerness
15:37 Ven `sink all hyper lazy silo {}` # Valid Perl6™
15:39 timotimo so all sink hyper lazy given silo?
15:39 nine Good: I know where the segfault shown in my talk comes from and I have a trivial fix for it.
15:39 lizmat nine++
15:39 Ven oh :D
15:39 nine Bad: I fail to write a test for this :/ It should always fail, but it seems, sometimes Perl 5 copes with it.
15:39 Ven nine++
15:39 timotimo what cool thing did nine end up doing this time?
15:40 timotimo not saying he doesn't deserve praise anyway
15:41 Ven .o( we actually just want him to maintain our perl 6 catalyst applications )
15:41 timotimo %)
15:42 timotimo i'll suspend my laptop now
15:43 mauke I,I "strictly lazy"
15:43 Ven okay, dinner time, but the git didn't finish
15:43 Ven sigh.
15:43 chenryn where is the latest perl6-bench result?
15:51 [Coke] the parrot build is hosed on the daily run.
15:51 [Coke] it's been stuck in stage parse.
15:51 [Coke] er, stage optimize, sorry
15:52 erkan joined #perl6
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15:52 [Coke] according to htop, that ./perl6-p command has been running for nearly 4 hours.
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16:07 dalek perl6-roast-data: f80f98e | coke++ | / (4 files):
16:07 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
16:07 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/f80f98e591
16:16 pmurias does it make sense for me to work on a HACK or a LHF (low hanging fruit) docs for nqp-js?
16:17 bartolin [Coke]: I had the same problem (parrot not building) since five days: https://github.com/usev6/perl6-roast-​data/blob/master/perl6_pass_rates.csv
16:18 bartolin [Coke]: But I'm building with --gen-parrot=master since only that builds on freebsd. I hoped the problem would disappear when this PR is merged: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/320
16:18 leont_ joined #perl6
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16:20 bartolin [Coke]: but I didn't look closer yet
16:20 Ven_ joined #perl6
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16:35 japhb chenryn: If you look in the irclog, you can find some perl6-bench urls posted by timotimo, which I think are the most recent publicly posted results.
16:36 Ven_ pmurias: what would be the next thing a currently-outsider could do for nqp-js?
16:36 Ven_ pmurias: (maybe something specific from the TODO)
16:36 japhb chenryn: We should have something do runs daily and plot the results in arewefastyet form (which is what I designed the history function of perl6-bench for), but right now I don't think anyone has resources they can dedicate to that task.  :-(
16:41 chenryn well, how did timotimo determine whether to bench or not in one day? for weekly? start release? or just "seem this commit has a large improve">
16:46 japhb timotimo: Not to speak for him, but the most common thing people do is "every release, plus nom/HEAD as of the current date", and people are more likely to do the nom/HEAD runs at the end of a day of performance hacking, or when there's a reasonable question about whether an optimization for one thing makes other tests worse.
16:46 japhb Er, chenryn: Not to speak for timotimo, ...
16:47 japhb I'd love to have daily or per-commit runs, but ENOHARDWARE
16:47 Hor|zon joined #perl6
16:47 * japhb wanders off to dinner
16:47 japhb &
16:48 Ven_ same for us I guess then
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20:08 azawawi farabi6 with ANSI colors output pane support http://img.vim-cn.com/6b/55f3f2a04​aec25a1eb50818fe641a36e419766.png
20:13 [Coke] man, it takes forever just to delete directories on host08.
20:13 [Coke] wonder if there -is- some strange IO config regarding disk access.
20:15 rmgk_ joined #perl6
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20:18 timotimo http://t.h8.lv/p6bench/201​4-10-10-huge_history.html
20:18 timotimo this contains almost all of 2014 for rakudo-parrot, rakudo-moar and a few bits of rakudo-moar-jit
20:19 moritz [Coke]: non-cached IO is very slow, yes :(
20:22 FROGGS joined #perl6
20:23 gtodd joined #perl6
20:23 * azawawi wonders how to generate a p6doc index
20:25 itz p6doc-index build
20:25 itz I think the p6doc -f lookup is currently broken .. It did work a few weeks back
20:26 * itz is intending to look at it RSN
20:27 timotimo hoelzro: did you know you can have a "sub MAIN_HELPER($retval) is export { }" in your Subcommander module and replace the whole logic of finding nameds vs positionals and generating the usage?
20:28 azawawi itz: i noticed that and the index file is an empty hash
20:28 itz I was getting the index populated correctly
20:30 itz (under rakudobrew .. p6doc-index list returns results correctly)
20:32 * moritz just learned about the   open 0; print <0>  quine trick in p5
20:35 lizmat joined #perl6
20:41 gtodd moritz: thanks to APW ?
20:42 moritz gtodd: thanks to reddit
20:42 pyrimidine azawawi: I could easily seeing farabi6 being extendable to lots of cool things; e.g. ipython notebook
20:43 brrt left #perl6
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20:44 pyrimidine I should say: similar to ipython notebook
20:44 chipotle joined #perl6
20:44 azawawi pyrimidine: it is going into that direction. May later #PDL integration :)
20:45 pyrimidine azawawi: Nice!
20:47 [Coke] is host08 a virtual box?
20:49 Hor|zon joined #perl6
20:49 azawawi perl6: my @dirs = IO::Spec.splitdir($*EXECUTABLE);
20:50 azawawi std: my @dirs = IO::Spec.splitdir($*EXECUTABLE);
20:50 camelia rakudo-moar fd017a: ( no output )
20:50 camelia ..rakudo-parrot fd017a: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
20:50 camelia std fc92e1e: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Undeclared name:â�¤    'IO::Spec' used at line 1â�¤Check failedâ�¤FAILED 00:01 141mâ�¤Â»
20:50 azawawi moar: my @dirs = IO::Spec.splitdir($*EXECUTABLE);
20:50 azawawi rakudo-moar: my @dirs = IO::Spec.splitdir($*EXECUTABLE);
20:50 camelia rakudo-moar fd017a: ( no output )
20:51 Ven joined #perl6
20:56 Ven \o
20:56 hoelzro_phone joined #perl6
20:57 hoelzro_phone timotimo: I did know that, but I wanted to make sure that Subcommander was not rakudo specific, and I think I wanted features that MAIN_HELPER didn't provide
20:59 azawawi lizmat: ping
20:59 itz azawawi: probably still at AWP dinner
21:00 itz ^ APW
21:01 lizmat itz azawawi Ven o/
21:01 Ven \o
21:01 lizmat back in my room, but about to go to bed
21:01 Ven no, she wasn't
21:01 lizmat azawawi pong
21:02 Ven hehe actually, timo got back to the hotel, so I needed to run back
21:02 Ven because I forgot my own key..
21:04 azawawi lizmat: I was wondering why un-deprecate a deprecated thing and then i read the commit comment https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​c35341ea464b53f166f87c75cfd37d3aa44ad488  :)
21:05 azawawi lizmat: i build rakudo a lot and was trying the Ctrl-C trap solution and suddenly perl6 didnt complain lol
21:06 azawawi lizmat: so not a big deal. Sorry for the ping.
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21:14 lizmat sleep&
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21:21 dalek doc: ecd4aca | (Steve Mynott)++ | bin/p6doc:
21:21 dalek doc: unbreak example
21:21 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/ecd4aca1db
21:22 itz azawawi: thats one issue fixed .. I suspect you are seeing a path issue which I shall look at another day
21:22 azawawi itz: thanks
21:22 azawawi itz++
21:42 rurban left #perl6
21:45 tony-o BSc_tadzik: does panda's Installer.pm the thing that builds the .moar files?
21:46 BSc_tadzik tony-o: that's builder
21:46 BSc_tadzik installer only copies stuff
21:46 BSc_tadzik builder responsible for appropriate stuff to land in blib, in appropriate form
21:46 BSc_tadzik for .pm files that's turning them into .moar
21:48 tony-o is there a way to preserve the build log from panda ?
21:50 tony-o BSc_tadzik: i'm getting a .moar file that behaves differently from just a PP .pm6.  I'm trying to run the .moar manually and getting an exception that i'm not getting/seeing with panda
21:50 tony-o the .moar build ^
21:55 BSc_tadzik PP?
21:55 tony-o pure perl6
21:55 tony-o actually it works if i manually rebuild the mbc, it fails with panda
21:56 tony-o 2e7767b291587394255216deb5ed88b0  Pandapack.pm6.moar
21:56 tony-o c65ef5aac476a52044c74a30aea69da2  Pandapack.pm6.moarvm2
21:57 tony-o first one is built manually, second is built via panda (both with the same build command, I hacked panda Builder to echo the actual command run and rebootstrapped)
21:58 BSc_tadzik wow
21:58 tony-o wow @ md5sums or the result?
21:58 tony-o i feel like i'm taking crazy pills for the last 3 days
21:58 BSc_tadzik well, md5sums first
21:59 tony-o moarvm2 is 4 bytes larger
21:59 BSc_tadzik but well, if you ran exactly the same command as panda did and got a different result, I don't think it's panda's fault
21:59 BSc_tadzik something is super weird
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22:06 tony-o yea i'm not accusing panda of anything, i just don't know where to go to get better info
22:06 tony-o to whoever needs it
22:07 _slade_ joined #perl6
22:07 tony-o it's very consistent though
22:08 tony-o does it happen for you?  I'm building the .pm6 included with pandapack, here: https://github.com/tony-o/perl6-pandapack
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22:14 BSc_tadzik I'll check in the morning, now I need some sleeps :)
22:14 BSc_tadzik thanks for letting me know
22:22 arnsholt tony-o: If the size delta is only four bytes, it could very well be that the only difference is an inserted four-byte thing
22:23 arnsholt So maybe you could diff them? I don't think diff likes binary files, but if you diff the hexdumps, it should be pretty easy to see if there are many or few differences
22:24 leont_ joined #perl6
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22:47 ajr_ cmp tells you where there's a difference in binaries.
22:50 Hor|zon joined #perl6
22:50 tony-o cmp diffs them at char 53 line 2
22:50 tony-o i don't really know what to do with that info
22:51 tony-o i can see if they're different after that too
22:53 tony-o hex dump diffs reveal the files are pretty different
22:53 arnsholt tony-o: It's pretty useless to us mere mortals
22:53 arnsholt But hopefully it'll be useful info to the likes of jnthn
22:54 arnsholt Who actually know the bytecode format =)
22:54 tony-o i can replicate the issue on my macbook
22:57 tony-o .tell BSc_tadzik https://gist.github.com/to​ny-o/b8eca866073128527c15
22:57 yoleaux tony-o: I'll pass your message to BSc_tadzik.
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