Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-10-14

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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02:30 gtodd azawawi: I don't know about an API but masak did something like this for his blog posts:
02:30 gtodd m: sub REPL($line) {say "> $line"; my $result = EVAL $line; say $result if defined $result; } ; REPL "('a'.. 'd') <<~<<  ^6;";
02:30 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«> ('a'.. 'd') <<~<<  ^6;␤a0 b1 c2 d3 a4 b5␤»
02:30 gtodd ;-)
02:44 gtodd see https://gist.github.com/masak/f865b7d9dd33e535b501
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02:46 gtodd azawawi: farabi6++  ;-)
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04:06 pmnexus Good morning #perl6
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04:17 pyrimidine FROGGS: about?
04:19 pyrimidine .tell FROGGS I filed RT #122971 re: the :nl parameter in IO.open.
04:19 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=122971
04:19 yoleaux pyrimidine: I'll pass your message to FROGGS.
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04:32 pmnexus Afk, szg->fra
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04:57 timotimo o/ from an early morning
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06:10 pmnexus Good morning #perl6
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06:34 FROGGS .botsnack
06:34 yoleaux 04:19Z <pyrimidine> FROGGS: I filed RT #122971 re: the :nl parameter in IO.open.
06:34 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=122971
06:34 yoleaux :D
06:37 dalek roast: ae245a6 | usev6++ | S05-match/capturing-contexts.t:
06:37 dalek roast: Add test for RT #83508
06:37 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/ae245a65f6
06:37 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=83508
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06:38 FROGGS morning o/
06:39 bartolin good morning FROGGS \o
06:40 FROGGS morning bartolin
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07:00 tadzik morning
07:00 FROGGS tadzik: morning, I have missed you :o)
07:00 tadzik :)
07:00 tadzik I wasn't away that long :)
07:00 tadzik or maybe I was
07:00 tadzik maybe I slept through the last 3 months
07:00 FROGGS well, you were not in Salzburg
07:01 tadzik ah, that's true :(
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07:06 dalek roast: 7396503 | usev6++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
07:06 dalek roast: Add test for RT #88748
07:06 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/7396503e24
07:06 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=88748
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07:12 azawawi good morning #perl6
07:12 yoleaux 02:14Z <gtodd> azawawi: I guess it is not a REPL "API" but masak did this -->  https://gist.github.com/masak/f865b7d9dd33e535b501   :-D
07:13 azawawi gtodd: true but does it hold state? or remember variables?
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07:16 timotimo o/
07:17 pmnexus o/
07:17 FROGGS o/
07:18 cognome_ joined #perl6
07:18 pmnexus In case people missed it in scrollback : https://gist.github.com/pmichaud/460bc17afcc5ca93b6b1
07:19 lizmat joined #perl6
07:19 FROGGS ahh, it's you! :D
07:19 * FROGGS is reading now
07:20 masak pmichaud++ # draft report
07:20 pmnexus Yes, I'm logged in from my phone :-)
07:20 pmnexus Awaiting boarding of flight fra->dfw
07:21 masak (morgens, #perl6)
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07:22 timotimo we seem to not have any tests for proto tokens in grammars with multiple implementations
07:23 timotimo er, i mean, with multi tokens that have signatures
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07:24 pmnexus I'm hoping to have power outlet on plane for extended writing.  dfw->fra had power outlet, so there's hope
07:26 timotimo pmnexus: i see what you did there: "people are eager for it"
07:26 FROGGS_ joined #perl6
07:27 pmnexus timotimo: :-D
07:28 timotimo m: youhave: my $word and my @xe &(my &bow);
07:28 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: ( no output )
07:28 timotimo actually, |bow seems more appropriate
07:28 timotimo m: youhave: my $word and my @xe &(my |bow);
07:28 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/zLkmjNDkyDâ�¤Malformed myâ�¤at /tmp/zLkmjNDkyD:1â�¤------> [32myouhave: my $word and my @xe &(my [33mâ��[31m|bow);[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        scoped declaratorâ�¤Â»
07:28 timotimo hah, yeah
07:28 timotimo m: youhave: my $word and my @xe and (my |bow);
07:28 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/MAumbZZOAVâ�¤Malformed myâ�¤at /tmp/MAumbZZOAV:1â�¤------> [32myouhave: my $word and my @xe and (my [33mâ��[31m|bow);[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        scoped declaratorâ�¤Â»
07:28 timotimo interesting, we can only get a capture in a signature list then
07:28 timotimo yeah that makes sense
07:29 timotimo m: youhave: my $word and my @xe and (my \bow);
07:29 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/GECODjIN_zâ�¤Term definition requires an initializerâ�¤at /tmp/GECODjIN_z:1â�¤------> [32mouhave: my $word and my @xe and (my \bow[33mâ��[31m);[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        scoped declar…»
07:29 timotimo m: youhave: my $word and my @xe and (my \bow =0)
07:29 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: ( no output )
07:30 timotimo m: class You { has $word; has @xe; has &bow }
07:30 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: ( no output )
07:34 dalek Perlito: ef7a08d | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | misc/typeglob/import.pl:
07:34 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - typeglob vs. import behaviour investigation
07:34 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/commit/ef7a08d327
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07:47 timotimo m: grammar Test { proto token Foo(Int) {*}; token Foo:sym<a>(Int $a) { "a" }; token Foo:sym<b>(Int $a) { "b" } }; say Test.parse("a", :rule<Foo>);
07:47 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«Too few positionals passed; expected 2 arguments but got 1␤  in regex Foo at /tmp/kAsQHX1NCU:1␤  in method parse at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:14040␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/kAsQHX1NCU:1␤␤»
07:48 timotimo ven++ stumbled upon this
07:51 * masak submits rakudobug
07:55 masak waitwait.
07:55 masak why would you expect any different above?
07:56 masak .parse calls rule Foo as the entry point. it does so in the default way, with no extra arguments.
07:56 masak hence, since Foo takes one parameter, there are too few positionals passed.
07:56 timotimo oh, derp.
07:56 timotimo gimme a second.
07:57 timotimo m: grammar Test { token TOP { <Foo(1)> }; proto token Foo(Int) {*}; token Foo:sym<a>(Int $a) { "a" }; token Foo:sym<b>(Int $a) { "b" } }; say Test.parse("a", :rule<Foo>);
07:57 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«Too few positionals passed; expected 2 arguments but got 1␤  in regex Foo at /tmp/gavfFhMioV:1␤  in method parse at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:14040␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/gavfFhMioV:1␤␤»
07:57 timotimo m: grammar Test { token TOP { <Foo(1)> }; proto token Foo(Int) {*}; token Foo:sym<a>(Int $a) { "a" }; token Foo:sym<b>(Int $a) { "b" } }; say Test.parse("a");
07:57 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«Too few positionals passed; expected 2 arguments but got 1␤  in regex Foo:sym<a> at /tmp/4zOxzv1wQ9:1␤  in any !protoregex at gen/moar/stage2/QRegex.nqp:809␤  in regex Foo at /tmp/4zOxzv1wQ9:1␤  in regex TOP at /tmp/4zOxzv1wQ9:1␤  in method parse…»
07:57 masak I think if you want to call Foo with arguments, you have to do it from within the grammar.
07:57 timotimo that should work, right?
07:57 masak oh, ok.
07:58 masak yes.
07:59 pmnexus It's very likely to be NYI, I think
07:59 masak reporting it now.
07:59 timotimo huh
07:59 timotimo aren't we using something like that in rakudo's own grammar all the time?
08:00 timotimo also, ven++ found this:
08:00 pmnexus A proto regex with params? Could be, but v it'd be new to me
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08:01 timotimo m: role A[::T] { subset Test of Int }; say A[Int]::Test; # is this the right way to write this?
08:01 pmnexus Also, Rakudo doesn't compile Rakudo's grammar. :-)
08:01 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/XqDHJFTQEuâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/XqDHJFTQEu:1â�¤------> [32m[::T] { subset Test of Int }; say A[Int][33mâ��[31m::Test; # is this the right way to write[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤    â€¦Â»
08:01 timotimo pmnexus: that's true as well :)
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08:02 masak m: role A[::T] { subset Test of Int }; say A::Test
08:02 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«Could not find symbol '&Test'␤  in method <anon> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:13622␤  in any find_method_fallback at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:2725␤  in any find_method at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:988␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/3cm_yHSIJR:1␤␤»
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08:04 masak intuitively I'd expect A[Int]::Test to work.
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08:05 timotimo me, too. and ven, too
08:06 * masak submits rakudobug
08:09 pmnexus They're boarding the flight 15 people at a time... This may take a while.
08:10 * masak .oO( decaquintuplishly )
08:11 moritz pmnexus: congestion avoidance, probably
08:12 Hor|zon joined #perl6
08:12 pmnexus Has something to do with plane arriving late and needing cleaning, according to the announcements
08:13 tadzik heheh, I've seen that
08:13 tadzik "we're sorry, the flight will be delayed because it arrived a wee bit late"
08:13 tadzik and through the window you can see the airport stuff forcing the plane door open...
08:13 tadzik s/stuff/staff/
08:14 * masak .oO( if you're the lucky one among your group of 15, you get to clean your section! whee! )
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08:18 psch hi #perl6 o/
08:20 psch i saw the proto with args thing, and thought i knew something about that
08:20 psch but what i know fails as well, albeit differently
08:20 psch m: grammar Test { proto token Foo(Int) {*}; token Foo:sym<a>(Int $a) { "a" }; token Foo:sym<b>(Int $a) { "b" } }; say Test.parse("a", :rule<Foo>, :args(5))
08:20 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding $args; expected 'Parcel' but got 'Int'␤  in method parse at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:14038␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/OXbquIFgXu:1␤␤»
08:20 psch namely :args for .parse
08:20 pmnexus They let me on the plane. :-)
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08:22 pmnexus And yes, the seat seems to have power outlet.
08:22 timotimo \o/
08:23 masak power to the pm! \o/
08:24 moritz power to the nexus!
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08:25 FROGGS m: grammar Test { token TOP { <Foo(1)> }; proto token Foo(Int) {*}; token Foo:sym<a>(Int $a) { "a" }; token Foo:sym<b>(Int $a) { "b" } }; say Test.parse("a", :rule<Foo>, :args(1));
08:25 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding $args; expected 'Parcel' but got 'Int'␤  in method parse at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:14038␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/NCMXHAK5A5:1␤␤»
08:25 pmnexus Alas, the nexus must now be turned off.  See you all l
08:25 tadzik all available power to the phasers!
08:26 pmnexus See you all later from the other side of the Atlantic.
08:26 lizmat safe travels, pmnexus
08:26 timotimo safe travels!
08:26 timotimo i hopei hope the atlanteans don't shoot down the plane with their
08:26 dalek roast: c855d94 | usev6++ | S04-declarations/constant.t:
08:26 dalek roast: Add test for RT #111734
08:26 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=111734
08:26 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/c855d94be4
08:26 timotimo lightning-powered tridents
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08:30 FROGGS_ m: grammar Test { token TOP { <Foo(1)> }; token Foo(Int $a) { "a" } }; say Test.parse("a", :rule<Foo>, :args(1,));
08:30 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«「a」␤␤»
08:31 FROGGS_ timotimo / masak: you can pass args like that, it just does not seem to work with protos
08:31 FROGGS_ see:
08:31 FROGGS_ m: grammar Test { token TOP { <Foo(1)> }; proto token Foo(Int) {*}; token Foo:sym<a>(Int $a) { "a" }; token Foo:sym<b>(Int $a) { "b" } }; say Test.parse("a", :rule<Foo>, :args(1,));
08:31 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«Too few positionals passed; expected 2 arguments but got 1␤  in regex Foo:sym<a> at /tmp/zhNVOed8KH:1␤  in any !protoregex at gen/moar/stage2/QRegex.nqp:808␤  in regex Foo at /tmp/zhNVOed8KH:1␤  in method parse at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:14040␤  i…»
08:31 pmnexus Yes, nyi
08:32 FROGGS_ masak: very important: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-09-14#i_9356238
08:32 psch i had used that when fiddling with the cliopt stuff with an array, which explains why i didn't encounter the "expected Parcel" error i guess
08:32 psch as in, passing an array into :args
08:33 FROGGS_ pmnexus: I am just saying that :args in .parse *was* implemented lately, besides that issue with protos of course
08:34 masak maybe try :args with protos?
08:34 pmnexus Froggs: yes, I meant proto'd parameters nyi.   We're in agreement.
08:35 pmnexus Actually, I'm in a plane. :-)
08:36 pmnexus ... And I'll bbl.
08:36 FROGGS_ k :o)
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08:49 timotimo FROGGS_: it doesn't work with protos or regular multis either
08:50 timotimo GTK::Simple::TextView::⏏$!gtk_widget - this is not how i access the private attribute of a class that trusts mine?
08:51 ptc_p6 joined #perl6
08:51 timotimo that's TTIAR
08:51 moritz timotimo: uhm, classes don't have attributes, object have
08:51 FROGGS_ the sigil is never in between
08:52 timotimo mor er, yes.
08:52 timotimo with the sigil in front it works
08:52 timotimo how do i import our-scoped subs of my parent class into my current class to use them without any prefixes?
08:52 masak m: constant True = 42; say True
08:52 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«42␤»
08:52 timotimo i tried "import My::Super::Class;"
08:53 moritz constant &mything = &My::Super::class::mything
08:53 masak \o/
08:54 psch .tell TimToady http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-10-13#i_9499127 might have been http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-08-15#i_9188841
08:54 yoleaux psch: I'll pass your message to TimToady.
08:55 psch also, seeing as LSM in .trans was a temporal solution i could probably close my PR for the adverbs
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08:55 timotimo i think i'll want to decouple the gtk structs from the GTK::Simple classes
08:55 timotimo well, "the gtk pointers" really
09:02 timotimo bleh how can it be so hard to "is native" a library
09:02 timotimo Cannot locate native library 'libgtksourceview-3.0.so.1.so'
09:03 Ven joined #perl6
09:03 Ven o/ timotimo
09:03 Ven It's nice I'm able to talk to you from IRC, considering you're sitting in front of me!
09:03 timotimo yes
09:03 timotimo Cannot locate native library 'libgtksourceview-3.0.so.1.so'
09:03 timotimo what do i need to type to make this crap work? :P
09:05 Ven timotimo: talk to it more nicely
09:06 timotimo srsly though.
09:07 Ven https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition/blob/f9c8ae452922e1f9d97ddc7ee46b8de47e1e6976/src/main/java/com/seriouscompany/business/java/fizzbuzz/packagenamingpackage/impl/math/arithmetics/IntegerDivider.java <- this is why tim's idea of java2perl6 might not be what we want :P
09:09 timotimo Cannot locate native library '/usr/lib64/gtksourceview-3.0.so.1.1.0.so'
09:09 timotimo damn you, nativecall
09:09 Ven ... he went back to sleep :P
09:11 psch timotimo: you could hack around NativeCall by setting $*VM.config<load_ext> i guess? although that's kind of horrible
09:11 timotimo ugh :)
09:11 timotimo yes, it is
09:11 timotimo thank you
09:12 psch improving &guess_library_name would probably the sensible way...
09:13 timotimo changing it to "" gives me Cannot locate native library 'libgtk-3'
09:13 Ven is there a RT for the grammar bug thingie?
09:13 Ven oooh, we actually have "earliest" now :P
09:13 timotimo instead
09:13 Ven m: anon class is native {}
09:13 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/U8LXcbVUChâ�¤Unable to parse class definitionâ�¤at /tmp/U8LXcbVUCh:1â�¤------> [32manon class is [33mâ��[31mnative {}[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        scoped declaratorâ�¤        generic rol…»
09:13 timotimo bleh.
09:13 timotimo need star: use NativeCall
09:14 psch timotimo: looking at &guess_library_name and assuming you want to link 'libgtksourceview-3.0.so.1' i'd say pass 'libgtksourceview-3.0.so.' and set $*VM.config<load_ext> = 1
09:14 FROGGS_ star-m: anon class is native {}
09:15 camelia star-m 2014.08: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/aSEThRLyOJâ�¤Unable to parse class definitionâ�¤at /tmp/aSEThRLyOJ:1â�¤------> [32manon class is [33mâ��[31mnative {}[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        scoped declaratorâ�¤        generic roleâ�¤Â»
09:15 FROGGS_ star-m: use NativeCall; anon class is native {}
09:15 camelia star-m 2014.08: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/hBuIGVq8jEâ�¤Unable to parse class definitionâ�¤at /tmp/hBuIGVq8jE:1â�¤------> [32muse NativeCall; anon class is [33mâ��[31mnative {}[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        scoped declaratorâ�¤       …»
09:15 psch ...which is definitely all kinds of internals-leaking horrible...
09:16 FROGGS_ timotimo: I guess it should not append load_ext when the libname already contains load_ext (followed by optional digits and dots)
09:17 psch m: say $*VM.config<load_ext>; # but load_ext isn't neccessarily set
09:17 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
09:17 rmgk_ joined #perl6
09:18 FROGGS_ psch: how is that possible?
09:18 psch FROGGS_: i don't know.  it's the same on my local install
09:18 psch i haven't look into it
09:18 FROGGS_ m: say $*VM; say $*VM.config<load_ext>;
09:18 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«moar (2014.9.54.g.3.ac.9.a.7)␤(Any)␤»
09:18 FROGGS_ m: say $*VM; say $*VM.config.keys;
09:18 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«moar (2014.9.54.g.3.ac.9.a.7)␤crossconf staticdir defs[0] defs[1] dcbclean asmout dcclean lnclean auxclean shaincludedir dcblib exe dlllocal name ar versionmajor dclib jit lnlib laolib ccdef cppswitch dynasmlua ccinstflags dcrule ldsys cincludes asmswitc…»
09:19 psch fwiw, an old R* install on windows (where $*VM is still a hash.. i should upgrade) has .dll in there
09:19 psch maybe it broke during migration, no idea
09:21 timotimo FROGGS_: ŷou need "anon class :: is native"
09:21 timotimo it says so in the specs
09:21 FROGGS_ yeah, load_ext is gone somehow
09:21 psch m: say grep /^l/, $*VM.config.keys
09:21 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«lnclean lnlib laolib ldsys ld ldoptiflags lnobjects lddebugflags lib lddir ldinstflags ldmiscflags ldflags lnrule ldimp ldout laoclean ldrpath laorule lua ldlibs laoobjects ldshared ldusr␤»
09:22 FROGGS_ psch: I have nothing with '.so' as a value in there
09:22 FROGGS_ that might be a parrot thing?
09:22 FROGGS_ p: say $*VM; say $*VM.config<load_ext>;
09:22 camelia rakudo-parrot 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«parrot (6.8.0)␤.so␤»
09:22 FROGGS_ seems so
09:23 psch right
09:24 psch the windows R* i have is parrot as well
09:24 psch maybe moar never had load_ext
09:24 FROGGS_ right, that's what I am thinking
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09:31 timotimo so i thought hooking up gtksourceview to my live coding environment would only take five minutes or so
09:31 timotimo ... i at least have a gtksourceview in my window now. but it looks exactly like a regular gtk text view
09:31 timotimo now i'll have to bind a whole lot of crap to make syntax highlighting and font selection work
09:36 psch m: say $*VM.config<dll>
09:36 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«lib%s.so␤»
09:37 psch right, so that's where the '.so' comes from, not the else in &guess_library_name
09:38 psch makes me wonder how sensible and standardized the numeric postfixes for shared objects really are
09:38 psch i'm far from a sysadmin though, and it's probably documented somewhere why it's done
09:42 psch timotimo: on debian, the package libgtksourceview-dev contains a libgtksourceview-3.0.so, which is probably a symlink, which should make NativeCall find it i think?
09:42 timotimo nativecall is awesome, but this is painful.
09:42 timotimo really, really painful.
09:42 psch i don't know if you're on debian though :)
09:43 timotimo i'm on fus-roh-da 20
09:43 bjz joined #perl6
09:44 FROGGS_ psch: yes, the patterns of such a library name have some sort of rules across unixes... you sometimes see patterns showing up in configure scripts that locate libs
09:46 FROGGS_ that's from a P5 module I was involved with:
09:46 FROGGS_ ($found_dll) = find_file($ld, qr/[\/\\]lib\Q$lib\E[\-\d\.]*\.($dlext[\d\.]*|so|dll)$/);
09:46 FROGGS_ $found_dll   = $1 if $found_dll && $found_dll =~/^(.+($dlext|so|dll))/ && -e $1;
09:46 FROGGS_ ($found_lib) = find_file($ld, qr/[\/\\]lib\Q$lib\E[\-\d\.]*\.($dlext[\d\.]*|a|dll.a)$/);
09:46 timotimo blergh
09:47 psch timotimo: http://rpm.pbone.net/index.php3/stat/6/idpl/26639518/dir/fedora_20/com/gtksourceview3-devel-3.10.3-1.fc20.x86_64.rpm has a libgtksourceview-3.0.so
09:47 FROGGS_ $lib is something like 'gtk' if you had a libgtk.so, and $dlext is something like 'la' or 'so' or 'so|dylib|bundle'
09:48 timotimo timo@schmetterling ~/p/e/gtk_cairo_shooter (master)> rpm -ql gtksourceview3 | grep \\.so
09:48 timotimo /usr/lib64/libgtksourceview-3.0.so.1
09:48 timotimo /usr/lib64/libgtksourceview-3.0.so.1.1.0
09:48 timotimo btw, we ought to check out /etc/ld.so.conf (.d/*)
09:48 FROGGS_ we have to do that on our own? that sounds unlikelyish
09:53 timotimo right. maybe ld has something for that.
09:54 FROGGS_ dlopen should find your lib when just feed it 'gtksourceview', no?
09:54 FROGGS_ I guess we just mess with the libname in the wrong way before passing it off
09:55 psch fwiu, we shouldn't have to mess with the libname at all on *nixes, exactly because ld and such exist, no?
09:56 psch oh wait, we're not linking in the usual sense of the word, we're just loading the .so
09:56 timotimo just a day after APW2014, someone started the Anty Poverty Week 2014
09:57 FROGGS_ timotimo: but there is no angry mob yet in Salzburg?
09:57 timotimo that's not where they started that
09:58 FROGGS_ k, that gives room for hope
09:58 timotimo ven is off the train again, won't have mobile network connection until he reaches france
09:58 virtualsue joined #perl6
09:59 tadzik Anti-poverty week? Angry mob?
10:01 FROGGS_ tadzik: jnthn and/or masak cause trouble when they leave from somewhere
10:01 tadzik heh
10:02 FROGGS_ tadzik: and when there is no outrage this time in Salzburg, then probably masak is to blame :o)
10:02 FROGGS_ so, we'll know more in about a week
10:02 timotimo tadzik: have you checked out my game yet?
10:03 tadzik timotimo: not really :( I couldn't figure out what my system is missing, and now I got caught up with $work
10:03 timotimo all your system needed was cairo and gtk3
10:03 tadzik hm
10:03 tadzik will see
10:04 tadzik but all this confusion made me think that perhaps we want something that will make it both easier for developers to write nativecall code, so they don't have to write all this "libglib-2.0-dev.so.42", and for the users looking for stuff they have or don't have installed
10:05 timotimo yes
10:06 timotimo of course we do.
10:07 timotimo at some time someone suggested we'd have something like a module configuration class that you can derive from and pass to "native" or something like that
10:09 FROGGS_ that might also help us to define fallbacks
10:09 FROGGS_ i.e. fall back to a pure perl implementation when a C lib is not available
10:10 tadzik or fetch and compile that C lib, like Alient
10:11 timotimo that sounds like a ... great idea
10:12 tadzik and lots of work :)
10:12 psch apparently dlopen needs the full libraryname, while e.g. ld would construct it with prepending 'lib' and $ext and potentially versioning.  which means we have to figure out the whole name, which means we have to know what we need :/
10:13 psch unless i'm misunderstanding something that means we have to ask the ldconfig cache or duplicate it's functionality..?
10:14 Hor|zon joined #perl6
10:17 * psch has a feeling he's articulating intermediate steps that have been thought further by tadzik++ and FROGGS_++ and resulted in thing said by those two shortly before he wrote them
10:17 psch also i gotta run, later #perl6 o/
10:17 yeahnoob joined #perl6
10:17 FROGGS_ psch: see you :o)
10:24 anaeem1 joined #perl6
10:30 moritz (re library names) we aren't the only one who have those problems, right? How do other dyncall users solve this?
10:32 FROGGS_ I have no answer (yet) :o)
10:32 FROGGS_ I might have time for that in the next days, but more likely at the weekend
10:40 FROGGS_ damn it, I've got somebody sitting right next to me that is mumbling while reading his newspaper
10:40 tadzik reply to him
10:40 tadzik "oh, interestin!"
10:40 tadzik "hmm, really?"
10:40 FROGGS_ and when I have bad luck I have to cope with that for another 4+ hours
10:41 FROGGS_ tadzik: no, I fear he and one person sitting in front to me are mentally ill, so I probably just wince quietly
10:43 tadzik :o
10:44 SamuraiJack joined #perl6
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10:48 dalek roast: 09ff536 | usev6++ | S02-lexical-conventions/sub-block-parsing.t:
10:48 dalek roast: Add test for RT #114456
10:48 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/09ff5366a3
10:48 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=114456
10:55 timotimo i feel a little down... getting up so early is not for me...
10:55 ptc_p6 timotimo: what's early for you?
10:58 ptc_p6 normally, I mean ...
10:59 timotimo heh.
10:59 timotimo like 9
11:00 ptc_p6 ah, ok.  :-)
11:00 timotimo https://twitter.com/aminize/status/521426254902206464 - discuss
11:03 tadzik "u wot m8"
11:06 moritz ...
11:07 timotimo why can't we have data structures that have other data structures in them? :(
11:07 timotimo seems like that's a rather important feature for programming languages
11:07 timotimo still perl6 has nothing like that
11:07 timotimo that's sad
11:07 tadzik well, we just got rid of one (Parcels), right? :P
11:08 tadzik I think what aminize means is "lists flatten and arrayrefs don't and it's confusing"
11:09 tadzik compared to python that only has dicts and lists, right? No confusing tuples or anyting
11:09 timotimo in perl5?
11:09 tadzik timotimo: yeah
11:09 timotimo ah
11:10 FROGGS .tell leont: so, did I understand you right that I would need to look deeper into how IO::Uncompress::Gunzip achieves platformability in P5?
11:10 yoleaux FROGGS: What kind of a name is "leont:"?!
11:10 FROGGS .tell leont so, did I understand you right that I would need to look deeper into how IO::Uncompress::Gunzip achieves platformability in P5?
11:10 yoleaux FROGGS: I'll pass your message to leont.
11:10 FROGGS meh
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11:11 colomon pmichaud++ # draft report
11:12 * colomon still thinks there probably should be a list concatenation operator.
11:13 colomon something that distinguishes between @a, @b (list of two array refs) and @a SOMETHING @b (list is @a then @b)
11:13 moritz colomon: +1
11:13 Hor|zon joined #perl6
11:14 colomon probably should be lazy, too.
11:14 moritz maybe infix:<,,> ?
11:14 colomon infix:<++> ?
11:14 * colomon has no feel on what it should look like.
11:16 colomon though it's possible my thinking is backwards, and @a, @b is now @a then @b, and you need to say $@a, $@b to get a list of two array refs.
11:18 pecastro joined #perl6
11:20 FROGGS colomon: as I understand it it is about the context in which @a, @b are used
11:20 FROGGS the comma does nothing on its own
11:20 FROGGS [@a, @b] is an array constructor, and thus it will flatten one level, aka joining them
11:21 FROGGS (@a, @b) is equal to @a, @b and does nothing
11:22 timotimo aye
11:23 timotimo assigning to a list will also flatten, like @c = @a, @b
11:23 FROGGS which is like constructing an array :o)
11:24 timotimo yes
11:24 timotimo and $a = @b, @c ?
11:25 timotimo sounds like that will just create a list that will wait for a context to flatten or itemize
11:26 FROGGS you just drop the @c on the floor there
11:27 timotimo mhm
11:27 timotimo I thought that says for binding
11:27 timotimo was*
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11:36 FROGGS $a = (@b, @c) probably does what you meant
11:37 timotimo but parenthesis is supposed to not make a difference!  :P
11:48 abraxxa joined #perl6
11:51 tadzik what was that term for "inventing things before they're needed"?
11:51 tadzik I think I learned it here
11:53 FROGGS timotimo: yay, let's get rid of precedence and let it just dwim instead :P
12:12 pdcawley_ joined #perl6
12:13 masak re https://twitter.com/aminize/status/521426254902206464 -- flattening is a fairly unconventional design decision, yes. but it's not 100% bad -- a lot of nice things that we like fall out of it too.
12:13 masak and concluding that we can't have nested things because of it is just... misinformed.
12:17 nine_ I often miss flattening in Python code and even in Perl 6.
12:18 masak you miss flattening in Perl 6?
12:18 nine_ masak: easy flattening :)
12:19 masak m: my @a = 1, 2, 3; my @b = 4, 5; my @c = @a, @b; say @c.perl
12:19 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«Array.new(1, 2, 3, 4, 5)␤»
12:19 masak look, it's easy.
12:19 masak it's easy, and it flattens. it's easy flattening.
12:21 nine_ masak: then there's three more:
12:21 nine_ -> \self, |args { $.parent.perl5.invoke($package, $.parent.ptr, $name, self, args.list); }
12:21 nine_ my $av = p5_call_package_method($!p5, $package, $function, |self!setup_arguments(@args));
12:21 nine_ multi method invoke(OpaquePointer $obj, Str $function, *@args) { self.invoke(Str, $obj, $function, @args.list); }
12:22 nine_ Three different ways to make it flatten where in Perl 5 there's really only one.
12:22 masak well, when you put it like that...
12:23 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 5d4a377 | coke++ | log/MoarVM-version.log:
12:23 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
12:23 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/commit/5d4a3779b1
12:23 dalek perl6-roast-data: 6f41da6 | coke++ | / (4 files):
12:23 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
12:23 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/6f41da6721
12:24 masak it would help if we could at least have the same symbol for all those three cases.
12:24 masak once upon a time we did (`*`), but then we got two.
12:24 nine_ This would really belong into a 5 to 6 guide.
12:25 masak I never quite managed to internalize why. Python makes do with just one (for positional flattening on both caller and callee sides).
12:25 nine_ Oh and then there's method postcircumfix:<( )>(\args) { $.perl5.execute($.ptr, |args); }
12:26 nine_ In Inline::Perl5 alone I use three different ways to pass on arguments to a function.
12:26 nine_ And not by choice :) It's somehow required. Though I'm not entirely sure why.
12:31 Mouq joined #perl6
12:33 dalek roast: 1c4c535 | usev6++ | S04-statements/terminator.t:
12:33 dalek roast: Add tests for RT #115842
12:33 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=115842
12:33 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/1c4c5355d9
12:36 immortal joined #perl6
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12:43 laben hello #perl6'ers, how was APW hackaton?
12:48 FROGGS very enjoyable :o)
12:48 FROGGS and for some even productive I guess
12:48 FROGGS I was only semi produtive
12:48 FROGGS +c
12:49 kjs_ joined #perl6
12:54 nine_ I was even productive after going home :)
12:55 nine_ Conference Driven Development FTW ;)
12:55 carlin joined #perl6
12:55 laben nine_: can i ask you something about Inline::Python?
12:58 nine_ laben: go on
12:59 laben to build the module i do perl6 configure.pl6 and then test with make test, is that right? or should i use panda?
12:59 anaeem___ joined #perl6
13:00 nine_ laben: that's exactly what I do when developing
13:00 xenoterracide__ joined #perl6
13:01 bbkr_ joined #perl6
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13:01 laben nine_: thanks, that reassures me. I saw there was a Build.pm file so i thought there might be some panda action there i was missing
13:02 nine_ laben: btw. your interest boosts my motivation to continue developing :)
13:03 pepl joined #perl6
13:03 laben nine_: i get then a test failure in call.t at test 8
13:04 laben No such method 'test' for invocant of type 'Any' at line 107
13:04 guru joined #perl6
13:05 nine_ laben: that's expected. Supporting objects is next on my list to implement. I ported the tests from Inline::Perl5. That's why some still fail. But I'll make sure master always has passing tests from now on.
13:06 laben nine_: honestly i think that I::P5 is a good way to backward compatibility, while I::Py is the way to conquer a good share
13:06 gtodd nine_: Inline::Perl5 is fantastic :-D
13:06 nine_ gtodd: :)
13:08 gtodd If this was a private corporation  >50% "compatibility" of scripts would mean:  "runs the majority of perl5 scripts"
13:09 gtodd just sayin' :-)
13:10 laben gtodd: only 50%? what are the current limitations of I::P5? i thought only modules with stranger things (like source filters) would be problematic
13:22 pepl joined #perl6
13:22 nine_ laben: I guess modules named Perl6::* will not work ;)
13:24 bjz joined #perl6
13:27 gtodd laben: it is higher here ... I'm just using silly marketing terminology :-) ... some method for getting perl6 to autoload I::P5  v5 or whatever when it "discovers" you're trying to load a script with perl5  code would allow for lots of real world tests and possibly a large number of bug reports :-D
13:28 FROGGS joined #perl6
13:33 nine_ gtodd: that's what S01:108 wants
13:33 synopsebot Link: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S01.html#line_108
13:34 chenryn joined #perl6
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13:38 masak m: $_ = 2; when 2 { say "OH HAI" }; say "alive?"
13:38 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
13:39 masak should the mainline block allow `when` statements like that?
13:39 masak is it reasonable for execution to end when a `when` block in the mainline succeeds?
13:40 masak S04: "If the smart match succeeds, C<when>'s
13:40 masak associated block is executed, and the innermost surrounding block
13:40 masak that has C<$_> as one of its formal parameters (either explicit
13:40 laben masak: i'm but a simple user, but i wouldn't expect it to stop there
13:40 masak or implicit) is automatically broken out of."
13:41 masak I think it comes down to "does the mainline have a $_ formal parameter?"
13:41 masak and as far as I know, it doesn't. so it shouldn't work at all.
13:42 masak it's just that we currently don't have static detection of a `when` outside of a topicalizer block. there's nothing in theory preventing us from having it.
13:42 masak I would dearly like a second opinion, though :)
13:43 laben i see it as a code of block, just like an if or if chain. i wouldn't expect "when" to end the execution there, breaking out of the surrounding block
13:44 masak m: given 42 { when 1 { say "one" }; when 42 { say "forty-two" }; when * { say "ANYTHING!!!" } }
13:44 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«forty-two␤»
13:45 masak laben: but you are familiar with the above behavior, right? when a `when` succeeds, it stops looking inside the `given`.
13:45 masak (otherwise it would have matched that last `when *`)
13:45 laben masak: yes, but that's because of the given
13:46 masak nope.
13:46 masak it's because of the `when` succeeding.
13:46 laben i'm all right with taht, no falling down like C switch
13:46 masak which also explains why it exits the mainline.
13:47 masak which also explains why it exits the mainline.
13:47 masak m: for 7, 42, 1 { say "iterate"; when 1 { say "one" }; when 42 { say "forty-two" }; when * { say "ANYTHING!!!" } }
13:47 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«iterate␤ANYTHING!!!␤iterate␤forty-two␤iterate␤one␤»
13:47 laben masak: i understand that's because "when" succeeds, what i'm saying is that it should do that inside a given, not everywhere
13:48 masak here you also see the succeed-means-exit-topicalizer-block semantics, but without the `given` block.
13:48 laben to me a lone "when" is like sugar over if smartmatch
13:48 FROGGS joined #perl6
13:49 masak laben: well, I I'm arguing that the fundamental problem is that `when` is allowed outside of a topicalizer block, not that it has that semantics there.
13:49 masak to me a lone `when` is an error. preferably a compile-time error.
13:49 masak note: only the block form. the statement modifier form is fine and works like you prescribe.
13:50 laben ofc you could disallow when outside of given, after all if smartmatch works fine
13:50 masak I'm suggesting that what I want is already spec. except that the spec doesn't go all the way and say `hen` is forbidden outside of a topicalizer block.
13:50 laben masak: is there another way outside of  given to have a topicalizer block?
13:51 masak laben: `given`, `for`, pointy block with $_ parameter, routine with $_ parameter, `CATCH`, `CONTROL`
13:52 masak those are the ones that come to mind :)
13:53 laben mmh, but inside a for it doesn't exit the for which to me seems the surrounding block...
13:53 laben blegh, need some coffee
13:54 masak it exits the block, which cuts short the iteration
13:54 masak then the next iteration begins :)
13:54 peteretep or else it gets the hose again
13:54 laben basically like calling next
13:54 Hor|zon joined #perl6
13:54 masak yes, `succeed` and `next` are synonymous with for/when.
13:55 laben mh, i'm not sure i don't want when inside a for
13:55 PerlJam good morning #perl6
13:56 laben o/ PerlJam
13:58 PerlJam masak: that when-in-mainline behavior is surprising to me.
13:59 masak laben: that's OK -- I'm sure I want it :)
13:59 masak PerlJam: a number of bugs have been discovered in which the mainline acts a bit too much like a block that can be returned from.
14:00 masak m: return 42; say "hello?"
14:00 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: ( no output )
14:01 PerlJam seems like that could be a feature though (if we nailed it down sufficiently)
14:02 laben masak: right, and you're advocating to remove the possibility of having a when block outside a topicalizer since it brings that strange behaviour. if i understand your position correctly, i completely agree
14:02 leont joined #perl6
14:03 kaleem joined #perl6
14:07 PerlJam m: return 42; say "hello?";  sub MAIN { say "hi" }
14:07 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: ( no output )
14:07 Mouq m: say "hello?";  sub MAIN { say "hi" }; return 42
14:07 yoleaux 13 Oct 2014 16:27Z <moritz> Mouq: I finally installed your ssh key for perl6/doc - sorry that it took me so long
14:07 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«hello?␤»
14:07 Mouq moritz: Thanks!
14:08 PerlJam m: $_ = 42;  when 42 { say "hello?"; }  sub MAIN { say "hi" }
14:08 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/S9h0hAVs85â�¤Missing semicolon.â�¤at /tmp/S9h0hAVs85:1â�¤------> [32m$_ = 42;  when 42 { say "hello?"; }  [33mâ��[31msub MAIN { say "hi" }[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfixâ�¤        â€¦Â»
14:08 PerlJam m: $_ = 42;  when 42 { say "hello?"; };  sub MAIN { say "hi" }
14:08 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«hello?␤»
14:09 masak m: say "one"; sub MAIN { say "two" }
14:09 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«one␤two␤»
14:10 gtodd would bugs where mainline acts like returning from a block go away with a little more strictless and less "sugary"  'when'?
14:11 gtodd strictness
14:12 PerlJam gtodd: it would go away if the mainline didn't act like a topicalizer and if we did some static analysis during compilation that forbade "when" outside of a topicalizer
14:12 masak I don't think the mainline is acting like a topicalizer, even.
14:12 masak it's just that we don't check.
14:12 PerlJam right.
14:13 PerlJam I was trying to be explicit in that we don't *want* the mainline to act as a topicalizer
14:14 masak *nod*
14:14 gtodd I didn't realize it was doing that
14:14 masak there's nothing in the spec to indicate it does, or should.
14:16 FROGGS joined #perl6
14:16 PerlJam in a bifurcated universe, we could have the mainline act as topicalizer and support when-in-mainline as a feature.   Not sure if there's enough upside to even think about it though.
14:16 Mouq m: given 42 { { say "test"; when 42 { }; say "test2" }; say "test3" }
14:16 gtodd and if there's no million line program being used in some giant bank that depends on that ...
14:17 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«test␤test3␤»
14:17 masak PerlJam: pretty sure there isn't.
14:17 masak :q
14:17 * hugme hugs masak, good vi(m) user!
14:17 masak :)
14:17 gtodd hehe
14:17 Mouq I think that should only output "test"?
14:17 gtodd :w
14:17 * masak , just like Perl 6, tries to quit the wrong thing
14:18 Mouq m: given 42 { ->{ say "test"; when 42 { }; say "test2" }(); say "test3" } # should *definitely* only be "test"
14:18 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
14:19 PerlJam Mouq: I think *all* blocks get a $_ parameter and this is part of the problem
14:19 PerlJam (maybe)
14:20 Mouq m: {;}.signature.say; ->{}.signature.say
14:20 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
14:20 Mouq :($_? is parcel)
14:20 Mouq :()
14:21 PerlJam huh.
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14:52 tadzik Today is World Standards Day.  Except in the US, which celebrates it on the 23rd
14:52 FROGGS :D
14:52 chenryn joined #perl6
14:53 masak ^ autopun
14:53 tadzik it's also true
14:53 tadzik http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Standards_Day
14:54 FROGGS that's sad
14:55 rurban joined #perl6
15:01 carlin I would like to wish everyone a happy World Standards Day
15:01 carlin but I can't find the RFC that specifies the protocol for doing so
15:04 FROGGS :S
15:05 jepeway joined #perl6
15:06 gtodd
15:10 molaf joined #perl6
15:12 * gtodd looks on rosettacode for examples of "continuations"
15:12 gtodd ... a continuation sandwich in perl6
15:20 pmurias joined #perl6
15:20 masak m: macro M() {}; say &M
15:21 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«macro M () { #`(Macro|74368744) ... }␤»
15:22 rurban joined #perl6
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15:26 [Coke] even more parrot failures: S06-signature/slurpy-params.rakudo.parrot aborted 57 test(s)
15:26 dalek perl6-roast-data: cfa87b8 | coke++ | / (4 files):
15:26 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
15:26 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/cfa87b8c84
15:26 [Coke] this on top of the two failures we've been getting for some time
15:33 masak lol, I blogged! http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/macros-nesting-macros
15:33 masak I probably shouldn't expect the same awesome feedback as yesterday, when lots of people were collected at a #hackathon :)
15:33 FROGGS[mobile] joined #perl6
15:33 masak but, as always, feedback appreciated.
15:36 azawawi joined #perl6
15:43 gtodd masak: keep up the good work ... oh wait maybe you wanted useful feedback ... anyway your blogs are like a short grad course in CS so ++
15:43 gtodd :)
15:43 kaare_ joined #perl6
15:44 colomon ye gads, masak's done three blog posts already this week!?!
15:44 masak gtodd: as someone who never really did a CS degree, I am very flattered.
15:45 gtodd heh me neither
15:45 * colomon did a CS degree, but it was back in the dark ages when they thought it was a good idea to make IBM mainframe assembly language a required course.
15:46 chenryn joined #perl6
15:47 masak colomon: expect blogging to slow down from now on. I've been a bit lucky these past two days with $work not interfering too much with my Perl 6 time.
15:48 colomon ou'
15:48 colomon you're not going to be average 1.5 blog posts a day forever?  Damn.
15:49 masak :)
15:49 dalek Inline-Python: a64f55a | nine++ | / (3 files):
15:49 dalek Inline-Python: Todo failing tests for now and add some more.
15:49 dalek Inline-Python: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/commit/a64f55a08b
15:59 dalek Inline-Python: 252bf41 | nine++ | / (3 files):
15:59 dalek Inline-Python: Support passing Python dictionaries back to Perl 6.
15:59 dalek Inline-Python: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/commit/252bf41080
16:00 tadzik "The {{{ }}} syntax being universally hated" -- that should now be your signature masak :P
16:03 treehug8_ joined #perl6
16:04 dalek Inline-Python: 5852ce2 | nine++ | t/py_to_p6.t:
16:04 dalek Inline-Python: Fix UTF-8 test and un-todo it.
16:04 dalek Inline-Python: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/commit/5852ce2b12
16:05 dalek Inline-Python: cd96b59 | nine++ | t/py_to_p6.t:
16:05 dalek Inline-Python: Add one more test for passing non-Unicode strings back to Perl 6
16:05 dalek Inline-Python: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/commit/cd96b590d4
16:09 dalek Perlito: 89bf744 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | misc/typeglob/import.pl:
16:09 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - typeglob vs. import behaviour investigation
16:09 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/commit/89bf74480a
16:13 Hor|zon joined #perl6
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16:15 Mouq joined #perl6
16:17 pmurias masak: my thought on the blog: https://gist.github.com/pmurias/e341037f5e8495aaf457
16:18 dalek Perlito: 9b70863 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (2 files):
16:18 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - create $Perlito5::PHASE
16:18 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/commit/9b70863384
16:20 vendethiel joined #perl6
16:20 vendethiel Home! whew.
16:20 vendethiel masak: my Text::Intended is complete
16:21 anaeem1 joined #perl6
16:21 vendethiel ...I was more complete during that train ride than during those 2 hackaton days :-)
16:21 vendethiel I guess getting rid of timo gave me an energy boost :P
16:22 dalek Inline-Python: a65b7df | nine++ | / (3 files):
16:22 dalek Inline-Python: Support passing Bufs to Python
16:22 dalek Inline-Python: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/commit/a65b7dfb69
16:22 vendethiel nine_++
16:23 vendethiel I'll push it. I'm pretty happy with it, considering it's my 2nd grammar (the first one was when trying to explain actions to nine)
16:25 anaeem1 joined #perl6
16:30 dalek Inline-Python: 351e2b9 | nine++ | / (3 files):
16:30 dalek Inline-Python: Support passing Rats to Python
16:30 dalek Inline-Python: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/commit/351e2b90ab
16:33 anaeem1 joined #perl6
16:33 dalek Inline-Python: da0ed60 | nine++ | lib/Inline/Python.pm6:
16:33 dalek Inline-Python: Remove unused method unpack_return_values
16:33 dalek Inline-Python: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/commit/da0ed60b43
16:39 gtodd vendethiel: is it Text::Intended or Text::Indented .... :-)
16:39 vendethiel gtodd: It's Intended to be Indented :)
16:40 Mso150 joined #perl6
16:40 gtodd I personally would like a Text::Intended ... indented of course ... that would write things as I intended
16:43 gtodd instead of DWIM  a sort of  "do what I meant to do" ... it parses my applications and groks the overall intent and suggests fixes ... PBP and perlcritic but with a kind of neural network enhanced intelligence
16:43 vendethiel that seems terrible :-)
16:43 gtodd heheh
16:44 vendethiel there's a reason we don't write in natural languages
16:46 erkan joined #perl6
16:47 dalek Inline-Python: 95b6488 | nine++ | / (3 files):
16:47 dalek Inline-Python: Support passing floats from Python to Perl
16:47 dalek Inline-Python: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/commit/95b64882dd
16:47 gtodd :-)  users will perhaps need to choose a voice for perl6 in a future version ... at install time
16:48 dalek Inline-Python: 8849d3f | nine++ | / (2 files):
16:48 dalek Inline-Python: Support passing Nums from Perl to Python
16:48 dalek Inline-Python: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/commit/8849d3f1fd
16:51 rindolf joined #perl6
16:52 gtodd n: say "are you dead?"
16:52 camelia niecza : OUTPUT«Cannot open assembly './run/Niecza.exe': No such file or directory.␤»
16:52 gtodd k
16:55 [Coke] niecza doesn't build on mono 3
16:57 gtodd rats
16:57 nine_ Is there some simple way to iterate over a list and get the index as well?
16:58 gtodd since it wasn't a rakudo backend I only ever had it running once or twice
16:58 colomon nine_: .kv
16:58 colomon m: my @a = 132..138; say @a.kv
16:58 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«0 132 1 133 2 134 3 135 4 136 5 137 6 138␤»
16:59 nine_ colomon: excellent! thanks
17:00 timotimo vendethiel: i'm sorry i didn't jump off the train earlier
17:00 slavik joined #perl6
17:01 dalek Inline-Python: 46c420b | nine++ | / (3 files):
17:01 dalek Inline-Python: Support passing arrays to Python
17:01 dalek Inline-Python: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/commit/46c420b1b9
17:01 vendethiel timotimo: don't be :)
17:02 timotimo on the train i was sort of spitballing something like this:
17:03 rurban joined #perl6
17:03 timotimo proto method foobar is proxy { * }; method foobar() { $!frobfrob * 2 }; method foobar($val) { $!frobfrob = $val div 2 }
17:03 guru joined #perl6
17:05 timotimo it seems like that's already doable with regular traits and a bit of wrap
17:06 gtodd .kv is so cool :-)  it's one of those "little things" that is very nice about perl6 ... of course you can do keys and values on an array in perl5 too (say "$_ $a[$_]" for keys @a ;  #errm or something) but
17:07 vendethiel timotimo: maybe =)
17:07 ajr joined #perl6
17:07 timotimo gtodd: now here's a mind-boggler for you:
17:07 timotimo m: say "hello".kv
17:07 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«0 hello␤»
17:08 dalek Inline-Python: efc8caa | nine++ | / (3 files):
17:08 dalek Inline-Python: Support passing hashes to Python
17:08 dalek Inline-Python: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/commit/efc8caa2be
17:08 gfldex joined #perl6
17:09 gtodd heheh
17:10 gtodd m: say "hello person".kv
17:10 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«0 hello person␤»
17:10 gtodd doh
17:11 gtodd m: say <hello person persons>.kv
17:11 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«0 hello 1 person 2 persons␤»
17:12 dalek Inline-Python: caf7b40 | nine++ | / (3 files):
17:12 dalek Inline-Python: Support passing Any to Python (ends up as None)
17:12 dalek Inline-Python: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/commit/caf7b40a38
17:15 dalek Inline-Python: a0c7035 | nine++ | t/ (3 files):
17:15 dalek Inline-Python: Add test for precompilation
17:15 dalek Inline-Python: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/commit/a0c7035782
17:25 isBEKaml joined #perl6
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17:30 gtodd if you try to reverse a hash in p6 %hash.reverse nothing happens and you have to remember .inverse ...  should there be an error message?
17:30 colomon warning, anyway, I'd say
17:31 gtodd I say this because the autocreating of arrays (so dup keys don't clash) part of .inverse is just *awesome*
17:31 vendethiel can't really do anything. This is in the bag of "everything on any"
17:32 gtodd this will make people want inverse in perl5 or ... add "inverse" to their growing list of perl6 lovely things
17:32 gtodd colomon: oops yeah I meant a SORRY! :-)
17:33 grettis joined #perl6
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17:34 gtodd I could add an issue somewhere ... just to watch it get added so I can learn about warnings :-)
17:37 gtodd or perhaps the plan is to eventually merge slip/reverse/invert into a some kind of overloaded data type aware version of reverse ?
17:39 colomon hashes aren't ordered, reverse never makes sense on them.
17:39 vendethiel m: my $a = 1; say $a.push(3).perl # gtodd
17:39 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'push'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Any:U \SELF: *@values, *%_)␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/tXY5UZk0DY:1␤␤»
17:39 vendethiel meh
17:41 CRM114 joined #perl6
17:41 gtodd ok good
17:42 isBEKaml heh. reverse on hashes. :-)
17:43 isBEKaml yeah, what colomon said - hashes don't have any ordered nature like lists/arrays do. So reverse doesn't make any sense.
17:45 isBEKaml where's camelia?
17:45 dalek Inline-Perl5: 2f51f44 | nine++ | / (3 files):
17:45 dalek Inline-Perl5: Support import list in $p5.use
17:45 dalek Inline-Perl5: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5/commit/2f51f4410a
17:46 isBEKaml m: say 42
17:47 gtodd isBEKaml: agreed ... reverse becomes flip/reverse/invert ( of course I meant "flip" above ) and the invert makes more sense (I think people even talk about inverting hashes with reverse in perl5)
17:48 vendethiel m: 1.push(3).perl.say; #gtodd
17:48 vendethiel :( camelia
17:50 camelia joined #perl6
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17:52 gtodd the term invert is consistent, lovely and worthy of being highlighted when someone tries to reverse a hash :)
17:52 isBEKaml gtodd: :-)
17:53 vendethiel m: 1.push(3).perl.say; #gtodd
17:53 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'push'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Any:U \SELF: *@values, *%_)␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/w4EikOzYpf:1␤␤»
17:53 vendethiel what was it again :P
17:53 isBEKaml gtodd: I somehow confuse you with tobyink on perlmonks. No idea why :-)
17:55 * PerlJam can't stand much perlmonks these days ... too much NodeReaper and other such nonsense
17:55 Mouq m: my @a = 132..138; say @a[@a.keys.pick(3)]:kv # gtodd
17:55 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«3 135 4 136 5 137␤»
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18:16 * jnthn is home safely
18:19 vendethiel nice:) !
18:20 gtodd m: "hair".flip  # pay stylist
18:20 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: ( no output )
18:20 gtodd m: "hair".flip.say # pay stylist
18:20 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«riah␤»
18:21 jnthn The headwind that gave me a tight connection on the way out was a tailwind on the way home, so we were 25 mins early landing at CPH :)
18:21 gtodd m: "hair".comb.reverse.join.say # do it yourself
18:21 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«riah␤»
18:27 tony-o m: 'hair'.comb.perl.say;
18:27 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«("h", "a", "i", "r").list␤»
18:30 Mso150 joined #perl6
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18:47 bartolin I want to use something like the "std: <CODE>" locally. I checked out and built perl6/std from github, but I don't get an executable 'tools/std'
18:47 bartolin is the following mostly equivalent?
18:47 bartolin $ viv -c -e '<CODE>'
18:48 bartolin or how would I do that?
18:48 masak hm, I guess the question is "how does camelia do it?"
18:49 bartolin yes, that's what I mean ;-)
18:49 masak https://github.com/perl6/evalbot/blob/master/evalbot.pl#L178
18:50 bartolin aha, thanks!
18:50 * bartolin looks
18:52 Hor|zon joined #perl6
18:54 moritz (camelia never passes actual code on the command line, because of quoting trouble
18:54 moritz )
18:55 vendethiel kwotes
19:20 Mso150 joined #perl6
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19:31 masak pmurias: re https://gist.github.com/pmurias/e341037f5e8495aaf457 -- yep.
19:31 masak pmurias: from the blog post: "I think any more complicated than this and it'd be a slang. In fact, I don't mind if there's a nice, sliding scale, so that you can essentially evolve a cluster of macros of this type into a slang if you want."
19:42 kjs_ joined #perl6
19:43 gtodd m:  my @powers-of-two := 1, 2, 4 ... *; 1;   @powers-of-two[^10] # from http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2010/12/04/the-sequence-operator/
19:43 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«WARNINGS:␤Useless use of constant integer 1 in sink context (line 1)␤»
19:43 gtodd does the syntax from http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2010/12/04/the-sequence-operator/  need updating in a comment?
19:46 colomon m:  my @powers-of-two := 1, 2, 4 ... *; say  @powers-of-two[^10]
19:46 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512␤»
19:46 colomon the sequences are fine, I think
19:46 colomon the 1l was there to make the REPL happy.
19:46 gtodd in the REPL I get
19:46 gtodd @powers-of-two[^5]
19:46 gtodd Cannot call 'postcircumfix:<[ ]>'; none of these signatures match:
19:46 gtodd :(Any \SELF, int $pos)
19:47 gtodd ...
19:49 PerlJam gtodd: did you put "my @powers-of-two := ..." and "@powers-of-two[^5]"  on separate lines in the REPL?
19:49 gtodd let me look
19:49 PerlJam I think there's some bug there, but I'm not sure.
19:50 PerlJam yeah ...
19:51 PerlJam > my @x := 5,8
19:51 PerlJam 5 8
19:51 PerlJam > say @x;
19:51 PerlJam (Mu)
19:51 gtodd hmm yes and I got WARNINGS: Useless use of constant integer 1 in sink context (line 1)  ... then I ran it again on separate lines :-|
19:51 gtodd on one line it works
19:52 gtodd so is it easier to comment on the advent blog or fix any perl6 bug :)
19:54 gtodd later is probably more useful ... wasn't sure if it was an already reported bug
19:54 PerlJam RT#12294 btw
19:54 gtodd ok thanks
19:54 PerlJam er, #122914
19:54 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=122914
19:58 gtodd relatively new ... or newly reported ...
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20:20 pmichaud good afternoon, #perl6
20:21 jepeway good pm, pm.
20:23 jepeway so...got a q re .WHAT: i don't know how to append it to a string.
20:23 jepeway m: say 1.WHAT
20:23 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
20:23 jepeway m: say 1 ~ "eek"
20:23 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«1eek␤»
20:23 dalek Inline-Python: 8d6a813 | nine++ | / (3 files):
20:23 dalek Inline-Python: Support passing Python objects through Perl space and calling methods
20:23 dalek Inline-Python: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/commit/8d6a81300a
20:23 dalek Inline-Python: 8b44f1c | nine++ | / (3 files):
20:23 dalek Inline-Python: Allow passing Any to Python methods
20:23 dalek Inline-Python: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/commit/8b44f1cdf1
20:23 jepeway m: say 1.WHAT ~ "eek"
20:23 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Int in string context  in block <unit> at /tmp/TQgFvxvwGk:1␤␤eek␤»
20:23 jepeway hrm?
20:25 moritz m: say 1.^name ~ "eek"
20:26 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«Inteek␤»
20:26 moritz jepeway: .WHAT returns the actual type object. say() knows how to print it, but it's the empty string (+ warning) in string context
20:26 jepeway aha.
20:27 moritz to get the class name, use the 'name' method of the metaclass
20:27 moritz and .^method calls a method on the meta class object
20:27 jepeway aha-er - say doesn't impose string context.
20:27 moritz no, it calls .gist
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20:28 pmichaud So, I have a blog article drafted about the GLR, but before I post it.... anyone else besides me have any qualms (or answers) to the potential code breakage we're about to inflict on existing Perl 6 users...?
20:29 jepeway m: say 1.WHAT.gist ~ "eek"
20:29 camelia rakudo-moar 8b3e8c: OUTPUT«(Int)eek␤»
20:29 jepeway ok.  ty, moritz++
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20:31 azawawi hi #perl6
20:32 masak pmichaud: oh, I'm never looking forward to this kind of overarching changes... but I do believe we're in a better position than ever before to detect and handle the ecosystem upheaval.
20:32 masak pmichaud: and I do believe that it will be "worth it" for the consistency and performance benefits.
20:33 colomon pmichaud: as an existing p6 user, I have some qualms.
20:33 [Coke] I would recommend any changes for the GLR be done in a branch.
20:33 colomon pmichaud: but if we do it all at once, it shouldn't be too bad.
20:33 [Coke] then when we're closing to done, we can worry about bringing it back into nom.
20:33 [Coke] *close to
20:33 Hor|zon joined #perl6
20:33 dalek Inline-Python: 3f06038 | nine++ | t/call.t:
20:33 dalek Inline-Python: Fix and enable test for passing hashes to Python methods
20:33 dalek Inline-Python: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/commit/3f060380e1
20:34 colomon [Coke]: yes, absolutely.
20:34 colomon and I can easily hack the module smoke tester to work in a branch, so we can check out the changes against the ecosystem before merging them into nom.
20:34 CRM114 left #perl6
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20:35 masak 'night, #perl6
20:35 colomon o/
20:37 [Coke] I can also update the daily spectest runs to cope.
20:38 dalek Inline-Python: d708019 | nine++ | / (2 files):
20:38 dalek Inline-Python: Support passing Python objects to Python methods from Perl 6
20:38 dalek Inline-Python: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/commit/d708019687
20:39 [Coke] someone's being productive.
20:39 jnthn pmichaud: Guess you made it back home? :)
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20:41 jnthn pmichaud: While I doubt the Parcel going away will be a big impact, I find it much harder to estimate how big an impact the flattening changes are going to have...
20:41 jnthn pmichaud: And I'm wondering how well we can know without "implement, run tests, run ecosystem code"
20:42 colomon jnthn: see what I was saying above -- do it in a branch and I'll hack the ecosystem smoking to run on the branch
20:42 colomon guess we'll have to branch roast, too.
20:43 jnthn *nod*
20:44 vendethiel m&z²:1
20:44 vendethiel ermm...
20:44 vendethiel masak: my text::indented is here: https://github.com/nami-doc/nephrite
20:44 vendethiel masak: sorry - https://github.com/nami-doc/nephrite.pl
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20:58 vendethiel (I am very unhappy of how newlines are handled...)
20:59 gtodd pmichaud: answers++ but if there is a comments section that might be useful for q/a as well
21:01 timotimo i'm glad pm and jnthn made it back safely
21:03 gtodd one question I will have will be does GLR changes effect the pretty amazing level of feature parity for the backends  -m -p -j ... answer: probably no way to know until the switch is thrown :-D
21:05 jnthn gtodd: It will mostly be changes in CORE.setting, so in terms of feature parity I don't think there will be a big change here.
21:05 gtodd ++
21:05 pmichaud sorry, got called away
21:05 pmichaud yes, I made it home
21:06 pmichaud yes, GLR changes will happen in a branch.  I'm more concerned about massive breakage of stuff... such as we're changing the semantics of .map a bit so that it doesn't flatten its invocant.
21:06 pmichaud That's the one that concerns me the most, actually.
21:06 timotimo gtodd: there's a reason why we have .flip, .reverse, .invert; it's the same reason why we have + and ~ instead of just +
21:08 pmichaud [Coke]: btw, I'm planning to claim the blog post as a status update for the grant.  :)
21:08 jnthn pmichaud: Yes, that seems the most likely source of pain.
21:09 jnthn pmichaud: otoh, any .map on an Array (a common case) will likely be OK in a lot of cases, in so far as the assignment to the array is flattening.
21:09 pmichaud jnthn: oh, that's likely true.  I'm thinking of things where we do  .foo.bar.map
21:09 jnthn pmichaud: Indeed.
21:09 gtodd timotimo: I wondered about adding a SORRY warning for use of .reverse on a hash
21:11 pmichaud 20:32 <masak> pmichaud: and I do believe that it will be "worth it" for the consistency and performance benefits.
21:11 pmichaud oh, I don't doubt that consistency and performance will win in the long run, I'm just wondering if we'll get a lot of initial blowback about how we're often burning our existing userbase by introducing incompatible changes
21:11 * leont still isn't sure he understands the GLR
21:11 yoleaux 11:10Z <FROGGS> leont: so, did I understand you right that I would need to look deeper into how IO::Uncompress::Gunzip achieves platformability in P5?
21:11 pmichaud but hearing you say it's probably worth it is helpful :)
21:12 pmichaud leont: that's what my blog post will hopefully clarify.  :)
21:12 pmichaud and, fwiw, I was able to do an almost complete draft on the plane, as opposed to only select pieces.
21:12 pmichaud bbiab
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21:14 timotimo i like the sound of that
21:18 azawawi what sound? :)
21:18 jnthn pmichaud: fwiw, I just went quickly over my own set of modules looking for uses of .map and .grep. I dunno it's an especially representative sample, but it is code I could look at quickly. I found only one place that I couldn't rule out needing an s/map/for/, but I think it probably would be fine without that anyway...
21:20 leont The only uses I had doubts about were range.map and split.map, though I suspect they'd both still work
21:21 jnthn I think they'd be unaffected.
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21:25 timotimo azawawi: your irc client joining #perl6 of course ;)
21:27 denis_boyun_ joined #perl6
21:27 * azawawi is working on git diff/log/status support in farabi6 :)
21:28 timotimo oh wow
21:28 timotimo farabi6 is really learning a bunch of tricks
21:29 timotimo since you're looking to put farabi6 into star, would you be interested in giving farabi6 a conditionally active asynchronous ... thing?
21:29 timotimo if i understand correctly, running a long-running script will make farabi6's server-side features unavailable?
21:30 timotimo like, farabi6 would be blocked after executing some code would finish?
21:35 [Coke] pmichaud: (blog post, grant) Thank you for posting a status update.
21:35 azawawi timotimo: add an issue? :)
21:37 masak pmichaud: well, I never was in the group of people who might potentially complain about burning our existing userbase by introducing incompatible changes in the first place :)
21:39 timotimo we shall unleash some righteous perlfire on those who believe the list stuff would be fine staying the way it is now ...
21:42 colomon has pmichaud actually posted his blog post?
21:45 timotimo didn't see it yet
21:47 pmichaud range.map will be unaffected, definitely.  split.map should be unaffected.
21:47 pmichaud I've not posted it yet.
21:48 pmichaud It's drafted, but I need to attend to some formatting issues, and I drafted it while in a long metal tube next to what appeared to be a contagiously sick elderly russian woman, so I should make sure what I wrote makes grammatical and semantic sense.  :)
21:50 jnthn О нет! Hope you didn't catch anything...
21:51 pmichaud I don't feel like I've caught anything, but it's a little soon to tell.  I'll know by this evening.  I do know I loaded up on orange juice as a result.  :)
21:51 arnsholt jnthn: Let's just hope he didn't catch that weird one that makes people forget how definiteness works =)
21:51 timotimo agreed
21:52 pmichaud ...definiteness?
21:52 masak neither being elderly nor being Russian tends to be contagious...
21:52 timotimo you think being elderly is not contagious?
21:52 masak timotimo: it's more of an inherited thing.
21:52 pmichaud I know hanging around youthful people is contagious.  :)
21:52 timotimo it seems like it's extremely easy to contract, but often has a very long incubation time
21:52 arnsholt pmichaud: Overly specific language joke, sorry =)
21:53 pmichaud arnsholt: phew.  I was afraid I might've forgotten it already.
21:53 masak I guess it's related to Russian not having an article.
21:53 masak er, I mean "Russian not having article".
21:53 jnthn masak: That's the good theory, yes. :)
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21:54 * masak .oO( or is it "the article"? )
21:54 arnsholt That's good theory, yeah =)
21:54 * pmichaud reviews what he wrote on the plane.
21:55 arnsholt I had a Ukranian researcher on the neighbouring desk for a few weeks. She occasionally asked me for advice on definite/indefinite corner cases
21:55 * masak .oO( all the missing articles from Russian are counterbalanced by people who have to feed the the cat )
21:56 arnsholt *whoosh*
21:56 arnsholt Turnabout's fair play, I guess =)
21:56 BenGoldberg Even native English speakers will overlook the the, if one the is on one line and the other the is on the next.
21:57 jnthn It's a the the cat like the nyan cat?
21:57 masak arnsholt: hint: count the words in "feed the the cat"
21:57 arnsholt Oh. Derp =D
21:57 masak :P
21:57 arnsholt i rid reel gud
21:57 masak it's frightfully easy to just slip over
21:57 mauke /\<\(\w\+\)\s\+\1\>
21:57 masak indeed
21:57 timotimo oh lord
21:58 timotimo mauke: why would you do this %)
21:58 mauke oops, make that \_s
21:58 arnsholt Interestingly, definite/indefinite isn't cross-linguistically completely fixed. There are some examples (that escape me ATM) where English and Scandinavian disagree
21:58 mauke timotimo: not a vim fan? :-)
21:58 masak arnsholt: an easy one: en:"Nature"/sv:"naturen"
21:59 timotimo mauke: in my vim i can have \v and \V
21:59 masak arnsholt: another one: en:"life"/sv:"livet"
21:59 arnsholt Yeah, those are good ones
21:59 mauke en: "life is short" vs. de: "das leben ist kurz"
21:59 jnthn .oO( Well, that settles the nature/nurture debate... :P )
21:59 mauke also, "back to school"
22:00 mauke german would use a definite article (or is that "the definite article"?)
22:00 masak "the the" :)
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