Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-10-22

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 camelia rakudo-moar 368750: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
00:01 colomon hmmm, locally that needs the end to be want-three-arg-function(&x); wants-three-arg-function(&wants-three-arg-function);
00:01 colomon but then it works as desired.
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00:05 timotimo right, if you write just wants-three-arg-function, that's a call to wants-three-arg-function
00:05 timotimo you need that to be &wants-three-arg-function
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00:34 frew so how do I say, "this function takes a coderef that takes two args and returns an int?"
00:36 timotimo you would be able to write --> Int into the piece of the signature restricting thingie
00:36 timotimo with the hacky workaround, you can also write (&f where &f.args == 2 and &f.returns eqv Int)
00:37 timotimo eqv wouldn't allow int subtypes or roles applied to an Int, i believe
00:38 frew huh
00:40 timotimo explain your confusion?
00:41 frew I'm not confused
00:41 timotimo oh, ok
00:41 frew I just think it needs sugar ;)
00:41 timotimo yes, it does
00:41 timotimo it's supposed to have sugar, too
00:41 frew ah ok
00:41 frew so if the sugar worked, what would it look like?
00:42 timotimo sub very_picky_eater(&foo(Any, Any --> Int)) { ... }
00:42 frew beautiful
00:42 timotimo i'm not 100% sure about the syntax, though
00:43 frew sure
00:43 timotimo could be more like &foo[...] or &foo:(...)
00:45 frew timotimo: that where clause doesnt pares
00:46 frew parse
00:47 * frew tries &&
00:47 frew yeah that fixes it
00:48 frew looks like where clauses are not compile time
00:49 timotimo that is true
00:50 frew I suspect that it can be done somehow, since clearly arity can be verified at compile time
00:50 timotimo well, that way lies madness :)
00:51 frew how so?
00:51 timotimo it's a rabbit hole that goes deeper than you might think
00:51 frew what I mean is
00:51 timotimo especially if you have things that do method calls
00:51 frew the belief lies madness or persuing it does
00:51 timotimo in theory i could subclass Routine or something and give it a truly nasty .arity for example :P
00:52 frew all I want is to be able to statically validate coderefs and their arities basically
00:52 frew I'm ok with the answer being perl6 can't now
00:52 timotimo the sugared way is totally going to be compile time
00:52 frew but it's something I miss a lot
00:52 frew right
00:52 frew that's what I figured
00:53 timotimo the non-sugared way ... much harder to pull off
00:53 frew right, cause it's code
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00:53 frew and running code at compile time is a good way to never compile
00:57 timotimo well, we do have BEGIN blocks, but there the programmer knows she's exposing herself to danger
00:57 frew right
00:57 timotimo also, we're not doing very deep type analysis yet; like, we hardly infer types when assignments or calls are done
00:58 frew sur
00:58 timotimo i don't think we ever use the specified return type of a subroutine to figure out if the value we get from it is an acceptable type to put into a variable or call something else with
00:58 timotimo but that's something that we (or at least I) would like to have
01:00 timotimo and the language specs surely allow for it
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01:23 timotimo i'm going to sign off for the night
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06:07 masak_grr rurban++ FROGGS++ usev6++ # Parrot committers this month
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06:14 masak_grr bartolin++ # RT
06:19 dalek roast: 0e579ae | usev6++ | S02-magicals/dollar-underscore.t:
06:19 dalek roast: Extend tests for RT #113904
06:19 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/0e579ae7c7
06:19 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=113904
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07:07 Tekk_ tadzik: any suggestions for how I should handle testing of this?
07:07 Tekk_ this being the MPD module
07:07 tadzik unsure
07:07 tadzik I'd look at how Perl 5 does it :)
07:07 Tekk_ fair enough
07:07 Tekk_ it's pretty usable now
07:08 Tekk_ has more stuff than the old one at least; you can actually control mpd :)
07:09 tadzik cool :)
07:13 Tekk_ parsing is nasty atm though, just a bunch of regexes lined up
07:13 Tekk_ probably a much nicer way to do it
07:15 dalek roast: 14144ac | usev6++ | S19-command-line-options/02-dash-n.t:
07:15 dalek roast: Rewrite S19-command-line-options/02-dash-n.t
07:15 dalek roast: using is_run() from Test::Util
07:15 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/14144aca20
07:15 dalek panda: 8148bf2 | (David Warring)++ | bin/panda:
07:15 dalek panda: Don't install deps when just 'look'ing
07:15 dalek panda:
07:15 dalek panda: Refinement to last PR. Set :nodeps flag to stops panda installing dependent modules when just looking.
07:15 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/8148bf2830
07:15 dalek panda: 3db0fd2 | (Tobias Leich)++ | bin/panda:
07:15 dalek panda: Merge pull request #108 from dwarring/patch-1
07:15 dalek panda:
07:15 dalek panda: Don't install deps when just 'look'ing
07:15 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/3db0fd2d26
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07:31 dalek rakudo/nom: 76d75de | usev6++ | t/spectest.data:
07:31 dalek rakudo/nom: Run now-passing test file
07:31 dalek rakudo/nom: S19-command-line-options/02-dash-n.t
07:31 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/76d75dec47
07:31 dalek rakudo/nom: 315ec62 | (Tobias Leich)++ | t/spectest.data:
07:31 dalek rakudo/nom: Merge pull request #323 from usev6/nom
07:31 dalek rakudo/nom:
07:31 dalek rakudo/nom: Run now-passing test file
07:31 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/315ec62a78
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07:46 dalek roast: 1345d8b | usev6++ | S12-attributes/class.t:
07:46 dalek roast: Add test for RT #114230
07:46 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/1345d8bf7a
07:46 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=114230
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08:02 tadzik Tekk_: you probably want grammars sooner or later :)
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08:03 uniqueloop Hi there, am trying code that includes a     once { }  block that is only meant to be executed a single time.  But Niecza is saying 'once' is an undeclared routine.  But I see many examples of P6  supporting it.. What gives?
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08:11 Tekk_ tadzik: I'm not sure
08:11 Tekk_ because the format is so simple, I mean
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08:24 dalek roast: eae2dc7 | usev6++ | S04-blocks-and-statements/pointy.t:
08:24 dalek roast: Add test for RT #115372
08:24 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/eae2dc7bb7
08:24 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=115372
08:28 timotimo uniqueloop: hi there
08:28 timotimo uniqueloop: niecza has fallen behind with regards to features
08:29 timotimo can you tell me where you read about niecza that made you think it'd be a better choice than rakudo for trying perl6? i'd like to rewrite whatever text that was
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08:31 tadzik Tekk_: I think that grammars, apart from making complex things simplier, are also very useful for making simple things readable
08:31 tadzik they seem scary at first, but I think they're well worth taming :)
08:33 aristotle I want to concat a list with intermediate results, which would be  [\~]  -- except, I want to fold from the right instead of the left. but I can’t figure out any way to say something like  [\(infix:<~> but assoc<right>)]  -- is it just me, or is it Rakudo, or isn’t that doable in Perl 6 at all?
08:35 aristotle also while I’m at that, but of separate interest -- is there a way to declare that infix:<~r> is infix:<~> except it’s assoc<right> other than spell it out fully as   sub infix:<~r> is assoc<right> { $^a ~ $^b }  ?
08:35 timotimo hm, does the reduce operator actually understand right-associative operators?
08:35 aristotle yes
08:35 timotimo ah, neat
08:36 aristotle if I do the latter and say [\~r], it works
08:36 timotimo i think you can only use assoc and looser/tighter at the moment when you're declaring a new operator
08:36 timotimo rather than with a but or does "after the fact"
08:36 uniqueloop timotimo: ah, okay thank you.  That makes sense since it seems to have been a oneman initiative...
08:36 timotimo not 100% sure if the specs would allow you to do it that other way
08:36 uniqueloop timotimo, i just watched an old talk that Larry gave in Japan where he was using it instead  Rakudo because it gave better error messages
08:36 timotimo uniqueloop: yeah, i'm sad it's abandoned
08:37 timotimo rakudo's error messages have had a significant amount of improvement done to them, too :)
08:37 uniqueloop and became interested in P6... have to say, niecza was easy to setup... git pull ; make and i was away to the races
08:37 aristotle at this moment, but is it going to stay that way i.e. by design? (hence my “is it just Rakudo”)
08:38 uniqueloop i'll give rakudo a go now... thanks again
08:38 timotimo right; in terms of necessary commands, rakudo is also easy to install, all you need is to git pull rakudo, perl Configure.pl --gen-moar and make, make install
08:38 timotimo but it probably takes a bit longer than niecza
08:38 uniqueloop timotimo: perfect, thanks for the pointer
08:38 timotimo aristotle: that's what i tried to say with my poorly formulated sentence up there %)
08:39 aristotle uniqueloop: I used rakudobrew last night to install Rakudo first time. it was very nearly as easy
08:39 timotimo rakudobrew has the added benefit of being able to build panda for you as well
08:39 uniqueloop aristotle:  cool thanks... will go that way then
08:40 uniqueloop timotimo: http://justrakudoit.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/last-piece-of-pi/   is the blog that got me to go niecza way.. it was crowing about how both implementations could run the code now.
08:40 uniqueloop is the problem with the web... there's no big red flag when something has bit rotted
08:41 aristotle uniqueloop: did you mean: Matt’s Script Archive
08:41 aristotle what is Niecza’s status anyway
08:42 timotimo ah, i believe that blog belongs to lue
08:42 aristotle uniqueloop: there *is* one big marker even on the URL in that case, tho
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08:42 aristotle it says 2012
08:43 aristotle that’s a long, long time in Perl 6
08:43 timotimo it may be a long, long time in perl 6, but not everywhere else
08:43 uniqueloop aristotle: yeah, although I wouldn't have twigged onto it anyway.. because it was saying "this code now works in niecza"!
08:43 uniqueloop but... obviously it was just a link to code that had changed since way back then
08:44 aristotle it’s before MoarVM even existed I think
08:44 Tekk_ uniqueloop: oh, what does your code smell like?
08:44 Tekk_ the talk
08:44 uniqueloop Tekk_:  yes
08:45 aristotle timotimo: well that’s why I said it that way :)
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08:45 Tekk_ I am kinda disappointed with parrot
08:45 Tekk_ does it actually have much of a reason for existing now that perl has abandoned it?
08:45 * aristotle . o O ( who ain’t? )
08:46 timotimo we haven't fully abandoned it
08:46 timotimo rurban and some others have put in some nice work for this release
08:46 timotimo and there was a nice GSoC project, too
08:46 timotimo but ... yeah :(
08:46 Tekk_ yeah
08:46 Tekk_ I like the idea of it
08:46 Tekk_ but the implementation is...hardly ideal
08:47 Tekk_ although
08:47 Tekk_ I guess you could take a very liberal interpretation and say that it helped push sun/oracle and MS into improving the dynamic capabilities of their VMs
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08:49 Tekk_ their wiki ssl cert expired over 3 years ago..
08:49 dalek roast: 18a47ab | usev6++ | S06-operator-overloading/sub.t:
08:49 dalek roast: Add test for RT #115724
08:49 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/18a47abfb3
08:49 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=115724
08:50 timotimo whose wiki's cert?
08:50 Tekk_ parrot's
08:51 Tekk_ also worth noting that 2/3 of the languages listed as active on parrot's site haven't had any real work done in at least 2 years :/
08:51 Tekk_ lua hasn't been touched in what looks like 4 years, winxed had some tests updated a year ago, some examples updated 8 months ago, but no work on the language in 2 years..
08:52 timotimo well, winxed is kind of sort of "finished", no?
08:52 Tekk_ dunno
08:52 Tekk_ I've never looked at it until right now
08:52 Tekk_ I don't like js
08:54 tadzik lua was actually a complete implementation at some point, so it may not need to be touched :)
08:55 Tekk_ hm, fair point with that
08:56 Tekk_ it's .1 behind now (5.1 vs 5.2),  but the 5.3 alpha isout
08:56 * Tekk_ is installing parrot to play around with implementing a toy language
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08:59 Tekk_ I guess it's probably still useful for language prototyping
08:59 Tekk_ but I'm nowhere near an expert on such things
09:04 timotimo i think prototyping a language with nqp is a bit better; you also get to run it on jvm and moarvm in addition to parrot
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09:21 pmurias Tekk_: nqp + MoarVM is a much better platform to prototype your language on
09:23 pmurias Tekk_: I think it's best currently to generate QAST instead of pir
09:26 timotimo aye, moarvm lets you develop faster
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09:28 Tekk_ alright
09:28 Tekk_ I'll look into that then
09:30 uniqueloop timotimo / aristotle : p6/moar now running and i'm once {block}'ing all over the place ;o)  thanks for the help
09:30 timotimo yw :)
09:32 uniqueloop startup time for an empty program is 1/5 of what it was for niecza.  very nice.
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09:40 timotimo moarvm has quite a few tricks up its sleeve nowadays
09:42 moritz with ~150ms, startup time is not a burden anymore when used interactively
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09:48 timotimo and the repl itself is up after just ~20ms
09:50 masak_grr yes, startup time for scripts and the REPL basically doesn't bother me anymore.
09:51 timotimo uh oh, masak is in grr mode again
09:51 masak_grr I think it was stormy on the IRCs last night.
09:51 masak_grr went and lost my nick again.
09:51 masak_grr all will be normal, soon.
09:55 masak_grr TIL that the opposite of "equivalence relation" is "apartness relation". it's used in some constructive mathematics.
09:55 uniqueloop apartness relation sounds like something gweneth paltrow would call her ex
09:56 masak_grr uniqueloop: hey, I don't believe I have said hi to you. hi.
09:56 uniqueloop hi there masak_grr :o)
09:57 masak_grr uniqueloop: welcome to #perl6. sorry for camelia being down. the rest of us are ready to help, though.
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09:57 uniqueloop already been nudged in the right direction, and am playing with p6 for first time.
09:58 masak_grr \o/
09:58 uniqueloop __/\_____\o/____      <<< oh oh.. shark in the water
09:58 FROGGS *g*
09:59 masak_grr it's me. sorry.
09:59 masak_grr they told me to bring this fin.
09:59 uniqueloop heh
09:59 FROGGS phew   ________o______________)\____
09:59 uniqueloop only took your arms
09:59 masak_grr FROGGS: oh no, shark took your arms!
09:59 * masak_grr hands FROGGS his arms back
10:00 FROGGS :o)
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10:38 timotimo .o( hands, arms, back ... )
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11:06 Perl6newbie I found the feature comparison of the various compilers and I must say that they don't seemed to have changed much. Are those sites being updated regularly?
11:07 Perl6newbie I checked that we page long ago and it doesn't seem like anything has changed when I just checked it again.
11:07 Perl6newbie Sorry for the spelling errors. I am using an iPad.
11:07 Perl6newbie It is difficult to tot and it auto-miscorrects things
11:08 Perl6newbie See^
11:08 Perl6newbie That meant type.
11:08 tadzik Perl6newbie: any particular things you're missing?
11:09 tadzik Perl6newbie: there's a been a lot of work on polishing the little things lately, no big news like "we now have concurrency" anymore
11:09 colomon tadzik: please see your ClassX::StrictConstructor pull requests.  ;)
11:09 tadzik colomon: oh, right on it
11:10 tadzik I swear it, one of these weekends I'll write a tool in perl 6 that uses github api to poke me about outstanding bugs and pull requests
11:10 tadzik colomon: wow, thanks. No idea how it worked before that
11:10 tadzik (maybe it did not :o)
11:12 Perl6newbie Don't you guys think you are getting bogged down in the details? How many years has it been? Groovy Ceylon etc were in development well after perl6 and they are done.
11:14 Perl6newbie The VIM guy will probably finish his one man show programming language before perl6 Is done.
11:15 tadzik wake me up when C99 has a complete implementation
11:15 colomon tadzik: My guess is it never worked.  :)
11:16 colomon (ClassX::StrictConstructor, that is, not C99.)
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11:16 tadzik (both) :P
11:19 masak_grr Perl6newbie: thank you for your unsolicited opinion about the Perl 6 development process.
11:19 masak_grr Perl6newbie: I can only answer for myself. no, I don't think we're getting "bogged down in the deatils".
11:19 colomon Perl6newbie: the thing is, Perl 6 development is *not* bogged down.  It's slow, but there's clear, regular progress in spec, tests, and implementation.
11:19 masak_grr what colomon said.
11:19 masak_grr we're following some kind of path to some kind of completion.
11:20 vladtz for some definition of some :-)
11:20 abraxxa Perl6newbie: what is Groovy Ceylon?
11:20 abraxxa some sort of English breakfast tea?
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11:22 smls moritz, Mouq, anyone else interested in Perl 6 documentation/teaching resouces: What do you think of this way to visualize Perl 6 data structures? http://imgur.com/a/An3k4
11:24 smls (inspired by the diagrams on http://www.dlugosz.com/Perl6/web/info-model-1.html -- but I wanted to come up with something more compact & newbie-friendly)
11:24 rurban smls: there exist such automatic graph tools for data, forget the name
11:24 abraxxa i like it
11:24 rurban but looks very nice
11:26 vladtz yes, looks good.
11:27 smls thanks
11:28 abraxxa smls: is the list inside list example correct? what does the $?
11:29 abraxxa the legend says the violet border means item container
11:29 abraxxa is this a pointer to a list?
11:29 smls it puts the list in an item container
11:30 smls same as calling the .item method on it
11:30 smls although in current Rakudo those would be Parcels not List's, but I'm already thinking post-GLR... :)
11:30 abraxxa what to in perl5 land does an item container compare too?
11:30 abraxxa i've read taht Parcels (whatever they are) go away
11:30 abraxxa the simpler the better
11:31 abraxxa i remember i had a hard time to understand why a list element can't be a list/array itself but only a reference (pointer) to one
11:32 smls abraxxa: item containers are sort of like P5 references, but less explicit
11:32 smls they prevent flattening of what's inside them
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11:35 smls rurban, others: Superficial prettyness aside though, is this a sensible way to present P6 data structures?Does it help readers to form the right mental image of how P6 works? Will it run into problems with more complex cases?
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11:49 smls abraxxa: More important than preventing flattening, is that an item container's content can be replaced at any time, which is what makes it possible to do imperative programming in Perl 6 despite the fact that most of the basic types (Str, Int, ...) are immutable.
11:50 lizmat smls: without looking at the nitty gritty of the presentation, I like it
11:50 lizmat wonder though how native variables, arrays would look like
11:51 lizmat "my int $foo = 42"  for instance
11:52 smls TBH I'm not clear on the semantics of that
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11:53 lizmat TBH, I'm not either...  and wonder how much change NSA will bring
11:54 masak_grr smls++ # http://imgur.com/a/An3k4
11:55 masak_grr smls: any chance that could be "productized" into something that can run automatically on some variable or data?
11:55 dalek specs: 5a5d4e0 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S99-glossary.pod:
11:55 dalek specs: Add lemma for NSA
11:55 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/5a5d4e00a3
11:58 smls masak: I was thinking more along the lines of having it generated from text written in a custom DSL (see the SVG file linked at the end for my ideas on that so far)
11:59 smls Generating it from live P6 objects would be theoretically possible I suppose, though it would have to be made very robust then :)
11:59 smls Also, can you introspect which lexpad entries are linked to a given data structure?
12:00 moritz smls++
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12:02 * lizmat was nudged by woolfy to fill in her APW Hackathon achievements: http://act.useperl.at/apw2014/wiki?node=HackathonAchievments
12:02 lizmat have you done yours?
12:03 lizmat smls++ indeed!!
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12:04 colomon Hmmm.  On my system, Compress::Zlib fails with Cannot locate native library 'libz.so.1.so'
12:04 colomon seems like that's one too many .so
12:05 lizmat .oO( that's only so-so }
12:05 moritz smls: the difficulty with generating such things is that you don't know the width of rendered text at the time you write the SVG
12:06 masak that tends to be the one stumbling block when I generate SVG.
12:06 timotimo smls: beautiful!
12:06 masak it's possible to get around if you're willing to shell out to an SVG renderer, for example Inkscape.
12:08 raiph imaginary-m: say 1, [2, 3] # does that currently flatten the 2,3? after the GLR?
12:09 moritz no, and no
12:09 * masak is of the opinion that it's a mistake to stringify arrays as we currently do in Perl 6
12:10 masak for more on this, see https://github.com/masak/data-pretty
12:10 smls moritz, masak: Is there no existing layout engine that can render to SVG and take care of calculating widths and applying margin/padding?
12:10 masak smls: sure there is.
12:11 masak smls: if you do it all in JavaScript in the browser, for example, all the information is available at runtime.
12:11 masak the DOM nodes in the SVG have appropriate properties and methods.
12:11 lizmat masak: so why don't we just import Data::Pretty into the settings ?
12:12 masak lizmat: because (as far as I know) this remains my personal opinion, and not consensus.
12:12 * moritz would be +1
12:12 masak I'd particularly like explicit agreement from TimToady, who I'm sure has thought about the stringification of things once or twice.
12:12 masak or, heck, a nod would be enough :>
12:14 lizmat fwiw, I would go for forgiveness
12:14 lizmat case in point: recent Supply.drip/item changes
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12:15 raiph moritz: thx. and cool. that's what I thought.
12:17 raiph masak: thanks, and nice module, and +1
12:17 colomon Ah, looks like https://github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/commit/97863bb63ccbc0a70602f61a331801889d84b60e broke native call's handling of Compress::Zlib
12:17 masak lizmat: it's a bit of a level difference, methinks. API naming vs differences in every output ever
12:18 lizmat masak: is there much spectest breakage with this?
12:19 masak ooh, good question.
12:19 masak I might have time to find out tonight.
12:19 haroldwu joined #perl6
12:20 masak but it might also break the ecosystem in unforseen ways
12:20 lizmat ok, so at least something for after tomorrow's release
12:22 masak aye.
12:22 masak then we have a whole month to test fallout of the change, too
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12:41 colomon do we have an "edit file in place" command line option for rakudo?
12:42 colomon -p close enough, I guess
12:45 moritz no -i option though
12:45 JimmyZ joined #perl6
12:46 masak ooh, an -i option would be nice to have
12:49 smls .oO( for $file.lines-rw { $_ ~~ s/foo/bar/ } )
12:51 moritz Tile::File!
12:51 moritz erm
12:51 moritz Tie::File
12:53 Ven joined #perl6
12:53 Ven colomon: really? damn!
12:54 Ven it fixed a failure on gtk::simple for me :(
12:54 tadzik :o
12:54 Ven :o to you too, tadzik
12:54 colomon Ven: it's okay, I'm fixing Compress::Zlib right now
12:54 Ven colomon: I might very well have broken it, y'know
12:54 Ven that'sprobably what happened...
12:55 colomon as far as I can tell, it's Zlib that's wrong
12:55 colomon it was doing is native('libz.so.1')
12:55 Ven ah, maybe then :P
12:56 Ven fair enough. I fixed it for supporting stuff like foo-1.2.3 (DOT NUMBER)
12:56 colomon your patch (it was yours?) stopped recognizing .so.1 as a "use this exactly" extension
12:56 JimmyZ well. on ubuntu ,it 's  all *.so.1
12:56 colomon but I don't see why native('zlib') isn't used
12:56 colomon and that works great on my Linux and OS X machines
12:56 JimmyZ and no *.so
12:57 Ven colomon: yes, it was mine
12:57 Ven (I'm not more nami-doc on github,though!)
12:57 Ven (FROGGS++)
12:58 colomon it seems to me expressing the lib's full name instead of the short name is the wrong thing to do.  I mean, zlib.so.1 is never going to work on Windows, is it?
12:58 Ven not even on osx
12:58 Ven it's .dylib on osx
12:59 colomon hmmm, yes
13:00 colomon right
13:00 cognominal Apparently Ven is now https://github.com/vendethiel on github
13:00 Ven apparently
13:00 cognominal breaking links is a way of web life
13:01 Ven not really.
13:01 Ven github.com/nami-doc/nephrite click on that ;-)
13:02 woolfy joined #perl6
13:02 colomon retupmoca: Just issued a pull request for P6-Compress-Zlib-Raw
13:02 cognominal Ven, how do you/github pull that magic?
13:02 Ven cognominal:  github has redirects. has had them for a while :)
13:03 cognominal does not work for https://github.com/Nami-Doc though
13:03 Ven yep
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13:08 FROGGS Ven++!
13:08 dalek Perlito: 579f6b2 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (3 files):
13:08 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - add standard tests for split() - failed 49/81
13:08 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/commit/579f6b2977
13:08 Ven FROGGS: I wanted a brighter future for your kids. A future where people have better pseudos! :P
13:09 FROGGS *g*
13:12 moritz that's the disadvantage of big networks like freenode and githu
13:12 moritz b
13:13 moritz Ven: in Norwegian, "venn" means "friend", so I have a hard time not to read "Ven" and "buddy" or so :-)
13:13 Ven moritz: I'm fine with being your buddy!
13:18 baest moritz: Ven means friend in Danish (and actually spelled 'ven') so even more reason to read it like that
13:20 moritz baest: :-)
13:24 Ven now I like this nick even more :P
13:25 dalek Perlito: b98de35 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (2 files):
13:25 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - standard tests for split() - failed 18/81
13:25 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/commit/b98de35af1
13:31 dalek ecosystem: 9875d68 | colomon++ | META.list:
13:31 dalek ecosystem: Move IoC to perl6-community-modules
13:31 dalek ecosystem:
13:31 dalek ecosystem: This lets us get needed fixes into the ecosystem.  (No objection to returning control to Jason May if he fixes his version!)
13:31 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/9875d68ae3
13:32 tadzik heh, perhaps I should move all mine there too :|
13:32 masak tadzik: I had the same thought.
13:34 colomon I dunno if there's a lot of point to moving yours if you are responsive to pull requests.  :)
13:37 masak I knew there was a backside to responding to those pull requests! :P
13:37 bjz joined #perl6
13:38 tadzik colomon: I'm responsive if I'm poked about it on the IRC
13:39 tadzik sometimes I accidentally see a bug report opened by someone I don't know half a year ago
13:39 tadzik probably they just waited, waited and said "screw it, this is hopeless"
13:39 tadzik and it makes me sad
13:39 colomon tadzik: on the flip side, rakudobrew and panda are important enough it might make sense to give them to the community.
13:39 tadzik yep
13:40 Ven right
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14:00 dalek Perlito: ee5b3b7 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (3 files):
14:00 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - standard tests for split() - failed 15/81
14:00 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/commit/ee5b3b7c89
14:00 cognominal joined #perl6
14:16 dalek Perlito: b9343ae | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (2 files):
14:16 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - standard tests for split() - failed 13/81
14:16 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/commit/b9343ae2f9
14:16 retupmoca colomon: merged
14:16 colomon retupmoca++
14:17 retupmoca colomon++ :)
14:35 thou joined #perl6
14:37 * colomon reckons that if we can duplicate today's improvement in the number of passing modules tomorrow, we'll hit 200+ passing modules.
14:39 timotimo colomon: how many of those modules have next to no tests? :(
14:39 colomon timotimo: no easy way for me to tell
14:40 colomon timotimo: if you want to go through the module list...
14:46 timotimo should be able to hack something up with panda look
14:47 timotimo .o( not saying i'm going to )
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14:47 timotimo maybe the emmentaler script could be taught a tiny bit of TAP, so that it can record the number of tests run
14:48 FROGGS I'd like to see Panda::Reporter though
14:49 timotimo that sounds like a nice thing to have
14:49 timotimo is that supposed to report all installations you do?
14:49 timotimo or just when you give it the "permission"
14:49 FROGGS in case you enable it, yes
14:54 treehug88 joined #perl6
14:57 FROGGS though, I'd like it to ask on first use, ala: Generate and submit test reports (yes/no/ask)? [yes]
14:59 treehug88 joined #perl6
15:00 timotimo (but only if isatty ...)
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15:11 dalek Perlito: de0910b | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (2 files):
15:11 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - js - refactor split()
15:11 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/commit/de0910bd64
15:15 Tekk_ timotimo: You know of any simple langs built on nqp+moar?
15:15 * Tekk_ is out of class so he has some time to play around with that now :P
15:16 timotimo yeah
15:17 timotimo we have a rubyish and the Rakudo and NQP Internals Workshop material teaches you how to implement a phpish
15:18 Tekk_ cool
15:19 Tekk_ https://github.com/edumentab/rakudo-and-nqp-internals-course this?
15:19 timotimo yes
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15:25 raiph Tekk_: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-10-20#i_9536912
15:31 Tekk_ raiph: hm?
15:31 Tekk_ oh
15:32 Tekk_ a python implementation on moar :P
15:32 timotimo ah, yeah
15:32 timotimo but it does almost nothing
15:32 timotimo it can if and else, but not elif
15:32 timotimo :P
15:33 Tekk_ oh good
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15:33 colomon arnsholt++
15:33 Tekk_ can it chain else and if?
15:33 Tekk_ that's one of those really small things in languages that annoys me
15:33 FROGGS probably not
15:34 FROGGS or... perhaps it can...
15:35 FROGGS should Just Work™, depending on how it is implemented
15:35 FROGGS bbiab
15:38 Tekk_ hmm
15:39 Tekk_ can someone pull the latest nqp and see if it builds with just moar? I'm getting an error in make. http://pastebin.com/DErszT4d
15:39 Tekk_ moar build via rakudobrew yesterday or the day before, nqp pulled right now
15:40 Tekk_ my arguments to Configure.pl were --backends=moar --prefix=$home/.rakudobrew
15:43 PerlJam Tekk_: you didn't also --gen-moar ?
15:43 moritz Tekk_:  seems $home didn't get expanded
15:43 moritz Tekk_: did you mean $HOME?
15:44 Tekk_ moritz: yeah
15:44 Tekk_ and I didn't use --gen-moar
15:44 Tekk_ I thought htat it would just use the installed one
15:44 Tekk_ that*
15:45 * Tekk_ is trying with --gen-moar now
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15:58 dalek snake: af5f6f7 | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | / (3 files):
15:58 dalek snake: Implement elif.
15:58 dalek snake: review: https://github.com/arnsholt/snake/commit/af5f6f7b5c
15:58 arnsholt timotimo: It actually knows how to elif too
15:58 arnsholt I'd just forgotten to push the commit, due to intermittent internet
15:58 arnsholt =D
15:59 arnsholt Now I need to implement variables though, which is another slightly annoying part of Python
15:59 geekosaur "slightly"
16:00 arnsholt Yeah
16:04 timotimo %)
16:04 arnsholt I'll probably fib some of the more annoying bits initially
16:05 arnsholt Like def actually being a covert *assignment* operation
16:05 census joined #perl6
16:08 arnsholt Thankfully I can probably steal jnthn++'s Rubyish variable stuff from the RaNIW slides
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16:23 Tekk_ anyone know of a decent emacs mode for nqp?
16:23 Tekk_ perl-mode kinda works, but it kinda breaks when you start writing a language using it and need stuff like ["]
16:23 Tekk_ since it then considers the entire file after to be in quotes
16:32 treehug88 joined #perl6
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16:36 * leont wonders what ["] would mean, given " is not an infix operator…
16:37 * TimToady suspects regexen
16:37 Tekk_ yeah
16:37 Tekk_ it's a character class
16:38 TimToady you could double it in p5 to suppress that, but in p6 you'd get a warning from <[""]>
16:38 TimToady m: /<[""]>/
16:38 * TimToady predicts the "timeout" warning :)
16:38 camelia rakudo-moar 8102da: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
16:38 Tekk_ TimToady: nah, just seems that nqp-m just says it's unexpected but still works :)
16:39 * Tekk_ moves on to looking at rubyish-2.nqp
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16:49 smls TimToady, can you give me a quick primer on "read-only"-ness?
16:49 smls In this case it looks like "read-only" is an attribute of a Scalar container:
16:49 smls my @a := $(1, 2), 3; say @a[0] = 10;
16:50 smls In this case, it looks like it's a property of a variable, since both $x and $y refer to the same Scalar container (correct?) but only one of them is allowed to assign to it:
16:50 smls sub foo ($y) { $y++ }; my $x = 2; foo($x);
16:50 smls Both examples die with "Cannot assign to a readonly variable or a value" btw
16:50 smls So do I understand it correctly that "read-only" exists both as a flag on Scalar objects, and as a flag on lexpad entries?
16:50 smls Or am I thinking about it all wrong?
16:52 timotimo try using .DUMP on things?
16:53 ezra1 joined #perl6
16:53 smls doesn't seem to tell me much
16:53 * jnthn waves tiredly from Melbourne airport
16:54 ezra1 is there any documentation beyond jnthns presentation about perl6 jvm interop?
16:54 jnthn ezra1: Not really :/
16:54 jnthn Uh, that I know of...
16:54 * jnthn isn't all knowing :)
16:54 ezra1 examples?
16:54 ezra1 maybe?
16:55 ezra1 me either :)
16:55 jnthn smls: Typically the structure is lexpad -> Scalar -> value
16:56 jnthn A Scalar is something you can assign into if it's rw flag is set
16:56 jnthn But another way to end up with readonlyness is
16:56 jnthn lexpad -> value
16:57 jnthn This is how it works in all cases really
16:57 ezra1 ok thats helpful
16:57 ezra1 giving it a go.  trying to do a libgdx example
16:57 ezra1 if im successful ill put it up for others
16:58 camelia joined #perl6
16:58 smls jnthn: How about the case of subroutine paramter aliasing (2nd example I gave above)?
16:58 jnthn ezra1: That'd be great. Also, while I forget exactly how it's done, there is a way to take a JVM class and get all the signatures you could possibly use
16:59 smls Doesn't the variable inside the routine refer to the same Scalar as the variable at the callsite?
16:59 jnthn smls: That either ends up being lexpad -> value or lexpad -> Scalar' -> value. We do the first when we can get away with it.
16:59 dwarring joined #perl6
16:59 jnthn No, you only get that if you write "is rw"
17:00 jnthn Or use the \foo syntax
17:00 dalek evalbot: dc7fb70 | moritz++ | README:
17:00 dalek evalbot: update README
17:00 dalek evalbot: review: https://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/dc7fb70499
17:00 dalek evalbot: b9ab238 | moritz++ | lib/EvalbotExecuter.pm:
17:00 dalek evalbot: bump time limits
17:00 dalek evalbot:
17:00 dalek evalbot: yes, speeding up the host would be nicer; I know
17:00 dalek evalbot: review: https://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/b9ab2383f6
17:00 jnthn Both of which retain the original thing so it can be assigned within the routine
17:01 camelia joined #perl6
17:01 smls So, a new Scalar (without "rw" set) is created when calling the function?
17:01 jnthn Yes, if needed. (more)
17:02 jnthn These days we mostly just decontainerize the incoming value and put that in the lexpad, so avoid creating a new Scalar. BUT Scalar also plays the role of a "this doesn't flatten" indicator.
17:02 jnthn So if we get someting in that would flatten, we still need the Scalar
17:03 jnthn Either way provides the "can't assign" semantics we need.
17:04 jnthn And the cheaper one is the better one, naturally. :)
17:04 jnthn The only way I know of to actually spot that the optimization happens if with using uppercase thingies to go introspecting...
17:06 smls Is that behavior (creating a new non-rw-Scalar if needed) specced and conceptually part of the language, or is it just an implementation detail and it's ok to think of the whole thing in a more high-level sense as "read-only alias"?
17:06 smls ( asking for http://imgur.com/a/An3k4 )
17:07 jnthn Well, the alias language to me has always been more about contrasting it with the more copy-ish semantics in Perl 5.
17:08 jnthn The exactly thing Rakudo does isn't spec'd.
17:08 jnthn But I think it's an acceptable optimization.
17:11 smls ok, thanks
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17:17 TimToady well, actually, P5 is purely ref semantics at the @_ level, it's the my ($a,$b,@c) = @_ that typically does the copy
17:18 TimToady the spec language is such that if you can prove that nothing is trying to modify the ref arg or use its item nature, it doesn't need to be itemized
17:19 TimToady but it also allows pass by value
17:19 TimToady so if you already have something that is a value, and bind to normal parameter, it can just pass it "raw"
17:20 vendethiel- ezra1: that's all there is (jnthn's slides)
17:20 vendethiel- there's a *VERY* short article somewhere, but that's about it
17:21 TimToady moritz: how hard would it be to set up a temporary camelia on the 6-core in my house?
17:21 vendethiel- arnsholt: ooh, you're back on snake :D?
17:21 smls with "something that is a value" do you mean just things like Int and Str object that are known to be immutable value types?
17:21 ugator joined #perl6
17:21 smls or objects of custom types as well?
17:22 ptc_p6 joined #perl6
17:22 TimToady I'm not sure how it introspects that currently, but the intent is to treat user-defined value types as value types, in addition to the builtins
17:23 TimToady functionally, a value type as a WHICH that doesn't depend on its locatoin
17:23 TimToady *has
17:23 PerlJam .oO( why don't we have several machines backing camelia yet? )
17:23 vendethiel- concurrent camelias
17:23 TimToady but that's an operational definition, not a reflective one
17:24 pyrimidine joined #perl6
17:27 jnthn TimToady: At the moment it actually looks at the nominal type constraint.
17:28 timotimo jnthn, TimToady, a word on the role Callable with a signature as its arguments?
17:28 timotimo it kind of seems like Sub, Block and friends should do that role, eh?
17:28 TimToady someday
17:28 jnthn TimToady: And if it's it !~~ Iterable and it !~~ Parcel, and Iterable !~~ it and Parcel !~~ it, then it figures a flattening thing could never be bound there.
17:29 jnthn (Note it's a compile time check.)
17:31 dalek perl6-roast-data: f9b458a | coke++ | / (5 files):
17:31 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
17:31 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/f9b458ab03
17:32 jnthn timotimo: Probably possible, I just wonder how easy/cheap the check can be.
17:32 jnthn timotimo: The sub-typing relation probably gets fun. It may just fall out of what we already have, though...
17:33 jnthn The whole parametric stuff is getting a good going over when I get back from vacation, though.
17:33 jnthn So we can get rid of a load of those "Expected Array[Int] but got Array[Int]" WTFs.
17:34 jnthn And cache mixins.
17:34 timotimo that sounds good :)
17:34 jnthn And have the two work out properly with serialization stuff, which means some kind of interning.
17:34 jnthn I have a design sketched out.
17:35 timotimo how do you feel about the two goals on moarvm.org's roadmap?
17:35 timotimo better optimization around closures and the stability improvements for threads/async
17:35 jnthn The GLR might be helped by #1.
17:35 jnthn #2 is really needed.
17:36 jnthn Won't have much for this release :(
17:36 jnthn The roadmap really needs an update though
17:36 jnthn So it can be focused on the moar aspects of things we need for 6.0.0
17:36 jnthn So, NSA, GLR, and NFG.
17:37 jnthn And I think the N bit of NSA is going to come before NFG at this point.
17:37 leont Yeah, "Expected Array[Int] but got Array[Int]" hit me too at some point
17:38 leont (well, its brother at least)
17:38 Mso150_z joined #perl6
17:38 jnthn Yeah. It wants fixing.
17:39 jnthn I managed to get a design that lets me solve 5 or so differnet problems with a single mechanism.
17:39 leont To the point where I gave up making that type parametric and rewriting that part of my framework
17:39 leont Sounds good
17:39 jnthn Think it should cover us for some aspects of coercion types too.
17:40 leont Yes please!
17:40 jnthn Anyway, that's what I hope to be working on post-vacation...
17:41 leont I like typed programming, but I keep running into various issues there :-/
17:42 jnthn Yeah...well, some of them are real bugs (like the bogus error), and then some are mis-placed at the boundary of typed and untyped code.
17:42 jnthn *mis-placed exceptations
17:43 jnthn e.g. thinking that sub foo(Int @a) { }; foo([1, 2, 3]) is going to work out because it's an Array that happens to contain Int
17:43 leont I'd like some way to make that work
17:43 jnthn At best, you'll get some sugar.
17:43 leont e.g. some kind of coercion
17:43 jnthn (For Array[Int].new(1, 2, 3))
17:44 jnthn But yeah, it'll have to be a coercion, which means copying, which means it should be weighty enough to not look like it's "free"
17:45 [Coke] LHF: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/blob/master/log/rakudo.jvm_summary.out#L1726 - this test is failing because it assumes the suggestions are in a particular order when they are not.
17:47 smls jnthn: Maybe a general mechanism for saying "Do not apply this type check to the input directly; instead, try to coerce the input to the required type and only throw an exception if that fails"
17:47 ptc_p61 joined #perl6
17:48 jnthn The reason it actually has to be an Array[Int], to be clear, is because a [...] thingy is mutable, and so even if you did go looking at "what does it contain" at the point of a type check, then proceed onwards assuming that's what you really have (or the optimizer assumes), something could at-a-distance add a thingy of a different type into the array.
17:48 jnthn smls: Yeah, I wonder if sub foo(Int() @a) { ... } can be made to work.
17:49 jnthn But it'll have to be special-cased, I think...
17:49 jnthn To imply "is copy" I guess...
17:50 leont Couldn't «Int @a is copy» be enough?
17:50 jnthn Hm
17:50 jnthn Well, it'd mean something else I guess...
17:50 jnthn (as in, actually check the values)
17:51 jnthn And somehow we'd have to make it suppress the check on what is coming in.
17:51 jnthn Which feels a little off. But it's 5am here so I probably shouldn't be trying to design type stuff. :)
17:51 smls «To imply "is copy" I guess...» - or simply fail at compile time if it is used without "is copy", requiring the user to be explicit (and making sure they know what they're doing)
17:52 jnthn smls: That'd be more conservative, yes
17:52 rurban joined #perl6
17:53 leont «without "is copy"» is a bit harsh, but demanding some kind of "is ro/rw/copy" might work
17:53 jnthn *nod*
17:54 jnthn It still means a sort of special case though
17:55 jnthn I mean, it's more that you want to convey Array[Int]() rathe rthan Array[Int()]
17:55 jnthn But it's not too easy to know where to dangle the () when writing it as Int @arr
17:56 jnthn And Int @arr() already means something. :)
17:57 timotimo @arr is Array[Int(Any)]?
17:57 jnthn timotimo: That does it, yes
17:57 Mso150_z_z joined #perl6
17:58 jnthn timotimo: Though not so prettily I guess ;)
17:58 jnthn Note that Int @foo is really Positional[Int] rather than Array[Int] too.
17:59 jnthn Grr. Still an hour until my flight is boarding.
18:05 Mso150 joined #perl6
18:05 timotimo :\
18:05 dalek roast: 82d502c | usev6++ | S04-statement-modifiers/for.t:
18:05 dalek roast: Add test for RT #118769
18:05 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/82d502c355
18:05 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=118769
18:08 danaj_ joined #perl6
18:08 * jnthn added some stuff to http://act.useperl.at/apw2014/wiki?node=HackathonAchievments
18:08 jnthn I've got a feeling I did more
18:08 jnthn But that's the ones I can remember :)
18:08 timotimo you inspired people :)
18:10 moritz m: say 'timeout?'
18:11 camelia rakudo-moar 8102da: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
18:12 [Sno] joined #perl6
18:13 pyrimidine joined #perl6
18:15 masak m: say "\c[INTERNATIONAL SIGN OF TIMEOUT]"
18:15 camelia rakudo-moar 8102da: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
18:16 masak m: say time ** out
18:16 camelia rakudo-moar 8102da: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
18:16 masak m: say ")tuoemit(".backwards
18:17 moritz meh, adding a new tmux window and starting the bash therein takes ~10s
18:17 camelia rakudo-moar 8102da: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
18:17 moritz nine_: did you say you have linux box lying around that we could use?
18:17 moritz nine_: I'd have a very good use case righ now :-)
18:17 nine_ moritz: indeed
18:18 nine_ moritz: and unbelievably epic timing. Right now was the first time that I looked at my IRC client in two days
18:18 ivanshmakov joined #perl6
18:18 PerlJam moritz: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-10-22#i_9549312
18:19 jnthn moritz: I think TimToady mentioned he had some compute resources that could go on camelia earlier too?
18:19 PerlJam aye, that's what I linked to
18:19 jnthn ah, k
18:20 dalek roast: 489ebb2 | usev6++ | S04-phasers/begin.t:
18:20 dalek roast: Add test for RT #119749
18:20 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/489ebb2e46
18:20 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=119749
18:20 PerlJam moritz: see also http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-10-22#i_9549330   :-)
18:24 masak today I thought: what if quasiquoting looked less like this: `quasi { 2 + {{{$val}}} }` and more like this: `QQ" 2 + $val "` ?
18:24 moritz I don't care who provides the computer
18:25 moritz I just want to run camelia somewhere where it doesn't time out
18:25 masak still just a thought. syntax just an approximation.
18:25 moritz and it's not too much effort (1h to get the most important stuff running)
18:25 masak moritz++ # thanks for doing this
18:31 brrt joined #perl6
18:33 masak (that is, the important part of the above syntax is that variables are quasi-spliced by default. if you wanted to avoid that (and just represent a regular variable in the code), you'd have to `\$val`)
18:34 vendethiel- masak: I feel a bit... uneasy about current "scoping" things, btw
18:35 vendethiel- like, macro { $a = 1; quasi { say $a } }; #kind of surprised it works
18:35 masak vendethiel-: you are? why?
18:35 vendethiel- I'd expect something non-unquoted to be "from outside"
18:37 virtualsue joined #perl6
18:38 masak if I get what you're saying, you're suggesting a kind of non-hygiene.
18:38 * jnthn thought hygiene by default was a Good Thing :)
18:39 FROGGS_ joined #perl6
18:39 * masak too
18:39 vendethiel- erm, not really
18:39 masak then, explain yourself ;)
18:39 vendethiel- I'm suggesting I should have to unquote stuff from outside the quasi
18:39 vendethiel- *even if they're not parameters*
18:39 vendethiel- yes, just leave me some time to write it down :P
18:39 * masak breathes down the neck of vendethiel- :P
18:40 masak whether something is a parmeter or not is kinda beside the point. you can unquote any AST object, no matter where it came from.
18:41 * jnthn notes that his only real use of macros in a module relied on the current semantics ;)
18:41 masak yeah, I'm not convinced at all.
18:42 masak the current semantics feels like one of the conceptually solid points of the macro implementation.
18:42 vendethiel- ..it did not
18:42 vendethiel- I'm just suggesting you need
18:42 vendethiel- my $a = 1; quasi { say {{{$a}}} };
18:42 jnthn In general, lexical scoping (and its visual nature) have served us quite well already
18:43 vendethiel- ... I'm not arguing against it. Or against hygiene
18:43 jnthn vendethiel-: But 1 is a literal Int, not an AST, so no need to AST inrepolate it.
18:43 vendethiel- moving a parameter to a local shouldn't have you change the use
18:43 masak vendethiel-: that... looks so wrong to me.
18:43 masak vendethiel-: are you *sure* you're not misunderstanding how macros currently work?
18:43 vendethiel- I am
18:43 masak I am strongly suggesting you should be less sure ;)
18:44 jnthn :P
18:44 jnthn OK, time to ponder moving gate-wards, methinks...
18:44 jnthn o/
18:44 masak \o
18:44 colomon o/
18:45 vendethiel- I know how macros work.
18:45 masak yes, you do.
18:45 vendethiel- this is not about implementation details, more about semantics
18:46 vendethiel- macros have "level". I can (or should be able to, I guess) have macro generating macros, etc. Not choosing at which level it's "unquoted" makes me very uneasy
18:46 masak vendethiel-: here's the invariant your proposal is breaking: whenever we do {{{$x}}}, then $x ~~ AST
18:46 masak vendethiel-: 1 !~~ AST
18:47 vendethiel- I know that
18:47 masak you still haven't really motivated to me how that isn't a problem with your proposal...
18:47 masak or if you did, it went by me.
18:47 vendethiel- because I'm not talking about technical "details" here
18:47 vendethiel- I'm just talking about consistency
18:47 vendethiel- if I have, say...
18:48 vendethiel- macro foo($bar) { my $a = 1; quasi { macro somename { quasi { say {{{$bar}}} + $a; } } } }
18:48 vendethiel- this feels terribly wrong.
18:48 masak *not to me*.
18:49 masak what you're proposing feels terribly wrong.
18:49 masak seems we're at an impasse, though, where neither of us can manage to explain our viewpoint to the other...
18:49 mauke how do I interpolate a value of type AST under the new proposal?
18:49 vendethiel- masak: I can manage to explain my viewpoint...
18:50 vendethiel- It's just that I'm taking next to *every single macro system in existence* and trying to get the same... consistency
18:50 vendethiel- well, we're probably the only ones with that kind of "AST nodes" thingies
18:51 moritz huh?
18:51 vendethiel- huh?
18:51 moritz in lisp, the AST nodes are simply lists
18:51 vendethiel- .. which also applies to variables assigned
18:51 vendethiel- not here
18:51 treehug88 joined #perl6
18:51 moritz so we're hardly the only ones
18:52 masak we're definitely not the only ones.
18:52 vendethiel- changing `macro ($foo) { }` to `macro { my $foo; }` makes you change every single appearance of $foo in the quasi
18:52 masak though I do confess I haven't found two macro systems yet that work exactly alike.
18:52 masak vendethiel-: no, you're missing the point.
18:53 masak vendethiel-: you don't have to change anything if `my $foo` contains an AST.
18:53 vendethiel- right.
18:53 gfldex joined #perl6
18:53 moritz the problem is just that currently, ASTs only come from parameters
18:53 moritz we need to change that
18:53 vendethiel- yes.
18:53 timotimo yes please
18:53 vendethiel- I'd be very happy with some kind of quoting, actually
18:53 masak vendethiel-: if that's *not* the case, then whatever you're doing with that refactor that makes something not be an AST, you must be *very* confused.
18:54 vendethiel- so I can do like, my $a = }}}1{{{;
18:54 vendethiel- *g* # syntaxes++
18:54 * masak .oO( because {{{ }}} wasn't horrible enough... )
18:55 vendethiel- *g*²
18:55 masak re "ASTs only come from parameters" -- wrong.
18:55 masak they also come from quasis.
18:55 timotimo masak: don't forget to never make it impossible to have higher order macros!
18:55 vendethiel- m: macro { my $a = quasi { 1 } }
18:55 vendethiel- nonono what? what timo?
18:56 vendethiel- .oO( there's a bug in my timo )
18:56 dalek roast: 49ce219 | (David Warring david.warring@gmail.com)++ | integration/advent2010-day08.t:
18:56 dalek roast: added test descriptions and another "flip" test
18:56 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/49ce219ded
18:56 camelia rakudo-moar 8102da: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
18:57 vendethiel- macros generating macros are great =(
18:57 masak vendethiel-: timotimo was asking for that to stay possible.
18:57 mauke ... is anything arguing against that?
18:57 mauke er
18:57 mauke anyone*
18:57 vendethiel- masak: ooh, never make it impossible
18:57 vendethiel- >_>
18:57 masak vendethiel-: are you having a reading comprehension problem tonight? :P
18:57 masak just curious.
18:58 vendethiel- ... I might be doing something else taking all my brain.
18:58 [Tux] joined #perl6
18:58 vendethiel- Right. "never make it impossible" is a weird way to say it, though.
18:59 vendethiel- okay, booting up my laptop.
18:59 pyrimidine joined #perl6
19:00 timotimo well
19:00 timotimo masak is going to change a lot of stuff, probably
19:00 timotimo i wanted him to keep in mind that maybe, just maybe, you want to nest quasis and unquotes :P
19:01 moritz well, composability is a big concern for Perl 6 in general
19:01 moritz so it would be very weird if macros didn't compose/nest
19:02 Ven joined #perl6
19:02 vendethiel- mmh.
19:02 masak rest assured that I am aiming for a macros design that will force-multiply well with other Perl 6 features, including macros and quasis.
19:02 Ven trying my stuff now...
19:03 vendethiel- ooh. it works
19:04 * masak looks at both Ven and vendethiel-
19:04 masak whoa.
19:04 vendethiel- hello!
19:04 Ven hello!
19:04 masak o.O
19:04 vendethiel- he's quite surprised...
19:04 Ven I didn't realize I could store quasi{} result in variables
19:04 vendethiel- It's very useful
19:05 masak of course you can; they're just first-class values.
19:05 Ven I can actually do more than I first expected with the current macros...
19:05 vendethiel- I guess I only need introspections of AST nodes now...
19:05 masak won't get that until we get Qtrees.
19:05 Mso150_c joined #perl6
19:06 Ven I still feel very strange about the fact that I can use a variable "just like that", but I guess I should find it nice and use it...
19:06 vendethiel- right, of course.
19:06 mauke macro foo() { my $x = quasi { 42 }; quasi { $x } }  # is this code?
19:06 masak you should find it nice and use it.
19:06 vendethiel- .oO( where is vende )
19:06 vendethiel- mauke: won't work - you're not unquoting $x
19:06 timotimo hmm
19:07 mauke I expect uses of foo to create AST values
19:07 masak mauke: a use of `foo()` simplifies down to `quasi { 42 }`
19:07 timotimo now that we have async sockets and multithreading, maybe hoelzro will work on xmpp again
19:07 mauke masak: good
19:07 masak mauke: you can do that in a normal sub!
19:07 masak no need for a macro.
19:07 mauke sure
19:07 masak sub foo() { quasi { 42 } }
19:07 mauke but I want to make sure my understanding is correct
19:07 vendethiel- m: sub foo { quasi { 42 } }; macro x { my $ast = foo; quasi { say {{{$ast}}} } }; x;
19:07 vendethiel- it woorks :o)
19:08 camelia rakudo-moar 8102da: OUTPUT«42␤»
19:08 masak yep.
19:08 * Ven jumps around happily
19:08 masak I'm mainly surprised this is news
19:08 masak Ven: can I take your suggestion above as moot now? please? :)
19:08 vendethiel- I'm used to late-binding languages :)
19:08 timotimo m: say "i'm aliiiivveeeee"
19:08 vendethiel- yes. I'll still find it weird everytime someone does that, but i guess yes.
19:08 moritz timotimo: don't stretch it :-)
19:09 vendethiel- I'll need to think more about nested macros though
19:09 camelia rakudo-moar 8102da: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
19:09 timotimo ;(
19:09 masak vendethiel-: please do.
19:09 mauke_ joined #perl6
19:13 vendethiel- masak: does it currently work?
19:13 dalek roast: 238cd55 | (David Warring david.warring@gmail.com)++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
19:13 dalek roast: don't assume ordering of suggestions [Coke]++
19:13 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/238cd55919
19:13 masak vendethiel-: could you be more specific?
19:14 vendethiel- may the odds be in my favour...
19:14 vendethiel- m: macro foo { quasi { macro x { quasi {say 1 } } } }; say x # strict checking?
19:14 camelia rakudo-moar 8102da: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
19:15 vendethiel- m: macro foo { quasi { macro x { quasi {say 1 } } } }; say x # strict checking?
19:15 vendethiel- camelia, I'm trusting you with this!
19:15 camelia rakudo-moar 8102da: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
19:16 vendethiel- well.
19:16 masak vendethiel-: `x` is not in scope in the mainline.
19:16 moritz psycho tricks don't work on bots :-)
19:16 masak so no, that doesn't work.
19:16 vendethiel- masak: yah, strict checking :(.
19:16 moritz checking? just scoping
19:16 masak I have no idea what you mean by "strict checking".
19:17 masak it's just lexical scoping.
19:17 vendethiel- I guess name(/variable) existence needs to be done after macros have been extended
19:17 masak it's hard to discuss things with you when you just keep making up terms like that. :)
19:17 masak you're not even calling `foo`!
19:17 vendethiel- erm, compile-time checking of existing names
19:17 vendethiel- but I guess I need COMPILING to introduce the macro to an outer scope?
19:17 dalek roast: 2ad0fbe | (David Warring david.warring@gmail.com)++ | integration/advent2010-day08.t:
19:17 dalek roast: remove possible hash-key order dependency
19:17 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/2ad0fbe8fc
19:17 hoelzro timotimo: after that deserialization bug is fixed, maybe
19:17 masak vendethiel-: you're not even calling `foo`!!!
19:18 vendethiel- I know. I've read you :P. You're suggesting it's gonna fail either way because the x macro is lexically-scoped under foo
19:18 masak vendethiel-: how could that possibly work, even in a world without "strict checking"?
19:18 masak yes, I am suggesting that.
19:19 vendethiel- so even if I called foo, it wouldn't work
19:19 masak no, not without something like COMPILING
19:20 moritz $ perl -wE 'sub foo { sub bar { 42 } }; say bar'
19:20 moritz 42
19:20 moritz that's how it could possibly work :-)
19:20 moritz just with s/sub/macro/
19:20 vendethiel- :P
19:20 * masak avoids thinking of what the macro equivalent of that would do
19:20 moritz not saying that it should, mind you
19:20 vendethiel- m: our macro masak {}
19:20 moritz our-socped macros!
19:20 moritz uhm
19:21 camelia rakudo-moar 8102da: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤First child of a 'bind' op must be a QAST::Var␤»
19:21 mauke sub foo { ... } == BEGIN { *foo = sub { ... }; }
19:21 moritz are packge variables consulted at compile time?
19:21 vendethiel- camelia: ??
19:21 moritz if no, our-scoped macros can be forbidden outright
19:21 moritz vendethiel-: you asked, she answered
19:22 vendethiel- I'm surprised she did.
19:22 vendethiel- "I chose to have these authors write JavaScript because it's the coding language that most resembles natural language."
19:22 vendethiel- ugh.
19:22 vendethiel- I'm gonna need a shower now... brb
19:28 masak if by "natural language" you mean cussing, babbling, and saying "this" a lot.
19:28 mauke f(this);
19:29 tony-o javascript is far and away the least natural sounding language
19:29 tony-o of the ones that aren't intentionally obscure
19:29 moritz "this."
19:30 moritz though I disagree
19:30 tony-o javascript, where 'this' can be literally anything
19:30 moritz 'defun' sounds a lot less naturally to me than 'function'
19:32 tony-o you can pick things out where it works, sure, it's not something i'd consider natural language though
19:33 mauke http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Perl#.22Black_Perl.22
19:34 brrt moritz: what about define?
19:34 * brrt has always had a weak spot for scheme
19:36 tony-o i love js and perl - i just don't think js resembles natural language
19:36 geekosaur depends. if your qualification is "idiosyncratic"...
19:37 pyrimidine joined #perl6
19:37 tony-o geekosaur: lol
19:39 masak 'night, #perl6
19:40 brrt sleep well masak
19:41 SamuraiJack joined #perl6
19:41 dalek roast: 03f5fc7 | (David Warring david.warring@gmail.com)++ | S05-mass/charsets.t:
19:41 dalek roast: refudged parrot blank chars - still failing, e.g.:
19:41 dalek roast: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/blob/f9b458ab03bc5dbbeda79b198562024f897a75c9/log/rakudo.parrot_summary.out#L2653
19:41 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/03f5fc743e
19:43 dalek Perlito: b7a305d | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (2 files):
19:43 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - js - split() with LIMIT
19:43 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/commit/b7a305df7d
19:44 moritz perl ./viv --boot --noperl6lib --compile-setting CORE.setting
19:44 moritz Unknown warnings category 'experimental' at /home/camelia/std/boot/Cursor.pm line 31.
19:45 moritz this is with perl 5.16
19:45 mauke too old
19:47 moritz seems like
19:47 * moritz perlbrews a newer one
19:47 nine_ simply removing the 'no warnings "experimental"' would fix it on 5.16
19:47 nine_ but of course lead to warnings on 5.18
19:48 mauke that's what 'use experimental' is for
19:53 raiph joined #perl6
19:55 Ven joined #perl6
19:56 Ven masak: really, the only thing bugging me is that, in lisp, this:
19:57 Ven "let ((a 1)) `(a ,a))" gives me "(A 1)" (in CL)
19:58 Ven and "(let ((a '(1 2))) `(a ,a))" gives "(A (1 2))". You don't have to use a different syntax or anything because it's from a let.
19:58 Ven But of course, our non-homoiconicity bites us.
19:59 Ven (elixir mostly gets away with not being homoiconic by having a very "simple" ast format
20:00 mauke my $a = 1; eval "a($a)"
20:01 pyrimidine joined #perl6
20:01 Ven mauke: it's EVAL :P
20:01 Ven ..and the day you'll see me using it has not come yet.
20:02 mauke it's homoiconic! see, code is made of strings and strings are also a data structure
20:02 Ven Strings are probably the worst kind of data structure :)
20:02 Ven along with integers and booleans
20:02 mauke ok, so in lisp 1 == quasi { 1 }
20:03 Ven erm... ... yes and no?
20:04 mauke that's how lisp gets away with only having {{{ }}}
20:04 Ven i.e., `(,'1) is just (1)
20:05 Ven but if you try to do `(,(1 2)) instead of `(,'(1 2))  you're gonne be in trouble :P
20:07 dalek roast: 32699ba | (David Warring david.warring@gmail.com)++ | S05-mass/charsets.t:
20:07 dalek roast: removed debugging
20:07 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/32699ba5f9
20:07 brrt when's the next big conference, by the way?
20:07 Ven okay, I should go ahead and write some code...
20:07 brrt FOSDEM?
20:08 * moritz has a working niecza again
20:09 brrt \o/
20:11 colomon moritz++
20:12 timotimo cool
20:14 moritz STD and rakudo compiling
20:16 timotimo i'm liking the sound of that
20:17 moritz STD done.
20:20 Ven okay, writing some tests for Text::Nephrite
20:22 camelia joined #perl6
20:23 moritz m: say 'test test test'
20:24 camelia rakudo-moar : OUTPUT«Can't exec "./rakudo-inst/bin/perl6-m": No such file or directory at lib/EvalbotExecuter.pm line 185.␤exec (./rakudo-inst/bin/perl6-m --setting=RESTRICTED /tmp/UV16dR5bCu) failed: No such file or directory␤Lost connection to server irc.freenode.org.␤»
20:24 moritz n: say 42
20:24 camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«Rebuild in progress␤»
20:24 moritz n: say 42
20:24 camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«Rebuild in progress␤»
20:25 Ven TUUUT... TUUUT... TUUT :P
20:25 * brrt afk
20:26 azawawi joined #perl6
20:26 moritz std: say 42
20:26 azawawi hi #perl6
20:26 yoleaux 20 Oct 2014 15:40Z <timotimo> azawawi: i can run farabi6 when i clone it manually and run bin/farabi6
20:26 yoleaux 20 Oct 2014 15:59Z <timotimo> azawawi: i'm not really doing anything with farabi6, but it maxes out a single cpu on my machine :\
20:26 camelia std 14ad63b: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 136m␤»
20:26 * azawawi waves
20:26 Ven \o
20:27 * azawawi found a 100% cpu usage scenario for a Perl 6 script :)
20:30 [Coke] moritz: is it running on mono 3?
20:30 dalek roast: 698a635 | usev6++ | / (3 files):
20:30 dalek roast: Add test for RT #76606
20:30 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/698a635b43
20:30 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=76606
20:31 [Coke] guess not, as I see no new commits on niecza.
20:31 rurban joined #perl6
20:31 moritz [Coke]: nope; just a new box to play with
20:32 mauke joined #perl6
20:32 mauke joined #perl6
20:32 dalek evalbot: a857d10 | moritz++ | lib/EvalbotExecuter.pm:
20:32 dalek evalbot: Disable locking for now
20:32 dalek evalbot: review: https://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/a857d10322
20:32 camelia joined #perl6
20:32 azawawi http://paste.debian.net/128194/  # 100% CPU usage due to trying to trap Ctrl-C on rakudo moar
20:33 azawawi timotimo++
20:34 moritz std: 1
20:34 camelia std 14ad63b: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 135m␤»
20:34 moritz n: say 42
20:34 camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«42␤»
20:34 moritz \o/
20:34 moritz perlito: say 42
20:35 azawawi should signal(SIGINT).tap({}) cause such high cpu usage like maxing one core...
20:37 azawawi # signal(SIGINT).tap({ say "Got it" });
20:37 azawawi # 100% cpu usage
20:37 colomon joined #perl6
20:38 * azawawi profiles it
20:39 moritz m: say 42
20:39 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«42␤»
20:40 bartolin moritz++
20:41 camelia joined #perl6
20:41 timotimo my lord ... it's beautiful!
20:41 mauke joined #perl6
20:44 azawawi timotimo: it is the cursed Ctrl-C signal trapping that is causing the 100% cpu usage ...
20:44 azawawi timotimo: and hi :)
20:45 mauke_ joined #perl6
20:45 nine_ moritz: MAKEFLAGS="-j 4" might speed things up a bit
20:47 moritz nine_: ... except in the star build, where it messes things up :-)
20:48 mauke joined #perl6
20:48 moritz anyway, star building now, cron jobs etc. coming tomorrow
20:48 moritz nine_++ # hosting
20:48 moritz sleep&
20:50 timotimo hi azawawi
20:50 timotimo that's annoying ;(
20:50 timotimo nine_++ # machinez
20:52 grettis joined #perl6
20:54 colomon nine_: hosting?
20:59 azawawi so basically a --profile of a signal tap is practically useless
20:59 azawawi is that done in libuv?
21:00 mauke_ joined #perl6
21:02 denis_boyun joined #perl6
21:02 * Ven ended up reading about canada news and not writing code
21:02 Ven world :(
21:02 erdic joined #perl6
21:03 dalek joined #perl6
21:04 rindolf joined #perl6
21:04 grettis joined #perl6
21:06 Util joined #perl6
21:06 dalek roast: 8a07d59 | usev6++ | S03-binding/ro.t:
21:06 dalek roast: Add test for RT #65900
21:06 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=65900
21:06 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/8a07d59e32
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21:17 bbkr Just got Segmentation fault while building rakudo on MoarVM under OS X 10.10 Yosemite. Has anyone experienced this?
21:18 bbkr 2014.09 Star
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21:34 tony-o bbkr: i'll give it a shot after work
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21:36 bbkr I've tried rakudobrew and it compiled "This is perl6 version 2014.09-258-g315ec62 built on MoarVM version 2014.09-54-g03ac9a7" fine
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21:45 bbkr tony-o: when you build rakudo moar on OS X can you try to reproduce this - https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=122803 - and see if it crashes randomly? I cannot reproduce it outside OS X.
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21:47 tony-o bbkr: i don't have rakudo brew, i always build from the git repo - is that where you got this?
21:48 bbkr yes, i think rakudo brew just do the same
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21:52 bbkr I mean - SegFault occured when i compiled 2014-09 Star from tarball. I have a feeling that something is broken with concurrency under OS X causing this SF. Thats why I asked you also if you can reproduce RT bug on any recent rakudo.
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