Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-11-02

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:03 raiph m: pir::foo__bar()
00:03 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤To compile on the MoarVM backend, QAST::VM must have an alternative 'moar' or 'moarop'␤»
00:04 raiph m: pir::foo_bar()
00:04 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤pir::foo_bar missing a signature␤»
00:07 raiph sjn: ^^ seems to be from trying to run on moar code with calls to pir: (parrot) ops with __ in the name ?
00:09 raiph s/on moar/(on moar)/
00:10 sjn raiph: yeah, that may be it
00:10 sjn my $client = mysql_init( pir::null__P() );
00:10 sjn is there a way around that?
00:11 psch r: $*VM.config.keys.grep("moar").say
00:11 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«moar␤»
00:11 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 315ec6: OUTPUT«␤»
00:12 psch ISTR there was something about parrot that'd get fixed soonish, but i have no idea if your problem is related
00:13 sjn ok
00:16 psch sjn: although, in the end your problem is a pir op appearing to moar, which actually shouldn't happen
00:17 psch i'd still lean towards "the module doesn't seem well maintained", although i'm not completely sure what you're working with there
00:20 * sjn psch looking at the examples in zavolaj
00:21 raiph sjn: was there a message of the form "Error while compiling op xxx: " just prior to the "To compile on..."?
00:22 sjn raiph: no, this was when actually trying to *run* the mysql example in zavolaj
00:22 sjn under moar
00:23 sjn hm, the postgresql example seems to work
00:24 sjn good enough for me
00:24 raiph k
00:27 dalek perl6-roast-data: 8226dcd | coke++ | / (5 files):
00:27 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
00:27 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/8226dcde28
00:28 [Coke] 3 failures on moar-jit, 97 on moar-nojit, 7 on jvm. parrot is clean
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00:46 timotimo someone get us out of this mess!
00:48 timotimo psch: yeah, unbase is a regular sub call under the hood
00:48 timotimo if we want it to curry into WhateverCode, we'd have to special-case it
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00:53 psch i remember that there was a discussion about auto priming min, but i can't find it anymore
00:53 psch although i supposed "methods and operator-looking-sub auto prime" is a decent guideline
00:54 psch timotimo: i don't particularly want colon-pair unbase to be autoprimed.  Whatever just looked more generally applicable in my mental model
00:55 psch but blocks with placeholders are the general case, and Whatever is sugar for some cases, which i'm ok with
00:55 * psch .oO( although i think that's also not *quite* correct...)
00:55 psch m: my @a = <1 2 3>; @a[{$^a} - 1].say
00:55 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'Numeric'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U \v: *%_)␤  in sub infix:<-> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4476␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/vBMu5s87pl:1␤␤»
00:56 psch m: my @a = <1 2 3>; @a[* - 1].say
00:56 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«3␤»
00:56 * psch shrugs.
00:56 psch m: my @a = <1 2 3>; @a[+@a - 1].say
00:56 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«3␤»
00:56 * psch .oO( superstitious plus )
01:00 vendethiel whoops, time to sleep
01:00 vendethiel g'night, #perl6 :-)
01:01 psch 'night vendethiel
01:05 raiph \o ven
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01:59 * psch sleep &
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03:23 raydiak we need more 6ers in like new zealand and eastern russia to fill this daily lull in my entertainment^W^W#perl6 :)
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04:43 j4janicej raydiak: Will Western Canada work?!
04:43 j4janicej -!
04:43 j4janicej fuck
04:47 raydiak heh why not?
04:48 raydiak j4janicej: puts you in the same time zone as me, if I'm not mistaken
04:48 j4janicej raydiak: you're mistaken but you're real close :)
04:49 j4janicej i'm not a perler, but i wish i was :P
04:49 j4janicej my focus has been on resolving gender identity issues
04:50 raydiak perl is a good hobby to have
04:50 j4janicej not really
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08:00 moritz \o
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08:42 vendethiel .u doughnut
08:42 yoleaux U+1F369 DOUGHNUT [So] (🍩)
08:42 vendethiel ...
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10:46 masak vendethiel: I feel like there's something awesome I'm not quite getting about the metacircularity I just implemented.
10:47 masak vendethiel: it's like, ok, now I have the interpreter implemented using only a few primitives that the interpreter defines. I get that part. in a sense, it's beautiful, and... economical.
10:47 masak vendethiel: but I'm not getting the religious experience conveyed in http://weblog.raganwald.com/2006/11/significance-of-meta-circular_22.html , for example.
10:48 masak "This is the other half of the power of Lisp: if you want to change deeper fundamental language features like whether you have a Lisp-1 or a Lisp-n, or whether all evaluation is lazy, or…, or…, or… you can, because Lisp interprets Lisp and Lisp compiles Lisp."
10:49 masak feels like the only thing I've managed so far is to make my original Perl 6 `eval` run slower, by implementing a Lisp `eval` on top of it ;)
10:50 masak I *suspect*, but cannot prove, that this is because I need to "close the circularity" in more places than I have so far.
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11:02 * masak thinks
11:03 masak basically, any newfound power/flexibility needs to rely on the fact that there's now an `eval` function in the language, which can do dynamic interpretation.
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11:21 vendethiel masak: I'm not the one saying "wow, lisp is easy to implement in lisp" :)
11:21 vendethiel (ftr, that quote put dijkstra away from lisp for a long time :P)
11:21 dalek panda/reporter: 5094916 | (Tobias Leich)++ | bin/panda:
11:21 dalek panda/reporter: implement panda option "smoke"
11:21 dalek panda/reporter: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/509491662a
11:22 vendethiel and, I said it before I think, lisps made some sacrifices to remove some meta-circularity for performance reasons
11:23 vendethiel masak: did you push?
11:36 vendethiel .oO( a meta-circular dougt-nut 🍩 )
11:40 masak vendethiel: I'm just trying to understand the details of the charm of metacircularity.
11:41 vendethiel charm's not my biggest asset :P
11:41 vendethiel masak: why do you like operators being able to be written in perl6
11:41 vendethiel both for the implementor and for the user?
11:42 masak I like two things about that.
11:43 masak (a) I can define an operator, and it's instantly available in my scope. that's me, the user, *extending the language*.
11:43 masak (b) I also think it's way cool that Perl 6 takes seriously the idea that operators are just funnily-spelled subroutines.
11:43 vendethiel for me, I add (c) I like the fact that the *language* uses the same constructs as the *user*
11:44 vendethiel masak: maybe relating those points to metacircularity can help :)
11:44 masak why is (c) a practical benefit, as opposed to a "wow, that's neat" thing?
11:45 masak but yes, I see your point about all this relating to metacircularity.
11:45 masak interestingly, though, Perl 6 (as implemented in Rakudo) isn't metacircular.
11:45 masak NQP is, in the sense that C is. (but not in the sense that Lisp is, I think)
11:45 vendethiel because that means (a) it's not magical and faery thingie (b) it obeys rules I know (c) I'm familiar to and able better comprehend/relate/understand it
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11:46 vendethiel nothing can be crazy, or at least not crazier than what I can do myself
11:46 vendethiel to me, this kind of power means "not much language magic"
11:46 masak got it.
11:47 vendethiel I don't have any answers, btw. I only have pointers. I'm interested in answers as well
11:49 vendethiel python as a language is saner than ruby. In "theory", it's a safer option with less corner cases. But interestingly, ruby's craziness (perlness?) has it with a lot of good APIs (imho)
11:50 vendethiel .oO( it's easy with EVAL )
11:56 masak *nod*
11:56 masak awww. I found a really cute use for an introspective macro in some piece of code I was writing. it would genuinely eliminate boilerplate from my code.
11:57 masak but when I try it, I run into some well-known lexical macro bugs.
11:57 * masak makes a note to try this again later after fixing said bug
11:58 vendethiel ha! :)
11:58 vendethiel (what was it?)
11:59 masak the bug, or the macro?
12:00 vendethiel I think I know the bug
12:00 vendethiel so, the macro
12:00 masak mind if I keep it to myself until I can write it up properly? ;)
12:00 masak it would be so much cooler to show if it actually worked.
12:00 vendethiel alrighty.
12:01 masak even though the introspection it does is textual -- no Qtrees yet.
12:01 vendethiel m: say quasi{1} eqv quasi{1}
12:01 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«False␤»
12:01 vendethiel masak: ^ how do I introspect?
12:02 masak m: macro foo($expr) { say $expr.Str; Nil }; foo "OH HAI"
12:02 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT« "OH HAI"␤»
12:02 masak m: macro foo($expr) { say ~$expr; Nil }; foo "OH HAI"
12:02 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT« "OH HAI"␤»
12:02 vendethiel I guess :-)
12:02 vendethiel it's *not really* what I'm looking for, but close enough
12:02 masak cf "purely textual" above.
12:03 masak I agree it's not optimal :)
12:03 masak but it... opens up certain doors.
12:04 vendethiel the question being...
12:04 vendethiel do you want to open these doors?
12:05 vendethiel .oO( macros are more of an ethical and philophical issue, or so it seems )
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12:08 masak I want to open these doors. in the long run, I want to open them with Qtrees, not with text.
12:08 masak and yes, there is ethics in there. but the same could be said about giving users access to subroutines. very dangerous tech!
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12:17 wollmers .tell timotimo thx for %target.push: %(<a b a b>.pairs).invert; I will use it in my port port of Algorithm::Diff.
12:17 yoleaux 1 Nov 2014 08:59Z <FROGGS_> wollmers: It looks like /:P5\X/ is post NFG... because right now "E\c[COMBINING GRAVE ACCENT]" ~~ /./ only matches 'E'
12:17 chenryn joined #perl6
12:17 yoleaux wollmers: I'll pass your message to timotimo.
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12:23 dalek Perlito: af53198 | (Shlomi Fish)++ | / (3 files):
12:23 dalek Perlito: Made the error messages better.
12:23 dalek Perlito:
12:23 dalek Perlito: Now /usr/bin/node displays the message's text and a backtrace. Thanks to
12:23 dalek Perlito: Havvy from #Node.js on Freenode for some insights.
12:23 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/commit/af5319871b
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13:14 ab5tract hmmm... i baggified (<=) before noticing that (<+) seems to be conceptually exactly the same
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13:15 ab5tract as a baggified (<=), at least as far as i reasoned it
13:18 ab5tract does it make sense to have a separate baggy-specific operator here?
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13:23 ab5tract it almost feels as if it is a holdout from before MMD was implemented?
13:29 timotimo unlikely, we must have had MMD for a very long time
13:29 yoleaux 12:17Z <wollmers> timotimo: thx for %target.push: %(<a b a b>.pairs).invert; I will use it in my port port of Algorithm::Diff.
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13:34 ab5tract timotimo: hmmm.. do you have any thoughts on the overlap? should (<=) be left set only? what about (<)? because there is not a strict Baggy subset operator currently
13:34 timotimo hm, good question
13:35 timotimo i don't have a good intuition on that yet; have mostly been concerning myself with sets rather than bags
13:35 timotimo and then there's Mixes as well
13:35 timotimo are they called mixes still?
13:35 ab5tract haven't heard anything about mixes
13:35 timotimo basically bags with Num values
13:35 timotimo rather than Int
13:36 ab5tract that's a pretty confusing name
13:37 * ab5tract just notices them for the first time on: http://doc.perl6.org/language/Sets_Bags_and_Mixes#class_Mix
13:38 ab5tract here is the only mention in set_operators.pm: sub mix(*@args --> Mix) { Mix.new(@args) }
13:38 timotimo hmm
13:39 ab5tract and i don't see a test file for mixes in S03-operators
13:39 ab5tract whereas set and bag both have files
13:40 timotimo m: say Mix
13:40 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«(Mix)␤»
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13:49 ab5tract m: my $m = mix( %( 1 => 2.3, 2 => 0.7 ) ); my $n = mix( %( 1 => 3.3, 2 => 1.7 ) ); say $m (<+) $n
13:49 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«False␤»
13:49 ab5tract m: my $m = mix( %( 1 => 2.3, 2 => 0.7 ) ); my $n = mix( %( 1 => 3.3, 2 => 1.7 ) ); say $m (<) $n
13:49 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«False␤»
13:49 ab5tract m: my $m = mix( %( 1 => 2.3, 2 => 0.7 ) ); my $n = mix( %( 1 => 3.3, 2 => 1.7 ) ); say $m (<=) $n
13:49 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«False␤»
13:50 ab5tract all of which should return true
13:50 ab5tract at least, in my opinion
13:51 * masak agrees
13:51 timotimo yup
13:52 ab5tract i'm willing to code that in :)
13:53 ab5tract however, i'd argue that (<+) doesn't add anything
13:53 ab5tract if (<=) is meant to DWIM for bags and mixes
13:54 timotimo what is the supposed role of <+?
13:55 ab5tract "Returns True if $a is a Baggy subset of $b, i.e., if all the elements of $a are in $b and each argument of $a is weighed at least as heavily as the element is in $b."
13:55 timotimo huh.
13:55 ab5tract sorry, that is for (>+)
13:56 ab5tract timotimo: hence my suspicion about MMD being missing... otherwise it's existence barely makes sense
13:56 ab5tract maybe masak has a clue?
13:59 masak the only thing I can think of is that they maybe somehow differ in their coercion behavior.
13:59 masak but I struggle to see how that'd matter for comparison ops.
14:00 masak we have something similar going on, for example, between && and ?&
14:00 masak m: say 42 && "OH HAI"
14:00 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
14:00 masak m: say 42 ?& "OH HAI"
14:00 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«True␤»
14:01 masak so (x ?& y) is the same as ?(x && y)
14:01 masak except that I think that ?& also doesn't short-circuit.
14:01 masak m: sub bar { say "no short-circuit!"; True }; say ?(0 && bar)
14:01 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«False␤»
14:01 masak m: sub bar { say "no short-circuit!"; True }; say 0 ?& bar
14:01 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«no short-circuit!␤False␤»
14:01 masak right.
14:02 ab5tract masak: as far as i can tell, there is no coercion in the comparison ops
14:02 masak I could see coercion from Bag to Set being relevant sometimes.
14:03 masak there are some bags one which would be smaller than the other (because different element counts)
14:03 ab5tract erm, sorry. that's not a true statement. we coerce from Any  to Set
14:03 masak but projected down as sets they could be equal (because same elements)
14:03 ab5tract right
14:03 masak actually, the same thing might happen when projecting from mixes to bags
14:04 masak so *if* all the ops would survive, I'd say they'd have to survive based on a difference in coercion like that.
14:04 masak otherwise -- if it can be shown there is no such difference -- then yeah, we probably have too many right now :)
14:04 ab5tract but wouldn't it be better to lift any coercion out of the ops themselves?
14:05 ab5tract so if you want to check the bag as a set with (<), you would call $bag.Set (<) $other.Set
14:05 masak there's an argument can be made for that, yes.
14:05 masak and maybe it should be.
14:05 ab5tract of course Any -> Set coercion would still make sense as a default
14:06 masak if that road is taken, it makes sense for the comparison ops we have left to use as much information in the operands as possible -- that is, always perform the moral equivalent of a mix comparison.
14:06 masak but I hasten to add that the default in Perl tends to be to place the coercion in the operator.
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14:06 ab5tract i'm not sure i see another approach that doesn't involve creating two new ops for bags ( we are missing strict subbag and strict superbag ) and four new ops for mixes
14:06 masak *nod*
14:07 timotimo coercing "Any" as a general rule could only ever result in Bag, not Mix
14:07 timotimo if you have a Hash, though, that could result in a Mix
14:08 ab5tract timotimo: well, currently all Any's coerce to Set for the comparison (excluding for now (<+) in the discussion)
14:08 ab5tract i would put it like this
14:08 ab5tract (Any, Any) -> Set behavior
14:08 ab5tract (Set, Any) -> Set behavior
14:09 ab5tract sorry, that should be (Set, Any) || (Any, Set)
14:09 ab5tract (Bag, Any) || (Any, Bag) -> Bag behavior
14:09 ab5tract etc
14:09 ab5tract that way we still have sensible coercion
14:13 ab5tract within the op itself, without blowing up the number of ops
14:13 ab5tract btw, is it possible that parameter values can be an infinite list?
14:14 ab5tract because coercion for LoLs in a set operator like (^) is also very complicated.. should it only ever coerce based on it's first argument?
14:15 ab5tract [(^)] $a.Set, $b.Bag, $c.Bag     # should that coerce all the bags to sets or the set to bags?
14:15 ab5tract if the list is finite, you could give precedence to bags over sets
14:15 ab5tract but if not...
14:17 ab5tract the whole lazy list thing is new ground for me, so i might not be thinking about it correctly
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14:20 masak it doesn't make sense to me that the coercion happen based on knowledge of all the elements of the list.
14:20 masak it should happen pairwise, for each application of (^)
14:20 masak or not at all
14:21 masak I guess because I consider (^) to be a binary op, not a chaining op. rightly or wrongly.
14:22 ab5tract that makes sense to me
14:23 ab5tract i should have chosen a different op for the example :)
14:27 masak no, it's very interesting that you choose this one.
14:27 masak because I'm kinda changing my mind :)
14:27 ab5tract heh
14:28 masak m: say True ^ True
14:28 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«one(True, True)␤»
14:28 masak m: say ?(True ^ True)
14:28 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«False␤»
14:28 masak m: say ?(True ^ True ^ True)
14:28 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«False␤»
14:28 masak yeah.
14:28 masak m: say True ^^ True
14:28 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
14:28 ab5tract i poked at it before, and then got to this exact question and wasn't able to progress further
14:28 masak m: say True ^^ True ^^ True
14:28 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
14:28 masak ^ and ^^ are clearly chaining in nature.
14:29 masak so maybe for consistency, (^) should be, too.
14:32 ab5tract okay, so the precedence would be: mix > bag > set ?
14:35 masak not sure which way you mean that.
14:35 masak but it would make sense to me if it always used the simplest type it could for the result.
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14:36 ab5tract in terms of precedence: Mix (<) Bag  # coerce Bag to Mix
14:37 ab5tract Set (<) Bag   # coerce Set to Bag
14:39 ab5tract but actually when i am thinking about it, using the simplest if the arguments are not homogeneous also makes sense
14:40 ab5tract and perhaps more so :)
14:42 masak no, I think we mean the same thing.
14:42 masak I meant the simplest it *can*, without losing data.
14:42 ab5tract oh :)
14:42 masak so I agree with your two concrete examples.
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14:45 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | http://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
14:46 ab5tract so then, should i take the approach of adding multi signatures for each combination, or should i take the approach of coercion within a single Any,Any sub based on inspecting the types of the operator?
14:47 ab5tract considering that the logic for computing all of them will look the same, ie: so [&&] $a.keys.map({ $a{$_} > $b{$_} })
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14:48 masak (a) whatever makes the tests pass (b) that looks nice
14:49 ab5tract i was wondering if there were performance implications in either approach
14:49 masak that's not a question that we can/should try to answer without measuring anyway
14:49 masak the JIT is already more clever than we are
14:49 ab5tract hehe
14:50 ab5tract it's a shame, junctions would really make the single sub approach a lot more comfortable
14:54 ab5tract https://gist.github.com/ab5tract/7b8d2a82a2674f4d41be
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15:05 ab5tract masak: i updated the gist with two potential approaches. one is more human intensive, the other i can only imagine is more computer intensive. but maybe there is a cheaper way to approach what i am using th junction + given/when for
15:06 masak have you run either variant against the spectests?
15:06 ab5tract i haven't met spectests yet
15:07 * ab5tract goes for a look
15:09 vendethiel oh, fosdem is in bruxelles?
15:19 masak always in Bruxelles, AFAIK.
15:20 vendethiel I was worried I couldn't be back to france on that because of traveling stuff. But I can do france->bruxelles in like an hour
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15:22 grondilu will there be P6-related stuff in FOSDEM?
15:22 masak yes.
15:22 vendethiel yep
15:36 moritz when implementing a game with several phases (where each phase has different rules), how do I best do that?
15:36 moritz have different rulesets for each phase, and a state machine?
15:36 vendethiel moritz: a state machine of a class Rule?
15:38 moritz vendethiel: currently I tend to think that the state (machine) lives inside the Game, and the Game object has a ruleset for each phase
15:39 moritz and maybe a Ruleset also returns the next phase
15:39 vendethiel you have to make sure you won't lose the game *g*
15:39 vendethiel yes, it makes sense to me as well
15:39 moritz in sovjet russia, the game loses me :-)
15:40 masak states as objects makes sense to me.
15:40 masak all states implementing some common interface.
15:41 vendethiel y u state? :p
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15:53 masak ...because a state machine has states?
15:54 masak if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to think of it as a graph of labeled nodes with purely functional transitions, then you have my blessing. :P
15:56 vendethiel I'm kidding, I'm kidding.
16:08 * masak .oO( it was a referentially transparent joke! )
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16:27 raydiak \o
16:30 vendethiel o
16:30 raydiak omg ven where did your arm go!?
16:31 vendethiel I don't know :(. And damn, it was already painful with only one, but now...
16:32 raydiak haha...working on anything interesting?
16:33 vendethiel nope. php.
16:34 raydiak guess it can't all be fun and games :)
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16:51 * [Coke] tries to fix his daughter's linux laptop and tries not to just throw it in the garbage. :P
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16:58 grondilu [Coke]: which distrib?  (just curious)
17:00 ab5tract does 'make spectest' give benchmark data?
17:01 timotimo "time make spectest" would
17:01 ab5tract ok
17:01 timotimo it'd not be terribly precise, mind you
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17:03 ab5tract i'm just curious how to satisfy my curiousity for which approach is better: http://gist.github.com/ab5tract/7b8d2a82a2674f4d41be
17:04 ab5tract erm, yes, that's me, curious^2
17:04 timotimo i don't think the junction approach will work particularly well :(
17:05 ptc_p6 joined #perl6
17:05 timotimo but i'm first afk
17:05 [Coke] grondilu: ubuntu- the self update to 14.1 froze the machine, now it's unbootable. tryingt o make a usb key to boot from, but that also is unbootable. I can see my kid's home dir if I drop into recovery mode, but have no way to get the stuff off. Will bring it into work tomorrow and see if I can get someone with more experience to help me out.
17:05 erkan joined #perl6
17:08 ab5tract [Coke]: my suggestion would be to try a different distro on the usb key. if that boots you can mount the home directory and transfer off whatever you want
17:08 ab5tract something like crunchbang
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17:10 itz I can recommend "Recovery is Possible" (RIP) linux distro for repair
17:10 ab5tract timotimo: that can also be unravelled out of using a junction to ` if $a ~~ Mix or $b ~~ Mix {} `
17:11 ab5tract but yeah, it seems to me that the better way will be individual multi definitions which cover all the combinations
17:12 [Coke] itz, ab5tract, thanks.
17:12 [Coke] (part of my issue is that the other machine I have to make the keys is an os x box, which makes me question some of the directions I'm trying. I -think- I'm using the mac to create a pc bootable key, but Iunno. :)
17:14 itz depending on distro dd(1) may work for USB key install
17:14 itz although not always :
17:14 itz :)
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17:26 timotimo ab5tract: the optimizer can only unravel these junctions syntactically
17:26 timotimo the given/when will not allow it to do that
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17:31 ab5tract timotimo: i meant i could manually unravel them :)
17:32 timotimo you can manually write "if $a | $b ~~ Bag"
17:32 timotimo that could work, but i'm not sure if the optimizer does that for ~~, because ~~ directly translates to .ACCEPTS
17:32 timotimo in fact, i don't think it does work
17:32 ab5tract right
17:32 ab5tract then i will go the long-hand route
17:33 timotimo quite sadly, having elegant code in the setting is not always an option ;(
17:33 vendethiel yeah, you have to leave timo write some code as well!
17:33 vendethiel the guy wants to participate
17:34 jepeway joined #perl6
17:34 timotimo wow, sick burn
17:34 vendethiel i k r m 7
17:34 timotimo u wot m8
17:35 * vendethiel hugs his timo
17:35 vendethiel .oO( yer a timo, timo )
17:36 tinyblak_ joined #perl6
17:37 jepeway ola, #p6
17:37 jepeway m: $*TZ = 0 # worky?
17:37 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable Int␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/YCPQZ_Oe9u:1␤␤»
17:37 vendethiel m: my $*TZ = 1;
17:37 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: ( no output )
17:38 jepeway aha! tyvm, ven.
17:38 jepeway um...why worky?
17:39 vendethiel m: my $a ::= 1; $a = 2;
17:39 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to an immutable value␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/evZKDyfYyt:1␤␤»
17:39 vendethiel oh, that's implemented?
17:41 * jepeway just notices that clogs auto-update, no more button-mashing
17:44 moritz jepeway: not intentionally; I think that using the space bar for scolling also triggers the button, or something
17:44 ab5tract timotimo: it was hard to imagine that having a code block with conditional logic would somehow work better than leveraging multi method dispatch
17:45 ab5tract if so, it would indicate to me that MMD would need optimizing
17:45 timotimo very much depends
17:45 ab5tract go on :)
17:46 timotimo sometimes we can do the dispatch at compile time, sometimes we can do it at spesh time, we can always have a little cache at spesh time to give a little boost if it happens to be right the next time
17:46 timotimo er, we *will* always have a little cache
17:46 ab5tract ok
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17:47 ab5tract but is that VM-independent?
17:47 timotimo no
17:47 timotimo spesh is only on moarvm
17:47 timotimo jvm does what it wants :P
17:47 vendethiel jvm does stuff. Might be what it wants, might be what you want, might be what the universe wants :P
17:47 ugator joined #perl6
17:47 ab5tract right
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17:50 jepeway moritz: could be browser-based behavior, i s'pose (safari, fwiw)
17:51 moritz jepeway: I've observed the same on firefox, so it's likely my sloppy js+DOM knowledge
17:51 ab5tract then it seems to me that i shouldn't be coding to the optimizer but rather to a baseline "less costy" approach, no?
17:52 timotimo "the optimizer" is cross-backend, but only works on the AST
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17:53 ab5tract i see! that's good news. to the JIT then
17:53 timotimo mhm
17:53 timotimo well, at least having natives variables is very good for all backends
17:54 timotimo of course the jit on moarvm and jvm's code-gen both get very happy when they see native variables
17:56 timotimo well, to be fair, parrot is also happy about native vars
17:58 moritz timotimo: did you manage to fix your GC+nativecall issue?
17:59 moritz from yesterday or Friday or so
18:01 timotimo yes, it turned out i modelled the CStructs from SDL with completely wrong sizes and SDL wrote some data over the boundaries of these structs
18:01 timotimo so it was my fault, really
18:01 moritz timotimo: still, cookies were promised. /msg me your snail mail address :-)
18:04 timotimo omygosh! cookies!
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18:25 timotimo hum
18:25 timotimo generating an enum at compile time is giving me trouble of the "cannot invoke null object" kind
18:25 timotimo oh, i think i know what i did wrong
18:33 jepeway m: $*TZ.say
18:33 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«3600␤»
18:34 jepeway m: $*TZ.say ; my $*TZ=0; $*TZ.say # hrm?
18:34 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«(Any)␤0␤»
18:34 jepeway why that first (Any)?
18:35 FROGGS_ because you (re)declared $*TZ in that block
18:35 FROGGS_ m: $*TZ.say; { my $*TZ=0; $*TZ.say }
18:35 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«3600␤0␤»
18:36 jepeway so, "my" was compile-time; setting to 0 was runtime; printing before set meant (Any)?
18:36 FROGGS_ m: my $foo = 42; { say $foo; my $foo = 21 }
18:36 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/t5kh__Vxu2�Lexical symbol '$foo' is already bound to an outer symbol;�the implicit outer binding must be rewritten as OUTER::<$foo>�before you can unambiguously declare a new '$foo' in this sc…»
18:36 FROGGS_ that explains it better perhaps
18:37 FROGGS_ jepeway: but yes, your explanation is correct
18:38 jepeway and "my" affects entire block, not just subsequent statements within block?
18:39 FROGGS_ correct
18:40 jepeway ok. tad surprised, but grokking will come, I s'pose.
18:41 * jepeway well, hopes, anyways
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18:56 timotimo so ... how do i create an enum at compile-time without going through the MOP?
18:56 timotimo or through EXPORT
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18:59 vendethiel- m: say ('Prefix' andthen "$_ * ") ~ 'topic name'
18:59 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT« * topic name␤»
19:00 vendethiel- m: say ('Prefix' andthen { "$_ * " }) ~ 'topic name'
19:00 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Prefix * topic name␤»
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19:58 jepeway m: class I { has int $.i; method p(Int $ii) returns I { I.new(i => $.i + $ii) }  } ; class J is I {}; my $j = J.new().p(2) ; say $j # what's a good way to keep $j a (J)?
19:58 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«I.new(i => 2)␤»
19:58 timotimo you want to keep $j an undefined instance of J?
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20:00 jepeway sorry, no, too loose with the notation, i guess.  i meant "what do i do to make $j be an instance of class J." override method p(), of course, but anything smarter?
20:02 timotimo you can use "self.new" instead of I.new
20:02 timotimo that should give you a new J if you call J.p
20:02 moritz replace I.new by self.WHAT.new
20:02 jepeway oh, derp.
20:02 moritz m: class I { has int $.i; method p(Int $ii) returns I { self.WHAT.new(i => $.i + $ii) }}; class J is I {}; my $j = J.new().p(2) ; say $j
20:02 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«J.new(i => 2)␤»
20:03 jepeway m: class I { has int $.i; method p(Int $ii) returns I { self.new(i => $.i + $ii) }  } ; class J is I {}; my $j = J.new().p(2) ; say $j # what's a good way to keep $j a (J)?
20:03 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«J.new(i => 2)␤»
20:04 jepeway do i need the .WHAT?
20:07 jepeway and...what if I couldn't (easily) modify class I?
20:10 moritz then you override method p in the subclass
20:14 jepeway ayup. i guess i could grovel through all methods in I to find those returning an I and override them to return J's if I first implement J.new(I $i)
20:18 moritz in general, inheriting from a class only makes sense if that class was designed with inheritance in mind
20:18 moritz if not, a has-a relation is often more useful and less surprising
20:20 jepeway what's p6 to call I.p() from within J.p()? a la Java's super.p()?
20:20 bjz joined #perl6
20:21 moritz nextsame/nextwith
20:22 FROGGS_ or self.I::p, right?
20:22 moritz yes
20:23 jepeway sure, prefer composition over inheritance. trying to implement a replacement class that overrides a few choice methods, so reached for inheritance first.
20:26 sqirrel_ joined #perl6
20:29 * jepeway found http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2010/12/14/day-14-nextsame-and-its-cousins/
20:29 dalek panda/reporter: cca058d | (Tobias Leich)++ | bin/panda:
20:29 dalek panda/reporter: initialize exclude param in target smoke
20:29 dalek panda/reporter: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/cca058d834
20:36 jepeway m: class DT is DateTime {} ; my DT $x .= new().later(seconds => 2)
20:36 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/CHKKZ0VTw1â�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/CHKKZ0VTw1:1â�¤------> [32mss DT is DateTime {} ; my DT $x .= new()[33mâ��[31m.later(seconds => 2)[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        method arguments…»
20:37 jepeway m: class DT is DateTime {} ; my DT $x = DT.new().later(seconds => 2)
20:37 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Must provide arguments to DateTime.new()␤  in method <anon> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:13676␤  in any find_method_fallback at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:2725␤  in any find_method at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:988␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/8cmOXFOS33:1␤␤»
20:37 synopsebot Link: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S33.html#line_1
20:37 jepeway m: class DT is DateTime {} ; my DT $x = DT.new(now).later(seconds => 2)
20:37 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$x'; expected 'DT' but got 'DateTime'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/limvZMkFE2:1␤␤»
20:37 jepeway m: class DT is DateTime {} ; my DT $x = DT.new(now).later(hours => 2)
20:37 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: ( no output )
20:38 jepeway cf src/core/Temporal.pm:340 or so.
20:40 jepeway bug?
20:40 moritz dunno if bug, but "less than awesome" for sure
20:41 moritz I have a local patch that makes it more subclass-friendly
20:41 moritz spectesting now
20:44 jepeway coolio.
20:49 jepeway well, need to run, but will backlog (& watch commits). ty, moritz++, timotimo++, FROGGS++
20:54 moritz std: my $a = [1, 2]; 'abc' ~~ /$a[0]/
20:54 camelia std 14ad63b: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  Apparent subscript will be treated as regex at /tmp/rk8o2TRNe_ line 1:â�¤------> [32mmy $a = [1, 2]; 'abc' ~~ /$a[33mâ��[31m[0]/[0mâ�¤  [0] appears to be an old-school character class; please use <[0]> if youâ�¤    mean a character…»
20:55 timotimo have fun :)
20:55 dalek rakudo/nom: 0a3c954 | moritz++ | src/core/Temporal.pm:
20:55 dalek rakudo/nom: Make DateTime and Date more friendly to subclassing
20:55 dalek rakudo/nom:
20:55 dalek rakudo/nom: jepeway++
20:55 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0a3c9544e4
20:56 moritz it looks like tests 4 to 7 in S05-metasyntax/litvar.t all assume something other than STD.pm6 does
21:03 dalek cpandatesters.perl6.org: 12a8179 | (Tobias Leich)++ | TODO.md:
21:03 dalek cpandatesters.perl6.org: added TODO.md
21:03 dalek cpandatesters.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/cpandatesters.perl6.org/commit/12a817970e
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21:07 dalek perl6-roast-data: 6b2a7c3 | coke++ | / (5 files):
21:07 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
21:07 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/6b2a7c3455
21:09 timotimo scrolling starfield \o/
21:11 FROGGS \o/
21:13 FROGGS lol:
21:13 FROGGS Unsupported use of /i; in Perl 6 please use :i
21:13 FROGGS at lib\Cache\Memcached.pm:479
21:13 FROGGS ------>         $ip ~~ s:g [ \[ | \] ] = '' i⏏f $ip.defined;
21:13 timotimo hah, ouch
21:14 FROGGS did I mention already that I love my cpandatesters thingy? :D
21:14 ghostlines joined #perl6
21:15 FROGGS though, I really start to hate the peeps that are meant to supply my virtual server
21:15 FROGGS thay guarantee that the server is set up within 24 hours, and, well, that would have been Thursday morning
21:17 raydiak wow 24 hours alone is bad enough...do they build each instance by hand or something?  :)
21:19 timotimo FROGGS: if a shared host is enough for you, check out uberspace
21:19 timotimo they allow you to install and your own postgres, too
21:21 timotimo and run*
21:21 FROGGS timotimo: well, I also need cpu and run to some degree
21:22 FROGGS which means that I ordered a six-core with 6 to 12 gig RAM or so
21:22 timotimo oh wow
21:22 timotimo so you're running your own tests
21:22 timotimo rather than just receiving panda reports?
21:23 FROGGS raydiak: normally it is done in minutes, but their order form is broken, so I've got a Schroedinger's Account
21:23 raydiak haha
21:23 xenoterracide_ joined #perl6
21:23 FROGGS timotimo: I know that the cpantesters servers are quite huge, and I want to be prepared :D
21:23 colomon :)
21:24 FROGGS and yes, being able to smoke all commits would be sweet!
21:24 dalek rakudo/nom: 8739ee4 | usev6++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp:
21:24 dalek rakudo/nom: Add method to throw typed exception X::Syntax::Regex::SolitaryQuantifier
21:24 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8739ee4b00
21:24 dalek rakudo/nom: 2bef929 | lizmat++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp:
21:24 dalek rakudo/nom: Merge pull request #328 from usev6/nom
21:24 dalek rakudo/nom:
21:24 dalek rakudo/nom: Add method to throw typed exception X::Syntax::Regex::SolitaryQuantifier
21:24 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2bef929638
21:24 FROGGS right now my windows 7 box is smoking all ecosystem dists, before my ubuntu laptop did that
21:25 FROGGS but I'd like to receive reports from real users
21:29 moritz does it report automatically?
21:29 FROGGS one of the next steps is his:
21:29 dalek cpandatesters.perl6.org: fe83cfa | (Tobias Leich)++ | TODO.md:
21:29 dalek cpandatesters.perl6.org: added TODO: implement Etags to allow caching of css, js and fonts
21:29 dalek cpandatesters.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/cpandatesters.perl6.org/commit/fe83cfa50a
21:30 FROGGS moritz: yes, with panda (branch reporter) and the env var PANDA_SUBMIT_TESTREPORTS
21:33 * moritz puts it into the bashrc
21:39 raydiak reading "cpandatesters" makes my brain thrash around like it expects a single result but gets a junction of "C panda testers|cpan da testers|cpan datesters|cpanda testers"
21:39 moritz ==> Successfully installed NativeCall
21:39 moritz Could not submit test report: Failed to connect: connection refused
21:39 moritz FROGGS: first piece of feedback: failing to submit a test report should not make panda die
21:39 FROGGS moritz: true, very true
21:39 moritz I did a 'panda install NativeCall Pod::To::HTML URI' but it died after installing NativeCall
21:40 dalek cpandatesters.perl6.org: bc77a9a | (Tobias Leich)++ | TODO.md:
21:40 dalek cpandatesters.perl6.org: added todo
21:40 dalek cpandatesters.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/cpandatesters.perl6.org/commit/bc77a9aa87
21:40 timotimo the profiler isn't terribly useful for nativecall-heavy stuff
21:40 FROGGS err, moritz++
21:41 FROGGS raydiak: my current plan is to set up cpandatesters.org on my own server, and then perhaps make it also available as testers.perl6.org
21:42 moritz and if you are looking for more ideas: integration into modules.perl6.org
21:42 FROGGS and github issues if possible
21:45 raydiak FROGGS: awesome...I think it's clever, was just being amused by how a person's mind can make up its own interpretation separate from the known facts in other parts of the same mind
21:45 raydiak but really what I opened this window for was to ask about .perl
21:45 raydiak how much to de care about how fast it is?
21:46 raydiak or as a more direct question, is there any reason we haven't made it handle non-trivial reference structures yet?
21:46 raydiak ^^how much do we
21:46 FROGGS I think moritz has mused about making that work, right?
21:47 moritz FROGGS: not me. I think it was lizmat++
21:47 FROGGS ohh
21:47 FROGGS hmm, quite possible :o)
21:47 raydiak I keep running in to it, b/c I sometimes tend to use network structures other than trees
21:49 FROGGS would be awesome to see that one fixed of course
21:50 raydiak it doesn't seem hard, but if we're worried about how many .perls we can do per second, I am probably not the one to write it :)
21:50 xenoterracide_ joined #perl6
21:50 raydiak thus the "how much do we care how slow .perl is" question
21:51 moritz raydiak: well, correct is more important first
21:51 FROGGS it has always been "correct is better that fast"
21:51 FROGGS aye
21:51 FROGGS than*
21:53 raydiak hm...I may take a stab at it then
21:53 FROGGS ++raydiak
21:53 lizmat my main reason for not pursuing self referential structures in .perl
21:54 lizmat was that I didn't have a solution for representing them
21:54 lizmat thoughts on that are very welcome
21:54 moritz my idea would be a dynamic var
21:54 raydiak iirc, p5 Data::Dumper literally puts them in separate vars
21:54 moritz with  obj => $str
21:55 moritz and $str is the string which can be used to access stuff
21:55 lizmat my @a; @a[0] = @a   # how would you represent that ?
21:56 timotimo 89.89% time spent in postcircumfix:<( )>
21:57 moritz lizmat: I fear it must be printed out exactly like that
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21:58 moritz lizmat: probably wrapped in a do { } block
21:59 moritz though it'll probably more look like   do { my \PERL1 = Array.new(); PERL1[0] = PERL1; PERL1 }
21:59 raydiak data::dumper gives "$VAR1 = [ $VAR1 ]" :P
22:00 moritz raydiak: my perl 5.20 Data::Dumper hangs
22:00 moritz sleep&
22:00 raydiak moritz: works on 5.18 here..."my @a; $a[0] = \@a; say Dumper(\@a);"
22:00 raydiak 'night moritz
22:00 lizmat good night moritz!
22:01 moritz good night everybody
22:02 colomon o/.
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22:03 raydiak \o you dropped something :)
22:03 colomon ;)
22:05 raydiak but honestly, even if there are cases that turn out to be a real pain, compared to going in to an infinite loop, even some bizarre internal error is better imo
22:06 raydiak I wasted more hours than I'll admit to the first time I ran into this :)
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22:13 raydiak lizmat: so what do you think of moritz's do block approach?
22:14 lizmat looks good in principle...    atm I'm busy with some other stuff, so I can't help right now
22:17 raydiak np I'll leave you to it...I'll kick the idea around later when more people are around, perhaps
22:20 dalek panda: 3ed91f4 | Mouq++ | bin/panda:
22:20 dalek panda: Fix `panda -h`
22:20 dalek panda:
22:20 dalek panda: `#=` was connecting the comments to the wrong MAIN candidates
22:20 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/3ed91f4a1a
22:20 dalek panda: 45675dc | (Tobias Leich)++ | bin/panda:
22:20 dalek panda: Merge pull request #110 from Mouq/master
22:20 dalek panda:
22:20 dalek panda: Fix `panda -h`
22:20 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/45675dc60f
22:22 telex joined #perl6
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22:35 tadzik #| :(
22:36 ghostlines joined #perl6
22:38 FROGGS :#(
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23:40 timotimo now i run into a null pointer somewhere
23:40 timotimo strange
23:41 BenGoldberg . o O (In soviet russia, null pointer runs into you!)
23:42 timotimo the null pointer dereference happens during compilation of the module
23:50 timotimo i can't reproduce it outside of panda >:(

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