Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-11-05

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:23 timotimo hrmpf. lots of fiddling with no good results :\
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02:07 raydiak am I the only one who finds it odd that we numify w/.Numeric but stringify w/.Str, not .Stringy?
02:08 colomon we just don't have much that's Stringy but not Str at the moment.
02:08 colomon while we have lots that's Numeric but not Num
02:09 raydiak I figured it was something like that, it just seems asymettrical in a seemingly needless way
02:11 raydiak I noticed the docs for Stringy mentioned a Cat class which doesn't exist...wonder what that used to be
02:11 colomon it's not been yet
02:12 colomon Cat is a lazy string
02:12 raydiak ah, interesting
02:13 colomon so (for instance) it might make more sense for slurp to return a Cat than a Str
02:14 colomon but I think right now everyone is more interested in getting what we already have working well enough, if you know what I mean.
02:14 raydiak yep...glad we don't *just* run around in circles of reinvention :)
02:15 colomon ;)
02:17 colomon I'm lazily interested in Cat because I've had to sometimes deal with 1 GB text files for work, and it seems like Cat combined with a parse that threw away the "string so far" after ratcheting would be ideal for that.
02:18 colomon but right now Rakudo is still so slow that 1 GB files are kind of out of the question even with extremely clever handling, so I'm not worrying about it.
02:21 raydiak that would be really slick and seamless though, compared to handling small parsable chunks at a time
02:21 raydiak in most cases, laziness is transparent/automatic...why would we need a Cat class?
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02:27 colomon to implement the transparent/automatic stuff
02:28 colomon the idea, of course, is that if you're using a Stringy interface, what you write works with Str or Cat.
02:29 raydiak I mean e.g. Lists can be lazy, but there's not like a List and a LazyList, it's just some private attrs and so forth that control whether/how much an instance is lazy
02:29 raydiak (if I understand how it all works correctly)
02:30 colomon huh
02:30 colomon now I'm halfway to convincing myself that's a flaw in List.  ;)
02:30 raydiak hah :)
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02:31 colomon well, really that we could use a list-ish role that allows us to cleanly consume list-y things
02:31 colomon might be that Iterable is that already.
02:31 colomon I dunno.
02:32 colomon anyway, no one has really explored Cat yet
02:32 colomon and Stringy just sort of hangs around based on the notion that it might be a good abstraction someday.
02:33 raydiak yeah I didn't really have a point, I just often learn new stuff with these meandering trains of thought
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02:41 colomon nothing wrong with that in the least.  :)
02:46 raydiak got any ideas or suggestions for math::symbolic other than the obviously missing peices?
02:46 raydiak *pieces
02:46 dalek roast: 9888da3 | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S10-packages/precompilation.t:
02:46 dalek roast: Unfudge test for 122773 on MoarVM
02:46 dalek roast:
02:46 dalek roast: It's passing now
02:46 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/9888da34c7
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02:56 colomon raydiak: does it work with panda yet?  :)
02:56 raydiak colomon: um...yes? unless you know something I don't...
02:56 colomon nope.  :(
02:56 colomon resolve stage failed for Math::Symbolic: Project Math::Symbolic not found in the ecosystem
02:57 raydiak do a 'panda update' recently?
02:57 colomon 30 seconds ago
02:57 raydiak weird it just worked for me earlier today
02:57 colomon can you install it from panda?
02:57 raydiak yep, just confirmed it still wfm
02:58 colomon :\
02:59 raydiak other modules install fine still?
02:59 colomon yes
03:00 colomon wonder if panda update is somehow broken on my machine?
03:00 raydiak huh...other than running 'update', I'm kinda clueless right now
03:01 raydiak oh look the github urls are broken
03:01 raydiak https://raw2.github.com/raydiak/Math-Symbolic/master/META.info <-- 404
03:02 raydiak must not be affecting me b/c supposedly I ran update before they broke
03:02 raydiak we've had stuff break b/c of github changing its urls or even their html before
03:02 colomon can you run panda info Math::Symbolic and post the results?
03:03 colomon errr… maybe you need to do a panda update and see if you still have Math::Symbolic ?
03:03 raydiak Math::Symbolic
03:03 raydiak Symbolic math for Perl 6
03:03 colomon https://raw.githubusercontent.com/raydiak/Math-Symbolic/master/META.info works
03:03 raydiak State: installed
03:03 colomon for me
03:03 raydiak Source-url: git://github.com/raydiak/Math-Symbolic.git
03:03 raydiak Author: raydiak
03:04 raydiak yes, but all the urls in the ecosystem use raw2.github.com
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03:05 * colomon just did panda install git://github.com/raydiak/Math-Symbolic.git and that seems to be working.  :)
03:06 raydiak every single line in https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/blob/master/META.list is currently a 404 :P
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03:22 raydiak remember that day we went through this b/c panda wasn't handling redirects or something? https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/f4865e52fc2243de6dec0a11189ee22650d17810
03:23 * raydiak goes to s:g/// it again
03:25 dalek ecosystem: 7ff21ca | raydiak++ | META.list:
03:25 dalek ecosystem: Update github URLs (again)
03:25 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/7ff21ca9c7
03:25 raydiak there, now if I didn't break the whole world, I fixed it :)
03:34 colomon :)
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04:05 dalek modules.perl6.org: 8d8a68c | raydiak++ | web/build-project-list.pl:
04:05 dalek modules.perl6.org: Update github URL (again)
04:05 dalek modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/commit/8d8a68cd18
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06:10 dalek ecosystem: 0b7644a | ugexe++ | META.list:
06:10 dalek ecosystem: Update META.list
06:10 dalek ecosystem:
06:10 dalek ecosystem: Text::Table::Simple
06:10 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/0b7644a4d0
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06:41 raydiak ugexe++
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07:30 DelmoreTheDonkey r: any(11,7,5)-all(1,3)
07:30 camelia rakudo-{parrot,moar} 315ec6: ( no output )
07:30 DelmoreTheDonkey r: say any(11,7,5)-all(1,3)
07:30 camelia rakudo-{parrot,moar} 315ec6: OUTPUT«all(any(10, 6, 4), any(8, 4, 2))␤»
07:31 DelmoreTheDonkey why is the output "all(any(10, 6, 4), any(8, 4, 2))"
07:31 DelmoreTheDonkey I was expecting "any(all(10, 6, 4), all(8, 4, 2))"
07:39 moritz DelmoreTheDonkey: not saying that it's wrong, but why did you expect that?
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07:54 DelmoreTheDonkey If I take everything in B away from anything in A should I expect to have everything(all) or anything(any)?
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07:57 moritz DelmoreTheDonkey: you're arguing as if junctions were sets
07:57 moritz DelmoreTheDonkey: they aren't
07:57 moritz junctions only make sense as matchers
07:57 DelmoreTheDonkey ok.
07:57 moritz all(1, 3) means "a matcher that's true if the number I compare it to is both 1 and 3"
07:58 DelmoreTheDonkey what current uses do we have for junctions of junctions?
07:59 moritz for example   if   $filename ~~ any(none('README', 'LICENSE'), none(/^\./))
07:59 moritz imagine you have several files that you want to filter out by junctions
07:59 moritz and one matcher none('README', 'LICENSE'), and one matcher none(/^\./) for dotfiles
08:00 moritz and then you want to test if a file is exluded by either of those
08:01 DelmoreTheDonkey thanks
08:04 DelmoreTheDonkey r: $filename = "README" ; if   $filename ~~ any(none('README', 'LICENSE'), none(/^\./)) { say "YES" }
08:04 camelia rakudo-{parrot,moar} 315ec6: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfileâ�¤Variable '$filename' is not declaredâ�¤at /tmp/tmpfile:1â�¤------> [32m$filename[33mâ��[31m = "README" ; if   $filename ~~ any(none[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfi…»
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08:04 DelmoreTheDonkey r: my $filename = "README" ; if   $filename ~~ any(none('README', 'LICENSE'), none(/^\./)) { say "YES" }
08:04 camelia rakudo-{parrot,moar} 315ec6: OUTPUT«YES␤»
08:05 DelmoreTheDonkey r: my $filename = "COPYRIGHT" ; if   $filename ~~ any(none('README', 'LICENSE'), none(/^\./)) { say "YES" }
08:05 camelia rakudo-{parrot,moar} 315ec6: OUTPUT«YES␤»
08:06 FROGGS m: say "README" ~~ any(none('README', 'LICENSE'), none(/^\./))
08:06 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«True␤»
08:06 FROGGS m: say ".git" ~~ any(none('README', 'LICENSE'), none(/^\./))
08:06 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«True␤»
08:06 FROGGS well, that's always true...
08:06 moritz m: say 'something else' ~~ any(none('README', 'LICENSE'), none(/^\./))
08:06 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«True␤»
08:06 FROGGS m: say (".git" ~~ any(none('README', 'LICENSE'), none(/^\./))).perl
08:06 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
08:07 moritz huh
08:07 moritz oh
08:07 raydiak it's right
08:07 moritz it must be all()
08:07 FROGGS any of them is always true :o)
08:07 FROGGS m: say (".git" ~~ all(none('README', 'LICENSE'), none(/^\./))).perl
08:07 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
08:07 moritz m: say 'something else' ~~ all(none('README', 'LICENSE'), none(/^\./))
08:07 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«True␤»
08:07 moritz m: say '.git' ~~ all(none('README', 'LICENSE'), none(/^\./))
08:07 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«False␤»
08:07 moritz so the all() check tells if you something isn't ignored
08:08 moritz and this, ladies and gentlemen, is why it's probably best not to use nested junctions :-)
08:09 FROGGS moritz: well, it makes sense in case the none() parts are in variables
08:09 moritz possibly
08:09 FROGGS so you keep an array of junctions that specify what should be ignored, and push to that array depending on the platform you are running on or so
08:09 moritz actually
08:10 moritz the junctions specify what to *not* ignore in my example
08:10 moritz which is why we need all(), not any()
08:10 FROGGS or that
08:11 moritz if specify what to ignore, you use any() junctions, and then again any() junctions to combine them
08:11 moritz which is a lot more intuitive, IMHO
08:11 moritz and less spectacular from a "nested junctions" POV, because any(a, any(b, c)) is equivalent to any(a, b, c)
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09:40 grondilu hello, if someone wants to help writing a C parser:  https://github.com/grondilu/C
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09:43 FROGGS grondilu: I've seen a (huge) C grammar written in Perl 6 already
09:44 grondilu ok
09:44 grondilu where is it?
09:44 FROGGS I am already searching for it
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09:48 FROGGS grondilu: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-03-29#i_6643290
09:50 grondilu ok thanks
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09:59 brrt grondilu: this because of the c4 thingy?
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10:00 FROGGS c4?
10:03 brrt https://github.com/rswier/c4/blob/master/c4.c
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10:04 FROGGS interesting
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10:08 MalliParitala Hello
10:09 MalliParitala I want to help Perl6
10:09 FROGGS hi MalliParitala
10:10 MalliParitala Hello FROGGS
10:10 peteretep MalliParitala: Great! Just send over your CC details, and we'll get started
10:10 thou joined #perl6
10:10 brrt hi MalliParitala, what do you want to do? there is a lot to do :-)
10:11 brrt one of the best ways to help perl6 is to start using it, and report to us any issues that you find
10:11 MalliParitala I know Perl5
10:11 MalliParitala i can code in Perl5
10:11 MalliParitala Ok
10:12 FROGGS MalliParitala: you could for example port a module from Perl 5 to Perl 6, if you want to...
10:12 MalliParitala Okay.
10:13 MalliParitala Do we have list of modules need to be ported to Perl6?
10:15 brrt well, anything you like, really
10:15 brrt we have modules.perl6.org
10:15 brrt http://modules.perl6.org
10:15 brrt if you find that any perl5 module you frequently use is not represented there, you can try and port it
10:16 MalliParitala Cool.
10:16 brrt of course, we already have a list like that: https://github.com/perl6/perl6-most-wanted/blob/master/most-wanted/modules.md
10:16 MalliParitala Thanks brrt
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10:17 brrt you're welcome :-) i hope you can find something to your liking
10:17 MalliParitala Do i need to provide my mail ID so that i can get updates about perl6 work?
10:17 kjs_ joined #perl6
10:17 brrt no, you can subscribe to one of the mailing lists
10:17 MalliParitala Okay.
10:18 brrt http://perl6.org/community/ this page gives you all the information you might want
10:18 brrt or perhaps, are likely to want
10:18 MalliParitala I will start using Perl6 first. Thanks much.
10:18 brrt no problem. please keep us updated with anything you might encounter
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10:31 grondilu brrt: not really.  More that I'd like a C parser to automate X11 bindings
10:32 brrt i see
10:32 brrt :-)
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10:41 dalek specs: edb565d | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-setting-library/IO.pod:
10:41 dalek specs: Revert "Spec dir() default exclusion to all /^\./"
10:41 dalek specs:
10:41 dalek specs: It appears the consensus is to just ignore . and ..
10:41 dalek specs:
10:41 dalek specs: This reverts commit 91c184fbb816b642b9ac724db65352e6cfd2eb3a.
10:41 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/edb565d38f
10:42 dalek rakudo/nom: 1ad58fc | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/IO.pm:
10:42 dalek rakudo/nom: Revert "dir primitives exclude anything starting with ".""
10:42 dalek rakudo/nom:
10:42 dalek rakudo/nom: It appears the consensus is to just ignore '.' and '..' by default
10:42 dalek rakudo/nom:
10:42 dalek rakudo/nom: This reverts commit f7c7b06a98fdd89ab8686ed52d4d9746fb0b0189.
10:42 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1ad58fceeb
10:42 grondilu FROGGS: added a comment on your fork:  https://gist.github.com/FROGGS/5268178#comment-1331609
10:43 grondilu meh nevermind.  I removed it.  I suspect it was dumb.
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10:55 grondilu still, a line like 'token integer-constant:radix(8) { <octal-constant> <integer-suffix>* }' does not compile for me.  Gets 'Colon pair value '8' too complex to use in name'
10:56 grondilu not sure about this :radix() thing means.
10:56 grondilu std: grammar { token integer-constant:radix(8) { <octal-constant>  <integer-suffix>* }
10:56 camelia std 14ad63b: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Unable to parse block at /tmp/bX0PtG7jJe line 1:�------> [32mgrammar [33m�[31m{ token integer-constant:radix(8) { <oct[0m�Couldn't find final '}'; gave up at /tmp/bX0PtG7jJe line 1 (EOF):�------> [32m { <octal-constan…»
10:56 grondilu std: grammar { token integer-constant:radix(8) { .* } }
10:56 camelia std 14ad63b: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 141m␤»
11:00 FROGGS m: grammar { token integer-constant:radix<8> { .* } }
11:00 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: ( no output )
11:01 FROGGS you can use that, it is the same
11:01 FROGGS m: grammar { token integer-constant:radix('8') { .* } }
11:01 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/io14Bn_gyv�Colon pair value ''8'' too complex to use in name�at /tmp/io14Bn_gyv:1�------> [32mmmar { token integer-constant:radix('8')[33m�[31m { .* } }[0m�»
11:01 FROGGS m: grammar { token integer-constant:radix['8'] { .* } }
11:01 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/qzLW5hSsJb�Colon pair value ''8'' too complex to use in name�at /tmp/qzLW5hSsJb:1�------> [32mmmar { token integer-constant:radix['8'][33m�[31m { .* } }[0m�»
11:01 FROGGS m: grammar { token integer-constant:radix[8] { .* } }
11:01 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/XbYIEfq_XH�Colon pair value '8' too complex to use in name�at /tmp/XbYIEfq_XH:1�------> [32mrammar { token integer-constant:radix[8][33m�[31m { .* } }[0m�»
11:01 FROGGS hmmm
11:01 dalek specs: 1d0834c | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S16-io.pod:
11:01 dalek specs: Remove :test parameter from chdir/tmpdir/homedir
11:01 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/1d0834c784
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11:18 dalek nqp: 92f6783 | (Tobias Leich)++ | tools/build/MOAR_REVISION:
11:18 dalek nqp: bump moar rev (#122896)
11:18 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/92f6783d65
11:18 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=122896
11:18 dalek rakudo/nom: d2e301e | (Tobias Leich)++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
11:18 dalek rakudo/nom: bump nqp/moar rev (#122896)
11:18 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d2e301e24a
11:18 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=122896
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11:22 psch hi #perl6 o/
11:22 * lizmat pulls, builds and starts a spectest
11:23 lizmat psch \o
11:23 psch FROGGS: there's a ticket for the colon pair thingy you fiddled with in the clog, but RT is really slow for me atm
11:23 psch lizmat o/
11:23 FROGGS psch: I remember solving a bug in that area...
11:25 psch FROGGS: 50c765 has you putting in the exception
11:26 psch which was about 2 months ago
11:26 FROGGS yeah
11:26 psch i *think* the ticket was noticeably older, let me see if i can convince my phone to let me search on RT... :)
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11:30 dalek roast: 11575cc | (Tobias Leich)++ | packages/Test/Util.pm:
11:30 dalek roast: prefer $*EXECUTABLE over $*EXECUTABLE_NAME
11:30 dalek roast:
11:30 dalek roast: ...since $*EXECUTABLE gives us an absolute path to the perl6 binary, rather than just "perl6".
11:30 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/11575cc0ed
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11:39 psch m: (:a['b']).WHAT.say
11:39 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«(Pair)␤»
11:39 psch m: (:a['b']).say
11:39 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«"a" => ["b"]␤»
11:39 psch m: (:a('b')).say
11:39 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«"a" => "b"␤»
11:39 psch those semantics aren't quite right, are they?
11:40 psch specifically, the first one shouldn't have an array as value
11:41 psch oh, it should
11:41 psch S02:3652
11:41 synopsebot Link: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html#line_3652
11:41 psch (assuming lines in vim translate correctly...)
11:42 psch nope, they don't
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11:49 azawawi hi #perl6
11:49 azawawi im getting "resolve stage failed for $module-name" from panda installs. Is there a problem with latest panda?
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11:50 azawawi panda install Farabi6
11:50 azawawi resolve stage failed for Farabi6: Project Farabi6 not found in the ecosystem
11:51 azawawi latest github panda, and rebootstrapped...
11:52 colomon according to my smoke test run, there's nothing in the ecosystem at all.  though that was as of 5 hours ago.
11:52 lizmat FROGGS: looks like the spectest is significantly slower after this update
11:52 lizmat before: Files=930, Tests=33836, 172 wallclock secs ( 8.98 usr  3.36 sys + 1041.29 cusr 163.08 csys = 1216.71 CPU)
11:52 azawawi i guess it was the latest rakudo when i pulled it
11:52 lizmat after: Files=930, Tests=34048, 208 wallclock secs ( 8.74 usr  3.21 sys + 1276.04 cusr 184.99 csys = 1472.98 CPU)
11:53 * azawawi rebuilds rakudo
11:54 azawawi the first thing i dont when i log on to play with perl6 is a 'cd ~/rakudo && git pull && (git log | less)' :)
11:54 lizmat looks like bare startup time almost *doubled*
11:54 lizmat before ~ .21 sec, now ~ .34 sec
11:54 lizmat and I'm still seeing flappy tests :-(
11:56 azawawi hmmm projects.json has only []
11:56 lizmat (ok, more like 1.6x slower)
11:57 azawawi after a perl6 rebootstrap, projects.json has only '[]'
11:57 azawawi panda regression?
11:57 lizmat feels to me this version of moar is more like using more and giving less  :-(
11:57 lizmat github URL change wtf ?
11:58 thou joined #perl6
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12:15 azawawi has anyone tried latest panda with latest rakudo?
12:23 FROGGS lizmat: the consensus was to deprecate $*EXECUTABLE, so, they way forward might be to speedup $*EXECUTABLE if that is possible
12:23 FROGGS lizmat: in what areas are the flapping tests?
12:27 lizmat azawawi: what are you seeing ?
12:28 lizmat fwiw, a rebootstrap worked for me just now
12:28 azawawi really?
12:28 azawawi sorry i was away a bit
12:28 * lizmat as well
12:29 azawawi same problem as http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-11-05#i_9612344
12:29 * lizmat needs to get some other things done before travelling to London for LPW this weekend
12:30 FROGGS problem is that http://feather.perl6.nl:3000/projects.json is empty (and empty json array)
12:32 FROGGS tadzik: ping
12:33 FROGGS tadzik: the service here needs to be adjusted: http://feather.perl6.nl:3000/projects.json you need to apply a patch similar to https://github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/commit/8d8a68cd18
12:33 azawawi alright i caught one... FROGGS++
12:33 * azawawi fishes for other bugs :)
12:34 lizmat the pond is still pretty full  :-)
12:35 azawawi which is good, right? :)
12:36 kaleem joined #perl6
12:38 azawawi panda install rakudo # that would be fun :)
12:39 azawawi i was working on integrating perl6-debug-m with farabi6 to provide a gui
12:40 azawawi so far im near its completion... stepping in/out, ...etc
12:40 azawawi ironing some bugs here & there
12:45 lizmat FROGGS: flapping tests are all over the map
12:46 lizmat FROGGS: not sure what you mean with "the consensus was to deprecate $*EXECUTABLE, so, they way forward might be to speedup $*EXECUTABLE if that is possible"
12:46 FROGGS lizmat: I have not a single failing test
12:46 * lizmat guesses you're not on OSX
12:47 FROGGS lizmat: we want to replace $*EXECUTABLE_NAME by $*EXECUTABLE
12:47 lizmat aha   :-)
12:47 FROGGS sorry :o)
12:47 FROGGS correct, I'm using ubuntu
12:48 lizmat on JVM and Moar, EXECUTABLE depends on $*VM, and that's the costly bit, I guess
12:49 lizmat EXECUTABLE creation is not particularly expensive
12:49 FROGGS tadzik: looks like your modules/updatelist.pl needs to run under PERL_LWP_SSL_VERIFY_HOSTNAME=0
12:52 woolfy1 left #perl6
12:54 azawawi was rakudo star 2014.10 released or not?
12:55 lizmat not that I'm aware of
12:55 azawawi it is strange that we deprecate something in 2014.10 and then we dont release it to the public :)
13:01 lizmat azawawi: afaik we only deprecate rakudo compiler versions... not rakudo star
13:08 woolfy joined #perl6
13:11 moritz azawawi: though if you want to make a star release for 2014.10, feel free!
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13:28 azawawi moritz: :)
13:29 * azawawi is waiting for his home AMD PC to be returned from the repair shop today :)
13:35 [Coke] m: say (10,6,4 X- 8,4,2).sort.uniq
13:35 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«-4 -2 0 2 4 6 8␤»
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13:44 lucas__ hello #perl6
13:45 lizmat lucas__ o/
13:45 PerlJam greetings lucas__
13:45 lucas__ thanks!
13:46 thou joined #perl6
13:47 dalek specs: 4e09ab8 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S16-io.pod:
13:47 dalek specs: Some more :test eradication
13:47 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/4e09ab808a
13:47 lucas__ So, following the conventions of traditional Unix and Perl 5 manpages, would it be interesting to move AUTHORS sections to the very end of the file, instead of leaving them at the very beginning?
13:48 lucas__ Having said that, I have to say I fully admire the hard work of the original authors. I hope this is not disrespectful.
13:49 lucas__ But I think nowadays, the specs are community-property, rather than the work of sole-authors like it was "In The Beginning".
13:50 lizmat I guess the AUTHORS section also predates anything like "git blame"  :-)
13:53 lizmat or automatic author fetching from the git blobs
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14:09 [Coke] moar nojit - 10 failing tests. :(
14:14 colomon m: say FatRat.new(1, 10*1000).floor.perl
14:14 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«0␤»
14:14 colomon m: say FatRat.new(10*1000,3).floor.perl
14:14 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«3333␤»
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14:24 [Coke] moar jit failing a different 10 tests. no confidence it's fixed, though.
14:25 arnsholt r-m: my $a = 1; { say $a; my $a = 2; say $a; };
14:25 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/X8vZFxRGjM�Lexical symbol '$a' is already bound to an outer symbol;�the implicit outer binding must be rewritten as OUTER::<$a>�before you can unambiguously declare a new '$a' in this scope�…»
14:26 arnsholt Aha. That's sensible
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14:36 psch m: 6; $a = 1; { say $a; my $a = 2; say $a }
14:36 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/CnCEdQ9PNl�Lexical symbol '$a' is already bound to an outer symbol;�the implicit outer binding must be rewritten as OUTER::<$a>�before you can unambiguously declare a new '$a' in this scope�…»
14:36 psch m: 6; $a = 1; say $a
14:36 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«1␤»
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14:41 lucas__ Do I have an "OK" from someone for moving the AUTHORS section to the end? I think that would be an easy change. Then, I would submit a pull request. I think ownership discourages contributions. I'm just trying to clean up the specs a little bit. This change would unclutter the top of the documents for more useful information like introduction/overview/summary of the text. I won't change anything in the section, just move it to the end. Would such change be a
14:43 bowtie_ joined #perl6
14:43 lucas__ And... what about my current spec pull request, any opinions yet?
14:44 moritz lucas__: truncated after "Would such change be"
14:44 moritz lucas__: and yes, you have my +1
14:44 muraiki joined #perl6
14:44 lucas__ ... Would such change be accepted or be wasted effort? Should I just do it to see how things look? Anyway, it should be easy to hit the close button on my pull request, right?
14:45 lucas__ I didn't knew this thing truncates... thanks.
14:45 moritz lucas__: re your pull request, IMHO the feedback infomration belongs to the index page, perlcabal.org/syn/
14:47 moritz lucas__: that page is currentl in the perl6/mu repo, and IMHO should go into the perl6/specs repo, but that requires updating cron-jobs too
14:48 dalek specs: 487e7d4 | (Lucas Buchala)++ | S (12 files):
14:48 dalek specs: Move source/repository information to S01
14:48 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/487e7d48c3
14:48 dalek specs: 8f5f83a | (Lucas Buchala)++ | S (12 files):
14:48 dalek specs: Move contributions/additions information to S01
14:48 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/8f5f83a66b
14:48 dalek specs: d7bd63b | moritz++ | S (15 files):
14:48 dalek specs: Merge pull request #72 from lucasbuchala/move-notes
14:48 dalek specs:
14:48 dalek specs: Move notes around
14:48 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/d7bd63bce5
14:48 moritz lucas__: but they are an improvement nonetheless, so I'm merging them
14:48 lucas__ moritz: Thanks, again.
14:50 ClarusCogitatio joined #perl6
14:51 moritz lucas__: also you should have an invitation for a commi bit already
14:53 lucas__ moritz: Oh, that github organization thing? :D I didn't know it was a commit bit.
14:53 ghostlines joined #perl6
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14:54 moritz lucas__: it's actually a whole bunch of commit bits (there are many repos in there)
14:54 colomon did we ever get an "is symmetric" or "is commutative"  trait?
14:56 psch ISTR not being able to commit to perl6/nqp even with belonging to the perl6 org.  i think that makes sense, because nqp probably also wants the CLA?
14:56 moritz psch: it simply has separate teams
14:56 moritz psch: if you need an nqp comit bit, let me know
14:56 moritz psch: (and tell me your github ID)
15:01 psch moritz: i don't usually need it, but i'll speak up again in case it looks like i'm doing more in nqp. thanks
15:02 adu joined #perl6
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15:04 psch fwiw, what i did in nqp up to now was just a failed refactoring attempt and a few overloadable methods for typed exceptions, which is quick enough to review
15:04 psch in contrast to e.g. the rakudo cliparser or tr/// branches
15:06 chenryn joined #perl6
15:07 * psch .oO( although removing the neccessity of reviewing frees up time for others, and we do have at least reasonable test coverage... )
15:07 bowtie_ joined #perl6
15:11 Ven joined #perl6
15:12 Ven o/, #perl6.
15:12 psch Ven \o
15:12 * PerlJam just saw http://xkcd.com/1443/
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15:28 FROGGS tadzik: ping
15:32 ClarusCogitatio joined #perl6
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15:37 psch huh.  so for 'sub infix:["a"] { }' World::colonpair_nibble_to_str gets an NQPMatch from the grammar, but NQPMu from the actions...?
15:43 tadzik FROGGS: pong
15:43 tadzik catching up with backlog :)
15:45 FROGGS tadzik: please read my last lines :o)
15:46 FROGGS and rerun the updatelist.pl under that env var
15:46 timotimo o/
15:47 timotimo i'm glad that it wasn't my fault the ecosystem suddenly broke
15:47 tadzik oh
15:47 tadzik the URL is actually correct
15:48 tadzik but the env var is necessary, yes
15:49 FROGGS tadzik: sorry that I had to a foot in you home directory :o)
15:49 timotimo disabling https certificate validation sounds like a huge smell ...
15:49 tadzik FROGGS: no worries :)
15:49 tadzik timotimo: yeah, my thoughts exactly
15:49 FROGGS tadzik: I did not look at your p0rn, promise :P
15:49 timotimo what's wrong? is their certificate self-signed? or expired?
15:49 ClarusCogitatio joined #perl6
15:50 FROGGS we can install their cert, that should also do I guess
15:50 timotimo i would prefer that, but i don't know how to handle certificate storage and stuff ...
15:50 dalek rakudo/nom: 0f77ebe | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/IO.pm:
15:50 dalek rakudo/nom: Introduce CHANGE-DIRECTORY primitive
15:50 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0f77ebe1ca
15:50 dalek rakudo/nom: 2b57f3f | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (2 files):
15:50 dalek rakudo/nom: Eradicate :test from chdir/indir/tmpdir/homedir
15:50 dalek rakudo/nom:
15:50 dalek rakudo/nom: As per current consensus / spec
15:50 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2b57f3f488
15:51 PerlJam lizmat++ yay!
15:51 tadzik github cert in my browser verifies perfectly well
15:51 FROGGS tadzik: for me too
15:51 tinyblak_ joined #perl6
15:51 tadzik is our LWP too old on feather?
15:52 zakharyas joined #perl6
15:52 tadzik and using some version of SSL that's not cool anymore?
15:52 tadzik (so, any of them? :P)
15:52 FROGGS ahh btw, depending on the perl 5 ssl module you use, it does not do cert verification at all
15:53 sqirrel__ joined #perl6
15:59 tadzik I'm using Perl from /usr/local/bin/perl, no local::lib as far as I can see
15:59 tadzik so it's just using feather's system libraries
16:00 tadzik I blame LWP, perhaps it's missing proper TLS support, lacking underlying libraries?
16:01 FROGGS tadzik: do you explicitly use an ssl library before you use lwp?
16:01 tadzik no
16:01 tadzik should I? :)
16:04 FROGGS I am... not sure right now
16:05 FROGGS maybe that helps? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/74358/how-can-i-get-lwp-to-validate-ssl-server-certificates
16:05 FROGGS i.e. setting HTTPS_CA_DIR=/usr/share/ca-certificates/ (if that path exists)
16:07 FROGGS no, that does not help
16:08 telex joined #perl6
16:08 lucas__ Hi there. I've just finished moving authors downstairs. It's a spec pull request now. I hope it's correct.
16:10 atta joined #perl6
16:10 [Tux] Failed running perl Configure.pl --backends=moar --gen-moar at /pro/3gl/CPAN/rakudobrew/bin/rakudobrew line 25.
16:11 FROGGS tadzik: I found it!
16:12 FROGGS tadzik:  that works: HTTPS_CA_FILE=/etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt perl updatelist.pl
16:12 tadzik \o/
16:12 FROGGS so, set it in your script and you are done
16:12 tadzik yeah, should work
16:12 FROGGS tadzik: I tested it on that server :o)
16:13 [Tux] rakudobrew 514 > rakudobrew build moar
16:13 [Tux] Already up-to-date.
16:13 [Tux] Your branch is up-to-date with 'origin/nom'.
16:13 [Tux] make: *** No rule to make target 'm-clean', needed by 'clean'.  Stop.
16:13 [Tux] Failed running make realclean at /pro/3gl/CPAN/rakudobrew/bin/rakudobrew line 25.
16:13 kaleem joined #perl6
16:13 tadzik yay, works :)
16:13 FROGGS tadzik: please close https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/issues/34 when the projects.json contains data :o)
16:13 FROGGS [Tux]: is that error fatal?
16:14 ClarusCogitatio joined #perl6
16:14 [Tux] yes: and it happens on the system that was recently upgraded from i686 to x68_64
16:14 [Tux] make distclean and/or git clean -dfx don't work
16:15 tadzik FROGGS: huh, the frontend complains about Cwd.pm
16:15 tadzik the lakc of it, that is
16:15 FROGGS O.o
16:15 tadzik restarted it, now it works :)
16:15 FROGGS yeah, it does not complain in my shell
16:16 FROGGS [Tux]: I nearly know nothing about rakudobrew, but the other guy here does :o)
16:16 tadzik weird
16:18 bowtie joined #perl6
16:29 tony-o how would i represent this structure for nativecall?  http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa383713%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
16:29 * [Tux] starts from scratch …
16:32 psch m: sub infix:{a} { } # /o\
16:32 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Internal error: find_var_decl could not find $_␤»
16:34 dalek cpandatesters.perl6.org: 53ca4a4 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (2 files):
16:34 dalek cpandatesters.perl6.org: implement client side caching via Etags
16:34 dalek cpandatesters.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/cpandatesters.perl6.org/commit/53ca4a4f82
16:34 dalek specs: 3d64f1a | (Lucas Buchala)++ | S (38 files):
16:34 dalek specs: Move AUTHORS sections to end of file
16:34 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/3d64f1a099
16:34 dalek specs: 25d0973 | lizmat++ | S (38 files):
16:34 dalek specs: Merge pull request #73 from lucasbuchala/move-authors
16:34 dalek specs:
16:34 dalek specs: Move AUTHORS sections to end of file
16:34 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/25d0973b3e
16:35 [Tux] lizmat, feedback on speed for Text::CSV6
16:35 [Tux] i686      i686      x68_64
16:35 [Tux] 20141007  20141014  20141105
16:35 [Tux] ------------------  -------- --------- ---------
16:35 [Tux] Text::CSV::Easy_XS     0.022     0.021     0.037
16:35 [Tux] Text::CSV::Easy_PP     0.018     0.022     0.028
16:35 [Tux] Text::CSV_XS           0.038     0.039     0.046
16:35 [Tux] Text::CSV_PP           0.651     0.535     0.533
16:35 [Tux] Pegex::CSV             1.947     1.420     1.387
16:35 [Tux] csv.pl                12.543     8.437     9.152
16:35 [Tux] test.pl              256.985   201.621    71.847
16:35 tony-o FROGGS: have you run across representing a union of structs for nativecall yet?
16:35 lizmat [Tux]: will look at it tonight
16:35 [Tux] (the last two are perl6)
16:36 [Tux] my approach gained a factor 3 without changing a single character: pure gain in perl6
16:36 lizmat [Tux]: in case other people want to look at it: what was the repo again?
16:36 [Tux] one sec
16:37 [Tux] https://github.com/Tux/CSV
16:37 FROGGS tony-o: timotimo was working on that
16:38 tony-o FROGGS: i will hold off on these 2 functions then :-)
16:38 FROGGS tony-o: what two functions?
16:38 * [Tux] carefully pokes tadzik about his promised slang
16:38 tony-o FROGGS: win32 calls to QueryPerformance[Frequency|Counter]
16:41 tadzik [Tux]: I promised a slang? :o
16:43 [Tux] yes: i can haz a space between the function name and the opening paren
16:43 psch m: say\     ("spaaace")
16:43 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«spaaace␤»
16:43 tadzik sure that wasn't timtoady? :D
16:44 [Tux] yes, you promised me in Liz' room in Sofia
16:44 FROGGS [Tux]: are you talking about a grammar by any chance?
16:44 [Tux] did the name change? :P
16:45 FROGGS no :o)
16:45 [Tux] fwiw that promise might have been the main reason I got back into trying perl6
16:45 FROGGS a slang let you write in another language literally subsequent blocks
16:46 FROGGS in subsequent*
16:46 * [Tux] doesn't care what its called, as long as I can write «function (arg, arg);» instead of «function( arg, arg );»
16:46 FROGGS and a grammar is just a class-like regex
16:46 FROGGS ahh
16:46 FROGGS that's a slang then
16:48 treehug88 joined #perl6
16:49 FROGGS [Tux]: creating a slang that inherits from the Perl 6 grammar is not easily doable as of today
16:50 [Tux] I want it yesterday, but next week will be good enough :}
16:50 FROGGS :S
16:50 [Tux] seriously: that is the most important issue that is holding me from having FUN in perl6
16:50 [Tux] and I know more people that have similar issues
16:51 FROGGS I am thinking about it... gimme some time
16:51 [Tux] I will
16:51 [Tux] I won't be here very often, but lizmat will know how to reach me
16:52 woolfy FOSDEM 2015 in Brussels will be quite special for us.  Larry Wall will be there (I'm so proud and happy, wow).
16:52 woolfy Look at this schedule:  https://fosdem.org/2015/schedule/track/languages/
16:52 woolfy You might see the first talk, just accepted by the FOSDEM organisation.  Get ready to party.  Yay!
16:53 lizmat https://fosdem.org/2015/schedule/event/get_ready_to_party/
16:54 woolfy Only (minor) problem: the Perl-devroom is also on a Saturday.  Whoever has his/her presentation from 15:00-16:00, might nog have many attendees...
16:55 woolfy I can live with such a problem. :-)
16:56 PerlJam "2015 will be the year that Perl 6 officially launches for production use"  is kind of a bold claim.
16:56 PerlJam (I'm not saying it won't happen, just that any hiccups will be magnified)
16:57 colomon woah, that's only three months away!
16:57 woolfy PerlJam: bold claims can be good!
16:58 psch $ perl6 -e'sub infix:["a"]($,$) { "foo" }; say 1 a 1'
16:58 psch foo
16:58 psch now for the spectest to see if anything broke :s
16:58 [Tux] having been present with perl6 launch (mug event in Monteray), it would be a good Idea to also be present at fosdem
16:58 PerlJam woolfy: agreed. But the delivery must be close to flawless otherwise we get all the naysayers coming out of the woodwork *worse* than I expect they already will
16:59 psch oh, that talk looks exciting
16:59 lizmat I have no doubt that a lot of shit is going to hit the fan
16:59 PerlJam [Tux]: Do you think there will be flying, breaking mugs at fosdem too? : )
16:59 PerlJam er, :-)
16:59 lizmat but that's only to be expected
17:00 [Tux] PerlJam, nope
17:00 lizmat (thinking about all of the shit that's already flying around on perlmonks, reddit, etc.)
17:00 lizmat .oO( note to self: bring disposable mugs)
17:01 PerlJam lizmat: you know what would make me really happy? (and this is totally irrational)  If chromatic gives Rakudo a try again, likes it, and recants on the negative vibes he's been sending our way.
17:01 * lizmat is reminded of an Eagles album: hell freezes over
17:02 lizmat I'm just afraid chromatic suffers too much by the "not invented by me" syndrome
17:02 lizmat *from
17:03 lizmat cycling&
17:04 PerlJam chromatic: and if you're watching us from afar (because, say, a google alert was triggered when we mention your name :) ...   *hugs*   :)
17:05 tadzik [Tux]: ah, I remember now :)
17:05 [Tux] :) ☺
17:06 woolfy PerlJam: we might even want to ask him for a "Modern Perl 6" book.  Along with many other interesting books...  Programming Perl 6 (Larry), Beginning Perl (Curtis 'Ovid' Poe), Perl 6 Best Practices (Damian Conway), etc
17:07 woolfy Flying and breaking mugs...  we buried the meme in Perl, august 2012.  :-)
17:07 arnsholt masak: As our resident category theorist (I guess), what would you recommend as an introductory text to the field?
17:08 PerlJam woolfy: I think we'll have to wait until Perl 6 has been released to the wild for several years before there's enough material for a "Modern Perl 6" book.
17:09 PerlJam woolfy: Though, a "Modern Perl" book that has a chapter on Perl 6 doesn't seem too far out there.
17:11 woolfy PerlJam: either way, chromatic coming back would be lovely
17:11 woolfy cycling&
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17:18 tony-o is there a way to get a handle for the current process and for a 'start'ed async block (is there a separate handle for that)?
17:21 moritz tony-o: the return value of start { } is a Promise
17:21 moritz tony-o: which you can use to wait for the thread, extract the result, and maybe even cancle the thing
17:22 tony-o moritz: i'm looking to pass a p6 version of C's HANDLE to NativeCall, I'm just not sure where i can get that
17:22 moritz tony-o: oh, so file handles?
17:22 tony-o Process and Thread handles
17:22 moritz rmpf, no idea
17:22 tony-o rmpf?
17:22 moritz noise of dissatisfaction
17:23 tony-o oh, hard to tell what is and isn't an acronym now
17:23 moritz :-)
17:23 moritz lol I blug: http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/2014-community-server-funding.html
17:24 PerlJam (moritz's employer)++
17:25 PerlJam looks like I have to make sure I can still use my paypal account now
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17:28 arnsholt tony-o: I don't think there's a way to get the underlying C stuff relating to a Perl 6-level thread ATM
17:28 arnsholt Not sure if that's even a good idea (or feasible, certainly near impossible on JVM I suspect)
17:28 ajr_ If I started working through Perl 5 examples, converting them to Perl 6, and asking why when they break, would that be a valuable guide to writing an introduction to Perl 6, or an annoying display of stupidity?
17:28 moritz ajr_: I'd be interested
17:28 tony-o ajr_: sounds pretty useful
17:30 tony-o arnsholt: i'm trying to use NativeCall to get process times on windows, it wants to get Process HANDLE or Thread HANDLE and I'm having trouble figuring out how to use those.  (I'm caling GetProcessTimes and GetThreadTimes specifically)
17:30 ajr_ (I tried working through "Mastering Algorithms" a while back, and crashed and burned so fast it didn't feel worth continuing.)
17:31 arnsholt tony-o: I think you'll have to hack deeply into the NQP guts to get at that, if it's even possible
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18:24 vendethiel I don't really like python, but I have to admit "python gangsta rap" is the best thing ever
18:24 vendethiel ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ7QsEytQq4 )
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18:33 timotimo hm, what was i working on?
18:34 FROGGS spesh?
18:34 FROGGS profiling json::tiny?
18:34 FROGGS union support?
18:37 sjn memory recall techniques? :)
18:37 grettis joined #perl6
18:37 FROGGS sjn++
18:38 FROGGS vendethiel: :P
18:46 timotimo ah, unions in nativecall
18:46 timotimo i've thrown some ideas around, none of them seeming thoroughly satisfying
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18:57 arnsholt timotimo: Might be possible to make them work more or less identically to structs
18:57 arnsholt Except how the read memory, obviously =)
18:57 arnsholt *they
18:57 guru joined #perl6
18:58 timotimo yes
18:58 timotimo well, only how they lay out the memory
18:58 timotimo i thought i could have a trait "is union" that would have a flag set in the REPRData before compose gets called
18:58 timotimo and that would just make the CStruct begin each member at offset 0
19:02 arnsholt Oooh, clever idea!
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19:10 dalek perl6-roast-data: 61d6f11 | coke++ | / (4 files):
19:10 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
19:10 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/61d6f116fe
19:15 vendethiel okay, so, the GLR semantics aren't going to change now, right?
19:15 raiph joined #perl6
19:15 vendethiel I've been slacking off on the tutorial lately, and by now "waiting to explain the list stuff" is no more an excuse :)
19:17 ugator joined #perl6
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19:33 timotimo arnsholt: if you like it that much, why not implement it? :))
19:45 antigremlin joined #perl6
19:45 dalek Perlito: edff284 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (2 files):
19:45 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - fix BEGIN block namespace
19:45 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/commit/edff28465f
19:50 FROGGS [Tux]: how would you call such a slang... say, in case I just made one up
19:59 bowtie joined #perl6
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20:03 [Tux] FROGGS, I'd go for "banner" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indent_style#Banner_style
20:04 FROGGS hmmm, then I have to rename it :o)
20:04 [Tux] thought that is more about indentation than space-use
20:04 FROGGS https://github.com/FROGGS/p6-Slang-Tuxic
20:04 [Tux] Tuxic is fine too ! :)
20:04 [Tux] FROGS++
20:04 TimToady .oO( Tuxecology :)
20:05 FROGGS *g*
20:05 FROGGS and that is how it works: https://github.com/FROGGS/p6-Slang-Tuxic/blob/master/lib/Slang/Tuxic.pm
20:05 [Tux] and yes, I was aware of the need of parens with if/while
20:05 FROGGS kids: don't try that at home :o)
20:06 FROGGS hmmm, it makes the right choice anyway:
20:06 FROGGS perl6-m -Ilib -e 'use Slang::Tuxic; sub if (Int) {}; if (21) { say "ohh" }'
20:06 FROGGS ohh
20:07 [Tux] how do I install that?
20:07 FROGGS clone it, and then: panda install p6-Slang-Tuxic/
20:07 vendethiel wow :P
20:08 FROGGS I'll add it to the ecosystem, and I hope it does no harm :P
20:08 psch FROGGS++
20:08 psch m: say %*LANG.keys
20:08 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«0␤»
20:09 psch right, those only exist in Perl6::Grammar i think as of now?
20:09 psch iirc the user-facing interface is $~LANG..
20:09 [Tux] AWESOME!
20:09 psch or was it $~MAIN
20:10 FROGGS psch: you get your hands at %*LANG only in an EXPORT, because the Perl6::Grammar calls your EXPORT sub directly
20:10 FROGGS there is no $~LANG yet
20:10 [Tux] "Wilt u meer of minder spaties toestan?" MEER! MEER! "Dan gaan we dat regelen!"
20:10 FROGGS O.o
20:11 FROGGS I understand everything but "minder spaties toestan"
20:11 [Tux] toesta*a*n (I was typing too fast)
20:12 psch FROGGS: i knew about $~LANG etc not existing yet, but i hadn't realized that we can get there via EXPORT
20:12 FROGGS [Tux]: that... does not help at all :o)
20:12 FROGGS psch: that's what v5 does for ages :o)
20:12 [Tux] it is based on some Dutch politician, doing political incorrect statements about Maroccans
20:13 FROGGS ahh
20:13 FROGGS spaties eq species?
20:13 [Tux] spaces
20:14 FROGGS ahh, now I got it
20:15 dalek ecosystem: 22a14d9 | (Tobias Leich)++ | META.list:
20:15 dalek ecosystem: added Slang::Tuxic
20:15 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/22a14d9654
20:15 FROGGS but nice to know that we can hack the Perl 6 grammar that way...
20:15 FROGGS masak: that might be interesting for you too
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20:22 [Tux] ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling test-t.pl
20:22 [Tux] Two terms in a row
20:22 [Tux] at test-t.pl:76
20:22 [Tux] ------>             my $msg = $reason.sprintf ⏏(@args);
20:22 [Tux] expecting any of:
20:22 [Tux] http://www.xs4all.nl/~hmbrand/test-t.pl
20:22 FROGGS ohh
20:22 FROGGS subs only atm... need to look into method calls
20:23 psch m: pi.sprintf("1.5%d").say
20:23 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Too few directives: found 0, fewer than the 1 arguments after the format string␤␤»
20:23 FROGGS that's probably handles by the 'name' token instead of the 'identifier' token
20:24 psch ^^ seems unintuitive
20:24 FROGGS m: pi.sprintf('1.5%d').say
20:24 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Too few directives: found 0, fewer than the 1 arguments after the format string␤␤»
20:24 psch oh, also the directive is clearly out of order.. :)
20:25 psch m: sprintf("%1.5d", pi).say
20:25 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«3␤»
20:25 psch ...right
20:25 psch m: sprintf("%1.5f", pi).say
20:25 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«3.14159␤»
20:25 FROGGS m: say pi.sprintf('1.5%d')
20:25 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Too few directives: found 0, fewer than the 1 arguments after the format string␤␤»
20:25 FROGGS m: say pi.fmt('1.5%d')
20:25 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«1.53␤»
20:26 FROGGS there is no sprintf method, is there?
20:26 psch m: say (~pi).sprintf("%1.5f")
20:26 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Too few directives: found 0, fewer than the 1 arguments after the format string␤␤»
20:26 psch m: Str.^methods.grep("sprintf")
20:26 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: No exception handler located for warn␤   at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:770  (/home/camelia/rakudo-inst-1/languages/perl6/runtime/CORE.setting.moarvm:warn:29)␤ from src/gen/m-CORE.setting:766  (/home/camelia/rakudo-inst-1/languages/perl…»
20:26 psch i'm not thinking good right now it seems...
20:27 psch FROGGS: that's probably it, in any case
20:27 psch i blame map and grep and so on...
20:29 psch they've been misguiding me!
20:30 vendethiel soooo, mysql's MATCH sucks. Wow.
20:32 dalek roast: cd74a7c | TimToady++ | S04-statement-modifiers/for.t:
20:32 dalek roast: ensure that "{$_}" for ... sets correct $_
20:32 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/cd74a7c776
20:39 psch m: "%1.5f".sprintf(pi).say
20:39 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«3.14159␤»
20:39 psch i don't know what to think of that
20:45 FROGGS ahh -.-
20:46 PerlJam m: pi.fmt("%1.5f").say
20:46 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«3.14159␤»
20:46 PerlJam TMTOWTDI!  :)
20:47 psch m: say floor(pi * 50000) / 50000
20:47 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«3.14158␤»
20:47 psch aww
20:48 PerlJam m: say floor(pi * 500000)/ 500000
20:48 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«3.141592␤»
20:49 psch m: say floor(pi * 50000 div 10) / 5000
20:49 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'infix:<div>'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Int:D \a, Int:D \b)␤:(int $a, int $b --> int)␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/o73WG3BfaG:1␤␤»
20:50 psch i don't grok IEEE 754
20:52 raiph joined #perl6
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20:59 psch just to reassure myself: we'll never do 'my $foo = "bar"; sub infix:<<$foo>> { $foo }; say 1 bar 1 # prints "foo\n"', because we can't right?
20:59 PerlJam "can't" is such a strong word ...  ;>
20:59 TimToady compile time can't rely on run time like that
21:00 TimToady that's time travel
21:02 TimToady now if you said, 'constant $foo = "bar";' that's a different story
21:05 Mso150 joined #perl6
21:06 psch there's definitely more thinking to be done how to get all the different sub and token colonpair notations to work
21:07 FROGGS [Tux]: I am trying to implement that tomorrow
21:07 Mso150_o joined #perl6
21:07 FROGGS gnight #perl6
21:07 psch what i have (kinda messily) solves infix:['a'] and infix:['a', 'b'], but doesn't work for token q:sym['q'], to say nothing of the constant bit above...
21:08 psch same from me, g'nite o/
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21:32 masak m: my $foo = 42; constant bar = $foo; say bar
21:32 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
21:33 * masak fantasizes about a sufficiently good IDE that would detect and warn on that kind of situation
21:34 cibs joined #perl6
21:34 PerlJam masak: Maybe Padre could if given some help
21:35 masak mebbe.
21:35 vendethiel masak: Perl6 will be insanely hard for IDEs, btw :P
21:36 masak I can see how that's true for the parsing part, because Perl 6 has a lot of fun with the parse/run barrier.
21:37 masak more fun than Perl 5, in some senses.
21:37 colomon joined #perl6
21:37 masak after having an AST and something PSI-like, I don't see how it's harder than most other languages, though.
21:37 vendethiel Right. But that's not the hard part -- haskell and scala IDEs are pretty good (seen haskforce?)
21:37 raiph joined #perl6
21:37 vendethiel the hard part is macro fun and metamodel fun
21:39 masak granted, those bits are challenging
21:39 * moritz back from a very fine dinner
21:39 arnsholt I imagine Perl 6 IDE will work more or less like Lisp IDE stuff: The editor talks to a running program image in a background process
21:39 vendethiel well, I certainly hope we can get a rakudo-slave for the IDE :)
21:42 user3 joined #perl6
21:43 arnsholt Bah. My clever Python variable handling scheme wasn't clever enough >.<
21:43 user3 left #perl6
21:43 arnsholt Action methods are of course executed inside-out, which breaks it
21:44 masak arnsholt: I've made peace with action methods working that way -- maybe if you provided more information, I could help?
21:45 arnsholt I want to mark free variables (that is, those that are referenced before being assigned to) as such
21:45 arnsholt Doing it in action methods mostly works, but something like the for loop also introduces a binding
21:45 masak oh, right.
21:45 arnsholt And marking the variable as declared in the for loop action is too late
21:45 masak yes, I see the problem.
21:45 arnsholt Easy way out is to add the decl out-of-order in the grammar
21:46 masak I think so, yes.
21:46 masak you probably want to keep a dynamical.
21:46 arnsholt Yeah, already added $*BLOCK
21:46 arnsholt Only sane way to keep track of that
21:47 masak arnsholt++
21:47 * vendethiel agrees
21:47 vendethiel but I made peace with the order as well :-)
21:48 arnsholt Yeah, I'm at peace with the order. I just brainoed and expected things to work the way I needed them to =)
21:48 arnsholt (Something that happens more frequently than I'd like to admit, I guess =)
21:50 kjs_ joined #perl6
21:51 * masak .oO( brain in a way that sticks )
21:52 arnsholt masak: Do you have a recommended category theory introduction, BTW?
21:53 vendethiel arnsholt: "homotopy type theory"
21:53 masak arnsholt: it really started to click for me with http://math.mit.edu/~dspivak/CT4S.pdf
21:53 vendethiel (sorry, I'm kidding, that's a terrible book to start...)
21:54 vendethiel masak: I think I'd start off with set theory
21:54 masak arnsholt: that helped me get further into http://www.amazon.com/Categories-Working-Mathematician-Graduate-Mathematics/dp/0387984038/ -- which I still find dense.
21:54 vendethiel "Algebra chapter 0" by Aluffi is pretty good for a set theory introduction
21:55 * vendethiel doesn't read a lot of programming books, because most of those are costly...
21:55 masak arnsholt: currently, I'm filling in some glaring gaps in group theory, universal algebra, and algebraic topology, all of which help me appreciate category theory better.
21:55 vendethiel masak: you might be interested in this :). https://www.cs.uoregon.edu/research/summerschool/summer12/curriculum.html
21:55 vendethiel https://www.cs.uoregon.edu/research/summerschool/summer14/curriculum.html
21:55 vendethiel http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~fp/courses/15816-f01/handouts.html
21:55 vendethiel http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~cangiuli/talks/hpt-icfp.pdf
21:56 vendethiel Those contain a lot, category theory, logic, and whatever else.
21:56 arnsholt masak: Cheers!
21:56 * vendethiel isn't going through to arnsholt, apparently :/
21:56 arnsholt It's one of those things I suspect I'd be better off knowing
21:56 arnsholt vendethiel: Getting there =)
21:56 vendethiel arnsholt: my links are for you
21:57 arnsholt My set theory is a bit rusty, but mostly adequate I think
21:57 arnsholt I should probably brush up on that too, though
21:57 vendethiel alright. I don't have *any* science-y background whatsoever, so... I just learned stuff on top of stuff, and then later I started reading proper stuff
21:57 vendethiel I have a paper version of Homotopy type theory, but I'm still not reading it yet
21:57 arnsholt Yeah, in that case I can see how set theory doesn't come first
21:58 vendethiel it comes before category theory :)
21:58 arnsholt Oh, wow. A linear logic course. Neat!
21:58 vendethiel yes, a friend of mine linked those to me. You might be interested by answers from #idris and #agda, even maybe #nothaskell
21:59 masak haha, #nothaskell :)
21:59 vendethiel ;-)
21:59 arnsholt Linear logic is yet another thing I should learn more about
21:59 arnsholt One of my master's advisors uses it to compute semantics for natural language
21:59 arnsholt The resource sensitive part of the logic is very useful for that
22:00 arnsholt (Also, having an operator called "lollipop" is pretty neat =D)
22:00 vendethiel yeah, logical frameworks are very interesting. Dependently-typed languages and proof assistants use those to great effect
22:00 vendethiel also, yay for logical frameworks where ¬(¬a) is not a :D
22:00 arnsholt Yeah, I remember those
22:01 arnsholt I took a course on (essentially) strategies for automated theorem proving (in FOL) once. That was pretty neat
22:01 arnsholt Also what made me actually grok how models in FOL work
22:04 timotimo o/
22:04 arnsholt \o
22:05 vendethiel arnsholt: when I hear people say "I took a course on *subject*" I always feel sad :P
22:05 timotimo arnsholt: are you interested in building CUnion support for CStruct?
22:05 PerlJam vendethiel: why?
22:06 vendethiel PerlJam: I never took any courses :)
22:06 PerlJam vendethiel: and that makes you sad?
22:06 vendethiel PerlJam: yes.
22:06 PerlJam vendethiel: so take some courses!  :)
22:06 arnsholt timotimo: It sounds like a reasonable plan, certainly
22:06 vendethiel PerlJam: I can't get in university
22:06 vendethiel s/y$/ies/
22:07 masak 'night, #perl6
22:07 arnsholt g'night masak o/
22:07 colomon \o
22:08 PerlJam vendethiel: there are online courses like from coursera an ocw.mit.edu
22:08 vendethiel PerlJam: yes, I've followed some of those
22:14 * arnsholt heads sleepwards too
22:14 arnsholt Night, night!
22:14 lizmat gnight arnsholt
22:14 lucas_ joined #perl6
22:15 timotimo gnite arnsholt
22:15 lizmat moritz: why is your blogpost not on http://pl6anet.org ?
22:16 vendethiel g'night
22:17 timotimo hmm. what should i do next?
22:17 lucas_ hi
22:17 lucas_ About S15 and S26:
22:18 lucas_ a) convert everything to Perl 6 Pod in the future
22:18 lucas_ b) convert S15 and S26 to Perl 5 POD
22:18 lucas_ c) leave it as is at the moment
22:18 lucas_ Have you are decided?
22:18 lucas_ *already
22:24 * lizmat also calls it a night
22:26 raiph "I'm also curious how this would look in perl6." Anyone want to respond? http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=1105972 (I plan to do so tomorrow if no one else does.)
22:32 telex joined #perl6
22:37 lucas_ I guess I'll just write here my opinion, ok? Yes, I would like to have all the files in the same Perl 5 POD format.
22:37 colomon joined #perl6
22:38 lucas_ I think Perl 6 Pod format experiments could be done in a different repository.
22:38 lucas_ Also, I don't think it's good to right a specification for some format in its own format.
22:39 lucas_ Think about a YAML specification written in... YAML. :)
22:39 lucas_ If something changes, it would have to be applied recursively in the document.
22:40 lucas_ Once in its content, and once in its own format.
22:42 lucas_ So... I would like to convert those files to Perl 5 POD. Will such thing be accepted and merged?
22:43 raiph "2015 will be the year that Perl 6 officially launches for production use." <-- I hate that.
22:44 timotimo we should definitely nominate some random outsider to be our spokesperson
22:45 timotimo since they seem to know everything better than us
22:45 Ulti doing it now
22:45 Ulti :P
22:48 raiph timotimo: ?
22:48 lucas_ *good to write
22:51 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
22:51 lucas_ Well, iff anyone wants to answer me that later, write here and I'll read the logs later. Thanks. Bye.
22:59 tony-o .tell lucas_ pod is for writing documentation, yaml isn't.  that isn't really a good comparison
22:59 yoleaux tony-o: I'll pass your message to lucas_.
22:59 Ulti hmmm I have reputation 0 on PerlMonks not sure anyone can see my posts
23:02 raiph Ulti: Wow, nice answer.
23:04 Ulti it's a good answer because there is enough material floating about for it to be a good answer ;)
23:04 Ulti also because Perl6 has really nice stuff that people still spend pointless amounts of time faffing with in Perl5 whilst trying to avoid deps
23:08 raiph Heh. That's about my all time favorite PerlMonks answer to someone asking something about P6.
23:09 raiph Ulti: You can edit posts. And you can make those text only links clickable.
23:09 Ulti k k
23:10 Ulti also PerlMonks utterly sucks
23:10 baest joined #perl6
23:11 Ulti as in the interface to posting
23:11 Ulti not the content
23:12 Ulti maybe we need PerlEntomologist
23:18 kjs_ joined #perl6
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23:20 rmgk joined #perl6
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