Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-11-07

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 TimToady slurp-rest is good; it shows relationship with slurp while indicating it is a lower-level operation by being longerly huffmanized
00:00 BenGoldberg I'd also suggest an optional parameter, :close-after-eof, which causes slurp-rest to close the handle when it's done.
00:01 TimToady as usual, the presence of a named option is a design smell
00:02 Tekk_ BenGoldberg: why would you need that?
00:02 * BenGoldberg shrugs.  It was just an idea.
00:02 Tekk_ you've already read the whole file
00:02 TimToady let's use language composition, not add options that reinvent things
00:03 TimToady this is not a common enough operation to warrant the mental overhead of another option
00:03 BenGoldberg One might have just read the whole file; however, one might want to seek backwards and re-read parts of the file.
00:04 TimToady or append lines
00:04 BenGoldberg That, too.
00:06 BenGoldberg Or perhaps another program might be appending lines, and you want to read the new lines whenever the file changes size.
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01:00 lizmat sleep&
01:08 leont lizmat: it's one of the first things to get back-ported to CPAN, but IMO it should be core
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01:38 timotimo hey
01:38 timotimo hey folks
01:38 timotimo hey
01:38 leont Did some ground-work for that in Salzburg, didn't quite finish it :-/
01:38 timotimo i made a thing
01:38 timotimo http://t.h8.lv/add_core_op.svg
01:38 timotimo look at my thing
01:38 timotimo like my thing!
01:39 timotimo it's version 1 of my thing
01:43 timotimo next step: connect multiple versions of the same register
01:43 timotimo then: get PHI to appear properly
01:43 timotimo and lastly: figure something out for before/after comparisons
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01:54 raydiak timotimo++ awesome thing!
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02:35 _sri is that serious? https://fosdem.org/2015/schedule/event/get_ready_to_party/
02:37 raydiak 2015 is the officially stated goal, yes
02:37 * _sri faints
02:37 timotimo http://t.h8.lv/add_core_op_with_dataflow.svg
02:39 raydiak perhaps "goal" is a bit strong..."stated likelihood"? :)
02:39 raydiak http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-11-06#i_9622354
02:39 raydiak timotimo: ooh even more awesome
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02:41 japhb timotimo: Why do some nodes have a black successor arrow and others have a grey one?
02:42 * japhb feels like _sri
02:45 japhb (Get ready to party!)++
02:45 timotimo japhb: because i forgot to put the grey in some other places :)
02:45 * japhb guesses that the answer to his previous question is "arrows in and out of exit_* are black, other successors are grey"
02:45 timotimo it's a glorious mess of special cases :D
02:45 japhb Heh
02:45 timotimo also, arrows out from jumping instructions are black as well
02:45 timotimo (which i think i'm going to keep)
02:48 * raydiak added a bin/symbolic script to Math::Symbolic for manipulating equations from the command line
03:04 timotimo http://t.h8.lv/add_core_op_extops_and_dataflow.svg ← now has a limited understanding of how our extops work
03:04 timotimo (it just assumes they all write their first register arg and read all others)
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03:48 ventica 'o' ~ '/'
03:48 ventica camelia: 'o' ~ '/'
03:49 * ventica lost my touch
03:49 timotimo http://t.h8.lv/graph_of_gimme.svg - latest version i've built - this time with a much bigger spesh graph
03:49 raydiak m: say 'o' ~ '/'
03:49 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«o/␤»
03:49 ventica ty raydiak lol
03:49 raydiak yw ventica :)
03:51 ventica masak: Congrats on your GOTO talk... I found it truly awesome!
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04:22 raydiak ugh another precomp bug
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07:47 [Tux] Wow, «rakudobrew build moar» automatically also fetches/updates the modules installed by panda. Less to watch :)
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09:44 Ven o/, #perl6
09:44 Ven looks like that fosdem "announcement" (or "ambiguity") made quite some noise..
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09:55 * moritz sighs
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09:59 yakudza hello
10:00 yakudza Ven, what announcement
10:00 yakudza ?
10:00 nwc10 how is NSA?
10:00 Ven helo yakudza
10:00 Ven yakudza: no announcement, only misreadings :)
10:00 Ulti https://fosdem.org/2015/schedule/event/get_ready_to_party/ this?
10:06 yakudza Very nice. For long time watching at perl6 I cant find use cases for it. Is there any articles where some one describes where perl6 is better that perl5 and maybe some use cases.
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10:09 moritz yakudza: for one thing, parsing is much nicer in Perl 6. See for example https://github.com/moritz/json/blob/master/lib/JSON/Tiny/Grammar.pm for a complete JSON parser in Perl 6
10:09 nwc10 yakudza: perl 6 has proper multi-core concurrency
10:09 moritz yakudza: another thing that Perl 5 is very bad is is concurrency; Perl 6 (at least rakudo on MoarVM and on JVM) are already better here
10:10 nwc10 no ithreads, no GIL, etc
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10:13 moritz also Perl 5 makes it far too easy to mix text and byte strings, causing trouble with encodings to be prevalent
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10:15 yakudza https://github.com/koorchik/formula-evaluation-benchmark
10:16 yakudza Why perl 6 is so slow ? because of startup time ?
10:16 yakudza perl5 version is not optimized there.
10:17 yakudza anyway perl6 takes much more time
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10:26 moritz yakudza: currently list iteration is still very slow
10:26 moritz there's a project under way to fix that
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10:48 FROGGS yakudza: startup time (for rakudo on moarvm) is very good, though as moritz said lists are quite slow, but also string operations
10:48 FROGGS yakudza: lists will be refactored soonish to improve performance
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10:51 azawawi hi everyone
10:51 azawawi how do i delete a key from a hash?
10:52 azawawi %in-stock.delete($name);  # which is mentioned in the Perl 6 book is not working any more
10:52 azawawi and looking at the Hash class documentation does not help also
10:53 moritz azawawi: %in-stock{$name}:delete
10:53 azawawi very confusing
10:54 azawawi the question is why does not the hash class has a remove or delete method to it?
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11:02 lizmat azawawi: it used to have
11:02 lizmat but Perl6 allows something to be both accessible with [] *and {}
11:02 lizmat the term "delete" was ambiguous, as it was used both for [] as well as {}
11:03 lizmat so they got separated into "delete_pos" for [] and "delete_key" for {}
11:04 lizmat so you still *can* do %hash.delete_key('onlyonekey')
11:04 lizmat but that should probably be considered an unspecced rakudo implementation detail
11:04 azawawi i see
11:04 azawawi but it is still confusing :)
11:06 lizmat please note that you can combine adverbs
11:06 lizmat and make them conditional
11:06 lizmat and do it with more than one key
11:06 lizmat %hash<please delete all of these keys>:delete($really)
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11:07 lizmat would only delete if $really were true
11:07 azawawi im working with proc::async to drive the perl6-debug-m process to step in
11:07 azawawi in farabi6, so far it is working well
11:07 lizmat cool, azawawi++
11:07 azawawi now im trying to keep promises from ending :)
11:07 lizmat ?
11:07 azawawi A cool comment # Add a user friendly message to signify the demise of a promise :)
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11:12 dalek rakudo/nom: a0304c3 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (2 files):
11:12 dalek rakudo/nom: Deprecate $handle.slurp -> slurp-rest
11:12 dalek rakudo/nom:
11:12 dalek rakudo/nom: As discussed on IRC between
11:12 dalek rakudo/nom:
11:12 dalek rakudo/nom:   http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-11-06#i_9621920
11:12 dalek rakudo/nom:
11:12 dalek rakudo/nom: and
11:12 dalek rakudo/nom:
11:12 dalek rakudo/nom:   http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-11-07#i_9622383
11:12 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a0304c30be
11:15 lizmat azawawi: when you break a promise, you can state why that is
11:16 lizmat are you saying that somewhere in the bowels of Proc::Async promises are broken with less then user friendly messages?
11:16 azawawi no at all
11:16 lizmat or are you looking something more qmail like, like "Sorry it didn't work out" ?  :-)
11:17 azawawi im working on https://github.com/azawawi/farabi6/issues/16
11:17 azawawi so far step in till end is working as promised :)
11:17 azawawi with async output
11:17 azawawi im building rakudo on feather to demo it :)
11:17 lizmat again, cool!
11:19 azawawi im parsing jnthn++ debugger output and rendering it on the web... until we can figure out a good json format
11:20 azawawi if you think of it... the core debugger should not use ANSI output... it should work as an API for other UIs
11:20 azawawi maybe exchanging JSON packets over a TCP port or something
11:20 azawawi so that stdout and stderr is pristine
11:21 * azawawi installs Panda and friends :)
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11:26 azawawi http://feather.perl6.nl:3030/    # open debug_01.pl and click step in... It is not much but it is a beginning
11:29 * lizmat looks
11:30 azawawi step in takes time like 1 sec
11:30 azawawi because of it is polled on a 1 sec timer
11:30 azawawi because of = because
11:30 azawawi do not try prompt... because it will stall ofcourse
11:31 lizmat how do I open debug_01.pl?
11:32 azawawi alt-o and then type debug_01.pl
11:33 azawawi you can write simple stdout programs and they will work :)
11:33 lizmat did that, and then step in: I only get "debugging finished"
11:33 azawawi older session
11:33 lizmat well, I'm about to go out the door for the rest of the day: see some of London  :-)
11:33 azawawi just refresh :)
11:34 azawawi have fun
11:39 lizmat away&
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12:07 brrt wtf: https://fosdem.org/2015/schedule/event/get_ready_to_party/
12:08 brrt TimToady++ for guts
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12:18 espadrine_ note the first comment of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8571837
12:18 brrt oh.. so it's not really happening?
12:18 brrt TimToady is not speaking as FOSDEM?
12:19 espadrine_ yes he is
12:21 brrt that's good enough for me :-)
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13:18 pmurias vendethiel: the only sensible way I can see Perl 6 being handled by an IDE is reusing the compiler for parsing
13:19 pmurias vendethiel: and one the code is parsed by a real compiler and the BEGIN blocks are executed the metamodel stuff should be that harmfull
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14:15 azawawi hmmm
14:16 azawawi is the step out functionality in perl6-debug not implemented or has a bug?
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14:16 azawawi it is telling me that "im not in a routine" even though im in a sub :)
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14:17 azawawi m: sub sum($a, $b) { my $sum =  $a + $b; return $sum; }; say sum($a, $b);
14:17 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/4w02g7DXEGâ�¤Variable '$a' is not declaredâ�¤at /tmp/4w02g7DXEG:1â�¤------> [32mm =  $a + $b; return $sum; }; say sum($a[33mâ��[31m, $b);[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfixâ�¤Â»
14:17 azawawi m: sub sum($a, $b) { my $sum =  $a + $b; return $sum; }; say sum(1,2);
14:17 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«3␤»
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14:20 azawawi is it a known issue that perl6-debug-m doesnt step out?
14:21 timotimo i wrote that "we should nominate random outsiders to be spokespersons" many hours before i actually saw the fosdem talk abstract
14:21 azawawi timotimo: hi there
14:21 timotimo greetings
14:22 timotimo http://t.h8.lv/add_core_op_extops_and_dataflow.svg ← have you seen this? i'm quite proud of it :)
14:22 azawawi timotimo: i just implemented step out functionality in farabi6... it is buggy but shows you async stdout/stderr...
14:22 azawawi timotimo: debug step in... that is
14:22 timotimo that's very good!
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14:23 azawawi and an answer to your previous question, markText basically marks it for ever... so if you move it... not a big deal... it is basically a CSS class..
14:23 timotimo thought so. that's good!
14:23 azawawi im implementing http://codemirror.net/demo/lint.html atm
14:24 azawawi perl6 async linting (syntax checking)
14:24 timotimo oooooh
14:25 gtodd nice
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14:27 gtodd it would be cool if something like that could work in the regular REPL :-D
14:29 gtodd I'd like to have my REPL flashing red and green as I typed ... as long as it was an option heheh
14:29 timotimo kind of like fish's prompt?
14:29 gtodd oh yeah
14:29 gtodd async perl6critic ....
14:30 gtodd ... "you're not going to type that without a putting a ":" in front of it are you??"
14:31 azawawi well that's doable... :)
14:32 gtodd :-D
14:32 azawawi gtodd: care to add an issue for it https://github.com/azawawi/farabi6/issues ? :)
14:33 gtodd some yak shaving would be involved ... i.e. there is no perl6critic
14:33 gtodd or P6BP :-)
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14:34 timotimo "BP"?
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14:35 PerlJam Best PRactices
14:35 timotimo oh
14:35 timotimo of course
14:35 gtodd Damien's Perl Best Practices
14:36 timotimo PEP6 :P
14:42 moritz gtodd: there's https://github.com/moritz/perl6-wtop
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15:01 gtodd moritz: ++ :-)
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15:07 alexghacker lizmat++ for slurp-rest, tyvm
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15:25 gtodd moritz: I think raiph had some ideas for either a bot or a filter that would automatically create interesting and documented .gists or examples  from this channel ... just by adding tags or .tell-ing the bot to grab a section of text (or maybe marking it for later in the logs?) maybe that would work perl6-WTOP  :-)
15:27 gtodd moritz: WTOP #1 create a WTOP and advertise it on IRC ... (this WTOP will self destruct once the N of WTOP > $somenumber)
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15:28 brrt i should know better than to read hn comment threads too
15:29 moritz gtodd: huh? we have a WTOP
15:32 moritz https://github.com/moritz/perl6-wtop/blob/master/practices.pod
15:32 moritz two, in fact :-)
15:33 gtodd :-D
15:34 gtodd I guess the WTO part is important
15:34 timotimo brrt: they don't call it "hater news" for no reason.
15:34 timotimo brrt: have you seen my svgs? :)
15:34 brrt i have
15:34 brrt very nice
15:35 brrt timotimo++
15:35 timotimo :3
15:35 timotimo something i should add?
15:35 timotimo i was trying to figure out a way to annotate register versions with facts flags
15:35 timotimo without cluttering things too much
15:35 timotimo and i'm not entirely sure what PHI nodes should look like
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15:36 brrt ehm, phi nodes should look like they are the joining of other registers, which is what they are
15:36 brrt i thought they were clear enough
15:37 [Coke] moar non jit failed a few more tests today: 32089 total.
15:38 [Coke] parrot, still clean.
15:38 brrt that looks a bit bad
15:40 colomon how many tests are there total/
15:40 colomon ?
15:40 timotimo i know what phi nodes do
15:40 timotimo i just don't want them to cause a gigantic swarm of arrows between blocks
15:42 brrt i don't think you have a way arround that
15:42 brrt is what i mean
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15:42 brrt i'd expect them to look the way they do :-)
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15:43 timotimo i'd kind of like to have a row of registers at the bottom of each block and one at the top that would then "gather" the arrows for the registers up
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15:43 Ovid oi
15:43 timotimo but the problem with that is that i don't get to see the phi nodes until later
15:43 timotimo hello ovid!
15:43 Ovid Hm, where did “oi” come from?
15:43 Ovid Hello, timotimo.
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15:45 hoelzro maybe shortened from ahoj?
15:45 [Coke] Hey, greybeard.
15:45 moritz m: say 'Ovid'.lc.comb(/<[aeiou]/).join
15:45 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/vOW1YGG4W1â�¤Unable to parse expression in metachar:sym<assert>; couldn't find final '>' â�¤at /tmp/vOW1YGG4W1:1â�¤------> [32msay 'Ovid'.lc.comb(/<[aeiou][33mâ��[31m/).join[0mâ�¤    expecting a…»
15:45 moritz m: say 'Ovid'.lc.comb(/<[aeiou]</).join
15:45 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/ntL730wMkWâ�¤Unable to parse expression in metachar:sym<assert>; couldn't find final '>' â�¤at /tmp/ntL730wMkW:1â�¤------> [32msay 'Ovid'.lc.comb(/<[aeiou][33mâ��[31m</).join[0mâ�¤    expecting …»
15:45 moritz m: say 'Ovid'.lc.comb(/<[aeiou]>/).join
15:45 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«oi␤»
15:46 moritz being able to type sure helps a lot :-)
15:46 brrt hmm i see timotimo
15:46 arnsholt curtispoe: Wikipedia claims "oi" is h-dropped "hoi", which dates at leastd back to Middle English apparently =)
15:47 arnsholt Potentially related to "hei" in Scandinavian, I guess
15:47 arnsholt And English "hi", for that matter
15:47 dalek perl6-roast-data: 43ad309 | coke++ | / (4 files):
15:47 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
15:47 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/43ad309fe5
15:47 curtispoe Heh.
15:50 brrt and dutch 'hoi'
15:51 [Coke] curtispoe, what brings you to #perl6? Anything we can help with?
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15:51 lucas_ hello
15:51 lucas_ is perlcabal down?
15:51 moritz lucas_: nope
15:51 curtispoe I was just curious what people thought about the FOSDEM annoucement. I had known about it, but I thought it was being kept under wraps.
15:52 lucas_ moritz: strange...
15:52 lucas_ must be a local problem here
15:53 [Coke] what FOSDEM announcement?
15:53 moritz lucas_: http://www.isup.me/perlcabal.org
15:54 curtispoe This has been making the rounds on Facebook, Ycombinator, and Reddit: https://fosdem.org/2015/schedule/event/get_ready_to_party/
15:54 [Coke] Huh. someone actually said that?
15:54 curtispoe Well, it has Larry’s name on it :)
15:54 [Coke] I note that it's not attributed.
15:54 [Coke] he's listed as a speaker there.
15:54 brrt i'm excited for one :-)
15:55 curtispoe I’ve never spoken at a conference where the description of my talk wasn’t written by me or approved by me.
15:55 [Coke] It's not like we had a cabal meeting and discussed it. looks to me like whoever wrote that announcement took some liberties.
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15:56 timotimo curtispoe: i only saw someone quote the text (not who it was from) on irc and jokingly said "we should nominate a random person as spokesperson" and people linked to that part of the irc logs, too %)
15:56 [Coke] ok, so it looks like larry took some liberties. seems like a reasonable guess, though.
15:57 [Coke] curtispoe: it'll go faster if you help, though .grab a shovel willya?
15:57 brrt :-)
15:57 curtispoe Veure will go faster if you help. Can you grab a shovel? :)
15:58 curtispoe Believe me, if I had the time, I would dearly, dearly love to do more to help Perl 6 besides writing blog entries.
15:59 colomon curtispoe: I hear you.  :)
15:59 curtispoe (And for those who didn’t get the “Veure” reference: I’m writing a ctext-based MMORPG in Perl http://blogs.perl.org/mt/mt-search.fcgi?blog_id=11&amp;tag=veure&amp;limit=20)
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15:59 brrt nice
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16:00 * moritz has fun with rabbitmq
16:00 curtispoe And it’s a business I’m pouring money into, not just a hobby. Hence, my inability to spend too much free time on other stuff.
16:00 timotimo what is ctext?
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16:07 brrt well, i'll be sure to be there @fosdem :-)
16:09 curtispoe I should be too.
16:09 curtispoe Now I just need to figure the topic I’ll be speaking on.
16:10 brrt how you've become a perl6 convert? :-P
16:10 brrt regards
16:10 brrt left #perl6
16:21 timotimo FROGGS[mobile]: i see a fail for GTK::Simple, but the test stage is kind of not very helpful. it just says "failed tests: 1, 3"; maybe panda could be made to re-run the tests with --verbose when they fail and report the result of that?
16:22 timotimo FROGGS[mobile]: and maybe we could have a different grade for "this thing has no tests at all" rather than just failing
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16:37 colomon timotimo: agreed on "this thing has no tests", though up until recently I had a module that had tests but no actual module!  ;)
16:37 tinyblak_ joined #perl6
16:38 timotimo hah
16:39 colomon ABC module is failing tests, but only when compiled.  :\
16:41 colomon looks like it might be a Rakudo bug?
16:41 colomon line is my $match = ABC::Grammar.parse($test-case, :rule<element>, :actions(ABC::Actions.new));
16:41 colomon error is
16:41 colomon Could not find symbol '&Actions'
16:41 colomon in method <anon> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:13707
16:42 colomon in any find_method_fallback at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:2725
16:42 colomon in any find_method at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:988
16:42 colomon in block <unit> at t/07-stringify.t:35
16:42 timotimo oh, that is not good
16:42 colomon but I've done "use ABC::Actions", which defines the class ABC::Actions
16:42 timotimo hm. how do we debug something like that?
16:42 colomon well, based on the smoke logs it looks like it started three days ago
16:43 colomon that ought to help narrow down what rakudo commit introduced the bug
16:43 timotimo sure, that's good
16:43 timotimo hm, i wonder if you could make emmentaler also report to cpandatesters?
16:44 colomon probably?
16:45 timotimo dunno if emmentaler would accept just changing the panda branch to "report" or what it's called
16:45 timotimo (and setting that environment variable)
16:47 colomon I'll try to remember to give it a try sometime soon.  :)
16:47 timotimo cool, froggs would probably like that :)
16:49 * colomon is having the kind of week where bugs accumulate rather than getting fixed.
16:49 colomon okay, 2b6e9e75cf272934acf42bd046705c515a6e345f is good
16:51 Alina-malina joined #perl6
16:54 liztormato joined #perl6
16:55 timotimo i'm having the kind of week where motivation seem to fluctuate heavily from one moment to the next
16:55 tinyblak joined #perl6
16:55 colomon moar-d2e301e24ad7ed51484a16ed81db81df9f724e66 fails
16:55 liztormato [Coke]: Fwiw, I'm pretty sure Larry wrote that description himself
16:56 timotimo hey liz :)
16:56 [Coke] I wish I could get a week where I could hack on p6 stuff. I suspect I'd be a lot less stressed out. :)
16:56 [Coke] liztormato: I'm kind of pissed that there wasn't a discussion about it.
16:56 [Coke] ah well. c'est le larry.
16:56 liztormato why?
16:57 dalek perl6-bench/stress: 3e2d044 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | minibenchmarks.pl:
16:57 dalek perl6-bench/stress: Fix scaling parameters for divide-and-conquer test
16:57 dalek perl6-bench/stress: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/3e2d044b27
16:57 dalek perl6-bench/stress: fa5cc93 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | / (2 files):
16:57 dalek perl6-bench/stress: Allow better testing of flappy compilers by specifying max failures in a single SCALE before stopping that test for that compiler
16:57 dalek perl6-bench/stress: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/fa5cc93791
16:57 dalek perl6-bench/stress: a876e9a | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | / (2 files):
16:57 dalek perl6-bench/stress: Support timeouts in timeall and bench
16:57 dalek perl6-bench/stress: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/a876e9a2bb
16:57 dalek perl6-bench/stress: fba2e90 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | README.md:
16:57 dalek perl6-bench/stress: Update README.md: Mention quickstress, s/Capture::Tiny/IPC::Run/
16:57 dalek perl6-bench/stress: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/fba2e90b7f
16:57 liztormato People have been giving presentations about Perl 6 for years without community discussion
16:59 liztormato So why can't Larry?
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16:59 [Coke] liztormato: there is a difference between me giving a presentation about cool bits of perl6 or saying "look how much faster we are" and -larry- saying we're shipping by this date.
17:00 timotimo oh
17:00 japhb Speaking of stress, the perl6-bench/stress branch could use a little cross-platform testing, because I had to change a rather finicky bit of platform independence from using Capture::Tiny to IPC::Run.
17:00 timotimo no he isn't saying we'll be shipping by that date
17:01 [Coke] so, two bits. 1) things larry say are going to have an impact outside of our echo chamber. (which they obviously did, see ovid's appearence today), and 2) talk about ship dates is something that we, as a community, should probably be careful of in general.
17:01 [Coke] timotimo: squint, and pretend you're outside the echo chamber. I think you can read it that way.
17:01 timotimo irony of today: a script i had lying around called "gcd_bench" only spends a fraction of time actually calculating gdc and much, much, much, much more time doing a loop over two ranges X'd
17:01 Alina-malina joined #perl6
17:02 timotimo [Coke]: well, yeah, you could if you wanted to ... which is probably what most people outside the echo chamber do want
17:02 japhb The commands to use are `bench stress` and `bench diagnose` after you have built your compilers.  rakudo-moar and rakudo-jvm should be testable.
17:02 timotimo thank you, japhb, i'll try it out :)
17:02 japhb html_plot output doesn't work yet, but all the other outputs should work.
17:03 timotimo japhb: suggest how we should handle moar-jit?
17:03 timotimo because moar is now jit by default :\
17:03 timotimo i used to have a rakudo-moar-jit, now it's gone from the compilers.json because it was just a local patch i had
17:03 japhb Erm, hmmm.  This comes back to your age old request for custom build options.
17:03 japhb *sigh*
17:04 timotimo kind of :\
17:04 liztormato [Coke]: I remember working with Perl 5.0. It was not without bugs. Some people I know are saying we should ship perl 6.0 as it is now.
17:04 timotimo well, it's even more complicated now, because the flag "--enable-jit" is deprecated now (softly) and --disable-jit would upset a configure.pl from way back when
17:04 japhb OK, I recognize that as a key next feature.  However, I want to get the stress branch merged before I deal with that feature (in a new branch, most likely, unless I can find a not-invasive solution I'm happy with.)
17:05 japhb Frankly I want stress merged as a "Welcome Home!" to jnthn.  ;-)
17:06 raiph joined #perl6
17:06 timotimo hm. don't prioritise that too high
17:06 timotimo there's probably more interesting stuff
17:07 japhb Note that the html output has very simple rollover text now, I'd like to extend that.  And --verbose on output matters; it determines whether all 10 runs at a given scale are summarized in one icon, or all shown separately.  Personally, I prefer the latter right now.
17:07 timotimo OK
17:08 japhb Bus stop &
17:09 Tekk_ why does nobody here know how shells work? bus stop & will most certainly not get it to wait for you :)
17:09 anaeem1 joined #perl6
17:09 peteretep What does the shell say?
17:09 Tekk_ [1] 2353
17:09 Tekk_ in my case :P
17:09 timotimo oh wow
17:10 timotimo perl6-bench is *very* unhappy
17:10 Tekk_ and then "command not found: Bus"
17:10 timotimo pages upon pages upon pages upon pages of use of uninitialized value @parts of type Any in string context  in sub MAKE-CLEAN-PARTS at /home/timo/perl6/rakudo/../install/languages/perl6/runtime/CORE.setting.moarvm:1
17:10 Tekk_ that's not good
17:10 liztormato Yuck
17:10 liztormato And probably my fault
17:11 timotimo as well as use of uninitialized value @parts of type Any in string context  in block  at ./bench:256
17:11 timotimo that's in "EXTRACT CHECKOUTS" after "nom already cloned"
17:11 colomon timotimo: okay, commit d2e301e24ad7ed51484a16ed81db81df9f724e66 is the one that breaks ABC
17:12 timotimo ah, bumps the nqp/moar revision
17:12 liztormato I can't do anything about it until much later tody
17:12 timotimo liztormato: s'okay
17:13 timotimo AFK
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17:16 liztormato Aflk for LPW pre-event social
17:16 liztormato left #perl6
17:19 ori left #perl6
17:23 japhb Tekk_: You would prefer '& # Bus stop' instead?  :-)
17:24 japhb timotimo: OK, I've been running benchmarks with a build from a few days ago.  Try running with 2014.10?
17:25 ugator I have installation problems for rakudo under ubuntu (14.04) when I'm not in the rakudo dir, only perl6-p works, perl6-m(==perl6) and perl6-j only work in the dir where they're installed (thx for any help ) I did everything according to the manual (at least I triedt wice^^)
17:26 japhb ugator: Which Rakudo release?
17:27 ugator I downloaded it Nov 6th
17:28 japhb ugator: But are you using Rakudo Star, or a tarball of Rakudo itself, or building using rakudobrew, or building from a raw git clone ...?
17:28 masak howdy, #perl6
17:28 japhb o/ masak
17:29 ugator :D not sure^^, I did:  git clone git://github.com/rakudo/rakudo.git
17:29 TimToady masak: \o and do you know offhand which rt is about the loop vs $_ problem?
17:29 japhb OK, then you should be building straight from head AKA 'nom', ugator
17:29 * TimToady didn't fudge for.t because he didn't know that...
17:30 japhb What configure/make commands did you use, ugator?
17:30 ugator perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot --gen-moar --gen-nqp --backends=moar,parrot,jvm
17:30 ugator make; make install;
17:31 ugator make test suceeds
17:31 neilb joined #perl6
17:31 masak TimToady: hold on -- looking.
17:31 japhb OK, and when you ran them from another directory, did you use a relative or absolute path?
17:32 TimToady it's also possible it's a different bug
17:32 ugator for the $PATH-variable I used absolute paths
17:33 japhb Oh, you ran them as just 'perl6-j' for instance, and trusted $PATH
17:34 ugator it does find the commands
17:34 ugator I just tested to directly use abs/rel paths, doesnt work either
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17:35 japhb ugator: error message?
17:35 masak TimToady: not finding anything concrete. which loop vs $_ problem are we talking about?
17:36 ugator for perl6-m: unhandled exception: failed to load library 'dynext/libperl6_ops_moar.so'
17:36 TimToady last test in S04-statement-modifiers/for.t
17:36 TimToady but someone was mentioning a problem earlier that seemed like it was related, so I thought maybe it had an RT
17:36 TimToady but maybe not
17:37 ugator for perl6-j: Fehler: Hauptklasse perl6 konnte nicht gefunden oder geladen werden, translated: Mainclass perl6 couldn't be found
17:37 japhb Well that's odd
17:37 ugator so I just stick to perl6-p for now^^
17:37 * masak looks
17:38 kjs_ joined #perl6
17:38 masak TimToady: think it's this one: https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=100746
17:39 japhb ugator: what happens if you start from a fresh git clone and *only* build perl6-m?
17:40 ugator ok, I will try that
17:40 * japhb has separate clones for each backend as a side effect of his build scripts, so wouldn't notice if we broke multi-backend builds.
17:46 ugator no it's not about the mult-backend, same error
17:50 azawawi joined #perl6
17:52 alexghacker if I were to write a Bencode module for perl6, should I just name it Bencode or should I put into a namespace?  e.g. Encoding::Bencode
17:52 BenGoldberg Besides being something with a wondeful name, what's Bencode?
17:53 * BenGoldberg grins.
17:53 alexghacker it's a binary data interchange format first used by BitTorrent
17:54 BenGoldberg Putting it in a namespace is a good idea.  Whether Encoding:: or Data:: or something else is best, though, I'm not entirely sure.
17:54 alexghacker I'm looking into it because it's one of the few data interchange formats I've seen where there's only one valid encoding for any given value (which can be arbitrarily complex)
17:54 dalek roast: eee416a | TimToady++ | S04-statement-modifiers/for.t:
17:54 dalek roast: fudge "{$_}" for ...
17:54 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/eee416ad8b
17:54 alexghacker that's a useful property for computing cryptographic hashes of content
17:57 BenGoldberg Unless the main purpose of your module is reading from or writing to streams, Encoding *probably* isn't the right place.
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17:58 azawawi http://pbrd.co/10F1nbM # Perl 6 debugging + Error checking in farabi6 :)
17:59 alexghacker I'm probably going to be exchanging JSON5 messages, then bencoding them only for (the optional) validation of the signatures.
18:01 BenGoldberg I would guess Data::Bencoding is likely the best module name.
18:01 alexghacker BenGoldberg++ thanks.  I'll get started using that.
18:02 alexghacker There should be plenty of time before I've finished for others to chime in.  :)
18:02 anaeem1_ joined #perl6
18:02 BenGoldberg Err, Data::Bencode :)
18:03 alexghacker hmm... I could have sworn that was what you said in the first place...
18:04 azawawi .tell tadzik it would be nice to have bin/script => bin/script.bat in win32 environment. This is one of the things that prevents the inclusion of farabi6 in Task::Star
18:04 yoleaux azawawi: I'll pass your message to tadzik.
18:05 regreg joined #perl6
18:05 regreg what is faster moarvm or parrot?
18:06 dalek roast: bdf4af4 | TimToady++ | S04-statement-modifiers/given.t:
18:06 dalek roast: test scoping of "{$_}" given ...
18:06 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/bdf4af4eab
18:06 BenGoldberg It depends.
18:07 azawawi BenGoldberg: on?
18:07 BenGoldberg Hmm, actually, iirc, moarvm is faster, but parrot is more feature-complete.  But I could be wrong.
18:07 azawawi i think the real question is moarvm vs jvm backend
18:08 azawawi jvm startup is slower but on the long run jvm is gonna be faster for server apps
18:08 regreg i see..
18:08 regreg is the jvm support mature enough to use in a small commercial project?
18:08 BenGoldberg Plus, you could, theoretically, run perl6 in a user's web browser, using jvm.
18:09 Tekk_ BenGoldberg: not so much practically since oracle has disabled jvm plugins by default now
18:09 regreg right
18:09 Tekk_ for the security problems
18:09 FROGGS joined #perl6
18:09 azawawi you mean java applets
18:09 Tekk_ mhm
18:09 BenGoldberg azawawi, yes.
18:09 TimToady moar has fewer fudges than parrot; jvm has the most
18:10 Tekk_ not surprising
18:10 Tekk_ I'm honestly stunned that a perl can run on jvm in the first place
18:10 BenGoldberg . o O (Chocolate fudges?)
18:10 Tekk_ BenGoldberg: it's an english expression, not sure where it comes from
18:10 arnsholt regreg: Potentially viable. Probably depends a lot on what exactly you want to do, though
18:10 Tekk_ little coverups
18:10 Tekk_ like you get a 78 on a test and say you got an 80
18:10 regreg arnsholt a 2d game
18:10 Tekk_ you're fudging your grade
18:11 Tekk_ an american expression in english rather :)
18:11 * azawawi benchmarks farabi6 on jvm... rebuilding rakudo
18:12 FROGGS o/
18:14 FROGGS timotimo: yes, rerunning failed test verbosely would be cool :o)
18:14 colomon +1
18:16 anaeem1_ joined #perl6
18:18 thefence joined #perl6
18:18 * FROGGS is happy
18:19 arnsholt regreg: Hmm. Maybe. You'll probably have to hack on the JVM interop libraries to get full interaction with Java libraries, but it's not a priori impossible I think
18:22 [Coke] anyway, TimToady++ for lighting a fire under our collective butts.
18:23 azawawi FROGGS: Perl 6  debugging now works in farabi6 along with syntax checker gutter hints http://pbrd.co/10F1nbM :)
18:23 FROGGS ohh wow!
18:23 FROGGS azawawi++
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18:24 arnsholt Do we have a tool that takes a .moarvm and dumps the bytecode to something human-readable?
18:24 FROGGS arnsholt: moar
18:24 FROGGS moar --dump foo.moarvm
18:24 arnsholt Yaay!
18:24 arnsholt Cheers!
18:24 FROGGS :D
18:25 azawawi FROGGS: thanks
18:25 FROGGS azawawi: thank you :D
18:25 azawawi http://feather.perl6.nl:3030/   # alt-o and open debug-01.pl or debug-02.pl
18:26 azawawi it is still buggy...
18:26 azawawi but i noticed a strange thing today...
18:26 azawawi step outside a routine seems not to work in perl6-debug-m
18:27 azawawi the "so" command that is
18:27 FROGGS what does it do? nothing?
18:28 guru joined #perl6
18:28 azawawi says it is not in routine lol when in a sub...
18:29 azawawi arnsholt: do you have some documentation for moarvm file format?
18:30 arnsholt I know next to nothing about MoarVM internals, actually
18:30 arnsholt But I'm the dump looks mostly like NQP op names (which makes sense, since the Moar ops are mostly the same as the NQP ops)
18:30 arnsholt s/I'm//
18:31 [Coke] see also #moarvm
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18:36 dalek ecosystem: 9c3baf7 | tony-o++ | META.list:
18:36 dalek ecosystem: Bench[mark] module
18:36 dalek ecosystem:
18:36 dalek ecosystem: More similar to P5's Benchmark, includes cmpthese, timethese, timethis
18:36 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/9c3baf7211
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18:40 pmurias curtispoe: re the production date, a lot of the confusion is a troll misreading the talk summary and posting a mislabeled link
18:44 masak public notice: if you announce a date when Perl 6 will be ready, that attracts trolls. thank you.
18:45 tony-o so, February?  That's what TimToady was personally guaranteeing me yesterday ;)
18:45 TimToady silly dilly, Christmas is not in February
18:45 tony-o haha
18:45 pmurias masak: the guy who posted in on reddit seems to be a dedicated Perl 6 hater
18:46 nine Someone at the LPW tomorrow?
18:46 tony-o trying to figure out how i could take a crack at Perl6::Tidy
18:47 tony-o if i should use the grammar or ..
18:47 pmurias Perl6::Tidy would be awesome
18:47 pmurias tony-o: is there a alternative that isn't batshit crazy?
18:48 tony-o i'm thinking no but i'm not very clear thinking today
18:49 raydiak imo Christmas is whenever Perl 6 is ready regardless of what the calendar says :)
18:50 pmurias using the grammar is the way I thought about doing it
18:50 [Sno] joined #perl6
18:51 tony-o i think it would be a waste to do it another way
18:52 __t3e joined #perl6
18:52 TimToady some great quotes about PR on: http://www.contentfac.com/damn-i-wish-id-said-that-50-of-our-favorite-pr-quotes/
18:53 raiph joined #perl6
18:53 TimToady “There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." – Oscar Wilde
18:54 tony-o i like the S H Simmons quote
18:57 masak pmurias: oh. reddit. then disregard what I said.
18:58 curtispoe pmurias: that’s some of the confusion, but there are other discussions which have seen beyond the mislabeliing.
18:58 curtispoe For example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8571837
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19:11 timotimo i wonder what dreamweapon on HN refers to when saying that perl 6 adds "a lot of visual clutter"
19:12 TimToady probably doesn't like hypers
19:13 TimToady twigils are also arguably additional clutter
19:13 timotimo and this kamaal person goes a long way to say "cool libraries and framework ideas from perl 5 are going to seep into perl 6" and completely fails to mention that perl 6 has inspired a bunch of changes to perl 5, too
19:14 timotimo someone else says "Perl 6 is a modest advance not a revolution", which ... well ... what do i know.
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19:19 timotimo d'oh, someone said "One of the strongest parts of perl, the regular expressions, have received further improvements", someone else retorts with "the regular expressions [...] have been copied to Nimrod (now called "Nim") -- even with native C performance and native Perl syntax"
19:19 timotimo that is missing the point by so many kilometers it's not even funny
19:22 TimToady well, not everyone appreciates Martha Stewart either, "the woman who does everything better than you".  :)
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19:23 vanila hi guys
19:23 vanila perl6 this christmas?
19:24 curtispoe Well, I was specifically referring to the title not being a misunderstanding. There’s still going to be lots and lots of confusion about the language.
19:24 curtispoe And that
19:24 curtispoe And that
19:24 curtispoe And that “modest advance” comment through me off guard too.
19:24 curtispoe s/through/threw/ (and I don’t know where my enter key is)
19:25 TimToady vanila: no, we're still just getting ready to get ready to party this christmas
19:25 timotimo that still sounds like "party this christmas" :P
19:25 TimToady vanila: no, this christmas we're still just getting ready to get ready to party
19:26 TimToady next year we're getting ready to party :)
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19:27 bartolin Hi, #perl6
19:27 TimToady o/
19:28 [Coke] hio
19:30 curtispoe Is there any discussion of work on DBI for Perl 6?
19:32 raydiak I think irrational attitudes are a normal reaction to p6 being ahead of its time, or at least very powerful...makes huge waves relative to the size of its user base...therefore, many more people talking about it than actually experiencing it
19:32 raydiak and from the perspective of knowing about it without having the experience of having used it, parts of it scared the heck out of me too tbh :)
19:33 timotimo raydiak: you're laying it on a bit thick there ;)
19:34 timotimo computers have been able to do what perl6 does for a very long time. it's just you had to use assembler or lisp :P
19:34 raydiak heh
19:34 raydiak hardly equivalent from the perspective of a human being (like programmers, for instance)
19:36 ajr_ Many of the discussions on the Internet appear to have more to do with the participants' internal states than anything objective about the topic of the discussion.
19:37 raydiak I certainly don't mean it'll make your computer magic and make breakfast for you, it'll still only do what they do...but how hard is it to accomplish a given task, for a given individual? that's one of the things I mean when I say "power" wrt a tool
19:37 ajr_ People who are severely wound up internally project the feelings onto some external cause, whether it be political, religious, or technical religion, (computer language, &c.)
19:38 arnsholt curtispoe: There's a DBIish
19:38 kjs_ joined #perl6
19:38 raydiak ajr_: agree 100%, that was kinda my initial point...people are saying things that stretch reason abotu p6 b/c of their feelings about it
19:38 curtispoe arnsholt: I’ve seen it, but real database support is needed.
19:38 arnsholt The DBI namespace is currently unoccipied, as I believe Tim Bunce has been working on an API modelled on JDBC
19:39 ajr_ raydiak - your definition of "power" is very good.
19:39 thefence left #perl6
19:39 curtispoe Night all!
19:40 raydiak thanks ajr_ :) I like to play armchair philosopher once in a while
19:41 timotimo raydiak: can i interest you in improving the html app our profiler emits?
19:43 raydiak timotimo: sure, I'd be happy to lend a hand
19:43 timotimo cool
19:43 raydiak what does it need? what is this thing I'm even talking about?
19:43 timotimo have you seen the data format that moarvm spits out?
19:43 raydiak don't think so
19:43 timotimo http://t.h8.lv/profile-1412458985.39989.html - here's an old-ish one
19:43 timotimo m: say DateTime.new(1412458985.39989)
19:43 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Default constructor for 'DateTime' only takes named arguments␤  in method new at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:926␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/11nQLwMqSU:1␤␤»
19:44 timotimo hum.
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19:44 timotimo that may be a bad example, it seems to be pretty big
19:44 timotimo just run anything with perl6 --profile; should best be quite quick
19:44 raydiak oh wait, yes...I tried this thing on pray
19:44 timotimo good
19:45 timotimo one of the thing i find most sorely missing is getting a list of callees "globally" for a given routine in the routines tab
19:45 timotimo i don't know if the data format we emit can easily offer that, though
19:45 timotimo and if you could figure something out that'd make the app more responsive even if the amount of data is overwhelming, that would be crazy cool
19:46 raydiak no kidding, glad I'm not running my laptop on battery :P
19:46 timotimo also, the exclusive times of routines quite often has a very long tail; it'd be cool if the routines list had some flags at the side saying things like "from here, the rest of exclusive times add up to 30%"/"20%"/"10%" OSLT
19:47 timotimo like, 1/4 of the way down the percentage numbers reach 0%
19:48 timotimo oh and something purely cosmetic: when you view the details of any given allocation thingie, the progress bars quite often extend outside the "pop-up" that comes up
19:48 timotimo i'll be AFK for a bit again now :)
19:48 timotimo ooh
19:48 timotimo but before i go, i shall document something else:
19:48 tinyblak joined #perl6
19:49 timotimo IMO if there's a single call to a routine or something, the red bar basically says "oh no! look at me! all of my executions were not spesh'd and not jitted!", which is kind of uninteresting since it's only called once
19:49 timotimo so i'd love for the red bar to be somewhat desaturated or in a less alarming color in that case
19:49 TimToady maybe you should make it pink
19:50 masak encouraging comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8573337
19:51 [Coke] tim bunce mentioned something years ago; I'm not sure any work on DBI is currently being done.
19:51 timotimo he talked to us about that idea during APW, too
19:51 timotimo o/
19:53 raydiak timotimo: cool, I've made a list from your suggestions, will dig in some time in the next several days \o
19:53 gtodd timotimo: the colours could come from perl6.org  website ... there's a chance for the profiler's HTML to become trend setting ... like Bootstrap  :-)
19:53 gtodd except !Bootstrap ;-)
19:54 [Coke] timotimo: still, haven't seen any code.
19:55 Sqirrel joined #perl6
19:56 masak I can't believe how much constructive discussion is going on in that HN thread. that's very encouraging.
19:57 TimToady most people want to believe
19:58 vendethiel o/ again
20:00 tinyblak_ joined #perl6
20:01 masak ok, then let's please make this one count.
20:01 FROGGS hi vendethiel
20:01 vendethiel masak: I can guess which one... But which one?
20:01 masak vendethiel: 2015 as the Year of Perl 6.
20:01 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
20:01 * vendethiel guessed :)
20:02 rjbs Where's the HN thread?  And, more importantly and first, do I want to read it? :)
20:02 rjbs Oh, found link.
20:02 masak maybe we need to think a little bit more like a business, for once. a business with paying customers.
20:02 masak even though we're not.
20:02 vendethiel .oO( what does carlosdelrey wants us to think )
20:03 vendethiel hahahaha
20:03 masak life is to short to spend on carlosdelrey.
20:03 masak too*
20:04 vendethiel .oO( Mu is too short )
20:04 SevenWolf joined #perl6
20:04 denis_boyun_ joined #perl6
20:05 masak m: subset Too::Short of Mu; say Mu ~~ Too::Short
20:05 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«True␤»
20:05 vendethiel masak: I've been considering perl6 production ready for a few months :P
20:06 masak vendethiel: I've been using it in production for years. get off my lawn. :P
20:06 vanila I wanna part y w ith you all
20:06 vendethiel masak: yera hipster, harry :P
20:06 masak vanila: \o/
20:06 vendethiel vanila: for me, the party's already over, but I'm fine with opening antoher bottle :)
20:06 vanila :D
20:06 masak vanila: you're just in time! apparently, we are just about to release Perl 6! \o/
20:07 vendethiel good thing I was told to keep quiet about this announcement :P
20:07 tony-o im already migrating off of perl6 for production to perl7
20:07 vendethiel oh wow, that looks cool tony-o. keep us in!
20:07 FROGGS does somebody use NativeCall on JVM?
20:08 vendethiel FROGGS: I've used the java-binding feature, but that's not nativecall :P
20:08 masak tony-o: I know for a fact that Perl 7 does not exist yet, because I still haven't designed it together with sorear in our generation ark.
20:08 FROGGS vendethiel: that does not help here :o)
20:08 * vendethiel knows
20:08 tony-o tony-o: production dreams :-)
20:08 tony-o oops
20:08 tony-o masak: ^^
20:09 FROGGS vendethiel: I want to know if my java installation is to blame or if something recentish in rakudo/nqp breaks it
20:09 vendethiel masak: so, what would you think about having a MATCH in the language :P
20:09 vendethiel Story is -- We have a great match feature, called MMD. But, why don't we have it available *outside* of subs?
20:09 masak vendethiel: I like where that thought is going. but would need more detauls.
20:10 masak details*
20:10 vendethiel 1) variable binding 2) variable comparing (mmd doesn't have that) 3) multiple combinations
20:10 vendethiel masak: natefaubion's sparkler (sweet.js macros for pattern matching) show a good idea of how this looks in practice
20:10 vendethiel (that is, having both MMD and a "match" keyword working the same underneath)
20:12 masak ok.
20:12 masak sounds quite interesting.
20:12 masak and occasionally useful.
20:12 * vendethiel thinks sweet.js macros can be very good examples of what good can be done with macros "like that" :-)
20:12 masak if you're also telling me that someone could use this to implement Prolog-like unification in Perl 6, then I'm sold :)
20:13 vendethiel well, most definitely, yes
20:13 vendethiel but you need backtracking.
20:13 masak for unification?
20:13 * vendethiel ... so you need continuations :P
20:13 vendethiel for prolog-like unification at least, yes, you need backtracking
20:13 TimToady or lazy lists of closures
20:14 Ben_Goldberg joined #perl6
20:14 TimToady (that's how STD does it internally)
20:15 vendethiel well, you can always find "another way", that's for sure. I'd say it "doesn't look as good"
20:15 vendethiel (moslty because it's more transparent)
20:15 TimToady transparency cuts both ways :)
20:16 TimToady but yes, it fits more with the FP idea of sweeping all the state off into the part of the implementation you can't easily see
20:18 TimToady Abstraction is a good thing, except when it isn't.
20:18 vendethiel But it's not really an "abstraction"
20:20 cosimo_ hn thread is definitely interesting
20:20 cosimo_ :)
20:20 cosimo_ hello, all :)
20:20 vendethiel helo!
20:20 tinyblak joined #perl6
20:21 Mso150 joined #perl6
20:21 masak m: print "$_o " for <hell cosim>; say "!"
20:21 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/DLrObmZRIFâ�¤Variable '$_o' is not declaredâ�¤at /tmp/DLrObmZRIF:1â�¤------> [32mprint "$_o[33mâ��[31m " for <hell cosim>; say "!"[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfixâ�¤Â»
20:22 masak m: print "{$_}o " for <hell cosim>; say "!"
20:22 cosimo_ i missed all the fun, what happened that triggered this great announcement? :-)
20:22 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«o o !␤»
20:22 vendethiel tss, tss :)
20:22 masak m: print "$($_)o " for <hell cosim>; say "!"
20:22 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«hello cosimo !␤»
20:22 * masak grumbles
20:22 * vendethiel never knows when to use $() vs {}
20:23 cosimo_ masak: hi Carl
20:23 TimToady vendethiel: the first one is supposed to work, but doesn't yet
20:23 vendethiel ohhh. my bad :-)
20:23 psch joined #perl6
20:23 psch hi #perl6
20:24 masak hi psch!
20:24 FROGGS hi psch
20:24 TimToady everyone's dropping in today for some reason :)
20:24 psch masak, FROGGS o/
20:24 FROGGS *g*
20:24 cosimo_ TimToady: for some definition of "some"
20:24 FROGGS TimToady++ # bringing us together
20:25 TimToady quick, barricade the doors
20:25 FROGGS |\o\
20:25 cosimo_ in my defense, I've always been here, just very quiet :)
20:25 denis_boyun_ joined #perl6
20:26 raydiak wait you're not making us drink the kool-aid yet are you?
20:26 FROGGS cosimo_: I've got work for you :P  https://github.com/cosimo/perl6-digest-md5/pull/7
20:27 FROGGS cosimo_: hopefully it will turn green then: http://testers.perl6.org/dist/Digest::MD5
20:27 tony-o can i include Perl6::Grammar somehow or do I need to copy it and actually make it a module, i'm assuming that .msi and future precompiled versions will be available and that the src stuff isn't going to be available everywhere
20:28 vendethiel "one of us, one of us" or something
20:28 FROGGS tony-o: the problem with the Perl6::Grammar in rakudo is that it is an nqp module
20:29 psch $~MAIN should be Perl6::Grammar i think? i.e. getting to Perl6::Grammar is still NYI
20:29 psch tony-o: ^
20:29 FROGGS correct, we have a language barrier here
20:30 tony-o i see, it will eventually be there or should i just port the grammar?
20:30 psch tony-o: well, if youre porting it you might as well stuff it into $~MAIN... :)
20:31 psch although that might be wonky wrt keeping them synced
20:31 FROGGS it will be available at some point, but that won't happen in the next 6+ months I guess
20:31 TimToady for now I'd just port it; we originally were hoping to become fully bootstrapped, but it's easier to port nqp than full Perl 6, so it's a useful breakage to have the current Perl 6 in nqp
20:31 cosimo_ FROGGS: thanks for bringing it up, and sorry for being very sloppy. Had very little time for spare time programming lately
20:31 FROGGS cosimo_: np
20:31 tony-o okay
20:31 cosimo_ there is a perl6 testers? OMG
20:31 FROGGS cosimo_: but I'd also take a commit bit in exchange :o)
20:32 tony-o psch: not sure what $~MAIN is
20:32 FROGGS cosimo_: since a few days, aye
20:33 TimToady it's short for %*LANG<MAIN> in the parser, which contains the current top-level language at any point
20:33 TimToady whenever you derive a new language during the parse, that goes into %*LANG for the remainder of the current lexical scope
20:35 psch http://perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html#Slangs some more context
20:37 tony-o ahh gotcha
20:37 alexghacker Does anyone know if specifying the normal form in Str.encode not yet fully implemented?
20:38 alexghacker I'm getting the same buffer contents no matter what values I send in for nf
20:39 FROGGS alexghacker: :nf was specced this year IIRC and is not yet implemented, aye
20:39 alexghacker FROGGS++ thanks
20:40 PerlJam alexghacker: also, https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/src/core/Str.pm#L1035
20:40 PerlJam S02:Slangs  # test
20:40 kjs_ joined #perl6
20:41 FROGGS S02/Slangs
20:41 FROGGS S02#Slangs
20:41 FROGGS :/
20:41 PerlJam if someone would merge my last PR to the bot,  S02:Slangs would work
20:42 FROGGS I have no rights to do so :o(
20:43 cosimo_ FROGGS: got you commit bit on p6-digest-md5, and moritz too
20:43 FROGGS cosimo_: thank you! :D
20:45 FROGGS hah, moritz++ almost made the same PR
20:47 alexghacker 2nd question: should I expect «$b = "abc".encode; say [~] $b.bytes, ':', $b» to consume all available memory and CPU (hint: it does for me)
20:48 FROGGS alexghacker: no, it should not
20:48 tinyblak joined #perl6
20:48 FROGGS alexghacker: though that happens right now when you concat a buf to something else
20:49 alexghacker ah, so known issue at least
20:49 FROGGS concating bufs works, you just cannot mix...
20:49 FROGGS yes, had no time yet to fix or even analyze it :o(
20:50 FROGGS right now I am bisecting a problem with NativeCall on the JVM... which is also very important, because many modules depend on NativeCall
20:53 arnsholt FROGGS: What kind of problem?
20:53 tony-o FROGGS: i can test nativecall on jvm now that i'm home
20:53 FROGGS nqp::nativecallbuild explodes
20:54 arnsholt Oh. That's no good
20:54 arnsholt What kind of explosion?
20:54 FROGGS because the first arg is not recognized as a NativeCallInstance and explodes when trying to unbox it
20:54 arnsholt Segfault or JVM?
20:54 alexghacker FROGGS++ don't worry too much, there are other ways I can accomplish the same thing.  This is https://rt.perl.org/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=122600 , yes?
20:54 FROGGS no, just an exception
20:54 FROGGS alexghacker: yes
20:54 arnsholt Hmm. Strange
20:54 alexghacker I'll just document my work-around as being tied to that ticket
20:55 FROGGS arnsholt: the problem was introduced between Aug 1st and Sep 5th or so
20:56 FROGGS alexghacker: I bet it is not even hard to fix... it might be something silly
20:56 arnsholt Right. Potentially, something dealing with P6Opaque
20:56 alexghacker «($b.bytes, ':', $b).join('') works just as well for now
20:57 Mso150 joined #perl6
20:57 arnsholt IIRC there're some shenanigans that deal with how the NativeCallInstance is inlined into the P6Opaque
20:57 * alexghacker sighs about his dangling »
20:57 FROGGS arnsholt: I still keep on bisecting... because I dunno where to start looking
20:57 arnsholt Sounds like a good plan
20:58 arnsholt Incidentally, this is why I'd like to find a way to move NAtiveCall into the Rakudo NQP or repo. It's way too tied to the internals
20:58 FROGGS yeah, just takes its time
20:59 FROGGS ohh yes, you get my +1 for that
20:59 PerlJam arnsholt++
20:59 PerlJam (er, +1 from me too :)
21:00 arnsholt Main problem ATM, I think, is that the NativeCall test suite is a bit annoying and not very portable
21:01 vendethiel *g*
21:01 FROGGS but the idea was that it should be portable, no? :o)
21:04 arnsholt The code is (mostly) good
21:04 arnsholt But compiling the C part of the tests is a bit finnicky
21:05 Mso150_d joined #perl6
21:08 colomon +1 to NativeCall in core
21:10 kurahaupo joined #perl6
21:15 vendethiel oh, carlos. http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2llk74/larry_wall_retracts_perl6_release_date_says/ <3
21:19 tinyblak joined #perl6
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21:23 Ven joined #perl6
21:24 masak carlosdelray must be Perl 6's most reluctant bug fan, ever.
21:24 masak big*
21:25 FROGGS I still wonder if he is/was also educated_poo
21:25 espadrine_ joined #perl6
21:25 masak it's like he simply cannot stop paying attention -- but he's fighting it at every step.
21:25 masak frankly, I don't care what kind of poo he is.
21:25 FROGGS hehe
21:27 masak I'm just wishing him well, and thanking him for all the abject bile he spills over Perl 6, hopefully making people think a bit for themselves.
21:27 leont joined #perl6
21:29 vendethiel :-)
21:29 [Sno] joined #perl6
21:29 guru joined #perl6
21:29 masak and now I'm hoping we can talk about something that matters instead.
21:31 vendethiel masak: bijections are just injections that happen to be interjections as well!
21:31 vendethiel sur
21:33 FROGGS masak: have you seen that btw? https://github.com/FROGGS/p6-Slang-Tuxic
21:33 FROGGS masak: in case you want to mess with the Perl6::Grammar and inject/replace stuff
21:38 masak vendethiel: that is true, but in no way noteworthy. :)
21:38 masak FROGGS: oooh!
21:38 vendethiel masak: oh, I thought it could matter :P
21:38 FROGGS hmmm, chdir is broken on windows... chdir 'C:\panda' fails while chdir 'C:/panda' is working
21:39 masak FROGGS++ # for Tuxifying Perl 6 in a slang!
21:39 PerlJam vendethiel: it might make a nice schoolhouse rock type song  ;)
21:39 vendethiel could it :P
21:42 masak FROGGS: any plans for making it also work for methods?
21:45 FROGGS masak: yes, will look into that tomorrow (evening)
21:45 masak ++FROGGS
21:45 FROGGS that's the bug I am facing:
21:45 FROGGS C:\panda>perl6 -e "say MAKE-ABSOLUTE-PATH('C:\panda',$*CWD)"
21:45 FROGGS C:\panda\panda
21:46 psch m: say MAKE-ABSOLUTE-PATH(%*ENV<HOME>, $*CWD)
21:46 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/fCqIM0ICj7â�¤Undeclared name:â�¤    MAKE-ABSOLUTE-PATH used at line 1â�¤â�¤Â»
21:47 Diederich-away joined #perl6
21:47 Mso150_d joined #perl6
21:47 FROGGS psch: camelia here is from october 22nd
21:48 psch FROGGS: yeah, i ran it locally and it looks fine on linux
21:48 tinyblak joined #perl6
21:49 FROGGS yes, because it checks for forward slash only
21:52 Mso150_d_y joined #perl6
21:56 skarn joined #perl6
21:57 moritz ok, manually triggering a rakudo rebuild on camelia
21:58 FROGGS moritz++
21:59 moritz now I wonder why the cron jobs don't work :(
22:02 alexghacker is there a way to make reduction operators hyper?  e.g. to individually sum up lists inside of a list?  I tried «[+] << $list-of-lists» and it's clear that the parser and I are on completely different pages.
22:03 psch m: say [[1, 2], [3, 4]]>>.map(&[+])
22:03 camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«3 7␤»
22:03 psch alexghacker: if you know your dimension that's it
22:04 alexghacker psch++ I'll accept that
22:09 hoelzro https://github.com/github/linguist/issues/1682#issuecomment-62165770
22:09 hoelzro "We are actually moving away from pygments and using TextMate/SublimeText/Atom syntax bundles instead"
22:09 hoelzro ='(
22:12 FROGGS :o(
22:12 telex joined #perl6
22:13 mirjam joined #perl6
22:14 [Coke] hoelzro: that sucks. :|
22:14 hoelzro yeah, I know!
22:15 hoelzro oh well, I might just make a textmate "port" of my highlighter
22:15 hoelzro tbf, it might do a better job than pygments did
22:15 FROGGS hoelzro: please tell me if you need any help then
22:15 hoelzro FROGGS: are you a TM/ST/Atom user?
22:16 FROGGS hoelzro: no
22:16 hoelzro oh, just pitching in then =)
22:16 hoelzro thanks
22:16 hoelzro I'll let you know
22:16 hoelzro I built up a little pile of tuits for perl6/syntax
22:16 hoelzro so I think I might be spending them tonight/tomorrow
22:16 FROGGS arnsholt: funnily, now after bisecting for hours, I remember the workaround >.<
22:17 FROGGS ohh, cool :o)
22:18 FROGGS arnsholt: it is even still open in my browser https://gist.github.com/FROGGS/0d4b5c771c7d9eb4f5b6
22:19 tinyblak joined #perl6
22:19 ugator diff perl6 ./install/bin/perl6 in rakudo gives me different lib paths. Why is the libpath for the perl6 in the main dir just "." and not the absolute path? (like in ./install/bin/perl6)
22:20 alexghacker psch, I'm not sure that actually does the reduce properly
22:20 alexghacker m: say [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]]>>.map(&[+])
22:20 camelia rakudo-moar a0304c: OUTPUT«3 3 9 6 15 9␤»
22:20 alexghacker I think that should give «6 15 24»
22:21 psch alexghacker: right, apparently i generalized wrongly.  &[+] is still 2-ary
22:21 psch m: say [[1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6], [7, 8, 9]]>>.map([+] *)
22:21 camelia rakudo-moar a0304c: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'Numeric'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U \v: *%_)␤  in sub infix:<+> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4492␤  in sub  at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:19556␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/Pf4LTSobKq:1␤␤»
22:22 psch m: say [[1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6], [7, 8, 9]].map([+] *)
22:22 camelia rakudo-moar a0304c: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'Numeric'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U \v: *%_)␤  in sub infix:<+> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4492␤  in sub  at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:19556␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/AKCCteSMW9:1␤␤»
22:22 psch m: say [[1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6], [7, 8, 9]].map({ [+] @^a }) # this works
22:22 camelia rakudo-moar a0304c: OUTPUT«6 15 24␤»
22:23 psch oooh
22:23 psch m: say [[1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6], [7, 8, 9]].map([+] ** ) # this too?
22:23 camelia rakudo-moar a0304c: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'Numeric'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U \v: *%_)␤  in sub infix:<+> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4492␤  in sub  at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:19556␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/szkzcsbLdI:1␤␤»
22:23 psch aw shucks
22:23 psch Mouq++ didn't finish HyperWhatever :)
22:23 masak heh, `[+] *` is one attempted use of WhateverCode I would not have come up with myself.
22:23 psch masak: with ** it should work i think
22:24 FROGGS ugator: the perl6 script in your build directory is just something is meant to work exactly in that dir, so . is enough
22:24 psch but maybe i have a wrong model of HyperWhatever
22:24 ugator so that one is not to be accessed from outside? ok,that wasnt clear^^
22:25 FROGGS ugator: exactly
22:25 FROGGS ugator: only the one in install/bin should be used from elsewhere
22:28 ugator_ joined #perl6
22:28 psch hm, actually i'm most likely wrong.  HyperWhatever stills builds a WhateverCode but does something flatten-y to its arguments..?
22:30 psch m: say (** - 1)(1, 2, 3)
22:30 camelia rakudo-moar a0304c: OUTPUT«0 1 2␤»
22:31 psch m: say (** + *)(1, 2, 3)
22:31 camelia rakudo-moar a0304c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/UmMNA5h3hJâ�¤Multiple HyperWhatevers and Whatevers may not be used togetherâ�¤at /tmp/UmMNA5h3hJ:1â�¤------> [32msay (** + *[33mâ��[31m)(1, 2, 3)[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfixâ�¤Â»
22:33 tinyblak joined #perl6
22:33 kjs_ joined #perl6
22:36 dalek rakudo/nom: a3d18ca | (Tobias Leich)++ | tools/build/Makefile- (3 files):
22:36 dalek rakudo/nom: allow fudging of src/Perl6/Actions.nqp
22:36 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a3d18ca8e6
22:39 psch maybe i'm not wrong about HyperWhatever...
22:39 psch m: say (**.[0])([1, 2], [3, 4])
22:39 camelia rakudo-moar a0304c: OUTPUT«1 3␤»
22:39 masak ...fudging of Actions.nqp...?
22:40 psch it's too late to think about this, actually o/
22:40 * psch goes to sleep
22:40 FROGGS masak: for a single line workaround for the jvm
22:42 masak FROGGS: one that we expect to go away as soon as possible?
22:42 dalek rakudo/nom: 393acf0 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/Perl6/Actions.nqp:
22:42 dalek rakudo/nom: unbreak NativeCall for the JVM
22:42 dalek rakudo/nom:
22:42 dalek rakudo/nom: The call to nqp::buildnativecall fails because it does not recognize the first arg as
22:42 dalek rakudo/nom: an NativeCallInstance. Doing the clone always like before e167669a498b91543144c7657e5cdb8d0cb40e65
22:42 dalek rakudo/nom: makes it work, see also: https://gist.github.com/FROGGS/0d4b5c771c7d9eb4f5b6
22:42 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/393acf095d
22:43 FROGGS masak: as soon as jnthn or something like that
22:44 FROGGS I don't like it either but it is now broken for about two months
22:49 kurahaupo joined #perl6
22:50 kurahaupo left #perl6
23:08 * masak has a new least favorite SQLite error code: SQLITE_ERROR
23:08 FROGGS joined #perl6
23:11 Diederich masak: thanks for the notice, Re: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8573337
23:12 masak Diederich: well, thank you for your patience.
23:12 Diederich hah!
23:12 Diederich what makes you think I've been patient :)
23:13 masak :P
23:13 Diederich mostly I feel bad that I haven't been able to take time to contribute to P6
23:13 Diederich I've always been so blessed with the ability to do very creative and innovative work at work,
23:13 masak no need to feel bad -- even writing stuff on HN is a contribution.
23:14 Diederich that I have little 'creative energy' left after :)
23:14 masak sometimes it's nice for some of us to see that there are people out there who care.
23:14 Diederich I have been creating more P5 CPAN modules at home, and then using them extensively at work :)
23:14 masak that's excellent.
23:14 Diederich when I taught Perl,
23:15 Diederich I actually had my students read and do a brief writeup of one of Larry's talks
23:15 Diederich specifically, Perl, the first postmodern computer language...really changed my personal outlook
23:15 panic____ joined #perl6
23:15 masak :)
23:15 Diederich so Perl has resonated with me more and more deeply over the years.
23:16 masak I guess Perl 6 is post-post-modern...
23:16 Diederich as I was getting ready to leave my last job, I learned Ruby and Python (again...for each) and ported some of my CPAN modules tothem
23:16 Diederich assuming that there was No Way I was going to get another Perl job in 'The Valley'
23:16 Diederich but here I am, once again, in a very heavy Perl shop.  go figure
23:17 Diederich and we have a real need to run a 'scripting language' inside of our big Java apps, so in 2015, I plan on pushing Perl 6 into that role here
23:17 masak woot
23:17 masak all I can say is, please stay in touch
23:17 Diederich while I have your attention, I was wondering if SystemV IPC was implemented/available in P6?
23:17 masak we're happy to ease that journey in any way we can.
23:18 masak I know nothing about SystemV IPC, unfortunately.
23:18 Diederich that's always been the basis for the systems I develop
23:18 Diederich uh
23:18 Diederich message queues
23:18 masak I haven't *heard* anyone working on it, but that doesn't mean no-one has.
23:18 Diederich well,
23:18 Diederich it's C functions
23:18 Diederich so as I understand it,
23:18 Diederich one can call native C functions from Rakudo JVM n ow?
23:19 masak yes.
23:19 Diederich cool
23:19 Diederich and Moar?
23:19 Diederich I need to look into making those bindings then
23:19 vendethiel you can :)
23:20 Diederich specifically, https://metacpan.org/source/IPC::Msg
23:20 Diederich more specifically, for example, https://metacpan.org/source/IPC::Msg#L97
23:20 Diederich P5 has those 'bindings' natively
23:21 Diederich http://linux.die.net/man/2/msgrcv
23:21 adu joined #perl6
23:21 timotimo o/
23:21 timotimo wow, so much backlog tonight
23:22 Diederich unrelated, I'm sure, to The Big Posting :)
23:22 vendethiel *g*
23:22 vendethiel or the thought-to-be one
23:22 TimToady http://www.bmsi.com/java/posix/ might also be of some help
23:22 Diederich indeed
23:23 Diederich TimToady++ indeed, thank you
23:26 jdv79 is that fosdem talk summary misleading or is xmas '15 really it?
23:26 Alina-malina joined #perl6
23:34 FROGGS joined #perl6
23:35 leont Diederich: you're the first person I've ever heard use SysV message queues in production! :-o
23:35 leont POSIX message queues really are a nicer interface though
23:37 Diederich leont: I have kept my eye on POSIX queues since 'the beginning'.  The big delta is thread safety, but I never ever write threaded code :)
23:38 Diederich thank you
23:39 xiaomiao joined #perl6
23:41 Tekk_ Diederich: imo it's better to use processes and ipc unless you're on windows
23:41 Tekk_ so the parallelism in most languages works fine for me :)
23:42 leont The difference is bigger for semaphores and shared memory IMO, because those are kind of crazy in SysV.
23:42 timotimo it's always super frustrating to read backlog and know the answer to some people's questions and they leave in the mean time >_<
23:43 Diederich leont: definitely.
23:43 timotimo m: say [[1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6], [7, 8, 9]].map(&[[+]])
23:43 camelia rakudo-moar a0304c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/lw5aG29PvTâ�¤Variable '&infix:<[+]>' is not declaredâ�¤at /tmp/lw5aG29PvT:1â�¤------> [32m 2, 3], [4, 5, 6], [7, 8, 9]].map(&[[+]][33mâ��[31m)[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfixâ�¤Â»
23:43 timotimo m: say [[+]] [[1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6], [7, 8, 9]]
23:43 camelia rakudo-moar a0304c: OUTPUT«3␤»
23:43 timotimo oops :3
23:44 timotimo m: say [+]«[[1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6], [7, 8, 9]]
23:44 camelia rakudo-moar a0304c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/TfhvWt3MQ6â�¤Unable to parse quote-words subscript; couldn't find right double-angle quoteâ�¤at /tmp/TfhvWt3MQ6:1â�¤------> [32may [+]«[[1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6], [7, 8, 9]][33mâ��[31m<EOL>[0mâ�¤   …»
23:44 timotimo m: say Z[+] [[1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6], [7, 8, 9]]
23:44 camelia rakudo-moar a0304c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/lwtIXp5dnQ�Preceding context expects a term, but found infix + instead�at /tmp/lwtIXp5dnQ:1�------> [32msay Z[+[33m�[31m] [[1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6], [7, 8, 9]][0m�»
23:44 timotimo mhm
23:44 Diederich leont: 'back in the day', I initially developed what would become IPC::Transit using shared memory and semaphores, but they had all kinds of platform specific problems.  message queues worked everywhere (in 'UNIX' land)
23:45 timotimo alexghacker: the concatenation of bufs with strings is broken because Buf does the Stringy role *and* coercing it to Stringy just calls .Stringy on self
23:45 timotimo so the Stringy method on a buf will call Stringy on self, which will call Stringy on self which will call Stringy on self et cetera ad finitum
23:45 Diederich ouch
23:46 timotimo i once tried to find a good fix to that. nobody tuned in to the discussion :(
23:47 FROGGS joined #perl6
23:48 timotimo FROGGS: can we get tooltip texts for the bars on perl6testers that tell not only which backend that is, but also how many passes/fails it has?
23:50 leont Shared memory and semaphores can be really powerful (and fast), but it tricky to get right :-/
23:51 Diederich leont: yup. but I was dealing with some serious bugs in the way semaphores worked on HPUX 9.x at the time :( sank the ship
23:52 virtualsue joined #perl6
23:54 timotimo Diederich: with NativeCall you can access Sys5 IPC
23:54 woolfy joined #perl6
23:54 Diederich timotimo: that's actually what I was thinking, but I haven't worked on it yet.
23:55 Diederich timotimo: are there any good docs/examples with NativeCall available now?
23:55 dalek roast: 1dae23b | TimToady++ | S02-lexical-conventions/comments.t:
23:55 dalek roast: comments do NOT nest, but brackets do
23:55 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/1dae23b19a
23:55 timotimo should be interesting :)
23:55 timotimo we have a few examples
23:55 timotimo why don't we have something like "search for things that depend on X"?
23:55 timotimo https://github.com/timo/cairo-p6/ - a not too bad binding to cairo with NativeCall
23:56 timotimo https://github.com/perl6/gtk-simple/ - a mostly acceptable binding to GTK3 with NativeCall
23:57 Diederich thanks so much
23:58 lizmat joined #perl6
23:58 timotimo you're so welcome :)
23:58 Diederich and thank you all, once again!
23:58 timotimo ( i'm just blatantly promoting my own work :P )
23:59 FROGGS joined #perl6
23:59 masak timotimo++

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