Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-12-10

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:06 raydiak hah ab5tract++
00:07 jercos gotta turn my monitor upside down for it to work though :p
00:08 raydiak nah just yer head :)
00:11 rjbs TimToady: How did "bless" come to be called "bless"?
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00:23 * raydiak guesses it has to do with how it anoints a referant into a class in p5
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00:40 dalek rakudo/nom: c91a583 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | src/core/Temporal.pm:
00:40 dalek rakudo/nom: Loosen Date.new(DateTime) to Date.new(Dateish) to simplify subclasses
00:40 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c91a58332a
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03:41 dalek specs: 09480dd | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S99-glossary.pod:
03:41 dalek specs: Document closure parameters in S99
03:41 dalek specs:
03:41 dalek specs: I found the naming of closure parameters versus subsignatures
03:41 dalek specs: confusing, so I thought I would clarify in S99
03:41 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/09480dd119
03:41 dalek specs: 7f6282f | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S99-glossary.pod:
03:41 dalek specs: Add a glossary entry for subsignatures
03:41 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/7f6282f54d
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07:31 lokendra hi
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07:32 lokendra need to know the start for for perl
07:36 Timbus what do you need to know the start for for for
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08:26 lokendra yes timbus
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08:34 Timbus i fear we may have a small language barrier here, lokendra. :) could you ask your question differently?
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08:42 mathw morning
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08:46 lokendra i want to help, what can I do
08:50 JimmyZ_ describe where is your pain :)
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09:53 masak good antenoon, #perl6
09:54 arnsholt o/
09:54 JimmyZ_ \o
09:54 mathw o/
09:54 * mathw would rather be writing Perl 6
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10:00 mathw (okay I admit it, I'd also rather be writing some sort of Lisp, or Haskell, or learning PureScript, but there's exciting things going on in Perl 6 world on my hard drive)
10:03 arnsholt What are you stuck writing?
10:03 masak lokendra: hi. if you're new to Perl 6, there are people here who can get you started. if you want to contribute, we can help with that too. :)
10:03 mathw arnsholt: I'm not writing anything at all, I'm triaging support requests :(
10:04 arnsholt Ow. Even worse than PHP (probably)
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10:08 mathw well... I'm not entirely sure about that.
10:09 mathw I do have very strong feelings about PHP
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10:13 Ven moritz++ # p6advent
10:13 Ven on the topic of reactive stuff: https://github.com/kriskowal/gtor
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10:19 mathw So happy to see reactive programming getting more and more traction
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10:20 brrt \o #perl6
10:20 brrt fwiw I had an idea for what to do on the perl6 advent calendar
10:20 Ven o/ brrt
10:21 brrt basically, would it be fun to do a post 'see how the moarvm jit works for YOU'
10:23 Ven very much :-)
10:23 brrt ok, then that's what i'll do
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10:34 mathw I'm preparing a talk for Nottingham.pm's next tech night called "What do you mean you can't do $x in Perl 6?"
10:34 mathw Naturally this involves writing presentation-assisting tools in Perl 6
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10:40 brrt :-)
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11:03 masak mathw++ :)
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11:07 mathw we shall see how it goes, but the regulars are interested in hearing it
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12:08 masak "Lisp in Small Pieces" has arrived! \o/
12:09 masak its chapter 9 is called "Macros: their use and abuse" :P
12:10 masak mathw: http://www.purescript.org/ looks interesting.
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12:17 masak the tone in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8724727 is uplifting.
12:17 masak though I also note that people can't tell terms from operators, and apparently "more readable" means "I've spent a lot of time reading this language, so I can read it more easily".
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13:38 sergot hello o/
13:38 sergot What trick was there with 42 in Perl 6?
13:38 sergot I forgot it
13:38 tadzik a trick with 42?
13:40 mathw masak: it always does. See also 'intuitive'
13:40 mathw people say Python is unintuitive because they're used to curly braces and find the idea of significant whitespace to be abhorrent. Despite that they probably follow similar unenforced rules just to make their code readable...
13:40 sergot tadzik: "the meaning of life"
13:41 sergot I barely remember this
13:41 FROGGS m: say 42.WHY
13:41 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
13:41 tadzik :D
13:41 FROGGS hmmm
13:41 FROGGS I though that would do
13:41 tadzik sergot: I didn't know there is something specific about it in p6
13:41 geekosaur m: say 42.WHAT
13:41 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
13:41 geekosaur mrrr, what was it
13:42 tadzik found it
13:42 tadzik but I cheated
13:42 tadzik m: "Life, the Universe, and Everything".WHY.say
13:42 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«42␤»
13:42 FROGGS ahh
13:42 FROGGS :o)
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13:42 sergot tadzik++
13:42 geekosaur yeh, had a feeling it was the other way around but my log greps aren't spotting it, sigh
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13:43 Rounin Haha
13:43 tgt 42.WHY worked in April, but broke at some point.
13:44 sergot It was cool :)
13:44 tgt http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2014-04-26#i_8642372
13:45 masak it used to be the other way around.
13:45 masak this way makes a bit more sense, though. as "42" is the answer, not the question.
13:45 brrt` m: say 32.WHY
13:45 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
13:45 geekosaur that was why I tried .WHAT
13:46 brrt` m: "Life, the Universe, and Everything".WHY
13:46 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: ( no output )
13:47 brrt` nice
13:47 brrt` hmm wait
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13:49 brrt what does perl6 has for printf support
13:50 tadzik brrt: it's our own implemented in nqp iirc
13:50 brrt ah
13:50 brrt but
13:51 brrt m: printf("%d", 42);
13:51 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«42»
13:51 brrt ah
13:51 * brrt didn't read the error message very well
13:52 brrt do we support position specifiers?
13:52 brrt as in: m: printf("%2$d %1$d", 1, 2);
13:52 brrt m: printf("%2$d %1$d", 1, 2);
13:52 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/JOCybDXxYCâ�¤Variable '$d' is not declaredâ�¤at /tmp/JOCybDXxYC:1â�¤------> [32mprintf("%2$d[33mâ��[31m %1$d", 1, 2);[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfixâ�¤Â»
13:53 brrt uh duh
13:53 brrt m: printf('%2$d %1$d', 1, 2);
13:53 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«2 1»
13:53 brrt public service announcement, brrt is dumb today
13:56 lizmat good *, #perl6!
13:57 FROGGS hi lizmat
13:57 * lizmat just recovered from a ~9 hour Hobbit Marathon
13:57 lizmat wrt to 42.WHY: yes, that used to work
13:58 lizmat but someone pointed out to me, it was actually the other way around
13:58 tadzik lizmat: so, the first film? :P
13:58 lizmat 42 was the answer, not the question  :-)
13:58 lizmat the first 3 films
13:58 brrt \o lizmat
13:58 lizmat brrt tadzik  FROGGS  o/
13:58 tadzik o/
13:58 brrt is the third hobbit film available yet?
13:58 brrt as in
13:58 brrt released
13:59 FROGGS does it have production grade?
13:59 * FROGGS runs
13:59 lizmat brrt: yes, it came out today (just after midnight :-)
14:00 brrt awesome
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14:02 * geekosaur considers a compare and contrast with the Rankin-Bass one >.>
14:02 tadzik on the day that thepiratebay went down :P
14:03 colomon Never thought I'd say this, but based on the first two Jackson films, the Rankin-Bass one is miles better.  :)
14:04 geekosaur I can't really claim to be surprised; doing it as a trilogy always seemed like it was aiming for doom
14:07 Rounin Hm yes, it's not exactly the longest book, is it?
14:07 colomon While I hate the additions to pad the running time, my real objection is to the goofy action scenes, I think.
14:07 brrt on the other hand, it's likely you'd spend more than 9 hours reading it
14:08 colomon brrt: !!! I haven't timed myself recently, but I'm pretty sure I'd have finished it in 2-3 hours back when I was a kid and had uninterrupted reading time.
14:08 Rounin Yes, they could include every description of every tree
14:08 Rounin Complete with a voiceover
14:09 * brrt hasn't read it at all
14:09 Rounin "Here are all of Bilbo's aunts and uncles, by the way:"
14:09 brrt but perhaps i'm a relatively slow reader
14:09 [Coke] it's including other source material, not just the hobbit.
14:10 [Coke] but yes, the long running action sequences that appear to be there solely to give some heft to the 3D experience are meh for me.
14:10 [Coke] (my kid doesn't mind them, however, which I think might be kind of th epoint)
14:10 colomon [Coke]: yeah, I may not be the intended audience.
14:11 colomon Just checked, and an unabridged audiobook of The Hobbit is 11 hours and 8 minutes.
14:11 [Coke] colomon: I am sure I could devour it much faster. :P
14:12 [Coke] I am just glad the movie is here so my daughter can watch it, and NOW FINALLY she will consent to watch LOTR with me. :)
14:12 colomon [Coke]: yes, notice my estimate of (silent) reading time above.  ;)
14:12 Rounin She's reached the age of Tolkien consent... What a milestone!
14:13 [Coke] Rounin: only reason she wouldn't watch it before was because she wanted to see the movies in order. :P
14:13 [Coke] sorry, “in order”
14:13 Rounin She sounds more than adequately geeky, [Coke]
14:14 * lizmat wonders how much better the extended versions will be, especially wrt to action/non-action scene ratio
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14:16 moritz ok, I'm slowly setting up the various p6 websites on the new webserver
14:16 moritz with domain p6c.org instead of perl6.org
14:16 moritz so that we can do a friendly DNS switch-over once everything is as we want
14:17 moritz www.p6c.org and faq.p6c.org are already set up
14:17 geekosaur yeh, I've found I can't do audiobooks because it's painfully slow compared to reading
14:17 masak today's autopun spotting: https://twitter.com/secboffi​n/status/534629070508920832
14:19 * colomon is now listening to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3kCGNFBuSU because of this conversation
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14:20 moritz geekosaur: I find audiobooks perfect when doing laundry etc.
14:21 colomon long drives...
14:21 colomon saving your voice when your son wants to hear Prisoner of Azkaban for the fifth time....
14:21 [Coke] I put on podcasts/short stories when walking.
14:22 [Coke] but yah, if it's the -active- thing I'm doing, it's too slow. waaaay too slow
14:24 FROGGS moritz: p6c.org feels fast-ish :o)
14:24 moritz FROGGS: \o/
14:24 moritz also shell accounts are available
14:25 FROGGS nice :o)
14:27 PerlJam moritz++
14:28 PerlJam moritz: so ... how do we obtain said shell accounts?
14:28 moritz PerlJam: /msg me your pubkey and desired username
14:29 moritz I plan to blog about it later
14:29 masak ooh, I have another advent blog idea!
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14:29 masak will take a bit of effort to pull off, but should be worth it... :)
14:29 colomon moritz: shall we move the smoke test report stuff over?
14:29 masak I'd better write it sooner rather than later, though.
14:32 moritz colomon: yes please
14:32 moritz colomon: though that's probably better located on the webserver (www.p6c.org)
14:33 FROGGS go masak go! /o/
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14:46 colomon moritz++
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14:51 lizmat welcome Foxcool   :-)
14:52 Foxcool (:
14:53 lizmat moritz: I wonder whether we shouldn't have a ':all' param on PsuedoStash.keys
14:53 lizmat *Pseudo
14:54 lizmat I guess after a while you get fed up with seeing the usual suspects in there :-)
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15:22 masak lizmat: I haven't kept up on PseduoStashes. when does this happen?
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15:33 moritz lizmat: you mean for the implicit vars?
15:37 lizmat moritz: yes, the implicit vars
15:44 masak it sounds harmful to me to hide something by default that's there but implicitly declared.
15:46 lizmat but we do the same with ^methods, no?
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16:00 andreoss sub ... is cached{ # no space between 'd' and '{' -  causes compile-time error
16:00 andreoss why space is needed?
16:01 flussence cached{...} is a hash key lookup
16:01 flussence std: sub foo is cached{ 1 }
16:01 camelia std 76ccee1: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Malformed block at /tmp/cMv2wK83uk line 1 (EOF):�------> [32msub foo is cached{ 1 }[33m�[31m<EOL>[0m�Parse failed�FAILED 00:00 137m�»
16:02 andreoss even without sigil?
16:02 FROGGS std: sub foo is cached{ 1 } { ... }
16:02 camelia std 76ccee1: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 137m␤»
16:02 FROGGS that belongs to the trait
16:02 FROGGS std: sub foo is cached(1) { ... } # like in here
16:02 camelia std 76ccee1: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 139m␤»
16:03 flussence m: constant cached = { :foo, :bar }; say cached{'foo'}
16:03 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«True␤»
16:06 andreoss so with 'is cached{...}' ... is meant for some additional options?
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16:31 psch hi #perl6 \o
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17:03 moritz oh hai
17:03 moritz so we don't have an advent post for tomorrow
17:03 moritz who wants to chime in?
17:04 TimToady yesterday jnthn++ was saying he would, I thought, but I'm still backlogging
17:04 moritz oh right, I misread the diff
17:04 moritz so nevermind
17:04 moritz jnthn++
17:04 moritz so Saturday, 13th is the next unclaimed spot
17:07 jnthn Yeah, I'll probably eat first, and then work on it :)
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17:10 andreoss yet is there something anyhow close to perltidy?
17:10 andreoss so far i've found Perl6::Format which is broken/unfinished
17:15 masak oh, I was not aware of that one.
17:15 dalek snake: c53c697 | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | src/Snake/Metamodel/ClassHOW.nqp:
17:15 dalek snake: First stab at user-defined callables.
17:15 dalek snake: review: https://github.com/arnshol​t/snake/commit/c53c69786a
17:15 masak andreoss: no, I wouldn't say there is anything close to PerlTidy yet.
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17:22 alesk m: role Doc { has $.doc is rw }; multi trait_mod:<is>(Attribute $a, Doc, $arg) { $a.container.VAR does Doc($arg); }; class C { has @.v is Doc('Array container') is rw; }; my $x = C.new; $x.v.doc.say; $x.v = (42, 43, 44); $x.v.perl.say;
17:22 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«Array container␤Array+{Doc}.new(42, 43, 44)␤»
17:23 alesk m: role Doc { has $.doc is rw }; multi trait_mod:<is>(Attribute $a, Doc, $arg) { $a.container.VAR does Doc($arg); }; class C { has $.v is Doc('Scalar container') is rw; }; my $x = C.new; $x.v.doc.say; $x.v = 42; $x.v.perl.say;
17:23 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«Scalar container␤Cannot modify an immutable Scalar+{Doc}␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/l8vXmsezxt:1␤␤»
17:24 alesk Why does it not work with scalars ?
17:27 psch m: my $x = 5; my $whichx = $x.WHICH; $x = 6; say $whichx === $x.WHICH
17:27 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«False␤»
17:28 hoelzro o/ #perl6
17:28 psch hoelzro \o
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17:33 hoelzro so I've been playing with Go a bit recently, and one thing that I find appealing about it is its tools to operate on Go source (ex. go fmt)
17:34 hoelzro these are easy to make because there's a Go parser in the stdlib; do we have a Grammar (other than Grammar.nqp) for doing something like this for Perl 6 source?
17:34 hoelzro I guess maybe STD.pm6 =/
17:34 [Coke] m: say Perl6::Grammar.WHAT:
17:35 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/QZy8hRja3jâ�¤Missing semicolon.â�¤at /tmp/QZy8hRja3j:1â�¤------> [32msay Perl6::Grammar.WHAT:[33mâ��[31m<EOL>[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        colon pairâ�¤Â»
17:35 TimToady it's probably about time to translate STD.pm6 to run on rakudo
17:35 [Coke] m: say Perl6::Grammar.WHAT;
17:35 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«Could not find symbol '&Grammar'␤  in method <anon> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:13772␤  in any find_method_fallback at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:2725␤  in any find_method at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:988␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/XRF3CpOACx:1␤␤»
17:36 psch m: say %~LANG
17:36 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«Slang.new(:grammar(Any), :actions(Any))␤»
17:36 TimToady but the desire for a standard high-level AST for macros may produce something in this regard to
17:37 TimToady thing is, Go is one language by design, and Perl 6 is many languages by design, so you have to account for extensibility
17:37 hoelzro indeed
17:37 hoelzro my use case is I want to search roast for a particular construction to see it's covered in tests
17:38 hoelzro and the construction involves a for loop, so searching by hand isn't really an option =/
17:38 TimToady it has been our feeling from the beginning that Paul Graham is correct about the 100-year language needing to be evolvable
17:39 TimToady so basically we need to extend our extensibility to the document model for Perl 6 code :)
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17:40 TimToady à la PPI, but extensible along with the language
17:40 hoelzro sounds good to me
17:41 hoelzro because one might add, for example, an after block (or something), and may want to write a tool to do something with after blocks, right?
17:41 TimToady you'd like your IDE to suddenly know about them, yeah
17:42 hoelzro makes sense
17:48 moritz loliblug: http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6​/2014-community-server-live.html
17:48 * TimToady wonders what breaks if we translate Grammar.nqp into Grammar.pm6 without translating Actions.nqp
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17:55 psch .tell jnthn fwiw, jarakudo tags 2013.11 and 2013.12 also die with boxing errors on the CRC32 example, so i don't know where to start bisecting from
17:55 yoleaux psch: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
17:55 psch moritz++ # hardware and such
17:57 moritz psch: just to be clear, I didn't pay anything for the hardware, that was funded by community donations
17:58 TimToady moritz++ # scutwork and such :)
17:58 psch moritz: oh, yeah i know that.  "handling hardware" might've been better
17:58 psch apparently i regularly struggle with actually expressing what i mean
17:58 * TimToady now wonders the derivation of "scut"...probably scatalogical...
17:59 TimToady or scutalogical...
17:59 * moritz simply out-corrects to "scout work" :-)
17:59 TimToady *ological
18:00 moritz or "grunt work"
18:00 huf huh, new word! thanks
18:00 * TimToady now wonders about the derivation of "grunt" :)
18:00 moritz it's hard, thankless work where you grunt while doing it
18:01 moritz or feel like a pig
18:01 * TimToady hopes pigs feel better when it's done
18:02 * moritz does, at least
18:03 huf grunt sounds suspiciously like the sound of grunting...
18:05 Mso150 joined #perl6
18:05 moritz I've now enforced some resource limits on user accounts on hack.p6c.org
18:06 moritz max RSS of 8GB, max. 1k processes, max 50 parallel logins per user
18:06 moritz does that sound reasonable?
18:06 PerlJam moritz: aye.
18:07 TimToady 50 logins should be enough for anyone :P
18:07 moritz it's not supposed to be lose enough to work well with rakudo dev, and only strict enough to not kill the server accidentally
18:08 TimToady well, it's not like it's set in stone for all eternity
18:08 TimToady not that stones are eternal either...
18:09 * masak .oO( unless they are infinity stones... )
18:09 moritz agreed with both :-)
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18:16 vendethiel o/, #perl6
18:16 andreoss joined #perl6
18:20 andreoss my @x = "123" ~~ m/\d/; # > catches 1
18:20 andreoss my @x = "123" ~~ m:g/\d/; # > catches nothing
18:20 andreoss how do i get matches in array context?
18:21 tony-o use .any
18:21 tony-o oh, nvm
18:24 psch andreoss: use the .match methods for now, m:g// isn't working quite right currently
18:24 psch *method
18:24 psch m: say "123".match(:g, /\d/)
18:24 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«「1」␤ 「2」␤ 「3」␤␤»
18:27 masak m: say "123".comb(/\d/)
18:27 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
18:27 masak m: say "123".comb(/\d/).perl
18:27 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«("1", "2", "3").list␤»
18:28 tony-o masak: beat me
18:29 masak I don't believe in violence.
18:29 masak you'll have to ask someone else.
18:29 andreoss my @x = "123" ~~ m/\d/; # > catches 1
18:29 andreoss my @x = "123" ~~ m:g/\d/; # > catches nothing
18:29 andreoss sorry..wrong buffer
18:30 njmurphy joined #perl6
18:30 andreoss btw, is there #learningperl6 or something like that? don't wanna spoil serious discussions with noob questions
18:32 vendethiel andreoss: there's no "noob questions" :)
18:32 TimToady maybe we should just make List one of the success values that smartmatching doesn't retest
18:34 TimToady I can't really think of any downsides
18:34 PerlJam vendethiel: I'd say ... there's only "noob questions"  ;)
18:34 TimToady anything currently done by List.ACCEPTS should probably have a keyword anyway
18:34 psch TimToady: that would happen instead of the OKness bit?
18:35 Mso150_a joined #perl6
18:35 masak PerlJam, vendethiel: the noob/non-noob duality is an illusion!
18:35 TimToady nobody every sprang for an OKness bit, but we've just kept a list of exceptional values/types
18:35 psch rather, "be an alternative to the OKness bit to improve smartmatching"
18:36 TimToady it seems saner than creating fake Match objects out of lists
18:37 TimToady and potentially allows other types to return lists as a success
18:38 TimToady and it falls out naturally that a list with 0 elements is False, while other lists are True, so a successful match can still be evaluated for 1-or-more-ness, which pretty much corresponds to how P5 handles matching in list vs boolean context
18:38 psch fwiw, the implementation for m:g// that i have sitting around leaves a root Match object around, which represents everything that has matched as one match
18:39 psch but it waterbedded towards "you have to say you want the list if you want to iterate over the list"
18:39 psch which as mentioned seems un-idiomatic
18:39 psch from that point of view i think having m:g// just return a List sounds cleaner
18:40 TimToady indeed
18:41 psch and the point with truthiness of a List according to the number of elements is good as well
18:46 jnthn Also, Match objects as currently factored don't do laziness, and m:g kinda wants it, or potentially wants it...
18:46 yoleaux 17:55Z <psch> jnthn: fwiw, jarakudo tags 2013.11 and 2013.12 also die with boxing errors on the CRC32 example, so i don't know where to start bisecting from
18:47 jnthn And m:ex I guess really wants it.
18:50 TimToady we should also remove any wildcarding from Array.ACCEPTS and make such pattern matching keyword driven as well
18:52 TimToady "respectively" is a bit long, however :)
18:52 jnthn .tell psch Well, bother. That means it bust ages ago :/
18:52 yoleaux jnthn: I'll pass your message to psch.
18:54 FROGGS joined #perl6
18:55 * psch was here all along
18:55 yoleaux 18:52Z <jnthn> psch: Well, bother. That means it bust ages ago :/
18:56 psch maybe i can get it with my overloaded method work, if not i'll look later on
18:58 [Coke] Do we have a page with "must have for 6.0.0." ?
18:58 [Coke] I want to make sure we have some notes about tests.
18:59 * jnthn must have dinner &
19:00 * [Coke] is so glad his $dayjob should be going back to normal soon.
19:01 rindolf joined #perl6
19:03 FROGGS lizmat: what's "That worked out" in .nl?
19:04 * hoelzro .oO( het heeft uitgewerkt? )
19:04 mvuets http://paste.scsys.co.uk/451676 - open does not handle :enc<utf16> properly, :enc<cp1251> dies with a fair reasonable message though
19:04 mvuets is it known? or should i rakudobug it?
19:07 psch m: my \xₙ = 1; my \xₙ₊₁ = xₙ + 1; # this made me a bit sad recently
19:07 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/WRagmtH7sqâ�¤Term definition requires an initializerâ�¤at /tmp/WRagmtH7sq:1â�¤------> [32mmy \xâ‚™ = 1; my \xâ‚™[33mâ��[31mâ‚Šâ‚� = xâ‚™ + 1; # this made me a bit sad re[0mâ�¤    expecting any o…»
19:07 psch not sure if it'd be reasonable to expect it to work
19:07 FROGGS you expect that the + will be part of the name?
19:08 psch i'd have liked it in this case, yeah
19:08 mvuets re open: fwiw it's print() that fails, not open(), but the question stays
19:08 psch but it's still a plus, even if subscripted
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19:10 psch mvuets: a cursory search of RT didn't reveal a known bug to me at least
19:11 [Coke] There's limits on what's in a var name.
19:11 FROGGS joined #perl6
19:12 [Coke] "An identifier is composed of an alphabetic character followed by any sequence of alphanumeric characters. The definitions of alphabetic and numeric include appropriate Unicode characters. Underscore is always considered alphabetic. An identifier may also contain isolated apostrophes or hyphens provided the next character is alphabetic."
19:13 smls How can I get formatting codes to work inside Pod tables? (Stand-alone example script: https://gist.github.com/smls/f10a15046a58c740248c )
19:13 [Coke] so, no bug there, methinks.
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19:17 psch oh, i'm not saying it's a bug
19:18 psch i can accept having to override <ident> to get that kind of identifier working
19:19 psch it's not like we're generally that math-centric to want non-alnum sub- or superscripts in identifiers
19:22 ronin joined #perl6
19:22 ronin what's wrong with this http://ideone.com/xuZcUT https://gist.github.com/smls/732​115c66cd29aa2e9d0#file-grades-p6
19:23 ronin I get Unable to open filehandle from path 'grades.p6'
19:23 mvuets links on http://rakudo.org/tickets/ are broken )-: for instance, http://rakudo.org/rt/easy -> "There was an error parsing your search query [...]"
19:24 mvuets m: say "☺".encode("UTF-8")
19:24 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«Buf:0x<e2 98 ba>␤»
19:24 mvuets m: say "☺".encode("UTF-16")
19:24 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«Buf:0x<263a>␤»
19:25 mvuets latter case seems odd: is that a multi-byte? encode should return octets as in the former example, shouldn't it?
19:27 smls ronin: Do you have the grades.txt file in the current directory?
19:27 ronin yes
19:27 ronin wait
19:28 ronin I run it from the wrong directory, how can i even run it from wrong directory? :/
19:28 ronin wtf
19:28 ronin but i get now: Unsupported use of - as character range; in Perl 6 please use .. at line 4, near "]>?) $/ or"
19:29 FROGGS std: /<[+-]>/
19:29 camelia std 76ccee1: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 138m␤»
19:29 FROGGS m: /<[+-]>/
19:29 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: ( no output )
19:31 geekosaur mvuets: Buf can have sizes other than 8 (octets). encode("UTF-16") gives you a Buf of 2-byte chunks, corresponding to the encoding
19:31 smls ronin: It works fine for me on a relatively recent Rakudo+MoarVM
19:32 FROGGS will that every work? m:s/^ (\w+) (<[A..F]><[+-]>?) $/
19:33 FROGGS ahh, yes perhaps
19:35 * vendethiel finished the draft of the new learnperl6inyminutes
19:36 smls m: "Celine\tA-" ~~ m:s/^ (\w+) (<[A..F]><[+-]>?) $/; say "$0: $1"
19:36 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«Celine: A-␤»
19:36 vendethiel new structure*
19:36 mvuets m: say "☺".encode("utf-16").perl
19:36 camelia rakudo-moar c91a58: OUTPUT«utf16.new(9786)␤»
19:37 mvuets apparently utf-16 is affected by endianness (in contrast to utf-16le and utf16-be)
19:37 mvuets so that is perfectly valid
19:37 mvuets geekosaur: thanks (-:
19:40 nige joined #perl6
19:48 nige Hi
19:48 nige here is a draft my advent post - feedback is very welcome: http://perl6advent.wordpress.​com/?p=2507&amp;preview=true
19:51 psch nige++ # portcullis as a mnemonic for private attribute twigil
19:53 * vendethiel can't read it
19:53 psch i'm not sure i fully agree with "the twigil travels with the attribute through the class" - you can (have to) access $.var as $!var if you want to write to it
19:54 psch vendethiel: you need to be in the author group i think
19:54 kurahaupo joined #perl6
19:55 FROGGS nige++
19:55 FROGGS I like it :o)
19:56 psch i also meant to put a "?" after the parenthesesed "have to", because i'm not completely sure...
19:56 kurahaupo joined #perl6
19:56 FROGGS psch: you have to if your accessor method is not rw
19:57 psch FROGGS++: ah, okay, thanks
19:57 anaeem1_ joined #perl6
19:58 beastd joined #perl6
19:58 vendethiel ah, right.
20:01 dalek rakudo/nom: 5f64944 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/core/operators.pm:
20:01 dalek rakudo/nom: RT #123303 fix exception throwing of undeducable sequences
20:01 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5f6494462d
20:01 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=123303
20:01 _4d47 joined #perl6
20:03 bartolin hi, #perl6
20:05 bartolin speaking of sequences: did someone have an opportunity to look at my PR which attempts to fix chained sequences (https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/336)
20:07 dalek roast: 3b96e08 | (Tobias Leich)++ | S03-sequence/misc.t:
20:07 dalek roast: RT #123303 test exception throwing of undeducable sequences
20:07 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/3b96e08f86
20:07 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=123303
20:08 anaeem1 joined #perl6
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20:10 FROGGS bartolin: let me test it
20:10 bartolin great! FROGSS++
20:12 FROGGS bartolin: could that be part of an else after line 232? https://github.com/usev6/rakudo/commit/8b​85116017a4dcf05e9f3d0250f7bc419e283b2b#di​ff-cdcd7468e5ed1820ac714b6d322a492aR225
20:15 bartolin FROGGS: yes, that looks plausible
20:15 FROGGS maybe we spot another opportunity to save some work...
20:16 FROGGS would be unfortunate to slow sequences down
20:19 bartolin agreed. I was kind of happy to make it work -- but the code can be improved surely ...
20:20 FROGGS yeah, it looks very good... I don't see any spectest fallout yet
20:20 bartolin I had no spectest failures as well (moar, parrot and jvm)
20:23 bartolin but on the other hand there aren't many tests for chained sequences (and probably it's not used for other functionalities)
20:25 bartolin the four tests skipped for rakudo in S03-sequence/misc.t should pass with this as well
20:29 FROGGS yes, that's what I am testing
20:32 Isp-sec joined #perl6
20:34 FROGGS bartolin: can you please push optimizations to your repo? I'll merge it when I get your ok
20:34 mvuets http://paste.scsys.co.uk/451709 - IO::Handle.open does not handle symlinks? )-:
20:36 bartolin FROGGS: do you have other suggestions at hand (apart from the else clause mentioned above)?
20:36 mvuets how do i search ticket bodies in rt?
20:37 FROGGS bartolin: maybe don't alloc @left_tail?
20:37 FROGGS mvuets: I believe it is not possible anymore... it used to work until RT was updated
20:38 FROGGS bartolin: same for $last
20:38 mvuets FROGGS: when i want to check if the bug is reported already, i can count on subjects only?
20:38 bartolin FROGGS: okay, I'll look at it. thanks a lot for testing and commenting!
20:39 FROGGS bartolin: sure :o)
20:39 psch ohh boy.  i get different behavior for repeated runs of the same code :(
20:39 psch sometimes debug output disappears /o\
20:39 FROGGS bartolin: please point to other PR's... it is easy to overlook them :o/
20:40 FROGGS mvuets: aye, also masak and bartolin know pretty well the bugs they filed/reviewed :o)
20:40 bartolin there is only a PR for the P6 book (mostly to handle the related tickets): https://github.com/perl6/book/pull/82
20:41 kjs_ joined #perl6
20:41 bartolin *g*
20:41 FROGGS bartolin: line 238 in that gist can be simplified:
20:41 FROGGS m: my @a = 1, 2; my @b = 3, 4; say @a = unshift @b, @a
20:41 camelia rakudo-moar 5f6494: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4␤»
20:41 FROGGS you don't need any 'unshift', right?
20:42 FROGGS m: my @a = 1, 2; my @b = 3, 4; say @a = @a, @b
20:42 camelia rakudo-moar 5f6494: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4␤»
20:42 FROGGS m: my @a = 1, 2; my @b = 3, 4; @a.push: @b; say @a
20:42 camelia rakudo-moar 5f6494: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4␤»
20:42 FROGGS I'd prefer the latter
20:43 bartolin FROGGS: but @seq can be infinite
20:44 bartolin s/seq/seq_part/
20:44 FROGGS m: my @a := 1..*; my @b = 42; @a := @a, @b
20:44 camelia rakudo-moar 5f6494: ( no output )
20:44 FROGGS m: my @b := 1..*; my @a = 42; @a := @a, @b
20:44 camelia rakudo-moar 5f6494: ( no output )
20:44 FROGGS that should do
20:44 bartolin FROGGS++
20:45 FROGGS err, @a := (@b, @a).flat <-- better
20:45 FROGGS that's almost an idiom, you find that in quite some places in the setting
20:46 bartolin that gave me something to work on, thanks again
20:46 FROGGS :o)
20:50 masak perl6: sub f { my &b = { say "returnin'!"; return }; sub g(&c) { say "in g"; c() }; g(&b); say "still in f" }; f()
20:50 camelia rakudo-{parrot,moar} 5f6494: OUTPUT«in g␤returnin'!␤»
21:04 * mvuets filed his two very first perl6 bug reports (-:
21:04 bartolin you're welcome ;-)
21:05 pecastro joined #perl6
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21:06 hoelzro mvuets++
21:07 * jnthn works on le blog post
21:08 mvuets #perl6, i had this idea to share interesting perl6 sample few-liners along as i learn the language
21:08 itz arggg systemd ate my sid
21:09 mvuets with hoelzro's boost i created a twitter account for this purpose
21:09 PerlJam mvuets++
21:09 mvuets enter https://twitter.com/perlhex
21:09 mvuets hoelzro++ for the great handle pun name
21:10 FROGGS jnthn: for your blog or the advent calendar?
21:10 jnthn FROGGS: Ja.
21:10 masak 'night, #perl6
21:10 FROGGS arrgh!
21:10 jnthn Bah, there goes one of my proof readers... :P
21:10 jnthn 'night, masak
21:10 jnthn FROGGS: Uh, for the advent calendar... :)
21:10 FROGGS jnthn: as I tend to say to my kids: replying with 'ja' to an either/or question is invalid!
21:11 FROGGS kthx :o)
21:11 FROGGS gnight masak
21:11 jnthn Damn, I was so proud I managed to answer it in another language, I forget the answer was meaningless. :P
21:11 FROGGS hehe
21:11 mvuets i started off with easy and trivial examples, pretending i write a tutorial for newbies (-:
21:12 mvuets and do not want to freak out people with crazy fancy examples at once
21:13 FROGGS yeah, don't spread line noise :o)
21:14 mvuets so, if you have any feedback (what to post, how to post, stop it altogether, etc) - very welcome
21:15 vendethiel niice :-)
21:16 ptc_p6 joined #perl6
21:18 muraiki joined #perl6
21:19 FROGGS mvuets: nice examples!
21:19 FROGGS though since I've got no twitter account I won't stalk^Wfollow anybody there :o)
21:20 dalek perl6-roast-data: d8e01f6 | coke++ | / (4 files):
21:20 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
21:20 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/d8e01f6c56
21:24 anaeem1_ joined #perl6
21:26 perltricks Argh Windows, why
21:26 perltricks C:\Users\dfarrell>perl6 -e ".say for 0..10" | more ???????????
21:28 moritz does it work without | more ?
21:29 mvuets FROGGS: thank you!
21:29 perltricks moritz: oh yeah it works fine. more just outputs ? for every char printed. I'm trying to find a workaround for the fact that p6doc uses less, which doesn't exist on WIndows
21:29 perltricks doesn't exist on cmd.exe I should say
21:30 jnthn ffs, it does that here as well
21:30 jnthn wtf.
21:31 geekosaur some kind of encoding issue? like it expects utf16 if it doesn't see the (technically illegal) byte order mark?
21:31 jnthn Redirect to a file works. Piping it into other processes works. But more gets upset.
21:32 PerlJam perltricks: write a perl pager to use instead of less  :)
21:32 kurahaupo1 joined #perl6
21:33 moritz call it "pess"
21:34 colomon joined #perl6
21:35 perltricks hmm
21:35 mvuets perltricks: try http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/less.htm - it's a native port, not as heavy as cygwin
21:36 perltricks if you do: chcp 65001
21:36 perltricks then try piping into more, you'll see a P6 error msg
21:37 perltricks Not enough memory. Failed to write string to stream: broken pipe   in method print at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:14845   in sub say at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:15179   in method say at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:1136   in block <unit> at -e:1
21:37 mvuets perltricks: also if you use git for windows, iirc it comes with mingw which should have less as well
21:37 mvuets (that's in case you want to workaround a problem)
21:38 perltricks mvuets: thanks, but I'm wondering about how to fix this in p6doc
21:38 dalek doc: 69e0292 | moritz++ | sync:
21:38 dalek doc: sync also to new community server
21:38 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/69e029296e
21:40 anaeem1_ joined #perl6
21:40 moritz that's it for today, TTFN folks
21:40 colomon joined #perl6
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22:04 lizmat FROGGS hoelzro: "het heeft uitgewerkt" is a literal translation and not correct
22:04 lizmat I would say "alles is op zijn pootjes terecht gekomen"
22:05 lizmat literally translates to: "everything landed on its feet"
22:05 FROGGS lizmat: thanks! :D
22:06 FROGGS in the end I just wrote "Dat werkte!"
22:06 lizmat that would mean more "it worked" instead of "it worked out"
22:07 lizmat *that
22:07 FROGGS well, he fixed something, so that's all right I think
22:08 lizmat ah, then "dat werkte" would be better
22:10 Rounin joined #perl6
22:11 bartolin FROGGS: I'm now testing an improved version (IMHO) of my PR locally. if it runs fine, I'll commit it to my repository and leave you a note (probably tomorrow). or should I better close the existing PR and create a new one?
22:11 FROGGS bartolin: just push to your nom branch, and it will show up in the existing PR
22:12 bartolin FROGGS: great
22:12 telex joined #perl6
22:14 hoelzro I know, I was trying to make a bad joke =)
22:15 hoelzro of all of the things I learned living among the Dutch, the language was not one of them
22:16 lizmat I wonder how many Dutch people you've actually seen while you where in Amsterdam  :-)
22:16 tony-o timotimo: pipelining is working for http async, doing some testing on it prior to uploading
22:16 hoelzro lizmat: good point =)
22:17 xinming joined #perl6
22:18 lizmat m: role A { has $.a; submethod BUILD(:$!a) {}}; class B does A {}; B.new   # this feels weird
22:18 camelia rakudo-moar 5f6494: OUTPUT«P6opaque: no such attribute '$!a'␤  in submethod BUILD at /tmp/oXV5w_hmGw:1␤  in method BUILDALL at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:961␤  in method bless at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:944␤  in method new at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:928␤  in block <unit> at /tmp…»
22:19 lizmat so I can't have a submethod BUILD in a role ?
22:19 jnthn lizmat: What happens if you assign the attr in the method body and take a normal programer?
22:19 jnthn wtf
22:19 jnthn a normal PARAMETER
22:19 FROGGS take that bloody normal programmer! :P
22:20 lizmat jnthn: works ok then
22:20 lizmat ok, that will do as a workaround then
22:20 kurahaupo1 joined #perl6
22:21 jnthn Pleaes file it
22:21 lizmat will do
22:21 jnthn it's either a generic instantiatoin bug or, more likely perhaps, a bug in the signature bind lowering optimization tht makes it mis-handle the genericity.
22:23 lizmat --optimize=0 gives same result
22:24 jnthn Yeah, but it's actually done in actions phase, not optimizer phase.
22:24 lizmat disabling spesh also doesn't change the result (not that I expected that, but as a data point)
22:24 jnthn m: role A { has $.a; submethod BUILD(:$!a, @a? is copy) {}}; class B does A {}; B.new
22:24 camelia rakudo-moar 5f6494: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/ncybyPYRO3�Cannot put optional positional parameter @a after variadic parameters�at /tmp/ncybyPYRO3:1�------> [32ms $.a; submethod BUILD(:$!a, @a? is copy[33m�[31m) {}}; class B does A {}…»
22:24 jnthn ah
22:24 jnthn m: role A { has $.a; submethod BUILD(@a? is copy, :$!a) {}}; class B does A {}; B.new
22:24 camelia rakudo-moar 5f6494: ( no output )
22:25 jnthn Yeah, it's in the bind lowering.
22:25 jnthn (I know bind lowering can't handle @a is copy, so I use it to force it to bail).
22:26 * lizmat does not know what you mean with "bind lowering"
22:26 jnthn lizmat: Signature binding naively goes through a bunch of code that interprets the signature.
22:27 jnthn lizmat: Bind lowering "compiles" signatures that are simple enough (which is the majority thta show up in real code)
22:27 jnthn And the bug is in that bit of compilation, somewhere around the code that handles attributive parameters.
22:27 dalek rakudo/newio: 37b37fd | jonathan++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
22:27 dalek rakudo/newio: NQP bump to get MoarVM with callbacks changes.
22:27 dalek rakudo/newio: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/37b37fde00
22:27 dalek rakudo/newio: c91a583 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | src/core/Temporal.pm:
22:27 dalek rakudo/newio: Loosen Date.new(DateTime) to Date.new(Dateish) to simplify subclasses
22:27 dalek rakudo/newio: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c91a58332a
22:27 dalek rakudo/newio: c9eecf9 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | / (2 files):
22:27 dalek rakudo/newio: Merge branch 'nom' into newio
22:27 dalek rakudo/newio: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c9eecf9a35
22:27 dalek rakudo/newio: 21aee6b | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/IO/Locally.pm:
22:27 dalek rakudo/newio: Workaround for #123407
22:27 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=123407
22:27 dalek rakudo/newio: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/21aee6b1c5
22:28 denis_boyun joined #perl6
22:32 denis_boyun joined #perl6
22:33 tony-o btyler: can you do a test for me on a branch of http-async ?
22:36 denis_boyun joined #perl6
22:36 tony-o btyler: looking at keep-alive on this branch: https://github.com/tony-o/perl6-​http-server-async/tree/keepalive
22:38 colomon joined #perl6
22:39 lizmat mvuets: re http://paste.scsys.co.uk/451709, I don't have any problem opening files from a symlink
22:40 lizmat perhaps it's really an access right issue ?
22:43 lizmat gnight, #perl6!
22:43 bartolin o/
22:44 hoelzro lizmat: did you see the bit about the symlink having a relative vs absolute path?
22:45 lizmat no, but relative/absolute: I can still open a file from a symlink
22:45 lizmat (on OS X, that is)
22:45 lizmat real sleep&
22:49 hoelzro ah ha, maybe it's a Linux issue, then
22:50 tony-o should that bit interpret ~/ as %*ENV<HOME>/  on linux/osx ?
22:50 tony-o or whatever the proper environment variable is ^^
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22:52 geekosaur um. it's somewhat unusual for programs other than shells to handle ~
22:52 psch jnthn: how do i handle getting arrays from java? allocate a VMArrayInstance and push the values in there after boxing?
22:53 psch jnthn: another thing i discovered not working is returning objects instantiated in java, test case is a new instance of the class i imported
22:53 psch that class should already exist but maybe i'm not finding the right STable..? (this stuff is rather complicated i feel...)
22:53 jnthn psch: Yes, though see Ops.list or so to see how it's typically done...
22:56 psch ah, RakOps.p6list it is i guess, thanks jnthn++
23:03 tony-o jnthn: keep-alive seems to be working for http-async, seems like it causes moar to segfault sooner than it used to
23:09 jnthn tony-o: Yeah. My tuit supply has continued to suck. :( It's likely to improve somewhat in the next days, quite a bit in a couple of weeks, and perhaps very drastically in a few months. :)
23:10 jnthn I didn't forget I need to look at it, it's just digging into such things tends to be a many-hour bug hunt.
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23:59 dalek doc: fface4e | smls++ | lib/ (11 files):
23:59 dalek doc: Refactor and expand sets/bags/mixes docs
23:59 dalek doc:
23:59 dalek doc: The class docs now have their own .pod files in the Type/ folder (like all other classes).
23:59 dalek doc: The Sets_Bags_and_Mixes language page is renamed to setbagmix to fit in with the usual naming scheme.
23:59 dalek doc: All related .pod's are now also more fleshed out.
23:59 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/fface4e24b

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