Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2014-12-18

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:06 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
00:07 brrt ehm, who maintains the perl6 advent blog?
00:07 brrt https://gist.github.com/bdw/3f3928bed9428fa386cb <- blog entry for today
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00:18 pyrimidine_ Ulti++ # getting an O'Reilly tweet
00:20 vendethiel ooh, amazing, brrt! I said I should contribute some to moarvm, nice start
00:21 brrt (tweets ftw :-))
00:21 ka05 joined #perl6
00:21 brrt well, if it helps recruit people to moarvm, then i've succeeded :-)
00:21 brrt but i don't know how to post it on the perl6advent blog (i don't have credentials for it, for one)
00:22 brrt but whoever does has my full permission to post it and make changes
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00:54 colomon brrt: what's your e-mail?
00:56 raiph I've added a comment to brrt++'s gist with typo corrections
00:57 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
00:58 brrt thanks raiph :-)
00:58 brrt colomon: sent via pm
00:59 brrt raiph: fixed
01:04 colomon brrt: sorry, got distracted by Michigan coaching news.  ;)
01:05 colomon brrt: you should have an invitation to join p6 advent waiting in your e-mail.
01:10 brrt np :-)
01:24 Brian joined #perl6
01:27 brrt http://perl6advent.wordpress.​com/?p=2733&amp;preview=true
01:28 brrt i've scheduled it for two hours from now
01:28 brrt and i'm going to sleep
01:28 brrt see y'all tomorrow
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02:12 abraxxa1 is www.perl6.org moved to the new server currently? it shows the wrong page...
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02:25 TimToady indeed it does
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02:58 timotimo i changed the title to start with "Day 18:" and put it into the 2014 category
02:59 timotimo i hope i didn't break it just by opening it in the wordpress editor
03:00 colomon brrt++
03:02 timotimo damn
03:02 timotimo if i had been there, i could have told brrt how to run the graph spesh tool
03:02 timotimo (all it needs is for you to run update_ops.pl)
03:03 noganex joined #perl6
03:03 timotimo but it also tells you to in the comment at the beginning of the script :S
03:03 abraxxa_home i'm trying to compile rakudo with clang and found https://www.mail-archive.com/perl6​-internals@perl.org/msg45189.html
03:03 abraxxa_home but it seems the option to pass the compiler and linker has changed
03:04 abraxxa_home is this a --parrot-option ?
03:05 timotimo i wonder if it'd be disrespectful to write a little in-line comment about that?
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03:12 abraxxa_home seems to be --moar-option='--compiler clang'
03:13 timotimo right, we're suggesting people build with MoarVM by default nowadays
03:13 timotimo moarvm doesn't accept parrot options :)
03:15 abraxxa_home it's --compiler=clang, seems the help screen is slightly wrong there
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03:16 timotimo oh, could be
03:16 * timotimo doesn't know much about the build system
03:17 abraxxa_home i've added a moar-clang option to my rakudobrew
03:20 abraxxa_home clang warns a *lot*
03:21 timotimo yes :(
03:23 abraxxa_home but it builds fine
03:23 abraxxa_home as the all the perl6.org websites including modules.perl6.org doesn't work I can't install modules using panda
03:33 timotimo ooooh
03:37 abraxxa_home did you not know that?
03:37 abraxxa_home maybe a vhost misconfiguration of apache
03:38 timotimo i didn't know that
03:38 timotimo i'm looking at www.p6c.org now (from the inside) and seeing a few difficulties
03:38 abraxxa_home all those urls go to Perl 6 Design Documents
03:38 timotimo yes
03:38 timotimo all the sites-enabled/ files aren't added to git, for example
03:40 abraxxa_home symlinks?
03:40 abraxxa_home are you running Debian?
03:40 timotimo this is a debian system, aye
03:40 abraxxa_home yeah, i've read the posts about the new server
03:40 abraxxa_home tried to come up with one at work too
03:41 timotimo which mod exactly would apache want to make the sites-enabled subdir work?
03:42 abraxxa_home no mod, the main config file just includes all those files
03:42 timotimo mhm
03:42 abraxxa_home most Debian packages are configured that way
03:42 abraxxa_home even sudo since version 7
03:43 timotimo ok
03:43 timotimo in that case i don't really see what could be wrong :(
03:43 abraxxa_home check the main config file if the sites-enabled dir is really included
03:43 abraxxa_home and file permissions
03:43 abraxxa_home dir perms too
03:44 * JimmyZ can take a look if he has permissions
03:45 abraxxa_home check the startup log for errors
03:45 timotimo the folders are r-x for others, the files are r-- for others
03:45 timotimo should work
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03:47 raiph did you guys see http://irclog.perlgeek.de/p​erl6/2014-12-17#i_9821281?
03:48 timotimo is VirtualHost *:80 really correct?
03:48 JimmyZ yeah
03:48 raiph also, i just emailed Audrey (re perl6.org issues)
03:48 abraxxa_home yes
03:48 abraxxa_home the server name should be configured for each vhost though
03:49 abraxxa_home the VirtualHost directive just tells it to do routing by hostname
03:49 JimmyZ I don't know how au's action affects perl6.org
03:49 JimmyZ :)
03:50 raiph JimmyZ: did you see the dns change in my clog link?
03:50 abraxxa_home $ host modules.perl6.org
03:50 abraxxa_home modules.perl6.org has address 213.95.82.53
03:50 abraxxa_home is that what it should be?
03:50 JimmyZ raiph: yeah
03:50 timotimo the ServerName is configured, as are multiple ServerAlias directives
03:51 timotimo er, configs? options?
03:51 abraxxa_home https://httpd.apache.org/docs/​2.4/en/vhosts/name-based.html
03:52 abraxxa_home timotimo: i'd reload apache and check the logs
03:53 timotimo i've reloaded it; which log file shoul di check?
03:53 JimmyZ /var/log/apache* ?
03:54 timotimo yeah, not much to see there
03:54 abraxxa_home can you see my request coming from 62.178.122.70?
03:55 abraxxa_home should have served modules.perl6.org
03:55 timotimo no accesses for 18th dec for modulse.perl6.org
03:56 abraxxa_home does httpd.conf include the sites-enabled dir?
03:56 timotimo your ip shows up in design.perl6.org, though
03:56 abraxxa_home where is that vhost configured?
03:57 abraxxa_home in one of the sites-enabled files or the main httpd.conf?
03:57 timotimo yes, it does
03:57 JimmyZ it looks like perlcabal.org has bad configure...
03:57 raiph fwiw http://testers.perl6.org/ works
03:57 JimmyZ which make other configures fail
03:57 abraxxa_home JimmyZ: it redirects to http://perl6.org/ which also serves the same, wrong site as modules.perl6.org
03:58 timotimo oh
03:58 timotimo i think i know what's going on?
03:58 JimmyZ abraxxa_home: yeah
03:58 abraxxa_home $ host testers.perl6.org
03:58 abraxxa_home testers.perl6.org has address 85.25.222.109
03:58 JimmyZ testers.perl6.org is different server
03:58 timotimo the virtualhosts for design and perlcabal have ip addresses
03:58 timotimo the others just have *
03:58 timotimo does that make them more specific, and thus prefered in the first step of VHost resolvment?
03:59 JimmyZ yeah, that is what it looks like
03:59 timotimo gimme a sec.
03:59 abraxxa_home i remember i had that problem when i was using apache (switched to nginx years ago)
03:59 abraxxa_home maybe something with IPv6 enabled
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03:59 timotimo that's it
04:00 timotimo please try it on your end
04:00 abraxxa_home the apache docs say: Name-based virtual hosts for the best-matching set of  <virtualhost>s are processed      in the order they appear in the configuration.
04:00 JimmyZ so perlcabal.org host's configure is bad
04:00 JimmyZ Is it?
04:00 abraxxa_home YAY!
04:00 timotimo abraxxa_home: yes, but only after IP-based virtual hosts have been processed
04:00 timotimo It is important to recognize that the first step in name-based virtual host resolution is IP-based resolution. Name-based virtual host resolution only chooses the most appropriate name-based virtual host after narrowing down the candidates to the best IP-based match. Using a wildcard (*) for the IP address in all of the VirtualHost directives makes this IP-based mapping irrelevant.
04:01 abraxxa_home got it
04:01 abraxxa_home i'd recommend using * everywhere IF all sites should be accessible by all IPs only by their names
04:01 timotimo yeah
04:01 abraxxa_home then i had the same problem because it also occurred when mixing the two
04:02 timotimo moritz will have had some reason to have that in there; maybe it was copypasted from the previous config where these sites lived on separate servers
04:02 abraxxa_home so why do i now get Could not find Shell::Command in any of: /home/abraxxa/.rakudobrew/moar-clang-​2014.11/install/languages/perl6/lib, /home/abraxxa/.rakudobrew/moar-cla​ng-2014.11/install/languages/perl6
04:03 abraxxa_home ah, forgot to run rakudobrew build panda for the clang build, panda still found in path?
04:05 abraxxa_home is there a useful benchmark for Perl6 so I can compare the gcc with the clang build?
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04:05 timotimo we have perl6-bench, but there's not really a single benchmark that'd give you a good coverage of "everything"
04:06 abraxxa_home perl 6 test suite?
04:07 abraxxa_home both builds fail NativeCall t/08-callbacks.t
04:07 timotimo 32bit?
04:07 abraxxa_home 64bit Ubuntu 14.10
04:08 abraxxa_home where does panda extract the modules to run the tests?
04:10 abraxxa_home it's test 3: *** Error in `/home/abraxxa/.rakudobrew/mo​ar-2014.11/install/bin/moar': free(): invalid pointer: 0x00007ff23dfb0a58 ***
04:10 abraxxa_home Aborted (core dumped)
04:12 timotimo in a .work folder
04:12 abraxxa_home ~/.panda-work
04:12 abraxxa_home found out using panda look
04:14 abraxxa_home default os compiler different from Perl 6 compiler maybe?
04:14 abraxxa_home but then the regular moar build should succeed at least
04:16 abraxxa_home clang fails with *** Error in `/home/abraxxa/.rakudobrew/moar-​clang-2014.11/install/bin/moar': munmap_chunk(): invalid pointer: 0x00007fbe1e322a78 ***
04:16 abraxxa_home i try to get some sleep
04:16 abraxxa_home for whatever reason I wasn't able to today...
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04:19 timotimo gnite!
04:20 abraxxa_home thanks!
04:21 abraxxa_home have to do some dbic support ;)
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07:57 moritz \o
07:59 nwc10 o/
07:59 moritz timotimo: the reason behind the odd virtualhost config was that I wanted separate IPv6 addresses for the separate vhosts
08:00 moritz timotimo: I know it can be made to work, I just need to be more diligent testing it
08:00 moritz timotimo: thanks for fixing it!
08:00 moritz timotimo++
08:00 moritz (increased bus number)++
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08:07 JimmyZ \o/
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08:13 brrt timotitmo++ :-)
08:14 brrt (not my best day in typing names)
08:14 brrt timotimo++
08:15 moritz brrt: use tab completion for nick names :-)
08:17 brrt (does that work in erc :-o)
08:22 moritz brrt: I've never used erc, but I'd be surprised if it didn't
08:22 brrt it does :-)
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08:52 mathw good $localtime o/
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08:57 mathw SpaceX are going to test out landing the first stage of a Falcon 9 on a 300x100ft barge on their next launch
08:57 mathw that is pretty damned awesome
08:57 mathw if they can do it
08:57 mathw they reckon it's only got a 50% chance of success though
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09:01 mathw woops
09:01 mathw that was all in the wrong channel, I apologise
09:02 FROGGS mathw: np, many people here are interested in that :o)
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09:10 lizmat good *, #perl6!
09:10 yoleaux 17 Dec 2014 22:08Z <jnthn> lizmat: I'll take care of the MoarVM release early afternoon; hope that fits well if your relesae planning...
09:11 lizmat related PSA: I will start the release process in about 4 hours from now
09:12 * lizmat backlogs
09:13 brrt \o lizmat
09:13 lizmat brrt o/
09:13 lizmat brrt++ # nice blogpost
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09:14 * moritz should read
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09:15 dalek rakudo/nom: 0385d0f | lizmat++ | docs/ChangeLog:
09:15 dalek rakudo/nom: ChangeLog tweaks
09:15 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0385d0f1dc
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09:18 dalek rakudo/nom: c6d87c3 | lizmat++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
09:18 dalek rakudo/nom: This month's release will be called 'Cologne'
09:18 dalek rakudo/nom:
09:18 dalek rakudo/nom: In appreciation of this week's very successful Niederrhein.PM meeting.
09:18 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c6d87c3498
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09:26 brrt thanks :-)
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09:34 lizmat afk for a few hours&
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09:43 tadzik mathw: this is the most right channel for that that I know of
09:43 tadzik #perl6 is all about rocket launches :)
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09:56 mathw Rocket.new(size => Size::ReallyReallyBig);
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10:50 masak good noon, #perl6
10:51 masak brrt++ # http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2014/12/18/​moarvm-internals-for-the-brave-and-curious/
10:51 ssqq joined #perl6
10:51 masak who wants to do tomorrow? we have a free slot.
10:51 * masak pictures someone reading this and going "oh, it's my turn! time to volunteer!"
10:51 brrt thanks masak :-)
10:52 ssqq nqp-m: ok((?nqp::getlex("&say") == 1), "&say is global routine");
10:52 camelia nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«ok 1 - &say is global routine␤»
10:53 brrt although 215 mov instructions in such a simple routine... that shocked me, really
10:53 ssqq nqp-m: my $sub-name := '&say'; ok((?nqp::getlex($sub-name) == 1), "&say is global routine");
10:53 camelia nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«expected QAST constant; didn't get one␤   at gen/moar/stage2/QAST.nqp:5402  (/home/camelia/rakudo-inst-2/languages/n​qp/lib/QAST.moarvm:as_mast_constant:6)␤ from gen/moar/stage2/QAST.nqp:5390  (/home/camelia/rakudo-inst-2/langua​ges/nqp/lib/QAST.moarvm:as_mast_c…»
11:06 hahainternet o/ masak
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11:18 masak ahoj.
11:19 masak more specifically, we have four slots to fill before the Advent calendar is complete.
11:19 masak I could maybe do one more, but I'd like to see two more slots filled in first... :)
11:20 masak as usual, it would be kind of nice to have something a little extra for the 24 slot.
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11:56 dalek rakudo/nom: 1c88e82 | lizmat++ | docs/ChangeLog:
11:56 dalek rakudo/nom: Mention fixing of OS X flakiness
11:56 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1c88e82b7a
11:56 moritz masak: I'm considering doing a sleepsort for day 23
11:57 moritz masak: 'cause we've had sorting stuff on two 23rd days before
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11:58 lizmat lunch&
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12:03 andreos how to apply a function to an array as it were a list of arguments?
12:04 masak moritz: go for it! :)
12:04 masak andreos: f(|@array)
12:04 andreos m: sub first($car, *@cdr){$car}; say first( | "asdfgh".comb)
12:04 camelia rakudo-moar c6d87c: OUTPUT«a␤»
12:04 andreos thanks
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13:01 jnthn Afternoon, #perl6
13:01 hahainternet hey jnthn
13:01 moritz \o
13:02 hahainternet bringing up a topic from a few days ago, did any progress get made regarding unions/fixed allocs in nativecall? i still haven't had chance to go through the nqp pdf and learn the infrastructure well enough to be of any use
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13:05 nwc10 good UGT heresy, jnthn
13:08 dalek mu: 1ce52da | lizmat++ | misc/perl6advent-2014/schedule:
13:08 dalek mu: Add title of brrt's post
13:08 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/1ce52dac06
13:09 dalek rakudo/nom: 2698598 | lizmat++ | src/core/Mu.pm:
13:09 dalek rakudo/nom: Remove support for bless *, deprecated 1 year ago
13:09 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/269859856b
13:13 dalek rakudo/nom: a71ed88 | jnthn++ | docs/ChangeLog:
13:13 dalek rakudo/nom: Some missing ChangeLog entries.
13:13 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a71ed88749
13:14 lizmat jnthn: the {} zen slice listifies, according to the code ?
13:16 jnthn I thought we said .hash?
13:16 jnthn *sigh*
13:16 lizmat well, when I tried that, I got quite a few spectest failures
13:16 jnthn arrgh
13:16 lizmat let me double check that again in a mo
13:16 jnthn Well, .list is certainly wrong
13:16 jnthn That's worse than it wsa before.
13:17 jnthn So we should back that out if we can't .hash.
13:17 lizmat ok, will do
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13:18 jnthn lismat++
13:18 jnthn uh, lizmat
13:19 jnthn This train internet is so crappy today Im typing blind half the time... :/
13:19 dalek rakudo/nom: e84b99a | lizmat++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
13:19 dalek rakudo/nom: Add a step about removing DEPRECATED code
13:19 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e84b99ab5d
13:20 jnthn Will work on MoarVM release.
13:20 lizmat ok, cool  :-)
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13:30 m_athias jnthn: https://mosh.mit.edu/ makes that a waaaay better
13:32 jnthn m_athias: ooh, nice... I should give it a try :)
13:33 colomon Net::DNS and Net::XMPP failed tests overnight.
13:36 lizmat jnthn: with {} returning SELF.hash, I get errors in t/spec/S32-str/numeric.t
13:36 lizmat m: my $str = ":10<8_>"; +$str
13:36 camelia rakudo-moar 1c88e8: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot convert string to number: malformed ':10' style radix number, expecting '>' after the body in ':10<8⏏_>' (indicated by ⏏)␤   at <unknown>:1  (/home/camelia/rakudo-inst-1/languages/per​l6/runtime/CORE.setting.moarvm:throw:42…»
13:36 lizmat becomes:
13:36 lizmat Odd number of elements found where hash initializer expected
13:37 jnthn That looks like a failure in constructing the error message...
13:37 jnthn Oh, or maybe we're losing a container?
13:37 lizmat not sure yet
13:37 lizmat it's a rather large test file  :-)
13:38 jnthn What happens if we do:
13:38 nwc10 jnthn: maybe if the train stood still, the internet would get better? :-)
13:39 jnthn multi sub postcircumfix:<{ }>( \SELF ) is rw { SELF.hash }
13:39 jnthn multi sub postcircumfix:<{ }>(Associative \SELF ) is rw { SELF }
13:40 lizmat trying
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13:43 abraxxa tadzik: are you interessted in a patch for rakudobrew that lets you set the compiler for moar?
13:44 tadzik abraxxa: I'd rather have something generic that gets passed along to Configure.pl
13:44 tadzik so one can make that --moar-option=different-compiler or whatever
13:44 lizmat jnthn: same errors in that test
13:44 lizmat running full spectest now
13:44 abraxxa tadzik: i did it by cloning moar to moar-clang in line 24
13:45 abraxxa i wanted a generic, additional option first but then realized its moar specific
13:45 tadzik well, rakudo's Configure.pl manages to have backend specific options
13:46 tadzik we could get away with something like --configure-opts
13:46 abraxxa when multiple impls are brewed you should be able to pass different things to them..
13:46 tadzik that too
13:47 tadzik but rakudo's Configure.pl is capable of that, afaik
13:47 tadzik there's --moar-option, --parrot-option...
13:48 abraxxa yeah, so rakudobrew should be able to pass different things to them
13:48 tadzik I don't think rakudo breaks if you don --backends=moar --parrot-option=foo
13:48 abraxxa ah, i see
13:48 tadzik s/don/do/
13:48 lizmat jnthn: more breakage that way
13:48 tadzik if it does, I'm willing to go and change that :P
13:48 tadzik but I don't see why it would
13:49 lizmat looks like I need to specify candidates for all named parameters as well: Unexpected named parameter 'exists' passed
13:49 tadzik so: I don't think that rakudobrew should be concerned as to how to pass different options to different backends
13:49 tadzik just have rakudo do it
13:49 abraxxa ok
13:49 abraxxa clone + github pull request?
13:50 tadzik yes please :)
13:50 abraxxa s/clone/fork/
13:50 tadzik I might be slow to respond, feel free to bother me here
13:50 lizmat m: my %h; %h{}:exists  # jnthn: fails now
13:50 camelia rakudo-moar 1c88e8: ( no output )
13:50 * [Coke] double checks, and the release in jan occurs the week before work travel. whew.
13:51 jnthn :exists on a zen slice?!
13:51 jnthn But yeah...dammit, the Associative beats the :exists.
13:51 jnthn Just back out the .list for now, and the ChangeLog entry then. We'll have to take it in the next release.
13:53 lizmat ok
13:54 dalek rakudo/nom: 1b0e064 | lizmat++ | src/core/hash_slice.pm:
13:54 dalek rakudo/nom: Revert "Make foo[] and foo{} consistent"
13:54 dalek rakudo/nom:
13:54 dalek rakudo/nom: We will need to revisit that for a future release.
13:54 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1b0e0642cd
14:02 abraxxa tadzik: can we please use a module for cli arg handling?
14:03 tadzik abraxxa: I'd much rather not :|
14:03 tadzik oh, unless it's core
14:03 abraxxa is there one? i just looked in 5.20.1 but can't find one
14:03 masak doesn't Perl 6 already have quite a lot of arg handling in the language?
14:03 abraxxa i thought one very old is core, don't remember its name
14:03 abraxxa masak: i uses perl 5 to build perl 6
14:04 masak I see.
14:04 tadzik abraxxa: "Getopt::Long was first released with perl 5"
14:04 abraxxa so why isn't it listed here? https://metacpan.org/release/perl
14:05 abraxxa the corelist is a lie!
14:05 Ulti m: say !???
14:05 camelia rakudo-moar 1c88e8: OUTPUT«Stub code executed  in block <unit> at /tmp/56EnEzsE7K:1␤␤True␤»
14:07 Ulti m: my $var = !!???????; say $var.uc;
14:07 camelia rakudo-moar 1c88e8: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/tK8Fs1antoâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/tK8Fs1anto:1â�¤------> [32mmy $var = !!???????[33mâ��[31m; say $var.uc;[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        postfixâ�¤        i…»
14:07 Ulti m: my $var = !!???; say $var.uc;
14:07 camelia rakudo-moar 1c88e8: OUTPUT«Stub code executed  in block <unit> at /tmp/0neLrfGtlV:1␤␤FALSE␤»
14:07 Ulti heh there is some weird stuff around there
14:07 Ulti I'm guessing the last ?? are a ternary
14:08 Ulti which is why it doesnt like the stub
14:08 lizmat m: !!!!   # similar issue
14:08 camelia rakudo-moar 1c88e8: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/z9XzkdGBnHâ�¤Negation metaoperator not followed by valid infixâ�¤at /tmp/z9XzkdGBnH:1â�¤------> [32m!!!![33mâ��[31m   # similar issue[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤       …»
14:08 lizmat m: say !!!!   # similar issue
14:08 camelia rakudo-moar 1c88e8: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/foUqmZtV8xâ�¤Negation metaoperator not followed by valid infixâ�¤at /tmp/foUqmZtV8x:1â�¤------> [32msay !!!![33mâ��[31m   # similar issue[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤   …»
14:09 sven_123_ joined #perl6
14:16 lizmat jnthn: re: 19f661f3b4092548cd64284c52f2609af3057b43
14:16 lizmat wouldn't it make sense to add a method to Mu with that list of names, and call that
14:16 lizmat and thus make it overridable for a class ?
14:18 lizmat TimToady: I guess 5a06ace5c5c458a78313e32d7235e428486bbe23 is really an API change, so should be emphasized in the release message ?
14:19 lizmat jnthn: re, 7432d6202ede8569cac13ecbfae78afafc915fa4 , wouldn't that be worthy of a advent post ?
14:23 abraxxa tadzik: can the dirname of the installed rakuda be set with rakudobrew?
14:23 tadzik abraxxa: nope
14:23 tadzik maybe it should be :)
14:24 abraxxa would it be easier to extend perlbrew?
14:24 tadzik I don't think so
14:24 abraxxa i'm not very happy with my code but it works
14:24 tadzik I once looked into making a plenv plugin, but it looked like more trouble than it was worth
14:24 abraxxa the error messages are a bit misleading, talk about gcc although i requested clang
14:24 jnthn lizmat: (method on Mu), no, that feels like mixing levels to me...
14:24 abraxxa probing whether your compiler thinks that it is gcc  Can't compile simple gcc probe, so something is badly wrong at build/probe.pm line 92.
14:27 jnthn lizmat: Dunno about a post on that...I mean, it's quite esoteric. :)
14:27 lizmat well, it could serve as documentation, as the documentation atm is quite minimal  :-)
14:27 moritz documentation belongs on doc.perl6.org
14:27 raiph joined #perl6
14:27 masak hard to argue with that.
14:27 lizmat moritz: I meant, until we have documentation  :-)
14:28 lizmat and it would be a bit more hard core than most of the other advent posts  :-)
14:28 lizmat but maybe too hard core  :-)
14:28 jnthn Yeah, it's also a question of when I'd have time to write it.
14:29 abraxxa tadzik: you may look now https://github.com/abraxxa/rakudobrew/commi​t/709af0e795e79000b99351baa7a87bba27c73d11
14:29 abraxxa the previous commit is a whitespace cleanup that will be in the pull request as well
14:29 jnthn Today was my last day of teaching. Tomorrow I need to take care of some christmas shopping and prep for travel to UK. Saturday I'm traveling there. And I'm so exhausted from the last weeks the first thing I'll probably do is get sick. :/
14:29 abraxxa tadzik: i have a meeting now, will read the scrollback afterwards
14:30 masak jnthn: I suggest you skip over getting sick this year.
14:30 lizmat jnthn: ok, gotcha
14:30 lizmat masak: that's not how that works, unfortunately
14:30 lizmat :-(
14:30 masak hey, it was just a suggestion :P
14:30 jnthn masak: I never plan to, it's just a depressingly common pattern. The tireder I am when I go for Christmas break, the more likely I am to quickly catch something or other.
14:31 abraxxa it's a usual pattern that the body backs down when the stress goes away
14:31 jnthn Right.
14:32 moritz abraxxa: aye; my father used to have problems with his teeth each summer vacation for several years in a row
14:32 anaeem1 joined #perl6
14:33 masak it's not so strange, I think. stress keeps you going.
14:33 masak evo devo explanations are fraught, I guess. but maybe stress helped people survive. and when they were safe, they slowed down and got sick.
14:34 masak people who managed to suspend getting sick were more fit and spread through the gene pool.
14:35 moritz it makes a lot of sense if you think of being sick as "maintenance downtime"
14:35 lizmat "health" debt
14:35 moritz but classic medicine teaches us it's all those bad viruses and bacteria that make us sick, and that's kinda an incompatible view
14:35 moritz lizmat: aye
14:35 masak it's probably a mix of that, and the fact that parasites always win.
14:36 masak that is, the body can hold them off, but it's a losing battle.
14:36 lizmat also: meeting people you haven't seen in a while, means new germs  :-)
14:36 masak also, winter. means recycling stale indoor air.
14:36 jnthn Yeah, 'cus people can't hack the cold, dammit. :P
14:37 lizmat personally, I notice this when meeting people with young kids (fresh kindergarten germs!) who I haven't seen for a while  :-)
14:37 masak kids are excellent disease vectors.
14:39 brrt thing about stress is, we know from various sources that it is 'bad', but it is one of these long-term-biology things that we can't quite get our head arround
14:40 brrt otherwise, winter being sickness season is mostly people recycling stale air yeah :-)
14:41 Ulti can someone explain what's going on here
14:42 Ulti m: say !!1
14:42 camelia rakudo-moar 1b0e06: OUTPUT«True␤»
14:42 Ulti m: say !!!1
14:42 camelia rakudo-moar 1b0e06: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/4FKXCtEKkWâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/4FKXCtEKkW:1â�¤------> [32msay !!![33mâ��[31m1[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        postfixâ�¤        infix stopperâ�¤        in…»
14:42 masak that one's correct.
14:42 Ulti why can you do two lots of negation but not more?
14:42 masak because `!!!` is a term.
14:42 jnthn !!! parsers as a term
14:42 masak m: say !!(!1)
14:42 camelia rakudo-moar 1b0e06: OUTPUT«False␤»
14:42 masak m: say !! !1
14:42 camelia rakudo-moar 1b0e06: OUTPUT«False␤»
14:42 masak m: say ! ! ! 1
14:42 camelia rakudo-moar 1b0e06: OUTPUT«False␤»
14:42 Ulti wait so what is !!!  ?
14:42 masak m: !!! "argh!"
14:43 camelia rakudo-moar 1b0e06: OUTPUT«argh!␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/B9YH6N1R8a:1␤␤»
14:43 masak a synonym of "die"
14:43 Ulti o___O
14:43 jnthn m: omg!!!
14:43 camelia rakudo-moar 1b0e06: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/O1mLZCcGGvâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/O1mLZCcGGv:1â�¤------> [32momg[33mâ��[31m!!![0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        postfixâ�¤        infix stopperâ�¤        infi…»
14:43 jnthn Aww :)
14:43 jnthn m: omg !!!
14:43 camelia rakudo-moar 1b0e06: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/8XuV8hG_7yâ�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    omg used at line 1â�¤â�¤Â»
14:43 Ulti and ???
14:43 Ulti ?
14:43 jnthn hah :0
14:43 jnthn :)
14:43 jnthn Ulti: !!! means "die", ??? means "warn", ... means "fail"
14:43 Ulti aha
14:43 jnthn Different levels of stubbiness
14:44 JimmyZ m: ...
14:44 camelia rakudo-moar 1b0e06: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Stub code executed␤   at <unknown>:1  (/home/camelia/rakudo-inst-2/languages/perl6/r​untime/CORE.setting.moarvm:throw:4294967295)␤ from src/gen/m-CORE.setting:13847  (/home/camelia/rakudo-inst-2/langu​ages/perl6/runtime/CORE.setting.…»
14:44 JimmyZ m: !!!
14:44 camelia rakudo-moar 1b0e06: OUTPUT«Stub code executed␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/kBkNhKngqx:1␤␤»
14:44 masak <!!! ??? ...> isn't particularly strangely consistent with anything else.
14:45 Ulti so who ordered !!! and ???
14:45 masak except perhaps very loosely in that I agree with the respective urgencies of those three punctuation marks.
14:45 FROGGS joined #perl6
14:45 Ulti given ?? !! is a thing too that is some serious semantic overload
14:45 masak Ulti: welcome to Perl 6.
14:45 Ulti ;___;
14:45 masak we have Serious Semantic Overload Syndrome.
14:45 masak :D
14:45 lizmat well, fwiw, I would think that most people would use ...
14:46 Ulti it's especially confusing when the warn is evaluated as false
14:46 lizmat and that you actually wouldn't really need !!! and ???
14:46 masak I'd like to recommend https://skillsmatter.com/skillscasts/60​88-the-worst-programming-language-ever to people who enjoy deadpan reverse psychology crossed with language design.
14:46 Ulti masak: thats how I got to this point :D
14:46 Ulti I was just replying to someone on the reddit comments for that talk who called out Perl 6
14:47 Ulti but I think I mostly agree with them :P
14:47 masak lizmat: I only use `...`. and only in roles that I want to act a bit like interfaces.
14:47 JimmyZ m: ??!!!
14:47 camelia rakudo-moar 1b0e06: OUTPUT«Stub code executed␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/AoU5KvFgk6:1␤␤»
14:47 JimmyZ std: ??!!!
14:47 camelia std 76ccee1: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Expecting a term, but found either infix ?? or redundant prefix ?â�¤  (to suppress this message, please use space between ? ?) at /tmp/pjvwTWB7xC line 1:â�¤------> [32m??[33mâ��[31m!!![0mâ�¤Parse failedâ�¤FAILED 00:00 135mâ�¤Â»
14:47 Ulti m: !!???
14:47 camelia rakudo-moar 1b0e06: OUTPUT«Stub code executed  in block <unit> at /tmp/Dt5fAinAj1:1␤␤»
14:47 JimmyZ look, LTA
14:47 masak I think the best part of the above video was that the presenter got cut off at the end, shouting: "PLEASE DON'T WRITE A CO" :P
14:48 Ulti m: say "wow" unless !!???
14:48 camelia rakudo-moar 1b0e06: OUTPUT«Stub code executed  in block <unit> at /tmp/iKxRpctn2b:1␤␤wow␤»
14:48 oetiker joined #perl6
14:48 dalek rakudo/nom: 3d390fb | lizmat++ | src/core/Distro.pm:
14:48 dalek rakudo/nom: Make sure we always have a $*DISTRO.release
14:48 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3d390fb6fe
14:49 Ulti masak lol, the language looked almost reasonable just like all awful languages :) its reasonable enough to actually use for real but make devs cry
14:50 Ulti the problem with every programming language is that regardless of how high level you are, you still have to talk on the computers terms about what you want
14:52 masak Ulti: you should have a look at Haskell. :)
14:53 jnthn masak: So he can talk on mathematicians terms instead? :P
14:54 masak well, it's a counterexample, is my point.
14:54 dalek rakudo/nom: 57faf7a | lizmat++ | docs/ChangeLog:
14:54 dalek rakudo/nom: Remove mention of {} change (there is none yet)
14:54 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/57faf7ad9f
15:18 doublelel joined #perl6
15:26 dalek rakudo/nom: f8267f2 | lizmat++ | src/core/Str.pm:
15:26 dalek rakudo/nom: Streamline :nth(*-1)
15:26 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f8267f2460
15:26 virtualsue joined #perl6
15:29 kaare_ joined #perl6
15:32 Ulti masak all that happens with really different languages is they attempt to simulate a different computer and then get you to write for that instead :P
15:32 Ulti PROLOG being a good example
15:33 masak yes. probably the "imperative" execution model is the only really intuitive one to humans. do this, then do that.
15:33 masak but declarative sublanguages will always have a place in specific domains. that includes Prolog.
15:34 masak includes things like Forth and Haskell as well.
15:34 brrt that is so counterintuitive, and i'm not sure if it doesn't include some 'survivor bias'
15:35 brrt as in, everybody who could grok imperative became a programmer, and those who could not did not
15:35 * vendethiel backlogs again
15:35 masak brrt: I'm not sure that weakens the argument in any way.
15:35 masak brrt: "X is just intuitive because the survivors consider it intuitive" -- well, yeah.
15:36 masak same reason sunsets are beautiful, I guess.
15:36 brrt well, the counterargument is that because computer languages are imperative people who would've liked another paradigm better (declarative) have already left
15:37 brrt i'm not saying that it's true. i like my imperative programs
15:37 masak there is still hope, though. my argument only goes for what becomes mainstream and the main slang.
15:37 masak as I pointed out, there is still room for more exotic runtime models at the fringes.
15:38 masak and that's something to cherish and exploit.
15:38 brrt and embrace and assimilate if you're perl
15:38 brrt :-)
15:38 geekosaur there is some anecdata for beginners finding declarative languages easier to comprehend than imperative; I'm not aware of any serious exploration of that, though
15:39 masak geekosaur: would be interesting to find one.
15:39 masak I mean, an evo devo explanation for *that* would be that imperative looks like stories by the campfire.
15:39 Ulti I dont get why prolog isnt more popular in robotics, it makes writing control systems quite natural human(X) :- dontkill(X)
15:40 masak "and then they did a GO TO and handled the exceptional condition!"
15:40 geekosaur Ulti: prolog doesn't compile down to embedded processors well
15:40 Ulti it could if the embedded processor could execute prolog :P
15:40 geekosaur there's also the usual problem with real time control vs. garbage collection
15:41 rurban more the exponential nature of backtracking
15:41 geekosaur that too, yes
15:41 rurban new-style SMT solvers are usually better than prolog
15:42 geekosaur "real time" is the real constraint, in any case
15:42 rurban like z3
15:42 FROGGS joined #perl6
15:42 geekosaur with memory usage still something of a close second
15:43 * brrt wonders what masak expands evo devo to
15:43 rurban I'm thinking to add a solver into p2 core (minisat), because I'd need it for compiler optimizations anyway
15:44 rurban but simple prolog|ml like declarative matchers and unifiers don't need that much, and are expressible with simple = or =~ and varioables on the rhs
15:44 dalek nqp: 4394713 | lizmat++ | tools/build/MOAR_REVISION:
15:44 dalek nqp: Bump MOAR_REVISION to release 2014.12
15:44 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/439471306f
15:45 rurban and _ on the lhs
15:46 treehug88 joined #perl6
15:48 brrt (mosh is udp based. that's clever)
15:50 abraxxa tadzik: if the code is ok i'll send the pull request
15:50 raiph joined #perl6
15:54 hoelzro morning #perl6
15:55 lizmat hoelzro o/
15:56 brrt \o hoelzro
15:57 hoelzro o/ lizmat, brrt
16:00 hoelzro m: class Foo {} ; my $f = Foo.new; say $f[0]
16:00 camelia rakudo-moar 57faf7: OUTPUT«Foo.new()␤»
16:00 hoelzro when did that start behaving that way?
16:01 PerlJam which part?
16:01 PerlJam m: class Foo {} ; my $f = Foo.new; say $f;
16:01 camelia rakudo-moar 57faf7: OUTPUT«Foo.new()␤»
16:02 PerlJam m: class Foo {} ; my $f = Foo.new; say $f[0][0][0];
16:02 camelia rakudo-moar 57faf7: OUTPUT«Foo.new()␤»
16:02 TuxCM YOU DID VERY WELL THIS MONTH: (tiny flood)
16:02 TuxCM i686      i686      x68_64   x68_64   x68_64
16:02 TuxCM 20141007  20141014  20141105 20141111 20141218
16:02 TuxCM ------------------  -------- --------- --------- -------- --------
16:02 TuxCM Text::CSV::Easy_XS     0.022     0.021     0.037    0.018    0.020
16:02 TuxCM Text::CSV::Easy_PP     0.018     0.022     0.028    0.016    0.033
16:02 TuxCM Text::CSV_XS           0.038     0.039     0.046    0.039    0.042
16:02 TuxCM Text::CSV_PP           0.651     0.535     0.533    0.516    0.534
16:02 TuxCM Pegex::CSV             1.947     1.420     1.387    1.371    1.401
16:02 TuxCM csv.pl                12.543     8.437     9.152    9.130    8.195
16:02 TuxCM test.pl              256.985   201.621    71.847   72.221   58.765
16:02 TuxCM test-t.pl              -         -         -       72.024   58.673
16:02 TuxCM the last three are perl6
16:02 TuxCM note the drop from 257 to 58 seconds! amazing
16:03 masak :)
16:04 hoelzro PerlJam: why does postcircumfix:<[ ]> work on a non-Positional?
16:04 masak brrt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ev​olutionary_developmental_biology
16:06 dalek rakudo/nom: 4dfc29f | lizmat++ | docs/ChangeLog:
16:06 dalek rakudo/nom: Some more ChangeLog updates
16:06 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4dfc29f4a7
16:07 PerlJam hoelzro: we've treated an item as a "list of 1" for quite a while now.  As to why, I'm not sure I can explain it right off.
16:07 hoelzro see, my @list = $item makes sense to me
16:08 hoelzro $item[0] does not
16:08 hoelzro and I feel that the former has been valid for as long as I remember, but the latter is more recent
16:08 lizmat hoelzro: not only [0] works always, you can call .end on anytthing
16:09 lizmat m: say 42.end
16:09 camelia rakudo-moar 57faf7: OUTPUT«0␤»
16:09 lizmat so you can always do something like:
16:09 lizmat m: my $a = 42; for 0 .. $a.end { say $a[$_] }
16:09 camelia rakudo-moar 57faf7: OUTPUT«42␤»
16:10 hoelzro that seems...odd to me
16:11 dalek rakudo/nom: d01c70d | lizmat++ | docs/ChangeLog:
16:11 dalek rakudo/nom: Mention we have more signals on Moar
16:11 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d01c70def2
16:11 lizmat hoelzro: if $a is returned from a sub, maybe it becomes clearer?
16:12 gtodd joined #perl6
16:14 brrt ah thanks :-)
16:14 brrt i thought something like that
16:16 hoelzro lizmat: well, if I'm returning from a sub, and I'm assigning to a positional container, I expect the item to be assigned to $container[0]
16:17 hoelzro I just don't know of a circumstance where $a[0] is useful to have if $a isn't a Positional
16:18 mr-foobar joined #perl6
16:18 lizmat m: my @a=^10; say @a[0].WHAT; say @a[0,1].WHAT
16:18 camelia rakudo-moar 57faf7: OUTPUT«(Int)␤(Parcel)␤»
16:19 lizmat m: my @i = 0; my @a=^10; say @a[@i].WHAT
16:19 camelia rakudo-moar 57faf7: OUTPUT«(Parcel)␤»
16:21 brrt left #perl6
16:21 dalek rakudo/nom: bfbef0b | lizmat++ | docs/announce/2014.12.md:
16:21 dalek rakudo/nom: Add 2014.12 announcement
16:21 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/bfbef0b5c7
16:22 lizmat ^^^ comments welcome!
16:24 dalek nqp: b7c3fd9 | lizmat++ | VERSION:
16:24 dalek nqp: bump VERSION to 2014.12
16:24 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/b7c3fd9e1f
16:24 hekmek joined #perl6
16:27 hoelzro lizmat++ # release
16:40 PerlJam lizmat:  should the announcement have a link to parrot.org too?  I don't know if we've ever done that before, but it struck me as odd that we'd have a link for moarvm and not one for parrot
16:41 lizmat good point, will add
16:50 virtualsue joined #perl6
16:52 lizmat ok, I'm not getting NQP built from a tar-file:
16:53 lizmat In file included from 3rdparty/libuv/include/uv-unix.h:55:
16:53 lizmat 3rdparty/libuv/include/uv-darwin.h:26:11: fatal error: 'mach/mach.h' file not
16:53 lizmat found
16:53 lizmat # include <mach/mach.h>
16:53 lizmat oddly enough, there is no 3rdparty/libuv directory
16:54 lizmat this seems to be a feature of Xcode 6.1.1
16:55 rurban on darwin?
16:55 lizmat yup
16:55 Woodi hallo today :)
16:56 rurban libuv's configure normally catches those include path for me, macport gcc and xcode cc
16:56 lizmat also for Xcode 6.1.1 ?
16:57 * geekosaur wonders if precompiled headers are in use somewhere
16:57 japhb lizmat: Has 2014.12 already been cut, or still in progress?
16:58 lizmat the VERSION has been updated, but not yet tagged
16:58 japhb OK, thanks
16:58 rurban cannot try now, my wife has my laptop
16:58 lizmat japhb: any suggestions ?
17:00 japhb lizmat: suggestions for what?  The Xcode problem?  (Because I know almost zero about Xcode, except that my little bit of interaction with it was not a positive experience).
17:00 lizmat ah, ok
17:00 lizmat found a solution: adding a symlink in Moarvm/3rdparty/libuv/include to /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Develo​per/Platforms/MacOSX.platform/Developer​/SDKs/MacOSX10.9.sdk/usr/include/mach
17:01 Woodi some days ago I was in our family bakery's office and was thinking about that imperative vs declarative languages - do being declarative means that on some low level there need to be programmed imperative actions have something done ? and then: knoc*knock There is no sugar...  -- was this a "declarative" approach to a problem ?
17:04 masak Woodi: "declarative" to me means that you write a specification, not instructions. it's kind of defined by what it isn't.
17:07 Woodi so html is declarative... but still something need to render it and on some level imperative things are executing ?
17:08 masak I'm not sure HTML qualifies in the first place. not if we're talking programming languages. HTML is markup.
17:09 masak a good example might be the class/has/method/submethod keywords in Perl 6. they're declarative: they're a specification of a class, not instructions on how to put the class together.
17:09 masak SQL might qualify as declarative as well.
17:10 masak still no takers for tomorrow's advent post?
17:12 masak many of the APIs for promises are declarative. they free you of the minutia of handling things in sequential order, and can turn "pyramids of doom" into nice linear structures.
17:12 dalek nqp: 8de8f7b | lizmat++ | README.pod:
17:12 dalek nqp: Add my fix to building on OS X
17:12 dalek nqp:
17:12 dalek nqp: In the hope it will be helpful.  I don't see another fix yet.  And I'm
17:12 dalek nqp: apparently the only person suffering from this (so far)
17:12 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/8de8f7b090
17:13 masak that's a curious case, because these declarative APIs are found in the middle of an imperative language.
17:13 lizmat masak: I'm too busy with the release
17:13 masak lizmat: I understand completely. I was thinking somebody who isn't releasing Rakudo today ;)
17:16 lizmat I have a NQP release tarball ready to upload
17:16 lizmat can someone do that ?
17:20 dalek rakudo/nom: 412e5f5 | lizmat++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
17:20 dalek rakudo/nom: [release] bump NQP revision
17:20 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/412e5f5e7f
17:20 dalek rakudo/nom: 76eb31b | lizmat++ | VERSION:
17:20 dalek rakudo/nom: [release] bump VERSION
17:20 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/76eb31b45d
17:23 masak PerlJam, moritz: ping
17:23 Woodi lizmat: is it R* maybe ?
17:23 masak ^ can either of you upload a tarball for lizmat?
17:23 masak Woodi: no, just R.
17:24 lizmat but since we have fixed the OS X flakiness, maybe we should do a R* again  :-)
17:24 lizmat but after this
17:24 lizmat :-)
17:24 * Woodi just arrive home and now wondering: Is pressing Play on cd-player is imperative ?
17:25 ab5tract joined #perl6
17:25 lizmat .oO( it is if the player is functional ? )
17:26 Woodi lizmat: just after last R* was nice performance in R, if my memory is correct... would be nice to have one
17:27 Woodi it do play songs, if you ask about that :)
17:28 Woodi bot how would look like declarative cd-player ? here are buttons and CD. EOD. ? :)
17:29 njmurphy left #perl6
17:30 Woodi ow, another one... few days ago I found that Freenet is part of Dark Net! scary...
17:30 Woodi Freenode I mean
17:33 atroxaper joined #perl6
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17:34 dalek rakudo/nom: 1f301e6 | lizmat++ | docs/announce/2014.12.md:
17:34 dalek rakudo/nom: Add reference to parrot.org, PerlJam++
17:34 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1f301e6c6f
17:38 dalek rakudo/nom: e487d72 | lizmat++ | docs/announce/2014.12.md:
17:38 dalek rakudo/nom: Add troubleshooting section
17:38 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e487d722da
17:38 masak I seem to be able to do an advent blog post tomorrow.
17:39 masak but I would prefer it if someone else signed up. then my promise kicks in and I can do day-after-tomorrow.
17:40 lizmat dinner&
17:41 masak either way, I can work on a draft tonight.
17:45 moritz masak: ping
17:45 moritz masak: erm, pong
17:46 masak lizmat would like to upload an nqp.
17:47 moritz then she should do that :-)
17:48 moritz there's an ssh pubkey "liz@LizyPro.local" in the upload user
17:48 masak ooh
17:48 telex joined #perl6
17:48 masak :)
17:48 masak moritz, strict but fair BOFH :P
17:49 moritz masak: as is an cmasak@gm... key
17:49 moritz I mean, I can upload it too, when I know where the tarball is
17:49 moritz or add more keys
17:52 masak seems lizmat is away for dinner right now. I guess she had missed (as I did) that there are pubkeys in the upload user ;)
17:53 dalek nqp: e089718 | moritz++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
17:53 dalek nqp: release guide: update the list of known uploaders
17:53 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/e08971890b
17:54 dalek nqp: e3dcf53 | moritz++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
17:54 dalek nqp: Oops, no need to list FROGGS twice
17:54 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/e3dcf53515
17:55 dalek rakudo/nom: 0a12e17 | moritz++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
17:55 dalek rakudo/nom: release guide: update list of known uploaders
17:55 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0a12e17b6b
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18:27 lucas_ release day! \o/
18:27 lucas_ I like updating my tarballs. Thanks in advance!
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18:59 PerlJam masak: pong.  If lizmat has issues uploading, I'll be aroundish and able to upload (FYI)
19:00 masak good, good
19:00 masak moritz informs me it should be no problem. we'll see.
19:02 DarthGandalf joined #perl6
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19:07 lizmat thanks PerlJam++ for uploading NQP
19:07 masak he hasn't yet.
19:07 lizmat I think he has ?
19:08 masak ok, but not as far as I know :)
19:08 masak moritz (in the backlog) says you already have the ackles for it, though.
19:08 lizmat yes, server side
19:08 lizmat client side, I have some keychain issues  :-(
19:08 lizmat don't want to try fixing that tonight
19:08 masak lizmat: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2014-12-18#i_9825720
19:09 raiph joined #perl6
19:09 PerlJam masak: http://rakudo.org/downloads/nqp/nqp-2014.12.tar.gz  # now you know  :)
19:09 lizmat masak: yeah, I know... but when trying to do the scp, it fails
19:09 masak oki
19:10 masak PerlJam++
19:10 masak m: sub f1 { say "first"; False }; sub f2 { say "sekkind"; True }; say f1() && f2()
19:10 camelia rakudo-moar 0a12e1: OUTPUT«first␤False␤»
19:10 masak m: sub f1 { say "first"; False }; sub f2 { say "sekkind"; True }; f1() && f2()
19:10 camelia rakudo-moar 0a12e1: OUTPUT«first␤»
19:10 masak m: sub f1 { say "first"; False }; sub f2 { say "sekkind"; True }; f1() ?& f2()
19:10 camelia rakudo-moar 0a12e1: OUTPUT«first␤sekkind␤»
19:10 * masak thought so
19:11 masak m: sub f1 { say "first"; False }; sub f2 { say "sekkind"; True }; f1() & f2()
19:11 camelia rakudo-moar 0a12e1: OUTPUT«first␤sekkind␤»
19:14 * lizmat is now testing the rakudo tar ball
19:16 masak S03:2530 says this about `and`: "In list context forces a false return to mean C<()>."
19:16 synopsebot Link: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S03.html#line_2530
19:16 masak what does that mean in Perl 6, "in list context"?
19:16 masak is it a fossil?
19:17 masak m: sub f1 { say "first"; fail }; sub f2 { say "sekkind" }; f1() andthen f2()
19:17 camelia rakudo-moar 0a12e1: OUTPUT«first␤»
19:19 lizmat masak: feels like a fossil to me
19:19 * masak removes
19:19 lizmat at least the wording
19:20 masak eech, the phrase 'list context' occurs 26 times in S03.
19:23 [Coke] are there any kinds of contexts left in perl6 that aren't just notional?
19:23 lizmat 88 times in total in synopses
19:23 masak [Coke]: good question.
19:24 masak not in the literal Perl 5 sense, I think.
19:25 masak wow, S03 postulates a statement_control:<ACCEPTS> macro -- I don't recall seeing that before.
19:25 [Coke] I hear "sink context" a lot... and that might actually be right, since I think we are checking to see if the return value is used or not. (or, is it different from void context? Iunno)
19:25 PerlJam 90 if you count the two occurences where it's "List context" rather than "list context"
19:25 masak ...but it's textual :/
19:25 PerlJam Just for grins: https://gist.github.com/per​lpilot/7ed197a4167cc1e4b40f
19:26 lizmat .oO( that gives quite some context )
19:27 * masak .oO( Perl 6 is often in lol context, but sometimes the jokes fall in flat context )
19:27 lizmat .oO( I haz a sinking feeling )
19:27 masak amazing we don't have a "troll context" yet.
19:27 PerlJam I'm slightly amazed that we have 7 occurences of "flat context"
19:28 masak m: sub f1 { say "first"; False }; sub f2 { say "sekkind"; False }; f1() R&& f2()
19:28 camelia rakudo-moar 0a12e1: OUTPUT«sekkind␤first␤»
19:28 masak && loses its short-circuiting if you R it?
19:28 PerlJam apparently
19:29 masak is that spec, or just an accident?
19:29 masak TimToady: ^
19:29 lizmat away while stresstests run their course&
19:29 masak lizmat++ # avoiding stress
19:30 PerlJam lizmat: if you're going jogging, that would have been the perfect phrase to use  ;)
19:31 spider-mario joined #perl6
19:31 masak I see S03 talking about ops losing their short-circuiting behavior when []'d. but nothing about if they're R'd.
19:36 PerlJam m: sub f1 { say "first"; False }; sub f2 { say "sekkind"; False }; f1() RR&& f2()
19:36 camelia rakudo-moar 0a12e1: OUTPUT«first␤sekkind␤»
19:39 bartolin masak: do you think it's worth to adjust two (currently not working) examples from the perl6 book? there were two RT tickets in october and I made a PR to adjust the examples: https://github.com/perl6/book/pull/82
19:42 masak bartolin: by all means, merge any improvements.
19:43 dalek book: c27d240 | usev6++ | src/subs-n-sigs.pod:
19:43 dalek book: Fix example in 4.8 Unpacking
19:43 dalek book: Discovered by 宋文泰 in https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=122917
19:43 dalek book: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/c27d240cf0
19:43 atroxaper joined #perl6
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19:44 bartolin thanks, masak++
19:44 dalek joined #perl6
19:44 masak bartolin++
19:45 masak m: say 1 [&atan] 1
19:45 camelia rakudo-moar 0a12e1: OUTPUT«Too many positionals passed; expected 1 argument but got 2␤  in sub atan at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4451␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/G9FDyLqyu8:1␤␤»
19:45 masak m: say 1 [&atan2] 1
19:45 camelia rakudo-moar 0a12e1: OUTPUT«0.785398163397448␤»
19:45 bartolin also moritz++ ;-)
19:47 FlipBill joined #perl6
19:47 [Sno] joined #perl6
19:48 bartolin I've got another question: is there a preferred way to write test for the REPL? I've seen quite a few tickets which are about a specific behaviour when using the REPL -- and most of them are lacking tests.
19:49 masak advent post draft provisional name: "Snow white and the seven conditionals"
19:55 bartolin btw: I really enjoy reading the advent posts. @advent-bloggers»++
19:55 masak if only there were more...
20:00 tinyblak_ joined #perl6
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20:15 dalek roast: d91bcc4 | usev6++ | S03-metaops/hyper.t:
20:15 dalek roast: Remove duplicate test for unary postfix hyper operator
20:15 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/d91bcc4e1b
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20:27 lizmat PerlJam++ for uploading the tarball
20:27 lizmat mail with announcement sent
20:28 masak lizmat++
20:29 moritz lizmat: do you need another ssh key added on the rakudo.org server?
20:29 lizmat moritz: tomorrow, after I upgraded to Yosemite
20:29 lizmat if that's ok with you  :-
20:29 lizmat )
20:31 bcode joined #perl6
20:32 moritz lizmat: it is
20:32 lizmat WP entry updated
20:34 dalek rakudo/nom: 30edf7f | lizmat++ | docs/announce/2014.12.md:
20:34 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix oops so that we can copy next announce
20:34 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/30edf7faa2
20:34 lizmat everybody have the appropriate amount of fun!
20:35 lizmat http://rakudo.org/downloads/​rakudo/rakudo-2014.12.tar.gz   # download the tarball
20:35 bartolin lizmat++
20:42 * lizmat hopes to see someone pick up a R* release soon
20:42 bcode joined #perl6
20:43 dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 27 commits to rakudo/newio by lizmat
20:56 masak advent blog post draft underway.
20:57 night0x joined #perl6
20:57 night0x hello
20:58 masak hi, night0x
20:58 night0x where should I start to learn perl6
20:59 masak "Begin at the beginning," the King said gravely, "and go on till you come to the end: then stop."
20:59 night0x okay
20:59 masak night0x: have you seen the book?
21:00 night0x no
21:00 masak http://github.com/perl6/book
21:00 night0x what's that?
21:00 masak it's an (unfinished) book about Perl 6.
21:00 masak there's also http://doc.perl6.org/
21:00 masak and http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/
21:01 raydiak http://perl6.org/documentation/ has a lot of good links too
21:01 masak and http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/
21:01 masak those are all good starting points.
21:02 night0x Oh, thks
21:02 masak oh, and http://learnxinyminutes.com/docs/perl6/
21:02 masak last but not least, we're here, warm-blooded, and ready to help with any questions you might have.
21:03 * masak winks: 😉
21:03 night0x it's so nice of you :)
21:04 masak don't mention it.
21:04 masak good luck learning about Perl 6, and stop by often! :D
21:04 * vendethiel winks as well
21:05 vendethiel Ha, damn, I forgot to push my revisions to the learnx.
21:05 masak masak => 😉 😉 <== vendethiel
21:05 night0x I found there are several VMs for perl6. How to choice?
21:05 night0x any suggestions?
21:05 masak choose moarvm.
21:05 masak unless your boss is forcing you to use JVM.
21:06 vendethiel masak: why'd I get two arrows :P?
21:07 masak I ran out of the short type of arrow.
21:07 moritz what's a proper way to do a one-time, concurrency-friendly sleep?
21:08 lizmat sleep(1) ?
21:08 masak if `sleep` isn't concurrency-friendly, then something is wrong with it.
21:08 moritz isn't there a .delay or .interval or so?
21:09 vendethiel masak: do you have a good idea for a possible p6advent I might do?
21:09 dalek perl6.org: 0c1a66b | raydiak++ | source/documentation/index.html:
21:09 dalek perl6.org: Add 2014 advent calendar link to /documentation
21:09 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/p​erl6.org/commit/0c1a66b03c
21:10 lizmat moritz: what's wrong with sleep(1) ?
21:10 moritz lizmat: does sleep block the current thread?
21:10 masak if it doesn't, then something is wrong with it.
21:11 lizmat internallu, it calls nqp::sleep
21:11 lizmat I assume that knows what to do on Moar to be conc friendly
21:13 jnthn I'm pretty sure nqp::sleep delegates fairly directly to the system call.
21:14 jnthn It will block a thread. That's not always good. The easy way to say "do something a bit in the future" is like Promise.in(10).then({ do_stuff })
21:15 jnthn But if blocking the thread is fine, then use sleep. :)
21:17 shgdfgdfhg joined #perl6
21:17 shgdfgdfhg atta oing
21:17 shgdfgdfhg hay
21:17 * lizmat is off to have an appropriate amount of fun
21:17 shgdfgdfhg how do i do that
21:17 shgdfgdfhg how
21:18 * masak hovers over the "kick" button
21:18 shgdfgdfhg nm moar'
21:18 shgdfgdfhg no shit
21:18 jnthn lizmat++ # release
21:20 PerlJam lizmat++ every once in a while you should have a wildly inappropriate amount of fun too  :)
21:21 erdic joined #perl6
21:22 woolfy Fun means this time, one or more episodes of the tv-series Bones, with fresh tea, and maybe some 16-year old whisky, and some nougat.  Yoohoo.
21:22 woolfy lizmat+= for good ideas...
21:22 woolfy :-)
21:23 jnthn woolfy: += needs a term to the right... :P
21:23 jnthn .oO( lizmat+=Inf )
21:23 PerlJam heh
21:24 bartolin . o O ( lizmat+=2014.12 )
21:24 woolfy darn, should have been lizmat++
21:24 woolfy but eternal lizmat without eternal woolfy is no fun...
21:25 PerlJam woolfy: So ... when are you going to do a release?  :)
21:31 ptc_p61 joined #perl6
21:35 dalek mu: c632207 | moritz++ | misc/perl6advent-2014/schedule:
21:35 dalek mu: Advent: Claim day 23 (Sleepsort)
21:35 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/c63220790f
21:36 timotimo hm, we didn't have sleep sort in the advent calendar yet?
21:36 moritz grep -i sleep misc/perl6advent-20*/schedule # didn't turn up anything
21:37 atroxaper joined #perl6
21:38 timotimo OK :)
21:38 moritz also did a quick search on the website, nothing
21:39 masak Scheduled for
21:39 masak 12/19/2014 0:01
21:40 masak advent post scheduled for tomorrow.
21:40 moritz masak: please add it to the schedule in mu
21:40 masak sure.
21:40 masak I'm not saving your bacon again on Saturday, #perl6! you will have to find someone else.
21:41 moritz masak++
21:41 dalek mu: b113141 | masak++ | misc/perl6advent-2014/schedule:
21:41 dalek mu: [schedule] add myself for tomorrow
21:41 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/b113141998
21:42 masak the post is in Wordpress, in the usual place. feel free to review and give early feedback.
21:42 moritz ok, I have the code that I want to write about for day 23
21:44 gfldex joined #perl6
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21:52 night0x joined #perl6
21:52 masak LOL! my http://www.amazon.com/Let-Over-​Lambda-Doug-Hoyte/dp/1435712757 has arrived!
21:53 vendethiel niice :)
21:54 masak macros, here I come!
21:55 masak 'night, #perl6
21:57 [Sno] joined #perl6
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22:09 pmurias joined #perl6
22:09 pmurias hi
22:19 ab5tract joined #perl6
22:21 timotimo moritz: are we planning to get https working for p6c.org?
22:27 gtodd LOL
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