Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2015-03-16

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:52 dalek doc: 4d18abf | hoelzro++ | lib/Type/Supply.pod:
01:52 dalek doc: s/offset/delay/ for Supply.interval
01:52 dalek doc:
01:52 dalek doc: 'delay' is more accurate given the method's time-based nature.
01:52 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/4d18abf493
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02:45 dalek ecosystem: eb9d31d | retupmoca++ | META.list:
02:45 dalek ecosystem: Add Data::ICal
02:45 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/e​cosystem/commit/eb9d31d9ff
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06:32 dalek perl6-most-wanted: 4a259fe | (Tom Browder)++ | most-wanted/modules.md:
06:32 dalek perl6-most-wanted: add two desired modules found on CPAN
06:32 dalek perl6-most-wanted: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6​-most-wanted/commit/4a259fee7a
06:32 dalek perl6-most-wanted: b972643 | (Tom Browder)++ | most-wanted/modules.md:
06:32 dalek perl6-most-wanted: modify
06:32 dalek perl6-most-wanted: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6​-most-wanted/commit/b972643aee
06:32 dalek perl6-most-wanted: 3902f77 | Adrian++ | most-wanted/modules.md:
06:32 dalek perl6-most-wanted: Merge pull request #2 from tbrowder/master
06:32 dalek perl6-most-wanted:
06:32 dalek perl6-most-wanted: Add new modules wanted
06:32 dalek perl6-most-wanted: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6​-most-wanted/commit/3902f77be2
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06:53 raydiak good night #perl6
06:53 FROGGS gnight raydiak
06:54 raydiak good morning FROGGS :)
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07:19 dalek nqp/install-dir-layout: 8564111 | moritz++ | / (3 files):
07:19 dalek nqp/install-dir-layout: Install dir layout: replace "languages" with "share"
07:19 dalek nqp/install-dir-layout:
07:19 dalek nqp/install-dir-layout: on MoarVM only, atm
07:19 dalek nqp/install-dir-layout: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/8564111fd2
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07:45 bartolin FTR, I opened a ticket for the bug with typed arrays from yesterday: RT #124079
07:45 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=124079
07:46 [Tux] jnthn, your MultiRange was helpful, but your gather on method list returned entries twice in overlapping ranges
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07:46 [Tux] My solution is https://github.com/Tux/CSV​/blob/master/test-t.pl#L50
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08:19 psch o/
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08:20 psch a hint! «sub f (int $x is rw) { $x + 1 }; my int $x = 1; say f $x» *doesn't* NPE/SEGV with --optimize=off
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08:24 moritz m: sub f (int $x is rw) { $x + 1 }; my int $x = 1; say f $x
08:24 camelia rakudo-moar 97215d: OUTPUT«2␤»
08:25 psch ...on jvm :s
08:27 psch it NPEs when run with perl6-j and SEGVs when the debugger is attached and used in any meaningful manner around the spot where it would NPE
08:27 psch afair java 1.8 just straight NPEs, i think donaldh++ confirmed that
08:28 * moritz gehts the NPE too
08:28 moritz *gets
08:28 dalek rakudo/install-dir-layout: 7920c16 | moritz++ | / (5 files):
08:28 dalek rakudo/install-dir-layout: Install dir layout: replace /languages/ with /share/
08:28 dalek rakudo/install-dir-layout:
08:28 dalek rakudo/install-dir-layout: MoarVM only so far
08:28 dalek rakudo/install-dir-layout: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7920c16b8d
08:28 dalek rakudo/install-dir-layout: 1c58dd2 | moritz++ | tools/build/ (2 files):
08:28 dalek rakudo/install-dir-layout: Tweak install layout for the JVM
08:28 dalek rakudo/install-dir-layout: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1c58dd2691
08:28 psch err, 1.8 SEGVs even without debugger it was
08:30 psch it looks like it's not the call => callstatic replacement, so it should be inlining?
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08:30 psch inlining of &infix:<+> that is
08:31 dalek nqp/install-dir-layout: 216b72e | moritz++ | tools/build/ (2 files):
08:31 dalek nqp/install-dir-layout: Adjust install dirs on the JVM
08:31 dalek nqp/install-dir-layout: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/216b72eb5b
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08:57 * TimToady slept too hard, now he'll have to be awake through his talk tonight...
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09:00 psch yup, turning Optimizer.inline_call into a noop makes the snippet run without problems
09:00 psch ...i don't think that's a sensible solution
09:00 moritz psch++ # debugging
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09:01 psch but the problem is probably somewhere else anyway, and the inlining only makes it come up there
09:01 psch S02-types/native.t still fails, even with the optimizer change
09:02 psch there's apparently at least two bugs in the nativeref code on jvm
09:03 psch or one bug that has multiple symptoms that look somewhat unrelated...
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09:16 lizmat pmichaud: re http://irclog.perlgeek.de/p​erl6/2015-03-15#i_10284492 and $?BITS: $*KERNEL is rather heavy in its creation, and I haven't been able to make a $?KERNEL yet that doesn't break precomp  :-(
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09:31 dalek rakudo/nom: 748e695 | lizmat++ | src/core/Int.pm:
09:31 dalek rakudo/nom: Make $?BITS only visible inside Int
09:31 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/748e6952b7
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10:37 dalek roast: 57e1f3c | lizmat++ | S09-typed-arrays/native-int.t:
10:37 dalek roast: Expanded native int tests
10:37 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/57e1f3c597
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10:53 moritz http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2z6x​vd/why_is_it_hard_to_write_a_compiler_for_perl_6/ my blog post is doing astonishingly well on reddit
10:53 moritz like, currently top position in r/programming
10:54 psch moritz++
10:54 psch just saw that as well
10:55 Ven joined #perl6
10:55 psch the one comment by combinatorylogic kind of deserves an answer, imo, even though it's nearly nothing but bait
10:55 psch (but i'm not one to argue on the internet)
10:56 psch ah, and it got an answer between me seeing it and talking about it here :)
10:57 arnsholt Eh, pointless Lisp stuff
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11:02 psch i am reminded of the Blub discussion in here yesterday
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11:19 lizmat m: my $a := int.new[int]   # wondering whether this should also work ?
11:19 camelia rakudo-moar 748e69: OUTPUT«No such method 'BUILDALLPLAN' for invocant of type 'Perl6::Metamodel::NativeHOW'␤  in method BUILDALL at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:989␤  in method bless at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:981␤  in method new at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:967␤  in block <unit> at /…»
11:20 lizmat m: my @a := array.new[int]; say @a.perl   # like this ?
11:20 camelia rakudo-moar 748e69: OUTPUT«Must parameterize array[T] with a type before creating it␤  in method validate-parameterized at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:11383␤  in method new at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:11371␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/Ci1qQyHXdb:1␤␤»
11:20 lizmat m: my @a := array[int].new; say @a.perl   # like this ?
11:20 camelia rakudo-moar 748e69: OUTPUT«array[int].new()␤»
11:20 lizmat m: my $a := int[int].new   # wondering whether this should also work ?
11:20 camelia rakudo-moar 748e69: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot find method 'parameterize'␤»
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11:42 DrForr Howdy. I'm not trying to reignite the flamewar over spacing, but given complex numbers like 2+3i, is there a whitespace-free way to write that if '3' were a variable?
11:42 DrForr ${x}i was my first thought but it appears to be unsupported.
11:43 DrForr I suspect that would require a Slang which I'm not going to be able to write in the next few hours :)
11:43 psch m: my $x = 3; say 2+($x)i # ?
11:43 camelia rakudo-moar 748e69: OUTPUT«2+3i␤»
11:44 psch m: my $x = 3; my $y = 2+($x)i; say $y.WHAT
11:44 camelia rakudo-moar 748e69: OUTPUT«(Complex)␤»
11:44 DrForr Ah, I'd forgotten. It's the simple things.
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11:44 DrForr And I did that with (sin( $θ/2 ))i last night.
11:44 moritz my: my $x = 3; say 2 + $x\i;
11:44 moritz m: my $x = 3; say 2 + $x\i;
11:45 camelia rakudo-moar 748e69: OUTPUT«2+3i␤»
11:45 DrForr I think I like the escaped version better, thanks.
11:46 DrForr Excellent. One more pass to make sure I remember what the hell I'm talking about, then I can get back to work.
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12:02 venki hi
12:03 venki i am a perl 5 programmer for past 6 years
12:03 venki want to help in perl 6 or perl 5 development
12:03 venki may i know how can i be helpful
12:04 lizmat m: 'my num32 @arr = 1.1e0,1.2e0,1.3e0; my num32 $s = 0e0; for @arr { $s += $_ }; say $s   # jnthn, seems num32 is busted for meta ops
12:04 camelia rakudo-moar 748e69: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/HBw25N9Z3E␤Unable to parse expression in single quotes; couldn't find final "'" ␤at /tmp/HBw25N9Z3E:1␤------> 3nthn, seems num32 is busted for meta ops7⏏5<EOL>␤    expecting any of:␤        pref…»
12:04 lizmat m: my num32 @arr = 1.1e0,1.2e0,1.3e0; my num32 $s = 0e0; for @arr { $s += $_ }; say $s   # jnthn, seems num32 is busted for meta ops
12:04 camelia rakudo-moar 748e69: OUTPUT«-8589934592␤»
12:05 lizmat m: my num32 @arr = 1.1e0,1.2e0,1.3e0; my num32 $s; for @arr { $s += $_ }; say $s   # jnthn: worse if $s not initialized
12:05 camelia rakudo-moar 748e69: OUTPUT«0␤»
12:05 Ven The guy who write idris wrote a paper on how the backends system works and how he made one for php: http://eb.host.cs.st-andrews.a​c.uk/drafts/compile-idris.pdf
12:05 Ven venki: welcome :). I'd recommend starting it at first, did you try the learnxinyminutes or perlgeek.de's article on 5-to-6?
12:05 DrForr Ven: Write code, report bugs? That's what I've been doing for a little while.
12:05 lizmat m: my num64 @arr = 1.1e0,1.2e0,1.3e0; my num64 $s; for @arr { $s += $_ }; say $s   # num and num64 seem ok
12:05 camelia rakudo-moar 748e69: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
12:06 lizmat ah, not  :-(
12:06 Ven DrForr: wrong tab completion I'm afraid
12:06 lizmat m: my num64 @arr = 1.1e0,1.2e0,1.3e0; my num64 $s = 0e0; for @arr { $s += $_ }; say $s   # num and num64 seem ok
12:06 camelia rakudo-moar 748e69: OUTPUT«3.6␤»
12:06 lizmat if $s is initialized
12:06 DrForr venki: Write code, report bugs. There are still many to be found before September :)
12:06 lizmat rakudobugging
12:06 DrForr Ven - Thanks.
12:08 venki so u guys mean to say learn perl 6
12:09 moritz venki: that's one avenue
12:09 moritz venki: you could also organize conferences, find donors/sponors, do marketing
12:09 moritz venki: it really depends on what *you* want to do
12:09 venki i am interested in writing code to make my hands dirty
12:10 DrForr Give talks...
12:10 moritz venki: a good place to start is writing applications and modules in Perl 6
12:10 DrForr venki: Nothing's stopping you, download the compiler and have at it?
12:10 lizmat .tell jnthn problem with num32: #124083
12:10 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=124083
12:10 yoleaux lizmat: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
12:10 venki ok
12:11 lizmat .tell jnthn problem with ininitialized num/num32/num64: #124084
12:11 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=124084
12:11 yoleaux lizmat: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
12:19 dalek roast: 94df3fa | lizmat++ | S09-typed-arrays/native-num.t:
12:19 dalek roast: Expand native num tests
12:19 dalek roast:
12:19 dalek roast: With one skip for #124083
12:19 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/94df3fa79f
12:19 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=124083
12:20 lizmat nothing like writing tests to find bugs  :-)   ^^^
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12:25 bartolin lizmat++
12:26 dalek roast: d3f1356 | lizmat++ | S09-typed-arrays/native-int.t:
12:26 dalek roast: Native int test tweaks inspired by recent num tests
12:26 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/d3f13564d7
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12:35 [Coke] moritz++ nqp install stuff. There's a ticket, btw:
12:36 [Coke] https://github.com/perl6/nqp/issues/154 - I just assigned it to you; I had grabbed it yesterday but didn't commit anything.
12:37 [Coke] (that sounds like I had stuff to commit yet, which I did not)
12:43 moritz [Coke]: I saw your comment in the ticket, but wasn't aware of the assigning-to-people feature :-)
12:44 moritz fwiw rakudo on moar and JVM seem to work fine in those branches
12:44 moritz though I haven't panda'd yet
12:44 moritz I just fear it might breka nqp-p
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12:45 moritz *break
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12:46 dalek rakudo/nom: cd51b34 | usev6++ | src/core/operators.pm:
12:46 dalek rakudo/nom: Flatten return values from SEQUENCE
12:46 dalek rakudo/nom: -- except when returning the empty list '()'
12:46 dalek rakudo/nom:
12:46 dalek rakudo/nom: Fixes RT #80574 and makes 3 fudged tests in S03-sequence/misc.t pass
12:46 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=80574
12:46 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/cd51b3401c
12:46 dalek rakudo/nom: 88cc986 | lizmat++ | src/core/operators.pm:
12:46 dalek rakudo/nom: Merge pull request #385 from usev6/nom
12:46 dalek rakudo/nom:
12:46 dalek rakudo/nom: Flatten return values from SEQUENCE
12:46 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/88cc986501
12:48 moritz panda works too
12:51 dalek rakudo/nom: 8d193d8 | lizmat++ | src/core/native_array.pm:
12:51 dalek rakudo/nom: Hopefully reduce number of re-allocations
12:51 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8d193d83c7
12:51 moritz ok, nqp-p works in those branches, as tested with a simple nqp-p -e 'say(42)'
12:51 moritz I don't know what else to test
12:52 moritz so, my plan would be to merge after this week's release
12:52 moritz any objects?
12:52 moritz (merging the install-dir-layout nqp and rakudo branches, that is)
12:52 moritz *any objections?
12:52 * moritz clearly can't type
12:52 lizmat no objects from me :-)
12:52 lizmat lunch&
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13:00 timotimo o/
13:02 [Coke] moritz: we can leave nqp-parrot installing in the odd place for now if it helps.
13:03 [Coke] it would be more convenient for me if they were merged pre-release, but I get that that is not safe.
13:03 moritz [Coke]: well, installing in one place and looking for libraries in another wouldn't be so good :-)
13:03 [Coke] Easy enough for me to bundle the patch with the initial port for nqp.
13:05 moritz does NQP come with anything loadable by default which I could use to test the installation?
13:07 timotimo hm, use QAST?
13:09 moritz works.
13:10 timotimo i'm not 100% sure if it looks at the filesystem to get that module
13:10 moritz 'use QRegex;' also works
13:10 moritz where else would it get it from?
13:10 timotimo in memory?
13:10 moritz stat("/home/mlenz/p6/rakudo/nqp/install/lib/par​rot/6.10.0-devel/languages/nqp/libQRegex.pbc", {st_mode=S_IFREG|0644, st_size=466080, ...}) = 0
13:11 timotimo good
13:11 moritz strace says it looks into the FS :-)
13:11 timotimo strace is super useful
13:11 moritz ok, Works[TM]
13:11 timotimo (though perf trace is a bit better)
13:11 timotimo moritz: cannot parameterize type Works with this value.
13:12 moritz "Type Works", the annual Haskell workshop
13:13 timotimo :3
13:26 dalek roast: 6a567f8 | lizmat++ | S03-sequence/misc.t:
13:26 dalek roast: Unfudge now passing tests, usev6++
13:26 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/6a567f81b9
13:28 bartolin oh, you beat me to it :-) lizmat++
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13:29 lizmat afk for an hour or so&
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14:43 hoelzro o/ #perl6
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14:45 eli-se guten Tag
14:46 psch hoelzro, eli-se \o
14:46 hoelzro o/ eli-se, psch
14:46 eli-se hoelzro \o/ psch,
14:47 psch trying to fix --target=jast, hoping that i get insight into the nativeref bug that way
14:47 psch which means first finding out what exactly is wrong with --target=jast /o\
14:48 LonelyGM eli-se: hoelzro: psch: o/
14:49 psch o/ LonelyGM
14:50 hoelzro o/ LonelyGM
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14:53 dalek roast: 5e3f7bf | lizmat++ | S02-lexical-conventions/comments.t:
14:53 dalek roast: Unfudge using # as a quote marker tests
14:53 dalek roast:
14:53 dalek roast: Seems TimToady's temp fix is good enough to last
14:53 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/5e3f7bf2cd
14:54 lizmat .oO( only 3 more days until the next release )
14:55 moritz not saying that we should, but we could adjust our release cycle if we wanted
14:55 lizmat fwiw, I was thinking from April onwards, we might want to do a 2-weekly release cycle
14:56 lizmat with jnthn going at "full fart"  :-)
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14:56 moritz what do we gain?
14:57 lizmat quicker more general exposure to new features, especially if combined with a * release
14:58 eli-se joined #perl6
14:58 moritz I'm not sure that's worth it
14:58 [Coke] -1 from me.
14:58 moritz releases are still quite a bit of manual work
14:59 moritz and star releases even more so
14:59 [Coke] We already have a way for users to get the latest.
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14:59 moritz and then we break our versioning scheme
14:59 LonelyGM do you think a 2 week release cycle is realistic enough to keep up with it?
14:59 moritz and at the times where both jnthn++ and pmichaud++ had time for programming, we still didn't shorten the release cycle
14:59 lizmat ok, then so much for that idea :-)
14:59 moritz so, -0.5 from me
15:00 geekosaur release engineering takes time and mental focus away from development
15:01 lizmat true, let's *not* discuss this idea further  :-)
15:02 dalek rakudo/nom: 1add79c | lizmat++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
15:02 dalek rakudo/nom: Add yours truly for the May release
15:02 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1add79cba0
15:06 [Coke] lizmat++
15:06 * [Coke] tries to spread info on the FB Perl Developers page.
15:10 Ven why did I read FBI perl developers page?
15:10 Ziemniak I read the same haha
15:11 timotimo hm
15:11 timotimo i'm wondering how the spread of "sister language" vs "new language" opinions is
15:15 Ulti could someone remind me of what the semantics are of typed lists?
15:15 Ulti as in what something like my Int @list; actually implies
15:16 Ulti s/remind/teach me/
15:16 moritz Ulti: it type-constraints elements of @list to Int (and subtypes thereof)
15:17 moritz it also makes @list.of return Int
15:17 timotimo (or the type object of Int or any subtype thereof)
15:18 Ulti ok
15:19 dalek roast: 0bfd751 | lizmat++ | S09-typed-arrays/native- (2 files):
15:19 dalek roast: Add native tests for := , :delete and [*-1]
15:19 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/0bfd751c7a
15:19 Ulti just wondering if [1].first-index("1") should really match for something like Int @list
15:19 timotimo first-index and friends do smart matching
15:19 Ulti I just noticed that stricter languages never match that
15:19 * Ulti was used to the perl way
15:19 Ulti timotimo right
15:19 timotimo you can * eqv "1"
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15:27 Ulti m: say 1 ~~ 1.0; say '1' ~~ 1.0; say 1 ~~ '1.0'; say '1' ~~ '1.0';
15:27 camelia rakudo-moar 1add79: OUTPUT«True␤True␤False␤False␤»
15:28 Ulti the third False is a bit of a huwah? for me
15:28 perl6_newbee joined #perl6
15:28 timotimo m: say "foo" ~~ "foobar"
15:28 camelia rakudo-moar 1add79: OUTPUT«False␤»
15:28 timotimo interesting
15:29 psch Str.ACCEPTS calls iseq_s
15:29 psch m: say 1.Str eq '1.0'
15:29 camelia rakudo-moar 1add79: OUTPUT«False␤»
15:29 psch is what we do behind ~~ for the third comparison
15:30 Ulti especially given '1.0'.Int == 1
15:30 Ulti psch: ahh ok
15:30 psch Ulti: $a ~~ $b means $b.ACCEPTS($a)
15:30 psch Ulti: so '
15:31 psch Ulti: so '1.0' is what's given, in that case
15:31 psch and Str.ACCEPTS does pretty much eq
15:32 psch fwiw, infix:<~~> behind that way around still feels unintuitive to me, but i've consciously accepted it :)
15:33 dalek rakudo/nom: 21f01b0 | lizmat++ | src/core/ (2 files):
15:33 dalek rakudo/nom: Add .Range "coercer" for Num/Rat types
15:33 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/21f01b04d1
15:33 Ulti ok this isn't great
15:35 Ulti m: my Rat @list = (1.0,2.0); say @list.first-index(2); say @list.first-index('2'); say @list.first-index(2.0); say @list.first-index('2.0');
15:35 camelia rakudo-moar 1add79: OUTPUT«1␤1␤1␤Nil␤»
15:35 timotimo oh, for a moment i thought '1' ~~ '1.0' ended up True
15:35 timotimo that WTF'd me
15:35 timotimo but i can totally understand why it'd False
15:36 Ulti that last one just now is very very not DWIM if you first saw Int @list since that kind of works out how you imagine with a naive idea of what is happening
15:39 timotimo i suppose that's fair
15:39 dalek perl6-examples: 328646a | paultcochrane++ | categories/euler/prob022-grondilu.pl:
15:39 dalek perl6-examples: [euler] read names.txt independently of run dir
15:39 dalek perl6-examples: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl​6-examples/commit/328646ab66
15:39 dalek perl6-examples: 3e53705 | paultcochrane++ | categories/euler/prob022-grondilu.pl:
15:39 dalek perl6-examples: [euler] make solution to problem 22 give correct answer
15:39 dalek perl6-examples:
15:39 dalek perl6-examples: The input data needed to have the double quotes stripped from it and the
15:39 dalek perl6-examples: words split on commas.
15:39 dalek perl6-examples: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl​6-examples/commit/3e5370542f
15:39 timotimo but learning about smart match semantics is very important for understanding perl6
15:40 Ulti sure but that example is really not great I'm calling first-index not explicitly doing a smart match
15:40 Ulti with something that you know the type of shouldn't it be a coerce to that type
15:40 timotimo yes, it's not a good example
15:41 timotimo i don't agree; why not have the user use the given type of that list?
15:41 timotimo what kinds of things would you allow to coerce?
15:41 lizmat m: my uint64 @a = -1; say @a.perl   # same for uint
15:41 camelia rakudo-moar 21f01b: OUTPUT«array[uint64].new(-1)␤»
15:41 timotimo would you allow code blocks to be attempted to coerce? junctions? type objects?
15:41 lizmat I guess this would be the same for uint32 on 32bit machines
15:42 * lizmat rakudobugs
15:42 Ulti timotimo you already have it .Int
15:42 timotimo you have what .Int?
15:43 Ulti just expect there to be a method .Type returning Type
15:43 psch if you know the type of what you want to compare to, use the correct comparison op
15:43 timotimo m: my Rat @list = (1.0, 2.0); say @list>>.Str
15:43 camelia rakudo-moar 21f01b: OUTPUT«1 2␤»
15:43 psch no point in smart matching against a Int (or Rat) array when you want to compare nuermically
15:43 psch *numerically
15:43 timotimo indeed
15:44 Ulti for one thing if I had a native int array and I wanted the first index of something you want some nice low level comparisson on the CPU
15:45 lizmat m: my uint64 @a = -1; say @a.perl   # RT #124088
15:45 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=124088
15:45 camelia rakudo-moar 21f01b: OUTPUT«array[uint64].new(-1)␤»
15:45 timotimo Ulti: if you have a native int array, why would you even give first-index (or whatever) a string?
15:45 dalek roast: 6f15520 | lizmat++ | S09-typed-arrays/native-int.t:
15:45 dalek roast: Add some unsigned native int specific tests
15:45 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/6f1552064c
15:46 timotimo FWIW, multi-dispatch will give you a low-level int comparison in this case (not sure if spesh will end up making that happen correctly yet)
15:46 pmichaud lizmat: could you tell me what $?BITS actually represents?
15:46 Ulti timotimo because the rest of the program can still be as dynamic as I like
15:46 lizmat the number of bits in a native int
15:46 FROGGS pmichaud: my guess is longsize * 8
15:47 FROGGS well, our int... which can be longer that long in future
15:47 timotimo Ulti: also, the presence of a .Int doesn't mean you can coerce; try "hello".Int
15:47 pmichaud and I guess we'll never have the case of a precomp'd module running in an environment with a different sized native int?
15:47 timotimo m: say "".Int
15:47 camelia rakudo-moar 21f01b: OUTPUT«0␤»
15:48 lizmat pmichaud: I would think not, that would wreak havoc on things like NativeCall
15:48 timotimo i'm not actually sure it would, lizmat
15:48 timotimo if you use "int", you'll get surprised no matter whether you're using precomp'd or not, AFAIK
15:48 pmichaud that's the point of my question... the $? in $?BITS means that it's a compile-time value
15:48 lizmat well, then I go back to *my* definition: the number of bits in what "native int" is at compile time  :-)
15:49 lizmat the thing is that $*KERNEL.bits might actually be 64 on a 32bit build, couldn't it ?
15:49 LonelyGM sorry guys maybe it is a stupid question and i am viewing language design from another perspective I think, but in case of  is @arr[  9],   0,     is whitespace necessary in the brackets? and if yes why is that? I mean what is its function? again sorry if it is a stupid question
15:49 FROGGS sizes of the natives types are detected at repr compose time, if not even VM compile time
15:49 timotimo Ulti: i feel we're not going to convince each other on this :S
15:49 lizmat LonelyGM:not, that's purely esthetic for lining up code
15:50 Ulti timotimo my actual preference is the whole thing explodes at runtime if you dont pass an actual Typed parameter
15:50 Ulti since thats what the strongly typed world expect
15:50 timotimo a typed parameter?
15:50 pmichaud as long as "my constant" means it happens prior to CHECK then I'm okay with $?BITS
15:51 Ulti yeah so my Num $param = 2.0; @list.first-index($param)   is fine but without the Num it complains about lack of a type
15:51 timotimo do you mean array[T] and Positional[T] should enforce the arguments to .first-index, .grep, ... to conform to T?
15:51 Ulti if I wanted something generic I wouldn't have specified a typed list
15:51 psch i can see that, actually
15:52 psch i mean, see it as a somewhat sensible expectation
15:52 Ulti timotimo: sure
15:52 timotimo so @list.first-index(* > 10) is not acceptable?
15:52 psch but it still breaks on junctions, except for Mu @arr
15:53 psch m: say Code ~~ Any
15:53 camelia rakudo-moar 21f01b: OUTPUT«True␤»
15:53 psch basically, it breaks every convenenience, for a bit more type safety
15:53 lizmat pmichaud: keeping $?BITS internal to Int for now
15:53 FROGGS and fwiw, $?BITS seems to huffmanize something that might not be useful/used enough
15:53 lizmat it's the only place I needed it for performance reasons (so far)
15:54 pmichaud lizmat: works for me for now :)
15:54 FROGGS (I am talking about exposing it to userland of course)
15:54 Ulti timotimo I'd prefer the type safety on a typed list than the magic goodness of a normal Perl 6 list
15:54 timotimo OK. in this case i am just in violent disagreement
15:54 Ulti unless currying somehow checks that the * > 10 is actually * > 10.0
15:54 timotimo it will not
15:54 Ulti like if the * had an implied type that matched
15:56 psch well, one could work around that with a pointy, but it's still not worth it
15:56 lizmat Pictures of TheDamian in Amsterdam last week: https://www.flickr.com/photos/w​endyga/sets/72157651367081891/
16:02 Ulti timotimo I am in peaceful disagreement since utlimately it doesn't bother me so long as I know what to expect... that JavaScript had a super strict indexOf kind of shocked me after years of daily perl :)
16:03 Ulti also given how pants and unstrict and weird JS is everywhere else
16:03 psch m: my Int @arr = ^3; @arr.can('first-index')[0].wrap(-> $s, $a { $a ~~ $s.of ?? nextsame() !! die "bad type" }); say @arr.first-index(2); say @arr.first-index("2")
16:03 camelia rakudo-moar 21f01b: OUTPUT«2␤bad type␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/pPVzMH_ARE:1␤␤»
16:03 timotimo i'm not really against having an "index-of" that has eqv semantics
16:03 Ulti what does just .index do?
16:04 Ulti is that stringy
16:04 timotimo i thin kso
16:04 timotimo m: say "foobar".index("bar")
16:04 camelia rakudo-moar 21f01b: OUTPUT«3␤»
16:04 timotimo maybe we ought to call it "element-index"
16:04 moritz http://doc.perl6.org/routine/index
16:05 lizmat moritz: what was the branch name again that let native int.roll work ?
16:06 Ulti .eqv-index ?
16:06 Ulti index-eqv to keep with the order of index-of
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16:06 Ulti guess its not really a super important feature especially if I'm the only person to cry about it
16:07 timotimo eqv-index sounds like "find the index equivalent to an index of a thing in a different list" or whatevs
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16:07 Ulti yeah
16:07 Ulti true
16:08 timotimo "what's the index of this thing according to this transformation"
16:08 Ulti see this is why you should all just give up and implement Java then you can do indexOfUsingEquivalencePerElement
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16:09 Ven wendy++ # pictures
16:09 Sysaxed m: my @l := 1, 2, 3 ... *; say @l[-1] # I'm just wondering, what would be the syntax to create a list that is infinite in both sides? Or should I create two lists instead?
16:09 camelia rakudo-moar 21f01b: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/pGeEcAvTv9␤Unsupported use of a negative -1 subscript to index from the end; in Perl 6 please use a function such as *-1␤at /tmp/pGeEcAvTv9:1␤------> 3my @l := 1, 2, 3 ... *; say @l[-1]7⏏5 # I'm just…»
16:10 jdv79 is there work to get cloudy integrations for the 6.0 timeframe?  stuff like aws beanstalk, or new relic monitoring, etc...?
16:11 jdv79 would it be too early to work on that sort of thing?  these days i can see it being a good thing if people can hit the ground running with support like that.  idk.
16:11 lizmat m: my @a = -Inf..Inf; say @a[0]   # Sysaxed , but not very useful
16:11 Ulti Sysaxed if it was infinite on both sides it would always be -Inf
16:11 camelia rakudo-moar 21f01b: OUTPUT«-Inf␤»
16:12 lizmat jdv79: feels like the right time to me
16:12 Sysaxed Ulti: hm, why? Considering that [0] is the middle of that list
16:13 Sysaxed well, "middle"
16:13 lizmat Sysaxed: [0] is the "left" most
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16:13 Sysaxed lizmat: yes I see, but in terms of lists that are infinite in both sides...
16:13 lizmat the [1] ie the one up from that, but since -Inf + 1 = -Inf, you're not getting anywhere
16:13 lizmat *is
16:14 lizmat perhaps when we get shaped arrays, but even then...
16:14 ugexe has anyone got panda to work on win32/jvm? i can get panda installed, and it installs its submodules/deps, but afterwards the 'fetch' doesnt actually fetch anything (hence the run of N/A win32 jvm test reports last night :( )
16:14 Sysaxed lizmat: well, [0] = 1, [1] = 2, [2] = 3 and [-1] = 0, [-2] = -1 and so on... That's what I expect, I guess. But I'm just wondering if that thing is possible, so nevermind...
16:15 Ulti Sysaxed [-1] on a list is the right most end not further left than [0] there is no "other side"
16:15 timotimo you can do that with a hash
16:15 Ulti so you'd expect -1 to be Inf maybe
16:15 timotimo Ulti: actually, [-1] on a list is an exception/failure
16:15 Sysaxed Ulti: [-1] is an invalid syntax, actually
16:16 timotimo not invalid syntax per se; you can define your own postcircumfix:<[ ]> that would accept that, i imagine
16:16 Sysaxed timotimo: well, it says that I should use [*-1]
16:16 timotimo yes
16:16 timotimo m: say (my @foo)[-1]
16:16 camelia rakudo-moar 21f01b: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/5xSY7jbvqm␤Unsupported use of a negative -1 subscript to index from the end; in Perl 6 please use a function such as *-1␤at /tmp/5xSY7jbvqm:1␤------> 3say (my @foo)[-1]7⏏5<EOL>␤»
16:17 timotimo oh, it does give a SORRY
16:17 timotimo i didn't realize
16:17 ugexe also for OS version: for JVM its reporting my OS version as 6.1 but on moar it says 6.3
16:17 Ulti actually on an infinite list it doesn't like * -1 either
16:17 timotimo well, how could it
16:17 Sysaxed and the fact that I should use *-1 made me think that I can use -1 to go into another direction. Not that it would be really useful, but just maybe...
16:18 Ulti timotimo last time I tried weird stuff on infinite lists they just became unlazy and attempted to fill all RAM
16:18 timotimo aye
16:18 timotimo it's not always infinitely smart
16:18 Ulti so its nice to see them say NO
16:19 timotimo aye
16:20 Ulti I think part of it is if you are playing in the REPL too
16:20 timotimo yes, the repl is very bad at handling :=
16:21 psch i had had another look at moreinput recently, fwiw
16:21 timotimo oh, nice
16:21 psch but that definitely does need a bit more design, as TimToady++ mentioned
16:21 timotimo i came to that conclusion 1.5 years ago, i believe
16:21 Ulti moreinput? the jonny5 branch?
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16:22 psch Ulti: i don't think so?  moreinput is a placeholder for a feature that lets the REPL ask for more input when it realises the current statement wouldn't compile correctly
16:22 Ulti oh nice
16:23 Ulti that's something I'd want to make my slang work well with
16:23 psch timotimo: i had the nqp bit almost working, i.e. adding to $!target and $!pos worked and trying to match them also worked, but the match somehow failed
16:23 timotimo that's not the only thing that moreinput would be nice for
16:23 psch timotimo: and, well, the way &moreinput is used in STD.pm6 is definitely just an idea
16:24 psch err, not $!pos
16:24 psch $!orig and $!target it was
16:24 Ulti I already do a sorry if the literal isn't closed so if it keeps asking for input until there aren't any sorries then that will already work
16:24 timotimo our current REPL is a very terrible hack based on compiling statement for statement into new compilation units that just have the previous scopes as their outer
16:24 timotimo so we end up with a tower of babel like situation of stacked outers
16:24 * psch back in ~90 &
16:25 timotimo 1.5 minutes?
16:25 LonelyGM joined #perl6
16:25 Ulti 1.5 hours?
16:25 psch no, yes
16:25 jercos 3 fiscal months?
16:25 * psch actually afk now
16:25 Ulti hah
16:30 ugexe it woudl seem jvm is correct in OS version reporting (6.1 = windows 7), but moar is incorrectly reporting 6.3 (6.3 = windows 8.1)
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16:59 dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 130 commits to rakudo/cpp by FROGGS
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17:21 eli-se hi
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17:41 muraiki_ hi
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18:01 rindolf eli-se: hi, sup?
18:01 rindolf muraiki_: sup?
18:01 eli-se nothing :P
18:01 eli-se just writing a compiler
18:01 rindolf eli-se: ah, for what?
18:01 eli-se language I work on
18:01 rindolf eli-se: ah.
18:02 masak sup, rindolf
18:02 rindolf masak: I went for a walk today. It was somewhat over an hour long.
18:02 rindolf masak: and I'm back at Inbox ZERO nirvana.
18:03 masak congratulations.
18:03 rindolf masak: how was your weekend?
18:03 masak rindolf: blissful.
18:03 rindolf masak: nice.
18:03 masak I'm currently speed-reading SICP for a reading circle. :)
18:05 masak a *company* reading circle, with two colleagues.
18:05 masak because I work at a place where people want to read SICP \o/
18:06 rindolf masak: that's nice.
18:07 perl6_newbee joined #perl6
18:08 masak yes, I have high hopes. it's the first time we meet up for this.
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18:17 muraiki_ speed reading sicp, hehe
18:17 muraiki_ sorry didn't see the sup earlier rindolf
18:17 rindolf muraiki_: that's OK.
18:17 muraiki_ I haven't used sicp, but I started learning programming with "how to design programs" which I've heard is sort of a spiritual successor
18:18 muraiki_ I thought it was a great book that helped me think about solving problems in a functional way
18:18 muraiki_ I do want to tackle sicp at some point, but there's so many things to learn...
18:18 masak SICP is kinda great too
18:19 muraiki_ oh yes, I've heard many great things about it
18:19 muraiki_ but it is a bit math heavy and I am very undereducated in math
18:20 muraiki_ I picked up "the haskell road to logic maths and programming" which supposedly teaches logic and proofs alongside fp in haskell
18:20 muraiki_ so I'm hoping that will help me think about math better :)
18:20 masak sounds nice :)
18:20 muraiki_ but first I have to learn some things that might have more of a chance of being used at work, heh
18:21 muraiki_ I want to use p6 but it doesn't quite address our problem
18:23 masak quote: "Here is a language so far ahead of its time that it was not only an improvement on its predecessors but also on nearly all its successors."
18:23 masak pop quiz: who said this, and about which language?
18:23 nwc10 Knuth on Intercal? :-)
18:23 masak try not to google it; that's cheating :)
18:23 masak nwc10: surprisingly -- no :)
18:24 nwc10 I have no idea, so I'm going to wait
18:24 masak dinner &
18:24 timotimo hmm, BCPL?
18:24 masak (nope)
18:25 arnsholt I suspect it's ALGOL 68
18:25 arnsholt Not sure who though
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18:26 muraiki_ some crazy array based language
18:28 timotimo perl6 ought to get crazy arrays, too
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18:35 nine_ So I finally finished backlogging the past two days and the clog ends at a cliff hanger. So typical!
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18:37 andreoss how can i lookup source code of function/method implementation?
18:38 andreoss besides of doing grep across source code.
18:39 nwc10 andreoss: is that for some Perl 6 code, or a more general question?
18:39 andreoss for perl 6 of course
18:40 andreoss i want something like that for Perl 6 http://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/map
18:42 andreoss like I want to see how map is implemented in Perl 6? is there a tool for that(within perl6doc may be) or just I should just start grepping the source tree?
18:42 nwc10 andreoss: *I* don't know. I admit that I'm not actually familiar enough with the Perl 6 implemenation to answer that.
18:42 sivoais joined #perl6
18:43 nwc10 I'd hope that someone like masak would have a good idea, but I think right now he's away eating.
18:44 psch which part on the clojure site is the implementation of map?
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18:45 andreoss psch: there is a link to source
18:45 psch aah, top right, now i see it
18:45 muraiki_ yeah I didn't notice it at first either, heh
18:45 psch yeah, we don't have that currently
18:45 muraiki_ yeah clojure has a source function so you can (source map)
18:45 psch i suppose we could have it on docs.perl6.org
18:45 psch we don't have source introspection either, and i don't know how workable it is
18:46 andreoss psch: i believe it's done on internal level though not by web site itself
18:46 andreoss i have this feature for clojure in emacs as well.
18:47 psch andreoss: yeah, i gathered that much from muraiki_++'s comment
18:47 psch andreoss: i don't think something like .source is planned in any way, and i don't in how far it is possible
18:47 vendethiel andreoss: I don't think there are others way right now. You might want to look at what the debugger is doing
18:48 psch oh, right
18:48 psch makes me wonder if the debugger steps through CORE functions
18:48 psch i never paid attention to that
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18:52 muraiki_ "Prints the source code for the given symbol, if it can find it.
18:52 muraiki_ This requires that the symbol resolve to a Var defined in a
18:52 muraiki_ namespace for which the .clj is in the classpath."
18:52 eli-se woohoo
18:52 muraiki_ so all clojure's source does is grab it from a source file, heh
18:52 muraiki_ there's no crazy introspection going on
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18:55 psch hm, i doubt that'd be useful for us
18:57 psch R* doesn't come with source afaik, and if you cloned the git repo already you might as well grep, imo
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18:59 psch i don't know if rakudobrew leaves the source around either
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19:20 moritz lizmat: the branch is called richer-positional
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19:24 timotimo Rakudo * does come with source
19:24 timotimo hm, perhaps not on windows, though?
19:25 FROGGS the msi comes without I think
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19:33 FROGGS is somebody able to test this on jvm? https://gist.github.com/FR​OGGS/e3ec8bf0baf70458f6f3
19:33 FROGGS applying that patch and running `make test` would be awesome
19:33 colomon jvm on os x okay?  anything else that needs to be changed from current rakudo?
19:33 FROGGS osx should do too, yes
19:34 FROGGS nothing else besides that patch and make test
19:34 colomon gotta build jvm, starting now
19:34 FROGGS colomon++ # thank you
19:34 ash-gti https://github.com/github/lingu​ist/issues/1680#event-255581766 is closed now, so there is some limited support for perl6 syntax in github now. I have some more patches to enhance variable names to support unicode and I am working on matching package scopes (class, role, etc.) and method names
19:35 FROGGS ash-gti++ # nice!
19:37 ugexe sent a pr for rakudobrew to work on windows
19:38 FROGGS ugexe: is that MSVC or mingw specific?
19:39 japhb muraiki_: We have program-object.WHY <-> doc-object.WHEREFORE pointing at each other, but getting from the program-object to its declaration introspectively, not so much IIRC.
19:39 ugexe FROGGS: im building with MSVC. i didnt try with mingw
19:39 japhb When I'm trying to see implementation for Perl 6 setting stuff, I just look in my handy clone of rakudo and do:   git grep 'method foo' src/core
19:40 ugexe just doing all the commands from vs2013 native tools command prompt
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19:46 dalek rakudo/nom: 04d15d4 | usev6++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/rakudo/Binder.java:
19:46 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix minor typo in error message
19:46 dalek rakudo/nom: (also match error message on Moar)
19:46 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/04d15d4480
19:46 dalek rakudo/nom: 46942b0 | moritz++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/rakudo/Binder.java:
19:46 dalek rakudo/nom: Merge pull request #386 from usev6/nom
19:46 dalek rakudo/nom:
19:46 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix minor typo in error message
19:46 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/46942b096f
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19:54 nwc10 FROGGS: https://gist.github.com/FR​OGGS/e3ec8bf0baf70458f6f3 passes all t/04-nativecall/*.t tests on "my" machine
19:55 nwc10 however 'java version "1.7.0_71"' SEGVs on the 01 tests (with & without that patch)
19:55 nwc10 right proper good software, that
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20:03 lizmat PSA: I'll be doing the Perl 6 Weekly again this week
20:03 lizmat please let me know of things *you* think should be in the P6W
20:05 FROGGS nwc10: okay, that should be good enough to apply that patch later, thanks
20:05 xenowoolfy joined #perl6
20:05 FROGGS though, I should probably look into that 1.7 issue if I get the chance
20:07 nwc10 it might be a 1.7.0_71 issue.
20:07 nwc10 seems that blah_71 is soooo last year (ie October)
20:08 dalek rakudo/nom: 4dcab36 | lizmat++ | src/core/native_array.pm:
20:08 dalek rakudo/nom: Remove :$sink, as it will not be used anyway
20:08 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4dcab367fc
20:09 colomon FROGGS: sorry, got distrated, but I’m trying your patch now
20:11 yqt joined #perl6
20:11 colomon FROGGS: Result: PASS
20:11 FROGGS awesome :o)
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20:28 LonelyGM good job :) o/
20:28 FROGGS o/
20:30 LonelyGM It's been a couple of days only that Larry introduced me to the world of Perl6 and this IRC channel, since then I am waiting to get home and read the #perl6 log and see the updates on github. :) you guys are awesome
20:31 vendethiel LonelyGM: did the same, exactly a year ago (except I wasn't introduced to the lang by Larry!) -- I'm still reading the logs :P.
20:33 sivoais joined #perl6
20:33 LonelyGM vendethiel: I try to catch up as fast as I can to be able to help in this great work
20:33 skids joined #perl6
20:35 nwc10 LonelyGM: you are actually already in a very useful position to help. You can tell us what isn't obvious to a newcomer, and possibly how things could be documented better.
20:42 LonelyGM nwc10: thank you I try to phrase my technical difficulties, I actually love to view its aesthetics hopefully I will do something good soon with that love :p
20:43 sivoais joined #perl6
20:44 dalek perl6-examples: eafe392 | paultcochrane++ | categories/euler/prob024-moritz.pl:
20:44 dalek perl6-examples: [euler] join answer of solution to problem 24
20:44 dalek perl6-examples:
20:44 dalek perl6-examples: This gives something that looks more like a number, which the user is likely
20:44 dalek perl6-examples: to expect.
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21:16 dalek rakudo/cpp: bda0796 | FROGGS++ | lib/NativeCall/Compiler/GNU.pm:
21:16 dalek rakudo/cpp: distinguish between references and pointers
21:16 dalek rakudo/cpp: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/bda0796589
21:17 dalek rakudo/cpp: 43bf4fb | FROGGS++ | lib/NativeCall.pm:
21:17 dalek rakudo/cpp: distinguish between references and pointers
21:17 dalek rakudo/cpp: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/43bf4fbaf7
21:17 vendethiel FROGGS++
21:18 vendethiel FROGGS: how does that work with xvalues? (T&&)
21:18 FROGGS I'm not sure :/
21:19 dalek rakudo/nom: 67156c1 | FROGGS++ | lib/NativeCall.pm:
21:19 dalek rakudo/nom: throw for wrong arity in native subs
21:19 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/67156c168f
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21:19 dalek rakudo/cpp: 04d15d4 | usev6++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/rakudo/Binder.java:
21:19 dalek rakudo/cpp: Fix minor typo in error message
21:19 dalek rakudo/cpp: (also match error message on Moar)
21:19 dalek rakudo/cpp: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/04d15d4480
21:19 dalek rakudo/cpp: 46942b0 | moritz++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/rakudo/Binder.java:
21:19 dalek rakudo/cpp: Merge pull request #386 from usev6/nom
21:19 dalek rakudo/cpp:
21:19 dalek rakudo/cpp: Fix minor typo in error message
21:19 dalek rakudo/cpp: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/46942b096f
21:19 dalek rakudo/cpp: 4dcab36 | lizmat++ | src/core/native_array.pm:
21:19 dalek rakudo/cpp: Remove :$sink, as it will not be used anyway
21:19 dalek rakudo/cpp: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4dcab367fc
21:19 dalek rakudo/cpp: 67156c1 | FROGGS++ | lib/NativeCall.pm:
21:19 dalek rakudo/cpp: throw for wrong arity in native subs
21:19 dalek rakudo/cpp: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/67156c168f
21:19 dalek rakudo/cpp: 8d11815 | FROGGS++ | / (3 files):
21:19 dalek rakudo/cpp: Merge branch 'nom' of github.com:rakudo/rakudo into cpp
21:19 dalek rakudo/cpp: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8d118155bf
21:21 eli-se C++ problems?
21:22 vendethiel eli-se: hahahaha
21:22 * TimToady done with all his talks on this road trip, so can relax now o/
21:22 vendethiel TimToady++ :-)
21:22 eli-se I wouldn't bother with C++ interop unless you support template instantiation.
21:23 vendethiel TimToady: do you happen to know when your FOSDEM talk record will be available? last time I checked it wasn't there :)
21:23 vendethiel eli-se: Nim supports it!
21:23 TimToady no idear
21:23 eli-se It's incredibly difficult to implement.
21:24 lizmat vendethiel: when it becomes available, it should be in http://video.fosdem.org/2015/main_track-languages/
21:24 timotimo don't you have to basically compile c++ yourself?
21:24 vendethiel lizmat: thanks!
21:24 vendethiel eli-se: it was sponsored work, IIRC
21:24 eli-se timotimo You can't even parse C++ code without being able to interpret function bodies.
21:24 timotimo oh, constexpr?
21:24 eli-se :)
21:24 vendethiel :D
21:25 eli-se The result of a constexpr function can change the parse of a call to it.
21:25 eli-se From a template instantiation to a LT/GT comparison, for example.
21:26 eli-se Because somebody thought it was a good idea to use < and > for delimiting template arguments.
21:26 timotimo good thing we don't have [ and ] operators yet
21:26 * vendethiel thinks that one person really wanted to have the Most Vexing Parse rule
21:27 vendethiel "look at these nerds fight with our syntax! ha-ha!"
21:27 TimToady I guess we were luck that we'd already stolen < and > for something else :)
21:27 TimToady *lucky
21:32 FROGGS >.<
21:33 ugexe i think im having unexpected behavior with win32 jvm. With panda, it fails to do 'shell clone $git' (although it can do 'shell status'). switching to moar it works fine. im sure i can twist permissions aroudn to fix it, but is that expected?
21:34 ugexe https://gist.github.com/ugexe/a6cb621ad743e5b057e9
21:36 FROGGS I.... I have no explanation
21:36 kaare_ joined #perl6
21:36 FROGGS I can't even guess
21:36 FROGGS but it is certainly not expected
21:36 timotimo ssh: Could not resolve hostname git: no address associated with name
21:36 timotimo what
21:37 timotimo something must be interpolating or newlines or something
21:37 FROGGS ohh, I think I know...
21:37 timotimo can you perhaps print "blah".perl instead of shell?
21:37 FROGGS do we turn slashes to backlashes for the jvm, as we do on moar?
21:38 timotimo oh god
21:38 timotimo git:\\github.com?
21:38 FROGGS that's my guess
21:39 timotimo eew.
21:39 timotimo i hate backslashes on windows so much
21:39 FROGGS lol
21:39 ugexe i had panda working with jvm on windows yesterday
21:39 ugexe although doing it manually and not with rakudobrew
21:39 FROGGS nqp/src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/pe​rl6/nqp/runtime/Ops.java:962
21:39 FROGGS args.add(cmd.replace('/', '\\'));
21:39 FROGGS :P
21:40 lizmat https://p6weekly.wordpress.com/?p=​442&amp;shareadraft=55074d66e05e2   # Perl 6 Weekly draft, comments welcome!
21:40 timotimo thank you so much
21:42 eli-se Does the Perl 6 design docs actually say anything about static typing?
21:42 eli-se Or is it just an optimisation-time implementation hack?
21:43 timotimo please explain more?
21:43 vendethiel lizmat++ timotimo++ :-)
21:43 timotimo don't ++ me for being sick, vendethiel
21:43 timotimo or at least tell me "i like it much better when liz does the weekly" :P
21:43 vendethiel timotimo: i'm ++ing you recovery so that it's quicker :P
21:44 eli-se Because Perl 6 programs compile when you pass Any to a function that takes Int, for example.
21:44 eli-se Where Any is the static type, if Perl 6 has a static type system.
21:44 timotimo ah, ok, fair enough
21:44 vendethiel .oO( I can be... both the top type and the bottom type! )
21:44 timotimo ah, compile-time errors when types don't match up
21:45 vendethiel yes
21:45 timotimo the optimizer is responsible for catching this in the cases where it already works, because it's analyzing calls in order to improve them (picking the right candidate in advance)
21:45 timotimo however, methods are late-bound and we don't have restrictions on what types of stuff methods are allowed to take in their signature given the supertypes
21:45 FROGGS lizmat: can you please mention that I fixed a long standoing rakudo-JVM bug that prevented URI to be used?
21:46 FROGGS lizmat: it involved our scoped subs in combination with preompilation
21:46 lizmat will do!
21:46 timotimo in C++'s case, for example, you can statically type methods because you're not allowed to just change a method's return type, for example
21:46 lizmat anything worth mentioning about C++ NativeCall integration
21:46 lizmat ?
21:46 FROGGS hmm, not yet
21:47 FROGGS when the Box2D bindings are done probably, so we have a showcase
21:49 mohij joined #perl6
21:49 FROGGS ugexe: can you test that? https://gist.github.com/FR​OGGS/7f2b5d4a8ba363fd9b0e
21:49 FROGGS I'll also build that and attempt a spectest
21:57 lizmat FROGGS: added:
21:57 lizmat <li><i>FROGGS</i>++ fixed a long standing bug on the JVM backend involving our scoped subs in combination with precompilation.  This now allows e.g. the <b>URI</b> module to be used on the JVM backend.</li>
22:00 lizmat https://p6weekly.wordpress.com/2015/​03/16/2015-11-native-arrays-arrive/   # P6W published!
22:05 raydiak lizmat++ weekly looks good, only one small grammatical nit: "The reason why these do not work yet, are clear" ~~ s/are/is/
22:05 espadrine joined #perl6
22:06 ugexe FROGGS: building now
22:06 lizmat raydiak++  (fixed nit)
22:07 lizmat too late for Pi day, but still pretty good: https://twitter.com/clujpm​/status/577577896862199808
22:10 sjn lizmat++ # p6weekly
22:11 lizmat sjn++ for making it easy for me to use quotes from TheDamian  :-)
22:11 sjn although, it would be nice if you somehow could mention that TheDamian also tave the Everyday Perl 6 talk in Oslo thw week before :D
22:12 sjn gave*
22:12 sjn the* typos* grammar*
22:12 diana_olhovik_ joined #perl6
22:13 lizmat mention added
22:14 sjn yay! \o/
22:14 sjn thanks! ^^
22:14 * TimToady sacks out &
22:15 TimToady (it being after midnight in .ro already...)
22:18 lizmat don't let the bed bats bite you!
22:18 hoelzro lizmat++ # p6w
22:18 hoelzro I avoided reading the comments on that Reddit thread, for fear that they would be very biased against Perl 6 for the usual reasons
22:19 hoelzro I'm pleased to see that only a small fraction fit that description!
22:21 jnthn o/
22:21 yoleaux 12:10Z <lizmat> jnthn: problem with num32: #124083
22:21 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=124083
22:21 yoleaux 12:11Z <lizmat> jnthn: problem with ininitialized num/num32/num64: #124084
22:21 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=124084
22:21 lizmat jnthn: o/
22:21 * jnthn is num with shock at these bugs...
22:22 lizmat it int that bad
22:23 lizmat hoelzro: that's why I mentioned reddit  :-)
22:23 hoelzro lizmat: =)
22:24 jnthn m: my num32 @arr = 1.1e0,1.2e0,1.3e0; my num32 $s = 0e0; for @arr { say .WHAT }
22:24 camelia rakudo-moar 67156c: OUTPUT«(Num)␤(Num)␤(Num)␤»
22:24 jnthn m: my num32 @arr = 1.1e0,1.2e0,1.3e0; my num32 $s = 0e0; for @arr { .say }
22:24 camelia rakudo-moar 67156c: OUTPUT«1.10000002384186␤1.2000​0004768372␤1.29999995231628␤»
22:25 * sjn is scanning faq.perl6.org, noticing that the naming question isn't covered there
22:25 timotimo ohai jnthn
22:25 jnthn o/ timotimo
22:26 timotimo i'm very sad my phi fact merging branch is causing so much fallout
22:26 jnthn m: my num32 $s = 0e0; say $s
22:26 camelia rakudo-moar 67156c: OUTPUT«0␤»
22:27 jnthn m: my num32 $s = 0e0; $s += 4e0; say $s
22:27 camelia rakudo-moar 67156c: OUTPUT«0␤»
22:27 sjn m: my num32 $n = 0.1; my num32 $m = 0.2; my num32 $o = 0.3; say 1 / ( $a + $b - $d );
22:27 camelia rakudo-moar 67156c: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/9RCKKLPfGU␤Variable '$a' is not declared␤at /tmp/9RCKKLPfGU:1␤------> 3m = 0.2; my num32 $o = 0.3; say 1 / ( $a7⏏5 + $b - $d );␤    expecting any of:␤        postfix␤»
22:27 jnthn uhh :)
22:27 jnthn m: my num32 $s = 0e0; $s = $s + 4e0; say $s
22:27 camelia rakudo-moar 67156c: OUTPUT«0␤»
22:27 sjn m: my num32 $n = 0.1; my num32 $m = 0.2; my num32 $o = 0.3; say 1 / ( $n + $m - $o );
22:27 camelia rakudo-moar 67156c: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native number␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/O9OrYQpU6j:1␤␤»
22:27 sjn oops
22:27 jnthn m: my num $s = 0e0; $s = $s + 4e0; say $s
22:27 camelia rakudo-moar 67156c: OUTPUT«4␤»
22:27 jnthn m: my num64 $s = 0e0; $s = $s + 4e0; say $s
22:27 camelia rakudo-moar 67156c: OUTPUT«4␤»
22:27 timotimo we must be playing it fast and loose with facts in some places (kind of like faux news?)
22:27 hoelzro lizmat: btw, I found another Channel bug: #124074
22:27 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=124074
22:28 hoelzro and some sort of fun multithreading nightmar: #124073
22:28 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=124073
22:29 jnthn timotimo: Maybe, but it's be a bit surprising we get away wiht it.
22:29 timotimo IKR.
22:29 jnthn Do you check that all the things in a PHI agree on the fact?
22:29 timotimo yes, or at least i think so
22:30 timotimo i wrote code that i hoped would do that
22:30 timotimo but i'm currently sick and feeling dizzy most of the time for some reason, so i wouldn't trust my code too much
22:30 jnthn There's some care needed in that known type can only apply not only if they all have the known type flag and the type is identical
22:30 jnthn s/not//
22:30 timotimo yes, i wrote code for that
22:30 jnthn ok
22:31 jnthn lizmat: Not immediately sure what's up with the num32 thing
22:31 timotimo https://github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/c​ompare/merge_facts_at_phi#diff-bdb​f6e0e93824a0943b389d4236067a3R1161
22:31 lizmat jnthn: feels like something is wrong at the VM level to me
22:32 lizmat $ perl6-j -e 'my num32 $s = 0e0; $s = $s + 4e0; say $s'
22:32 lizmat 4
22:32 lizmat no such pb on the JVM, apparently
22:33 lizmat although num32 init still seems faulty:
22:33 lizmat $ perl6-j -e 'my num32 $s; say $s'
22:33 lizmat NaN
22:34 jnthn lizmat: Well, nums are meant to be init to NaN
22:34 jnthn lizmat: but yes, I think it's VM level too
22:34 lizmat m: my num32 $a; $a++; say $a
22:34 camelia rakudo-moar 67156c: OUTPUT«1␤»
22:34 jnthn yeah, that's bust
22:35 lizmat seems ok to me?
22:35 jnthn m: my num $a; $a++; say $a;
22:35 camelia rakudo-moar 67156c: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
22:35 lizmat but I'm surprised to see such a high level thing as NaN to be in a num
22:35 jnthn huh?
22:35 jnthn NaN is an IEEE concept
22:35 lizmat ah, ok
22:35 lizmat yeah, that makes sense  :-)
22:36 jnthn As are Inf and -Inf
22:36 timotimo does IEEE float have +0 and -0?(
22:36 jnthn Yes.
22:36 jnthn I asked in my class today why that's the case. :)
22:37 lizmat m: my num $a = -0e0; say $a
22:37 camelia rakudo-moar 67156c: OUTPUT«-0␤»
22:37 jnthn The answer I expected somebody may know is that it depends what size you approached from in various calculations.
22:37 jnthn *side
22:37 timotimo yeah
22:37 jnthn The answer I got was that apparently you care about psotive and negative luminosity of stars :)
22:37 timotimo oh, that's cool
22:37 lizmat m: my num32 $a = -0e0; say $a   # num32 different again
22:38 camelia rakudo-moar 67156c: OUTPUT«0␤»
22:38 jnthn Yes, but I felt entirely unqualified to comment on it :)
22:38 jnthn lizmat: Yeah, I think something's up with num32
22:38 lizmat $ perl6-j -e 'my num32 $s = -0e0; say $s'
22:38 lizmat -0
22:39 lizmat so JVM ok
22:39 jnthn timotimo: I don't see any obvious bugs in what you wrote.
22:39 timotimo thank you :)
22:39 jnthn lizmat: Yes, moar is doing something wrong there. otoh, I wonder a bit if JVM is actually storing a single-precision number or not :)
22:39 sjn http://osdc.no/news/1309 # please submit talks for OSDC.no & NPW
22:39 timotimo first it segfaulted inside optimize_smart_coerce because "known type" was flagged and the type that's known was the null pointer, so ... wat.
22:40 jnthn Yes, but I think we guard against that somewhere else?
22:40 jnthn It should never happen though.
22:40 jnthn So something's not right there.
22:40 timotimo i put a guard into smart_coerce to prevent that problem, but yeah ... shouldn't happen in the first place
22:40 jnthn aye
22:41 jnthn So we should probably figure out what sets it to NULL while setting the "known type" flag
22:41 timotimo yup
22:41 timotimo i can do that, actually
22:41 jnthn sjn: Will submit something later in the week, when I'm done with teaching and having beer-liking colleagues in town :)
22:41 timotimo my brane should feel up to the task
22:41 jnthn My brain taught 30 people today, and is a tiny bit frazzled :)
22:42 sjn pmichaud: ^ URL's for you too :)
22:42 sjn jnthn: great! :D
22:42 * sjn hopes as many as possible submits a talk, so we can have a proper Perl 6 gathering in Oslo again.
22:43 jnthn sjn: I drank stout in that cellar place with the awesome log fire and agreed to give a half-day workshop thingy on Perl 6, as I remember it :)
22:43 sjn jnthn: lots of opportunities here, be creative :D
22:43 jnthn sjn: So I'll submit that and then some "normal" talk, I think.
22:43 sjn we have at least two days to play with
22:44 jnthn Maybe I'll submit an abnormal talk too, then :P
22:44 sjn reserving a "Perl 6 demo room" or a hackathon or an unconference track...
22:44 jnthn sjn: btw, I *will* be in Oslo next week for a little bit after all
22:44 sjn oh, cool!
22:45 jnthn So if any Oslo.pm folks fancy, say, Crow Bar, on 23rd, I'd be up for it. :)
22:45 sjn heeh
22:45 sjn that may just happen :)
22:45 * jnthn likes that place :)
22:46 sjn mm
22:46 sjn will you be staying at the same hotel as last week?
22:46 dalek roast: 591288e | lizmat++ | S09-typed-arrays/native-num.t:
22:46 dalek roast: Add test for NaN,-Inf,Inf on native num arrays
22:46 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/591288ee2a
22:46 jnthn No idea.
22:46 sjn ook
22:46 jnthn I don't actually know what part of town I'll be teaching in
22:47 jnthn Might be out in hell fire.
22:47 sjn hehe
22:48 sjn ping me or krunen or arnsholt when you know!
22:48 jnthn Will do.
22:48 timotimo ah
22:48 timotimo iter_facts is a very bad offender
22:48 dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 18 commits to rakudo/newio by lizmat
22:49 timotimo seems like someone isn't setting up the array_iterator_type and hash_iterator_type in nqp, which isn't terribly surprising
22:49 lichtkind_ joined #perl6
22:50 timotimo oh wow
22:50 timotimo that's a very bad miss %)
22:50 timotimo and it's my fault, as is to be expected
22:51 jnthn lizmat++ # p6weekly
22:51 timotimo i'm glad i noticed such a grave mistake before the release this time
22:52 timotimo but it's been in there for $longtime i believe
22:52 * jnthn isn't going to attempt to land his current spesh-related branch ahead of the release.
22:53 skids joined #perl6
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22:54 timotimo i'm sorry i implied that "we" are playing it fast and loose with types; I have been the one %)
22:54 timotimo let's see if that was the only place moar's been messing up facts
22:55 timotimo OK, XML still doesn't build
22:59 jnthn Teaching tomorrow again, so I should probably sleep :)
22:59 jnthn o/
22:59 lizmat good night, jnthn.  will soon follow  :-)
23:01 LonelyGM good night everyone! :)
23:01 lizmat LonelyGM o/
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23:04 timotimo huh
23:05 skids joined #perl6
23:05 timotimo Cannot unbox a type object
23:05 timotimo at src/gen/m-Perl6-Optimizer.nqp:516  (/home/timo/perl6/rakudo/../install​/languages/nqp/lib/Perl6/Optimizer.​moarvm:delete_unused_magicals:17)
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23:06 dalek rakudo/nom: 051c602 | lizmat++ | src/core/native_array.pm:
23:06 dalek rakudo/nom: Make my int @a = Range about 1000x faster
23:06 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/051c602483
23:06 timotimo ooooh
23:06 timotimo that's a lot of fast
23:06 lizmat Before: $ 6 'my int @a = ^10000'   # real0m17.962s
23:07 lizmat After: $ 6 'my int @a = ^10000'  # real0m0.282s
23:07 lizmat speedup because it doesn't need to build a list before assigning
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23:08 timotimo neato
23:08 lizmat m: my num @a = ^10000   # should this work ?
23:08 camelia rakudo-moar 67156c: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native number␤  in method STORE at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:11213␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/GZwDN02eFi:1␤␤»
23:09 MadcapJake joined #perl6
23:09 timotimo mhh, this is an unfortunate thing
23:09 * lizmat is going to sleep on that one
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23:52 dalek rakudo/nom: 0f780b2 | timotimo++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.nqp:
23:52 dalek rakudo/nom: BlockVarOptimizer's $!poisoned can be a native int
23:52 dalek rakudo/nom:
23:52 dalek rakudo/nom: gives a tiny bit better code-gen.
23:52 dalek rakudo/nom: also, this tripped up one of my opts, so kudos to
23:52 dalek rakudo/nom: this non-native int attribute for kicking my butt :)
23:52 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0f780b2f8a

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