Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2015-03-24

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:05 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
00:21 timotimo turns out today's (yesterday's?) p6weekly will be a tad late %)
00:28 telex joined #perl6
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00:31 raydiak m: say <1/2>.perl
00:31 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«0.5␤»
00:32 raydiak m: say <1/2>.WHAT
00:32 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«(Rat)␤»
00:32 raydiak m: say 0.5.WHAT
00:32 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«(Rat)␤»
00:33 raydiak timotimo: ^^^ weekly item: rat literal syntax works now
00:34 raydiak (not all the qw/val() stuff yet though)
00:34 timotimo you made it work?
00:34 raydiak yep
00:34 raydiak Mouq++ was kind enough to suggest a refinement and merge it
00:35 timotimo awesome :)
00:36 raydiak m: say <0x1F/0o77>
00:36 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«0.492063␤»
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00:54 timotimo i wonder why rakudo executing -e 'say 1' is faster on my laptop than on my desktop
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01:06 hoelzro timotimo: strace?
01:10 dalek rakudo/tab-completion: 3e3b22e | hoelzro++ | src/Perl6/Compiler.nqp:
01:10 dalek rakudo/tab-completion: Eliminate redundant loads of linenoise when setting it up
01:10 dalek rakudo/tab-completion: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3e3b22e82b
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01:11 `7stud Hi.
01:11 hoelzro hello `7stud
01:12 `7stud I'm trying to follow the docs and create an iterator for an array.  That is not my ultimate goal, but here is the code:
01:13 `7stud 1. my @a = (1, 2, 3,);
01:13 `7stud my $iter <== @a;
01:13 `7stud print $iter.get;
01:13 `7stud And the result is: No such method 'get' for invocant of type 'Array'
01:13 `7stud in block <unit> at 1.pl:16
01:14 `7stud The docs I'm following are here: http://moritz.faui2k3.org/pugs/docs/Perl6/Spec​/S07-iterators.pod.html#The%20Iterator%20Role
01:15 hoelzro `7stud: you may want to look at the official, up-to-date docs: http://design.perl6.org/S07.html#Iterators
01:15 skids `7stud: those are very old docs.
01:15 `7stud hoelzro: Okay, I'll check those docs out.
01:17 skids Also I think that there may be some not-yet-implemented things in that area of rakudo.
01:18 hoelzro m: my @a <== grep { $_ %% 2 } (1..10); say @a.perl;
01:18 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/QqnsouXycN␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/QqnsouXycN:1␤------> 3my @a <== grep { $_ %% 2 }7⏏5 (1..10); say @a.perl;␤    expecting any of:␤        infix stopper␤        infix or meta-infix␤      …»
01:19 hoelzro m: my @a <== grep { $_ %% 2 }, (1..10); say @a.perl;
01:19 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«Array.new(2, 4, 6, 8, 10)␤»
01:19 hoelzro huh, apparently feed operators are AI
01:22 `7stud I looked at those docs, and there doesn't seem to be a way to get an iterator for an array.  Basically, I want an iterator that I can call get() or next() on so that I can control the iteration.
01:23 skids m: my @a <== map { .say }, 0..10; @a.shift.say; # hoelzro: I think feeds are not yet properly lazified.
01:23 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«0␤1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤6␤7␤8␤9␤10␤True␤»
01:23 hoelzro ahhh
01:24 skids `7stud: You are doing this for concurrency/coroutine type purposes?
01:24 `7stud No.
01:24 [Coke] gather/take works.
01:25 [Coke] er, that's to add to an array - if you want one element off the array, .pop?
01:25 `7stud I just want to write a for loop over a lazy list, and then I want to write a while loop inside the for loop that kicks in at some point and can continue the iteration.
01:27 `7stud In ruby, I would do that with an Enumerator type, eg. e = list.each, then I can call e.next when I want.
01:28 skids Yes, that is what feeds are good for.  But unfortunately you are both too early and too late to use that feature -- pugs had it, but rakudo's is not working yet.
01:29 `7stud Okay, thanks.
01:29 skids In the meantime, I am sure we can find an equivalent feature.
01:29 skids If you want to give us a look at a code snippet so we can answer better to your needs.
01:30 `7stud I can implement it with a bunch of if statements and flags.
01:30 [Coke] m: my @stuff = 1..Inf; for @stuff -> $i { say $i; last if $i>10}
01:31 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤6␤7␤8␤9␤10␤11␤»
01:31 hoelzro whoa, why didn't that blow up? I thought you had to use := binding or it would try to fill the @stuff container
01:31 [Coke] I don't think you can pull more $i's while you're in that particular kind of for loop.
01:37 timotimo feeds are working in rakudo partially
01:42 rspr joined #perl6
01:42 rspr I was checking on contributing to perl6
01:43 rspr But I am not a perler...I am a java developer and outside that I work on python
01:45 rspr anybody could answer my query it would be great
01:46 `7stud left #perl6
01:46 skids m: my @bigarray = (1,2,3,4); my @a := gather for @bigarray { "take $_".say; take $_ }; loop { my $v = @a.shift; last unless $v.defined; "loop $v".say; if ($v == 2) { $w = @a.shift; "skip $w".say; } }; # gah seconds too late for `7stud
01:46 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/za7JuMP_tu␤Variable '$w' is not declared␤at /tmp/za7JuMP_tu:1␤------> 3efined; "loop $v".say; if ($v == 2) { $w7⏏5 = @a.shift; "skip $w".say; } }; # gah s␤    expecting any of:␤        postfix␤»
01:46 timotimo hey rspr
01:46 skids whoops.
01:46 timotimo i came directly from python to perl6, i have no perl5 experience whatsoever :)
01:47 rspr That's encouraging
01:47 skids m: my @bigarray = (1,2,3,4); my @a := gather for @bigarray { "take $_".say; take $_ }; loop { my $v = @a.shift; last unless $v.defined; "loop $v".say; if ($v == 2) { my $w = @a.shift; "skip $w".say; } }; # just for completeness
01:47 rspr I found perl a bit syntactically complex..
01:47 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«take 1␤loop 1␤take 2␤loop 2␤take 3␤skip 3␤take 4␤loop 4␤»
01:47 timotimo i'm now one of the greatest 100 contributors to the perl6 effort! :D
01:47 timotimo i find at least perl6 to be quite logical in its makeup of operators
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01:48 rspr I would like to follow suit.. ☺
01:48 timotimo like <, >, <=> for numbers, lt, gt, leg for strings
01:48 rspr What can a beginner do r perl6f
01:49 timotimo as well as: || for or, && for and, ... ?? ... !! ... for the ternary operator
01:49 timotimo and having !, ?, &&, || have loose-precedence equivalents not, so, and, or
01:50 timotimo well, you can give us feedback on our documentation while you learn, you can give us feedback on bugs and performance of rakudo for things you've tried, you can test or make modules; that'd be on the coding side
01:50 rspr okay..sounds good
01:50 timotimo i should stop procrastinating the perl6 weekly post :S
01:51 rspr Regarding setup and all I can revert back to site I guess
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02:13 timotimo hm?
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02:30 hoelzro anyone know the licensing for the Rakudo logo (http://rakudoperl.org/wp/wp-content​/uploads/2011/04/rakudo-1001.png)?
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02:39 hoelzro I started a repo for Docker stuff, so that we can have an official rakudo-star repo: https://github.com/hoelzro/perl6-docker
02:39 hoelzro it would be fantastic if someone could help me move it under the perl6 org tomorrow!
02:39 retupmoca .tell FROGGS I successfully followed your msi build instructions (using strawberry perl), so they must be complete :)
02:39 yoleaux retupmoca: I'll pass your message to FROGGS.
02:41 adu_ hi everyone
02:41 skids o/
02:41 timotimo hola adu
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03:01 timotimo m: say ":)".comb>>.uniname
03:01 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«No such method 'uniname' for invocant of type 'Str'␤  in method dispatch:<hyper> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:1415␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/fzbpfAnCRM:1␤␤»
03:01 timotimo m: say uniname ":"
03:01 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«COLON␤»
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03:16 adu_ what was >> again? map? fold? reduce?
03:17 timotimo map
03:17 timotimo damn, can't finish the weekly like this!
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03:18 timotimo the cat just came over onto the couch, slammed his body onto the comfy seat and presented his belly to me for rubbing reasons
03:18 timotimo d'aaw
03:19 adu_ weekly?
03:19 timotimo "come on, slave, it's time for you to earn your keep"
03:19 adu_ lol
03:19 timotimo p6weekly.wordpress.com
03:20 adu_ negative arrays?
03:20 timotimo hm?
03:20 adu_ I think I might have had a use case for negative arrays, once, 10 years ago
03:20 dalek doc: 103c676 | skids++ | lib/Language/glossary.pod:
03:20 dalek doc: Add "constraint" to glossary.
03:20 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/103c676473
03:20 adu_ o wait, that says native arrays
03:21 adu_ oops
03:21 adu_ timotimo: I'm sorry I'm a bad reader
03:21 timotimo hehe
03:27 timotimo ok, looks like the cat has had enough
03:29 adu_ awww
03:31 timotimo the other cat is now licking a corner of a cardboard box
03:31 timotimo i've seen (well, heard) her do that at least a dozen times in the short time i've gotten to know her
03:31 timotimo cats are strange %)
03:35 timotimo m: say <1+2i>.WHAT
03:35 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«(Str)␤»
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03:41 timotimo since it's already crazy late, I just went ahead and published the post for monday (yes, yesterday) without asking for reviews before
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03:45 adu_ yey for lazy deserialization!
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03:46 timotimo :)
03:47 adu_ Coke++ for macports work :)
03:48 adu_ [Coke]++
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04:19 * skids wonders if RT#124162 which he filed tonight would happen on star (before lazy deserialization was turned on)
04:19 * synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=124162
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04:27 timotimo skids: there's a #define in moarvm's "sc.h" that you can flip to try it out
04:27 * timotimo goes to bed, finally
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06:23 moritz }o{
06:25 moritz timotimo++ # p6weekly
06:26 FROGGS[mobile] ohh, have to read
06:26 FROGGS[mobile] morning o/
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07:16 FROGGS .
07:16 yoleaux 02:39Z <retupmoca> FROGGS: I successfully followed your msi build instructions (using strawberry perl), so they must be complete :)
07:16 FROGGS retupmoca: \o/
07:19 [Tux] panda install Inline::Perl6 Slang::Tuxic
07:19 [Tux] resolve stage failed for Inline::Perl6: Project Inline::Perl6 not found in the ecosystem
07:19 [Tux] in sub die at lib/Panda.pm:180
07:19 [Tux] user error :) Inline::Perl5 of course passes
07:20 * [Tux] started from scratch after reading perl6weekly
07:20 [Tux] \o/ RT#123597 also fixed
07:20 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=123597
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07:42 FROGGS timotimo++ # weekly
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08:01 nine_ .tell japhb I could not reproduce it with a freshly installed Ubuntu 14.04 LTS Server VM :( You're probably using the desktop version? I can try that, too, but have diminishing hopes of success. Could you maybe get me a backtrace? Might at least give me an idea what's going on.
08:01 yoleaux nine_: I'll pass your message to japhb.
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08:28 bartolin m: $_ = 0; s{^(\d+)$} = sprintf "%3d -", $_  # RT #123597
08:28 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=123597
08:28 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context  in block <unit> at /tmp/CY4s_p_XwN:1␤␤Error while creating error string: No exception handler located for warn␤»
08:29 bartolin [Tux]: ^^ this has changed, but doesn't look quite right so me
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08:38 lizmat timotimo++  # P6W
08:42 bartolin yeah, timotimo++
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09:14 azawawi hi
09:14 yoleaux 23 Mar 2015 22:08Z <FROGGS> azawawi: https://github.com/rakudo/star/blob​/master/tools/star/windows-msi.pod
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09:17 dalek rakudo/newio: bc08619 | usev6++ | src/core/operators.pm:
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio: Do not return the previous value when generator function of sequence calls 'last'
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio:
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio: fixes things like 'say 10,9,8, { diff - 1 || last } ... *'
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/bc08619e1e
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio: 9b5d4e2 | FROGGS++ | src/core/operators.pm:
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio: Merge pull request #393 from usev6/nom
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio:
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio: Don't return previous value when generator function of sequence calls 'last'
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9b5d4e256a
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio: a57affe | lizmat++ | src/Perl6/World.nqp:
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio: Don't curry if there's nothing to curry
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio:
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio: This fixes the LTA error on e.g. Hash[]:
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio:
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio:  Too few positionals passed; expected at least 3 arguments but got only 2
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a57affe8c2
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio: 9746e88 | TimToady++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp:
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio: require existing character before peeking delims
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9746e88dd1
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio: 6d97b03 | lizmat++ | src/ (3 files):
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio: Merge branch 'nom' into newio
09:17 dalek rakudo/newio: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6d97b032a4
09:17 FROGGS hi azawawi
09:18 azawawi FROGGS: thanks :)
09:22 lizmat .tell jnthn is STORE_AT_KEY supposed to be a public API or not ?
09:22 yoleaux lizmat: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
09:23 bartolin assuming, I provide an additional multi candidate for infix:<cmp> which matches when comparing a user defined class A with an Int with the following code:
09:23 bartolin multi sub infix:<cmp> (A $x, Int $n) { $x.val cmp $n }
09:23 bartolin is that supposed to be visible "everywhere"?
09:23 lizmat no, only in the scope you define it, afaik
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09:24 lizmat or if exported from a module, where you use the module
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09:24 bartolin more to the point: somewhere in 'sub SEQUENCE' there is code like '$value cmp $n' and it looks like my multi candidate is not used there
09:25 lizmat is your candidate narrow enough?
09:25 moritz that's what 'lift' is supposed to do
09:25 moritz but it's NYI
09:25 bartolin lizmat: I think so -- it works if I call it manually
09:26 bartolin there is a (longish) gist for my problem: https://gist.github.com/usev6/2e43b83757e5c0e719fc
09:26 lizmat moritz: lift isn't even speculated about anymore
09:26 moritz lizmat: uhm, no, it seems I'm more than a year behind things
09:27 * bartolin has never heard about 'lift'
09:28 lizmat .oO( it was lifted from speculation )
09:28 bartolin *g*
09:29 lizmat moritz: spec commit eb0f21689e70b3280745e2  (4 nov 2013):
09:29 lizmat unspec statement_prefix:lift
09:29 lizmat
09:29 lizmat This is going away in favor of better parameter declarations that can
09:29 lizmat implicitly default to operators as seen by the caller.
09:30 lizmat afk for a few hours&
09:30 bartolin o/
09:31 Ven It's funny of one of emacs' most liked plugins, magit, uses the same "scheme" as vim...:)
09:33 azawawi FROGGS: which visual studio are you using btw to build the msi?
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09:44 FROGGS azawawi: 2010 on the 32bit machine and 2012 on my 64bit
09:45 FROGGS azawawi: but retupmoca++ just built using strawberry perl last night
09:45 azawawi FROGGS: really? i just tried it and it didnt work
09:45 azawawi FROGGS: using the 64-bit strawberry perl
09:47 * azawawi reads yesterday's irc logs
09:53 * azawawi tries to build rakudo using VS2012
09:54 FROGGS the build environment is the same as if you build rakudo from the git repositories...
09:54 FROGGS except that you additionally need the WiX Toolset for the msi
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10:24 cygx azawawi: it is possible to build rakudo using Strawberry Perl, but you manually have to manually copy around some files that end up in the wrong places
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10:24 cygx azawawi: also, the setting won't compile if JIT or optimizations are enabled
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10:52 moritz cygx: a summary of files that end up in the wrong places would be very helpful (where they end up, where they should end up)
10:56 azawawi cygx: Thanks for the info. Could you please provide the file list?
11:02 cygx moritz, azawawi: it's a bit more involved than I remember
11:02 cygx first, there's https://gist.github.com/cygx/bdd2e4b00706aad5d38b to get the import library into lib/
11:03 cygx then, moar.dll should probably end up in bin/ instead of lib/ (if you don't want to add lib/ to your path)
11:03 cygx the nqp and rakudo Configure.pl need to be made aware of MinGW's gmake
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11:09 moritz I'm pretty sure they can handle alternative 'make' names already, in some form or another
11:11 cygx moritz: MoarVM can, but as far as I can see, in Rakudo an NQP. it's just $^O eq 'MSWin32' ? 'nmake' : 'make'
11:12 moritz cygx: maybe it was the parrot backend that extracted config info from parrot
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11:35 masak timotimo++ # https://p6weekly.wordpress.com/2015​/03/24/2015-12-a-release-also-lazy-​deserialization-makes-a-comeback/
11:35 masak timotimo: I like the idea about blogging about evals, btw.
11:35 masak maybe in a separate blog post from the weekly one?
11:37 moritz also note that the IR clogs have a summary feature which you can use for just such a purpose
11:38 moritz that is, mark the eval and response lines as summary, then only view the summary, and copy&paste the summary HTML into your post
11:38 moritz and yes, I'd like that too
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11:54 retupmoca FROGGS, *: I build the msi using strawberry perl, but I was still using VS for the C compiler - not MinGW
11:56 FROGGS ahh
11:56 FROGGS that explains it
11:59 FROGGS though, would be nice to be able to build with mingw without manually moving files around
12:02 moritz is this a general Windows thing, that that libraries/dlls are searched in the same path as executables?
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12:04 cygx moritz: yes (cf https://msdn.microsoft.com/​en-us/library/7d83bc18.aspx )
12:06 azawawi moritz: this article explains the DLL search order on win32 https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/​windows/desktop/ms682586%28v=vs.85%29.asp​x#search_order_for_desktop_applications
12:07 azawawi moritz: so to simplify it... windows system, windows directory then your $PATH
12:09 azawawi quick question, should site/lib be first before lib in @*INC?
12:09 azawawi otherwise installing stuff from panda cannot override those installed in rakudo star
12:12 azawawi perl -e "print \"@INC\""  => C:/Strawberry/perl/site/li​b/MSWin32-x64-multi-thread
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12:12 azawawi m: say @*INC
12:12 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«file:/home/camelia/ra​kudo-inst-1/share/perl6/lib inst:/home/camelia/rakudo-inst-1/share/perl6␤»
12:33 psch \o
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12:46 dalek nqp/no-readlineint: be10c79 | hoelzro++ | src/HLL/Compiler.nqp:
12:46 dalek nqp/no-readlineint: Preserve interactive eval context as an attribute of the compiler
12:46 dalek nqp/no-readlineint: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/be10c7967d
12:47 dalek rakudo/tab-completion: 8494d41 | hoelzro++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
12:47 dalek rakudo/tab-completion: Bump NQP_REVISION
12:47 dalek rakudo/tab-completion: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8494d41105
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14:13 arnsholt We're still using Panda to install modules and stuff, right?
14:13 timotimo correct
14:13 timotimo ufo is still usable, too
14:13 timotimo (iirc)
14:13 PerlJam I don't know about everyone else, but *I* use panda  ;)
14:14 timotimo you can use panda-build and panda-test, too instead of ufo
14:16 hoelzro o/ #perl6
14:18 timotimo heyo hoelzro
14:18 lucas___ Hello!
14:19 lucas___ Now that antipairs was added to S32/Containers, it's mentioned 2 times. One on its own and one with kv,pairs,etc.
14:19 hoelzro hello timotimo
14:20 lucas___ under the Hash entry...
14:21 retupmoca timotimo: re: GTK .dll files: who do I need to talk to to get the .dll's rehosted? Also, I'd like to add a dep on LWP::Simple so we can automagically download them in Build.pm, if that makes sense
14:21 lucas___ also, why not rewrite Hash.{antipairs,invert} in terms of the pair methods?
14:21 lucas___ %hash.map: *.invert
14:21 lucas___ %hash.map: *.antipair
14:22 lucas___ what do you think?
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14:27 hoelzro could someone do me a favor and help me move my docker repo under the perl6 org?
14:28 skids .oO(do pairs and antipairs annihilate if they hit each other? :-)
14:28 FROGGS hoelzro: what power do you need?
14:28 * FROGGS has no idea about docker whatsoever
14:29 hoelzro FROGGS: I just need to transfer github.com/hoelzro/perl6-docker to github.com/perl6/docker
14:29 FROGGS hoelzro: can you rename it first?
14:29 FROGGS or wait
14:31 timotimo it always annoys me that github shows "forked from blah"
14:31 timotimo i'd personally build a repo with the correct name and just let hoelzro push there
14:31 timotimo unless there's wiki or issues
14:31 hoelzro that's good with me
14:31 hoelzro there's nothing but commits atm
14:34 FROGGS[mobile] joined #perl6
14:35 FROGGS hoelzro: can you add that as a additional remote and then push everything? https://github.com/perl6/docker
14:35 FROGGS does that work?
14:36 FROGGS …or push an existing repository from the command line
14:36 FROGGS git remote add origin git@github.com:perl6/docker.git
14:36 arnsholt How long should the "Fetching panda" step take?
14:36 FROGGS git push -u origin master
14:36 FROGGS arnsholt: depends on the size of that dir
14:36 timotimo arnsholt: something's making panda's "grab all ze files" very, very slow
14:36 FROGGS arnsholt: do you have an .panda-work dirs in it?
14:36 arnsholt It's a fresh git clone
14:36 FROGGS ahh
14:36 hoelzro FROGGS: done, thanks!
14:36 FROGGS \o/
14:37 arnsholt Just checking, in case something has gotten stuck
14:37 timotimo if nobody objects, i'd build a tiny little progress indicator for panda's stages
14:37 FROGGS sounds interesting
14:38 arnsholt Definitely
14:38 zjmarlow joined #perl6
14:39 hoelzro oh, does anyone know the license of the Rakudo logo?
14:41 muraiki joined #perl6
14:43 sergot hi #perl6!
14:43 FROGGS hi sergot
14:44 hoelzro hello sergot
14:47 timotimo hoelzro: i do not :(
14:47 hoelzro =(
14:47 hoelzro maybe I should just use Camelia for the docker repo?
14:47 FROGGS hoelzro: if in doubt it is this: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/LICENSE
14:50 masak sergocie! \o/
14:51 skids hoelzro: pmichaud might know.
14:51 TimToady lucas___: yes, we could make the language more orthogonol there, but I prefer a fractal geometry closer to natural langauges
14:51 hoelzro thanks folks; I'll stick around to see if pmichaud or others know
14:51 PerlJam FROGGS: the logo isn't in that repo is it?
14:52 larion joined #perl6
14:52 masak for once I agree with TimToady about orthogonality vs fractality.
14:52 masak it makes sense to have those methods on Hash
14:53 PerlJam .oO( for once? )
14:54 lucas___ TimToady, masak: thanks!
14:54 lucas___ I was just talking about the specs...
14:54 masak PerlJam: I still think .ords is very silly
14:54 masak PerlJam: when >>.ord exists
14:55 [ptc] FROGGS: do you mean with "a great many links" that the text should be improved?
14:55 TimToady masak: you mean .comb».ords
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14:55 masak ah, yes. of course.
14:55 masak anyway, that latter way is how I'd write it.
14:56 TimToady er, .comb».ord
14:56 masak :)
14:56 TimToady I always thought it was a weird discontinuity to have ord on the first character but not on the rest of them
14:57 PerlJam also seems like .ords is more optimizable than .comb».ord  (not that that's the primary concern)
14:57 FROGGS [ptc]: is "a great many links" proper English?
14:58 TimToady yes, that's fine English
14:58 FROGGS ewww
14:58 FROGGS English--
14:58 dalek star: 438a4c3 | paultcochrane++ | README:
14:58 dalek star: Fix minor typos
14:58 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/438a4c30ff
14:58 dalek star: 1018ddd | paultcochrane++ | README:
14:58 dalek star: Purge trailing whitespace
14:58 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/1018ddd327
14:58 dalek star: fb9b17e | paultcochrane++ | README:
14:58 dalek star: Wrap paragraphs and vertically separate sections consistently
14:58 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/fb9b17eb59
14:58 dalek star: 1e4ea3a | FROGGS++ | README:
14:58 dalek star: Merge pull request #44 from paultcochrane/pr/readme_fixups
14:58 dalek star:
14:58 dalek star: Some README fixups
14:58 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/1e4ea3ad39
14:58 FROGGS PerlJam: I thought it was :/
14:59 TimToady more modern English would be "lots of links", but that's not particularly better by any measure except keystrokes
15:00 [ptc] FROGGS: yeah, it's a bit old-fashioned, but it works
15:00 [ptc] that's why I didn't change it
15:00 TimToady so "a great many" is more impressive these days than "lots of"
15:00 TimToady due to the vague archaicism
15:01 FROGGS perhaps it is like "eine große Vielzahl" in German
15:01 TimToady lots of links is just a fact, but a great many links make you open your eyes wider
15:01 FROGGS yeah, I see now
15:01 [ptc] FROGGS: hrm, I see what you mean, a bit doppelgemoppelt
15:02 FROGGS exactly exactly!
15:02 FROGGS :P
15:02 * [ptc] grins
15:02 TimToady you can say that again
15:02 TimToady .oO(you can say that that again)
15:02 FROGGS I really <3 that channel :D
15:03 FROGGS TimToady: I hear your sentence(s) with echo effect in my voice
15:03 TimToady hopefully like Enya!
15:03 TimToady or is it more of gated reverb like Madonna?
15:03 FROGGS ohh, more like Enya
15:04 * TimToady wants some exciter and some chorus too, to make me sound like more people
15:04 LonelyGM joined #perl6
15:04 TimToady (those are actually the four effects I've been using lately on our church's sound board :)
15:06 FROGGS hmmm, now I wanna hear Mike Oldfield :/
15:07 cygx left #perl6
15:07 TimToady the weird thing psychologically is that as you add more reverb, things sound farther away, so you actually have to turn down the reverb if you want something to sound more intimate
15:08 TimToady .oO(here we are in the echo chamber being distant from each other...)
15:09 * TimToady wanders off into the distance to get more coffee
15:10 Ven joined #perl6
15:10 telex joined #perl6
15:16 dalek gtk-simple/dllfetch: 9c14014 | retupmoca++ | / (5 files):
15:16 dalek gtk-simple/dllfetch: Fetch .dll files when installing on windows
15:16 dalek gtk-simple/dllfetch:
15:16 dalek gtk-simple/dllfetch: Incomplete: still need to figure out where to host .dll files.
15:16 dalek gtk-simple/dllfetch: review: https://github.com/perl6/gt​k-simple/commit/9c1401431b
15:18 retupmoca timotimo: ^ is this better than the binaries-in-git approach?
15:19 retupmoca (as it does add a dependency; albeit one that is installed already with star)
15:26 [ptc] there don't seem to be Debian control files or RedHat .spec files inside the perl6 GitHub repos.  If one wanted to start updating, e.g. the relevant Debian control files, where should one put them?
15:26 [ptc] Would a new repo be necessary?
15:27 hoelzro [ptc]: I started on some debian control files if you want to have a look
15:27 hoelzro they're not in a repo, though
15:28 [ptc] hoelzro: yeah, that sounds good
15:28 [ptc] hoelzro: I've got the old ones directly from Debian, but they rely on parrot, and are from 2014...
15:29 PerlJam [ptc]: do you intend on collecting the various OS dist deployment options in one place?  (or just those two?)
15:29 [ptc] PerlJam: I was wondering about that.  I'm not 100% sure.
15:29 hoelzro I also have an Arch PKGBUILD, but it's pretty out of date
15:29 hoelzro also, where did [Coke] put his work?
15:30 [ptc] separate repos sounds like too much work
15:30 [ptc] but then one would have unrelated changes within the same repo for different OSes
15:30 [ptc] I think one repo is probably best (for a start) and then one can split them if necessary
15:30 masak decommute &
15:30 PerlJam [ptc]: agreed.
15:30 PerlJam [ptc]++
15:32 [ptc] can members of the perl6 GitHub team create new repos?
15:33 [ptc] if so, then I'll make one and we can start swapping some code.  Need a good name though....
15:33 tadzik I get "insufficient permission"
15:33 hoelzro [ptc]: http://hoelz.ro/files/p6-debian.tar.xz
15:33 hoelzro I tried last night and couldn't =/
15:33 [ptc] hoelzro: thanks :-)
15:33 hoelzro [ptc]: sure thing! the MoarVM one is the most complete
15:34 PerlJam [ptc]: "owners" can.
15:34 [ptc] hoelzro: wow, several different configs.  Cool.
15:35 hoelzro [ptc]: I'm no debian expert, so I apologize for the state of those files
15:36 retupmoca someone-with-access-to-p6c-web-directories: can you help me rehost some GTK .dll files somewhere for GTK::Simple windows installs?
15:36 dalek doc: 51cb139 | (Edwin Steiner)++ | lib/Language/setbagmix.pod:
15:36 dalek doc: Remove some redundant words which probably remained from a copy&paste.
15:36 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/51cb139f22
15:36 dalek doc: bb4d9b3 | (Edwin Steiner)++ | lib/Language/setbagmix.pod:
15:36 dalek doc: Attempt to clarify the description of set/bag intersection.
15:36 dalek doc:
15:36 dalek doc: I found the phrase "maximum weight all of the arguments share" a bit
15:36 dalek doc: confusing. Hopefully this new version is clearer. Your milage may
15:36 dalek doc: vary, I guess.
15:36 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/bb4d9b334a
15:36 dalek doc: f64f3cf | paultcochrane++ | lib/Language/setbagmix.pod:
15:36 dalek doc: Merge pull request #62 from edwinst/master
15:36 dalek doc:
15:36 dalek doc: A couple of edits for "Sets, Bags, and Mixes"
15:36 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f64f3cf708
15:37 tinyblak joined #perl6
15:38 [ptc] hoelzro: neither am I :-)  No need to apologise!  We can clean up as necessary.  The main thing is they work ;-)
15:38 hoelzro heh, we'll see about that =)
15:38 hoelzro I think that the MoarVM build made lintian a little angry
15:39 hoelzro I think something to do with MoarVM being built with -rdynamic, or something?
15:39 [ptc] I'll have a play with debootstrap in a minute and see what it throws at me
15:40 timotimo retupmoca: kind of weary of fetching binary files like .dll over a HTTP link
15:42 retupmoca timotimo: SHA-256 check them on download? or https? other?
15:42 [ptc] PerlJam, hoelzro: how does "os-build-configs" sound as a repo name?  Or maybe "linux-dist-build-configs"?
15:42 [ptc] PerlJam, hoelzro: I don't want the name to be too long though...
15:43 skids repodepot!
15:43 PerlJam skids++  :)
15:43 spider-mario joined #perl6
15:43 PerlJam [ptc]: just "os-build" would work for me.
15:43 timotimo retupmoca: a sha-256 check seems prudent
15:44 timotimo https would be even better, but known hashsums also seem fine
15:44 PerlJam [ptc]: with an appropriate README that explains what the repo is all about
15:44 [ptc] PerlJam: yeah, that would do.
15:44 PerlJam [ptc]: or, you could go with a cute/catchy name  :)
15:44 [ptc] PerlJam: for a while there I was thinking "os-build" could be to build different OSes...
15:45 timotimo retupmoca: i do have an account on www.p6c.org; should i just pull the exact .dll files from the git repository?
15:45 [ptc] PerlJam: repodepot is cool, however :-)
15:45 retupmoca timotimo: please :)
15:45 PerlJam [ptc]: I note that timotimo is an "owner" of perl6 too if you want to add the repo  there.
15:46 timotimo oh, yeah i think i am
15:46 PerlJam timotimo: I just looked, so I *know* you are  :)
15:46 PerlJam (I was checking if I was an owner, and I'm not)
15:46 [ptc] timotimo: could you make a new perl6 repo called "os-build", please?
15:47 hoelzro os-build sounds good
15:47 [ptc] timotimo: the plan is to store build configurations for different OSes there
15:47 hoelzro or packages/packaging
15:47 timotimo will do
15:47 PerlJam timotimo++
15:47 [ptc] timotimo: danke dir!
15:48 timotimo or perhaps this may be better in rakudo/?
15:49 [ptc] no idea.  I'd like it to be somewhere, where I can hack at the files...
15:49 larks joined #perl6
15:49 timotimo right
15:49 timotimo https://github.com/perl6/os-build
15:49 [ptc] and I don't have rakudo privs (which is probably a good thing ;-) )
15:50 [ptc] \o/
15:50 PerlJam timotimo: putting it in perl6 could aid in getting people to add non-rakudo builds (if there's ever a demand for such things)
15:50 [ptc] timotimo++
15:50 timotimo right, PerlJam++
15:51 [ptc] timotimo: could you add a stub README in the repo, please?  That way it makes it easier to clone the repo
15:51 [ptc] well, I'm guessing a bit about that, just that I can't see a link on GH atm
15:52 timotimo it is done
15:52 [ptc] ... or I could use my brain and stop typing
15:52 [ptc] timotimo: cool, thanks :-)
15:54 dalek infrastructure-doc: 01fa6a8 | PerlJam++ | hosts/hack.p6c.org.pod:
15:54 dalek infrastructure-doc: Add other sudoers
15:54 dalek infrastructure-doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/infras​tructure-doc/commit/01fa6a8ae8
15:55 timotimo retupmoca: did you force-push over the git repo and removed the commit that uploaded the .dll files? :)
15:56 retupmoca no, there are two branches
15:56 timotimo oh
15:56 timotimo of course
15:56 retupmoca one with the bundle, one with the fetch
15:57 retupmoca hmm...Digest::SHA's pure-perl implementation is too slow for these files
15:57 timotimo they probably haven't been updated to take advantage of cool new rw buf stuff?
15:57 timotimo does windows' WinAPI have something that does sha256?
15:58 timotimo since we already require NativeCall anyway - and it's in rakudo now - that'd be an option
15:58 retupmoca not sure - I was pure-linux until a few months ago :)
15:58 skids Sum does provide SHA1 through libmhash, librhash, or libcrypto.
15:58 skids Or any sha actually.
15:58 skids well not sha3
16:02 dalek perl6-roast-data: d3ee0e5 | coke++ | / (8 files):
16:02 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
16:02 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/d3ee0e5d8e
16:06 skids As currently constructed, you should be able to just take lib/Sum/librhash.pm6 (or one of the other native lib support files) out of Sum and use it more or less solo with a bit of massage.
16:06 zjmarlow joined #perl6
16:10 flussence I wouldn't use the sha3-branded version of keccak - I read that the algorithm authors weren't comfortable with the way NIST "tweaked" their stuff after the fact.
16:11 skids I had read those concerns were a bit overblown.
16:11 flussence yeah, they probably are. There's plenty of other hashes to play with all the same...
16:11 sqirrel_ joined #perl6
16:14 flussence (I like the new convention openbsd's been pushing - sha256 with base64, it creates only slightly larger strings than sha1 + hex)
16:14 timotimo i'm not quite sure what i missed ... gtk-dlls.p6c.org isn't up yet
16:15 moritz well, if you need a new p6c.org subdomain, I need to add it to the DNS first :-)
16:15 timotimo ah, i thought we had a wildcard and did the rest via apache virtualhosts
16:15 timotimo so i'd like you to do that :)
16:16 moritz timotimo: should it go to www?
16:16 timotimo yes
16:16 zjmarlow_ joined #perl6
16:17 moritz timotimo: added, with 2001:780:101:ff00::80:6 as IPv6 address
16:18 moritz timotimo: and fwiw we have a wildcard for perl6.org subdomains, which makes a lot of sense because I don't have control of its zonefile
16:20 SamuraiJack joined #perl6
16:22 timotimo oh
16:22 timotimo i could have put the vhost on perl6.org then ... i'll remember that for the next time
16:22 TimToady m: https://gist.github.com/ano​nymous/48efcb021cc1dd55fdd2
16:22 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«Normal: Less␤Lifted: Same␤»
16:22 TimToady bartolin, moritz, lizmat: ^^^
16:23 TimToady we can actually do the right thing now, albeit without much sugar
16:25 * lizmat tries it in SEQ
16:25 TimToady though nowadays it looks more like lowering cmp than lifting it...
16:25 bartolin oh, great! TimToady++
16:25 * timotimo wonders about the performance implications
16:26 moritz timotimo: well, it can't compile-time resolve, dispatch or inline anything
16:26 TimToady well, it's a way to write code that is generic on your caller
16:26 TimToady so we can spesh on caller
16:26 timotimo oof
16:26 moritz the real problem is that it doesn't go all the way for nested calls
16:26 TimToady :D
16:27 timotimo well, when we inline, we'll be able to spesh on caller
16:27 timotimo so we'll capture the lexical environment of the caller early when entering the setting
16:27 TimToady moritz: that's a problem of identity, not mechanism
16:28 TimToady how do you know where to stop, if unspecified?
16:28 lizmat maively adding my &infix:<cmp> = CALLER::LEXICAL::{ '&infix:<cmp>' }; to SEQUENCE does not make bartolin's example work
16:28 lizmat afk again&
16:28 lizmat *naively
16:28 moritz where to stop inded
16:28 moritz *ee
16:28 TimToady nested calls might have to look further
16:29 TimToady or the top call needs to store it someplace handy
16:30 TimToady it's really the same interface that carp tries to find in P5
16:30 TimToady "my module" vs "their module"
16:30 TimToady P5 does it by detecting the package change
16:31 TimToady dunno if that'd work in P6
16:32 TimToady we haven't though much about carp either...
16:36 nige1 joined #perl6
16:38 TimToady *thought
16:41 anaeem1 joined #perl6
16:43 timotimo retupmoca: http://gtk-dlls.p6c.org/ is now reachable from my box
16:44 TimToady m: https://gist.github.com/ano​nymous/2fafaef93a43c3cb2dbe
16:45 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«Normal: Less␤Lifted: Same␤»
16:45 TimToady ^^^ there's the "store it in a convenient place" approach
16:45 TimToady in this case, a dynvar
16:45 TimToady and force cmp to use the dynvar
16:47 TimToady the only infix:<cmp> allows us to define a lexical cmp that is really generic on the original caller
16:47 Perl6_newbee joined #perl6
16:47 TimToady so the mechanisms are there for correctness, if not for efficiency or ease of expression
16:48 TimToady note that in this case, the boundary is defined by the top-level routines that set $*CMP, not by a package change
16:50 bartolin I guess, I have to ponder about that a bit :)
16:52 pierrot joined #perl6
16:54 TimToady note that in this case the package boundary would've worked too, since I put the service routine into a class
16:55 TimToady but we don't have a pseudo-package that means CALLER-FROM-DIFFERENT-PACKAGE::
16:55 TimToady (yet... :)
16:55 TimToady CLIENT:: or so
16:56 retupmoca timotimo++ moritz++
16:58 hoelzro if I have a PseudoStash $ps, I *should* be able to look at its containing scopes via $ps<OUTERS>, right?
17:03 TimToady but CALLER doesn't appear to know the package the caller was compiled in :/
17:04 anaeem1 joined #perl6
17:05 mr-foobar joined #perl6
17:05 TimToady m: sub foo () { say callerframe(1) }
17:05 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/7MpnxDADwA␤Undeclared routine:␤    callerframe used at line 1. Did you mean 'callframe', 'callsame'?␤␤»
17:05 TimToady m: sub foo () { say callframe(1) }
17:06 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: ( no output )
17:06 TimToady m: sub foo () { say callframe(1) }; foo
17:06 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«CallFrame.new(level => 3, annotations => ("file" => "/tmp/ZzrW7S0Ayw", "line" => "1").hash, my => EnumMap.new("\$=pod" => Mu, "!UNIT_MARKER" => Mu, "GLOBALish" => Mu, "\$!" => Mu, "\$/" => Mu, "::?PACKAGE" => Mu, "EXPORT" => Mu, "\$_" => Mu, "\$?PACKAGE" =…»
17:06 TimToady m: class Me; sub foo () { say callframe(1) }; foo
17:06 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«CallFrame.new(level => 3, annotations => ("line" => "1", "file" => "/tmp/v5YuIrDC_L").hash, my => EnumMap.new("\$_" => Mu, "::?PACKAGE" => Mu, "\&foo" => Mu, "\$?PACKAGE" => Mu, "\$?CLASS" => Mu, "::?CLASS" => Mu))␤»
17:08 TimToady package being Mu there looks like a bug or a NYI
17:09 TimToady can't implement carp if that's wrong...
17:14 TimToady m: class Me; sub foo () { say callframe(0) }; foo
17:14 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«CallFrame.new(level => 2, annotations => ("file" => "/tmp/_rxKjhLZ2b", "line" => "1").hash, my => EnumMap.new("RETURN" => Mu, "\$/" => Mu, "\$*DISPATCHER" => Mu, "\&?ROUTINE" => Mu, "\$_" => Mu, "\$!" => Mu))␤»
17:16 diana_olhovik joined #perl6
17:18 japhb .botsnack
17:18 yoleaux :D
17:18 yoleaux 08:01Z <nine_> japhb: I could not reproduce it with a freshly installed Ubuntu 14.04 LTS Server VM :( You're probably using the desktop version? I can try that, too, but have diminishing hopes of success. Could you maybe get me a backtrace? Might at least give me an idea what's going on.
17:19 japhb .tell nine_ Gah, OK, I'll see what I can do, thanks for trying!
17:19 yoleaux japhb: I'll pass your message to nine_.
17:19 arnsholt So, um, "Fetching panda" has been running for 55 minutes and is using 2 gigs of memory. Still normal?
17:20 tinyblak joined #perl6
17:21 * arnsholt tries updating NQP and Rakudo
17:22 dalek gtk-simple/dllfetch: 7161373 | retupmoca++ | Build.pm:
17:22 dalek gtk-simple/dllfetch: Fix native lib test, add proper URL and SHA verify
17:22 dalek gtk-simple/dllfetch: review: https://github.com/perl6/gt​k-simple/commit/71613739c4
17:23 dalek gtk-simple/dllfetch: b0d561a | retupmoca++ | Build.pm:
17:23 dalek gtk-simple/dllfetch: Remove undeeded 'use'
17:23 dalek gtk-simple/dllfetch: review: https://github.com/perl6/gt​k-simple/commit/b0d561a22a
17:24 retupmoca timotimo, *: does the above look decent?
17:31 flussence looks pretty sane, imo
17:31 raiph joined #perl6
17:32 pmichaud hoelzro: (rakudo logo)  -- it can be treated under license terms similar to that of the camelia logo.  I'll put something "official" together for that next week.
17:32 flussence (um, shouldn't gtk-dlls.p6c also provide a download of the source?)
17:34 Rounin joined #perl6
17:39 xdbr_ joined #perl6
17:43 [ptc] timotimo: are you there?
17:43 [ptc] timotimo: would it be possible to give perl6 team members write privs to the os-build repo?
17:43 timotimo sure
17:44 [ptc] timotimo: I just tried to push and was refused due to perms
17:44 timotimo k
17:44 [ptc] timotimo: sweet, cheers
17:44 timotimo done
17:44 [ptc] timotimo++
17:50 * masak waves from a train
17:51 eli-se joined #perl6
17:51 nwc10 a moving train?
17:51 eli-se hi there
17:52 masak nwc10: it moves most of the time.
17:52 masak nwc10: but this *is* Sweden.
17:52 nwc10 I was about to check "forwards?"
17:53 anaeem1_ joined #perl6
17:55 masak that's a thorny issue. it's moving in the direction I want.
17:55 masak it was delayed already as we left the station.
17:56 masak now it stopped again.
17:56 nwc10 I had INVISBLE TRAM this evening
17:56 PerlJam masak: but at least you have us!  :)
17:57 nwc10 the board counted down from 4 minutes to 1, then it blinked (meaning it should be going)
17:57 nwc10 then it went to 0 (which is *not* normal)
17:57 nwc10 (but by this point I'd figured that I was being lied to)
17:57 nwc10 and then it vanished
17:57 nwc10 I did find a tram later on going in the correct direction
17:58 [ptc] nwc10: was it INVISBLE because "I" was missing in it?
17:58 nwc10 (problem seems to have been a serious acident further up, and things getting diverted etc)
17:58 nwc10 [ptc]: I guess so :-)
17:58 nwc10 I fail at both English and LOLCAT
17:58 nwc10 much errors, very fail, whoops.
17:59 flussence it's spelled "INVIZIBL"!
17:59 flussence (I think.)
18:02 awwaiid joined #perl6
18:02 dalek gtk-simple: 9c14014 | retupmoca++ | / (5 files):
18:02 dalek gtk-simple: Fetch .dll files when installing on windows
18:02 dalek gtk-simple:
18:02 dalek gtk-simple: Incomplete: still need to figure out where to host .dll files.
18:02 dalek gtk-simple: review: https://github.com/perl6/gt​k-simple/commit/9c1401431b
18:02 dalek gtk-simple: 7161373 | retupmoca++ | Build.pm:
18:02 dalek gtk-simple: Fix native lib test, add proper URL and SHA verify
18:02 dalek gtk-simple: review: https://github.com/perl6/gt​k-simple/commit/71613739c4
18:02 dalek gtk-simple: b0d561a | retupmoca++ | Build.pm:
18:02 dalek gtk-simple: Remove undeeded 'use'
18:02 dalek gtk-simple: review: https://github.com/perl6/gt​k-simple/commit/b0d561a22a
18:02 retupmoca ^ GTK::Simple is now simpler to install on windows
18:02 liztormato joined #perl6
18:03 larion joined #perl6
18:03 liztormato Isn't it spelled "                  "?
18:03 raydiak retupmoca++
18:04 zjmarlow_ joined #perl6
18:05 TimToady liztormato: only if those are uppercase spaces
18:06 mohij joined #perl6
18:08 liztormato joined #perl6
18:09 larion joined #perl6
18:10 hoelzro pmichaud: awesome, thanks!
18:11 eli-se There should be a phaser of which the name consists of uppercase spaces.
18:12 eli-se It would be consistent with all other phaser names.
18:16 TimToady .u
18:16 yoleaux U+200A HAIR SPACE [Zs] ( )
18:18 FROGGS joined #perl6
18:18 FROGGS o/
18:19 FROGGS a colleague on mine has HAIR SPACE
18:20 FROGGS probably because of doing SAP every day
18:21 lolisa joined #perl6
18:21 eli-se ABAP best programming language
18:23 FROGGS >.<
18:23 FROGGS eli-se: should have been "ABAP best programming language."
18:24 timotimo ABAP Best Application Proglang
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18:38 FROGGS I am still not sure if we really want an "Inlined" REPR :/
18:39 FROGGS sergot: are you going to work on updating pointers passed from P6?
18:40 raiph joined #perl6
18:53 timotimo FROGGS: wouldn't just an option for the repr composition be enough?
18:54 FROGGS timotimo: that'd mean that you have to declare a CStruct twice, one as the inlined one and one for other purposes
18:55 timotimo actually
18:55 timotimo through the magic of the MOP ... maybe you can have a CStruct repr'd object have a meta-method "inlined" that creates the equivalent inlining version?
18:56 FROGGS and at what point do I call it?
18:57 moritz IMHO the correct solution would be a trait
18:57 timotimo hmm
18:57 timotimo probably
18:57 FROGGS moritz: it might be too late for a trait
18:57 moritz class X { has OtherStruct $.x is inline; has Struct APointerNow }
18:58 moritz FROGGS: then a separate declarator
18:58 moritz class X { inline OtherStruct $.x }
18:59 FROGGS I'd started to implement an 'is inlined' trait, but I do not see how to get at it when composing the class X in your case
18:59 moritz well, it'd have to alter something in the Attribute
19:00 moritz and the attribute is available through introspection
19:00 moritz http://doc.perl6.org/type/Metamodel::​AttributeContainer#method_attributes
19:02 moritz (you might need to add an attribute to Attribute)
19:03 FROGGS I need to pull out some information like in here: https://github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/blob/​master/src/6model/reprs/CStruct.c#L146
19:07 larion joined #perl6
19:09 _edwin joined #perl6
19:09 japhb My response to "ABAP best programming language" is ABEND.
19:10 japhb <-- Former SAP employee
19:11 FROGGS okay, traits happen too late atm
19:11 moritz japhb: to me, "ABAP" always looks like a variant of "ASAP", presumably "As Bureaucratic As Possible"
19:11 FROGGS japhb: but the good thing is you escaped! :D
19:12 _edwin hello! I noticed that in Rakudo, Set and Bag (and Mix) seem to preserve order of elements. Is this an accidental property of the implementation?
19:12 moritz _edwin: yes; you shouldn't rely on it
19:13 FROGGS http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Anagrams#ABAP *shudder*
19:14 brrt joined #perl6
19:14 _edwin moritz, ok, thanks. background: I'm thinking about emphasizing this difference of Set/Bag/Mix vs. List more in perl6/doc
19:15 * masak thinks it'd be worthwhile to scramble the order of elements in Set/Bag/Mix, just so people don't get the wrong idea
19:15 moritz _edwin: +1
19:15 moritz masak: +1
19:27 [Coke] I dislike the thought of performing extra cycles of work there.
19:27 TimToady just do it one time out of 20 :)
19:29 TimToady or just return things in the opposite order sometimes :)
19:31 timotimo yeah
19:31 timotimo i thought about just moving one single item about
19:31 timotimo like put the first item in a random place
19:32 larion joined #perl6
19:34 masak haven't looked at the source, but... why is the order preserved in the first place?
19:34 timotimo accidentally, i suppose
19:35 masak every single time?
19:35 timotimo i suppose it depends on what operations you do that accidentally preserve order
19:42 mj41 joined #perl6
19:42 TimToady m: say set(1,2,3) ∩ set(4,3,2)
19:42 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«set(2, 3)␤»
19:42 masak I'm just saying that I wouldn't expect a hash-based collection to preserve insertion order in the first place.
19:43 TimToady m: say set(4,3,2) ∩ set(1,2,3)
19:43 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«set(3, 2)␤»
19:43 xdbr_ joined #perl6
19:43 masak that intuitively feels like it would be slower than the fastest possible solution.
19:43 kaare_ joined #perl6
19:43 masak since part of the charm of hash-based collections is that they sacrifice ordering for quick access.
19:43 TimToady I believe lists of pairs are currently kept underneath, for some reason I don't understand
19:43 masak ick.
19:43 masak std: class GX {}; class C { has GY @.g }
19:43 camelia std 28329a7: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤In has declaration, typename 'GY' must be predeclared (or marked as declarative with :: prefix) at /tmp/KbbhOuLEuy line 1:␤------> 3class GX {}; class C { has GY7⏏5 @.g }␤Malformed has at /tmp/KbbhOuLEuy line 1:␤------> 3class GX…»
19:44 masak m: class GX {}; class C { has GY @.g }
19:44 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Type 'GY' is not declared␤at /tmp/v9aBBJBSzF:1␤------> 3class GX {}; class C { has GY7⏏5 @.g }␤Malformed has␤at /tmp/v9aBBJBSzF:1␤------> 3class GX {}; class C { has7⏏5 GY @.g }␤␤»
19:44 masak I like STD's error message better here.
19:44 moritz masak: it seems on moar, hashes are ordered
19:44 masak but I'm curious why both Rakudo and STD feel they need to add "malformed has" -- doesn't feel like it adds something after the first error.
19:44 masak moritz: :(
19:45 moritz m: my %h = ('a'..'z') Z=> 0..*; say %h.keys eq %h.keys.sort
19:45 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«True␤»
19:45 masak it's not so much that I like my hashes unordered -- it's that I think that making them ordered sets a bad precedent.
19:45 masak we've seen Perl 5 people marry their code to hash order, and then cry foul when the order changes.
19:46 * arnsholt can haz Panda o/
19:46 TimToady m: my %h = ('a'..'z').pick(*) Z=> 0..*; say %h.keys eq %h.keys.sort
19:46 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«False␤»
19:46 PerlJam masak: moreover, perl 5 people did it *accidentally* without realizing.  Having ordered hashes invites that history to repeat
19:46 moritz masak: agreed
19:47 * TimToady wonders if moar internals depend on that anywhere...
19:47 moritz m: my @k = ('a'..'z').pick(*); my %h = @k Z=> 0 xx *; say %h.keys eq @k
19:47 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«True␤»
19:47 arnsholt Hmm. May have to do something to get DBDish::Pg to work though, since I don't have a libpq.so (only libpq.so.5)
19:48 TimToady m: say ('a'..'z').pick(*)
19:48 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«v k w l a g q u e b r p t y x i n z c o s h m f d j␤»
19:49 TimToady so does .pick imply .flat after the GLR?
19:49 TimToady m: say ('a'..'z').elems
19:49 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«26␤»
19:49 TimToady m: say ('a'..'z',).elems
19:49 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«1␤»
19:49 TimToady m: say ('a'..'z',).pick(*)
19:49 camelia rakudo-moar 9746e8: OUTPUT«o z k m u c p g t n l i s x w q j e a v y d r h f b␤»
19:52 TimToady after GLR that last one might just return 'a'..'z' as an item, unless we say .pick flattens
19:53 lolisa joined #perl6
19:54 skids How many holes do we intend to poke in "mysub() flattens ().mymethod does not"?
19:59 larion joined #perl6
20:00 japhb Speaking of the GLR ... is that in progress now, or still in queue?
20:00 TimToady well, .for is already an exception
20:01 skids I think the bar should be set pretty high personally, enough so that module authors are discouraged from eing wishy washy about their interface.
20:02 masak japhb: I believe pmichaud is gearing up to do it.
20:02 masak japhb: "during April" is what I've heard, I think.
20:02 skids Because flattening behavior changes have accounted for over half the times things have broken under me.
20:09 _edwin are both the method and the sub meant to be spelled "unique"? in S32 the sub is still listed as "uniq"
20:09 TimToady uniq is a fossil
20:10 TimToady we changed from 'uniq' because Unix's uniq is really a squish
20:14 _edwin thanks, yes I saw squish today. this distinction is an example of the thoughtfulness that I love about Perl 6
20:18 dalek specs: 74e3d75 | (Edwin Steiner)++ | S32-setting-library/Containers.pod:
20:18 dalek specs: Replace "uniq" fossil with "unique".
20:18 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/74e3d75319
20:19 _edwin woo, my old commit bit still works :)
20:23 timotimo cool!
20:23 tinyblak joined #perl6
20:25 [Coke] jnthn++
20:26 * jnthn chuckles
20:26 yoleaux 23 Mar 2015 23:17Z <japhb> jnthn: How scalable are supplies, in terms of sheer volume of Supplies and taps that I can have active before performance falls over or RAM gets prohibitive?  My use case is an entity-relationship model for which I'm considering having an "updates" supply on every Entity and Relation, tapped by all clients who care about those nodes.  At least thousands x dozens.
20:26 yoleaux 09:22Z <lizmat> jnthn: is STORE_AT_KEY supposed to be a public API or not ?
20:27 jnthn Wasn't there a discussion yesterday along the lines of "Should .perl sort hashes?" "Hm, yes, sounds OK" "The gist should to!"
20:27 jnthn Today: "omgz the gist output of two set intersections is sorted" :P
20:28 masak wait -- I thought it was that hashes are intrinsically sorted
20:28 eli-se hashes are unordered
20:29 masak eli-se: you don't say ;)
20:30 masak eli-se: the dangers of jumping straight into a discussion without backlogging... ;)
20:30 jnthn masak: The discussion came up after doing a "say" though :)
20:30 TimToady jnthn: but the intersections I did weren't sorted
20:30 jnthn Moar curerntly uses uthash
20:30 eli-se It's not dangerous.
20:30 TimToady one was 2,3, the other 3,2
20:30 masak eli-se: no-one in the discussion is unaware that hashes are unordered.
20:31 masak eli-se: trust me, people on this channel are likely to know that ;)
20:31 jnthn Because it's (a) one of the faster off-the-shelf hash implementations there is, and (b) there was no reason to waste time writing custom hash code. :)
20:31 masak jnthn: does uthash preserve insertion order?
20:32 masak jnthn: and if it does, how in the world can it also be fast?
20:32 eli-se std::unordered_map!
20:32 jnthn masak: You're as capable of using google nad reading C code as I am.
20:32 jnthn *and
20:32 jnthn masak: Keeping insertion order doesn't imply not having O(1) lookup.
20:33 jnthn masak: Finding a bucket = O(1). Adding to a linked list = O(1). O(1) + O(1) = O(1). :)
20:33 jnthn Anyway, we won't keep it forever
20:33 nwc10 1 plus 1 is 1.
20:33 jnthn Not if you're in a big O :P
20:34 jnthn Uh, yes if you're in a big O.
20:34 jnthn :)
20:34 nwc10 use more sleep?
20:34 jnthn bah, where did I put that ice cream... :)
20:34 nwc10 hopefully not on the keyboard
20:34 jnthn Anyway, I suspect uthash being used in Moar won't last all that much longer.
20:34 jnthn It's getting in the way of us representing ASCII strings more compactly for one.
20:35 masak jnthn: I thank you for the confidence. I'm pretty sure I'm a fair bit less capable of reading C code than you are. :P
20:35 * TimToady has read the C code, and still wonders how it compares with P5 hashes
20:36 TimToady otoh, p5 hashes aren't trying to do anything other than utf8
20:36 skids Is packages/Test in roast vestigial?
20:38 jnthn TimToady: Well, for strings we only have to care about NFG :)
20:38 mj41 hoelzro: Hi. I read a bit of the docs. Now, I'm too tired :-). Let me know (or push) if you have any work in progress. Thx.  ... Useful links/repos are https://github.com/docker-library/of​ficial-images/pulls?utf8=%E2%9C%93&a​mp;q=is%3Apr+label%3Alibrary%2Fperl https://github.com/Perl/docker-perl https://github.com/docker-li​brary/docs/tree/master/perl
20:38 mj41 Dobrou noc.
20:40 dalek rakudo/union: e8992fa | FROGGS++ | / (5 files):
20:40 dalek rakudo/union: implement trait 'is inlined' for attributes
20:40 dalek rakudo/union:
20:40 dalek rakudo/union: This has only an effect for CUnions so far, but is easily extendable.
20:40 dalek rakudo/union: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e8992fa1ac
20:40 FROGGS jnthn: has Onion $.foo is inlined; # works now
20:41 jnthn FROGGS: ooh
20:41 jnthn Not sure "inlined" is the word we'll want in the end
20:41 jnthn But the semantics are the hard part to make work, so if you have those... :)
20:41 jnthn FROGGS++
20:41 * FROGGS wants to have this now: has array[int8] $.bar[32] is inlined
20:41 jnthn You'll have to wait a bit for that.
20:42 jnthn It'd also be spelt has int8 @.bar[32] I think
20:42 FROGGS jnthn: I am open for suggestions :o)
20:42 FROGGS jnthn: bah! doit the Java style!
20:42 * FROGGS .oO( verbose ftw! )
20:42 FROGGS 'for the win' -- even more java
20:43 FROGGS jnthn: but serious, if you find a better word for 'inlined'...
20:44 TimToady 'is here' :)
20:44 FROGGS I.... I'll wait for jnthn :P
20:44 skids Well the design docs use "compact".
20:45 skids But that doesn't capture the full semantic.
20:45 TimToady if the whole thing defaults to compact, then you need 'is there' instead
20:45 TimToady well, explicit Ptr or so
20:45 jnthn TimToady: S09 as far as I remember doesn't actually define how something becomes a compact struct
20:46 larion joined #perl6
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20:46 jnthn I mean, it has: "A class whose attributes are all low-level value types can behave as a struct."
20:47 TimToady yeah, that's a bit wishy-washy
20:47 TimToady certainly a 'struct' declarator would default that way though
20:47 TimToady but maybe that's too C
20:47 jnthn "Whether such a class is actually stored compactly is up to the implementation" is also kinda unhelpful given that for C interop it actually matters which is picked ;)
20:48 FROGGS +1 for /class is REPR(CStruct)/struct/
20:48 jnthn Well, class = reference type, struct = value type is actually very C# :)
20:48 FROGGS though, I am used to 'class is REPR(CStruct)'
20:48 jnthn FROGGS: Oh, I was considering this somewhat REPR-orthogonal.
20:48 jnthn In so far as a P6opaque is something that could potentially flatten itself into the body of another also.
20:49 jnthn The 6model impl on Moar is largely set up to cope with this
20:49 jnthn On JVM it's...uh...a little more fun :)
20:51 * TimToady wonders how long till someone aliases a HAS declarator to 'has ... is inlined'
20:51 jnthn I'd probably call it contains :)
20:52 psch is ENDSTMT actually supposed to be hit for every full statement?
20:52 TimToady too short, how 'bout incorporates :P
20:52 FROGGS hehe
20:52 TimToady HAZ
20:52 skids inscribed?
20:53 TimToady got @.arms;
20:54 jnthn It's not as common as "has", so I'm not sure it needs to be so huffmanized...
20:54 skids Or ingrained?  I should really put down aiksaurus now.
20:54 TimToady but it often wants to line up with has, is all
20:54 jnthn True
20:54 TimToady actuallh HAS ain't so bad
20:55 timotimo is HAS?
20:55 TimToady no, for the declarator
20:55 TimToady HAS Engine @.engine;
20:55 timotimo .o( is can has be hugs time now? )
20:55 TimToady er, $.
20:56 TimToady assuming you only have one engine...
20:58 jnthn All my transport today had more than one :)
20:58 TimToady you can haz a @
21:03 FROGGS what about 'own'? probably not I guess...
21:03 TimToady problem with that one is that it implies indirection just about as much as 'has'
21:04 FROGGS 'lay' has three letters...
21:05 jnthn Well, yeah, the "very clearly not indirection" was what I was angling for with "contains"
21:05 FROGGS what about 'ass' for assimilates :P
21:05 jnthn That's butt-ugly :P
21:05 FROGGS hehe
21:07 jnthn The real question, I guess is if we want to put the semantic on the type or the usage, though.
21:08 jnthn Or both. :)
21:09 TimToady .oO(the bike, or the shed, or both...)
21:10 jnthn Well, C puts it on the usage, and C# puts it on the type, so we've got examples out there of both :)
21:10 FROGGS I hope we dont put it on the type
21:10 TimToady I think if you want automatic memory management, your type had better know
21:11 jnthn FROGGS: Why, ooc?
21:11 FROGGS because that means I have to declare classes twice, one class for inlining, one class for referencing
21:11 TimToady the ptr has to know that it's pointing into the middle of someone else's struct
21:12 TimToady which is sort of neither the usage nor the type
21:12 jnthn TimToady: Well, that's more about taking a reference to the thing
21:12 jnthn That's actually yet another axis
21:12 jnthn In C# you can't actually get a reference to the thing that's embedded. If you want to talk about it, you end up copying it out.
21:12 FROGGS 'putting it on the type' was the reason I started with 'inlined by default'...
21:13 FROGGS and year, needing to put Pointer[] everywhere sucks
21:13 jnthn FROGGS: Do you have examples of APIs where you need to use the same type both ways?
21:13 FROGGS jnthn: libBox2D
21:14 FROGGS there is a Vec2 struct, that's often inlined but equally often referenced
21:15 jnthn ok
21:16 nige joined #perl6
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21:18 FROGGS jnthn: I rechecked.... b2Vec2 is always inlined, except for the cases it appears as an array...
21:19 jnthn FROGGS: It's not inlined into the array?
21:19 jnthn As in, not a comapct array, but array of pointers to b2Vec2s?
21:20 FROGGS an array of pointers to, aye
21:21 FROGGS err wait... inlined into an array in C?
21:21 jnthn Thingy *arr; vs Thingy **arr;
21:22 FROGGS http://google.github.io/liquidfun/A​PI-Ref/html/b2_rope_8h_source.html line 41
21:22 FROGGS it is b2Vec2* vertices;
21:23 FROGGS ahh, I got it
21:24 jnthn So, it is inlined into the array too then
21:25 FROGGS aye
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21:45 J-L If I'm using Perl6's REPL interface, is there a way to re-define a class without getting an error message telling me I'm redeclaring it?  (Maybe there's a way to "undefine" a class?)
21:48 jnthn J-L: Try "my class ..."
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21:51 hoelzro what about people's thoughts on bundling Linenoise.pm with Rakudo vs having a star module?
21:52 hoelzro it feels weird to bundle it, but it would greatly benefit Rakudo devs
21:52 jnthn hoelzro: What's the great benefit? :)
21:52 vendethiel repl completion :P
21:52 hoelzro jnthn: having REPL completion and history
21:53 jnthn ah
21:53 jnthn :)
21:54 hoelzro .tell mj41 I created a repo under github.com/perl6/docker; just waiting on word from the Docker folks
21:54 yoleaux hoelzro: I'll pass your message to mj41.
21:54 psch REPL completion and history \o/
21:55 [Sno] joined #perl6
21:55 psch now if i could just figure out a way to call moreinput only when i don't have a compilable statement
21:55 J-L jnthn:  Your "my class ..." suggestion works great.  Thanks!
21:56 psch i'm not sure what exactly MARKED and MARKER do, either
21:56 psch what i have keeps reading lines until one is completely empty
21:57 psch and stuff the read line into self.target and self.orig
21:57 debrowski joined #perl6
21:59 jnthn psch: MARKER "marks" the current position we're at with some "tag"
21:59 jnthn psch: MARKED checks if the current position is tagged that way
22:00 jnthn psch: It's used for stuff like avoiding duplicate whitespace parsing effort when we already know the current position is that, for example
22:01 psch jnthn: that'd fit with how i'm trying to use it
22:02 psch jnthn: but i think we're missing markers for ENDSTMT, in that case
22:02 debrowski left #perl6
22:02 psch or rather "this statement is now valid syntax"
22:02 work_op joined #perl6
22:06 jnthn psch: I think ENDSTMT is only one condition for "end of statement"
22:07 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
22:07 jnthn (The one where a } ends it, iirc)
22:08 jnthn See eat_terminator for more ways
22:08 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
22:16 [ptc] hoelzro: I've got moarvm and nqp building .debs; the rakudo deb still doesn't work, but it's just a matter of time
22:16 [ptc] hoelzro: thought you'd be interested :-)
22:16 hoelzro [ptc]: awesome!
22:16 hoelzro [ptc]++
22:16 hoelzro [ptc]: let me know if you want my Arch PKGBUILDS
22:16 hoelzro although I imagine I could just push them to the repo =)
22:16 [ptc] hoelzro: do you have commit privs on perl6/*
22:17 [ptc] ?
22:17 hoelzro yes
22:17 [ptc] ah, just what I was going to suggest :-)
22:17 [ptc] I've added a README with directory layout etc, so hopefully it makes sense where to put things
22:17 hoelzro cool
22:17 hoelzro I'll try to update them when I get home
22:18 [ptc] sounds good :-)
22:18 * [ptc] hits the hay
22:18 colomon joined #perl6
22:20 kjs_ joined #perl6
22:23 * jnthn gets some rest also &
22:23 psch g'night jnthn
22:24 psch also to [ptc] of course, if belated
22:24 lolisa joined #perl6
22:28 brrt joined #perl6
22:44 skids joined #perl6
22:50 eli-se joined #perl6
22:52 * psch &
22:53 Tux__ joined #perl6
23:13 flussence hashes are naturally ordered, but are hypers naturally randomized or do we still use the original hacky shuffle code for those?
23:13 flussence (would be nice if we mere users had a fastness-security tweaking pragma for this...)
23:23 raiph joined #perl6
23:33 kurahaupo1 joined #perl6
23:43 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 8754d88 | coke++ | log/ (9 files):
23:43 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
23:43 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/8754d88985
23:48 ugexe you gonna eventually do docker images for a daily build or newer?
23:49 ugexe it would make this p6 smoke test rpi cluster easier :O)
23:53 eli-se bye!

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