Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2015-06-01

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:47 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | http://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, std:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
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02:48 tadzik domm++'s blogpost (http://domm.plix.at/perl/2015_05_a_very_simple_perl6_script.html) makes me happy
02:49 tadzik It even features two of my creations :)
02:49 tadzik But it carries such a positive message, awesome
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07:46 RabidGravy morning
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07:48 tadzik Hello RabidGravy
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07:59 DrForr #125299 is a bit embarrassing :)
07:59 synbot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=125299
08:01 lizmat Good *, #perl6!
08:01 lizmat DrForr: I think that is actually a NYI, but I'm not 100% sure
08:02 DrForr Nod. I just keep seemingly running across these things at random.
08:03 lizmat DrForr: please, continue doing so  :-)
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08:04 DrForr Incidentally "porting" Debugger::UI::CommandLine to use Readline (in a very basic sense) took all of 15 minutes.
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08:10 DrForr m: my %x;%x<a>=\%x;say %x; # No progress here?
08:10 FROGGS_ m: say "#={ 42 }" # DrForr: your ticket is invalid
08:10 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
08:10 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«#=42␤»
08:10 FROGGS m: "#={"
08:10 FROGGS camelia: ?
08:10 FROGGS DrForr: me thinks your ticket is invalid
08:10 FROGGS $ perl6 -e '"#={"'
08:10 FROGGS ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling -e
08:10 FROGGS $ perl6 -e '"#={ say 42 }"'
08:10 FROGGS 42
08:10 FROGGS curlies get interpolated
08:10 FROGGS that shows it better:
08:10 FROGGS $ perl6 -e 'say "#={ 42 }"'
08:10 FROGGS #=42
08:10 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/jyPduEBqzV␤Unable to parse expression in double quotes; couldn't find final '"' ␤at /tmp/jyPduEBqzV:1␤------> 3"#={"7⏏5<EOL>␤    expecting any of:␤        double quotes␤        term␤»
08:10 FROGGS_ .perl and .gist do not handle recursive structures yet
08:10 FROGGS_ ewww
08:11 FROGGS_ bad FROGGS!
08:11 FROGGS DrForr: I am closing your ticket now
08:11 DrForr The error was about the closing quotes, not the interpolation.
08:12 FROGGS DrForr: you mean that '"' is mentioned in the error message?
08:12 DrForr Yes.
08:12 FROGGS ahh
08:12 * FROGGS adds that to the ticket
08:17 DrForr Inasmuch as I'd probably have caught it myself if it had said "Unable to parse interpolated expression at ..{..". The "double quotes" led me to believe that it simply interpreted '#' inside the string as a comment.
08:19 FROGGS star-m: "#={"
08:19 camelia star-m 2015.03: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/TivVUqk0iM␤Unable to parse expression in double quotes; couldn't find final '"' ␤at /tmp/TivVUqk0iM:1␤------> 3"#={"7⏏5<EOL>␤    expecting any of:␤        prefix or term␤        double quotes␤»
08:19 FROGGS std: "#={"
08:19 camelia std 28329a7: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Unable to parse double quotes at /tmp/KAmngcQcqe line 1:␤------> 3"#={7⏏5"␤Couldn't find final '"'; gave up at /tmp/KAmngcQcqe line 1 (EOF):␤------> 3"#={"7⏏5<EOL>␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 134m␤»
08:19 FROGGS :o(
08:20 lizmat packing it in and moving out&
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08:23 grondilu m: say '"#={"'
08:23 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«"#={"␤»
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08:56 RabidGravy something weird may have happened to the testers.perl6.org in the last few days:
08:56 RabidGravy "==> Test report submitted as: http://testers.perl6.org/reports/</html>.html"
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09:12 FROGGS uff
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09:14 kev-the-hasty Hello. Can anyone help me wiht some object.clone issues
09:15 FROGGS the last report is from 2015-05-29T18:43:02Z
09:15 FROGGS kev-the-hasty: hi
09:15 FROGGS kev-the-hasty: what's the issue?
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09:16 kev-the-hasty I have been struggling with deeper cloning of objects.
09:16 kev-the-hasty I discovered that objects with the .clone method only shallow copy.
09:17 kev-the-hasty But trying to work out syntax for deeper copying is strange.
09:17 kev-the-hasty I have found a roast test failing too.
09:17 kev-the-hasty https://github.com/perl6/roast/blob/master/S12-attributes/clone.t
09:17 kev-the-hasty Fails on 2015.05 and 2015.04 tests 15 and 17
09:18 FROGGS hmmm
09:18 FROGGS deep cloning is not yet implemented I think
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09:18 kev-the-hasty specifically I am trying to write a chess program in perl6. I need to keep a multidimensional array for white/black and then a list of indexes to another array.
09:19 kev-the-hasty I also discovered that sub's with copy are doing the shallow clone (what I would expect) but subs without rw are mutable
09:20 kev-the-hasty I have a test program to illustrate - not sure how to show it here
09:21 kev-the-hasty I understand deep cloning not implimented. Not sure how to work around. but I suspect shallow cloning is a bit broken.
09:21 Ven kev-the-hasty: you can use a gist here, IIRC
09:22 kev-the-hasty ok. hang on a tick
09:22 FROGGS gist or another pastebin will do, aye
09:22 FROGGS RabidGravy: problem should be fixed now
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09:28 kev-the-hasty https://gist.github.com/kevincolyer/7aad41a836beb1eb75cd
09:29 kev-the-hasty Hmmm. Just switched machines and struggling to get it to compile now. Let me know if problems.
09:30 FROGGS kev-the-hasty: remove the second param from sub immutable
09:30 FROGGS kev-the-hasty: and spell it 'use Test;' in line 63
09:31 FROGGS and btw, arrays and hashes are mutable without 'is rw'
09:31 kev-the-hasty Ha! runs now. Thjanks
09:34 kev-the-hasty So how do I create a deep clone of an object then? Can't do a recursion without it and I need a lot of that sort of thing in evaluation functions in chess engine
09:38 RabidGravy FROGGS++ # cheers
09:39 RabidGravy FROGGS, yeah all worky again
09:40 FROGGS \o/
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09:46 kev-the-hasty Been working at it some more and updated gist. https://gist.github.com/kevincolyer/7aad41a836beb1eb75cd
09:47 kev-the-hasty Can't seem to clone attributes in. Am I missing some syntax - keeps copying a reference to $a.deep I think.
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09:57 kev-the-hasty Driving me a little bonkers!
10:14 kev-the-hasty Could anyone advise on https://gist.github.com/kevincolyer/7aad41a836beb1eb75cd
10:15 kev-the-hasty A workaround would be most helpful until deep cloning is working.
10:16 smls kev-the-hasty: Couldn't you give your class a copy method like this: https://gist.github.com/smls/7a005bcc3716e993ae09
10:17 smls Alternatively, you could try to restructure your algorithm so it becomes more functional and doesn't require modifying data structures in-place.
10:18 smls Although I realize that may not be a very good answer.
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10:19 smls As for automatic deep cloning of arbitrary objects, I don't think it exists.
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10:22 kev-the-hasty @smls that looks interesting. I guess deepmap descends and maps using *.clone to copy?
10:23 smls it descends into iterable data structures, yes
10:26 smls see http://design.perl6.org/S32/Containers.html#line_392
10:26 kev-the-hasty @smls as to my algorithm. I'm writing a chess program that has an object representing the current position of a games. I understand I am using an object to represent it, but I could use a hoaoa or something! To deeply search for new positions I need to duplicate the position and to make moves etc. Would be frustrating to go to a hash. Will look into your gist some more!
10:30 smls kev-the-hasty: The problem with deepmap is that it does not descend into the value of Pair's, so you would need special handling for a hash-of-hash or hash-of-arrays
10:31 andreoss design.perl6.org is searchble now. good
10:32 andreoss may be some one will fix http://wiki.perl6.org too
10:32 andreoss jk
10:35 kev-the-hasty @smls I think I am getting it working now. Thanks so much. I'll let you know how I get on!
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10:58 smls Actually, .deepmap *does* properly recurse into the keys of associative data structures like hashes. Updated the gist to show it.
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11:01 masak good afternoon, #perl6
11:02 smls g'day
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11:05 nwc10 good heresy, masak
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11:09 * liztormato waves to masak from the terrace, waiting for a taxi
11:13 FROGGS o/
11:13 * FROGGS is going to be more active here starting this evening
11:14 liztormato ++FROGGS !
11:14 nwc10 I hope that this is for good reasons.
11:15 FROGGS $dayjob was just a bit too much for the last week (including weekend)
11:16 masak FROGGS: I know what you mean.
11:16 masak well, not weekend, which was lovely.
11:16 liztormato left #perl6
11:17 FROGGS masak: my weekend *was* lovely... the current project is quite fun
11:17 masak oh, good for you.
11:17 masak as long as you can keep it from being too much, at least.
11:18 FROGGS true
11:18 FROGGS this is the project I want to turn into Perl 6 at some point...
11:19 masak \o/
11:19 masak let's bring that point about! :D
11:19 FROGGS though I cannot do this now since it uses quite some deps and it is a multithreaded middleware service including a frontend for tickets for technicians
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11:25 cschwenz Good * #perl6 :-)
11:26 cschwenz Why does .print use .Str while .say uses .gist?
11:27 masak cschwenz: I ask myself that almost every day >:(
11:28 smls I guess those were deemed the most useful combinations, and having separate functions for *all* combinations would have been excessive :)
11:28 masak cschwenz: the reason is something like, `print` is more low-level, for file handles and the like.
11:28 smls but yeah, I'm not a big fan of that situation either.
11:28 masak smls: I think we have too many stringification methods.
11:28 masak one or two too many.
11:28 cschwenz :-(
11:28 masak why does .Str absolutely have to be distinct from .gist, for example?
11:29 cschwenz thanks for the answers.  :-)
11:29 smls maybe .gist should be relegated to dd() and be 100% optimized for debugging, while all the "normal" printing functions get to use .Str
11:29 masak yeah, something like that.
11:29 masak many .Str methods delegate to .gist anyway
11:29 smls true
11:33 smls The worst part is imo that .gist tries to be both useful for debugging and for machine-/end-user-readable output, and thus excels at neither.
11:33 smls But .perl is not great for debugging either, especially for regex matches where it is much too verbose.
11:34 smls it's like all of them are missing a clear singular purpose :P
11:35 masak aye
11:36 masak Python seems to nail this one, and quite effortlessly somehow.
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11:38 DrForr Maybe I should try .gist in my debugging tests for comparison, but the presence of the full string in every submatch when I'm debugging a grammar simply overwhelms me with noise.
11:38 DrForr Sorry, that could be better phrased.
11:39 masak yeah, I never print match objects, not even when I'm debugging.
11:39 masak maybe that's the reason :)
11:39 DrForr Maybe .gist would be a quieter way to debug my issues. When I've simply dumped the Match object in the past, the presence of the enire string repeated throughout the submatches makes it too noisy.
11:40 DrForr .perl output with just a *bit* more formatting would be ideal. I understand that .perl should be dense, I've got no issue with that.
11:41 DrForr It's why in my test suites I go to the trouble of writing out the *entire* nested structure longhand, rather than do is-deeply() on a substructure right off the bat.
11:41 masak m: given 5 { when 5 { proceed; say "!" }; say "OH HAI" }
11:41 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
11:41 * masak thought so
11:47 smls DrForr: Yeah, .gist is currently best you to print match objects for debugging purposes.
11:47 smls Although when your data structure contains *both* nesting *and* match objects, you're screwed.
11:49 * DrForr silently points to a grammar with 5 levels of nesting.
11:49 |Tux| does p6 have a similar call for "select STDERR" as in "all default out goes to STDERR from now on"
11:49 RabidGravy what's the rationale behind "Cannot put a type constraint on an 'our'-scoped variable" is it by design or just that it's difficult to implement?
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11:50 smls m: our Str $foo
11:50 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/bbH4a4toUx␤Cannot put a type constraint on an 'our'-scoped variable␤at /tmp/bbH4a4toUx:1␤------> 3our Str $foo7⏏5<EOL>␤    expecting any of:␤        constraint␤»
11:50 smls huh
11:52 smls |Tux|: Simply doing  $*OUT = $*ERR;  seems to work.
11:52 smls $  6 '$*OUT = $*ERR; say "yay"' >&-
11:52 smls yay
11:53 |Tux| yiacks. that looks destructive! local $*OUT = $*ERR would work too?
11:53 FROGGS or 'my $*OUT'
11:53 smls I guess that would be called   temp $*OUT = $*ERR
11:54 |Tux| both are ugly to rewrite from «$error and select STDERR;»
11:55 |Tux| but I get the general direction
11:57 smls m: say (await do for ^10 { start { $_ ** 2 } }).perl
11:57 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«(0, 1, 4, 9, 16, 25, 36, 49, 64, 81)␤»
11:57 smls ^^ I ran this one-liner on my computer ten times in a row, and...
11:57 smls - 7 times is ran normally
11:57 smls - 2 times it crashed with "===SORRY!=== Cannot invoke this object (REPR: Null)"
11:57 smls - 1 time it hung seemingly indefinitely (had to CTRL+C it)
11:57 smls Is there something wrong with that code, or is concurrency support in r-m still this buggy?
11:59 moritz code looks fine to me :/
11:59 smls :(
12:00 moritz m: for ^20 { await do for ^10 { start { $_ ** 2 } } }
12:00 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«Memory allocation failed; could not allocate 656 bytes␤»
12:00 moritz m: for ^10 { await do for ^10 { start { $_ ** 2 } } }
12:00 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«Memory allocation failed; could not allocate 656 bytes␤»
12:00 moritz m: for ^5 { await do for ^10 { start { $_ ** 2 } } }
12:00 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«Memory allocation failed; could not allocate 656 bytes␤»
12:00 moritz m: for ^2 { await do for ^10 { start { $_ ** 2 } } }
12:00 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«Memory allocation failed; could not allocate 656 bytes␤»
12:00 moritz m: for ^1 { await do for ^10 { start { $_ ** 2 } } }
12:00 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: ( no output )
12:00 moritz m: for ^2 { await do for ^5 { start { $_ ** 2 } } }
12:00 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: ( no output )
12:01 moritz m: for ^3 { await do for ^5 { start { $_ ** 2 } } }
12:01 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«Memory allocation failed; could not allocate 656 bytes␤»
12:03 smls looks like camelia may have bigger problems, if she can't allocate a mere 656 bytes :P
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12:17 timotimo smls: if you run with a more recent MoarVM than the NQP_REVISION and MOAR_REVISION require, you're going to be running a build where concurrency problems are brought to the front more readily
12:17 smls how come?
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12:21 timotimo remember how moar used up 100% of a core whenever you used something event-loopy?
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12:29 RabidGravy smashing
12:29 timotimo oh, i wanted to explain a bit more
12:30 timotimo well, that part got fixed and that caused racy behavior to happen more readily, as the core wasn't busy busy-waiting
12:32 smls ok
12:33 timotimo but if you just "rakudobrew install" or something, you'll get a version that uses the alot of cpu, but doesn't race as heavily
12:33 timotimo but yeah, sadly we have stability issues at the moment with multi-threading
12:36 DrForr m:=end FOO
12:36 DrForr Hrm, not sure how the bot's parser would handle that :)
12:48 moritz m: my $x␤=begin foo
12:48 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/5cnrzTGBLT␤Undeclared routines:␤    begin used at line 2␤    foo used at line 2␤␤»
12:48 moritz m: my $x;␤=begin foo
12:48 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/rEfcaf4geA␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix = instead␤at /tmp/rEfcaf4geA:2␤------> 3=begin 7⏏5foo␤»
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13:30 * |Tux| mutters that to-json should *also* be a Str method
13:30 |Tux| easier to switch between .gist .to-json and .perl
13:34 * brrt disagrees because he still (naively maybe) thinks that json will die in a few decades time
13:35 brrt json is not *really* a good serialisation format, and we should not necessarily prefer one format over another, anyway
13:37 cognominal we need a p6on :)
13:37 FROGGS ohh please dont
13:37 |Tux| everything that is printable but not always visible is lost in .gist (\t) but overly quoted in .perl
13:37 huf what's wrong with json? apart from no support for any complex datatype and inconsistent float handling? :)
13:38 huf and some unicode-related inconsistencies with javascript, iirc.
13:38 |Tux| I still want x[00a0] to show as \x[a0] or somesuch
13:39 brrt anyway, huf, that's precisely what's wrong with it :-P
13:39 |Tux| " being special in the default available methods. it doesn't need escaping to show it's specialness, but because to-json and .perl use " to quote the whole string it is escaped
13:39 huf brrt: yes yes but apart from _all_ that :)
13:40 huf it's a great config file syntax! it has no support for comments at all :)
13:40 huf the only reason json caught on is because it's not xml.
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13:41 brrt :-P please encode for me, in a way that everybody understands: a): a complex number, b): a geographic coordinate, c): a timestamp with a tiemzone information
13:41 moritz and because it's possible to implement json (de)serialization in an afternoon
13:41 brrt but yeah
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13:42 brrt d): binary data
13:42 huf moritz: okay, yeah, that was important too
13:42 huf brrt: luckily, json has strings. and you can serialize _anything_ into strings :)
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13:51 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 43c9e46 | coke++ | log/ (2 files):
13:51 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
13:51 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/commit/43c9e46bbb
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14:32 cognominal what is the way to wait until all the started Proc::Async have existed?
14:33 timotimo collect the promises returned by .start and await that list
14:33 cognominal thx
14:35 cognominal works great indeed
14:35 timotimo :)
14:38 cognominal Need to reread S17 and watch jnthn++ talks to get the most of Perl 6 asynchrony
14:39 timotimo a good plan
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14:39 cschwenz cognominal: do you have links to said talks?
14:39 timotimo some things were renamed since the last available recorder jnthn asynchrony talk, iirc
14:40 cognominal cschwenz, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBHsdc0IVIg&amp;feature=youtu.be&amp;a
14:41 cschwenz awesome!  thanks.  :-D
14:41 cognominal In fact, he has done that talks many times, and each times it gets better
14:42 cognominal cschwenz,  http://www.jnthn.net/papers/2014-apw-objects-concurrency.pdf   these are the slides from a previous version of the talk
14:43 cschwenz \o/
14:43 cognominal cschwenz,  and the code  for  extensions used in the examples  https://github.com/jnthn/oo-monitors/  https://github.com/jnthn/oo-actors/
14:44 timotimo well, the talk about oo-monitors and oo-actors isn't the one about asynchrony i was thinking about
14:45 cognominal like I said the talk has mutated, or there are altogether different talks and I am confused.
14:47 cognominal Another one about reactive programming https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VdIQTtRkb8
15:01 rjbs If I'm writing a class or module, is p6 in a stricter mode than the main program, in some way?
15:02 timotimo hm? what do you mean?
15:02 rjbs I don't know.  A discussion of p6 from 2006 says:
15:03 rjbs "Perl6 will turn it up for you a little by default--if you write a module or class, it'll automatically default to a stricter mode than it uses for your main program."
15:03 rjbs the "it" is "the strictness knob"
15:03 [Coke] Who said that? (even if it's TT, I don't think that's a true thing)
15:04 rjbs It was.
15:04 rjbs That's fine, things change in 9 years. :)  I was just wondering if it was true, because I didn't know of it being true.
15:04 FROGGS there was some thinking that if you write a class, then some sort of baby talk will be disabled or so...
15:04 FROGGS that statement is not true anymore
15:04 [Coke] looks like it's from earlier: http://interviews.slashdot.org/story/02/09/06/1343222/larry-wall-on-perl-religion-and
15:05 rjbs oops, misread the dates
15:05 [Coke] 2002, so even more suspect. :)
15:05 rjbs YYMMDD.  Honestly!
15:05 rjbs Thanks for the check.
15:05 literal nowadays by default -e is loose and everything else is strict, right?
15:05 literal s/loose/lax/
15:05 rjbs That's my understanding.
15:07 cognominal how usable is the newIO branch? I need to set up pipes. And it seems it could be there because IO::Pipe is missing from master. Well it is an empty placeholder.
15:08 FROGGS literal: correct
15:08 FROGGS that the REPL was lax for almost a year was due to an error...
15:09 FROGGS cognominal: you can use pipe()... and I think newio does not offer much functionality wrt pipes compared to nom
15:10 RabidGravy m: say Regex.new(pattern => "hshss"); # I know this falls into the making shit up and expecting it work category but hey
15:10 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«(signal SEGV)»
15:10 RabidGravy somewhat LTA
15:16 FROGGS aye
15:16 FROGGS please RT it
15:16 * |Tux| was trying to use __END__ => *DATA blocks in p6
15:17 |Tux| so I used =begin DATA and =end DATA and $=data
15:17 |Tux| Pod variables other than $=pod not yet implemented. Sorry.
15:17 |Tux| what is the mode-du-jour to use trailing data?
15:22 brrt left #perl6
15:23 RabidGravy FROGGS, done #125302
15:23 synbot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=125302
15:25 FROGGS RabidGravy++
15:26 smls |Tux|: I guess there isn't a good Perl 6 replacement for __DATA__ and __END__ yet (which is a shame).
15:28 |Tux| I can use «sub MAIN (*@ARGV) {», but is there also a global @ARGV if I do not have a MAIN?
15:28 moritz @*ARGS
15:29 |Tux| top! another example finished
15:31 FROGGS there is $*pod and $*finish btw
15:31 FROGGS err, $=finish
15:32 FROGGS and $=pod
15:32 |Tux| if the error message would have hinted me to $=finish, I would not have asked a single question :)
15:33 |Tux| Pod variables other than $=pod an $=finish not yet implemented. Sorry.
15:33 |Tux| and
15:33 FROGGS std: __END__ blub
15:33 camelia std 28329a7: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Undeclared name:␤        '__END__' used at line 1␤Undeclared routine:␤   'blub' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:00 135m␤»
15:33 FROGGS std: __END__␤blub␤
15:33 camelia std 28329a7: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Undeclared name:␤        '__END__' used at line 1␤Undeclared routine:␤   'blub' used at line 2␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:00 135m␤»
15:33 FROGGS std: __DATA__␤blub␤
15:33 camelia std 28329a7: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Undeclared name:␤        '__DATA__' used at line 1␤Undeclared routine:␤  'blub' used at line 2␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:00 135m␤»
15:35 |Tux| FROGGS, $=finish has not yet been implemented
15:37 FROGGS O.o
15:37 FROGGS m: say 42␤=finish␤say 21␤
15:37 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«42␤»
15:38 moritz m: say =begin END␤say 21␤
15:38 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/7kxFZy1b11␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix = instead␤at /tmp/7kxFZy1b11:1␤------> 3say =7⏏5begin END␤»
15:38 moritz m: =begin END␤say 21␤
15:38 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/PzZTY8L9pK␤'=begin' not terminated by matching '=end END'␤at /tmp/PzZTY8L9pK:3␤------> 3<BOL>7⏏5<EOL>␤    expecting any of:␤        horizontal whitespace␤        whitespace␤»
15:38 FROGGS m: =begin␤say 21␤
15:38 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/PeN9bUGIN2␤=begin must be followed by an identifier; (did you mean "=begin pod"?)␤at /tmp/PeN9bUGIN2:1␤------> 3=begin7⏏5<EOL>␤»
15:38 |Tux| m: say $=finish;␤␤=finish␤DATA
15:38 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/swIlXp765G␤Pod variables other than $=pod not yet implemented. Sorry. ␤at /tmp/swIlXp765G:1␤------> 3say $=finish7⏏5;␤»
15:39 FROGGS m: =flubber␤say 'not here'
15:39 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: ( no output )
15:39 FROGGS so, everything besides =pod and =begin can act like __END__
15:39 moritz erm, no
15:40 |Tux| =finish === __END__
15:40 moritz it's just that if there is no newlline after an abbreviated pod form, stuff after it counts as a continuation of the pod block
15:40 |Tux| and if I read correct, $=finish should eventually hold all the data after =finish
15:40 FROGGS m: say $=pod; =pod foo␤bar␤baz␤␤
15:40 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/cljOUjsyGP␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix = instead␤at /tmp/cljOUjsyGP:1␤------> 3say $=pod; =7⏏5pod foo␤»
15:41 FROGGS m: say $=pod; =foo␤bar␤baz␤␤
15:41 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/hTaqgTkRHs␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix = instead␤at /tmp/hTaqgTkRHs:1␤------> 3say $=pod; =7⏏5foo␤»
15:41 FROGGS m: say $=pod; =begin foo␤bar␤baz␤␤
15:41 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/qHHjFctnfl␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix = instead␤at /tmp/qHHjFctnfl:1␤------> 3say $=pod; =7⏏5begin foo␤»
15:41 |Tux| m: say $=pod;␤␤=finish␤DATA
15:41 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«␤»
15:41 FROGGS m: say $=pod;␤=pod foo␤bar␤baz␤␤
15:41 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«Pod::Block::Named{:name("pod")}<>␤  Pod::Block::Para␤    foo bar baz␤␤»
15:44 FROGGS bbl &
15:46 |Tux| another stupid Q: p5« my @foo = (@bar) x 100; » put 100 copies of @bar in @foo. p6 how?
15:46 |Tux| other than in a for loop
15:46 japhb Anyone happen to know when jnthn will be back?  Is he honeymooning?
15:47 japhb |Tux|: You need xx to get list multiples
15:47 japhb x is for string multiples
15:47 |Tux| thnx. never used it before
15:47 japhb Also, xx thunks, if that matters in your actual code.
15:48 japhb (Because people expected to be able to do [] xx 100 and get 100 unique arrays.)
15:48 moritz japhb: iirc next week
15:48 japhb moritz: Ah, thanks.
15:49 |Tux| top!
15:57 itz Are there any plans for a * release any time soon?
15:59 cognominal FROGGS newio setting does not compile yet. Too bad there are a lot of interesting there. lizmat++
16:00 [Coke] star needs to get its module installation story straight after recent panda changes, IIRC.
16:01 itz yeah there is quite a lot of brokeness
16:01 [Coke] We'd be happy to step you through installing the latest compiler release, though, if you like.
16:01 itz is anyone able to merge https://github.com/tadzik/Bailador/pull/27 ?
16:01 itz I have built the latest
16:02 raydiak o/ g'mornin #perl6
16:03 itz also https://github.com/tadzik/panda/pull/163
16:06 |Tux| tony-o_, Bench is fun:
16:06 |Tux| Timing 50 iterations of combine   1, combine  10, combine 100, parse     1, parse    10, parse   100...
16:06 |Tux| combine   1: -0.1110 wallclock secs @ -450.6049/s (n=50)
16:06 |Tux| (warning: too few iterations for a reliable count)
16:06 tony-o_ |Tux|: there is no lib in p6 yet for me to get CPU seconds
16:06 yoleaux 31 May 2015 02:11Z <timotimo> tony-o_: in general i'm okay with being pm'd by anyone at any time :)
16:06 |Tux| ah
16:07 tony-o_ otherwise, yes, i'd be more than happy to do taht :-)
16:07 liztormato joined #perl6
16:07 |Tux| but -0.1 waalclock?
16:07 tony-o_ i started on a nativecall version but got hung up on the windows side
16:07 tony-o_ what does your code look like?
16:08 |Tux| https://gist.github.com/Tux/5fd68abcc5f362ede112
16:08 liztormato japhb: the way I understand it, is that jnthn will still be mostly offline for today and tomorrow
16:08 rindolf joined #perl6
16:08 |Tux| change 100 to 10
16:09 |Tux| tony-o_, warning: you cannot install Text::CSV with panda. It does install but the installed version will crash
16:10 liztormato About to be airborne again&
16:10 |Tux| that is a difficult bug (RT#124298)
16:10 synbot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=124298
16:10 tony-o_ it can be negative too if your system took a long time to initiate the call, bench tries to keep track of how long it takes to start the benchmark
16:10 tony-o_ it's modeled after the p5 module
16:10 |Tux| that is why I use it :)
16:11 |Tux| rewriting all my examples from perl5 to perl6
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16:16 dalek specs: b413e55 | (Stéphane Payrard)++ | S24-testing.pod:
16:16 dalek specs: replaced deprecated underscored sub names by dashed ones
16:16 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/b413e555d2
16:23 dalek specs: 86bb33f | moritz++ | html/index.html:
16:23 dalek specs: index page: correct some details about the document generation
16:23 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/86bb33ff98
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16:42 rjbs What is the term being used to describe the Christmas 2015-ish release of Perl 6?
16:42 rjbs the first "stable" release?  "official" relelase?
16:44 PerlJam perhaps just "the first release" :)
16:47 dalek perl6-roast-data: 0328035 | coke++ | / (8 files):
16:47 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
16:47 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/032803553a
16:47 [Coke] Our marketing departement will have to get back to you on that. :|
16:48 [Coke] In other news: we have an opening marketing position. :)
16:50 itz please don't use the "M" word :)
16:51 ugexe they prefer the term technology evangelist
16:52 * [Coke] stares at the spelling and grammar issues he's sending today. wtf.
17:09 diana_olhovik_ joined #perl6
17:18 dalek doc: 81b5882 | (Steve Mynott)++ | lib/Language/ (2 files):
17:18 dalek doc: fix 3 minor typos
17:18 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/81b58823bf
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17:20 smls When I do    for pipe("$shell-command").lines -> $line { ... }    does Perl 6 keep the whole lazy list around in RAM while it is iterated, or free values once they've been iterated over?
17:24 * raydiak would hope that potentially-infinite lists don't require potentially infinite RAM
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17:24 Juerd raydiak: They do
17:25 Juerd raydiak: Fortunately, this is not tested beforehand, so you can get away with finite RAM as long as you don't use too much of the list :P
17:25 raydiak hrm...
17:26 smls Also, how come   while pipe(...).get -> $line { ... }   does not work?
17:26 raydiak I guess that makes sense if the list is stored in a variable or something
17:26 smls It prints the first line on infinite loop.
17:27 smls oh, duh
17:28 smls my $pipe = pipe(...); while $pipe.get -> $line { ... }   seems to work.
17:30 cognominal joined #perl6
17:30 smls hrm no, to handle empty lines it needs to be:
17:30 smls while defined(my $line = $pipe.get) { ... }
17:30 * smls hopes the GLR will make the 'for' version efficient
17:33 Guest77420 potentially-infinite lists are still defined by a finite algorithm.  So they don't require potentially infinite RAM.
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17:36 raydiak but the reified part is kept around until the whole list is GC'd, is the problem
17:40 [Coke] m: say():{ "barf" }
17:40 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot find method 'has_compile_time_value'␤»
17:40 [Coke] ^^ that is blocking t/spec/S06-signature/slurpy-blocks.t
17:42 raydiak besides accessing the same element in an infinite list more than once, I guess it'd also be a problem because iterators can take previous elements as input to generate subsequent ones
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17:52 hoelzro if a test is commented out in t/spectest.data, should we put an RT ticket in a comment next to it?
17:54 PerlJam IMHO, if there's and RT ticket that is associated with any test (commented or uncommented), the ticket number should appear in a comment next to it.
17:54 amurf joined #perl6
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17:58 FROGGS good evening #perl6
17:59 raydiak o/ FROGGS
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18:06 [Coke] rant: tests should not be commented out in t/spectest.data
18:06 FROGGS aye
18:06 rba_ joined #perl6
18:07 hoelzro [Coke]: I was thinking about block-leading.t and block-trailing.t
18:07 hoelzro I would like to not be commented out, but I'm writing up a ticket and am wondering where I should put it
18:07 [Coke] all the tests that don't run need to be reviewed, either to add a NYI fudge, or update from really old sixperl, or deleted, or...
18:08 [Coke] If you can sum up the reason why they're failing, open an RT for it, fudge the tests, and then add them to spectest.data
18:08 [Coke] even if you can't sum it up, if you can fudge it, that's fine for now. open a ticket, use that in the fudge message.
18:09 hoelzro [Coke]: just did! https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=125304
18:10 raydiak maybe there should be a statement to that effect in the comments at the top of the file?  perhaps starting with all-caps PLEASE to politely get attention :)
18:10 [Coke] (I would have fudged them, but it was squishy - i fudged some things and then other things would fail
18:10 hoelzro I'll fudge and such later on today
18:10 [Coke] raydiak: in t/spectest.data ?
18:11 raydiak [Coke]: yes
18:12 [Coke] ok. working on it.
18:17 Peter_R joined #perl6
18:18 [Coke] https://gist.github.com/coke/faee9144606a35614fd9
18:21 yqt joined #perl6
18:21 masak for those of you who are interested in a good rationale for -0e0 in IEEE 754: http://people.freebsd.org/~das/kahan86branch.pdf
18:24 masak m: say (-0e0).Str
18:24 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«-0␤»
18:24 masak hm, how does .Str know that it's a negative zero?
18:24 geekosaur I thought the justification had to do with limits
18:24 * [Coke] will push that gist shortly (and remove any commented out file names) shortly, unless someone complains
18:24 masak geekosaur: it does. and the complex plane.
18:24 geekosaur ah, yes, that too
18:25 geekosaur and related to atan2()
18:27 masak oh? if you had said tan() I would have thought it less surprising... :)
18:27 masak the inverse tangent function is a very mellow function...
18:28 geekosaur conceptually related. atan2 exists because you need signs of both arguments to determine quadrant
18:29 masak ah, yes.
18:29 bin_005 joined #perl6
18:29 masak though isn't atan2(x, y) == atan2(-x, -y) always?
18:30 masak oh, not in the cases where either x or y is 0, right...
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18:31 geekosaur "For example, the anticlockwise angle from the x-axis to the vector (1, 1), calculated in the usual way as arctan(1/1), is π/4 (radians), or 45°. However, the angle between the x-axis and the vector (−1, −1) appears, by the same method, to be arctan(−1/−1), again π/4, even though the answer clearly should be −3π/4, or −135°"
18:32 masak right.
18:32 masak it's the ordinary atan() function that has trouble distinguishing.
18:32 masak atan2() has enough information to reconstruct the exact angle.
18:33 * masak discovered the corner cases of atan() the hard way, decades ago, and was glad to learn of atan2() much later
18:41 dalek rakudo/nom: 8cc2741 | coke++ | t/spectest.data:
18:41 dalek rakudo/nom: Mention tools/update-passing-test-data.pl
18:41 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8cc2741533
18:41 dalek rakudo/nom: 73480ff | coke++ | t/spectest.data:
18:41 dalek rakudo/nom: Remove commented out test file names
18:41 dalek rakudo/nom:
18:41 dalek rakudo/nom: (can generate this list using the tool mentioned in the file)
18:41 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/73480ff464
18:41 [Coke] pushed.
18:41 * jercos .oO( a gimbal is a terrible thing to lock )
18:44 brrt joined #perl6
18:45 masak heh.
18:45 masak the other kids I knew wanted nothing to do with trig. me, I wanted to rotate stuff on my screen, and so I was quite interested.
18:46 timotimo :)
18:49 bin_005_u joined #perl6
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18:49 * FROGGS sighs
18:50 timotimo moarvm now honors the int cache when returning ints from functions
18:51 timotimo as in: native ints that have to be boxed on the caller side
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19:25 FROGGS TimToady: are you there? I want to add a pragma that I think is Perl 6.0.0-worth... 'use restricted'
19:30 TimToady well, long run such restrictions can only guaranteed at the vm level, but I suppose the language level might be able to give better error messages in some cases
19:31 TimToady I am a bit skeptical that restrictions can be strictly enforced at a language level though
19:31 FROGGS TimToady: I implemented it at the VM level, though, we want to to it on somehow
19:31 TimToady certainly worth playing with anyway
19:32 FROGGS so I am using a dynamic variable, and check for its existence (not its value)
19:32 FROGGS so you cannot turn it off
19:32 FROGGS so I get your +1 to add a pragma 'restricted' in rakudo?
19:33 FROGGS then we can eval command line args for example and be safe
19:33 TimToady we can at least try, and the ask all the script kiddies to try to break it :)
19:33 TimToady *then
19:39 FROGGS k
19:39 FROGGS :o)
19:40 TimToady m: my $list = do { my $*restricted = True; gather for 1..* { take $*restricted // "oops" }}; say $list[0]
19:40 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«oops␤»
19:40 timotimo that was quick :)
19:41 rjbs shout out to Perl 6 in: http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5.porters/2015/06/msg228300.html ????
19:42 PerlJam rjbs++
19:42 FROGGS rjbs++
19:43 timotimo rjbs++
19:44 FROGGS rjbs: thank you
19:44 telex joined #perl6
19:44 [Coke] rjbs++
19:44 rjbs I actually had been unsure for a long time if I wanted to put that in there, but it seemed the sisterly thing to do. :)
19:45 bin_005_u joined #perl6
19:47 timotimo masak: do we perhaps want to put an "exit(0)" into the send-more-money-subs benchmark so that it's not quite as terribly long?
19:47 RabidGravy I've forgotten how to interpolated a variable into a regex such that it gets parsed as part of the regular expression rather than a literal string
19:47 timotimo that's <$foobar>
19:48 RabidGravy timotimo++ # knew it was something simple, cheers
19:48 timotimo YW
19:48 PerlJam rjbs: I hope whoever does the Christmas release of Perl 6 reciprocates by mentioning the recent release of 5.22   (I say this out loud so that if I'm not around, someone else thinks to include it  :)
19:49 rjbs Funny, I'd always assumed TimToady would do it!  Now I'm going to wait in even greater anticipation.
19:50 rjbs It would be his first documented Perl release since 1996, 5.002.
19:52 FROGGS hmmmm, one release every two decades... that's okay
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19:57 RabidGravy m: try { my $f = '<*'; rx/<$f>/; CATCH { say $_.WHAT }}; # why this exception?
19:57 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«(X::Method::NotFound)␤Method 'match' not found for invocant of class 'Any'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/7FTV2wOYra:1␤␤»
19:57 masak timotimo: (a) IME, it actually finds the solution near the end. (b) if you did exit(0), how would you know you've found all solutions?
19:59 masak timotimo: but addressing the bigger picture -- yes, if the benchmark script is taking too long, then we should probably do something about that.
19:59 masak I added them because I was asked. and they take a long time because Rakudo is too slow. :)
20:00 timotimo masak: does it try out the possibilities in the same order, btw?
20:00 timotimo it uses sets ...
20:01 masak m: say (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) (-) (2, 4)
20:01 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«set(5, 3, 1)␤»
20:02 masak maybe not.
20:02 masak but the total running time should be unaffected.
20:03 masak I guess for the purposes of benchmarking one *could* hardcode smaller lists of numbers to iterate through (still containing the correct solution).
20:03 tony-o_ is that splicing the list ?
20:03 masak would make the problem faster to run but a bit more artificial.
20:03 masak tony-o_: it's set difference.
20:03 tony-o_ oh nvm - i see
20:04 masak m: say (1, 3, 4, 5) (|) (2, 4, 6)
20:04 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«set(5, 4, 3, 6, 1, 2)␤»
20:04 masak m: say (1, 3, 4, 5) (+) (2, 4, 6)
20:04 camelia rakudo-moar c2a57e: OUTPUT«bag(5, 4(2), 3, 1, 6, 2)␤»
20:04 FROGGS .tell raydiak if you'd use MoarVM/restricted, you could test EVALing code in safe mode by declaring a variable called '$*RESTICTED'
20:04 yoleaux FROGGS: I'll pass your message to raydiak.
20:08 FROGGS .tell raydiak like in: my $pairs = { my $*RESTICTED; EVAL '(:auth<bar>:ver(/\d+/))' }(); say v42 ~~ $pairs[1]<ver>
20:08 yoleaux FROGGS: I'll pass your message to raydiak.
20:09 FROGGS .tell raydiak I'm going to make that available as 'use restricted', and maybe even as EVAL(Str, :$restricted)...
20:09 yoleaux FROGGS: I'll pass your message to raydiak.
20:10 FROGGS ohh, it is called RESTRICTED, not RESTICTED
20:11 jdv79 is there something like Devel::Cover yet?  just curious if there's some way we could easily find things that are not well excercised by tests.
20:11 FROGGS not that I know
20:13 raydiak FROGGS: awesome thanks :)  I'll try it out today
20:13 yoleaux 20:04Z <FROGGS> raydiak: if you'd use MoarVM/restricted, you could test EVALing code in safe mode by declaring a variable called '$*RESTICTED'
20:13 yoleaux 20:08Z <FROGGS> raydiak: like in: my $pairs = { my $*RESTICTED; EVAL '(:auth<bar>:ver(/\d+/))' }(); say v42 ~~ $pairs[1]<ver>
20:13 yoleaux 20:09Z <FROGGS> raydiak: I'm going to make that available as 'use restricted', and maybe even as EVAL(Str, :$restricted)...
20:15 FROGGS raydiak: for some reason the parens in the evaled string are needed btw
20:17 raydiak heh good to know
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20:39 RabidGravy so if you interpolate a regex with /<$f>/ you don't get the error until you try to match against it?
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20:59 jdv79 so i pulled and made install and i still get http://paste.scsys.co.uk/485644
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21:39 masak 'night, #perl6
21:39 raydiak good night masak
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23:21 timotimo weekly posted
23:21 timotimo a bit less spectacular than i'm used to :P
23:24 tadzik Yay, reading :) tiko
23:24 tadzik Er, timotimo++
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