Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2015-07-20

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:00 ugexe parallel precompilation of provides funs... time diff: 0m43.068s -> 0m25.204s
00:13 brrt joined #perl6
00:19 ugexe 3m51.945s -> 2m31.200s applying to both build + test
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00:34 timotimo not bad
00:47 [Coke] I believe there is an outstanding grant that pmichaud is working on.
00:49 [Coke] I'm not sure http://news.perlfoundation.org/2010/0​7/hague-grant-application-lists.html was closed out.
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01:46 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | http://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, std:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
01:56 dalek rakudo-star-daily: a451650 | coke++ | log/ (9 files):
01:56 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
01:56 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/a451650bf1
01:56 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 568411e | coke++ | log/ (8 files):
01:56 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
01:56 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/568411e9e0
01:56 dalek perl6-roast-data: d7ac38a | coke++ | / (9 files):
01:56 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
01:56 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/d7ac38a2f9
01:56 dalek perl6-roast-data: be7bdea | coke++ | / (9 files):
01:56 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
01:56 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/be7bdea7b4
02:01 timotimo http://doc.perl6.org/routine/pack has a broken link: "unpack"
02:01 timotimo should lead to /routine/unpack rather than /method unpack
02:02 timotimo ah, flussence already opened an issue for that a few hours ago
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04:09 szabgab hi
04:09 szabgab http://perl6maven.com/web-development-using-perl6
04:10 szabgab If you know about any other site that runs on Perl 6, (or is generated by Perl 6 code), please let me know.
04:16 szabgab a pull request to this page might work best: https://github.com/szabgab/perl6maven.com/blo​b/main/pages/web-development-using-perl6.txt
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06:24 masak morning, #perl6
06:24 lizmat masak o/
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06:37 lizmat just wondering: should "use fatal" not fatalize worries as well ?
06:39 masak is a worry a kind of warning?
06:40 nwc10 use paranoia? :-)
06:43 lizmat m: my $a; say \$a   # an uncatchable worry
06:43 camelia rakudo-moar 4b5e19: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤    To pass an array, hash or sub to a function in Perl 6, just pass it as is.␤    For other uses of Perl 5's ref operator consider binding with ::= instead.␤    Parenthesize as \(...) if you intended a capture of a single var…»
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06:46 lizmat m: no worries; my $a; say \$a
06:46 camelia rakudo-moar 4b5e19: OUTPUT«\(Any)␤»
06:52 lizmat maybe "use fatal" should turn a worry into a sorry
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07:01 dalek rakudo/nom: fec1fa9 | lizmat++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp:
07:01 dalek rakudo/nom: Turn worries into sorries when use fatal
07:01 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fec1fa9b5b
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07:18 * masak .oO( turn furries into slurries )
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07:22 lizmat .o( ...  gathered together in a cave and grooving with a pict )
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07:28 masak m: say 3 ^^ 4
07:28 camelia rakudo-moar fec1fa: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
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07:29 masak does anyone actually recall using ^^ in their Perl 6 code?
07:29 dalek rakudo/nom: 030e675 | lizmat++ | src/core/CallFrame.pm:
07:29 dalek rakudo/nom: Give CallFrame a gist method
07:29 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/030e675d39
07:30 dalek roast: 24f0eaf | lizmat++ | S06-advanced/callframe.t:
07:30 dalek roast: Adapt tests to new CallFrame.gist method
07:30 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/24f0eafddb
07:30 lizmat masak: can't say that I do
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08:06 dalek rakudo/nom: ef4de62 | lizmat++ | src/core/Backtrace.pm:
08:06 dalek rakudo/nom: Don't show <unit-outer> entries
08:06 dalek rakudo/nom:
08:06 dalek rakudo/nom: This was stopped in "normal" backtraces already, but not if coming from
08:06 dalek rakudo/nom: an EVAL.
08:06 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ef4de62817
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08:15 lizmat good night, #perl6!
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08:15 nwc10 sleep well.
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08:18 jnthn Hm, "use fatal" turning compile-time warnings into compile-time errors is a curious extra feature to its existing role of turning runtime failures into runtime exceptions...
08:19 jnthn I'm not sure I'd expect code that worried to suddenly fail to compile 'cus I moved it into a try block.
08:19 jnthn So +1 to the feature (compiler warnings as errors), but I think it needs to be given another name.
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08:24 moritz "use tight;"
08:25 ShimmerFairy use Werror  :P
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08:42 mathw use dont-ignore-the-warnings-dammit
08:46 llfourn m: %?LANG.say
08:47 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/bcWis45qGX␤Variable '%?LANG' is not declared␤at /tmp/bcWis45qGX:1␤------> 3<BOL>7⏏5%?LANG.say␤»
08:47 llfourn I think that used to work...
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08:56 andreoss m: for @x -> @y [3] { @y.perl.say }
08:56 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/hnFb7BRUIf␤Variable '@x' is not declared␤at /tmp/hnFb7BRUIf:1␤------> 3for 7⏏5@x -> @y [3] { @y.perl.say }␤»
08:56 andreoss m:  my @x = 1...10; for @x -> @y [3] { @y.perl.say }
08:56 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding @y; expected 'Positional' but got 'Int'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/XVTUDZNQFT:1␤␤»
08:57 jnthn m:  my @x = [3],[3],[2]; for @x -> @y [3] { @y.perl.say }
08:57 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«[3]<>␤[3]<>␤Constraint type check failed for parameter '<anon>' in sub-signature of parameter @y␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/P4DvFqAFGS:1␤␤»
08:57 jnthn [...] is a positional unpack
09:03 andreoss m: my @x = ^10;for @x -> @y { @y.perl.say }
09:03 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding @y; expected 'Positional' but got 'Int'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/xOGd0ON5YA:1␤␤»
09:05 FROGGS m: my @x = ^10;for @x -> *@y { @y.perl.say }
09:05 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«[0]<>␤[1]<>␤[2]<>␤[3]<>␤[4]​<>␤[5]<>␤[6]<>␤[7]<>␤[8]<>␤[9]<>␤»
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09:07 andreoss can i loop through elements taking N of them without .rotor()?
09:08 andreoss m: for ^12 -> $,$,$ { $_.perl.say }
09:08 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«Any␤Any␤Any␤Any␤»
09:08 arnsholt That's for @x -> $a, $b, $c {} IIRC
09:09 jnthn Yeah, that's how to do it. Provided you know how many you'll have
09:09 jnthn If not, then rotor
09:09 andreoss i want them in array
09:09 jnthn Then rotor
09:10 andreoss @x -> @y[3] gives NYI error? So it will there in the future?
09:11 jnthn Yes, but it will expect you to be iterating over arrays that are already 3 in length
09:11 jnthn It won't do anything so magical as give you 3 at a time.
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09:14 llfourn m:  my @x = ^9; while my $y = @x.munch(3) { say $y }
09:14 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8␤»
09:15 llfourn I think that should work but doesn't
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09:15 llfourn m: my @x = ^9;say @x;  while my $y = @x.munch(3) { say $y }
09:15 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8␤0 1 2␤3 4 5␤6 7 8␤»
09:16 llfourn but works if I put a say @x before it :S
09:16 jnthn I'm not sure whether munch was intended to be public API, or whether it'll survive GLR, fwiw.
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09:22 andreoss i want them in array
09:22 andreoss sorry
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09:29 andreoss m: ([X]^3,^3,^3).perl
09:29 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«Method 'gimme' not found for invocant of class 'Any'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/rO3R98aEbj:1␤␤»
09:30 llfourn would be nice to have something like: http://php.net/manual/en/function.array-chunk.php
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09:32 andreoss doesn't it do the same .rotor() does?
09:37 andreoss m: my \N = 2; ([X] ^N,^N,^N).map(-> $x,$y,$z { ^N X»+» [+] ($y,$z,$x) »*» N «**« ((^N X»+» 1))}).rotor(N*N).map(*.fmt: "%2d").join("\n").say;
09:37 andreoss
09:37 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT« 0  1  4  5␤ 2  3  6  7␤ 2  3  6  7␤ 4  5  8  9␤»
09:41 ShimmerFairy m: say ([X] ^3,^3,^3).perl
09:41 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«(0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 2, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1, 1, 0, 1, 2, 0, 2, 0, 0, 2, 1, 0, 2, 2, 1, 0, 0, 1, 0, 1, 1, 0, 2, 1, 1, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 2, 0, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 0, 0, 2, 0, 1, 2, 0, 2, 2, 1, 0, 2, 1, 1, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 0, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2)␤»
09:42 ShimmerFairy ^ forgot the space between the [X] and the first item in the list
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10:13 andreoss m: say [X] ^2 xx 3
10:13 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 1 0 1 0 1␤»
10:14 andreoss m: say [X] ^2, ^2, ^2
10:14 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 1␤»
10:15 * flussence notices the pod files p6doc installs serve a similar purpose to C header files, but lack that semantic linkage because there's no way in standalone Pod to set .WHY
10:15 andreoss m: say (^2 xx 3).reduce: ->$a, $b {$a X $b}
10:15 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 1 0 1 0 1␤»
10:16 andreoss m: ($(^2) xx 3).reduce: -> @a, @b {@a X @b}
10:16 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: ( no output )
10:16 andreoss m: say ($(^2) xx 3).reduce: -> @a, @b {@a X @b}
10:16 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 1␤»
10:20 andreoss can't get if it's flattening too much or too little
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10:53 andreoss m: say (1,2; 1,2).cross
10:53 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«Method 'cross' not found for invocant of class 'LoL'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/_yv1kIOzmA:1␤␤»
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11:00 andreoss what's .cross now?
11:00 * jnthn wasn't aware there was a method form of the meta-op...
11:02 FROGGS m: say (1,2; 1,2).permutations # perhaps this?
11:02 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2␤»
11:02 jnthn Oh, maybe :)
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11:05 andreoss m: (1,2 ; 3,4).permutations.perl.say
11:05 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«(($(1, 2), $(3, 4)), ($(3, 4), $(1, 2)))␤»
11:05 andreoss m: (1,2 X 3,4).perl.say
11:05 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«((1, 3), (1, 4), (2, 3), (2, 4))␤»
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11:20 andreoss m: my \N = 2; my \D = 3; ([X] ^N,^N,^N).rotor(D).map({^N X+[+] .rotate(1) »*» N «**« (^D X+1)}).rotor(N*N).map(*.fmt: "%{N}d").join("\n").say;
11:20 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT« 0  1  4  5␤ 2  3  6  7␤ 8  9 12 13␤10 11 14 15␤»
11:20 andreoss no futher golfing
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12:58 andreoss m: my $x = (1..10).join; $x ~~ tr/0..9/9..0/;
12:58 andreoss should it hang?
12:58 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
13:00 timotimo huh, does it fail to move forward?
13:02 moritz andreoss: it shouldn't hang
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13:05 andreoss m: $x.trans: /0..9/ => /₀..₉/
13:05 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter ₀ (must be quoted to match literally)␤at /tmp/_0dfpxTVZi:1␤------> 3$x.trans: /0..9/ => /7⏏5₀..₉/␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter . (must be quoted to match literally)␤at /tmp/_0dfp…»
13:05 FROGGS m: $x.trans: /0..9/ => '₀'..'₉'
13:05 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/PXbo0NeuOc␤Variable '$x' is not declared␤at /tmp/PXbo0NeuOc:1␤------> 3<BOL>7⏏5$x.trans: /0..9/ => '₀'..'₉'␤»
13:06 FROGGS m: my $x = (1..10).join; say $x.trans: /0..9/ => '₀'..'₉'
13:06 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«12345678910␤»
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13:06 FROGGS m: my $x = (1..10).join; say $x.trans: 0..9 => '₀'..'₉'
13:06 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«₁₂₃₄₅₆₇₈₉₁₀␤»
13:06 timotimo this is not about trying to build a range from 9 to 0 and it being an infinite list because going from 9 you never reach 0?
13:07 FROGGS m: my $x = (1..10).join; $x ~~ tr/0..9/9876543210/;
13:07 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: ( no output )
13:07 FROGGS m: my $x = (1..10).join; say $x ~~ tr/0..9/9876543210/;
13:07 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«StrDistance.new(before => "12345678910", after => "87654321089")␤»
13:08 FROGGS timotimo: I think you are right
13:08 andreoss why ₀ should by backslashed?
13:08 andreoss is it a meta-character of some sort?
13:08 andreoss *be
13:09 timotimo well, we just rely on one of the unicode properties to decide for us
13:09 jnthn .u ₀
13:09 yoleaux U+2080 SUBSCRIPT ZERO [No] (₀)
13:09 jnthn m: say '₀' ~~ /\w/
13:09 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
13:09 jnthn That's why
13:12 andreoss m: say (1..10).join.trans('0..9' => '⁰..⁹')
13:12 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«ⁱ⁲⁳⁴⁵⁶⁷⁸⁹ⁱ⁰␤»
13:13 andreoss i?
13:13 jnthn m: say uniname(0x2080)
13:13 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«SUBSCRIPT ZERO␤»
13:13 jnthn m: say uniname(0x2081)
13:13 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«SUBSCRIPT ONE␤»
13:14 FROGGS m: say '2'.trans('0..9' => '⁰..⁹')
13:14 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«⁲␤»
13:14 FROGGS m: say uniname('2'.trans('0..9' => '⁰..⁹'))
13:14 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«<reserved>␤»
13:14 jnthn m: say ord(chr(0x2080).succ)
13:14 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«8321␤»
13:14 FROGGS m: say ohh
13:14 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/qGXS8sbUX0␤Undeclared routine:␤    ohh used at line 1␤␤»
13:14 jnthn m: say ord(chr(0x2080).succ).base(16)
13:14 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«2081␤»
13:14 jnthn Hm
13:14 FROGGS m: say ord(chr(0x2081).succ).base(16)
13:14 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«2082␤»
13:15 FROGGS m: say uniname(0x2082)
13:15 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«SUBSCRIPT TWO␤»
13:15 jnthn Beats me
13:15 FROGGS m: say ord('2'.trans('0..9' => '⁰..⁹'))
13:15 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«8306␤»
13:15 FROGGS m: say ord('2'.trans('0..9' => '⁰..⁹')).base(16)
13:15 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«2072␤»
13:16 FROGGS m: say (1..10).join.trans('0..9' => '⁰°°⁹') # :P
13:16 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«°°⁹⁰°°⁹⁰°°⁰␤»
13:17 ShimmerFairy m: say "{$_.base(16)} '$_' ({$_.uniname})" for 0x2070..0x2074
13:17 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«2070 '8304' (SUPERSCRIPT ZERO)␤2071 '8305' (SUPERSCRIPT LATIN SMALL LETTER I)␤2072 '8306' (<reserved>)␤2073 '8307' (<reserved>)␤2074 '8308' (SUPERSCRIPT FOUR)␤»
13:17 ShimmerFairy jnthn: looks like superscript 1 and 2 are elsewhere
13:17 jnthn oh, what...
13:17 ShimmerFairy m: say "¹".ord.base(16); say "²".ord.base(16)
13:17 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«B9␤B2␤»
13:17 ShimmerFairy ^ In the land of extended ASCII, apparently.
13:18 FROGGS and printing on my keyboard...
13:18 jnthn ewww-nicode...
13:18 * [Coke] celebrates the return of his main work laptop with a rakudo build.
13:19 timotimo yay
13:26 llfourn how to I export a sub via EXPORT rather than is export. When I return { exported_sub => sub { ... } } from EXPORT I get a symbol in the importer but to call it I have to do exported_sub.()
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13:33 jnthn return { '&exported_sub' => sub { ... } }
13:34 jnthn sub foo() { } actually installs &foo in the symbol table
13:34 timotimo well, in the symbol table of the export sub, right?
13:36 jnthn Generally
13:36 llfourn jnthn: Works! thanks
13:36 jnthn We name mangle it for you on sub declarations and in "is export", but when you build your own export hash you have to take care of it yourself.
13:38 llfourn makes sense. I tried &exported_sub => sub { ... } w/o quotes but obv that didn't make sense
13:40 jnthn Indeed :)
13:40 llfourn I can't find much docs about sub EXPORT {}
13:42 moritz probably because there isn't much documentation for it :(
13:42 llfourn there is a short mention: http://design.perl6.org/S11.html
13:42 llfourn ill make a pull req for https://github.com/perl6/doc!
13:43 PerlJam llfourn++
13:44 jnthn llfourn++
13:45 jnthn That's the most helpful response to missing docs :)
13:46 moritz llfourn: if you tell me your github username, I can give you access directly
13:46 llfourn LLFourn :)
13:46 brrt joined #perl6
13:46 moritz llfourn: invitation sent. Have the appropriate amount of fun!
13:47 llfourn moritz: Thanks will do
13:47 llfourn actually it is documented in 5to6: http://doc.perl6.org/language/5to6#Impo​rting_specific_functions_from_a_module
13:47 llfourn but I never found that unitl cloining and grepping
13:47 moritz definitively shouldn't be the only place
13:48 jnthn If you want some small import examples, feel free to nab some from http://jnthn.net/papers/201​5-fosdem-static-dynamic.pdf
13:48 timotimo there's also the ADT module that also uses EXPORT
13:49 jnthn That may not be a small example ;)
13:49 timotimo hm
13:56 b2gills m: say [X] (^2 xx 3) # does `xx` and `[ Operator ]  List` have the right precedence order
13:56 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 1 0 1 0 1␤»
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13:57 b2gills m: say [X] ^2 xx 3
13:57 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 1 0 1 0 1␤»
13:57 b2gills m: say [X] ^2, ^2, ^2
13:57 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 1␤»
13:59 timotimo [X] has a very loose precedence
13:59 timotimo "list prefix"
13:59 timotimo but it doesn't seem like it flattens there the way you expect
13:59 timotimo m: say [X] flat ^2 xx 3
13:59 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 1 0 1 0 1␤»
13:59 timotimo m: say [X] |(^2 xx 3)
13:59 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 1 0 1 0 1␤»
13:59 timotimo huh.
14:00 timotimo m: say [X] (^2 xx 3).list
14:00 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 1 0 1 0 1␤»
14:00 timotimo m: say [X] (^2 xx 3).tree
14:00 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 1 0 1 0 1␤»
14:00 timotimo m: say [X] (^2 xx 3).lol
14:00 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«ListIter.new␤»
14:00 timotimo >_>
14:01 jnthn m: say [X](^2 xx 3)
14:01 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 1 0 1 0 1␤»
14:02 jnthn m: say [X](|(^2 xx 3))
14:02 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 1 0 1 0 1␤»
14:02 jnthn m: say [X] |(^2 xx 3)
14:02 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 1 0 1 0 1␤»
14:02 jnthn Hm :)
14:02 b2gills m: say [X] (^2 xx 3).rotor: 2
14:02 jnthn No idea :P
14:02 timotimo GLR can't come soon enough ;)
14:02 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 1 0 1 0 1␤»
14:03 jnthn I'm not sure if GLR will make much difference there :)
14:03 timotimo it'll at least give us the opportunity to look closer at this issue right here
14:03 masak nonsense. GLR will fix everything.
14:04 masak everything! :P
14:04 timotimo can GLR help me occupy my brain?
14:04 b2gills .oO( The GLR seems like a magical being that will come and fix all the problems ever at this point )
14:04 timotimo i finished with my module 'cause it couldn't help me with my mind
14:05 rindolf joined #perl6
14:06 masak a mind is a terrible thing to GLR
14:06 timotimo it's a horrible night to have a GLR
14:15 brrt the GLR will fix the JIT
14:15 timotimo well ...
14:15 masak GLR fixed the JIT... in my heart.
14:15 timotimo with the GLR in place, we'll have fewer crap involved in list iteration
14:16 skids joined #perl6
14:16 timotimo and that'll make the JIT happier, of course ... more possibilities to inline, less pressure on the code cache for example
14:17 btyler_ speaking of which, is there anything that can be done to start making GLR happen? bunches of mechanical refactoring that lack tuits? it seems concerning that the dialogue around GLR is still "someday..." but September isn't so far off at all
14:18 timotimo well, there's the glr-refactored synopsis, there's at least one branch that larry has been working in for flattening changes
14:24 brrt ****** blogger
14:25 brrt one misplaced ctrl-z and *EVERYTHING I TYPED IS GONE*
14:25 timotimo argh!
14:25 jnthn :/
14:25 brrt :-(
14:26 brrt oh, saved by the preview page
14:26 brrt *pfew*
14:27 masak blogger does suck, though.
14:27 masak I'm amazed that it's possible to fail that much with blog software.
14:28 brrt aye
14:28 brrt the thing about that is, though
14:28 brrt i really, really, really don't want to set up and manage a blog
14:28 brrt or do web development in general
14:29 khw joined #perl6
14:29 timotimo yeah
14:29 amurf joined #perl6
14:29 timotimo as much shit as i'm giving wordpress, at least their editor regularly saves backups into your local browser session storage
14:30 * DrForr scribbles notes :)
14:30 timotimo though of course if you manage to overwrite your stuff and your browser somehow loses ctrl-z and whatever the redo button is ... :|
14:31 brrt cynic me notes that wordpress has spawned a reasonably-sized industry of 'web design' companies
14:31 timotimo "wordpress template development", eh?
14:32 brrt install wordpress: $500. install a wordpress template: $500. Paste in a logo with photoshop: $1000. Done
14:32 timotimo wow
14:32 brrt don't believe me?
14:32 timotimo i want to make that much money with so little work
14:33 brrt just need to find big enough fools
14:33 timotimo mhm
14:33 brrt of course, if you can find really big fools (i.e. media companies) then it becomes still more interesting
14:33 masak there is a positive side to that, though.
14:33 brrt keeps them off the streets? :-)
14:33 masak it's that companies who have no interest in web dev can hire someone with wordpress skills.
14:34 timotimo right
14:34 masak and both will be relatively happy.
14:34 timotimo do these people actually have wordpress skills? i.e. could they handle complicated problems if they arise?
14:34 brrt when do complicated problems arise with wordpress?
14:34 timotimo i have no clue
14:35 brrt do lorry drivers have skills with engines?
14:35 masak customizing a plugin could happen, I guess.
14:35 brrt not perhaps the best example; but in a very distant past, they probably did
14:35 masak might be everything from slightly nontrivial to complicated.
14:35 timotimo mhm
14:35 DrForr And are there problems that they wouldn't resolve by simply deactivating the plugin? :)
14:36 brrt installing another plugin :-P
14:36 PerlJam DrForr: But then they'd completely lose their whiz-bang feature!
14:36 ][Sno][ joined #perl6
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14:36 DrForr Or just look for another plugin that does the same thing but under a different name?
14:37 PerlJam And that's what a "wordpress expert" gets paid to do  :)
14:37 brrt on the other hand, it's all too easy to talk about the behavior of hypothetical people, including wordpress experts
14:37 timotimo mhm
14:37 timotimo it kind of seems to me that The Market is very unfair :S
14:38 * brrt is kind of surprised by timotimo's surprise
14:38 timotimo not really a surprise
14:38 brrt didn't you know?
14:38 timotimo just a reminder
14:38 brrt :-P
14:38 PerlJam It's only unfair to an outside observer.  Internally, it's still very fair.
14:39 mephinet joined #perl6
14:39 JimmyZ_ JIT is hard, let's install wordpress.
14:39 integral_ joined #perl6
14:39 integral_ joined #perl6
14:39 brrt really? what precisely is fair about 'the market'
14:39 itz joined #perl6
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14:39 brrt JimmyZ_: halfway decent JIT is hard :-P
14:39 Quom joined #perl6
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14:40 brrt asking from a curiosity standpoint, not having a political axe to grind
14:40 brrt (might seem that way)
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14:40 mst___ joined #perl6
14:40 tadzik I don't know what's unfair about it
14:40 dylanwh_ joined #perl6
14:40 tadzik from a pure, utopian-capitalistic point of view
14:40 PerlJam brrt: "I need an awesome website!"  "I can get you one for $3000"  "Deal!"  <-- both parties attain happiness.  That's fair.  It doesn't matter that the guy bought a wordpress template that you could setup in 20 minutes.
14:40 eviltwin_b joined #perl6
14:41 tadzik his knowledge just earned him $3k
14:41 masak agreed.
14:42 brrt hmm.. i get that point, but i'm not ready that concede that just because people are happy that the transaction was fair
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14:42 tadzik you could say that the wordpress person is exploiting the other person's lack of knowledge
14:42 tadzik but that's what happens with literally every knowledge requiring proffesion in the world
14:42 masak was gonna say
14:42 llfourn I've worked on wordpress. getting the basic thing working is easy. But if you can set up a 1) secure, 2) maintainable 3) modifiable wordpress website you deserve all the money in the world
14:43 tadzik "doctor, is my condition dangerous?" "No. Now pay my $10k"
14:43 MilkmanDan joined #perl6
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14:43 masak tadzik: man, that doctor is fast.
14:43 PerlJam llfourn: modifiable is easy!  ;)
14:43 brrt hah, secure
14:43 tadzik masak: he studied 10 years to be more efficient than a wordpress person :P
14:44 tadzik there has to be *some* benefit...
14:44 * brrt wonders if he can think of an example in which both parties attain happiness and it'd still be unfair, and preferably without involving a injured third party
14:44 mst___ joined #perl6
14:44 * masak .oO( for too long these wordpress people have taunted me and my profession. I must learn to make lightning-fast diagnoses and charge $10k )
14:45 clkao joined #perl6
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14:45 dg joined #perl6
14:46 brrt lol
14:46 PerlJam brrt: The doctor example might be good for an unfair transaction, but I doubt you can get it where both parties are unhappy unless there's a lawsuit involved.
14:46 brrt one party may be unhappy
14:47 brrt that's bad enough...
14:49 llfourn joined #perl6
14:49 PerlJam The problem with doctor-transactions are that we expect to pay for their medical knowledge, but they may not have any specific knowledge about *our particular ailment*  Even if they are "experts"
14:49 PerlJam s/are/is/
14:55 hoelzro o/ #perl6
14:55 timotimo o/ hoelzro
14:55 brrt \o hoelzro
15:17 tadzik PerlJam: that's same with IT people though, isn't it :)
15:20 FROGGS joined #perl6
15:21 PerlJam tadzik: indeed.  It's an analogy I often use to explain to people why I can't solve every computer-related problem.  "Brain surgeons may not make the best foot doctors"  :)
15:25 nys joined #perl6
15:28 tadzik I often heard it as a construction analogy, like "I'm an architect, don't ask me to lay floors" :)
15:28 masak that stance is very damaging in software, I'd say.
15:28 masak the best software architects I know are not afraid to wade into code.
15:29 tadzik yeah, but they may not necesserily know how to configure something in photoshop
15:29 tadzik I often hear "but you write programs, how come you can't fix other peoples' programs"
15:31 PerlJam "I can!  I just need access to the source, the ability to modify it, an environment whereby I can compile it (including any 3rd party libs), and some time to learn how everything works"
15:31 PerlJam :)
15:31 tadzik "I could, if they shared them like I do mine" :)
15:36 masak sounds like a stance partway towards RMS's.
15:39 El_Che it been a good day combining perl6, ruby and puppet code. Configuration management makes live interesting, not simple :)
15:39 El_Che perl 5 I mean :(
15:41 tadzik reminds me Coulton's "Christmas is interesting"
15:42 tadzik "Christmas is interesting, like a stick in your eye. So freaking interesting that it might make you cry"
15:42 PerlJam Is there a good way to mark a ticket in RT as being GLR-related?
15:42 tadzik that's my puppet experience at least ;P
15:44 [Coke] PerlJam: for now, add [GLR] to the subject.
15:44 [Coke] perl5 seems to like meta tickets, but we seem to do better with faux tags in the subject.
15:46 [Coke] have a test failure in make test on rakudo-jvm
15:47 [Coke] https://gist.github.com/coke/f22d30839b7f3d66a97e
15:50 tinyblak joined #perl6
15:54 [Coke] pretty sure I've reported this before, getting a failure on spectest for moarvm on osx:
15:54 [Coke] Unable to execute 'PERL6_BINARY=/Users/williamc​oleda/sandbox/rakudo/perl6-m sh t/spec/S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.sh 7 1024' in block <unit> at t/spec/S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.t:170
15:56 [Coke] getting -bash: t/spec/S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.pl: Permission denied
16:07 yqt joined #perl6
16:14 PerlJam m: for ^0 { FIRST say 'first'; LAST say 'last'; LEAVE say 'leave'; }
16:14 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: ( no output )
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16:22 hoelzro why is it that Socket.send takes a Str, but Socket.write takes a Blob?
16:22 hoelzro s/Str/Cool/
16:23 timotimo send is for string data, write is for binary data
16:23 hoelzro I figured that the send/write split was so that they map to their corresponding system calls
16:24 ugexe send just does the encode for you
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16:24 hoelzro is that its only reason for existing? send is a convenient wrapper around write?
16:25 hoelzro I can see some people getting confused, thinking that send is for send(2), and write is for write(2)
16:26 timotimo i don't recall what the difference is
16:26 hoelzro send(2) takes flags, and write(2) doesn't, basically
16:27 hoelzro send with flags=0 is equivalent to write
16:27 timotimo ah, OK
16:27 timotimo i don't really like that we don't have a way to set flags on sockets, and also not on sending things
16:27 hoelzro if we want a convenient way to send a Cool, I would suggest that send be renamed to writes
16:27 hoelzro write(Blob), writes(Str(Cool))
16:29 ugexe doesnt it also have to do with how IO::Handle handles those across the IO:: modules?
16:29 hoelzro ugexe: the send/write distinction? afaik, Socket is the only IO::Handle that has send()
16:30 araujo joined #perl6
16:31 ugexe makes sense to me then
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16:55 avuserow m: class Foo {method bar () {try {self!wrong()}}}; my $f = Foo.new; $f.bar;
16:55 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot find method 'orig'␤»
16:55 avuserow ^^ can someone help me rakudobug that? thanks!
16:56 lizmat avuserow: rakudobugging is as simple as copying this conversation in an email to rakudobug@perl.org
16:58 avuserow okay, I'll have to do that after $dayjob then, if it's restricted to email
16:59 lucasb joined #perl6
16:59 TimToady m: say [X] |((^2,) xx 3)
16:59 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 1␤»
17:00 avuserow I think I've submitted tickets before, but I haven't been able to find anything when searching for my handle
17:00 TimToady jnthn, b2gills, timotimo: the problem here is that Range is excessively autoflattening, I think
17:00 TimToady and I believe GLR will probably fix it
17:01 TimToady along with @foo, which also autoflattens in an unfortunate way
17:06 raiph joined #perl6
17:06 hoelzro is anyone opposed to changing send to writes on Socket for now? I can make a spec change and deprecate send() if that's what the community wants
17:06 TimToady though perhaps that should be called "autoslip" with the new terminology; whatever we call it, ^2 and @foo shouldn't do it
17:08 virtualsue joined #perl6
17:08 TimToady m: say [X] |((0,1) xx 3)
17:08 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 1␤»
17:08 TimToady anyway, ^2 should probably be behaving more like (0,1) there
17:09 TimToady m: say [X] |([0,1]<> xx 3)
17:09 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 1 0 1 0 1␤»
17:09 TimToady there's the @foo failure
17:10 TimToady when we take itemization of [] away, that problem shows up more
17:12 TimToady under the glrish branch, (1,2),[3,4] currently returns 3 elements, due to unwanted Array autoslipping, which I haven't figured out how to disable
17:12 rindolf joined #perl6
17:13 TimToady (recall that glrish is trying to emulate the glr semantics on top of the old list engine as a top-down approach, whereas the actual GLR will have to be bottom up)
17:31 larion joined #perl6
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17:51 jnthn hoelzro: I'm not sure why it's not just called print, which is the usual thing on a file handle that accepts a Str
17:52 hoelzro jnthn: that's even better than writes!
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18:20 hahainternet so i have an array, of arrayrefs
18:20 hahainternet turns out 'unique' isn't deep
18:21 hahainternet any easy way to make it deep enough to care about these arrayrefs?
18:22 jnthn Mabye trying passing :with(&infix:<eqv>)
18:22 masak was gonna say.
18:22 jnthn ...but you said too slow and I beat you :P
18:23 masak m: my @a = [1, 2, 3], [7, 8, 9], [1, 2, 3]; my &with = &[eqv]; say @a.unique(:&with).perl
18:23 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«([1, 2, 3], [7, 8, 9])␤»
18:23 masak works. :)
18:23 * masak waits for someone to yell at him for that abuse of :&with
18:23 hahainternet what the hell is that masak
18:23 hahainternet i don't even understand it lol
18:23 masak :)
18:23 masak let me take you through it, step by step
18:24 masak you already know about .unique, obvs
18:24 hahainternet i assume you're passing it a named function reference
18:24 masak yep
18:24 hahainternet but i don't get how &[eqv] is caring about the inside a ref trivially
18:24 hahainternet that is freaking magic
18:24 masak and &[eqv] is just practical shorthand for &infix:<eqv>
18:24 hahainternet oh
18:24 masak which is the *function* handling the *operator* of that name
18:24 hahainternet so it'll just construct it as l infix r
18:24 masak yes.
18:24 hahainternet and ultimately, eqv is equivalence?
18:25 masak value equivalence, kind of
18:25 masak or "snapshot equivalence", sometimes called
18:25 hahainternet could you do .unique(with => &[eqv]) or the p6 equiv?
18:25 masak yep
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18:25 hahainternet fat commas still fine yeah? no preferred syntax?
18:25 masak that's why I expected to get yelled at, because that's actually clearer
18:25 masak far commas still fine, yeah
18:25 lucasb and even shorter :)
18:25 masak not for lack of trying by some :P
18:26 masak go with `with => &[eqv]`, it looks nice
18:26 jnthn indeed; masak++
18:26 * masak notes that :as is spec'd but :with is not
18:27 masak this might be a case that :with covers but :as doesn't
18:27 hahainternet so that does appear tow ork
18:27 hahainternet but
18:27 hahainternet i still don't quite understand &[eqv]
18:27 jercos wwebsite :as(on the internet)?
18:28 masak m: say &infix:<eqv>(3, 3)
18:28 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«True␤»
18:28 hahainternet i assume the function 'eqv' or infix:eqv actually tests deep equivalence?
18:28 masak m: say &[eqv](3, 3)
18:28 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«True␤»
18:28 masak m: say 3 eqv 3
18:28 hahainternet and it's nothing to do with the fancy &[] syntax?
18:28 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«True␤»
18:28 masak hahainternet: all those three forms mean the same.
18:28 masak hahainternet: does that help?
18:28 masak hahainternet: &[op] is just short for &infix:<op>
18:28 hahainternet no i get that it's short for the op
18:28 masak hahainternet: (because we do it a lot)
18:29 hahainternet you know, http://doc.perl6.org/routine/eqv is where i should be reading
18:29 hahainternet and currently am
18:29 hahainternet because line #1 of the example answers my question
18:29 hahainternet thank you masak, you constantly impress me
18:29 * masak bows
18:29 hahainternet ultimately this has been mangled into this: perl6 -e 'push @list,[$_[^2]] for (^6).permutations; say join("\n",@list.unique(with => &[eqv]))'
18:29 masak it helps to have been involved in the design of these things ;)
18:29 hahainternet which is mathematically unsound as well as ugly
18:30 hahainternet if you can be bothered, i'd appreciate a more perl6-y take on it so i can understand
18:30 hahainternet also, i'd like a better adjective, similar to 'pythonic'
18:30 hahainternet but 'perl-y' is too easily mistaken imo
18:30 PerlJam hahainternet: how about "p6y"  :)
18:31 hahainternet oh darn
18:31 hahainternet that doesn't work actually
18:31 masak hahainternet: 'sixy as hell' :)
18:31 hahainternet i need to sort it in another bit
18:31 hahainternet damnit
18:31 hahainternet yeah need a .sort after the [^2] to do what i intended
18:32 PerlJam hahainternet: maybe you want a set?
18:32 virtualsue joined #perl6
18:32 hahainternet but ultimately it works and was succinct and i learned more about perl6, job: done
18:32 hahainternet PerlJam: yeah probably, but i don't know enough mathematics to express what i'm looking for
18:32 masak hahainternet: if you're interested in how sausage gets made, you can read http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2013-08-04#i_7409206
18:33 PerlJam hahainternet: you don't really need to know much math ... just what sets are, how to construct them and something like .classify
18:33 masak hahainternet's use case causes me to (slightly) reconsider :with as something useful, even if it's slow.
18:33 masak (because I don't know how to do that with :as)
18:34 hahainternet masak: i'm familiar with sort/map/grep in p5, :with seems like a natural extension
18:34 hahainternet also PerlJam that's kinda impossible for me to know whether i am competent, as an incompetent person doesn't think they are
18:34 hahainternet but i'll go read classify and see if i can be slightly non stupid
18:34 masak hahainternet: sometimes I feel that all the list operations in Perl 6 have a nice underlying symmetry to them (that Perl 6 doesn't quite reveal)
18:34 PerlJam hahainternet: Don't let competency (or lack thereof) stop you!  ;)
18:35 hahainternet PerlJam: oh i didn't, already pasted that code to a friend :D
18:35 PerlJam hahainternet++
18:36 hahainternet PerlJam: so honestly thoug, i don't see how a set would particularly help here, let me explain the problem succinctly
18:37 hahainternet 6 players, 4 slots on server, generate permutations that allow every possible player combination
18:37 hahainternet this is clearly something well solved in maths / set theory / god knows what
18:37 lucasb hahainternet: Did you want something like this: .say for (^6).combinations.grep(*.elems == 2) ?
18:37 lizmat jnthn: wrt to Channel renaming, why not call it Thread::Queue , because afaics that's the P5 equivalent
18:37 hahainternet lucasb: hahaha wow
18:37 hahainternet that works great
18:37 hahainternet now i just have to understand why
18:38 masak m: .say for (^6).combinations(4)
18:38 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0 1 2 3␤0 1 2 4␤0 1 2 5␤0 1 3 4␤0 1 3 5␤0 1 4 5␤0 2 3 4␤0 2 3 5␤0 2 4 5␤0 3 4 5␤1 2 3 4␤1 2 3 5␤1 2 4 5␤1 3 4 5␤2 3 4 5␤»
18:38 hahainternet oh goddamnit perl
18:38 masak hahainternet: ^
18:38 hahainternet why are you so good
18:38 masak we can't help it, sorry
18:38 masak it's like a compulsion
18:38 hahainternet seriously though, how does lucasb's work
18:39 hahainternet oh, because it's combinations
18:39 hahainternet i was reading it as (^6).permutations.grep
18:39 lucasb I think masak's is even better: (^6).combinations(2)
18:39 masak I think mine is better too :>
18:39 hahainternet yeah it is, i misread yours for a second lucasb
18:39 lucasb I didn't know about the argument to combinations :)
18:39 hahainternet that really is fantastic
18:39 PerlJam I third it ... masak's is beter ;)
18:40 masak it's not bad, I guess
18:40 PerlJam hahainternet: you should still learn about .classify and sets
18:40 masak oh, .classify is awesome
18:40 masak I find myself wondering why other languages don't have that one
18:40 PerlJam hahainternet: then, when the time it right, you can be someone else's masak.  ;)
18:40 hahainternet masak: you know the bgigest problem with the ^6 syntax
18:40 masak probably because they don't internalize hashes enough
18:40 hahainternet is that ^5 is the shorthand for 'hi-5'
18:41 masak hahainternet: I'm willing to live with that :P
18:41 hahainternet o/ is a pretty good substitute i guess
18:41 hahainternet masak: o/
18:41 masak \o
18:41 masak :D
18:41 hahainternet PerlJam: any reading you recommend? i am usually that sort of nerd to friends, but perl6 is an 'order of magnitude' (more like a meta level) more complex than anything i know
18:41 masak hahainternet: you can read `^6` as "up to 6".
18:41 hahainternet masak: yeah exactly, plus of course ^..^
18:42 hahainternet although i find this a bit weird:
18:42 hahainternet m: .say for ^6.combinations(2)
18:42 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤    Precedence of ^ is looser than method call; please parenthesize␤    at /tmp/HYNEGNWIPZ:1␤    ------> 3.say for ^67⏏5.combinations(2)␤»
18:42 masak hahainternet: `$a ^..^ $b` is pronounced "$a neko $b" :P
18:42 [Coke] m: ^5>>.sqrt.say
18:42 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«2.23606797749979␤»
18:42 hahainternet would have expected that to work, i mean it's clear why it doesn't
18:42 [Coke] m: say ^5>>.sqrt
18:42 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«0..^1␤»
18:42 masak hahainternet: prefix ops are looser than a bunch of postfix things.
18:42 hahainternet >> is hyper list op or whatever right? christ if i can remember
18:43 masak hahainternet: one quickly learns to parenthesize (^$x) almost always.
18:43 hahainternet masak: sure, i'm not trying to argue it would be correct, just that i expected it to work
18:43 hahainternet no criticism implied
18:43 masak hahainternet: yes, everything hyper is >>
18:43 hahainternet i learned how to type «» just for p6 <3
18:43 masak hahainternet: as you grow into the precedence, you will realize that it couldn't be any other way... for better or worse :) :/
18:43 hahainternet masak: i'll take your word for it, (^6) is no big harm
18:43 masak «3
18:44 jnthn lizmat: I'm not sure it belongs under Thread::
18:44 lizmat jnthn: then maybe just Queue ?
18:44 larion joined #perl6
18:44 jnthn lizmat: If I was going to namespace it I'd maybe do Concurrent::
18:44 atroxaper joined #perl6
18:44 hahainternet oh right, so i get how classify works
18:45 hahainternet the single paragraph prose could do with a little work i think
18:45 hahainternet it's very succinct but a little aggressive
18:45 lizmat jnthn: anyway, I thought putting it under Thread:: would be an indication of its primitiveness
18:45 masak hahainternet: .classify is like a generalized .grep
18:45 hahainternet indeed, the example makes it very clear
18:45 masak hahainternet: it sorts everything into bins according to some rule
18:45 hahainternet with even/odd, the prose is just a little, i dunno, it feels a bit weird
18:45 masak *nod*
18:45 lizmat oO( .bucketize )
18:45 masak hahainternet: hold on, dig you up a link
18:46 virtualsue joined #perl6
18:46 hahainternet masak: no pressure, i think i get it, although not sure how i'd do these combinations with it
18:46 masak hahainternet: http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/6-builti​ns-in-perl-6-that-you-never-knew-you-needed
18:46 hahainternet but i am here to be schooled
18:46 jnthn lizmat: It's not *that* badly primitive ;)
18:46 hahainternet masak: bookmarked immediately
18:46 jnthn lizmat: Big +1 on the name having queue in, anyway :)
18:46 masak hahainternet: might be more useful examples in that one. feel free to nab them for the documentation.
18:46 masak hahainternet: post is a bit old, and might be slightly out-of-date.
18:46 hahainternet masak: i found the explanations were really quite good
18:47 masak yay
18:47 hahainternet oh, that reminds me, i assume you've seen the 'generate a fibonacci based on infinite list, compare to 1/9999999... etc done with fatrat' example?
18:47 hahainternet i can paste if required, just wanted to ask about syntax, but i can check on the terminal
18:47 masak hahainternet: you mean https://justrakudoit.wordpress.com/201​5/07/02/fun-and-easy-fibonacci-trick/ ?
18:47 colomon joined #perl6
18:48 brrt joined #perl6
18:48 hahainternet masak: that'd be the one
18:48 hahainternet so, i'm not sure what's going on with .map(+*)
18:48 hahainternet or Z==
18:48 hahainternet i can guess [&&] is list equivalence or similar
18:48 masak hahainternet: ok, one at a time:
18:49 masak hahainternet: +* means the same as { +$_ }
18:49 masak hahainternet: so basically "numify", "turn into a number"
18:49 masak hahainternet: Z== is "pairwise =="
18:49 hahainternet oh right ok, i was confused because there should be no numerical addition going on there
18:49 hahainternet ok so it produces a list of (True, True, True etc)
18:49 hahainternet and then [&&] expand the list with infix &&s?
18:49 masak hahainternet: so @a Z== @b, means @a[0] == @b[0], ...
18:50 masak hahainternet: yes, exactly. it's a reduction on the op &&
18:50 hahainternet ok, i thought Z== was part of the zip operator (hyper-operator?), is that X instead?
18:50 hahainternet i know there is something that'll zip up two lists together
18:50 hahainternet and i wasn't sure if you were testing pairwise for equality
18:50 jnthn OK, what should I hack on this evening, now I've rested and had dinner and bored myself with immigration law...
18:51 hahainternet jnthn: which country's immigration law?
18:51 jnthn hahainternet: "Schengen" :)
18:51 masak jnthn: don't hack immigration law!
18:51 jnthn masak: If only :P
18:51 masak at least not tonight...
18:51 hahainternet jnthn: ah, truly a wonderful thing
18:51 jnthn Well, it's not as bad as debugging a parallel GC, but... :)
18:52 jnthn Ooh, we're only at 1031 tickets after I didn't fix any for a couple of days. I can get us back to 1030 easy enough then :)
18:52 hahainternet god i wish i could help out
18:52 hahainternet i have just resolved to use p6 as my toy language to test everything with that might eventually get written in another
18:53 hahainternet and this way at least i can learn plenty, if not be useful
18:53 jnthn m: my sub foo() returns Bar { }
18:53 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/dlhsslivJw␤Invalid typename␤at /tmp/dlhsslivJw:1␤------> 3my sub foo() returns7⏏5 Bar { }␤»
18:53 jnthn Complainant wishes the error contained the invalid typename...I guess :)
18:53 jnthn hoelzro: Is "include typename in error" enough for you? :)
18:53 jnthn std: my sub foo() returns Bar { }
18:53 camelia std 28329a7: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Invalid type name at /tmp/PUk_PGlehB line 1:␤------> 3my sub foo() returns 7⏏5Bar { }␤    expecting typename␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 136m␤»
18:53 [Coke] jnthn: I read that ticket, and that seemed to be the missing part, yes.
18:53 hoelzro jnthn: for the returns BadType ticket?
18:53 hoelzro yes
18:54 jnthn OK, easily done
18:54 [Coke] hoelzro++ jnthn++
18:54 hoelzro excellent, thanks!
18:54 jnthn I'll make it a typed exception while I@m at it
18:54 jnthn A good warm-up ticket for me :)
18:54 hahainternet oh i'd like to say one more thing while i'm here and chatting, the std/rakudo split and the number of tests i see entered as a result of tickets is truly fantastic. I'm a long time p5 devotee and I think what you guys (and gals) have produced is intelligent at every level
18:54 hahainternet i love the fact i can come in here and be completely schooled in the best way
18:55 hahainternet thanks again for your tireless efforts, remind me to put £100 in some donation box sooner or later please
18:55 hahainternet you don't receive enough thanks imo
18:56 lizmat hahainternet: if youi're at OSCON, you could buy 2 Perl6 Core Dev Fund patches at 50 US$ each  :-)
18:56 lizmat afk&
18:56 hahainternet i won't, but i'm happy to throw $150 at someone to do it on my behalf
18:56 nwc10 18:56 <dipsy> 100 GBP is 155.72 USD
18:56 nwc10 real money is worth more. :-)
18:57 hahainternet we could split the difference and use €150
18:57 hahainternet which is near as damnit £100 these days
18:59 PerlJam hahainternet: You could give via https://secure.donor.com/pf012/give  (Scroll down to the Perl 6 Development box)
19:00 domidumont joined #perl6
19:00 masak hahainternet: always nice to hear from supportive p5ers.
19:00 hahainternet PerlJam: but now i want some patches :o
19:00 PerlJam (as an aside, is there a name under perlfoundation.org that leads to the secure.donor.com link?)
19:00 hahainternet masak: i enjoy following raiph on reddit / pm and watching the drama follow him around too
19:01 masak oh, wow. raiph++
19:02 geekosaur joined #perl6
19:02 hahainternet oh, yet another stupid question, can i perl6doc any of these functions/classes/what-have-you?
19:02 hahainternet i use rakudobrew, but couldn't find any equivalent to perldoc in p6
19:02 masak hahainternet: there's http://docs.perl6.org/
19:03 masak hahainternet: I'm not aware of a terminal equivalent -- other people here may know of one.
19:03 masak or plans for one.
19:04 moritz there's a p6doc shipped with perl6/doc
19:04 hahainternet imho you certainly shouldn't abandon the terminal tool, but i'm not going to demand its implementation
19:04 itz not many of the ecosystem modules actually have embedded pod .. the use of github means the docs is README.md which isn't installed
19:05 masak moritz++ # see? someone knew. :)
19:07 PerlJam itz: aye, that's one of my chief annoyances with P6 ... once I install a module, I have to go back to the github repo to read how to use it (or read the source)
19:08 hahainternet that is something that would be a shame, the ability to use perldoc for all the lookups i need to do is something i've been teaching my placement student
19:08 hahainternet allows you to avoid relying on google to start with, which is a bad habit that allows people to get too lazy :D
19:08 itz PerlJam: I did wonder if a work around would be to have panda install README.md for module Foo as Foo.pod (if that file doesn't exist)
19:09 itz or maybe even just README.md and make p6doc look for that
19:10 jnthn $ perl6-m -e "my sub foo() returns Bar { }"
19:10 jnthn ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling -e
19:10 jnthn Invalid typename 'Bar'. Did you mean 'Bag'?
19:10 hahainternet if anything POD might be renderable to README.md
19:10 jnthn Suggestions :)
19:10 PerlJam jnthn++
19:11 jnthn For things where you couldn't possibly mean a typename I did:
19:11 jnthn perl6-m -e "my sub foo() returns !!!WTF???? { }"
19:11 jnthn ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling -e
19:11 jnthn Malformed trait
19:11 itz I don't think converting pod to and from markdown would be hard
19:11 jnthn Which I think is fair enough
19:11 rangerprice joined #perl6
19:12 moritz itz: patches/modules welcome :-)
19:12 itz RSN
19:12 itz :)
19:12 rangerprice Hi guys !
19:13 hoelzro jnthn++
19:13 moritz \o rangerprice
19:13 hoelzro itz: there's a Pod::To::Markdown impl
19:15 rangerprice I really love perl *-*
19:16 PerlJam rangerprice: we do too!  :-)
19:17 masak rangerprice: hi! you're in the right place. :)
19:17 masak we love Perl so much, we made one from scratch!
19:18 PerlJam .oO( Perl 6 -- now with even *more* love! )
19:18 rangerprice The perl wikipedia page say that they will have a RC of Perl 6 in september, is it true ?
19:19 moritz we strive to make it true
19:19 PerlJam I'm not even sure what that means
19:19 PerlJam We have release candidates for a Perl 6 compiler every month!
19:19 PerlJam :)
19:19 itz everything breaks due to no allowed deprecations in Sep? :)
19:20 PerlJam and what does a release candidate mean for the language spec?
19:20 jnthn PerlJam: "We don't intend to change much now" :)
19:20 masak it means free PR, that's what.
19:20 masak nothing much changes for the early adopter who already uses Perl 6.
19:21 rangerprice I think that when perl 6 will be officially released, it will become most popular that Python
19:21 rangerprice than*
19:22 masak I... hope that doesn't happen overnight.
19:22 masak there's such a thing as growing pains.
19:22 hahainternet i think it would be quite amusing
19:22 * moritz is sceptical it'll happen at all
19:22 hahainternet if Perl6 took off faster than Python 3
19:22 moritz python continues to grow, afaict
19:22 hahainternet just due to the heavy irony
19:22 rangerprice i speak french so here's my excuse for mmy spelling misteaks
19:22 masak moritz: I'm skeptical too.
19:23 moritz and the perl lovers and the python lovers are often (though not always) quite distinct species
19:23 PerlJam I'm not skeptical ... because I don't care about popularity contests ;)
19:23 masak m: say "misteaks".subst(/eak/, "ake")
19:23 camelia rakudo-moar ef4de6: OUTPUT«mistakes␤»
19:23 rangerprice :)
19:23 dalek rakudo/nom: f90dfc9 | jnthn++ | src/ (2 files):
19:23 dalek rakudo/nom: Improve errors for traits with bad typenames.
19:23 dalek rakudo/nom:
19:23 dalek rakudo/nom: Include type name we couldn't find, if any, and give suggestions. Or,
19:23 dalek rakudo/nom: if we can't even parse a longname there, complain it's malformed. Do
19:23 dalek rakudo/nom: a typed exception too.
19:23 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f90dfc9834
19:24 masak PerlJam: I was going to say that. but then I realize that I *do* have a slight egotistical benefit in there being a vibrant community around Perl 6.
19:24 masak PerlJam: it will mean the bugs I find get fixed faster, for one :P
19:24 PerlJam good point.
19:25 masak no such thing as pure altruism :P
19:25 rangerprice Is everybody here are on Linux ?
19:25 PerlJam Though ... I'm happy with #perl6 plus or minus the epsilon of transients ;)
19:25 dalek roast: 9530cf1 | jnthn++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
19:25 dalek roast: Tests for RT #125642.
19:25 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/9530cf1cf7
19:25 dalek roast: 827d80f | jnthn++ | S02-literals/types.t:
19:25 dalek roast: Update test now we have a typed exception here.
19:25 synbot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Publi​c/Bug/Display.html?id=125642
19:25 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/827d80f1f3
19:25 masak PerlJam: oh, me too.
19:25 hahainternet rangerprice: i am, for what it's worth
19:25 PerlJam rangerprice: nope, we've got some people on OSX and Windows too
19:25 PerlJam rangerprice: I'm on ubuntu however :)
19:25 masak PerlJam: if #perl6 stayed like this forever, I wouldn't consider that a failure by any measure.
19:26 PerlJam masak: me too
19:26 masak PerlJam: #perl6 might be the best thing that ever happened to my programming career.
19:26 rangerprice ah okay, i'm on arch linux
19:26 itz just wait until the killer framework is written in perl6 and the channel flooded with n00bs?
19:27 masak itz: I keep saying, we had a foretaste of that around the first release of R*.
19:27 PerlJam itz: I will wait.  Hopefully, when that happens, we'll be just has friendly and helpful as ever.  Even with the random new people.
19:28 masak itz: it made me a little bit sick to the stomach :/ suddenly (a) I couldn't keep up with the IRC stream in real time, and (b) it was very low-quality
19:28 masak itz: it was as if someone had come in and broken #perl6
19:28 * masak .oO( success-at-all-costs: avoid )
19:29 PerlJam In some sense the community building is way more important than the "official language release"
19:29 dalek roast: 6277a01 | jnthn++ | S14-roles/basic.t:
19:29 dalek roast: Unfudge a couple more passing tests.
19:29 dalek roast:
19:29 dalek roast: Thanks to the better trait error reporting.
19:29 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/6277a01e87
19:30 masak PerlJam: amen.
19:30 itz a new #perl6-help might become necessary ... I hope we can avoid the n00b unfriendliness sometimes assocated with perl5
19:30 itz it is hard
19:31 PerlJam itz: why is it hard do you think?
19:31 [Coke] We can have a backup plan to split into #perl6 and #p6p or something.
19:32 masak PerlJam: might be like on Twitter. generating bullshit costs $x. refuting/correcting it costs 10 * $x
19:33 masak PerlJam: even if the ratio isn't that bad, if the ratio of newcomers-to-regulars is 10:1, then it's hard to preserve any community spirit
19:33 * masak thinks about this a lot :/
19:33 masak been thinking about this since 2009. http://strangelyconsistent.org/​blog/how-can-we-scale-kindness
19:35 PerlJam masak: I tend to think it's more the hard-line pedantry that tends to hurt #perl (and Perl 5) than anything.  It's the under-lying current of superiority that tends to change the tone of the community.
19:35 itz a number of reasons .. explaining difficult concepts over IRC can be time consuming and frustraiting for both parties
19:36 itz and "hard-line pedantry" is a problem
19:36 itz (over IRC, email and blogs I mean)
19:38 masak PerlJam: if I explain a thing kindly/pedagogically to newcomers 99 times, and then number 100 arrives, I can see how I might start to lose faith in humanity, and go "look, you *idiots*, I've told you a hundred times..."
19:38 masak especially if along the way people weren't always grateful/receptive.
19:39 PerlJam WE just need to continually remind ourselves (and everyone else) to "be nice"  :)
19:39 felher masak: which would be wrong, because at this time, you only told them 99 times :P
19:39 itz ^100 you mean?
19:39 rangerprice masak do you need a blog that explain thing that you talk one time for every newcormers ?
19:40 rangerprice it would be a good idea to save explained thing in a text document or in a paper to futur newcomers
19:41 masak rangerprice: yes, sometimes that's the solution. I write blog posts like that, to be able to URL people.
19:41 PerlJam rangerprice: and even still we should be nice in explaining that the information they seek is located in that document and be receptive when they have difficulty accessing it.
19:41 masak felher: :P
19:42 masak PerlJam: cultivating a "be nice" culture is one thing. Ruby did that. I think it's maybe necessary but not sufficient.
19:43 PerlJam masak: agreed.
19:43 masak PerlJam: case in point: I don't think the Ruby culture gets full marks on being accepting to women.
19:43 yqt joined #perl6
19:44 masak (cf. Matt Aimonetti, DHH)
19:44 PerlJam masak: I'll note that your blog post from Jun 2009 mentions "both sexes".  That omits a whole host of people that we likely shouldn't be omitting.  (out of sight, out of mind, out of community)
19:44 rangerprice PerlJam: in that case, the community can do the job
19:44 brrt hmm.. i'm not sure that's fair to ruby community
19:45 masak PerlJam: oh, oops. I'm willing to rephrase that. do you have a better phrasing.
19:45 brrt to the rails community and the big-bag-of-idiots they unleashed upon is, yes
19:45 masak PerlJam: ...?
19:45 brrt s/is/us/
19:45 FROGGS masak: all... ?
19:45 brrt hmm
19:45 masak brrt: yeah, the Rails community is probably worse. not sure it's fair to disconnect it entirely from the Ruby community, though.
19:45 brrt in my view perl was always kind of hacker-culture
19:46 masak PerlJam: ready to push s/both sexes/all sexes/, if you think that fixes things.
19:46 brrt well, hmm, let me phrase the ruby thing
19:46 PerlJam masak: fine with me.  :)
19:47 masak pushed. blog post will update in a minute.
19:47 lucasb masak: don't forget the s-expressions too!
19:47 masak PerlJam++
19:47 masak lucasb: I'm working on macros for Rakudo. it's not likely I will forget s-expressions. :P
19:48 Hor|zon joined #perl6
19:48 rangerprice Really masak ? you work on putting macro system (similar than C macros) in perl 6 ? oh my god
19:49 PerlJam rangerprice: no, *not* similiar to C macros :)
19:49 brrt who said anything about similar to C
19:49 brrt also, C macro's are pretty awesome :-)
19:49 PerlJam heh!
19:49 rangerprice ah ok PerlJam :)
19:50 PerlJam rangerprice: masak is working on what'd like to call "real macros" rather than the simple substitution macros that C has.
19:50 PerlJam *I
19:50 rangerprice ah ok
19:51 El_Che There is a difference between being not explicitely inclusive on every sentence and sexism. I don't every text should have a series of nouns separated by slashes. What works for me is being explicit on the inclusiveness in a central point on the site ("about", "who we are", "our vision") and writes text with a coherent noun usage (e.g. using she throuout the text). Just an idea.
19:52 El_Che of course, if there is low hanging fruit like in PerlJam's example, even better
19:52 PerlJam Though, clearly there's a desire to have simple substitutions (just like C).   I've wished for them a couple of times myself when I had to write the same "is export is native('foolib') {*}" a bunch of times (or things like that)
19:52 masak rangerprice: what PerlJam said. I'm pretty adamant that the macros ought to work on the AST level, not on the source text level.
19:53 masak (which means they'll be better in almost every way)
19:53 masak rangerprice: that said, the *spec* contains textual macros à la C, too.
19:53 llfourn joined #perl6
19:53 hahainternet there was a perl6advent a couple of years ago that displayed a very interesting prototype
19:53 masak rangerprice: but that's for someone way more insane to implement :P
19:53 masak hahainternet: the prototype is basically implemented in Rakudo already.
19:54 masak hahainternet: was it https://perl6advent.wordpress.​com/2012/12/23/day-23-macros/ perchance?
19:54 * brrt notes that C macros work post-tokenization
19:54 hahainternet masak: looks like it, there was one or two other token parts that i read at the time
19:55 rangerprice ok
19:55 PerlJam El_Che: For me, I think we (the perl 6 community) should cultivate a gentle attitude of reminding each other to be inclusive and kind.   (yes, I'm a bit of a dreamer sometimes)
19:55 masak brrt: tokenization in Perl 6 is woven all the way through the parser. good luck disentangling it :>
19:56 timotimo i'm very interested in making (well, keeping) the perl6 community as inclusive as possible; we are, to an extent, at the "beginning" of forming a/the community
19:56 brrt i was not suggesting that it'd be easy
19:56 masak hahainternet: if you want the latest plans for Perl 6 macros, I recommend http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/mac​ros-progress-report-after-a-long-break + my more recent bloggage
19:56 hahainternet PerlJam: i quite like the idea of codes of conduct, mostly because i'm tired of dealing with groups full of arseholes, but it's such a contentious topic i fear even including it in this sentence
19:56 El_Che PerlJam: it's the right for the social experiment. Before the trolls got in.
19:56 timotimo hahainternet: COC isn't only helpful for dealing with arseholes, though
19:56 hahainternet masak: muchos gracias, i need to investigate sum types and higher kinded etc in perl 6 too so i may read this later
19:56 amurf joined #perl6
19:57 masak hahainternet: sounds like you ought to talk to vendethiel :)
19:57 rangerprice if i give 100$ as donate, then this money will really help the project ? :)
19:57 hahainternet masak: oh god if only i had the time, i need to read and digest what i've learned about p6 so far
19:57 timotimo yeah, ven has been doing good things with parametric roles and such
19:57 PerlJam rangerprice: if you give it to the Perl 6 Dev Fund, yes.
19:57 hahainternet timotimo: i don't disagree, but i'm much too afraid to express a strong opinion
19:57 masak Perl 6 doesn't really have the typological rigor for sum types and higher-kinded types, unfortunately.
19:57 timotimo rangerprice: you can put the money towards letting jnthn do a few more hours of focused perl6 work, and that will have a measurable (and feel-able!) impact
19:58 timotimo hahainternet: well, what i mean is it can be a good crystallization seed for interesting and helpful discussion
19:58 hahainternet masak: that is how i understand it at the moment, but considering the current scope of std, i'd like to see what someone with it in mind could come up with
19:58 virtualsue joined #perl6
19:58 timotimo i've recently seen a discussion around a CoC go horribly wrong; i think it was FreeBSD
19:58 hahainternet timotimo: no disagreement whatsoever
19:58 timotimo :)
19:58 hahainternet Go's was fairly horrible too, i stopped reading
19:58 hahainternet even though in general the Go community has been excellent imho
19:59 El_Che PerlJam: Wendy and me have met some of the toxic python troll at the Perl booth at Fosdem. It's funny how silly they sounded and how off-putting they are for people dipping their toes in that community
19:59 timotimo hahainternet: and even though i'm all for making the community more diverse, i have no clue if/how i should approach people who fall into any kind of minority to advertise perl6
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20:01 PerlJam hahainternet: I'm not really a fan of formal codes of conduct as much as a conscious "living code of conduct" present in the community as a whole.
20:01 hahainternet oh god it starts, look i only mentioned it because it was incidental
20:01 hahainternet i am not advocating nor condemning the idea :D
20:01 hahainternet work it out amongst yourselves
20:02 timotimo PerlJam: having an actual, written code of conduct lets people - and i don't speak from experience, sadly/luckily - have less fear of speaking up on issues that impact them or others around them
20:02 hahainternet ultimately though, i'd like to hear the best burns the 'python trolls' have to come up with :D
20:03 timotimo PerlJam: if you have only a vague "people have always been nice" thing going, one thing i could imagine to be problematic is erosion - the kind of slow worsening of behavior that's made possible by successive weak "bad things"
20:03 timotimo hahainternet: "your spec isn't even finished yet!" probably ranks way up there?
20:03 PerlJam timotimo: aye.  Could be.
20:03 hahainternet timotimo: well the best trolls have a way of exposing actual weaknesses
20:03 hahainternet so most are banal, but some can be quite cutting and funny
20:03 timotimo there's the "best" trolls and the "loudest" trolls, i suppose
20:04 hahainternet indeed
20:04 PerlJam The best trolls come from within the community  :)
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20:04 jnthn <troll>Rakudo's closure serialization has bugs!</troll>
20:05 timotimo i'm not sure "i thas bugs!" is a very good trolling strategy
20:05 jnthn The bug is trolling me right now :P
20:05 * jnthn is trying to fix RT #125634
20:06 timotimo ;(
20:06 timotimo hahainternet: do you have experience with good projects/efforts to increase inclusiveness or even just attractiveness of a community?
20:07 jnthn Maybe I should have worked on a sort-of-hard bug rather than going from "easy" to "nasty" in one leap :)
20:07 hahainternet timotimo: i'm afraid not, it also depends what you mean by inclusiveness
20:07 hahainternet if you are looking for cultural diversity i think that's something that comes naturally
20:07 timotimo hahainternet: i'm not too sure of that myself
20:07 hahainternet but it's worthwhile making an effort to ensure diversity of viewpoints
20:08 hahainternet for example, i am utterly incapable with haskell, but i feel p6 should aim to encompass every use it has, but i am also nobod
20:08 hahainternet y
20:08 timotimo every use it has ... that's very difficult
20:09 hahainternet well, i don't mean the haskell infrastructure, just the language capabilities
20:09 hahainternet i'm not asking for that fwiw, i just mean as an example of a viewpoint that might be useless
20:10 PerlJam hahainternet: you don't need to self-editorialize here :)
20:11 hahainternet just in case eh, but yeah i'm trying to take some time to learn ocaml and haskell after that because i'm interested in my friend's viewpoint that Go has ignored developments in type theory
20:11 hahainternet and if that is indeed the case, which obviously seems to be partly opinion, i'd like to learn what's 'missing' from p6
20:11 PerlJam hahainternet++ excellent!  We welcome your insights  :)
20:12 masak hahainternet: if you need someone to discuss type theory (and category theory) with, I'm here for you :>
20:12 PerlJam .oO(  I wonder if I like using :) so much because I often punctuate real-life conversations with a smile  (sometimes wry, sometimes not))
20:12 hahainternet the problem is that i'm not sufficiently versed in either p6 or ocaml yet, hell i don't even really know how 'does' and 'is' work
20:12 TimToady p6 is missing the bits that require you to learn all of type theory before you start :)
20:12 timotimo one thing that only now enters my mind is: how well is perl6 usable for blind people? do braille displays handle our plethora of special characters well?
20:13 hahainternet i overuse emoticons when i am worried i am not expressing my emotional state clearly alongside my text :D
20:13 PerlJam timotimo: Does braille do unicode?
20:13 masak or Latin-1, for that matter
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20:14 TimToady I suspect most such graphemes would be translated to their uniname
20:14 PerlJam so ... Perl 6 looks like COBOL to the blind?
20:14 rangerprice What this line mean in a perl code:  *ù$^!!§\|-
20:14 masak rangerprice: it means "someone needs a hug!!!" :D
20:15 hahainternet TimToady: i'm honestly not sure what parts it is missing, obviously you have a better idea than me, but its type structure seems quite well thought through
20:15 * masak hugs rangerprice
20:15 hahainternet it would seem that for example, using type variables in declarations would fit in
20:15 hahainternet but again, i'm extremely ignorant
20:15 rangerprice ahah ah :D
20:16 timotimo please explain "use type variables in declarations"? we have that, or something like that anyway
20:16 * masak notes that rangerprice laughs just like Dracula, and ends the hug quickly
20:17 PerlJam masak: heh!
20:17 colomon joined #perl6
20:17 PerlJam colomon: o/
20:17 rangerprice but dracula doesn't exist. This is my revelation
20:17 masak colomon: \o
20:17 TimToady hahainternet: actually, I just left out the parts I don't understand :)
20:17 masak rangerprice: that's exactly what a secret vampire count would say, though.
20:17 hahainternet timotimo: can you link me to what's you think is already like that?
20:18 hahainternet because it's quicker for me to read and see if i've explained things badly vs type out a 5 line explanation lol
20:18 colomon \o
20:18 rangerprice yes ahahaha
20:18 * masak backs away some more
20:19 timotimo m: sub testsub(::T $a) { my T $b = $a; say $b.WHAT; } testsub(5); testsub("foo");
20:19 masak rangerprice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC0uvUuXVh8
20:19 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/WxU3DiKdv_␤Strange text after block (missing semicolon or comma?)␤at /tmp/WxU3DiKdv_:1␤------> 3b(::T $a) { my T $b = $a; say $b.WHAT; }7⏏5 testsub(5); testsub("foo");␤    expecting any of:␤    …»
20:19 rangerleaderpric joined #perl6
20:19 timotimo m: sub testsub(::T $a) { my T $b = $a; say $b.WHAT; }; testsub(5); testsub("foo");
20:19 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: OUTPUT«(Int)␤(Str)␤»
20:20 rangerprice masak: ahahaaaah
20:20 hahainternet timotimo: can i find this on docs easily enough? or in the spec?
20:21 hahainternet not sure what i should be looking for
20:21 timotimo hmm. type variables? parameterization?
20:21 rangerprice masak: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfD2xyOWm6U
20:21 timotimo you'll probably find most information on that by looking at roles?
20:21 hahainternet also TimToady if i figure out anything that makes sense that's missing i'll be sure to mention it
20:21 hahainternet timotimo: roger, i haven't come across the ::T syntax before you see
20:21 hahainternet i'm sure i've just missed it
20:22 muraiki joined #perl6
20:22 timotimo ah
20:22 jnthn m: say $*a; my $*a = 42;
20:22 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
20:22 timotimo try "type capture"
20:22 jnthn std: say $*a; my $*a = 42;
20:22 camelia std 28329a7: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 136m␤»
20:22 jnthn TimToady: https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=74756 wants the above to complain
20:23 jnthn TimToady: A bit like:
20:23 jnthn m: my $a; { say $a; my $a; }
20:23 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/lhpnxXiuHL␤Lexical symbol '$a' is already bound to an outer symbol;␤the implicit outer binding must be rewritten as OUTER::<$a>␤before you can unambiguously declare a new '$a' in this scope␤at /tmp/lhpn…»
20:23 masak rangerprice: Oreos solve everything. -- Oreo, Inc. :)
20:23 jnthn TimToady: Something you can rule on quickly? ;)
20:26 lucasb m: if $*something {}
20:26 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: ( no output )
20:27 lucasb ^^ This is case of failure silently getting discarded in boolean context
20:27 lucasb Can't it be a error instead?
20:27 FROGGS lucasb: that's intentional
20:27 masak m: say $*something
20:27 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: OUTPUT«Dynamic variable $*something not found␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/kRyiUAuh7g:1␤␤»
20:27 jnthn lucasb: Uhh...boolean context is designed to disarm failures
20:28 lucasb yes, failures are ok; what I'm saying is about undeclared dynamic variables lookup
20:28 jnthn They don't need declaration
20:28 FROGGS lucasb: that returns a failure
20:28 jnthn That isn't my point, my point is "do we want to catch cases where the programmer may be confused what they're accessing"
20:28 lucasb oh, they don't need declaration...
20:28 larion joined #perl6
20:29 jnthn In "say $*a; my $*a", the $*a there refers to the thing declared with "my" in the same scope
20:34 TimToady if it's possible to detect without too much effort, I wouldn't mind banning that
20:34 lucasb I didn't like the fact they don't dynvars don't need declaration because that could easy lead to typos getting ignored.
20:34 TimToady but I'd call it an illegal post-declaration
20:34 atroxaper joined #perl6
20:35 jnthn lucasb: If that actually hurts you, you're probably using dynvars too much ;)
20:35 jnthn TimToady: I don't think it'll be a load of effort.
20:35 PerlJam lucasb: sure, but the twigils are there to remind you of the implicit contract between you and the compiler.  "you don't have to declare these, so be careful, ok?"
20:35 TimToady if you're using so many...what jnthn said
20:35 masak m: my $*x = 1; { say $*x; my $*x = 2; say $*x }; say $*x
20:35 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: OUTPUT«(Any)␤2␤1␤»
20:35 TimToady btw, just measured dynvar overhead today, and looks to be 2-3% of compiling the setting
20:36 lucasb ok, thanks everybody!
20:36 jnthn TimToady: Yowser... :)
20:36 jnthn TimToady: I really should get rid of those we don't need in the QAST -> MAST :)
20:36 jnthn TimToady: If I can get one more quick ruling:
20:36 TimToady though perhaps as much as 5%, since the logging was considered outside
20:36 jnthn std: /a:/
20:36 camelia std 28329a7: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter : (must be quoted to match literally) at /tmp/fkGSJm2wD8 line 1:␤------> 3/a:7⏏5/␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:00 136m␤»
20:36 jnthn std: / a: /
20:36 camelia std 28329a7: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 135m␤»
20:36 jnthn m: /a:/
20:36 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: ( no output )
20:36 jnthn m: / a: /
20:36 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: ( no output )
20:37 TimToady looks like a STD bug
20:37 jnthn In Rakudo we use <!alpha> after the : backtrack control, in STD it uses <!before \s>
20:37 jnthn Who, if anyone, is doing it right? :)
20:37 jnthn std: / a: %% x /
20:37 camelia std 28329a7: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 135m␤»
20:38 jnthn I...think that one is an STD bug :P
20:38 jnthn m: / a: %% x /
20:38 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/uUk29XL6XN␤'' many only be used immediately following a quantifier␤at /tmp/uUk29XL6XN:1␤------> 3/ a: %% x7⏏5 /␤»
20:38 jnthn The error reporting being off aside, Rakudo nails that as wrong
20:38 jnthn STD parses a : backtrack control as a quantifier, which leads to the separator oddness
20:39 TimToady : isn't really a quantifier
20:39 jnthn Rakudo does it all the way up in quantified_atom
20:39 TimToady <!alpha> is probably okay for now
20:40 TimToady m: foo:;
20:40 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/OJcZAWqLO1␤Confused␤at /tmp/OJcZAWqLO1:1␤------> 3foo:7⏏5;␤    expecting any of:␤        colon pair␤»
20:40 TimToady there's a spot we also require space, though
20:40 TimToady and /a:/ is highly artificial
20:41 TimToady since there's almost always something after it to cause said backtracking
20:41 TimToady and space is a really good idea there
20:42 jnthn Now you're argued it both ways :)
20:42 TimToady plus if we require the space, it'll catch more thinkos of the needs backslash variety
20:43 dalek nqp: c32f2f9 | jnthn++ | src/QRegex/P6Regex/Actions.nqp:
20:43 dalek nqp: Fix a busted error reporting about bogus %/%%.
20:43 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/c32f2f90b1
20:43 TimToady otgh, requiring a space under :s is a problem
20:44 TimToady well, maybe that space is always insignificant...
20:45 TimToady m: say 'foobar' ~~ /foo: bar/
20:45 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: OUTPUT«「foobar」␤»
20:45 TimToady m: say 'foobar' ~~ /:s foo: bar/
20:45 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
20:45 TimToady I guess it's considered sigspace currently
20:46 TimToady m: say '00:11:22' ~~ /00:11:22/
20:46 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
20:46 TimToady I'm a little worried about this though
20:47 TimToady maybe <!alnum> would be more appropriate
20:47 masak that ought to at least warn...
20:47 TimToady std: say '00:11:22' ~~ /00:11:22/
20:47 camelia std 28329a7: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Unrecognized regex modifier :11 at /tmp/vqp2vqOAa_ line 1:␤------> 3say '00:11:22' ~~ /00:117⏏5:22/␤Unrecognized regex modifier :22 at /tmp/vqp2vqOAa_ line 1:␤------> 3say '00:11:22' ~~ /00:11:227⏏5/␤Check failed␤FAILED …»
20:47 masak right.
20:48 * masak submits rakudobug
20:48 masak 'night, #perl6
20:49 raydiak good night masak
20:49 timotimo gnite masak :)
20:49 timotimo oh hey raydiak
20:49 raydiak afternoon timo o/
20:50 raydiak (and hello #perl6)
20:53 [Sno] joined #perl6
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20:53 integral joined #perl6
20:53 integral joined #perl6
20:54 virtualsue joined #perl6
21:00 jnthn $ perl6-m -e "say $*a; my $*a = 42;"
21:00 jnthn ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling -e
21:00 jnthn Cannot post-declare dynamic variable '$*a'; earlier accesses
21:00 jnthn must be rewritten as CALLER:<$*a>
21:00 jnthn ...anyone got any word-smithing for the message?
21:02 PerlJam not really, but I'd mention something about scope probably
21:02 FROGGS jnthn: isnt there a colon missing?
21:02 jnthn FROGGS: yes
21:03 jnthn PerlJam: Suggestion?
21:03 jnthn FROGGS: Fixed that one
21:03 jnthn PerlJam: I wrote "in this scope" and then was like "but huh, you can't post-declare it in any scope" so removed it again :P
21:04 TimToady "Illegal post-declaration of dynamic variable '$*a'; earlier access must be written as CALLER:<$*a>"
21:04 PerlJam "Cannot declare dynamic variable '$*a' after access in the same scope"
21:04 PerlJam or something
21:05 TimToady ...if that's what you meant"
21:05 jnthn TimToady: heh, you actually want the "if that's what you meant" on the end? :P
21:06 jnthn It's tempting ;)
21:06 TimToady well, it might not be what they meant
21:06 jnthn True
21:06 TimToady they might have thought the post-decl would work
21:06 jnthn *nod*
21:06 * jnthn adds it
21:07 TimToady anyway, singular "access" and no need for the "re"
21:07 jnthn yup
21:07 jnthn Used your wording, thanks.
21:07 jnthn It's nearly done spectesting.
21:07 jnthn Wasn't too hard.
21:07 TimToady m: say Foo; class Foo {...}
21:07 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/_7tvu9v8D4␤Illegally post-declared type:␤    Foo used at line 1␤␤»
21:08 TimToady hmm, that's a bit different yet...
21:08 TimToady I remembered it a little worng
21:09 jnthn OK. I'll push the patch and you can word-smith further if you like :)
21:10 * TimToady will probably move on from dynvars to looking at current overhead of lexing
21:10 dolmen joined #perl6
21:11 jnthn TimToady: OK. My plan for tomorrow is to try and get the multi-dim access into Rakudo
21:11 colomon \o/
21:11 jnthn TimToady: Provided I wake up clear-headed enough for it...
21:11 jnthn TimToady: If you read my S17 ponderings: did they seem sane/right direction?
21:12 jnthn (I'm more after a "semantic" check; I know you'll probably want to go renaming...)
21:13 dalek rakudo/nom: b7d00f0 | jnthn++ | src/ (3 files):
21:13 dalek rakudo/nom: Complain about "say $*a; my $*a".
21:13 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b7d00f0a4a
21:13 dalek roast: 6f3f112 | jnthn++ | S02-names-vars/contextual.t:
21:13 dalek roast: Test for RT #74756.
21:13 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/6f3f112159
21:13 synbot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=74756
21:13 jnthn There goes another 5-year-old RT...
21:16 jnthn std: /00:11:22/
21:16 camelia std 28329a7: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Unrecognized regex modifier :11 at /tmp/EEoNYPrllF line 1:␤------> 3/00:117⏏5:22/␤Unrecognized regex modifier :22 at /tmp/EEoNYPrllF line 1:␤------> 3/00:11:227⏏5/␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:00 136m␤»
21:17 TimToady I'd probably just go ahead and require space if it weren't for the sigspace issue
21:17 TimToady maybe require space or closer
21:18 TimToady haven't looked at S17, but maybe I can do that later today
21:18 jnthn TimToady: OK, it's not a patch to S17, more a gist
21:18 jnthn TimToady: I had the S09 issues gist too :)
21:18 TimToady I saw in the backlog, but was skimming at the time
21:18 jnthn Neither are blocking me yet
21:18 jnthn OK
21:19 jnthn I'd love to get the new supply syntax sugar in ahead of when I gotta submit my YAPC::Asia talk though :)
21:19 TimToady nodnod
21:20 * TimToady should start thinking about what to talk about too...
21:20 jnthn TimToady: I went with <!alnum> and fixed the modifier error reporting for now...
21:20 TimToady k
21:20 jnthn I'm assuming you meant "don't do the whitespace demand 'cus of the sigspace issue"?
21:21 TimToady if we did do it, we'd need to allow ] as well to disambiguate under sigspace
21:21 TimToady [foo:] bar
21:22 TimToady but <!alnum> is okay for now
21:22 jnthn OK
21:23 PerlJam m: say <a a b b c c d d>.Bag.fmt('%s');
21:23 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: OUTPUT«a␤c␤b␤d␤»
21:23 PerlJam TimToady: is a Bag a listy thing or a hashy thing?
21:23 jnthn m: say <a a b b c c d d>.Bag.fmt('%s times %s');
21:23 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: OUTPUT«a times 2␤c times 2␤b times 2␤d times 2␤»
21:24 PerlJam (this is from RT#121947)
21:24 synbot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Publi​c/Bug/Display.html?id=121947
21:25 PerlJam I think it's behaving as it should and the ticket should be closed.
21:25 jnthn PerlJam: I don't see anything surprising there
21:25 jnthn m: say <a a b b c c d d>.Bag.list.fmt('%s');
21:25 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: OUTPUT«Directives specify 1 argument, but 2 arguments were supplied␤␤»
21:26 jnthn m: say <a a b b c c d d>.Bag.list.perl
21:26 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: OUTPUT«(:a(2), :c(2), :b(2), :d(2))␤»
21:26 jnthn ah, what's the other thing... :)
21:26 jnthn m: say <a a b b c c d d>.Bag.^methods
21:26 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: OUTPUT«total Bag BagHash Mix MixHash elems pick fmt list categorize-list Set of ACCEPTS classify-list Int Num Real Bool hash grabpairs pickpairs Numeric default grab maxpairs new minpairs kxxv roll SetHash new-from-pairs BUILD WHICH Method+{<anon>}.new Method+{<a…»
21:26 jnthn m: say <a a b b c c d d>.Bag.kxxv.fmt('%s')
21:26 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: OUTPUT«a a c c b b d d␤»
21:26 jnthn There you go
21:27 jnthn Dammit folks, I was *joking* when I suggested kxxv as the method name for that :P
21:27 jnthn Even if it makes total sense :)
21:27 TimToady nobody could think of a better name :P
21:27 jnthn Nor can I, that's the annoying thing...
21:37 jnthn m: /a:omg/
21:37 camelia rakudo-moar f90dfc: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/6xwCNunQhC␤Unrecognized regex modifier :omg/␤at /tmp/6xwCNunQhC:1␤------> 3/a:omg/7⏏5<EOL>␤»
21:37 Hor|zon joined #perl6
21:39 dalek nqp: ee89370 | jnthn++ | src/QRegex/P6Regex/Grammar.nqp:
21:39 dalek nqp: Tighten check on what can come after : backmod.
21:39 dalek nqp:
21:39 dalek nqp: We don't allow numerics as well as alphanumerics.
21:39 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/ee89370066
21:39 dalek nqp: 78c7b8d | jnthn++ | src/QRegex/P6Regex/Grammar.nqp:
21:39 dalek nqp: Bring modifier failure reporting inline with STD.
21:39 dalek nqp:
21:39 dalek nqp: Also make it overridable.
21:39 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/78c7b8dc96
21:41 yqt joined #perl6
21:45 dalek rakudo/nom: 5be3c1b | jnthn++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
21:45 dalek rakudo/nom: Bump NQP_REVISION for regex engine fixes.
21:45 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5be3c1bcab
21:45 dalek rakudo/nom: 1b91828 | jnthn++ | src/ (2 files):
21:45 dalek rakudo/nom: Typed exception for unrecognized regex modifier.
21:45 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1b91828e62
21:45 dalek roast: aa2cc2e | jnthn++ | S05-metasyntax/unknown.t:
21:45 dalek roast: Test for RT #125648.
21:45 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/aa2cc2e9ec
21:45 dalek roast: 13775df | jnthn++ | S05-metasyntax/regex.t:
21:45 dalek roast: Test for RT #77524.
21:45 synbot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Publi​c/Bug/Display.html?id=125648
21:45 synbot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=77524
21:45 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/13775dff0f
21:45 amurf joined #perl6
21:46 jnthn And another ancient RT down :)
21:49 jnthn Enough for tonight
21:49 jnthn o/
21:50 PerlJam jnthn: sleep well and awaken clear-headed  :)
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22:44 rangerprice ih
22:44 rangerprice hi*
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23:33 TimToady .tell jnthn S17 gist seems sane to me, but that's a pretty low bar today :)
23:33 yoleaux TimToady: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
23:33 dalek rakudo-star-daily: bb867fc | coke++ | log/ (8 files):
23:33 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
23:33 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/bb867fc0cd
23:33 dalek perl6-roast-data: 0bbd34b | coke++ | / (9 files):
23:33 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
23:33 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/0bbd34bbc7

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