Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2015-08-11

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 ShimmerFairy Yeah, I'm not sure what's wrong.
00:02 ShimmerFairy m: class C { multi method M($go) { say "X" }; multi method M(Int $go) { callsame; callsame; callsame; } }; C.M(1)
00:02 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«X␤»
00:04 TimToady looks like a bug to me
00:05 AlexDaniel ok
00:05 AlexDaniel I'm already submitting a ticket
00:05 smls m: my $x = EnumMap.new("a", 1, "b", 2).list[0]; say $x; say $x.WHAT
00:05 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«a => 1␤(Pair)␤»
00:06 smls So EnumMap does not actually represent its entries as Enums as the design docs suggest?
00:09 AlexDaniel m: sub foo { say 'X' }; &foo.wrap:{ callsame; callsame; nextsame; say 'y' }; foo;
00:09 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«X␤y␤»
00:09 AlexDaniel it is interesting how the code just keeps executing after nextsame :)
00:10 TimToady it's almost as if callsame and nextsame were reversed
00:10 ShimmerFairy m: sub foo { say 'X' }; &foo.wrap:{ nextsame; say 'y' }; foo;
00:10 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«X␤»
00:10 TimToady except that wouldn't work either
00:10 ShimmerFairy AlexDaniel: it's actually because the 'callsame' is interpreted first
00:11 skids https://gist.github.com/skids/edac2cebdab5c6bd7641 # apply against GLR to get accurate error messages, for those hacking on it.
00:11 ShimmerFairy my guess is that multiple call/next* don't get used correctly.
00:12 ShimmerFairy (almost like using one of those functions exhausts the candidate list, or somethin')
00:12 cognominal A question about actions of match withing a <?before >. Please comment : https://gist.github.com/cogn​ominal/9067d157b484fb7703c7
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00:21 smls TimToady: That whole "hashy" part of the type hierarchy (EnumMap, Hash, PairMap, QuantHash & co) is kind of a mess.
00:21 smls TimToady: The design doc in question (S32::Containers) feels muddled in and of itself (things like suggesting that Hash indirectly inherits from Positional); and Rakudo's interpretation of that spec seems scrappy and adds additional weirdness.
00:22 smls Timtoady: Is there any chance some of those type names and their inheritance relationships can still be tweaked before 6.0?
00:22 smls Would be a shame if the elegant and well-thought-out post-GLR set of listy classes, is accompanied by a jumbled set of hashy classes, in the big release.
00:22 ShimmerFairy smls: I agree, when mapping out a plan for a tutorial series I'd like to write sometime, the Set/Bag/Mix stuff were given their own heading.
00:22 ShimmerFairy .oO(the Grand Associative Rejiggering -- GAR)
00:23 smls It would be very grand in terms of implementation effort neede, I think.
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00:24 smls Some renaming and rearranging mostly, while pretty much keeping the classes' current functionality.
00:24 smls s/would be/wouln't be/
00:25 ShimmerFairy smls: I've gotten the feeling that the associative stuff beyond Hash is some special deeper area, with the only likely-seen part being the Set operators. Part of that is likely the fact that those associative types aren't used as much (at least in what I do), but I wonder how much is up to their current design.
00:27 skids ahem.  ReHashing...
00:27 skids :-)
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00:28 ShimmerFairy I personally like that the R in GLR is slowly becoming whatever it can be :P (and I hope to help in making that the case)
00:29 AlexDaniel yea, finally
00:37 TEttinger Great List Rapoff
00:38 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 2280a8f | coke++ | log/MoarVM- (5 files):
00:38 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
00:38 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/2280a8f5cf
00:38 AlexDaniel i
00:39 AlexDaniel m: say index 'yy', 'y', -99999999999999999999999999999999​9999999999999999999999999999999;
00:39 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
00:39 AlexDaniel m: say index 'yy', 'y', -99999999999999999999999999999999​99999999999999999999999999999999;
00:39 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«1␤»
00:40 laouji joined #perl6
00:41 smls TimToady: I could dig into this stuff further and maybe come up with some form of RFC, but if there's no "political will" to change anything in that area anymore, I needn't bother.
00:42 laouji joined #perl6
00:45 BenGoldberg ShimmerFairy, GLR = (G)reat (L)ist whateve(R)
00:51 BenGoldberg m: .say for index('yy', 'y', -1e34), index('yy', 'y', -1e35);
00:51 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«Nil␤0␤»
00:52 AlexDaniel BenGoldberg: I've just submitted it: https://rt.perl.org/Public/​Bug/Display.html?id=125784
00:53 AlexDaniel but it would be great to know why does it happen
00:53 AlexDaniel m: say split('', "a;b;c").perl;
00:53 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«("", "a", ";", "b", ";", "c", "")␤»
00:54 AlexDaniel empty strings?
00:57 ShimmerFairy not sure if that's a bug or not, but if you're looking to split things into characters, you want .comb anyway.
00:57 AlexDaniel I'm looking for a bug
00:59 AlexDaniel .oO(maybe there is another function to do that)
01:00 * smls added simple type graphs to https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/116
01:01 AlexDaniel m: say split(//, "a;b;c").perl;
01:01 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/jP3UgDZBS5␤Null regex not allowed␤at /tmp/jP3UgDZBS5:1␤------> 3say split(//7⏏5, "a;b;c").perl;␤»
01:01 BenGoldberg On the one hand, the empty strings at the beginning and ending of the result do seem a bit odd.  On the other hand, the documentation for .split says that if the delimiter is a string, it will be searched for literally, and that empty chunks in the result will not be thrown away.
01:02 BenGoldberg m: say "a;b;c".split(qx//).perl
01:02 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«qx, qqx is disallowed in restricted setting␤  in sub restricted at src/RESTRICTED.setting:1␤  in sub QX at src/RESTRICTED.setting:11␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/8gYvMdK1vh:1␤␤»
01:02 BenGoldberg m: say "a;b;c".split(qr//).perl
01:02 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/vAMtG95IEU␤Unsupported use of qr for regex quoting; in Perl 6 please use rx//␤at /tmp/vAMtG95IEU:1␤------> 3say "a;b;c".split(qr7⏏5//).perl␤»
01:03 BenGoldberg m: say "a;b;c".split(rx//).perl; # stupid fingers.  They prefer to type perl5, even when they should know otherwise! ;)
01:03 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/U14xx6T9CK␤Null regex not allowed␤at /tmp/U14xx6T9CK:1␤------> 3say "a;b;c".split(rx/7⏏5/).perl; # stupid fingers.  They prefer ␤»
01:03 smls BenGoldberg: splitting into characters is what .comb is for
01:04 BenGoldberg m: say "a;b;c".split(rx/. ** 0..0/).perl;
01:04 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«("", "a", ";", "b", ";", "c", "")␤»
01:06 BenGoldberg smls, This isn't python.  There *is* more than one way to do it.
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01:13 ShimmerFairy For those null regexes, you wanted this, I believe:
01:13 ShimmerFairy m: say "a;b;c".split(/<?>/)
01:13 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT« a ; b ; c ␤»
01:13 ShimmerFairy m: say "a;b;c".split(/<?>/).perl
01:13 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«("", "a", ";", "b", ";", "c", "")␤»
01:14 AlexDaniel same empty strings
01:14 AlexDaniel hm
01:15 ShimmerFairy m: "a;b;c" ~~ m:g/<?>/; say $/».from
01:15 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«0 1 2 3 4 5␤»
01:16 ShimmerFairy <?> (and '' as well) match every string position, so .split causes a split at each of those positions. For positions 0 and 5, that means one side is the empty string
01:16 ShimmerFairy (keeping in mind that regex positions are _between_ characters, like a |-style typing cursor)
01:20 Juerd m: say "a;b;c".split(/<after .><before .>/).perl  # silly
01:20 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«("a", ";", "b", ";", "c")␤»
01:20 ShimmerFairy Juerd: heh, that's shorter than my version :P
01:20 AlexDaniel m: say split(';', 'a;b;c', :all).perl;
01:20 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«(("a", ";"), ("b", ";"), "c")␤»
01:20 ShimmerFairy m: say "a;b;c".split(/<!before ^> <?> <!before $>/).perl
01:20 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«("a", ";", "b", ";", "c")␤»
01:20 AlexDaniel list of lists?
01:21 AlexDaniel http://doc.perl6.org/routine/split#class_Cool has a different example
01:21 Juerd m: say "a;b;c".split(/<?>/).grep({ .length }).perl
01:21 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«Method 'length' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/dkIiW1euSp:1␤␤»
01:22 Juerd m: say "a;b;c".split(/<?>/).grep({ .chars }).perl
01:22 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«("a", ";", "b", ";", "c")␤»
01:22 Juerd m: say "a;b;c".split(/<?>/).grep(*.chars).perl
01:22 ShimmerFairy AlexDaniel: not sure if that's intended, but the way it is has a nice effect of giving you some information on what the split information is like
01:22 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«("a", ";", "b", ";", "c")␤»
01:22 ShimmerFairy m: say split(';', ';a;b;c;', :all).perl;
01:22 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«(("", ";"), ("a", ";"), ("b", ";"), ("c", ";"), "")␤»
01:23 ShimmerFairy the "cdr" of each list contains what you split on in front of the "car" of each list, if the last element is the empty string you know the string ended in a split-upon thing, and if the "car" of the first list is the empty string you know the string started in a split-upon thing
01:23 AlexDaniel ShimmerFairy: every odd element is a delimiter anyway, isn't it?
01:23 ShimmerFairy AlexDaniel: yes, especially once you flatten the list :)
01:24 AlexDaniel anyway, the example is wrong
01:24 AlexDaniel or the implementation is wrong
01:25 ShimmerFairy that's certain :) . But like all list-related things, there's a weird feeling (at least for me) of waiting for the looming GLR to come in and change how things work.
01:25 AlexDaniel uhhhh
01:25 AlexDaniel ok, then it's time to get some sleep
01:26 ShimmerFairy g'night, AlexDaniel o/
01:26 ShimmerFairy To be clear, there's nothing wrong with fixing either .split or the documentation, but (again, at least for me) the GLR means anything list-related has some extra uncertainty around it for the time being.
01:27 AlexDaniel that's ok, I wrote it down in my notes
01:27 AlexDaniel I'll check it later
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01:59 dalek rakudo/jvm-testing: 68623c9 | hoelzro++ | .travis.yml:
01:59 dalek rakudo/jvm-testing: Test JVM backend on Travis
01:59 dalek rakudo/jvm-testing: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/68623c92d3
02:04 ShimmerFairy Hm. When a string begins with a mark (category M) character, Perl 6's parser correctly parses that as a double-quote with a diacritic, for example. My question is, should delimiters be matched under :ignoremark (with the marks ignored perhaps then being picked up as being inside the delimited thing), should they be considered a distinct delimiter, or should they be left as they are?
02:04 ShimmerFairy m: say q[̈hello[̈
02:04 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«hello␤»
02:04 dalek rakudo/jvm-testing: 7247fe2 | hoelzro++ | .travis.yml:
02:04 dalek rakudo/jvm-testing: Temporarily remove branch restriction on Travis
02:04 dalek rakudo/jvm-testing: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7247fe26ee
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02:05 ShimmerFairy currently, something like a left bracket with an umlaut is seen as the kind of delimiter you have to repeat. The question is, should [̈hello]̈ work, which would require either :ignoremark or recognizing distinct "marked" delimiters, and if so should [̈̈hello] or [hello]̈ work too (which would only work with :ignoremark)?
02:06 ShimmerFairy A related question is if that initial combining umlaut should be taken as part of a string, or not.
02:07 ShimmerFairy m: say "@̈" ~~ /:ignoremark \@/    # important to note that :ignoremark doesn't work generally at the moment
02:07 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
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02:19 travis-ci Rakudo build failed. Rob Hoelz 'Temporarily remove branch restriction on Travis'
02:19 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/raku​do/rakudo/builds/75019582 https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/c​ompare/68623c92d332...7247fe26ee11
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02:28 dalek rakudo/nom: 68623c9 | hoelzro++ | .travis.yml:
02:28 dalek rakudo/nom: Test JVM backend on Travis
02:28 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/68623c92d3
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02:41 travis-ci Rakudo build failed. Rob Hoelz 'Test JVM backend on Travis'
02:41 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/raku​do/rakudo/builds/75021291 https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/c​ompare/7a29f16cb224...68623c92d332
02:41 travis-ci left #perl6
02:54 [Coke] ignoremark is for the content, not the delimeter, I thought.
02:57 ShimmerFairy [Coke]: well, I was talking for the Perl 6 parser, should it use ignoremark to match delimiters, or otherwise recognized Ps/Pe/Pi/Pf characters with marks as "marked" version of such, or neither.
02:58 ShimmerFairy *recognize
03:05 dalek roast: 9df21c3 | ShimmerFairy++ | fudge:
03:05 dalek roast: Fix 'eval' fudge to use EVAL() instead of eval()
03:05 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/9df21c32e5
03:05 dalek roast: 40ff238 | ShimmerFairy++ | S15-literals/ (2 files):
03:05 dalek roast: Add tests for Unicode literals
03:05 dalek roast:
03:05 dalek roast: This adds two new test files, one for identifiers and one for numbers.
03:05 dalek roast: The numbers one is fudged for rakudo for now, but the identifiers one
03:05 dalek roast: already passes for rakudo :) .
03:05 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/40ff23822f
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03:19 skids .tell jnthn https://gist.github.com/skids/edac2cebdab5c6bd7641 # did not get far -- but hey, actual error messages do help, right?
03:19 yoleaux skids: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
03:21 [Coke] I would argue it probably shouldn't match any marks on quoting chars
03:21 [Coke] (delims)
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03:24 ShimmerFairy The minimum case would be an error that you started the contents with an M category character (that should definitely be the error if you start a variable name with an M category char, for example), I just wonder if there isn't a nicer solution than giving up so quickly.
03:26 ShimmerFairy Since you can start a string with a mark by using \x or \c, at least for strings I don't think it's necessary to consider the mark as the first codepoint of content.
03:30 ShimmerFairy I personally think it'd be neat to be able to use, say, umlauted braces for embedded comments and such, but it's certainly not the only solution :) .
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03:52 ugexe while its a good idea to travis test jvm, it probably does not help our image to have a prominent `build failing` badge due because of a secondary VM target
03:55 ugexe i would suggest an allowed failure for JVM, as seen here: https://github.com/ugexe/zef/b​lob/master/.travis.yml#L8-L10
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05:01 TimToady .tell jnthn maybe it's not either/or; perhaps Slip is a role that can be composed with Nil?
05:01 yoleaux TimToady: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
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06:21 [Tux] test             50000    43.501    43.120
06:21 [Tux] test-t           50000    42.463    42.082
06:22 [Tux] HLL still unfixed
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06:54 Sgeo m: say "a".index("b")
06:54 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
06:55 Sgeo I'd ask why not redefine truthiness to be definedness, but False is defined and falsey and really, really needs to be both
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07:00 RabidGravy marning!
07:00 Sgeo hi
07:00 Sgeo I should be asleep
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07:22 RabidGravy Boo! it appears the RT#125408 has come back (and the canary test does fail)
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07:44 lizmat smls: re http://irclog.perlgeek.de/p​erl6/2015-08-11#i_11036392
07:45 lizmat it should be noted that part of the "mess" regarding Hash and friends, is caused by the fact that no backend has an implementation of object hashes
07:46 lizmat the spec assumes all hashes are object hashes, and the ones with Str are a special case of it
07:46 lizmat in reality, it's the other way around: all hashes have Str for keys, object hashes needed to be bolted on to that
07:46 lizmat personally, I don't think this is going to be fixable before Christmas
07:47 jnthn lizmat: I don't think that's the "mess" he's refering to, fwiw. That's more an implementation detail.
07:47 yoleaux 10 Aug 2015 23:18Z <b2gills> jnthn: Any.join should have an optional or default separator
07:47 yoleaux 03:19Z <skids> jnthn: https://gist.github.com/skids/edac2cebdab5c6bd7641 # did not get far -- but hey, actual error messages do help, right?
07:47 yoleaux 05:01Z <TimToady> jnthn: maybe it's not either/or; perhaps Slip is a role that can be composed with Nil?
07:47 jnthn .tell TimToady Slip is just a subclass of List, and it really needs to be that way... I guess Nil could be a role maybe...
07:47 yoleaux jnthn: I'll pass your message to TimToady.
07:48 jnthn lizmat: I think it's more the EnumMap and PairMap types
07:48 jnthn tbh I'd just rename EnumMap to Map
07:48 jnthn There's nothing enum about it
07:48 lizmat well, as I'm more familiar with QuantHash and anything below it, I agree it's a mess
07:48 lizmat but it works :-)
07:48 jnthn On the inside, or the outside?
07:49 ShimmerFairy Yeah, it's specifically the fact that non-Hash Associative things in core are a bit more mysterious than most core types :)
07:49 ShimmerFairy (to the average user)
07:49 lizmat jnthn: on the inside
07:49 jnthn lizmat: Right, I think smls is talking about on the outside.
07:49 jnthn lizmat: I'm not too concerned about the insides wrt 6.christmas; insides we're free to fix down the line. :)
07:50 lizmat indeed, that's why I'm not too worried either :-)
07:50 jnthn I think the Set/Bag/Mix stuff at least got well thought out at some point
07:50 lizmat yeah, but the implementation does not match the spec wrt to hierarchy
07:50 jnthn But yeah, what is PairMap for is one good question, and why does EnumMap have the word Enum in it and why is an immutable Pair an Enum? :)
07:51 jnthn It's really confusing because they have nothing to do with the enum keyword.
07:51 lizmat well, I implemented PairMap because it hadn't been done yet and was reatively easy
07:51 ShimmerFairy I think the Set/Bag/MixHash types would do better if 'Hash' were instead a more descriptive name for the fact that it's mutable. (But maybe it already is and it's my fault I'm not familiar enough with the word 'Hash' :P)
07:52 lizmat SetMut BagMut MixMut  :-)
07:52 jnthn ShimmerFairy: I think the quoting stuff's behavior is consistent with an NFG world view. I don't have any desire to make quote parsing more complex. In an NFG world you basically never see something of mark category unless you specifically write \c[COMBINING CUTE ABOVE] or whatever.
07:53 jnthn Well, once you know %h is called a Hash (and you know it's mutable) then *Hash is pretty nicely indicative of "it's a Hash with some different semantics".
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07:54 jnthn Hash is just from the computer science name for the data structure ("hash table")
07:54 ShimmerFairy Fair enough on Hash, but approaching it from the angle of "I know what Set/Bag/Mix are, what are these *Hash versions?", it's a bit less obvious :)
07:54 jnthn True, though we can document that, and it's predictable given its a productive suffix. :)
07:55 ShimmerFairy (but I don't doubt that "I know what Hash is, what are these Set/Bag/MixHash things?" is an angle that leads to a more immediate understanding)
07:56 ShimmerFairy jnthn: and on NFG, the non-ignoremark idea would mean somehow carrying the Ps/Pe/Pi/Pf info from the base codepoint through to the composed thing, which would be very tricky I imagine.
07:57 jnthn ShimmerFairy: Is there any real reason it can't just stay as it is?
07:57 jnthn ShimmerFairy: I don't see the problem at all. If you use one of a certain set of graphemes that have an opening/closing pair, you get the opener/closer semantics.
07:57 ShimmerFairy jnthn: no, not really. I just thought it'd be neat if it didn't error out, but what not-an-error looks like is admittedly interesting.
07:58 jnthn ShimmerFairy: If you use any other grapheme that's acceptable as a quoting character then you get the identical closer thing. If you put a mark on a [ it's a different grapheme.
07:58 JimmyZ so I am not the only one who thinks why EnumMap has Enum :)
08:01 ShimmerFairy Theoretically it would possibly look like /$<open>=(<C/ \" <:Mark>* />) ~ $<open> [stuff]/ to parse a double-quote with funny marks, for example (using those "grapheme exploders" in S15 that are a bit of small extra feature)
08:01 dalek rakudo/nom: 14939e3 | lizmat++ | src/core/Cool.pm:
08:01 dalek rakudo/nom: Handle out-of-bounds pos in index/rindex better
08:01 dalek rakudo/nom:
08:01 dalek rakudo/nom: Fixes #125784
08:01 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/14939e39d2
08:02 ShimmerFairy jnthn: I at least hope for descriptive "misplaced Mark character" message somewhere in the distant future, for things like  my $̈starts-with-umlaut  ; (where you accidentally gave perl6 a "dollar sign with umlaut" grapheme)
08:04 dalek roast: 128708a | lizmat++ | S32-list/minmax.t:
08:04 dalek roast: Fix number of tests to run
08:04 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/128708af7f
08:07 * ShimmerFairy wonders if the other Great Compiler Writers ever find themselves with unstaged changes across all three of MVM, nqp, and rakudo, or if she's just bad at git-ing properly :P
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08:09 arnsholt I haven't worked much on Moar, but a bunch of interlocking changes on both NQP and Rakudo, sure
08:11 dalek Inline-Perl5: 85c5641 | (Stefan Seifert)++ | / (4 files):
08:11 dalek Inline-Perl5: New sugar for v6::inline constructors
08:11 dalek Inline-Perl5:
08:11 dalek Inline-Perl5: v6-inline got renamed to v6::inline, because perl does not support
08:11 dalek Inline-Perl5: import lists with the v6-inline parse hack.
08:11 dalek Inline-Perl5:
08:11 dalek Inline-Perl5: You can now use v6::inline constructors => [qw(create)]; to
08:11 dalek Inline-Perl5: automatically get a constructor called "create" that wraps a method of
08:11 dalek Inline-Perl5: the same name you inherited and sets everything up, so you get an object
08:11 dalek Inline-Perl5: of the Perl 6 subclass v6::inline created.
08:11 dalek Inline-Perl5:
08:11 dalek Inline-Perl5: For example in a DBIx::Class::Result class, you normally inherit
08:11 dalek Inline-Perl5: constructors called "new" and "inflate_result". You can write your
08:11 dalek Inline-Perl5: Result class in Perl 6 by adding:
08:11 dalek Inline-Perl5:
08:11 dalek Inline-Perl5: use v6::inline constructors => [qw(new inflate_result)];
08:11 dalek Inline-Perl5: method foo() { ... }
08:11 dalek Inline-Perl5: review: https://github.com/niner/Inl​ine-Perl5/commit/85c56414d1
08:11 dalek roast: e29df31 | lizmat++ | S32-str/ (2 files):
08:11 dalek roast: Add tests for #125784
08:11 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/e29df31538
08:12 ShimmerFairy Yeah, I think need to go back, make some branches, and make some incremental commits before the size of the changes get too out of hand :)
08:13 ShimmerFairy (It's funny to think "oh, I'll fix this problem!" and within two seconds you trace it down to the virtual machines :P)
08:13 RabidGravy yeah, I find that frequent commits make merging upstream changes less fraught
08:13 lizmat afk&
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08:16 ShimmerFairy I think it'll help immensely with the fact that just what I've been doing tonight has really annoyed me in the part where I very frequently switch between three repos, and thus also makes me worry I'll forget what I've done :)
08:17 * jnthn has a tab on his terminal for each, always consistently ordered :)
08:17 g5 joined #perl6
08:18 ShimmerFairy jnthn: I had to upgrade to two tabs dedicated to P6 work, so I could at least have one on MVM :)  (I've got 10 tabs total)
08:18 dakkar joined #perl6
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08:19 travis-ci Rakudo build failed. Elizabeth Mattijsen 'Handle out-of-bounds pos in index/rindex better
08:19 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/raku​do/rakudo/builds/75049615 https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/c​ompare/68623c92d332...14939e39d245
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09:14 dalek Inline-Perl5: 6b39211 | (Stefan Seifert)++ | lib/Inline/Perl5.pm6:
09:14 dalek Inline-Perl5: Avoid creating circular inheritance hierarchies in v6::extend
09:14 dalek Inline-Perl5: review: https://github.com/niner/Inl​ine-Perl5/commit/6b392113b4
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09:31 itz mornin'
09:35 smls hi itz
09:37 RabidGravy mornin itz
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10:08 dalek doc: f05cce9 | lizmat++ | lib/Type/Supply.pod:
10:08 dalek doc: Document signal()
10:08 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f05cce98bd
10:09 smls "is SuperClass", what's that?
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10:10 smls in https://github.com/perl6/doc/b​lob/master/lib/Type/Supply.pod
10:10 smls m: say SuperClass
10:10 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/V6gzCkBc4M␤Undeclared name:␤    SuperClass used at line 1␤␤»
10:11 jkva joined #perl6
10:11 jnthn wtf is SuperClass?
10:12 jnthn Like SuperMan, but it runs methods instead of flies?
10:12 smls git blame's moritz
10:13 jnthn :)
10:13 jnthn I suspect it was a copy-pasto
10:13 smls something like that
10:13 jnthn Or a template fill-out failure
10:13 jnthn I'd just remove it :)
10:13 smls ok
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10:15 dalek doc: 20e6c88 | smls++ | lib/Type/Supply.pod:
10:15 dalek doc: remove left-over fragment from type page template
10:15 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/20e6c882eb
10:16 smls jnthn: You were right, it's part of the template at https://github.com/perl6/doc​/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md
10:17 RabidGravy lizmat, there appears to a few places in the Supply.pod where "elements" is used rather than "events" is that just accidental?
10:18 smls I suppose events are the elements of a Supply?
10:18 smls Though "events" is clearer
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10:19 RabidGravy and used most of the way through the document, it's just the methods lizmat added the other day
10:23 jnthn I wonder whether we'll want to call the things you get from working through a Seq "elements" or not.
10:24 smls "values" always works
10:24 jnthn Yeah :)
10:24 jnthn For both
10:24 jnthn Maybe we can use elements for talking about actual storage slots in a reified data structure, and values for things "on the move"
10:24 jnthn Using values for Seq and Supply kinda emphasizes the duality
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10:25 ShimmerFairy jnthn: have you figured out the Seq.perl question yet? My first though is something like  "{self.VAR.name}.list.Seq"  , depending on if you can convert to a Seq and if you can get the containing variable's name like that :P
10:27 dalek doc: 0bcc5fb | RabidGravy++ | lib/Type/Supply.pod:
10:27 dalek doc: change a few 'element' to 'event'
10:27 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/0bcc5fb2dc
10:27 jnthn ShimmerFairy: It's a tricky one. If somebody does @foo.map(*.bar).perl then they might like to see the results...
10:27 RabidGravy I changed most of them
10:27 RabidGravy changed one to 'items' as that made more sense in the context
10:27 jnthn ShimmerFairy: We can always self.list.perl ~ '.Seq' maybe..
10:28 jnthn ShimmerFairy: But then .perl'ing a Seq will deplete the iterator
10:29 ShimmerFairy jnthn: as long as you can construct a Seq from a list, then Seq.perl might be one of the rare .perl methods (and those like it) that does more than simply construct a string, by constructing a string _and_ making itself seem as though it were untouched :)
10:29 jnthn ShimmerFairy: So your efforts to debug could give you a problem
10:29 jnthn Yeah, we'd have to maybe make a clone of the iterator...
10:29 smls .gist can just do .list.gist, right?
10:29 jnthn smls: Yeah
10:29 ShimmerFairy jnthn: oh yeah, duh. The simpler solution would be to clone itself and deplete the clone :P
10:31 lizmat RabidGravy: I asked yesterday already...
10:31 lizmat what to call something generically that has been emitted to a Supply
10:32 lizmat (please note that some of the verbage predates the use of "emit()")
10:32 RabidGravy :)
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10:32 jnthn lizmat: Yeah. Today I really do wonder if we should just talk about values, flowing through the chain of supplies.
10:32 jnthn lizmat: Or being pushed through, as opposed to a Seq where they're being pulled through :)
10:33 lizmat "values" works for me
10:34 jnthn Maybe it's 'cus I did the guts of both, but post-GLR the duality between Seq and Supply is a lot more obvious.
10:34 Begi joined #perl6
10:35 Begi In Perl5, we have system('command'); What can I use with Perl 6 ?
10:35 ShimmerFairy Maybe it's because I've been around Perl 6 too long, but I'm really trying to come up with a cute name for what Seqs return :P (not familiar enough with Supplys to try the same)
10:36 jnthn ShimmerFairy: When you iterate them? Just values... :)
10:36 RabidGravy it's conceptually a bit convoluted with Supply because emit can be thought of as creating an event and the value is passed to all the "event handlers"
10:37 tadzik Begi: run() or shell()
10:37 smls Begi:  run('prog', 'arg1', 'arg2')
10:37 smls see http://doc.perl6.org/type/Proc
10:37 jnthn RabidGravy: Do you think it's conceptually a bit convoluted that .map returns a value that is passed to the thing that wanted a value? :)
10:37 Begi Ok, thanks !
10:37 tadzik Begi: or http://doc.perl6.org/routine/shell :)
10:38 jnthn RabidGravy: In both cases you're got code producing a value and some infrastructure making it end up in the right place...
10:40 RabidGravy well yes but that's a generalisation
10:40 RabidGravy :)
10:41 smls jnthn: Is it just me, or does Channel start to look more like a low-level/special-purpose type now that Supply is really comming into its own?
10:42 azawawi joined #perl6
10:42 azawawi hi
10:43 jnthn smls: Channels are more about moving data between threads, whereas supplies are more about coordinating flows of data that may originate on many threads, but want actor semantics over the pipeline
10:44 azawawi any idea how to generate POD/markdown documentation on github repos? i.e. to provide inline documentation for module Foo
10:45 ShimmerFairy You can use Pod6 to document stuff, of course, but I don't think github does anything with it (I'm not sure if it does anything with POD5-formatted stuff, even)
10:45 azawawi sort of like metacpan (e.g. https://metacpan.org/pod/distr​ibution/Plack/script/plackup) but on github
10:46 azawawi i think they now support P5 POD https://github.com/github/marku​p/blob/master/README.md#markups
10:46 ShimmerFairy No, I'm sure github offers nothing like that, aside from however you format your README files :)
10:48 ShimmerFairy (and other files purely in supported formatting styles, that is)
10:48 leont Basically, they seem willing to support any format if you write the implementation
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10:49 ShimmerFairy Pod6 would require either making github run Perl 6 (which might take some time yet), or for some brave soul to attempt writing a Pod6 formatter in some other language :)
10:50 lizmat hmmm... maybe we should change Supply.batch(:elems) to Supply.batch(:nrofvalues) ?
10:51 leont :by ?
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10:52 leont nrofvalues seems to big and isn't really a word
10:52 lizmat eh, no, that's already used with sort and friends
10:52 lizmat yeah, I know, that was just to get the brain cells of everybody reading going :-)
10:52 ShimmerFairy lizmat: my first inclination would be :valno , but perhaps not in something beyond my personal projects :)
10:52 lizmat I mean: :values is ambiguous as well
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10:53 jnthn Well, given batch builds a list of things to emit that has that number of elems, elems is kinda fine.
10:53 ShimmerFairy .oO(obviously it should be  Supply.batch(:#values)  )
10:53 jnthn Provided you appreciate it's talking about the number of elems you'll have in the resulting list. :)
10:53 lizmat yes, it is
10:54 jnthn .batch(:5elems) # I want batches of 5 elements :)
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10:54 lizmat that's how it works  :-)
10:54 jnthn Right, I'm saying I think it works OK :)
10:55 ShimmerFairy heh, totally forgot that :5values (for example) would suddenly make it not ambiguous :)
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11:01 smls Does anyone know what the story behind the 'EnumMap' and 'Enum' class names is? (Seeing how they have nothing to do with the 'enum' keyword, right?)
11:03 azawawi ShimmerFairy: found it :) https://github.com/github/markup/bl​ob/master/lib/github/markups.rb#L46
11:03 azawawi ShimmerFairy: we could add p6 support to github easily :)
11:03 azawawi ShimmerFairy: s/p6/p6 pod/
11:04 ShimmerFairy Not so simple, because P6 unlike P5 is not on every UNIX server on the planet (yet) :)
11:04 azawawi damn
11:05 * azawawi looks up rakudo package @ debian
11:05 ShimmerFairy so you'd either have to convince the people at github to install rakudo (so they can use Pod::To::HTML for P6 Pod), or write a Pod6 converter in some other language.
11:05 ShimmerFairy (And honestly, P6's Pod::To::HTML needs some cleanup before I'd be willing to recommend a big site like github to use it)
11:05 lizmat m: say (enum <a b c>).WHAT   # smls
11:05 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«(EnumMap)␤»
11:08 azawawi ShimmerFairy: true
11:08 smls lizmat: Interesting. So it's just *named* enums that that loose all public connection to that type?
11:08 smls m: enum A <a b c>; say A ~~ EnumMap; A.^mro;
11:08 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«False␤»
11:08 smls m: enum A <a b c>; say A ~~ EnumMap; say A.^mro;
11:08 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«False␤(A) (Int) (Cool) (Any) (Mu)␤»
11:09 ShimmerFairy The two main issues I have with Pod::To::HTML, to be clear, are 1) that embedded stylesheet (I don't think ::HTML should be embedding a default stylesheet, esp. with no way to turn it off), and 2) the handling of C<=item>s
11:09 * azawawi wonders if Pod::To::HTML can generate old p5 pod
11:10 azawawi Pod6::To::Pod
11:10 ShimmerFairy Nope, if you want that you'd be looking for Pod::To::POD5 :)
11:10 smls m: enum A <a b c>; say A.enums.WHAT
11:10 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«(Hash)␤»
11:11 azawawi ShimmerFairy: hmmm use Pod::To::Markdown  to generate github markdown files :)
11:12 ShimmerFairy I'd rather not support the use of Markdown when we should be using the superior Pod6, though :P
11:12 azawawi ShimmerFairy: frankly i dont see why (for simple cases) we need Pod6 instead of Markdown :)
11:12 azawawi ShimmerFairy: you're typing less with markdown
11:13 ShimmerFairy In reality I don't mind if you use markdown for stuff, I just find a bit disappointing that more Perl 6 stuff (especially the _core_ Perl 6 stuff) isn't using Pod6 :(
11:13 ShimmerFairy *find it
11:15 dalek doc: 214baa0 | lizmat++ | lib/Type/Supply.pod:
11:15 dalek doc: Override previous changes
11:15 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/214baa0b17
11:16 azawawi ShimmerFairy: take this example https://github.com/sergot/http-useragent#infodoc. sergot++ is doing an excellent job to make his modules documented. Note the @L<line-number> links which can change when edits the files
11:16 azawawi ShimmerFairy: s/edits/one edits/
11:18 ShimmerFairy I don't see why you couldn't link to line numbers like that with Pod L<> codes
11:21 dalek roast: 3f1a7a0 | lizmat++ | S17-supply/c (2 files):
11:21 dalek roast: Fix typos
11:21 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/3f1a7a0eab
11:21 azawawi ShimmerFairy: he was trying to link to actually pod documentation which if it was a seperate .pod file then github would render it into a nice readable HTML document.
11:21 azawawi ShimmerFairy: .pod or .markdown that is
11:23 azawawi ShimmerFairy: s/to actually/to/    # sleepy a bit :)
11:24 azawawi so what's the best practise inline pod, pod at the end of a module or pod seperated from code?
11:24 ShimmerFairy I think after improvements to Pod::To::HTML and at best the September release, we might be able to convince github to be an early player in Perl 6's domination of computers everywhere, just like Perl 5 :)
11:25 ShimmerFairy azawawi: I think the best procedure would be to put description with #|{} or #={} (forget which does which), and have more detailed info in a separate section.
11:25 azawawi ShimmerFairy: do you have an actual example?
11:25 ShimmerFairy If github doesn't want to a doxygen-like thing of processing code for documentation, that's not your fault :)
11:26 ShimmerFairy azawawi: not off-hand, no
11:26 ShimmerFairy I definitely feel like Pod6 has suffered from a lack of widespread usage :/
11:26 azawawi ShimmerFairy: that's the thing that worries you in Pod::To::HTML https://github.com/perl6/Pod-To-HTML​/blob/master/lib/Pod/To/HTML.pm#L106 ?
11:27 azawawi simple to use and remember always works :)
11:27 ShimmerFairy azawawi: yes, but that's simple to fix (someone just has to do it :P). The bigger issue is the fact that =item handling is broken (look at the source of any converted HTML with lists, you see the items wrapped in two <li><li>...</li></li> codes, IIRC)
11:28 smls lizmat: Do you also know why EnumMap treats it's entries as Pair's, rather than Enum's as its name suggests? Whereas the Set, Bag and Mix *do* use Enum?
11:28 ShimmerFairy And you want to use =item2 ? Forget about that making sense in the rendered HTML :P
11:28 lizmat not sure, but Enums in Set/Bag/Mix are used because they're immutable
11:29 azawawi ShimmerFairy: just looking at the code, we should have used a Template::Mojo or Template::Mustache and provided the API user a way to define his own templates, right?
11:29 ShimmerFairy ? I don't think templates factor into this.
11:30 smls lizmat: Couldn't one also make an immutable Pair by binding its .value to a non-container?
11:30 smls After all, Pair is already immutable in the sense that EnumMap and Parcel are immutable - you can not add or remove keys.
11:31 azawawi ShimmerFairy: if you're converting X into Y, Generator classes/templates make it easier a bit to override some behavior
11:31 smls It's just that Pair itemizes its value by default
11:31 azawawi ShimmerFairy: please take a look at this ugly hack https://github.com/github/markup/bl​ob/master/lib/github/markups.rb#L47 to see what i mean
11:31 ShimmerFairy Sure, but for Pod it's all about the Pod::To modules, and it's up to them to provide various module-specific options
11:33 lizmat smls: the specifics escape me now, but it used to be possible to change an immutable Set/Bag/Mix when .pairs did not return Enums
11:33 smls lizmat: Alternatively, would anything suffer if Pair behaved like enum does now (no forced itemization), and Hash.pairs just happens to return Pair's with an item container as value?
11:33 lizmat not sure whether you can somehow do that with EnumMap now as well
11:33 lizmat smls: I have no idea
11:37 itz what's the status of Native Shaped Arrays?
11:37 lizmat not yet in shape
11:37 lizmat but pretty native
11:39 itz ha! nice summary! quite stealable for some slides
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11:54 dalek doc: 92f44b4 | lizmat++ | lib/Type/Supply.pod:
11:54 dalek doc: Another batch of Supply methods being documented
11:54 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/92f44b404a
11:59 jnthn itz: I postponed the shaped stuff at Perl 6 level to post-GLR
12:00 jnthn itz: However, the MoarVM and JVM backends now have support for compact storage of shaped native arrays
12:00 jnthn itz: So the guts are prepared
12:00 itz ok thanks
12:01 jnthn But then I had to switch track and worry about the GLR
12:02 nine I guess all in all GLR >> NSA
12:03 jnthn Well, yeah, I kinda expected the GLR woulda been done by the time I reached shaped arrays
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12:05 jnthn At some point FROGGS was like "jnthn can't do all 3 of NFG, GLR, and NSA". Apparently he can. :P
12:05 itz I still parse GLR as looking like a railway name so switching tracks looks appropriate
12:05 jnthn :D
12:05 jnthn Great List Railway
12:08 arnsholt Speaking of NFG: For implementing it on JVM, I assume one necessary part of it is replacing most occurences of java.lang.String in NQP/JVM with our own NFGString (or whatever it ends up being called) and a bunch of NFG-related ops. Are there more major parts involved?
12:09 jnthn arnsholt: Also implementing the NFG algorithm, but that's mostly just porting
12:09 jnthn arnsholt: Question is if we have enough of the UCD available to us
12:09 jnthn arnsholt: Certainly we lag behind on JVM in various areas of Unicode support 'cus we don't have all the info
12:09 jnthn arnsholt: So it's worth asking if we want to ditch the JVM's existing normalization support and so on and just implement the whole stack like on MoarVM.
12:10 arnsholt Yeah, that makes sense
12:10 jnthn arnsholt: The lock-free-readable synthetic resolution Trie should port easily.
12:10 jnthn ...wow, that was a lot of buzzwords :P
12:12 lizmat afk until much later today&
12:13 brrt see you
12:19 ShimmerFairy jnthn: where does Moar lag behind JVM on Unicode support? (At first glance I'd guess anything to do with the UniHan database)
12:21 jnthn ShimmerFairy: Nowhere that the Perl 6 spectest suite exercises :D
12:21 jnthn ShimmerFairy: I dunno if they get the SpecialCasing.txt stuff right on the JVM.
12:22 * arnsholt makes an NQP issue for NFG on JVM
12:22 jnthn ShimmerFairy: If so, JVM would be ahead of Moar there.
12:22 ShimmerFairy ah yeah, I saw the XXXs in ucd2c.pl, those are other obvious possible areas :)
12:22 jnthn Aye
12:22 jnthn But I think we provide much broader access to the UCD on Moar.
12:23 ShimmerFairy jnthn: It just surprised me that you said the JVM was ahead in spots; I was kinda under the impression that Moar was one of the more Unicode-supporting VMs out there :)
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12:24 ShimmerFairy jnthn: that's true. As a small example, the code I've added to Moar locally (to handle unicode numerals, if you're interested) would be slightly nicer if UPV_Nd wasn't a 'static' variable :)
12:25 jnthn ShimmerFairy: No, I meant JVM is what's lagging behind :)
12:25 jnthn Though I see now I was very confusing in how I wrote it.
12:26 ShimmerFairy jnthn: ah, I thought you were referring to The JVM®, not the nqp implementation on it :)
12:26 jnthn ShimmerFairy: To be clear: there's a bunch of Unicode tests in spectest that we pass on Moar, but not on JVM.
12:26 jnthn And I don't just mean NFG ones.
12:27 ShimmerFairy jnthn: basically I parsed "we lag behind on JVM" as "MVM lags behind compared to JVM" instead of "our nqp implementation is lacking on JVM"
12:28 leont JVM's idea of Unicode is a bit disappointing (surrogates…)
12:28 jnthn ShimmerFairy: Yeah, I don't think I coulda worded it more ambiguously if I'd tried. Sorry.
12:28 ShimmerFairy jnthn: I'd be interested in trying to add NFG support to nqp-j, but I'm scared there's a reason why even you hadn't got it working on there :)
12:29 DrForr JVM hamstrung itself when it decided that Unicode codepoints fit in 16 bits.
12:29 jnthn ShimmerFairy: Oh, the reason isn't technical, but project management.
12:29 ShimmerFairy No worries about the parsing issue, if only English were one-pass parsed... :P
12:29 jnthn ShimmerFairy: It's not critical path for 6.christmas.
12:30 jnthn ShimmerFairy: I don't think it'd be too awful to get it working on JVM, just a lot of grunt work.
12:30 ShimmerFairy DrForr: _Unicode_ hamstrung itself when it give UTF-16 (or was it UCS-2?) surrogate code points, instead of the extensible encoding system UTF-8 gives :)
12:30 leont JSON has similar issues due to Javascript inheriting the "let's expose the 16-bit implementation" because \u only accepts 4 hexadecimals, so you have to encode the individual surrogate pairs of a higher plane character
12:30 ShimmerFairy .oO(The Fight for U+110000!)
12:31 jnthn MoarVM was prepared to eventually do NFG from the start, so it wasn't actually a pain to integrate it when the time came.
12:31 leont ShimmerFairy: it doesn't help that the surrogates aren't at the end of the range, so UTF-16 is the only major encoding where character point sort isn't equal to binary-value sort
12:31 jnthn (The VM already had separate "I want graphs" and "I want codes" iterators for over a year before the NFG work started)
12:32 ShimmerFairy leont: I recall when I set up my local mediawiki thing and got to the database part, I specifically chose the option that didn't limit me to a pre-surrogates idea of Unicode :P
12:32 ShimmerFairy m: say "Perl 6.\c[CHRISTMAS TREE]"
12:32 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«Perl 6.🎄␤»
12:34 ShimmerFairy jnthn: I'll see how familiar I can get with handling Unicode implementations, and if things go well I might be able to try NFG on nqp-j. jnthn++ for getting the hard work (NFG at all) done, but I'd still like to help how I can with the other Unicode-related stuff :)
12:38 jnthn ++ShimmerFairy
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12:39 ShimmerFairy esp. the non-Str string types, they seem to be lacking at the moment. (The Buf-like nature they display as when you 'say' them was unexpected, but I think it's appropriate ☺)
12:42 jnthn Well, if you actually want to write the contents to an IO handle you .write($the-buf)
12:44 cognominal_ joined #perl6
12:45 smls m: say Hash.HOW
12:45 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«Method 'gist' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW+{<anon>}'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/xWOD9rjVJ2:1␤␤»
12:46 smls ^^ is the +{<anon>} what makes typed Hashes work even though it's not a ParametricRoleGroupHOW ?
12:47 ShimmerFairy As I recall Array and Hash implement their own ^parameterize method
12:48 jnthn smls: Yeah, see the method ShimmerFairy just referred to
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12:52 smls Why doesn't ClassHOW implement that method so custom collection types can use it?
12:53 cibs_ joined #perl6
12:53 jnthn smls: Why can't they today?
12:54 ShimmerFairy I've also wondered why classes can't be parameterized (without implementing a metamodel method), but I also wonder if there's an interest in leaving that to just roles.
12:54 jnthn smls: The parameterize method in Array doesn't contain any nqp::ops. It's normal Perl 6 code.
12:55 smls ok
12:55 jnthn ShimmerFairy: Roles and classes are rather radically different in how they're compiled.
12:56 ShimmerFairy I would imagine :)
12:56 jnthn A role is a template that you derive concrete things from.
12:56 skids joined #perl6
12:56 jnthn That's why you can't augment a role.
12:56 ShimmerFairy Ah, so parameterization is more natural to roles, because they're by design abstract thingies.
12:57 jnthn Yeah, parameterization and augmentation are rather incompatible.
12:59 jnthn So basically, anybody who says classes not being parametric is arbitrary just hasn't thought hard enough about things. :P
12:59 smls m: class A does Buf[uint8] {  }; class B is A;
12:59 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤P6opaque: missing attribute protocol in compose␤»
12:59 smls ^^ is this error due to something specific that Buf does, or is that not allowed in general?
12:59 ShimmerFairy jnthn: I didn't think it was arbitrary, just that the reason was unknown to me :)
12:59 smls i.e. composing a parametric role into a class
13:00 jnthn m: class A does Buf[uint8] {  }; say 'ok'
13:00 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤P6opaque: missing attribute protocol in compose␤»
13:00 jnthn m: class A does Buf[uint8] is repr('VMArray') {  }; say 'ok'
13:00 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«ok␤»
13:00 smls ah
13:01 smls thanks
13:01 jnthn Buf really wants a low-level array type
13:01 jnthn It's specific to Blob/Buf
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13:04 smls jnthn: When you say "parameterization and augmentation are incompatible", is that just the run-time augmentation done with `augment`, or also the way classes are assembled at compile-time?
13:06 jnthn smls: augment actually runs at compile time, but it may be a compile time other than that of the original compilation unit declaring the class.
13:06 jnthn smls: The point is that when you concretize a role, that involves making copies of a bunch of things.
13:08 jnthn (Which are then "filled in" in various ways)
13:11 smls ok
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13:18 smls m: say Hash ~~ Cool; say Pair ~~ Cool;
13:18 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«True␤False␤»
13:18 smls ^^ Anyone know the reason behind this?
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13:38 RabidGravy boom!
13:43 khw joined #perl6
14:08 tony-o m: say Pair.^mro
14:08 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«(Pair) (Enum) (Any) (Mu)␤»
14:08 tony-o m: say Hash.^mro
14:08 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«(Hash) (EnumMap) (Iterable) (Cool) (Any) (Mu)␤»
14:09 tony-o m: say Iterable.^mro
14:09 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«(Iterable) (Any) (Mu)␤»
14:09 tony-o smls: because Pair isn't an EnumMap
14:10 tony-o or Cool
14:10 smls I meant, the conceptual reason behind why Hash is Cool but Pair isn't.
14:10 smls In particular, why Hash is Cool.
14:11 jnthn Cool is really a strongly typed way of achieving weak typing.
14:12 smls And I see the benefit of that when it comes to strings + number.
14:12 jnthn It gets you operations that you can sensibly do provided you can coerce to a number and a string.
14:12 nine That's so cool
14:12 jnthn This is in part a hangover from Perl 5 doing so (and the fact that is convenient)
14:13 smls m: say Cool.^methods.sort(*.name)
14:13 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«EVAL IO Int Num Rat Real UInt abs acos acosec acosech acosh acotan acotanh asec asech asin asinh atan atan2 atanh ceiling chars chomp chop chr chrs cis codes comb conj cos cosec cosech cosh cotan cotanh ends-with exp flip floor fmt index indices lc lines l…»
14:13 jnthn A possible reason Pair doesn't get to be Cool might be there was no Pair in Perl 5
14:13 smls I don't think I'd want to call any of those on a Hash
14:13 pecastro joined #perl6
14:16 tinyblak joined #perl6
14:16 smls jnthn: Well, you can't really call most of those routines on a hash in Perl 5 either, due to aggressive auto-flattening.
14:17 smls Granted, you *can* use arithmetic ops on a hash in Perl 5 to treat it as its number of elements
14:23 smls But with prefix:<+> making that very easy already in Perl 6, that seems like a weak justification to keep it in Cool (while other things that also have an .elemes, such as Set, aren't).
14:23 brrt joined #perl6
14:33 tadzik wow, only 4 open PRs
14:33 tadzik has everyone cancelled thirs? :o
14:34 domidumont joined #perl6
14:35 RabidGravy they get superceded, re-done. things get fixed :)
14:36 tadzik so: why does testing stuff require Panda::DepTracker?
14:38 RabidGravy it doesn't, but making the META.info via Panda::Bundler.bundle does
14:40 tadzik right, I'm wondering why Panda::Tester needed changing
14:40 tadzik hehe: https://github.com/tadzik/​Typed-Subroutines/issues/4
14:41 hoelzro good morning, #perl6!
14:42 tadzik good morning hoelzro!
14:42 [Coke] hoelzro: there was chat in backlog about perl6 syntax highlighting on github that you can probably weigh in on .
14:43 hoelzro good morning tadzik, [Coke]!
14:43 hoelzro thanks for the backlog tip
14:43 * hoelzro looks
14:43 itz wasn't that about p6doc syntax parsing? github does perl6 syntax highlighting
14:44 RabidGravy because, previously Panda::Bundler used to set $*EXECUTABLE to add the -MPanda::DepTracker, this don't work with Proc::Async, Pamda::Bundler collects the loaded ,modules for build, test and by extension run
14:46 tadzik aha, I see
14:48 RabidGravy passing the optional @deps leaves the door open for any future similar things
14:48 tadzik I wonder if I wouldn't rather have something like $*EXECUTABLE_FLAGS that each Panda::SubTask-thingy has to remember to respect, but I won't hold your PR any longer :) It fixes things, that's the most important thing
14:48 RabidGravy :)
14:53 * itz wonders if 'Gravy is going to the London.pm Tech Meet on Thu what with b33r and perl 6 being there
14:54 RabidGravy tadzik++ # cheers matey
14:56 hoelzro ugexe: nice tip about allowing failures! how does that change the interaction with Travis? you still get a notification, but the build shows up as passing?
14:58 tadzik hrm, anyone who'd rather not have META.list sorted by username?
14:58 tony-o i'd rather have it by module name
14:58 tadzik ah, then I can't do it with sort(1) though :(
15:01 dalek ecosystem: 3e677ef | tadzik++ | META.list:
15:01 dalek ecosystem: Transfer the ownership of File::HomeDir to azawawi++
15:01 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/e​cosystem/commit/3e677ef41a
15:03 jkva_ joined #perl6
15:05 hoelzro [Coke]: were you talking about http://irclog.perlgeek.de/p​erl6/2015-08-11#i_11037871 ?
15:06 RabidGravy itz, I'd hate to break my duck having not been to a London.pm tech meeting ever and all ;-)
15:06 [Coke] I think so.
15:06 hoelzro shoot, azawawi is no longer here =/
15:08 itz RabidGravy: I could ecosystem squat perl6-Acme-XAP :P
15:08 virtualsue joined #perl6
15:10 smls In case anyone else is interested in the "general-purpose associative Perl 6 types" situation, I've made a chart giving an overview of the status quo: http://i.imgur.com/aUPdhVk.png
15:11 smls I showed Iterable as a role rather than a class (because the GLR changes that), but otherwise it should match what current Rakudo does. (If not, please correct me.)
15:12 abaugher joined #perl6
15:13 nine Wow that's a nice chart! And it shows there to be no system behind this. At least none that I can see.
15:13 RabidGravy itz, feel free :) You may have to write some workflow/state machine malarkey to get it to work though ;-)
15:15 RabidGravy (which is on my todo list but fairly low down)
15:21 tony-o smls++
15:24 brrt joined #perl6
15:48 smls m: my $x = 5..10; $x.bounds[1] = 8; dd $x
15:48 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«$x = 5..8␤»
15:48 smls ^^ Isn't Range supposed to be an immutable value type?
15:50 rurban_ joined #perl6
15:50 smls m: my $r = 5..10; my $s = set $(5..10), $r;   $r.bounds[1] = 8;   dd $s
15:50 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«$s = set(5..8)␤»
15:50 smls Looks like a bug.
15:51 jnthn smls: Yeah, looks like one to me too
15:51 rurban joined #perl6
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17:48 colomon m: my $r = 5..10; my $s = set $(5..10), $r;  say $s.perl
17:48 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«set(5..10)␤»
17:51 smls m: my $r = 5..10;   say $r === 5..10;  # this is how Set checks identity
17:51 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«True␤»
17:52 smls I submitted it as RT #125791 earlier, btw
18:02 jkva joined #perl6
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18:46 dalek doc: 3d461f4 | (Steve Mynott)++ | lib/Type/ (3 files):
18:46 dalek doc: fix minor typos
18:46 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/3d461f4c64
18:52 domidumont joined #perl6
18:54 dalek doc: 73ba4fd | (Steve Mynott)++ | lib/Type/IO/Socket (3 files):
18:54 dalek doc: change various Socket .send to .print
18:54 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/73ba4fdac3
19:00 khw joined #perl6
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19:58 dalek rakudo/nom: 7814349 | lizmat++ | src/core/Range.pm:
19:58 dalek rakudo/nom: Make sure Range.bounds is ro, spotted by smls++
19:58 dalek rakudo/nom:
19:58 dalek rakudo/nom: Fixes #125791
19:58 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/78143492b8
20:03 dalek roast: d649801 | lizmat++ | S02-types/range.t:
20:03 dalek roast: Add tests for #125791
20:03 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/d649801acf
20:12 bin_005 joined #perl6
20:12 travis-ci joined #perl6
20:12 travis-ci Rakudo build failed. Elizabeth Mattijsen 'Make sure Range.bounds is ro, spotted by smls++
20:12 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/raku​do/rakudo/builds/75151942 https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/c​ompare/14939e39d245...78143492b868
20:12 travis-ci left #perl6
20:13 lizmat is this going to happen for every commit now, until we fix the JVM build?
20:22 RabidGravy or change the travis.yml to shut up about that build
20:23 smls m: $h = EnumMap.new("a" => 5, "b" => 10); $h<b>++; say $h
20:23 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/KE4SAN8HJ3␤Variable '$h' is not declared␤at /tmp/KE4SAN8HJ3:1␤------> 3<BOL>7⏏5$h = EnumMap.new("a" => 5, "b" => 10); $␤»
20:23 smls m: my $h = EnumMap.new("a" => 5, "b" => 10); $h<b>++; say $h
20:23 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«EnumMap.new(:a(5), :b(11))␤»
20:23 smls my $h = PairMap.new("a" => 5, "b" => 10); $h<b>++; say $h
20:23 smls m: my $h = PairMap.new("a" => 5, "b" => 10); $h<b>++; say $h
20:23 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a readonly variable or a value␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/J5NofPeBoI:1␤␤»
20:24 smls So itemizing behavior of PairMap and EnumMap is *reversed* compared to what the design docs and p6doc claim?
20:25 * smls will update the chart
20:26 smls that makes the inheritance chain even weirder though.
20:26 ugexe lizmat: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/489
20:26 breinbaas joined #perl6
20:27 dalek rakudo/nom: fcf27ae | ugexe++ | .travis.yml:
20:27 dalek rakudo/nom: allow failures on JVM
20:27 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fcf27ae07e
20:27 dalek rakudo/nom: c06f4bd | lizmat++ | .travis.yml:
20:27 dalek rakudo/nom: Merge pull request #489 from ugexe/patch-15
20:27 dalek rakudo/nom:
20:27 dalek rakudo/nom: allow failures on JVM
20:27 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c06f4bdd9b
20:27 lizmat ugexe++
20:27 lizmat smls++  # exposing spaghetti
20:28 TimToady smls: the original intent was that enums be immutable and pairs not
20:28 yoleaux 07:47Z <jnthn> TimToady: Slip is just a subclass of List, and it really needs to be that way... I guess Nil could be a role maybe...
20:29 TimToady so if the implementation has them backwards, let's please fix the implementation, not the docs
20:30 smls What if both docs and implementation are backwards in their own way? :P
20:32 dalek specs: b02fdfa | (Steve Mynott)++ | S (2 files):
20:32 dalek specs: fix minor typos
20:32 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/b02fdfafca
20:32 lizmat m: (a => 42).WHAT.say   # should this be an Enum then ?
20:32 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«(Pair)␤»
20:33 TimToady no
20:33 TimToady m: (a => my $x).WHAT.say
20:33 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«(Pair)␤»
20:33 skids ISTR EnumMap was moved for a quick fix allowing it to be initialized, with the (known to be wrong) side-effect of rw access, but then that never got followed up on maybe?
20:33 TimToady note that pairs can be bound to rw parameters
20:33 TimToady and enums are meant to represent constants
20:34 lizmat a => 42 looks pretty constant to me
20:34 TimToady it contains a constant, sure
20:34 TimToady but pairs are supposed to be more like Lisp cons cells
20:34 smls Couldn't an immutable Pair (in the sense that Parcel, and post-GLR List, is immutable) fuilfil both tasks?
20:35 TimToady both which tasks?  you certainly can't bind something immutable to a rw parameter and then expect to write to it
20:36 TimToady though one could argue it's immutable like a list, but can hold containers, I suppose
20:36 smls be an immutable constant (hat is safe to use as Set key, for example), but still allow Hash.pairs and similar to be an rw interface
20:36 smls m: my $s = 5; my $l = (4, $s, 6); $s++; say $l
20:36 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«4 6 6␤»
20:37 smls simply by having those use-cases that need it, exclicitly pass an item container as value, like ^^
20:37 smls but not enforcing the item container by default
20:37 TimToady might be sane, post-GLR-wise
20:38 yqt joined #perl6
20:39 smls then Enum would not be needed anymore
20:39 smls and EnumMap could be renamed to Map, like jnthn++ suggested
20:39 smls and things would already start to look much more friendly in that part of the type hierarchy... :P
20:41 virtualsue joined #perl6
20:44 TimToady m: my $p = pair((my $a),(my $b)); $a = 'a'; $b = 42; say $p
20:44 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«(Any) => (Any)␤»
20:44 TimToady but in that case, something is deconting that shouldn't
20:45 smls all I know is that it works with pre-GLR Parcel, so surely it can be made to work with others... :P
20:45 * TimToady --> oil change &
20:50 jkva joined #perl6
20:52 lizmat m: my $p = Pair.new(:key(my $a),:value(my $b)); $a = "a"; $b = 42; say $p  # the problem is with Pair.new, not necessarily with pair
20:52 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«(Any) => (Any)␤»
20:54 smls http://imgur.com/a/DL1BE  -- update 'associative' types chart, as well as a bonus chart for the 'positional' ones (just for context - those are perfectly fine IMO).
20:56 llfourn joined #perl6
20:57 * japhb catches up with skimming last couple day's worth of backlog
20:57 japhb nine++  # Inline::Perl5, woot!
20:57 japhb It sounds like you're getting closer and closer to "least surprise" for users
20:57 japhb jnthn++  # GLR coding machine
21:03 jkva joined #perl6
21:05 ugexe anyone taken a crack at rakudo on win10 IoT yet?
21:10 dalek specs: 4b6a1fc | lizmat++ | S17-concurrency.pod:
21:10 dalek specs: Kebab-case IO::Notification.watch_path
21:10 dalek specs:
21:10 dalek specs: Also simplify .IO.watch example
21:10 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/4b6a1fc316
21:16 colomon joined #perl6
21:18 diana_olhovik joined #perl6
21:18 dalek doc: be54e6a | lizmat++ | lib/Type/Supply.pod:
21:18 dalek doc: Document some more supply methods
21:18 dalek doc:
21:18 dalek doc: and reorganize the methods in more or less logical groups
21:18 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/be54e6a686
21:24 TEttinger joined #perl6
21:30 dalek roast: 29c7420 | lizmat++ | S17-supply/watch (2 files):
21:30 dalek roast: Kebab-case watch_path, part 1
21:30 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/29c74207cf
21:31 dalek roast: d3c4f3b | lizmat++ | S17-supply/watch-path.t:
21:31 dalek roast: Kebab-case watch_path, part 2
21:31 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/d3c4f3b434
21:31 raiph joined #perl6
21:32 ugexe fwiw there is also $in_charge for the 2 ::Async modules
21:33 dalek rakudo/nom: 19890c7 | lizmat++ | / (6 files):
21:33 dalek rakudo/nom: Kebab-case IO::Notification.watch_path
21:33 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/19890c7199
21:34 lizmat ugexe: that's internal though, isn't it ?
21:34 lizmat watch_path is outward facing
21:35 ugexe yeah
21:36 lizmat so I think I've documented all of Supply's methods now
21:36 lizmat except classify / categorize
21:36 lizmat I was looking at them, and I was thinking to myself: what idiot implemented *that*
21:36 lizmat turns out, not only did I implement it, I also specced it  :-)
21:37 lizmat anyways, I have my doubts about the implementation now, need to look deeper into it before documenting it and thereby exposing it better to the world
21:38 [Sno] joined #perl6
21:40 Zoffix joined #perl6
21:45 japhb Your harshest critic: your own future self
21:45 RabidGravy I think it kinda works as it is, document, get people using it and take recommendations :)
21:47 RabidGravy a working less than perfect thing is better than a not working ideal thing in these cases :)
21:48 dalek specs: e155c08 | lizmat++ | S17-concurrency.pod:
21:48 dalek specs: Speculate about Supply.throttle($elems,$seconds)
21:48 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/e155c08e01
21:53 RabidGravy that one's begging for an "atleast"   relative, whereby the taps are called at minimum $secs apart however quickly new values are received
21:54 lizmat are you suggesting treating taps differently?
21:54 lizmat I mean, that not all taps on a given Supply are treated equally?  (as in see all values) ?
21:55 lizmat re-reading: isn't that what Supply.batch does ?
21:55 RabidGravy dunno
21:57 smls RabidGravy: I think jnthn demoed something like that in one of his presentations; don't remember the method name though
21:57 lizmat ah, start/migrate
21:57 lizmat ?
22:00 lizmat m: sub a(\:a) { }
22:00 camelia rakudo-moar a32c14: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot invoke this object (REPR: P6opaque, cs = 0)␤»
22:00 RabidGravy er, no actually what I'm thinking is totally doable with throttle as described
22:01 RabidGravy I'm just stupid is all
22:02 jkva joined #perl6
22:03 lizmat will be travelling for ~ 20 hours in about 12 hours from now
22:03 lizmat will look at implementing it on the way
22:04 lizmat for now, I'm going to get some sleep
22:04 lizmat afk&
22:08 dalek specs: 982edab | lizmat++ | S04-control.pod:
22:08 dalek specs: Prevent some confusion re a b c
22:08 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/982edab7a3
22:08 [particle] joined #perl6
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22:10 lizmat really afk now
22:22 Possum joined #perl6
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23:09 RabidGravy boom! must do sleep. toodlepip
23:13 * flussence notes out loud that "Stage parse" on nom has gotten significantly slower (around 20%) since about 2 weeks ago
23:27 Psyche^ joined #perl6
23:30 flussence ...and spectest shows a similarly large bump. I haven't been paying close attention to happenings lately though, maybe this is old news.
23:31 jjido joined #perl6
23:34 simcop2387 joined #perl6
23:34 dalek rakudo-star-daily: c2c9b3c | coke++ | log/MoarVM- (4 files):
23:34 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
23:34 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/c2c9b3c68c
23:34 dalek perl6-roast-data: df8a889 | coke++ | / (9 files):
23:34 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
23:34 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/df8a88973c
23:34 skids well, tests are growing in number.  Though IIRC someone did trim the timeouts in the async stuff.
23:38 geekosaur joined #perl6
23:38 flussence I know I'm not being scientific here at all :) -- I did observe a downward trend over time even with thousands of new tests being added, but it's taken a sudden jump lately.
23:40 ShimmerFairy Well, I did notice a very slight increase in startup time for perl6-m. Not that I have any measurements, but I figured that since I never notice startup differences, maybe it means something :)
23:40 simcop2387 joined #perl6
23:40 ShimmerFairy (I also haven't see Stage parse: go under 100s for a day or so now)
23:40 flussence 72 here, it used to be about 56...
23:42 ShimmerFairy The new average for me seems to be 104s, where before it was in the high 90s. (Certainly makes me want to start logging CORE's stagestats so I can be moar scientific about it ☺)
23:50 telex joined #perl6

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