Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2015-10-06

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:09 garu El_Che: have you seen https://github.com/tokuhirom/p6-Getopt-Tiny? I'm not sure it does exactly that, but it could :)
00:10 ShimmerFairy I saw a fleeting mention once somewhere in the docs about being able to replace the MAIN parser. But in any case, I don't think supporting '--option value' as an alternate syntax should be too much of a stretch for the default parser.
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00:57 lichtkind garu++
01:11 timotimo El_Che: you can also preprocess the @*ARGS before your mainline runs to completion to fix up "--option value" pairs into "--option=value" pairs
01:19 ShimmerFairy timotimo: would it be too much to support both by default? I've seen plenty of programs do so.
01:20 ShimmerFairy I just noticed that short options require = too in P6, which seems especially weird. (I'd sooner try -ovalue or -o value instead of -o=value)
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01:47 * [Coke] tries to convert the profiler html from jquery-bootstrap to angular-bootstrap. boom.
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03:29 dalek nqp: e522c72 | coke++ | src/vm/moar/profiler/template.html:
03:29 dalek nqp: use angular-bootstrap, not jquery-bootstrap
03:29 dalek nqp:
03:29 dalek nqp: We're already using angular - use the ui.bootstrap module for all
03:29 dalek nqp: our bootstrap needs; avoids loading two frameworks simultaneously.
03:29 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/e522c72da7
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03:30 * [Coke] un-booms it.
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03:32 travis-ci NQP build failed. Will "Coke" Coleda 'use angular-bootstrap, not jquery-bootstrap
03:32 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/nqp/builds/83817866 https://github.com/perl6/nqp/compare/72b284cc0a31...e522c72da795
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04:38 zostay_ m: :16<deadbeef>
04:38 camelia rakudo-moar 68f233: ( no output )
04:38 zostay_ m: :16<deadbeef>.say
04:38 camelia rakudo-moar 68f233: OUTPUT«3735928559␤»
04:39 zostay_ m: :16<deadbeef>.perl.say
04:39 camelia rakudo-moar 68f233: OUTPUT«3735928559␤»
04:39 zostay_ m: :16<deadbeefdeadbeefdeadbeefdeadbeef>.perl.say
04:39 camelia rakudo-moar 68f233: OUTPUT«295990755083049101712519384020072382191␤»
04:39 zostay_ m: :16<deadbeefdeadbeefdeadbeefdeadbeef>.WHAT.say
04:39 camelia rakudo-moar 68f233: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
04:40 zostay_ m: :16{deadbeef}.say
04:40 camelia rakudo-moar 68f233: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/Bhjh0UAGl4␤Malformed radix number␤at /tmp/Bhjh0UAGl4:1␤------> 3:167⏏5{deadbeef}.say␤    expecting any of:␤        number in radix notation␤»
04:40 zostay_ are blob literals implemented at all?
04:42 ShimmerFairy not currently
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06:14 [Tux] test             50000    38.657    38.547
06:14 [Tux] test-t           50000    41.195    41.085
06:14 [Tux] and Inline::Perl5 didn't build
06:14 [Tux] http://tux.nl/Talks/CSV6/speed4.html
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06:36 FROGGS masak: the precedece trait in the example existed in the old example (with the unicode "!") as well... I jusr re-borrowed it
06:37 Ven hey
06:37 Ven http://examples.perl6.org/categories/best-of-rosettacode/accumulator-factory.html <- seems like the code doesn't render. maybe someone has a clue? :)
06:41 FROGGS Ven: can you file an issue?
06:42 Ven FROGGS: what's the repo for examples.perl6.org?
06:43 ShimmerFairy Ven: not sure, but it's certainly under the perl6/ organization, and probably has a sensible name :)
06:43 FROGGS Ven: it shows it in the yellow box at the bottom: https://github.com/perl6/perl6-examples
06:43 Ven heh? I typed "examples" in the github.com/perl6 "search" box, and it gave me no result... -.-
06:43 Ven thanks FROGGS.
06:44 moritz \o
06:44 FROGGS Ven: we tend to put a link to the repos at the bottom of all our sites... to invite ppl to make small changes
06:44 Ven o/ moritz
06:44 FROGGS morning moritz
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06:46 Ven WRT the website: I've seen some critics (here and on several websites) say that the code examples aren't all that telling
06:47 Ven I'd like to say (yeah, I'm kinda repeating myself) that I think http://racket-lang.org/ has a nice solution here: an "explain" model, and each function(/method) used is a link to its documentation. What would people think about this?
06:47 FROGGS IIRC the perl(5)docs also do that
06:47 FROGGS so, +1
06:48 Ven s/model/modal/
06:49 Ven FROGGS: you're right! That's good. (I admit I didn't spend that much time in the online 5 docs :)..)
06:51 Ven Do we really have an infix:< >? :P http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-10-05#i_11322893
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06:52 FROGGS Ven: maybe we could use it to concat barewords into strings?
06:54 Ven .tell ely-se I'm more likely to receive message under "ven", fwiw
06:54 yoleaux Ven: I'll pass your message to ely-se.
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06:54 FROGGS m: sub infix:< >($a, $b) { "$a\x20$b"} # sad
06:54 camelia rakudo-moar 68f233: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/3KxVvtQJ4U␤Null operator is not allowed␤at /tmp/3KxVvtQJ4U:1␤------> 3sub infix:< >7⏏5($a, $b) { "$a\x20$b"} # sad␤»
06:55 Ven FROGGS: *g*
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06:57 Ven .tell ely-se WRT comefrom in perl6 – maybe ask masak about it :)
06:57 yoleaux Ven: I'll pass your message to ely-se.
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07:39 ely-se morning
07:39 yoleaux 06:54Z <Ven> ely-se: I'm more likely to receive message under "ven", fwiw
07:39 yoleaux 06:57Z <Ven> ely-se: WRT comefrom in perl6 – maybe ask masak about it :)
07:40 ely-se hmm
07:44 dalek Inline-Perl5: 38241c4 | (Stefan Seifert)++ | lib/Inline/Perl5.pm6:
07:44 dalek Inline-Perl5: "postcircumfix:<( )>" is now spelled "CALL-ME"
07:44 dalek Inline-Perl5:
07:44 dalek Inline-Perl5: Fixes tests on current rakudo
07:44 dalek Inline-Perl5: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5/commit/38241c49c6
07:44 nine [Tux]: ^^^
07:44 nine [Tux]: thanks for reporting!
07:45 moritz sub CALL-ME-MAYBE(\c)
07:45 [Tux] and what about the speed regression?
07:46 moritz [Tux]: how big is it? how big is the standard deviation of your runs?
07:46 [Tux] http://tux.nl/Talks/CSV6/speed4.html
07:46 moritz [Tux]: that might be noise, or it might not be
07:47 [Tux] 38 -> 41 is over the noise level
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07:47 [Tux] we've been under 36
07:48 * [Tux] is rebuilding
07:50 moritz [Tux]: so what's the noise level?
07:50 [Tux] 2%?
07:51 [Tux] 39 and up is a warning sign to me
07:54 lizmat fwiw, bare startup time has gone down for me from 115 ms to 108 in the past days
07:55 lizmat spectest below 210 secs for the first time in a week
07:55 lizmat but still a lot slower than the <100 msecs I've seen before
07:57 nine Japanese really are fast with everything. Even slides are visible less than a second :)
07:58 lizmat there's a name for that style... but I forgot which one
07:58 DrForr Takahashi, I think.
08:00 nine When he showed the Java GUI cod example and the awesomeness came bam, bam, bam, one could feel the wow in the room even in the video :)
08:01 lizmat https://gist.github.com/lizmat/2bf702c8c08587c3a231  # makes Optimizer infiniloop  :-(
08:03 nine lizmat: I wonder if we should keep DEPRECATED as public interface? It seems to be very useful for module authors
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08:03 masak morning, #perl6ers
08:03 lizmat ah, perhaps...
08:03 lizmat it would solve the problem at hand :-)
08:06 masak I think the `is tighter` trait shouldn't be part of the postfix:<!> example. if we're aiming for simplicity, it's making things needlessly complicated. also (arguably), it's wrong.
08:07 nine lizmat: in the weekly, shouldn't it be "where an Array would get popped off @b"?
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08:10 lizmat nine: maybe even "popped off of @b" ?
08:10 Ven o/ masak
08:10 lizmat nine: keeping it at "popped off" now
08:10 lizmat nine++
08:14 dalek perl6.org: a6a9749 | (Carl Masak)++ | source/index.html:
08:14 dalek perl6.org: remove `is tighter` on custom operator
08:14 dalek perl6.org:
08:14 dalek perl6.org: This may be highly subjective, but to me postfixes are naturally
08:14 dalek perl6.org: tighter than prefixes. In other words, I'd expect `-1!` to mean
08:14 dalek perl6.org: `-(1!)`, not `(-1)!`. Compensated a test accordingly.
08:14 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/a6a974960d
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08:17 DrForr It's a pity gamma() isn't a core method :)
08:18 lizmat .tell jnthn is there a runtime downside to a sub called from CORE, and a sub called from Rakudo::Internals:: ?
08:18 yoleaux lizmat: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
08:19 lizmat .tell jnthn if so, would it help to make the sub an only ?
08:19 yoleaux lizmat: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
08:20 masak Ven: \o
08:20 masak DrForr: gamma() ?
08:20 DrForr factorial for real numbers.
08:21 DrForr (well, gamma(x) == factorial(x-1) for nonnegative integers.)
08:21 ShimmerFairy surely Γ() though :)
08:22 DrForr Yes, but I couldn't be arsed to find the compose-keystroke.
08:22 ShimmerFairy masak: I agree with removing 'is tighter', but not necessarily the reasoning. That seems more a question of associativity than precedence.
08:25 dalek rakudo/nom: c981530 | lizmat++ | src/core/ (3 files):
08:25 dalek rakudo/nom: Move THE_END to Rakudo::Internals
08:25 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c981530043
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08:26 dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 31 commits to rakudo/curli by lizmat
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08:33 lizmat afk for a few hours&
08:35 Woodi hallo today :)
08:37 Woodi long time ago there was a mantra here that "core do not have any ...". I wonder how edges are placed ATM...
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08:38 nine lizmat: moving THE_END to Rakudo::Internals makes a sad day for Perl 6 poetry ;)
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08:42 masak ShimmerFairy: definitely not a question of associativity.
08:42 maziar hi i want to write script to do snmp query to device , is there any example ?
08:43 masak ShimmerFairy: recall that associativity only kicks in when two operators are on the same precedence level (and next to each other). there are no such operators here.
08:43 masak ShimmerFairy: I give you partial points on pattern-matching the situation, though. half of the time, people *do* say "precedence" when they mean "associativity".
08:43 ShimmerFairy masak: yeah, it's just that your reasoning in your commit message didn't make much sense to me, since the snippets looked to be showing associativity
08:43 nine maziar: mullagainn did some work in that direction
08:44 masak ShimmerFairy: it's not.
08:44 masak ShimmerFairy: if you don't believe me, check the precedence table in S03.
08:44 maziar nine what ?
08:45 ShimmerFairy masak: sure, I'm just saying that the paren'd stuff seemed more associativity to me. (Maybe because I've thought about rakudo's bogus 'unary' associativity lately?)
08:45 nine maziar: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/search/?nick=&amp;q=SNMP
08:46 masak ShimmerFairy: then you need to update your perception of what's precedence and what's associativity against the normal use of those terms ;)
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08:47 ShimmerFairy masak: I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm saying the -(1!) examples didn't make sense at first because they look like talking about unary associativity to me, because that's been on my mind lately.
08:47 jnthn morning, #perl6
08:48 jnthn ely-se: Thanks for the link, was a fun read :)
08:48 masak ShimmerFairy: it would only be unary associativity if prefix:<-> and postfix:<!> were on the same precedence level. which they're not.
08:49 ShimmerFairy masak: yes, but as I've said a couple times now, it *looked* like something different to me at first, because that kind of snippet has been on my mind as about associativity rather than precedence lately.
08:49 masak ely-se: should be able to implement COMEFROM with visitor macros and goodenough goto, yes.
08:49 ely-se coooool
08:50 jnthn .tell lizmat The startup speed improvement was due to a fix I did yesterday (2997e4db98)
08:50 ely-se although I think an INTERCAL slang would be a better idea
08:50 masak ShimmerFairy: if it looked like something else to you, then you need to adjust your perception so that it doesn't decieve you so easily
08:50 masak you seem to be suffering from associativity hallucinations
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08:51 ShimmerFairy masak: I don't have a perception problem, for christ's sake. I wasn't thinking about precedence differences at first, and the last time I saw syntax like that was looking at the unary associativity table in S03, hence my initial connection and confusion.
08:51 masak *nod*
08:52 masak so this entire tangent we went on, is because something in my commit *reminded* you of something?
08:52 masak thanks, now I know.
08:54 masak your original sentence -- "That seems more a question of associativity than precedence." -- sounded to me like an assertion that it *was* associativity, not that it *felt to you* like associativity.
08:54 ShimmerFairy It's because my brain initially saw it as a talk about associativity, because that table in S03 was the last place I saw such a comparison. So I was initially confused because the words were talking about precedence, but your example snippets looked like associativity examples to me.
08:55 masak and yet you maintain that you're not confused about what associativity looks like ;)
08:55 mathw o/ masak
08:56 masak \o mathw
08:56 jnthn .oO( false associations about associativity )
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08:57 ShimmerFairy masak: I'm not, however you seem to believe that the !($a!) syntax could _only_ be about precedence, and never about associativity.
08:57 masak ShimmerFairy: earnest recommendation: implement an expression parser. makes things really really clear.
08:57 masak ShimmerFairy: then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion at all.
08:57 masak ShimmerFairy: no, I'm just saying that in the case of my commit, it *wasn't* about associativity, and never could be.
09:00 ShimmerFairy masak: and my brain saw those snippets as being about assoc because that's the last time I saw that kind of syntax being used, and because "- and ! are inherently of different precedences" wasn't in my mind. For all I knew, the 'is tighter' could've put them on the same level.
09:00 masak from my point of view, you've been *distracted* by what you saw in S03, and you feel compelled to tell me how my commit reminded you of associativity, when it has nothing to do with associativity.
09:00 jnthn [Coke]++ # profiler feels faster :)
09:00 ShimmerFairy So I was confused because my brain saw what looked like assoc examples in the midst of a precedence discussion, which is why I brought it up in the first place.
09:00 jnthn Well, profiler UI does :)
09:01 masak ShimmerFairy: got it.
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09:01 masak ShimmerFairy: now you need to update your understanding of associativity and precedence ;)
09:01 masak ShimmerFairy: otherwise, this might happen again.
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09:02 ShimmerFairy masak: not really though, the fact that rakudo has been cheating with a 'unary' assoc is no reason my initial assumption was automatically invalid.
09:03 ShimmerFairy masak: at best I just needed to magically remember that prefix:<-> and a custom postfix:<!> are inherently on different precedence levels.
09:03 masak that's by spec, though
09:03 ShimmerFairy "custom" means it's not by spec :)
09:03 masak no, the spec tells you where custom ops go in the prec table
09:03 ShimmerFairy really? Where?
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09:04 masak S06
09:04 masak in the discussion about 'is tighter' et al
09:05 jnthn Hm, also looking at a latest startup profile tells me that the patch I did yesterday to fix pseudo-package introspection managed to undo some lazy deserialization goodness
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09:09 ShimmerFairy masak: I only see one mention on postfixes about "since equiv<++> is the default", but aside from that I don't see any confident statement about default precedences
09:09 ShimmerFairy ah, I see now, the list above that.
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09:10 masak aye
09:10 ShimmerFairy That's far too buried for my taste, I don't think I can be reasonably expected to have stumbled upon that :)    (since I've never sat down and carefully studied the entire synopses)
09:11 ShimmerFairy It's just an unadorned code block, and the mention of what it is even further buried in the paragraph above it. Not really conducive to someone wondering about default precedences and whatnot.
09:12 masak once you're done fuming about it, please update your understanding about precedence and associativity ;)
09:14 ShimmerFairy masak: my understanding doesn't need changing, it's just a case of the last time I saw the !(a!) vs. (!a)! comparison, in the unary assoc table.
09:16 masak ShimmerFairy: you have a surface understanding of matters, which makes you look at the *syntax* and go "my! that look slike associativity to me!"
09:16 masak ShimmerFairy: you can't do that. that's a category error. that's wrong. you need to update your understanding so that you don't do that.
09:17 Ulti is Peter Sergeant on here?
09:17 masak ShimmerFairy: whether something is or isn't associativity isn't a detail you find in the syntax. you can't reasonably do what you tried to do. that detail is in the precedence table, not in the syntax.
09:17 Ulti was just wondering what the plans are for http://perl6.io :3
09:17 ShimmerFairy masak: my understanding of precedence vs. associativity has nothing to do with it, just the fact that I saw the syntax generally because I didn't know the magic defaults of custom postfix ops versus prefix:<->
09:18 masak you made a series of assumptions, yes. they were wrong.
09:19 masak let's move past this. preferably in a learning direction.
09:20 masak if you sincerely believe your understanding of prec/assoc has nothing to do with it, then I'm not sure I can be of further assistance to you anyway.
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09:24 ShimmerFairy masak: it really isn't, it was just a mistaken first idea of what the syntax was demonstrating (again, due to the assoc table being the last place I saw it), and soon after I realized that it was, in fact, completely coherent with the rest of the commit.
09:24 masak *plonk*
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09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: 8709352 | jnthn++ | src/vm/moar/ops/perl6_ops.c:
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: Look at correct frame to see if we're in a PRE.
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom:
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: Fixes incorrect running of POST/LEAVE when a PRE fails.
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8709352e4c
09:26 dalek roast: e284033 | jnthn++ | S04-phasers/pre-post.t:
09:26 dalek roast: Unfudge test for RT #121531.
09:26 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/e284033560
09:27 ShimmerFairy I'm honestly baffled you think I have some deficiency in knowledge (aside from the category defaults; thanks for pointing that out, I've wondered about it sometimes), and don't seem to get that I just made a bad connection with the last time I saw *(a*) vs. (*a)* in text on operator stuff.
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09:53 lizmat .botsnack
09:53 ely-se :D
09:53 lizmat hmmm... yoleaux is AWOL ?
09:55 larion joined #perl6
09:56 * grondilu searchs AWOL in S99 and finds nothing
09:56 ely-se away without leave
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09:56 ely-se http://duckduckgo.com/?q=!ud+awol
09:57 grondilu yeah fpund it eventually
09:57 ely-se ! commands is the only reason I use DuckDuckGo :D
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09:58 lizmat jnthn: I asked via yoleaux at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-10-06#i_11324705
09:59 masak ely-se: yes, ! commands rock
09:59 lizmat whether there's a runtime penalty for calling our subs in other packages, like Rakudo::Internals
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10:00 jnthn lizmat: Will "make it an only" help: almost certainly not
10:00 jnthn Runtime penalty? Not sure.
10:00 jnthn If Rakudo::Interals were a class with methods on it, then the answer is easily "no"
10:00 lizmat I'd like to know before turning things like RETURN into a Rakudo::Internals::RETURN
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10:02 lizmat (I mean: RETURN-LIST)
10:03 lizmat and things like THROW :-)
10:05 * Ven notes the hugless discussion and shrugs :(
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10:08 maziar is ther any sample script to do snmpwalk to a host ?
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10:12 _itz maziar: there isn't UDP support yet
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10:17 lizmat jnthn: I did some benchmarks: calling an our sub from another package, is about 19x slower  :-(
10:17 jnthn lizmat: Ouch
10:17 lizmat I think I'll halt my "moving to Rakudo::Internals" actions for now
10:17 jnthn lizmat: And if you make Rakudo::Interanls a class and make them methods?
10:17 lizmat $ 6 'our sub a { 42 }; for ^100000 { a }'
10:17 lizmat real0m0.276s
10:18 lizmat $ 6 'module A::B { our sub a { 42 } }; for ^100000 { A::B::a }'
10:18 lizmat real0m3.400s
10:18 El_Che garu: timotimo : about my cmd param question. Both your suggestion are certainly valid, but I think the *default* of argument parsing should look UNIX native. Does that make sense?
10:18 jnthn lizmat: We have a little bit of an issue with our subs in packages in that we kinda have to respect rebinding, I *think*
10:19 jnthn lizmat: Which prevents spesh-time resolution/inlining
10:19 lizmat $ 6 'class A::B { method a { 42 } }; for ^100000 { A::B.a }'
10:19 lizmat real0m0.324s
10:19 jnthn And if you mark the class "is hidden"?
10:19 lizmat no difference
10:19 ilmari huh, don't sub calls get resolved at compile time?
10:20 lizmat $ 6 'class A::B is hidden { method a { 42 } }; for ^100000 { A::B.a }'
10:20 jnthn heh, our optimizer is too clever :)
10:20 lizmat real0m0.317s
10:20 jnthn Yeah, not much
10:20 jnthn Leixcal sub calls do
10:20 lizmat within noise
10:20 jnthn *nod*
10:21 jnthn m: package A { our sub foo() { 1 } }; A::foo(); A::<&foo> := { 2 }; A::foo();
10:21 camelia rakudo-moar 870935: ( no output )
10:21 laouji_ joined #perl6
10:21 jnthn m: package A { our sub foo() { 1 } }; say A::foo(); A::<&foo> := { 2 }; say A::foo();
10:21 camelia rakudo-moar 870935: OUTPUT«1␤2␤»
10:21 maziar when i run this script i get this error : Use of uninitialized value in concatenation (.) or string at ./x.perl line 12.
10:22 DrForr maziar: perl6 doesn't use '.', try one of the other perl channels.
10:22 jnthn lizmat: I think the above needs to work. We can get clarification from TimToady on that I guess
10:22 dalek perl6-most-wanted: 063ff07 | (Tokuhiro Matsuno)++ | most-wanted/modules.md:
10:22 dalek perl6-most-wanted: Update modules.md
10:22 dalek perl6-most-wanted: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6-most-wanted/commit/063ff07091
10:22 ilmari maziar: which script? and that's a perl5 error
10:22 DrForr (well, it doesn't use '.' for *that* purpose.)
10:23 rurban joined #perl6
10:23 lizmat jnthn: that's the other thing: if I make Rakudo::Internals a package, all sorts of weird things happen :-(
10:24 lizmat but settings won't compile
10:24 lizmat lemme try that again to be sure
10:25 jnthn lizmat: Well, I used package, but would be same with module
10:25 lizmat hmmm..  it builds now
10:28 lizmat yeah, if I change the stub to package as well, I get:
10:28 lizmat Stage parse      : Error while constructing error object:Could not locate compile-time value for symbol X::Package::Stubbed
10:28 lizmat Error while compiling, type X::Package::Stubbed
10:28 lizmat packages: (unstringifiable object)
10:28 lizmat at line 32407, near ""
10:29 lizmat which is basically a weird way of saying that it didn't see some package be filled out when stubbed
10:29 lizmat weird, because Exception *does* have an X::Package::Stubbed it should now about
10:29 lizmat so, changing it to a module fixed that
10:29 andreoss joined #perl6
10:31 dalek nqp: e8e9b08 | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
10:31 dalek nqp: [js] when we don't have an outer context use null
10:31 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/e8e9b0882e
10:31 dalek nqp: 7ae59c9 | (Pawel Murias)++ | / (3 files):
10:31 dalek nqp: [js] Rewrite the test running script in Perl 5.
10:31 dalek nqp:
10:31 dalek nqp: That should allow detecting the node version and skipping some tests that fail on travis.
10:31 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/7ae59c97bd
10:32 dalek nqp: 09ae178 | cygx++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/io/FileHandle.java:
10:32 dalek nqp: Implement extended file open modes on JVM
10:32 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/09ae178c1d
10:32 dalek nqp: c2610de | cygx++ | src/vm/js/nqp-runtime/io.js:
10:32 dalek nqp: [js] Minimal patch to make basic file open modes work again
10:32 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/c2610dedab
10:32 dalek nqp: 867e81b | jnthn++ | src/vm/j (2 files):
10:32 dalek nqp: Merge pull request #245 from cygx/openmodes-jvm
10:32 dalek nqp:
10:32 dalek nqp: Implement extended file open modes on JVM
10:32 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/867e81b4d6
10:33 bjz joined #perl6
10:36 travis-ci joined #perl6
10:36 travis-ci NQP build passed. Pawel Murias '[js] Rewrite the test running script in Perl 5.
10:36 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/nqp/builds/83863172 https://github.com/perl6/nqp/compare/e522c72da795...7ae59c97bdb8
10:36 travis-ci left #perl6
10:37 * jnthn spectests his patch to address one more of the xmas RTs
10:38 travis-ci joined #perl6
10:38 travis-ci NQP build passed. Jonathan Worthington 'Merge pull request #245 from cygx/openmodes-jvm
10:38 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/nqp/builds/83863246 https://github.com/perl6/nqp/compare/7ae59c97bdb8...867e81b4d68c
10:38 travis-ci left #perl6
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10:49 dalek rakudo/nom: 0689733 | lizmat++ | src/core/ (6 files):
10:49 dalek rakudo/nom: Make Rakudo::Internals a class with methods
10:49 dalek rakudo/nom:
10:49 dalek rakudo/nom: This should be about 18x as fast then calling our subs
10:49 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0689733cd4
10:50 lizmat bbiab
10:50 masak "xmas RTs" ;)
10:50 laouji_ joined #perl6
10:51 dalek nqp: 48faa01 | jnthn++ | tools/build/MOAR_REVISION:
10:51 dalek nqp: Bump MOAR_REVISION for UTF-8 BOM handling.
10:51 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/48faa01233
10:51 rindolf joined #perl6
10:53 dalek rakudo/nom: 1ee7a96 | jnthn++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
10:53 dalek rakudo/nom: Bump NQP_REVISION for UTF-8 BOM, JVM I/O bits.
10:53 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1ee7a96c10
10:54 dalek roast: e2a621c | jnthn++ | S16-io/bom.t:
10:54 dalek roast: Add tests for UTF-8 BOM stripping.
10:54 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/e2a621c882
10:58 dalek rakudo/nom: 1f7a564 | cygx++ | src/core/IO/Handle.pm:
10:58 dalek rakudo/nom: Enable extended file open modes on the JVM
10:58 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1f7a564d7d
10:58 dalek rakudo/nom: 462ab13 | jnthn++ | src/core/IO/Handle.pm:
10:58 dalek rakudo/nom: Merge pull request #545 from cygx/openmodes-jvm
10:58 dalek rakudo/nom:
10:58 dalek rakudo/nom: Enable extended file open modes on the JVM
10:58 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/462ab13b1d
10:58 dalek ecosystem: a4af5b9 | moznion++ | META.list:
10:58 dalek ecosystem: Add Log::Minimal
10:58 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/a4af5b9261
10:58 dalek ecosystem: 2ca19ca | (Zoffix Znet)++ | META.list:
10:58 dalek ecosystem: Merge pull request #66 from moznion/log-minimal
10:58 dalek ecosystem:
10:58 dalek ecosystem: Add Log::Minimal
10:58 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/2ca19ca7ce
10:59 dalek rakudo/nom: a26ecff | jnthn++ | t/spectest.data:
10:59 dalek rakudo/nom: Run S16-io/bom.t.
10:59 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a26ecffaf5
11:04 kid51 joined #perl6
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11:21 jnthn .ask TimToady What is the <colonpair> for in https://github.com/perl6/std/blob/master/STD.pm6#L2032 ? I've been looking through the synopses for some info on it and failed to find anything... Currently Rakudo parses it but has no clue what to do with it, and ends up with an internal compiler error...
11:24 jnthn TimToady: Unless you have a strong idea of what it's meant to do, I'd vote for tossing it for 6.chirstmas.
11:24 telex joined #perl6
11:27 ShimmerFairy jnthn: is that meant to allow something like    class Foo :colon<pair> { , wherever trait_mods usually show up?
11:27 llfourn joined #perl6
11:27 jnthn ShimmerFairy: yeah
11:27 jnthn Well
11:27 jnthn It parses that
11:27 jnthn But then it's like...what do we do with this? :)
11:27 ShimmerFairy yeah, I'm not sure what it might do either :P
11:28 jnthn I mean, it could feasibly be a shortcut for is
11:28 jnthn sub foo($a :rw) { }
11:28 ShimmerFairy jnthn: blame says that was last touched in 2009, was there some sort of annotation mechanism or anything back then?
11:28 jnthn Well, traits certainly existed
11:28 jnthn It's parsed as part of those
11:29 jnthn My suspicion is we're going to end up tossing it from Rakudo's grammar, unless TimToady++ has a reason to want us to keep/fix it.
11:29 ShimmerFairy right, for some reason the first thing in my mind was "oh, I wonder if you're were able to annotate stuff", like QAST's associative side (IIRC)  :)
11:31 nine We can always add it back later without back comp issues
11:32 ShimmerFairy m: sub foo() :colon<pair> { }
11:32 camelia rakudo-moar a26ecf: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/1FEg6MG4bN␤Cannot invoke this object␤at /tmp/1FEg6MG4bN:1␤»
11:34 jnthn nine: Aye
11:38 nuc joined #perl6
11:40 * jnthn is looking into RT #113544, which leads down into the bowels of the regex compiler...
11:41 Lorphos joined #perl6
11:42 Lorphos Hi. There was an example for a  custom unicode operator on the perl6 homepage yesterday, today it has been replaced. Where can I still find it?
11:42 jnthn Yeah, it doesn't have a clue about nameds or flattens in those arglists...
11:43 Lorphos Got it, google cache still had the old copy
11:43 jnthn Ah, phew. Also in the commit history for the site I guess: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commits/master
11:43 jnthn lunch time &
11:44 babe joined #perl6
11:44 ShimmerFairy .tell jnthn worth pointing that I've noticed   @var := nqp::list()  fails in main Perl 6 code, but works in regexes ( :my @var := nqp::list(); ). There's a good chance stuff like that is being handled by NQP rather than rakudo
11:46 jnthn m: use nqp; say 'a' ~~ /:my @x := nqp::list(); a/
11:46 camelia rakudo-moar a26ecf: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding; expected Positional but got List␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/ZJFfxPALBq:1␤␤»
11:46 jnthn Looks pretty failing to me
11:47 jnthn We delegate to the Perl 6 parsing and code-gen for vars, iirc.
11:47 * jnthn -> oven :)
11:47 masak Lorphos: we changed it because the thing it was implementing (factorial) doesn't really need a Unicode character. much more approachable with just '!'
11:47 masak Lorphos: having said that, Perl 6 still works very nicely with Unicode operators, and Unicode identifiers in general
11:48 btyler approachable++ for frontpage examples
11:48 Lorphos i thought it was pretty cool. Frightening but cool :)
11:48 btyler unicode stuff is awesome, but yeah, frightening is the word
11:49 btyler doesn't help the 'line noise' meme too much :)
11:49 btyler (the new page looks _awesome_, btw)
11:49 Lorphos yup. "Perl 6 now has an infinite new number of unicode characters that will let you create obfuscated code!"
11:49 masak Lorphos: we want to be cool when possible and frightening only when necessary ;)
11:49 ShimmerFairy m: use nqp; "A" ~~ / :my @*A := nqp::list(); /
11:49 camelia rakudo-moar a26ecf: ( no output )
11:49 Lorphos I like the page as well. It's not the same old boring stuff you see everywhere.
11:50 Lorphos and it is highly informative while being entertaining
11:50 ShimmerFairy m: use nqp; my @*A := nqp::list()
11:50 camelia rakudo-moar a26ecf: ( no output )
11:50 masak camelia: what are you doing?
11:50 ShimmerFairy jnhtn: sorry, didn't know it was dynamic variables that let it happen, not the inside of a regex :)
11:51 jdv79 how come masak's uni op examples didnt get on the sitr?
11:51 jdv79 *site
11:52 grondilu joined #perl6
11:53 masak I didn't get a full picture of that either, except maybe http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-10-05#i_11321391
11:54 dalek rakudo/nom: bad9be0 | lizmat++ | src/core/Setty.pm:
11:54 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix Set/SetHash.kv
11:54 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/bad9be008d
11:54 masak (or we could do both)
11:55 dalek roast: 9c5c7a3 | lizmat++ | S02-types/set (2 files):
11:55 dalek roast: Make sure we test Set(Hash).kv (correctly)
11:55 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/9c5c7a3f39
11:55 jdv79 how come a search in the irc logs for ± doesnt work
11:55 * masak guesses $answer.contains("encodings") somehow
11:56 jdv79 :(
11:57 lizmat m: 'my $s = <a b c>.SetHash; $_ = False for $s.values; dd $s   # should this work ?
11:57 camelia rakudo-moar a26ecf: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/dwCcxBZFxP␤Unable to parse expression in single quotes; couldn't find final "'" ␤at /tmp/dwCcxBZFxP:1␤------> 3 $s.values; dd $s   # should this work ?7⏏5<EOL>␤    expecting any of:␤        sing…»
11:57 lizmat m: my $s = <a b c>.SetHash; $_ = False for $s.values; dd $s   # should this work ?
11:57 camelia rakudo-moar a26ecf: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to an immutable value␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/ikSRAUAC6S:1␤␤»
11:58 andreoss m: say 1±2
11:58 camelia rakudo-moar a26ecf: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/e2LFGCaska␤Bogus postfix␤at /tmp/e2LFGCaska:1␤------> 3say 17⏏5±2␤    expecting any of:␤        infix␤        infix stopper␤        postfix␤        statement end␤        statement modif…»
11:58 lizmat m: my $s = <a b c>.SetHash; $s<a> = False; dd $s   # this does
11:58 camelia rakudo-moar a26ecf: OUTPUT«SetHash $s = SetHash.new("c","b")␤»
12:01 [Coke] jnthn: (profiler) Oh good.
12:04 masak andreoss: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-10-05#i_11321117
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12:06 domidumont Hello. Do optimize debian packages, I need to know if the moar files produced when building rakudo are the same whatever the architecture (i.e amd64, or arm ...) ? Can anyone confirm ?
12:07 pink_mist why not build on the different architectures and diff?
12:07 pink_mist seems the best way to be sure
12:08 moritz domidumont: I think I recall they are the same
12:08 moritz domidumont: but ask in #moarvm to be sure
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12:12 jdv79 i think having a uni op example on the front page may signal to some that p6 takes unicode seriously
12:13 ponbiki joined #perl6
12:13 jdv79 esp since none of the other examples have uni
12:14 rindolf joined #perl6
12:19 dalek faq: e56e0c9 | baest++ | answers.md:
12:19 dalek faq: Fix spelling of dereferencing
12:19 dalek faq: review: https://github.com/perl6/faq/commit/e56e0c985d
12:19 dalek faq: 92cd9c2 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | answers.md:
12:19 dalek faq: Merge pull request #4 from baest/patch-1
12:19 dalek faq:
12:19 dalek faq: Fix spelling of dereferencing
12:19 dalek faq: review: https://github.com/perl6/faq/commit/92cd9c2220
12:20 domidumont moritz: ok. Thanks
12:21 Lorphos left #perl6
12:25 dalek nqp: bd169fa | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/ (2 files):
12:25 dalek nqp: [js] Implement nqp::backendconfig so that we can check the int size
12:25 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/bd169fa7a9
12:25 dalek nqp: a061c8f | (Pawel Murias)++ | t/serialization/01-basic.t:
12:25 dalek nqp: In t/serialization/01-basic.t also detect when the js backend is using 32bit integers.
12:25 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/a061c8fa05
12:25 dalek nqp: 0e78cd7 | (Pawel Murias)++ | t/serialization/01-basic.t:
12:25 dalek nqp: Check for the correct class instead of a nonexisting one (which ends up being a check against NQPMu).
12:25 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/0e78cd7253
12:25 dalek nqp: e11ec6e | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/bin/run_tests.pl:
12:25 dalek nqp: [js] Pass t/serialization/01-basic.t
12:25 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/e11ec6e82f
12:36 laouji_ joined #perl6
12:38 dalek ecosystem: 3ba4ab0 | (Steve Mynott)++ | META.list:
12:38 dalek ecosystem: Display and cache ecosystem README files for perl6
12:38 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/3ba4ab0412
12:40 dalek nqp: 7719e1b | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/bin/run_tests:
12:40 dalek nqp: [js] Remove test running script we no longer need.
12:40 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/7719e1b182
12:40 dalek nqp: afa4ca1 | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/nqp-runtime/runtime.js:
12:40 dalek nqp: [js] fix errors found by make js-lint
12:40 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/afa4ca17e9
12:43 masak pmurias: just curious: do you find js-lint to give needlessly harsh "errors"? (I did.)
12:43 masak pmurias: for example, the one you just fixed doesn't really look erroneous to me.
12:47 jnthn ShimmerFairy: Ah, interesting find (the dynamic binding thing). :)
12:48 ShimmerFairy m: my @*A := 42
12:48 camelia rakudo-moar bad9be: ( no output )
12:48 ShimmerFairy jnthn: apparently, dynamics just don't care? :P
12:48 ShimmerFairy m: my %*A := 42
12:48 camelia rakudo-moar bad9be: ( no output )
12:48 jnthn m: my Int $*A = 'oh noes'
12:48 camelia rakudo-moar bad9be: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to $*A; expected Int but got Str␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/qs6ymFxrPv:1␤␤»
12:48 jnthn m: my Int $*A := 'oh noes'
12:48 camelia rakudo-moar bad9be: ( no output )
12:48 ShimmerFairy m: my &*A := 42
12:48 jnthn Indeed. Fail.
12:48 camelia rakudo-moar bad9be: ( no output )
12:49 jnthn That one's RT-able :)
12:49 * mathw just flicked past this window and saw "rakudo-badbaby"
12:49 ShimmerFairy will do :)
12:49 * masak submits rakudobug
12:50 jnthn The race is on...who will submit to RT first? :)
12:50 ShimmerFairy masak: already on it :)
12:51 masak oh, ok. standing down :)
12:52 masak m: my Int $A := 'oh noes'
12:52 camelia rakudo-moar bad9be: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding; expected Int but got Str␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/zI9Ehl2Xe5:1␤␤»
12:57 _itz did that .perl looping on circular data get fixed?
12:58 DrForr m: my $x={}; $x.<a>=$x; say $x.perl
12:58 camelia rakudo-moar bad9be: OUTPUT«(my \Hash_139926166332664 = {:a(Hash_139926166332664)})␤»
12:58 andreoss m: my $b = 1 ; my Int $a := $b; $b = "abc"; say $a.WHAT;
12:58 camelia rakudo-moar bad9be: OUTPUT«(Str)␤»
12:59 lizmat _itz: afaik for .gist and .perl, yes
12:59 felher joined #perl6
13:00 andreoss m: my $b = { ... } ; my &a := $b; $b = "abc"; say &a.WHAT; say a
13:00 camelia rakudo-moar bad9be: OUTPUT«(Str)␤Cannot find method 'CALL-ME'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/9o8jGJneUF:1␤␤»
13:00 _itz cool
13:03 dalek faq: 426307d | util++ | answers.md:
13:03 dalek faq: Fix spelling of modifier
13:03 dalek faq: review: https://github.com/perl6/faq/commit/426307d6ce
13:06 laouji_ joined #perl6
13:06 lizmat jnthn: does this ring a bell? Stage mast       : Code ref 'BUILD' does not exist in serialization context
13:07 jnthn lizmat: Sort of, but it's been a while and I fixed the source of that error I was aware of
13:08 jnthn lizmat: It's deep/hairy enough I'd just not do whatever you did to cause it.
13:08 jnthn Otherwise it probably costs me a day of debugging.
13:09 * RabidGravy reboots
13:11 lizmat jnthn: ok, I'll just gist the changes and forget about it for now  (and you should as well)
13:12 jnthn lizmat: Yeah, feel free to note it down somewhere, but...we've more pressing things
13:12 jnthn lizmat: Last time it was something involving multi-dispatcher cloning
13:13 lizmat https://gist.github.com/lizmat/f7abe2c542670b0e7b40
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13:15 jnthn hm, but it was count-only it complained about there, not BUILD?
13:15 lizmat it complained about BUILD when I removed count-only
13:15 jnthn I wonder if it's about roles nested in roles
13:15 dalek nqp: 5d01ca3 | jnthn++ | src/vm/moar/QAST/QASTRegexCompilerMAST.nqp:
13:15 dalek nqp: Preparatory refactor for fixing regex args.
13:15 dalek nqp:
13:15 dalek nqp: No (intended) functional changes; this just gets the code into shape
13:15 dalek nqp: for making subrule call arg lists cope with named and flattening args.
13:16 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/5d01ca3ba5
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13:22 dalek nqp: caf4c0f | jnthn++ | src/vm/moar/QAST/QASTRegexCompilerMAST.nqp:
13:22 dalek nqp: Compile flattening in regex subrule arg lists.
13:22 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/caf4c0f967
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13:28 gfldex m: my @l = (1,(2,3,(4,5)),6); @l.deepmap({|$_}).perl.say;
13:28 yoleaux 3 Oct 2015 10:11Z <AlexDaniel> gfldex: I find it a bit messy, but you are probably right. I've changed it as you recommended
13:28 camelia rakudo-moar bad9be: OUTPUT«[1, (2, 3, $(4, 5)), 6]␤»
13:28 gfldex why is only the inner most List Seq-ified?
13:29 lizmat Seq-ified?
13:29 gfldex i'm under the impression that $(4,5) is a Seq
13:29 masak m: say (4, 5).^name
13:29 camelia rakudo-moar bad9be: OUTPUT«List␤»
13:29 masak m: say ($(4, 5)).^name
13:29 camelia rakudo-moar bad9be: OUTPUT«List␤»
13:30 masak nope; it's a List
13:30 jnthn Well, an itemlized list
13:30 yoleaux 08:18Z <lizmat> jnthn: is there a runtime downside to a sub called from CORE, and a sub called from Rakudo::Internals:: ?
13:30 yoleaux 08:19Z <lizmat> jnthn: if so, would it help to make the sub an only ?
13:30 * masak .oO( a caramelized List )
13:31 jnthn mmmmm
13:31 gfldex then why is only the innermost List itemlisted?
13:31 RabidGravy joined #perl6
13:31 masak what gfldex asked :)
13:32 jnthn I don't actually know.
13:32 jnthn It looks a bit off
13:32 * jnthn isn't sure what the deepmap impl looks like these days...
13:32 gfldex at the moment rakudo is my favoured method of confusion. :)
13:33 masak m: my @l = (1,(2,3,(4,(5,6))),7); @l.deepmap({|$_}).perl.say
13:33 camelia rakudo-moar bad9be: OUTPUT«[1, (2, 3, $(4, $(5, 6))), 7]␤»
13:33 masak it's not "just the innermost"
13:33 masak it's "level N and below"
13:33 * masak .oO( only-so-deep-map )
13:33 masak m: my @l = (1,[2,3,(4,(5,6))],7); @l.deepmap({|$_}).perl.say
13:33 camelia rakudo-moar bad9be: OUTPUT«[1, [2, 3, (4, $(5, 6))], 7]␤»
13:34 * gfldex .oO( by lazy we didnt mean ...)
13:34 masak a-ha.
13:34 masak .deepmap only talks to Arrays
13:34 masak not Lists
13:34 masak I think that dissolves the mystery
13:34 masak whether it's *intended* behavior... I'm not the one to answer that, I think
13:35 moritz it not only solves it, but actually dissolves it. I'm impressed! :-)
13:36 gfldex my next question would be what is the current method of deep-flattening that works both List and Array
13:36 jnthn So the mystery remains...dis-solved? :P
13:36 gfldex i'm asking mostly because of http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Flatten_a_list#Perl_6
13:37 pecastro joined #perl6
13:38 jnthn m: my @l = (1,[2,3,(4,(5,6))],7); .perl.say given gather @l.deepmap(*.take) # one way
13:38 camelia rakudo-moar bad9be: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7).Seq␤»
13:38 jnthn I had a cuter one but forgot it...
13:38 user3 joined #perl6
13:39 dalek nqp: eaa6350 | jnthn++ | src/vm/moar/QAST/QASTRegexCompilerMAST.nqp:
13:39 dalek nqp: Compile named args in regex subrule arglists.
13:39 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/eaa63501fd
13:39 gfldex if i post that on rosettacode small children might point fingers at perl6
13:39 gfldex i can haz List|Array::deepflat plox?
13:40 DrForr People are already pointing middle fingers at it, why would some more fingers matter? :)
13:40 gfldex because perl6 is ment to be sexy!
13:42 user3 DrForr: I'm puzzled by your statement. why are people pointing middle fingers at perl6?
13:44 jnthn gfldex: While I'd agree we can prolly do better than the one I gave, it's still a bunch better than most of the ones on that page ;)
13:45 DrForr user3: Just forget it, I'm still sore and grumpy over here.
13:46 user3 thats alright doc
13:47 * masak .oO( "what's up, doc?" -- "this middle finger here, see..." )
13:48 DrForr "That's a rather personal question..."
13:49 * [Coke] notes belatedly that the profile modal windows when you click "view" have an X that doesn't currently work. You can click away from it or press "ESC" to make it go away. I'll get that fixed shortly.
13:50 masak ++[Coke]
13:50 * gtodd installs Stats module with shiny GLR perl6 wheee!! ...
13:50 * _itz wonders if "spunky spokesbug" is negotiable
13:51 gtodd when I do:   min @dataset   ... everything is grand!  but when I use Stats.pm6's "summary" method  https://github.com/MattOates/Stats/blob/master/lib/Stats.pm6#L148
13:52 * [Coke] would get buyin from TimToady before changing that word.
13:52 [Coke] (for itz)
13:52 gtodd no worky unless I change  'max'=>max($x)   to    'max'=>max($x.list)   (which is priobably wrong but I just wanted it to work)
13:52 jnthn _itz: I suspect the whole intro paragraph wants a re-wording
13:52 pmurias re deepmap (not deep-map) is there a naming convention for things in the setting?
13:53 _itz https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/issues/32
13:54 masak pmurias: only that hyphens are generally avoided when something can be argued to be one word
13:55 rurban joined #perl6
13:56 user3 left #perl6
13:57 dalek rakudo/nom: fbac827 | jnthn++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
13:57 dalek rakudo/nom: Get regex subrule arglist compilation fixes.
13:57 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fbac827bf9
13:57 gtodd I assume it's something to do with GLR ... Stats is an extremely simple module I'm sure that after Xmas it won't take long for it or something like it to get R-like
13:58 dalek roast: c597341 | jnthn++ | S05-grammar/signatures.t:
13:58 dalek roast: Tests to cover RT #113544.
13:58 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/c597341f86
13:59 jnthn gtodd: `max => $x.max` is probably the neater fix
13:59 gfldex m: my @l = [1,[2,3,[4,5]],6]; @l.map({$_.Slip}).perl.say; @l.deepmap({$_.Slip}).perl.say;
13:59 camelia rakudo-moar bad9be: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 3, $[4, 5], 6).Seq␤[1, [2, 3, [4, 5]], 6]␤»
14:06 masak m: my @l = [1,[2,3,[4,5]],6]; say @l.map(*.Slip).perl; say @l.deepmap(*.Slip).perl
14:06 camelia rakudo-moar bad9be: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 3, $[4, 5], 6).Seq␤[1, [2, 3, [4, 5]], 6]␤»
14:07 andreoss is there an example of matching a quoted string with consideration of escaped quotes?
14:09 pmurias masak: deepmap is one word?
14:10 masak pmurias: arguably, since we make it a concept.
14:10 masak pmurias: in the same way "substring" is one word, and hence not "subString"
14:11 pmurias do we use camel case too?
14:11 gtodd jnthn: thanks .... I discovered that in the repl and was trying to read up and figure out why it worked on the array but not the "reference"  :-)
14:11 masak andreoss: https://github.com/moritz/json/blob/master/lib/JSON/Tiny/Grammar.pm#L26
14:13 pmurias masak: just looking at S32 there seems to be a lot of inconsistency in naming
14:13 pmurias which sucks really badly
14:14 chenryn joined #perl6
14:15 masak pmurias: I haven't thought that much about hyphens, but I imagine you're right.
14:15 masak pmurias: the inconsistency I've been noticing is how some methods have a sub form, and some don't. with no actualy thought of system behind it.
14:17 pmurias masak: we have both splitdir and is-hidden
14:18 pmurias we need to enforce a naming convention before the christmas release
14:18 jnthn JOY!!! More renaming...
14:19 masak yeah, that was my gut reaction, too
14:19 masak even though I agree with pmurias in principle
14:19 [Coke] better now than post christmas
14:19 jnthn Well, I can imagine that a bunch of the I/O related stuff does want a pass through naming wise.
14:19 moritz and please with deprecations this time :-)
14:19 masak the good thing is that we largely do have the infrastructure nowadays to handle the fallout of renaming in the ecosystem
14:19 masak the bad thing is that it's still churn, hassle, and tuits
14:20 masak moritz++ # deprecations, +1
14:20 * jnthn didn't even really know splitdir existed, and wonders where it is
14:20 andreoss m: say '"abc \"xyz\" "'   ~~ / [ <-["]> | \\<["]> ]+  /;
14:20 camelia rakudo-moar bad9be: OUTPUT«「abc \"xyz\" 」␤»
14:20 laouji joined #perl6
14:21 jnthn But yeah, I'm not really up for much more churn.
14:21 andreoss good
14:21 masak jnthn: no-one is "up for" churn :P
14:22 masak it's like Eddie Izzard says "he does not suffer fools lightly" -- well, who does? who goes, "hey, come on in, fools! welcome, fools!" :P
14:22 andreoss but if i use \" ~ \" it stops wotk
14:22 andreoss m: say '"abc \"xyz\" "'  ~~ / \" ~ \" [ <-["]> | \\<["]> ]+  /;
14:22 camelia rakudo-moar bad9be: OUTPUT«「"abc \"」␤»
14:22 pmurias masak: some of the hassle could be removed if we had a grammar using 'fix-names foo.p6' script
14:23 masak pmurias: I'd take a good deprecation warning any day over that, given the choice.
14:23 Xor_ joined #perl6
14:24 pmurias masak: isn't the optimal solution is to have both?
14:24 ely-se joined #perl6
14:25 pmurias you see a deprecation warnings, run fix-names, run the test suit, look at 'git diff' and commit
14:25 bjz joined #perl6
14:26 dalek rakudo/nom: b6c528d | jnthn++ | src/core/traits.pm:
14:26 dalek rakudo/nom: Routines declaring of/returns T are Callable[T].
14:26 dalek rakudo/nom:
14:26 dalek rakudo/nom: So you can pass them to something wanting a `T &foo` parameter.
14:26 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b6c528d2ce
14:26 khw joined #perl6
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: e5612aa | lizmat++ | src/core/Set (3 files):
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: Make SetHash.pairs/values/kv left-valuable
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom:
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: Which means, that if you assign a False value to it, the key will
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: be removed from the SetHash.  Just like setting the value to 0 with
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: BagHash and MixHash.
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e5612aac40
14:27 lizmat commute to Amsterdam.pm&
14:31 andreoss m: say q/"abc \"xyz\"" .../ ~~ / \" ~ \" [ <-["]> | '\"' ]++ /;
14:31 camelia rakudo-moar fbac82: OUTPUT«「"abc \"xyz\"」␤»
14:32 masak pmurias: yes, both is better. but given the exclusive choice, I'd prefer the deprecation which told me what to do manually.
14:32 jnthn m: sub f($x) returns Int { return $x }; say &f ~~ Callable[Int]
14:32 camelia rakudo-moar fbac82: OUTPUT«False␤»
14:33 bjz joined #perl6
14:34 dalek roast: 4e9eb58 | jnthn++ | S06-signature/types.t:
14:34 dalek roast: Add a test for RT #121426.
14:34 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/4e9eb58e78
14:36 laouji joined #perl6
14:38 * grondilu wonders why panda is so slow
14:39 grondilu (just launching "panda help" and I could almost make myself a coffee before I get any output :/  )
14:39 dalek roast: 9d891a0 | jnthn++ | S06-multi/type-based.t:
14:39 dalek roast: Further coverage of RT #121426.
14:39 dalek roast:
14:39 dalek roast: Ensuring the fix interacts correctly with multi-dispatch.
14:39 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/9d891a02b5
14:40 tadzik grondilu: many factors :/
14:40 tadzik grondilu: mostly it's just that panda is a big beast
14:40 tadzik lots of code that gets compiled whenever you type 'panda'
14:41 grondilu ok
14:41 [Coke] could also stand to be profiled, maybe?
14:42 _itz some suggestions for addition perl6.org home page content at https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/pulls
14:42 _itz ermm https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/pull/38
14:47 dalek perl6.org: 21e28de | (Steve Mynott)++ | source/index.html:
14:47 dalek perl6.org: Some suggested new content for the home page intended to inspire
14:47 dalek perl6.org: discussion.
14:47 dalek perl6.org:
14:47 dalek perl6.org: Basically 5 bullet points of Perl 6 features which probably needs
14:47 dalek perl6.org: review.
14:47 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/21e28decdf
14:47 dalek perl6.org: 97ff8f2 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | source/index.html:
14:47 dalek perl6.org: Merge pull request #38 from stmuk/master
14:47 dalek perl6.org:
14:47 dalek perl6.org: Some suggested new content for the home page intended to inspire discussion.
14:47 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/97ff8f2e8f
14:48 pmurias nqp-m: sub MAIN($arg) {say($arg, nqp::isstr($arg))}
14:48 camelia nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«/tmp/NgXQoV7ulj1␤»
14:49 pmurias and yet in NQP.nqp we have sub MAIN(@ARGS) {...} on the moarvm backend
14:51 dalek perl6.org: 2053fab | (Zoffix Znet)++ | source/index.html:
14:51 dalek perl6.org: Take out feature list from "lead" paragraph
14:51 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/2053fab1aa
14:51 gfldex m: my @l = (1,(2,3,(4,5)),6); my @f = @l.deepmap({$_ * -1}); @f.perl.say;
14:51 camelia rakudo-moar fbac82: OUTPUT«[-1, (-2, -3, $(-4, -5)), -6]␤»
14:52 mspo left #perl6
14:53 skids ^^ Every one in a while you have to step back and appreciate how menial it would be to "do that in C"
14:53 tadzik :D
14:54 gfldex m: my constant @l := (1,(2,3,(4,5,(6,7))),8); my $f = @l.deepmap({$_ * -1}); $f.perl.say;
14:54 camelia rakudo-moar e5612a: OUTPUT«$(-1, $(-2, -3, $(-4, -5, $(-6, -7))), -8)␤»
14:55 ilmari what's the difference between () [] and $()?
14:55 _itz list, array and slip
14:55 skids Though... where's that lone $() in the first example coming from?
14:55 skids list, arrray, and item
14:55 skids slip would be |()
14:56 _itz oh sorry
14:56 PerlJam And you don't usually see slips.  :)
14:56 skids Yeah, they tend to slip by :-)
14:57 _itz Zoffix: the smaller section looks a lot better but you collapsed the 3rd bullet point into the 2nd I think
14:58 ZoffixWork joined #perl6
14:58 ZoffixWork _itz, yeah, I've noticed but my dev box froze up :) I'm on it! :)
14:59 ZoffixWork _itz, are you stmuck on GitHub?
14:59 _itz ZoffixWork: yes
14:59 jnthn ilmari: () List, Array, $ just means "itemize" (put in an anonymous Scalar) so $() is an itemized list and $[] is an itemized Array
14:59 laouji joined #perl6
14:59 _itz it's a bullet point slip!
14:59 jnthn oops, "[] Array"
14:59 PerlJam m: $(7).perl.say;  $[7].perl.say;  $(3,4).perl.say;  $[3,4].perl.say;  # some useful differences
14:59 camelia rakudo-moar e5612a: OUTPUT«7␤[7]␤$(3, 4)␤[3, 4]␤»
15:01 jnthn masak: Did a past you that was a future you when you lasted updated https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=77334 run into any use cases for not doing what the ticket wants? :)
15:01 andreoss left #perl6
15:01 gfldex m: say nqp::istype((class :: does SlippyIterator { method pull-one() is raw {}}).new, Iterable);
15:01 camelia rakudo-moar e5612a: OUTPUT«0␤»
15:01 gfldex i thinks that's where the lone $() comming from
15:01 masak jnthn: let the present me check.
15:02 jnthn gfldex: I'd not expect that to be Iterable
15:02 jnthn gfldex: It's an Iterator, though
15:02 gfldex jnthn: i think https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/4f7065226c4f28f88d70f91065be1e7bff0cb7cc/src/core/metaops.pm#L518 does expect it to be Iterable
15:04 lichtkind joined #perl6
15:05 jnthn gfldex: I'm not sure that line is wrong but the .item 2 lines below looks a bit suspect to me
15:06 ChoHag joined #perl6
15:06 masak jnthn: the answer to your question is "no". please decont away.
15:06 dalek perl6.org: 7e2d6c6 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | source/ (3 files):
15:06 dalek perl6.org: Fix up styles and alignment
15:06 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/7e2d6c613f
15:07 jnthn masak: OK. I pondered waiting for TimToady approval but I already have a queue of those things already, so... :)
15:07 jnthn masak: Only tricky thing is that it may not be as simple as decont
15:07 pierrot joined #perl6
15:08 jnthn m: say (1, 2, 3).map({ $['a' xx $_] }).perl
15:08 camelia rakudo-moar e5612a: OUTPUT«($["a"], $["a", "a"], $["a", "a", "a"]).Seq␤»
15:08 jnthn If I decont then we lose the itemization on those.
15:09 masak ...hm.
15:09 jnthn So we more need the return from sub semantics (recont if item)
15:09 jnthn uh
15:09 jnthn recont if Iterable
15:09 masak I can see how that's related, but it *feels* like completely different thing.
15:09 masak uh, ok
15:09 masak I had no idea subs did that :P
15:11 jnthn They did 'cus you filed a ticket when they didn't :P
15:12 * PerlJam wonders if this falls in the category of tormenting the implementor ...
15:12 jnthn Back when we had lots of implicit flattening and [...] was an item, it was rather more noticable.
15:12 jnthn Nowadays I'd probably get through spectest with a patch that just deconts, but... :)
15:13 * jnthn doesn't really have a great name for the decont if not Iterable, recont if it is... :)
15:13 moritz autocont
15:13 jnthn otoh
15:13 PerlJam dwimcont
15:13 jnthn I wonder if we need the magic any more
15:14 jnthn (Because so much auto-flattening is gone.)
15:15 jdv79 who else thinks a custom unicode op example on the front page would be coool?
15:15 jdv79 c'mon;)
15:15 ZoffixWork jdv79, we had it! :)
15:16 jdv79 the past is great but the future is more interesting ot me
15:16 ZoffixWork jdv79, we had this one: http://perl6.xtatik.org/
15:17 rurban1 joined #perl6
15:17 ZoffixWork jdv79, there was one from masak that's cleaner.
15:17 jdv79 yes, something like masak's is cool
15:17 jdv79 even if just hte simple plus minus
15:18 jnthn Filed this discussion on the ticket; will have to filter this one through TimToady++ also I guess :)
15:18 masak jnthn: I can assure you that most of the time after filing a ticket, I *forget about the ticket completely*, instead of hanging around for the fix and then reviewing it and nodding sagely :P
15:18 masak I *wish* I did the latter sometimes :P
15:18 PerlJam masak: you can nod sagely at any time  :)
15:18 ZoffixWork jdv79, this one? http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-10-05#i_11321117
15:18 ZoffixWork jdv79, I don't like that one, 'cause I've no idea what's going on there :P
15:19 chenryn_ joined #perl6
15:19 jdv79 the concept of "plus or minus" seems pretty easy to me
15:19 jdv79 what is complicated about the example?
15:20 ZoffixWork jdv79, what is it doing?
15:20 jnthn Quite a few of the xmas tickets are things needing little design rulings :)
15:20 jdv79 its just op sugar for a range
15:21 jdv79 i'm sure masak or someone could write an "explain" for it
15:21 jdv79 i would but i'm not great at docs
15:22 ZoffixWork jdv79, I like masak's example with "approx equals", but I'm miserably failing with searching the logs. It was mentioned yesterday
15:23 ZoffixWork jdv79, as a Perl 6 outsider, I found it much clearer than the +/- sample.
15:23 jdv79 sounds perhaps highly subjective but ok
15:23 [Coke] ≈ at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-10-05#i_11321129
15:23 jdv79 either is fine to me 
15:24 ZoffixWork Oh that one also has the +/- bit
15:24 jdv79 esp since the approx is built on the plus minus:)
15:24 ZoffixWork :D
15:24 [Coke] +1 on the ≈ - it hides the smartmatch in the sub, making it less necessary to understand ~~ to understand adding an operator.
15:24 [Coke] ... oh, I didn't notice that. Hurm.
15:24 [Coke] eh, ship it
15:25 Xor_ joined #perl6
15:25 jdv79 woohoo
15:25 ZoffixWork [Coke]++
15:25 ZoffixWork :D
15:25 jdv79 now if only that would be used in tests and provide col diagnostics
15:25 jdv79 *cool
15:25 PerlJam except, as an example on perl6.org, don't we want "understanding"?
15:25 ZoffixWork I would get rid of "epsilon" on that example and the +/- think
15:26 PerlJam how would you get rid of epsilon?  Fix it to some tiny number?
15:26 jdv79 PerlJam: if there was a prose explanation attached what is not "understanding"?
15:26 ZoffixWork m: sub infix:<≈>($l, $r) { $l-0.5 < $r and $l+0.5 > $r }; say 2.25 ≈ 2.3; say 3.25 ≈ 2.3
15:26 camelia rakudo-moar e5612a: OUTPUT«True␤False␤»
15:27 ZoffixWork Yeah, just have some pre-built thing
15:27 PerlJam jdv79: is there a place for prose on the perl6.org?
15:27 PerlJam jdv79: or do you mean in the comments of the code?
15:27 jdv79 huh?  i'm talking about the suggestion about an explanation like some oether site
15:27 jdv79 racket?  i forget.
15:27 ilmari sub infix:<≈>($l, $r) { $l-0.5 < $r < $l+0.5 }; say 2.25 ≈ 2.3; say 3.25 ≈ 2.3
15:27 ilmari m: sub infix:<≈>($l, $r) { $l-0.5 < $r < $l+0.5 }; say 2.25 ≈ 2.3; say 3.25 ≈ 2.3
15:27 camelia rakudo-moar e5612a: OUTPUT«True␤False␤»
15:28 ZoffixWork Oh you can do that in Perl 6? Wow, sweet!
15:28 PerlJam jdv79: oh!  yes, that would be excellent!
15:28 jdv79 http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-10-06#i_11324349
15:28 [Coke] ilmari++
15:29 llfourn joined #perl6
15:29 _itz https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CQm-iaVUcAAERGc.jpg
15:29 jdv79 i still think masak's are better thought out  but if it has to be dumbed down that much to get on the page sure
15:29 _itz dining philosophers?
15:31 PerlJam jdv79: I don't know about "dumbed down", but I think we should have examples that are simple to read and understand.   We should also have some examples that are maybe not-so-simple to show off  :)
15:31 masak I'm fine with removing the epsilon, though I put it there because I thought it was a nice, non-silly use of operator adverbs
15:31 masak something that's sorely lacking outside of :exists and :delete
15:32 chenryn_ joined #perl6
15:32 [Coke] There isn't a lot of screen real estate there. I like the idea of each little block showing -a- feature.
15:32 PerlJam masak: maybe it would look better as a ternary op.
15:32 masak PerlJam: could you express that in code, please?
15:32 [Coke] we have the examples page with more complex examples that we can link to
15:32 jdv79 yeah, ilmari's only shows one "interesting" thing.  masak's could be used a a jumping off point into many different topics
15:33 ZoffixWork jdv79, yeah, but if you don't "dumb down", this will be happening, except without you there to explain it: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-10-06#i_11326866
15:33 ZoffixWork :)
15:33 _itz I think the home page examples should be "ad examples" .. easy to understand and compelling
15:33 ZoffixWork Agreed
15:33 ilmari jdv79: and it still has an additional neat thing, the comparison chainging
15:33 PerlJam masak: just as soon as I figure out how to do ternary ops :)
15:34 ilmari m:  say 1 < 3 < 5
15:34 camelia rakudo-moar e5612a: OUTPUT«True␤»
15:34 ZoffixWork Or maybe do a carusel(sp?) type of thing and shove more complex examples further down the line, so only the users interested enough in seeing them get to them
15:34 jdv79 yeah, as long as there's something showing unicode
15:34 ilmari m:  say 1 == 1.0 == "1"
15:34 camelia rakudo-moar e5612a: OUTPUT«True␤»
15:34 jdv79 for now
15:34 masak PerlJam: please let me know how that goes.
15:34 tokuhirom joined #perl6
15:34 ilmari m:  say 4 == 4.0 == "4"
15:34 camelia rakudo-moar e5612a: OUTPUT«True␤»
15:34 ilmari m:  say 1 == 1.0 == Ttrue
15:34 jdv79 ilmari: true
15:34 camelia rakudo-moar e5612a: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/EIBEI9k7tP␤Undeclared name:␤    Ttrue used at line 1␤␤»
15:34 _itz there probably should be a grammar as well
15:34 ilmari m:  say 1 == 1.0 == True
15:34 camelia rakudo-moar e5612a: OUTPUT«True␤»
15:35 jdv79 yes, ad examples++
15:35 masak m: say 4 == 4.0 == "four"
15:35 camelia rakudo-moar e5612a: OUTPUT«Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '7⏏5four' (indicated by 7⏏)␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/C8mFLL5fK7:1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/C8mFLL5fK7:1␤␤»
15:35 masak m: multi prefix:<+>("four") { 4 }; say 4 == 4.0 == "four"
15:35 camelia rakudo-moar e5612a: OUTPUT«Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '7⏏5four' (indicated by 7⏏)␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/cs_soyClJJ:1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/cs_soyClJJ:1␤␤»
15:35 masak m: multi prefix:<+>("four") { 4 }; say 4 == 4.0 == +"four"
15:35 camelia rakudo-moar e5612a: OUTPUT«True␤»
15:35 masak \o/
15:35 ZoffixWork :D
15:38 tm joined #perl6
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15:40 dalek rakudo/nom: f04a24b | jnthn++ | src/core/Array.pm:
15:40 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix BIND-POS type checking in typed arrays.
15:40 dalek rakudo/nom:
15:40 dalek rakudo/nom: We accidentally allowed the unchecked candidates to get called due to
15:40 dalek rakudo/nom: the missing proto.
15:40 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f04a24bc1b
15:40 chenryn_ joined #perl6
15:40 masak m: multi infix:<+>(2, 2) { 5 }; say "2 + 2 == ", 2 + 2
15:40 camelia rakudo-moar e5612a: OUTPUT«2 + 2 == 5␤»
15:40 masak \o/
15:40 dalek roast: 2e2b9fe | jnthn++ | S09-typed-arrays/arrays.t:
15:40 dalek roast: Tests for RT #123769.
15:40 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/2e2b9fe0c0
15:43 timotimo i'm not 100% +1 on "lazy and eager evaluation", because people from a e.g. haskell background will expect pervasive lazyness throughout the whole language, whereas we only have lists that can be lazy
15:50 dalek perl6.org: 4a11eaf | (Steve Mynott)++ | source/index.html:
15:50 dalek perl6.org: only lists are lazy as suggested by timotimo
15:50 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/4a11eafcbc
15:50 laouji joined #perl6
15:51 timotimo thanks :)
15:55 jnthn I just wrote up a rejection of https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=125762 - not sure if there's any nuggets in it worth nabbing for documentation somewhere.
16:01 jnthn Hm. RT #125753. Back to the regex engine for me, I guess...
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16:06 laouji joined #perl6
16:07 TimToady such backlog...at least I dont have to write any more talks this year...
16:07 yoleaux 5 Oct 2015 14:48Z <grondilu> TimToady: I'm curious to read your thoughts about &[o] being associative.  It bugs me a bit that we can't define something like [o] &f xx *
16:08 jnthn TimToady: How went the talk?
16:09 TimToady quite well, room was almost full
16:09 [Coke] RT: 1037; xmas: 91; LTA: 88; weird: 12; glr: 4; nom regression: 8; testneeded: 10
16:09 TimToady will be on video at some point
16:10 TimToady use vim as my presenter :)
16:10 jnthn [Coke]: yay, I was looking forward to seeing the xmas count...been attacking that some today :)
16:10 [Coke] jnthn++
16:11 TimToady found a bug during the talk
16:11 TimToady m: say $[1,2,3].perl; say $(1,2,3).perl
16:11 camelia rakudo-moar e5612a: OUTPUT«[1, 2, 3]␤$(1, 2, 3)␤»
16:11 jnthn oops
16:11 TimToady where'd the $ go on the []?
16:11 jnthn Beats me!
16:11 _itz down the back of the sofa?
16:11 TimToady likely
16:12 timotimo well, i certainly didn't eat it!
16:12 * timotimo chews inconspicuously
16:12 TimToady maybe they said "buck" and you thought it was venison?
16:14 Ven joined #perl6
16:14 gfldex m: my @l = (1,(2,3,(4,5,(6,7))),8); my $f = @l.deepmap({$_ * -1}); $f.perl.say;
16:14 camelia rakudo-moar e5612a: OUTPUT«[-1, (-2, -3, $(-4, -5, $(-6, -7))), -8]␤»
16:14 gfldex m: my @l = (1,$(2,3,(4,5,(6,7))),8); my $f = @l.deepmap({$_ * -1}); $f.perl.say;
16:14 camelia rakudo-moar e5612a: OUTPUT«[-1, (-2, -3, $(-4, -5, $(-6, -7))), -8]␤»
16:14 gfldex that could be related
16:14 ^elyse^ joined #perl6
16:15 * [Coke] tries to git pull -rebase and gets a merge conflict. wtf.
16:15 [Coke] (with, I thought, no local commits)
16:17 [Coke] must have been an unpushed one, ah well.
16:18 timotimo is the "can split method calls across multiple lines" thing in the latest release already?
16:18 timotimo star-m: say $*PERL.version
16:18 camelia star-m 2015.03: OUTPUT«vunknown␤»
16:18 timotimo star-m: say $*VM.version
16:18 camelia star-m 2015.03: OUTPUT«v2015.3␤»
16:18 timotimo oh
16:18 timotimo it's certainly not in that version!
16:19 [Coke] use Test; is_approx (-1) ** -i, 23.1406926327793, "(-1) ** -i is approx 23.1406926327793";
16:19 [Coke] m: use Test; is_approx (-1) ** -i, 23.1406926327793, "(-1) ** -i is approx 23.1406926327793";
16:19 camelia rakudo-moar e5612a: OUTPUT«not ok 1 - (-1) ** -i is approx 23.1406926327793␤␤# Failed test '(-1) ** -i is approx 23.1406926327793'␤# at /tmp/K70AFpQH35 line 1␤# expected: 23.1406926327793␤# got:      NaN+NaN\i␤»
16:20 timotimo it was committed before the change to 6.Birthday
16:20 jnthn Pretty sure it was after the last monthly
16:20 TimToady yes, it was
16:21 timotimo right
16:21 laouji joined #perl6
16:21 timotimo i was about to rewrite the answer about "why do i have to use unspace for method calls across line breaks?"
16:21 jnthn Oh grmbl, the charrange bug is 'cus the NFA engine doesn't know anything about charrange in the ignorecase and ignoremark case
16:21 timotimo but if it's not yet in a release we've done, now is probably not the right moment to do it
16:24 * jnthn wonders how to find out if there are places in unicode where CPx..CPy is contiguous but fc(CPx)..fc(CPy) isn't
16:24 jnthn There surely are such cases.
16:24 TimToady I know!  Write a program!
16:24 timotimo you mean computers can do that?
16:24 jnthn I need to implement fc first :)
16:24 TimToady that's a program too
16:25 timotimo nativecall into something that can do fc :)
16:25 jnthn Though suspect we already have the data handy to do it...
16:25 jnthn The other problem is
16:25 jnthn The NFA engine as we have it today is all about codepoints
16:25 TimToady ⴽ shaving
16:25 jnthn Meaning that we almost certainly have weird bugs in the interaction of NFG and LTM
16:25 ilmari jnthn: fc('ß') eq 'ss', for starters
16:25 timotimo .u ⴽ
16:25 yoleaux U+2D3D TIFINAGH LETTER YAK [Lo] (ⴽ)
16:25 timotimo cool
16:25 ilmari jnthn: so using that as a range end point is nonsensical
16:26 jnthn ilmari: Indeed
16:26 jnthn ilmari: Though we don't actually implement the special casing stuff yet
16:27 ilmari m: "BLAH".fc.say
16:27 camelia rakudo-moar f04a24: OUTPUT«Method 'fc' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/OWe92tIfD_:1␤␤»
16:27 ilmari m: "ß".uc.say
16:27 camelia rakudo-moar f04a24: OUTPUT«ß␤»
16:28 ilmari $ perl -Mutf8 -C -E 'say uc "ß"'
16:28 ilmari SS
16:28 [Coke] ilmari: FYI, there are RTs & tests about the ß and other more complicated casing issues.
16:28 jnthn [Coke]: Indeed, the special casing one is on the xmas list too :)
16:29 timotimo we totally need to turn that silly Ss thing into a grapheme cluster >_>
16:29 jnthn Only if the Unicode spec does :P
16:29 timotimo pls unicode
16:29 TimToady all is fair if you predeclare: use screw Unicode;
16:30 jnthn m: say ord('ß')
16:30 camelia rakudo-moar f04a24: OUTPUT«223␤»
16:30 jnthn m: say ord('ß').base(16)
16:30 camelia rakudo-moar f04a24: OUTPUT«DF␤»
16:36 laouji joined #perl6
16:36 Loren joined #perl6
16:38 nine m: say ($[1,2]).perl
16:38 camelia rakudo-moar f04a24: OUTPUT«[1, 2]␤»
16:39 dalek rakudo/nom: 02e6198 | (Stefan Seifert)++ | src/core/Array.pm:
16:39 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix ($[1,2]).perl missing the $
16:39 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/02e6198009
16:39 nine I have to admit however, that I'm not sure why exactly this fixes it.
16:40 [Coke] nine: lc self is used right after that - with SELF: in the signature, what does self mean?
16:40 [Coke] anyone else getting failures in t/spec/S04-exceptions/fail.t, t/spec/S04-statements/try.t, t/spec/S32-io/move.t, t/spec/integration/error-reporting.t ?
16:41 TimToady does 'self' do a decont for some reason/
16:41 pecastro joined #perl6
16:41 TimToady ?
16:41 jnthn [Coke]: yes
16:41 ZoffixWork joined #perl6
16:41 nine Hah, seems like moritz++ fixed the exact same bug in List back in August
16:41 jnthn TimToady: Yes, we've pretty much always had it that way
16:42 jnthn TimToady: For one 'cus it means self is useful for attribute access without having to throw decont onto every single one
16:42 ZoffixWork TimToady, timotimo I'm pretty sure the "methods on multiple lines" are in the latest Rakudo Star. I installed it late last week and all the examples in these docs work: https://github.com/stmuk/p6-Text-VimColour
16:42 nine jnthn: regarding https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f04a24bc1b so the takeaway is "when in doubt, add a proto"?
16:43 jnthn nine: Only when you know you want to hide all inherited candidates
16:43 jnthn nine: You often don't
16:44 nine Ah, it's about multi dispatch and inheritance. Thanks for enlightening me :)
16:44 yqt joined #perl6
16:45 TimToady same thing for lexical scopes and multi subs
16:46 nine It's quite obvious in hindsight, but this definitely has been a missing piece in my understanding of multi dispatch
16:46 TimToady I wonder if we actually test that...
16:48 jnthn TimToady: Oh, I had a question in that area...
16:49 jnthn proto foo(|) { * }; sub foo($a) { }; sub foo($a, $b) { }
16:49 jnthn Here, the synopses have us promote those two subs to multis
16:49 jnthn But do I have to distinguish it from:
16:49 jnthn multi sub foo($a) { }; sub foo($a, $b) { }
16:49 jnthn (That is, we already installed a generated proto)
16:50 TimToady otoh, it's much more likely to be a mistake
16:50 TimToady well, but if it Just Works...
16:51 TimToady but we could mark generated proto as not being quite that powerful
16:51 nine If it Just Works it better always worked like intended...
16:51 laouji joined #perl6
16:51 jnthn Well, I can probably mark it in the compiler's symbol table rather than having to mark the code object itself
16:51 TimToady "Need explicit proto to promote only sub to multi sub"
16:52 jnthn Anyway, I can find a way to distinguish them; it's just a little extra effort, which I only wanted to do it it's needed. :)
16:52 jnthn Or more like, didn't want to do and then have you tell me I didn't need to. :)
16:52 atweiden joined #perl6
16:53 TimToady m: proto foo(|) { * }; sub foo($a) { say "HERE" }; sub foo($a, $b) { say "THERE" }; foo(42)
16:53 camelia rakudo-moar f04a24: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/7cbxO3We6a␤Redeclaration of routine foo␤at /tmp/7cbxO3We6a:1␤------> 3foo(|) { * }; sub foo($a) { say "HERE" }7⏏5; sub foo($a, $b) { say "THERE" }; foo(4␤    expecting any of:␤        horizontal…»
16:54 jnthn Today we don't promote at all
16:54 TimToady otgh, conservative thing might be to just disallow it for now
16:54 jnthn Sure, I can change the design docs and resolve the ticket that way too :)
16:55 moritz +1 to disallowing it
16:55 TimToady I think it's that way to go with the design of 'my multi $var' allowing multiple 'my $var' which is motivated by making it easier to write macros
16:56 moritz we have multi vars? :-)
16:56 TimToady but we don't do that yet either, so I don't see much point; maybe a use case will come up when we do macros right
16:56 jnthn OK
16:57 jnthn Then I'll update design to say we're not doing that, clear out any tests, and resolve ticket that way
16:57 jnthn Thanks :)
16:57 diana_olhovik_ joined #perl6
16:58 TimToady and it's not really quite the same either, multiple my $var are supposed to refer to the same variable, but multiple subs aren't, so it's kinda smelly anyway
16:58 jnthn TimToady: There's 3 other RTs I wanted input on, with stuff scattered through the backlog, so unless it's more useful to ask it again now I'll leave you to discover 'em while catching up :)
16:59 TimToady yes, I saw my name being taken in (hopefully not) vain when I skimmed, so I expect to run into them when I backlog For Reals
16:59 jnthn *nod*
16:59 TimToady backlog looks dense as opposed to fluffy this time :)
17:00 jnthn I'm probably going to focus on the Unicode casing stuff and NFG related bits over the coming days
17:00 jnthn There's a small cluster of xmas RTs in that area
17:00 [TuxCM] joined #perl6
17:01 TimToady maybe we can do better than linear scans of large sets of chars
17:01 jnthn For char classes?
17:01 jnthn We already do
17:01 jnthn We have a charrange
17:01 ilmari inversion lists?
17:01 TimToady isn't that only a single range?
17:01 jnthn But...how that intersects with :m and :i is kinda hairy
17:02 jnthn Yes, like a..f
17:02 TimToady hence the fc continuity question
17:02 TimToady I think we need a better way to represent non-contig sets
17:02 jnthn *nod*
17:03 TimToady then you just switch if you notice your fc isn't contig
17:03 jnthn ilmari: Yes, that's a useful data structure for it
17:03 ilmari perl5 uses them heavily for unicode properties
17:03 TimToady um, I don't think that's how perl5 does it
17:04 TimToady it uses lazy hierarchical bitmaps
17:04 ilmari unicode properties are compiled to inversion lists that are just mapped into memory
17:04 ilmari the sets of codepoints matching a given unicode property, that is
17:04 * jnthn should really get foldcase in place and the support for case changes that change the string length
17:04 TimToady not really inversion lists, unless they changed
17:04 ilmari TimToady: khw has been doing lots of work on that the last few years
17:05 TimToady okay
17:05 ilmari http://perl5.git.perl.org/perl.git/blob/HEAD:/regen/mk_invlists.pl
17:06 ilmari some are compiled into regcomp.o, others into utf8.o
17:08 TimToady thanks for the update
17:08 * TimToady hasn't been trakcing p5 very closely, for some reason...
17:10 ^elyse^ joined #perl6
17:12 * TimToady wonders, though, if the performance on non-Latin scripts suffers from not caching recently used bitmaps
17:13 jnthn Time for a break; bbl &
17:16 n0tjack joined #perl6
17:18 grondilu has anyone considered allowing functions to be algebric?   I mean, &f + &g would mean -> |arg { f(arg) + g(arg) }
17:18 khw Actually, perl5 uses a hybrid scheme.  For properties that have few enough entries in their inversion lists, binary searches are used to look things up; for larger ones, the old scheme
17:18 khw is transparently used.  Keep in mind that these bitmaps are accessed through a hash, so there is that overhead.  I did some performance testing and didn't see significant differences
17:18 khw but don't remember the details
17:19 timotimo grondilu: you can implement &+& as a custom operator :)
17:19 [TuxCM] joined #perl6
17:19 grondilu yeah I guess.
17:20 grondilu but the main idea was to shorten some code.  Having to define the operator myself would prevent that.
17:20 laouji joined #perl6
17:21 grondilu not to mention that I would also have to do it for *, -, / and stuff
17:21 grondilu what I had in mind was http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Horner%27s_rule_for_polynomial_evaluation#Perl_6 for instance
17:22 grondilu instead of map { $_ + $x / * }, @coeff,   I whish I could write @coeff X+ $x / *
17:22 TimToady khw: thanks!
17:23 TimToady yeah, hashes have a large k
17:23 [Coke] -1 on functions using mathops.
17:24 grondilu m: multi infix:<+>(&f, &g) { -> |a { f(a) + g(a) };  say ([o] (-19, 7, -4, 6) X+ 3 / *)(0)
17:24 camelia rakudo-moar 02e619: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/axuJJii2l4␤Missing block␤at /tmp/axuJJii2l4:1␤------> 3;  say ([o] (-19, 7, -4, 6) X+ 3 / *)(0)7⏏5<EOL>␤    expecting any of:␤        postfix␤        statement end␤        statement modifier…»
17:24 grondilu m: multi infix:<+>(&f, &g) { -> |a { f(a) + g(a) } };  say ([o] (-19, 7, -4, 6) X+ 3 / *)(0)
17:24 camelia rakudo-moar 02e619: OUTPUT«Cannot call Numeric(WhateverCode: ); none of these signatures match:␤    (Mu:U \v: *%_)␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/jH2S3DZ7wd:1␤␤»
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17:25 grondilu m: multi infix:<+>($x, &g) { -> |a { $x + g(a) } };  say ([o] (-19, 7, -4, 6) X+ 3 / *)(0)
17:25 camelia rakudo-moar 02e619: OUTPUT«-16␤»
17:25 grondilu m: multi infix:<+>($x, &g) { -> |a { $x + g(a) } };  say ([o] (-19, 7, -4, 6) X+ 3 * *)(0)
17:25 camelia rakudo-moar 02e619: OUTPUT«-16␤»
17:26 grondilu m: multi infix:<+>($x, &g) { -> |a { $x + g(a) } };  say ([o] (-19, 7, -4, 6) X+ (3 * *))(0)
17:26 camelia rakudo-moar 02e619: OUTPUT«-16␤»
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17:28 TimToady masak, ven, nine: re http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-10-05#i_11317759 we could think about forcing $ = 42 to mean 'my', and leave non-assigned $ to be 'state'
17:29 TimToady but then we get the question of whether = is the right twigil for pod, since people will want to write $=42 and such
17:30 TimToady m: say $=42
17:30 camelia rakudo-moar 02e619: OUTPUT«42␤»
17:30 TimToady m: say $=sin 1
17:30 camelia rakudo-moar 02e619: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/9tXvghvan9␤Pod variable $=sin not yet implemented. Sorry. ␤at /tmp/9tXvghvan9:1␤------> 3say $=sin7⏏5 1␤»
17:35 kuzgun joined #perl6
17:35 * [Coke] just read rethrown to pun with "retcon". whoops.
17:37 [Coke] We have a test util to get temp file names for tests ,yes? (see custom logic in io/bom.t)
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17:55 FROGGS o/
18:01 gtodd Can anyone tell me the obviousness I am missing in this function/method:  https://github.com/MattOates/Stats/blob/master/lib/Stats.pm6#L153  it always falls through to default because it is returning the wrong type for the type check (I think)  ...  I don't want to finish it for now I just want htis(@data) to print out $bin-width for each adverb type
18:01 atweiden m: my DateTime $dt .= new(:year(1979), :month(5), :day(27), :hour(0), :minute(32), :second(0.999999), :timezone(-25200)); say $dt.perl; say $dt; say $dt.second; say so '1979-05-27T00:32:00.999999-07:00' ~~ $dt
18:01 camelia rakudo-moar 02e619: OUTPUT«DateTime.new(year => 1979, month => 5, day => 27, hour => 0, minute => 32, second => 0.999999, timezone => -25200)␤1979-05-27T00:32:00-07:00␤0.999999␤False␤»
18:01 atweiden is there a built-in way to stringify a DateTime with fractional seconds displayed by default?
18:02 gtodd so  hist (@data, breaks => "Rice") would pruint the result of the given block (i.e.  $bin-width = abs($x.max - $x.min) / 2*($x.elems ** 1/3) ... with the sample data that would be 13.333)
18:05 gtodd hist(@data) that is ...
18:08 TimToady grondilu: I think we can make ∘ left-associative, but note that [∘] in http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-10-05#i_11318069 makes no sense, though [\∘] works if ∘ is left-associative
18:10 gtodd atweiden: $dt.seconds will show seconds ... you want the whole date string to just include that?
18:10 masak since function composition is... associative, does it actually matter if it's left associative or right associative?
18:11 TimToady pragmatically, yes
18:11 TimToady m: say [\o](&cos xx *)[^10]
18:11 camelia rakudo-moar 02e619: OUTPUT«Cannot reverse a lazy list␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/lFjgEgi40c:1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in any  at gen/moar/m-Metamodel.nqp:2860␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/lFjgEgi40c:1␤␤»
18:11 TimToady that works in my version
18:12 _itz 100% 3769     3.7KB/s   00:00
18:12 _itz oops
18:13 abaugher joined #perl6
18:13 ab5tract_ moznion++ ; IO::Blob
18:14 paulmr joined #perl6
18:17 gtodd atweiden: the way I understand it there is likely something like $dt.format(seconds => 1 ) and when you do the construction you could specify it ... but IANAPH
18:21 laouji joined #perl6
18:21 chansen_ atweiden: IMO, If DateTime accepts any fractional seconds precision, it should also format it in a logical decimal unit: milli, micro, nano, pico ... yocto?
18:21 pink_mist planck instants?
18:22 chansen_ heh
18:22 TimToady roast seems to think someone brake backtracing
18:24 TimToady roast also doesn't like the $[] fix
18:25 dalek rakudo/nom: 164953b | FROGGS++ | src/ (3 files):
18:25 dalek rakudo/nom: change some nqp::die's to $*W.throw to get file/line
18:25 dalek rakudo/nom:
18:25 dalek rakudo/nom: This also means better testability. There are still a bunch of
18:25 dalek rakudo/nom: nqp::die's left.
18:25 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/164953b3de
18:25 yqt joined #perl6
18:29 dalek rakudo/nom: 54746f2 | TimToady++ | src/ (2 files):
18:29 dalek rakudo/nom: make o left associative
18:29 dalek rakudo/nom:
18:29 dalek rakudo/nom: This allows [\o] &cos xx * to work.
18:29 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/54746f20f7
18:30 masak oh, that's the pragmatic reason. got it.
18:30 moritz FROGGS++ # I like it
18:30 masak yes, then infix:<o> should definitely be left associative.
18:30 masak I guess that generalizes, even. "when in doubt, make it left associative"
18:30 grondilu oh yeah [o] &f xx * makes no sense indeed
18:31 grondilu (well, at least no computing sense)
18:31 atweiden m: my DateTime $dt .= new(:year(1979), :month(5), :day(27), :hour(0), :minute(32), :second(0.999999), :timezone(-25200)); say $dt.perl; say $dt; say $dt.second; say so '1979-05-27T00:32:00.999999-07:00' ~~ $dt
18:31 camelia rakudo-moar 02e619: OUTPUT«DateTime.new(year => 1979, month => 5, day => 27, hour => 0, minute => 32, second => 0.999999, timezone => -25200)␤1979-05-27T00:32:00-07:00␤0.999999␤False␤»
18:32 TimToady well, Ramanujan might have an opinion :)
18:32 chansen_ Why is DateTime is using the named parameter :timezone when it takes a offset from UTC in seconds, thats just plain wrong. An offset from UTC is not a timezone
18:32 atweiden m: my DateTime $dt .= new(:year(1979), :month(5), :day(27), :hour(0), :minute(32), :second(0.999999), :timezone(-25200)); say $dt.perl; say $dt; say $dt.second; say so '1979-05-27T00:32:00-07:00' ~~ $dt
18:32 camelia rakudo-moar 02e619: OUTPUT«DateTime.new(year => 1979, month => 5, day => 27, hour => 0, minute => 32, second => 0.999999, timezone => -25200)␤1979-05-27T00:32:00-07:00␤0.999999␤False␤»
18:32 atweiden gtodd: p6 seems to treat the stringified output as having the fractional second but does not display it
18:32 atweiden chansen_: i ask because for testing purposes, i had to specify a DateTime.new to compare results https://github.com/atweiden/config-toml/blob/master/t/grammar-actions/01-primitives.t#L1406
18:32 masak chansen_: I think the value changed and the name stayed, something like that
18:32 grondilu arguably [o] &f xx * is the limit of [o] &f xx $n for $n -> Inf
18:32 masak chansen_: agree that it's wrong
18:33 masak grondilu: but only arguably :P
18:33 TimToady well, hard to find the limits of some functions, like infix:<->  :)
18:34 * grondilu never said the limit is guaranteed to exist
18:35 * grondilu considered [o] 1/* xx * the other day and found this example amusing
18:35 gtodd atweiden: hmm reading the docs it seems maybe you need a ":&formatter" ... the formatter parameter is something that accepts a format_datetime() method
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18:36 dalek roast: e5f7adc | (Stefan Seifert)++ | / (3 files):
18:36 dalek roast: .perl on an itemized array should print the $
18:36 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/e5f7adcdf3
18:36 laouji joined #perl6
18:36 chansen_ masak: :timezone should probably renamed to :offset and it should probably only accept a minute duration instead of a second duration.
18:36 nine Those spec test failures really make it harder to spot regressions
18:37 TimToady you just know some tinpot dictator is going to want noon exactly when the sun is overhead, though
18:39 arnsholt I think pre-standardization times are sometimes represented as second-accuracy timezones
18:40 * TimToady wonders if a minute-accurate longitude runs through Kim Jong Il's house...
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18:46 jnthn Given there's been at least one example of a timezone whose offset to UTC was specified in not just seconds, but fractions of a second...minutes seems a bit short-sighted :)
18:46 grondilu m: say pi*12756e3 / 360 / 60
18:46 camelia rakudo-moar 02e619: OUTPUT«1855.28499486997␤»
18:46 telex joined #perl6
18:48 gtodd TimToady: why are time zones so *stupid* ? why can't they be interrigent !?
18:48 nine jnthn: I got to ask: WHAT?!
18:49 jnthn nine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC%2B00:20
18:51 laouji joined #perl6
18:51 nine That's....actually at least logical, if incredibly self centered and short sighted
18:52 FROGGS jnthn: what should 'my Int:D $a' complain about? we already have a 'Term definition requires an initializer'
18:52 gtodd atweiden: eek specifying a :&formatter  for a DateTime object has cognitive load
18:52 gtodd at least for me :-\
18:53 FROGGS jnthn: 'To be defined variable definition requires an initializer'?
18:53 FROGGS no, that's weird and wrong
18:53 jnthn FROGGS: That's not quite it. More like "Must initialize a variable of type 'Int:D' with a defined value" or so
18:53 FROGGS ahh, that works
18:53 FROGGS thanks :o)
18:53 jnthn Maybe without the quotes around the typename given it's already uppercase
18:54 FROGGS yeah
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18:55 FROGGS I'm attempting to force the initializer now, then we have less problems later
18:58 nine jnthn: oh I just saw that I've never answered your question about Bool's key and value methods in BOOTSTRAP. I'm afraid they have to be there, because EnumHOW.add_enum_value expects the $value object to have them. Well, we could add a version of the method that takes the key and value separately. But I'm not sure it's worth it
18:59 jnthn nine: OK, let's keep it as you have it.
18:59 atweiden gtodd: there's an example in roast/S32-temporal/DateTime-Instant-Duration.t
19:00 gtodd atweiden:  oh goodee ... would be nice to see a simple eg. in the docs  :-)
19:03 atweiden source is rakudo/src/core/Temporal.pm
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19:06 gtodd atweiden: it seems a round about way to say you want seconds in the format ... but I guiess olde-fashioned strftime is round about  too
19:09 atweiden i notice the default-formatter has the optional arg Bool :$subseconds that would likely fix this
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19:09 atweiden how do you pass :subseconds to DateTime.new rakudo default-formatter?
19:10 TimToady m: [\o](1/* xx *)[$_](10).say for 0..10
19:10 camelia rakudo-moar 54746f: OUTPUT«0.1␤10␤0.1␤10␤0.1␤10␤0.1␤10␤0.1␤10␤0.1␤»
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19:15 pierrot joined #perl6
19:16 grondilu well it's not much more amusing than say [\*] -1 xx *  but still
19:16 nine m: enum Foo <a b>; say Foo.isa(Foo);
19:16 camelia rakudo-moar 54746f: OUTPUT«True␤»
19:20 pierrot joined #perl6
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19:24 jdv79 so, very _very_ prelim metacpan preview/prototype
19:25 jdv79 http://hack.p6c.org:5001/release/JDV/Data-Selector-1.02
19:25 jdv79 please don't pound it or expect it to work well cause it where i'm working 
19:25 pierrot joined #perl6
19:25 jdv79 maybe tomorrow i'll try to load more of the modules from the eco into instance
19:25 btyler I think #perl6 might have death-hugged it :)
19:26 jdv79 its super slow 
19:26 btyler oh, there it goes, loaded now
19:26 jdv79 but should come back in < 5s or so =
19:26 jdv79 i only loaded the one dist so far
19:26 jdv79 and that took a few hours
19:26 jdv79 so dinner &
19:26 btyler so is this a straight metacpan install that happens to have p6 in the db?
19:26 sjn_phone joined #perl6
19:26 btyler or just using the metacpan style/layout?
19:27 jdv79 yeah, its just minimal work to get p6 support
19:28 nine jnthn: are the type objects defined in BOOTSTRAP somehow replaced later on?
19:28 btyler cool, great start :)
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19:30 gtodd atweiden: I think the default formatter for DateTime constuctor doesn't groks subseconds you get iso-8601 so you'd need to have formatter function that does it
19:30 gtodd but IANAP
19:30 gtodd 6H
19:30 gtodd :)
19:30 TimToady nine: perhaps the BOOTSTRAP versions are counted in the { ... } category somehow and automatically augment?
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19:32 jnthn nine: No, type objects are forever.
19:33 TimToady are the boot classes counted as stubbed?
19:33 nine jnthn: that's very odd, because use nqp; say Bool.WHERE; say Bool.^mro[0].WHERE; gives me 2 different WHEREs. But Bool.^mro[0] is definitely Bool
19:33 jnthn o.O
19:33 jnthn TimToady: Yeah, we don't compose them in BOOTSTRAP
19:34 jnthn TimToady: So effectively stubbed
19:34 nine That's why Bool.isa(Bool) gives False with EnumHOW using BaseType. With C3MRO, it worked however.
19:34 jnthn nine: Yes, that is weird.
19:36 nine enum Foo <a b>; say Foo.WHERE; say Foo.^mro[0].WHERE; # gives the same address for both
19:38 brrt joined #perl6
19:38 jnthn o.O
19:38 jnthn Very odd
19:38 nine The only difference that comes to mind is that Bool is created in BOOTSTRAP while Foo isn't.
19:38 jnthn Yeah, but lots of classes are created in BOOTSTRAP
19:39 TimToady jnthn: re http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-10-05#i_11318366 I think we actually need to think about how to expose the metaop factories as HOP features, not just hide 'em
19:39 lizmat joined #perl6
19:39 TimToady at least, those that don't already have exposure
19:40 TimToady triangle, cross...
19:40 jnthn TimToady: I'm fine with choosing to expose things; it's the things we don't choose to that I'm worried about :)
19:41 pmurias Zoffix: re perl6.xtatik.org, I think there are maybe better examples for someone new to the language then unicode operators and the infinite fibonacii sequence
19:42 atweiden gtodd: https://github.com/atweiden/config-toml/commit/37894abfc7d74477e125ce07d00aa14b2f035bd8
19:43 pmurias Zoffix: I would aim more towards "wow, that's useful"/"sounds sane and good" mix rather then "hmm, how peculiar"
19:45 gtodd atweiden: yaya!  or that :-)
19:49 grondilu pmurias: what example would you chose?
19:49 btyler a simple class (maybe consuming a role), a grammar, and a non-blocking socket server (yes, I'm already poking at these :)
19:52 jnthn Time for me to rest...be back tomorrow o/
19:52 lizmat good night, jnthn
19:53 lizmat m: say .2 - .3 + .1 == 0
19:53 camelia rakudo-moar 54746f: OUTPUT«True␤»
19:53 lizmat ^^^  perhaps a small example for the home page ?
19:53 gtodd heheh
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19:53 gtodd "we invite you to try the above in your current favourite language"
19:54 btyler I think it is super cool (honestly it never struck me how wrong this was in most languages I used, I just accepted it), but it doesn't seem _inspiring_ (to me, at least)
19:54 btyler and using as a put-down on other langs will just invite bickering
19:55 btyler or petty questions about performance and memory usage
19:55 [Coke] I think it's a good example for the front page.
19:56 lizmat nine: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-10-06#i_11328015   # I guess they fell in the cracks between timotimo and me
19:58 lizmat will look at them tomorrow... unless someone beats me to it
19:58 brrt good * #perl6
19:59 lizmat brrt o/
19:59 nine lizmat: if anyone's to blame, it's the people who don't work on Perl 6 :)
19:59 brrt ohai lizmat
20:00 gtodd btyler: good point
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20:00 btyler gtodd: don't get me wrong, Ovid used this to _great_ effect in his FOSDEM talk :)
20:01 btyler the whole room went: "....woah, you're right, that's so busted"
20:01 gtodd btyler: maybe just have it presented more as a small (?!)  "attenton to detail ..." thing that makes perl6   likeable :-D
20:01 TimToady I list some of those in my talk last night
20:01 TimToady *ted
20:02 TimToady %%
20:02 TimToady now - INIT now
20:02 gtodd just a bunch of little things ...  sort of how in in astronomy  little things like air and gravity can make a planet interesting :)
20:03 TimToady m: say „a“ … „zz“
20:03 camelia rakudo-moar 54746f: OUTPUT«(a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z aa ab ac ad ae af ag ah ai aj ak al am an ao ap aq ar as at au av aw ax ay az ba bb bc bd be bf bg bh bi bj bk bl bm bn bo bp bq br bs bt bu bv bw bx by bz ca cb cc cd ce cf cg ch ci cj ck cl cm cn co cp…»
20:03 gtodd :-D
20:04 ^elyse^ :-D
20:04 lizmat I would not mention an invitation to try in other languages...  it should be implicit  :-)
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20:05 brrt hmmmm
20:05 brrt i'm ambivalent about it
20:06 brrt it's typical language boasting
20:06 gtodd lizmat: yes
20:06 TimToady last night I blew their mind with a simple 1,2,4 ... 2**32
20:06 lizmat brrt: it's a USP of Perl 6
20:07 lizmat m: say 1,2,4 ... 2**32
20:07 camelia rakudo-moar 54746f: OUTPUT«(1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 4294967296)␤»
20:07 brrt i agree. i'm trying to imagine how i'd react to it if i didn't already think perl6 was cool
20:07 TimToady "How does it know?!" someone cried out.
20:08 brrt i think i read in the synopses how that is done
20:08 brrt it's clever for sure :-)
20:08 brrt constant ratios iirc
20:09 TimToady simple junctions are also kinda wow
20:11 lizmat m: say now - BEGIN now
20:11 camelia rakudo-moar 54746f: OUTPUT«0.0099340␤»
20:11 TimToady simple mixins are also wow, though of course later we have to tell them not to do it :)
20:12 brrt ooc, when do you consider a mixin simple?
20:12 TimToady I try to discourage the BEGIN variant, because separate compilation
20:12 TimToady well, 0 but True *looks* simple
20:12 btyler I'd humbly suggest that there's a lot of value in showing things that we don't later need to say "but really that's a poor plan and your future colleagues will not be happy" :)
20:12 brrt ah, yes
20:13 lizmat m: say now - INIT now
20:13 camelia rakudo-moar 54746f: OUTPUT«0.0020325␤»
20:13 brrt btyler: depends on whether we want to continue the perl-is-write-only meme i'd think
20:14 brrt and fwiw, i don't consider that true at all. but the cool tricks of perl5 are also the things that have made its reputation
20:15 * PerlJam remembers a time when regex were black magic to most people and decried in Perl ... then every other language adopted them in some way.
20:17 TimToady m: say bag(<a b c d c d e >).pairs
20:17 camelia rakudo-moar 54746f: OUTPUT«(a => 1 c => 2 b => 1 e => 1 d => 2)␤»
20:17 btyler personally I'd suggest that examples should emphasize concise manipulexity, and if some whipitupitude is also demonstrated, that's mostly a bonus
20:17 TimToady that's pretty cool
20:17 ^elyse^ PerlJam: and they all do it wrong :P
20:17 lizmat m: <a b c d c d e>.Bag.pairs.say
20:17 camelia rakudo-moar 54746f: OUTPUT«(a => 1 c => 2 b => 1 e => 1 d => 2)␤»
20:17 lizmat I like the .Bag better  :-)
20:17 TimToady I don't
20:18 PerlJam ^elyse^: aye, but that's more a symptom of unevenly distributed future
20:20 AlexDaniel ^elyse^: there is fuzzy matching in python's “regex” package. I have no idea whether that's a good idea or not, but it looks very promising.
20:21 AlexDaniel at least enough for me to say “hm, wow”
20:23 [Coke] ... Wow, I have to fix a bug that is impacting our IE8 users in production. Wish me luck.
20:23 btyler alert("go download chrome already!") # wishful thinking
20:23 PerlJam [Coke]: jetison the IE8 users; problem solved!  ;)
20:24 AlexDaniel [Coke]: good luck! Yet it's not IE7, say thanks
20:24 [Coke] oh, these people already have chrome -installed-, even.
20:26 AlexDaniel .oO(… just symlink IE to Chrome)
20:26 pmurias at least it's not IE6
20:27 pmurias grondilu: grammars, maybe some OO
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20:30 pmurias grondilu: if without parens is a small things that I like a lot
20:37 tokuhirom joined #perl6
20:38 * brrt hasn't seen the python regex module
20:39 dalek joined #perl6
20:41 PerlJam dir() looks like it's becoming File::Find-y.   It just needs the recursion bit and File::Find will no longer be needed I think
20:44 AlexDaniel brtt: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/regex this one
20:45 brrt oh thanks
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20:59 lichtkind rurban: ich konnte dir nicht mal ne mail schreiben
21:03 patrickz .seen smls
21:03 yoleaux I saw smls 14 Sep 2015 18:53Z in #perl6: <smls> and pre-GLR, X treated it that way
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21:07 * FROGGS spectests a refactor of Foo:D/Foo:U
21:08 pink_mist is the :U there meant to mean it needs to be undefined? 0_o what's the use of that?
21:08 FROGGS pink_mist: the use to accept only types?
21:09 FROGGS well, you can restrict subs/methods from receiving values
21:09 moritz there are use cases for that in the setting
21:09 moritz multi method ACCEPTS(Mu:U) { } implements type checking via smart matching, for example
21:09 pink_mist ah, fair point
21:10 moritz git grep ':U\b' src/core/|wc -l
21:10 moritz 145
21:10 FROGGS I won't use :U on variables often I guess
21:13 masak m: role Foo[::T] { constant a = T.new }
21:13 camelia rakudo-moar 54746f: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/JijrN9FMqs␤An exception occurred while evaluating a constant␤at /tmp/JijrN9FMqs:1␤Exception details:␤  5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling ␤  Method 'new' not found for invocant of class 'T'␤  …»
21:13 dalek roast: 73fc8c3 | FROGGS++ | S11-modules/importing.t:
21:13 dalek roast: adjust test for typed exception
21:13 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/73fc8c3d37
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21:18 dalek rakudo/nom: 7f0e6a5 | FROGGS++ | src/ (4 files):
21:18 dalek rakudo/nom: refactor Type:D so that it requires an initializer
21:18 dalek rakudo/nom:
21:18 dalek rakudo/nom: Calling .new on the type internally seemed to makes sence when you think
21:18 dalek rakudo/nom: of e.g. Int:D, but it will get problematic quickly when the constructor
21:18 dalek rakudo/nom: would need arguments... Therefore, an initializer has to be specified.
21:18 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7f0e6a56ae
21:19 FROGGS .tell jnthn the initializer is now required... works on vars, attrs but not in sigs: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7f0e6a56ae
21:19 yoleaux FROGGS: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
21:20 FROGGS .tell lizmat can you adjust the weekly so that it states that 'my Int:D $b' is an compile time error?
21:20 yoleaux FROGGS: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
21:20 FROGGS $ perl6 -e 'my Int:D $b'
21:20 FROGGS ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling -e
21:20 FROGGS Variable definition of type Int:D requires an initializer
21:20 laouji joined #perl6
21:21 lizmat FROGGS: will do
21:21 yoleaux 21:20Z <FROGGS> lizmat: can you adjust the weekly so that it states that 'my Int:D $b' is an compile time error?
21:21 FROGGS lizmat: thank you :o)
21:21 FROGGS .tell #perl6 gnight
21:21 yoleaux FROGGS: What kind of a name is "#perl6"?!
21:21 FROGGS pfff
21:21 colomon o/
21:22 lizmat m: my Int:D $b
21:22 camelia rakudo-moar 54746f: ( no output )
21:22 lizmat FROGGS: is that something new?
21:24 lizmat if it *is* something new, I'd rather mention it next week
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21:33 Ulti gtodd sorry dont think I finished the histogram stuff in Stats
21:33 Ulti if you need it I can get back to it :3
21:34 lizmat decommute&
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21:45 masak somewhat confused article with a misleading title, but still somehow nice: http://www.pigdog.org/auto/software_jihad/link/3138.html
21:45 masak up on HN front page right now
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21:52 Ulti there was a bit of an under current of Perl 6 being the next small iteration of Perl in that article
21:53 Zoffix I didn't feel it. I liked the article except for the title.
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22:03 Ulti I liked it too but comparing/contrasting only against Perl 5 to describe Perl 6 feels a little odd to me. In my mind I fit Perl 6 in some weird space between Perl 5, Icon/Unicon and Java
22:04 bjz joined #perl6
22:05 _itz http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2015/10/06/the-night-larry-wall-unveiled-perl-6/
22:06 laouji joined #perl6
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22:08 Ulti Icon especially its like Perl 6 is riffing off of some of the ideas there even stuff like $* variables are like & prefix variables in Icon then you have all the generator lazy list and sequence stuff
22:08 Ulti string scanning in Icon is a bit like a given block with a grammar etc.
22:09 kst _itz: I can't access www.10zenmonkeys.com
22:11 Ulti Icon could have done with the concept of meta operators though, instead of just having an insane number of multi character operators for each built in type
22:11 _itz http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/http://www.10zenmonkeys.com
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22:12 _itz http://developers.slashdot.org/story/15/10/06/217239/larry-wall-unveils-perl-600
22:12 Ulti guess thats what you get with >20 year gap in language development, better abstractions
22:12 masak Perl 600!
22:13 masak it's so weird to read these outside-the-echo-chamber reports on something you're involved in.
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22:14 masak so far, these articles really enjoy making it seem (in the titles) that Perl 6 arrived Just Now.
22:14 _itz https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/3nr0xo/larry_wall_unveils_perl_600/
22:14 Ulti heh fully formed from the hands of the gods
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22:15 pink_mist to be fair, they've been waiting to use that headline for more than 10 years, so I wouldn't blame them for jumping the gun a bit :P
22:16 pink_mist chomping at the bits, as it were
22:16 masak it's using up a finite resource, is all. a bit like the boy who cried wolf did.
22:17 Ulti also once I get my bioinformatics tests to fully pass again I suspect the runtime has gone from 10s to 3s post GLR...
22:18 jevin joined #perl6
22:18 _itz I wonder where the 6.0.0 meme started
22:20 * leont spent yesterday back in bioinformatics land (PhD defence of a friend), gave me some ideas for perl 6
22:21 Ulti leont well there are two different bioinfo repos in Perl 6 plenty of room for a third :D
22:21 TEttinger joined #perl6
22:22 leont He made some interesting observations regarding big data
22:23 leont Almost all current high level tools are based on loading data into ram and then processing them in a single process/thread
22:23 leont This is suboptimal
22:24 thowe joined #perl6
22:24 Ulti huh... apart from all the big data tools which dont do that
22:24 ex-parrot left #perl6
22:25 leont Which aren't really high level tools
22:25 Ulti unless you mean specifically sequence data and stuff like assemblers
22:25 leont (I'm probably phrasing things imprecisely)
22:27 Ulti but yeah research software in general its rare anyone would write it to not be architected in that way
22:27 Ulti I think R now has a Hadoop back end but not sure how it works and what the limitations are?
22:28 Ulti is there a special name for an elephant race? because that should be the name of method that takes a Perl 6 map and runs it via hadoop
22:29 thowe The book "Footfall" might have that name in it.  The aliens were like elephants.
22:30 Ulti well weirdly Germany is famous for elephant racing according to Wikipedia and they love giant weird words
22:30 thowe Oh, that kind of race...  I was thinking "race of beings" not "race to the finish" :P
22:30 Ulti heh
22:31 Ulti no as in .race() :)
22:31 Ulti to the finish line
22:31 Ulti .elefantenrennen()
22:31 Ulti not as catchy as one might hope
22:32 masak 'night, #perl6
22:32 Ulti o/
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22:40 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 258ea01 | coke++ | log/ (9 files):
22:40 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
22:40 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/commit/258ea01f6e
22:40 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 5528913 | coke++ | log/ (9 files):
22:40 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
22:40 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/commit/552891371f
22:40 dalek rakudo-star-daily: d38bb61 | coke++ | log/ (9 files):
22:40 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
22:40 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/commit/d38bb61d1e
22:40 dalek perl6-roast-data: ad0835f | coke++ | / (9 files):
22:40 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
22:40 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/ad0835fdde
22:40 dalek perl6-roast-data: 3343257 | coke++ | / (9 files):
22:40 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
22:40 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/334325773f
22:40 firstdayonthejob joined #perl6
22:40 thowe Is the latest Rakudobrew a good way to get this new release?  Or no?
22:41 thowe Last time I build Rakudo was YAPC::NA
22:41 thowe Where's the big official announcement?  Or is that still waiting for Chistmas?
22:43 [Coke] still waiting. The version you get now is going to be pretty close, though, give it a spin.
22:43 borkus joined #perl6
22:43 thowe I want to.  I love that every number is rational.
22:43 mattprelude joined #perl6
22:43 thowe Is there a Pg module?
22:44 gfldex thowe: list of modules that may or may not work with a newish rakudo http://modules.perl6.org/
22:45 gfldex it's still pretty beta, expect bugs
22:45 pink_mist there's a DBIish .. no clue if there's a Pg driver for it
22:45 gfldex there is: https://github.com/perl6/DBIish/blob/master/lib/DBDish/Pg.pm6
22:46 pink_mist https://github.com/perl6/DBIish/#pg-postgresql yeah, just found this =)
22:46 thowe At this point, for me, it looks like a good place to learn some nifty programming concepts.
22:46 thowe What I've read has blown my mind.
22:47 gfldex thowe: you may want to watch this video then https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpqnNCx7wVY
22:48 thowe That might harm my fragile little head.
22:48 PasserBy joined #perl6
22:48 thowe Is Parrot just not gonna be a thing anymore?
22:48 gfldex jnthn++ tends to be fairly gently with heads that are not his own
22:48 gfldex it looks like Parrot went the way of the Dodo for now
22:49 thowe They seem to continue to release...
22:49 thowe I don't know what people are doing with it.
22:49 thowe But I assume if it stays alive, that it will be one implemenation of Perl6 eventually(?)
22:50 gfldex parrots object system doesnt fit that well to the one perl6 is using
22:50 [Coke] parrot might still be a thing, but its path diverged from Perl 6's several years back.
22:52 thowe oh, 7:30 tonight.
22:52 thowe decent audio/video will be available I hope
22:52 ilmari http://pmthium.com/2015/02/suspending-rakudo-parrot/
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23:02 pdurbin ah. Carl Mäsak on Twitter: "Nope. Projected release date is still this Christmas. #perl6 https://t.co/sL2PsN9sNM" - https://twitter.com/carlmasak/status/651528795053268992
23:07 chenryn_ joined #perl6
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23:12 [Coke] Perl 6 has been releasing every month for years now.
23:13 [Coke] you just got caught up in the excitement. It's OK. :)
23:14 pdurbin well, people on Twitter are excited. I started looking for things tagged as 6.0 but couldn't find anything :)
23:14 ilmari the curren version is 6.Birthday
23:14 ilmari +t
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23:34 gtodd Ulti: I was using the Stats modulle's hist function to try and figure out how given/when would work toset and just print the $bin_size first then figure out how to select units etc. ... the rest of the function would be sort of mechanical (printing horizontal/vertical ascii/utf bars etc.
23:34 Spot__ joined #perl6
23:35 gtodd Ulti: maybe with an eventual plan to hook into a rendering backend/target like R does ? :-) SVG PDF etc etc
23:35 laouji joined #perl6
23:35 gtodd hehe
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23:55 heythee joined #perl6
23:55 heythee hi there
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