Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2015-12-26

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 TEttinger bogosort in your dreams
00:00 timotimo it sometimes feels that way, yeah
00:00 timotimo recently i had a dream where i had a pimple on my forehead. when i tried to get rid of it, a piece of strawberry came out.
00:01 timotimo that feels like "i'm just throwing concepts together to see what sticks"
00:01 TEttinger I had unpleasant dreams where I was in some kind of RPG but my characters kept backstabbing each other and I had a progressively smaller and smaller group to use in battle. then there was a rock and roll battle but no one had any idea how to play instruments
00:01 Juerd Did the piece of strawberry stick?
00:01 RabidGravy I actually find I do about 5 or six useful hours of actual programming in a day, I may think about it for another ten hours but actually writing code five or six
00:01 lizmat lichtkind: "whenever IO::Notification.watch-path('.') { ..." better written as ".".IO.watch"
00:02 Juerd RabidGravy: I usually get only 2 to 3 of them, and then only on good days.
00:02 timotimo RabidGravy: yeah, i hear the brain also does problem solving in the background "for free"
00:02 lichtkind ah thanks
00:02 lizmat lichtkind: well, actually "whenever ".".IO.watch { ...  "   :-)
00:02 lichtkind lizmat, but this way its clearer what it does
00:02 rjbs Hm, when I rakudobrew build-panda  on my newly build moar p6, I get: Function CompUnit::Repository needs parens to avoid gobbling block at bootstrap.pl:30
00:02 rjbs Any tips?
00:03 lizmat nuke install and try again ?
00:03 timotimo rjbs: it doesn't give the extra line about "undefined package"?
00:03 eiro hello anf congratulations everyone
00:03 RabidGravy yeah or "rakudobrew self-upgrade"
00:03 woolfy https://wendyga.wordpress.com/2015/12/25/why-would-you-want-to-use-perl-6-some-answers/
00:03 rjbs I did not see "undefined package"
00:03 Phagus joined #perl6
00:03 * rjbs gives another go
00:03 TEttinger timotimo: that's not far from my life. one time I had a large piece of honeydew rocket out of my nostril. (I knew it was in there because everything on the right half of my nose smelled like honeydew)
00:03 timotimo then your rakudo must be out of date actually :)
00:04 timotimo check to see if it's accidentally using another "perl6" binary somewhere in your system
00:04 rjbs It doesn't use a fully qualified path to the known target?
00:04 RabidGravy I think I'm going back to doing more music in 2016
00:04 timotimo m: given 1 { when Heres::A::Thing { say "oh!" } }
00:04 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Function 'Heres::A::Thing' needs parens to avoid gobbling block (or perhaps it's a class that's not declared or available in this scope?)␤at /tmp/hm_qaVnWYZ:1␤------> 3n 1 { when Heres::A::Thing { say "oh!" }7⏏5 }␤Missing b…»
00:04 TimToady most of us have had to nuke our old install in the last day or two
00:05 timotimo rjbs: it should look more like that ^
00:05 rjbs Okay.  I'm rebuilding.
00:06 lichtkind rjbs++ thanks for patience
00:06 rjbs no worries
00:06 rjbs the real need for patience will come when I see how my code that worked in july is doing :)
00:07 timotimo uh-oh :)
00:07 TimToady pre-GLR is, like, a different language...
00:08 RabidGravy oh mate you're fucked
00:08 lizmat lichtkind: maybe point out that you can also quote special characters, ratther than having to \ each one of them
00:08 rjbs I did a bit of updating of it between now and then.  We'll see. ;)
00:08 stmuk .flat.list as an editor macro
00:09 RabidGravy rjbs, I made some modules this year some of them are already at a version 9 without new features
00:09 timotimo everything magically changes from today on!
00:10 stmuk doesn't magically change! surely?
00:10 stmuk much
00:10 rjbs timotimo: You mean "stops changing" Rright? :)
00:10 rjbs Let me tell you what, people hate it when you changed "released" software.  Believe you me...
00:10 lichtkind lizmat, the only spote where i deliberatly quoted something , it was about that space are not allowed in so many places anymore
00:11 rjbs panda is installed properly after I 'git clean'ed ~/.rakudobrew
00:11 timotimo well, i mean ... the situation module authors find themselves in
00:11 rjbs BTW, I didn't say yet:
00:11 rjbs Congratulations on the big announcement!
00:11 timotimo oh, rakudobrew has a "nuke" option :)
00:11 ZoffixWin \o/
00:12 rjbs First report from running my summer code:
00:12 rjbs Use of the 'pack' function is experimental; please 'use experimental :pack'
00:12 rjbs I'll do more with this another time.  I'm going back to basking in Christmas cheer. ;)
00:13 cxreg the collective formation of idiomatic perl 6 begins now
00:13 lizmat m: my $a = "ݻ"; say $a ~~ /ݻ/   # lichtkind: any other char that's considered alphanumeric according to unicode, is ok also
00:13 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«「ݻ」␤»
00:14 lizmat .u ݻ
00:14 yoleaux U+077B ARABIC LETTER YEH BARREE WITH EXTENDED ARABIC-INDIC DIGIT THREE ABOVE [Lo] (ݻ)
00:14 lichtkind good timing now php7 was released and also swift went open source recently
00:14 timotimo rjbs: i found a use of pack in URI::Encode that was 100x more idiomatic without pack, so maybe you can do something there?
00:14 ZoffixWin Apparently the announcement has been banned from hackernews lol :)
00:15 sivoais Congrats to all and your hard work (even on Christmas, no less) is much appreciated!
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00:15 timotimo as if, ZoffixWin
00:15 lichtkind lizmat sur ebut i didnt even went into that , p6 is so huuge and i only took waht really new, the concepts, less so the syntax, but more article will follow
00:15 timotimo i don't believe that :)
00:15 ZoffixWin timotimo, well, that's what _sri says http://irclog.perlgeek.de/mojo/2015-12-26#i_11778153
00:16 RabidGravy timotimo, I may work up the xbase thing I've got to exercise .unpack/.pack  - it works
00:16 woolfy Message from the Perl6 page on Facebook: "Great news. Smooth build on Mac and Raspberry Pi2. My existing P6 code (a few hundred lines) is all working great."
00:16 timotimo wtf.
00:16 timotimo RabidGravy: i have no idea what "xbase" means?
00:16 RabidGravy yoof!
00:16 Juerd woolfy: Ooh, there's a Perl6 page on Facebook? *joining*
00:17 Juerd woolfy: Thanks for accepting my join request :)
00:17 woolfy And since I'm an admin, I accepted your request in mere seconds!
00:17 Juerd Yeah, that was FAST.
00:17 woolfy :-)
00:18 RabidGravy timotimo,  ancieunte "database"  format based on Ashton-Tate's dBase IV  but more widely used with foxpro and stuff.
00:18 rjbs timotimo: Maybe, but I'm packing numbers into 'n' for storaging in a binary format.  pack seems right.
00:18 timotimo oh, huh.
00:18 Juerd rjbs, RabidGravy, ZoffixWin: Any comments on https://gist.github.com/Juerd/ae574b87d40a66649692 are welcome
00:18 timotimo rjbs: right, that sounds like what you'd use.
00:18 Juerd (Only harrassing you because you mentioned pack/unpack :P)
00:18 timotimo okay, i'm off to bed!
00:18 timotimo gnite, friends!
00:19 Juerd Good night timotimo :)
00:19 ZoffixWin Juerd, did I? :)
00:19 woolfy timotimo++ deserves the rest
00:19 timotimo nah, i just want to be off the 'net when all the trolls and haters notice :)
00:19 Juerd ZoffixWin: Oh, I seem to have misread somehow.
00:19 lizmat gnight timotimo
00:20 * Juerd laughs at the trolls and haters
00:20 ZoffixWin Juerd, that stuff's over my head, but looks better than all the P5's codes in unpack though, so I like it. Those are my 2 cents :)
00:20 lizmat lichtkind: ok, then just maybe say "everything that unicode does not consider alphanumeric, needs to be escaped by either \ or quoting
00:21 Juerd Even in the absolute worst case, that nobody dares to use Perl 6 for actual production, this language will definitely change computing as we know it. Future languages will all borrow features from it.
00:21 * ZoffixWin nods
00:21 * lizmat agrees
00:21 lizmat echo echo echo  :-)
00:21 Juerd say say say ;)
00:22 [Coke] Thanks to everyone who made today's release pretty boring in terms of getting it cut.
00:22 RabidGravy Juerd, what I'd like to see is something similar to NativeCall CStruct where you can define a class that has sufficient information to pick the bits out of a blob
00:22 woolfy [Coke]++
00:22 RabidGravy I can fake this now using .unpack but more fun built in
00:22 lizmat [Coke]: I *did* try to make it interesting  :-)
00:23 Juerd RabidGravy: I've thought about that but I can't think of any syntax for byte length and count prefixes.
00:23 [Coke] lizmat: troublemakers like you aside...
00:23 [Coke] seriously, thanks for the last minute cleanups from you.
00:23 * lizmat takes that as she heads off to bed
00:23 lizmat [Coke]: you're welcome
00:23 Juerd RabidGravy: Structs are fixed size, unpack does things where the size is encoded in the data itself
00:23 lizmat good night, #perl6!
00:23 TimToady night, thanks!
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00:24 Juerd Good night
00:24 Juerd Hello hidden_noob
00:24 RabidGravy Juerd, I've gone for traits
00:24 Juerd RabidGravy: Do traits work on groups of attributes, though? :)
00:25 RabidGravy but yeah the case that you mention is actually better handled by raw .unpack
00:25 Juerd RabidGravy: Protocol and file formats may very well encode stuff like "following right now are 5 blocks of this structlike data"
00:25 Juerd Although a substruct might work...
00:25 RabidGravy think about that again
00:26 Juerd What do you mean?
00:26 RabidGravy there will have to be ^some^ code
00:26 lichtkind lizmat, i did said that, but without the word unicode
00:26 lichtkind did say
00:27 Juerd RabidGravy: I don't understand. Some context could perhaps help.
00:28 skids The cstruct/unpack/pack thing should be as declarative as possible, under the same general priciple of semanic markup -- you don't want to tie it to a particular use case.
00:28 RabidGravy so say a MIDI file, it has a header which says how many tracks there are
00:28 skids (IMHO)
00:29 RabidGravy so the header is read and then you read n tracks
00:29 Juerd skids: I agree but I don't know what that means for its implementation.
00:29 RabidGravy based on the hreader
00:29 skids I think we need to try a bottom up implementation and then rework it form the top down.  It's not going to "spring fully formed" from anything.
00:30 cxreg now to summan The Damian to produce piles of antipatterns
00:30 RabidGravy yeah
00:30 Juerd skids: So what's the bottom and what's the top?
00:30 raiph joined #perl6
00:31 skids Bottom is ints, sized types, endianness, TLVs.
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00:32 Juerd I may be poisoned by Perl 5's pack too much.
00:32 Juerd I've used it quite a lot and the only itch I have to scratch is syntax, really :|
00:32 RabidGravy I think the two things I have in flight I may re-implement withought using unpack
00:32 RabidGravy and see where that takes me
00:33 RabidGravy the standard MIDI file is quite a good example
00:33 jberger Congratulations everyone, keep it up
00:34 ZoffixWin \o/
00:34 jberger And be sure to share around the interwebs
00:34 skids Top is more dynamic and self-referential things: selecting from among various structures via tags, dealing with fragment reassembly, and working well with class/role constructs to share declarations between codebases.
00:36 skids RabidGravy: I'm coming from the network packet side of things -- lots of overlap, perhaps more encapsulation than data formats.
00:38 rurban joined #perl6
00:38 RabidGravy I think it's make the stuff we want without Buf.unpack and then see how it converges
00:38 RabidGravy anyway I've gotta crash
00:38 virtualsue it's about that time
00:39 RabidGravy it is
00:45 woolfy I go to sleep. Snoring time.  Thank you all for a great night, excellent work, wonderful result.  Perl6++
00:46 davercc joined #perl6
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00:51 TimToady Congratulations everyone.  Tomorrow we move to stage 3: then they fight you.  :)
00:52 grondilu jnthn wrote that the priority will be performance and stuff, but I kind of was hoping that he would help pmurias with the javascript backend.
00:52 TimToady no, that's *your* job :)
00:53 TimToady then we can put alternate JS entries on rosettacode that just call into Perl 6 :)
00:54 TimToady then we do that for all the other languages, and we're done
00:57 lichtkind god night
00:57 TimToady o/
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01:31 Juerd I just realized... I haven't seen it called PERL 6 yet. :)
01:31 diakopter that question comes every year or two here
01:32 diakopter "how is PERL 6 going"
01:32 Juerd Well, once every two years is a pretty good score :)
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02:01 richi235 Hi, is it okay to ask questions on "rakudobrew build-panda" failing, when i couldn't find anything on google?
02:02 richi235 or is thera an extra channel for "user" questions?
02:02 cxreg what's the error?
02:03 ZoffixWin richi235, this is the channel.
02:03 richi235 cxreg:
02:03 richi235 Could not find MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL in:
02:03 richi235 /home/richi/.rakudobrew/moar-nom/panda/ext/File__Find/lib
02:03 richi235 /home/richi/.rakudobrew/moar-nom/panda/ext/Shell__Command/lib
02:04 cxreg sounds like the rakudo build is older than the panda build
02:04 ZoffixWin richi235, sounds like you could benefit from nuking ~/.rakudobrew and ~/.perl6 and starting from scratch
02:04 cxreg possibly just "rakudobrew build moar"
02:04 cxreg if not, then wipe and start over
02:05 richi235 cxreg, ZoffixWin: that sounds fitting i did "rakudobrew build moar 2015.12" before
02:05 richi235 so they don't match
02:06 richi235 but possibly you also should upgrade the instructions on http://perl6.org/downloads/
02:07 richi235 well, I'll try out and come again if I fixed it
02:08 richi235 thanks
02:08 TimToady the instructions are somewhat optimized for people who are starting new, not folks who've tried it before, I guess
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02:11 grondilu maybe an efficient dist-clean entry should be added to the Makefile.
02:12 grondilu with all the directories created for install, cleaning everything manually is not trivial.
02:12 cxreg that would help
02:13 grondilu I mean I have /usr/local/share/perl6, $HOME/.perl6/, and certainly others
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02:13 grondilu it's quite a mess
02:14 * grondilu tries bootstrapping panda and is not optimistic
02:16 richi235 well deployment is often not easy and anoying
02:16 richi235 I sometimes think it's the most uncomfortable part of software development (given you don't have to deal with customers :) )
02:16 herby_ joined #perl6
02:17 herby_ Good evening, everyone!
02:17 TimToady howdy!
02:17 richi235 Hi
02:19 grondilu yeah, it failed as expected.  Lots of MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL messages
02:19 dalek rakudo-star-daily: b5ccf19 | coke++ | log/ (8 files):
02:19 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
02:19 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/commit/b5ccf19b3a
02:20 grondilu I guess I should rm /usr/local/share/perl6/sources/*
02:20 bpmedley Congratulations
02:21 [Coke] Thank you
02:21 richi235 btw what does the nom stand for in moar-nom ?
02:22 TimToady New Object Model
02:22 TimToady not so new anymore :)
02:22 richi235 :) thx
02:22 grondilu see S99
02:22 flussence it's new until it needs replacing, thankfully it doesn't :)
02:23 richi235 like new-technology in windows NT :p
02:23 TimToady that why Oxford still has a New College?
02:24 colomon joined #perl6
02:24 grondilu New-York is not such a new city either :P
02:25 ZoffixWin We clearly need to rename it to New New York, to keep up with Futurama
02:25 richi235 okay "rakudobrew build-panda" works after "rakudobrew build moar" ; but it doesn't work after "rakudobrew build moar 2015.12"
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02:27 TimToady curious
02:28 grondilu anybody knows who's made the rakudo debian package?  It's terribly old, hopefully they'll make an other one soon.
02:28 TimToady might possibly need a rakudobrew switch or some such
02:29 Juerd 245 retweets of @TimToady's announcement. I wonder if Twitter at some point stops sending email notifications for those, or if TimToady now has a few hundred retweet emails...
02:29 grondilu it probably batches them
02:30 grondilu on debian jessie, the version of rakudo is 2014.07-4
02:30 grondilu not that I worry much about it as I use the git repo, but still it'd be nice to have an updated debian package.
02:33 AlexDaniel grondilu: not really
02:33 AlexDaniel grondilu: first of all, it is 2015.09-2 in unstable
02:33 richi235 Dominique Dumont <dod@debian.org>
02:33 richi235 http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs/main/r/rakudo/rakudo_2014.07-4_changelog
02:33 AlexDaniel and secondly, I emailed him :)
02:34 AlexDaniel he said that he will work on it “next week”
02:34 grondilu yeah, my bad.  Somehow I did not even consider the unstable branch.
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02:36 AlexDaniel I do agree that Debian package is needed, and I do agree that it is too bad that it will only come next week… But I'm not sure if we can do something about it besides what was already done
02:38 geekosaur with debian? not a whole lot
02:38 diakopter perl6 -V is, like, eww
02:39 diakopter perl6::language_version=6.c
02:39 diakopter perl6::codename=
02:39 diakopter perl6::release-number=
02:40 AlexDaniel diakopter: how did you find it? :)
02:40 geekosaur debian's still shipping ghc 7.6.3; current is 7.10.3 and 8.0.1 is in release engineering
02:40 diakopter AlexDaniel: how did I find the -V flag?
02:40 AlexDaniel diakopter: yes
02:41 diakopter muscle memory from installing perl
02:41 AlexDaniel hah!
02:41 diakopter why teh such funny
02:42 AlexDaniel diakopter: it just makes me wonder how many undocumented flags are there
02:46 grondilu AlexDaniel: yeah debian packaging is not simple matter.  Not much can be done apart from politely noticing those who can do it.
02:46 AlexDaniel grondilu: I'm happy that somebody is taking care of it
02:46 AlexDaniel grondilu: even if it is delayed all the time
02:47 grondilu yep, agred.
02:47 leont I'm not sure the new default compilationunit-repo is compatible with debian's ideas of how and where to install things
02:49 grondilu maybe they should be considered as librairies and put in a lib/ directory somewhere.
02:50 grondilu though it's porbably more complicated than that
02:56 richi235 Hmm, I just tried:
02:56 richi235 % rakudobrew build moar 2015.12
02:56 richi235 % rakudobrew build-panda
02:56 richi235 on my clean server (debian stable) there build-panda works
02:57 richi235 so jep, on my notebook it seems to be some leftover from the previous version ~/.rakudobrew which rakudobrew doesn't cleanly isolate
02:58 dalek doc: ee5c39e | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod:
02:58 dalek doc: doc Sequential Operators and Zip Operators
02:58 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/ee5c39ec09
02:58 dalek doc: 95a0aab | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod:
02:58 dalek doc: Merge pull request #270 from gfldex/master
02:58 dalek doc:
02:58 dalek doc: doc Sequential Operators and Zip Operators
02:59 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/95a0aab2e5
03:01 grondilu panda works for me now.  I did have to remove all /usr/local/share/perl6/.
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03:11 dalek doc: 97cdd3d | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod:
03:11 dalek doc: doc Nesting of Meta Operators
03:11 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/97cdd3d810
03:11 dalek doc: 258811b | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod:
03:11 dalek doc: Merge pull request #271 from gfldex/master
03:11 dalek doc:
03:11 dalek doc: doc Nesting of Meta Operators
03:11 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/258811b21f
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03:15 grondilu hum not so fast.  I thought it was working fine but it doesn't:
03:16 grondilu ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /usr/local/src/panda/.panda-work/1451098568_4/lib/Shell/Command.pm
03:16 grondilu Malformed parameter
03:16 grondilu at /usr/local/src/panda/.panda-work/1451098568_4/lib/Shell/Command.pm:47
03:16 grondilu ------> sub cp($from⏏ as Str, $to as Str, :$r) is export {
03:16 grondilu expecting any of:
03:16 grondilu constraint
03:17 grondilu wth is this syntax?  sub foo($thing as Type) {...}
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03:17 TimToady old syntax for Type() $thing
03:17 hobbs Merry Christmas!
03:17 TimToady and that's an old Shell::Command
03:17 TimToady that was fixed yesterday or so
03:18 grondilu should I wipe the .panda-work dir or somthing?
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03:18 TimToady yeah, mebbe
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03:30 atweiden can anyone explain what tools/build/install-core-dist.pl does exactly?
03:30 atweiden in rakudo tree
03:30 atweiden is it compiling anything?
03:30 flussence looks like that's *all* it does, actually
03:31 llfourn it's installing the core modules
03:31 llfourn like Test, NativeCall etc
03:31 atweiden llfourn installing as in `cp` to path, or is it running perl6?
03:31 TimToady if you set RAKUDO_LOG_PRECOMP=1 it'll say what it's doing, though the filenames are all sha-1 hashes
03:32 TimToady it's precompiling and saving bytecode
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03:32 TimToady so, for instance, when all the Tests say 'use Test', you don't really want to recompile Test.pm6 every time
03:33 grondilu well that's just weird : I did rm .panda-work, pulled the latest panda, and still I get the same error in Sell/Command.pm
03:33 TimToady this way, you don't
03:33 atweiden i see
03:35 dalek DBIish: e14cda2 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | lib/DBDish/Role/ErrorHandling.pm6:
03:35 dalek DBIish: “Rais” → “Raise”
03:35 dalek DBIish:
03:35 dalek DBIish: Just a typo
03:35 dalek DBIish: review: https://github.com/perl6/DBIish/commit/e14cda2f50
03:35 atweiden are all modules supposed to be precompiled now?
03:36 AlexDaniel dammit, it is “Error”, not “Errors”
03:36 atweiden i've been installing them to /usr/share/perl6/vendor by simple `cp`
03:36 atweiden e.g. https://aur.archlinux.org/cgit/aur.git/tree/PKGBUILD?h=perl6-grammar-debugger
03:37 llfourn atweiden: pretty much anything you load will be precompiled if it can I think. The core dist stuff is just precompiled before you even use it.
03:38 llfourn I think there might be a right way to do that now rahter than just cp
03:38 llfourn (though that should work in terms of precomp anyway)
03:38 atweiden dang! i had such a nice system going with pacman
03:39 richi235 An short question: Every perl6 example i looked at didn't have an "#!/usr/bin/env perl6" line on the top, just: "use v6;"
03:39 richi235 like in https://github.com/perl6/perl6-examples/blob/master/categories/cookbook/03dates-and-times/03-01-todays-date.pl
03:39 richi235 does this have a particular reason?
03:39 dalek DBIish: 2181b11 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | lib/DBDish/Role/ErrorHandling.pm6:
03:39 dalek DBIish: “RaiseErrors” → “RaiseError”
03:39 dalek DBIish:
03:39 dalek DBIish: Another “just a typo”
03:39 dalek DBIish: review: https://github.com/perl6/DBIish/commit/2181b115fb
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03:39 llfourn atweiden: I have no knowledge of distribution pkg maintainers best practices or whether anyone does :)
03:40 grondilu shebangs are necessary only if you want to make your file executable
03:40 grondilu that's not specific to perl 6
03:40 AlexDaniel But I'd say that you should have a shebang no matter how you run it (unless it is a lib)
03:40 grondilu AlexDaniel: I disagree
03:41 AlexDaniel grondilu: perhaps! Why?
03:41 grondilu I don't see why you'd put a shebang everywhere.  Looks like a security hazard to me.
03:41 llfourn if it's in /bin it should have a shebangs I guess
03:41 richi235 grondilu: I know that, ah so all the examples simply weren't designed to be used as executables
03:42 llfourn richi235: nope
03:42 AlexDaniel richi235: well, basically all examples are just code examples, not file examples :)
03:42 llfourn perl6 myscript.p6 is the way they are meant to run :)
03:42 AlexDaniel richi235: there no one universal way to write a shebang anyway
03:43 atweiden flussence: i weep with this rel, i even install vim plugins with pacman :)
03:43 * grondilu is not even sure shebangs work on all OS
03:43 richi235 im quite happy with the #!/usr/bin/env thing
03:43 AlexDaniel grondilu: they don't
03:43 grondilu richi235: yes you can't go wrong with /usr/bin/env
03:43 AlexDaniel grondilu: but in such case they are just treated as comments, so no problem
03:44 atweiden it appears the solution may be rakudobrew
03:44 geekosaur even on unixlikes, you can find very old ones that won't support them
03:44 * flussence wants to dig into the innards of the compunit stuff anyway, and have an entire repo of ebuilds autogenerated from META.list some day...
03:44 AlexDaniel grondilu: but what is this security hazard thing you are talking about?
03:44 geekosaur and there's a sting in the tail there: those systems often come with an ancient csh that will take first-char-of-script being # to mean it's csh instead of sh
03:44 * llfourn is working on something to build docs from META.list
03:44 geekosaur (you can on those csh version work around that with "alias shell" though0
03:44 AlexDaniel geekosaur: jeez…
03:45 grondilu AlexDaniel: nvm, I was probably just wrong.  I'm no expert whatsoever in these stuff.
03:47 * grondilu sadly thinks that he's no expert in anything
03:47 geekosaur note also though that anyone on those systems *already* has to work around shebang issues to use anything produced after 4.3BSD shipped
03:47 geekosaur the env hack has a potential security issue
03:47 AlexDaniel there are downsides to “/usr/bin/env perl6” too. Basically it means “whatever perl6 is”, but sometimes you want “the one that was actually installed”, in which case it might make sense to hardcode it to /usr/bin/env for example
03:47 AlexDaniel oops
03:47 AlexDaniel to /usr/bin/perl6
03:47 geekosaur since it searches $PATH and one of the reasons to use a shebang is to ensure that a known-safe executable is run
03:48 geekosaur instead of trusting the user's $PATH
03:49 * flussence wonders what #!/usr/bin/env $foo does that #!$foo doesn't (have seen both forms, but the latter is rare)
03:49 geekosaur well, let me correct that "anything produced after" --- the 4.3 one was when csh stopped thinking sh didn't have # comments (because it didn't until 4.3BSD). it's older System III/System V that will lack shebang
03:49 AlexDaniel richi235: ↑ so even if we really wanted to include a shebang everywhere… You see? :)
03:49 geekosaur but we're talking machines that are around 20 years old now
03:49 richi235 AlexDaniel: yeah there's no 100% solution^^
03:50 geekosaur flussence: maybe some OSes will do PATH search for an unqualified filename there. Most won't
03:50 AlexDaniel geekosaur: perhaps a good rule of thumb is to ignore everything that is older than Perl 6? :)
03:50 richi235 but then we would have to ignore emacs :(
03:51 geekosaur in particular anything BSDish won't (including free/net/open and OS X)
03:51 AlexDaniel richi235: don't worry about emacs, it will take care of itself. perl6-mode is working great, by the way
03:53 llfourn perl6-mode is awesome. ++whoeverisresponsible
03:53 grondilu what's perl6-mode?
03:53 geekosaur flussence, also if you are thinking of Perl scripts with #!perl at the top, that is a hack for perl 5
03:54 mempko joined #perl6
03:54 llfourn grondilu: https://github.com/hinrik/perl6-mode
03:54 richi235 ah thx, *switching to emacs package manager*
03:54 geekosaur as a backward compatibility shim for systems without #! in the kernel, it will look at a shebang line and exec the program named there --- unless the program named there is "perl" (possibly with some underscores)
03:54 richi235 uhh with flycheck support :)
03:55 grondilu oh, ok.  It so happens that I looked into emacs lately.  Thought I would have to look for a perl6 mode at some point.
03:55 geekosaur so some perl scripts have "#!perl" to avoid perl doing something weird at them
03:56 geekosaur (this was designed originally for use with the ancient-csh "alias shell" feature, iirc --- you aliased "shell" to your perl executable, and unknown scripts would then be passed to perl to run, which would interpret the shebang)
03:57 * llfourn absorbs the knowledge of the ancients from geekosaur
03:58 geekosaur that's a waste of neurons imo :p
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03:58 geekosaur if this is useful information to anyone, they really need to find an environment that isn't over 20 years old
03:58 * llfourn removes the knowledge of the ancients to save neurons
04:00 geekosaur also I dearly hope at least some of that cruft has been removed from modern perl5 versions
04:01 geekosaur (more than 20 years old --- "alias shell" should have been pretty much obsolete by 1986, so 30 years!)
04:02 * llfourn is glad he
04:02 * llfourn glad he's born in the age after alias shell
04:03 hobbs nope, it's used on what are still supported platforms
04:03 hobbs the "exec a totally different interpreter" thing not so much, but the switch parsing is definitely needed
04:03 geekosaur switch parsing, yes, but that's different
04:04 geekosaur exec-ing different things unless those things are perl, perl_, perl__, etc. --- ugh
04:04 hobbs yeah, that probably causes more confusion than benefit by now
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04:06 hobbs perl5 generally doesn't like to break anyone's running system, but the overlap between people who depend on that feature, and people running a perl <10 years old is probably very small :)
04:10 AlexDaniel hobbs: perl 5.8 is still a thing
04:11 TimToady 5.6 is best forgotten, since that's the last Perl TimToady worked on before Perl 6 :)
04:11 * TimToady was still feeling he way into Unicode at that point
04:11 AlexDaniel hobbs: 5.8.8 is more popular than 5.8.0 though, but that's exactly 10 years
04:12 TimToady *his way
04:12 llfourn I met a guy who couldn't get his company to upgrade > 5.8.x the other day :(
04:13 flussence better > than >=...
04:14 AlexDaniel this is probably not the best graph, but take a look: https://files.progarm.org/perl-versionsM.png . This is what we got when we looked at Oddmuse users this year.
04:14 hobbs AlexDaniel:  yeah, I'm well aware :)
04:15 * geekosaur supports enterprise level customers who refuse to install upgrades to stuff like that unless they come from the OS vendor. rhel6 is still perl 5.8.x
04:15 flussence looks like a debian-ish graph
04:16 AlexDaniel flussence: sure, no surprise there
04:16 * flussence recalls debian getting most of 5.10..5.20 before gentoo :)
04:16 hobbs AlexDaniel:  and that's sort of my point. Keeping backcompat is sometimes less important than it seems, because the people you would be inconveniencing are perpetually on 5.8.8 anyway :)
04:17 hobbs if not 5.005_04 :)
04:17 geekosaur my last job, the supported perl was 5.005_03
04:18 AlexDaniel hobbs: well, once we bumped the lowest supported version of perl to v5.10 (from v5.8.8) there were some people who came in and complained, soo…
04:18 geekosaur I did manage to get a newer one on some platforms (5.8ish) but we still had to assume 5.005_03 for anything intended to run on any supported machine :/
04:20 geekosaur (then again I was still cleaning the occasional pmax_ul4 cruft out of support before I left)
04:21 geekosaur (that's DECsystem 5000/25 and 5000/30 running Ultrix 4.x)
04:28 richi235 When all the example are thought to be run with "perl6 example.pl" anyway, then what's the "use v6;" line for?
04:28 richi235 deleting it produces no error
04:28 llfourn richi235: in case you try to run it with perl 5 :P
04:28 richi235 ahh okay, lol
04:29 AlexDaniel has anybody tried writing scripts that are compatible with both perl5 and perl6?
04:29 llfourn I don't use v6 much though come to think of it are we meant to be writing use v6.c now?
04:33 * geekosaur just remembered another hideous use of #!perl
04:33 geekosaur magic option that caused perl to skip until it saw that, so stuff before could be lines of hacks to get various systems to feed it to perl
04:35 geekosaur (-S, I think?)
04:35 kanishka joined #perl6
04:35 hobbs oh yeah :)
04:37 myu joined #perl6
04:37 dalek doc/autarch/use-perl6-org-design: 698bba7 | (Dave Rolsky)++ | doc/ (2 files):
04:37 dalek doc/autarch/use-perl6-org-design: Rename doc/HomePage.pod -> doc/index.html
04:37 dalek doc/autarch/use-perl6-org-design:
04:37 dalek doc/autarch/use-perl6-org-design: The file is basically all HTML, so pretending its Pod doesn't really make
04:37 dalek doc/autarch/use-perl6-org-design: anything easier.
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04:40 geekosaur actually -x. I think -S was a path search so perl could try to find the script after the system command processor passed it a basename
04:41 TimToady well, -x was really intended to allow people to pipe their Usenet news articles to perl -x to run the embedded script :)
04:42 TimToady people were more trusting those days...
04:42 hobbs were they? Think how many sites have you curl | perl or curl | sh something :)
04:43 hobbs (for dev stuff anyway)
04:43 llfourn curl | sh is the best part of devops
04:45 llfourn is it any worse than installing a perl pacakage from cpan from someone you don't trust?
04:46 llfourn either way you have to trust the code you are going to be executing whether it's in a usenet article, a cpan module or a curl|sh
04:48 hobbs yeah, not incredibly much
04:48 hobbs actually there *was* more trust back then, which is why perl modules have a build process that's entirely impossible to lock down :)
04:48 llfourn I suppose cpan modules can have author signatures? so that might protect againt man in the middle...
04:49 atweiden breakage of Config::TOML occured between 2015.11 and 2015.12, but I can't make heads or tails of this error message:
04:49 atweiden expected Array[Str] but got Array[Str].new("<a>")
04:49 atweiden it's supposed to return an array of strings, and the first element is "<a>"
04:49 atweiden type checker doesn't like it
04:50 llfourn m: sub (Array[Str]:U) { }.(Array[Str].new("<a>"))
04:50 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/IaJAcy9Dyc␤Invalid typename 'U' in parameter declaration.␤at /tmp/IaJAcy9Dyc:1␤------> 3sub (Array[Str]:U7⏏5) { }.(Array[Str].new("<a>"))␤»
04:50 llfourn m: sub (Array[Str:U]) { }.(Array[Str].new("<a>"))
04:50 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding <anon>; expected Array[Str:U] but got Array[Str]␤  in sub  at /tmp/WiZKj0b0P_ line 1␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/WiZKj0b0P_ line 1␤␤»
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04:51 llfourn atweiden: mmm what you are seeing looks like a bug
04:51 hobbs llfourn:  they can, but very little is signed.
04:53 llfourn m: say sub (Array[Str]) { }.(Array[Str].new("<a>"))
04:53 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
04:56 llfourn hobbs: I like curl | sh, one of my Perl 6 projects is a slang that compiles shell scripts. like File</etc/conf.cfg>->remove compiles to rm /etc/conf.cfg
04:56 llfourn plan is to have some kind of web service that returns you dynamic shell scripts based on HTTP request
04:57 hobbs that's pretty cool
04:57 hobbs I need to come up with something interesting to do with Perl 6, I never really dig into a language otherwise
04:58 hobbs I have nine free days to do it in, just need the right inspiration :)
04:59 atweiden llfourn: the good news is, this one bug is the cause of all Config::TOML failing tests
05:00 llfourn atweiden: see if you can golf it then rakudobug@perl.org :)
05:01 llfourn hobbs: I don't know but I think that hacking the p6 grammar is pretty fun :)
05:02 llfourn also there's lot's to explore in metaprogramming
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05:19 ugexe dumping the entire JSON structure for a json parsing exception seems a little overzealous
05:22 thomax joined #perl6
05:25 AlexDaniel llfourn: well, but what are the alternatives? Installing a package from your distribution repository might sound like a good idea, but nobody said that the package maintainer will be executed if one day he decides to include a bunch of evil stuff. I don't really remember such incidents though
05:26 AlexDaniel MITM attacks when curling something into sh? Well, there's HTTPS nowadays, soo… even though it is not perfect, the risk is kinda minimized
05:26 llfourn AlexDaniel: I totally agree. I'm not saying they're bad I'm just saying neither is curl |sh.
05:27 llfourn though author pub keys can be pre-distributed so technically they are another check on top of ssl
05:27 hobbs servers that a lot of people install things off of are targets for attack
05:27 hobbs you don't need to MITM it when you can be the man-at-the-end :)
05:28 hobbs signing generally makes that harder
05:28 AlexDaniel llfourn: but then again, how would you know that it is a pub key of the author? :)
05:29 llfourn AlexDaniel: if your downloading it in the same env as the one you are downloading the pkg you wouldn't but you *could* already have it
05:29 llfourn so the attacker would be unable to sign with they key you already trust even if they were able to plant a corrupt one.
05:30 AlexDaniel true, true.
05:31 llfourn though tbh I've never worked with any of this in practice just what I guess is the rational
05:32 AlexDaniel llfourn: well… in practice it is all about “ah screw it, here is a http://… link that you can pipe into bash”
05:32 Sm4rkey joined #perl6
05:32 llfourn curl http:// | sudo bash :D
05:34 llfourn but nowadays I am often doing this kind of stuff on short lived VPS for my own experiments so for me it's no so serious
05:35 llfourn (or docker)
05:35 AlexDaniel and also, there is a high chance that this little package that you want to install will have 50 dependencies, so somehow you have to make sure that there's nothing wrong with all of them… it's such a pain
05:35 AlexDaniel llfourn: docker is actually very promising
05:35 llfourn AlexDaniel: exactly! and .sh is quite easy to inspect
05:42 llfourn AlexDaniel: I just remember that you install docker via curl |sh
05:42 llfourn or used to at least
05:42 llfourn https://get.docker.com/
05:48 awwaiid so I should rakudobrew 2015.12 rather than v6.c?
05:49 [Coke] I would, yes.
05:49 AlexDaniel what's the difference?
05:49 awwaiid what's the diff, why we have both?
05:49 [Coke] there is a v6.c tag, but it's basically, "this is the release we started supporting this compiler"
05:49 awwaiid maybe some of those rakudobrew list results should be trimmed :)
05:49 [Coke] er, sorry, "this language version"
05:49 [Coke] We did it with v6.b, I just continued the tradition.
05:49 xpen joined #perl6
05:50 TimToady Rakudo comes in 2015s, Perl comes in 5's and 6's
05:50 awwaiid mmm. So are they identical?
05:50 TimToady apples and orangatans
05:50 awwaiid ah. delicious and fuzzy how i like it
05:50 TimToady one is a compiler, the other is a language
05:51 awwaiid ya, makes sense. But v6.c is listed as an option in rakudobrew is what was surprising me
05:51 TimToady in January you'll rakudobrew 2015.01, but it'll still be 6.c (we sincerely hope)
05:52 TimToady s/be/implement/
05:52 TimToady er 2016.01
05:52 awwaiid s/2015.01/2015.01/ ya.
05:52 awwaiid er
05:52 awwaiid even better
05:52 loren 2016 ..
05:52 TimToady just can't type that number yet, any of us
05:53 awwaiid so if I rakudobrew install v6.c can I just er... update it at random?
05:53 awwaiid (like I do with nom nom nom)
05:53 TimToady it should say "I don't know any rakudo version 6.c
05:54 TimToady well, it'd be build rather than install anyway
05:54 awwaiid ya, is what I meant
05:54 TimToady it'll presumably continue to default to the latest version
05:55 awwaiid oh? I thought it was defaulting to nom when you do "rakudobrew build moar"
05:57 awwaiid TimToady: this whole thing -- language, release-event, community, all that -- is great. Thank you :)
05:58 TimToady you're welcome, I don't know what else I'd've done with my life if not this :)
05:58 ZoffixWin :D
05:58 awwaiid It's best to keep busy :)
05:58 ZoffixWin \o/
05:58 loren ..Great!!
05:59 TimToady well, I'd probably have ended up an orchestra director
06:00 awwaiid Not a bad alternative, sounds fun too.
06:01 awwaiid or maybe they're basically the same? hmmmmm
06:01 TimToady they both involve playing people like an instrument :)
06:02 awwaiid hehe
06:02 llfourn probably less receptive to LOTR references though
06:03 TimToady and both of them work best with just the right amount of direction, not too much, not too little
06:03 TimToady both involve anticipating things just in time
06:03 awwaiid llfourn and ZoffixWin since I have two doc types here -- has anyone thought about some way to tie/verify roast w/ doc? I'm slowly noodling something like what rakudo does, where doc maybe pulls in roast and can take some hints from it to know how the low-level doc coverage is doing
06:03 TimToady both involve understanding large-scale structure and what has to happen right now
06:04 autarch but one involves _way_ more tuxes and fewer hawaiin shirts
06:04 autarch I look forward to the next State of the Onion done in a tux though!
06:04 TimToady sometimes just looking at a group of performers is enough to cue them; sometimes you have to be more obvious
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06:05 TimToady both of them require a degree of self-caricature to get results
06:05 llfourn awwaiid: what is roast be used for? to see what we are missing in terms of doc coverage?
06:05 awwaiid llfourn: yes
06:06 awwaiid llfourn: might mean some annotations in roast
06:06 awwaiid (and some annotations in doc)
06:06 llfourn awwaiid: interesting idea. How do you tell if something has or hasn't been doc'd from roast?
06:06 awwaiid well. I haven't actually worked it out yet :)
06:07 awwaiid just noodling a bit. I'll see if I can come up with a proof of concept. One of the things that has been bothering me is not just our weak doc coverage but the lack of progress-meter
06:07 llfourn well if it's possible it would be cool! but I'm not sure how it works...
06:09 llfourn awwaiid: a "what is known to be undocumented" page in the docs themselves would be great IMO both for users and contributors
06:16 nige1 joined #perl6
06:16 hobbs llfourn: maybe Larry could have grown up to be Howard Shore! :)
06:16 * llfourn didn't think of that
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06:29 dalek doc: daae6df | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod:
06:29 dalek doc: interpolation for hash (slices) has changed too
06:29 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/daae6df38f
06:29 dalek doc: 98deab8 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod:
06:29 dalek doc: Merge pull request #272 from gfldex/master
06:29 dalek doc:
06:29 dalek doc: interpolation for hash (slices) has changed too
06:29 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/98deab854b
06:29 thomax ok, now i need a p6 job. best way to learn a new language ;-)
06:33 myu joined #perl6
06:34 thomax i just hope epic, the eclipse perl integration, will adopt p6. would be a ++ for the language.
06:35 llfourn thomax: last time I used that it didn't work properly for p5 :\
06:36 llfourn I think the atom editor has p6 highlighting which is cool
06:36 thomax llfourn: for me it is a big help! running vrapper + epic in eclipse is a big time saver
06:36 vivek joined #perl6
06:36 * llfourn looks up vrapper
06:37 thomax oh,it's vi. more or less.
06:37 llfourn oh why don't you just use vim?
06:38 gfldex vim can be confused both by p5 and p6 code
06:38 AlexDaniel Hmm, what about Perl 6 editor written in Perl 6? At least it will be relatively easy to parse code this way.
06:38 gfldex may be a little slow for large files
06:39 gfldex and it would need to be able to handle slangs that come from modules
06:39 llfourn yeah I think outsourcing the highlighting to perl6 somehow would be cool
06:39 thomax because it's easier using eclipse with all the svn/git integration, jump between modules (just by clicking method names) and such. when i test something on shell, i use vi (well, i'm a friend of old-school nvi, so, no vim)
06:40 llfourn interesting.. I didn't think anyone used eclipse for perl 5 or 6
06:40 llfourn that kind of thing works with p5 in eclipse?
06:41 * llfourn uses emacs for all the things
06:41 thomax llfourn: i use it in bigger projects.
06:41 AlexDaniel I can jump to definition most of the time in emacs perl-mode. Magit for git. Sooo…
06:41 thomax emacs? na.
06:42 AlexDaniel well, actually I use spacemacs
06:42 llfourn magit is awesome :)
06:42 AlexDaniel which is something you might like if you are used to vi/vim keys
06:43 llfourn I wonder... what would happen with a perl6 grammar parsing when someone types something. Would you have to reparse the whole thing on every key stroke?
06:43 AlexDaniel llfourn: yeah, probably reparse everything when the user has stopped typing or something.
06:44 thomax hehe. "each statement changes the language" :-)
06:44 llfourn AlexDaniel: maybe there could be a way to only invalidate part of the match and sort of restart from some preserved state.
06:45 AlexDaniel llfourn: sure, maybe. Great idea, who's going to implement this? :)
06:45 llfourn someone a tad smarter than me!
06:46 ChoHag joined #perl6
06:46 thomax i mean, a good suport of common ide's is essential for the success. am i wrong?
06:46 llfourn thomax: You are probably right. Though maybe not the focus at this stage.
06:47 gfldex there is padre http://padre.perlide.org/
06:50 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
06:50 thomax yes. i tried it some while back. but a ide can do more. like git integration, remote editing and things like that
06:51 crux can't install rakudo. install-core-dist.pl script didn't respect $(DESTDIR) :(
06:51 regreg joined #perl6
06:55 * llfourn has never used DESTDIR
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07:13 japhb .
07:15 llfourn do we have fork(2) at all in p6?
07:15 japhb I know I'm late to the party but:  Congratulations, everyone!  It was *really* nice to see that 6.c announcement on the advent calendar.  :-)
07:16 jdv79 llfourn: http://doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-perlfunc#fork
07:17 jdv79 so depends
07:17 llfourn jdv79: sweet that'll do it
07:18 jdv79 jnthn++ # cool guts post
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07:21 ChoHag So who had to miss Christmas dinner to get it out yesterday?
07:22 awwaiid ChoHag: I think cross-timezone efforts helped avoid that to a degree :)
07:25 ChoHag Well congratulations.
07:27 thomax i hope there will be a posix star
07:30 thomax for those people who read german: http://www.heise.de/developer/artikel/Larry-Wall-gibt-den-Rakudo-Perl-6-Compiler-auf-MoarVM-fuer-den-produktiven-Einsatz-frei-3055947.html
07:30 vividsnow joined #perl6
07:35 thomax found also this intro: https://learnxinyminutes.com/docs/perl6/
07:38 ChoHag This build has taken to melting my CPU.
07:39 ChoHag Om nom nom!
07:39 ChoHag And what happened to Attribute.has-accessor?
07:40 lizmat ChoHag: Attribute.has_accessor
07:40 xpen joined #perl6
07:41 lizmat and good morning, #perl6!
07:42 ChoHag Oh _ is back en vogue now? :)
07:43 jjjj joined #perl6
07:43 ChoHag By the way attempting to run the debugger keeps forking moar moar processes.
07:45 ChoHag And whatever this precomp stuff is, it's broken.
07:48 mempko joined #perl6
07:50 lizmat ChoHag: have you tried nuking install and rebuilding from scratch?
07:50 lizmat breakfast&
07:51 ChoHag Yes.
07:52 ChoHag Well, moving the old one out of the way so I can easily switch back by way of a symlink when something inevitably breaks and I'm more interested right now in fixing my code than the platform it's running on.
07:52 ChoHag I've been down this road before...
07:52 ChoHag Anyway it hangs on this:
07:52 ChoHag ===SORRY!===
07:52 ChoHag Constraint type check failed for parameter '$precomp-id'
07:53 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
07:53 ChoHag And doesn't create the .deps file associated with the module which causes it.
07:54 ChoHag This might be because I have circular dependencies and so had to stuff everything in that same file.
07:55 ChoHag Oh god the .precomp files hang around.
07:56 ChoHag Can I just turn that off? I've always had that sort of crap cause more trouble than its worth.
07:56 llfourn ChoHag: no precompilation; at the top of your file will do it
07:56 ChoHag And it smells like premature optimisation.
07:57 ChoHag No I mean just turn precompilation off entirely.
07:57 llfourn there might be an env variable
07:58 CIAvash joined #perl6
07:59 ChoHag Oh for fuck's sake it created one in the installation directory.
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08:03 ChoHag Who's bright idea was it to ejaculate all over the filesystem?
08:04 ChoHag You've probably pissed off every sysadmin who might consider using perl 6, and definitely pissed off this one.
08:04 ChoHag Especially considering there's no clearly marked "stop fucking doing that" option anywhere.
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08:27 lizmat ChoHag: making precomp work was the main thing for 2015.12  ...   making it more manageable will probably be in 2016.01
08:28 st_iron good morning my friends
08:29 AlexDaniel I understand the pain though. Mixed emotions! Although I'm happy with the speedup that is given by precomp, I'm not really happy with everything else :)
08:29 ChoHag To make it managable there needs to be a way to turn it off.
08:30 ChoHag Surely everyone knows the rules of optimisation?
08:30 lizmat ChoHag: may I point out that without precomp, starting perl6 would take well over a minute ?
08:30 lizmat instead of the .1 second it takes now?
08:31 ChoHag Let me clarify that, which I'm attempting to do in a bug report except I can't find out how to report bugs (yes this has annoyed me so much I'm actually reporting an official bug rather than (just) ranting).
08:31 ChoHag To make it managable there needs to be a way to turn AUTOMATIC precompilation off.
08:31 lizmat send a mail to rakudobug@perl.org
08:33 ChoHag Basically, when running perl (from the cmdline and/or environment) and when building rakudo, there needs to be options to not use precompilation at all, not create any new precompilation files unless explicitely told to but use what's there, and put/look for precompilation files in a specific location.
08:36 AlexDaniel ChoHag: honestly, I don't think that anybody will be against this change if you implemented it. If not, then just open a bug report and wait till somebody gets his hands on it (though no precompilation at all is not something a lot of people are interested in)
08:37 ChoHag I tried looking through the code to see where I could turn it off, but it's a bit too hairy for me to grok before breakfast.
08:39 stmuk one suggestion was a RAKUDO_PRECOMP_DISABLE env var. I did look but, as you say, the code is hairy
08:39 AlexDaniel perhaps this could help: https://gist.github.com/jnthn/47a42b2e86e7e552b2e2
08:40 jdv79 what is the use case for no precomp?
08:40 ChoHag The fact that the premature optimisation code is hairy is a big red flag in and of itself by the way.
08:40 ChoHag jdv79: It broke.
08:41 stmuk it's not very premature .. it was in panda originally and then removed (which was painful in terms of slowdown)
08:41 jdv79 ok.  what how is it premature optimization?
08:41 AlexDaniel ChoHag: I don't really understand how that is a premature optimization though…
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08:43 ChoHag Its automatic nature is premature.
08:44 stmuk I'd see disabling precomp as a short term hack and debugging aid
08:45 ChoHag Yes?
08:46 AlexDaniel besides that, it is just in time
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08:48 AlexDaniel otherwise we'd see folks here saying “I did 「perl6 -e 'say ‘hello world’'」 and I am waiting for two minutes, why is it so slow?”
08:49 ChoHag Where are bugs as sent to rakudobug@perl.org tracked?
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08:50 AlexDaniel https://rt.perl.org/
08:50 AlexDaniel ChoHag: click “public interface” and then “perl6”
08:51 ChoHag Ah there it is.
08:51 ChoHag The 'public interface' button, that is.
08:54 AlexDaniel in fact, I feel like precompilation is a bit too late. I wish there was a way to get it precompiled (which is what Debian package is going to do, maybe?)
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09:11 lizmat afk until late tonigh&
09:14 stmuk AlexDaniel: I think the best way of shipping perl 6 as binaries is probably docker which works cross-platform
09:15 stmuk there is an official rakudo star docker image and I'vebeen working on a "Jumbo Perl" docker image which ships Perl 5 and 6 together with many modules
09:16 Woodi hi #perl6 on Day 1 :)
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09:20 Woodi geekosaur: debian have ghc in versions: 7.10.3 7.8.4 and 7.6.3;  problem probably is that "stable" is long-term-maintanance-with-patches-only...
09:22 stmuk although debian is an excellent the history of vendor perls hasn't been good
09:24 Woodi about Perl6 as "language [that] will definitely change computing as we know it": maybe trend of functional features everywhere (eg. C++11) is already (partly) Perl6 fault ? :)
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09:26 Woodi stmuk: what was a problem(s) ?
09:29 [Tux] test             50000    24.046    23.925
09:29 [Tux] test-t           50000    13.876    13.754
09:29 [Tux] csv-parser       50000    51.588    51.466
09:31 stmuk Woodi: well distros like RHEL and Debian tend to release at different times to Perl 5 which together with their long support cycles means often people end up using perls which are old and vendor supported rather than upstream supported
09:32 stmuk also they tend to patch perl 5 (and use threads etc not recommended upstream) and split up coreperl into packages
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09:32 stmuk its even more unlikely they can keep up with fast perl6 changes
09:36 [Tux] Oh, and thanks to all of you for enriching the programming culture! TimToady, jnthn, masak, lizmat, FROGGS_, nine, and all people that I nagged the past 1½ year with stupid questions and timeing issues
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09:39 Woodi stmuk: right, packages in distros are another layer of problems :) but I must say that after switching to debian (straight from RH9) I never needed to compile kernel (it's a bit humiliating to me...). just never needed it. probably some ppls don't need newest Perl :)
09:39 Woodi [Tux]++ :)
09:41 Woodi stmuk: actually this is strange/interesting... fear of changing to new version or a *bit* of work is needed (or bit of cash to spend) ?
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09:42 stmuk Woodi: they stick with old versions due to the scale of maintance issues with dependencies and because that's what most people in enterprises want
09:42 stmuk vendor perls are probably ok for some users but don't play well with installing your own modules from CPAN
09:44 mj41 Hello. And thank you all.
09:46 mj41 btw http://www.perl6.org/compilers/features is probably outdated ... Compact arrays, Shaped arrays/hashes, Basic module versioning, ...
09:47 mj41 152 features ... 89% implemented, 5% partial, 6% missing  ... https://github.com/mj41/Perl6-Analytics-results/blob/master/slides/mj41-brnopm-prev2.md#id-features
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09:51 [Tux] somehow I feel proud to have played a tiny role in this story
09:52 * masak emerges briefly from the loving clutches of family and celebration
09:52 masak happy release, #perl6!
09:52 masak (I assume. haven't backlogged) :)
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09:52 ChoHag vendor perls can play well with installing modules from CPAN if there is some - any would be nice - co-ordination.
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09:53 ChoHag But the programming world is full of prima donnas and NIHtivists.
09:53 masak jnthn++ # https://6guts.wordpress.com/2015/12/26/reflecting-celebrating-and-looking-forward/
09:55 spider-mario rakudo’s install scripts don’t seem to completely respect DESTDIR anymore
09:55 spider-mario ./perl6-m tools/build/install-core-dist.pl
09:55 spider-mario Failed to open file /usr/share/perl6/repo.lock: permission denied
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09:55 spider-mario DESTDIR seems lost along the way
09:56 ChoHag The install process is a bit shit all roung.
09:56 ChoHag I've been telling myself to fix it for a while now.
09:56 stmuk ChoHag: there are technical solutions (local::lib) but anyone capable of installing CPAN in parallel with vendor perls isn't likely to bother but just install their own perl with perlbrew
09:56 llfourn spider-mario: you are the second person I have seen mentioning this today. Sounds like it's worth sending a email to rakudobug@perl.org
09:57 ChoHag stmuk: Installing your own perl is in general an awful idea in pretty much any even vaguely enterprisey environment.
09:57 stmuk ChoHag: it depends on the environment and your requirements
09:57 ChoHag I have enough to maintain thanks with the idiot developers shitty code and the myriad CPAN modules they depend on.
09:58 ChoHag I don't want to have to maintain my own perl as well. That's what vendors are *for*.
09:58 llfourn ChoHag: I disagree. In enterprise it's especially important to lockdown your perl to specific version and isolated environment.
09:58 ChoHag Yes.
09:59 ChoHag Hence, the vendor-supplied perl.
09:59 llfourn that doesn't let you do custom build arguments
09:59 spider-mario it does if the vendor is the enterprise
10:00 * llfourn think he is confused with what vendor means
10:00 ChoHag If you want to do custom build arguments and perl itself is not your business, you're doing enterprise wrong.
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10:01 ChoHag Above all, minimise moving parts.
10:01 ChoHag Building your own X is another moving part, for any X.
10:01 stmuk if its a small perl shop with light perl 5 use a vendor perl might be fine .. if you are using mojo, DBIXC etc its rarely an opion
10:01 llfourn that's what docker is for
10:01 ChoHag If your business doesn't directly depend on X, don't move it.
10:01 stmuk llfourn: yes I agree docker is the best solution
10:01 ChoHag Pah.
10:01 ChoHag Docker's a solution looking for a problem.
10:02 stmuk no it means we can compile one perl6 and it runs on linux, mac and windows
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10:03 llfourn it means I can test perl6 on debian without having to build a new VM
10:03 ChoHag Unless docker gained a hypervisor while I wasn't looking, there's no way that's true.
10:03 ChoHag And if it did: Yay! Yet Another Hypervisor!
10:04 llfourn eh? it uses virtualbox?
10:04 stmuk ? it usually uses vmware on non-linux platfotms
10:04 ChoHag Is that new wheel round this time?
10:04 stmuk virtualbox I mean
10:04 spider-mario I’m going to try and bisect the issue
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10:35 spider-mario “Which backend(s) to use (or ALL for all of them)”
10:36 spider-mario [insert “Use ALL the backends!” meme here]
10:37 ChoHag Oh that's just wonderful. Bug disappears when I insert 'say <number>' between each line it's potentially on.
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10:40 stmuk does windows have issues with directories containing dots?
10:40 xinming joined #perl6
10:41 RabidGravy shouldn't do, but that may not apply to cmd.exe/powershell whatever
10:42 spider-mario no issue that I know of
10:42 stmuk I was probably thinking of MSDOS years ago
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10:43 stmuk so moar-v6.c is probably ok on windows rakudobrew?
10:43 vendethiel spider-mario: is Perl 6 an allowed language for prologin? :P
10:43 spider-mario I think not, unfortunately. :p
10:44 spider-mario it is for spoj, though
10:44 spider-mario (but possibly an outdated version)
10:45 spider-mario (and apparently not all problems)
10:46 spider-mario for problem “FCTRL”, for example:
10:46 spider-mario Languages:All except: NODEJS PERL 6 VB.net
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10:46 spider-mario not sure what their “All” list includes
10:47 spider-mario but probably at least perl 6 :p
10:47 dalek perl6.org: d3af479 | (Steve Mynott)++ | source/downloads/index.html:
10:47 dalek perl6.org: better to track xmas than hard code a monthly release
10:47 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/d3af479c73
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10:52 vendethiel huh, okay. not sure why then
10:53 uruwi I'd like to document role parameters in perl6/doc, but I'm not sure where to add the text.
10:54 stmuk w00t! top of https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/
10:54 uruwi Would it be in the section on objects?
10:54 stmuk generally better comments than hackernews I think as well
10:55 RabidGravy uruwi, there's already some in http://doc.perl6.org/language/objects#Parameterized_Roles
10:56 uruwi Also, can classes use parameters ore are they limited to roles?
10:58 RabidGravy classes can't now
10:59 RabidGravy or no
10:59 ChoHag I heard that the semantics of ~~ with Pairs are unusual, and they seem to have changed in the last month so ... where can I find out what those semantics are?
11:01 stmuk backlogging and trial and error? :)
11:01 ChoHag Or: How can I use given/when on a Pair?
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11:07 timotimo o/
11:09 stmuk \o
11:09 timotimo smart matching against a pair used to mean "call the method called .key and see if the result is equal to the .value"
11:09 timotimo if you want to smart match "is the thing equivalent to the pair", you'd do something like * eqv "bar" => 123
11:10 ChoHag I want to check both the key and value.
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11:10 ChoHag given $foo.key { when "FOO" { given $foo.value { ... } when "BAR" { given $foo.value { ... } } etc.
11:11 ChoHag But given $foo { when "FOO" => "?" { ... } when "BAR" => "!" { ... } } looks nicer.
11:11 RabidGravy m: say (f => 1) ~~ ( f => 1); say (f => 1) ~~ ( f => 2)
11:11 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«True␤False␤»
11:12 spider-mario hm, the build script also ignores the choice of nqp executable
11:12 spider-mario Using /tmp/sdk/usr/bin/nqp-m (version 2015.11-20-g19073a7 / MoarVM 2015.11-19-g623eadf).
11:12 spider-mario /usr/bin/nqp-m tools/build/gen-cat.nqp moar src/vm/moar/ModuleLoaderVMConfig.nqp src/Perl6/ModuleLoader.nqp > gen/moar/m-ModuleLoader.nqp
11:12 ChoHag Oh it seems like it's falling down where I care about the key and value sometimes but only the key in others.
11:13 ChoHag when foo => 1 { ... }; when foo => 2 { ... }; when bar => * { ... }
11:13 ChoHag What does it do to/with the * in this case?
11:14 RabidGravy is something weird about the moar repo?  rakudobrew seems to be struggling to download it
11:15 ChoHag Pair's ACCEPTS with a Hash (or, since the 18th, another Pair) falls back to the value's ACCEPTS. Which ACCEPTS gets called when the value is a *?
11:15 RabidGravy ChoHag, it may well just be a Whatever
11:16 RabidGravy (i.e. it doesn't generate a closure there), but I don't know for sure
11:16 timotimo yeah, it doesn't ACCEPTS the value, i find that a bit sad, too
11:16 timotimo that's why i wrote a "supersmartmatch" function at some point %)
11:16 ChoHag m: given foo => 2 { when foo => 1 { say "foo" }; when foo => 2 { say "FOO!" }; when bar => * { say "bar?" }; when baz => "bing" { say "BingBong" }; default { say "Bugger..."} }
11:16 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«FOO!␤»
11:17 ChoHag m: given foo => 42 { when foo => 1 { say "foo" }; when foo => 2 { say "FOO!" }; when bar => * { say "bar?" }; when baz => "bing" { say "BingBong" }; default { say "Bugger..."} }
11:17 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«bar?␤»
11:17 timotimo https://github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/blob/master/tools/spesh_diff.p6#L49-L65
11:17 ChoHag m: given baz => "bing" { when foo => 1 { say "foo" }; when foo => 2 { say "FOO!" }; when bar => * { say "bar?" }; when baz => "bing" { say "BingBong" }; default { say "Bugger..."} }
11:17 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '3⏏5bing' (indicated by ⏏)␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/88QSDMNFf7 line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/88QSDMNFf7 line 1␤␤»
11:18 ChoHag That's a fun one...
11:21 ChoHag Huh. Seems when any of the when clauses is a Pair with a number in its value slot, it tries to treat the value of the given expression as a number.
11:22 ChoHag I think I'll put smartmatching Pairs squarely in the "not ready yet" category.
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11:22 araujo anybody knows if there are perl6 bindings for clutter?
11:23 RabidGravy Isn't that behaviour exactly what was described above?
11:23 RabidGravy araujo, what's clutter?
11:23 RabidGravy Hrmph "fatal: unable to access 'https://github.com/perl6/nqp.git/': TCP connection reset by peer"
11:23 ChoHag RabidGravy: Me?
11:24 RabidGravy yes
11:24 RabidGravy calling the ACCEPTS on the value with the LHS
11:25 ChoHag Yes but I was expecting strings and numbers to magically interoperate.
11:26 timotimo clutter is a GTK thing for opengl-backed canvas stuff and putting widgets onto that, IIRC
11:26 ChoHag m: given "string" => "string" { when "string" => "string" { say "this works" } }
11:26 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«this works␤»
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11:26 ChoHag m: given "string" => "string" { when "string" => "string" { say "this works" }; when "string" => 42 { say "this doesn't" } }
11:26 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«this works␤»
11:26 ChoHag m: given "string" => "string" { when "string" => 42 { say "this works" }; when "string" => "string" { say "this doesn't" } }
11:26 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '3⏏5string' (indicated by ⏏)␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/R9NorrBDoW line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/R9NorrBDoW line 1␤␤»
11:27 timotimo araujo: we only really have a primitive GTK binding, but if someone could implement support for the gtk introspection, we could have raw bindings for all gtk libraries "for free"
11:27 timotimo then it'd just be a matter of going in and implementing some sugar on top of these raw bindings
11:27 timotimo for people who don't want to use the raw bindings
11:30 RabidGravy is it possible that some kind of github "rate limiting" has killed rakudobrew?
11:31 ChoHag RabidGravy: While it would be nice, I don't think perl6 is that popular.
11:31 ChoHag And I'm able to clone nqp fine.
11:32 ChoHag At 1MiB/s
11:32 ChoHag And climbing, somehow...
11:33 RabidGravy Hmm it just doesn't want to play here
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11:37 timotimo have you tried turning the internet off and on?
11:37 timotimo no, not your internet. *the* internet!
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11:42 araujo timotimo, aah I see ... we need gir first
11:42 araujo ok
11:42 timotimo it's not a "need"
11:43 timotimo you can write clutter bindings manually, of course
11:43 timotimo it could just be a bit more work :)
11:43 araujo right
11:43 araujo timotimo, so, we don't have any on going work for gir bindings?
11:44 _nadim Good Morning
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11:44 ChoHag araujo: They've literally only just got the language itself to work.
11:44 ChoHag Like, yesterday.
11:45 araujo RabidGravy, https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Clutter
11:45 araujo ChoHag, uh?
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11:46 nine ChoHag: thanks for calling my work of the past three months, where I scaled down social calls to a minimum and usually just came home from work to hack till late at night "shit". Especially on this day of celebrations.
11:46 ChoHag Any time.
11:48 timotimo your interpretation of the release is ... interesting
11:48 timotimo there's nothing that'd have stopped someone interested to build a gir binding a year or two ago
11:48 ChoHag For the record, as detailed in the bug report, the problems with it are its automatic nature coupled with the inability to "just turn it off" (as a user, not as a developer - I know of the no precompilation pragma), and its penchant to spew files all over the place.
11:49 timotimo nine: personally, i think you've achieved more than i would have expected
11:50 ChoHag timotimo: I mean the language itself is still cooling down from its time in the kiln - anything more would be great, and in many cases is actually present, but can hardly be expected.
11:50 nine ChoHag: I must admit, I'm really buffled why if you have such strong opinions about this, you completely ignored the public review of the design written by jnthn++, the discussions on this channel, the publicly available branch that was there for 1 1/2 months, just to wait for the release to voice your concerns.
11:51 _nadim I have a question about captures. I am going to link to an example, I will rewrite it with multis, but it is a good example of what I wonder about when it comes to captures. here it ihttp://nopaste.linux-dev.org/?907490
11:51 ChoHag I didn't see any public review happening. Unfortunately my social calls are non-negotiable.
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11:51 araujo well, I don't think it is totally accurate to say that the language just got to work yesterday :P
11:51 ChoHag Or forunately, depending on one's opinion of family.
11:51 nine ChoHag: I guess some people just like to shit all over other people's work instead of engaging in a constructive manner. Well, I don't have to understand everyone.
11:52 araujo I can't find any gir binding project around, that's why I ask here
11:52 FranklyBogus Calendar-specific non-judgemental greetings to you all
11:52 ChoHag And, again, I have no problem with the idea of precompilation, nor even most of its implementation, just with the assumption that the world is a perfect place.
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11:52 _nadim the question is, is it possible to call filter with some arguments missing, you can see that depending on phas the last sequences has different amount of elements
11:52 virtualsue ChoHag: why don't you chill out
11:52 FranklyBogus Would one of you very smart people be able to explain why this doesn't work?
11:52 FranklyBogus m: sub ∑(\x) {[+] x}  ; ∑ 1..9
11:52 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/W6vVKkDL83␤Missing block␤at /tmp/W6vVKkDL83:1␤------> 3sub7⏏5 ∑(\x) {[+] x}  ; ∑ 1..9␤    expecting any of:␤        new name to be defined␤»
11:52 RabidGravy araujo, sounds like a great project for someone to pick up :)
11:52 llfourn nine++ release would not have been the same without it. I'm currently using the new compunit interface to do cool things :). Thank you!
11:52 ChoHag I'm entirely chill.
11:52 virtualsue you rant a lot for a chill person then.
11:53 ChoHag That's how I stay chill.
11:53 virtualsue you are pissing other people off
11:53 RabidGravy that's nice.
11:53 araujo RabidGravy, yeah, I might take a look at this
11:53 araujo :)
11:53 araujo Congrats for the release!
11:53 RabidGravy araujo++ # do it! do it!
11:53 virtualsue nine++ # stepped up and did a fabulous amount of work
11:53 araujo :D
11:54 ChoHag That, I'm afraid, is not my problem.
11:55 ChoHag I don't get pissed off with things not under my control, and things under my control I fix so that they don't piss me off.
11:55 virtualsue <shrug> well i suppose jerks would hit this channel eventually
11:56 * llfourn awaits ChoHag's patch to fix all the things he complains about
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11:56 FranklyBogus m: sub Σ(\x) {[+] x};Σ 1..9
11:56 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: ( no output )
11:56 FranklyBogus m: sub Σ(\x) {[+] x};say Σ 1..9
11:56 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«45␤»
11:56 FranklyBogus ah, wrong sigma. Never mind me then. Carry on.
11:58 ChoHag If nine chooses to see offense rather than criticism, that's his lookout.
11:58 llfourn m: sub t { say $*d }; my $*d = 1; await do for ^100 { start { t() }} # looks like a bug
11:58 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«1␤Memory allocation failed; could not allocate 15192 bytes␤»
11:59 llfourn hmm well I get: Dynamic variable $*d not found
12:00 llfourn ChoHag: people can differentiate easier between offence and criticism if you don't call things "shit" fyi
12:01 RabidGravy llfourn++
12:02 FranklyBogus llfourn: I get Cannot invoke this object (REPR: Null)
12:02 FranklyBogus \o/
12:03 FranklyBogus also then the repl crashes
12:03 llfourn FranklyBogus: if you do perl6 -e '..'?
12:03 timotimo god, the repl ;_;
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12:04 FranklyBogus llfourn: then I get Dynamic variable $*d not found... actually, 2nd time around the repl gives the same and didn't crash, so ... yeah. Oddness
12:05 llfourn FranklyBogus: cool. yeah thready code can do weird things I guess.
12:06 llfourn m: sub t { say $*d }; my $*d = 1; await do for ^1 { start { t() }} # looks like a bug
12:06 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«Dynamic variable $*d not found␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/vYXdaHqO8S line 1␤␤»
12:06 llfourn turns out you don't even need the 100
12:06 llfourn m: sub t { say $*d }; my $*d = 1; await  start { t() }
12:06 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«1␤»
12:06 llfourn but you do need the for loop :P
12:06 llfourn m: sub t { say $*d }; my $*d = 1; await  do { start { t() } }
12:06 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«Dynamic variable $*d not found␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/ns2kWcTZYG line 1␤␤»
12:06 pmurias joined #perl6
12:07 llfourn that will be the rt :)
12:08 FranklyBogus m: sub t { say $*d }; my $*d = 1; await t()
12:08 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«1␤Must specify a Promise or Channel to await on (got a Bool)␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/OYWlDBr_er line 1␤␤»
12:09 RabidGravy :)
12:09 FranklyBogus hmm... that gave me `Dynamic variable $*d not found` as well, so I thought it was hitting that error before the await one
12:09 FranklyBogus but apparently I'm just a freak
12:10 FranklyBogus > sub t { say $*d }; my $*d = 1 1 > t() Dynamic variable $*d not found   in sub t at <unknown file> line 1   in block <unit> at <unknown file> line 1
12:12 RabidGravy should that even compile?
12:12 llfourn FranklyBogus: loo
12:12 llfourn FranklyBogus: looks weird
12:13 FranklyBogus ... I pasted from the repl again. It just cut out the line breaks
12:13 AlexDani` joined #perl6
12:14 llfourn FranklyBogus: .... you're right dynamic variables are broken in repl
12:14 RabidGravy ah
12:14 llfourn probably not the same thing as the thread thing
12:14 zengargoylew joined #perl6
12:14 FranklyBogus probably not, no
12:15 llfourn the question is: have they ever worked?
12:16 FranklyBogus ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
12:16 nine llfourn: can you tell me more about those cool things? :)
12:17 llfourn nine: I was/am using it to precompile the .pod in the docs.
12:18 llfourn the htmlifying that is. And introducing some concurrency with start until I ran into the above bug.
12:18 llfourn right no htmlify will reparse everything every time you build the docs :\
12:19 llfourn nine: the only gnarly bit about it was having to use nqp to do: my $pod = nqp::atkey($handle.unit,'$=pod')[0];
12:20 pmurias joined #perl6
12:22 peteretep Does anyone know if installation works on directories with spaces in the names?
12:22 RabidGravy Okay, that's weird rakudobrew can get the stuff now, but it appears that the RPi can get on with it but the other little computer can't get libuv
12:22 nine llfourn: I wonder why you need nqp for that?
12:22 llfourn nine: $handle.unit returns a knowhow
12:22 thomax found an error in DBIish. when $sth.allrows(:array-of-hash) i get a failure for float values.
12:22 nine llfourn: ah, of course, it's a lexpad
12:23 thomax with fetchall_arrayref it gets the values right
12:24 RabidGravy peteretep, I for one have never tried
12:24 llfourn nine: yep, being able to access arbitrary stuff in UNIT is probably going to be a use case so some p6izing would be cool :)
12:24 llfourn (if that's even the correct term here :P)
12:25 thomax and why am i forced to write 'if (cond)' or 'if cond' and can't use 'if(cond)'.  it is like pythons indent.
12:25 nine llfourn: I think the proper term is "hllizing" which ought to be specializable to "p6izing" ;)
12:26 llfourn gotcha
12:26 ChoHag joined #perl6
12:26 peteretep RabidGravy: Well, time to try again :-) I'll give it a whirl
12:26 peteretep ISTR it fails late in the game too, which has been particularly irritating the other few times I've tried it
12:27 peteretep RabidGravy: Also, merry xmas gellyfish :-)
12:27 nine llfourn: CompUnit::Handle lets you access several keys that have information needed for proper loading of the module, but there's no generic way to access a key. Maybe we can come up with a good interface.
12:27 RabidGravy :)
12:27 RabidGravy merry xmas to you too
12:28 loren joined #perl6
12:28 peteretep OK, rakudobrew was pretty quick to build
12:28 peteretep tha's nice
12:28 llfourn nine: yes! it's great. I am also writing an autodoc tool that takes everything in META6.json and does .export-package etc and then uses .WHY on all the stuff it there then => "this module exports the following symbols.." in README.md
12:28 peteretep Wait, did  "rakudobrew build moar v6.c " install Perl6?
12:29 nine llfourn: wow, that sounds amazing :)
12:29 RabidGravy thomax, it's not like pythons indent at all, at some point there has to be unamibiguous syntax
12:29 peteretep That was literally unbelievably fast...
12:29 llfourn nine: it's working out pretty well so far :)
12:30 RabidGravy peteretep, yes it will have installed it in somewhere you have to add to your path, but it installed it
12:30 peteretep I am skeptical of the ~3m build time
12:30 nine .tell ShimmerFairy I think I never told you directly how much I respect you for the public apology you posted back then. Takes great courage to do that. Thank you!
12:30 yoleaux nine: I'll pass your message to ShimmerFairy.
12:31 nine peteretep: 3 minutes sounds about right
12:31 nine on a somewhat decent machine
12:31 peteretep OK
12:31 peteretep awsome.
12:31 lucasb joined #perl6
12:31 peteretep ISTR last time I tried this it took hours, but maybe I am misremembering
12:31 peteretep or maybe that was an old machine
12:31 RabidGravy well it's somewhere in the region of twenty minutes on the RPi2 but yeah
12:31 thomax RabidGravy: i'm forced to change the way i write code. right? bad idea. the same argument you use, is also right for the indent thingy of python.
12:32 peteretep That's not at all bad
12:32 nine peteretep: I'm glad, I only joined the core team when compilation time was way down already. I'm too impatient and much too used to quick hack-compile-try cycles :)
12:32 peteretep heh
12:32 peteretep OK, I wonder if I have any sufficiently simple modules to port
12:33 nine I've got about 90 minutes of hacking time. Any urgent fixes needed?
12:33 thomax nine: also on modules?
12:33 peteretep What's the Perl6 name for AUTOLOAD?
12:34 peteretep as in sub AUTLOAD
12:34 RabidGravy method FALLBACK
12:34 nine thomax: if I have a commit bit, I may be able to do something
12:34 thomax nine: found an error in DBIish. when $sth.allrows(:array-of-hash) i get a failure for float values.
12:34 RabidGravy as in
12:35 thomax nine: should be an easy one.
12:35 peteretep RabidGravy: Does Perl6 make: http://search.cpan.org/~sargie/Class-ConfigHash-0.001/ irrelevant?
12:35 peteretep Or is that a useful thing for Perl6 too?
12:35 nine thomax: do you have an easy test case for me to reproduce? Some SQL to set up the db and some failing code?
12:35 RabidGravy m: class Foo { method FALLBACK(*@f) { say @f } };  Foo.new.foo
12:35 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«[foo]␤»
12:36 peteretep Is 'new' a magical method? Is there any way to rename it?
12:36 peteretep nine: I'd like "http://doc.perl6.org/type/Hash" to have made 'is Map {}' clickable :-D
12:36 thomax nine: use the sqlite.p6 from the examples, change the fetchall_arrayref into allrows and use dd on the return values
12:37 nine peteretep: you can still call your constructor whatever you like. However all classes inherit a default .new from Mu
12:37 peteretep Can I kill that some how, if I should so wish?
12:37 peteretep Hrm, I could redefine new() presumably
12:37 RabidGravy peteretep, the module could be useful, but I'd go with making a new anon class on the fly rather than FALLBACK
12:37 _nadim Is there a way to query if a multi will match aset of arguments? Rather than calling it and catching an exception.
12:38 * peteretep tries
12:39 llfourn _nadim: yes. \(stuff) ~~  &the-dispatcher.signature
12:39 timotimo i washed my car and it didn't start raining ... something's wrong here
12:39 RabidGravy there's still a 'bless' (albeit a method) or you can go deeper with CREATE and stuff
12:39 llfourn _nadim: wait forget that..
12:40 peteretep That's sad, no Perl6 syntax for SublimeText
12:40 _nadim llfourn: I am waiting :)
12:40 nine thomax: how do I notice that something's wrong? What would be the expected value?
12:40 RabidGravy Stage parse      : 187.668 # gigabyte brix with two core celeron
12:41 llfourn _nadim: you probably want. &the-dispatcher.candidates.first: { \(stuff) ~~ .signature }
12:41 nine timotimo: worry!
12:41 RabidGravy it's grey here but no rain
12:42 Skarsnik_ joined #perl6
12:42 _nadim RabidGravy, peteretep: if Iunderstand it right, that module is just to add sugar so one can write it with one -> rather than a {}, in that case, wouldn't an operator bne better?
12:42 thomax nine: it write and reads price and amount field from the db, with allrows(:array-of-hash) the value is always 'failure' with fetchall_arrayrefs() it get's the correct values
12:42 _nadim llfourn: i write that in a corner of the file and I'll get back playing with it later, thanks
12:42 timotimo FranklyBogus: i'd like to improve the error you got for the "wrong sigma"; clearly we could have said "this is not a valid name for a sub" instead of "missing block"
12:44 RabidGravy _nadim, well one could augment Hash with a FALLBACK which would be fun, but then all your hashes get that behaviour
12:45 nine _nadim: my $arrayref = $sth.allrows(:array-of-hash); dd $arrayref; # doesn't give me any failure?
12:45 _nadim nine: sure that was for me?
12:46 Skarsnik thomax, hm what is the error?
12:46 peteretep _nadim: It's slightly more complicated, in that it dies with useful error messages
12:46 nine thomax: my $arrayref = $sth.allrows(:array-of-hash); dd $arrayref; # doesn't give me any failure?
12:47 _nadim RabidGravy: I found out about Augment yesterday, I must admit that I am more than suspicious about that one, spcially if one can not track where things have been augmented.
12:47 nine _nadim: no, I was just confused :)
12:47 _nadim peteretep: noting stops the operator to die with a good error messsage too. my description of what it did was  simple to keep it short, not to reduce its usefulness
12:47 _nadim nine: aren't we all :)
12:48 thomax nine: wow! right! than it might be a bug in Data::Dump.
12:48 thomax nine: wait, i pastbin the outputs
12:48 peteretep _nadim: I think the problem with implementing it as an operator is that it needs context of previously invocations
12:48 peteretep Perl 5: $object->foo->bar->baz - the final -> needs to know it was reached via foo->bar
12:49 kjs_ joined #perl6
12:49 * peteretep is just playing
12:49 _nadim peteretep: I wrote http://search.cpan.org/~nkh/Config-Hierarchical-0.13.9/lib/Config/Hierarchical.pm for a heavy config have a look
12:50 _nadim peteretep: no problem with that, you just need to return something for each ->. EG: ->foo returns an object you can apply -> on
12:50 peteretep Does that have an advantage over using .?
12:50 _nadim I wouldn't know :)
12:50 nige1 joined #perl6
12:50 peteretep OK
12:50 Skarsnik Oh yes Data::Dump can't display float
12:51 _nadim but it is how $object.perl.say works, chaining calls
12:51 peteretep nige1: Merry Xmas
12:51 peteretep That I think is closer to the Prel5 version?
12:51 thomax nine: http://pastebin.com/QJ7S6rSP
12:52 cognominal When trying to install WebSocket, panda blows up trying to install HTTP::Server::Tiny with a "Cannot unbox a type object" which points at https://github.com/tadzik/panda/blob/master/lib/Panda/Installer.pm#L61
12:52 cognominal nine: as a panda expert, do you have a clue ?
12:53 Skarsnik Try running it again/
12:53 Skarsnik ?
12:53 nine cognominal: upgrade. I fixed that one yesterday
12:54 thomax nine: for sure i would fix it myself. but these are my first steps after install p6. and i'm still puzzled with 'how i can i debug a package before it gets precompiled and vanish behind a anonymous hash-named file as a binary)
12:55 nine thomax: the file names you see in error messages are still the names of readable source files, despite the weird names
12:55 cognominal thx, Already upgraded, I  suspect I must erase ~/.perl6 again
12:56 Skarsnik I made a PR to fix Data::Dump and numeric display x)
12:56 ShimmerFairy nine: thanks :) also, backlogging a bit, was there any reason the .precomp directory couldn't have just been in some central location like ~/.perl6 instead of always the current directory? (I'd guess either "not all OSes have a good choice of location" and/or "centralizing CURLF-y stuff would've been too interesting for the time constraint")
12:56 yoleaux 12:30Z <nine> ShimmerFairy: I think I never told you directly how much I respect you for the public apology you posted back then. Takes great courage to do that. Thank you!
12:56 thomax Skarsnik: so, you mean it's a know bug. right? but it works in one dump, in the other it didn't (see the pastebin above)
12:57 Skarsnik Look closer at the type :)
12:57 tef joined #perl6
12:57 FranklyBogus timotimo: grand, thanks. Although I'd also like apple to change 'alt+w' to give the unicode variant :)
12:57 Skarsnik The first one work because all the fetch_ return stuff as Str
12:57 nine ShimmerFairy: precomp files _do_ get written to ~/.perl6 unless you use "use lib", "-I" or "PERL6LIB". Then we create a .precomp directory in the lib directory you included and load from and write to there.
12:58 timotimo thomax: i don't know if anybody told you, but you can use Slang::Tuxic which will allow you to use if(...) like if (...) and if ...
12:58 thomax Skarsnik: ah, yes. now i see what you mean. but it's know already?
12:58 timotimo among other things
12:58 nine ShimmerFairy: the rationale for that is given in https://gist.github.com/jnthn/47a42b2e86e7e552b2e2 (I think under the Precompilation heading)
12:58 thomax timotimo: aah! that sounds cool.
12:58 FranklyBogus m: sub infix:<Σ>( \x, &fn ) {[+] map &fn, x} ; my $a = (1..9000) Σ { 1 / $_² } ; my $b = π² / 6 ; say ($b - $a).Rat
12:58 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«0.000111␤»
12:59 Skarsnik thomax, Data::Dump is not really that used since we have a .perl or a dd already in Core. I just saw this bug 3 days ago while trying to debug DBIish tests ~~
12:59 * timotimo is still catching up on backlog
12:59 nine cognominal: if you need to erase ~/.perl6 to get something going, that's a bug I'd like to hear about
12:59 nine cognominal: preferably before you erase :) Otherwise it will be hard to diagnose
13:00 cognominal nine: too late
13:00 hankache joined #perl6
13:01 thomax Skarsnik: if one have really huge data structure, i think, dd is not really helpful.
13:01 hankache Hello #perl6
13:02 Skarsnik Is there a way to repport NC/Test related issue outside RT? It could be useful to have better visibility on this stuff that is not really "core"/less critical
13:02 shibly joined #perl6
13:03 Skarsnik thomax, there is a Data::Pretty that maybe work better?
13:03 shibly Will perl6 be unsupported in future?
13:03 ShimmerFairy nine: I think what you're looking for is perhaps under "CompUnit::Repository::FileSystem". But in any case it still seems like a LTA solution to me. fwiw one small perl6 thing I have has a .precomp at the top level, *and* in an otherwise-empty lib/ I don't recall creating.
13:03 Skarsnik unsupported?
13:03 ZoffixWin shibly, what do you mean, in the future?
13:03 spider-mario I may be wrong, but I have the impression that nqp’s Configure.pl translates ~ in --prefix to $HOME, but Moar’s doesn’t
13:03 spider-mario (I ended up with a directory named '~', literally)
13:03 halto joined #perl6
13:03 ShimmerFairy (lib/.precomp is a bit older than the top-level one, so who knows?)
13:04 shibly Will perl5 be unsupported in future?
13:04 shibly sorry that will be perl5
13:04 timotimo shibly: it'll be distinctly hard to find people to support perl6 for you once the earth has been swallowed up by the sun, unless humans have traveled beyond our current solar system
13:04 ZoffixWin shibly, in a distant future, yes
13:04 timotimo perl5 will still be supported for the forseeable future.
13:04 Skarsnik shibly, maybe? perl6 and perl5 are quite detached in a sense perl6 is not here to replace perl5 (now)
13:04 shibly When will perl5 start to be unsupported?
13:05 ZoffixWin shibly, this is a wrong channel to ask that question. Perl 5 is a different language with a different set of developers.
13:05 timotimo shibly: probably in 60 or 100 years
13:05 nine ShimmerFairy: ah, now I have it: https://gist.github.com/jnthn/47a42b2e86e7e552b2e2#repositories the first bullet point
13:05 thomax Skarsnik: can't install Data::Pretty, it fails on tests
13:05 llfourn shibly: it will become unsupported a decade or so after fortan in my estimations
13:05 llfourn fortran*
13:06 cognominal nine: I changed the --prefix option    what happens if many different Perl 6 compiled with different prefixes ends up sharing the same ~/.perl6 ? Seems a recipe for disaster
13:06 timotimo why are people worrying about perl5 becoming unsupported? aren't we blasting the "perl5 and perl6 are being developed independently" message at full volume across all channels already?
13:06 ZoffixWin spider-mario, are you sure you didn't quote it? The translation would happen by bash, before it got to anything
13:07 hankache ZoffixWin is it too much of a burden to make https://doc.perl6.org/ *look like* perl6.org?
13:07 llfourn cognominal: precomp is stored seperately for each build I think
13:07 hankache hello cognominal
13:07 spider-mario I used the exact same command line for both moarvm and nqp
13:07 cognominal salut hankache
13:07 ShimmerFairy nine: ah I see. To be clear my idea would be something like ~/.perl6/localthings/... , not to mingle it with the "normal" ~/.perl6/version/lib stuff :)
13:07 spider-mario fish probably didn’t translate it for either because of the --prefix= before
13:07 hankache cognominal long time no see
13:08 spider-mario (confirmed using echo)
13:08 spider-mario but nqp’s Configure still translated it, apparently
13:08 llfourn cognominal: ie https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/src/core/CompUnit/PrecompilationStore/File.pm#L42
13:09 thomax timotimo: use Slang::Tuxic; if(True) { say "true"; } # didn't work for me
13:09 cognominal lifourn++, nice to know
13:09 nine cognominal: jnthn++ thought about that issue ahead :)
13:09 spider-mario I don’t mind not translating ~ in addition to the shell, but it might be better if it were consistent among all Configure scripts
13:09 nine It's really amazing how many issues he's forseen and taken into account properly.
13:10 cognominal jnthn deserves his architect hat :)
13:10 loren joined #perl6
13:10 nine ShimmerFairy: yes, I guess we could for example take a sha hash of the lib's path and create a subdirectory named after this hash in ~/.perl6 to store the precomp files.
13:11 nine ShimmerFairy: of course, that assumes that we do actually have a writable ~/.perl6 :) It's really hard to predict what people's systems are like
13:11 cognominal hankache, long time no C too except messing with MoarVM
13:11 timotimo thomax: in that case i must have been mistaken about Tuxic. i thought it was there specifically to allow no-space after if and other keywords :(
13:11 thomax nine: everything is better than anonymous file names :-)
13:11 hankache what is the state of Pod6?
13:11 llfourn nine: I can easily see that directory piling up with a bunch of stuff though. Some of it would never get deleted.
13:12 ShimmerFairy nine: yeah, or something like ~/.perl6/something/home-projects-p6-foobar-lib :P . My main concern is the idea of .precomp sneaking into git repos and zip files (I'm reminded in particular of OSX hidden file DS_STORE garbage sneaking into zip files)
13:12 thomax timotimo: np, but this would be worth to look after for my own slang >:)
13:12 llfourn hankache: it's not yet to spec but it does the job for some situations at least
13:13 ZoffixWin hankache, it looks the same if you squint just right! :)
13:13 ZoffixWin TBH, I'm kinda fine with the way the current docs.perl6.org look
13:13 llfourn hankache: C<> is not space preserving for example, S<> and T<> don't exist, pod doesn't work in #|
13:13 ShimmerFairy Ah, that reminds me, I should get back to that SUPERNOVA thing of mine :P
13:14 hankache ZoffixWin ;)
13:14 ZoffixWin hankache, I'd think it'd be pretty easy to convert it to same look as perl6.org tho, probably all that needs to be done is the header/footer templates to be changed to what's on perl6.org
13:14 Skarsnik Pod6 need a documentation outside the spec x)
13:14 llfourn Skarsnik: we sure do :)
13:14 shibly left #perl6
13:15 llfourn (especially since the spec was 403 when I looked last!)
13:15 nine ShimmerFairy: I would love to see people crowding together and collecting such use cases and thoughts in a central location, so we can iron out an updated design. After implementing jnthn's design, I actually feel competent enough to speculate about future design in this area.
13:15 ZoffixWin #|? ... What's that?
13:15 hankache ZoffixWin well my argument is: having a persistent look & feel across all of perl6.org
13:15 nine thomax: to be clear, I do think that we can improve those unreadable file names (at least in error messages)
13:16 llfourn m: #|{ looks some docs } sub wee { }; say &wee.WHY;
13:16 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«looks some docs␤»
13:16 ZoffixWin hankache, yeah, I think at some point I wanted to make doc.perl6.org look same, but then stopped
13:16 llfourn ZoffixWin: ^^
13:16 ZoffixWin #| is literally a "hash pipe" lulz
13:16 kjs joined #perl6
13:16 cognominal now I have the dreadful  ===SORRY!===
13:16 cognominal Could not find Shell::Command in:
13:16 cognominal /Users/cog/.perl6/2015.12
13:16 llfourn m: #|{ looks C<i should work> } sub wee { }; say &wee.WHY.perl;
13:16 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«Pod::Block::Declarator.new(WHEREFORE => sub wee () { #`(Sub|55814656) ... }, config => {}, contents => [])␤»
13:16 nine cognominal: freeze!
13:16 hankache llfourn indeed I already gave pod6 a try
13:16 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
13:17 nine cognominal: please, can you upload your ~/.perl6, your install/share/perl6 and any terminal output of your installation process somewhere?
13:17 cognominal I guess I once fixed that by removing the installed executable and downloading a fresh rakudo.
13:17 nine cognominal: do you use rakudobrew?
13:17 hankache I would love to rewrite perl6intro.com in pod6. As a matter of fact i started in pod6 but dropped it after the 4th chapter
13:17 thomax ZoffixWin: is a hash pipe  a shebang++ ?
13:18 cognominal nine, I don't use rakudobrew
13:18 hankache ShimmerFairy++ #SUPERNOVA
13:18 ZoffixWin thomax, hash is a drug: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashish
13:18 ZoffixWin .... that you can smoke with a pipe....
13:18 thomax ZoffixWin: i know
13:18 ZoffixWin k
13:18 * llfourn gets it now
13:18 cognominal nine: next time, I run into it I will send you everything :)
13:21 llfourn hankache: I'm working on it a bit so hopefully it will be getting better :)
13:21 RabidGravy "Stage parse      : 560.782" # RPi2
13:22 hankache llfourn excellent news keep up the good work
13:22 hankache ++llfourn
13:22 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
13:23 _nadim how do I get all the arguments a sub/method was called with. ala @_, the capture I guess.
13:24 llfourn _nadim: that's how I do it
13:24 Skarsnik hm, where is the announce for perl6 release. Is that the advent post on rakudo?
13:24 thomax yepp
13:24 timo2timo joined #perl6
13:25 timo2timo seems like the server my irc client runs on fell off the 'net
13:25 _nadim llfourn: with @_ ?
13:25 timo2timo thomax: it seems like Slang::Tuxic wants exactly the opposite of what you want
13:25 gfldex hankache: i may be able to help you getting perl6intro.pod rendered in html. Do you still got the .pod-file laying around?
13:26 llfourn nine: I admit I have never used @_
13:26 llfourn _nadim: ^^
13:26 nine _nadim: sub foo(|c) { say c.list, c.hash; }
13:26 * thomax nods @ timo2timo
13:27 hankache gfldex i used Pod::To::HTML at the time. Unfortunately only the first 3-4 chapters are in pod. afterwards i moved to sciidoctor
13:27 hankache 88asciidocotr
13:27 hankache **asciidoctor
13:28 kid51 joined #perl6
13:28 _nadim nine: thanks
13:28 hankache gfldex what do you have in mind?
13:29 Skarsnik We fail to have 500 modules for x-mas x)
13:29 hankache gfldex i encountered many issues with pod6, a lot of stuff wasn't possible
13:29 cdg joined #perl6
13:29 _nadim nine: althoug I stee want the sub to have a signature  sub foo($, $, ...) {call_another_sub(@_ish) }
13:30 llfourn hankache: it is a known area of neglect -- most of it hasn't been touched since 2011
13:30 llfourn there are just more important things to work on for the core devs I'd say
13:31 timo2timo yeah, i've touched Pod6 a little bit, with equally little success
13:31 llfourn I've made a PR https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/651/files to make some improvements -- if I get some encouragement I'll keep going :)
13:31 timo2timo however, ShimmerFairy is currently putting a lot of work into pod parsing with the project i forgot the name of
13:32 timo2timo https://shimmeryfairy.wordpress.com/2015/11/28/introducing-supernova/ - check it out!
13:32 ShimmerFairy SUPERNOVA, I'm just now getting back into it since I was reminded :)
13:32 * _nadim sends encouragments to llfourn
13:32 timo2timo did i overpromise? :)
13:32 timo2timo ShimmerFairy++ # pod6 work
13:33 ShimmerFairy timo2timo: nah, just me bouncing around a million different projects that makes me leave stuff alone at times :P
13:33 llfourn oh cool I didn't even know about this
13:33 * hankache sends encouragements to llfourn and ShimmerFairy
13:34 mj41 joined #perl6
13:34 llfourn I was thinking that pod should be it's own LANG.
13:34 thomax ++
13:34 gfldex http://design.perl6.org/S26.html is producing "Forbidden
13:34 gfldex You don't have permission to access /S26.html on this server."
13:34 ShimmerFairy atm I'm going to work on the AST side of the basic table parsing I did last time 'round.
13:34 RabidGravy Skarsnik, but 483 isn't too far off the mark
13:35 ShimmerFairy llfourn: yeah, one of my goals is that the Pod stuff is its own thing on the language braid, instead of being a part of the $~MAIN stuff.
13:35 Skarsnik I am curious why no body wrote a ORM using .WHY x)
13:35 hankache if we can have something a la http://asciidoctor.org/ that would be splendid
13:35 llfourn ShimmerFairy: you've made my day! I thought I was all alone in that endevour :D
13:35 llfourn and you've already done all this work!
13:35 Skarsnik Should be even easier now with typed value on DBIish x)
13:35 RabidGravy Skarsnik, because there is a world shortage of the required drugs?
13:36 Skarsnik ?
13:36 ShimmerFairy llfourn: thank you :) . I knew my work was never going to make 6.c, but perhaps 6.d (which is my guess for the next version)?
13:36 llfourn ShimmerFairy: lets make it happen :D
13:38 llfourn gfldex: re the 403 -- I know I have pestered moritz a bit about it
13:39 stmuk I wonder what the pull graphs look like for rakudo today?
13:39 timo2timo gfldex: i just fixed the permissions; dunno if i also have to change them on the source system where it gets rsynced from.
13:39 nine cognominal: bash-3.2$ panda bootstrap.pl
13:39 nine cognominal: that should have been "perl6 bootstrap.pl" :)
13:40 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
13:40 cognominal oops
13:42 xpen joined #perl6
13:43 st_iron joined #perl6
13:44 timo joined #perl6
13:45 cognominal nine, on the other hand, a summary message like "possibly out of sync panda" would have clued me in.
13:45 hankache timotimo :)
13:46 timo2timo it's a me!
13:46 * timotimo
13:46 tadzik hm, I get "cannot unbox a type object" when installing HTTP::UA
13:46 tadzik timotimo: :D
13:46 timo2timo tadzik: already reported. how about you fix it? :)
13:46 tadzik :o
13:46 cognominal nine, anyway I get the exact same error after doing "perl6 bootstrap.pl"
13:47 tadzik I wanted a peaceful day of writing an http client, not hard, necessary stuff! :P
13:47 xpen joined #perl6
13:47 nine tadzik: are you on current panda master?
13:47 cognominal nine, I mean the perl6 bootstrap.pl goes fine. But panda install WebSocket whines
13:48 tadzik nine: I thought so. Let me see
13:48 nine cognominal: which begs the question, where the hell panda's bootstrap.pl installed to
13:48 hankache what are we using to highlight Perl 6 code on doc.perl6.org?
13:48 nine cognominal: if we can solve this question, we can fix the bug
13:48 thomax what is websocket? implementation for the js vm?
13:48 nine cognominal: can you send me the current info package?
13:48 Skarsnik Websocket are... websocket, some kind of socket using HTTP
13:49 tadzik nine: oh, I see the patch. That's odd that it's needed, innit?
13:49 nine tadzik: absolutely!
13:50 nine tadzik: more so as it works without most of the time despite hitting the exact same code path again and again. But it fails at the same point every time. E.g. I have to nuke install/share/perl6, run bootstrap.pl and install Task::Star and it fails at Grammar::Debugger
13:50 tadzik o_O
13:51 xpen joined #perl6
13:52 jdv79 anyone know if this person has been in here?:  http://thespokedblog.com/2015/12/18/perl-6-and-cpan-nbsp-well-8230/
13:52 mj41 joined #perl6
13:52 leont joined #perl6
13:53 cognominal nine: which info package?
13:54 nine cognominal: same as you emailed before
13:55 RabidGravy jdv79, of course not, the sport of "writing a whining blog post about Perl 6 without engaging the community" is increasingly popular
13:55 cognominal ok
13:56 jdv79 .tell lizmat i saw your ticket about spec'ing packages(mods,classes,etc) vs dist - was there any further movement on that?
13:56 yoleaux jdv79: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
13:56 RabidGravy that one does seem to be particularly mighty in it's complete mis-understanding of the issue, how CPAN works and what is being proposed though
13:56 jdv79 I wasn't sure if i missed them cause the backlog did get crazy lately and i gave up largely
13:56 timotimo jdv79: that's a spam post
13:57 timotimo jdv79: it scooped up ShimmerFairy's post from like 2 years ago, reposted it.
13:57 jdv79 oh, thanks ShimmerFairy:)
13:57 timotimo you can find the original post, which is also about 2x as long, on the "rakudo deathstar"
13:57 jdv79 haha
13:58 timotimo if it seems like it's completely mis-understanding the current situation of rakudo and such ... yeah, that explains it
13:58 jdv79 i thought it seemed a little famililar but couldn't be sure
13:58 jdv79 thanks
13:58 itaipu joined #perl6
13:59 hankache people can whine as much as they want. Not that it makes a difference
14:00 hankache on that note, can't we create our own CPAN?
14:00 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
14:00 llfourn is anyone suggesting we put perl6 modules on cpan?
14:01 Skarsnik I don't think modules are ready to be on CPAN
14:04 pierre-vigier m: my Numeric @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my Numeric @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);say @a ~~ @b;
14:04 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«Partially dimensioned views of arrays not yet implemented. Sorry. ␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/JtgvIfLh6p line 1␤␤»
14:04 pierre-vigier :(
14:04 pierre-vigier m: my Numeric @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my Numeric @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);say @a eqv @b;
14:05 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«Partially dimensioned views of arrays not yet implemented. Sorry. ␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/B6GiAUdn0Z line 1␤␤»
14:05 Skarsnik I don't think Numeric is a real type x)
14:05 nine Darn...have to leave now for celebrating with the next family, so I'm out for today. Have fun!
14:05 Skarsnik Have fun nine
14:05 RabidGravy Have fun! cya later
14:05 hankache have fun
14:05 thomax bye nine
14:06 pierre-vigier have fun
14:06 pierre-vigier my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);say @a ~~ @b;
14:06 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);say @a ~~ @b;
14:06 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«False␤»
14:06 pierre-vigier i'm even more confused :)
14:07 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);say @a;say @b;say @a eqv @b;
14:07 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«[[1 2] [3 4]]␤[[1 2] [3 4]]␤Partially dimensioned views of arrays not yet implemented. Sorry. ␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/vvqggBoAmR line 1␤␤»
14:09 RabidGravy well I thought that I could spend a quiet day making a pure perl 6 OSC implementation but I can't get to opensoundcontrol.org right now
14:10 gfldex m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);say @a Z~~ @b;
14:10 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«(True True True True)␤»
14:10 gfldex pierre-vigier: ^^^
14:10 gfldex m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);say @a == @b;
14:10 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«True␤»
14:11 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);say @a == 4;
14:11 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«False␤»
14:11 pierre-vigier @a == does not return the number of elements , strange
14:11 cognominal nine++ # for his support, moral and technical
14:11 pierre-vigier thanks!
14:12 pierre-vigier for the Z~~
14:12 timotimo to be fair, raiph has already been tricked by that very same article, jdv79
14:13 gfldex m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);say +@a == 4;
14:13 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«False␤»
14:13 pierre-vigier my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,5); say @a == @b;
14:13 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,5); say @a == @b;
14:13 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«True␤»
14:13 pierre-vigier == does not work :)
14:13 lucasb the number of elements in @a is 2, not 4, right?
14:13 pierre-vigier my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,5); say @a z~~ @b;
14:13 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,5); say @a z~~ @b;
14:13 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/sqqdMvAX4B␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/sqqdMvAX4B:1␤------> 3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,5); say @a7⏏5 z~~ @b;␤    expecting any of:␤        infix␤        infix stopper␤        postfix␤  …»
14:14 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,5); say @a Z~~ @b;
14:14 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«(True True True False)␤»
14:14 timotimo pierre-vigier: == coerces both arguments to Numeric, keep that in mind
14:14 llfourn wow it went red
14:14 lucasb blinking red :) first time I saw this
14:14 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,5); say so @a Z~~ @b;
14:14 timotimo it doesn't blink on my screen :(
14:14 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«(True)␤»
14:14 espadrine joined #perl6
14:14 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4); say so @a Z~~ @b;
14:14 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«(True)␤»
14:14 * llfourn is overcome by the redness
14:14 timotimo m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2), (3, 4); say +@a
14:14 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«2␤»
14:15 gfldex m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);say [&&] @a Z== @b;
14:15 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«True␤»
14:15 timotimo huh, so that pretends to be a list of lists when +'ified?
14:15 gfldex pierre-vigier: ^^^ meta operators recurse into lists of lists
14:15 timotimo m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2), (3, 4); .perl.say for @a
14:15 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤4␤»
14:17 gfldex m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);say [and] @a Z== @b;
14:17 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«True␤»
14:17 gfldex m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,5);say [and] @a Z== @b;
14:17 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«False␤»
14:17 gfldex [and] may be better in combination with meta ops
14:17 pierre-vigier so taken 2 shaped array, what would be the correct way to check if they are equivalent?
14:17 gfldex lucky me i wrote that doc or i would not know!
14:19 gfldex in an ideal world Z== would be clever and memcmp all the things
14:19 timo2timo watch out, Z short-cuts to the shorter of both lists
14:19 timo2timo m: say (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) Z== (1, 2);
14:19 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«(True True)␤»
14:21 gfldex m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4); say @a cmp @b;
14:21 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«Cannot call Real(array[int]: ); none of these signatures match:␤    (Mu:U \v: *%_)␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/4yxjNTnU2Q line 1␤␤»
14:21 fabi3550 joined #perl6
14:21 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
14:25 gfldex m: my int @a[2,2]; @a.^methods.say;
14:25 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«(pick iterator STORE AT-POS unshift EXISTS-POS join permutations combinations reverse rotor roll push prepend append rotate shape ASSIGN-POS plan perl Method+{<anon|79031296>}.new splice Method+{<anon|79031296>}.new gist shift Method+{<anon|79031296>}.new …»
14:25 gfldex m: my int @a[2,2]; @a.shape.say;
14:25 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«(2 2)␤»
14:27 pierre-vigier m: my int @a=(1,2);my int @b=(1,2);say @a eqv @b;
14:27 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«True␤»
14:27 pierre-vigier m: my int @a=(1,2);my int @b=(1,3);say @a eqv @b;
14:27 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«False␤»
14:27 RabidGravy THROW SOME SHAPES!
14:27 pierre-vigier yes, with shapes, does not work :(
14:27 ambs shars?
14:27 ambs sharks...
14:28 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);say @a eqv @b;
14:28 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«Partially dimensioned views of arrays not yet implemented. Sorry. ␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/QlkhDbybts line 1␤␤»
14:28 jast joined #perl6
14:29 pierre-vigier i will wwait for implementation :)
14:29 gfldex m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4); say so @a.shape eqv @b.shape & @a >>==<< @b;
14:29 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«Lists on either side of non-dwimmy hyperop of infix:<==> are not of the same length␤left: 1 elements, right: 2 elements␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/VqbJylugKh line 1␤␤»
14:29 gfldex rakudobug?
14:30 im joined #perl6
14:30 s_kilk joined #perl6
14:30 gfldex m: my int @a = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b = (1,2),(3,4); say so @a.shape eqv @b.shape & @a >>==<< @b;
14:30 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native integer␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/iuYvkxzF4J line 1␤␤»
14:30 gfldex m: my int @a = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b = (1,2),(3,4); say so @a >>==<< @b;
14:30 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native integer␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/AZruoUj8wL line 1␤␤»
14:31 gfldex m: my @a = (1,2),(3,4);my @b = (1,2),(3,4); say so @a >>==<< @b;
14:31 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«True␤»
14:31 gfldex m: my @a = (1,2),(3,4);my @b = (1,2),(3,5); say so @a >>==<< @b;
14:31 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«True␤»
14:31 pierre-vigier m: my @a = (1,2),(3,4);my @b = (1,2),(3,5); say @a >>==<< @b;
14:31 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«[(True True) (True False)]␤»
14:31 pierre-vigier m: my @a = (1,2),(3,4);my @b = (1,2),(3,4); say @a >>==<< @b;
14:31 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«[(True True) (True True)]␤»
14:32 gfldex m: my @a = (1,2),(3,4);my @b = (1,2),(3,5); say [&&] @a >>==<< @b;
14:32 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«(True False)␤»
14:32 gfldex m: my @a = (1,2),(3,4);my @b = (1,2),(3,5); say all @a >>==<< @b;
14:32 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«all((True True), (True False))␤»
14:32 gfldex m: my @a = (1,2),(3,4);my @b = (1,2),(3,5); say so all @a >>==<< @b;
14:32 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«True␤»
14:32 pierre-vigier m: my @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4); say @a >>==<< @b;
14:32 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding @dims; expected Positional but got Any␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/5_kNErWRlC line 1␤␤»
14:33 pierre-vigier my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4); say @a >>==<< @b;
14:33 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4); say @a >>==<< @b;
14:33 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«(True True True True)␤»
14:33 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,5); say @a >>==<< @b;
14:33 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«(True True True False)␤»
14:34 RabidGravy say 0x1F41F.chr # almost a shark
14:34 RabidGravy m: say 0x1F41F.chr # almost a shark
14:34 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«????␤»
14:35 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,5); say [and] @a >>==<< @b;
14:35 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«False␤»
14:35 timotimo pierre-vigier: doesn't eqv work on two arrays?
14:35 pierre-vigier on non shaped array it's working
14:35 timotimo that's bad, then :)
14:36 timotimo >>==<< should be a pretty good approximation
14:36 pierre-vigier m: my @a = (1,2,3);my @b = (1,2,3); say @a eqv @b;
14:36 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«True␤»
14:36 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4); say @a eqv @b;
14:36 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«Partially dimensioned views of arrays not yet implemented. Sorry. ␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/3ovyw50a5F line 1␤␤»
14:37 pierre-vigier my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4); say [and] @a >>==<< @b;
14:37 RabidGravy right, one more raspberry pi to build rakudo on
14:37 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4); say [and] @a >>==<< @b;
14:37 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«True␤»
14:37 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,3] = (1,2,6),(3,4,6); say [and] @a >>==<< @b;
14:37 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«Lists on either side of non-dwimmy hyperop of infix:<==> are not of the same length␤left: 4 elements, right: 6 elements␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/JfOHvOh6Xz line 1␤␤»
14:38 pierre-vigier [and] @a >>==<< @b; seems to b the best solution for now
14:38 timotimo ideally, eqv on shaped arrays would be implemented :)
14:38 gfldex m: my @a = (1,2),(3,4);my @b = (1,2),(3,5); say [&&] @a >>==<< @b;
14:38 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«(True False)␤»
14:38 pierre-vigier i'm sure it will :)
14:38 gfldex m: my @a = (1,2),(3,4);my @b = (1,2),(3,5); say [&&] [&&] @a >>==<< @b;
14:38 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«(True False)␤»
14:38 gfldex it refuses to double reduce :(
14:39 timotimo how could it?
14:39 timotimo oh, right, because hyper ops want to create the same shape as their inputs
14:40 gfldex m: my @a = (1,2),(3,4);my @b = (1,2),(3,5); dd @a >>==<< @b;
14:40 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«[(Bool::True, Bool::True), (Bool::True, Bool::False)]␤»
14:40 gfldex m: say [&&] [(Bool::True, Bool::True), (Bool::True, Bool::False)];
14:40 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«(True False)␤»
14:40 gfldex m: say [&&] [&&] [(Bool::True, Bool::True), (Bool::True, Bool::False)];
14:40 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«(True False)␤»
14:40 timotimo i think in the past, comparing the sizes (should be: shapes) and then using Z== would be recommended
14:40 timotimo but only use == if you're working with numbers
14:41 pierre-vigier m: my @a = (1,2),(3,4);my @b = (1,2),(3,5); say [&&] ([&&] @a >>==<< @b).flat;
14:41 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«False␤»
14:41 gfldex m: my int @a = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b = (1,2),(3,4); say so @a.shape eqv @b.shape & @a >>==<< @b;
14:41 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native integer␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/Ic6As1GVBZ line 1␤␤»
14:42 timotimo you want && instead of &
14:42 gfldex m: dd [&&] $(Bool::True, Bool::False);
14:42 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«$(Bool::True, Bool::False)␤»
14:43 gfldex m: my int @a = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b = (1,2),(3,4); say so @a.shape eqv @b.shape && @a >>==<< @b;
14:43 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native integer␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/5zIt_VyzFg line 1␤␤»
14:43 gfldex i do rakudo doesn't :)
14:43 timotimo m: my int @a = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b = (1,2),(3,4);
14:43 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native integer␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/bgtnkxeid0 line 1␤␤»
14:43 timotimo you can't put lists of lists into a flat int array
14:43 timotimo you need to define a shape for that
14:44 gfldex m: my int @a[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,4); say so @a.shape eqv @b.shape & @a >>==<< @b;
14:44 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«Lists on either side of non-dwimmy hyperop of infix:<==> are not of the same length␤left: 1 elements, right: 2 elements␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/205wjXf5Im line 1␤␤»
14:44 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2]= (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2]= (1,2),(3,4); say so @a.shape eqv @b.shape & ([and] @a >>==<< @b);
14:44 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«False␤»
14:45 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2]= (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2]= (1,2),(3,4); say so (@a.shape eqv @b.shape) & ([and] @a >>==<< @b);
14:45 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«True␤»
14:45 timotimo you still have a & in there
14:45 timotimo which really wants to be a && instead
14:46 gfldex m: dd [and] $(Bool::True, Bool::False);
14:46 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«$(Bool::True, Bool::False)␤»
14:46 gfldex m: dd [and] |$(Bool::True, Bool::False);
14:46 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
14:47 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2]= (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2]= (1,2),(3,4); say @a.shape eqv @b.shape && ( [and] @a >>==<< @b);
14:47 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«True␤»
14:47 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2]= (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,2]= (1,2),(3,5); say @a.shape eqv @b.shape && ( [and] @a >>==<< @b);
14:47 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«False␤»
14:47 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2]= (1,2),(3,4);my int @b[2,3]= (1,2,4),(3,4,4); say @a.shape eqv @b.shape && ( [and] @a >>==<< @b);
14:47 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«False␤»
14:47 pierre-vigier it seems to be working with that
14:48 gfldex have another dimention and it will stop working
14:49 gfldex because you can't chain reduction operators (what may be a bug)
14:50 firstdayonthejob joined #perl6
14:50 leont My rakudo is 4 days old, yet too old for a module I need… :-o
14:50 gtodd joined #perl6
14:50 gtodd left #perl6
14:51 RabidGravy leont, tricky one that
14:52 rurban joined #perl6
14:52 xpen joined #perl6
14:54 loren about @array X~~ @other, is result be a lazy list ?
14:55 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2,2]= ((1,2),(3,4)),((1,2),(3,4));my int @b[2,2,2]= ((1,2),(3,4)),((1,2),(3,4)); say @a.shape eqv @b.shape && ( [and] @a >>==<< @b);
14:55 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«True␤»
14:55 pierre-vigier looks to be ok on shape (2,2,2)
14:55 loren If is not, i think [and] operator will be slowly ..
14:56 timotimo actually ...
14:57 timotimo m: my int @a[2,2,2] = ((1,2),(3,4)),((1,2),(3,4)); say @a.values.perl
14:57 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4).Seq␤»
14:57 timotimo ^- you can use this after comparing the shapes
14:57 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
14:58 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2,2]= ((1,2),(3,4)),((1,2),(3,4));my int @b[2,2,2]= ((1,2),(3,4)),((1,2),(3,4)); say @a.shape eqv @b.shape && ( @a.perl eqv @b.perl);
14:58 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«True␤»
14:58 minde joined #perl6
14:59 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2,2]= ((1,2),(3,4)),((1,2),(3,4));my int @b[2,2,2]= ((1,2),(3,4)),((1,2),(3,4)); say @a.shape eqv @b.shape && ( ~@a eqv ~@b);
14:59 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«True␤»
15:00 timotimo no, don't use .perl
15:00 timotimo don't use ~ either
15:00 timotimo use .values
15:01 pierre-vigier oh, indeed, i misread
15:01 pierre-vigier m: my int @a[2,2,2]= ((1,2),(3,4)),((1,2),(3,4));my int @b[2,2,2]= ((1,2),(3,4)),((1,2),(3,4)); say @a.shape eqv @b.shape && ( @a.values eqv @b.values);
15:01 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«True␤»
15:01 timotimo ok :)
15:02 pierre-vigier thank you, i'll use that until eqv is implemented
15:02 timotimo good good
15:03 pierre-vigier trying to switch that: https://github.com/pierre-vigier/Perl6-Math-Matrix
15:03 pierre-vigier to use shaped array
15:04 timotimo BBIAB
15:05 gfldex loren: it's not lazy [\~~] to get lazy see bottem of chapter: http://design.perl6.org/S03.html#Reduction_operators
15:05 RabidGravy gosh I'd forgotten how slow it was building rakudo moar on a Rev B RPi
15:05 Skarsnik timotimo, what do you think of having Test outputing got/expected in a format closer to Data::Dumper? I mean like with value.typeInformation instead of just using .perl
15:08 loren gfldex, em thanks
15:09 cosarara_ joined #perl6
15:12 loren but i think you misunderstand me , i mean cross operator 'X' not '[]', gfldex
15:13 gfldex since i'm quite good ad misunderstandings, that's very well possible
15:13 rindolf joined #perl6
15:14 gfldex that "ad" comes from the fact that i'm reading a german perl 6 article on heise.de
15:14 loren flaviusb, :)
15:14 gfldex heise is the german it news site
15:14 gfldex every 2nd sentence got something wrong :)
15:16 gfldex what in turn means that our docs suck :(
15:17 loren em ..
15:17 loren will be better later ..
15:17 hankache joined #perl6
15:18 loren someday soon ..
15:18 IonutVan joined #perl6
15:18 secwang joined #perl6
15:19 hankache timotimo are you here?
15:19 RabidGravy it's tricky, write code or write docs
15:19 RabidGravy hankache, he went out for a bit
15:20 hankache RabidGravy ah ok
15:22 hankache .tell timotimo pdf for perl6intro is ready what should i do to include it in the next rakudo star ?
15:22 yoleaux hankache: I'll pass your message to timotimo.
15:24 nemsys joined #perl6
15:35 IonutVan left #perl6
15:36 RabidGravy still compiling on the RPi rev B
15:40 Skarsnik good luck
15:40 Skarsnik I should install crouton to try perl6 on my arm chromebook x)
15:41 vendethiel joined #perl6
15:44 grondilu Skarsnik: I have a chromebook.  I do perl6 stuff on my RPi via SSH
15:44 grondilu no crouton installed
15:46 Skarsnik Crouton seem like a bad idea for power consuption if you can't properly shutdow/suspend the system in the chroot
15:48 kjs_ joined #perl6
15:49 minde left #perl6
15:56 dalek perl6-roast-data: ac8d691 | coke++ | / (7 files):
15:56 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
15:56 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/ac8d691f32
15:57 znpy joined #perl6
16:01 [Coke] I am thinking we should remove the v6.x tags on the rakudo repository; they are going to cause more confusion than they were worth. Any feedback.
16:03 tadzik boooo
16:03 tadzik I have just 'rakudobrew build moar v6.c' to keep the 'official released' version around
16:04 Skarsnik tadzik, did you merge (or commit yourself) fix the for null value in J::U?
16:04 tadzik Skarsnik: no; I checked, and it seems like the tests passes even without the patch :) I wrote it to you yester- or yesteryesterday
16:05 LLamaRider joined #perl6
16:05 tadzik so we're going to need a more strict check on that
16:05 kaare_ Performance Q; This http://pastebin.com/xc3AagqH takes 2.3 secs to run. Anything obvious I'm doing wrong?
16:05 Skarsnik let see if I can install h:ua x)
16:06 * Skarsnik do the dayly/hourly rakudobrew nuke && rakudobrew build moar ~~
16:07 tadzik hah :)
16:07 tadzik HTTP::UA worked for me today
16:08 tadzik kaare_: nothing wrong with it; Perl 6 is just not a speed deamon just yet :)
16:08 tadzik kaare_: you may be able to workaround it a bit by using native integers
16:08 RabidGravy I may revert the changes I made to deal with with the run_alt thing later and see how it goes
16:08 tadzik or "unrolling" the range into a regular for-like loop
16:09 RabidGravy what do we reckon on the "Stage Parse" - over 500?
16:11 kaare_ tadzik: It' like two orders of magnitude slower than perl 5. There's a bit to catch up :-)
16:12 ZoffixWin kaare_, well, Perl 5 had a decade of a head start :P
16:12 tadzik kaare_: yes, it's being closely monitored and profiled as time goes :) Let me look something up for you
16:12 Skarsnik perl5 has like 20+ years of work on it x)
16:12 flussence RabidGravy: it's about that slow on my netbook. Hopefully brrt++ will save us all with a JIT that runs on more than one CPU :)
16:12 mst kaare_: the focus for 6.c was on 'optimisable' not 'optimised'
16:13 * mst approves of this focus
16:13 tadzik timotimo: where's that website with fun grahps with speed of things/
16:13 ZoffixWin kaare_, in the past month, I did notice quite a huge improvement in the start up, so I'm quite optimistic improvement will arrive eventually, once the devs start focusing on optimization
16:13 RabidGravy got to leave something for the new kids to do
16:14 ZoffixWin Alright, time to resume drinking \o/ Happy Holidays \o/
16:14 RabidGravy I've cracked the xmas keg
16:15 kaare_ ZoffixWin: Sounds great
16:15 kaare_ The quick improvements in startup speed
16:16 ppp__ joined #perl6
16:16 Skarsnik I should replace Practice with Coding in perl 6 on this http://www.alttp-wiki.net/index.php/File:10945010_1028275397187573_2971824724975471853_n.jpg
16:17 * flussence thinks the process of obtaining a vanilla rakudo-2015.12 tarball via perl6.org is next to impossible right now
16:17 Skarsnik I am curious of what UA does with IO::Simple::Capture. since run output a proc that make it easy to read stderr/stdout
16:17 quux joined #perl6
16:17 quux hi how to get perl 6 on arch linux?
16:17 tadzik quux: I use rakudobrew
16:17 quux thanks
16:17 tadzik https://github.com/tadzik/rakudobrew
16:18 Skarsnik http://perl6.org/downloads/
16:18 [Coke] flussence: too many downloads?
16:18 ZoffixWin quux, I think these are the instructions: http://perl6.org/downloads/
16:18 quux perl 6!!!!
16:18 ZoffixWin \o/
16:18 flussence [Coke]: not enough; the only clickable download link is for Star and you have to read the entirety of http://rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo/ to notice it mentions an (old) URL in an example
16:19 RabidGravy well it's been well over an hour so far on this RPi
16:19 ZoffixWin yikes
16:19 ZoffixWin What do people use these Raspberry things?
16:19 [Coke] flussence: see the "download" button in the lower left hand side?
16:19 ZoffixWin *what for
16:20 RabidGravy single slow core, 512mb, no JIT
16:20 Skarsnik Result: PASS
16:20 Skarsnik ==> Installing JSON::Unmarshal
16:20 Skarsnik JSON::Unmarshal:ver<0.03>:auth<>:api<> already installed
16:20 Skarsnik Still that with panda? :(
16:20 flussence [Coke]: yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about
16:20 ZoffixWin Skarsnik, still what?
16:20 [Coke] btw, can someone switch the "Jump in" and "perl 6 advent" blocks on perl6.org - we want the download button more visible.
16:20 Skarsnik The already installed stuff
16:20 Skarsnik should it check before trying to install
16:21 timotimo tadzik: what website are you refering?
16:21 yoleaux 15:22Z <hankache> timotimo: pdf for perl6intro is ready what should i do to include it in the next rakudo star ?
16:21 Skarsnik Now I am not sure if upgrade it or not
16:21 [Coke] flussence: the perl6.org/downloads was jsut asdded eysterday; I'm sure we can reword it a bit.
16:21 tadzik timotimo: hmm, I thought it's your doing. It has graphs with performance comparisons between perl6, perl5,sometimes perl6-native etc
16:22 ellybelly joined #perl6
16:22 timotimo yeah, i have a whole bunch of graphs up on t.h8.lv/p6bench/
16:22 timotimo but not all .html files are linked at the moment
16:22 timotimo i didn't bother writing a script that automates that stuff
16:22 RabidGravy ZoffixWin, for me it's a half way house between a microcontroller thing like an AVR and a full up computer
16:22 timotimo so at some point i just copy-pasted the output of "ls" into vim and macro'd it into some html :P
16:22 flussence also, having all star downloads available over port 80 is a bit suboptimal imo... not sure anyone currently around can do anything about that though
16:23 quux left #perl6
16:23 [Coke] flussence: why is that suboptimal?
16:24 ZoffixWin it's possible to change what you're downloading and install malicious stuff
16:24 ZoffixWin If you're a 1337 hax0r
16:25 flussence (or have a prepackaged tool a la firesheep...)
16:25 bop joined #perl6
16:25 * Skarsnik should alias apt-get install M::D to panda install
16:25 * flussence dinner&
16:26 mst flussence: so long as checksums are available over https I don't see the problem
16:27 ZoffixWin But how many people bother checksumming?
16:28 lucasb if it was a md5 or sha checksum, I would check... but I never tried with an .asc file
16:28 dalek tablets: 71eba22 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-b-grouped.txt:
16:28 dalek tablets: B nav completed
16:28 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/71eba22c88
16:28 Skarsnik I should create a HTTPS::UserAgent module that just depend on H:UA and SSL x)
16:28 dalek perl6.org: 982e9cc | (Zoffix Znet)++ | source/index.html:
16:28 dalek perl6.org: Switch around Jump In/Advent blocks
16:28 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/982e9cca6a
16:29 ZoffixWin Well... I hope that was OK
16:29 ZoffixWin Edited on GitHub and no preview... 'cause I'm hardcore like that
16:29 regreg joined #perl6
16:29 Skarsnik wow ssl test are slow x)
16:29 cognominal I see in WebSocket a call into a missing &on function? Was that something in a previous rakudo? What is this now?
16:29 RabidGravy ZoffixWin, go you
16:30 Skarsnik cognominal, if you are courageous you should rewrite websocket (client) with supply x)
16:31 cognominal Skarsnik, supply x) ?
16:31 ZoffixWin cognominal, http://docs.perl6.org/type/Supply
16:31 ZoffixWin We need a bot that will give URLs to docs.perl6.org
16:32 Skarsnik or write a websocket::client::async maybe x)
16:32 Skarsnik Write it!
16:32 RabidGravy Skarsnik, I'm after an EventSource client if you're bored ;-)
16:32 cognominal ho x)  is an emoticon ?
16:32 ZoffixWin I will, but I'm busy drinking
16:32 dalek rakudo/nom: a563e89 | coke++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
16:32 dalek rakudo/nom: Claim January's release.
16:32 dalek rakudo/nom:
16:32 dalek rakudo/nom: Will probably need to revisit release guidelines so we don't break
16:32 dalek rakudo/nom: Christmas.
16:32 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a563e89112
16:32 ZoffixWin cognominal, yes, with eyes like >_<
16:33 RabidGravy drinking *and* making software is the way to go
16:33 Skarsnik ==> Installing IO::Socket::SSL
16:33 Skarsnik ==> Successfully installed IO::Socket::SSL
16:33 Skarsnik that took like 5 min
16:33 Skarsnik that's weird
16:33 cognominal before going on a rewrite, I did a pull request to update it. I am stuck on the &on function.
16:34 tadzik Skarsnik: that's the compiling time
16:34 Skarsnik link the line? x)
16:34 Skarsnik compiling what?
16:34 cognominal Really, so far, it is cargo cult. I have not yet studied the module.
16:34 tadzik the modules
16:34 tadzik precompiling, actually :)
16:34 Skarsnik well 5 min is slow lol
16:34 Skarsnik and I though it was already done before starting the test
16:35 RabidGravy it precompiles it for the test and then precompiles it when it is being installed
16:37 ZoffixWin That seems redundant
16:38 RabidGravy probably
16:39 dotness joined #perl6
16:39 RabidGravy Oh we so have a winner here.
16:39 esh joined #perl6
16:39 RabidGravy "Stage parse      : 2076.654" # RPi rev B
16:39 lucasb a tiny suggestion for downloads/index.html would be to remove the indentation from the <pre> element and remove the "%" prompt as well
16:40 nemsys joined #perl6
16:40 [Coke] lucasb: if you make a PR, I'd apply that.
16:40 lucasb and maybe change 'v6.c' to 2015.12 in the 'rakudobrew build moar' line?
16:40 Skarsnik tadzik, hm could you print the json in J:U errors "Cannot unmarshal Any to type Int
16:40 Skarsnik " it's not fun to find what field is faulty when I get a big json string x)
16:41 [Coke] lucasb: yes, perhaps "2015.12 # Christmas" instead of v6c.
16:41 dalek perl6.org: 5b68398 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | source/downloads/index.html:
16:41 dalek perl6.org: remove the indentation and %
16:41 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/5b6839864c
16:41 lucasb ZoffixWin++ did that :)
16:42 RabidGravy ZoffixWin++ # JFDI
16:42 ZoffixWin I didn't do the 2015.12 stuff... wasn't someone having an issue with that last night?
16:42 ZoffixWin Was that fixed?
16:43 TimToady I think it was just an old install interfering, as usual
16:43 ZoffixWin Ah
16:43 [Coke] Don't knoww what the issue was - but v6.c is a fixed point, there are going to be 2016.01 which still targets v6.c, but won't have that tag. so using that tag is going to keep peopel stuck at 2015.12 when they probably mean the latest.
16:43 tadzik Skarsnik: oh, absolutely, that's a great idea
16:44 lucasb [Coke]: yes, I can see the confusion
16:44 [Coke] the old v6.b tag in rakudo came before we had any plan about roast's branching.
16:44 stmuk I changed 2015.12 to v6.c because I thought it better to suggest targetting the v6.c rather than us having to manually bump the month after every release
16:44 Su-Shee joined #perl6
16:44 stmuk oh you arent moving the tag?
16:45 stmuk I think there needs needs to be a moving tag which targets the last v6.c
16:45 RabidGravy I only just realised this this morning:
16:45 RabidGravy m: use v6.d;
16:45 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/X46trQmbg5␤No compiler available for Perl v6.d␤at /tmp/X46trQmbg5:1␤------> 3use v6.d7⏏5;␤»
16:45 dalek perl6.org: a6085bb | (Zoffix Znet)++ | source/downloads/index.html:
16:45 dalek perl6.org: Change 6.c to 2015.12
16:45 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/a6085bb789
16:45 TimToady well, isn't build moar gonna target the latest?
16:45 RabidGravy m: use v6.c;
16:45 camelia rakudo-moar ec386e: ( no output )
16:46 [Coke] isn't moving tags bad?
16:46 TimToady and we don't really need "last v6c" till there's a v6d
16:46 * TimToady should probably wake up before saying much moar...
16:46 [Coke] if moving tags is ok, then sure.
16:47 stmuk is nom always going to be 6.c and not 6.d?
16:47 lucasb when explaining to the outside world the difference between specification/implementation, people could explore more the relationship with the same situtation in Common Lisp/Scheme languages. one thing is the language... other thing is the implementation.
16:47 [Coke] TimToady: did I see you were doing something musical yesterday?
16:47 RabidGravy that's fine, I think everyone is mostly doing gibberish anyway
16:47 brrt joined #perl6
16:47 TimToady night before
16:48 lucasb *situation
16:48 brrt merry christmas!
16:48 brrt or boxing day
16:48 brrt i guess
16:49 RabidGravy do they do boxing day in other-than-Britain ?
16:49 [Coke] TODAY I'm in a car for a 3 hour drive to in laws. :)
16:49 [Coke] RabidGravy: canada, mebbe?
16:50 stmuk I still think there should be a tag or branch which tracks the last rakudo release
16:50 musca joined #perl6
16:50 RabidGravy oh yeah, probably all manner of dodgy colonials
16:50 stmuk and that manually updating source/downloads/index.html every month is bad
16:50 * TimToady gets a 6 hour drive, twice as good
16:51 TimToady and away fromm the in laws :)
16:51 aenaxi RabidGravy: what exactly does 'doing boxing day' mean? its a holiday in sweden too, but name is different
16:51 ZoffixWin stmuk, wouldn't `rakudobrew build moar` do what we want, without anything extra?
16:51 ZoffixWin Get the latest and what not
16:51 RabidGravy we get a half hour drive over the river to the relatives
16:52 ZoffixWin aenaxi, it's a day when people go insane over rigged deals in stores
16:52 stmuk ZoffixWin: no because half way through a month the end user gets work in progress rather than a maybe more stable release at the month end
16:52 [Coke] we have many rivers to cross.
16:52 ZoffixWin And also, a day of major traffic jams
16:52 RabidGravy and beer
16:52 * diakopter drove from Utrecht to Hamburg today
16:53 ZoffixWin stmuk, then it sound like having some sort of a movable "stable" tag is a good idea.
16:53 TimToady ZoffixWin: maybe the default should be latest monthly, and devs have to say dev or HEAD or some such
16:53 ZoffixWin TimToady, or that
16:53 simcop2387 joined #perl6
16:53 brrt no, this is just the second-christmas-day in nl
16:53 stmuk yes that's what I mean
16:53 TimToady we do have triple, even though (afaik) it is still busticated
16:54 ZoffixWin OTOH, is rakudobrew the... um... "recommended" way to install P6 for end users? I'd think R* download should be for that and rakudobrew is for those who want the bleeding edge stuff
16:54 Skarsnik tadzik, wait actually I think it already does it, but I get Any for JSON
16:54 TimToady ZoffixWin: point
16:55 dalek doc/autarch/use-perl6-org-design: 33670f6 | (Dave Rolsky)++ | lib/DocSite/Generator.pm:
16:55 dalek doc/autarch/use-perl6-org-design: Remove unused arguments from !process-one-pod
16:55 dalek doc/autarch/use-perl6-org-design: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/33670f61e4
16:55 dalek doc/autarch/use-perl6-org-design: 4834c08 | (Dave Rolsky)++ | lib/DocSite/Generator.pm:
16:55 dalek doc/autarch/use-perl6-org-design: Use File::Find instead of our own implementation of recursive find
16:55 dalek doc/autarch/use-perl6-org-design: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/4834c08376
16:55 rjbs joined #perl6
16:55 RabidGravy yeah, it's "boxing day" because traditionally people would give "christmas boxes" to the tradespeople
16:55 zostay joined #perl6
16:55 RabidGravy as we don't really have tradespeople any more it's moot
16:55 * TimToady approaches the backlog with trepidation and sticks a toe in
16:55 mst TimToady: somebody used AUTOLOAD. you now have one less toe.
16:56 mst ZoffixWin: and the R* download will then build how?
16:56 stmuk ZoffixWin: probably means downloads/index.html should be a * quick start after the next release
16:56 mst I mean, rakudobrew only *currently* uses specific branches by default
16:56 mst making it capable of scuttering tags shouldn't be hard
16:56 stmuk mst: its a tarball with perl Configure.pl
16:56 ZoffixWin mst, whoever's making the R* release will build correct stuff
16:56 RabidGravy mst, I looked at Pete's config thing - it would be about twenty lines of MOP-munging
16:57 mst right, but rakudobrew is basically "a thing that runs condfigure, make, make install"
16:57 mst I don't see why it can't do that for a tarball -or- a tag -or- a branch head
16:57 RabidGravy nary an AUTOLOAD or FALLBACK in sight
16:57 stmuk rakudobrew doesn't really support --prefix whereas the usual configure.pl does
16:57 mst yet.
16:57 Skarsnik tadzik, I need the thing that check for defined to have my code to work
16:57 ZoffixWin mst, what do you mean "for a tarball"?
16:58 geekosaur joined #perl6
16:58 mst perlbrew can, IIRC, build both releases and blead
16:58 stmuk the use of tarballs is probably better long term since it moves off github
16:58 ZoffixWin mst, I don't think end users *need* to have rakudobrew at all. I think they'd just download an executable that installs the latest stable perl
16:59 * ZoffixWin shrugs
16:59 mst ...
16:59 sjn_phone joined #perl6
16:59 mst "I don't think end users need to have rakudobrew, they'd just download rakudobrew"
17:00 llfourn joined #perl6
17:00 Tonik joined #perl6
17:00 ZoffixWin mst, do they?
17:00 ZoffixWin mst, I only used R* on Windows, and it's a downloadable executable file that I just run and poof, I have perl 6
17:00 ZoffixWin Whereas when I used rakudobrew I had to mess with path variables and run commands
17:01 stmuk R* is usually source .. windows is the only binary build
17:01 sjn_phone_ joined #perl6
17:01 ZoffixWin ah
17:01 ZoffixWin k
17:02 mst ZoffixWin: that's the .msi sure
17:02 mst like strawberry provides a .msi for perl5
17:02 jcrespo joined #perl6
17:03 mst but I usually use perl-build to get my *n?x perls
17:03 sjn_phone_ joined #perl6
17:04 sjn_phone_ joined #perl6
17:07 RabidGravy in about a few weeks Fedora will have the 2015.12 as a package
17:07 sjn_phone_ left #perl6
17:08 Skarsnik If I was distribution I will only release a rakudo star version x)
17:08 RabidGravy they've been pretty likity split on the releases
17:09 stmuk RabidGravy: so in 2 years time RHEL gets exactly that version for the next 5 years :)
17:09 RabidGravy yeah
17:09 LLamaRider m: say ([1,2],[3,4]).flatmap({$^x}).perl; say ([1,2],[3,4]).flat.flatmap({$^x}).perl;
17:09 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«($[1, 2], $[3, 4]).Seq␤(1, 2, 3, 4).Seq␤»
17:09 kjs_ joined #perl6
17:09 LLamaRider any clue why there is a difference? I was expecting flatmap does an implicit flat
17:10 RabidGravy which is why whoever it was that was saying you should only use the vendor packages is entirely wrong
17:10 mst ZoffixWin: basically, for people doing ~/ installs, a way to have a single command for 'figure out latest stable, download and build that for me' would be nice
17:10 mst especially if you can re-run it later
17:10 ZoffixWin yeah
17:10 stmuk that doesn't need code changes just a policy about git tags and branches
17:11 mst I don't see anybody proposing code changes except to rakudobrew
17:11 RabidGravy bloody hell, "Stage mast       : 1142.558"
17:11 mst basically - I always used to build me own perls via 'sh Configure -Dprefix=... -des && make test && make install'
17:11 stmuk I don't see that needs a rakudobrew code change just a git change
17:11 mst but I've noticed that people are much less scared of just running perl-build
17:11 ZoffixWin m: say ((1, 2), <a b>).flatmap(&uc).join('|');
17:11 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«1 2|A B␤»
17:11 mst so I think we should ensure they have an equivalent
17:12 stmuk also people can use git without rakudubrew to track the last stable if it's just a tag or branch
17:12 ZoffixWin LLamaRider, seems like a bug... or at least the description and output in the docs doesn't match reality.
17:13 peteretep mst: Be nice to have a fool-proof Jenkins and deploy recipe top
17:13 peteretep too
17:13 RabidGravy the latter is probably more likely
17:13 ugexe joined #perl6
17:14 bitmap joined #perl6
17:14 RabidGravy the pace of change since October has been such that the docs have been mostly out of date for long periods
17:14 mst stmuk: yes. they *can*
17:14 mst I'm talking about making things *easier*
17:14 LLamaRider ZoffixWin: ok, so I didn't lose my sanity. That's good. What's the best way to report the issue?
17:15 ZoffixWin LLamaRider, I've just done it: https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=127036
17:15 LLamaRider another interesting novelty is that I get a runtime error if I .shift on an empty error. I am patching a p6 module I made some time ago to match the latest rakudo
17:15 LLamaRider empty array* sorry
17:15 ZoffixWin LLamaRider, and this is how to report bugs in the future: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo#reporting-bugs
17:15 ZoffixWin m: my @a; @a.shift
17:15 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«Cannot shift from an empty Array␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/rAITi2u2sF line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/rAITi2u2sF line 1␤␤»
17:16 ZoffixWin Seems this is expected behaviour....
17:16 ZoffixWin m: my @a; my $x = @a ?? @a.shift !! 'Nada'; say $x
17:16 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«Nada␤»
17:16 ZoffixWin m: my @a = ^10; my $x = @a ?? @a.shift !! 'Nada'; say $x
17:16 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«0␤»
17:19 stmuk mst: I think you missunderstand .. I want to use the same git command to track the last stable which isn't currently possible
17:20 stmuk something like the FreeBSD STABLE branch
17:20 mst stmuk: right, and I'm talking about allowing people to install from tarballs as well
17:20 mst not sure why you think what I'm suggesting is a bad thing
17:20 stmuk its not bad just not of particular interest to me
17:22 [Coke] working on a patch to give docs.perl6.org categorized search buckets.
17:22 RabidGravy I'm with both, make it happen
17:22 mst stmuk: ok, then don't phrase your "I want a different feature" as a criticism of the feature I'm proposing and things will be less confusing :)
17:23 stmuk I didn't .. anyway I'm leaving this convo since it doesn't seem to be progressing
17:23 RabidGravy Oh, stmuk++ you remind me, next up so if I can build this on freebsd 8.4
17:23 El_Che wow. Perl 6 is really released if we're fighting over infrastructure :)
17:23 El_Che good evening :)
17:24 * flussence is trying to make sense of how CUR works
17:24 RabidGravy magic pixie dust
17:25 RabidGravy that's my working hypothesis anyway
17:25 dalek doc/autarch/use-perl6-org-design: ee97173 | (Dave Rolsky)++ | t/typegraph.t:
17:25 dalek doc/autarch/use-perl6-org-design: Fix typegraph.t test
17:25 dalek doc/autarch/use-perl6-org-design: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/ee97173aaa
17:26 RabidGravy wow! the RPi build finally finished
17:26 [Coke] I will see if I can get the macport stuff resolved by new years. I had been putting it aside until I had time to figure out jvm vs. moar backends... but I am just going to do it for moar, can always add jvm later.
17:26 LLamaRider got it, thanks a bunch ZoffixWin ! and thanks for filing the bug report
17:28 mst 65
17:28 rurban1 joined #perl6
17:29 TimToady At the moment my hypotheses don't seem to be working...
17:29 stmuk is anyone looking at pkgsrc packaging BTW?
17:29 flussence yeah, atw<tab><tab>... bah
17:29 TimToady In fact, I think they're broken...
17:30 flussence atweiden++ is trying to do an arch package, I'm trying to do gentoo, both are blocked on precomp write permission issues
17:30 flussence I've been trying to figure this out for about a fortnight but I'm getting nowhere
17:31 RabidGravy nope that's not going to work 'cc1: error: unrecognized command line option "-Wno-logical-op-parentheses"'
17:32 RabidGravy don't think there's anyway out of that without some hacking
17:32 khw joined #perl6
17:35 ChoHag Precomp write permission issues, eh?
17:35 * ChoHag grabs popcorn
17:37 flussence if a single other person had bothered to test this in the real world back then, maybe I would've gotten noticed and all this could be avoided.
17:37 mst is this precomp going into the final install root rather than the fake root?
17:38 flussence yeah
17:38 flussence every other thing in that bit of the makefile uses $DESTDIR
17:38 ChoHag Pah! This is _open source_!
17:38 mst that's why the prototypes for my perl5 builder always use a fake install root for everything
17:38 mst even when there's no reason to whatsoever
17:38 ChoHag You don't test your code, you just commit it.
17:39 mst means I catch that sort of mistake automatically
17:39 mst well, y'know, TimToady promised a perl6 compiler for christmas.
17:39 mst and it does, indeed, compile - so they shipped it :D
17:39 ChoHag Mission accomplished.
17:40 * flussence also predicted there'd be a lot of annoying whiners who aren't helping -- http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-12-13#i_11708393
17:40 [Coke] We've said all along there's more work to do. Please be sure to file tickets for any issues you find so we can continue to improve.
17:41 mst I ... don't see anybody whining. ChoHag's being slightly silly
17:41 [Coke] Someone should bring the hug bot back.
17:41 mst I'm talking about general concepts
17:42 flussence sorry mst, just a bit frustrated... like nine was above
17:42 ChoHag Don't get frustrated.
17:43 ChoHag Computers don't care to spare one's feelings.
17:43 mst flussence: yes. it's aggravating that nobody tested this
17:43 mst but there's -bound- to be things you'll find that nobody tested
17:43 mst this always happens
17:43 mst I was commenting on "for things like that, people often don't, so it's often worth trying to make it so that code path is always followed"
17:43 TimToady flussence: I like the way you did it better than the way other people didn't. :)
17:44 mst this was meant to be a measure of solidarity, because I did that on my most recent toolchain project, specifically because I'd run into the same problem of lack of testing previously
17:44 * mst also shouted at TimToady when he decided to tell us ~~ in perl5 was completely wrong the day *after* 5.10.0 shipped ;)
17:45 TimToady :D
17:45 [Coke] Perhaps that was part of his secret plan!
17:45 flussence thing is, I *was* testing this stuff. But the one person writing all of it was already overworked and couldn't figure out how to reproduce it, and I couldn't convince anyone else to take a look :(
17:45 mst yeah, and that's a shame
17:45 flussence oh well
17:46 mst I have a list of things I'm going to do to rakudobrew that I significantly wish I'd done months ago
17:46 mst but I didn't have time or motivation to do them months ago
17:46 flussence I would've been fine if it was just me having problems, but seeing other people hitting the same thing really bothers me
17:46 mst so, uh, yeah. welcome to open source. people are awesome. people are terrible. real life gets in the way sometimes.
17:47 mst well, yes, watching other people having trouble configuring CPAN.pm for ~ installation is why I invented local::lib
17:47 mst so I do rather apprecaite the POV ;)
17:47 TimToady It's not what you do, it's what you do next.
17:47 * flussence makes a mental note to be slightly more loud and annoying next time something breaks
17:48 LLamaRider ZoffixWin: I may be hitting another gotcha
17:48 stmuk I think we need less loud and annoying rather than more
17:48 ChoHag Personally I'd have liked to be more useful than throwing faeces from the sidelines, but I've been somewhat busy moving country and building a house.
17:48 LLamaRider m: sub test {my Int @a = (2,3); return (1,@a) }; my ($one, @b) = test(); say @b.perl;
17:48 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«[Array[Int].new(2, 3),]␤»
17:48 ChoHag flussence: The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
17:48 LLamaRider m: sub test {my Int @a = (2,3); return (1,@a) }; my ($one, Int @b) = test(); say @b.perl;
17:48 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to @b; expected Int but got Array[Int]␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/6xgdXHsGr7 line 1␤␤»
17:48 flussence (is 2015.12 in Anyone Else's Distro yet?)
17:48 Skarsnik Probably not
17:49 mst flussence: hrm, you said DESTDIR is everywhere
17:49 Skarsnik maybe create a perl6-distrib ml and invite package people to talk in there? x)
17:49 mst flussence: I was assuming it was doing install-to-PREFIX
17:49 flussence mst: m-install target specifically
17:49 mst flussence: is it instead doing install-to-DESTDIR-but-fail-when-moved-to-PREFIX ?
17:50 mst sorry, I've no idea if I can help here, but this is the sort of problem I quite enjoy at the logical level :)
17:50 flussence everything else is going in DESTDIR, but it looks like tools/build/install-core-dist.pl gets its paths from whatever moar/nqp are installed to
17:50 flussence tries to put precomp stuff there, boom
17:51 mst ooooh, right
17:51 mst there's a lot of things being dependent on other things' paths around
17:51 * rindolf wonders if his Python->Perl 6 code translation a few days ago would go more smoothly if he added type annotations.
17:51 mst if I run 'perl bin/rakudobrew build moar' rather than adding bin/ to $PATH first, the shims don't turn up
17:51 mst (which was me not following the instructions right and I don't expect anybody except me to try and fix that one but still ;)
17:53 flussence I guess I could work around this with a lot of Makefile patching and manual precomp running... *shudder*
17:53 mst there's got to be an easier way
17:54 Skarsnik remove precomp? x)
17:54 mst patching that script to take DESTDIR and PREFIX might be an option
17:54 mst actually
17:55 mst looks to me like the trick would be to get .repository-for-name('perl') to get the one in DESTDIR?
17:56 * flussence is tempted to ping the guy who wrote the current perl6 gentoo stuff and ask if he knows any clever hacks for this kinda thing (I know he's here, but don't want to bother him this time of year :)
17:56 mst aha!
17:56 mst if CompUnit::RepostioryRegistry doesn't find a config file, it picks defaults based on $inst#prefix
17:57 mst %custom-lib<perl> = "inst#$prefix"
17:58 mst ah, and $prefix comes from nqp::backendconfig->{'prefix'}
17:58 mst so ... either find a more suitable heuristic for that
17:58 mst or supply a config somehow
17:58 mst should both, I -think-, get to the right goal
17:58 mst which of those is better I'm not 100% sure
17:58 mst probably depends how relocatable things are
17:59 flussence I did see something in the backlog about setting PERL6LIB= causing precomp stuff to be written to $PERL6LIB/.precomp, that might be an option
18:00 mst wait wait wait hang on
18:00 Skarsnik precomp seen like to solve a weird user case that actual real world case, or it's just my feeling about it?
18:00 mst argh
18:00 LLamaRider ZoffixWin: apparently it was a gotcha. I kind of get it, but not really. Here it is working:
18:00 mst flussence: there's actually code for # starting up for creating precomp
18:00 LLamaRider m: sub test() {my Int @a = (2,3); return (1, @a) }; my ($one, Array[Int] $b) = test(); say $b.perl;
18:00 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«Array[Int].new(2, 3)␤»
18:00 mst flussence: if %ENV<RAKUDO_PRECOMP_WITH> ->
18:01 mst flussence: top of setup-repositories()
18:01 llfourn joined #perl6
18:01 ChoHag Skarsnik: Precompilation isn't the problem. Blind, magic precompilation is the problem.
18:01 Rotwang Hi, what is the dir() equivealent from python? I'd like to list all methods available from the instance of a class.
18:02 ChoHag If it had more control knobs, it'd be fine.
18:02 flussence ^+1
18:02 mst but then that doesn't set up %custom-lib<perl>
18:02 mst I think 'fix and use that code path' is probably going to work
18:02 Skarsnik Rotwang, Class.^methods ?
18:03 flussence huh, it looks like RAKUDO_PRECOMP_WITH overrides everything (below that line) completely
18:03 Rotwang Skarsnik: thanks
18:03 flussence yeah, it skips %custom-lib entirely
18:03 mst yeah, I think I'm lying actually
18:03 flussence might give that a try and see what happens
18:03 mst and that code path is for PrecompilationRepository to trigger
18:04 mst look at line 76 of that or so
18:04 RabidGravy mst++ # setting a mildly irritated mst on a less than easily tractable problem is always the way to go :)
18:04 rurban joined #perl6
18:04 mst ooh, and precompile() is doing - my $io = self.store.destination($*PERL.compiler.id, $id);
18:04 flussence I'm just relieved someone smarter than me's looking at it :D
18:04 japhb [Coke]: Your claim for the January release didn't actually claim the January release -- it claimed Christmas, which you already did.  :-)
18:05 mst sooo ... what's self.store
18:05 flussence mst: that looks like something that writes to ~/.perl6/$version/
18:05 jme` joined #perl6
18:06 flussence CompUnit/RepositoryRegistry.pm line 112ish
18:06 mst flussence: that will, I think, depend upon configuration
18:06 flussence right, that's just custom-lib<home>
18:07 mst ok, so PrecompliationStore::File has a method destination
18:07 mst but that returns self.prefix
18:08 mst that's probably fine though
18:08 mst since we're going to copy the entire precomp thing from destdir to prefix during package install
18:08 s_kilk joined #perl6
18:10 s_kilk Is there supposed to be a difference in behaviour between using `$some-string ~~ $some-regex` vs `$some-string.match($some-regex)` ? I've just updated to the latest release of rakudo and had a failing test for one of my libraries.
18:11 s_kilk specifically, the ~~ used to return a match object, but now returns the boolean True. If I change to using .match the old behaviour returns
18:11 flussence s_kilk: ~~ overwrites $/, .match returns a Match object without setting $/
18:11 s_kilk ah, cool.
18:12 flussence (also $/ defines $0..$n also, so those aren't overwritten if you use .match)
18:12 s_kilk so ~~ is now semantically closer to "does match", with the side-effect of setting the $/ var, while .match is more imperative "match this and give me the matching values"
18:14 s_kilk Thanks :)
18:14 mst oh poo. I don't control where setup-repositories is called.
18:14 mst hrm
18:15 flussence Process.pm
18:15 mst yes
18:15 mst ok, I'm overcomplicating this, I think
18:16 flussence (oh, so *that's* why CU::RR just has "$*REPO" in sink context)
18:17 gist_nb joined #perl6
18:17 flussence m: multi sub INITIALIZE_DYNAMIC('$*FROB') { PROCESS::<$FROB> := 'meow' }; say $*FROB # just curious
18:17 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«Dynamic variable $*FROB not found␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/RdjbNjX0mf line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/RdjbNjX0mf line 1␤␤»
18:17 flussence m: multi sub INITIALIZE_DYNAMIC('$*FROB') { PROCESS::<$FROB> := 'meow' }; our $*FROB; say $*FROB
18:17 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
18:17 flussence oh, not as simple as it looked
18:18 mst yeah, its referencing $*REPO forces the setup method to be called
18:19 mst aha, aha, aha, aha, I miiiight know the answer here
18:19 andreoss joined #perl6
18:19 mst yeeeeesssss
18:19 ZoffixWin \o/
18:19 andreoss .seen masak
18:19 yoleaux I saw masak 09:53Z in #perl6: <masak> jnthn++ # https://6guts.wordpress.com/2015/12/26/reflecting-celebrating-and-looking-forward/
18:20 Tonik perl6 is pretty awesome. When can we expect to make it into the repositories of popular Linux distros?
18:20 Skarsnik Not now
18:20 mst flussence: ok, so, having dug
18:20 mst I believe
18:20 flussence 10 minutes if we're lucky...
18:20 RabidGravy Tonik, already in fedora
18:20 flussence oh, *popular* distros... nm :)
18:20 Tonik RabidGravy, sweet
18:20 Skarsnik I give it a month x)
18:20 mst flussence: CompUnit::RepositoryRegistry.repository-for-spec("inst#$full_prefix").install(
18:21 Tonik <Ubuntu RedHat CentOS>
18:21 hoelzro it's in Arch's AUR as well
18:21 mst flussence: and get $full_prefix by making the Makefile pass $DESTDIR$PREFIX as an arg to install-core-dist.pl
18:21 skyl4rk joined #perl6
18:21 s_kilk joined #perl6
18:21 mst flussence: might do the trick
18:21 mst flussence: can you try that? (and show me how you tested it, since I'm not 100% sure how to test it right, and if I test it wrong we'll be here all day ;)
18:21 flussence i'm on it
18:22 mst that way we bypass all the setup logic and just use the thing it uses -after- picking "inst#$wrong_prefix"
18:22 bsmk joined #perl6
18:23 cosarara_ this month's version doesn't build for arch though
18:23 cosarara_ make DESTDIR="$pkgdir" install is broken :(
18:23 mst cosarara_: that would be what flussence and I are current swearing at, yes :)
18:24 Skarsnik The last rakudo in debian
18:24 Skarsnik Package: rakudo
18:24 Skarsnik Version: 2015.09-2
18:25 Tonik is there finally a sweet syntax for "element" in @array?
18:25 RabidGravy [jonathan@coriolanus ecosystem]$ /usr/bin/perl6 -v
18:25 RabidGravy This is perl6 version 2015.11 built on MoarVM version 2015.11
18:25 mst cosarara_: hopefully once we get it nailed you can cherry pick the fix as a vendor patch to build an otherwise-vanilla 2015.12
18:25 vendethiel Tonik: any(@array) eq "el"?
18:25 Tonik oh wow
18:25 Tonik so that's what these any's are about
18:25 crux mst: also you need to run ./perl6 with param -Iinst#$(DESTDIR)$(PERL6_LANG_DIR)
18:25 vendethiel pretty much :-)
18:25 Tonik awesome
18:26 cosarara_ mst: oh nice
18:26 crux already done this task some hours ago )
18:26 mst crux: oooh, of course, or push it onto @INC some other way
18:26 flussence okay, let's see what that patch does to it...
18:26 skyl4rk hello, I am a little confused by modules.perl6.org listing IO::Socket::SSL, but not IO::Socket::INET, is this a case of a working SSL socket version being prioritized? anyone wanna fill me in?
18:26 mst crux: um. you already have a patch for install-core.pl ? if so, can we please have it rather than flailing towards our own? :)
18:26 flussence skyl4rk: INET is built in
18:27 RabidGravy what flussence said
18:28 crux mst: ok, but there is another issue with precompiled modules...
18:28 thomax hm. how do i manually install p6 packages with panda. i've learned with panda look i'm able to see and edit the package source code, but when i leave the shell opened via look, nothing changed. so where to go?
18:28 mst crux: ok, well, explain it and what you did to fix it?
18:29 LLamaRider Good luck with wrapping up the distro work everyone! My tiny perl6 module has now caught up with v6.c and the latest rakudo, happy I dusted it off (https://github.com/dginev/perl6-Lingua-EN-Sentence )
18:29 mst crux: we can't get solutions upstream if we know neither the problem nor the solution, and knowing the problem is at least a start :D
18:29 flussence thomax: if you know the package name, `panda install $foo`. if you're already in that directory, `panda install .`
18:30 thomax flussence: i tried panda install . in the shell opened by look but i interrupted it because it took to long.
18:30 skyl4rk flussence, RabidGravy: huh, thanks, I guess then I'm either doing something wrong when trying to use it, or I did a bad install...the search continues...
18:30 anaeem1_ joined #perl6
18:30 crux mst: http://git.altlinux.org/people/crux/packages/rakudo.git?p=rakudo.git;a=commitdiff;h=7c1c874d2637cac07f5e6afefd4a0a7485f8ba0d
18:31 andreoss .tell masak I've made some PRs for 007. You might want to consider them.
18:31 yoleaux andreoss: I'll pass your message to masak.
18:31 mst heh, yep, I think that's exactly what I was expecting once you pointed out I'd forgotten -I
18:31 mst flussence: ^^ I think crux's patch is basically what we were trying to write
18:31 RabidGravy m: IO::Socket::INET.^methods>>.^name.say
18:31 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«List␤»
18:31 mst crux: so, what was t'other problem?
18:31 RabidGravy m: IO::Socket::INET.^methods>>.say
18:31 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«FALLBACK␤gist␤new␤»
18:32 flussence ooh, that looks saner yeah
18:33 TimToady I would like to publicly thank nine for his monumental efforts over the last several months.  In the larger scheme of things, the few remaining flaws are completely dwarfed by the magnificence of what he's accomplished, and in any case can be completely blamed on me for rushing things.  :)
18:33 RabidGravy TimToady++ nine++ everyone++
18:34 flussence retrying build now...
18:34 mst blame is showing that the fact there's code there to debug seems to be mostly nine and lizmat's faults
18:34 crux mst: precompiled modules stored at /usr/share/perl6/precomp but not used, perl6 recompile them at first run in $HOME/.perl6 and load from there
18:34 Skarsnik err that sucks
18:34 thomax flussence: can it be that a running panda look blocks/locks a concurrent panda install . ?
18:34 TimToady yes, hearty ++ to everyone who actually Did The Work
18:35 mst crux: curious
18:35 devop joined #perl6
18:35 mst this may indicate more debugging of setup-repositories being required
18:35 TimToady as they say, you can steer a moving ship
18:35 flussence thomax: how much CPU% is it showing? if it's hovering around 20ish, that's probably a locking bug
18:35 ZoffixWin -_- the perl6.org homepage looks a bit outta whack
18:35 mst I hear some guy edited it without preview. blame him.
18:35 cognominal if we judge by all the features crammed in Perl 6 this last year, it is gathering steam.
18:35 thomax flussence: no cpu usage
18:35 ZoffixWin mst, XD
18:36 flussence yeah, I think that's "the" locking bug people have been getting :(
18:37 thomax flussence: ok, i removed the .lock and now it does like expected
18:38 ChoHag Speaking of bugs as a person not Doing The Work, has anyone else commented on the fact that perl6-debug-m keeps respawning moar?
18:38 flussence ugh, portage is whining about this new patch even though it's exactly the same git-diff format I tried 5 minutes ago...
18:38 ChoHag I've been out basically all day and haven't had a chance to either find out more information or report it.
18:38 thomax flussence: fixed a bug in Data::Dump, ty :-)
18:39 skyl4rk allright, I found what my error was, I assumed (from p5) that I needed to 'use IO::Socket::INET;'
18:40 uruwi How to look into a type object?
18:40 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
18:41 RabidGravy skyl4rk, yeah all the types described on docs.perl6.org are comiled in
18:41 RabidGravy compiled
18:41 mst aha
18:41 mst I think we might be able to skip the -I stage
18:42 RabidGravy uruwi, http://doc.perl6.org/language/mop
18:42 mst $*REPO.use-repository(CompUnit::RepositoryRegistry.repository-for-spec($spec));
18:42 mst flussence: ^^ maybe worth trying that as cleaner
18:42 mst crux: clearly it would help if they were used, but "installed at all" would be a start :)
18:43 skyl4rk RabidGravy: ah I see, thanks again
18:43 uruwi RabidGravy: as in if I have an Array[Int], then I want to know the type parameter.
18:44 flussence mst: is that while leaving the makefile as-is?
18:44 Skarsnik hm good question uruwi
18:44 thomax i know, it's not the best place for 'official bug fixes' but i don't care. pick it or not: http://pastebin.ca/3303075 fixes, that Num didn't get displayed in Data::Dump
18:44 mst flussence: the makefile will still need to pass $DESTDIR$PREFIX or whatever it is as the first ARGV
18:44 RabidGravy uruwi, in that case:
18:44 RabidGravy m: say Array[Int].of
18:44 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
18:44 flussence oh right, that's what $spec is...
18:44 mst flussence: you just don't need to duplicate it that way, because the -I would I think happen internally
18:44 Skarsnik thomax, ? Numeric work for me to display Num
18:44 mst flussence: yarr
18:45 uruwi Thanks
18:45 thomax Skarsnik: well, for me it displays 'failure'
18:46 TimToady I would also like to publicly thank ChoHag for toning down his natural Flair For The Dramatic :)
18:47 flussence and toning it up
18:47 nine Sad truth is that e can't use the precomp files generated during install most of the time due to the $HOME repo being in front of the chain
18:47 ChoHag There's nothing natural about it.
18:47 Skarsnik root@testperl6:~/piko/perl6-data-dump# perl6 -MData::Dump -I lib -e 'say Dump({a => 4.0e0})'  --> {
18:47 Skarsnik a => 4e0.Num,}
18:48 ChoHag It's finely honed.
18:48 domidumont1 joined #perl6
18:48 seetho joined #perl6
18:48 mst nine: ok, how come that stops use of precomp? (this may be a stupid question but)
18:48 nine I will need a couple of quiet hours to find a proper solution which I just won't find in Christmas time
18:48 molaf joined #perl6
18:48 mst I mean, this is precompiling the core, which is generally third after site and vendor anyway
18:49 nine mst jnthn's gist should explain this quite well
18:49 mst so ... if it's being loaded from that repository, wouldn't a precomp in that repository be a candaiddte?
18:49 mst ok,, I've been flailing through the source from the error messages up, as I always do
18:49 mst it's been quite pleasant to flail through, mind :)
18:50 mst nine: where would I find that? :)
18:50 nine I sneaked away from family to check on thecchannel and have to go back now. Will have more time in a couple of hours
18:50 Skarsnik It's fine ^^
18:50 stmuk https://gist.github.com/jnthn/47a42b2e86e7e552b2e2
18:50 Skarsnik don't rush things :)
18:50 mst nine: I'm having fun anyway :D
18:51 mst nine: you know I'm a weirdo and like hating toolchain code :)
18:51 b2gills m: say eager ^100 .hyper.map: {$_ if .is-prime}
18:51 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«(67 71 73 79 83 89 97 2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61)␤»
18:54 * TimToady is no longer a weirdo, he's up to weirdz or weirea by now...
18:55 ChoHag Well weirdo *is* so 80s...
18:55 thowe joined #perl6
18:55 Ulti O M G "This is Rakudo version 2015.12-1-ga563e89 built on MoarVM version 2015.12 implementing Perl 6.c." yay! Amazing holiday efforts!
18:56 thowe Hi.  I was just nattering on to mst about how I think there should be a Camelia 2015 tree ornament to remember the occasion by...
18:56 Ulti after Diwali is it going to be Eid? are there enough holiday names...
18:57 TimToady m: my $w = 'weirdo'; $w++ xx 2015 - 1987; say $w
18:57 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«weireq␤»
18:57 mst nine: right, yeah, elgibility is going to be interesting when stacking repositories ...
18:58 mst nine: I think ... the trick will be to keep the resolutions with the precompilation, so when you're in repo X atop Y, if Y has a precomp unit, you rerun its dep resolutions against X+Y and then if those all return the same thing, the precomp is still eligible
18:59 Ulti right now the spec is set I can fix all the bugs in my BioInfo modules and get the tests running again >:3 think I did a lot of the GLR ones but hashes changed around when I gave up keeping up the pace set in this channel :P
18:59 mst nine: as soon as you e.g. install a dual life version in X (or whatever, using p5 terms) then that would resolve and that'd invalidate the recomp and you'd rebuild it for X
18:59 flussence hm, I think I ballsed that one up. $spec is "inst#$(DESTDIR)$(PREFIX)" but I get «Method 'use-repository' not found for invocant of class 'CompUnit::Repository::Installation'»
18:59 mst flussence: oh huh, maybe I got this totally wrong, sec
18:59 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
19:00 mst flussence: argh. ok. that's a registery method, I suck
19:00 llfourn joined #perl6
19:00 Ulti P6.c is genuinely the best xmas present I've had this year, thanks
19:00 mst flussence: CompUnit::RepositoryRegistry.use-repositoriy(CompUnit::RepositoryRegistry.repository-for-spec($spec));
19:00 mst flussence: barring I can't spell repository
19:00 mst flussence: looks about right
19:01 mst nine: note if the above waffle sounds about right I'd be happy to talk it over a bit more later (heading out fairly soon for social stuff)
19:01 flussence just tried that, it brings me back to the original permission errors: «Failed to create directory '/usr/share/perl6/dist' with mode '0o777': Failed to mkdir: 13»
19:01 flussence command line I'm using is `~/code/rakudo $ ./perl6-m --ll-exception tools/build/install-core-dist.pl install-foo/usr`
19:02 mst can I see the exact code you have now in dist.pl?
19:03 flussence https://gist.github.com/flussence/19627ee76cdd15f20a54 there's the diff
19:04 flussence ...and now I realise where I did it wrong
19:04 mst flussence: oh?
19:05 flussence think I needed a s/inst#/file#/ here
19:05 flussence nm, that just gives me a method not found
19:05 thomax Skarsnik: oh, i see. someone else fixed it in betewwn :-)
19:06 thomax betweem...
19:06 thomax argl
19:07 mst flussence: why ... why is it trying to ...
19:07 Milijus joined #perl6
19:07 domidumont joined #perl6
19:08 Milijus Happy Birthday P6!
19:08 mst use-repository definitely returns the repo object
19:08 mst the code relies on that
19:08 mst flussence: is $spec definitely what you think it is/
19:09 mst note "Precompiling core into $spec"; strikes me as maybe a good thing to add
19:09 flussence if I have inst# in there, «dd CompUnit::RepositoryRegistry.repository-for-spec($spec);» output looks sane
19:09 flussence i.e. CompUnit::Repository::Installation.new("/home/ant/code/rakudo/install-foo/usr")
19:10 mst right, and use-repository should set .next-repo on it, set $*REPO to it, and return the new $*REPO
19:10 flussence yeah, that bit looks right too...
19:10 flussence and then for whatever reason CUR just goes off and tries to mkdir something totally unrelated ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
19:11 mst CUR?
19:11 mst oh *my*
19:11 mst oh my oh my oh my
19:11 mst I think I know why it's broken
19:11 TimToady m: my int @a[2,2]; say @a.shape
19:11 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«(2 2)␤»
19:11 TimToady m: my int @a[2;2]; say @a.shape
19:11 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«(2 2)␤»
19:12 mst the precomp stuff will instantiate precomp handling stuff for the further-up things in the repo chain
19:12 TimToady hmm, that was supposed to error on comma and point you to semicolon, oh well
19:12 mst and then the precomp handling tries to mkdir its directories
19:12 TimToady we wanted to reserve comma for lists of keys for hashes
19:12 mst bet if you could write to PREFIX it'd create empty dirs in there, then correctly build into DESTDIR
19:12 mst note that I know that doesn't help you exactly
19:17 mst wait, no, 'dist' is not 'precomp'
19:18 colomon joined #perl6
19:18 mst flussence: oh my.
19:18 mst flussence: fetching !dist-dir() on an Installation creates the 'dist' directory if not present
19:19 mst flussence: and we'll be searching the earlier ones
19:19 dalek gtk-simple: 9ab87a7 | RabidGravy++ | lib/GTK/Simple.pm6:
19:19 dalek gtk-simple: Adjust the usage of Supply per latest implementation
19:19 dalek gtk-simple: review: https://github.com/perl6/gtk-simple/commit/9ab87a7ef0
19:19 dalek gtk-simple: 69b1ee4 | RabidGravy++ | lib/GTK/Simple.pm6:
19:19 dalek gtk-simple: Merge pull request #21 from jonathanstowe/master
19:19 dalek gtk-simple:
19:19 dalek gtk-simple: Adjust the usage of Supply per latest implementation
19:19 dalek gtk-simple: review: https://github.com/perl6/gtk-simple/commit/69b1ee44a1
19:19 flussence I have a feeling most of those mkdirs shouldn't be there...
19:19 mst right. time to break out the shovel.
19:19 mst yes. but equally, we don't need to do this.
19:19 mst sec
19:19 RabidGravy that's got a lot of users that are tracking a recent rakudo then ;-)
19:20 mst flussence: PROCESS::<$REPO> := CompUnit::RepositoryRegistry.repository-for-spec($spec);
19:20 mst flussence: $*REPO.install(...);
19:20 mst flussence: I think
19:20 mst since we actually -want- to only have that core repo in the list
19:21 mst since installation -target- directories shouldn't be participating in setup AFAICS
19:21 colomon joined #perl6
19:21 flussence that... that's doing something other than erroring immediately
19:22 mst excellent. that means if we've still broken it, we've at least broken it *interestingly*
19:22 mst which is totally progress :D
19:22 flussence it worked in my local checkout, lemme see what happens when I try to make the OS install it
19:22 skyl4rk I think I found a tiny bug in in the perl6 learnxinyminutes tutorial, anybody wanna give me a reality check? (commit to fix the bug, as well as description: https://github.com/tlvb/learnxinyminutes-docs/commit/5556?diff=unified#diff-57db)
19:23 mst crux: thanks very much for the initial hints, if you run into this stuff again, please, please, show us what you did, you already made life noticeably easier today :D
19:24 mst I do, however, think the mkdirs are absolutely the wrong thing, since it should be possible to put a path you can't create into @INC just in case it's there
19:25 mst I don't, however, think that what I'd been trying that triggered that was the right thing to do anyway ;)
19:25 flussence afaik the makefile already puts those there correctly anyway
19:25 Ulti is there any way to get the size in memory of a given variable?
19:25 mst flussence: more importantly, it shouldn't blow up in general
19:26 mst flussence: PERL6LIB=/no/you/are/spooned/my/son
19:26 mst flussence: shouldn't result in a die-on-failed-mkdir, no matter what
19:28 flussence well, it installed. put all the files in the wrong place on the live filesystem, but it installed :D
19:28 * flussence tweaks the makefile a bit
19:32 mst flussence: anything else you want me to curse at?
19:33 flussence almost there, it's just chewing through `make test` before install
19:33 mst cool. I'm about to start prepping to move, is all
19:33 flussence I think I can finish it up from here :D
19:34 RabidGravy mst++ flussence++ # hunt that sucker down
19:34 mst ... I just realised, that's the first line of actual perl6 I've ever written.
19:34 flussence mst++ did most of the hard work, I'm just a volunteer guinea pig :)
19:34 RabidGravy squeeeeeeeeeee
19:34 flussence 14/17 test files...
19:36 colomon mst++
19:36 flussence ~ $ perl6 --version
19:36 flussence This is Rakudo version 2015.12 built on MoarVM version 2015.12
19:36 flussence implementing Perl 6.c.
19:36 flussence ????
19:36 uruwi How to convert native types from unsigned to signed and vice versa?
19:36 Skarsnik what do you call native type?
19:37 * Skarsnik think that type for NC should be specific/renamed
19:37 uruwi For example, uint8 <--> int8
19:37 mst flussence: so it that "the package works" ?
19:38 flussence that's /usr/bin/perl6
19:38 lizmat joined #perl6
19:38 TimToady m: my uint8 $a = 200; my int8 $b; $b = $a; say $b
19:38 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unknown coercion case for int8; got: 17␤»
19:38 mst flussence: \o/
19:38 flussence \time perl6 -e 1 looks like the precomp stuff went in correctly too
19:38 mst flussence++ # clear problem report, patient guinea pig
19:38 Skarsnik m: my int8 $a = 250; my uint8 $b = $a: say $b;
19:38 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/d1cOSrwCtB␤Confused␤at /tmp/d1cOSrwCtB:1␤------> 3my int8 $a = 250; my uint8 $b = $a:7⏏5 say $b;␤    expecting any of:␤        colon pair␤»
19:38 Skarsnik m: my int8 $a = 250; my uint8 $b = $a; say $b;
19:38 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«250␤»
19:39 flussence now I just gotta write up a blog post in the form of a pull request :)
19:39 uruwi I know that works, but was looking for a method that doesn't require a temporary variable
19:39 mst tell me when it's up and I'll tweet it
19:39 Skarsnik m: my int8 $a = 250; my uint8 $b = $a; say $a; say $b;
19:39 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«-6␤250␤»
19:39 mst I probably have a few followers who appreciated a good bit of toolchainish masochism
19:39 ork_ joined #perl6
19:39 Begi joined #perl6
19:39 flussence will be a while, I want to get this right if a bunch of people are gonna see it
19:40 Skarsnik m: my uint8 $a = 200; say $a.uint8;
19:40 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«Method 'uint8' not found for invocant of class 'Int'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/XY2yoM4cb4 line 1␤␤»
19:40 mst flussence: so long as you get the patch in first, you can take as long as you like on the write up
19:40 mst BUT
19:40 ork_ p6: say 3 + 10;
19:40 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«13␤»
19:40 mst I would seriously suggest showing the first draft to people
19:40 mst they will often say "just ship that, it's already good"
19:40 mst 33
19:41 mst I basically always post my first draft, because I've concluded that two 85% good posts are better value to somebody than one 95% good post
19:42 TimToady in general, in Perl 6 native types are only storage locations, and temporaries happen in full precision
19:42 flussence I'm a terrible writer, I'm absolutely not sending this in without some second opinions :)
19:42 b2gills thomax: if(...) is for calling a subroutine named &if, or for coercing to a class named ::if
19:42 uruwi Agh, can't have native types for hash values.
19:42 Skarsnik how native str are encoded?
19:43 wolphin joined #perl6
19:45 woolfy joined #perl6
19:48 uruwi What methods do I need to implement to extend Cool?
19:49 TimToady whatever methods Cool uses to auto-coerce things
19:49 uruwi So Str and Num?
19:49 domidumont joined #perl6
19:49 TimToady I dunno, read the class :)
19:49 uruwi * Str and Int
19:50 TimToady at a guess, it probably uses Numeric and Stringy and such
19:52 woolfy Interesting approach to Perl 6: be an early adopter, it's good for your CV: http://programming.tudorconstantin.com/2015/12/the-perl6-gold-rush-began.html
19:53 RabidGravy yeah I'm not entirely convinced by that but we'll see :)
19:54 dalek rakudo/nom: 07fecb5 | (Dave Rolsky)++ | docs/announce/2015.12.md:
19:54 dalek rakudo/nom: I appreciate the thanks, but once is enough
19:54 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/07fecb52eb
19:54 dalek rakudo/nom: 446a3ca | lizmat++ | docs/announce/2015.12.md:
19:54 dalek rakudo/nom: Merge pull request #652 from autarch/patch-1
19:54 dalek rakudo/nom:
19:54 dalek rakudo/nom: I appreciate the thanks, but once is enough
19:54 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/446a3ca324
19:55 Skarsnik I want my SO poinnts!
19:55 Skarsnik I did not even found that much job offer for perl, I don't see the point of putting perl6 on my CV x)
19:56 pdcawley joined #perl6
19:57 RabidGravy yeah, if an employer was interested in Perl 6 enough they'd know ;-)
19:58 Elronnd left #perl6
19:59 uruwi Any way to convert a Blob to the number it represents other than by operating on the bytes themselves?
19:59 woolfy It's not "interested right now".  You never build up a CV with interesting stuff for now.  You build a CV to help you at some point in life.  It might be right now, and it might be at a moment where it confuses you, makes a mess of your life, or be like a needed miracle.
20:00 woolfy Havind Perl 6 on your CV is not a bad thing.  Having some modules for Perl 6 (and/or Perl 5!) is not a bad thing.  Having modules that lots of people use, makes you interesting, and some companies might even modify a job so you could fit in.
20:01 llfourn joined #perl6
20:01 ilmari uruwi: .List
20:02 ilmari m: Blob.new(123,103).List[0].WHAT.say
20:02 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
20:02 uruwi As in if I have Blob.new(1, 2, 3, 4) then I want 0x01020304
20:03 uruwi Even better, doing it for floating-point types as well.
20:03 uruwi m: 256:<1 2 3 4>
20:03 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/d42tEScoHx␤You can't adverb 256␤at /tmp/d42tEScoHx:1␤------> 256:<1 2 3 4>7⏏5<EOL>␤»
20:03 ilmari unpack?
20:04 uruwi m: Blob.new(1, 2, 3, 4).unpack("I")
20:04 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«Use of the 'unpack' method is experimental; please 'use experimental :pack'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/1_pju2G87H line 1␤␤»
20:04 RabidGravy m: say Blob.new(1, 2, 3, 4).unpack("N")
20:04 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«Use of the 'unpack' method is experimental; please 'use experimental :pack'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/SkxVmo5kQO line 1␤␤»
20:04 uruwi m: use experimental :pack Blob.new(1, 2, 3, 4).unpack("N")
20:04 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/Ol51FAttGy␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/Ol51FAttGy:1␤------> 3use experimental :pack7⏏5 Blob.new(1, 2, 3, 4).unpack("N")␤    expecting any of:␤        infix␤        infix stopper␤»
20:04 uruwi m: use experimental :pack ;Blob.new(1, 2, 3, 4).unpack("N")
20:04 nine mst: the nice part of the current implementation is that we don't have to re-run the dependency resolution for a precomped module. Once we identified the right precomp file, we can load all its transistent dependencies directly without going through all repos again.
20:04 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: ( no output )
20:04 RabidGravy m: use experimental :unpack; say Blob.new(1, 2, 3, 4).unpack("N")
20:04 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/sHU3e2eni8␤Error while importing from 'experimental': no such tag 'unpack'␤at /tmp/sHU3e2eni8:1␤------> 3use experimental :unpack7⏏5; say Blob.new(1, 2, 3, 4).unpack("N")␤»
20:04 RabidGravy m: use experimental :pack; say Blob.new(1, 2, 3, 4).unpack("N")
20:04 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«16909060␤»
20:05 uruwi m: use experimental :pack; say Blob.new(1, 2, 3, 4).unpack("N").base(16);
20:05 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«1020304␤»
20:05 dalek tablets: ecf9fdc | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-a-index.txt:
20:05 dalek tablets: A +ops: (cont) (elem), fix links to B
20:05 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/ecf9fdc135
20:05 edehont joined #perl6
20:05 uruwi Never aware that I could use that.
20:05 domidumont joined #perl6
20:05 lichtkind joined #perl6
20:05 RabidGravy people don't like it, so it's "experimental"
20:06 flussence https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fb00ed3d71f9407a776c82f03855d1242997878c # okay, here's a commit with a crudely cobbled together wall of text. lemme know if it needs improving :)
20:06 flussence if not, I'll go hit the pull request button in a few minutes
20:06 uruwi So should I not expect for it to stay?
20:07 Skarsnik uruwi, I think someone was working out a better API for Blob
20:07 RabidGravy well it will either get improved or replaced
20:07 shlomif joined #perl6
20:07 uruwi m: say Blob.new(80, 80, 80, 80).unpack("N");
20:07 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«Use of the 'unpack' method is experimental; please 'use experimental :pack'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/llktbYtZiq line 1␤␤»
20:08 uruwi m: use experimental :pack; say Blob.new(80, 80, 80, 80).unpack("N");
20:08 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«1347440720␤»
20:08 RabidGravy it's possible that something different will come from module space
20:08 uruwi m: use experimental :pack; say Blob.new(128, 128, 128, 128).unpack("N");
20:08 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«2155905152␤»
20:08 uruwi m: use experimental :pack; say Blob.new(200, 128, 128, 128).unpack("N");
20:08 camelia rakudo-moar a563e8: OUTPUT«3363864704␤»
20:10 RabidGravy flussence, seems cool to me
20:13 LLamaRider joined #perl6
20:14 Rotwang can I have short options with MAIN sub? Without multisub MAIN?
20:14 flussence Rotwang: something like :o(:$option) works iirc
20:14 Rotwang eg. sub MAIN(:$verbose) {...} # would accept ./prog -v and ./prog --verbose
20:15 ork_ left #perl6
20:16 timotimo o/
20:16 timotimo what did i miss half of today?
20:16 RabidGravy harr!
20:17 Skarsnik A lot x)
20:17 flussence timotimo: mst wrote a line of perl6 code :D
20:17 timotimo wow, holy crap
20:19 flussence now I'm just figuring out if the same sort of workaround is needed to make `make test` run properly...
20:19 tadzik . o O ( the most misunderstood 'say "hello world"' ever )
20:20 Rotwang flussence: indeed it does work, but not sure how, so :ident("something") is equivalent to ident => "something" and :$ident is equivalent to ident => $ident, so :o(:$option) is equivalent to o => option => $option ?
20:20 gfldex m: sub MAIN (:v(:verbose($v))) {}
20:20 camelia rakudo-moar 446a3c: ( no output )
20:21 gfldex that $v could be named differently ofc
20:23 flussence okay, looks like I *do* need something for `make test`...
20:24 b2gills Rotwang: Yes exactly. It's a bit of special cased usage of a general syntax
20:26 timotimo are JRuby and Jython still actively developed at all?
20:26 gfldex m: sub MAIN (:v(:verbose($vee)) = False ) { $vee.WHAT.say };
20:26 camelia rakudo-moar 446a3c: OUTPUT«(Bool)␤»
20:27 dalek rakudo/nom: d031905 | lizmat++ | src/core/Date (3 files):
20:27 dalek rakudo/nom: Put in some Date opts that didn't make 2015.12
20:27 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d031905ed4
20:27 timotimo seems so
20:28 Rotwang flussence: b2gills: thanks
20:28 dalek tablets: e2bf5f1 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/report.pl:
20:28 dalek tablets: report file size in kb
20:28 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/e2bf5f1f15
20:29 jeturcotte joined #perl6
20:30 flussence if I do RAKUDO_PRECOMP_WITH=$(mktemp -d) I can get the nativecall sanity tests to run, but it ain't pretty, nor using automatic precomp.
20:31 jeturcotte pff, even after yesterday's change to io::socket::async it doesn't talk well to ye olde telnet client, but INET does
20:33 timotimo i'm surprised we're not getting drowned by trolls right now
20:34 dalek rakudo/nom: cb2db79 | lizmat++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
20:34 dalek rakudo/nom: Sorta voluntell Coke, japhb++
20:34 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/cb2db79b86
20:34 RabidGravy merifully quiet really
20:34 flussence timotimo: social media acts as a sponge for that sort of thing, I think
20:34 RabidGravy mercifully
20:34 timotimo mhm mhm
20:35 timotimo woolfy: i think that one pingback to your "why should i use perl 6" post is spam
20:36 * lizmat told woolfy
20:36 yoleaux 13:56Z <jdv79> lizmat: i saw your ticket about spec'ing packages(mods,classes,etc) vs dist - was there any further movement on that?
20:36 jeturcotte should I just have understood that io::socket:async listening shouldn't be useful in talking to a telnet client, or can it and I'm just doing sump'n stupidly wrong?
20:36 lizmat .tell jdv79 not sure what ticket you mea
20:36 yoleaux lizmat: I'll pass your message to jdv79.
20:37 * flussence appears to be confused
20:38 * woolfy thanks timotimo, I trashed the comment, and reported it as spam.
20:38 flussence setting RAKUDO_PRECOMP_WITH seems to disable precomp and break module loading entirely. That gets `make test` through most of the stuff but the last few actually «use Test;»
20:39 flussence ohh... if I set it to file#lib it works
20:39 espadrine joined #perl6
20:39 lizmat RAKUDO_PRECOMP_WITH is only intended for internal use only
20:39 lizmat not sure what you guys are trying to achieve here...
20:39 Skarsnik Hm, is there a way to add multi sub in an already loaded module?
20:40 flussence lizmat: trying to get rakudo's `make test` to work when nqp is installed to /usr/bin
20:40 lizmat should 'make test' precomp at all ?
20:40 Skarsnik flussence, hm, it does not work after a make?
20:41 flussence make doesn't precompile Test.pm, make install does that...
20:42 Khisanth joined #perl6
20:42 jeturcotte pff, i just started rereading some dragonlance the other day
20:43 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
20:45 timotimo only 5.4k visitors on the advent calendar today and 5.9k yesterday
20:45 timotimo would probably have been 10x that if we had announced something super scandalous instead :)
20:45 RabidGravy but it's still early
20:46 timotimo like "perl 6 is in reality the project to create a huge space ark that catapults programmers into space towards a previously unpublicised extrasolar earth-like planet"
20:47 timotimo "larry wall unveils perl 6 has been about environment control and takes his position as sovereign ruler of the earth by immobilizing america's army with a gigantic swarm of butterflies"
20:47 jast is that scandalous?
20:47 lucasb joined #perl6
20:47 RabidGravy jeturcotte, gist your code or is it just the example from the doc page?
20:47 timotimo jast: it is to all those people not being taken away
20:47 jast right, makes sense
20:48 timotimo because right now that ark is already launching!
20:48 timotimo tune in to spaceX tv to see it launch!
20:48 jast iff the extrasolar planet is super great
20:48 RabidGravy if the latter it's probably my fault as I wrote the example :)
20:48 jast e.g. with trees made of solid gold
20:48 mrsolo joined #perl6
20:49 timotimo you should read about the "counterweight continent" :)
20:49 timotimo also, it will look that much greater once the citizens of the "first world countries" get to see what it's like to have swarms of "tropical insects" and illnesses at their doorstep, etc etc
20:50 RabidGravy it does amuse me that there is just so much whining and bitciness about the logo
20:50 timotimo there's really not that much
20:50 timotimo also, don't forget that go has a dopey-looking gopher
20:50 RabidGravy "well actually it's a test to check if you're the kind of person we want"
20:51 timotimo yeah :)
20:51 jeturcotte hey, RabidGravy; just the sample from perl6.org... before and after yesterday's update, the INET version will echo to a connected telnet client but the async one will not... when I dig alittle deeper, it notices and holds the connection but it's like they aren't actually talking to each other
20:51 jast I was going to check out Perl 6 but then I saw it didn't have one of those generic, instantly forgotten logos everyone has these days, and now I'm going to go look at PHP instead
20:52 RabidGravy I never tested the example with telnet :)
20:52 nine flussence++ # taking on sucky installation problems
20:52 jeturcotte i was meaning to use this to teach myself perl6...  make a little asnync/concurrent mud engine... it works up to that point; they just don't talk so far as I can tell
20:53 timotimo cool, a mud engine :)
20:53 lucasb $ perl6 -v  #=> This is Rakudo ... built on MoarVM ... <NEWLINE> implementing Perl 6.c.
20:53 lucasb is that newline really intended? :)
20:53 flussence nine++ # giving me something to do this weekend :)
20:54 timotimo i think so
20:55 movl joined #perl6
20:55 jeturcotte conversely, I haven't yet made the INET edition play nice with the tic loop; probably my lack of familiarity with start, await, whenever, et cetera
20:56 RabidGravy I'll look in a minute
20:56 lucasb ok, then. I see other warnings/errors with newlines embedded. I don't understand the need to manually break lines, since the terminal already will do so.
20:56 nine flussence: FWIW I'm not sure why we actually need to change install-core-dist.pl. It uses exactly the same logic to find the installation directory that perl6 will later use to load the installed modules. So if we just change the script, how will perl6 find the installed modules?
20:57 xfix joined #perl6
20:57 flussence the problem is they *haven't* been installed at that point, so all that logic doesn't help, and the mkdir stuff is actively harmful because it kills the process
21:00 nine flussence: that the modules are not installed yet is no issue, but CompUnit::RepositoryRegistry.repository-for-name('perl') should really give the same repo before and after installation. And when we install the CORE dist, we really ought to have write permission to the target directory.
21:01 nine flussence: I guess I really need a quick intro on how the $DESTDIR thing works in rakudo's build system. I've never used it or seen it used.
21:01 flussence I think distro people would take issue with a build process wanting write access to /usr/share...
21:02 nine But make install is not the build process?! It's installation
21:02 labster joined #perl6
21:02 llfourn joined #perl6
21:03 nine How would installation without write permission ever work?
21:03 flussence yeah, it installs to DESTDIR, and on gentoo (and apparently arch too) the contents of DESTDIR gets copied out of a limited-privilege sandbox to the live filesystem
21:04 nine Now _that_ sounds broken to me.
21:05 tadzik m: multi foo { }; &foo.HOW.perl.say
21:05 camelia rakudo-moar cb2db7: OUTPUT«Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW.new␤»
21:06 jeturcotte for the room in general, what concurrency command might I be overlooking where I can just tell perl6... hey go do this function over here until told otherwise?
21:06 nine Can precompiled files even be moved around freely?
21:06 jeturcotte edit: independently, that is, except for share memory
21:07 timotimo tadzik: yeah, routine is a class that you can derive from and mix into
21:08 tadzik yep
21:08 lucasb timotimo: seriously? or are you joking about the bug? :)
21:08 tadzik timotimo: with Skarsnik we're exploring a possibility of adding a new candidate to a multi, post-factum
21:08 timotimo sorry, what exactly?
21:08 lucasb that subroutines are classes...
21:08 tadzik no, it's the truth :)
21:08 timotimo they are ... classes?
21:08 timotimo not objects?
21:08 tadzik well, tehy're objects
21:09 tadzik of class Routine
21:09 lucasb oh, ok. objects! sorry for the confusion :)
21:09 flussence nine: whoa whoa, which part are you saying is broken? This is the exact same routine every other thing with a ./configure&&make&&make install dance or similar gets installed with on gentoo, moar and nqp included.
21:09 tadzik m: sub foo { }; &foo.^methods
21:09 Skarsnik well create the multi seem not that bad, the tricky part is too inject it to a module x)
21:09 camelia rakudo-moar cb2db7: ( no output )
21:09 tadzik m: sub foo { }; &foo.^methods.perl.say
21:09 camelia rakudo-moar cb2db7: OUTPUT«(ForeignCode.new, ForeignCode.new, ForeignCode.new, method soft (Routine $: *%_ --> Nil) { #`(Method|62988160) ... }, ForeignCode.new, ForeignCode.new, method yada (Routine $: *%_) { #`(Method|62988616) ... }, method perl (Mu $: | is raw) { #`(Method|62987…»
21:09 lizmat jeturcotte: does that code take any input ?
21:10 jeturcotte aye; i'm trying to set up a socket listener that takes input and deposits them in a buffer/queue without blocking a logic loop that consumes that buffer/queue
21:10 lizmat if so, you could set up a Supplier taking that input, and then create a Supply from that and then throttle that
21:11 timotimo since throttle is so well known for being stable and reliable :P
21:11 lizmat jeturcotte: you need to look at Supply.throttle, I think it will do exactly what you need and then some
21:11 jeturcotte sounds good; I shall read then.
21:11 lizmat timotimo: well, I think the issue is really a race condition in Promise.then
21:12 lizmat nothing to do with supplies per se
21:12 jeturcotte im not nearly sophisticated enough yet to know
21:12 jeturcotte hence, play
21:13 timotimo OK
21:13 nine flussence: please note that my goal is understanding, rather than arguing.
21:13 flussence alright, alright
21:14 flussence I think another source of problems might be install-core-dist is being run too late in the process
21:14 nine flussence: one difference between rakudo and those other packages is that I don't have a clue how systems other than openSUSE build packages and that I actually know very little of rakudo's own build process.
21:15 nine Maybe even the whole idea of having install-core-dist.pl as Perl 6 script is bad. It was just the first thing that worked and got me a step further.
21:16 timotimo if what you're saying is "i was basically just winging it", the result we got for our release was still pretty darn good :)
21:16 flussence for gentoo, the tldr is: «su portage -c 'perl Configure.pl; make; make DESTDIR=$foo install' && rsync $foo /» (or thereabouts)
21:17 nine That's the joke! For me most of the work was discovery rather than design. I literally discovered what jnthn's design was about while implementing it and only in some places extended on his ideas :)
21:17 lucasb m: 42 but sub {}
21:17 camelia rakudo-moar cb2db7: ( no output )
21:17 * TimToady --> NorCal &
21:18 Skarsnik m: my &foo = sub(Int $a) {say $a}; say &foo.ACCEPTS(42);
21:18 camelia rakudo-moar cb2db7: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/CCPmFyciz0␤Unable to parse expression in argument list; couldn't find final ')' ␤at /tmp/CCPmFyciz0:1␤------> 3my &foo = sub(Int7⏏5 $a) {say $a}; say &foo.ACCEPTS(42);␤    expecting any of:␤    …»
21:19 timotimo my &foo = sub (Int $a) {say $a}; say &foo.ACCEPTS(42)
21:19 timotimo m: my &foo = sub (Int $a) {say $a}; say &foo.ACCEPTS(42)
21:19 camelia rakudo-moar cb2db7: OUTPUT«42␤True␤»
21:19 Skarsnik Erf it get called x)
21:19 rurban joined #perl6
21:19 nine The whole mkdir fiasco was just me not having the time to think about at which point we actually want to create those directories. It was never meant to stay that way.
21:19 timotimo well, at least it tries to make a call there
21:20 timotimo huh. what does this person mean? Say what you want about the tenets of Perl 6, at least it's an ethos doc.perl6.org/language.html
21:21 Skarsnik No idea x)
21:21 timotimo like "wow the language is so big that they have like 10 chapters of language documentation"?
21:23 nine flussence: what do you think about an override for $prefix in CompUnit::RepositoryRegistry::setup-repositories? That way we can use a different, non-final $prefix during build and install. And it would keep the repo paths synchronous between installation and loading.
21:28 dalek rakudo/nom: f909a06 | lizmat++ | src/core/Date (3 files):
21:28 dalek rakudo/nom: Give !ymd-from-daycount a new API
21:28 dalek rakudo/nom:
21:28 dalek rakudo/nom: Instead of returning 3 values, it now sets the 3 values directly on
21:28 dalek rakudo/nom: the 3 variables specified.  This makes things like Date.later 25%
21:28 dalek rakudo/nom: faster.
21:28 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f909a06a82
21:28 timotimo whoa, 25%
21:28 billN1VUX joined #perl6
21:29 stmuk https://www.fysh.org/~zefram/prog_lang/emperors_new_programming_language_live_demo.txt
21:29 stmuk "unimpressed" by ^^^
21:30 riatre joined #perl6
21:31 BloodShura joined #perl6
21:31 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
21:31 lucasb m: my Int $x = module Foo {}; say $x
21:31 camelia rakudo-moar f909a0: OUTPUT«(Foo)␤»
21:32 lucasb m: my Int $x = role Foo {}; say $x
21:32 camelia rakudo-moar f909a0: OUTPUT«(Foo)␤»
21:32 araujo joined #perl6
21:32 lucasb it's not just CORE
21:33 lucasb ^^ about what zefram showed in its talk
21:33 timotimo stmuk: to be honest, the $a = CORE dropped my jaw a little
21:34 stmuk timotimo: yes that was the worst
21:34 rey joined #perl6
21:34 nine So we have a bug. What's new?
21:34 timotimo i disagree with his idea of how "identity map" should work; if he wants to do an identity thingie without iterating, he'd use something other than iterating with map
21:35 timotimo nine: his point isn't "there's crazy bugs", it's "there's no way in hell these people will be able to write tests for all corner cases"
21:35 stmuk "here are ~4 bugs in a new lang" didn't seem to support his basic arg
21:36 timotimo actually, it's more "here's 4 examples of where i just combined two basic features and got an explosion out of it"
21:36 timotimo the small size of his examples is a big point here
21:36 timotimo he doesn't need to bend over backwards to get something b0rked
21:36 nine timotimo: which is true, so what? It's easy to point out that a solution to a complex problem is not perfect. So Perl 6 implementations may be inconsistent in such totally contrieved details. I can live with that a whole lot better than "Perl is what perl does"
21:37 stmuk he is a scheme reductionist
21:37 stmuk he previousily wrote his own "zlisp" in parrot maybe he will do the same in nqp
21:37 nine stmuk: then how the hell did he end up in Perl? Perl has never been a small language :)
21:38 stmuk nine: yes that occured to me
21:38 timotimo stmuk: your App::ecoreadme seems to have p6-app-p6tags as a heading below the actual readme text
21:39 stmuk timotimo: almost as if I used one as a template for the other :)
21:39 stmuk I'll fix
21:39 flussence nine: a proper override sounds exactly what's needed
21:39 lucasb m: my @a = (3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,5); say @a foo
21:39 camelia rakudo-moar f909a0: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/TPm0H2nJdt␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/TPm0H2nJdt:1␤------> 3,4);my int @b[2,2] = (1,2),(3,5); say @a7⏏5 foo␤    expecting any of:␤        infix␤        infix stopper␤        postfix␤      …»
21:39 lucasb ^^ only my irssi does this crazy thing? or yours too?
21:39 flussence more importantly, that'll add a way to have distro-installed modules with working precomp :)
21:40 RabidGravy well it's in unreadable green on red here
21:40 nine timotimo: what we should learn from his ramblings is, that while our test suite is an epic achievement, we really should not delude ourselves with regard to it's completeness.
21:40 lucasb RabidGravy: is it blinking? :)
21:40 RabidGravy no blinking
21:40 flussence huh, not just me then
21:40 Zero_Dogg joined #perl6
21:41 timotimo fair enough
21:41 lucasb I think this is some escape code thing... I'm trying to golf, but I can't
21:41 flussence (I swapped urxvt for st this week, was wondering if that was rendering camelia's output wrong...)
21:41 nine flussence: RAKUDOPREFIX or PERL6PREFIX then? Or sprinkle some underscores?
21:42 lucasb flussence: is it blinking in yours?
21:42 RabidGravy flussence, no this is in xchat
21:42 nine Well, probably RAKUDO_PREFIX. We shouldn't claim PERL6 names for our implementation details.
21:42 flussence lucasb: don't think this term supports that
21:42 lucasb ah, ok. I'm on xterm
21:42 flussence nine: +1 to that
21:42 timotimo flussence, no this is in patrick
21:42 flussence /o\
21:42 stmuk it is probably possible to "fuzz" bugs by combining features automatically
21:42 timotimo yeah
21:43 flussence it's an acidic xmas palette in urxvt too, so I guess camelia's acting up here
21:43 timotimo i'd love to have some automated fuzzing done, but it's not terribly easy :)
21:43 timotimo i think a big important part about automated fuzzing is to have feedback about at what point branches are taken and what could make other branches be taken
21:43 nine flussence: so can you make it work with this?
21:43 nine -            my $prefix := nqp::p6box_s(
21:43 nine +            my $prefix := %ENV<RAKUDO_PREFIX> // nqp::p6box_s(
21:44 nine in src/core/CompUnit/RepositoryRegistry.pm
21:44 timotimo so we might want to put in an istrumentation based thing into moarvm that can give a fuzzer the required feedback
21:44 timotimo also, that'll be excruciatingly slow
21:44 lizmat timotimo: feels like a special version of the debugger to me
21:44 flussence sure, gimme a few mins to try that out
21:44 timotimo if we just fuzz moarvm based on giving it .moarvm files until it blows up, that'll be *ridiculously* problematic
21:45 colomon anyone know about installing to “bin” via panda?
21:45 timotimo lizmat: i'm not sure about that; please elaborate?
21:45 lucasb nobody ever got interested in running AFL with moar? sure it would find lots of bugs on its own
21:45 RabidGravy colomon, it just works
21:45 timotimo lizmat: the thing is we'd probably want the fuzzer to reach deep into the written-in-nqp parts of rakudo
21:45 stmuk colomon: Star does it I think
21:45 colomon RabidGravy: it just doesn’t work as of yesterday
21:45 lizmat timotimo: ah, ok... scratch that then
21:45 RabidGravy stick something in bin and it gets installed
21:46 stmuk colomon: I mean panda itself is in bin .. do you mean things installed by panda?
21:46 timotimo lizmat: it'd be lovely to build it very similarly to the debugger, but that has its limits :(
21:46 colomon colomon: things installed by panda
21:46 colomon errr, stmuk, I mean, obivously.
21:46 stmuk :)
21:46 Woodi nine: I installed R2015.12 some hours ago but installation have  repo.lock  file in it - it should be there whole time or just during operations on repo ?
21:47 RabidGravy colomon, works here
21:47 RabidGravy [jonathan@coriolanus JSON-Infer]$ which p6who
21:47 RabidGravy ~/.rakudobrew/bin/p6who
21:47 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
21:47 mj41 joined #perl6
21:47 stmuk rakudobrew uses shims
21:48 colomon RabidGravy: huh, just worked for me, too.  wonder what went wrong when I tried it a day or two ago
21:48 woolfy left #perl6
21:48 mj41 commits analytics updated ... I like this one https://github.com/mj41/Perl6-Analytics-results/blob/master/slides/mj41-brnopm-prev2.md#id-rr-authors the most.
21:48 stmuk RabidGravy: I don't think that's p6
21:49 autarch could someone give me a clue what this means - P6M Merging GLOBAL symbols failed: duplicate definition of symbol Test
21:49 flussence those shim scripts come from CompUnit stuff
21:49 RabidGravy stmuk, eh?
21:49 stmuk RabidGravy: look at that script
21:50 * colomon realizes his test a second ago was on the wrong computer
21:50 stmuk I think there are rakudobrew shims and compunit ones (?)
21:50 RabidGravy stmuk, yes it's a shim script around the p6who that is installed with Sys::Utmp
21:51 timotimo hmm. one kind of shim to make switching between rakudo versions possible, one to make switching between installed distributions possible
21:52 flussence nine: `RAKUDO_PREFIX=install/usr/share/perl6 make DESTDIR=install install` worked with that :D
21:52 ugexe and a third shim to switch between -j -m  installed by rakudo itself
21:52 flussence let's see if it works on make test too
21:53 timotimo oh, ah
21:53 stmuk the 'brew shims are perl5 and used to be shell scripts
21:53 RabidGravy oh I see what you mean now
21:53 flussence results there looking good too
21:53 flussence t/04-nativecall tests take ages...
21:54 stmuk "you are lost in a twisty maze of shims" :)
21:54 autarch you have to do the shimmy to get out
21:54 timotimo all named some long hexadecimal hash
21:54 RabidGravy y'know I didn't even notice it was Perl 5
21:55 Skarsnik Good night #perl6
21:55 autarch speaking of those long hex hashes - any reason they can't be something like Module-Name-HASHGOESHERE ? that'd be a bit friendlier
21:55 Skarsnik I think rakudo should resolve the file name when displaying error ~~
21:56 timotimo i think it should at the very least display both file names
21:56 timotimo one to let you know where it's reading stuff from, one to let you know what it's trying for
21:56 flussence All tests successful.
21:56 flussence Files=43, Tests=553, 213 wallclock secs ( 0.19 usr  0.01 sys + 209.77 cusr  2.95 csys = 212.92 CPU)
21:56 flussence Result: PASS
21:56 leont joined #perl6
21:56 AlexDani` joined #perl6
21:57 timotimo since our installation folders don't have to be content-addressed, it'd actually be enough to disambiguate things with the same name by applying a short hash (as long as it needs to be to not collide with something already put in there)
21:57 AlexDaniel shorter hashes? Yes!
21:59 lucasb m: $().Slip
21:59 camelia rakudo-moar f909a0: OUTPUT«Use of Nil in string context  in block <unit> at /tmp/hIxTROan0X line 1␤»
22:00 ugexe m: my $json = q|"a" : 1,| x 100; say from-json(q|{| ~ $json  ~ q|}|); # in the majority of cases i dont think its not helpful to dump the entire json
22:00 camelia rakudo-moar f909a0: OUTPUT«Invalid JSON: {"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"a" : 1,"…»
22:00 ugexe s/not//
22:03 TEttinger joined #perl6
22:03 lucasb what do you mean? that from-json should cut it's output in the middle?
22:03 ugexe that its pretty much pointless to dump any of it
22:03 lucasb *its output
22:04 timotimo just discussed a bit on twitter about "oh no perl 6 switched for and loop around, it's bass-ackwards and a backwards compatibility epic-fail"
22:04 ugexe you A. almost certainly have the string you used and B. you can just handle the exception and get it from there. there is no reason to print it out
22:04 llfourn joined #perl6
22:04 timotimo ugexe: also please note that the built-in from-json isn't supposed to be used by users anyway and i think it should disappear into Rakudo::Internals
22:04 lucasb ah, I didn't see it already was an exception. nevermind what I said :)
22:04 flussence timotimo: wonder if they have the same complaint about Swift doing the same...
22:05 lizmat joined #perl6
22:05 lnrdo joined #perl6
22:05 BloodShura lucasb: BR?
22:05 * colomon is utterly baffled about what is going on with his panda
22:06 ugexe timotimo: the internal use is reading manifests which is certainly pointless to dump like that since they are larger than a couple lines
22:06 Ulti p6 doing well on front page of HN https://news.ycombinator.com/news
22:06 lucasb BloodShura: yes, I am
22:06 sd_ joined #perl6
22:06 timotimo ugexe: good point, too
22:06 sd_ hi
22:06 timotimo heyo sd_
22:07 BloodShura @lucasb Nice! It's really cool to see I'm not the only brazilian on this underground
22:07 timotimo one brazillion perl 6 programmers? that's a lot!!
22:07 timotimo (how much is a brazillion, exactly?)
22:07 BloodShura Two now hahah
22:08 lucasb BloodShura: not just two... there's more brazilians here :)
22:11 hankache joined #perl6
22:11 hankache good evening everybody
22:11 timotimo hello hankache
22:11 timotimo did i actually reach you because of the pdf thing?
22:11 hankache hi timotimo
22:11 timotimo i think it'd be fine if you put a PR up for github.com/rakudo/star that adds the .pdf into docs/
22:11 Ulti "==> Successfully installed Task::Star"  \o/
22:12 timotimo perhaps there needs to be an entry into the MANIFEST or Makefile or some kind of list of things
22:12 BloodShura_ joined #perl6
22:12 hankache was away for a bit i didn't check the logs yet
22:12 RabidGravy jeturcotte, just pushed IO::Socket::Async doc with an example that works with telnet
22:12 RabidGravy is dalek broken?
22:13 flussence huh, think it is
22:13 X-Scale joined #perl6
22:13 RabidGravy but a much nicer example anyway
22:14 timotimo dalek: sup wit'chu?
22:14 hankache dalek: wake up
22:14 yqt joined #perl6
22:14 nebuchadnezzar joined #perl6
22:15 hankache timotimo will github let me upload a file on the web? or i have to do it locally?
22:15 timotimo i think you'd have to do it locally, actually
22:15 timotimo do you already have hub.github.com installed?
22:15 timotimo it's quite handy
22:16 timotimo is the perl6 emacs mode good?
22:16 hankache no i don't have and it
22:16 virtualsue joined #perl6
22:16 hankache let me look at it
22:17 timotimo i still have the previous version installed that was written in ruby ...
22:17 nine Woodi: the repo.lock file stays there. It's the flock operation that counts
22:17 hankache i never used git from the the command line, i'll have to actually learn how to do it
22:17 jeturcotte oooh, nice RabidGroovy
22:17 jeturcotte (was nearly asleep therE)
22:17 autarch does anyone know how Pod::Raw is supposed to work? the parser doesn't produce raw blocks under any circumstances, AFAICT
22:18 timotimo hankache: try.github.com gives you a nice introduction
22:18 hankache timotimo on it.
22:20 jeturcotte wehew, pod errors!
22:20 lucasb m: my @a = $(); say @a.perl  # itemized empty list turns into a string?
22:20 camelia rakudo-moar f909a0: OUTPUT«Use of Nil in string context  in block <unit> at /tmp/vB9WHtpZSC line 1␤[""]␤»
22:20 nine autarch: the "Merging GLOBAL symbols failed" usually means that something precomp related broke :/
22:20 timotimo lucasb: actually, $() is special syntax for $/.ast // ~$/ or something
22:20 timotimo m: my @a = $( ); say @a.perl
22:20 camelia rakudo-moar f909a0: OUTPUT«[(),]␤»
22:21 timotimo m: "foobar" ~~ /f../; my @a = $(); say @a.perl
22:21 camelia rakudo-moar f909a0: OUTPUT«["foo"]␤»
22:21 timotimo i don't quite know why that exists myself, but it's there
22:21 lucasb ah, thanks, timotimo++; sorry for the mistake
22:21 * flussence is currently figuring out a good place to stick RAKUDO_PREFIX... it works fine as a command line var but it'd be better living in the makefile somewhere
22:21 timotimo it's not your mistake :)
22:22 nine flussence: great! I take it that we are a lot closer now to distro packages?
22:22 RabidGravy jeturcotte, while the doc server is thinking about it the example is now https://gist.github.com/jonathanstowe/41a208c0667f2cc9fd57
22:23 flussence if this works my workload's going to explode... next job will be a thing to convert the ecosystem list to distro build scripts :)
22:23 jeturcotte =) ... was lookin' at raw
22:24 jeturcotte just now that is, not back at the err page
22:25 nine autarch: to be precise: a module seems to export a "Test" when there's already there. That usually is caused by the module loader failing to detect that the Test module is already loaded. Maybe once precompiled and once from source.
22:25 RabidGravy I don't know why it doesn't work with an ordinary tap
22:25 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
22:25 nine autarch: do you by chance happen to have a "use lib" in a module? Or a "use lib" after a different "use" statement?
22:26 autarch nine: yes, the latter was what seemed to be the issue
22:27 jeturcotte confirmed, btw
22:28 nine @all: good rules of thumb: put your "use lib" _before_ loading any modules. Never do a "use lib" in a module.
22:31 stmuk nine: apart from Tests?
22:32 nine stmuk: tests?
22:33 autarch is there a method that Array & Seq share that I can use to iterate over their values?
22:33 stmuk I was thinking of foo.t having 'use lib 'lib'' but that's not a module and not compiled anyway I guess
22:34 autarch like if I have a $thing and I know it's an Iterable and want to do something to one value at a time I call $thing.???
22:34 RabidGravy yeah y'know those annoying .t files put with their modukes
22:34 nine autarch: .map? You can also do for @array just as easily as for $seq
22:34 autarch if I write "for $thing" I seem to get $thing, not it's values
22:35 RabidGravy for $thing.list then :)
22:35 timotimo yeah, $ is how you say "iterate once, please"
22:35 timotimo or for @$thing
22:35 timotimo that's synonymous
22:35 nine stmuk: scripts (and .t files are scripts) may use lib. It should just come before any module loading. Because if you load a module and then use lib, we have to turn off precompilation right there.
22:36 dalek rakudo/nom: 2cf1234 | lizmat++ | src/core/Date (3 files):
22:36 dalek rakudo/nom: Give Date/DateTime their own !VALID-UNIT check
22:36 dalek rakudo/nom:
22:36 dalek rakudo/nom: And change the API slightly. This makes e.g. Date.later 10% faster
22:36 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2cf1234672
22:36 RabidGravy I've been taking it out of the tests that don't need it
22:36 nine RabidGravy: you know, I'm actually the one who implemented the for $seq and for $seq.list distinction, yet I fall into that trap every single time :)
22:36 timotimo nine: didn't that part not even change during GLR?
22:37 RabidGravy :)
22:37 nine timotimo: we lost the distinction when we made for loops just .map calls underneath and restoring the distinction was one of the last pieces of the GLR.
22:38 timotimo ah!
22:38 timotimo good good
22:38 nine I guess, it's just that I never write for $seq... myself. It's usually something like for $foo.map(...) or for $foo.grep(...) where you don't even notice the Seq involved.
22:39 jeturcotte many thanks btw, for the example; I will collapse into a heap now
22:40 timotimo good heapin', jeturcotte :)
22:40 jeturcotte *bow*
22:40 RabidGravy I've been in a heap all day
22:40 chansen_ lizmat: is Perl6 to slow for the standard lib? Looks strange that efforts is made to move to nqp for the standard library
22:40 RabidGravy occassionally interrupted by the need for more beer
22:41 timotimo chansen_: please be more specific?
22:41 timotimo chansen_: all things have to terminate in an NQP op at some point, except the most basic pieces of syntax
22:41 chansen_ https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2cf123467244715c402315f48243fc12386d738a
22:41 * stmuk went for a bracing country walk all healthy but that led to a pub
22:41 timotimo so especially in CORE we'd be using a lot of nqp:: ops
22:43 lizmat chansen_: at one point in the future, the optimizer would have known what to do with the code before my last commit
22:43 flussence went for a walk and thought of something: adding RAKUDO_PREFIX will fix this thing, but if it's used for compiling modules then it'll hide any existing precompiled stuff from rakudo. will probably need an extra thing like PERL6LIB, but prepending an ::Installation instead of a ::Filesystem. Does that make sense?
22:43 lizmat but we're not there yet: so I'd rather have a faster Perl 6 now
22:44 autarch I think I may have the doc site working with my rewrite of Pod::To::HTML - which is step 1 towards making the site have nicer HTML, generating pages in parallel threads, and other improvements
22:44 autarch now I just have to wait approximately forever while I generate a copy of the site with the new & old code to compare ;)
22:44 cygx joined #perl6
22:44 chansen_ lizmat: ok
22:44 cygx o/
22:44 timotimo yo cygx
22:45 lizmat chansen_: also, I don't think it makes the code that much less readable
22:45 lizmat finally, this is a step towards further algorithmic improvements
22:47 cygx chansen_: at least it's not implemented in C ;)
22:48 colomon argh, ABC appears to be completely broken in current rakudo.  :(
22:48 timotimo ugh, that's bad :(
22:48 timotimo how long did you not test it?
22:48 chansen_ cygx: LOL ;)
22:48 colomon wait, except I think it passed all tests?
22:49 * colomon continues to be confused
22:49 zengargoyle joined #perl6
22:49 colomon timotimo: it worked for sure on Dec 7th.
22:49 El_Che lizmat: the perlfoundation perl6 doc looks out of date (e.g. http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_tablets), while still pretty high on google rank. Should that be there?
22:50 timotimo oh, that's not so long ago
22:50 timotimo so definitely not "broken because of the GLR" :)
22:50 nine flussence: note that you can prepend an ::Installation by using PERL6LIB='inst#path/to/repo'
22:50 flussence oh, just inst#?
22:50 El_Che e.g. many almost empty placeholders like this: http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_oop_tablet
22:50 flussence that makes things a hell of a lot simpler...
22:50 chansen_ lizmat: I wouldn't say it's less readable, but it would be more beautiful if it stayed Perl6 ;)
22:51 lizmat chansen_: totally agree
22:51 colomon timotimo: oh, no, I definitely had it working post GLR
22:51 flussence ...now I'm wondering if I could've just done that in the first place
22:51 nine Ok, I'm off to bed now. Good time till I wake up again #perl6!
22:51 timotimo gnite nine!
22:51 flussence o/
22:51 timotimo El_Che: the tablets don't live in there any more
22:52 El_Che timotimo: that's exactly my point
22:52 timotimo http://tablets.perl6.org/tablet-8-objects.html - however, this isn't fiilled out more than that ...
22:52 El_Che timotimo: it looks like a ghost town, so it should be replaced by a link
22:52 timotimo oh!
22:52 timotimo right, i think the wiki on the perl foundation website should be shut down
22:52 timotimo or at least have all pages replaced to links that point to something more proper
22:52 timotimo maybe give it a robots.txt directive that kicks it out of google's search results?
22:53 chansen_ cygx: BTW, <https://metacpan.org/source/CHANSEN/Time-Moment-0.37/src> ;oP
22:54 El_Che it would be sad when people curious about perl6 have a look there and leave while doc.perl6.org is getting there
22:54 timotimo chansen_: maybe we'll reach better performance, because our VM can do inlining and run-time optimization :P
22:54 timotimo (won't be reached this year, though)
22:55 kjs_ joined #perl6
22:56 cygx btw, compared to October, there's apparently been some performance gains: https://gist.github.com/cygx/db998502d493dfae53c9
22:56 theorbtwo joined #perl6
22:57 timotimo damn it, we can't reach perl5 even with nqp code?
22:57 * timotimo flips table
22:57 theorbtwo I thought you were supposed to throw a mug at a wall?
22:58 chansen_ I noticed that Temporal.pm what spilit in three package, where one is Dateish.pm. Does it mean that Dateish.pm role is public?
22:58 MilkmanDan Throwing a mug at a wall with a table as the accelerator is the optimal procedure.
22:58 diakopter timotimo: giggle
22:58 diakopter is the table okay
22:58 dlynes joined #perl6
22:59 stmuk but what colour mug should be thrown?
22:59 * chansen_ s/spilit/split/ s/package/packages/
22:59 dlynes Is perl6 actually released now, or is it only a/the compiler that's been released for perl6?
22:59 * timotimo throws a shed at the mug
22:59 timotimo dlynes: actually, the main deliverable was the test suite, which is how the language is specified
23:00 dlynes timotimo: ok, so that's what the recent announcement was, then?
23:00 timotimo but other deliverables were a compiler that implements (most of) what the test suite demands
23:00 timotimo and we've released that, too
23:00 lizmat chansen_: Dateish has doc on doc.perl6.org, so I guess it is public, yes  :-)
23:00 timotimo next up is an actual distribution that contains a bunch of modules and some docs for you
23:00 timotimo and then come .msi files for windows users
23:00 dlynes timotimo: ok, so perl6 is usable now, then?
23:00 timotimo it's been usable before :)
23:00 dlynes timotimo: it just doesn't have supporting modules like cpan?
23:01 dlynes timotimo: Ok...I just remember parrot
23:01 RabidGravy 483 modules last time I looked
23:01 dlynes timotimo: and from what I recall, it wasn't usable
23:01 timotimo it has a bunch of modules, but not nearly as many as cpan. what it does have is Inline::Perl5 and Inline::Python which lets you usually seamlessly use perl5 and python modules in your perl6 programs
23:01 dalek rakudo/nom: 3cd19cf | lizmat++ | src/core/Date (2 files):
23:01 dalek rakudo/nom: Don't coerce to Num before coercing to Int
23:01 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3cd19cf838
23:01 timotimo "not usable" in what way? we've advanced by a whole lot since parrot was last officially recommended
23:02 _nadim Hi, I have multi sub int_filter(Int $s, DDT_HEADER, ($depth, $glyphs, @renderings), ($k, $v, $f, $final)); which works just fine, now i would liketo change what $k contains, $k is a Str, if i change $k to be rw, then the signature doesn't match any longer. Can someone tell me about scalar references?
23:02 flussence I remember parrot too... I think dlynes means *every* way
23:02 timotimo hahaha
23:02 timotimo parrot wasn't that bad!
23:02 * dlynes snickers at flussence.
23:02 flussence but yeah, it doesn't take 2 hours to build any more :)
23:02 vendethiel joined #perl6
23:02 timotimo what we have been doing with moarvm and rakudo since then is quite a bit nicer, so far
23:02 flussence nor 2 hours to run anything...
23:03 dlynes timotimo: Is it available as packages for any major distro yet?
23:03 flussence fedora has one apparently
23:03 timotimo with moarvm, we usually had build times of moar + nqp + rakudo that were faster than it took parrot to build only rakudo
23:03 _nadim dlynes: it takes 10 mn to dowmload and build
23:03 chansen_ lizmat: Ah, didn't think it was "public" when it where defined as a "my role Dateish" and was in a single package
23:03 timotimo dlynes: people are working on it, but it may be a tedious bureocratic process to get it into the hands of users in some cases
23:03 dlynes timotimo: oh wow...rakudo's been around for a while then...thought it was something new
23:03 timotimo chansen_: anything in CORE is an outer scope to all user programs
23:04 timotimo dlynes: rakudo was always the perl6 compiler that ran on parrot, it's just that at the beginning both were considered a single project
23:04 chansen_ timotimo: ahh
23:04 AndyDee joined #perl6
23:04 dlynes timotimo: ah...is perl6's interpreter still called parrot?
23:04 _nadim Can someone point me at a document that talks about scalar references?
23:04 timotimo parrot was never an interpreter
23:05 dlynes oh...what was it, then?
23:05 timotimo it's a virtual machine with its own assembly language and byte code/machine code format
23:05 timotimo like JVM, CLR, or MoarVM
23:05 dlynes timotimo: oh...and that's been replaced with MoarVM now?
23:05 theorbtwo That's OK.  Interpreters haven't actually existed for a very long time, anyway.
23:05 timotimo that's correct. maybe parrot-rakudo-support will be worked on again in the future, but don't hold your breath
23:06 timotimo theorbtwo: that's right; the clean concept of an "interpreter" really doesn't exist outside of academic settings or toy projects i expect.
23:06 dlynes timotimo: and moarvm is to perl6 what jvm is to Java?
23:06 cygx well, interp.c contains MoarVM's *bytecode interpreter*, so... :p
23:06 Ulti https://news.ycombinator.com/news top of the news woop woop
23:06 timotimo dlynes: yeah, you can understand it like that
23:06 lizmat _nadim: Perl6 doesn't have scalar references
23:06 llfourn joined #perl6
23:07 dlynes Ulti: It's also on Slashdot, which is where I heard about it from:  http://developers.slashdot.org/story/15/12/26/0354235/perl-6-released
23:07 timotimo Ulti: though i wonder why it says "15 years of work", when there was quite a lull after the very first bits of "work"?
23:07 _nadim lizmat: if I pass a Str variable to a sub and want to change it in the sub?
23:07 lizmat m: sub a(\x) { x = "foo" ); a my $foo; say $foo
23:07 camelia rakudo-moar 2cf123: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/fDIX1Ey6XZ␤Missing block␤at /tmp/fDIX1Ey6XZ:1␤------> 3sub a(\x) { x = "foo" 7⏏5); a my $foo; say $foo␤    expecting any of:␤        statement end␤        statement modifier␤        statemen…»
23:07 dlynes timotimo: yeah...I just remember hearing about it many moons ago in Perl magazine when the BD wrote an article on it
23:07 timotimo why would the topmost commenter say perl 5 had a "period of neglect"? is that true at all?
23:08 lizmat m: sub a(\x) { x = "foo" }; a my $foo; say $foo
23:08 camelia rakudo-moar 2cf123: OUTPUT«foo␤»
23:08 lizmat _nadim: ^^
23:08 flussence I'm a bit stumped; `RAKUDO_PREFIX=$(mktemp -d) make test` works, but if I put a RAKUDO_PREFIX var in the makefile it doesn't get passed as an env var to subprocesses. Is there a correct way to do that in make or have I got to improvise?
23:08 Ulti lizmat: isnt binding a scalar a bit like a reference though...?
23:08 flussence (note: mktemp -d only an example)
23:08 Ulti they point to the same bit of memory
23:08 lizmat _nadim: no, it's *binding*
23:08 Ulti ok
23:08 cygx flussence: for gnu make, it's `export RAKUDO_PREFIX=...`
23:08 El_Che timotimo: before 5.10
23:08 cygx or there's some flag to export everything by default
23:08 lizmat you could argue that just about everything in Perl 6 is a reference
23:09 flussence I'm just concerned about breaking something for windows users...
23:09 El_Che lizmat: except when it's not :)
23:09 _nadim lizmat: was that "now" it is binding?
23:09 lizmat well, natives aren't objects
23:09 cygx I think nmake auto-exports, but I'd have to double-check...
23:10 lizmat m: my \a = my $b; $b = "foo"; say a
23:10 camelia rakudo-moar 2cf123: OUTPUT«foo␤»
23:10 * flussence is reading make.info now (urgh)
23:10 [Coke] japhb: thank you, I did mean to claim january.
23:11 Ulti timotimo: not sure on the 15 year meme, I'm not the OP
23:11 lizmat [Coke]: already fixed that
23:11 ZoffixWin m: my (\current_users-churn, time) = 42, 2; say current_users-churn*time
23:11 camelia rakudo-moar 3cd19c: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/ugesNq1MDO␤Invalid typename 'time' in parameter declaration.␤at /tmp/ugesNq1MDO:1␤------> 3my (\current_users-churn, time7⏏5) = 42, 2; say current_users-churn*time␤»
23:11 ZoffixWin m: my (\current_users-churn, \time) = 42, 2; say current_users-churn*time
23:11 camelia rakudo-moar 3cd19c: OUTPUT«84␤»
23:11 dlynes So, as I understand it, fedora is the only major distro with a perl6 package?
23:11 ZoffixWin m: my (\current_users, \churn, \time) = 42, 2, 3; say current_users-churn*time
23:11 camelia rakudo-moar 3cd19c: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/60z8MBX3vt␤Undeclared routine:␤    current_users-churn used at line 1␤␤»
23:11 lizmat _nadim: no, that was no in reference to reference
23:11 lizmat :-)
23:12 dlynes If so, how do I submit additional packages to the perl6 team, until the distributions add it?
23:12 timotimo El_Che: thanks; any more details about that?
23:12 dlynes My main distribution is debian
23:12 dlynes And Mac OSX
23:12 RabidGravy http://doc.perl6.org/language/modules
23:13 timotimo we actaully have a macbrew thingie for rakudo, don't we?
23:13 timotimo or homeports?
23:13 Ulti dlynes: Ubuntu has a P6 package taken from Debian its called rakudo-star if memory serves
23:13 dalek rakudo/nom: 1bdb784 | lizmat++ | src/core/Date.pm:
23:13 dalek rakudo/nom: Handle Date.later a bit smarter
23:13 dalek rakudo/nom:
23:13 dalek rakudo/nom: Makes it 10% faster again
23:13 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1bdb784b49
23:13 theorbtwo Somewhat random question reading 5to6-nutshell: cmp has become leg.  What does "leg" stand for?
23:13 lizmat and that concludes my ramblings for today
23:13 lizmat good night, #perl6!
23:13 RabidGravy toodlepip
23:13 cygx theorbtwo: less-equal-greater
23:13 Ulti theorbtwo: less equal greater than
23:13 Ulti dog
23:14 Ulti doh even
23:14 theorbtwo Aha.
23:14 hankache timotimo done. And i learned to use git on the command line :)
23:14 flussence oh, it *is* "export". Wish it just said that instead of burying it in the middle of a paragraph...
23:14 cygx flussence: but that *will* break nmake
23:14 flussence yeah :(
23:15 dlynes eh?  apt-cache search perl6 is showing rakudo as being a perl6 implementation on top of the parrot virtual machine
23:15 khw joined #perl6
23:15 Ulti yeah its probably ancient
23:15 timotimo hankache: way cool :)
23:15 theorbtwo dlynes: That's because there's a very old rakudo there.
23:15 RabidGravy that's either very old or plain wrong
23:15 dlynes theorbtwo: ah
23:15 Ulti dlynes: though I thought the latest Debian had a moar version
23:15 hankache timotimo the master branch yeah?
23:15 no_gravity joined #perl6
23:15 Ulti Debian stable forget it
23:15 no_gravity Hello! I'm reading the Perl6 docs...
23:16 dlynes Ulti: Debian 7.9?  Or Debian 8 beta?
23:16 no_gravity Is that "my" what in javascript "var" is?
23:16 Ulti Debian dripping in blood edition
23:16 dlynes Ulti: ah....heheheh
23:16 Ulti whatever that might be nowadays
23:16 flussence no_gravity: pretty much, except you can use "my" in more places
23:16 RabidGravy but fedora has rakudo 2015.11 which is newish
23:16 hankache no_gravity kind of
23:17 no_gravity can you just leave it out completely?
23:17 hankache no_gravity no
23:17 flussence m: 6; $a
23:17 Ulti RabidGravy yeah thats really new for a distro version
23:17 camelia rakudo-moar 3cd19c: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/XWndJa7TlV␤Variable '$a' is not declared␤at /tmp/XWndJa7TlV:1␤------> 6; 7⏏5$a␤»
23:17 no_gravity and just go with this: $name='no_gravity';
23:17 flussence m: no strict; $a
23:17 camelia rakudo-moar 3cd19c: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for /tmp/W7WzYVu0wK:␤Useless use of $a in sink context (line 1)␤»
23:17 hankache you have to use it to "declare" the first time a variable
23:17 dlynes Ulti: erm...guess that would be debian 10.  Debian 8's released.  Debian 9 would be the beta, and Debian 10 would be your extreme dev edition
23:17 timotimo hankache: pardon me?
23:18 no_gravity ok. then i guess perl6 is not for me.
23:18 RabidGravy er right
23:18 hankache timotimo I was asking if the master branch was the one i should submit a PR to
23:18 Ulti dlynes for learning the language rakudobrew does a great job getting you a copy into your home
23:18 timotimo ah
23:18 flussence well if typing "no strict;" is too much work, I guess not...
23:18 timotimo yes, it is
23:18 timotimo are there others? :)
23:19 timotimo flussence: welllllll, using "no strict" gives a massive performance malus at the moment
23:19 Ulti dlynes: there is also a docker image
23:19 _nadim lizmat: starting to get a hold of it. pity it does not interpolate in strings, which i understand. I do get a Cannot assign to a read only variable  or value, I'll chase the place where it is called to see if the problem is there
23:19 dlynes Ulti: ok, thanks.  I'm hoping it's a little less write-only than perl5
23:19 hankache timotimo this is what i did but was just making sure
23:20 dlynes Ulti: I liked how easy it is to write code in perl, just not how difficult it is to read other people's code (or my own after I haven't touched it for a couple of years)
23:20 hankache timotimo yes there are more branches but they are all too old
23:20 theorbtwo Beware that you can write bad code in any language.
23:20 cygx no_gravity: 'my' is more like ES6 'let'
23:20 RabidGravy more regular syntax
23:21 dlynes theorbtwo: of course.  the obfuscated c contest is a prime example
23:21 no_gravity cygx: ok
23:21 flussence dlynes: having things like event-driven programming built in will help there, since you don't have half a dozen competing modules doing it
23:21 Ulti dlynes well regex is usually a big part of that in Perl 5 rather than the whole language, Perl 6 has grammars which are quite readable... Perl 5 does now have something similar with named regex
23:23 dlynes Ulti: one thing I found really irritating in perl5 was all of these cpan modules that were written duplicating functionality, but none seemed to want to work together (inheritance, ...)  There was a ParseExcel.pm, a WriteExcel.pm, and neither was compatible with each other
23:23 dlynes Ulti: so you couldn't actually write a piece of code that could update an Excel file
23:24 dlynes Ulti: Python overcomes this using Jython, so you can use the Apache POI package
23:24 Ulti dlynes yeah thats gone since Perl 6 has more feature rich OOP so people dont have to pick their pet favourite when writing their own modules
23:24 RabidGravy that's not the language though, rather than the authors
23:24 stmuk I don't see having choice in modules as bad
23:24 RabidGravy no I don't either
23:25 RabidGravy anyway time to crash I think
23:25 autarch am I right in thinking that .precomp dirs get locked while a program is running? that seems bad if I want to have two different programs running with the same 'use lib'
23:25 dlynes RabidGravy: yeah, but with cpan, it was prevalent.  There's like ten different modules for the doing the exact same thing usually.
23:25 Ulti its not the choice, I know what dlynes is talking about... BioPerl had a huge issue for a while with needing to install several OO systems just to have incredibly basic functionality and two tree algorithm libraries depended on and used different tree implementations
23:25 Ulti stuff like that sucks
23:25 flussence autarch: locked only while precompiling
23:26 autarch flussence: I think there may be a bug then
23:26 stmuk well perl6 has OO built in to a larger degree than perl5
23:26 dlynes Ulti: or often times I'd have to install close to 100 cpan modules just to install one piece of software
23:26 flussence oh, there's plenty of locking bugs in that code... :)
23:26 theorbtwo I very much doubt that's going to change.
23:26 dlynes Ulti: OTRS is a prime example
23:26 autarch I don't have a good repro recipe other than "run a long running piece of cude with use lib in it - run some other code that uses the same lib"
23:27 Ulti dlynes: I didnt mind that so much more recently since cpan got to the point it "just worked" which wasn't always true
23:27 theorbtwo In the short term, there will be fewer competing modules doing the same thing, mostly since there will be fewer modules.
23:27 Ulti Perl 5 being mature means weirdly it has a lot more going for it now than it used to when it was at the height of its popularity
23:27 hankache good night everyone
23:27 autarch I'm already seeing people reimplement horrible Perl 5 things though :(
23:27 billN1VUX scanning the log, i found rjbs had already asked my question, and the answer worked.  So Sixmas received, thanks all !
23:27 hankache see you tomorrow
23:28 dlynes Ulti: Yeah...I get ya....cpan's a lot better now than it used to be.  Several years ago, you'd install a cpan module and it would completely break perl.  You'd have to reinstall your whole distro just to get back to a sane system
23:28 snarkyboojum joined #perl6
23:28 autarch someone went and replicated Email::Simple & Email::MIME - that API should stay in 5-land
23:29 autarch if I had one plea for Perl 6 it's "please don't copy Perl 5 stuff without asking Perl 5 people if that's a good idea"
23:30 Ulti autarch or at least we should have some high level namespace convention for things being ported
23:30 Ulti like ACME >:3
23:30 autarch hah
23:30 [Coke] lizmat++ for fixing it, thanks.
23:31 [Coke] No one should expect a just-released compiler to be available in any linux distros a day after ther elease.
23:32 * flussence rejects that version of reality and attempts to make it happen anyway :)
23:32 Ulti well they can expect it... so long as they also expect constant disapointment
23:33 no_gravity left #perl6
23:33 timotimo :)
23:33 [Coke] autarch: we asked a couple of people familiar with p5, for sure. :)
23:33 timotimo i think people with a passing interest in perl 6 have a history of disappointment, eh? :(
23:33 Ulti I think I have cognitive dissonance just at Perl 6 being stamped and released
23:33 autarch [Coke]: I mean with the specific module in question
23:33 autarch like ask the author/maintainer "is this a good API?"
23:34 Ulti timotimo the key there is "passing" I think most people that go just a tad deeper have the opposite experience
23:34 autarch although maybe rjbs likes Email::{Simple,MIME} and I'm the only one who finds it very hard to work with
23:35 czipperz joined #perl6
23:35 theorbtwo autarch: rjbs is very much a perl5 person, so I'm not sure your "ask a perl5 person" would have changed things.
23:35 czipperz Hello
23:35 Ulti hi
23:35 czipperz Its the big day!
23:35 czipperz Or was it yesterday...
23:35 autarch maybe my point isn't clear - I'm saying ask the Perl 5 module author or maintainer if this is an API that they think should be ported as-is
23:36 kjs_ joined #perl6
23:36 theorbtwo czipperz: That was yesterday, sorry.
23:36 [Coke] czipperz: mostly yesterday, but today's fine for celebrating too.
23:36 timotimo Ulti: could be :)
23:36 Ulti every day is a big day on this channel, big commits big branches big vision big hearts
23:36 billN1VUX In P5 CPAN, *::Simple is almost always over-simplified, almost always sufficient, and doesn't en-cruft your client code with 7 lines of set-up. But when you need those 7 lines of customization ... it fails. /end generalization
23:36 timotimo Ulti: i wasn't a "passing interest" kind of person related to perl6 at any point; it kind of hit me square in the face :P
23:37 autarch or to be clearer - before anyone goes and translates anything I've written in Perl 5 directly into Perl 6 please ask me first ;)
23:37 [Coke] autarch: did is your giant compare of output perl6-doc thing?
23:38 autarch [Coke]: had to fix a bug in my Pod::To::HTMl rewrite first - it got really far along generating the site then died
23:38 Ulti in 2010ish I was thinking about rage quiting Perl then I played with the first R* and decided I would hold out... and Perl 5 also got better in the same period which was unexpected
23:38 itaipu joined #perl6
23:38 autarch but I'll get there soon, I think
23:38 ZoffixWin hm, one of the comments on HN: "I installed rakudo and played with it a little. However, the repl was horrible. Is there a repl that accepts multiline subroutines and if possible readline support?"
23:38 [Coke] ok. I want to focus on perl-doc for a few days, and making it faster would be super nice. :)
23:38 ZoffixWin Is that what Linenoise does?
23:39 hoelzro ZoffixWin: Linenoise provides rudimentary readline-like support
23:39 [Coke] ZoffixWin: yes. suggest they get panda, and then panda install Linenoise
23:39 Ulti :'(
23:39 Ulti also Task::Star installs
23:39 flussence Linenoise does many things, but being readline isn't one of them
23:39 [Coke] I've also heard rlwrap is ok.
23:39 Ulti I did it about ten minutes ago
23:40 Ulti ZoffixWin that curl liner will work now... :P if we can get it on a slightly nicer domain than my gist
23:40 autarch [Coke]: I actually started rewriting _the whole thing_ in another branch, and I had threaded generation working, but it was much too big of a change for anyone to review, so I decided to go back and do things more slowly
23:40 autarch the first step regardless is to make Pod::To::HTML a proper class - right now you _can't_ thread it because it uses package-level vars for everything
23:40 ZoffixWin Ulti, you may wanna ping moritz or someone with domain-creating powers for that :)
23:40 [Coke] does panda have an "update all modules I have installeD" option?
23:40 no_gravity joined #perl6
23:40 no_gravity So numbers are objects in perl6 and have a method "is-prime"?
23:41 autarch once we switch over to my new Pod::To::HTML we can probably slap in threading for doc generation as an interim measure very quickly
23:41 [Coke] everything in perl 6 is an object if you like.
23:41 hoelzro the multi-line input is tough; won't we have to add incremental parse support to Perl6::Grammar?
23:41 ZoffixWin no_gravity, yup
23:41 [Coke] m: say 1237.is-prime
23:41 camelia rakudo-moar 1bdb78: OUTPUT«True␤»
23:41 no_gravity m: a=7
23:41 camelia rakudo-moar 1bdb78: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/7O8NGVaWsC␤Undeclared routine:␤    a used at line 1␤␤»
23:41 [Coke] m: my $a=7;
23:41 no_gravity whats wrong with a=7?
23:41 camelia rakudo-moar 1bdb78: ( no output )
23:41 Ulti ZoffixWin can we do it with just DNS records? :3
23:41 ZoffixWin m: say ^1000 .grep: *.is-prime
23:41 camelia rakudo-moar 1bdb78: OUTPUT«(2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61 67 71 73 79 83 89 97 101 103 107 109 113 127 131 137 139 149 151 157 163 167 173 179 181 191 193 197 199 211 223 227 229 233 239 241 251 257 263 269 271 277 281 283 293 307 311 313 317 331 337 347 349 353 …»
23:42 cygx no_gravity: wrong language?
23:42 no_gravity somehow i thought variable names do not necesserely need to be prefixed with $
23:42 [Coke] no_gravity: 1: variables have sigils unless you declare them with a \ - also you have to declare them.
23:42 [Coke] m: my \a = 3;
23:42 camelia rakudo-moar 1bdb78: ( no output )
23:42 ZoffixWin no_gravity, Perl 6 uses sigils, like PHP, Perl 5, and AutoIt for example
23:42 [Coke] m: my \a = 3; say a
23:42 camelia rakudo-moar 1bdb78: OUTPUT«3␤»
23:42 [Coke] so, you were close.
23:42 no_gravity m: \a=7; say a.is-prime;
23:42 camelia rakudo-moar 1bdb78: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/W3HVQBIhlV␤Undeclared routine:␤    a used at line 1␤␤»
23:42 [Coke] no_gravity: "my"
23:42 ZoffixWin no_gravity, you're missing 'my'
23:42 no_gravity m: my \a=7; say a.is-prime;
23:42 camelia rakudo-moar 1bdb78: OUTPUT«True␤»
23:42 no_gravity ok
23:42 hoelzro also, I should probably spend some time integrating DrForr's Readline module with Perl6::Compiler
23:42 autarch I assume that we expect normal code to mostly use sigils, not binding, right?
23:43 ZoffixWin Right
23:43 [Coke] autarch: binding is :=, not \
23:43 autarch oh, what's \ then?
23:43 ZoffixWin makes it a constant, essentially
23:43 no_gravity can you talk to the perl6 bot directly?
23:43 ZoffixWin m: my \Δ = 42;  say Δ
23:43 camelia rakudo-moar 1bdb78: OUTPUT«42␤»
23:43 ZoffixWin no_gravity, yes, you can /msg her
23:43 [Coke] yes. on irssi, I use "/msg camelia m: say 3" , e.g
23:44 * geekosaur has a /query open to camelia
23:44 Ulti m: \a=5; a++; say a;
23:44 ZoffixWin m: my \Δ = 42;  say Δ; Δ = 43; say Δ
23:44 camelia rakudo-moar 1bdb78: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/_ZtO1aTJqo␤Undeclared routine:␤    a used at line 1␤␤»
23:44 camelia rakudo-moar 1bdb78: OUTPUT«42␤Cannot modify an immutable Int␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/Z99WB0QfNh line 1␤␤»
23:44 ZoffixWin m: my $x = 42; my \Δ = $x;  say Δ; Δ = 43; say Δ
23:44 camelia rakudo-moar 1bdb78: OUTPUT«42␤43␤»
23:44 ZoffixWin [Coke], looks like it *is* binding ^
23:44 ZoffixWin m: my $x = 42; my \Δ = $x;  say Δ; Δ = 43; say Δ; say $x
23:44 camelia rakudo-moar 1bdb78: OUTPUT«42␤43␤43␤»
23:44 flussence autarch: on behalf of everyone who ever touched Pod::To::HTML I'd like to apologise for its existence. It was hacked together just to make S26.html work, and then swiftly abandoned because nobody wanted to improve it when it took an hour to run :/
23:44 autarch haha
23:45 [Coke] interesting. I thought the main distinction of \ was lack of context.
23:45 no_gravity ZoffixWin: i tried, but did not get an answer.
23:45 autarch I think I've made it slower, I'm afraid - I mean pod2html'ing a single document is almost certainly slower
23:45 autarch but since it's now a sane class you can make many of them at once
23:45 ZoffixWin no_gravity, you still need to use the "m:" prefix
23:45 no_gravity ZoffixWin: oh, ok
23:45 Ulti no_gravity camelia talks several different implementations of Perl 6
23:46 Ulti the m: means send your code to the MoarVM version of Rakudo
23:46 [Coke] j: say 3
23:46 geekosaur camelia: help
23:46 camelia rakudo-jvm 6c0f93: OUTPUT«3␤»
23:46 camelia geekosaur: Usage: <(nqp-js|star-j|rakudo-MOAR|niecza|nqp-parrot|rakudo-moar|p5-to-p6|debug-cat|pugs|nqp-jvm|nqp-moarvm|star-m|prof-m|std|rakudo-jvm|rPn|nPr|r-jvm|rj|rn|nrP|r-j|nqp|perl6|rakudo|Prn|star|n|nqp-m|nr|sm|nom|rnP|nqp-mvm|P|M|p56|Pnr|m|r|rm|sj|p6|nqp-q|r-m|nqp-p|nqp-j|j)(?^::\s(?!OUTPUT))
23:46 camelia ..$perl6_program>
23:46 autarch BTW, my version probably gets us a bit closer to rendering S26, but I need various Rakudo Pod-parsing bugs fixed first
23:46 Ulti [Coke]: living dangerously
23:46 * colomon has ABC running without error if run uninstalled, but the panda-installed version dies in panda / rakudo (???) code
23:46 autarch err, I don't mean first, I mean to _really_ render S26 the Rakudo bugs need to be fixed too
23:46 [Coke] autarch: if you'd like to tag team on ssomething, let me know. I'll focus on incremental doc improvements for now.
23:47 autarch sounds good
23:47 autarch I'm hoping to have this first PR ready tonight or tomorrow
23:47 cygx improvements like interpreting formatting codes in table cells?
23:47 * flussence decides not to put this RAKUDO_PREFIX thing into the makefile, because it's a workaround for something that doesn't affect normal users
23:48 geekosaur not all of those work; the std: parser is currently broken (and mostly superseded), pugs is ancient and unmaintained, niecza is slightly less ancient and unmaintained, etc.
23:48 autarch cygx: no, actually, that I've worked around - just search rt for anything I've reported - there are bugs with defn blocks and other things
23:48 ZoffixWin m: $контрольная-работа = 42; say $контрольная-работа
23:48 camelia rakudo-moar 1bdb78: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/XEe7lLAIBB␤Variable '$контрольная-работа' is not declared␤at /tmp/XEe7lLAIBB:1␤------> 3<BOL>7⏏5$контрольная-работа = 42; say $контрольн␤»
23:48 ZoffixWin m: my $контрольная-работа = 42; say $контрольная-работа
23:48 camelia rakudo-moar 1bdb78: OUTPUT«42␤»
23:49 flussence looks like the env var list in docs/running.pod could use some updating too
23:49 * flussence does that
23:49 [Coke] does it really take that many letters to say "test" in Russian?
23:50 kjs_ joined #perl6
23:50 ZoffixWin [Coke], no, it takes 4. "контрольная работа" means "test job" really. Not sure why Google translates it to that
23:51 ZoffixWin or "control job" I guess
23:51 cygx autarch: what's your workaround? I'm using a =begin code :allow<B I> right now
23:51 no_gravity m: my $a-1=3;
23:51 camelia rakudo-moar 1bdb78: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value of type Any in numeric context  in block <unit> at /tmp/fMYEtSD8ho line 1␤Cannot modify an immutable Int␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/fMYEtSD8ho line 1␤␤»
23:51 no_gravity why does that give an error?
23:51 ZoffixWin no_gravity, you can't have numbers after hyphens
23:51 no_gravity ZoffixWin: i see
23:51 [Coke] m: my $a-b=3
23:51 camelia rakudo-moar 1bdb78: ( no output )
23:51 geekosaur it can't tel if that's a name "$a-1" or an expression ($a - 1)
23:52 autarch cygx: see https://github.com/autarch/perl6-Pod-TreeWalker/blob/master/lib/Pod/TreeWalker.pm6#L50 and follow the code
23:52 autarch basically I EVAL the text to turn it into Pod ;)
23:53 [Coke] autarch: that sounds... suboptimal.
23:53 autarch well, it's a workaround, of course it's suboptimal!
23:56 timotimo geekosaur: no, it can tell that it's the name and not the expression
23:56 timotimo except, after a - no number is allowed
23:56 timotimo m: say $a-1
23:56 camelia rakudo-moar 1bdb78: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/F6pUaLAVdq␤Variable '$a' is not declared␤at /tmp/F6pUaLAVdq:1␤------> 3say 7⏏5$a-1␤»
23:56 timotimo that's a sign i should actually go to bed
23:57 bpmedley joined #perl6
23:57 ZoffixWin Well, I'm unsure how many times I've said this, but....
23:57 ZoffixWin Time to resume the heavy drinking ^_^
23:59 [Coke] m: my \b = 3; my $a = 3; my $a-b = 3;
23:59 camelia rakudo-moar 1bdb78: ( no output )
23:59 geekosaur timotimo, I'm explaining the reason why that restriction exists; the restriction itself was already described

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