Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2016-01-01

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 flussence !
00:00 Skarsnik It should be in the next release
00:00 ShimmerFairy m: say Perl.new
00:00 camelia rakudo-moar 2ae0df: OUTPUT«Perl 6 (6.c)␤»
00:00 masak m: say Perl.old
00:00 camelia rakudo-moar 2ae0df: OUTPUT«Method 'old' not found for invocant of class 'Perl'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/Bb0QZUlVkM line 1␤␤»
00:00 masak aww :)
00:05 * flussence goes off to fix up a few now-dead SSL certs on my LAN because I'm really lazy with specifying dates...
00:05 gfldex is there introspection for nodal-ness?
00:08 gfldex m: say .name, ' ', .?nodal for List.^methods
00:08 camelia rakudo-moar 2ae0df: OUTPUT«from-iterator Nil␤from-slurpy Nil␤from-slurpy-onearg Nil␤from-slurpy-flat Nil␤new Nil␤to Nil␤from Nil␤sum Nil␤fmt Nil␤reification-target Nil␤iterator Nil␤Seq True␤sink Nil␤STORE Nil␤eager Nil␤Capture Nil␤FLATTENABLE_LIST Nil…»
00:08 gfldex there is :)
00:10 [Coke] RT: 1,147; JVM: 44; weird: 13; nom: 34; glr: 6
00:12 ZoffixWin How do I represent the "null character" in a regex? <[\0]> ain't it
00:12 ZoffixWin s/character/byte/;
00:12 RabidGravy Happy new year fromGMT+0.0001 :)
00:13 ZoffixWin m: say '0' ~~ /<[\0]>/
00:13 camelia rakudo-moar 2ae0df: OUTPUT«「0」␤»
00:13 grondilu Happy new year guys (France here, 1am)
00:13 ZoffixWin m: say '0' ~~ /<[\[0]]>/
00:13 camelia rakudo-moar 2ae0df: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/uDj_0AwG2k␤Unable to parse expression in metachar:sym<assert>; couldn't find final '>' ␤at /tmp/uDj_0AwG2k:1␤------> 3say '0' ~~ /<[\[0]7⏏5]>/␤    expecting any of:␤        term␤»
00:13 ZoffixWin -_-
00:13 ZoffixWin RabidGravy, HNY
00:13 [Coke] m: say "\0" ~~ / "\0" /
00:13 camelia rakudo-moar 2ae0df: OUTPUT«「␀」␤»
00:13 [Coke] ^^
00:13 ZoffixWin m: say "\0" ~~ / <-["\0"]> /
00:13 camelia rakudo-moar 2ae0df: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤    Quotes are not metacharacters in character classes␤    at /tmp/PFSqEC6CRH:1␤    ------> 3say "\0" ~~ / <-["\7⏏0"]> /␤    Repeated character (") unexpectedly found in character class␤    at /tmp/PFSqEC6CRH:1␤ …»
00:14 ZoffixWin [Coke], I need to do a <-[\0\n\r]> where \0 is the null byte
00:14 ShimmerFairy m: say "\0" ~~ / < \0 > /
00:14 camelia rakudo-moar 2ae0df: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
00:15 ShimmerFairy m: say "\0" ~~ / <[\c@]> /
00:15 camelia rakudo-moar 2ae0df: OUTPUT«「␀」␤»
00:15 ZoffixWin :o
00:15 ShimmerFairy ZoffixWin: ^^^ looks like you can use \c@ , at least :)
00:15 ZoffixWin ShimmerFairy, what sorcery is that?
00:15 ShimmerFairy m: say "\0" ~~ / \0 /
00:15 camelia rakudo-moar 2ae0df: OUTPUT«「␀」␤»
00:15 RabidGravy being about five miles east of Greenwich and all
00:15 ShimmerFairy Looks like \0 only doesn't work in character classes, who knows why.
00:15 timotimo \x00?
00:15 ZoffixWin m: say "\0" ~~ / <-[\x00]> /
00:15 camelia rakudo-moar 2ae0df: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
00:16 ZoffixWin m: say "f" ~~ / <-[\x00]> /
00:16 camelia rakudo-moar 2ae0df: OUTPUT«「f」␤»
00:16 ZoffixWin timotimo++
00:16 ShimmerFairy ZoffixWin: \c followed by a single character is like the ^J syntax you see in terminals, e.g. \cJ -> ^J -> LF . No clue why I reached for that first, instead of \x00 :P
00:18 hobbs H^@e^@l^@l^@o^@ ^@f^@r^@o^@m^@ ^@W^@i^@n^@d^@o^@w^@s ^@N^@T^@
00:18 devop joined #perl6
00:20 ShimmerFairy (worth noting that \c[ doesn't work to get \e, since the left bracket will be seen as introducing something long to \c, e.g. \c[13,10] or \c[DIGIT ZERO] )
00:27 llfourn joined #perl6
00:30 Quety joined #perl6
00:30 Quety Hello #perl6, happy new year !
00:31 Quety I've a little question : what's your IDE for Perl6 on Linux ?
00:31 ZoffixWin Quety, Atom
00:31 ZoffixWin I'm hoping Sublime Text 2 will eventually get a proper highlighter, because I hate Atom
00:32 Quety I'm in the same case that you ZoffixWin : I like Sublime but the highlight for perl6 is just horrible
00:33 masak guess you have to lobby the Sublime Text people somehow
00:33 masak must be hard, this liking-closed-source-editors thing :P
00:33 ZoffixWin I don't think the P6 highligher is written as them
00:33 ZoffixWin s/as/by/;
00:34 ZoffixWin And that part *is* opensource. I just don't wanna fix it :P
00:34 masak I can sort of understand that
00:34 masak so... maybe 2016 is the year of vim, too? :D
00:34 masak 'night, #perl6
00:34 ZoffixWin night
00:35 ZoffixWin vim is for masochists :)
00:35 Quety Gute nacht masak ! :)
00:37 hobbs every year is the year of vim.
00:37 RabidGravy Quety, my IDE is Linux ;-)
00:38 hobbs 2016 might be the year of neovim :)
00:38 ShimmerFairy We really need some kind of editor that's like emacs, but Perl 6 instead of elisp :D
00:38 RabidGravy ZoffixWin, I've used vi for thirty years I can't fix how my brain works now
00:38 hobbs pmac6.
00:39 Hotkeys I use atom cause it's pretty decent and I'm a windows pleb
00:39 Quety Or there is Padre...
00:39 RabidGravy look forward to a working perl 6 port
00:39 Hotkeys is there a perl 6 linter yet for atom
00:40 cbk__ joined #perl6
00:41 ShimmerFairy Quety: true, but I vastly prefer "text editors" over fancy IDE-ish things; I also would like to see an editor as extensible as emacs, but with a different language. (If I were crazy enough...) :)
00:43 blub i cant wait for guilemacs on hurd
00:43 RabidGravy you see I've been exposed to emacs almost as long as vi but I never cleaved to it, don't know why, maybe in a hundred years someone will right a paper on it
00:43 geekosaur they exist, or existed. most of the ones I know of went commercial and died
00:44 geekosaur (brief/crisp, epsilon, some editor that borland bought)
00:45 geekosaur the
00:45 Hotkeys I tried to use vim when I had my brief affair with linux
00:45 geekosaur (still around although who knows how maintained it is. also, probably only of interest to a certain class of geek >.> )
00:45 Hotkeys but then I went back to windows because I was using arch and arch is annoying
00:46 RabidGravy there was an editor with the old commercial watcom C distribution that did vi/emacs personalities died twenty years ago
00:47 ShimmerFairy RabidGravy: I use vim for quick in-terminal edits of stuff, but I can't imagine using it for serious editing :P
00:47 Hotkeys vim is good for serious editing especially if you make it all fancy-like
00:48 Hotkeys add the nerd tree
00:48 Hotkeys get powerline up in there
00:48 Hotkeys or not
00:48 Hotkeys if you like plain vim
00:48 ShimmerFairy I dunno, the fact that a text editor needs to be put in a special mode to edit text makes me doubtful... :P
00:49 lucs ShimmerFairy: For me, what you said, but  s/vim/vi/  and  s/it for/anything but Vim for/
00:49 RabidGravy I'm quite happy with a plain old vi if it isn't the sun one
00:50 lucs (my Vim is kinda very very customized after 15 years of tweaking)
00:50 ShimmerFairy Really, I like emacs (and I like lisp languages too!), it's just that I suspect a really good Perl 6 major mode needs a P6 parser to be really good :)
00:51 ShimmerFairy (also, it'd be incredibly interesting to see how P6 handles in a situation like "be a text editor")
00:51 TimToady > p6 'say so "\0" ~~ /<[\0]>/'
00:51 TimToady True
00:52 TimToady was an nqp bug
00:52 ShimmerFairy TimToady: ah, I had a feeling it was a bug, since it was only character classes that didn't like it :)
00:52 geekosaur (I should install THE for old times' sake, unfortunately my rexx has probably bitrotted beyond usefulness)
00:52 ShimmerFairy ZoffixWin: ^^^ turns out you should've been able to use \0   :)
00:53 TimToady spectesting before committing though
00:54 * TimToady hopes nobody put in a test for the faulty behavior...
00:54 nige1 joined #perl6
00:56 ShimmerFairy .oO(if TimToady is always right (Rule #1), and roast is _the_ definition of v6.c, what happens when they disagree?)
00:56 TimToady that's what Rule #2 is for :)
00:57 timotimo evening TimToady
00:57 ShimmerFairy :)
00:57 timotimo and hi ShimmerFairy
00:57 TimToady well, we got through S05, which is a good sign
00:57 ShimmerFairy hai timotimo o/
00:58 ShimmerFairy btw, it's incredibly weird that "the test is wrong; just fix it" is no longer an option [without a language update]  :)
00:58 RabidGravy you lot are all "west of Greenwich" now right?
00:59 * timotimo is east of greenwich
00:59 RabidGravy and probably furter than Deptford or Rotherhithe
00:59 ShimmerFairy RabidGravy: We're all both, I think, but I'm at least on the west coast of the US :)
00:59 RabidGravy timotimo++
00:59 timotimo um, why do i get ++'d?
01:00 RabidGravy because
01:00 RabidGravy I can take it back if it makes you uncomfortable ;-)
01:01 timotimo hah
01:01 timotimo no, it's fine
01:01 timotimo i'm going to do a bit more stuff tonight
01:01 timotimo likely going to give a reason for ++ing me
01:04 dalek roast: 1417783 | TimToady++ | S05-metasyntax/charset.t:
01:04 dalek roast: test that \0 works inside cclasses
01:04 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/1417783166
01:04 dalek nqp: d86a422 | TimToady++ | src/QRegex/P6Regex/ (2 files):
01:04 dalek nqp: entry for \0 was missing in character classes
01:04 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/d86a4226b7
01:04 cygx joined #perl6
01:04 cygx o/
01:05 cygx so, let's check if we've managed to hit the Ballmer peak today ;)
01:06 RabidGravy timotimo, you're going to sneak in and work out why this gdbm binding is segfaulting?  nice one ;-)
01:06 dalek rakudo/nom: c6cb07e | TimToady++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
01:06 dalek rakudo/nom: 1st NPQ bump ever for official Perl 6 :)
01:06 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c6cb07e5e7
01:06 TimToady er, *NQP
01:07 RabidGravy cygx, dunno about Ballmer but I shouldn't be allowed anywhere near software
01:07 ZoffixWin TimToady, you had one job!
01:07 ZoffixWin ^_^
01:07 ZoffixWin Happy New Year everyone :D
01:08 RabidGravy TimToady :-*
01:08 RabidGravy ZoffixWin, and you :-*
01:08 flussence merry christmas to everyone in UTC-192
01:09 timotimo RabidGravy: i don't even know what gdbm is
01:09 ShimmerFairy part of me wishes v6.🎄 would be a valid literal Version :P
01:09 flussence gdbm is a hash-oriented database thing
01:09 RabidGravy it's a thing, store shit on disk at your behest
01:10 timotimo ah, hm
01:10 RabidGravy oh what flussence said
01:10 flussence tl;dr: disk-backed %es
01:11 flussence I might be wrong but I *think* that's why perl5's tying feature exists...
01:11 TimToady m: say so "\0" ~~ /<[\0]>/
01:11 camelia rakudo-moar c6cb07: OUTPUT«True␤»
01:11 RabidGravy got me totally baffled to the extent I'm ignoring it
01:11 herby__ joined #perl6
01:12 herby__ Good evening, everyone!
01:12 timotimo hello herby__
01:12 RabidGravy there's an off by one error in the hash function but I can't work out how I could cause it
01:13 herby__ \o
01:14 lichtkind hai herby
01:15 perigrin flussence: I don't think you're wrong. I doubt strongly it exists because "crack" ... which is the only other explanation I have for it.
01:16 RabidGravy flussence, to the extent that it was a generalisation of the earlier (s|g|n)dbm functionality yes - TimToady may remember the history better
01:16 TimToady that was one reason for tie, yes
01:16 TimToady but I rarely do things for one reason
01:17 TimToady it was also to build an OO bridge to traditionally non-OO variables
01:18 * perigrin puts that deep in the "crack" category and claims he was right.
01:18 RabidGravy and stuff
01:18 herby__ anyone doing any html parsing yet with Perl 6?
01:18 Skarsnik Yes, with Gumbo and XML
01:19 RabidGravy perigrin, where on the Westbrook-Thompson scale though?
01:19 Skarsnik herby_, http://skarsnik-stuff.blogspot.fr/2015/11/scrapping-web-with-perl6-so-you-want-to.html
01:19 Skarsnik and really good night #perl6 this time x)
01:20 RabidGravy have fun sweety
01:21 perigrin RabidGravy: I'm ... not sure. I think it's about a 5 on the Bristol Stool Scale though.
01:22 RabidGravy I'm going around Keith Richards myself
01:23 RabidGravy also it allowed some nut-job to write a Linux filsystem in Perl back when fuse was young and fresh
01:24 perigrin acutally there are still nutjobs who do that.
01:24 RabidGravy cool
01:24 perigrin https://github.com/xantronix/Filesys-POSIX # warning Perl5.
01:24 perigrin She's one of hte nicer nutjobs I've met.
01:26 RabidGravy the looniest are the nicest
01:28 llfourn joined #perl6
01:29 lnrdo joined #perl6
01:32 * timotimo is rewriting the hyper/race code to be a bit less convoluted
01:32 timotimo so the fix can actually perhaps land this time :)
01:34 RabidGravy as far as I'm concerbed the hyper/race stuff is in got sacrificing territory so you're cool
01:34 RabidGravy goat
01:38 timotimo :)
01:38 timotimo yeah, i guess i'm cool
01:39 timotimo i wouldn't mind if compiling rakudo would become 2x faster again :)
01:44 sprocket joined #perl6
01:47 RabidGravy just doing a half hour of seventies disco music then bed
01:48 timotimo heh.
01:50 xpen joined #perl6
01:51 RabidGravy actually no I'm thoroughly ratted, catch you all later. TimToady++ # for superhuman engagement.  Love you all.
01:51 timotimo gnite RabidGravy :)
01:54 kid51 joined #perl6
01:55 herby__ Any recommended reading on creating simple parsers? I'd like to create a simple (if there is such a thing) HTML parser
01:55 herby__ I have a basic grasp on programming
01:55 herby__ and I know thats a very broad question :)
01:55 herby__ I'm just not sure where to start
01:58 timotimo hm
01:59 timotimo have you ever worked with PEG parsers or something?
01:59 timotimo or perl6 grammars/rules and such?
01:59 herby__ nope. I've lightly touched on grammars.  Maybe I should start on a simpler parser than HTML?
01:59 herby__ I'm just trying to think of a simple, useful project to tackle with Perl 6
01:59 herby__ beyond hello world
02:00 herby__ i guess I could take a look at some popular Perl 5 modules, and try to recreate in Perl 6?
02:04 khw joined #perl6
02:08 cygx night o/
02:10 ggoebel7 joined #perl6
02:11 [Coke] herby_: there's a list of wanted modules if you're looking to re-create something.
02:11 [Coke] https://github.com/perl6/perl6-most-wanted/blob/master/most-wanted/modules.md
02:11 timotimo the re-write attempt failed
02:12 timotimo y'know ... the code isn't *that* terrible
02:12 timotimo i'll just merge it
02:13 flussence .oO( famous last words... )
02:13 flussence oh that reminds me, I better go test that libuv 1.8 branch for brrt++
02:13 timotimo that'd be nice, yeah :)
02:14 flussence "bash: ./Configure.pl: perl: bad interpreter: No such file or directory" -- what the fffffff...
02:14 rickbike joined #perl6
02:14 flussence oh, it doesn't like it when I do ./Configure.pl, wants perl Configure.pl...
02:15 flussence -ETOOMERRY
02:19 zacts now that Perl6 and Rakudo christmas are out, what are the current target goals or major areas being focused on with Rakudo?
02:19 timotimo ------> llable ?? $op !! try EVAL "&infix:<$op>"⏏ -> $matcher {
02:19 timotimo getting this problem while bootstrapping panda
02:19 timotimo ==> Testing File::Find
02:20 timotimo how come that isn't fixed already? i thought others were using panda successfully?
02:21 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
02:22 timotimo oh, i might need to nuke my install/
02:24 llfourn joined #perl6
02:24 dalek rakudo/nom: 20c796c | timotimo++ | src/core/HyperSeq.pm:
02:24 dalek rakudo/nom: hyper now cares about sequence numbers of work
02:24 dalek rakudo/nom:
02:24 dalek rakudo/nom: this code wants to get a bit cleaned up. i'm sure
02:24 dalek rakudo/nom: the control flow could be a bit less convoluted.
02:24 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/20c796cd31
02:26 timotimo yes, nuking install helped
02:30 sprocket joined #perl6
02:46 ZoffixWin zacts, my wild guess would be bug fixes and optimization.
02:46 ZoffixWin zacts, the .hyper is buggy and I believe >> operator still doesn't thread
02:47 * ZoffixWin feels a deja vu seeing "this code wants to get a bit cleaned up." in a commit message -_-
02:47 ZoffixWin Seems this line could just read `last unless ...` https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/20c796cd31#diff-0240907cc1aea1febbf0cc563bf00956R182
02:48 ZoffixWin With the if {} condition following it
02:48 zacts oh cool, thanks ZoffixWin
02:49 ZoffixWin BTW, my New Years bot crapped out and was reporting wrong times. But it got fixed after I simply restarted it. My slight worry is there might be something wrong with Promises set to execute several hours in the future :(
02:49 ZoffixWin (that'd be fun to debug)
02:50 timotimo who's good with graphviz here?
02:50 timotimo Error: bad label format <0> r2(1)  <op> const_s   | <1> lits($*CTXSAVE)
02:50 timotimo ^- i'm not sure why this is problematic?
02:51 ugexe class Foo { method cache { state %bar }; }; # is there anything wrong with supplying a state variable between all class instances like this? getting a segfault on a longer running process and trying to narrow down the cause
02:51 FROGGS joined #perl6
02:52 timotimo you're not doing threads, are you?
02:52 ugexe no
02:54 timotimo :|
02:54 timotimo if you perl6-gdb-m, you should be able to find a frame that has a tc in it and print MVM_dump_backtrace(tc)
02:54 timotimo that ought to be able to find where that is
02:54 timotimo also, please try disabling JIT and maybe also spesh
02:55 timotimo disabling JIT will give you usable stack traces in gdb
02:59 timotimo the problem with that label was that a | had gone missing because of a missing |
03:00 timotimo ...
03:00 timotimo because of a missing "flat"
03:02 timotimo https://cdn.rawgit.com/mountainstorm/jquery.graphviz.svg/master/demo.html  pretty!
03:02 timotimo https://github.com/mountainstorm/jquery.graphviz.svg - this is what it belongs to
03:10 noganex joined #perl6
03:10 lucs I named a sub in my code "run"; how can I call the P6 'run' from within it?
03:10 timotimo CORE::<&run> for example
03:11 lucs Aha, thanks.
03:11 timotimo m: say &CORE::('run')()
03:11 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«Too few positionals passed; expected at least 1 argument but got only 0 in sub-signature of parameter @args␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/UjwWaF6zkZ line 1␤␤»
03:11 timotimo m: say &CORE::('run')(1)
03:11 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«Proc.new(in => IO::Pipe, out => IO::Pipe, err => IO::Pipe, exitcode => -1, pid => Any, signal => 254)␤»
03:11 timotimo m: run(1)
03:11 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«run is disallowed in restricted setting␤  in sub restricted at src/RESTRICTED.setting line 1␤  in sub run at src/RESTRICTED.setting line 14␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/IS31QSRzby line 1␤␤»
03:11 timotimo oh ... crap :)
03:11 timotimo restricted setting, you're so weak
03:14 timotimo otherwise, OUTER:: would probably be less presumptuous
03:15 lucs timotimo: Gotcha (reading up in S02). Thanks.
03:17 lnrdo joined #perl6
03:23 ugexe you could also `sub run(|c) { say "xxx"; Proc.new.spawn(|c); }; run("ls");`
03:25 ugexe i guess that doesnt set all the parameters though
03:25 FROGGS joined #perl6
03:28 timotimo rc-forest-fire-stringify                                 103/s                     44/s
03:28 timotimo 1.0x                     2.4x
03:28 timotimo reduce_range                                        51537997/s               24658809/s
03:28 timotimo 1.0x                     2.1x
03:28 timotimo slowdowns from 2015.11 to 2015.12
03:28 timotimo i wonder what that could be caused by
03:29 timotimo SUMMARY SCORE                                          100.0                     95.3
03:29 timotimo deep_scan_for_interpolated_string_var                   1412/s                   1206/s
03:29 timotimo 1.0x                     1.2x
03:29 timotimo also perhaps interesting?
03:29 * flussence goes to figure out how hard it'd be to make a half-decent --setting=SANDBOX using seccomp
03:30 dalek perl6-bench: 60ee6e4 | timotimo++ | bench:
03:30 dalek perl6-bench: exploded timings have to be appended, not pushed
03:30 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/60ee6e4bdf
03:31 autarch the doc site is all static HTML so why is it so slow to return pages?
03:31 autarch sometimes it takes a second or two to return a page which seems really odd
03:31 autarch is this running on a Raspberry Pi in TimToady's basement?
03:31 flussence they're all loading in ~500ms for me
03:32 timotimo autarch: it's our new donated p6c.org server
03:32 timotimo it should be rather snappy
03:32 autarch I think this should be snappy on a tiny VM machine too
03:32 timotimo damn
03:32 timotimo hack.p6c.org seems rather busy
03:33 timotimo http://collect.p6c.org/
03:33 autarch it's not all the time, but sometimes it really is remarkably sluggish
03:33 autarch does the site generation run on the same system?
03:34 timotimo jdv79: you had a job installing a v5 that had about 300 cpu-hours accumulated apparently
03:34 timotimo it's one host that hosts a bunch of virtual machines
03:35 ugexe wonder if thats why his http://hack.p6c.org:5000/ went down
03:35 autarch ah, so maybe stuff on another VM is causing the problem sometimes - that'd make snes
03:35 timotimo i love the SNES
03:35 timotimo hum. i have to reset my password on hack.p6c.org; i can't sudo :(
03:38 timotimo .tell jdv79 please look into that process that's trying to install v5 and somehow eating 100% cpu
03:38 yoleaux timotimo: I'll pass your message to jdv79.
03:39 * timotimo feels so powerless
03:40 * flussence is curious what the large network IO spikes every ten minutes mean
03:41 timotimo something rsyncing perhaps
03:41 flussence er, *5 minutes
03:42 timotimo i need rest.
03:42 timotimo gnite!
03:42 flussence o/
03:42 flussence ehh, it's a server. 40 megs every 5 minutes is nothing
03:42 ugexe after installing a module Foo which gets precompiled, a subsequent `perl6 -e 'use Foo'` takes twice as long as running it subsequently again any number of times. why?
03:44 flussence is it making a .precomp relative to $CWD because it thinks your -e script is "there"?
03:45 autarch has there been any discussion about changing how the core Test module works? Specifically, I'd really like to see something like p5's Test::Stream - rather than just printing to stdout, emit events to 1+ listeners - the default could of course be to just turn events into prints to stdout
03:45 ugexe no
03:45 * autarch is at least 4 modules down the stack from where he started earlier this week
03:46 ugexe it looks like testing precompiles a dist once, installation compiles it again, and then using a module precompiles it a third time
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03:46 autarch I was trying to write Test::Class but neither Test nor Test::Builder are a good thing to build it on top of - and I was trying to write Test::Class to make it easier to test Dist::Wocky, which I was writing to make it easier to manage the other modules I started writing
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03:49 hobbs yaaaaaaaaaaaks.
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03:53 autarch I will shave all of the yaks! Or more like I'm partially shaving each of a succession of nested russian doll yaks.
03:53 autarch once I shave the infinitessimally tiny yak at the center I can start shaving the bigger ones and so one
03:55 perigrin you're starting to sound like yenzie
03:55 perigrin if you take up knitting I'll be ... well impressed frankly.
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03:58 autarch who's yenzie?
03:58 autarch I think my aunt taught me how to knit when I was a little kid but I never really did any - not my thing
03:58 blub knitting is really fun
04:00 hobbs autarch: Yanick.
04:00 autarch ah
04:04 webstrand I'm still having trouble packaging panda: RAKUDO_PRECOMP_PREFIX isn't available in rakudo 2015.12. It's the only way I've managed to properly install panda to a custom prefix. Does anyone have a workaround?
04:05 flussence RAKUDO_PRECOMP_PREFIX exists *because* that was impossible in 2015.12...
04:06 flussence you either need to patch that in your rakudo package yourself, or wait for 2015.12.1
04:09 webstrand I wish I had control of the rakudo package, or I'd do just that. Guess I'll go contact the maintainer, thanks.
04:09 webstrand I was wishing for some kind of monkey patch, to avoid the hassle
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04:24 ugexe yep its definately precompiling during testing, precompiling during install, and precompiling during its first use after install
04:24 ugexe i imagine the last one should not be happening
04:29 webstrand How can I find the ~/.perl6/{version-number} path programmatically?
04:30 ugexe the last one gets precompiled with FileSystem, although its not logged with RAKUDO_LOG_PRECOMP
04:31 flussence m: put $*REPO.repo-chain[0]
04:31 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«/home/camelia/.perl6/2015.12-67-g20c796c␤»
04:49 ugexe i wish this was tested with the raw code instead of with panda. because it only happens if it doesnt install to both home and site
04:51 ugexe probably would have solved a lot of the precomp problems
04:52 ugexe if its going to be designed around panda then maybe panda should just be merged into core and be done with it
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04:59 dddddf Good morning Perl6! Happy new year.
04:59 Hotkeys just wait a few more seconds
04:59 Hotkeys and I can say the same
04:59 dddddf I just started playing with perl6 after the christmas release.  I have one 'why' question (so far).
05:00 Hotkeys HAPPY NEW YEAR
05:00 ZoffixWin HAPPY NEW YEAR EST!!!!
05:01 dddddf Why is 'split "I love chocolate" " "' OK, '"I love chocolate".split(" ")', OK, but '"I love chocolate".split " "' not?
05:01 dddddf Happy new year EST :-)
05:02 Hotkeys welcome to the future everyone
05:02 ugexe `.split: " "`
05:02 ZoffixWin \o/
05:02 Hotkeys ugexe: ++
05:02 Hotkeys m: "I love chocolate".split: " "
05:02 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: ( no output )
05:02 Hotkeys well
05:02 Hotkeys m: say "I love chocolate".split: " "
05:02 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«(I love chocolate)␤»
05:02 dddddf ugexe, ahh.... cool.  I must have missed that.
05:03 dddddf So that's how to do it... but now why? :-)  Why does a method call need a colon?
05:04 ZoffixWin dddddf, it doesn't *need* one... you can write that as .split(" ")
05:04 ugexe to differentiate it from an attribute
05:04 ZoffixWin oh
05:04 ugexe is my guess
05:04 * ZoffixWin missed the question
05:04 Hotkeys also probably to say "the stuff following this is important too"
05:05 Hotkeys rather than perl going
05:05 Hotkeys "hey whats that extra string doing there after that call?
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05:07 dddddf thanks all.  this new language seems like it's going to be my relaxing away from work coding for this year. :-)
05:08 Hotkeys woo
05:09 ugexe if programming isnt raising your blood pressure you are doing it wrong
05:09 Hotkeys true
05:11 ZoffixWin c'mon :P
05:11 ZoffixWin That's often true, but I feel it's true due to lack of planning :P
05:11 ZoffixWin Unless you're doing web dev work and supporting IE ^_^
05:11 ugexe lack of planning by others :P
05:11 ZoffixWin heh
05:12 awwaiid Ahh 2016. I sense greatness.
05:13 ZoffixWin Yeah, should be a good year for Perl 6.... it got a 6 in the name of the year after all :P
05:13 zacts 2016 will rock for Perl6 I knows it
05:14 dddddf s/relax/play/
05:14 ZoffixWin dddddf, yeah, I feel the same way :)
05:15 ZoffixWin Though I think were I to get a Perl 6 job, I'd feel like "work" just the same :P
05:16 dddddf ZoffixWin: there's a book "reality is broken", which talks a lot about gaming, and how hard work in the right way is more "fun" and better for us than passive activities.
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05:17 dddddf "the opposite of play isn't work, it's depression"
05:17 ugexe work perl6 is the relaxing part
05:18 ZoffixWin dddddf, "hard work" is very different from "coding the same boring shit your boss told you to code"
05:20 dddddf ZoffixWin, No dispute there.
05:25 dalek doc: 3bd21c4 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod:
05:25 dalek doc: add example for hyperoperator with user defined operator
05:25 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/3bd21c47ee
05:25 dalek doc: a869aa9 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod:
05:25 dalek doc: Merge pull request #305 from gfldex/master
05:25 dalek doc:
05:25 dalek doc: add example for hyperoperator with user defined operator
05:25 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/a869aa928e
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05:36 dalek doc: 81ed009 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/modules.pod:
05:36 dalek doc: mention doc-dir for modules
05:36 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/81ed009d94
05:36 dalek doc: 867e294 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/modules.pod:
05:36 dalek doc: Merge pull request #306 from gfldex/master
05:36 dalek doc:
05:36 dalek doc: mention doc-dir for modules
05:36 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/867e2946d2
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06:24 Mouq o/ #perl6 :) a happy new year to you all
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06:33 AlexDaniel “We really need some kind of editor that's like emacs, but Perl 6 instead of elisp :D” – actually, that would be great
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06:51 spacebat /quit
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07:23 ShimmerFairy blog post! :)    https://shimmeryfairy.wordpress.com/2015/12/31/a-calmer-go-at-it/
07:34 Mouq My. I missed a lot that started during my brief return in November
07:34 awwaiid How close can I get to Ruby block-with-param method calls? Emulating: bleh.each_slice(2) { |s| ... } # each_slice takes an int and a block params, like def each_slice($size, &block)
07:34 awwaiid I guess I should start with the block-only one
07:35 skids ShimmerFairy: sometimes the id can explain a problem much more accurately than the ego, so properly delimited rant posts can be a productive thing.  Psychologically we tend to overestimate our ability to cope, though -- we put on our wooden underwear instead of our steel underwear, and still manage to get burned.
07:37 Mouq m: map(1,2,3):{ $^a + $^b}
07:37 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot find method 'has_compile_time_value'␤»
07:38 ugexe bleh.each_slice>>.&(2, { ... }) ?
07:38 ShimmerFairy skids: that's a good point. However I suspect the crucial part is "properly delimited" :)
07:39 skids Yeah -- ever seen the Key and Peele "Obama anger interpreter" skit?  Now that's demiliting :-)
07:42 ShimmerFairy skids: Incidentally I have. I just hope "one post" is a sufficient delimiter :P
07:43 Mouq skids: I almost went to watch it and then remembered that K&P skits will eat hours of my time and I won't even notice
07:43 awwaiid ugexe: I was hoping for more of what Mouq suggested. I'm looking for how to expose ruby blocks from inline::ruby
07:46 awwaiid m: class Foo { method hmm($n, *&f) { &f($n) + 2 } } ; say Foo.new.hmm: 3, { $^a * 2 }
07:46 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«8␤»
07:46 awwaiid that'll do
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07:57 Mouq As an aside, http://danluu.com/julialang/ is a very well written article I came across recently, discussing perceived issues with Julia lang's development/community process
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08:00 Mouq ShimmerFairy: I apparently missed a large part of the conversation that happened, but I at least think your latest post addresses the issue much better than the one before it :)
08:15 ShimmerFairy :)
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08:51 timotimo meep
08:52 timotimo how's people?
08:52 RabidGravy alive-ish
08:52 RabidGravy :)
08:53 timotimo i have not been able to sleep long enough... feel a little zombified
08:59 zacts is Rakudo implemented in C?
08:59 zacts (the core that is)
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08:59 st_iron hello
09:00 st_iron happy new year my friends
09:01 RabidGravy zacts, no, moarvm is implemented in C, nqp is implemented in mostly C, rakudo is largely implemented in nqp and Perl 6
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09:03 RabidGravy happy new year st_iron
09:04 st_iron p6: say 'thank you ;)'
09:04 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«thank you ;)␤»
09:09 RabidGravy ugh
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09:14 timotimo rabidgravy, what makes you day thatnqp is mostly c?
09:15 RabidGravy a cursory examination of the code
09:16 timotimo huh
09:16 zacts ah ok
09:16 zacts thanks RabidGravy
09:16 zacts that's cool though, it's kind of lispy in a sense, that the rakduo is implemented in the language it aims to implement. I guess? :-)
09:17 zacts kind of reminds me of http://rubini.us
09:17 timotimo nqp is mostly implemented in nqp imo
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09:17 timotimo i wonder what all the c is that you saw
09:18 _nadim Good morning and happy new year.
09:21 skids m: [1,2,3][0].VAR.WHAT.say; Array.new(1,2,3)[0].VAR.WHAT.say; (1,2,3)[0].VAR.WHAT.say; List.new(1,2,3)[0].VAR.WHAT.say
09:21 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«(Scalar)␤(Scalar)␤(Int)␤(Scalar)␤»
09:22 skids Should that last one be Int?  Maybe missing an "is raw" on List.new()?
09:22 RabidGravy timotimo, I'm wondering too :)
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09:29 timotimo could be stuff for parrot?
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09:40 RabidGravy actually I think it's the way that the code is layed out when rakudo's configuration has pulled the nqp and moar that confused me
09:41 RabidGravy (I've never checked nqp or moar out separately)
09:49 timotimo ah, yeah
09:50 timotimo giving the cat you love her morning belly-rubs is a good way to start the day
09:50 RabidGravy :)
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10:03 timotimo mhhh, i love me some Captain Disillusion vidyas
10:04 domidumont joined #perl6
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10:11 _nadim To Whom It May Concern  https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/pull/108
10:11 dalek ecosystem: c5fe241 | (Nadim Khemir)++ | META.list:
10:11 dalek ecosystem: Add Data::Dump::Tree to ecosystem
10:11 dalek ecosystem:
10:11 dalek ecosystem: See https://github.com/nkh/P6-Data-Dump-Tree.git
10:11 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/c5fe241535
10:11 dalek ecosystem: 906e547 | RabidGravy++ | META.list:
10:11 dalek ecosystem: Merge pull request #108 from nkh/master
10:11 dalek ecosystem:
10:11 dalek ecosystem: Add Data::Dump::Tree to ecosystem
10:11 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/906e547e8e
10:13 RabidGravy 491 modules now
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10:13 _nadim I have a a few ideas up my sleeve
10:14 arthur_ is there a book coming?
10:14 RabidGravy I have a record number (for me anyway,)  in flight
10:14 arthur_ i think the average perl programmer is about 30+ years old
10:14 arthur_ he is used to read books
10:15 _nadim Does Panda, or other also write some meta data about which commit (not tag) the modules it installs come from?
10:15 RabidGravy arthur_, several people have been approached by various publishers, no-one has admitted to taking up the challenge yet
10:15 RabidGravy _nadim, no
10:15 _nadim arthur_: the average Perl programmer is 45!
10:15 _nadim RabidGravy: that's a pity
10:16 _nadim that loses some of the advantages of vcs, knowing what comes from where
10:17 RabidGravy well that's what tags are for
10:17 _nadim tags move
10:18 RabidGravy er only if one moves them
10:18 _nadim is there information about tags being recorded?
10:18 RabidGravy no
10:18 _nadim well then it doesn't matter if it is commits or tags, one doesn't know where a module  comes from
10:19 RabidGravy the modules are versioned, it is the responsibility of the author to make sure that makes sense
10:20 _nadim Sorry but I don't buy it.
10:20 RabidGravy the github thing is a red-herring, panda only installs from there as an expedient, it could just as easily be from a tarball or something else
10:21 _nadim I understand that it is not a final solution. but I also believe that we should have something a bit more controlled when it comes to versions
10:22 _nadim I worked in a group that handld 2 thousands modules with a thousand developers, you can't imagine how much fantasy they can have :)
10:22 _nadim Well, when the day of discussing some CPAN6 comes up, I'll try to give my two cents
10:23 timotimo so ... is everybody setting ulimits on their automated jobs on hack.p6c.org?
10:24 RabidGravy you seem to be wanting to mandate a certain rigid development process for module developers, good luck with that
10:25 _nadim what I said was, meta data about what version of a software is installed should be available to look into
10:26 RabidGravy you were talking about vcs commit, they are different things, yes the version that the module claims to have is recorded
10:26 _nadim I prefer a commit, a md5 of a tarball is fine, or whatnot that is unique, that doesn't mandate a development process, it mandates proper software management
10:29 _nadim Anyway, on a better note, I have ahad a great time writing my first P6 module. I like the language, and you all have done a great job.
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10:35 timotimo m: my int @a[3,3] = (1, 2, 3), (3, 4, 5), (5, 6, 7); say @a[1,*]
10:35 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«Partially dimensioned views of arrays not yet implemented. Sorry. ␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/aWKqzz13Iy line 1␤␤»
10:35 timotimo m: my int @a[3,3] = (1, 2, 3), (3, 4, 5), (5, 6, 7); say @a[1;*]
10:35 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«Partially dimensioned views of arrays not yet implemented. Sorry. ␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/jrZFIPlwsC line 1␤␤»
10:35 timotimo hmm hmm.
10:41 dalek doc: 104331a | skids++ | doc/Type/Scalar.pod:
10:41 dalek doc: Add docs for Scalar type
10:41 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/104331aca1
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10:44 masak good antenoon, #perl6
10:49 timotimo hello masak!
10:49 timotimo hey, don't you have sudo access to hack.p6c.org?
10:51 masak dunno. don't think so.
10:51 timotimo ah, indeed
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11:03 [patrickz] @ugexe: Are there RT Tickets for the zef blocking precomp bugs? For the purposes oft more directed naging those could be helpful...
11:07 [patrickz] I think having a working and used alternative to panda will prevent more and more of the ecosys relying on it.
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11:18 RabidGravy right, off out to see if I can shake this hangover :-\
11:18 RabidGravy have fun
11:21 * masak .oO( do people from Australia and New Zealand have hangunders? )
11:21 timotimo no. no. no. no. zgrviewer, you are a horrible piece of software.
11:24 timotimo xdot (aka xdot.py aka python-xdot) seems like exactly the kind of thing i want
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11:36 _nadim is it possible to capture on a type + role?
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11:39 _nadim say I have a Plane $hydroplane which does LandingOnWater an a Plane $plane, I want a multi that only catche one of them.
11:40 masak m: class Plane {}; role LandingOnWater {}; class HydroPlane does LandingOnWater {}; multi foo(Plane) { say "plane" }; multi foo(HydroPlane) { say "hydroplane" }; foo Plane.new; foo HydroPlane.new
11:40 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«plane␤hydroplane␤»
11:40 masak _nadim: close enough?
11:41 _nadim masak:  no :)
11:41 _nadim I said role because I use a type I can not change, so mixin-in a role is all I can do, and it is at run time
11:43 _nadim was thinking about  something in the lines ... multi foo(Plane does LandOnWater)
11:43 masak m: role R {}; multi check(Any) { say "doesn't do R" }; multi check(R) { say "does do R" }; check(42); check(42 but R)
11:43 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«doesn't do R␤does do R␤»
11:43 masak _nadim: better? :)
11:44 masak _nadim: you can also simply smartmatch `$obj ~~ R`
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11:46 _nadim gits like a glove
11:46 masak \o/
11:47 masak _nadim: multi dispatch works best, I find, when one implicitly leans on narrowness resolving things
11:47 masak in this case, R being narrower than not-R
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11:48 _nadim I am Ring things. it's for the dumper, sometimes I need to do magic on some elements and I need to know which element without changing it's base type
11:49 masak cute.
11:49 _nadim I think it will be. I like multis, a lot, I rather use them than ~~, but I wonder what cost that entails.
11:51 masak surprisingly little.
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12:02 nine .tell ugexe yes, tony-o did offer to take on a rewrite/redesign, commited some temporary fixes but then disappeared from the project :/
12:02 yoleaux nine: I'll pass your message to ugexe.
12:04 ChoHag So I just found out that a proto can have actual code in it before/after dispatch.
12:04 ChoHag What are the limits to that?
12:04 ChoHag Other than 'the signature remains unchanged' (ie. a sort of built-in callsame)?
12:05 nine .tell flussence if you want to play around with a SQLite based CompUnit::Repository, now's as good a time as any. Maybe https://github.com/niner/CompUnit-Repository-Panda can inspire you
12:05 yoleaux nine: I'll pass your message to flussence.
12:06 ChoHag Also how does it play with inheritence?
12:06 nine .tell perlpilot if you want to play around with a SQLite based CompUnit::Repository, now's as good a time as any. Maybe https://github.com/niner/CompUnit-Repository-Panda can inspire you
12:06 yoleaux nine: I'll pass your message to perlpilot.
12:14 nine .tell ugexe Support for something like -M"no precompilation" (or rather an ENV var) is only a couple of lines of implementation away. Personally, I'm more interested in fixing the reasons for people asking for that tool instead.
12:14 yoleaux nine: I'll pass your message to ugexe.
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12:17 _nadim masak: then multi it is! It is much cleaner too.
12:19 ChoHag If those couple of lines were included, the pressure to fix those reasons would be reduced and there would be more time to produce the "right" fix rather than rushing out something "good enough".
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12:20 nine ChoHag: please note that I'm not keeping anyone from adding those lines. Also I'm not rushing anything at all :)
12:20 ChoHag And besides your premise is wrong. Code shouldn't be written in the hope that it will never fail, but with failsafes to account for when (and it's always when) it does.
12:21 nine ChoHag: feel free to correct any results of wrong premises.
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12:22 ZoffixWin Anyone got git handy? The last module added to the ecosystem has a typo in the URL in META.list file "hhtps" instead of "https"
12:23 ChoHag The "it's open source so you fix it" is basically the programmer's equivalent of "I know you are but what am I" and about as childish.
12:23 ChoHag And helpful.
12:23 ZoffixWin This I mean: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/blob/master/META.list#L491
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12:28 _nadim https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/pull/109
12:29 dalek ecosystem: ae953cb | (Nadim Khemir)++ | META.list:
12:29 dalek ecosystem: Add Data::Dump::Tree to ecosystem
12:29 dalek ecosystem:
12:29 dalek ecosystem: See https://github.com/nkh/P6-Data-Dump-Tree.git
12:29 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/ae953cb301
12:29 dalek ecosystem: ea681bc | (Zoffix Znet)++ | META.list:
12:29 dalek ecosystem: Merge pull request #109 from nkh/master
12:29 dalek ecosystem:
12:29 dalek ecosystem: Fix incorrect URL
12:29 _nadim ZoffixWin: thanks for spotting it. I'll open a ticket on Test::META to catch that
12:29 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/ea681bcd32
12:29 ZoffixWin _nadim, erm, that's not what Test::META does
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12:32 nine ChoHag: and why exactly should I spend my precious spare time on something that I have no interest at all in?
12:32 ChoHag Because sometimes even the uninteresting things are important.
12:32 ChoHag Else why do I bother paying my bills?
12:32 nine ChoHag: childish is to expect people to do work for free for you just because you want them to.
12:33 virtualsue nine: put him on /ignore
12:33 ChoHag I expect people to take some pride in their creation.
12:33 virtualsue it's the only way
12:33 _nadim ZoffixWin: right, it's in another module
12:34 ChoHag And since I like things to not suck but know they always will: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/665
12:34 ZoffixWin The errors show up here with [error] tag, so they're not uncatchable http://modules.perl6.org/update.log
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12:34 ZoffixWin And BTW, I see a like 3 modules failing. Inline::Ruby seems to have a wrong URL too
12:35 ChoHag I have no idea if that even works. It just looks right.
12:35 ZoffixWin :/
12:35 ZoffixWin I'd be suspicious of any PR that includes "# Eww" in it
12:36 ChoHag Yeah I considered wiping out my fork and recreating it after I realised I'd not taken that out.
12:36 ZoffixWin heh
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12:36 ChoHag But that's just too much work.
12:37 ZoffixWin *fix*; git commit; git rebase -i HEAD~2; change last commit to 's' to squash it; comment out the commit message of the last commit; git push -f
12:37 ZoffixWin done
12:37 ChoHag I'd already pushed to github when I saw it.
12:37 ChoHag And besides, I sort of suspect/hope that the variable name and its potential contents will change.
12:37 nine ChoHag: left some feedback on the PR
12:39 nine ZoffixWin: 'f' for fixup squashes the commits and throws away the last commit's message
12:39 ZoffixWin Learned something new!
12:40 nine ChoHag: we're in the post-christmas world now. We really should try to avoid adding stuff that we expect to change.
12:40 nine Btw. ChoHag++ for putting code where his mouth is :)
12:40 ZoffixWin :D
12:42 ChoHag Hmm. I'd like to have the 'none' option, for completeness more than practicality, but it looks like it'll have to be outside that precompile method.
12:42 ZoffixWin Well, it's 7:42AM, 2016. New year. New me. The possibilities are endless.
12:43 * ZoffixWin does a shot of vodka.
12:43 ZoffixWin Ah, yeah
12:43 ZoffixWin Oh, I wanted to write a factoid bot for use in here
12:43 nine ChoHag: maybe method may-precomp is the right place for the none option?
12:44 _mg_ joined #perl6
12:46 ChoHag Just trying to work out why $i must be less than 3 now.
12:46 ChoHag Or does $i just really like that comment?
12:46 Zoffix joined #perl6
12:48 ChoHag Right I'm going to, again, push untested code but before I do - thoughts on the variable name and its potential contents?
12:48 ChoHag I guess I could give it a compile too.
12:48 Zoffix I'd change 'read-only' to something else
12:49 Zoffix to something 'no-new'
12:49 nine ChoHag: #0 ($i = 1 afterwards) is CompUnit::PrecompilationRepository::None, #1 ($i = 2 afterwards) is the first real PrecompilationRepository, #2 ($i = 3 afterwards) would be an additional repository after a use lib
12:50 nine ChoHag: please do a compile, make test, make spectest, panda bootstrap and installation of a module before a pull request. That's my usual routine before any commit.
12:51 ChoHag Yeah I only did it that fast to show that I'm not just all talk.
12:51 ChoHag As a sysadmin I'm not overly fond of developers who don't test their work.
12:51 Zoffix ChoHag++
12:51 _Vi joined #perl6
12:56 dalek ecosystem: c2e5bbf | (Zoffix Znet)++ | META.list:
12:56 dalek ecosystem: Fix incorrect URL to Inline::Ruby META
12:56 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/c2e5bbfe6f
12:57 |Tux| csv-ip5xs        50000    17.709    17.599
12:57 |Tux| test             50000    22.474    22.364
12:57 |Tux| test-t           50000    12.502    12.391
12:58 ChoHag Interesting. Parse error...
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13:17 Zoffix lizmat, "I concur with timotimo, this is ENOTABUG, but a WAT!".... what's a WAT?
13:17 Zoffix (on https://rt.perl.org/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=127091) I did reject it BTW
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13:35 moritz public service announcement: I'm going to do an OS-upgrade on irclog.perlgeek.de
13:35 moritz I don't expect a big downtime, but who knows?
13:35 ChoHag Good luck.
13:35 ChoHag From what to what?
13:36 moritz ChoHag: Wheezy -> Jessie (Debian)
13:37 ChoHag Ooh be careful with that one.
13:37 moritz why?
13:37 ChoHag Make sure the full reboot works. Their "lets replace the init system of all things" didn't go entirely as smoothly as they hoped.
13:37 moritz I've upgraded a few systems so far, with little hiccups
13:37 moritz right, full reboot required
13:38 ChoHag Me too. I just recall apt complaining once and/or init breaking.
13:39 ChoHag Memory is vague, I fixed it as it happened and I object to systemd on moral grounds so did whatever was necessary to ensure it didn't get installed.
13:39 skyl4rk joined #perl6
13:39 ChoHag Straight dist-upgrade in a 'normal' environment may well be OK.
13:39 Arrowhead joined #perl6
13:41 Zoffix Man, this is just sad http://blog.randi.io/2015/12/31/the-developer-formerly-known-as-freebsdgirl/
13:41 Zoffix Do we have a Code of Conduct (better labeled as Standard of Conduct)?
13:41 moritz iirc my main paint point in previous upgrades was that the new apache version that comes with jessie is a bit backwards incompatible, regarding authorization
13:42 ChoHag Debian are slipping in general recently.
13:42 ChoHag Bit off more than they could chew, IMO.
13:42 FROGGS joined #perl6
13:43 moritz well, the apache change isn't their fault, that's just upstream
13:44 ChoHag Right, but if Debian were smaller there'd be more resource to make the necessary compat layers, as they used to.
13:46 ChoHag Zoffix: "25 bloggers like this."
13:46 ChoHag I think that may not be the most appropriate phrase...
13:46 Zoffix heh
13:47 lucasb joined #perl6
13:49 ChoHag nine: Git push to my branch restarted the same pull request.
13:49 ChoHag This time, compile & tests were performed. Spectest's ongoing but it's slow and I don't forsee it impacting it at all.
13:50 ChoHag I'm also still not entirely happy with the variable name/contents though I can't put my finger on why. Not really my department though.
13:53 Zoffix m: my Str $x; say $x.chars
13:53 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value of type Str in string context␤Any of .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can stringify undefined things, if needed.  in block <unit> at /tmp/urzgOkLlW8 line 1␤0␤»
13:54 Zoffix FWIW, the { length $undefined-thing }triggering a warning in Perl 5 was annoying enough that on newer versions that was made to return an undef.
13:54 Zoffix m: my Str $x; my $z = $x.chars;
13:54 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value of type Str in string context␤Any of .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can stringify undefined things, if needed.  in block <unit> at /tmp/c4Uc4lINIW line 1␤»
13:54 Zoffix and maybe that error is LTA :/
13:55 nige1 joined #perl6
13:56 ChoHag That might not be The Right Thing on objects which aren't strings per se but can be stringified.
13:57 ChoHag Personally I prefer my compilers to shout at me when I'm doing stupid things.
13:58 Zoffix m: say so ''
13:58 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«False␤»
13:58 Zoffix m: say so '0'
13:58 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«True␤»
13:58 ShimmerFairy The only thing I don't like about that message is the list of suggestions, for some reason. Particularly the .say suggestion, since it's very unlike the others (and it doesn't stringify things exactly, except as a side effect of it printing to stdout, IIRC)
13:58 xpen joined #perl6
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13:59 Zoffix Hm, maybe the fact that '0' is False in P5 is why the length thing is a thing.
13:59 Zoffix Never mind my complaint :P
13:59 moritz also I'm not sure if "uninitialized value" is a good expression. Shouldn't it be "type object"?
14:11 ilbot3 joined #perl6
14:11 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
14:11 ChoHag Went well then?
14:12 moritz nned to do the reboot now
14:12 Skarsnik joined #perl6
14:12 moritz bbl :-)
14:27 ilbot3 joined #perl6
14:27 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
14:27 moritz brrt: same to you
14:28 lucasb brrt++, thanks for the libuv update initiative.
14:28 _nadim llfourn: no doc for whenever, and it is not in control flow either
14:28 lucasb brrt: I'm waiting the merge, to build a new rakudo :)
14:28 moritz logger running again; it turned out I didn't have an init script to start it
14:28 llfourn _nadim: http://docs.perl6.org/language/concurrency
14:29 ChoHag Yay systemd!
14:29 ZoffixWin joined #perl6
14:29 llfourn it's there but it needs a heading. If you want to do that for us it would be great.
14:30 brrt yw lucasb :-)
14:30 brrt what platform are you on actually?
14:30 ChoHag moritz: I make it a habit now to reboot servers after every change, however minor.
14:31 lucasb me? I'm on x86-32bit linux... but, sorry, I haven't tested the libuv branch.
14:31 ChoHag Not rebooting servers is for specialist applications, or teenagers with peni^Wuptime issues.
14:31 spider-mario joined #perl6
14:31 lucasb but libuv would have to be updated sooner or later... so, it's better to find the fallout now :)
14:32 _nadim llfourn: I can't Promise, bad pun, right now as I need to wrap my head around this and use it. but I will eventually (after my move to another town and the build of the ground of my summer house, not too long)
14:32 brrt no problem of course :-)
14:33 llfourn _nadim: cool nw. Good luck building your house!
14:33 Skarsnik brrt, can you give me quick intrusction so I can test your branch? x)
14:34 brrt it's master now
14:34 brrt you can just ehm...
14:34 brrt hmm
14:34 brrt can rakudobrew build with the latest moar?
14:34 brrt i dunno what the instructions are for the bleeding edge
14:34 brrt i compile moar 'by hand'
14:35 lucasb would a moar & nqp bump be too trouble?
14:35 lucasb this way, more people will test
14:36 _nadim llfourn: just the basement of the summer house right now :),, but of course I went in the repo and thought "Arff, I do it now"
14:36 _nadim are the docs in another repo?
14:36 brrt no, don't want to do that
14:36 brrt suppose it's broken
14:36 llfourn _nadim: https://github.com/perl6/doc
14:36 brrt then we're going to tell all the people 'checkout this broken moarvm'
14:36 brrt well, their computers
14:37 nige1 joined #perl6
14:37 llfourn _nadim: take your time understanding it first and then you can put the heading in the appropriate place :)
14:38 llfourn _nadim: and just noticing react is not searchable either
14:39 Emeric joined #perl6
14:39 masak ZoffixWin: a WAT is a correct-by-spec feature that's somewhere between the confusing and indefensible.
14:39 ZoffixWin ah
14:39 masak ZoffixWin: it originates from this video: https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat
14:39 ZoffixWin Makes me think of http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/Wat-Meme-Old-Lady-Face-02.jpg
14:39 lucasb example of a WAT: "$()" is *not* a itemized empty list :)
14:39 virtualsue joined #perl6
14:40 masak ZoffixWin: a saying here on #perl6 goes "every DWIM behavior has an equal and opposite WAT". lucasb's example is a good one.
14:40 ZoffixWin I remember that talk lol
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14:44 _nadim llfourn: is there a glossary somewhere, I always have those in more important projects.
14:45 ZoffixWin S99 i think
14:45 moritz https://design.perl6.org/S99.html
14:45 ZoffixWin http://design.perl6.org/S99.html
14:45 * ZoffixWin is too slow
14:45 masak ZoffixWin: I think we have a code of conduct, though not under that name. I remember ShimmerFairy++ working on it.
14:45 * ZoffixWin would love to see it
14:45 * ZoffixWin also would love to see it in /topic
14:46 ZoffixWin Makes "buddy, you're out of line, as it says in the /topic" much easier to say
14:47 masak aye
14:47 _nadim Neither react nor ahatever is in that glossary
14:47 masak ShimmerFairy: whatever happened to the CoC thing?
14:47 dalek specs: 73ea63d | moritz++ | S99-glossary.pod:
14:47 dalek specs: S99: Correct heading level
14:47 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/73ea63dc52
14:47 masak _nadim: well volunteered!
14:48 moritz _nadim: react is a syntactic construct; I don't believe it belongs into the glossary, but in the normal documentation
14:48 llfourn it should certainly be X<> linked though
14:48 _nadim masak: llfourn cheated me into this, i must be more careful next time, he's sneaky.
14:48 moritz llfourn: well volunteered :-)
14:48 ShimmerFairy masak: somewhere in the specs repo, last I recall
14:49 llfourn moritz: I already volunteered _nadim++
14:49 moritz llfourn: well meta-volunteered :-)
14:49 ShimmerFairy lucasb: $() was supposed to be removed, since I recall people agreeing it was useless, it just didn't happen I guess.
14:49 llfourn :D
14:50 _nadim moritz: that well may be, but then I'll call it a vocabulary list, one we one goes before commiting suicide just after an exhausting doc search
14:50 lucasb ShimmerFairy: let's hope it's not in the 6.c tests, otherwise we'll have to live with it forevaaar :D
14:50 masak ZoffixWin, ShimmerFairy: found it! https://github.com/perl6/specs/blob/master/S27-perl-culture-draft.pod6
14:51 Skarsnik m: say $()
14:51 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«Use of Nil in string context  in block <unit> at /tmp/hnoGa1CuH8 line 1␤␤»
14:51 masak ZoffixWin: see what you think, especially in light of that blog post by ex-FreeBSDGirl
14:51 ShimmerFairy lucasb: it's in roast, so removal will have to be in 6.d :<
14:52 ShimmerFairy $() is $/.ast // $.Str , which I'm pretty sure no-one has used ever.
14:52 ShimmerFairy *$/.Str
14:53 _mg_ joined #perl6
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14:57 _nadim llfourn: I think whenever doc should go in the Supply class doc. And maybe react too. What I notice is that there's a lot of taps refered as if they were objects. I did search for type Tap before understanding it was "tapping a Supply"
14:58 llfourn _nadim: I don't think so. They are concurrency constructs so they should go in the concurrency doc IMO.
15:00 moritz supplies are concurrency constructs
15:00 moritz I'd be fine with either, as long as there's a cross reference
15:01 _nadim llfourn: then a list of all tings that can tap into a supply should be put there too, making the concurency document a reference document for those, my understanding, naive and naissant, was that the concurency doc was  more "generic"
15:03 llfourn _nadim: I think everything to do with concurrency should be put there so yep
15:03 nine .tell flussence precompilation doesn't care about $*CWD. It only writes files to one of the precompilation repositories contained in modules repositories. If you use lib 'foo/lib'; we will write into foo/lib/.precomp. Without a -I, PERL6LIB or "use lib", we write into ~/.perl6/
15:03 yoleaux nine: I'll pass your message to flussence.
15:04 ZoffixWin masak, that's a nice document. The one thing I see missing from it is what to do in the exact ex-FreeBSDGirl's situation: what to do if someone attacks/harasses you repeatedly. The "handle the troll with kindness" is a nice sentiment, but I see that NOT working often enough. And I not quite sure this suffices: "your best course of action would be to ask the rest
15:04 ZoffixWin of the community for help. (Lost of times, the Perl 6 community will already be
15:04 ZoffixWin helping with the discussion!)". I think asking "the rest of the community" for help might be pretty difficult when you're being attacked on the basis of who you are. If someone's harrasing you in /msg, saying you're worthless contributor because you are $whatever would make it difficult to address that harrasement in the channel in fear that $whatever is actually a concern for being a worthless contributor. IMO, there should be some body one could
15:04 ZoffixWin contact in private in case of severe harassment/abuse
15:05 ZoffixWin I've seen posts arguing against using Perl 6 because Audrey Tang changed gender. How do you bring up attacks like that in the channel?
15:05 ZoffixWin Anyway... those are my two cents.
15:05 * ZoffixWin resumes drinking and playing Warframe
15:05 Skarsnik lol
15:06 pmurias joined #perl6
15:07 nine .tell ugexe the modules architecture was not designed just for panda at all. We cannot use the precompilation files generated on install most of the time because right now we err on the side of "better precompile too often than use outdated files". mst++ is pushing in a direction that lets us use the installation files more freely, but it's tricky.
15:07 yoleaux nine: I'll pass your message to ugexe.
15:09 El_Che tadzik: there?
15:09 ChoHag nine: Spectests pass on the latest change. If there's still something better than testing with ~~ I'm all for it.
15:10 ZoffixWin eq?
15:11 timotimo oh hey moritz
15:11 timotimo can you reset my password on hack.p6c.org? i must have somehow misvalued it ...
15:12 mcmillhj joined #perl6
15:12 El_Che timotimo: don't you log in with a ssh key?
15:13 timotimo El_Che: yeah, i do. but sudo wants my password :)
15:13 El_Che timotimo: ah you have root, ok
15:13 pmurias joined #perl6
15:13 asie joined #perl6
15:13 timotimo in theory i do :)
15:13 timotimo i'm going to kill jdv's long-running process
15:13 llfourn joined #perl6
15:14 pmurias ZoffixWin: re freebsdgirl, having google'ed that a lot of people are claming (and showing proof) that she was a troll herself  and just got caught up in a troll war
15:16 El_Che timotimo: done
15:16 timotimo thank you
15:16 virtualsue pmurias: yes 'they' will say that
15:17 ZoffixWin seen it. Doesn't change the fact there are existing barriers to participation, otherwise I wouldn't end up going to tech meetings with ~40 people and zero women in them -_-
15:17 raiph joined #perl6
15:17 virtualsue if you're treating trolls with kindness, i'd only ask to make sure the trollee (alleged or otherwise) gets the same  treatment and latitude
15:17 El_Che it's difficult to know they exact circumstancesof each case, but you can be sure that there are a lot of poisonous people out there
15:18 virtualsue i kind of despair of the day when i need to publish a code of conduct for London PM and am resigned to doing one ahead of time 'soon'
15:19 El_Che reading latest Eric Raymond's texts proofs that OSS does not mean being nice (or sane)
15:19 virtualsue and nobody here needs to tell me about barriers to participation in tech for women ;-)
15:20 masak El_Che: don't read the recent texts by Eric Raymond. :/
15:20 huf far too much attention is given to the contents of a code of conduct (or its existence). and nowhere near enough to the fact that the abbreviation is "coc"
15:20 ZoffixWin huf++
15:20 huf i hope the next community guideline related thing someone invents will abbreviate to "dic"
15:20 timotimo
15:21 El_Che masak: it has kind of the same attraction of rotten.com at time. You know you shouldn't look,...
15:21 [ptc] huf: mst brings that up in his talks.  That's why for perl it's a Statement of Conduct (iirc)
15:21 huf El_Che: :D
15:21 huf [ptc]: yes, i've seen people side-step it in very obvious ways
15:21 masak and in the specs repo, it's just called S27 :)
15:21 ZoffixWin :P
15:22 huf hm, that's actually the best i've seen so far
15:22 timotimo socks are all right
15:22 El_Che I proposed this minimal COC: https://gist.github.com/nxadm/13c4817dd1b4b792a99f . At the end of the day it doesn't come to legal rules, but what the community sees as accetable or not
15:23 pdcawley joined #perl6
15:23 Skarsnik someone can close? https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=125706 x)
15:24 timotimo Skarsnik: please point out a commit id to rakudo and roast respectively that implement that stuff and i'll close it for you
15:24 jdv79 timotimo: i didnt notice.  thanks.
15:24 yoleaux 03:38Z <timotimo> jdv79: please look into that process that's trying to install v5 and somehow eating 100% cpu
15:24 nine ChoHag: I usually prefer // '' to make it clear in the code that I expect this to be undefined.
15:24 jdv79 that has to be from the 21st or so
15:25 pmurias virtualsue: I have been only to Perl conferencess so I can't really judge how the things in other communities are
15:25 timotimo jdv79: i just killed it for you a few minutes before you arrived
15:26 jdv79 cool
15:26 Skarsnik timotimo, https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/661 https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/532c11abbcc8409a03d4a585296149f94c219e08
15:27 bitmap joined #perl6
15:27 timotimo thanks
15:28 ZoffixWin pmurias, in some places, it's pretty disturbing. Spot a single non-white, non-male person on this ReactJS conf pic and I'll give you $10: https://twitter.com/ReactiveConf/status/661496391773102081
15:30 nine pmurias: even _if_ FreeBSDgirl was a troll which I highly doubt, the FreeBSD community would have had a troll in their midst for 13 years and invited the troll to give a talk at their conference. That would still mean, they have a problem with accepting trolls.
15:30 nine Doesn't change the outcome at all.
15:30 El_Che well, I find the term "white" funny in a USA context.
15:30 El_Che it mixes ethnic and culture
15:30 ZoffixWin eh, skip the white term... Find any non-male person in that pic :P
15:30 El_Che e.g. hispanic as a term while there are blond-blue-eyed-hispanics and african-black-hispanics
15:30 El_Che so silly
15:31 Skarsnik lol the reactjs pic, they all look the same x)
15:32 pmurias ZoffixWin: where I live that's what all the programmers look like
15:32 ZoffixWin Skarsnik, not so! Some have different haircuts! :)
15:32 ZoffixWin pmurias, where is that?
15:32 pmurias ZoffixWin: Poland
15:32 ZoffixWin pmurias, you guys have no women in Poland?
15:33 ZoffixWin :)
15:33 ZoffixWin it's the problem that all programmers look like that :)
15:33 * ZoffixWin may be drunk to IRC now and leaves before they say something stupid
15:33 ZoffixWin *too drunk
15:34 mscha joined #perl6
15:34 Skarsnik meh, it's fine
15:34 dalek perl6-roast-data: cadec8e | coke++ | / (7 files):
15:34 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
15:34 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/cadec8edb2
15:34 mscha m: say "Happy { [+]1..63 }!";
15:34 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/c6OujqDTNc␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/c6OujqDTNc:1␤------> 3say "Happy { [+]7⏏1..63 }!";␤    expecting any of:␤        infix␤        infix stopper␤        statement end␤        statement…»
15:35 mscha m: say "Happy { [+] 1..63 }!";
15:35 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«Happy 2016!␤»
15:35 timotimo i'm a long-haired programmer, i bring a little diversity to pictures that otherwise contain only short-haired white dudes!
15:35 nowan joined #perl6
15:36 masak m: m: class A::B {}; class C { has A::B $.ab .= new } # [RT #126975]
15:36 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not locate compile-time value for symbol A::B␤»
15:36 masak m: class A::B {}; class C { has A::B $.ab .= new } # [RT #126975]
15:36 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not locate compile-time value for symbol A::B␤»
15:36 masak m: m: say "OH HAI"
15:36 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
15:36 masak m: m: m: say "OH HAI"
15:36 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/qsMOe0UnVC␤Redeclaration of symbol m␤at /tmp/qsMOe0UnVC:1␤------> 3m: m:7⏏5 say "OH HAI"␤»
15:37 masak m: constant foo = 42; foo: say "OH HAI"
15:37 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/DuZG1IEVNq␤Redeclaration of symbol foo␤at /tmp/DuZG1IEVNq:1␤------> 3constant foo = 42; foo:7⏏5 say "OH HAI"␤»
15:37 lucasb m: a: b: c: say 'hi'  # multiple labels shouldn't work
15:37 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«hi␤»
15:38 lucasb ok, maybe they should, there's nothing wrong with wanting to have multiple labels pointing to the same statement
15:38 masak I think there is. it's unnecessary and probably a thinko.
15:39 masak in fact, is there even a use case for putting labels on non-loops?
15:39 masak oh, `goto`, I guess
15:40 pmurias joined #perl6
15:40 timotimo that's the common case, yeah :P
15:41 pmurias ZoffixWin: it's a mostly male dominated profession, and from what I have seen it's mostly the case of women not choosing to do it rather then being driven out
15:41 virtualsue just fyi I founded  a women's programming group in London focusing on another language, simply because the gender ratio is even more lop-sided in that area
15:42 virtualsue it's not nearly as bad in Perl
15:43 * virtualsue gets back to work
15:44 El_Che virtualsue: isn't it because the language is newer and thus could benefit from cultural advances?
15:44 El_Che advances sounds badly
15:44 nine pmurias: the question pretty much always has been, _why_ they seem to not choose it (at large). As it's an extremely complex topic with probably thousands of influences, I've become quite careful of drawing conclusions and simply deal with what's obvious and which I can acutally influence.
15:44 virtualsue yes, pretty much that
15:45 cygx joined #perl6
15:45 El_Che perl6 has a chance there, let's hope
15:45 cygx o/
15:45 regreg joined #perl6
15:46 virtualsue when numbers are "critically low", it's rather easier to get more of $minority interested when they have some segregation
15:46 pmurias joined #perl6
15:47 cygx pmurias: regarding female participation in open source projects particularly, from the statistics I've seen (might be out of date now), they used to be a factor of ten down from the general percentage in the business
15:47 cygx I do believe this indicates 'cultural' problems
15:48 blub it makes a lot of sense
15:48 mscha m: my $planet = 'World'; my $html = "<b>Hello</b>, <i>$planet</i>!"; # very annoying
15:48 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«Type Str does not support associative indexing.␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/UfjZTrCCyq line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/UfjZTrCCyq line 1␤␤»
15:48 El_Che virtualsue: a good start, even when not being explicitly looking for diversity, is just being friendly. It's awful when projects turn people by being rude just because someone does have a phd on the subject
15:49 dalek tablets: 372a05c | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/ (2 files):
15:49 dalek tablets: pred and succ work not only on Num
15:49 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/372a05cc28
15:51 timotimo hm. i should continue my work cleaning out the tpf wiki
15:51 brrt joined #perl6
15:51 brrt messages?
15:52 El_Che timotimo++
15:53 El_Che the docs there are confusing to say the least :)
15:54 timotimo i don't know of a good place to link from the old "perl 6 executive statement"
15:54 timotimo summary*
15:55 mscha m: say '42 is a power of 2' if 42 ~~ 1,2,4...*;
15:55 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«42 is a power of 2␤»
15:56 wamba joined #perl6
15:56 wamba p6: {}.push: <a =\> l a b a v a a b>;
15:56 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: ( no output )
15:57 RabidGravy joined #perl6
15:57 wamba p6: say {}.push: <a =\> l a b a v a a b>;
15:57 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«a => [=> b], b => a, l => a, v => a␤»
15:57 RabidGravy RARR!
15:58 timotimo yo RabidGravy
15:58 timotimo back so soon?
15:58 nine .tell ShimmerFairy please tell me exactly what the git commands are that bring commits from branch curli to branch nom by solely using "git rebase". When you can do that, you may call me ignorant as much as you want.
15:58 yoleaux nine: I'll pass your message to ShimmerFairy.
15:59 RabidGravy well, it's cold outside :) But I saw the sea, had beer and got some south asian snack food so all is good
15:59 timotimo nine: i think that's what the --onto flag does
16:00 nine timotimo: nope
16:00 timotimo you're right
16:00 RabidGravy yeah I don't think you can do that directly
16:00 RabidGravy it's cherry pick and then rebase
16:01 [Coke] timotimo: when in doubt, link to perl6.org, I guess (for wiki cleanup)
16:01 nine timotimo: the thing is, I do actually know two ways to get the commits from the branch onto nom without using "git merge". ShimmerFairy doesn't seem to, otherwise they would have pointed that out in the blog post intead of again telling something wrong. But I'm the ignorant one who doesn't understand git...
16:01 timotimo [Coke]: well, i was hoping i could find a nice spot to point people to for most pages
16:03 nige1 joined #perl6
16:03 RabidGravy nine, I'm sure you understand git better than I do
16:04 nine RabidGravy: if you think that, then I'd be happy to help if I can :)
16:05 RabidGravy I get by and for everything else there's google
16:05 RabidGravy :)
16:07 ZoffixWin joined #perl6
16:07 ZoffixWin joined #perl6
16:07 frankjh joined #perl6
16:08 nine .tell ShimmerFairy please tell me what incentive I have for helping you in any way, when all I get from your direction is repeated public attacks on my person? Where is the fun in that? Why should I invest a single minute, when it makes me feel worse than just ignoring you as best as possible?
16:08 yoleaux nine: I'll pass your message to ShimmerFairy.
16:08 RabidGravy Hey I've worked for fairly large organisations in the last ten years that were still using CVS
16:09 RabidGravy nine, because we love you :)
16:09 ZoffixWin m: my $planet = 'World'; my $html = q:s"<b>Hello</b>, <i>$planet</i>!";
16:09 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«Type Str does not support associative indexing.␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/FR11LWMVwK line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/FR11LWMVwK line 1␤␤»
16:09 nowan joined #perl6
16:09 ZoffixWin hm.. shouldn't this NOT give that error due to my not interpolating :h ?
16:10 timotimo when was feather taken off the 'net?
16:10 ZoffixWin oh, it'd be %foo<bar> anyway.. never mind.. Perl5-ism
16:11 Actualeyes left #perl6
16:11 ZoffixWin m: my $planet = 'World'; my $html = "<b>Hello</b>, <i>{$planet}</i>!"; say $html # mscha, one way to get around it
16:11 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«<b>Hello</b>, <i>World</i>!␤»
16:12 pmurias joined #perl6
16:12 nine RabidGravy: :)
16:13 timotimo m: my $planet = 'World'; my $html = "<b>Hello</b>, <i>$planet\</i>!"; say $html; # another way
16:13 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«<b>Hello</b>, <i>World</i>!␤»
16:13 nine What I really cannot figure out for the life of mine is, what ShimmerFairy thinks such blog posts would accomplish. All it takes for me to invest hours and hours trying to fix issues with my code is a half sentence somewhere in the backlog.
16:13 timotimo btw, i imagine we could catch this in some cases in the optimizer and complain/warn early
16:13 ZoffixWin FWIW, even if we stipulate fuckups were made, what would crying about them in a blog post would accomplish?
16:13 bpmedley joined #perl6
16:13 nine There is no need at all, not the sightest to pull out the big cannons and write pages and pages.
16:14 nine So now that we have established, that getting me to fix things is not the goal, what the hell is?
16:14 timotimo moritz: if there are no tuits left to handle perl-6.de, maybe it'd be better to decommission it?
16:15 dalek doc: 2e6a2a5 | (Steve Mynott)++ | bin/p6doc:
16:15 dalek doc: Improve "p6doc -f" output
16:15 dalek doc: Add back Type:: prefix since this is used elsewhere by p6doc
16:15 dalek doc: Strip "routine" and "method" from results
16:15 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/2e6a2a5240
16:16 * masak hugs nine
16:17 * ZoffixWin hugs ShimmerFairy
16:17 masak nine: haven't read ShimmerFairy's new attempt at ranting less yet -- but you have my support and encouragement. please don't be discouraged by long blog posts!
16:17 frankjh Hi, I am trying use perl6 and  make a module for a native library. Building seems to work, however the shared library does not get loaded during 'make test'. How do I set that up?
16:17 Skarsnik hm, you can't use a field herited with $!field-name?
16:17 ZoffixWin nine, right. As I've stated earlier, perl6 got a very noticable boost in speed due to your work, so don't be discouraged :)
16:18 Skarsnik frankjh, do you have an error message?
16:18 stmuk_ nine++ # precomp had to released
16:18 ZoffixWin Skarsnik, inherited? No, don't think so. The private-things don't get passed down to subclasses IIRC
16:19 Skarsnik m: class A { has $.foo is rw = "Hello"}; class B is A { method bar( say $!foo)}; my B $b =.new; $b.bar();
16:19 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/5ZohQQh0FQ␤Invalid typename 'say' in parameter declaration.␤at /tmp/5ZohQQh0FQ:1␤------> 3"Hello"}; class B is A { method bar( say7⏏5 $!foo)}; my B $b =.new; $b.bar();␤»
16:19 ZoffixWin m: class Foo { has $!bar = 42; }; class Bar is Foo { method moo { say $!bar }; }; Bar.new.moo
16:19 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/dSWp8Gkwle␤Attribute $!bar not declared in class Bar␤at /tmp/dSWp8Gkwle:1␤------> 3Bar is Foo { method moo { say $!bar }; }7⏏5; Bar.new.moo␤    expecting any of:␤        horizontal whitespace␤»
16:19 ChoHag joined #perl6
16:20 timotimo Skarsnik: private fields are private. they don't get inherited.
16:20 Skarsnik m: class A { has $.foo is rw = "Hello"}; class B is A { method bar{ say $!foo}}; my B $b =.new; $b.bar();
16:20 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/nCieNDuVGK␤Attribute $!foo not declared in class B␤at /tmp/nCieNDuVGK:1␤------> 3; class B is A { method bar{ say $!foo}}7⏏5; my B $b =.new; $b.bar();␤    expecting any of:␤        horizontal wh…»
16:20 RabidGravy frankjh, is it a library you made or an installed on?
16:20 frankjh Error message is "Cannot locate native library 'libfoo.so'" ... No such file or doirectory
16:20 Skarsnik I need to use foo with . ?
16:20 timotimo yes
16:20 frankjh libfoo.so has been built: perl Configure.pl6;make ;
16:21 RabidGravy ah
16:21 Skarsnik You probably need to give the path to NC
16:21 RabidGravy check out the Inline::Perl5 source
16:21 Skarsnik by default it will search in the path dlopen/win32eqv use
16:21 ShimmerFairy nine: if you give my post a second read, you'll see that I do in fact outline exactly why I've been writing frustrated posts. And part of it is that IRC doesn't let me express my thoughts as verbosely. Apologies for desiring a better medium to transcribe my thoughts.
16:21 yoleaux 15:58Z <nine> ShimmerFairy: please tell me exactly what the git commands are that bring commits from branch curli to branch nom by solely using "git rebase". When you can do that, you may call me ignorant as much as you want.
16:21 yoleaux 16:08Z <nine> ShimmerFairy: please tell me what incentive I have for helping you in any way, when all I get from your direction is repeated public attacks on my person? Where is the fun in that? Why should I invest a single minute, when it makes me feel worse than just ignoring you as best as possible?
16:22 Skarsnik frankjh, try with is native('./libfoo')
16:22 Skarsnik or './foo'
16:22 nine ShimmerFairy: so we're still just at venting frustration?
16:23 Skarsnik timotimo, the issue with $.foo is that I will not be able to write in the attribute if it's not rw?
16:23 RabidGravy for reference I vent frustration by drinking beer and making noisy music
16:24 _mg_ joined #perl6
16:24 virtualsue RabidGravy++
16:24 ShimmerFairy nine: Like mentioned, I tried being as reasonable as possible in my latest post, doing my best to explain better why I'm frustrated (rather than just being frustrated). If you want to continue being a jerk after that, I don't feel it's my problem anymore.
16:24 virtualsue Hey ShimmerFairy, enough with the name calling
16:24 Skarsnik Can you talk about this un private maybe? x)
16:24 virtualsue Or just not talk about it abusively
16:24 frankjh Skarsnik: so add a relative path to is native ('foo')? Relative to what?
16:24 masak it's "CURLI", not "CURI", right?
16:25 ShimmerFairy the branch pointer's named curi, IIRC
16:25 nine masak: CURLI used to be CompUnitRep::Local::Installation. Then there was a curli branch for reworking the module stuff, and now there's CompUnit::Repository::Installation which can be abbreviated to CURI
16:26 Skarsnik frankjh, I am not sure how it work stuff you build yourself and provide, you probably need to use %RESOURCESS or something like that
16:26 masak ShimmerFairy: re "if you want to continue being a jerk" -- I don't know if you notice it yourself, but you're crossing a line here, *one you set up* in S27.
16:26 frankjh Ah ok
16:27 masak ShimmerFairy: the one where you discuss the topic at hand, and don't do personal attacks just because you're frustrated.
16:27 ShimmerFairy Point is, a rushed for Christmas branched offer me little (if any) benefits and provided show-stopping bugs, of course I'm gonna be a bit pissed about said branch.
16:27 RabidGravy frankjh, it's build the module into ./resources
16:27 masak ShimmerFairy: I just re-read S27. it's a good read.
16:27 nine ShimmerFairy: maybe we can use this positively as a testcase for S27 as we clearly have a conflict that involves public name calling and more.
16:27 Skarsnik frankjh, ask nine x)
16:28 ShimmerFairy masak: well, I said "jerk" because that's how I've felt nine's behavior towards me has been (similarly as my more emotionally charged blog posts towards him), not out of any desire to engage in name-calling
16:28 virtualsue ShimmerFairy: your name calling is indefensible *full stop*
16:28 timotimo Skarsnik: i think the point about private fields is that you can freely refactor and change the class without breaking users of that class
16:28 masak ShimmerFairy: I'm not going to ask you to pull down this post -- but I think it, and your current behavior on-channel, are not as constructive as they could be.
16:28 ShimmerFairy (so yes, poor phrasing on my part in the sentence involving "jerk")
16:29 RabidGravy frankjh, as an alternative to asking nine take a look at https://github.com/jonathanstowe/p6-Sys-Lastlog
16:29 timotimo Skarsnik: note, however, that you can access private attributes pulled in by a role, for example, from the composing class; perhaps that helps you?
16:29 frankjh RabidGravy: Thanks for the pointer
16:30 nine ShimmerFairy: if your goal is constructive critizism, your posts really should focus on _what should we do in the future_. Reiterating what went wrong in the past and how it did hurt you is neither constructive, nor will it help all that much.
16:30 masak +1
16:30 nine ShimmerFairy: you could for example line out guidelines for how such feature branches should be handled. Where calls for review should be posted, what should be tested, how we should decide when a branch is ready.
16:30 ShimmerFairy masak: what really sucks is that the latest post is me really trying to be good about it. I thought today "hm, I want to follow up on my last post, and I don't feel so emotional over it today. It would be good for a more decent post today"
16:31 nine ShimmerFairy: that would help tremendously avoiding any discomfort in the future.
16:31 masak ShimmerFairy: if you make a new attempt, and the feedback is "yeah, still too aggressive and non-constructive", don't just *complain* about you trying!
16:31 dalek doc: 749e16c | (Steve Mynott)++ | bin/p6doc:
16:31 dalek doc: Display things which are 'Cool' so 'p6doc -f codes' for example works
16:31 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/749e16c3c9
16:31 masak ShimmerFairy: instead, try to listen, and adapt.
16:31 RabidGravy the going to the pub instead of typing helps too
16:31 Skarsnik m: my %h; my %t; %h<foo> %t; # that a weird error
16:31 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/gY4MTk1qJA␤Undeclared routine:␤    t used at line 1␤␤»
16:32 ShimmerFairy I did think about a "what to do in the future post", but I think I felt I wouldn't do a very good job on that kind of post either :/
16:32 masak Skarsnik: it parses it as `$h<foo> % t`
16:32 sjn \o
16:32 masak sjn: o/
16:32 ShimmerFairy RabidGravy: not when it would be both illegal for me and not at all in my area of interests
16:32 zakharyas joined #perl6
16:32 nine ShimmerFairy: even though your tone is less emotional in your latest blog post, the contents is still the same. Your still just talking about what it cost you and how wrong the actions were that no one can change now. They're done. It's happened. It won't help if you write about them 10 more times.
16:32 sjn happy new year, #perl6 \o/
16:32 Skarsnik oh right masak
16:32 masak Skarsnik: but I agree, it's confusing :)
16:33 Skarsnik I missed a ; on the previous line
16:33 _Vi joined #perl6
16:33 Skarsnik RabidGravy, you can document that somewhere? maybe in the module part or NC
16:34 nine ShimmerFairy: if you feel you cannot do a constructive post about the future, simply don't post at all. That said: even if you fail at creating sensible guidelines and post them anyway, I can guarantee you that the results will still be much better than your previous posts.
16:34 masak ShimmerFairy: "Thanks for breaking my project to make precompilation and stuff work. Really appreciate it. I didn’t really want to work on it anyway." -- that's passive-aggressive.
16:34 FROGGS joined #perl6
16:34 nine ShimmerFairy: because it's constructive. And construvie behavior invites construcitve response.
16:34 lucasb http://i.imgur.com/mK8xGw2.jpg
16:34 masak ShimmerFairy: I wonder how or who you think you're helping by doing this.
16:35 RabidGravy I actually went out and fixed all the things.
16:35 masak lucasb: good advice. thanks. :)
16:36 RabidGravy lucasb++
16:36 nine /win 32
16:36 RabidGravy or I'll release the ponies
16:37 Skarsnik Yay ponies
16:37 * masak thought those had been put out to pasture long ago
16:40 ShimmerFairy I'll try to be more constructive in the future, but god I would love it if just once I could share an unpopular opinion or viewpoint here and have at least one person see some of the good in what I'm trying to say. In any case, now I feel like shit and it's time for bed.
16:40 ChoHag wtf? Why is something flashing?
16:41 flussence because win32!
16:41 yoleaux 12:05Z <nine> flussence: if you want to play around with a SQLite based CompUnit::Repository, now's as good a time as any. Maybe https://github.com/niner/CompUnit-Repository-Panda can inspire you
16:41 yoleaux 15:03Z <nine> flussence: precompilation doesn't care about $*CWD. It only writes files to one of the precompilation repositories contained in modules repositories. If you use lib 'foo/lib'; we will write into foo/lib/.precomp. Without a -I, PERL6LIB or "use lib", we write into ~/.perl6/
16:41 nine ChoHag: I seem to have missed a key in the key combo for Find... and didn't notice the ctrl+f character in the input line
16:42 ChoHag But irssi should be stripping those.
16:43 masak ShimmerFairy: there's a clear difference between an unpopular opinion and http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2016-01-01#i_11815276
16:43 ChoHag Maybe it doesn't strip, but also doesn't log, literal control characters.
16:43 timotimo oof. slogging through the old perl6 wiki is much more strenuous than it has any right to be ...
16:43 RabidGravy I've come to the conclusion over the years that there are people who are "just like that" and what they say might piss me off sometimes but I value it for challenging me
16:44 dalek doc: 8eec870 | (Steve Mynott)++ | doc/Type/Str.pod:
16:44 dalek doc: list codes as one alternative to 'length'
16:44 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/8eec87006a
16:44 ZoffixWin .tell ShimmerFairy I can certainly see the *reasons* for your frustration and the reasons for writing that blog post, but merely attacking the person responsible for your unpopular opinion does not make anything better. Your frustrated post could easily have been a post about a choice between poorly-tested code and a release without a key feature.
16:44 yoleaux ZoffixWin: I'll pass your message to ShimmerFairy.
16:46 pmurias masak: do you know when jnthn will be back to #perl6? (I'm assuming he is on well deserved post release vacaction ;)
16:46 Skarsnik I love mistake like "Why this code did not work" 10 min later "Ok I define the sub but forget to call it ><"
16:46 * cygx notes that some bugs about &open opened by masak++ on my behalf are still open
16:47 ZoffixWin Yo dawg
16:47 cygx specifically #125170 and #125168
16:47 cygx those can go
16:47 RabidGravy woot
16:47 masak pmurias: nope, no information about that -- sorry.
16:47 virtualsue pmurias: i hope he and his wife are having a wonderful holiday season and he comes back *much later* ;-)
16:47 timotimo cygx: we usually put the commit hash of rakudo/nqp/moar and roast that fix things into the "closed" message on RT; can you dig those up?
16:49 cygx timotimo: 36f773eb010df7c6b8bf0d431d209537a6061d15
16:49 * masak would like to better be able to express the wrong assumption ShimmerFairy's post makes about how to herd open-source cats
16:49 cygx (rakudo, that is)
16:50 cygx I sympathize with ShimmerFairy to a degree
16:50 flussence I'll keep my trap shut regarding the content, but I'm grateful that we as a community are mature enough to *have* an argument, and then try to get over it afterwards, instead of resorting to waving around banhammers at the first sign of disagreement. That kind of culture tends to lead to everyone trying to “make the first shot count”.
16:50 cygx I distinctly remember thinking "dude, has anyone ever tried this"  at various times
16:51 masak flussence: banning someone didn't even occur to me. what good would that do?
16:52 flussence I've seen other languages get a little trigger happy with it: it does *no* good most of the time...
16:52 masak cygx: that's what the past *seven years* have been for me with Rakudo.
16:52 RabidGravy I think that was the point :)
16:52 masak cygx: still, I try to be constructive about it.
16:53 virtualsue there is the occasional person in some large communities who will not stop trolling despite a lot of effort to include them
16:53 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
16:53 bitmap joined #perl6
16:53 masak my closest thing to a straight-out rant blog post is probably this: http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/the-typo-trap-a-farcical-faq
16:53 masak I still re-read it sometimes and chuckle
16:53 virtualsue (in my limited experience)
16:53 RabidGravy :)
16:53 masak note that the only one mentioned in that post is jnthn++, who fixed the bug.
16:54 cygx I mean, this is not the first time this has come up
16:54 cygx it's pretty close to the reason why chromatic left huffing and puffing
16:55 virtualsue i'd say you are wonderfully even-tempered masak :-)
16:56 ugexe joined #perl6
16:56 masak virtualsue: I have an extremely dry sense of humor.
16:56 virtualsue yes, i've noticed
16:57 gfldex If you share frustration with a lover you halve it. If you share it with a stranger you double it.
16:58 masak gfldex: and open source is a bunch of (relative) strangers collaborating on something
16:58 gfldex politeness is an artform very few master, but is essential to contain bad emotions in a group of humans
16:58 RabidGravy gfldex++
16:59 RabidGravy nailed it
16:59 timotimo i think i can appreciate that ShimmerFairy wants a bit of moral/emotional compensation for the way the early branch merge - needed though it may have been - brought her at-that-time ambitions to do good work to a grinding halt
16:59 stmuk_ BTW what happened to moar serialization? I think it was in a branch
17:00 timotimo i myself would have had a rather hard time expressing my anguish(?) at that in a suitable manner
17:00 timotimo maybe it'd be a good way forward to abstract away from the text in that post; i'm not sure ShimmerFairy actually wanted to attack nine personally, for example
17:00 masak timotimo: I don't think any of that successfully expressed anguish should come at the expense of nine losing his enthusiasm to do more good work on Rakudo core.
17:01 timotimo that's true
17:01 masak timotimo: and I think it currently does, and not because nine is being unreasonable.
17:01 RabidGravy but you need to use language carefully
17:02 gfldex i would like to add that to change the collective behaviour of a group of humans bigger 1, you pretty much require massive drama. What means that politeness often gets you fuck all.
17:02 timotimo maybe what we should take away from the post is that our "calls to test branches" should be much more institutionalized
17:02 gfldex humans are hard :(
17:02 timotimo humans are squishy
17:02 masak timotimo: "much more institutionalized" -- unless you mean "automated", good luck :P
17:03 itaipu joined #perl6
17:03 gfldex squishy objects require complex packaging
17:03 virtualsue and not safe to eat
17:03 llfourn I can sympathize. I'm glad we have CURLi even if it broke stuff. But I have a project that I haven't revisited yet because it is still pretty broken after it. It's hard for me to muster up the effort to debug code that was working before.
17:03 virtualsue *in the literal sense, thanks* :-)
17:03 timotimo masak: whenever a branch needs testing, we force everybody to switch to the branch immediately for a whole day. whoever doesn't comply has to bake cookies and distribute them across perl6 devs via snail mail.
17:03 cygx also, developers shouldn't just remain in their own specialized little sandbox that they have customized to their own needs, but from time to time try to anticioate what the average user would do
17:03 cygx *anticipate
17:04 flussence .oO( any human ends up dry, tough and unpleasant if you roast them for too long )
17:04 timotimo cygx: right; like "installing rakudo into the system" is so incredibly rare, as ShimmerFairy noticed
17:05 timotimo i'm reluctant to do that, for example. and i'm also reluctant to change my ways of handling my rakudo installation
17:05 timotimo :|
17:05 flussence well, rare prior to 2015.12, and then everyone who tried discovered it didn't work...
17:06 timotimo well ... yeah
17:06 timotimo apparently it used to work before curi landed, though
17:06 timotimo anyway, i have to go AFK for a bit
17:06 flussence I've spent more time in the past month trying to get it to work than writing perl6 code :D
17:07 flussence (and I kinda succeeded!)
17:08 RabidGravy for reference I tested and fixed 29 modules and their dependencies on the 24th of december and I'm totally cool with that
17:09 RabidGravy work has to be done and I don't think I'm the centre of the universe
17:09 llfourn RabidGravy++
17:09 nine llfourn: I think I've seen a half sentence about something being broken there ;) If you elaborate on that, I may be of assistance.
17:09 stmuk_ 2016 will be different everything will be stable! :)
17:10 Skarsnik I made lot of module needed to be fixed, huhu
17:12 llfourn nine: see RT #127034, #127086 -- I think there are some I have yet to golf and no precompilation has worked around them in the mean time :)
17:12 RabidGravy but that's fine isn't, you could have made the changes that needed to be made such that the modules didn't need fixing :)
17:12 flussence I think I scared off the gentoo people with my over-eager attempts to throw 2015.12 at them though :(
17:13 flussence it worked on day 1, then I looked at it a few days later and realised “oh shit”
17:13 pmurias nine: don't get discouraged by a rant or two, I find it awesome that you are working on precompilation as it's something that was very badly needed
17:13 dalek star: 1376cda | hankache++ | docs/perl6intro.pdf:
17:13 dalek star: add a pdf copy of perl6intro.com as suggested by timotimo++
17:13 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/1376cdaafe
17:13 dalek star: 6b33fe9 | (Steve Mynott)++ | docs/perl6intro.pdf:
17:13 dalek star: Merge pull request #59 from hankache/master
17:13 dalek star:
17:13 dalek star: add a pdf copy of perl6intro.com
17:13 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/6b33fe9d40
17:13 masak yes, what pmurias said.
17:13 RabidGravy pmurias++
17:14 pippo joined #perl6
17:14 pippo o/ #perl6! Happy New Year!!!
17:14 cygx agreed, automatic precompilation was necessary
17:14 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
17:14 pippo left #perl6
17:15 nine llfourn: https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=127086 is closed. If it's still an issue for you, please add information about why your module cannot avoid writing to STDOUT during compile time and more importantly: if you know of a platform independent way to avoid using STDOUT for passing back dependency information.
17:15 * llfourn is also very appreciative of precompilation and CompUnit stuff
17:15 cygx (though I'm a bit sad that it broke my previous workflow with manual precompilation)
17:15 masak if you are doing something relatively rare, such as doing a system-wide install, and finding before everyone else that it breaks -- the experience of having your stuff break will be frustrating, and you may not get the immediate feedback you expect, but... you also have an opportunity to help make it right. this opportunity can be squandered by e.g. writing blog posts about how frustrating stuff is and how wr
17:15 masak ong people are
17:15 masak clearly I should write shorter lines :)
17:15 masak s/wr\nong/wrong/ :)
17:16 RabidGravy masak++
17:16 llfourn nine: ah whoops it looks like I only get the inital bug report in my inbox and missed your followup :\
17:16 haircode joined #perl6
17:16 flussence (if only irc clients would warn you when you hit the server's maxlength limit...)
17:17 llfourn nine: I will change all my printing to note :)
17:17 pmurias being faced with writing a Makefile to precompile Perl 6 code really made be want to rant it not being the 20th century anymore ;)
17:18 haircode joined #perl6
17:18 nine llfourn: to be fair: using STDOUT is really just a hack that is waiting for the real solution (TM). I did not anticipate actually getting through with it.
17:20 cygx commute&
17:20 nine llfourn: do you know if #127034 has been an issue when precompiled manually before the curli merge?
17:21 llfourn nine: nope, no idea
17:22 nine llfourn: might be that the issue has existed for a long time and has just been brought to light by automatic precompilation
17:23 stmuk_ is there intended to be a R* based on 2015.12 or is better waiting for 2016.01 better?
17:23 llfourn nine: Probably. Precomp exposed a lot of rough edges :)
17:23 nine stmuk_: either a 2015.12.1 or 2016.01
17:23 pmurias llfourn> nine: ah whoops it looks like I only get the inital bug report in my inbox and missed your
17:24 flussence are we waiting on anything else urgent to be fixed, or could we do a 2015.12.1 soonish?
17:25 llfourn nine: fwiw I got the idea from this presentation by jnthn++ http://jnthn.net/papers/2015-fosdem-static-dynamic.pdf
17:26 llfourn (page 68)
17:31 llfourn nine: btw I have noticed that you have fixed other precomp issues. Thanks. #126880 and #126878 can be closed.
17:31 nine llfourn: where is my package EXPORT::DEFAULT actually documented?
17:32 nige1 joined #perl6
17:32 llfourn nine: in synopsis? I think it's S11.
17:33 llfourn nine: https://design.perl6.org/S11.html#Exportation
17:36 dddddf joined #perl6
17:36 nine llfourn: why do you use BEGIN there? The code runs at BEGIN time anyway when the module is use'd?
17:37 llfourn nine: I think you're right. I think I used BEGIN just to golf it simpler.
17:37 nine llfourn: BEGIN as a statement prefix does work. I think the uninvokable object the error is talking about may be the BEGIN block
17:38 llfourn nine: hang on lememe see if I can do it without BEGIN
17:39 nowan joined #perl6
17:41 llfourn nine: ah no. The error doesn't happen until you try and call foo at runtime.
17:42 llfourn but it does need the BEGIN to trigger it...
17:43 llfourn but I don't think it's talking about the BEGIN block unless something I don't understand is happening.
17:44 ugexex joined #perl6
17:44 llfourn nine: I guess putting it in BEGIN is right though. I want to populate EXPORT::DEFAULT at compile time.
17:46 llfourn and by that I mean that I want to have EXPORT::DEFAULT serialized with all the stuff in it to the precomp file.
17:46 ugexex tony-o "disappeared" from the project because he planning and building, wanting to submit a somehwat completed implementation instead of a rough sketch. i know this because i had quite a few hour long meetings discussing my personal concerns and saw his work first hand. its not really fair to say he disappeared; all 4 people who were associated that stuff at the time also stopped at the same time
17:52 llfourn nine: I must sleep now (5am here). Thanks for taking a look. I do hope to get back to my stale projects and revive them. I should have some more concrete RTs then :).
17:52 llfourn night all happy new year :D
17:53 dalek star: e0935ac | (Steve Mynott)++ | docs/CREDITS:
17:53 dalek star: use CREDITS.p6 to add more names with some manual dedup as well
17:53 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/e0935acdea
17:54 dalek ecosystem: e8b823e | (Dave Rolsky)++ | META.list:
17:54 dalek ecosystem: Add File::LibMagic to ecosystem
17:54 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/e8b823e2e8
17:54 autarch oops, I didn't really mean to add that directly - forgot I actually had commit on the repo
17:54 ChoHag Ooh a room full of programmers. Probably a good place to ask this:
17:55 cygx joined #perl6
17:55 ChoHag Do any laptops these days have a decent keyboard?
17:55 ChoHag My T410 is dying.
17:55 Skarsnik joined #perl6
17:55 cygx flussence: there's the switch to libuv 1.8 in the queue, but not sure if that should happen before R*
17:56 * cygx thinks it would be a nice gimmick if R* happened on 'orthodox Christmas'
17:56 stmuk_ cygx++
17:56 ChoHag Then we have until Thursday.
17:56 Skarsnik re
17:57 autarch ChoHag: the thinkpad keyboard is _ok_ but I prefer the older ones
17:57 flussence the libuv thing probably won't be a big enough deal to block on; old moarvm bundled 1.0 (or something like that), I've been compiling with 1.7 the whole time
17:57 autarch I have an X230 for reference
17:57 Skarsnik whelp, now I just need to generate NC code with : https://gist.github.com/Skarsnik/fd901dd8d26399fe4226 :)
17:57 stmuk_ ChoHag: no my T400 died recently and there are *no* keyboards with the quality of the old thinkpads
17:57 * flussence has enough experience using keyboards to know I've never used a good keyboard, period.
17:57 atweiden joined #perl6
17:58 stmuk_ the "gamer" mechnical keyboards with Cherry switches are pretty good
17:58 Axord No good wars, no good keyboards.
17:58 ChoHag The one I'm using now is nice, since The Great Spillage of 2015 killed the laptop's.
17:58 autarch yeah, I'm not thrilled with lenovo for changing the design - but the new ones are usable enough - but I do most of my work on a desktop with an old IBM server keyboard (IBM 7953)
17:59 Skarsnik I miss they keytronics keyboard from my school x)
17:59 stmuk_ there was talk of a Old School Thinkpad being released
17:59 ChoHag Really the only point in a laptop is to be a keyboard with a screen attached and neither can be found, even separately.
18:00 user74747 joined #perl6
18:00 ChoHag It's why I'm still on this even though it's now more dongle than device.
18:01 ChoHag At least I'd feared as much. Now more or less confirmed.
18:06 nexysno_ joined #perl6
18:08 zwu joined #perl6
18:08 nine ugexex: sorry, I just meant, that I couldn't find anything more on the topic. It's a shame, that his input was lost in the process.
18:09 Skarsnik Is there a nice way to continue code after a MAIN block? like sub MAIN(argstuff) {}; The real code to be executed;
18:10 _Vi joined #perl6
18:10 autarch I see the use "try" in some p6 code but it's not mentioned in the docs. Is this an outdated usage?
18:11 zwu is there examples about packages  the import and declare) in the detail, the documentation is too minimal.
18:12 cognominal joined #perl6
18:13 gfldex autarch: well spotted, i will try to add try to https://doc.perl6.org/language/exceptions
18:13 autarch so uh, how does it work?
18:13 flussence autarch: "try" isn't as important as it is in other languages, so maybe that's why it doesn't get as much coverage
18:13 gfldex try is kind of a scope for Expection::throw
18:13 flussence it just makes fatal stuff in that scope non-fatal, basically
18:14 autarch but it doesn't pair up with a catch?
18:14 autarch m: die q{foo}; CATCH { say "CAUGHT $_" }
18:14 flussence you can put a catch anywhere in p6
18:14 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«CAUGHT foo␤foo␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/uSspcHNbF_ line 1␤␤»
18:14 gfldex it's unfatalises if the exception is handled
18:14 cygx flussence: actually,it makes things *more* fatal, but has an implicit CATCH block that ignores errors by default
18:14 autarch note that the code I just showed spits out the "CAUGHT foo" followed by "foo\n in block ..."
18:14 lsm Green switches all the way.  Now, if only a laptop had them.
18:15 cygx S04: "Additionally, the try block or statement implicitly enforces a use fatal context such that failures are immediately thrown as exceptions."
18:15 flussence autarch: it's not caught unless something in the CATCH block tests $_ as a boolean, or if there's a default {} in it
18:16 autarch flussence: ah, ok
18:16 flussence m: die q{foo}; CATCH { say ?$_; say "CAUGHT $_"; }
18:16 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«True␤CAUGHT foo␤foo␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/FhBwbM26o5 line 1␤␤»
18:16 flussence ...okay, scratch the first part
18:16 flussence boolean is for Failure objects, you do need the given/when pattern in CATCH
18:18 autarch that's kind of annoying if I want to handle _all_ exceptions the same way
18:19 dalek doc: 42677fc | (Steve Mynott)++ | bin/p6doc-index:
18:19 dalek doc: work around PROGRAM-NAME displaying a SHA hash
18:19 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/42677fc1a4
18:20 frankjh left #perl6
18:20 cygx autarch: annoying how? there's default {...}
18:20 autarch cygx: just seems like tedious boilerplate when I'd rather write "CATCH { do-my-thing }"
18:23 ugexex m: die "foo"; CATCH { say $! }
18:23 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«Nil␤foo␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/U0Bzps4iO6 line 1␤␤»
18:24 cygx m: die "foo"; CATCH { say $_ }; say $!
18:24 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«foo␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/k4uhr2VGnB line 1␤␤foo␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/k4uhr2VGnB line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/k4uhr2VGnB line 1␤␤»
18:25 mst autarch: I can see forcing people to think about that turning out to be a nice thing for the world overall
18:25 cygx m: die "foo"; CATCH { default { say $_ } }; say $!
18:25 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«foo␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/S2gNbMs3cA line 1␤␤»
18:26 autarch ah, if I can just right default with the given that's a bit better
18:26 TimToady exceptions are supposed to be exceptional, so I don't see much point in huffmanizing that shorter
18:27 pdcawley joined #perl6
18:27 autarch could be worse, I could be back to writing Go ;)
18:28 nine cygx: please let's identify and fix the most pressing issues before picking any release date. Picking the date in advance has shown its downsides quite well :)
18:30 pochi .u 束 損
18:30 yoleaux U+0020 SPACE [Zs] ( )
18:31 ugexex theres always `try { ... } || <handle $!>`
18:31 nine mst: your input on https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/92ef589c74b6a4a054d9672c5de907e43d3765da would be appreciated
18:31 cygx nine: spoilsport :p
18:31 cygx are there any pressing issues besides panda and distro packaging?
18:31 mst nine: hm. how come it needs that, given panda seems to be able to already not install already-present transitive deps?
18:32 Skarsnik cygx, document precomp stuff x)
18:32 nine mst: panda has a state file which it stores into the repo in panda/state and where it records what it installed so far. That's redundant information and therefore almost by definition out of sync
18:33 mst ah
18:33 mst that ... explains a number of things that were confusing me.
18:34 nine The (literally) one bit of extra information it stores is whether something was installed directly, or as a dependency of a requested module.
18:34 mst right, sec
18:35 flussence I'm pretty sure it changes that one bit if you install something later that turns an earlier thing into a dep...
18:35 nine I'll be AFK for about an hour for the last episode of Planet Earth
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18:47 dalek doc: ed0278d | (Steve Mynott)++ | bin/p6doc:
18:47 dalek doc: work around PROGRAM-NAME displaying a SHA hash
18:47 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/ed0278d785
18:47 dalek doc: c92167d | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/exceptions.pod:
18:47 dalek doc: doc try blocks
18:47 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/c92167d250
18:47 dalek doc: 8f94623 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/exceptions.pod:
18:47 dalek doc: Merge pull request #307 from gfldex/master
18:47 dalek doc:
18:47 dalek doc: doc try blocks
18:47 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/8f94623923
18:48 gfldex autarch: see https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/8f94623923
18:49 anol joined #perl6
18:49 autarch gfldex: thanks - I think it'd be good to add some annotations to the code example to show the order of when each thing will run and be seen
18:52 average joined #perl6
18:52 mst nine: basic shape of the code looks entirely reasonable although I'm not amazingly fond of the odd mix of '$handle ||=' and '$handle //=' (and I tend towards single-assignment styles anyway)
18:52 average hey mst , happy new year
18:52 llfourn joined #perl6
18:52 average amazing that p6 was released
18:53 average but now what..
18:56 perigrin Now we try to use it in places we wouldn't have before, and write up what works nad what didn't so people with more cautious needs can follow along. Then fix what didn't work and write that up too.
18:56 gfldex average: you gonna write loads of useful modules in Perl 6 and add them to the eco system.
18:56 mscha joined #perl6
18:57 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
18:57 gfldex there are plenty of bugs to be fixed and rakudo can and will be a good bit faster
18:57 FROGGS joined #perl6
18:58 mst oh, hey, it's my biggest fan, the only guy I've had to reban more times than evan carroll
18:58 mst average wrote http://i.imgur.com/DrwIb.png back in the day, I'm looking forward to the next love letter, I bet it'll be even more awesome :D
18:59 average gfldex: getting rakudo to be faster would be nice, having more modules would be nice
18:59 [ptc] gfldex: dumb question: why don't you just commit to the doc repo directly?
18:59 average http://blog.garage-coding.com/2015/12/20/overview-perl-opensource-projects.html
18:59 [ptc] gfldex: that would save two emails and a pull request and a merge commit in the doc repo
18:59 average I wrote this blogpost about places where Perl5 is being used
18:59 [ptc] gfldex: I'm assuming you've got a good reason, I just haven't yet worked out what it is, and I'm curious :-)
19:00 average I believe much of the success of p5 comes from the strong positioning in certain areas that it was able to make early on
19:00 gfldex [ptc]: technically the pull request hits a build server that will test the build. Sadly that test runs for the better part on one hour, so I refuse to wait that long and just hit the button.
19:00 gfldex [ptc]: when rakudo gets faster ...
19:00 average I wonder if this is a language-design question, or if it's a user-base decision and trend question
19:01 average what is p6 positioning itself for, and what niches does it plan to cover ?
19:01 perigrin "plan" is such a strong word.
19:01 [ptc] gfldex: but a push to the doc repo should also trigger a build (at least theoretically).  If not, then the relevant build switch needs to be turned on
19:01 average perigrin: please replace "plan" with something else
19:02 average here is another link with a survey of the Haskell eco-system https://github.com/Gabriel439/post-rfc/blob/master/sotu.md
19:02 perigrin average: I can't, you seem to be suggesting that p5 "planned" on covering the markets it happened to cover in the late 90s
19:02 average perigrin: maybe my suggestion is wrong
19:02 perigrin from what I can tell the only time someone Planned on Perl covering a specific nich was when TimToady first released it to work as a systems tool.
19:02 gfldex [ptc]: when you create the PR you get a little windows that would display the test result, I could wait for that, read error messages and decide if I want to hit the merge button.
19:03 average perigrin: log analysis and automation ?
19:03 [ptc] gfldex: oh, now I get you!
19:04 perigrin average: "more structured than shell, less structured than C" really ... log analysis and automation is too fine grained.
19:04 average I see, ok
19:04 pmurias joined #perl6
19:04 [ptc] gfldex: building the html locally also takes ages...  However the test suite doesn't take that long
19:04 perigrin in my experience the only people who target "niches" like that are corporations who a) have a bunch of marketing and sales people sitting around and b) have the ability to really focus like that by paying people to be interested in log analysis and automation
19:05 perigrin Open Source works more as a pull than a push. "Hey I hate doing log analysis and automation because [reasons it sucks]. I found that [wiffy new tool] helped! Here's how!"
19:05 [ptc] gfldex: maybe we need to extend the test suite so that it picks up problems sooner, and people can run the tests locally to check that a push to the doc repo would work
19:05 perigrin then everyone piles on for a while
19:06 [ptc] gfldex: although, just updating text should be fine, so that wouldn't need separate PR/merge steps
19:06 average perigrin: well.. i think there's a fair amount of things that need to be in place before the "everyone piles on for a while" part
19:06 average mainly quality
19:07 average ooor... not many alternatives
19:07 average IOW the lack of alternatives
19:07 nexysno_ joined #perl6
19:08 average perigrin: so you would advocate organic/natural growth and not a systematic plan ?
19:08 perigrin Well yeah the context surrounding programming is vastly different between 2016 and 1994 or 1987
19:09 perigrin average: I think that you can have a systematic plan all you want. I think what you'll get is organic/natural growth.
19:09 itaipu joined #perl6
19:09 perigrin so it's not advocacy so much as pessamisim.
19:09 average :)
19:11 average perigrin: I agree with you that 2016 is very different from 1994/1987
19:11 perigrin I also think that being unrealisitically optimistic (read _optimistic at all_) about a systematic plan will lead to the open source community actively rejecting you as being an naieve idiot.
19:11 gfldex [ptc]: the build system doens't check if there is a =begin pod in any file. So deleting a single line in a file can make the whole doc disappear
19:12 perigrin That said, I don't disagree with actually having one though. I just think that you need to be realistic about how well such a plan will match reality.
19:12 gfldex [ptc]: that's why i made myself a little helper tha can render all doc files in 1m13s.
19:13 average so maybe the language designers have something in mind when they design the language
19:13 gfldex [ptc]: however, i do agree that for now i'm annoying and should change my workflow
19:13 average like maybe in the '80s general purpose was fine because there weren't that many alternatives, and there were still holes in the market that needed to be filled
19:14 [ptc] gfldex: I'm not saying you're annoying :-)  I was just wondering about the workflow.  However, I do agree that it's sort of noisy...
19:14 average but today's languages have mostly covered the market's needs. there's also a lot of market fragmentation going on
19:14 bartolin joined #perl6
19:15 [ptc] gfldex: my gut feeling had been that people with commit bits would just `git push` to the repo.  Nevertheless, if there are other ways people can be productive, I'm all for it!
19:15 average also some power law going on where 2-3 languages have near 80% marketshare, and the rest fight for the remaining 20%
19:15 autarch it seems like I get 2-3 copies of every compilation error being spit out to the console
19:16 mst and just yesterday you were complaining about not getting -enough- errors
19:16 perigrin autarch: mst's right ... seems like progress to me ...
19:16 mst you hurt the compiler's feelings and it's overcompensating
19:16 autarch haha
19:16 autarch it's been doing this for a while, actually
19:17 virtualsue average: your conversation is a great example what i'd love to see on irc.perl.org/#perl6
19:18 Skarsnik m: say "piko{"; for ^4 -> $f {} # LTA?
19:18 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/PIn__Hzs8W␤Variable '$f' is not declared␤at /tmp/PIn__Hzs8W:1␤------> 3say "piko{"; for ^4 -> 7⏏5$f {} # LTA?␤»
19:18 average virtualsue: I'm glad you do, I like Freenode better tbh
19:18 virtualsue oh, that's fine
19:18 flussence Skarsnik: that error makes me go wtf
19:19 TimToady it's parsing a "", so $f is trying to interpolate
19:19 Skarsnik it's the { at the end of the %
19:19 Skarsnik "
19:19 TimToady -> is just string
19:19 average https://twitter.com/OpenCageData/status/682528798231937024
19:19 average here's an oportunity ^^
19:20 mst virtualsue: average is permanently banned from irc.perl.org for disrupting every channel he's ever joined and responding to being asked to stop insulting people with ban evasion rather than thought
19:20 flussence oh right, the {
19:20 average it's an ok oportunity .. more or less
19:20 mst after the fifth channel or so we removed him from the entire network so people could actually get some work done
19:20 Skarsnik took me a while to found my mistake x)
19:20 mst we tried letting him back on earlier this year; it didn't work
19:21 average but what I would personally like to see, is someone figuring out what 2016 really means and have p6 take over a piece of the pie. this tech pie is really weird, slices get taken away but also added !
19:21 virtualsue heh, well i'm not surprised there is a back story, however in this case meta discussion on irc.perl.org/#perl6 wouldn't be unwelcome
19:21 masak average: "today's languages have mostly covered the market's needs" -- I used to think that was true. nowadays I think that's a too static view of things, caused by a short-term perspective.
19:22 flussence perl6 is more about writing a *good* programming language than dominating some market or other
19:22 virtualsue as this is the official channel for perl6 dev
19:22 masak average: languages are evolving all the time, cross-pollinating and influencing each other.
19:22 mst virtualsue: perhaps. but irc.perl.org is not somewhere he's permitted, full stop.
19:22 virtualsue yes i gathered that and i don't know why you are going off on me
19:22 virtualsue but thanks anyway
19:22 webstrand joined #perl6
19:22 flussence if it was all about making money, I sure as hell wouldn't be here working on it in my free time.
19:23 masak average: what's more important, though, is that we (the programming guild as a whole) *suck* at developing reliable, robust software to spec, within budget, and on time.
19:23 mst I'm not going off on you. I'm just saving you the trouble, and the irc.perl.org opers a week of dropping G-lines
19:23 masak average: we know next to nothing, and our languages are definitely not covering the market's needs.
19:23 harrison__ joined #perl6
19:24 Skarsnik Finally, I wrote something to generate NC stuff from an header :) https://gist.github.com/Skarsnik/fd901dd8d26399fe4226
19:25 geekosaur oh, they're in here now
19:25 average masak: many people believe that the level of reliability/robustness and delivery time depend on the developers
19:25 average masak: and not the language
19:25 geekosaur apparently it's time to disrupt the freenode language channels now
19:25 average sure there's always the two schools of thought like who's fault is it for something going wrong ? is it the developer's fault or the technologies he used ?
19:25 flussence Skarsnik: ooh, I want to see how much it butchers sqlite.h :D
19:26 Skarsnik I need more work on typedef and union (and see if I can grab enum that are not C enum)
19:26 average that Natanel Rubin guy blames technologies
19:26 * flussence actually opens sqlite3.h... ouch.
19:27 * TimToady yawns
19:27 mst flussence: quick, bleach your brain by reading a random openssl header
19:27 Skarsnik I will commit this stuff after dinner
19:27 average many blogposts from business-types blame the people
19:27 cygx .oO( it's always the developer, never the language - that's why I do all my web programming in assembler! )
19:27 flussence mst: I've already read enough libressl patches to have permanent brain damage from that :D
19:28 Skarsnik I don't know. language does not feel important for me if you have enought manpower to make it work (see Java)
19:29 average who here likes Natanel's presentation ?
19:29 average mst: you like Natanel right ?
19:30 flussence I'm beginning to see his point with all this obstinate passive-aggressiveness...
19:31 cygx Skarsnik: manpower does not come for free
19:31 average well, don't jump to conclusions
19:31 molaf joined #perl6
19:31 TimToady average: you're being poisonous, please stop
19:31 average i'll stop, fine
19:36 Mouq timotimo: re: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2016-01-01#i_11815404 Orrr… https://graydon2.dreamwidth.org/1597.html bors has worked as a pretty good system for Rust developers
19:40 Mouq timotimo: Oh, wait. I'm dumbs. Just got up, ignore me, that doesn't actually adress the issue in this case :P
19:40 Dave___ joined #perl6
19:40 average TimToady: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGWZFcsyMgA
19:41 dpuu joined #perl6
19:42 pochi m: class Foo { has $!secret = (^10).pick; method sauce(Foo $other) { say $!secret + $other.$!secret } }; Foo.new().sauce( Foo.new() )
19:42 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«Cannot find method 'CALL-ME'␤  in method sauce at /tmp/wmjj0q9DXr line 1␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/wmjj0q9DXr line 1␤␤»
19:43 spider-mario joined #perl6
19:43 pochi call who?
19:43 * pochi thinks 'has $!foo' should generate a private accessor like 'has $.foo'
19:44 RabidGravy it the . you want ~
19:44 RabidGravy say $!secret + $other ~ $!secret
19:44 cygx RabidGravy: you're misreading the intention
19:44 RabidGravy probably
19:45 pochi I just want to secretly add two numbers (in that example)
19:45 flussence m: class Foo { has $!secret = (^10).pick; method sauce(Foo $other) { say $!secret + $other!secret } }; Foo.new().sauce( Foo.new() )
19:45 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/DaViY9nb7v␤No such private method 'secret' for invocant of type 'Foo'␤at /tmp/DaViY9nb7v:1␤------> 3uce(Foo $other) { say $!secret + $other!7⏏5secret } }; Foo.new().sauce( Foo.new() )␤»
19:45 gfldex pochi: private attributes are takes for inlining, if you need an accessor for a private attribute you have to write it yourself
19:46 gfldex s/takes/targets/
19:46 pochi gfldex: well for now. But I think it would be a good idea for perl6 to auto-generate them
19:47 cygx btw, syntactically, it would have to be this:
19:47 RabidGravy but you still couldn't use another objects privates there anyway could you?
19:47 cygx m: class Foo { has $!secret = (^10).pick; method sauce(Foo $other) { say $!secret + $other!secret } }; Foo.new().sauce(Foo.new() )
19:47 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/5fcFm1lF8o␤No such private method 'secret' for invocant of type 'Foo'␤at /tmp/5fcFm1lF8o:1␤------> 3uce(Foo $other) { say $!secret + $other!7⏏5secret } }; Foo.new().sauce(Foo.new() )␤»
19:47 pochi if you declare method !secret(), that works
19:47 pochi but then I have to type stuff ... :-)
19:49 cygx pochi: you can write a trait_mod that generates the accessor for you
19:49 nexysno_ joined #perl6
19:49 nine mst: now that I've moved the actual locating of module files out of method need, FileSystem's and Installation's are so similar, I wonder if a part of it should be moved to PrecompilationRepository. The whole may-recomp and load or (precompile and load) and the say "$id $file" if precomp are identical
19:50 mst I'm not entirely clear on the difference between the two
19:50 nine which two?
19:50 gfldex pochi: if you don't want the typing, make yourself a trait to do it for you
19:50 flussence aren't they already, in purpose, identical apart from the search path for each?
19:50 mst FileSystem and Installation
19:51 ugexex thats why CompUnitRepo::Locally was a role applied to CompUnitRepo::Local::Installation and CompUnitRepo::File
19:51 ugexex ::Local::File^
19:51 cygx bye o/
19:51 nine FileSystem is just a Perl 5 style directory where we locate modules by file name, Installation is more like a database that takes auth, ver and api into account when looking for modules.
19:52 pochi cygx, gfldex: I'd really like it if it was in the language though.
19:52 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
19:52 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
19:53 nine FileSystem's primary purpose is during development where you just want to load those modules in your lib directory, because you're working on them.
19:53 nine That's e.g. why we assume that we can write there.
19:53 llfourn joined #perl6
19:57 Rotwang why installed modules have mangled names like /home/ubuntu/.rakudobrew/moar-nom/install/share/perl6/site/sources/1D97043E9DBF06E7193373CA595B4337F76A3450
19:57 Rotwang it looks terrible in stakctraaces
19:57 Skarsnik is there a policy to add stuff on perl6 github organisation?
19:57 Skarsnik blame precomp x)
19:58 gfldex Skarsnik: are you asking for? https://doc.perl6.org/language/modules#Distributing_Modules
19:59 _Vi joined #perl6
20:00 dpuu m: my @neighbors = (-1, 0), (0, -1), (0, 1), (1, 0); my $p = [2,3]; @neighbors >>+>> $p
20:00 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: ( no output )
20:00 dpuu m: my @neighbors = (-1, 0), (0, -1), (0, 1), (1, 0); my $p = [2,3]; say @neighbors >>+>> $p
20:00 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«[(1 2) (3 2) (2 3) (4 3)]␤»
20:00 dpuu m: my @neighbors = (-1, 0), (0, -1), (0, 1), (1, 0); my $p = [2,3]; say @neighbors >>+<< ($p xx @neighbors.elems)
20:00 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«[(1 3) (2 2) (2 4) (3 3)]␤»
20:00 nine Rotwang: because module names may use full Unicode and not all file systems support that. And different distributions may contain files with the same name, so we need to disambiguate. That said, I believe we can still do better in the backtraces.
20:01 zwu joined #perl6
20:01 dpuu extension rules for hyper>+>> confused me ... Any way to not need the explicit "($p xx @neighbors.elems)"
20:03 dpuu m: my @neighbors = [0,0] xx 4; my $p = [2,3]; say @neighbors >>+>> $p
20:03 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«[[2 2] [3 3] [2 2] [3 3]]␤»
20:03 gfldex m: my @neighbors = (-1, 0), (0, -1), (0, 1), (1, 0); my $p = [2,3]; say @neighbors.flat >>+>> $p;
20:03 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«((1 2) (3 2) (2 3) (4 3))␤»
20:03 timotimo oh, it must be because it descends into structures, eh?
20:04 gfldex m: my @neighbors = (-1, 0), (0, -1), (0, 1), (1, 0); my $p = [2,3]; dd @neighbors.flat;
20:04 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«($(-1, 0), $(0, -1), $(0, 1), $(1, 0)).Seq␤»
20:04 dpuu yes. compiled fine but took a while to figure out why my tests were failing
20:04 gfldex m: my $neighbors = (-1, 0), (0, -1), (0, 1), (1, 0); my $p = [2,3]; say @neighbors.flat >>+>> $p;
20:04 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/DxdneRKBgV␤Variable '@neighbors' is not declared. Did you mean '$neighbors'?␤at /tmp/DxdneRKBgV:1␤------> 3-1), (0, 1), (1, 0); my $p = [2,3]; say 7⏏5@neighbors.flat >>+>> $p;␤»
20:04 gfldex m: my $neighbors = (-1, 0), (0, -1), (0, 1), (1, 0); my $p = [2,3]; say $neighbors.flat >>+>> $p;
20:04 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for /tmp/Y8boa42P3R:␤Useless use of constant integer 0 in sink context (lines 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1)␤Useless use of constant integer 1 in sink context (lines 1, 1, 1, 1)␤Useless use of "-" in expression "-1" in sink context (line 1)␤(1 3)␤»
20:05 gfldex should't >>+>> round robin in it's RHS?
20:05 nine Now if only I could find a good method name for load-precompiled-or-precompile-if-source-changed-and-then-load
20:05 ugexex i used -I on a cluster so slaves could load modules off a central read only network share that a master controlled/rotated fwiw. maybe something else fills that role now
20:06 dpuu m: my @kNeighbors_n8 = ([X] (-1,0,1) xx 2).grep: { .all != 0 }; say "this is cool: {@kNeighbors_n8}"
20:06 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«this is cool: -1 -1 -1 0 -1 1 0 -1 0 1 1 -1 1 0 1 1␤»
20:06 gfldex m: my $neighbors = ((-1, 0), (0, -1), (0, 1), (1, 0)); my $p = (2,3); say $neighbors.flat >>+>> $p;
20:06 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«(1 3 2 2 2 4 3 3)␤»
20:06 nine http://www.snarky.ca/the-stages-of-the-python-3-transition
20:06 dpuu m: my @kNeighbors_n8 = ([X] (-1,0,1) xx 2).grep: { .all != 0 }; say "this is cool: {@kNeighbors_n8.perl}"
20:06 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«this is cool: [(-1, -1), (-1, 0), (-1, 1), (0, -1), (0, 1), (1, -1), (1, 0), (1, 1)]␤»
20:08 gfldex m: my $neighbors = ((-1, 0), (0, -1), (0, 1), (1, 0)).flat; my $p = (2,3); say $neighbors >>+>> $p;
20:08 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«(1 3 2 2 2 4 3 3)␤»
20:09 masak moritz: hm, getting "Internal Server Error" when I use irclog.perlgeek.de's search
20:10 Mouq m: my @neighbors = [0,0] xx 4; my $p = [2,3]; say @neighbors >>+>> $p, *
20:10 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«[[2 2] [3 3] [2 2] [3 3]]*␤»
20:10 Mouq m: my @neighbors = [0,0] xx 4; my $p = [2,3]; say @neighbors >>+>> ($p, *)
20:10 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«[[2 3] [2 3] [2 3] [2 3]]␤»
20:11 gfldex dpuu: i think the problem is that >>+>> is a meta-operator, not a meta-meta-operator
20:11 _nadim I'm going to have a few questions about concurency in the coming days, and try your patience too :), if I have an object $o and schedule two tasks with $p1 = start {$o.something) ; $p2 = start {$.something}; this is a receipt for crash, right?
20:11 Mouq m: my @neighbors = [0,0] xx 4; my $p = [2,3]; say @neighbors >>+>> (@$p)
20:11 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«[[2 2] [3 3] [2 2] [3 3]]␤»
20:14 gfldex m: my $neighbors = ((-1, 0), (0, -1), (0, 1), (1, 0)); my $p = (2,3); say $neighbors »>>+<<» $p
20:14 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«((1 2) (3 2) (2 3) (4 3))␤»
20:14 dpuu +Mouq: thanks for the ($p, *) tip
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20:15 gfldex m: my $neighbors = ((-1, 0), (0, -1), (0, 1), (1, 0)); my $p = (2,3); say $neighbors »>>+<<» ($p, *)
20:15 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«((1 3) (2 2) (2 4) (3 3))␤»
20:16 Skarsnik gfldex, no on the perl6 sub on github (like perl6/DBIish)
20:19 Jukka_ joined #perl6
20:22 zwu joined #perl6
20:23 _Vi joined #perl6
20:24 Skarsnik how do I negate a regex (not a !~~), it's to pass to something that take a regex
20:24 jameslenz joined #perl6
20:24 zwu I don't like to use the full name for class definition, such as class X::Y::Z::MyClass {...}, is there any short name support as module X { module Y { module Z { class MyClassA {...} class MyClassB ...}}}
20:26 Skarsnik export your class?
20:27 RabidGravy zwu, what you have there will work
20:27 zwu RabidGravy, thanks, but haven't found in the doc.
20:28 RabidGravy m: module X { module Y { module Z { class MyClassA {} }}};  say X::Y::Z::MyClassA.new
20:28 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«X::Y::Z::MyClassA.new␤»
20:28 lucasb joined #perl6
20:30 Skarsnik I want to negate /^__/, I am too tired to think x)
20:30 dalek doc: f6854ec | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod:
20:30 dalek doc: doc handling of LoLs with hyper operators
20:30 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f6854ec85d
20:30 dalek doc: bb83569 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod:
20:30 dalek doc: Merge pull request #308 from gfldex/master
20:30 dalek doc:
20:30 dalek doc: doc handling of LoLs with hyper operators
20:31 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/bb83569e84
20:31 TEttinger joined #perl6
20:32 dalek gtk-simple: b1ddeb2 | (Naoum Hankache)++ | lib/GTK/GDK.pm6:
20:32 dalek gtk-simple: int -> int32
20:32 dalek gtk-simple:
20:32 dalek gtk-simple: ===SORRY!===
20:32 dalek gtk-simple: You should not return a non NativeCall supported type (like Int inplace of int32), truncating errors can appear with different architectures
20:32 dalek gtk-simple: review: https://github.com/perl6/gtk-simple/commit/b1ddeb288b
20:32 dalek gtk-simple: fcc0a6f | (Naoum Hankache)++ | lib/GTK/GDK.pm6:
20:32 dalek gtk-simple: int -> int32
20:32 dalek gtk-simple: review: https://github.com/perl6/gtk-simple/commit/fcc0a6f52b
20:32 dalek gtk-simple: 49bec90 | (Naoum Hankache)++ | lib/GTK/Simple.pm6:
20:32 dalek gtk-simple: int -> int32
20:32 dalek gtk-simple: review: https://github.com/perl6/gtk-simple/commit/49bec90c6b
20:32 dalek gtk-simple: 7ffd587 | RabidGravy++ | lib/GTK/ (2 files):
20:32 dalek gtk-simple: Merge pull request #22 from hankache/master
20:32 dalek gtk-simple:
20:32 dalek gtk-simple: Replace int with int32
20:32 dalek gtk-simple: review: https://github.com/perl6/gtk-simple/commit/7ffd5872c7
20:32 zwu joined #perl6
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20:32 Skarsnik damn too fast for me xD
20:33 masak zwu: also consider using `constant`
20:34 Skarsnik m: say "__" ~~ /<-^__>/;
20:34 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter < (must be quoted to match literally)␤at /tmp/6pUQd5if0N:1␤------> 3say "__" ~~ /<-7⏏5^__>/;␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter - (must be quoted to match literally)␤at /tmp/6pUQd5if0N:1␤-…»
20:34 masak m: constant CPR = X::Pragma::CannotPrecomp; say CPR
20:34 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«(CannotPrecomp)␤»
20:34 telex joined #perl6
20:34 Skarsnik m: say "__" ~~ /^<-__>/;
20:34 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«Method '__' not found for invocant of class 'Cursor'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/EptCmQkqJN line 1␤␤»
20:35 masak Skarsnik: what are you trying to do?
20:35 gfldex i shall now resume with docing exceptions by docing resuming of exceptions
20:35 zwu I saw most of exception class definition https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/src/core/Exception.pm is using the full name under global scope, such as my class X::AdHoc is Exception , my class X::NQP::NotFound is Exception. Since they are all under namespace X, why not to use the module X {...}
20:35 SwellJoe joined #perl6
20:35 Skarsnik to have the oposide of /^__/ -> to no match stuff begining with __; but it's too give to a method that take a regex, so I can't do !~~
20:35 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
20:37 Skarsnik Oh I can write * !~~ /^__/ x)
20:38 lucasb Skarsnik: but the method expects a regex object or a whatervercode object?
20:39 lucasb by WhaterverCode object, I meant Callable
20:39 Skarsnik it's the elements method of XML, you can write my @not-red = $div.elements(:class(* ne 'red')); :)
20:39 masak m: say "__" ~~ / ^ <!before "__"> /
20:39 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
20:39 masak m: say "foo" ~~ / ^ <!before "__"> /
20:39 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«「」␤»
20:40 masak m: say so "foo" ~~ / ^ <!before "__"> /
20:40 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«True␤»
20:42 RabidGravy zwu,  they're not exactly equivalent
20:43 RabidGravy m: class Y::Foo {}; say Y.HOW; module Z {}; say Z.HOW
20:43 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«Perl6::Metamodel::PackageHOW.new␤Perl6::Metamodel::ModuleHOW.new␤»
20:43 RabidGravy oh left again
20:43 * flussence disappears for an hour or two, but leaves this for thought -- “==> Please make sure that inst#/home/foo/.perl6/$version/bin is in your PATH” isn't sustainable. We can't expect every end user to modify .bashrc every time their distro updates perl6.
20:44 RabidGravy I would say a packager would make there own arrangements
20:44 RabidGravy thir
20:45 RabidGravy their
20:45 RabidGravy even
20:47 lucasb oh, it's under ~/.perl6 now? last time I played with it, it was installing under share/perl6/site/bin
20:47 lucasb *it's installing under
20:49 ugexex it installs wherever you tell it
20:50 pjscott joined #perl6
20:52 Skarsnik flussence, if you want to have fun https://github.com/Skarsnik/gptrixie
20:53 llfourn joined #perl6
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20:54 Rotwang docs say that Tap has mettod tappers, however this is not the case
20:55 Rotwang m: say so <tappers> eq any(Tap.^mro>>.^methods>>.gist)
20:55 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«False␤»
20:55 Rotwang What I want to do is to see if someone is tapped to my supply.
20:55 Holz joined #perl6
20:57 Rotwang or, i want to see if the tap is open
20:59 dalek doc: 6d0cfe4 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/ (2 files):
20:59 dalek doc: doc resuming of exceptions
20:59 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/6d0cfe43d3
20:59 dalek doc: ede8def | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | /:
20:59 dalek doc: Merge remote-tracking branch 'upstream/master'
20:59 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/ede8def173
20:59 dalek doc: 51383a7 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/ (2 files):
20:59 dalek doc: Merge pull request #309 from gfldex/master
20:59 dalek doc:
20:59 dalek doc: doc resuming of exceptions
20:59 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/51383a7d61
21:00 Skarsnik m: role R { has int $!a }; class A does R { method a() { $!a = 42 } }; say A.new.a
21:00 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to an immutable value␤  in method a at /tmp/mb0PbyS_Zt line 1␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/mb0PbyS_Zt line 1␤␤»
21:01 ugexex it used to be .taps, but it looks like that doesnt work now
21:03 Rotwang wrong, supply should have tappers
21:03 Rotwang m: say so <tappers> eq any(Supply.^mro>>.^methods>>.gist)
21:03 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«False␤»
21:04 ugexex the docs literally say .taps, so i dont know what you are talking about
21:05 ugexex .tappers gives you the taps, which is different from what you asked
21:05 ugexex should give^
21:06 Rotwang ugexex: I confused Tap with Supply, docs say that Supply has method tapper when it doesn't
21:06 Rotwang tappers*
21:07 gfldex Rotwang: see https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/f2dd986fabb182283ee447c1a2da708b75e09f80/src/core/Supply.pm
21:07 gfldex the list of tappers is there, but there is no public interface
21:07 ugexex yes, it also has .taps which says its supposed to give you the count of subsribers which is what you asked. .tappers gives you the actual taps. (although neither .taps or .tappers work now, like i said)
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21:08 gfldex and i believe it would be rather difficult to provide a thread safe way to deal with the problem
21:12 Rotwang ok, thanks, the docs should be updated though
21:12 RabidGravy just doing it
21:12 RabidGravy ;-p
21:12 Rotwang thanks [:
21:14 dalek doc: 402d4d4 | RabidGravy++ | doc/Type/Supply.pod:
21:14 dalek doc: Remove taps/tappers
21:14 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/402d4d42ea
21:17 RabidGravy when I updated them before I was aware of the way it has changed regarding creating Supplys but not so much of what was taken out altogether
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21:21 Skarsnik RabidGravy, if you have some time, can you play around with https://github.com/Skarsnik/gptrixie and the lib you already bind to see if that work nicely? I am too tired to work on it, but I am not against some feedback (it far from being complete)
21:23 RabidGravy I had a look, I'll play in the morning though
21:25 pierre-v_ joined #perl6
21:26 Skarsnik I will try to bind gstreamer with it x)
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21:30 nine .tell flussence absolutely. We really should install those wrappers in /usr/bin or ~/bin if we can't write to the former. The wrappers themselves are independent of Perl or module version.
21:30 yoleaux nine: I'll pass your message to flussence.
21:34 mst nine: I ... would worry slightly about the possible risks of making ourselves assume that
21:36 moritz well, to $PREFIX/bin
21:36 nine mst: you mean the latter part?
21:37 moritz hm, still dangerous
21:37 mst nine: assuming they'll remain independent
21:37 mst that's a constraint that we might not want to buy
21:37 * mst points out that yesterday was "fun with wrappers" day
21:37 moritz if rakudo and panda is installed via a package manager, $PREFIX will be /usr, but that doesn't mean panda-installed stuff should end up with a /usr/ $PREFIX
21:38 nine moritz: well $PREFIX/bin with fallback to ~/bin
21:39 mst given the horrors we've experienced over the years from 'cpan as root', I'm not sure I'm convinced
21:40 Skarsnik https://github.com/perl6/gtk-simple/pull/22#issuecomment-168339317 I am confused. NC is outisde the spec, why should it stay compatible with 6.c (buggy) release?
21:41 nine mst: most of the wrapper code is actually error handling. The .files method is the only virtually unchanged part remaining from the CompUnitRepo era. We really should design an interface for the use case it's used for. That could cut down the necessary code in the wrappers.
21:41 nine And therefore the possibilities for incompatibilities.
21:41 pi1 joined #perl6
21:42 mst nine: yes. it should, in theory, be fine. but my "what could possibly go wrong?" alarm is going off :P
21:43 pi1 joined #perl6
21:44 nine Perl 5 modules happily install much larger scripts into bin/. Whatever we do can only be an improvement on that.
21:46 z8 joined #perl6
21:48 pi4 joined #perl6
21:49 mst well, yes, I'm just trying to not commit to things that would restrict how much of an improvement later :)
21:50 pi1 joined #perl6
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21:53 nine mst: learning from Catalyst here: the less code in the script, the better :) Then upgrades don't hurt anymore.
21:53 mst that was not a hilarious transition.
21:53 pmurias nine: is the code in the wrapper script precompiled?
21:53 nine pmurias: nowan
21:53 nine pmurias: no
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21:54 pi1 joined #perl6
21:55 pmurias nine: so once we transition to it being precompiled things will change?
21:57 flussence ~/bin is LTA because that's too generic and global. perl5 local::lib uses ~/perl5/bin, we should probably follow that lead.
21:57 yoleaux 21:30Z <nine> flussence: absolutely. We really should install those wrappers in /usr/bin or ~/bin if we can't write to the former. The wrappers themselves are independent of Perl or module version.
21:58 flussence (or better yet, add XDG/equivalent stuff to IO::Spec alongside .tmpdir and .path and have it work off that)
21:58 dalek rakudo/nom: f5903a5 | (Stefan Seifert)++ | lib/NativeCall.pm6:
21:58 dalek rakudo/nom: Downgrade NativeCall type checks to warnings
21:58 dalek rakudo/nom:
21:58 dalek rakudo/nom: While showing real portability bugs in NativeCall using code, these checks were
21:58 dalek rakudo/nom: not present in a 6.c based release. Regardless of NativeCall being checked by
21:58 dalek rakudo/nom: the spectests, there's no reason to hurt users of code, that did work on common
21:58 dalek rakudo/nom: platforms with a previous release. The warnings complain loudly enough to alert
21:58 dalek rakudo/nom: developers of the need to fix the issues. Until that's done, users can still
21:58 dalek rakudo/nom: use the mostly working versions.
21:58 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f5903a5471
21:59 Skarsnik err
21:59 flussence ((I wish I'd known about the IO::Spec stuff before that first silly patch I wrote for .precomp stuff))
21:59 Skarsnik that will make all the test fail
21:59 RabidGravy flussence, I implemented at least some of that XDG stuff in XDG::BaseDirectory
22:00 bitmap joined #perl6
22:01 nine Skarsnik: damn...I thought, the tests passed, but that must have been a previous run. Getting tired.
22:01 Skarsnik they use lives-ok dies-ok
22:01 ugexe joined #perl6
22:02 nine flussence: IO::Path is one of my absolute favourite Perl 6 features :) It's the first time that I'm voluntarily writing platform independent code.
22:02 Skarsnik maybe you can have a var/something to force to die on that
22:02 Skarsnik but the 18 test does not have a plan. maybe make test pass?
22:02 nine Skarsnik: no, it's indeed failing
22:03 pi1 joined #perl6
22:03 Skarsnik I don't get the 'plan' thing. it's cute when you have like 20 test
22:04 mst test plans are almost always satan.
22:05 flussence TAPv14 really needs to fix that, have a way to say "keep going until I say stop" in the header instead of "until I fall off the end of this test script"
22:06 Skarsnik thre is a done-testing
22:07 RabidGravy I've become a fan of sub tests
22:07 Skarsnik it need a warn-ok x)
22:07 nine m: { warn "foo"; CONTROL { die $_};}
22:07 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: OUTPUT«foo␤  in block  at /tmp/3daMDWa5LD line 1␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/3daMDWa5LD line 1␤␤»
22:07 Skarsnik well Test
22:07 flussence m: use Test; exit; lives-ok { fail }; done-testing;
22:07 zwu joined #perl6
22:07 camelia rakudo-moar 20c796: ( no output )
22:07 nine Skarsnik: easy upgrading of warnings to failures ^^^
22:08 RabidGravy nine++ # you learn something new every day
22:09 Skarsnik CONTROL catch the warning?
22:09 nine warnings are CONTROL exceptions that can be .resume'd
22:09 zwu how to access the "static" variable defined in class as my scope? class A { my $s = "static_variable"; } . In other scope, how can we access the variable $s?
22:09 pi1 joined #perl6
22:09 _nadim I have two promises sharing a channel. one sends, one receives. the one that receives gets scheduled first. I am expecting it to block till something is send but it does not, instead it get's Any, while the other promise sends Ints.
22:10 nine It's one of those things you learn when you try to embed Perl 6 in Perl 5 despite Moar not having any embedding interface ;)
22:10 Skarsnik zwu, well it's defined as my, you need to use our if you want to make it readable with $A::s
22:11 nine Skarsnik: with such a CONTROL block all tests pass except for line 111: eval-dies-ok 'use NativeCall; sub test(Int $a) is native("fake") {*};', "Bad trait declaration";
22:11 zwu Sharsnik, thanks.
22:11 Skarsnik nine, maybe you can update 04/17.t to catch the missing version warning x)
22:11 RabidGravy zwu or provide a method (possibly rw) that closes over the vatiable
22:12 RabidGravy i.e  "class A {  my $s;  method s() is rw { $s }}"
22:12 Skarsnik nine, eval-dies-ok is an internal EVAL call in Test, that probably why
22:13 Skarsnik add the CONTROL in the eval string probably
22:13 nine Skarsnik: doesn't help. Maybe it doesn't work that way for compile time warnings
22:14 Skarsnik Oh it could be
22:14 xxpor_lap joined #perl6
22:15 ugexex joined #perl6
22:18 Skarsnik mark the test as todo? but... it's important the test that use eval work correctly ~~
22:18 masak where's the default implementation of <ws>?
22:19 masak ah, src/QRegex/P6Regex/Grammar.nqp in nqp
22:19 dalek rakudo/nom: 3568c1e | (Stefan Seifert)++ | t/04-nativecall/18-routine-sig-sanity.t:
22:19 dalek rakudo/nom: Unbust NativeCall tests broken by downgrade of type checks
22:19 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3568c1ebf0
22:19 RabidGravy or apply the trait at run-time as a sub call?
22:20 masak no, wait. that's for Perl 6 grammars :)
22:20 nine Skarsnik: I commented out the one test
22:20 nine Need to get some sleep. Good night!
22:20 ugexex pmurias: the wrapper serves as the perl6 entry point to the precompiled bin script
22:21 Skarsnik 'night nine
22:21 nine ugexex: the bin scripts are not precompiled.
22:21 ugexex ok, they used to be, and that was the purpose
22:21 nine ah, interesting
22:25 Mouq masak: nqp/src/QRegex/Cursor.nqp
22:26 vendethiel joined #perl6
22:27 _nadim When do state get initalised? I send a state, that i initialize, in a channel, the first time Any is received on the other end rather than the 0 I send.
22:28 masak Mouq: thank you.
22:29 _nadim If I move the state outside the sub, then it works fine
22:37 Mouq _nadim: state variables get initialized during the first run of a subroutine when they're encountered. I believe there's still a bug where if your first run of the routine doesn't include the state declaration, but later ones do, the variable won't be initialized
22:40 Mouq Hm. Or maybe not…
22:42 Mouq m: sub f($x) { return if $x == 1; state %h = a => 1; say %h.perl }; f 1; f 2; # there it is, RT #102994
22:42 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«{}␤»
22:42 regreg joined #perl6
22:42 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
22:45 masak Mouq: I'm semi-tempted to call that notabug
22:46 autarch what is the type of C in this code - "class C { }; say C" ?
22:46 pochi Hm, a class and a subclass can't share private implementation?
22:47 Juerd autarch: The type is C.
22:47 Skarsnik autarch, Type C?
22:47 Juerd m: class C { }; say C
22:47 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«(C)␤»
22:47 Juerd m: class C { }; say C.WHAT
22:47 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«(C)␤»
22:47 autarch hmm, not sure how to ask this. I know C is a C, but what is C a type of?
22:47 autarch there's no Class class is what I'm getting at, so what is it?
22:48 pochi Mu?
22:48 autarch it must be something more specific, right?
22:48 Juerd m: class C { }; my C $example; say $example
22:48 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«(C)␤»
22:48 pochi m: class C {}; say C.^mro
22:48 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«((C) (Any) (Mu))␤»
22:48 Mouq masak: Perhaps, but it definitely is revealing as to the workings of `state` :)
22:48 Juerd autarch: The type C evaluates to a type object, which is an undefined value that does know its type.
22:49 autarch but what type are type objects? there's no Type class either
22:49 Juerd autarch: An undefined typed variable, and the literal class identifier, are the same thing.
22:49 masak Mouq: I was a little less sure after reading the ticket. seems pugs got it right...
22:49 Mouq masak: And if notabug, IMO at least deserves documentation
22:49 autarch let me rephrase - in this code - "class C { }; class B { };" both B & C are instances of ...?
22:49 Juerd They're not instances
22:49 Mouq (not to mention testing)
22:50 autarch is it just Any?
22:50 Juerd They're types, or classes.
22:50 masak autarch: B and C are classes, not instances
22:50 masak autarch: an instance would be C.new
22:50 Skarsnik that's a good question
22:50 autarch so if I wanted to store this in an attribute, what type is the attribute?
22:50 RabidGravy the .HOW is wgat gives it's "classiness"
22:50 Juerd autarch: Compare to Perl 5: Foo->new... Foo is not an instance, it's a class name. In Perl 6, classes are declared instead of just strings
22:50 RabidGravy Mu
22:51 autarch note that I don't want to store a specific class instance (like B or C), I want to store a thing that is a package
22:51 RabidGravy yeah Mu
22:51 autarch but if I allow a Mu I'm allowing _anything_
22:51 Juerd autarch: The attribute can be C or C:U
22:51 autarch like if I'm storing info about a call stack - the call originated at $.package - what is $.package?
22:51 Skarsnik ::Mu ?
22:51 autarch bleah, that seems wrong
22:52 autarch m: class Foo { has Mu $.package }; say Foo.new( package => 42 ).package
22:52 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«42␤»
22:52 autarch yeah, that's just not helpful
22:52 Mouq Metamodel::?
22:52 RabidGravy well you could do a "subset Classy of Mu where { $_.HOW ~~ ClassHOW }"
22:52 Mouq m: package foo {}; say foo.HOW
22:52 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«Perl6::Metamodel::PackageHOW.new␤»
22:52 Skarsnik m: class Foo { has Mu:: $.package }; say Foo.new( package => 42 ).package
22:52 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«42␤»
22:52 autarch RabidGravy: yeah, that works, except it should allow modules, grammars, roles, etc.
22:53 Skarsnik m: class Foo { has ::Mu $.package }; say Foo.new( package => 42 ).package
22:53 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to $!package; expected Mu but got Int␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/lUcqBkIvD9 line 1␤␤»
22:53 Juerd autarch: If you want to store type objects, you could use the type Any:U, which accepts only undefined values. Type objects are specific kinds of undefined.
22:53 Skarsnik m: class C {}; class Foo { has ::Mu $.package }; say Foo.new( package => C ).package
22:53 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to $!package; expected Mu but got C␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/YYp_d532UO line 1␤␤»
22:53 Juerd autarch: Then you can't assign a defined value.
22:53 autarch Juerd: hmm, that might work, although it would be confusing as heck to read
22:53 Juerd m: my Any:U $example; $example = "won't";
22:53 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to $example; expected Any:U but got Str␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/W4miPS3l6W line 1␤␤»
22:53 autarch maybe I'm better off storing the meta object in this case ...
22:53 Juerd m: my Any:U $example; $example = Str;
22:53 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: ( no output )
22:55 AndyDee joined #perl6
22:55 Skarsnik RabidGravy, this does not work if you are in the class at compile time :)
22:56 autarch basically, I want to store the location _in the code base_ where an event happened - so I'd have line, file, Routine, and containing thingy - I'm getting hung up on that last bit
22:56 Juerd autarch: Types aren't locations though
22:56 autarch right, it's not a type - I think it's a package?
22:56 llfourn joined #perl6
22:56 Skarsnik maybe just store the name?
22:57 Juerd autarch: I think it is, and packages are just names, strings, iirc.
22:57 RabidGravy doesn't Backtrace or Callframe already get you some or all of that?
22:57 autarch Skarsnik: it'd be nice to at least know that the Str I'm storing is the name of a package and not some random thing
22:57 espadrine joined #perl6
22:57 autarch RabidGravy: Great question - I'll look
22:57 geekosaur $?PACKAGE ?
22:58 RabidGravy m: package F { }; say F.HOW
22:58 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«Perl6::Metamodel::PackageHOW.new␤»
22:58 Juerd autarch: Do you have that for filenames, though? That it is a filename instead of just a name? In general, global namespaces tend to just have strings.
22:58 RabidGravy m: package F { }; say F.HOW.^mro
22:58 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«((PackageHOW) (Any) (Mu))␤»
22:58 geekosaur m: class C { method x () { $?PACKAGE } } C.new.x.say
22:58 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/1gKAGuHjQy␤Strange text after block (missing semicolon or comma?)␤at /tmp/1gKAGuHjQy:1␤------> 3class C { method x () { $?PACKAGE } }7⏏5 C.new.x.say␤    expecting any of:␤        infix␤       …»
22:58 autarch CallFrame looks very useful - it's not listed on the docs site
22:58 geekosaur whoops
22:58 geekosaur m: class C { method x () { $?PACKAGE } }; C.new.x.say
22:58 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«(C)␤»
22:58 geekosaur hm, maybe not
23:00 autarch unfortunately Callframe doesn't store the package either ;)
23:00 Mouq autarch: I don't think Callframe is an official Perl 6 class
23:01 autarch it's in the rakudo/core dir - that doesn't mean official?
23:01 RabidGravy one of those has a block method which has package
23:01 RabidGravy well
23:01 Mouq autarch: as in, not part of the official public API. AKA there's no tests in Roast for it
23:01 autarch I see
23:01 RabidGravy m:   say callframe;
23:01 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«/tmp/1r_lW3cnn0 at line 1␤»
23:01 Skarsnik could still be useful to be documented somewhere
23:01 RabidGravy m:   say callframe.WHAT;
23:01 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«(CallFrame)␤»
23:02 autarch and I note that Backtrace does not use CallFrame at all, instead implementing it's own Backtrace::Frame class
23:02 Juerd autarch: Also, not everything's documented just yet :(
23:02 Skarsnik like NC is rakudo but documented x)
23:02 autarch Juerd: believe me, I've noticed ;)
23:02 Mouq Oh, my be, callframe is in Roast
23:02 RabidGravy so if callframe is "official"  CallFrame is :)
23:02 Mouq my bad*
23:02 Juerd autarch: Yeah. I'm just saying it so you know it's not you :)
23:02 autarch heh, I never assume it's me
23:02 Juerd autarch: I was questioning my own ability to search.
23:03 autarch I've learned to fallback to opening up rakudo/core and digging around as needed
23:04 Mouq I was thinking last night about having something to do a basic parse of src/core and crosscheck that with doc to see what's declared but not documented
23:04 RabidGravy that's the nice thing about the way rakudo is made, it is easy to do that
23:05 Juerd Mouq: Sounds like a good idea!
23:06 autarch yeah, I really do appreciate that - though sometimes the nqp::fleeblebroxglubber stuff gets a bit confusing
23:07 RabidGravy yeah and you look in nqp and it's actually a moarvm Op and off down the rabbithole
23:07 leont joined #perl6
23:08 Mouq FWIW NQP has most of its operators documented: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/blob/master/docs/ops.markdown
23:08 Skarsnik Does MoarVM has some doc on its C struct?
23:09 autarch heh, I think Backtrace doesn't work as written ... or I'm losing it (totally possible)
23:09 autarch m: sub foo { return Backtrace.new }; my $bt = foo; say $bt[0].code; say $bt[0].package
23:09 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«->  { #`(Block|70813648) ... }␤Method 'package' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/gMpDBsSIj5 line 1␤␤»
23:09 autarch internally Backtrace::Frame tries to call "$.code.package"
23:10 RabidGravy yeah, I think I found that and had to do some additional test
23:11 autarch Backtrace doesn't seem to be very well tested in roast from a quick grep
23:11 _nadim Mouq: thanks, that must be it :)
23:13 lucasb joined #perl6
23:14 _nadim Bleaaah, double free or corruption and SIGABRT. Now this is not something I can golf down. the code itself is very short but it uses a  module. what do I do with it?
23:15 _nadim I wrote +@rendering, I meant @renderings.lines. he first crashes, the second not
23:15 masak 'night, #perl6
23:15 _nadim night masak
23:16 pochi m: class X::Grrr is Exception {}; say X::Grrr.WHAT
23:16 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«(Grrr)␤»
23:16 pochi why not (X::Grrr) ?
23:17 autarch so it looks like $code.package is _sometimes_ set, at least for Routine objects, but this attribute isn't documented
23:19 Mouq 'night masak! Your latest blog posts and advent article were fantastic btw ^^
23:20 lucasb m: sub f { fail }; my $x = f; say 'hi'
23:20 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«hi␤»
23:21 lucasb m: my $x = fail; say 'hi'
23:21 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: OUTPUT«Failed␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/jwigvqvgsK line 1␤␤»
23:22 lucasb ^^ known issue, right?
23:30 jshy joined #perl6
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23:40 vendethiel what's Perl 6's equivalent to Perl 5's continue?
23:40 TimToady NEXT
23:41 vendethiel thanks :)
23:42 dalek tablets: dc8a66a | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-a-index.txt:
23:42 dalek tablets: took over some minor grammar flattenings from decasm++
23:42 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/dc8a66a0ab
23:53 lucasb nevermind my previous question about 'fail'. I see that 'fail' immediately throws the exception unless it's a return value
23:53 lucasb m: my $x = Exception.new.fail; say 'hi'
23:53 camelia rakudo-moar 3568c1: ( no output )
23:54 lucasb ^^ but what about this? if it's not an issue, at least is LTA, because no message to the user is print
23:54 Kcop joined #perl6
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23:57 siriu5b_ joined #perl6
23:57 lucasb see this method: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/src/core/Exception.pm#L80-L86
23:57 lucasb and this commit by jnthn: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3128db83ae62e9fee2c108f18bda9eff9d239cd8
23:57 klapperl_ joined #perl6
23:57 llfourn joined #perl6
23:57 lucasb so I wonder if the method Exception.fail should be handled like that jnthn's commit
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