Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2016-01-04

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 lucasb Most subs and methods in core P6 doesn't have a explicit return type constraint. But we all expect them to return sensible values. I'm not talking about return values in this .subst-mutate case. I'm talking about its side-effects: should it coerce the type of the subject to string or not.
00:02 RabidGravy timotimo, it just hits nanosleep and doesn't return
00:03 Rotwang RabidGravy: my last attempt: puts
00:03 Rotwang : use NativeCall; sub puts(Str) is native returns int32 { * }; await start { puts("dupa") } xx 15
00:03 Rotwang m: use NativeCall; sub puts(Str) is native returns int32 { * }; await start { puts("dupa") } xx 15
00:03 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«(signal SEGV)»
00:03 Rotwang if it doesn't convince you, nothing will [:
00:04 Rotwang but, even if the function isn't thread safe, rakudo shouldn't crash
00:04 RabidGravy Rotwang,  "const char *" argument
00:04 flussence that one works locally
00:04 Rotwang RabidGravy: so what?
00:05 Rotwang RabidGravy: whats wrong with const cahr?
00:05 Rotwang RabidGravy: you can't disagree with it, posix defines it as thread safe
00:05 Rotwang it doesn't mess the internal rakudo loop
00:05 Rotwang it just print to stodut
00:05 RabidGravy and it works fine here strangely
00:05 Rotwang and const char is a string in c
00:05 Rotwang RabidGravy: try with more promises
00:05 Rotwang many times
00:05 Rotwang you'll hit it at some point
00:06 flussence I tried xx 3000
00:06 Skarsnik did you gdb where it crash?
00:06 Rotwang Skarsnik: I have a coredump
00:06 Rotwang it is 300MB [;
00:07 Skarsnik Well good night, time to read/write ponies x)
00:08 RabidGravy woah, I do have a real genuine, non-threadsafe thing right in Rakudo though
00:08 flussence tried xx 999_999 too, just to be sure. oddly it's only using half my cores
00:09 flussence eating quite a lot of RAM though...
00:09 RabidGravy m:  use NativeCall; await start { my $a = "dubba"; explicitly-manage($a); } xx 15
00:09 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«Could not spawn thread: errorcode -1␤»
00:09 Rotwang http://paste.lisp.org/display/304494
00:09 Rotwang old coredump when I was playing with ssl
00:10 RabidGravy ah, I think camelia might be shagged up
00:10 leont AFAIK start uses a thread-pool, default max is something like 16?
00:10 RabidGravy m:  use NativeCall; await start { my $a = "dubba"; explicitly-manage($a); } xx 7
00:10 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«Incompatible MROs in P6opaque rebless␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/ual55YTupL line 1␤␤»
00:10 RabidGravy that ^
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00:11 RabidGravy now that my friends is a genuine, incontrovertible bug in rakudo without any dodgy native call antics required
00:11 RabidGravy leont++ # yes thank you
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00:12 RabidGravy It should really adjust itself somehow
00:12 RabidGravy may even be 8 by default
00:13 Skarsnik damn the explicitmanaged role is private in nc x)
00:14 RabidGravy but I'm going to RT that one as that is quite scary
00:15 timotimo RabidGravy: "doesn't return" is something with a very special meaning; is thatr eally what you meant?
00:15 RabidGravy yes
00:15 RabidGravy straced it
00:15 RabidGravy it doesn't return from nanosleep
00:15 timotimo in that case it can really mess with moarvm; but why wouldn't it return?
00:17 RabidGravy nanosleep may block the whole process not just the thread for instance
00:17 Skarsnik wtf is explicitly-manage
00:17 Skarsnik why does is create a new type
00:18 RabidGravy I'm not in the mood to look in the Linux kernel to find out how nanosleep works
00:18 flussence RabidGravy: doesn't return ever?
00:19 RabidGravy well,   greater than 100 times longer than I asked it to sleep
00:19 flussence ouch
00:19 RabidGravy I got bored after that
00:19 leont nanosleep shouldn't other threads, really
00:19 leont *sleep
00:20 timotimo shouldn't other threads? :)
00:20 RabidGravy yeah, you wouldn't have thought so
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00:23 orbus stumbling into the middle of a conversation, but the manpage in ubuntu says nanosleep should only make the current thread sleep
00:23 orbus it uses the term "calling thread" several times
00:24 orbus actually I guess it only *implies* it should only make the calling thread sleep
00:24 orbus it doesn't really say anything about its effect on other threads :p
00:25 RabidGravy yeah, it's surprising, but that's definitely what I'm seeing
00:28 orbus m: say $*KERNEL
00:28 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«linux (3.16.6.2.default)␤»
00:28 orbus hrm, camelia has a newer kernel than me, so if it's a kernel bug it's not a new one
00:30 orbus I was able to reproduce your failed test on freebsd, for whatever that's worth
00:30 orbus same error
00:31 orbus actually that's on a single core vm so if it's a concurrency problem I'm not sure I'd expect it to show up there
00:31 orbus unless the vm layer is doing something funny behind the scenes
00:33 RabidGravy no the kernel I have is even more recent
00:33 orbus it does it on freebsd too, so it's not just linux
00:37 * orbus afks
00:37 RabidGravy yeah, it's in moarvm/libuv/pthread
00:37 flussence there was a bug with early versions of promises where the perl6-land sleep() would block every thread too, wonder if it's the same bug
00:38 RabidGravy entirely possible
00:39 RabidGravy I've RT'd the explicitly-manage thing as https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=127145
00:40 RabidGravy I'll have a better look at the nanosleep thing in the morning
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00:41 RabidGravy and if I can reproduce that I'll RT that too
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00:42 timotimo RabidGravy: camelia actually runs on a computer with 8 cores or so
00:42 Juerd m: my uint $a = 255; say ++$a;
00:42 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«256␤»
00:42 Juerd eh
00:42 Juerd m: my uint8 $a = 255; say ++$a;
00:42 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«0␤»
00:42 Juerd m: my uint8 $a = 255; say $a; ++$a; say $a;
00:42 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«255␤256␤»
00:43 Juerd Is ++$a in sink context implemented differently?
00:43 timotimo Juerd: i'm a bit surprised because ++ is implemented in terms of $foo = $foo + 1
00:43 timotimo oh
00:43 timotimo oh, yeah, timtoady put something in the optimizer for that
00:44 RabidGravy timotimo, but with a ulimit on memory/threads or whatever?  There does seem to be a hard constraint that I don't see here
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00:44 timotimo don't know about that
00:45 RabidGravy TBH I wouldn't take camelia as gospel on stuff like this anyway
00:45 pkr Good morning!
00:45 RabidGravy oops so it is
00:46 pkr Is this the right channel for a question regarding panda installer?
00:46 gfldex it is
00:47 timotimo that's right
00:48 timotimo i meant that as an answer to RabidGravy talking about camelia, but it also fits as an answer for the other thing
00:48 pkr I am just experimenting with it and wanted to find a remove option. Did not find one. Is there a way to remove a module not only from disk but also from the database list?
00:48 RabidGravy not currently
00:49 pkr After removing I would like to see only the name without status "Installed".
00:49 Juerd How do you run a test file manually, in a way that skips the "#?rakudo skip" things?
00:49 skids perl6 testfile.t
00:49 Juerd skids: That doesn't skip that thing
00:49 skids Not if you run the unfudged file
00:49 RabidGravy you need to run the test fudging thing
00:50 skids Oh you want to skip, sorry
00:50 Juerd Where do I find that, or documentation about it?
00:50 pkr I have installed Net::Curl but want to use the option --path in order to install it in /opt/rakudobrew all together wit perl6.
00:50 skids fudgeall rakudo file.t
00:50 skids (or rakudo.moar or something)
00:50 RabidGravy right, way past my bed-time, mouse and pumpkin already legged it
00:51 RabidGravy have fun
00:51 skids fudgeall is in roast which is c/o'ed in t/spec and it is in the base dir.
00:51 Juerd Thanks
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00:52 skids you may have to PERL6LIB=./packages (from roast cwd)
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01:47 tadzik hoelzro++'s rakudo hacking video is superawesome :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adUdmol7cLU
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02:12 awwaiid m: thing: "string" # what does this mean? it doesn't crash, and seems to return "string"
02:12 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for /tmp/ZpmE8PW1JK:␤Useless use of constant string "string" in sink context (line 1)␤»
02:13 skids awwaiid: a label?
02:14 awwaiid skids: looks like a label. do we have labels?
02:14 skids Somewhat.
02:15 gfldex https://doc.perl6.org/language/control#LABELs
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02:16 awwaiid yep; --target=ast shows a LABEL in there somewhere. great, another ':'!
02:16 gfldex the example aint that good. It's ment to be used to jump out of nested loops
02:16 awwaiid yeah, like in P5
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02:18 skids It is a pretty old page but... http://www.perlfoundation.org​/perl6/index.cgi?witch_colon  # All the colons, some time ago.
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02:26 dalek doc: a2356a0 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/control.pod:
02:26 dalek doc: better example for LABELs
02:26 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/a2356a05fc
02:26 dalek doc: 3ba293c | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/control.pod:
02:26 dalek doc: Merge pull request #314 from gfldex/master
02:26 dalek doc:
02:26 dalek doc: better example for LABELs
02:26 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/3ba293c097
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02:47 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
02:50 awwaiid troydm: there is a built-in event system using whenever blocks. Pretty different approach than POE though, I think. Room for contributions.
02:50 skids troydm: Perl 6 has it's own concurrency stuff built in.  You can graft other event systems in using it.
02:51 sammers good morning from Japan... question about modules...
02:51 troydm awwaiid: ic, okey
02:52 awwaiid How can I slurp ALL the arguments of a sub? I feel like sub foo(**@args){...} is supposed to do it, maybe I'm not using it right. I call foo(:x) and it doesn't do what I expect
02:52 troydm I haven't studied p6 concurrency yet,, i guess i'll take a closer look
02:52 skids awwaiid: sub foo(|c) { } will get a capture including nameds
02:52 sammers what are the advantages of using `unit module Foo::Bar` vs `class Foo::Bar {...}` when creating a module?
02:53 awwaiid skids: ok, I'll look into that
02:54 skids sammers: personally, I think just indenting.  But it might help the compiler improve error messages too.
02:54 sammers to use Class?
02:54 skids No to use unit
02:54 sammers also, is there a way to include a local module using the full path?
02:54 sammers ok
02:54 skids Oh, you would use "unit class"
02:54 sammers ah
02:54 skids module versus class is a different matter
02:54 sammers ok
02:57 gfldex sammers: you may want to have operators defined outside of the class, if you can't define a namespace that ain't class, where would you do that?
02:58 sammers ok, this is probably a dumb question, in regards to p6 being multi-paradigm "Perl 6 offers procedural, object-oriented AND functional programming methodologies." are there any examples of a module being completely written fp?
02:58 gfldex sammers: there may also be constants and other stuff you may want to export, that don't belong into a class
02:59 gfldex sammers: i have one that is nearly written FP, would that help?
02:59 sammers gfldex: that was going to be my next question
02:59 sammers gfldex, that would be great.
02:59 sammers I just want to compare these paradigms in p6...
02:59 gfldex https://github.com/gfldex/pod-to-bigpa​ge/blob/master/lib/Pod/To/BigPage.pm6
03:00 gfldex i pulled the counter out into a class because functional counting with concurrency is beyond my brains capabilities
03:00 awwaiid skids: interesitng. so if I do foo(|c) and then mess with c, I can either c.list or c.hash. I'd love to be able to call foo(:a, 5, 2, :zoo) and get those params as-is
03:01 gfldex sammers: also, that module got two entry points, depending on how you use it, see the README.md
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03:02 skids awwaiid: when inside .() named order is not preserved and duplicae names will cancel previous names.  That's just the calling convention.  If you need to work outside it you need to pass an array at the top level instead, or find some way to do something slangy.
03:04 awwaiid skids: ok, thanks. I'm trying to do something slightly devious anyway, so that makes sense. I'm trying to pretend that a :foo pair is a ruby symbol, so I can do '[2, 4, 6, 8]':rb.push([:foo]).to_s and get "[2, 4, 6, 8, :foo]" back from ruby. Well -- I want to do .push(:foo) instead of .push([:foo]), that is.
03:06 skids awwaiid: Pair.new might work.
03:07 sammers gfldex: thanks for sharing this, so as modules go we don't need to declare that it is a module anywhere, `unit class` works as well?
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03:07 skids class is a module is a package.
03:08 gfldex there is a class called BigPage around everything, what is a requirement for a POD renderer that is supposed to work together with rakudo
03:08 gfldex rakudo will do the parsing and then call render with the POD::* tree
03:12 sammers ah, ok, so if there is a module tree already available, in this case POD::, you can create a branch under it using the same namespace...
03:12 sammers does that work for any module tree? or only core?
03:12 gfldex any
03:13 sammers ok
03:14 sammers is it ok to do `unit module Foo::Bar` for everything? without class? then just put all of the subs in the same file, then have other files that represent other branches? (Foo::Bar::Something, Foo::Bar::SomethingElse) without using class anywhere?
03:15 gfldex that will work
03:15 sammers is there any downside to doing it that way?
03:16 sammers I guess what I am asking, is using `class` really just for convention?
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03:17 gfldex a class is not just a namespace and it's getting a little late to name all properties of class on IRC
03:17 sammers yeah, understood.
03:17 skids sammers: class is where all the OO paradigm gets pulled in.  With just a module, all you have is subs.
03:18 skids no instances, no methods, no inheritance, no roles.
03:19 gfldex you can mixin rols into any object
03:20 ugexe m: my %x = :a(1,2,3), :b(4); say %x<a b>; # how do i get (1, 2, 3, 4)?
03:20 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«((1 2 3) 4)␤»
03:21 sammers can you do something like `unit module Foo::Bar does Something`?
03:22 gfldex m: `unit module Foo::Bar does Int;
03:22 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/isOO7kzsd_␤Bogus statement␤at /tmp/isOO7kzsd_:1␤------> 3<BOL>7⏏5`unit module Foo::Bar does Int;␤    expecting any of:␤        prefix␤        term␤»
03:22 gfldex nope
03:22 ugexe thats called monkey typing essentially
03:22 gfldex m: unit module Foo::Bar does Int;
03:22 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/Uau8ASzYD4␤Int is not composable, so Foo::Bar cannot compose it␤at /tmp/Uau8ASzYD4:1␤»
03:22 sammers ok, I guess it really wouldn't make sense like that...
03:23 skids m: my %x = :a(1,2,3), :b(4); say (%x<a b>).map(*.flat).flat.perl;
03:23 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 3, 4).Seq␤»
03:24 ugexe heh, uglier than i hoped, but ill take it
03:25 skids ugexe: I suspect there will be a final GLR tidy-up where we get a $-busting version of .flat or some things cease to itemize.
03:26 skids Because Array.flat is kinda a useless noop right now.
03:27 ugexe so ive noticed
03:27 skids In the meantime the pain may help stop people from returning mutable Arras from modules that do not need to.
03:41 skids .oO(Maybe a "do not itemize" adverb on .[] and .{})
03:43 skids Though I guess that would be more "deitemize"
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03:57 sammers ok, regarding packaging, to do a fp module and package subroutines in separate files, you just create each file as its own module in the same namespace?
04:00 sammers or for that matter, a strictly prcedural paradigm module.
04:02 skids m: package foo { sub a is export { 42.say } }; package foo { sub b is export { 43.say } }; import foo; a(); b(); # Yeah looks like that might work
04:02 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«42␤43␤»
04:03 sammers ok, interesting.
04:04 sammers I am really just asking out of curiosity... is there a way to include a local file using full file path?
04:04 Zoffix Are we able to change keywords? Like to rename `sub` to `λ` ?
04:05 sammers I want to see how to go about doing each of these paradigms in p6 before mixing or before just juming in OOP like most modules I have seen.
04:16 llfourn Zoffix: you'd have to make a slang. If you wanted to to make λ {}  to what class {} does you probably could with EXPORTHOW
04:17 Zoffix Thanks. That's out of my depth for now :P
04:20 llfourn Zoffix: it's not so difficult. I can't wait till we get an official way to do it without use nqp; though.
04:21 skids sammers: there's a runtime "require" that takes filenames but it is not good for use pulling in packages, because it is runtime.  Might be an area less implemented at the moment.  Most folks don't use absolute paths.
04:22 llfourn skids: require will pull in packages you just have to access them like ::('foo')
04:22 llfourn has worked for me in the past at least
04:24 Zoffix m: require ::('Test'); say Test::is 42
04:24 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«Could not find symbol '&is'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/uaVbYNnjTR line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/uaVbYNnjTR line 1␤␤»
04:24 sammers skids: thanks, I just wanted to be able to do this for quick tests.
04:25 llfourn m: require ::('Test') <&ok>; say &ok;
04:25 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for /tmp/3fPaxGr996:␤Useless use of constant string "Test" in sink context (lines 1, 1)␤sub ok (;; Mu | is raw) { #`(Sub|82911400) ... }␤»
04:25 llfourn heh that's a sink bug IMO
04:25 Zoffix m: require ::('Test') <&ok>; say &ok 42;
04:25 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/ZBpbW7kIwO␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/ZBpbW7kIwO:1␤------> 3require ::('Test') <&ok>; say &ok7⏏5 42;␤    expecting any of:␤        infix␤        infix stopper␤        postfix␤        state…»
04:25 Zoffix m: require ::('Test') <&ok>; say ok 42;
04:25 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for /tmp/47xzMf6arj:␤Useless use of constant string "Test" in sink context (lines 1, 1)␤ok 1 - ␤True␤»
04:25 * Zoffix rakudobugs it
04:27 llfourn Zoffix++
04:27 Zoffix .tell TimToady unless someone else looked into it, there's a wrong useless sink context warning: https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=127147
04:27 yoleaux Zoffix: I'll pass your message to TimToady.
04:28 llfourn m: require ::('Test'); ::('Test').WHO<&ok>.(42) #this shouold work too
04:28 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«Cannot find method 'Any'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/rzitCFnFEJ line 1␤␤»
04:29 llfourn ah no Test must not be unit module Test;
04:29 llfourn m: require ::('Test'); ::('&ok').(42) #this shouold work too
04:29 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«No such symbol '&ok'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/kYHVYllCYq line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/kYHVYllCYq line 1␤␤»
04:29 Zoffix It is https://github.com/rakudo/rak​udo/blob/nom/lib/Test.pm6#L3
04:30 llfourn hmmm
04:31 llfourn actually yeah -- it's not our (of course). Anyway I thought the above should work :\
04:31 llfourn actually no it shouldn't all good :D
04:31 llfourn require doesn't do import without args
04:34 llfourn m: require ::('Test'); ::('Test').WHO<&todo_output>.() #this will work though because it's our sub
04:34 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: ( no output )
04:40 Zoffix m: say [+] ^1000 .grep: * %% (3|5); say [+] grep * %% (3|5), ^1000;
04:40 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«(499500)␤233168␤»
04:40 Zoffix Shouldn't these two be the same answers?
04:44 Zoffix Ah no. the metaop is tighter than method call
04:46 Zoffix m: say [+] (^1000 .grep: * %% 3);
04:46 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/tYXxUGomCe␤Confused␤at /tmp/tYXxUGomCe:1␤------> 3say [+] (^1000 .7⏏5grep: * %% 3);␤»
04:46 Zoffix m: say ^1000 .grep: * %% 3;
04:46 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«(0 3 6 9 12 15 18 21 24 27 30 33 36 39 42 45 48 51 54 57 60 63 66 69 72 75 78 81 84 87 90 93 96 99 102 105 108 111 114 117 120 123 126 129 132 135 138 141 144 147 150 153 156 159 162 165 168 171 174 177 180 183 186 189 192 195 198 201 204 207 210 213 216 2…»
04:46 Zoffix # confused -_-
04:47 skids m: (^1000 .grep: * %% (3|5)).perl eq (grep * %% (3|5), ^1000).perl # LTA
04:47 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for /tmp/KXqry2vNkO:␤Useless use of "eq" in expression ".perl eq (grep * %% (3|5), ^1000).perl" in sink context (line 1)␤»
04:48 skids m: say (^1000 .grep: * %% (3|5)).perl eq (grep * %% (3|5), ^1000).perl
04:48 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«True␤»
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04:57 Zoffix LTA?
04:57 Zoffix Seems right on target.
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05:03 skids In that the expression is partial
05:04 skids Though I guess you'd have to abbreviate at some point
05:04 Zoffix Ah
05:05 Zoffix I think by the time it gets to eq it already evaluated the first (...).perl and just got .perl to go on by *shrug*
05:06 skids Maybe "NEA" (Not Entirely Awesome)
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05:15 moritz skids: or NFA: Not Fully Awesome :-)
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05:30 konobi TimToady: so, there's actually a TAP community going on now... have any suggestions on who to invite there? (other than perl5 folks who are already there)
05:32 skids Leont and tadzik both have made harness modules.
05:37 tadzik I think leont's one actually works :)
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06:15 AlexDaniel .tell RabidGravy i²c library? Great! I will probably need that in a week or two, good that it's not something I will have to do myself… ;)
06:15 yoleaux AlexDaniel: I'll pass your message to RabidGravy.
06:22 CIAvash joined #perl6
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07:04 [Tux] csv-ip5xs        50000    18.315    18.196
07:04 [Tux] test             50000    23.872    23.753
07:04 [Tux] test-t           50000    13.218    13.099
07:04 [Tux] csv-parser       50000    50.070    49.951
07:12 cxreg are feed operators still a thing?  I just remembered them, and haven't seen anyone talking about them at all lately
07:13 FROGGS joined #perl6
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07:23 cxreg helping jeek with some beginner perl6, I can't explain this:
07:23 cxreg https://gist.github.com/cxreg/62f04e703c90f34b418a
07:23 CIAvash cxreg: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/p​erl6/2015-12-28#i_11788974 http://irclog.perlgeek.de/p​erl6/2015-12-23#i_11762672
07:24 cxreg each time the code runs, some random subset of the handle() calls print an (Any)
07:25 cxreg maybe a misunderstanding about the scheduler guarantees?
07:25 cxreg CIAvash: cool thanks
07:27 masak morning, #perl6
07:27 masak I'd like to flag up http://blogs.perl.org/users/jt_smith/2​015/12/christmas-came-bah-humbug.html
07:27 masak (as being interesting and relevant)
07:27 masak especially john napiorkowski's comment: http://blogs.perl.org/users/jt_smith/2015/12/c​hristmas-came-bah-humbug.html#comment-1645571
07:30 cxreg i was going to comment on JT's blog but I didn't see anywhere to comment
07:30 cxreg thanks
07:33 cxreg masak: napiorkowski's comment resonates and a lot of people will feel that way
07:34 cxreg but as has long been the case, the only way to win the haters is to ship a must-have application
07:34 cxreg everything else is hot air
07:34 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
07:35 cxreg i think it's a waste of time to try to convince the emigrating "perl 5 old guys" to look back, they'll do what they will
07:36 kjones_ Should the following work?
07:36 kjones_ my $n = "0.0";
07:36 kjones_ say "\$n is a string " ~ $n.WHAT;
07:36 kjones_ I get:
07:36 kjones_ Use of uninitialized value of type Str in string context
07:37 kjones_ I can of course say $n.WHAT on its own and it works fine.
07:39 cxreg m: my $n = "foo"; Str($n.WHAT).say;
07:39 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value of type Str in string context␤Any of .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can stringify undefined things, if needed.  in block <unit> at /tmp/LCq6_Hq6Zw line 1␤␤»
07:39 cxreg m: my $n; Str($n.WHAT);
07:39 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context␤Any of .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can stringify undefined things, if needed.  in block <unit> at /tmp/uIWsXJIToe line 1␤»
07:40 cxreg o_O maybe a .WHAT doesn't stringify
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07:42 cxreg m: my $n = "0.0"; say "\$n is a string ", $n.WHAT;
07:42 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«$n is a string (Str)␤»
07:42 AlexDaniel m: my $n = "foo"; say ‘ok’ if defined $n.WHAT
07:42 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: ( no output )
07:42 AlexDaniel m: my $n = "foo"; say $n.WHAT.WHAT
07:42 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«(Str)␤»
07:42 average joined #perl6
07:43 AlexDaniel cxreg: so, it seems like WHAT just returns a type object
07:43 AlexDaniel if I'm understanding it correctly
07:43 cxreg $kyles-mom.WHAT.WHAT.WHAT
07:44 AlexDaniel m: Str(Str);
07:44 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for /tmp/seRQHtWlpc:␤Useless use of constant value Str(Str) in sink context (line 1)␤»
07:44 AlexDaniel m: say Str(Str);
07:44 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«Method 'shortname' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6::Metamodel::CoercionHOW'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/INU5zfp_l5 line 1␤␤»
07:45 AlexDaniel m: my $n = Str; say Str($n)
07:45 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value $n of type Str in string context␤Any of .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can stringify undefined things, if needed.  in block <unit> at /tmp/S4AZ49bKM9 line 1␤␤»
07:45 AlexDaniel there we go
07:45 AlexDaniel hmm, no, it's different. It says “of type Str”
07:45 dalek rakudo/nom: 503fbba | skids++ | src/core/ (2 files):
07:45 dalek rakudo/nom: Add a :&where parameter to control how where clauses are gistperled
07:45 dalek rakudo/nom:
07:45 dalek rakudo/nom:   If this returns Nil, the whole gistperl returns Nil, which can be
07:45 dalek rakudo/nom:   used to detect where clauses when you want them to matter, such as
07:45 dalek rakudo/nom:   in the metamodel Signature comparator to prevent false conflicts.
07:45 dalek rakudo/nom:   Do so, fixing RT#127024 and RT#127025.
07:45 dalek rakudo/nom:
07:45 dalek rakudo/nom:   Whether Signature eqv Signature should be changed to do this as
07:45 dalek rakudo/nom:   well is TBD.
07:45 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/503fbba45e
07:45 dalek rakudo/nom: de40f3a | niner++ | src/core/ (2 files):
07:45 dalek rakudo/nom: Merge pull request #672 from skids/roles
07:45 dalek rakudo/nom:
07:45 dalek rakudo/nom: Add a :&where parameter to control how where clauses are gistperled
07:45 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/de40f3a3c9
07:46 cxreg AlexDaniel: any idea on that gist i pasted earlier?
07:46 domidumont joined #perl6
07:46 AlexDaniel let's see
07:47 cxreg as many as 100% of the lines will end up like "[Channel.new (Any)]"
07:47 cxreg but usually 1 or 2
07:47 cxreg i suspect some race condition around how start() works but the docs are very not clear on that
07:47 AlexDaniel m: https://gitlab.com/snippets/12832
07:48 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«[Channel.new (Any)]␤[Channel.new Channel.new]␤[Channel.new (Any)]␤[Channel.new Channel.new]␤[Channel.new Channel.new]␤[Channel.new (Any)]␤[Channel.new (Any)]␤[Channel.new Channel.new]␤[Channel.new Channel.new]␤»
07:48 AlexDaniel m: https://gitlab.com/snippets/12832
07:48 camelia rakudo-moar e95c62: OUTPUT«[Channel.new (Any)]␤[Channel.new (Any)]␤[Channel.new Channel.new]␤[Channel.new (Any)]␤[Channel.new (Any)]␤[Channel.new (Any)]␤[Channel.new (Any)]␤[Channel.new (Any)]␤[Channel.new (Any)]␤»
07:48 cxreg yeah, there we go
07:49 kjones_ Thanks, it's a learning experience to see how you poke around with code.
07:49 cxreg kjones_: I'm not sure we know the correct answer though, sorry
07:54 FROGGS m: $n = "0.0"; say "\$n is a string " ~ $n.^name;
07:54 camelia rakudo-moar de40f3: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/x7NHjpTb0i␤Variable '$n' is not declared␤at /tmp/x7NHjpTb0i:1␤------> 3<BOL>7⏏5$n = "0.0"; say "\$n is a string " ~ $n.␤»
07:54 FROGGS m: my $n = "0.0"; say "\$n is a string " ~ $n.^name;
07:54 camelia rakudo-moar de40f3: OUTPUT«$n is a string Str␤»
07:54 FROGGS kjones_: ^^ this is how you'd do that
07:55 kjones_ That's fine. I'm just learning some Perl6 and I was never a Perl5 expert. I have the Perl Cookbook 2nd edition, so I thought I would start translating some of the code in section 1.0 into Perl6. But I didn't want it to be a literal translation. So, I started looking at the introspection features of Perl6 when I was looking at the code on page 2 of chapter 1. That section deals with the truthiness of strings and coersion.  Anyways,
07:55 kjones_ thanks for your help.
07:55 FROGGS kjones_: .WHAT gives you back a type, which is meant to warn if you interpolate or concat it or do math with it
07:55 kjones_ Ok, thanks. That makes sense.
07:55 nine .tell timotimo camelia runs in a VM with 4 CPUs on a server with 8 cores
07:55 yoleaux nine: I'll pass your message to timotimo.
07:56 pjscott joined #perl6
07:58 cxreg FROGGS++
07:58 AlexDaniel m: my $c = [ Channel.new for ^10 ]; for 2..10 { start { say ($c[$_-1], $c[$_]) }; }; sleep 1;
07:58 camelia rakudo-moar de40f3: OUTPUT«(Channel.new (Any))␤(Channel.new Channel.new)␤(Channel.new Channel.new)␤(Channel.new Channel.new)␤(Channel.new Channel.new)␤(Channel.new Channel.new)␤(Channel.new Channel.new)␤(Channel.new Channel.new)␤(Channel.new Channel.new)␤»
07:58 AlexDaniel golfed down a little bit
08:01 cxreg AlexDaniel: i tried toying with the promises returned from start and that didn't help
08:01 cxreg not sure why it would though
08:02 cxreg AlexDaniel: ok in your golfed version, only slot 10 has Any (as it should)
08:02 cxreg it comes back in random order due to threadpool
08:03 cxreg so that seems to not have the problem
08:03 nine .tell awwaiid Congrats on your progress on Inline::Ruby! Piece of advice: don't map language constructs in one language to constructs in the other language unless they really match semantically. Because one day someone will use code that looks very closely and discovers you cheating.
08:03 yoleaux nine: I'll pass your message to awwaiid.
08:03 adhoc joined #perl6
08:03 cxreg nine: so he should use more primitive constructs, is what you're saying?
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08:08 cxreg AlexDaniel: it seems to be the start block closing over $i that's the problem
08:08 cxreg the value of $i in there is undefined
08:08 cxreg er
08:08 cxreg non-guaranteed
08:09 cxreg when you switched to $_ it removed the bug
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08:09 AlexDaniel cxreg: yes. But why?
08:10 cxreg because it's an outer-scoped variable that's being closed over
08:10 AlexDaniel right
08:10 cxreg so it's the  same container used in multiple threads
08:10 AlexDaniel indeed
08:11 cxreg thus race condition depending when the threadpool picked it up vs what $i was at the time?  makes sense now.  I just with the compiler warned you when you did it.
08:11 average left #perl6
08:12 cxreg seems like for 2..9 -> $i { ... } also doesn't have the problem, probably because $i is scoped to the loop block
08:12 AlexDaniel so if you do 「my $x = $i」 then it is fixed
08:12 AlexDaniel or that
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08:14 AlexDaniel m: my $c = ^10; loop (my $i = 2; $i <= 10; $i++) { start { say ($c[$i-1], $c[$i]) }; }; sleep 1;
08:14 camelia rakudo-moar de40f3: OUTPUT«(Nil Nil)␤(3 Nil)␤(8 Nil)␤(2 Nil)␤(5 Nil)␤(9 Nil)␤(Nil Nil)␤(7 Nil)␤(Nil Nil)␤»
08:14 AlexDaniel m: my $c = ^10; loop (my $i = 2; $i <= 10; $i++) { my $x = $i; start { say ($c[$x-1], $c[$x]) }; }; sleep 1;
08:14 camelia rakudo-moar de40f3: OUTPUT«(9 Nil)␤(7 8)␤(1 2)␤(8 9)␤(2 3)␤(6 7)␤(4 5)␤(5 6)␤(3 4)␤»
08:16 AlexDaniel m: my $c = ^10; for 2..10 -> $i { start { say ($c[$i-1], $c[$i]) }; }; sleep 1
08:16 camelia rakudo-moar de40f3: OUTPUT«(3 4)␤(6 7)␤(1 2)␤(7 8)␤(2 3)␤(5 6)␤(8 9)␤(4 5)␤(9 Nil)␤»
08:16 AlexDaniel jeek: ↑
08:16 jeek ?
08:17 jeek Ah, scoping issue?
08:18 cxreg it's (9 Nil) because the loop goes up to [10] but ^10 is 0..9
08:18 cxreg btw
08:18 nine AlexDaniel: .WHAT does return a type object. Stringifying that will give you the "uninitialized" warning while calling .gist (as say does to its arguments) will not. In any case $n.^name is really what you want.
08:18 nine cxreg: ^^^
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08:18 cxreg .gist?  hm.  thanks
08:20 cxreg AlexDaniel: back to the original example.  the first loop localizes $i to the loop block, correcT?
08:20 cxreg hm.  maybe it doesn't.
08:20 AlexDaniel cxreg: nope, because you don't have 「my」 in the second one
08:20 DrForr Wow, more #perl denizens coming in... Rock.
08:20 yoleaux 30 Dec 2015 11:51Z <_nadim> DrForr: Readline broken with the latest Rakudo
08:20 yoleaux 2 Jan 2016 08:04Z <azawawi> DrForr: Any update on the OpenCV bindings for Perl 6? Can you please share your WIP github repo?
08:20 nine cxreg: I was saying that if there for example is no "symbol" thingy in Perl 6, I'd write a class that mimicks its behavior and can be mapped back to Ruby symbols without ambiguity.
08:21 nine .tell AlexDaniel I was saying that if there for example is no "symbol" thingy in Perl 6, I'd write a class that mimicks its behavior and can be mapped back to Ruby symbols without ambiguity.
08:21 yoleaux nine: I'll pass your message to AlexDaniel.
08:21 AlexDaniel I'm here :)
08:21 yoleaux 08:21Z <nine> AlexDaniel: I was saying that if there for example is no "symbol" thingy in Perl 6, I'd write a class that mimicks its behavior and can be mapped back to Ruby symbols without ambiguity.
08:21 nine .tell awwaiid I was saying that if there for example is no "symbol" thingy in Perl 6, I'd write a class that mimicks its behavior and can be mapped back to Ruby symbols without ambiguity.
08:21 yoleaux nine: I'll pass your message to awwaiid.
08:21 nine That's what I meant :)
08:21 cxreg is there an echo in here :o
08:22 cxreg nine++
08:22 masak cxreg: agree with "ship a must-have application"
08:23 masak cxreg: I think the unbiased way to say what I want to say is that I see this as the biggest uncertainty for Perl 6 going forward, whether an actual business case and a killer app will materialize
08:23 cxreg m: loop (my $i = 0; $i < 3; $i++) { $i.say }; say "\$i is now $i"
08:23 camelia rakudo-moar de40f3: OUTPUT«0␤1␤2␤$i is now 3␤»
08:23 nige1 joined #perl6
08:24 cxreg AlexDaniel: it's not... ? i thought it was for sure.  but it seems to be outer scoped.
08:25 Juerd masak: Well, that requires that at least some people will pick Perl 6 for new projects. The chance of anyone doing that would increase with great performance, so I think we shouldn't count on such a thing happening just yet.
08:25 masak cxreg: the rule is, is it outside of the block braces? then it's outer scoped.
08:25 AlexDaniel m: loop (my $i = 0; $i < 10; $i++) { }; loop (my $i = 0; $i < 10; $i++) { };
08:25 camelia rakudo-moar de40f3: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤    Redeclaration of symbol $i␤    at /tmp/5hvMrH4HaY:1␤    ------> 3 $i = 0; $i < 10; $i++) { }; loop (my $i7⏏5 = 0; $i < 10; $i++) { };␤»
08:25 masak Juerd: agreed -- it's partly a matter of "things need to happen in the right order"
08:25 Juerd masak: Except for arguments: -> $foo { ... }
08:25 cxreg masak: what about pointy block args?
08:26 cxreg yeah that
08:26 AlexDaniel cxreg: honestly, I was surprised by that. I haven't ever used 「loop」 actually
08:26 nine masak: I think, Perl 6 will see a long and slow but steady growth. At least if we continue to focus on high quality libraries and a performant core. I think that's much better for the long term perspective than having hundreds of thousands of libraries that no one will ever find.
08:26 masak cxreg: oh, they're an exception. as are routine parameters.
08:26 AlexDaniel cxreg: usually there are better alternatives in Perl 6
08:26 masak Juerd: also, robustness, both in the sense of "doesn't crash" and in the sense of "behaves predictably"
08:26 cxreg well.  yeah.  but details like this matter, a lot
08:27 jeek I just started in perl 6 a couple of hours ago. I'm working on projecteuler example solutions. I'm guessing my solutions will evolve as I learn more about the language.
08:27 AlexDaniel m: my $x = 5 if True; say $x;
08:27 camelia rakudo-moar de40f3: OUTPUT«5␤»
08:27 AlexDaniel m: my $x = 5 if False; say $x;
08:27 camelia rakudo-moar de40f3: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
08:27 masak nine: though I agree, that sounds a bit like "grr, those Node people!" sour grapes ;)
08:27 nine jeek: welcome!
08:27 pdcawley joined #perl6
08:27 masak jeek: pro tip: use camelia (either here on channel or in privmsg)
08:27 masak m: say "hi, jeek!"
08:27 camelia rakudo-moar de40f3: OUTPUT«hi, jeek!␤»
08:27 jeek Is that the new purl? :)
08:28 * masak shudders
08:28 AlexDaniel and for bigger snippets use gists, bitbucket snippets or gitlab snippets, hehe
08:28 masak jeek: it's a great way to communicate code with other people here, and so a great way to get help :>
08:28 moritz jeek: we try to keep camelia much less annoying than purl :-)
08:29 jeek I liked purl. :(
08:29 Juerd Mind blown:
08:29 Juerd m: my @foo[10]; my @bar[10]; my @baz := |@foo, |@bar; @baz = ^20; say @foo; say @bar
08:29 camelia rakudo-moar de40f3: OUTPUT«[0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9]␤[10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19]␤»
08:30 Juerd That's really nice.
08:30 nine masak: that's just because I've read the comments just now ;) But the point still stands: Perl 6's raison d'être is to get rid of the mistakes of the past. In my eyes that should really include a huge ecosystem of ill fitting libs written by beginners. Instead I would like us to strife for shared maintenance and an eye for compatibility. More Mojo instead of CPAN.
08:30 masak nine++ # putting the 'ê' in "être"
08:31 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
08:31 masak oh, that reminds me: http://perl.com/pub/2000/07/perl6.html (via someone on Twitter)
08:31 octoploid joined #perl6
08:31 masak an interesting read 15 years down the line :)
08:33 nine "One perennial problem has been that installing a new version of Perl has frequently broken binary compatibility with older versions and required that all of Perl's unbundled extension modules be recompiled; this may be fixed in Perl 6."
08:33 nine I'm....glad I could play a part in solving that :)
08:33 AlexDaniel Juerd: have you tried recursive lists yet?
08:33 Juerd AlexDaniel: Not in this context.
08:33 masak nine: that one stood out to me as well ;)
08:34 AlexDaniel Juerd: not that it is a real feature, but it was another way to blow my mind :)
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08:37 nine Bonus points for anyone who can say why Juerd's mind blowing actually works that way :)
08:37 moritz nine: is "magic" a good enough explanation? :-)
08:44 El_Che masak: I dislike panda's UI when it prints exceptions instead of a concise error, e.g. when not finding a module. Very pythonesque. Are PRs welcome related to this, or you like that design?
08:46 masak El_Che: dunno; ask tadzik :)
08:47 masak El_Che: (I personally find stack traces boring, yes. they help the developer, but not the user.)
08:50 _nadim good morning
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08:57 richi235 masak: well, if the user is a programmer they are quite helpfull
08:59 cxreg masak: the odds of a great killer app in a language seem to be some Drake equation involving the learning curve of the language, the size of the community, the phase of the moon, etc
08:59 richi235 ah sorry, didn't read full backlog, it's about panda ignore my message
08:59 cxreg masak: i think the odds are pretty good honestly.  once the dust settles a bit.
09:00 cxreg there's still a lot of grumbling about "ya shouldn't have called it perl"
09:00 cxreg either because it upsets people's delicate psyche WRT thier preconceived notions about back compat, or because of poisoned mindshare
09:01 justine_o joined #perl6
09:01 cxreg whatever.  cool apps win. QED.
09:02 cxreg once i'm beyond Noob Mountain, I'll do my part to see what can be forged
09:05 cxreg cherry picking from that 2000 post
09:05 cxreg m: system()
09:05 camelia rakudo-moar de40f3: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/74xTM0GlwM␤Undeclared routine:␤    system used at line 1␤␤»
09:05 cxreg m: localtime()
09:05 camelia rakudo-moar de40f3: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/gWwsXyu9NV␤Undeclared routine:␤    localtime used at line 1␤␤»
09:05 cxreg *cough* :)
09:06 cxreg kind of adorable that those were specific concerns in the announcement.  what a long road.
09:07 cxreg TimToady is "not big on specs" :) :) :)
09:11 Ulti cxreg: system is 'shell' and localtime is 'DateTime.now()' ?
09:12 cxreg yeah.  this is from the july 2000 perl 6 commencement ;)
09:12 Ulti ahh
09:13 * Ulti didn't even begin to learn Perl until 2004 despite the constant chatter about the death of Perl starting in 2000
09:13 nige1 joined #perl6
09:14 AlexDaniel Ulti: what? system is ‘shell’?
09:14 Ulti and that was after I already knew PHP, Java, C and JavaScript quite well... all those "modern" languages people are flocking to "nowadays"
09:14 Ulti AlexDaniel *shrug* think so
09:14 AlexDaniel if you call it with one long stringy arg then yeah
09:14 AlexDaniel but otherwise not really
09:15 AlexDaniel the thing is, system() is kinda supposed to run a program and pass some args to it, all that without using a shell
09:15 AlexDaniel now, for whatever reason somebody made system() “smart” so that if you put everything into one long string (not multiple args) then it will do that through shell
09:15 Ulti system prefixes 'sh' ?
09:16 AlexDaniel so, perl5 「system」 is more like 「run」 when you call it with multiple args
09:16 Ulti or at least used to before all the bash uproar a year and a bit ago, right?
09:17 AlexDaniel prefixes 'sh'? What does that mean?
09:18 Ulti as in runs via the shell
09:18 Ulti sh -c or whatever it is
09:19 AlexDaniel well it doesn't prefix it, it perhaps runs 'sh' and passes your string as an argument after '-c', yeah
09:19 AlexDaniel but ‘prefixing’ is only possible in shell, which 「run」 and 「system」 typically don't do at all
09:20 * AlexDaniel wonders how long will it take to consider himself a troll after all those shell discussions
09:22 masak cxreg: thank you for the wonderful Drake equation analogy. I really like that.
09:22 masak cxreg: but you're not allowed to put "phase of the moon" as a factor -- I think that's against the implicit rules ;)
09:23 masak cxreg: re "ya shouldn't have called it perl" -- to me the KO rebuttal to that is "oh hey, here's TimToady, he *made* Perl. he can call Perl 6 whatever he wants". nothing past that is very interesting to me.
09:24 sno joined #perl6
09:24 masak (probably phrased a little more delicately when stated outside of #perl6, though)
09:24 Ulti >___>
09:25 Ulti but "they" are watching us
09:26 masak Ulti: are we still talking about the Drake equation? :P
09:26 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
09:26 cxreg masak: while true, it's the thousands of developers that will make it a success, not Larry standing alone and being a BDFL
09:26 cxreg so their concerns matter, even if they're wrong
09:27 wamba joined #perl6
09:27 masak cxreg: you have a point. since many years back, I've refused to hang my personal happiness on the thousands, for reasons of continued sanity. I'm a Perl 6 user. others can be too if they want.
09:27 cxreg anyway, i've been preaching it, and some percentage of that does sink in.  time will tell.
09:27 dakkar joined #perl6
09:29 cxreg can i ask an honest question?  why does reini keep releasing new versions of parrot?
09:30 masak that question is perhaps better asked on #parrot
09:30 cxreg i idled in there until i realized that only the bot ever said anything for months at a time :/
09:31 Ulti surely if someone is there to release it that's reason enough?
09:31 cxreg maybe one day someone will uh, fix the parrot backend?  hm.  just wondering is all.  i guess the tree really does fall in the woods.
09:32 cxreg 100% of the people i knew involved in that project rage quit several years ago
09:34 * moritz didn't rage quit, but rather quietly left for greener pastures
09:34 moritz not that I was ever much of a parrot developer, but I did have a commit bit
09:34 cxreg it would be nice to see it brought at least back to relative functionality with the last year of development
09:35 masak well volunteered!
09:35 masak I had no idea someone would step up like that!
09:35 cxreg my tuits are not that round, sadly
09:35 gregf_ joined #perl6
09:35 masak oh, you meant it would be nice if *other people*, not you... got it... :)
09:36 moritz cxreg: we could ship you some round tuits if that's all that's blocking you :-)
09:37 masak frankly I suspect that the "opportunity cost" arguments that were once raised against focusing on MoarVM could now equally well be raised against Parrot
09:37 cxreg i guess we don't talk about that uncle in here.  point taken.
09:37 masak though don't let my pessimism stop anyone who wants to try
09:37 arnsholt Opportunity cost is a good argument
09:37 arnsholt And from my experiences working with Parrot vs. JVM/Moar, it's not gonna be easy to find someone who actually *wants* to do it
09:37 masak arnsholt: though the MoarVM case shows that sometimes it's a bet that pays off.
09:38 arnsholt Yeah, opportunity cost is definitely a hard argument
09:38 cxreg well, plus the never-aligned goals was a mood killer
09:38 arnsholt Very hard to predict the future dividends from two different options
09:38 cxreg but it was hard to align goals when perl 6 kept moving the goalposts?
09:39 cxreg could very well be that it's an easier discussion with p6.c
09:39 El_Che masak: ah. I took you for the panda author. Sowry :)
09:39 moritz cxreg: well, parrots goal were "support all dynamic languages, somehow" for a long time
09:40 cxreg that's what i meant by alignment.  it was a "well, we should at least have one working language" vs "let's not specialize"
09:40 moritz cxreg: so even if Perl 6 hadn't been a moving target, there wasn't much room for goal alignment
09:40 cxreg maybe the question is, is that still a worthy goal
09:41 cxreg possibly no since "all the dynamic languages" aren't the hotness they were 10 years ago
09:41 moritz also "all the dynamic languages" didn't give a good guide for what to do
09:42 cxreg allison is quite sure it directly influenced microsoft
09:42 cxreg donno if she's right or not
09:43 cxreg maybe Sun/Oracle too?
09:44 masak ISTR an article Allison wrote about "we succeeded, because we influenced other players"
09:44 cxreg yeah, and i talked to her irl about it too
09:44 masak I definitely don't want to rob her (or the Parrot people) of that definition of success
09:44 masak ...so I'll say no more about it.
09:45 cxreg that's all that smalltalk people can claim (oh snap)
09:45 cxreg and boy howdy do they claim all of it
09:45 masak I can see it with Smalltalk
09:46 masak Eclipse is a whole largely came out of Smalltalk people building stuff for Java
09:46 rindolf joined #perl6
09:46 masak as a whole*
09:47 arnsholt Also, Objective C
09:47 cxreg lots and lots of things did
09:48 cxreg ruby owes a lot there too
09:49 cxreg anyway, there are still people that maintain spin-offs of BeOS and AmigaOS
09:49 cxreg and i know a guy who, i think, still ports perl 5 releases to legacy macos
09:51 masak oh, and also Smalltalk -> Strongtalk -> v8/JavaScript
09:52 moritz is anybody working on a Star release for 2015.12?
09:52 moritz or has an idea what's required to do it, at least?
09:52 pmurias joined #perl6
09:53 cxreg do you think it would make sense to have a trait that you have to declare, lest the compiler give you grief if you share a variable across multiple threads?
09:53 pmurias graal/truffle on the jvm seems to be the current iteration of the "support all dynamic languages" goal
09:53 cxreg or something like that anyway?
09:54 cxreg (going back to the start-related bug from earlier)
09:54 FROGGS moritz: I am
09:55 moritz FROGGS: do you have an ETA? (asking for a friend, no pressure :-)
09:56 FROGGS moritz: I wanna work on it this evening, but I bet one evening is not enough
09:57 moritz FROGGS: what approach are you planning to do? bootstrap panda?
09:57 FROGGS moritz: yes
09:57 FROGGS started doing that weeks already
09:58 moritz FROGGS: do you have a branch for that that you can share?
09:59 FROGGS moritz: I can surely create one
09:59 timotimo cxreg: we have a "cross thread write" logging thingie in moarvm that loudly complains if you write something to a variable or object from another thread than the one that owns it
09:59 yoleaux 07:55Z <nine> timotimo: camelia runs in a VM with 4 CPUs on a server with 8 cores
09:59 moritz FROGGS: would be nice; maybe I can also pour some tuits in
09:59 FROGGS cool
10:00 cxreg timotimo: this was a "used an outer lexical in multiple start calls" with much surprise
10:00 cxreg read-only, but they had unexpected values because of scheduling
10:00 pmurias joined #perl6
10:00 timotimo yeah, it's probably a bit surprising that it closed over the value without explicit curlies involved
10:01 timotimo but if there were no implicit curlies there, your code wouldn't have multi-threaded period
10:01 cxreg loop { start function($outer-lexical) } # like that
10:02 cxreg except more complex
10:02 cxreg do you think there's room for a warning there?
10:03 timotimo oof
10:03 timotimo sometimes you do want to share that, for example if you have an object there
10:03 _mg_ Hello all. Will there be a rakudo-star release for 2015.12?
10:03 cxreg well, in this case it was a loop variable
10:03 timotimo _mg_: we've got a developer working on it
10:04 cxreg maybe that could be noticed
10:04 _mg_ timotimo: ok thanks
10:04 timotimo cxreg: loop doesn't necessarily mean you've got an int or something simple like that
10:04 timotimo but still ... yeah
10:04 timotimo in this case i'm really not sure
10:05 cxreg my $outer-whatever is intended-to-be-shared; # :)
10:05 cxreg but i guess you don't always know what you'll do
10:06 timotimo that's right
10:06 cxreg sure would be nice to have a noob mode that puts more guard rails on than an advanced user would want
10:06 timotimo "no noob" would be the new "use stict", eh?
10:06 cxreg heh.
10:07 cxreg could even be opt-in.  is there a pluggable warnings / strictures system at all?
10:07 timotimo i was wondering why your code was starting at $i = 2, btw
10:07 timotimo was there a reason to be skipping the first Channel?
10:07 nine FROGGS: what rakudo version will star use?
10:07 FROGGS nine: 2015.12
10:07 cxreg it was not my code, it was jeek's.  not exactly sure.
10:07 FROGGS nine: or was there a point release?
10:08 timotimo probably an accident? expecting lua-style array indices?
10:08 timotimo FROGGS: i don't think there was one yet. but there really should be, IMO
10:08 timotimo we have reasons to have one, at least
10:08 nine FROGGS: I really think we should do a point release first to include it in star. 2015.12 was...not that usable :/
10:08 FROGGS nine: sounds good to me
10:09 timotimo moarvm doesn't have commits critical to users, IMO
10:10 timotimo so we can at least skip that part of the release process without upsetting things too much
10:10 timotimo all nqp got was using \0 in char classes
10:10 timotimo and of course pmurias' tests and js implementations of ops
10:12 moritz so, start a release branch that sets NQP_REVISION back to 2015.12?
10:13 cxreg nine: did you ever see IPFS?
10:13 cxreg it occurs to me that you might find it interesting / relevant
10:14 timotimo the bump was only for the character class, it seems
10:16 cxreg nine: conceptually anyway, maybe not literally :-)  but i was looking at your CURI file-id stuff just now.
10:17 * masak .oO( NO NOOB; NO PROJECT EULER )
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10:19 arnsholt I'm getting an error when building Rakudo HEAD: "An exception occurred while evaluating a constant"
10:20 arnsholt When doing install-core-dist.p6. Anyone know what's going on?
10:22 glucosade joined #perl6
10:29 FROGGS arnsholt: maybe you need to wipe your install/share/perl6/site and the ~/.perl6?
10:29 snarkyboojum joined #perl6
10:31 arnsholt I can definitely try that
10:32 arnsholt I thought to git clean my Rakudo dir, but that won't clear the install dir
10:32 nine cxreg: no?
10:33 nine cxreg: jnthn++'s inspiration for the CURI architecture was git
10:33 nine cxreg: so it has the same ancestor as IPFS
10:34 masak the idea behind Git is definitely a powerful one. content addressing rocks.
10:34 cxreg nine: cool i'll look deeper at how curi works
10:34 masak doesn't Docker use something like that, too?
10:35 cxreg the general concept is "merkle trees"
10:35 cxreg the idea of using it as a global content distribution mechanism is nifty, the guy gave a good talk that i saw.
10:35 cxreg well, "global".  lol.  he imagines using it across light-hours.
10:35 timotimo the one at the congress?
10:36 timotimo hm, actually, i think that was just the lightning talk introducing it
10:36 nine The advantage of all those hashes compared to previous suggestions is that the repository's state is solely represented by the presense of files, not their contents. This means that a distribution package can just copy files and those file names should never conflict.
10:36 arnsholt FROGGS: Had to blow away the whole install/ dir, but that did the trick. Cheers!
10:36 JimmyZ It woulde be nice to have jnthn++'s curli gist in rakudo repo
10:37 masak JimmyZ: +1
10:37 JimmyZ I wanted to say it longlong ago
10:37 pmurias joined #perl6
10:37 timotimo nine: we don't have a plan for what happens when sha1 is finally deprecated enough, eh?
10:38 JimmyZ s/curli/CURI/
10:38 AlexDaniel timotimo: I think that the typical response was that sha1 is just fine for that purpose
10:38 cxreg timotimo: mass cache invalidation? :)
10:39 cxreg it's a simpler answer for cache than it is for things like git that consider history to be permanent
10:39 timotimo true
10:39 dalek rakudo/nom: f0a524a | (Stefan Seifert)++ | docs/module_management.md:
10:39 dalek rakudo/nom: Add jnthn++'s module management proposal to docs
10:39 dalek rakudo/nom:
10:39 dalek rakudo/nom: It has been implemented mostly as proposed, so this document is still
10:39 dalek rakudo/nom: very valid and helps understanding the implementation.
10:39 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f0a524a536
10:40 nine Now I can finally stop being nervous about clearing my browser's history...
10:40 JimmyZ nine++
10:40 nine timotimo: sha1 is good enough for git, it's good enough for us
10:41 cxreg pre-image attacks are for academics and the NSA :)
10:41 AlexDaniel there are some doubts about it being good enough for git though
10:41 masak I think as a rule, we should err on the side of adding gists to the docs/ folder ;)
10:41 nine masak: +1
10:41 masak at least until someone goes "arrgh, what's this annoying informative thing doing here!" :P
10:42 masak more realistically, and less strawman-y, the real risk is probably information overload or bad culling or something
10:43 araujo joined #perl6
10:43 araujo joined #perl6
10:43 nine masak: I'm a fan of dealing with such problems when we really have them
10:45 masak YAGNI, agreed
10:45 timotimo fair enough
10:45 timotimo we don't have anything for keccak in our module ecosystem yet, do we?
10:46 AlexDaniel so in the end we have doc.perl6.org, synopsis, some kind of docs in rakudo repository, there are also apocalypse and exegesis thingies… did I miss anything? These have different purposes, I know, but…
10:47 RabidGravy joined #perl6
10:48 masak AlexDaniel: in particular, docs/ in the Rakudo repository and doc.perl6.org have very different audiences
10:48 masak you don't have to be a Rakudo developer to be a Perl 6 user
10:48 AlexDaniel .oO( you don't have to be a Perl 6 user to be a rakudo developer )
10:49 AlexDaniel I was happy to see lizmat++ moving S99 to user docs
10:49 lizmat good *, #perl6!
10:49 AlexDaniel perhaps the same thing could be done with the rest of it
10:50 lizmat am about to start on a second batch
10:50 lizmat can only do this for ~ 2 hours before my mind starts to draw a blank
10:50 masak I agree that S99 is more user-doc-like than synopsis-like
10:50 timotimo a second batch of what now?
10:51 masak lizmat: what in the world is it you're doing that blanks out your mind after 2 hours? :)
10:51 lizmat second batch of moving stuff from S99 to doc/glossary
10:51 timotimo oh, OK :)
10:51 masak it's not eminently automatable?
10:51 lizmat trying to read newbieish documentation
10:51 lizmat ah, no, I want to do an editorial review on the S99 entries before entering them into the doc/glossary
10:52 AlexDaniel masak: there's a bunch of cruft there
10:52 lizmat too many inside info/jokes on S99
10:52 lizmat it's the editorial review that makes it hard
10:52 timotimo fair enough
10:52 lizmat sometimes, (like IRC abbreviations), it's easy, yeas
10:52 nine In our team meeting, an hour ago we moved from "will we use Perl 6 any time soon" to "how can we start to use Perl6" quickly
10:52 timotimo oh, neat
10:52 lizmat cool!
10:52 arnsholt Very neat indeed. Where do you work?
10:52 espadrine joined #perl6
10:53 masak nine: wow, nice!
10:53 lizmat are we the only people who cannot reach doc.perl6.org ??
10:53 nine arnsholt: http://www.atikon.com you probably couldn't tell that it's such a cool place :)
10:53 lizmat or perl6.org for that matter ?
10:54 cxreg lizmat: same here
10:54 llfourn down for me
10:54 lizmat invoking moritz to check out what's going in
10:54 lizmat *on
10:54 nine http://www.isitdownrightnow.com/doc.perl6.org.html
10:54 masak lizmat: "It's not just you! http://perl6.org looks down from here."
10:54 cxreg masak: "lmdfeojmfy" :-)
10:55 masak aye
10:55 cxreg i think that's the anglicized form of the 2015.12 release name
10:56 * masak .oO( invoking the moritz. please step back to a safe distance to enable vine-swining from roof. )
10:56 * masak .oO( *REGEX* )
10:57 lizmat perhaps moritz is already aware of it, because it may be part of bigger problem at his $work ?
10:57 masak possibly. if he's back to $work already.
11:00 lizmat anyways, it seems that not having a Perl 6.0 out there, is *mighty* confusing to a *lot* of people
11:00 lizmat so I was thinking: why not name the next Rakudo * 6.0
11:00 timotimo it seems we now have a little bug fixed in nqp::join with regards to GC, so we may want to actually release a 2015.12.1 of moarvm
11:01 nine lizmat: which would be technically highly incorrect but could actually be helpful :)
11:01 lizmat it's all about marketing in this respect
11:01 lizmat and Rakudo * is really a bit like a Debian on top of the Linux Kernel
11:02 lizmat so it may well have it's own version numbering
11:02 lizmat and since we recommend Rakudo * to beginners anyway
11:02 lizmat it only seems *very* appropriate to name it 6.0
11:02 cxreg node.js went from 0.12 to 4.0 in one go
11:02 lizmat because that is what many people want to see
11:03 lizmat and we want many people to see Perl 6  :-)
11:03 timotimo what do we name rakudo stars after 6.0?
11:04 lizmat well, 6.1 ?
11:04 * cxreg phones captain semver
11:04 timotimo that seems like a terrible idea
11:04 lizmat perhaps only switch major numbers on a language version bump
11:04 timotimo then we'll have 6.1, 6.2, 6.3, suddenly we have perl 6.d
11:05 timotimo so we'll have perl 7, perl 8, perl 9 for 6.d, 6.e and 6.f?
11:05 timotimo man is *that* going to make perl5 people mad
11:05 lizmat so this one would be 6.0.0, the next one 6.0.1
11:05 lizmat and when we get to 6.d, we go to 6.1
11:05 timotimo and we won't have 6.c.1?
11:05 masak timotimo: we should just release Perl 7, then Perl 8, then Perl 9. one each month. :P
11:05 AlexDaniel like a web browser! Great
11:06 lizmat well, you can take it into the absurd, but we *do* have a marketing problem
11:06 masak yes
11:06 lizmat to the point that one of the people doing marketing for Perl 6 is about to call it quits
11:06 lizmat because it cannot be explained to Joe Average
11:06 timotimo i must admit, i have no clue about marketing
11:07 cxreg how do things like pypy and the like version themselves?
11:07 nine Well by not daring to call the release 6.0.0, we've robbed ourselves from great markting potential. Because that's the exact version that people have expected to see. So much that they don't believe that Perl 6 final has really been released.
11:07 crux joined #perl6
11:08 cxreg "Python2.7 compatible release — PyPy 4.0.1"  "Python3.2.5 compatible release — PyPy3 2.4.0"  # o.O
11:08 dalek rakudo/nom: 511854a | LLFourn++ | src/Perl6/World.nqp:
11:08 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix RT #126566
11:08 dalek rakudo/nom:
11:08 dalek rakudo/nom: Exporting multiple custom declarators made them clobber their changes to
11:08 dalek rakudo/nom: $*ACTIONS. Now use %*LANG<MAIN-actions> to chain the changes.
11:08 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/511854ada2
11:08 dalek rakudo/nom: 0f26aef | lizmat++ | src/Perl6/World.nqp:
11:08 dalek rakudo/nom: Merge pull request #673 from LLFourn/multi-exporthow
11:08 dalek rakudo/nom:
11:08 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix RT #126566
11:08 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0f26aef534
11:09 masak nine: agreed.
11:09 masak nine: as far as I can tell, though, that was very deliberate.
11:10 masak nine: actually, to me it seems half of everone expected to see "Perl 6 1.0", which makes no sense to me
11:10 lizmat deliberate as in wanting to create a marketing disaster ?
11:10 masak lizmat: no, of course not :)
11:10 cxreg imo, we're too overly concerned with the short-term reaction
11:10 masak lizmat: deliberate as in "6.0.0 would send the wrong signals, let's use the 6.c naming scheme instead"
11:10 timotimo cxreg: if we don't have any short-term reaction, we can't hope for a long-term development, though
11:10 cxreg disgaree
11:10 masak I disagree too
11:11 cxreg there's been quite a lot of reaction, and much of it positive.  you can't placate everyone so don't try.
11:11 timotimo mayhaps
11:11 masak I don't care if thousands of developers don't show up at our doorstep today
11:11 * timotimo is AFK for a bit
11:11 timotimo i trust y'all much more than i trust myself to make decisions about this :)
11:12 lizmat masak: I think we need a bigger bus factor soon, because I detect signs of burnout
11:12 AlexDaniel actually, it would be nice to make the documentation less messy. e.g. if Sxx are not considered as a specification, then what are they and why do we keep touching them? So to me it makes sense to start moving stuff from synopsis into docs or into other places. For example, it can go like this: “is this part documented in user docs? Yes → delete it; no → move it into user docs. Are there any tests for it? No → wait, leave it here for
11:12 cxreg comes back to the killer app thing.  make a great thing people want and they'll come asking how they howya the whatsits
11:12 AlexDaniel now.”. This way we will get more (potentially useful) stuff in user docs, less cruft in synopsis, and less people will think about synopsis as the specs for perl 6. Also, synopsis will become kinda-specs for not-yet-implemented stuff. Sounds great.
11:12 masak lizmat: we always need more core developers.
11:13 poga joined #perl6
11:13 nine masak: not just core developers
11:13 masak lizmat: expecting 6.c to bring in new core developers is even more far-fetched than expecting it to bring in masses of users
11:13 nine masak: I can hug our whole marketing team at once
11:13 nine And am looking forward to do that in a couple of weeks :)
11:14 masak :)
11:14 cxreg maybe just a nice solid FAQ would help here?
11:14 masak nine: will you be at GPW?
11:14 nine yes
11:14 masak \o/
11:14 masak me too. haven't made travel arrangements yet, though
11:14 DrForr Reminds me, I need to check on FOSDEM arrangements.
11:14 cognominal joined #perl6
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11:16 lizmat cxreg: the solid FAQ is already in place, on doc.perl6.org which is still down :-(
11:16 AlexDaniel .u 💱
11:16 yoleaux U+1F4B1 CURRENCY EXCHANGE [So] (💱)
11:16 AlexDaniel SIGIL EXCHANGE
11:16 nine I wonder if I should even try do to something new for my 5th talk on Inline::Perl5 or if it's time to just recycle...
11:16 masak nine: something new! :D
11:16 RabidGravy something borrowed!
11:16 yoleaux 06:15Z <AlexDaniel> RabidGravy: i²c library? Great! I will probably need that in a week or two, good that it's not something I will have to do myself… ;)
11:17 cxreg lizmat: if the 1.0 question is covered, then the marketing people can use it, no?  is it a matter of having a short-answer to say out loud?
11:17 RabidGravy :)
11:18 AlexDaniel .u 💊💉
11:18 yoleaux U+1F489 SYRINGE [So] (💉)
11:18 yoleaux U+1F48A PILL [So] (💊)
11:18 lizmat cxreg: having that covered is *not* marketing
11:19 RabidGravy AlexDaniel, you can look now https://github.com/jonathanstowe/RPi-Device-SMBus - but it's completely untested right now (until I make the other thing I am making)
11:19 AlexDaniel RabidGravy: is it limited to RPi or is it more general?
11:19 au joined #perl6
11:19 brrt joined #perl6
11:22 RabidGravy well, In theory it should work on anything that has a /dev/i2c-1 and uses ioctls to send the commands
11:22 RabidGravy however it is unlikely to be tested by me on anything but a RPi
11:23 AlexDaniel RabidGravy: I can probably test that on A13-based board a bit later this month
11:24 AlexDaniel lizmat: “Ahem, that's not the bug. This is:”
11:25 AlexDaniel lizmat: https://rt.perl.org/Public/​Bug/Display.html?id=127144 here
11:25 AlexDaniel m: my uint8 $x = 255; print $x, " -> "; $x = $x + 1; say $x;
11:25 camelia rakudo-moar f0a524: OUTPUT«255 -> 0␤»
11:26 AlexDaniel hm
11:26 AlexDaniel m: y uint8 $x = 255; print $x, " -> "; $x++; say $x;
11:26 RabidGravy I do have a "PCDuino" and an "Intel Galileo" somewhere (both of which support i2c) but I'm skeptical that I have the patience to build Perl 6 on either of them
11:26 camelia rakudo-moar f0a524: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/XEqXpIePCr␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/XEqXpIePCr:1␤------> 3y uint87⏏5 $x = 255; print $x, " -> "; $x++; say $␤    expecting any of:␤        infix␤        infix stopper␤        postfix␤   …»
11:26 AlexDaniel m: my uint8 $x = 255; print $x, " -> "; $x++; say $x;
11:26 camelia rakudo-moar f0a524: OUTPUT«255 -> 256␤»
11:26 AlexDaniel rigth
11:26 AlexDaniel RabidGravy: hahaha
11:27 AlexDaniel m: my uint8 $x = 255; print $x, " -> "; $x++; say $x; say $x.WHAT
11:27 camelia rakudo-moar f0a524: OUTPUT«255 -> 256␤(Int)␤»
11:27 AlexDaniel m: my uint8 $x = 255; print $x, " -> "; say $x; say $x.WHAT
11:27 camelia rakudo-moar f0a524: OUTPUT«255 -> 255␤(Int)␤»
11:31 dalek roast: c824a98 | lizmat++ | S02-types/native.t:
11:31 dalek roast: Add tests for RT #127144, Juerd++
11:31 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/c824a98985
11:32 nine I just submitted 2 talk proposals for the GPW
11:32 arnsholt The unconditional warning in NativeCall when you don't pass a version number is pretty annoying
11:34 sergot http://isup.me/perl6.org :(
11:38 au lizmat: "Rakudo Star 2016.01 [Stable]" perhaps? later on "Rakudo Star 2017.01 [LTS]"
11:38 au [Stable] and [LTS] seems to carry more weight than .0.0 these days
11:38 lizmat sergot: yeah, a known issue...  we've tried invoking the moritz already
11:38 Skarsnik joined #perl6
11:39 lizmat au: "Rakudo Star 6.0 [Stable]" has an ever better ring to me  :-)
11:39 sergot lizmat: oki :)
11:39 moritz huh, seems the webserver hangs, or so
11:39 au lizmat: <small>201</small><big>6.0</big><small>1</small>
11:41 snarkyboojum joined #perl6
11:41 jast YYYY.MM suggests rolling releases, so in that case a stable/LTS tag is very informative. with something like semver, a tag is much less relevant IMO.
11:41 moritz perl6.org is back up again.
11:41 masak lizmat: I think there's a small confusion involved in the 6.c naming scheme, but I think it would be way *more* confusing to then go 6.0 for the Rakudo Star releases
11:42 masak moritz++ # I assume
11:42 moritz "Rakudo Star 2016.01 with support for Perl 6.c"
11:43 moritz fwiw I just force-rebooted www.p6c.org from the hypervisor; no idea what went wrong
11:44 moritz if anybody wants to try to dig up relevant information to track what went wrong, please let me know
11:44 nine How many people outside of #perl6 know that "Perl 6.c" has the meaning of "Perl 6 v1.0"?
11:44 au lizmat: or, in plaintext unicode: "Rakudo Star 2016.01 [Stable]"
11:44 moritz nine: I don't know, but I know quite certainly that we don't gain anything with inconsistent versioning
11:45 dalek roast: ceab66c | LLFourn++ | S12-meta/ (2 files):
11:45 dalek roast: multiple declarators inside DECLARE
11:45 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/ceab66c1ca
11:45 dalek roast: f297fbc | LLFourn++ | S12-meta/ (2 files):
11:45 dalek roast: Merge pull request #93 from LLFourn/multi-exporthow
11:45 dalek roast:
11:45 dalek roast: multiple declarators inside DECLARE
11:45 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/f297fbc9e5
11:45 lizmat moritz: some people might argue that exact point with the move to 6.c versioning
11:46 lizmat and I would like to invite anybody in favour of 6.c versioning to start explaining that to visitors of the Perl booths on events like FOSDEM
11:47 moritz lizmat: but isn't it a bit late to have that discussion now?
11:47 lizmat and ofher non-Perl events we intend to visit this year
11:47 lizmat moritz: my idea is about Rakudo Star
11:47 moritz lizmat: I mean, the exact same arguments existed in November too
11:47 lizmat the discussion about the compiler release is indeed water under the bridge
11:47 masak so far I like moritz's suggestion.
11:47 nine Well, about language release, because the compiler targeting 6.c is 2015.12
11:48 masak "Rakudo Star 2016.01 with support for Perl 6.c"
11:48 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
11:48 lizmat moritz: I'm not sure if you've seen the backlash about the lackluster release if Perl 6.c
11:48 nine masak: that doesn't convey anything about this being a stable release
11:48 cygx joined #perl6
11:48 cygx o/
11:48 lizmat http://blogs.perl.org/users/jt_smith/2​015/12/christmas-came-bah-humbug.html
11:48 cygx .oO( Rakudo Star 2016.01 [6.c-stable] )
11:48 nine masak: nothing to distinguish it from previous star releases
11:48 lizmat http://www.vromans.org/johan​/articles/Perl/20151229.html
11:49 moritz lizmat: that blog post has *nothing* to do with versioning
11:49 masak nine: maybe a footnote about what the "6.c" means (so that people who don't know can read more about it and understand what guarantees it gives)
11:49 lizmat moritz: ack, you're right
11:49 lizmat the second one is
11:49 moritz lizmat: it looks like a timing issue to me
11:49 lizmat and there's a lot of traffic on the Perl 6 FB group
11:49 moritz lizmat: though I can't be certain
11:50 lizmat about the versioning
11:50 moritz lizmat: the traffic I've seen on twitter was overwhelmingly positive
11:50 cxreg it seems more like a lack of actually having the * release at all, maybe more than its name
11:50 lizmat well, anyway, I've launched my idea about versioning
11:50 lizmat Rakudo Star
11:50 lizmat and now I'm going to leave it up to you people to convince our marketing people to continue marketing
11:51 cxreg what was that mst marketing effort that he launched for perl 5?  iron man?  we could attempt a similar thing.
11:52 abraxxa what's wrong with modules.perl6.org?
11:53 moritz abraxxa: it seems we don't have a service file that restarts the backend on reboot
11:53 masak "Service Unavailable"
11:53 abraxxa moritz: systemd?
11:53 moritz or rather, it didn't seem to work :(
11:53 lnrdo joined #perl6
11:55 moritz Zoffix: how do I debug modules.perl6.org "Service Unavailable"? Hypnotoad is running
11:56 nine it's up!
11:56 moritz yes, I just restarted apache, after manually starting hypnotoad
11:56 * moritz hates software
11:56 abraxxa I saw Perl 6 release articles on golem.de and phoronix.com
11:56 * moritz hates operations
11:56 nine moritz: a very healthy sentiment
11:57 abraxxa i need a monitoring sponsor ;)
11:57 moritz lizmat: do you treally think it's easier to explain three versioning schemes than two?
11:57 Zoffix moritz, it works fine
11:57 lizmat I';m not sure there will be 3
11:57 Zoffix moritz, did you have to start it manually after the reboot?
11:58 abraxxa moritz: works again, thanks!
11:58 moritz lizmat: if we do a different versioning scheme for star than for the compiler, there will be three
11:58 moritz Zoffix: yes
11:58 lizmat moritz: I mean, traditionally we've had fewer Rakudo Star releases than we had compiler releases
11:58 lizmat for a number of reasons
11:58 moritz Zoffix: and I had to restart apache2 afterwards
11:58 Zoffix :S
11:58 lizmat so, why not decouple Rakudo Star further?
11:58 moritz lizmat: sure; but still the version numbers corresponded
11:58 Zoffix I'll take a look tonight
11:58 lizmat moritz: but why?  other than for historical reasons ?
11:58 moritz Zoffix: could you please write a proper service file for the hypnotoad
11:58 Zoffix Yeah, I will
11:59 moritz lizmat: 1) so that we don't have to explain three versioning schemes 2) so that it's obvious on which compiler it's based
11:59 Zoffix "Service Unavailable" stuff is cached so it takes a few score seconds before it starts showing things even after you start hypnotoad
11:59 lizmat I mean, if we have a bad compiler release for some reason, we might still want to do a Rakudo Star release because of updates in the modules
11:59 lnrdo joined #perl6
11:59 masak I'd still much perfer Star to be clearly tied to compiler, version-wise
11:59 moritz lizmat: 3) people already recommend "rakudobrew build moar $compiler-version" and then panda install Task::Star; that won't work with separate star versniong
12:00 cxreg you could do a point release of the prior compiler's version?  wait for the compiler to be fixed?
12:00 lizmat moritz: now *that* is a valid point  :-)
12:00 DrForr Out of all the questions we'll get at FOSDEM, I don't think that versioning will be the first one on their minds :)
12:00 moritz cxreg: typically we either did a point release of the current compiler version, or skip the star release altogether
12:00 cygx moritz: does it work anyway without versioned Task::Star
12:00 DrForr I rather suspect "Why?" will be :(
12:01 moritz cygx: the closer it is to a release, the better it works :-)
12:01 cxreg moritz: yeah.  just thinking it out.
12:01 cygx moritz: so the compiler versions  one may provide are just tribal knowledge of what versions work wit task::star
12:01 cxreg you should call it Rakudo Star 15 and make jokes about the 15 years.  own it so they can't mock it.  :-)
12:02 cxreg lol
12:05 cxreg how about a twitter blitz of useful one-liners that you can write in 140 characters or less
12:05 masak go for it
12:06 cxreg i need to work on my golf before i'm up to it, but it sounds fun
12:06 masak need to temper that golf with clarity if you want the one-liners to be useful... :)
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12:09 dalek doc: e89affa | lizmat++ | doc/Language/glossary.pod:
12:09 dalek doc: Fix the L<> mess I made last night
12:09 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/e89affa95e
12:10 cygx if you really wanr to mislead people, the next Rakudo Star version should be called 6.0 ;)
12:10 cygx *want
12:10 user74747 joined #perl6
12:10 * cxreg steps back slowly
12:10 llfourn and call it Rakudo Star Wars
12:10 cxreg llfourn++
12:11 llfourn try to ride the hype!
12:11 cxreg That's no moon, that's a WhateverStar!
12:12 nine Feels a little like we have allowed ourselves to get dragged into a versioning discussion to avoid the more important marketing team bus factor discussion.
12:12 Skarsnik Hello
12:13 lizmat nine: agree...
12:13 * lizmat withdraws idea and will no longer discuss it
12:13 masak nine: what do you want to discuss about the marketing team bus factor?
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12:15 nine When lizmat++ talks about burn out, I take it seriously. Mostly because it doesn't surprise me. Fact is: we have no infrastructure that I'm aware of for collaboration on marketing.
12:15 panos hello everyone.
12:16 nine Hello Guest8050
12:16 Guest8050 I am trying to compile rakudo on my windows machine and it is complaining about unknown OS....
12:16 Guest8050 Anyone has any idea about it ?
12:16 llfourn Guest8050: with rakudobrew?
12:17 Guest8050 No, no....the manual installation.....
12:17 Guest8050 Clone the git repo and then try with make
12:17 masak nine: I'm not aware of any such infrastructure either.
12:17 Guest8050 I have installed already mingw-w64 at my pc
12:17 Guest8050 What do you mean masak ?
12:17 llfourn Guest8050: hopefully you ran perl Configure.pl --gen-moar --gen-nqp
12:18 lizmat Guest8050: is it a spectest test that complains about unknown OS ?
12:18 Guest8050 Correct !!! This is what i am doing !!! :)
12:18 FROGGS Guest7256: dunno if it works with mingw... the easiest thing might be to install strawberryperl that ships a gcc
12:18 Guest8050 Oh !!!!!!
12:19 cygx Guest8050: are you using an msys shell?
12:19 Guest8050 This....i didn't knew !!!
12:19 Guest8050 I am using ActiveState perl (which is the one we usually use at the office)....
12:20 Actualeyes joined #perl6
12:20 FROGGS I usually either use strawberry *or* activeperl with MSVC
12:20 cygx I think jnthn uses ActiveState and MSVC
12:20 Guest8050 Hi, cygx...i am using the mingw-w64
12:21 loren joined #perl6
12:21 cygx Guest8050: you might try --moar-option="--os mingw32"
12:21 loren Hi, #Perl 6
12:21 FROGGS hi loren
12:21 loren Can i test MAIN feature use evalbot ?
12:22 Zoffix don't think so
12:22 loren Em, oh..
12:22 FROGGS m: sub MAIN(Str $foo) { }
12:22 camelia rakudo-moar 0f26ae: OUTPUT«Usage:␤  /tmp/V0cGYqXky_ <foo> ␤»
12:22 FROGGS loren: like this?
12:23 Zoffix :o
12:23 loren like perl6 -e 'sub MAIN(Str $x) { }' ""
12:24 FROGGS loren: do you want to see the usage message for wrong args or do you want to call it successfully?
12:24 loren call it
12:24 loren i have a problem about it
12:25 FROGGS loren: just call it, it is a subroutine nevertheless...
12:25 FROGGS m: sub MAIN(Str $foo) { }; MAIN(<42>)
12:25 camelia rakudo-moar 0f26ae: OUTPUT«Usage:␤  /tmp/4yhpj25ZMg <foo> ␤»
12:25 loren When a pass a empty string to it, perl6 will report error
12:25 FROGGS m: say <42>
12:25 camelia rakudo-moar 0f26ae: OUTPUT«42␤»
12:26 FROGGS m: sub MAIN(Str $foo) { }; MAIN("")
12:26 camelia rakudo-moar 0f26ae: OUTPUT«Usage:␤  /tmp/zqz6zx1jUJ <foo> ␤»
12:26 FROGGS why do I get a usage message here?
12:26 FROGGS loren: what error message do you get?
12:26 loren I wonder too..
12:27 loren Cannot invoke this object ..
12:27 FROGGS hmmm
12:27 loren just this message
12:27 loren Cannot invoke this object \n  in block <unit> at -e line 1
12:27 FROGGS $ perl6 -e 'sub MAIN(Str $x) { }' ""
12:27 FROGGS Cannot invoke this object
12:27 FROGGS confirmed
12:28 FROGGS m: val("")
12:28 camelia rakudo-moar 0f26ae: OUTPUT«Cannot invoke this object␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/i8Jbk4RMoA line 1␤␤»
12:28 FROGGS golfed
12:28 kaare_ joined #perl6
12:28 loren em ??
12:29 * lizmat looks at it
12:29 cxreg m: val(Mu)
12:30 camelia rakudo-moar 0f26ae: OUTPUT«Memory allocation failed; could not allocate 2411960 bytes␤»
12:30 nzkindest joined #perl6
12:30 cygx oO
12:30 AlexDaniel what is val?
12:30 Guest8050 Thank you so much, i will try with strawberry perl...
12:30 pjscott joined #perl6
12:31 loren $ perl6 -e 'say "I can use evalbot like this, get it!"'
12:31 loren What happen ..
12:32 DrForr loren: You can paste that into your own terminal :)
12:32 cxreg m: val(Str)
12:32 camelia rakudo-moar 0f26ae: OUTPUT«Cannot unbox a type object␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/ntwjZMf2RL line 1␤␤»
12:32 RabidGravy I keep meaning to write a vim macro such that I can select a bit of code and run it, putting the output in a new buffer
12:32 cxreg i'm mildly concerned at the Mu one that OOMs
12:33 loren Em, DrForr I know, i just try whether it work or not..
12:34 loren m: say &val;
12:34 camelia rakudo-moar 0f26ae: OUTPUT«sub val (;; Mu | is raw) { #`(Sub|63430800) ... }␤»
12:35 nige1 joined #perl6
12:37 lizmat FROGGS: so what do you think val("") should return ?
12:37 lizmat and should it warn ?
12:39 FROGGS dunno, really
12:40 lizmat Nil perhaps ?
12:40 arnsholt m: is-approx -1.4210854715202e-14, 0, "?"
12:40 camelia rakudo-moar 0f26ae: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/szLW16hg4O␤Undeclared routine:␤    is-approx used at line 1␤␤»
12:40 arnsholt m: use Test; is-approx -1.4210854715202e-14, 0, "?"
12:40 lizmat or "" with a warning ?
12:40 camelia rakudo-moar 0f26ae: OUTPUT«not ok 1 - ?␤␤# Failed test '?'␤# at /tmp/PjPwCQy8Ff line 1␤# expected: 0␤# got:      -1.4210854715202e-14␤»
12:40 lizmat m: val(Int)   # something like this ?
12:40 camelia rakudo-moar 0f26ae: OUTPUT«Value of type Int uselessly passed to val()  in block <unit> at /tmp/mxPbTV6ThN line 1␤»
12:44 FROGGS val should return a hybrid type/value for a string that looks like another type, no?
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12:44 Skarsnik oh a variable named like a named arg does not work?
12:44 FROGGS so "" should return "" without a warning IMO
12:44 FROGGS Skarsnik: context?
12:45 lizmat FROGGS: indeed...
12:45 Skarsnik m: sub foo($a, :$x) {say "foo"}; my $x = 1; foo(1, $x);
12:45 camelia rakudo-moar 0f26ae: OUTPUT«Too many positionals passed; expected 1 argument but got 2␤  in sub foo at /tmp/d3oKWSKDR8 line 1␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/d3oKWSKDR8 line 1␤␤»
12:46 Skarsnik Oh I need a put : in front of it
12:47 Skarsnik m: sub foo($a, :$x) {say "foo"}; my $x = 1; foo(1, :$x);
12:47 camelia rakudo-moar 0f26ae: OUTPUT«foo␤»
12:47 FROGGS Skarsnik: yes, that
12:47 FROGGS m: my %h; say (:%h<foo>)
12:47 camelia rakudo-moar 0f26ae: OUTPUT«(Mu)␤»
12:47 abraxxa Skarsnik: I'll test gptrixie against the OCI header files as soon as I find time
12:47 FROGGS m: my %h = foo => 42; say (:%h<foo>)
12:47 camelia rakudo-moar 0f26ae: OUTPUT«(Mu)␤»
12:47 FROGGS :/
12:48 FROGGS m: say (:$<foo>)
12:48 camelia rakudo-moar 0f26ae: OUTPUT«foo => Nil␤»
12:48 FROGGS I was hoping :%h<foo> would DTRT
12:48 Skarsnik abraxxa, remind me I need to add array output x)
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12:53 daxim U+1F98B BUTTERFLY   # we did it, reddit
12:53 lnrdo_ joined #perl6
12:53 panos_GR joined #perl6
12:53 panos_GR Hello to everyone.
12:54 panos_GR You were correct ! By using Strawberry perl everything worked fine !!!
12:54 llfourn panos_GR: !! awesome :D !!
12:54 panos_GR But in perl6 there is no executable...right ?
12:54 panos_GR I mean.....i just see a perl6.bat
12:54 panos_GR This is the equivalent of the perl.exe ?
12:54 FROGGS panos_GR: yes, that's correct
12:55 panos_GR Because it is running on MoarVM ?
12:55 panos_GR Right ?
12:55 FROGGS perl6.bat will invoke the vm (MoarVM) plus some options
12:55 FROGGS just run than
12:55 panos_GR Oh !!!!
12:55 FROGGS perl6 -e "say 'hello!'"
12:55 panos_GR Wow !!! You guys made my day today !!!!! :D
12:55 FROGGS \o/
12:55 panos_GR Yes it worked !!! [perl6 -e "say 'hello!'"]
12:55 dalek rakudo/nom: cd7cd0e | lizmat++ | src/core/allomorphs.pm:
12:55 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix various val() related issues
12:55 dalek rakudo/nom:
12:55 dalek rakudo/nom: As golfed by FROGGS++ at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/p​erl6/2016-01-04#i_11826565
12:55 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/cd7cd0ef70
12:56 panos_GR It's alive !!!!! :D
12:56 FROGGS *g*
12:57 panos_GR But what i cannot understand is why with my previous configuration it didn't worked !
12:57 panos_GR Strawberry perl + MinGW-W64
12:57 panos_GR Sorry...i mean ActiveState Perl + MinGW-W64
13:04 FROGGS panos_GR: the --moar-option shown earlier in irc might have helped too
13:04 FROGGS panos_GR: seems our operating system guessing could be improved with that constellation
13:04 panos_GR I have tried but couldn't work.
13:04 panos_GR I got the same issue.....
13:04 FROGGS aha
13:05 FROGGS well, we'll fix that too at some point
13:05 panos_GR It's all right. No worries...since i managed (with your help) to make it work....i am quite happy !
13:05 panos_GR Actually i am using perl 5 for many years....but i am completelly new in perl6 !
13:05 dalek nqp: b295edd | (Pawel Murias)++ | tools/build/MOAR_REVISION:
13:05 dalek nqp: Bump MOAR_REVISION to hopefully fix a bug randomly screwing up code generation on the js backend.
13:05 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/b295edd3d1
13:05 FROGGS panos_GR: then have fun learning something new :o)
13:06 panos_GR Of course at home i didn't had ANY problem at all with my linux box...at the office i am stuck with windows.....
13:06 panos_GR Thank you so much !
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13:11 nine Cool! It just took me ~ 90 minutes to create updated openSUSE packages for MoarVM 2015.12, nqp 2015.12 and rakudo 2015.12.1 including finding out where to actually download the tarballs from :)
13:13 _nadim Gone are the days when people liked to install from source ... says an ex Gentoo user.
13:13 lucasb joined #perl6
13:13 nine I rebuild rakudo from source multiple times a day, but if we are to use it on our servers, there'd better be packages for it.
13:14 _nadim nine++
13:14 loren i prefer use source build it
13:14 lucasb you said... rakudo 2015.12.1 ?
13:15 nine Something close to it, actually. The package is called 2015.12.1 and contains current nom
13:15 loren fedora packages version are still 2015.11
13:16 lucasb ah, ok. it's not a git tag for 2015.12.1
13:16 arnsholt I think all our is-approx tests break when the expected value is 0...
13:16 arnsholt Which is kind of annoying
13:16 arnsholt (And they're not the same is-approx as is specified in S24, but that's fixable)
13:18 lucasb now that nqp got a moar bump, can rakudo be bumped as well? so I can build a new one with the libuv updated :)
13:18 moritz m: use Test; plan 1; say is-approx 1e-12, 0, 'foo';
13:18 camelia rakudo-moar cd7cd0: OUTPUT«1..1␤not ok 1 - foo␤␤# Failed test 'foo'␤# at /tmp/TRRNcYQ9vg line 1␤# expected: 0␤# got:      1e-12␤False␤# Looks like you failed 1 test of 1␤»
13:19 arnsholt moritz: The default one compares |got - expected|/max(|got|, |expected|) to the tolerance value (by default 1e-6)
13:20 RabidGravy loren, fedora tracks rakudo star I think
13:20 arnsholt Of course, that ratio's gonna be 1 for all inputs
13:20 arnsholt There's a more advanced version, but I think that breaks similarly at 0
13:20 brrt panos_GR: with Strawberry Perl (x64), MoarVM *should* justwork
13:21 brrt i dunno about mingw64
13:22 dalek rakudo/nom: 812a48b | lizmat++ | src/core/allomorphs.pm:
13:22 dalek rakudo/nom: Streamline allomorphs a bit
13:22 dalek rakudo/nom:
13:22 dalek rakudo/nom: - reduce number of scope by using ternaries/postfix given
13:22 dalek rakudo/nom: - don't use return if it is already last value of a sub
13:22 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/812a48b0b7
13:22 loren I often update my fedora
13:22 administ1ator joined #perl6
13:24 arnsholt Ah, nm. The more elaborate version works
13:25 loren rakudo on windows version are still 2015.09..
13:25 domidumont joined #perl6
13:25 arnsholt Knuth suggests a different method of comparing floats though
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13:32 lizmat hmmm... so how do I declare an internal link in the doc/glossary ?
13:33 lizmat L<foo> seems to refer to /type/foo
13:33 dalek rakudo-star-daily: cc115b5 | coke++ | log/ (7 files):
13:33 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
13:33 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/cc115b50b0
13:33 dalek perl6-roast-data: 5058335 | coke++ | / (7 files):
13:33 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
13:33 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/50583355e8
13:33 nzkindest joined #perl6
13:35 dalek doc: 8c4bd04 | lizmat++ | doc/Language/glossary.pod:
13:35 dalek doc: Actions(stub)/Adverbial Pair/Argument/Parameter
13:35 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/8c4bd0447b
13:35 domidumont joined #perl6
13:35 arnsholt lizmat: L<#Foo> or something along those lines, if memory serves
13:36 lizmat arnsholt++
13:41 Skarsnik why this is full of fail? https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily​/blob/master/log/MoarVM-test-modules.log
13:44 dalek doc: 87ae1b7 | lizmat++ | doc/Language/glossary.pod:
13:44 dalek doc: Another round of link fixes
13:44 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/87ae1b7fbd
13:44 RabidGravy lizmat++
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13:59 * RabidGravy locates the PiGlow and cracks on with making a thing
13:59 dalek nqp: 4345f11 | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
13:59 dalek nqp: [js] Remove useless code.
13:59 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/4345f11b5d
13:59 dalek nqp: 87092ac | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/ (2 files):
13:59 dalek nqp: [js] Implement nqp::objectid.
13:59 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/87092ac798
13:59 dalek nqp: e997347 | (Pawel Murias)++ | t/nqp/92-where.t:
13:59 dalek nqp: Test nqp::objectid.
13:59 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/e9973477a1
13:59 dalek nqp: e4b80e9 | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
13:59 dalek nqp: [js] Add a bunch of C_TYPE_* constants.
13:59 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/e4b80e9454
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14:08 Skarsnik it could be cool if the 'Use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context' names the variable x)
14:09 [Coke] (point release of 2015.12) this is tricky and needs review. If someone is thinking of this to help with the star release, you can't use nom at this point.
14:10 [Coke] (need a new branch off christmas with whatever has to be cherry picked)
14:11 lizmat [Coke]: I only think the GC fix in MoarVM might warrant a point update
14:12 lizmat so maybe it could be as simple as an NQP version bump
14:13 [Coke] (stable release) we had an argument about that pre-xmas as well, and jnthn made a convincing point that we don't really want stable vs. dev releases, at least short term.
14:15 lucasb I fear that backward compatibility will kill all the fun
14:15 [Coke] lizmat: then we have to review nqp commits & moarvm commits also.
14:16 lizmat hmmm....  yeah  :-(
14:16 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
14:16 lizmat hmmm... there are some CURI fixes...
14:16 [Coke] but I know flussence, e.g. has some strong ideas for things that need to be in a point release. (and I think those were related to precomp or installation)
14:16 lizmat OTOH, we're only two weeks off from 2016.01, right ?
14:17 moritz but if that also supports perl 6.c, it can't break much backwards compatibility either, can it?
14:18 nine Yeah, maybe we should just release an early 2016.01?
14:18 lizmat well, the release date is set on 16 ?
14:18 lizmat seems like 21 would be more historically correct, [Coke] ??
14:19 Skarsnik why not delay star for 2016.01?
14:19 zakharyas joined #perl6
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14:21 pmurias do we have to review and cherry pick all the MoarVM/nqp commmits, isn't just passing the 6.c test suit enough?
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14:29 lucasb idk if it makes sense what I will say, but shouldn't 2016.01 monthly releases be targeting the upcoming 6.d version? moar, nqp and rakudo should all branch from xmas release to keep a 6.c compatibility branch. Only a few fix commits would have to be cherry picked, right? I think this is the only way possible for the language to continue evolve.
14:29 ZoffixW joined #perl6
14:29 Woodi hallo #perl6 :)
14:30 Woodi lucasb: IMO 6.c for next 2 years...
14:30 Woodi lucasb: and new features going to experimental ?
14:32 * ZoffixW reads backlog
14:32 ZoffixW m: my @foo[10]; my @bar[10]; my @baz := |@foo, |@bar; @baz = ^20; say @foo; say @bar
14:32 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«[0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9]␤[10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19]␤»
14:32 ZoffixW I'm here to score nine's extra points :) This works because it's the containers inside the arrays that get bound which is why assigning to @baz works.
14:32 ZoffixW Also +1 (no, +2) on using the [Stable] tags on releases. +1 on using [LTS] too, but maybe only in a year, when the dust settles a bit and things become more stable to support an LTS. I've actually not seen any confusion over actual versions and more about there being a version of the language + a version of a compiler + lack of a R* release you could just point people at. I think something tagged with '[Stable]' gives people a clear indicator of what
14:32 ZoffixW to download among the many options.
14:33 nine ZoffixW: right! :)
14:33 ZoffixW \o/
14:33 lucasb well, idk nothing really. I think there is this balance between language evolution and backward compatibility, and they contrast with each other. The last months of 2014 saw the most disruptive changes and I think it's silly to think that now everything is stable and frozen.
14:34 brrt that's kind of what was promised, though
14:34 nine lucasb: have you read this? https://gist.github.com/jnthn/f3a691016c20f0cc4cfa
14:34 Woodi maybe our marketing departmen could start to push C11/C++11/6.c propaganda ? :)
14:35 ZoffixW lucasb, fwiw the last few months of 2015, I rage quitted programming in p6 several times because every thing I touch was crumbling due to rapid changes. It's especially true with the stuff in the ecosystem where authors don't always have the time to fix their stuff or to merge PRs.
14:35 lucasb nine: I haven't read in its entirety, but I'll do so. sorry if I said something nonsense :)
14:35 CoconutCrab left #perl6
14:36 lucasb ah, I mistake the year, it's 2015, not 2014 :D
14:37 FROGGS ZoffixW: sadly, we had to do that (were "we" does not include me sadly, had hoped to be able to spend more time on perl6)
14:37 ZoffixW FROGGS, sure, that's perfectly understandable.
14:39 Woodi also: last years was like this: March -> new feature or speed++; May -> same or similiar; October new feature or speed++ again; December something++ again. I hope that 2016 will be similiar: few seriously good "events" especially in in speedup or bug removing. so by 2017 we could have something STABLE/LTS like au++ proposed
14:39 brrt damn that is a sensible proposal for the 6.c
14:42 Woodi ZoffixW: rage stopping programming in Perl6 is common thing last years :) becouse of bugs and language changes. now for 2016 we have bugs alone ;)
14:43 ZoffixW Woodi, I'd put lack of libraries in there too :)
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14:44 ZoffixW I've tried DBIish last night and—and this is not to belittle anyone's effort in making it—but using it, compared to say Perl 5's DBIx::Class is lightyears away. Even Mojo::SQLite is way more usable than DBIish SQLite backend
14:44 * ZoffixW is currently contemplating releasing DB::SQLite BTW
14:45 lnrdo joined #perl6
14:45 abraxxa ZoffixW: PLEASE document your experience in e.g. github issue(s)!
14:45 ZoffixW abraxxa, the DBIish experience?
14:45 abraxxa yes
14:45 Woodi ZoffixW: and there no many finished modules becouse every time you start something you hit bug</maybe history>...
14:45 ZoffixW abraxxa, I fear to sound too negative.
14:46 molaf joined #perl6
14:46 ZoffixW I think the brute-force approach of porting something from P5 to P6 will never produce good results.
14:46 dalek doc: 2819f25 | lizmat++ | doc/Language/glossary.pod:
14:46 dalek doc: Add stubs for stuff inside the glossary already
14:46 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/2819f25081
14:47 ZoffixW Unless it's something trivial, like Lingua::Conjunction and Number::Denominal (P5) / Number::Denominate (P6) that I ported.
14:47 Woodi ZoffixW: I very miss bruteforce C API in Perl6 :) then things could be builded on top of this
14:47 ZoffixW But even then, I changed the interfaces because P6 has Types and stuff
14:47 ZoffixW Anyway. My 2 cents :)
14:47 pmurias_ nick pmurias
14:47 * ZoffixW goes back to $doing-things
14:48 nine Building packages with the Open Build Service really is a joy!
14:49 abraxxa as soon as DBDish::Oracle gets working on moarvm again I want to work on its API
14:49 abraxxa Zoffix: we already started in making it more Perl6-ish by using - instead of - in the method names and returning typed values
14:50 abraxxa I plan on refactoring the test suite into a (standalone) module (Test::DBDish?) to make running the same base tests against multiple DBD's easy
14:51 abraxxa nine: is that a Suse thing?
14:51 gtodd joined #perl6
14:51 gtodd is there a way on perl6's rt to list all bugs posted by a particular user?
14:52 * Woodi was realy shocked when saw that NCurses.pm6 looks complete :)  krunen++
14:53 El_Che stupid error I keep shooting myself in the foot. Have a attr $.name and a method name
14:53 RabidGravy and works and everything
14:54 nine abraxxa: yes, though it can create packages for openSUSE, SLES, Arch, Debian, Fedora, ScientificLinux, RedHat, CentOS, Ubuntu and Univention
14:54 RabidGravy I'm struggling with "handles" today
14:55 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
14:57 * lizmat adds a lemma stub for "handles" in the glossary
14:58 RabidGravy edit, I'm struggling with shell quoting today ;-)
14:58 RabidGravy m: class F { has @.bb handles ( "get-bb" => "AT-POS" ) = <a b c d>; };  say F.new.get-bb(1)
14:58 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«b␤»
14:58 timotimo yeah, shell quoting is the worst
14:58 timotimo i recommend an editor shortcut that evaluates the file for you :P
15:01 [Coke] lizmat: yes; we have to answer all these questions for 2016.01
15:01 [Coke] lizmat: we changed the release cycle last year after discussion.
15:01 [Coke] lizmat: (the actual monthly date changed)
15:01 lizmat ok
15:02 [Coke] mainly because mid-week for a release makes it really hard for someone with a standard $DAYJOB to do the release.
15:03 lizmat okidoki, yeah, that makes sens
15:03 lizmat e
15:03 * [Coke] is at $dayjob right now, so responses to convos may take an hour. :)
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15:11 * gtodd answers self:  there is and I figured it out and e.g. Zefram's bugs are interesting :) ...
15:13 wamba joined #perl6
15:13 nine t/04-nativecall/15-rw-args.t ... Failed 16/22 subtests on openSUSE Factory i586: https://build.opensuse.org/package/live_b​uild_log/home:niner9:branches:devel:langu​ages:parrot/rakudo/openSUSE_Factory/i586
15:13 muraiki joined #perl6
15:14 muraiki this is belated, but congrats to all on the Christmas release and thank you all for your hard work :)
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15:18 arnsholt nine: At a guess, 32bit vs. 64bit issue, since you're on a 32bit platform
15:19 FROGGS hmmm, I should try that on my 32bit ubuntu vm...
15:20 RabidGravy I found my PCDuino, when I have a couple of days to spare I may try building rakudo on it
15:21 Woodi days ? it takes so much time ? :)
15:21 arnsholt BTW, is "sub foo is native('foo')" intended to be deprecated?
15:21 konobi you could always try building rakudo for the kobo
15:22 RabidGravy it's like a 100Mhz single core ARM6
15:22 |Tux| m: say [+] (3..9).map(* **3)
15:22 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«2016␤»
15:22 |Tux| m: say [+] (3..9).map(***3)
15:22 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«7␤»
15:22 konobi (kobo aura is 1GHz, 256Mb armv7l)
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15:24 loren Night, everyone ..
15:25 timotimo night loren
15:25 loren ^_^, o//
15:25 RabidGravy arnsholt, not that I know of
15:26 lizmat m: say [+] (3..9).map: *³   # alas  :-(
15:26 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«Cannot call Numeric(Whatever: ); none of these signatures match:␤    (Mu:U \v: *%_)␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/XDO3XXbpQP line 1␤␤»
15:28 nine FROGGS: you here?
15:28 lizmat m: say "Hello world"
15:28 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«Hello world␤»
15:28 FROGGS nine: I am
15:28 nine FROGGS: looks like precompiled files contain the path of their source files. Does moar actually do anything with this?
15:29 FROGGS nine: perhaps for error reporting?
15:30 FROGGS nine: I guess these strings are in the string heap... these are at least used for $?FILE
15:30 dalek nqp: 23b4314 | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
15:30 dalek nqp: [js] Stub nqp::settypefinalize.
15:30 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/23b431447f
15:30 dalek nqp: 1c3a513 | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/ (3 files):
15:30 dalek nqp: [js] Basic nqp::getlexrel working only on nqp::curlexpad().
15:30 dalek nqp:
15:30 dalek nqp: Might need to make it work for outer variables, etc. latter on.
15:30 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/1c3a513eaa
15:30 dalek nqp: 652b299 | (Pawel Murias)++ | t/nqp/77-curlexpad.t:
15:30 dalek nqp: Basic tests for nqp::getlexrel, and nqp::existkeys with a outer variable
15:30 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/652b2996c8
15:31 nine FROGGS: oh, I just noticed that even the .deps files contain the paths containting the BUILDROOT. Guess I'll have to check with flussence++ on how to avoid that.
15:32 arnsholt FROGGS: Is the intention to deprecate "is native('foo')"? If not, the warning really shouldn't be there
15:33 Ulti ooo p6doc has got all fancy
15:33 nine arnsholt: I'm actually wondering if it's too late to change the is native(('foo', v1)) to use some named argument for the version
15:33 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
15:35 arnsholt At a guess, probably not
15:36 arnsholt But probably not, given how traits work
15:36 arnsholt A separate version trait might be cleaner
15:37 FROGGS arnsholt: I dunno
15:37 llfourn this exists now in case anyone didn't see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG_t23B8hDI #lizmat++ p6 talk
15:37 arnsholt TBH, I've been wanting to do some larger-scale cleaning in NativeCall for a while. Just no time ATM
15:38 Juerd lizmat: Thanks for adding the tests :)
15:38 lizmat Juerd: thanks for writing them!  :-)
15:38 skids Really the "is native" version needs  to allow specifying a bunch of ranges so authors can blacklist buggy releases of the target lib.
15:39 lizmat llfourn: it's just the quality of the video  :-(
15:39 sammers joined #perl6
15:39 Juerd lizmat: Note that I screwed up the first post and the actual bug is in a reply. You're right that the thing that I initially posted does exactly the right thing. I copy/pasted the wrong lines.
15:40 skids (Though, going by the lib version these days when fixes are backported tends to be a mess anyway)
15:40 lizmat Juerd: yeah, figure that out later  :-)
15:40 RabidGravy right I've type something like "has @.foo handles ('get-foo' => 'AT-POS');" more than three times now, time for a trait I think ;-)
15:40 llfourn lizmat: yes I am just discovering this. It seems you're face will be forever shrouded in darkness.
15:40 nige1 joined #perl6
15:41 lizmat llfourn; not sure that's a bad thing :-)
15:42 arnsholt FROGGS: Well, there's an unavoidable warning if you don't do it, which is kinda annoying =)
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15:45 dalek doc: cf8a75e | lizmat++ | doc/Language/glossary.pod:
15:45 dalek doc: Another bunch of lemmas and stubs
15:45 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/cf8a75e9b0
15:47 pdcawley Is there a way of persuading the repl to accept/detect multi line statements?
15:48 llfourn pdcawley: I don't think so.
15:48 llfourn (of course in the future this will be desireable)
15:48 * pdcawley grins, "Patches welcome?"
15:49 [Coke] it's hard, or we'd have done it already.
15:49 mspo make ;'s mandatory with an option ;)
15:49 llfourn mmm it wouldn't be so bad if we could use Perl6::Grammar easily but right now you can't
15:50 [Coke] m: sub a ($a;$b) { say "a" }
15:50 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: ( no output )
15:50 llfourn what does ; do in a sig?
15:50 FROGGS pdcawley: the parser is designed to know where a safe point of statement parsing is... though, one would need to port that from STD to rakudo
15:50 [Coke] pdcawley: https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=112634
15:50 pdcawley [Coke]: Really? Stash the code in a buffer, attempt to execute it, if the error implies an EOF before the end of a parse, carry the buffer over to the next line.
15:50 llfourn i know what ;; does
15:50 FROGGS pdcawley: timotimo and me already tried without much success
15:51 FROGGS pdcawley: IIRC it was about a magic "moreinput" token
15:51 timotimo nothing i try successes :)
15:51 FROGGS *g*
15:51 moritz pdcawley: it's not that easy; the regex engine uses length of the input string all over the place to check if stuff can match or not
15:51 pdcawley run the equivalent of perl -c on the buffer, only actually execute the buffer if the -c passes.
15:51 [Coke] pdcawley: please give it a shot.
15:51 moritz pdcawley: so there's no clear "have we reached EOF?"
15:52 mspo blank line?
15:52 pdcawley moritz: So... perl -c could continue failing forever, if you fucked up the statement?
15:53 [Coke] pdcawley: right. you need help from the parser to make this work, or how do you tell between "bad" and "not done"
15:53 pdcawley [Coke]: Hackish approach: User input a blank line, she must be done, just execute the buffer and let the chips fall where they may.
15:54 pdcawley [Coke]: clearly not the Right Thing long term, but implementable now.
15:54 pdcawley (I hope!)
15:54 pdcawley Where's the REPL to be found in the source.
15:54 mspo pdcawley: hacks that work work best
15:55 pdcawley mspo: Cheat all you want, but don't get caught :)
15:55 mspo now if you could up-arrow your previous multi-line statement, bump into vi mode to move around, and then :w prog.pl6 after it works
15:55 nine Oh my....both my GPW talk submissions have been accepted
15:55 cxreg [Coke]: bad and not-done are the same thing until instructed otherwise by the typist?
15:55 awwaiid nine: come to dcbpw
15:55 yoleaux 08:03Z <nine> awwaiid: Congrats on your progress on Inline::Ruby! Piece of advice: don't map language constructs in one language to constructs in the other language unless they really match semantically. Because one day someone will use code that looks very closely and discovers you cheating.
15:55 yoleaux 08:21Z <nine> awwaiid: I was saying that if there for example is no "symbol" thingy in Perl 6, I'd write a class that mimicks its behavior and can be mapped back to Ruby symbols without ambiguity.
15:56 mspo or can vim just be the repl somehow?
15:57 stmuk_ :!perl6 %
15:57 nine awwaiid: I've never been to the US, and I'm not particularily attracted to crossing that border...
15:57 awwaiid yoleaux: good point -- what I've done in other cases is to make a separate "sugar" lib, and anyone who uses it is then opting-in to weirdness.
15:57 cxreg [Coke]: it's how node's repl works, you just get "... " forever.  once you expect that the statement is done, if you still have "... " you can ^C to interrupt the broken input
15:57 mspo kind of like erlang and emacs
15:57 awwaiid nine: ah, that's too bad. I guess I'll have to come over there sometime instead
15:58 gabiruh joined #perl6
15:58 mspo although as a non-emacs using the connection was off-putting
15:58 mspo also the erlang repl/interactive env has weird limitations
15:59 cxreg [Coke]: https://gist.github.com/cxreg/e1a88edcb70e734baece
15:59 cxreg pdcawley: you also
16:00 pdcawley cxreg: you've implemented it?
16:00 cxreg no, this is what node.js does
16:00 moritz awwaiid: a good opportunity would be the German Perl Workshop in March :-)
16:00 cxreg it's quite elegant
16:00 [Coke] cxreg: not perfect, but seems better than the current situation. I think part of the issue is that we were going for ideal, and since -that- is hard...
16:00 moritz awwaiid: nine++ is coming and giving two talks on Perl 6, in fact :-)
16:00 moritz awwaiid: http://act.yapc.eu/gpw2016/
16:00 cxreg [Coke]: yeah it is.
16:01 [Coke] there are a HUGE number of nativecall warnings running against 6.c
16:01 cxreg i have minor quibbles with that repl, in that it doesn't distinguish between various errors and often leaves you with "..." when it knows better.  but we could do better.
16:02 lizmat cycling&
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16:06 RabidGravy boom boom boom boom
16:06 RabidGravy dark
16:08 awwaiid moritz: I need to work some place that considers conferences with "perl" in the name as reimbursable :( . But I'll look into it
16:09 cxreg awwaiid: tell them it's RakudoCon
16:09 cxreg :)
16:09 llfourn awwaiid: just tell them YAPC stands for something else
16:09 cxreg Yet Another Profit Center
16:09 llfourn lol
16:10 [Coke] I started keep a list of things I know we need to address before 2016.01 - https://gist.github.com/coke/2d5f2c63eda7cc890eda
16:10 mspo Yearly Annual Prostate Check
16:10 mspo then submit it to your insurance
16:10 llfourn The A should stand for Agile and C - cloud
16:10 mspo ugh, missed a joke on the 'A'
16:10 [Coke] the conference is cheap enough, it's the travel that gets me. :|
16:11 [Coke] Yahoo Agile Pascal Cloud
16:11 llfourn [Coke]++ except for Pascal lol
16:11 mspo maybe a perl6 program could generate these
16:11 AlexDaniel m: my @a = ^10; say(|@a);
16:11 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«0123456789␤»
16:12 pdcawley So... where in the source does one find the repl?
16:12 Woodi awwaiid: simplest way to get to conference is if your company sponsor it :)
16:12 AlexDaniel m: my @a = ^10; say join(|@a);
16:12 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«10203040506070809␤»
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16:12 llfourn Yougsters Agilely Programming the Cloud
16:13 lucs m: sub foo (%h?) { say join(" - ", %h.defined) }; foo(); foo({}); # How to distinguish between the two cases?
16:13 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«True␤True␤»
16:13 [Coke] pdcawley: I would start with src/Perl6/Compiler.nqp // interactive
16:13 [Coke] that points at HLL::Compiler's interactive
16:14 lucs m: sub foo (%h?) { say %h.defined }; foo(); foo({}); # (Simpler, eh)
16:14 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«True␤True␤»
16:14 [Coke] and I think that is at nqp/src/HLL/Compiler.nqp
16:16 pdcawley [Coke]: Cool. Perl6::Compiler is a bit high level then?
16:18 pdcawley [Coke]: Hmm... seems so...
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16:22 dalek doc: 627b289 | (Jake Russo)++ | bin/p6doc:
16:22 dalek doc: Refactor show-docs & change no-pager to a no-op
16:22 dalek doc:
16:22 dalek doc: Update Windows support in show-docs sub
16:22 dalek doc: Made original ternary more idiomatic as per @jnthn's comment in
16:22 dalek doc: PR #311.  Added another ternary to support no-pager mode in Windows.
16:22 dalek doc:
16:22 dalek doc: Refactor show-docs & turn no-pager into no-op
16:22 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/627b289a6f
16:22 dalek doc: ca3ea2b | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | bin/p6doc:
16:22 dalek doc: Merge pull request #312 from MadcapJake/master
16:22 dalek doc:
16:22 dalek doc: Refactor show-docs & change no-pager handling
16:22 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/ca3ea2b612
16:24 hoelzro pdcawley: what kind of stuff do you want to do with the REPL?
16:25 pdcawley hoelzro: initially just allow some kind of multiline input a la things like the node repl.
16:25 * RabidGravy concludes that "lazy built attribute with a delegate" is better handled by handles on a method
16:25 hoelzro ah ha
16:26 hoelzro I think BEGIN blocks and other compile-time behaviors may make that interesting, but it would probably be an improvement over what we have atm
16:26 hoelzro pdcawley: the code you want to look at is almost definitely in HLL::Compiler
16:26 pdcawley hoelzro: Cool.
16:27 lucs m: sub foo (%h?) { say %h.defined }; foo(); foo({}); # So, how to distinguish between no %h argument passed vs an empty one? (I mistakenly thought .defined would work)
16:27 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«True␤True␤»
16:27 Skarsnik nine, you probably could have a named parameter aside the list parameter for version on NC, not sure how that work in a trait thou
16:27 mspo this? https://github.com/perl6/nqp/bl​ob/master/src/HLL/Compiler.nqp
16:27 hoelzro as [Coke] pointed out, the interactive method
16:27 hoelzro mspo: that's the one
16:28 mspo hoelzro: it's difficult to reason about where the source for things will live :)
16:28 pdcawley hoelzro: cool. Are there docs anywhere on how the source is laied out?
16:28 RabidGravy Skarsnik, named parameters in traits work fine
16:28 hoelzro mspo, pdcawley: I happen to have given a talk on that very thing =)
16:28 hoelzro https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1JVJfNlCQL​7crJytbKsdlf7Jw4c4dMScjogHLkZuOwcs/edit#slide=id.p
16:29 pdcawley If i grab rakudo and do perl ./Configure.pl --gen-nqp, will I have a sane checkout?
16:29 hoelzro you should, yes
16:29 cygx joined #perl6
16:29 cygx m: sub foo (Associative $h?) { say $h.defined }; foo(); foo({})
16:29 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«False␤True␤»
16:29 hoelzro let me know if there's anything unclear in those slides; I tried to annotate them as best I could
16:29 [Coke] pdcawley: it won't be on master, necessarily.
16:29 lucs cygx: Oho. Thanks.
16:29 [Coke] --gen-nqp=master should get you the latest and greatest.
16:30 hoelzro hmm, unfortunately, I don't cover Perl6::Compiler in that talk =/
16:30 pdcawley [Coke]: but rakudo/nqp will be a git repo?
16:30 mspo $code := $code ~ "\n"; ;; change that to \n\n ?
16:31 cygx lucs: not sure if it should work with the % sigil
16:31 cygx I'd probably vore for yes
16:31 boegel joined #perl6
16:31 cygx % variable are containerish, but parameters are bound, not assigned
16:31 cygx *vote
16:31 siriu5b joined #perl6
16:34 [Coke] pdcawley: yes.
16:34 * pdcawley is confused. AFAICT, the master implementation of interactive does have logic for getting multiple lines....
16:34 Skarsnik [Coke], for me a major issue for the next rakudo release is being easily 'packagable'
16:34 timotimo pdcawley: i think that's for when you end your line in a backslash
16:34 [Coke] Skarsnik: how is the compiler not?
16:35 [Coke] Or are you saying you want a Rakudo * ?
16:35 pdcawley timotimo: I thought I tried that...
16:35 cygx on the other hand, you'd then have to write something like sub foo(%opt = {}) {...} to get current %opt? semantics
16:36 Skarsnik there was some issue/bug with like bootstrap.pl or panda, that make the whole thing hard to package
16:36 pmurias joined #perl6
16:36 pdcawley timotimo: Yup... the version that gets installed by rakudobrew build moar treats a \ terminator as an error.
16:36 Skarsnik bug in precomp and such (maybe they get fixed, I am blaming noone)
16:36 [Coke] Ok. I need RTs or PRs or commit ids if you have 'em.
16:37 geck left #perl6
16:37 [Coke] then I have something actionable I can check a box on when cutting a release.
16:37 mspo can you just replace share/nqp/lib/Perl6/Compiler.moarvm?
16:37 cygx m: sub foo (%h = Hash) { say $h.defined }; foo(); foo({})
16:37 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/zUiq1j134G␤Variable '$h' is not declared. Did you mean '%h'?␤at /tmp/zUiq1j134G:1␤------> 3sub foo (%h = Hash) { say 7⏏5$h.defined }; foo(); foo({})␤»
16:37 cygx m: sub foo (%h = Hash) { say %h.defined }; foo(); foo({})
16:37 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«False␤True␤»
16:37 skids [Coke] I've seen a lot of people fighting with getting a centrally installed rakudo to play nice with user local directories for precomps and other such issues.
16:37 cygx lucs: ^^^ if you prefer the %-sigil
16:38 hoelzro mspo: just replace? what are you trying to do?
16:38 mspo hoelzro: screw around with the repl?
16:38 lucs cygx++ Nice, thanks again.
16:38 timotimo pdcawley: hm, maybe it comes with Linenoise or Readline for some reason?
16:39 pdcawley Hmm... and a quick look at that source says that rakudobrew install moar is using \\ detection.
16:39 [Coke] timotimo: verified, ending with a \ works with linenoise.
16:39 hoelzro mspo: if you want to edit the REPL, you should probably edit src/Perl6/Compiler.nqp and do a make install
16:39 [Coke] (and without, does not)
16:39 raoulvdberge joined #perl6
16:39 skids .oO(Maybe someone who has been trying to package could summarize the IRC logs on the matter.)
16:40 pdcawley so... panda install Linenoise should do the trick?
16:40 pdcawley bingo!
16:40 mspo hoelzro: not HLL/Compiler.nqp?
16:40 hoelzro mspo: that too, depending on what you need to do
16:41 mspo find ./ -name "Compiler.nqp"|wc -l -> 8
16:41 pdcawley It'd still be nice to be able to copy/paste a chunk of code into the repl without having to fix it up first, but that's splendid.
16:42 hoelzro we could change the REPL so that if a chunk doesn't compile with an EOF encountered error, it automatically appends the backslash
16:43 mspo linenoise is referenced a lot in the code
16:43 mspo why isn't it just installed by default?
16:43 hoelzro but that could cause problems with BEGIN
16:43 hoelzro mspo: we don't bundle a lot of modules with Rakudo itself
16:43 hoelzro just Pod::*, Test, and NativeCall, IIRC
16:44 hoelzro Pod::* and Test for bootstrapping reasons, and NC because it's so tightly coupled to the implementation
16:44 timotimo OK
16:44 hoelzro when I wrote Linenoise, we thought "don't bundle unless we need to"
16:45 mspo but it's referenced by name all over the place
16:45 hahainternet joined #perl6
16:45 hoelzro it's loaded if available
16:45 hoelzro so is Readline
16:46 pdcawley Hmm... I _think_ there's some weirdness going on between Perl6::Compiler and HLL::Compiler
16:47 lnrdo joined #perl6
16:47 hoelzro I wonder if $code ends with "\n" without Linenoise, and with "\\" with Linenoise
16:47 mspo hoelzro: if it's referenced by name and adds good functionality and is unlikely to be replaced by something else...
16:47 pdcawley when P6::C calls HLL::Compiler's interactive, it seems to be passing in a nqp:readlinefh rather than a bare fh. I can't spot the implementation of readlinefh, but I'd not be surprised to find that the simple variant is either doing something clever, or not clever enough.
16:48 hoelzro I'm not opposed to bundling Linenoise with Rakudo, but there's definitely not a lot of love for Linenoise among people I've talked to
16:48 mspo the current repl is rough without anything
16:49 hoelzro you can use rlwrap as well
16:49 mspo yes but why have these options with varying degrees of functionality? :)
16:49 hoelzro well, the reason for Linenoise vs Readline is licensing
16:49 pdcawley Hmm... tests imply that nqp::readlinefh($stdin) grabs the line _and_ the separator.
16:50 hoelzro we can't distribute Readline with Rakudo, afaik
16:50 hoelzro pdcawley: that's consistent with my theory
16:50 mspo gnu readline?
16:50 hoelzro mspo: yes
16:50 mspo what about bsd libedit instead?
16:50 cygx mspo: windows support
16:50 hoelzro if someone writes a binding, we can use that =)
16:50 hoelzro and what cygx said
16:50 pdcawley So simpleminded readlinefh(...) given "foo\\\n" won't match the check in HLL::Compile::Interactive
16:51 pdcawley Is chomp available in nqp?
16:51 mspo powershell might jfw?
16:51 hoelzro there's readlinechompfh
16:51 hoelzro pdcawley: ^
16:51 yqt joined #perl6
16:51 * hoelzro .oO( which I just learned about )
16:52 IWONDER joined #perl6
16:53 llfourn .tell lizmat The backstory part of your presentation was great. Pitty I couldn't see the slides for the more slide assisted parts :)
16:53 yoleaux llfourn: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
16:53 dalek doc: 7124341 | (Stéphane Payrard)++ | doc/Language/faq.pod:
16:53 dalek doc: small clarification
16:53 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/7124341115
16:53 * pdcawley grins at hoelzro
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16:58 timotimo i wonder if the perl6 grammar objects are friendly to lazy loading ...
16:58 timotimo and if not, how to improve that
16:58 timotimo ... how to figure out that? ...
16:59 lucasb joined #perl6
16:59 pdcawley Arsebiscuits, changing HLL::Compiler::readline doesn't seem to do the trick.
16:59 hoelzro timotimo: lazy loading? how do you mean?
17:00 timotimo lazy deserialization
17:00 hoelzro pdcawley: what was the change you made?
17:00 timotimo you know about that?
17:00 lnrdo joined #perl6
17:00 pdcawley hoelzro: change the 'readlinefh' in that method to 'readlinechompfh'
17:00 hoelzro did you recompile both NQP and rakudo?
17:02 pdcawley hoelzro: Thought I had, but can't swear to it.
17:03 pdcawley hoelzro: Is there a trick to it? (cd nqp; make); make doesn't seem to be doing anything at the rakudo level.
17:03 hoelzro do a make install at NQP
17:03 hoelzro then a Configure.pl --gen-nqp && make install at the rakudo one
17:03 hoelzro changing NQP will probably make rakudo angry with its current state
17:03 pdcawley ah... make install!
17:06 timotimo that's right; rakudo depends on the exact version of some of the NQP moarvm files
17:08 pdcawley hoelzro: Bing. O!
17:08 pdcawley So... now to make a pull request for my first perl 6 contribution since I was writing weekly summaries :)
17:08 hoelzro \o/
17:09 hoelzro pdcawley++
17:09 timotimo were you doing the weekly summaries before xfix took over?
17:09 timotimo GlitchMr was his previous name, right?
17:10 lucasb didn't the REPL had multiline support in the past? But I guess nobody liked it, that's why it's gone?
17:10 glucosade joined #perl6
17:10 timotimo it has the \ at the end support if you have linenoise
17:12 lucasb well, I don't use the real REPL. I use a ad-hoc thing like 'rlwrap repl.sh echo6.sh'
17:12 timotimo tbh, i try to avoid the repl at all costs
17:12 lucasb it spawns one instance of rakudo for every evaluation
17:13 timotimo ah
17:15 dalek nqp: 942aaa8 | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/ (5 files):
17:15 dalek nqp: [js] Implement nqp::bindhllsym, nqp::gethllsym.
17:15 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/942aaa8ffb
17:15 dalek nqp: 346adce | (Pawel Murias)++ | t/nqp/97-hll.t:
17:15 dalek nqp: Test nqp::bindhllsym, nqp::gethllsym.
17:15 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/346adce350
17:15 SwellJoe joined #perl6
17:15 lucasb I tried to understand jnthn's gist but it was not clear to me *when* will rakudo stop targeting 6.c and start targeting 6.d
17:16 lucasb [Coke]: what do you mean by 'Need to decide on 6.c track vs. 6.d track' ?
17:17 dalek nqp: 0a6abdd | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/bin/run_tests.pl:
17:17 dalek nqp: Make js-all run test 97.
17:17 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/0a6abdd35c
17:17 [Coke] lucasb: are we going to have separate releases of rakudo for 6.c and 6.d-pre, or a single release that does both? Or ...
17:18 [Coke] The leaning before jnthn went on vacation was, I think, a single release. This has already been made difficult by the commits that have landed on nom.
17:18 pdcawley timotimo: I was doing weekly summaries back when parrot was the only game in town and Dan Sugalski was desperately trying to corral Leo
17:18 pdcawley timotimo: and it was all on mailing lists.
17:19 timotimo wow, you go way back
17:19 Skarsnik hm, could it be interesting have something like eval that just support data dump and not real code?
17:19 mspo bsd libedit doesn't seem to let me type «utf8»
17:20 mspo at least not in netbsd's ftp
17:21 tony-o m: (0..5000).pick.say;
17:21 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«3429␤»
17:21 lucasb if 6.d is going to be a superset of 6.c, then I think there wouldn't be no problem. but seems it's not going to be a superset, right? they will have conflicting features... maybe?
17:21 tony-o NAILED IT
17:22 [Coke] there are already conflicts on nom.
17:22 [Coke] (since changes were made that force 6.c tests to fail)
17:23 lucasb [Coke]++ thanks for worrying and taking care of this
17:24 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
17:24 pdcawley PR submitted.
17:25 pdcawley timotimo: I wasn't actually there when the coffeecups were thrown, but I took over the summaries from Simon Cozens who, I think, was.
17:25 timotimo :)
17:26 pdcawley A remarkably satisfying job, but bloody hell, was it time consuming.
17:28 wamba joined #perl6
17:30 lucasb just sharing a idea for repl feature: to support repl commands like ':set foo' or ',set foo'. and then have 3 modes: line mode, paragraph mode and dot mode. line mode ends at EOL. paragraph ends at empty line (two \n\n). dot mode ends in a line consisting of only a single dot '.', like ed text editor. then one could change the modes with commands ":set mode line", etc.
17:30 lucasb but anyways, this is not P6 specific, just a generic REPL idea.
17:31 lucasb and maybe it's too much stuff for what one would expect from a simple repl
17:34 pdcawley Hmm... am I reading this right, the backend/stages as far as HLL::Compiler is concerned accept strings not streams?
17:36 RabidGravy lawks, precompilation is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay slow on the RPi
17:37 TimToady is there anything that isn't slow on the RPi? :P
17:37 yoleaux 04:27Z <Zoffix> TimToady: unless someone else looked into it, there's a wrong useless sink context warning: https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=127147
17:37 ugexe wait till you try precompiling modules on the jvm with rpi
17:37 pdcawley Because if they _could_ accept streams, then the repl could have some kind of 'code stream' that does 'readlines' on demand and let the backend pull code...
17:37 lnrdo joined #perl6
17:38 pdcawley (And if the stream 'knows' the parser it's feeding, could even vary the prompt on parser state).
17:38 * TimToady drove to SoCal and back yesterday, so should be more available toady ;)
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17:39 hoelzro pdcawley: streaming grammars would be really nice
17:40 pdcawley hoelzro: Does perl6 -e file convert file to a string before feeding the grammar? Or does it pass a filehandle?
17:41 hoelzro I'm actually not sure
17:42 hoelzro it reads the whole file into memory
17:42 hoelzro (src/HLL/Compiler.nqp:method evalfiles)
17:43 pdcawley Oh. Drat.
17:43 pdcawley That's... annoying.
17:43 hoelzro yeah =/
17:44 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
17:44 hoelzro I would love it if we could have SAX-y grammar objects, that return a continuation or something when they can still parse more, yield action method objects to callbacks at certain levels, and discard the AST at certain points
17:44 hoelzro mainly for writing things like an XMPP client
17:44 hoelzro lunch &
17:45 pdcawley hoelzro: I don't even care about that. Just a grammar that consumes something that does a stream role would let the repl be more capable without having to talk to the grammar much at all.
17:46 hoelzro yeah, I'm just laying out my dream, which probably won't happen until (6.d|6.e)
17:46 pdcawley All it has to do is, when the grammar calls for more characters from the buffer and there is none, call readline
17:46 hoelzro the thing is, for stream-based grammars to work, you'd need the VM to understand streams
17:46 hoelzro but what are streams but callbacks that yield strings?
17:46 hoelzro really-lunch-now &
17:47 pdcawley hoelzro: I suppose for what I'm thinking about, a something akin to a tied string would allow for a smarter repl...
17:47 lnrdo joined #perl6
17:48 pdcawley hoelzro: Assuming we don't do too much backtracking in the parse, the parser is essentially treating the code buffer as a stream.
17:49 TimToady we've had Cat strings specced for streaming purposes a long time now, but nobody got around to implementing them yet
17:50 hankache joined #perl6
17:50 TimToady shouldn't actually be terribly difficult since we already use ropes underneath
17:50 hankache hello #perl6
17:51 pdcawley TimToady: Implementable at the NQP level? Or deeper?
17:51 TimToady but I'll bet there're still plenty of places where the code assumes it can take the length of a string
17:51 TimToady ropes in MoarVM anyway
17:51 TimToady dunno how that maps in jvm-land
17:52 nzkindest joined #perl6
17:53 konobi pmurias: have any more luck with the JS backend?
17:54 pdcawley TimToady: Sounds like it's not something I'd be comfortable trying to implement if it needs to be done in Moar. Shame.
17:54 pmurias konobi: with implementing Cat string, or you mean how are things on the JS backend going?
17:55 kellyjones joined #perl6
17:55 konobi pmurias: just how things on the JS backend are going... has beena while since i had a chance to look
17:58 pmurias mostly implementing various missing nqp ops, etc. will apply soon for a grant to work on getting the backend to support rakudo
17:58 lnrdo joined #perl6
17:58 pmurias fixed a MoarVM bug that was causing random build failures for the backend
18:00 pdcawley TimToady: where would I find the Cat string spec?
18:01 firstdayonthejob joined #perl6
18:02 lnrdo joined #perl6
18:03 TimToady well, it's more like mentioned various places without going deeply into it
18:04 RabidGravy gosh, testing the module on a RPi is tedious
18:04 TimToady S03, S32/Str, S32/Containers, one mention in S05
18:05 kjs_ joined #perl6
18:05 pmurias joined #perl6
18:05 TimToady RabidGravy: maybe you need to read a good book in parallel?  :)
18:06 TimToady Alternately, write a JIT for that arch...
18:06 RabidGravy :)
18:06 pmurias konobi: nqp-js fails 3 t/nqp tests (which are problematic for various reasons), I'm currently working on stuff that's untested but needed for rakudo
18:06 pmurias konobi: got to afk&
18:09 ZoffixW RabidGravy, do @other-languages run well on RPi? Like Python, Ruby, etc
18:10 timotimo python has the benefit of being a super simple implementation, using super little ram and such
18:10 RabidGravy dunno about Ruby, but python is one of the recommended languages
18:11 RabidGravy but, by jove, this thing actually works!  WE HAVE BLINKEN LIGHTS!
18:11 ZoffixW :o
18:11 TimToady how jovial!
18:11 timotimo cool
18:12 Skarsnik RabidGravy, do a small video!
18:12 ZoffixW ^
18:12 timotimo if someone manages to somehow implement the correct lifecycle of NFA objects, we could have smaller .moarvm files and less deserialization work for most cases
18:12 timotimo hint hint
18:12 timotimo they'd "just" have to complete my "nfatostatelist" branch
18:12 Skarsnik Could be cool to have it in the weekly repport for fun x)
18:13 timotimo it's a bit more involved than what i'd consider an entry-level task
18:13 timotimo i was hoping i could get TimToady to do it :)
18:14 ZoffixW This is pretty disheartening. 5 minutes prior to the death of www.p6c.org this morning, I see cron ran "Jan  4 10:20:01 www CRON[17803]: (modules.perl6.org) CMD (bash update-modules.perl6.org)"
18:14 ZoffixW Not that it implicates it in the death, but still :P
18:14 timotimo BBIAB
18:15 Skarsnik Zoffix, I still have the weid issue with m.p6.org x)
18:15 Skarsnik let me reccord
18:16 lnrdo_ joined #perl6
18:17 Skarsnik Zoffix, http://www.twitch.tv/skarsnikus/v/33576143
18:18 ZoffixW Mr. Nutz nuts?
18:21 Skarsnik It's an arbitrary category for the game Mr. Nutz (too lazy to change my stream title)
18:22 lnrdo joined #perl6
18:24 pdcawley TimToady: Hmm... Cat does look very useful; It'd be lovely if grammar engine was written against some Cat interface rather than a full Str.
18:25 dalek modules.perl6.org: 4f7d360 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | public/js/main.js:
18:25 dalek modules.perl6.org: Don"t focus search box if scroll is not at top
18:25 dalek modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modul​es.perl6.org/commit/4f7d360c35
18:25 ZoffixW Skarsnik, there. Fixed forever! :)
18:26 nzkindest joined #perl6
18:27 pdcawley TimToady: Ah... I see 'Stringy' in the list of types. I guess that's the interface one would hope it's written to.
18:27 Skarsnik Zoffix, I don't know if you notice, the page preload stuff before displaying the right content
18:28 ZoffixW Skarsnik, yeah, I notice that. It's not really a preload, it's the search box getting swapped from the JS-less version to the JS version
18:28 TimToady nqp uses nqp::chars to determine end-of-string in 20 or so places, looks like
18:29 lnrdo joined #perl6
18:30 TimToady so there'd be a bit of work to make EOS determination data-driven rather than position driven, but not comceptually difficult
18:30 TimToady *con
18:32 TimToady at least we did some work last year to make moarvm not quite so exception-happy on looking beyond EOS, which helps
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18:37 pdcawley TimToady: I'm thinking about it in terms of a smarter REPL, but I'm thinking it'd be useful for all sorts of parsing situations, no?
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18:42 TimToady to really be useful in stream parsing, we'd also have to implement <cut> to discard the front of a string, fsdo "discard"
18:42 pdcawley TimToady: do we actually have stream parsing?
18:43 TimToady not without Cat
18:43 TimToady just sayin' we also have to worry about sinks as well as sources
18:43 pdcawley TimToady: Am I misunderstanding the current implementation that seems to be implemented in terms of cursors?
18:43 TimToady well, a cursor has an offset into a string
18:44 pdcawley TimToady: internally, yes, but the interface that the parser works to?
18:44 TimToady yes, the API is mostly relative there, though we do expose .from and .to
18:45 TimToady those would need to be recase as 'offset since we started', not necessarily an offset from a memory location
18:45 TimToady *recast
18:46 TimToady presumably a Cat that is emulating a string interface can have an initial offset to the head as well as a lazy tail
18:46 pdcawley So, no promises that you could actually get back to something you already read. If you need that, you hold onto it yourself, or hold onto another cursor.
18:46 TimToady <cut> is for explicitly throwing away the head
18:46 TimToady but nYI
18:46 pdcawley nYI?
18:46 TimToady not yet implemented
18:46 pdcawley Ah.
18:47 TimToady with bogus caps :)
18:47 TimToady Cat has been specced for most of a decade already...
18:47 pdcawley TimToady: But the spec hasn't been written down :)
18:47 TimToady just hasn't bubbled up to the top of anyone's todo list
18:48 nine [Coke]: I think we really need to figure out how to implement jnthn's suggestion of a separate, overlay setting for 6.d and then move the changes we did to nom there. At least the changes that break 6.c
18:49 alpha123 joined #perl6
18:50 TimToady looks like argfiles and something about leap seconds are the two breakers at the moment
18:51 stmuk_ didn't jnthn recommend two branches nom and master and one of those was 6.c (although I can't remember which and don't have the gist on this machine)
18:51 nzkindest joined #perl6
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18:52 pdcawley TimToady: So, about the first thing I tried to do in Perl 6 involved trying to have sets of value objects and I couldn't work out how to do that without more tapdancing than I wanted to think about, second thing I try to do is have a repl that happily accepts incomplete statements and only triggers eval at the end of an expression a la perl repls. I'm not deliberately trying to pick holes :)
18:54 mst pdcawley: have you found a problem that the repro steps for blew up larry's dev env yet?
18:54 mst pdcawley: because if not, you're still doing better than me :D
18:54 pdcawley mst: Crikey!
18:54 pdcawley No. No I haven't.
18:54 pdcawley mst: Were you poking at it again?
18:55 nine [Coke]: in my view a new release has to contain: git log 2015.12..nom -- src/core/CompUnit
18:56 pdcawley right. Must go. Should've gone hours ago.
18:56 pdcawley Later.
18:56 TimToady I think we should include all the bug fixes that aren't the two breakers, or why do we have a test suite anyway?
18:57 TimToady for sure my loop fix has to go in
18:57 moritz why do we even have breakers?
18:57 TimToady and several LTAs have been improved
18:58 TimToady because inertia; people are still in a bleeding-edge dev mindset, I imagine :)
18:59 moritz so, can we just revert them?
18:59 TimToady we all need to be a little more deliberate about that now
18:59 TimToady well, that's one way to "branch", I guess, but not the only way
19:00 moritz when do we want to incorporate breaking changes again?
19:00 TimToady it's not like a revert is anything irreversible though
19:00 mojca joined #perl6
19:00 moritz because I hate long-lived branches
19:00 mojca who maintains the contents of http://rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo ?
19:00 moritz mojca: I have editing privileges, if that's what you're asking
19:01 TimToady well, maintenance branches are by definition long-lived...
19:01 moritz I don't quite consider myself a maintainer though
19:01 mojca moritz, would it be possible to add further instructions about installing rakudo on OS X?
19:01 mojca There are three package managers for OS X
19:01 TimToady it's hard enough maintaining the dev branch :)
19:01 mojca Current instructions are fine for Homebrew, but instructions for MacPorts would be nice
19:01 moritz mojca: if you give me somthing copy&pastable that is helpful, I can paste it in
19:02 mojca Rakudo Star is available from Homebrew -> Homebrew and MacPorts
19:02 [Coke] mojca: you cut an R* for macports? Danke.
19:02 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
19:03 awwaiid pdcawley: for repl-land, feel free to poke at LREP
19:03 TimToady awwaiid: is that the one that was based on moreinput in the grammar?
19:03 * PerlJam wonders how long it will take before mojca gets editing privs for that page and becomes the de facto "maintainer"  ;)
19:03 nine moritz: have you read this? https://gist.github.com/jnthn/f3a691016c20f0cc4cfa
19:03 stmuk_ https://gist.github.com/jnthn/f3a691016c20f0cc4cfa
19:04 moritz for the record: colomon_, FROGGS, hoelzro, jnthn, lue/ShimmerFairy, myself, PerlJam, pmichaud, raiph, tadzik, timotimo and Util have editing privs on rakudo.org
19:04 stmuk_ snap! stmuk-- too slow
19:04 mojca moritz: "To install rakudo perl and panda: 'sudo port install rakudo panda'. To install modules: 'panda install Task::Star'."
19:05 mojca that is, if the instructions should tell the user how to install rakudo-star; rakudo-star doesn't exist on its own
19:05 stmuk_ ah nom=dev release=master
19:05 xtreak joined #perl6
19:05 mojca [Coke]: I didn't understand
19:06 awwaiid TimToady: no, it is not fancy at all other than using a middleware-based plugin system; otherwise it is just linenoise, nested lexical scope magic, and an "LREP::here" command to conveniently start a repl... "here"
19:06 Skarsnik mojca, rakudo-star are a fixed release of rakudo + select module. Task::Star is not the same x)
19:06 stmuk_ maybe branch master from dev and revert the changes which break roast 6.c?
19:06 stmuk_ s/dev/nom
19:06 mojca moritz: sorry, actually, "Rakudo Star" is not directly available
19:06 moritz mojca: I'm not a big fan of this approach; Rakudo Star is there to bundle versions of modules that work with a particular compiler version
19:06 mojca I only noticed that I tried to edit the sentence in the wrong way
19:06 cpage_ joined #perl6
19:06 moritz mojca: doing a "panda install Task::Star" doesn't give us that
19:07 mojca ok, sorry
19:07 Skarsnik moritz, can you bump a version of dbiish for R* btw? I am not sure how to do that
19:07 mojca then maybe just mention installing rakudo alone
19:07 mojca I tried to package rakudo-star, but the December release hasn't been available yet
19:07 TimToady perhaps Task::Star is a bit misnamed
19:07 raoulvdberge joined #perl6
19:08 mojca else, if someone can help me figure out how to package rakudo-star as an "add-on" to moarvm, npq, rakudo & panda, that would be great
19:08 moritz nine, stmuk_, TimToady: I've skimmed this proposal before, and mostly liked it. Now on second read-through, I'm not sure what we do when somebody does commit backwards incompatible changes to nom; if nobody takes "defensive" actions, there'll never be a merge into master again
19:08 mojca it would be a bit stupid to have two packages, rakudo and rakudo-star, conflicting with each other
19:08 moritz mojca: yes, we need to cut a Star release; it's absence shouldn't encourage us to write misleading documetnation
19:09 mojca it would be better to have rakudo-star depend on rakudo
19:09 protium joined #perl6
19:09 moritz mojca: right, that's the sane approach (rakudo-star being a kind of meta package that depends on rakudo + modules)
19:09 mojca but which modules?
19:09 mojca how do I know what else to package and how?
19:10 ZoffixW Well, I give up with figuring out why www.p6c.org died. I see nothing in the logs other than testers.perl6.org barfing some sort of JSON into syslog, but that's been happening for ages. Nothing in web server logs. There's 1800MB of free RAM+swap, so all good. The last command I see was the start of the modules.perl6.org DB build and I reviewed all of its code and don't see anything that would make it use all of that RAM from its normal 180KB run
19:10 moritz mojca: star has a list of modules that it includes
19:10 ZoffixW ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
19:10 moritz mojca: https://github.com/rakudo/star/tree/master/modules
19:10 moritz mojca: how? dunno; never packaged anything for the mac
19:11 mojca moritz, this is not a mac-specific question
19:11 mojca I could ask the same question for linux
19:12 mojca assuming that rakudo, nqp, moarvm, panda are already installed: what's the easiest way to install exactly the specified modules?
19:12 mojca to match rakudo-star 201x.y
19:12 kjs_ joined #perl6
19:12 moritz mojca: well, with Debian packages, I'd create one package per module
19:12 moritz mojca: and probably some tooling analogous to dh-make-perl to make that less arduous manually
19:12 mojca and then rakudo-star would depend on all those modules?
19:12 moritz yes
19:13 moritz or, if that's too much work, one rakudo-star-modules package
19:13 moritz or maybe rakudo-star contains them directly, and depends on rakudo to provide the compiler
19:14 moritz you can get creative :-)
19:14 mojca in perl5 we are currently fighting because there are more than 1000 packages and hardly enough maintainers, so most modules get outdated very soon
19:14 mojca so having some simple single package for now with these modules might be handy
19:15 [Coke] I still argue that making R* available via ports at all seems odd. if ports want to make a distro, they can.
19:15 moritz ... and probably be a nightmare to do properly because you have to track the license for each module etc.
19:15 MadcapJake joined #perl6
19:15 [Coke] (one package per module) that way lies insanity unless we have a way to automate it. (yes, I know people already do this, it's still crazy)
19:16 mojca all in all, would it be bad to list "sudo port install rakudo" on the website then even if rakudo-star won't be available as such
19:16 mojca [Coke], for perl5 we have cpan2port to create a package, but it's a nightmare
19:16 FROGGS joined #perl6
19:17 [Coke] yah. I would like folks to think if there's ab etter way to handle modules when dealing with a packaging system than the status quo.
19:17 [Coke] (I mean, there may not be.)
19:17 mojca in addition to well over 1000 modules, they would multiply with a factor of up to 7 (when we still provided perl5.8, 5.10, 5.12, 5.14, 5.16, 5.18, 5.20)
19:18 ZoffixW :o
19:18 mojca for perl6 we need to find a better way :)
19:19 FROGGS o/
19:19 TimToady would be nice if there was a way to calculate maintrot
19:19 moritz mojca: and it already has great tooling, so "more automation" doesn't seem to be the solution
19:19 mojca the thing is, if some software needs a specific module, the package manager has to provide that module to satisfy the dependency
19:21 mojca so again, would it be acceptable to list just "sudo port install rakudo" for now? It might take a while until we figure out the best way to package rakudo-star.
19:21 moritz I'm painfully aware of that (I maintain lots of internal debian modules for $work)
19:21 moritz mojca: I can add that, yes
19:21 [Coke] so, TL;DR, I'm Ok with telling people that if they want something R* like, they can "sudo port install panda" and then "panda install Task::Star" until we think of something cleverer.
19:21 araujo_ joined #perl6
19:21 lichtkind joined #perl6
19:21 mojca Initially I wanted to package rakudo including moarvm and nqp, but everyone told me that I should package them separately, so I did
19:22 lichtkind colomon / pierre-vigier ping
19:22 mojca HomeBrew has just a single package that ships everything together
19:22 mojca moritz, thank you
19:23 moritz mojca: http://rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo/ updated
19:24 moritz FROGGS: please push your panda bootstrapping branch to rakudo/star
19:24 dalek modules.perl6.org: c0174a8 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | t/02-db-builder/02-github-sou​rce-and-source-base-class.t:
19:24 dalek modules.perl6.org: Formatting
19:24 dalek modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modul​es.perl6.org/commit/c0174a860a
19:24 dalek modules.perl6.org: 6fbbb01 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | modules.perl6.org-init.d:
19:24 dalek modules.perl6.org: Add init.d script in the repo
19:24 dalek modules.perl6.org:
19:24 dalek modules.perl6.org: Note: it is NOT automatically updated from commits
19:24 dalek modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modul​es.perl6.org/commit/6fbbb01d7e
19:24 dalek modules.perl6.org: edbd65f | (Zoffix Znet)++ | Build.PL:
19:24 dalek modules.perl6.org: Add Toadfarm into prereqs
19:24 dalek modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modul​es.perl6.org/commit/edbd65f1a2
19:24 mojca moritz, thanks again; just for completeness, there exists "port info rakudo", but I don't think it's necessary to write a complete tutorial
19:24 FROGGS moritz: yes, I'm preparing it atm
19:25 moritz mojca: aye; I guess port users will know about that
19:25 [Coke] mojca: I'm willing to defer to you on macports (assuming I was the only person pushing for separate packages)
19:25 [Coke] I only started down that road because it let me have a fairly standalone port with little effort on the build step.
19:26 mojca [Coke], can you please elaborate that about separate packages and you being the only one for that?
19:27 [Coke] mojca: I don't know how to elaborate on that.
19:28 [Coke] I can restate it: Do what you want with macports.
19:28 mojca I would like to be at least somewhat compatible with upstream and not reinvent the wheel
19:29 [Coke] If you have a recommendation for macports, I'd trust your recommendation sooner than any plan I had.
19:29 dalek modules.perl6.org: 2521003 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | DEPLOYMENT.md:
19:29 dalek modules.perl6.org: Add "TroubleShooting" section
19:29 dalek modules.perl6.org:
19:29 dalek modules.perl6.org: Explain what it is and how to debug the "Service Not Available" error from Apache
19:29 dalek modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modul​es.perl6.org/commit/2521003ade
19:30 mojca [Coke], I only hope that someone will manage to fix paths of MoarVM's dependency and I will need further guidance about panda
19:30 mojca but at least it kind-of-works for now
19:31 dalek modules.perl6.org: c321849 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | DEPLOYMENT.md:
19:31 dalek modules.perl6.org: Add TOC
19:31 dalek modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modul​es.perl6.org/commit/c3218495f5
19:32 ZoffixW moritz, inet.d script for modules.perl6.org installed.
19:32 ZoffixW Should start up on next reboot
19:32 moritz ZoffixW: thanks
19:33 Rotwang does it take long for rt.perl.org to "catch" a reply?
19:34 dalek modules.perl6.org: 6f88e6c | (Zoffix Znet)++ | DEPLOYMENT.md:
19:34 dalek modules.perl6.org: Fix Markdown formatting
19:34 dalek modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modul​es.perl6.org/commit/6f88e6c880
19:34 lnrdo joined #perl6
19:35 moritz Rotwang: depends on whether you land in the manual spam filtering queue or not
19:35 lnrdo joined #perl6
19:35 moritz Rotwang: if not, it's usually in the one-digit minutes (often <3)
19:35 Juerd (often ♥)
19:38 Rotwang How come "Instead of taking low quality medication try visiting our really trusted and popular pharmacy!" topic went through and mine is stuck in the spam filter
19:38 Rotwang :<
19:38 ZoffixW :P
19:40 DrArch joined #perl6
19:40 moritz Rotwang: because 90% of rt.perl.org tickets are about pharmacy. /s
19:40 Skarsnik 496 modules, who will publish the 500 nm
19:40 jrpyle joined #perl6
19:41 DrArch folks need some info on which and why to opt from, eval, TryCatch, try:tiny or Error, I know, lot of documentation is there amd I have read a lot. just need another pespective, if any one can guide, appreciate. thanks.
19:41 lnrdo joined #perl6
19:42 moritz DrArch: since this is #perl6: the built-in mechanism in Perl 6 are good enough that you don't need any external modules
19:43 ZoffixW DrArch, and if you're asking about those Perl 5 mechanisms, there's #perl channel on this network for that language.
19:44 ZoffixW Skarsnik, I could quickly fill the gap if I try porting my Perl 5 IRC trinkets :P
19:45 Skarsnik I have a Movie::BK2 to write
19:45 ZoffixW These: https://metacpan.org/release/POE​-Component-IRC-PluginBundle-Toys
19:45 timotimo i didn't know you were a movie writer
19:46 RabidGravy Skarsnik, got two ready to go bar the pod and stuff
19:46 DrArch @moritz @ZoffixW thanks, I shall run to them then. appreciate and thanks once again.
19:46 ZoffixW I got one ready to go tonight, unless I waste it gaming
19:46 Skarsnik BK2 is the movie format of bizhawk (a multipurpose console emulator)
19:47 ZoffixW DrArch, yeah, we're a different language in the same family :)
19:47 [Coke] For future bug reporters: When opening RT's, please attach the file instead of linking to (the ephemeral) gist.github.com
19:49 dalek ecosystem: 620dccc | (Sylvain Colinet)++ | META.list:
19:49 dalek ecosystem: Add IRC::Art a module to create irc colored/bold/italic formated string
19:49 dalek ecosystem:
19:49 dalek ecosystem: see https://github.com/Skarsnik/perl6-irc-art
19:49 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/e​cosystem/commit/620dcccbf2
19:50 leont joined #perl6
19:50 ZoffixW XD
19:51 ZoffixW Skarsnik, I wish I had that for me HNY IRC bot  on New Years :)
19:51 Skarsnik You should have asked (or use Inline::p5 and use Acme::IRC::Art)
19:52 Skarsnik I copy the tests and the method than handle text (because it's a big wtf) x)
19:52 ZoffixW A thought have not occurred. A lot of people spam ASCII art on #freenode-newyears so I only now recall that that happens :)
19:52 Skarsnik It's not for ascii art
19:53 Skarsnik well it's like a gd lib for irc x)
19:53 ZoffixW Well, yeah :)
19:53 ZoffixW lemme try it out
19:54 llfourn joined #perl6
19:57 pi4 joined #perl6
19:58 lizmat TimToady moritz I have taken the "nom" is dev branch pretty literally when adding IO::CatHandle and friends
19:58 yoleaux 16:53Z <llfourn> lizmat: The backstory part of your presentation was great. Pitty I couldn't see the slides for the more slide assisted parts :)
19:59 moritz lizmat: and that's a good think, because it makes us discuss these things :-)
19:59 moritz *thing
20:00 lizmat anyways, IO::CatHandle changes should be revertable by reverting only 3 commits
20:01 _nadim joined #perl6
20:01 lizmat The Date/DateTime changes would be a little more involved, but still doable, just say the word
20:02 lizmat fwiw, the DateTime.later changes also fixed a bug (well, at least in my opinion)
20:03 Perl6IRC joined #perl6
20:03 ZoffixW Perl6IRC, test
20:03 Perl6IRC ZoffixW, 4,4 4,4 4,4 4,4
20:03 Perl6IRC ZoffixW, 4,4 13,4W13,4o13,4o13h13o13o13 13613.13,c
20:03 Perl6IRC ZoffixW, 4,4 4,4 4,4 4,4
20:03 Perl6IRC ZoffixW, 4,4 4,4 4,4 4,4
20:03 tadzik :o
20:04 ZoffixW Skarsnik, works! :D
20:04 ZoffixW This is the code https://gist.github.com/zoff​ixznet/7c2c6ac7f8a4902d97bb
20:04 ZoffixW Skarsnik++
20:05 dalek nqp: 4b1236e | pdcawley++ | src/HLL/Compiler.nqp:
20:05 dalek nqp: Make HLL::Compiler::readline chomp
20:05 dalek nqp:
20:05 dalek nqp: Continued statement detection in `interactive` expects that any code read in
20:05 dalek nqp:  will have had the line separator removed, which is what Linenoise (and
20:05 * ZoffixW <3 the  method irc-to-me/.respond duo in IRC::Client implemented last night
20:05 dalek nqp: presumably Readline) do. However, the fallback readline doesn't.
20:05 dalek nqp:
20:05 dalek nqp: This fixes that.
20:05 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/4b1236e535
20:05 dalek nqp: 220390a | lizmat++ | src/HLL/Compiler.nqp:
20:05 dalek nqp: Merge pull request #268 from pdcawley/patch-1
20:05 dalek nqp:
20:05 dalek nqp: Make HLL::Compiler::readline chomp
20:05 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/220390a5b9
20:06 Michy joined #perl6
20:06 [Coke] pdcawley++ #committing
20:06 Michy ciao a tuti
20:06 Michy ciao a tutti
20:06 Michy left #perl6
20:07 TEttinger joined #perl6
20:07 lizmat I was thinking about copying the list of contributors of the 6.c announcement into a separate file under doc/language
20:08 lizmat and maintain it for the world to see ?
20:08 Skarsnik Zoffix, good :) if you have any api/name changing to do, I am fine with it
20:08 Skarsnik like result.. I did not have a better idea
20:09 [Coke] lizmat: to what purpose?
20:10 [Coke] if it's one more file I have to update each release. mleh.
20:10 lizmat to give credit to the people working on Perl 6 ?
20:10 lizmat [Coke]: I wouldn't worry about that so much...
20:10 [Coke] It's already in the repo as part of the release announcement. You could link to it rather than duping it.
20:10 lizmat if *that* is the deal breaker, I will take it upon me to fix up that list in doc
20:11 hyan joined #perl6
20:12 lizmat [Coke]: but not in a form that is easily readable / updatable
20:12 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
20:12 PerlJam lizmat: this is why we ask forgiveness  :)
20:13 nemo joined #perl6
20:13 [Coke] Given the amount of effort that went into creating that list, I'm not sure I want to commit to updating it for every perl 6 repo/effort we included. And if it's for rakudo only, we already have CREDITS. I vote 0, if you feel strongly about it, go ahead. :)
20:14 nemo You know, I was reading http://doc.perl6.org/language/unicode_entry  and I can't believe there's no mention of my very fav digraph system. XCompose!  works in all my apps and has a nice config.  I use it for emoji silliness like  setting :D to 😃
20:15 moritz nemo: then please patch it!
20:15 nemo https://github.com/kragen/xco​mpose/blob/master/dotXCompose  insanely large .XCompose
20:15 ZoffixW Skarsnik, for the API, I'd be returning invocants from the drawing methods so you could chain them as well as add a separate fg/bg colour-setting methods, so If I have to draw a bunch of rectangles then I don't need to specify the color all over the place. At least that's what I've done in my P5 PDF module (https://metacpan.org/pod/Mojo::PDF#SYNOPSIS) . Not sure how applicable that is for IRC art
20:15 nemo moritz: that probably requires registering for something 😝
20:15 nemo <capslock> + :p = 😝  in mine btw 😃
20:16 nemo and, yeah, »+«  is just  >>+<<  plus hitting capslock twice
20:16 ZoffixW nemo, "for something" you mean github and you wish not do so?
20:16 ZoffixW nemo, there's an open Issue just for that that's dying for a contributor: https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/286
20:16 nemo ZoffixW: oh. yeah, I technically have a github account, but never really used it
20:17 nemo ZoffixW: not a fan of git, and their site in general sucks at degrading gracefully
20:17 [Coke] Note: I need to include our financial sponsors in an updated Christmas release notice. If you feel your employer made a significant contribution to the Perl 6 effort by contributing your time (or other resources), please privmsg so I can make sure they get considered for inclusion. Thanks. (This covers any of the related-to-p6 efforts going back to 2000)
20:18 [Coke] nemo: It beats the alternative.
20:18 nemo [Coke]: mercurial?
20:18 nemo [Coke]: Bugzilla?
20:18 [Coke] (which is: anything we would have to maintain ourselves)
20:18 nemo ah
20:18 [Coke] so, yes.
20:18 nemo yeah, is kinda funny how centralised dvcs is these days
20:18 ZoffixW nemo, fwiw, if you just write the docs and throw a diff in a pastebin, I'm sure someone will be happy to merge that for you
20:18 Skarsnik Zoffix, interesting
20:18 ZoffixW Or not even a diff.. just the docs
20:19 mst nemo: get ingy's git-hub project
20:19 mst gives you a CLI interface that lets you avoid the terrible GUI
20:19 nemo [Coke]: we opted for http://hg.hedgewars.org personally, wasn't that much of a pain, although a few contributers use bitbucket
20:19 nemo mst: sounds interesting. does it do issue tracking too?
20:19 * nemo searches
20:20 mst that's ... why I suggested it ...
20:20 nemo lol
20:20 nemo that wasn't obv
20:20 mst it was the issues you were complaing about so
20:20 nemo one of...
20:20 mst go look at the tool already :D
20:21 nemo mst: already doing that
20:21 mst https://github.com/git-commands
20:21 nemo already half-way through doc
20:21 nemo but thanks for linking eventually 😉
20:21 * nemo clones it
20:21 nemo hm. might be one of the few things I actually use "git" for
20:21 nemo usually I rely on hg as a git bridge
20:21 mst first I had to remember where to look that URL up ;)
20:21 stmuk_ there is also an official and similar hub wrapper from github themselves
20:22 Odud joined #perl6
20:22 stmuk_ https://github.com/github/hub
20:22 mst I have more faith in ingy understanding how to produce a decent grumpy minimalist's CLI
20:22 nemo mst: TBH I would have been totally fine if their issue tracker worked in w3m like bugzilla does ☺
20:23 nemo but I'll take a cli
20:23 sno joined #perl6
20:23 mst ah
20:23 mst I'd still rather a CLI
20:23 nemo yeah, prob
20:23 nemo mst: I much prefer editing our wiki in the cli
20:24 nemo hg pull -u, futz around in sed and vi, then hg ci... ♥
20:24 kjs_ joined #perl6
20:24 nemo http://hedgewars.org/kb/ (aforementioned wiki for context)
20:25 nemo aaaanyway, will take ZoffixW's suggestion and whip up a plug for XCompose for that doc and link him to it ☺
20:25 ZoffixW nemo, do you use w3m for regular web browsing all the time?
20:25 nemo ZoffixW: quite a lot actually!
20:25 nemo ZoffixW: I currently have 22 tabs open
20:25 nemo also nice due to stupid moronic firewalls
20:26 ZoffixW nemo, are a lot of sites completely unusable? :)
20:26 nemo ZoffixW: not that many really
20:26 nemo ZoffixW: just web "apps" and you kinda expect that
20:26 nzkindest joined #perl6
20:27 nemo ZoffixW: amusingly, some sites are more usable than if you, say, use privacy code... For example.  If you don't whitelist google for fonts or javascript you might not get sites that render 'cause some idjit decided to avoid "flash of unstyled content" by *defaulting* to a hide css instead of adding it in in JS
20:27 nemo ZoffixW: result, failure to load a remote resource can result in a blank page until you disable CSS
20:27 nemo but shows up fine in w3m
20:27 nemo firefox readability mode can help w/ that too
20:28 nemo ZoffixW: fair number of badly-written expand/collapse stuff out there has same behaviour
20:29 ZoffixW I'm kinda disappointed modules.perl6.org is not working properly
20:29 patrickz joined #perl6
20:30 Skarsnik scrolling is fixed, yay
20:30 ZoffixW ;)
20:31 sjn p6: say 1 + e ** (π * i); # Euler's idententity = 0
20:31 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«0+1.22464679914735e-16i␤»
20:31 Skarsnik how work koalitee? that still confuse me : http://modules.perl6.org/#​sort-col=2&amp;sort-dir=a
20:32 ZoffixW Skarsnik, https://github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/blob/​master/lib/ModulesPerl6/Metrics/Koalatee.pm#L22
20:32 TimToady m: say 1 + e ** (π * i) ≅ 0
20:32 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«True␤»
20:32 sjn ok, so it's just because π is too irrational then? :)
20:32 Skarsnik oh make sense
20:32 TimToady m: say (1 + e ** (π * i)).Num.perl
20:32 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«0e0␤»
20:33 TimToady most common numeric methods are approximate
20:34 dalek star/release: 3e3e9b0 | FROGGS++ | modules/ (20 files):
20:34 dalek star/release: attempt at bootstrapping panda directly
20:34 dalek star/release: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/3e3e9b019d
20:34 FROGGS moritz: ^^
20:34 FROGGS moritz: though, it Does Not Work Yet™
20:36 moritz FROGGS: thanks, will take a look soon (I hope :-)
20:36 FROGGS moritz: thing is that I can change the bin-dir of site for bootstrap.pl, but that shells out to panda and then the changed bin-dir is lost
20:36 FROGGS panda usually uses environment vars to transfer information like that... dunno if I want to do it the same way
20:37 Rotwang joined #perl6
20:38 moritz FROGGS: I'd love to have panda install --into=site option or so
20:38 moritz FROGGS: but environment variables would be OK too
20:39 adu joined #perl6
20:40 zakharyas joined #perl6
20:40 dalek doc: c40b7cd | lizmat++ | doc/Language/contributors.pod:
20:40 dalek doc: First version of documented contributors
20:40 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/c40b7cd1ea
20:42 nemo ZoffixW: http://m8y.org/tmp/perl6.txt here ya go
20:42 hankache joined #perl6
20:45 * PerlJam idly wonders if Test.pm6 could forego is_approx() in favor of ≅ instead
20:46 dalek rakudo/nom: f7f9172 | moritz++ | docs/module_management.md:
20:46 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix typo
20:46 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f7f9172c9a
20:46 moritz PerlJam: it could use ≅ inside is-approx, but you really we really want to retain the test function for better diagnostics
20:46 moritz 7w 11
20:46 dalek doc: c40ffa0 | lizmat++ | doc/Language/glossary.pod:
20:46 dalek doc: Fix header thinkos
20:46 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/c40ffa04c1
20:47 dalek doc: ca3147b | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Language/unicode_entry.pod:
20:47 dalek doc: List Compose Unicode entry
20:47 dalek doc:
20:47 dalek doc: Closes #286. nemo++ Relevant IRC conversation: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/p​erl6/2016-01-04#i_11828959
20:47 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/ca3147b0d7
20:47 ZoffixW nemo++
20:47 masak m: sub infix:<w>($l, $r) { "\\o/" }; 7 w 11
20:47 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: ( no output )
20:47 masak m: sub infix:<w>($l, $r) { "\\o/" }; say 7 w 11
20:47 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«\o/␤»
20:47 masak m: sub infix:<w>($l, $r) { "\\o/" }; say 7w 11
20:47 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/1J3SjbKTxb␤Confused␤at /tmp/1J3SjbKTxb:1␤------> 3sub infix:<w>($l, $r) { "\\o/" }; say 77⏏5w 11␤»
20:47 * masak thought so
20:47 pi4 joined #perl6
20:48 nemo ZoffixW: nifty
20:48 dalek ecosystem: 454c0e2 | (Dan Kogai)++ | META.list:
20:48 dalek ecosystem: Add Num::HexFloat to ecosystem
20:48 dalek ecosystem:
20:48 dalek ecosystem: See https://github.com/dankogai/p6-num-hexfloat/
20:48 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/e​cosystem/commit/454c0e294a
20:48 dalek ecosystem: 4d50a97 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | META.list:
20:48 dalek ecosystem: Merge pull request #114 from dankogai/patch-1
20:48 dalek ecosystem:
20:48 dalek ecosystem: Add Num::HexFloat to ecosystem
20:48 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/e​cosystem/commit/4d50a97c6f
20:49 ZoffixW 2 more until 500 \o/
20:49 nemo ZoffixW: yeah, I mostly use .XCompose for silly emoji, and stuff like ಠ_ಠ and ◕‿◕, but perl 6 might actually give me an excuse to use it in code 😃
20:49 ZoffixW nemo, for some reason my compose often stops working -_-
20:49 nemo ZoffixW: what's your window manager?
20:50 ZoffixW m: sub term:<ಠ_ಠ> { say "e16.9999999" }; ಠ_ಠ
20:50 camelia rakudo-moar 812a48: OUTPUT«e16.9999999␤»
20:50 nemo heh
20:51 ZoffixW I'm on Englightenment 0.16.999
20:51 nemo oh. hm
20:51 ZoffixW (yeah, it's long overdue for an upgrade)
20:51 ZoffixW But I hear they made it horrible and I really really like how it works
20:51 ZoffixW (right now)
20:51 avenj e16 was my favorite wm for a long time
20:51 nemo ZoffixW: http://ಠ_ಠ.m8y.org/ಠ_ಠ  btw  - no, this has no good reason for existence.  I just link people to it when appropriate ☺
20:51 ZoffixW heh
20:51 nemo ZoffixW: much like http://☠.m8y.org  which I mostly use for TLAP
20:52 llfourn joined #perl6
21:03 Skarsnik Zoffix, oh you fixed the generated README.md x)
21:05 [Coke] lizmat: the AUTHOR section of the glossary seems to be from a while ago. I'd probably just remove it.
21:06 lizmat [Coke]: not sure what you mean?
21:06 [Coke] "Patrick Michaud <pmichaud@pobox.com> is the primary author
21:06 [Coke] and maintainer."
21:07 [Coke] is that still true in 2016?
21:07 [Coke] oh. perhaps the file I found isn't the one you just touched! ;)
21:08 lizmat I created a new file
21:08 [Coke] hey, we have a glossary in both rakudo & doc. :)
21:08 lizmat these strings don't currently occur in doc
21:08 [Coke] sorry. Excuse me while I go get more caffeine. :
21:08 [Coke] lizmat: right, I saw the commit, then went to rakudo and found docs/glossary*
21:08 [Coke] my bad entirely.
21:08 lizmat ah, good point
21:09 lizmat I will ravage that as well then and remove it afterwards
21:16 sjoshi joined #perl6
21:26 pierre-v_ joined #perl6
21:29 dalek ecosystem: 542c3b1 | RabidGravy++ | META.list:
21:29 dalek ecosystem: Add RPi::Device::SMBus
21:29 dalek ecosystem:
21:29 dalek ecosystem: https://github.com/jonathanstowe/RPi-Device-SMBus
21:29 dalek ecosystem:
21:29 dalek ecosystem: And 500!
21:29 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/e​cosystem/commit/542c3b18fa
21:30 gfldex .seen mberends
21:30 yoleaux I saw mberends 26 Sep 2014 19:50Z in #perl6: <mberends> lizmat++
21:31 gfldex i unbusted http-server-simple
21:31 lizmat hmmm...  that karma was a very late repeat :-)
21:31 masak is that a first? karma through seenbot?
21:31 masak probably not.
21:31 gfldex how long should i wait for the pull-request before i take over the module?
21:31 RabidGravy I've waited eight months
21:32 tadzik well, you do have a fork already
21:32 n0tjack joined #perl6
21:32 tadzik it'll not be the first case if you apply for subsituting the original module with your fork in the module ecosystem
21:32 diakopter .karma lizmat
21:32 diakopter karma lizmat
21:33 [Coke] ENOKARMABOT lo these last 10 years.
21:33 [Coke] ISTR there being on #parrot back in the day.
21:33 PerlJam we store our karma in the universe
21:33 diakopter there was one here around 4-5 years ago I think
21:34 masak karma is part of this community, but we don't keep count, because that's not the point :)
21:36 diakopter it's more like kudos
21:36 sprocket_ joined #perl6
21:37 mspo it's only fun if you also get negative
21:38 gfldex :-| no LICENSE file
21:38 PerlJam Usually people give themselves negative karma when they do something ... unwise.
21:39 gfldex is there a rule about modules in the eco system and lack of license?
21:39 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
21:39 [Coke] Rules? maybe a guideline.
21:39 PerlJam gfldex: no "rules", but there are some suggestions and community peer pressure.
21:39 masak gfldex: if you don't have a license, then only copyright applies, I guess. and any copying or modification is a copyright infringement and punishable by law.
21:40 * masak is not a lawyer
21:40 gfldex i just broke the law \o/
21:41 hankache anything built on top of perl has to be artistic 2.0 licensed no?
21:41 Zoffix joined #perl6
21:41 PerlJam hankache: What does "built on top of" mean?
21:42 hankache built using?
21:42 PerlJam hankache: on the face of it that does not look like a true statement
21:42 PerlJam hankache: then, definitely no.
21:42 gfldex that leave the question if panda (and it's author) are complicit of copyright infringement. I would say yes, for germany (see Störerhaftung)
21:42 hankache a module for Perl 6 needs Perl 6
21:42 hankache it cannot run on anything else
21:42 Skarsnik it need something that implement perl 6
21:42 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
21:42 awwaiid m: DateTime.new(1451915781.000284).say # I'd like to get a DateTime from a timestamp
21:42 camelia rakudo-moar f7f917: OUTPUT«2016-01-04T13:56:21.000284Z␤»
21:43 awwaiid hm. maybe that doesn't work in rakudo 2015.12?
21:43 Zoffix hankache, err, why would it need to be Artistic 2?
21:43 [Coke] modules don't have to be artistic 2.0, no
21:43 Zoffix hankache, you can license your code anyway you like.
21:43 hankache no idea, i was asking
21:43 Skarsnik awwaiid, hm probably
21:43 awwaiid rakudo 2015.12 say s"Default constructor for 'DateTime' only takes named arguments"
21:43 Zoffix m: DateTime.new(1451915781.000284.Int).say # awwaiid
21:43 camelia rakudo-moar f7f917: OUTPUT«2016-01-04T13:56:21Z␤»
21:43 hankache i thought there is a share-alike thing
21:44 Zoffix m: DateTime.new(1451915781.000284.Instant).say # awwaiid
21:44 camelia rakudo-moar f7f917: OUTPUT«Method 'Instant' not found for invocant of class 'Rat'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/i1anu7njPR line 1␤␤»
21:44 gfldex hankache: it's up for the user to check if all licenses he uses are compatible. And artistic is fairly loose to start with.
21:44 Zoffix ehe
21:44 awwaiid msut be my version
21:44 geraud joined #perl6
21:44 Skarsnik awwaiid, that pretty weird, the new could take a str before
21:46 Zoffix It should really treat 1451915781.000284 as an Instant.
21:46 Zoffix Since it handles 1451915781 as an epoch
21:46 awwaiid that's what camelia appears to do here -- works as expected
21:46 Zoffix m: say DateTime.new: 0
21:46 camelia rakudo-moar f7f917: OUTPUT«1970-01-01T00:00:00Z␤»
21:47 rindolf Zoffix: hi, sup?
21:47 rindolf Zoffix: how were the holidays?
21:47 awwaiid oh works on an int
21:47 rindolf PerlJam: hi , long time.
21:47 awwaiid well that's plenty good enough
21:47 PerlJam happy new year rindolf
21:47 Zoffix rindolf, crappy
21:47 * rindolf contemplates writing a smallish app in Perl 6.
21:47 rindolf PerlJam: thanks.
21:48 rindolf Zoffix: oh . :-(
21:48 Skarsnik m: say DateTime.now
21:48 camelia rakudo-moar f7f917: OUTPUT«2016-01-04T22:48:12.027481+01:00␤»
21:48 pierre-vigier joined #perl6
21:48 Zoffix rindolf, I missed the unlimited garbage collection day and now they changed the system to some sort of a trucking picking up the containers and dates changed. So not only do I have a full can of trash that's been sitting for two weeks and will sit for 1 more week, but I can no longer dispose unlimited amounts of recylcing.
21:49 nige1 joined #perl6
21:49 Zoffix And I've no idea how this stuff will play with my hostile neighbours, since we have to share those new containers. -_-
21:49 Skarsnik Zoffix, you patched the wrong file in my module. but I will use the commit to fix in the pm file x)
21:49 Zoffix Skarsnik, oh lol :)
21:49 Skarsnik I generate the readme.md x)
21:50 rindolf Zoffix: ah, I see.
21:50 rindolf PerlJam: sup?
21:51 dalek ecosystem: 0c70c38 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | META.list:
21:51 dalek ecosystem: hostile takeover of http-server-simple
21:51 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/e​cosystem/commit/0c70c38104
21:53 PerlJam rindolf: nothing much.  Trying to stay awake at work after a really long day yesterday
21:53 llfourn joined #perl6
21:54 rindolf PerlJam: ah.
21:56 Zoffix "Excess bags of recyclables or organics do not need to be tagged."  and I can buy tags for a $1 and have extra bags of regular garbage, and I guess the truck driver will be picking those up? Man, the City really messed up the system -_-
21:59 masak Zoffix: but did they mess it up using Perl 6?
21:59 masak probably not
21:59 diakopter *snort
22:02 dalek doc: 040a5d5 | lizmat++ | doc/Language/unicode_texas.pod:
22:02 dalek doc: Start with definitive table of Unicode<->Texas
22:02 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/040a5d5520
22:02 diakopter lizmat: cool! I've always wanted such a thing
22:03 lizmat diakopter: please let me know of any errors / omissions
22:04 diakopter (mostly because I can't be bothered to learn to type the "shorter" ones
22:04 diakopter )
22:04 masak lizmat++
22:04 diakopter (they feel *much* longer to me)
22:05 dalek doc: f01297e | lizmat++ | doc/Language/unicode_texas.pod:
22:05 dalek doc: ∞ has nothing to do with sets
22:05 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f01297efbf
22:06 Zoffix This looks weird. Unless my browser/IRC client are tricking me: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/040a5d55​20#diff-884b6f23f36b40ba634837c82e19efe8R32
22:07 Zoffix .u ⁻
22:07 yoleaux U+207B SUPERSCRIPT MINUS [Sm] (⁻)
22:07 Zoffix .u ⁻
22:07 yoleaux U+207B SUPERSCRIPT MINUS [Sm] (⁻)
22:07 Zoffix .u ¯
22:07 yoleaux U+00AF MACRON [Sk] (¯)
22:08 [Coke] docs sooo slooooow
22:08 lizmat I have no idea why that is in there, but I lifted it from Grammar.nqp
22:09 geekosaur works for me fwiw
22:09 lizmat [Coke]: are you referring to the site, or generating the pages ?
22:09 geekosaur (then again I hacked super/sub +/- into my prompt as part of git status...)
22:09 dalek doc: 643ab8b | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Language/unicode_texas.pod:
22:09 dalek doc: Use macron instead of minus
22:09 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/643ab8b619
22:10 Zoffix Looks very different on my terminal, even though I can't tell the difference on IRC: http://i.imgur.com/g4UTQSn.png
22:10 diakopter m: use Acme::Meow;
22:10 camelia rakudo-moar f7f917: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find Acme::Meow in:␤    /home/camelia/.perl6/2015.12-94-gf7f9172␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/site␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/vendor␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6␤    Co…»
22:10 lizmat Zoffix: so I did a pasto ?
22:10 lizmat .u ¯
22:10 yoleaux U+00AF MACRON [Sk] (¯)
22:10 lizmat (guess I did, Zoffix++)
22:11 PerlJam Macron as superscript minus for exponentiation is weird.
22:11 lizmat m: say 3¯3
22:11 camelia rakudo-moar f7f917: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/36v6gopVbG␤Bogus postfix␤at /tmp/36v6gopVbG:1␤------> 3say 37⏏5¯3␤    expecting any of:␤        infix␤        infix stopper␤        postfix␤        statement end␤        statement modif…»
22:11 Zoffix PerlJam, it is, but it's the default on the compose+^-
22:11 colomon joined #perl6
22:11 lizmat m: say 3¯³
22:11 camelia rakudo-moar f7f917: OUTPUT«0.037037␤»
22:11 Zoffix .u ¯
22:11 yoleaux U+00AF MACRON [Sk] (¯)
22:11 Zoffix (that was my compose sequence)
22:11 [Coke] lizmat: building the site, not browsing.
22:11 lizmat m: say 3⁻³
22:12 camelia rakudo-moar f7f917: OUTPUT«0.037037␤»
22:12 [Coke] I keep looking at it, but it's hard to break off a piece that is easy to speed up
22:12 [Coke] I am tempted to make the build more ||, anyway. (whether in straight perl 6 or with a make file)
22:13 lizmat [Coke]: what is it exactly that you're running ?
22:13 [Coke] "make"
22:13 mojca joined #perl6
22:14 Zoffix It was using 750MB on my box today. The parrallel stuff will want moar :P
22:14 Zoffix (of RAM)
22:18 dalek doc: f24d91c | lizmat++ | doc/Language/contributors.pod:
22:18 dalek doc: Get better index placement
22:18 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f24d91cfcb
22:20 sprocket_ joined #perl6
22:23 dalek doc: ffd2148 | lizmat++ | doc/Language/ (2 files):
22:23 dalek doc: Add lemma for Pull Request
22:23 dalek doc:
22:23 dalek doc: And fix the link from the list of contributors
22:23 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/ffd2148885
22:25 yqt joined #perl6
22:26 atta joined #perl6
22:28 Rotwang is there moar/nqp hacking guide anywhere? I'm really struggling with making the thing to compile with my changeset
22:29 PerlJam Rotwang: there's https://github.com/edumentab/r​akudo-and-nqp-internals-course
22:29 PerlJam I don't think there's a "deeper" guide
22:30 Rotwang PerlJam: thanks
22:30 Rotwang am I the only one who thinks that build scripts aren't wonderful?
22:32 * geekosaur reserves judgement, having seen some rather heinous build scripts (and indeed sometimes maintaining them...)
22:32 geekosaur well, makefiles
22:32 geekosaur which is just a build script with a funny name, really
22:33 PerlJam and a funny syntax
22:33 PerlJam and weird quirks
22:34 Rotwang I've done tons of makefiles
22:34 Rotwang make isn't that bad
22:34 PerlJam Clearly make has withstood the test of time  (nothing has adequately supplanted it yet :)
22:35 masak nowadays, when I have a compilation error in a module that I `use` from a script, I get the same compilation error N times instead of 1 time
22:35 masak is anyone else seeing the same thing?
22:35 masak I suspect precompilation is trying and failing over and over along various `use` paths
22:36 dalek ecosystem: 7d0d866 | RabidGravy++ | META.list:
22:36 dalek ecosystem: Add RPi::Device::PiGlow
22:36 dalek ecosystem:
22:36 dalek ecosystem: Blinken lights!
22:36 dalek ecosystem:
22:36 dalek ecosystem: https://github.com/jonathanstowe/RPi-Device-PiGlow
22:36 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/e​cosystem/commit/7d0d866b8c
22:41 b2gills 「」 don't really have Texas equivalents, unless you count Q//
22:41 Skarsnik good night #perl6
22:43 virtualsue joined #perl6
22:43 Zoffix RabidGravy, is that 500th module?
22:44 RabidGravy that was the 501st, my previous one was 500th
22:44 dalek rakudo/nom: 49fcd53 | lizmat++ | docs/glossary.pod:
22:44 dalek rakudo/nom: Remove outdated glossary
22:44 dalek rakudo/nom:
22:44 dalek rakudo/nom: After having moved the lemma's to the doc/Language/glossary.pod
22:44 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/49fcd53c2a
22:47 lizmat m: my $a = 42; say 「foo $a bar」   # indeed, b2gills, seems like they work like q// ?
22:47 camelia rakudo-moar f7f917: OUTPUT«foo $a bar␤»
22:47 b2gills No it is even more basic than that
22:48 lizmat so what's the difference between q// and Q// again ?
22:48 b2gills doesn't even support backslashes Q '\' eq '\\', basically all features are off
22:48 dalek doc: c62fd69 | lizmat++ | doc/Language/glossary.pod:
22:48 dalek doc: Lemmas from docs/glossary.pod
22:48 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/c62fd6915b
22:49 ELBeavers joined #perl6
22:49 DrArch joined #perl6
22:50 dalek doc: c8961ab | lizmat++ | doc/Language/unicode_texas.pod:
22:50 dalek doc: 「」 is really like Q// b2gills++
22:50 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/c8961aba9c
22:55 llfourn joined #perl6
22:56 RabidGravy what larks
22:57 kid51 joined #perl6
22:58 atweiden joined #perl6
22:58 lizmat good night, #perl6!
22:58 RabidGravy toodles
22:58 masak 'night, #perl6
22:59 RabidGravy toodles
22:59 stmuk_ new 6guts
22:59 Rotwang autarch: I've added a comment to https://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2​014/12/22/the-cool-subset-of-main/
23:01 autarch Rotwang: fixed
23:02 Rotwang autarch: that was quick [;
23:02 Rotwang the markup example didn't work for me either, don't know why, have no mental power to look why
23:03 peter__ joined #perl6
23:04 Zoffix lizmat++ # all the speedups
23:05 Zoffix 8x faster :o
23:05 Zoffix timotimo, how did you come up with 485 modules in ecosystem? It's at 499 now
23:06 * Zoffix decides to claim the 500th spot
23:06 stmuk_ Acme::Bump!
23:06 RabidGravy [jonathan@coriolanus ecosystem]$ wc META.list
23:06 RabidGravy 501   501 37572 META.list
23:06 Zoffix RabidGravy, oh, damn, you already claimed it :(
23:06 Zoffix stmuk_, Nah, it won't be crap, it's a Factoid plugin for IRC::Client
23:07 Zoffix RabidGravy, your last was 500th. There's one extra META line for same module with two different versions, for testing AFAIC
23:08 RabidGravy I also now have 31 modules, I may have to give up soon
23:08 peter__ joined #perl6
23:08 Zoffix I have 11 \o/
23:09 RabidGravy MORE!
23:11 yurivish_ joined #perl6
23:12 peter__ joined #perl6
23:17 stmuk_ r/perl6 seems to be coming to life
23:19 RabidGravy Zoffix, you're in the top ten!
23:19 Zoffix RabidGravy, that's pretty sad :/
23:20 Zoffix I wish modules.perl6.org had a sort-by-author field so I could see what I wrote
23:21 colomon joined #perl6
23:21 Zoffix Well, 3/11 are mostly useless :D
23:22 Zoffix Seen this guy on P5? https://metacpan.org/author/PERLANCAR
23:22 Zoffix 621 dists...
23:23 RabidGravy that's insane
23:24 leont Zoffix: and about 3 of them are used by other people, at most
23:24 stmuk_ maybe perl6.org should have modules.perl6.org more obvious on the home pahe
23:24 RabidGravy also a lot of wheel reinvention
23:25 Zoffix leont, that many you think? :D I dunno, App::rmhere sounds like a killer app
23:26 leont I'm trying to be generous ;-)
23:26 Zoffix stmuk_, it's on every page! :D
23:26 stmuk_ "below the fold"
23:27 stmuk_ maybe replace the advent calendar box by modules.perl6.org plug?
23:28 stmuk_ come 12th Night or whenever the tree is thrown out
23:28 Zoffix stmuk_, I call this the "Executive Syndrome". My bosses/sales reps always want $foo in the visible place (often on the home page). Eventually, the end result is a ridiculously overcrowded home page that's pretty useless as clicks on it confirm :)
23:28 Zoffix stmuk_, I think that's a good idea; to do on 15th or so. Today's is first working Monday since release. To many the advent would be new
23:28 stmuk_ yes that's true
23:29 Zoffix Not to mention it has a lot of info not covered by docs
23:29 stmuk_ I did wonder why http://perl6.org/compilers/std-viv is linked when its not developed anymore
23:31 dalek perl6.org: ca98af0 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | source/downloads/index.html:
23:31 dalek perl6.org: Mention modules.perl6.org/panda on the /download page
23:31 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/p​erl6.org/commit/ca98af012f
23:32 stmuk_ ah good idea
23:40 yurivish_ joined #perl6
23:44 timotimo Zoffix: did you read last week's weekly and assumed it was this week's?
23:45 Zoffix timotimo, yes, I in fact have!
23:45 Zoffix I guess I never read it in the past
23:45 Zoffix timotimo, that's awesome then. In 5 days we got 15 modules
23:46 timotimo :)
23:46 * timotimo didn't really backlog
23:47 timotimo and during most of the day i forgot that today is weekly-day
23:54 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 6160a19 | coke++ | log/ (8 files):
23:54 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
23:54 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/6160a1912a
23:54 AlexDaniel “Smartmatch with S/// can never succeed because the subsequent string match will fail”
23:55 AlexDaniel ok, now I stumbled upon it too
23:55 AlexDaniel m: say ‘foo’ ~~ S/o/u/
23:55 camelia rakudo-moar 49fcd5: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤    Smartmatch with S/// can never succeed because the subsequent string match will fail␤    at /tmp/MaoITPf90o:1␤    ------> 3say ‘foo’ ~~ 7⏏5S/o/u/␤False␤»
23:56 llfourn joined #perl6
23:56 timotimo yeah, that's not how you do it :)
23:56 AlexDaniel timotimo: what's the point of S/// then?
23:56 RabidGravy right that's me done
23:57 RabidGravy have fun
23:57 timotimo you set $_ and then have something like my $new = S/.../.../
23:57 skids joined #perl6
23:58 AlexDaniel m: say S/o/u/ given ‘foo’
23:58 camelia rakudo-moar 49fcd5: OUTPUT«fuo␤»
23:58 zwu joined #perl6
23:59 zwu just forgot what  '\' mean in the code my ($c) := \(gather for 1..2 {         take $_, $_ * 10;     });

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