Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2016-02-03

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 AlexDaniel gfldex: Inf, but in this case the list is not infinite
00:00 gfldex it's not a list, it's a Range
00:01 AlexDaniel right, it's an Array
00:01 AlexDaniel m: my @a = <a b c d>; say WHAT @a
00:01 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(Array)␤»
00:01 gfldex that's not what I mean
00:02 tony-o_ the range you're using to select elems with is an Inf range
00:02 gfldex the array subscript [0..^*] will produce some Iterator that will iterate between 0 and Inf-1
00:02 gfldex the Iterator only looks at the lower and upper bound that is Range
00:02 AlexDaniel m: say 0..^∞
00:02 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«0..^Inf␤»
00:02 AlexDaniel m: say 0..∞
00:02 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«0..Inf␤»
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00:04 AlexDaniel gfldex: so you are saying that the index of last element is still < Inf-1 so that's why it is included?
00:04 gfldex yes
00:04 [Coke] perlpilot: S17-supply/syntax.t has been problematic since pre-xmas.
00:04 AlexDaniel kinda makes sense, but it doesn't dwim. If I wrote ^ there then perhaps I did that on purpose
00:06 Hotkeys what does the 'global' command for rakudobrew do
00:06 AlexDaniel gfldex: but I'm not going to insist that it should work :)
00:07 AlexDaniel well, it does work. I mean that I'm not going to insist that it should work the way I want it to work :D
00:08 AlexDaniel ooooooooooooooooooh
00:08 AlexDaniel I think that I found something…
00:08 Hotkeys Doesn't 0..^Inf essentially == 0..Inf
00:08 Hotkeys it does in my head
00:09 AlexDaniel m: my @a = ‘a’..‘e’; say [@a[[0..$_],[$_^..*]] for ^(@a - 1)]
00:09 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«[((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e))]␤»
00:09 AlexDaniel this is significantly shorter
00:09 ely-se Hotkeys: yes they should represent the same range
00:10 AlexDaniel m: my @a = ‘a’..‘e’; say (@a[(0..$_),($_^..*)] for ^(@a - 1))
00:10 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e)))␤»
00:13 perlawhirl m: my @name = 'obarb'.comb; ~@name.rotate.join
00:13 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for /tmp/vpFb6C651P:␤Useless use of "~" in expression "~@name.rotate.join" in sink context (line 1)␤»
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00:13 perlawhirl m: my @name = 'obarb'.comb; say @name.rotate.join
00:13 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«barbo␤»
00:13 gfldex where in the docs do we doc List/Array subscripts?
00:13 perlawhirl almost :D
00:13 AlexDaniel m: my @a = ‘a’..‘e’; say [@a[^$_,$_..*] for 1..^@a]
00:13 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«[((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e))]␤»
00:14 perlawhirl gfldex: http://doc.perl6.org/language/list
00:14 AlexDaniel avuserow: ↑ this is probably the shortest one
00:16 AlexDaniel m: my @a = ‘a’..‘e’; say (@a[^$_,$_..*] for 1..^@a)
00:16 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e)))␤»
00:16 gfldex perlawhirl: that's where we _should_ doc Array slices :->
00:17 gfldex i will close those gaps tomorrow
00:18 AlexDaniel m: ‘obarb’.flip.say
00:18 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«brabo␤»
00:19 brabo AlexDaniel: hm?
00:19 AlexDaniel nvm :)
00:20 brabo tsk tsk
00:20 brabo waking up random people at this time of day :p
00:20 sortiz m: say Inf - 1 == Inf, Inf + 1 == Inf # By definition
00:20 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«TrueTrue␤»
00:21 brabo lizmat: ping! how was fosdem?
00:22 brabo also hm, did i hear something about perl 6 release a while ago?
00:22 brabo can it truly be? :)
00:23 Hotkeys it's up to spec as of 2015.12
00:23 Hotkeys unless you mean the 2016.01 release
00:23 brabo AlexDaniel: j/k btw, it is actually nice someone reminded me i was here ;)
00:23 brabo Hotkeys: ye it will be the release i heard about
00:24 brabo something about larry's bday or so?
00:24 brabo i guess congrats are in order.. if i understood it correctly it has been a long time coming :)
00:27 [Coke] brabo: _the_ release was on hristmas day.
00:28 brabo aha okay
00:28 brabo ye
00:29 brabo those weeks were a bit dazed and confused at my end ^^
00:31 Hotkeys m: say ('a'..'f').rotor(2=>-1)
00:31 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«((a b) (b c) (c d) (d e) (e f))␤»
00:31 Hotkeys this is fun
00:31 Hotkeys m: say ('a'..'f').rotor(3=>-2)
00:31 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«((a b c) (b c d) (c d e) (d e f))␤»
00:32 AlexDaniel ooh, maybe it could be solved with rotor
00:32 Hotkeys that's what I was trying to do
00:32 Hotkeys I think it'd be longer than your solution up there
00:33 AlexDaniel m: my @a = ‘a’..‘e’; say (@a.rotor($_, Inf, :partial) for 1..^+@a)
00:33 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e)))␤»
00:34 AlexDaniel m: my @a = ‘a’..‘e’; say (@a[^$_,$_..*] for 1..^@a)
00:34 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e)))␤»
00:34 Hotkeys well you're much smarter than I
00:34 AlexDaniel Hotkeys: it's not too bad
00:34 AlexDaniel let's see if we can golf it down…
00:35 AlexDaniel avuserow: ↑
00:35 AlexDaniel Hotkeys: oh, maybe it could be done with rotor but without for loop…
00:36 Hotkeys does this count as golfing
00:36 AlexDaniel yes
00:36 Hotkeys m: my @a = ‘a’..‘e’; say (@a.rotor($_, ∞, :partial) for 1..^+@a)
00:36 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e)))␤»
00:36 Hotkeys :p
00:36 AlexDaniel yes :)
00:38 Hotkeys just barely shorter
00:38 Hotkeys m: my @a = ‘a’..‘e’; (1..^+@a).map({@a.rotor($_, ∞, :partial)})
00:38 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: ( no output )
00:38 Hotkeys oh
00:38 Hotkeys forgot the say
00:38 Hotkeys stupid repl
00:38 Hotkeys m: my @a = ‘a’..‘e’; (1..^+@a).map({@a.rotor($_, ∞, :partial)}).say
00:38 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e)))␤»
00:38 AlexDaniel it's not shorter this way? :)
00:38 Hotkeys not with say
00:38 Hotkeys couple characters longer
00:39 Hotkeys I guess if we're golfing we can remove spaces though
00:39 Hotkeys m: my @a=‘a’..‘e’;(1..^+@a).map({@​a.rotor($_,∞,:partial)}).say
00:39 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e)))␤»
00:39 AlexDaniel I'm confident that you can just make it with rotor alone
00:39 AlexDaniel one second
00:39 Hotkeys maybe
00:41 AlexDaniel Hotkeys: I'll show you what I mean
00:41 AlexDaniel m: my @a = ‘a’..‘e’; say @a.rotor(1, 4 => -5, 2, 3 => -5, 3, 2)
00:41 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«((a) (b c d e) (a b) (c d e) (a b c) (d e))␤»
00:41 AlexDaniel now all you have to do is just generate these params
00:42 Hotkeys oh
00:42 Hotkeys I was thinking you wanted them grouped together like you had
00:42 AlexDaniel Hotkeys: yes but that can be done later, I think…
00:42 revhippie like a sequence of splices
00:42 Hotkeys sure
00:43 AlexDaniel Hotkeys: with another rotor!
00:43 AlexDaniel m: my @a = ‘a’..‘e’; say @a.rotor(1, 4 => -5, 2, 3 => -5, 3, 2).rotor(2)
00:43 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)))␤»
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00:46 AlexDaniel how do I pass an array as arguments?
00:48 Hotkeys how do you mean?
00:48 AlexDaniel rotor(@args)
00:49 AlexDaniel ?
00:49 Hotkeys you slap a | on it
00:49 Hotkeys iirc
00:50 Hotkeys rotor(|@args)
00:50 AlexDaniel right
00:52 AlexDaniel m: my @a = ‘a’..‘e’; say @a.rotor(flat ($_, 5-$_ => -5 for 1..^5)).rotor: 2
00:52 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e)) ((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e)) ((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e)) ((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e))…»
00:52 AlexDaniel m: my @a = ‘a’..‘e’; say @a.rotor(flat ($_, @a-$_ => -@a for 1..^+@a)).rotor: 2
00:52 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e)) ((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e)) ((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e)) ((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e))…»
00:52 AlexDaniel how do I limit it?
00:53 AlexDaniel OK
00:53 AlexDaniel m: my @a = ‘a’..‘e’; say @a.rotor(|($_, @a-$_ => -@a for 1..^+@a), ∞).rotor: 2
00:53 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e)))␤»
00:53 AlexDaniel there we go!
00:54 AlexDaniel avuserow: ↑
00:55 AlexDaniel Hotkeys: you can actually omit + in ^+@a
00:55 Hotkeys ah
00:56 AlexDaniel m: my @a = ‘a’..‘e’; say (@a.rotor($_, ∞, :partial) for 1..^@a)
00:56 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e)))␤»
00:57 AlexDaniel Hotkeys: now the question is how to get rid of 「for」 and do the same thing with Z
01:03 AlexDaniel m: my @a = ‘a’..‘e’; say @a.rotor(|(1..^@a Z ((+@a-1 … 1) Z=> (-@a, -@a … *))), ∞).rotor: 2
01:03 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e)))␤»
01:03 AlexDaniel Hotkeys: easy!
01:03 AlexDaniel well, I'm sure that there is an easier way…
01:03 AlexDaniel like, one of the hundred of other suggested alternatives :)
01:05 AlexDaniel Hotkeys: thanks for mentioning rotor, I didn't even think about it
01:10 AlexDaniel Hotkeys: we can also do it without :partial
01:10 AlexDaniel m: my @a = ‘a’..‘e’; say (@a.rotor: $_, @a-$_ for 1..^@a).rotor: 2
01:10 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«((((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e))) (((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e))))␤»
01:10 AlexDaniel Hotkeys: saves a character or two
01:11 AlexDaniel anyway, enough of this golfing spam :)
01:11 Hotkeys lol
01:14 Hotkeys shortened it a bit a think
01:14 Hotkeys the non-for one
01:14 Hotkeys m: my @a = ‘a’..‘e’; say @a.rotor(|(1..^@a Z (@a-1...0) »=>» -@a), ∞).rotor: 2
01:14 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e)))␤»
01:15 Hotkeys AlexDaniel:
01:15 AlexDaniel oh, how interesting
01:15 Hotkeys m: my @a = ‘a’..‘e’; say @a.rotor(|(1..^@a Z (@a-1…0) »=>» -@a), ∞).rotor: 2
01:15 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(((a) (b c d e)) ((a b) (c d e)) ((a b c) (d e)) ((a b c d) (e)))␤»
01:15 Hotkeys there got that sequence char in there
01:15 AlexDaniel not too bad
01:16 AlexDaniel okay I think that I have to make a gist with all the solutions
01:16 Hotkeys lol
01:16 Hotkeys what is this for anyway
01:16 AlexDaniel Hotkeys: someone asked a question
01:16 Hotkeys ah
01:16 AlexDaniel and we answered it… a couple of times :)
01:16 Hotkeys I must've missed it
01:19 perlawhirl haha, yes... i assume whatever reason avuserow needed it for has passed.
01:19 perlawhirl but it's a fun problem to try to solve many ways with perl6
01:20 AlexDaniel yeah, I enjoyed that
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01:55 Hotkeys I do stackexchange codegolf
01:55 Hotkeys sometimes
01:55 Hotkeys with perl 6
01:55 Hotkeys I meant to say that all in one line whoops
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02:14 cuonglm Anyone has faced problem with building rakudo from latest master
02:15 cuonglm I got "Stage mast       : No registered operation handler for 'stat_time'"
02:18 japhb cuonglm: master?  not nom?
02:19 japhb Or are you talking about MoarVM's branch?
02:20 japhb (Normally you let Rakudo's configure choose the proper commit to build NQP, which then chooses the proper MoarVM commit.)
02:20 cuonglm japhb: it's master
02:20 cuonglm I simply cd to rakudo source
02:21 cuonglm git pull
02:21 cuonglm perl Configure.pl --gen-moar --gen-nqp --backends=moar --prefix=/usr/local/stow/perl6
02:21 cuonglm make
02:21 cuonglm then it failed in mast stage
02:22 cuonglm You can see full error here http://paste.debian.net/378252/
02:23 japhb cuonglm: What does `git describe --all` output?
02:25 cuonglm Opps, it output "heads/nom"
02:26 japhb That's actually a good thing.  I was worried you'd at some point in the past manually put yourself on master.  :-)
02:26 japhb I remember something about stat_time being undone on the Moar side, but I thought that had been fixed.  Don't remember the details,
02:26 japhb but you could check the MoarVM commit log for the last couple weeks
02:26 * japhb must run
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02:29 skids counglm: try removing moar and nqp binaries from the install path maybe?
02:32 cuonglm skids: I'm trying, it seems to work
02:33 cuonglm it gets latest moar and nqp then building them again
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02:39 cuonglm Thanks all, work perfect now
02:40 skids np enjoy :-)
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03:12 AlexDaniel ok, there we go: https://gist.github.com/Alex​Daniel/1e2d1c50963d37c5d43a
03:12 AlexDaniel Hotkeys: ↑
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03:12 AlexDaniel I've attempted to make them all as short as possible, but there are probably some ways to golfify some of those
03:13 AlexDaniel and yeah, I did not remove the spaces around operators. I think that it's more fair this way
03:13 AlexDaniel (i.e. you're not going to use obfuscated code)
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03:37 Snowdog Is anyone here?
03:38 colomon yes?
03:38 Snowdog I noticed that today, a new version of Perl6 came out.
03:38 colomon right
03:38 colomon usually monthly release
03:39 colomon …. errr, though it’s not the usual date for it, now that I think about it.
03:39 * colomon has been a bit out of the loop
03:39 Snowdog However, when I build it with Rakudobrew, it sets it up as a separate installation from the 2015-12 version, and now all my libraries have to be reinstalled.
03:39 Snowdog That's not really a viable option. Is there any way I can report this?
03:40 colomon Snowdog: https://github.com/tadzik/rakudobrew/issues
03:40 Snowdog An upgrade shouldn't require a new installation.
03:40 Snowdog Thanks.
03:41 colomon I’m not quite sure what you did?  what command did you use to build it?
03:41 Snowdog I think everyone is still in testing mode, but if the software is going to be used, then it has to be trusted.
03:41 Snowdog I can build the new installation in2 ways:
03:41 jdv79 isn't that how perlbrew works?  perl and libs are seperated on perl ver?
03:41 Snowdog 1) rakudobrew build moar or rakudobrew build moar 2016.01.1
03:42 revhippie i think that's kind of the point, yeah
03:42 Snowdog As instructed on the perl6 page: www.perl6.org
03:42 colomon if you built rakudobrew build moar before and rakudobrew build moar again today, the libraries should get reinstalled automatically.
03:42 jdv79 its not an "upgrade".  its a new install.
03:42 Snowdog Unfortunately, no.
03:42 Snowdog Right, it's a new install.
03:43 Snowdog Will 2015-12 ever be upgraded?
03:43 Snowdog My only point is that it can't be used in a production environment if I have to reinstall and test all the libraries each time it upgrades.
03:44 Snowdog That's all. I'll report it.
03:44 jdv79 that's how perlbrew and rakudobrew work though.
03:44 colomon it would be handy to have a way of bundling the standardl libraries you install.  I’m not sure that should be rakudobrew’s responsbility.
03:44 Snowdog Really? Each new build requires a total reconfiguration?
03:44 colomon Snowdog: each new installation does
03:45 jdv79 perhaps in the future it'll be made more smooth
03:45 colomon the whole point is to let you easily switch between different installs of rakudo.
03:45 Snowdog OK, thanks. That's just frustrating. I know it's a new language, but I thought it was ready for release.
03:45 jdv79 that sort of stuff is very immature at the moment.  it can only get better over time.
03:45 geekosaur while there has been an official release, things are still changing fairly rapidly
03:46 geekosaur especially in the area of packaging/distribution
03:46 Snowdog I think it's a cool language. I'm looking forward to using it.
03:46 jdv79 :(  its "ready";  not battle tested.  sorry.
03:46 colomon but I wouldn’t expect rakudobrew to change in the way Snowdog wants?  isn’t the current behavior a feature, not a bug?
03:48 colomon maybe there should be a “release” tag (or something like that) for rakudobrew which treats the latest releases over time as a single install?
03:48 jdv79 perhaps a feature could be added to "mirror/port/re-install" one perl6's libs to another but its working as expected right now afaik
03:48 Snowdog Aye!
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03:50 xtreak Hi I am a perl newbie. I was learning grammars. They seem very powerful. I was trying to use it to parse my toy language.
03:51 AlexDaniel xtreak: welcome!
03:51 xtreak How can I use it throw errors when there is an unescaped quote in the string like 'hello' i am good'
03:52 xtreak Is it possible or am I doing it wrong. Sorry if its too naive.
03:54 jdv79 no idea.  maybe look at the Perl6 grammar itself or wait til someone who knows wakes up to see your question and if nobody answers in a few hours ask again.
03:55 xtreak Thanks thats a gud idea. Is the perl6 parser written in Perl6 or Perl5? I don't have much experience on C.
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03:57 skids xtreak: The parser is in Perl 6
03:57 ZoffixWin .tell [Coke] The announcement is great news, but it really should include a download link :/ RE: http://blogs.perl.org/users/coke/2016/02/rak​udo-perl-6-compiler---2016011-released.html
03:57 yoleaux ZoffixWin: I'll pass your message to [Coke].
03:58 ZoffixWin Or how to get it...
03:59 jdv79 xtreak: iirc the parser is probably src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp
03:59 jdv79 also see Actions.nqp
04:00 jdv79 nqp is just a Perl6 subset (Not Quite Perl)
04:00 xtreak Sure thanks. I hope it does have instructions to compile it again so that I can change and see the effects.
04:00 ZoffixWin At the risk of sounding like a grumpy old man.. I have no clue at all how to get the freshly released Rakudo. I see no tag in the repo and http://rakudo.org/ only has leads to 2015.11 R*
04:01 jdv79 xtreak: docs aren't great yet.  best to try something and just ask in here when it doesn't work out.
04:01 ZoffixWin And I hang out here and use Perl 6 and have contributed to the Ecosystem... What would a new person make out of this?
04:02 jdv79 ZoffixWin: still keepin it real.  nice.
04:02 jdv79 perhaps a pr person wouldn't be a bad idea.  what does the tpf do again?
04:02 jdv79 :)
04:08 perlawhirl AlexDaniel: just saw you gist... nice work
04:08 AlexDaniel :)
04:10 Hotkeys ++
04:11 AlexDaniel actually, I really liked the last one
04:11 AlexDaniel I haven't seen [\+] thing earlier
04:11 Hotkeys ZoffixWin: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/releases
04:11 Hotkeys they're there
04:11 AlexDaniel how is it called? What does it do exactly?
04:13 xtreak I think [\+] prints the intermediate results in the reduction process
04:13 Hotkeys m: [\+] 1..10
04:13 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: ( no output )
04:13 Hotkeys m: say [\+] 1..10
04:13 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(1 3 6 10 15 21 28 36 45 55)␤»
04:13 Hotkeys seems like you're right xtreak
04:14 Hotkeys or rather not print but
04:14 Hotkeys creates a list of all the intermediary results
04:14 xtreak Yes :)
04:15 xtreak I think most of the reduction operators can be made like this by having a \ prefixed to them
04:15 Hotkeys "By default reduction meta operators are eager. To lazily generate values, prefix the operator with a \. If the non-meta part contains a \ already, quote it with [] (e.g. [\[\x]])."
04:16 Hotkeys m: my $lazy := [\+] 1..*; say $lazy[^10]
04:16 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(1 3 6 10 15 21 28 36 45 55)␤»
04:16 Hotkeys m: my $lazy := [\+] 1..*; say $lazy[^20]
04:16 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(1 3 6 10 15 21 28 36 45 55 66 78 91 105 120 136 153 171 190 210)␤»
04:16 Hotkeys pretty neat
04:16 xtreak http://friedo.com/blog/2016/01/​exploring-perl-6-meta-operators
04:18 xtreak p6: my $lazy := [\[\+]] 1..*; say $lazy[^20]
04:18 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤------> 3my $lazy := [\[\+]]7⏏5 1..*; say $lazy[^20]␤    expecting any of:␤        infix␤        infix stopper␤        postfix␤        statemen…»
04:19 xtreak Any example of how to use the operations that already contain a / at the beginning?
04:20 xtreak Sorry \
04:21 ZoffixWin Hotkeys, thanks. Do I still get to grumble about the release process or did I use up all of my allocated points for today?
04:22 ZoffixWin jdv79, not sure whether that was sarcasm, but being more organized about the release process and at least faking excitement about new releases would help Perl 6's adoption greatly IMO.
04:25 jdv79 no sarcasm here.  couldn't the tpf or someone else do that for us?
04:26 ZoffixWin Do we have anyone from TPF in the channel? If not, I think they're too far away to do this job efficiently.
04:26 AlexDaniel .tell avuserow https://gist.github.com/Alex​Daniel/1e2d1c50963d37c5d43a
04:26 yoleaux AlexDaniel: I'll pass your message to avuserow.
04:26 jdv79 idk
04:27 ZoffixWin TBH, I'm more picturing a documented release process that will include all the stuff that needs to be done: include download links, post on blogs.perl.org, Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, HackerNews, other popular sites. Include a detailed-enough changelog to make it easier for a handful of bloggers to do a quick write up and spread the news.
04:28 jdv79 we don't have that?  what do they do now for a release?
04:28 * ZoffixWin is unsure.
04:29 jdv79 i know there's a script or scripts somwehere that are followed
04:29 jdv79 at least one of moritz or [Coke] or FROGGS[mobile] knows about that
04:30 ZoffixWin My feedback is only that this looks more like something I'd email my boss when he asked me what I've been doing for the last month: http://blogs.perl.org/users/coke/2016/02/rak​udo-perl-6-compiler---2016011-released.html
04:30 ZoffixWin Anyway. Night all :)
04:31 jdv79 peace
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04:32 jdv79 neat that [Coke] mentioned the nyc meeting
04:33 revhippie it just occurred to me that in that gist from earlier ( https://gist.github.com/Alex​Daniel/1e2d1c50963d37c5d43a ) that 'for' in several of them is part of the expression within the 'say'
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04:41 MadcapJake Great news everyone! https://github.com/github/linguist/pull/2832
04:44 skids Oh yay!
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05:09 timotimo MadcapJake: while great in theory, now the real work begins. waiting for the PR to get merged. likely takes about 1-2 years
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05:11 MadcapJake hahaha
05:13 timotimo seriously, though
05:13 MadcapJake timotimo: http://issuestats.com/github/github/linguist
05:13 timotimo the last time we tried to get better perl6 highlighting ...
05:13 MadcapJake oh in language-perl ?
05:14 timotimo i don't think so
05:14 MadcapJake Yeah when I started language-perl6fe, I knew there was one in language-perl, but I didn't want to be hindered by waiting for PRs to merge xD
05:14 timotimo https://github.com/github/linguist/pull/900
05:15 MadcapJake woah
05:15 timotimo https://github.com/github/linguist/pull/750 - not as bad
05:16 timotimo so yeah. we've been burned in the past
05:17 timotimo i have no intent on saying "i'm sure they'll merge it today!" for the rest of my life. OP will surely deliver, and all that.
05:17 MadcapJake wow, well the nice part of the PR I ref'd, it's just highlighting, only adds a submodule and a few reference changes to the selectors that I use
05:17 timotimo "only adds a submodule" sounds pretty fucking bad :)
05:17 MadcapJake lol
05:18 MadcapJake well that appears to be there modus operandi for language support
05:18 timotimo what, wait for a few years to see if it's worth it to click the "merge PR" button?
05:19 MadcapJake no submodules :P
05:19 MadcapJake https://github.com/github/lingu​ist/tree/master/vendor/grammars
05:20 MadcapJake speaking of...
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05:22 MadcapJake had to make sure they merge the latest 1.5.0 highlighter (which I pushed after he made his PR). Oh lovely submodules!
05:24 MadcapJake timotimo: just figured out that Slack snippets uses CodeMirror for highlighting, gonna take a crack at writing a Perl 6 "mode"
05:24 timotimo i saw that, yeah :)
05:25 timotimo we don't have a codemirror mode yet?
05:25 MadcapJake not in the main project, i believe
05:26 MadcapJake looks like azawawi has one
05:26 timotimo nice
05:26 MadcapJake oops, dead link
05:26 timotimo uh oh :(
05:27 MadcapJake found it!
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05:28 MadcapJake https://github.com/azawawi/farabi6/blob/​1d017f1ff4b7c3b2f7ef1b5ff90b7ab197a6f773​/lib/Farabi6/files/assets/perl6-mode.js
05:28 timotimo oh, of course! farabi!
05:28 MadcapJake oops, why does github sometimes bring you to a commit instead of master?
05:28 timotimo good question
05:29 MadcapJake only happens if you click a filename in search
05:29 timotimo ah, that could be
05:35 MadcapJake is there an estabalished mime type for perl6? «text/x-perl6» ?
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05:38 MadcapJake i'm just gonna assume that's it, only other possibility i could see is «text/x-perl-6»
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05:42 timotimo i'd be for "this is perl6 program code"
05:42 timotimo actually, make that a space between perl and 6, and make it a " "
05:43 MadcapJake mime types can have spaces?
05:44 timotimo no
05:45 * timotimo bbl
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05:49 MadcapJake timotimo: haha it was just merged, it will go live later this week https://github.com/github/linguist/pull/2832
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06:08 sammers p6: use JSON::Tiny; my %h = a => '1', c => '3', b => '2'; to-json(%h).say; to-json(%h.sort).say;
06:08 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find JSON::Tiny in:␤    /home/camelia/.perl6/2015.12-232-ga5fe347␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/site␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/vendor␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6␤    C…»
06:08 sammers hmm
06:08 sammers having an issue with this. after I sort a hash JSON::* is nesting the sorted hash inside a new [];
06:09 sammers like this, pre-sort: { "a" : "1", "c" : "3", "b" : "2" }
06:09 sammers after sort: [ { "a" : "1" }, { "b" : "2" }, { "c" : "3" } ]
06:10 sammers it is also grouping each pair into its own object
06:12 sammers p6: my %h = a => '1', c => '3', b => '2'; %h.say; %h.sort.say;
06:12 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«a => 1, b => 2, c => 3␤(a => 1 b => 2 c => 3)␤»
06:12 sammers hmm
06:16 _Gustaf_ o/
06:16 sammers p6: my %h = a => '1', c => '3', b => '2'; %h.say; %h.sort.hash.say;
06:16 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«a => 1, b => 2, c => 3␤a => 1, b => 2, c => 3␤»
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07:23 stmuk_ hmmm I think we should stop promoting rakudobrew as a way of n00bz getting rakudo once R* is out
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08:09 timotimo maybe
08:09 timotimo especially since we practically dragged it kicking and screaming into the spotlight to begin with :)
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08:17 stmuk_ true
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08:22 timotimo we probably ought to update perl6.org's top-of-the-page thingie with the latest release, too
08:24 stmuk_ I wondered about that but it might be less confusing for outsiders to just put the R* accouncement there
08:26 stmuk_ only R* announcements went on http://rakudo.org/
08:26 stmuk_ its all very confusing
08:27 moritz right, let's wait for R*
08:27 moritz or, don't wait, advance it
08:27 moritz everybody can help! Write a release announcement!
08:27 stmuk_ I even wonder if one of either rakudo or star releases should go now we are in release phase .. monthly seems more dev than stable
08:28 moritz the star releases weren't meant to be monthly anyway
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08:30 stmuk_ perl5 itself has yearly stable releases
08:31 moritz I don't think we're that mature yet
08:31 stmuk_ I can start on star's ://rakudo.org/
08:31 stmuk_ [08:26] < stmuk_> its all very confusing
08:31 stmuk_ oops
08:31 stmuk_ sure maybe 3 monthly releases of something at this stage
08:32 stmuk_ I mean to type I can start on R*'s docs/announce/2016.01.md shortly if it helps
08:33 timotimo that sounds fantastic, actually
08:34 timotimo man, the track records for "lying in bed, suddenly an optimization opportunity pops into my head" is really bad by now ... just measured how many slots in NFA's state arrays end up "wasted" after the NFA optimizer is done with it, and it's basically nothing
08:35 timotimo (because our VMArrays don't shrink their storage when they get smaller)
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09:12 RabidGravy boom
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09:15 RabidGravy ls
09:17 moritz no such file or directory
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09:27 sjn no: command not found
09:27 DrForr Just a note - I got an idea on the way home from Brussels last night about how to properly do Haskell Lenses in Perl 6.
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09:30 [Tux] test            22.819
09:30 [Tux] test-t          12.251
09:30 [Tux] csv-parser      51.941
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09:36 RabidGravy DrForr, I may have to re-read that later, it didn't make sense to me prior to coffee
09:38 DrForr Well, it's something like action-at-a-distance which means some people won't like it, and that's fine. The writeup isn't all that great and was done just before I ran out the door, which may explain partially why it was so hard to read.
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09:41 bioexpress p6: my Int $c = 2 == 2; say $c.WHAT;
09:41 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(Bool)␤»
09:41 rindolf So I have not received a message from perl6-users@perl.org since 2014 and now emailing perl6-users-subscribe@perl.org did not give me a reply.
09:41 bioexpress 'p6: my Int $c = 2 == 2; say $c.WHAT;'
09:42 moritz p6: my Int $c = 2 == 2; say $c.WHAT
09:42 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(Bool)␤»
09:42 bioexpress Why do I not get an error-message with this code?
09:43 moritz m: say Bool ~~ Int
09:43 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«True␤»
09:43 moritz that's why
09:43 bioexpress Thx!
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09:55 ab6tract .seen hoelzro
09:55 yoleaux I saw hoelzro 1 Feb 2016 16:24Z in #perl6: <hoelzro> Skarsnik: it's definitely weird; I wouldn't be against a warning
09:58 brrt fwiw, my 2c about the perl6-slack-channel thing
09:58 RabidGravy ab6tract, did you see https://github.com/jonathanstowe/Tin​ky/blob/master/examples/encode-files ?  You inspired me :)
09:59 RabidGravy this is almost the use case I had for Tinky in the first place
09:59 brrt folks are obviously perfectly free to make a slack channel for perl6 :-)
09:59 RabidGravy (or one of them)
09:59 brrt however, i can see it become problematic when e.g. the slack channel becomes the primary channel for newcomers, and none of the core / ecosystem developers of perl6 are there
10:00 brrt that would be irresponsible to those newcomers
10:00 RabidGravy well considering there are 344 people on the channel atm it's still quite manageable
10:01 brrt the slack channel?
10:01 RabidGravy this
10:01 brrt right :-)
10:02 DrForr I assume you're not referring to the SubGenius definition, though the app may have been inspired by "Bob"?
10:03 DrForr (I.E. no idea what the app/website is, and am curious.)
10:04 ab6tract RabidGravy: nice!
10:04 ab6tract i'll give it a try later, maybe it will actually work on OS X this time :)
10:05 ab6tract Slack-- -- -- --
10:05 ab6tract the job is transitioning to that crap, terrible
10:05 RabidGravy I can't make any guarantees about that but I was throwing whole directories of wav files at it at once and it was happy with that
10:05 moritz at $work, we're evaluating hipchat right now, because Slack isn't available on premise (iirc)
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10:06 DrForr Ah, so it's another IRC wannabee.
10:08 moritz we're using Jabber right now
10:08 ab6tract moritz: ooc, what are the operational issues with jabber?
10:08 brrt DrForr: yes, slack is irc for non-nerds
10:09 timotimo brrt: i hang out on the slack channel, fwiw
10:09 moritz ab6tract: I'm not really sure. But history on the server doesn't seem to work too well
10:09 brrt that's something :-)
10:09 timotimo i am something! :)
10:09 vendethiel joined #perl6
10:09 brrt your hanging-out is something
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10:09 brrt jabber == xmpp right?
10:10 timotimo yes
10:10 ab6tract moritz: ah, i see. but with slack, there's a company that gets to keep those logs instead
10:10 ab6tract seems like a terrible tradeoff.
10:10 ab6tract not speaking to the decisions of your company, just venting about the situation at mine :)
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10:11 moritz ab6tract: we're evaluating hipchat (on premise), not slack
10:11 * zengargoyle really wishes xmpp wasn't so complicated and had taken off better
10:12 ab6tract oh right, sorry for projecting :)
10:12 ab6tract zengargoyle: at one point it had the largest market share of chat by far. Google Chat and Facebook were both using it
10:13 ab6tract i can't say much to the complexity, but it seems more likely to me that it died because it wasn't as easy to build a silo around, which is the future that the big players all want for the web
10:13 zengargoyle i was an early fan, setup an ejabberd server for work that has been rock solid for many years now.
10:13 RabidGravy I think they both still do, massively extended of course
10:14 zengargoyle but lack of easy clients was a bit of a pain.
10:14 moritz somehow $work seems to be unable to operate a Jabber server reliably
10:14 ab6tract zengargoyle: yeah, the whole libpurple stack feels quite crufty
10:15 moritz despite having several good Linux folks
10:15 moritz there's hardly a week without a full disconnect, and pidgin doens't seem to be able to auto-reconnect after that happens
10:19 DrForr Booking relies on Jabber, we rely on Skype here.
10:20 brrt that sucks
10:20 brrt (unreliable connections)
10:21 RabidGravy I worked at a very large financial institution where all the developers used IRC
10:24 timotimo libpurple is a really great Remote Procedure Call solution
10:25 timotimo though maybe that's not as true nowadays any more
10:27 * flussence is mostly happy running Prosody as an XMPP server; the majority of others I've tried are awful enterprise code
10:29 nine moritz: do you know which jabber server you use?
10:29 DrForr Ah, yet another social media stream to feed.
10:30 flussence (I say “mostly”, because its SSL module has too many layers and they're all hardcoded to use openssl)
10:30 leont Openssl is awful, but sadly so are the alternatives
10:31 flussence yep, though I do find gnutls's command line tools a hell of a lot more readable
10:32 leont From what I head, the API is full with fuck-ups (e.g. pointer to buffer arguments without an explicit length)
10:35 DrForr Huh. Their website only lets me create a new "team" or find one that I've already joined even though I've never used Slack before.
10:36 brrt DrForr: slack is not for folks like us
10:36 brrt whereby 'us' is defined as 'people who can manage irc'
10:36 DrForr Seemed to be another Campfire startup thing.
10:36 brrt :-)
10:36 brrt it is
10:37 brrt the difference is that campfire didn't have $x billion UNICORN tagged to it, and slack does
10:37 brrt also, 'going to kill e-mail'
10:37 brrt nothing will kill e-mail folks
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10:37 DrForr I was just trying to figure out how to find the Perl 6 community over there, and ... failed.
10:37 timotimo DrForr: you'll go via our "invitation page"
10:38 timotimo http://perl6.bestforever.com/
10:38 DrForr Ah.
10:38 timotimo it's Quite Different from IRC, yeah
10:40 DrForr First time a site's told me my usual password is 'weak'. Huh.
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10:49 DrForr Right, snoozefest over there at the moment apparently.
10:49 ab6tract RabidGravy: Tinky looks quite interesting. Thank you for the concrete example!
10:50 araujo joined #perl6
10:51 timotimo are you keeping up with camelia? 'cause camelia is keeping up with you!
10:53 araujo joined #perl6
10:53 DrForr Those who do not know of IRC are doomed to reinvent it poorly.
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10:55 DrForr Aah, figured it out. Mumble.
10:55 timotimo mumble is a good thing
10:56 timotimo wait what, you're usung "your usual password" on multiple sites? :)
10:56 DrForr Usual throwaway.
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11:07 dalek star: b59cefe | (Steve Mynott)++ | docs/announce/2016.01.md:
11:07 dalek star: import of Rakudo Star 2016.01 announce
11:07 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/b59cefe3bc
11:07 dalek star: e4666ae | (Steve Mynott)++ | README:
11:07 dalek star: doc that JVM doesn't actually work in main README
11:07 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/e4666ae8e1
11:07 stmuk_ moritz: that ^^^
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11:14 stmuk_ oops a broken link
11:15 timotimo do all "Perl 6" have the proper evil unicode " " in between? :)
11:16 stmuk_ https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/​blob/nom/docs/announce/2016.01.md as listed doesn't actually exist yet .. it may exist in the future depending on merges to nom
11:16 stmuk_ timotimo: patches welcome :)
11:16 timotimo i don't have anything nice to make the distinction visible :|
11:16 timotimo for the purpose of editing
11:20 dalek star: c7323cd | (Steve Mynott)++ | docs/announce/2016.01.md:
11:20 dalek star: fix link to exist now rather than maybe in the future
11:20 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/c7323cd519
11:23 dalek star: 78b4670 | (Steve Mynott)++ | docs/announce/2016.01.md:
11:23 dalek star: more than one perl tutorial included now
11:23 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/78b46702a6
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11:32 moritz stmuk_: thanks
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12:32 dalek star: 153abec | (Steve Mynott)++ | README:
12:32 dalek star: bump some more years
12:32 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/153abecb2a
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12:34 dalek star: 3db4a0d | (Steve Mynott)++ | README:
12:34 dalek star: Change 'is primary author' to 'was originally primary author'
12:34 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/3db4a0d191
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12:42 cognominal m: my %a = 'a'..'f'; %a = Nil; # "Assigning to any entire composite container empties the container" says S02
12:42 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«Odd number of elements found where hash initializer expected␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/Er2OxDzvSb line 1␤␤»
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12:43 cognominal is this a fossil or is this an unimplemented feature? I suppose it would have the merit to avoid to create an empty hash just to assign it.
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12:45 ab6tract cognominal: the error is in your first hash assignment
12:45 gfldex cognominal: i doubt that would be a merrit. Depending on how the memory layout of a hash is structured it can be way faster to free the whole thing and create a new empty hash.
12:45 ab6tract m: my %h = 'a'..'f' Z=> True; say %h; %h = Nil; say %h
12:45 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«a => True␤Odd number of elements found where hash initializer expected␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/LsKKFVbRR1 line 1␤␤»
12:46 ab6tract hmm, or not :)
12:46 jnthn m: my %h = 'a'..'f' Z=> True; say %h; %h = Empty; say %h
12:46 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«a => True␤␤»
12:47 jnthn Nil stopped meaning empty list a good while ago :)
12:47 cognominal so, that's a fossil
12:47 jnthn Yeah; should say Empty, though some may prefer %h = ()
12:49 cognominal may be someone competent should go over that section :  http://design.perl6.org/S02.html#Nil
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12:54 cognominal or should that be a  s:g/Nil/Empty/ ?
12:55 dalek ecosystem: da072fa | RabidGravy++ | META.list:
12:55 dalek ecosystem: Rename META.info for IO::Path::Mode
12:55 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/e​cosystem/commit/da072fa8c7
13:01 RabidGravy there, IO::Path::Mode now stringifies the mode to something like what ls -l does
13:02 moritz RabidGravy++
13:04 RabidGravy still not entirely sure about the "sticky bit" but hey how often do you see that in the wild
13:06 dalek star: cfe8e3b | (Steve Mynott)++ | README:
13:06 dalek star: more pointers to docs in README
13:06 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/cfe8e3baf2
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13:07 dalek star: c4259ad | (Steve Mynott)++ | README:
13:07 dalek star: fit better in 80 cols
13:07 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/c4259ad1fc
13:08 RabidGravy !fmt
13:08 dalek doc: e9483ab | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/list.pod:
13:08 dalek doc: doc Range as List/Array slice
13:08 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/e9483ab5d3
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13:11 hoelzro o/ #perl6
13:14 gfldex m: Empty.WHAT.say;
13:14 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(Slip)␤»
13:14 gfldex m: ().WHAT.say;
13:14 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(List)␤»
13:15 gfldex jnthn: ^^^
13:16 dalek star: 85c1046 | (Steve Mynott)++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
13:16 dalek star: bump STAR_VERSION
13:16 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/85c1046f21
13:16 dalek star: 8d3596c | (Steve Mynott)++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
13:16 dalek star: bump a (c) year
13:16 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/8d3596ca72
13:19 kaare__ joined #perl6
13:26 dalek star: edd8f41 | (Steve Mynott)++ | / (2 files):
13:26 dalek star: update versions in Makefile
13:26 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/edd8f415f9
13:29 dalek star: ba92e0b | (Steve Mynott)++ | LICENSE:
13:29 dalek star: yet another year bump
13:29 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/ba92e0b4ad
13:33 AlexDaniel joined #perl6
13:35 jnthn gfldex: Yes? :)
13:35 skingsbu joined #perl6
13:35 jnthn I didn't say Empty and () are the same thing, just that %h = Empty and %h = () have the same effect. :)
13:35 BenGoldberg m: (|()).WHAT.say;
13:35 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(Slip)␤»
13:35 gfldex Empty is not the empty list and I don't really understand what that means.
13:36 BenGoldberg m: ((|()) == Empty).say;
13:36 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«True␤»
13:36 llfourn_ m: say Slip ~~ List
13:36 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«True␤»
13:36 gfldex since the docs dont talk about Empty I feel the urge to improve my understanding.
13:36 jnthn Well, its main use is to let list comprehensions work out
13:36 moritz gfldex: Empty is just an empty Slip
13:36 moritz gfldex: and it's a constant, not a type
13:37 jnthn m: say ($_ * 2 if $_ > 3 for 1..10)
13:37 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«(8 10 12 14 16 18 20)␤»
13:37 jnthn If the `if` there didn't result in Empty, then we'd end up with lots of () in the result
13:37 jnthn Uh, that wasn't quite so well put
13:37 jnthn If the `if` there didn't resulted in (), then we'd end up with lots of () in the result.
13:37 jnthn crap!
13:38 jnthn What was in my salad... :)
13:38 jnthn Take 3:
13:38 BenGoldberg Too many negatives.
13:38 zengargoyle lol
13:38 DrForr Those weren't bac-o-bits :)
13:38 jnthn If the `if` evaluated to () when the condition was False, then the result would be (() () () 8 10 ...)
13:39 jnthn Because we don't magically make an empty List disappear
13:39 jnthn An empty Slip, on the other hand, will vanish
13:39 jnthn Empty is just a nice name for the empty slip
13:40 DrForr Cr*p, now I have 'Little Black Dress' by Tim Curry in my head.
13:40 jnthn :D
13:43 gfldex i can't wait for a german Perl 6 book. see: http://www.amazon.de/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?__mk_d​e_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&amp;url​=search-alias%3Daps&amp;field-keywords=slip
13:44 DrForr https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq3EU-jEwrg # Woops, Richard O'Brien.
13:44 moritz gfldex' link might be NSFW for some values of W
13:45 DrForr ^^ might be slightly beyond the pale as well, but I don't think *too* far.
13:51 hoelzro ab6tract: hey, I saw you were looking for me before; what's up?
13:54 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 114da64 | coke++ | log/ (2 files):
13:54 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
13:54 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/114da64d3b
13:54 dalek rakudo-star-daily: ac9e07d | coke++ | log/ (8 files):
13:54 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
13:54 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/ac9e07d53b
13:54 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 09082ec | coke++ | log/ (9 files):
13:54 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
13:54 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/09082ec738
13:54 RabidGravy can anyone think of a better way of doing this:
13:54 dalek perl6-roast-data: 968222c | coke++ | / (6 files):
13:54 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
13:54 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/968222c090
13:54 dalek perl6-roast-data: 1d2b867 | coke++ | / (6 files):
13:54 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
13:54 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/1d2b867dfd
13:54 RabidGravy m: class NoType {}; sub foo(Mu:U :$foo = NoType) { if $foo ~~ NoType { say "no foo" } else { say $foo }}; foo(); foo(foo => Int)
13:54 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«no foo␤(Int)␤»
13:54 vendethiel joined #perl6
14:02 perlpilot RabidGravy: nope.
14:04 ab6tract hoelzro: oh, just checking to see if you had a chance to test my proc async bug on freebsd
14:04 hoelzro ab6tract: I did, but I wasn't able to reproduce the issue =/
14:05 muraiki joined #perl6
14:07 ab6tract hoelzro: :( :( :(
14:08 ab6tract i usually love the experience of running OS X. but it's the odd duck in perl6 development
14:08 jnthn RabidGravy: Not other than taking the capture (|c) and looking at that
14:09 RabidGravy yeah, that's what I thought and ^ seems reasonably succinct
14:10 jnthn Yeah.
14:10 jnthn We do a similar trick in the QAST::Nodes fwiw :)
14:10 RabidGravy (somewhat of a hack to work round no private multis)
14:10 [Coke] .
14:10 yoleaux 03:57Z <ZoffixWin> [Coke]: The announcement is great news, but it really should include a download link :/ RE: http://blogs.perl.org/users/coke/2016/02/rak​udo-perl-6-compiler---2016011-released.html
14:10 [Coke] ZoffixWin: added a link to the page to the tarballs.
14:11 ab6tract what's the blocker on private multis, ooc?
14:11 [Coke] Hotkeys: don't ever use *release* from github. ew.
14:11 cdg joined #perl6
14:11 [Coke] ZoffixWin: you have many people who volunteer for the TPF in this group. what's up?
14:12 mr-foobar joined #perl6
14:12 [Coke] ZoffixWin: (documented release process) ... see docs/release*
14:13 jnthn ab6tract: Mostly just implementing them, though it'd need some MOP refactoring to do it cleanly (without code dupe)
14:13 jnthn ab6tract: I don't think there's any deep reason we can't have them.
14:16 ab6tract jnthn: ah, that's reassuring!
14:16 ab6tract it felt like one of those things that should be possible
14:17 stmuk_ moritz: I've just diff'd the result of the current star build and your RC0 of yesterday and can see no interesting differences
14:19 moritz stmuk_: should only be changes in README and then announcement etc.
14:19 stmuk_ moritz: yes and your perl6intro.pdf was out of date and the year changes I did this morning
14:21 stmuk_ nothing code related
14:23 vendethiel joined #perl6
14:23 hoelzro ab6tract: it would be nice if a macless person like me could just spin up an OS X VM to test things on it =/
14:24 stmuk_ hoelzro: I think that maybe possible .. not sure how legal or easy it is though
14:25 llfourn_ can travis do osx?
14:25 hoelzro stmuk_: yeah, I don't think it's legal; it also would rely on me having an OS X disk
14:25 geekosaur sometimes
14:26 stmuk_ https://docs.travis-ci.com​/user/osx-ci-environment/
14:26 llfourn_ if you google 'OSX vps' you will find a few things
14:27 stmuk_ I'm a little sceptical it works without problems .. linux even seems a tad flaky on travis
14:27 llfourn_ stmuk_: cool.
14:27 geekosaur never mind that. OS X is always flaky in a VM
14:28 ab6tract hoelzro: agreed. i wish they would just sell licenses to the damn thing
14:28 pmurias joined #perl6
14:29 ab6tract but then again, the apple hardware ecosystem is nice and tidy, which would go straight out the window
14:29 geekosaur apple is a hardware company
14:30 stmuk_ I could probably issue a OS X shell but not at the moment since the desktop is in another city and I would have to play SSH port forwarding tricks
14:30 ZoffixW joined #perl6
14:32 ZoffixW Here's a trick: "{" -> TAB -> '[Coke]'  guess how it works :)
14:32 pmurias are there Perl 6/NQP versions for the Programming Language Shootout/Computer Language Benchmark?
14:32 stmuk_ pmurias: I hope not :)
14:32 ZoffixW [Coke], well, the part of the release process I was grumbling about last night doesn't seem to be included in docs/release and I don't know if it should be the job of the release manager or someone who picks up the metaphorical torch.
14:33 ugexe travis works on osx
14:34 ugexe https://github.com/ugexe/zef​/blob/master/.travis.yml#L6
14:35 ugexe also if you want an osx vm there is macincloud.com
14:35 ugexe i use them as well. its just ok
14:36 pmurias stmuk_: why?
14:37 pmurias stmuk_: I found some in the perl6/perl6-examples repo
14:37 stmuk_ pmurias: I was partly joking
14:38 ZoffixW [Coke], step 16 (in https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/​blob/nom/docs/release_guide.pod) says Compiler releases are not to be announced to avoid confusion. Step 17 says to update wikipedia. And what I see—and I'm not criticizing anyone, but just making an observation—the compiler release was actually announced on blogs.perl.org, but without a download link. When asked in-channel, the link to GitHub release was given, but then I see commentary in the
14:38 ZoffixW backlog that it's not the right link. Wikipedia has been updated, but with the wrong year, so now it says release was "11 months ago". The guide also doesn't include any channels where developers would hear about the release (HN, Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, other social networks and blogs). And speaking of blogs, there should be some content for 3rd party bloggers to blog about. Sure, it was just a bug fix release, but what bugs? I'm having trouble f
14:38 ZoffixW inding the Changelog. Were there any critical/security bugs fixed or were they all minor and I don't need to upgrade if I don't feel like it? Many people were complaining about NativeCall lib version warning and now it's gone, that'd be a nice mention.
14:38 ZoffixW Oops.. Sorry, didn't realize I typed that much.
14:39 gfldex ZoffixW: don't worry, we love your typing
14:39 ZoffixW I guess my main point is the release process should include steps to propagate the announcements to people outside of Perl community, in hopes of getting them interested in Perl 6.
14:40 stmuk_ ZoffixW: I think focusing on a few R* releases a year is the way to go
14:41 [Coke] ZoffixW: I personally wrote a blog post, mainly to mention the NY.pm event.
14:41 [Coke] in channel. You got the best answer the person awake had.
14:42 [Coke] the guide was written pre-christmas. some updates have to be made. suggest them.
14:42 * colomon is not sure how to comment on https://github.com/tadzik/rakudobrew/issues/81 without sounding like he’s totally dismissing the idea.
14:42 stmuk_ ugexe: are the os x results available on https://travis-ci.org/ugexe/zef ? I am failing to find them
14:42 [Coke] the release announcement said what was in it.
14:42 [Coke] it's in docs/announce/2016.01.md
14:42 * ZoffixW wasn't aware of docs/announce stuff
14:42 [Coke] and this is all for the compiler, not R*.
14:42 ugexe stmuk_: its the 2nd build job
14:42 [Coke] changelog is also in docs.
14:43 [Coke] ZoffixW: also, join the perl6-users mailing list.
14:43 stmuk_ colomon: outsiders should be using R* not rakudobrew
14:43 MadcapJake colomon: seemed an alright point until the last line...
14:43 stmuk_ ugexe: ty
14:44 [Coke] I'm sure we can start to add more notifications about the compiler release to other media; the original plan was to avoid confusing people, because we used to get, every. time. "but where's the bundled version?"
14:44 colomon stmuk_: outsiders use the p5 equivalent perlbrew all the time.
14:44 ZoffixW I don't see 2016.* in https://github.com/rakudo/ra​kudo/tree/nom/docs/announce
14:44 colomon MadcapJake: keeping one set of libraries for all your rakudobrew builds defeats one of the major purposes of rakudobrew.
14:44 ZoffixW Ah, ok, it's in the release branch/commit/tag: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/tree/f033f2bd​3a5e57d7e14f03f34c83782cf04aae1a/docs/announce
14:45 stmuk_ colomon: I think rakudobrew was intended as a quick hack for development which it does very well its not a release maintaining tool
14:45 MadcapJake colomon: but at least his point makes sense, it would be *nice* to have libraries separate from versioned releases,
14:46 skids joined #perl6
14:46 colomon MadcapJake: only if you envision all releases as being able to use the exact same version of a library.
14:46 ugexe but you'd only be able to keep the source
14:46 ZoffixW [Coke], fair enough, since it's compiler release and not R* a lot of my critique is unwarranted.
14:47 MadcapJake colomon: what if each module was stored with subdirs pertaining to each release?
14:47 pmurias colomon: re issue 81, points 1,2,3 are things that can be fixed while still recompiling all the libraries
14:48 ugexe sounds like what an external CompUnitRepository would do
14:48 colomon MadcapJake: how is that better than storing the module with each release?
14:48 [Coke] ZoffixW: we're waiting a merge back.
14:48 stmuk_ anyway I'm hoping R* 2016.01 is now quite close to being released
14:48 [Coke] sorry, "merge"
14:49 MadcapJake no need to reinstall, just a "rakudobrew update modules" command and it would copy prev release version over to new one and run tests again
14:49 [Coke] (since it's probably going to be a bunch of evil cherry picks.)
14:49 ugexe but then rakudobrew is package manager
14:50 MadcapJake ugexe: right, i agree, i'm just playing devil's advocate, the point is, it could be handled differently wherein modules are external
14:50 ugexe ::FileSystem are external
14:51 ugexe otherwise you need an external compunitrepository so that it can do things like install the tests
14:51 stmuk_ I think rakudobrew needs a maintainer anyway
14:51 Ben_Goldberg joined #perl6
14:51 ugexe CompUnitRepository::RakudobrewLib or something
14:53 skids Other than the panda building, I could see all the rakudobrew functionality being moved into the rakudo build system, personally.  (Not that I'm volunteering :-)
14:53 tadzik colomon: how about "you're right, rakudobrew is not meant for production environment"? :)
14:54 Ben_Goldberg joined #perl6
14:54 [Coke] note that a lot of the discussion about rakudobrew might be good in -toolchain
14:55 perlpilot tadzik: "But I thought Rakudo was production ready?!?"  :)
14:56 [Coke] Point people at the part of the christmas announcement where we said bear with us. :P
14:59 [Coke] "There is still plenty of work ahead for us to improve speed, portability, and stability. Do not expect the level of perfection that you see in established products. This is essentially a .0 release of a compiler. We do not claim an absence of bugs or instabilities. We do not claim the documentation is complete. We do not claim portability to many architectures. We do not claim that all downstream software w
14:59 [Coke] ill work correctly. Think of it as a first kernel release, and now we get to build and port various distributions based around that kernel.
14:59 [Coke] "
14:59 [Coke] TimToady++
15:00 Hor|zon joined #perl6
15:05 nine What is supposedly the issue with sharing a module installation between multiple rakudo versions?
15:06 nine colomon: ^^
15:07 ugexe installing/running the tests so you know it actually works on a rakudo version you didn't install it with is one thing
15:08 nine If a user wants to do that she is free to do so. But that doesn't necessitate forcing all users to do that.
15:08 ugexe right, an external compunitrepository
15:12 vendethiel joined #perl6
15:12 colomon I know I have had times where I kept an old rakudobrew build around so I could use it with modules that didn’t work with current rakudo.
15:13 colomon I guess I’m not arguing you shouldn’t be able to do that if you’d like.  But it seems like it would be a weird default for rakudobrew
15:14 colomon (I mean, all builds sharing one install of libraries is a weird default.)
15:14 nine 1. we now promise backwards compatibility. 2. if you need an older version, you'll be able to install just that
15:16 nine 3. installing a new version of a module does _not_ mean uninstalling the old version. Both will still be available!
15:17 ugexe theoretically it could get messy during build phases if any part of it is tied to the perl6 version
15:17 jnthn Also maybe worth mentioning that precomps of a module do not conflict between different compiler versions.
15:17 RabidGravy which latter does of course mean that you have to specify an version in the use if you require a specific version or later
15:18 jnthn (That is, you can move between compiler versions sharing the same installed set of modules without problems.)
15:18 RabidGravy which I don't have a problem with but it does catch me out
15:18 jnthn (Which wasn't true a copule of months back.)
15:19 nine The only reason rakudobrew installed modules per rakudo version is that perlbrew does it that way. The only reason perlbrew does it is because in Perl 5 modules may contain a C part (called XS) that's linked against the installed perl version and does only work with that.
15:21 ugexe i thought it was because thats just default behavior for installing a module, and local::lib is available if you want it in some other path
15:23 Ven joined #perl6
15:24 mspo use lib "foo" seems so much easier than local::lib
15:26 RabidGravy views or attachments next, that is the question
15:26 kurahaupo joined #perl6
15:27 RabidGravy as a matter of interest does anyone use CouchDB in their work?  I'm making this thing for my own purposes but I'd be interested to hear what other people use it for
15:29 Ven joined #perl6
15:29 mspo RabidGravy: I do
15:30 mspo RabidGravy: we use it for a better memcache, and for straight up document caching mostly
15:30 mspo RabidGravy: very little usage of views
15:30 RabidGravy cool, do you use attachments?
15:30 mspo never heard of them :)
15:31 mspo RabidGravy: it's just an optional caching layer (for almost everything)
15:31 mspo oh except one place where we use it as a regualr k:v database
15:31 mspo but I think that is still just storing jobvite data
15:31 RabidGravy right, well you could use Sofa now then :)
15:32 mspo probably
15:32 RabidGravy https://github.com/jonathanstowe/Sofa
15:32 RabidGravy It's not so much "simple" now
15:39 AlexDaniel joined #perl6
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15:44 RabidGravy but the "better memcache" thing never occurred to me
15:47 mspo well you can open memcache buckets on couchbase and just use memcache
15:47 mspo it was originally born from memcachedb
15:49 Relsak joined #perl6
15:52 mspo RabidGravy: I also have a group using cassandra as a cache layer; it is a terrible choice
15:52 mspo it collects tombstones like crazy and uses tons of disk to keep itself clean
15:52 mspo why they didn't use redis is beyond me
15:52 vendethiel joined #perl6
16:11 pmurias looking at some programming language shooutout benchmarks results from 2009 Perl 6 performance has improved a *lot*
16:12 khw joined #perl6
16:13 moritz pmurias: there's a mandelbrot fractal generator that I blogged about in 2009(?), whose runtime then was several minutes, and is now at the low seconds
16:14 moritz and even lower if one uses one or two "int" annotations
16:14 AndChat380436 joined #perl6
16:14 moritz (and the code runs unmodified since then :-)
16:14 AndChat380436 p6:say 1;
16:16 vendethiel joined #perl6
16:20 RabidGravy mspo++ # reminding me that Cache::Memcached hadn't been tested since Christmas
16:20 RabidGravy fixed again!
16:20 mspo nice
16:20 mspo RabidGravy: woring on BSON and mongodb next?
16:22 RabidGravy I think the MongoDB module works
16:22 mspo cassandra, then?
16:23 AndChat380436 joined #perl6
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16:30 dalek rakudo/nom: 3053598 | lizmat++ | src/core/Hash.pm:
16:30 dalek rakudo/nom: Make basic hash access 25% faster
16:30 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3053598466
16:31 DrForr Well cr*p, Perl 6 qq{} interpolation is not polite to C code. Which comes as no surprise, but still...
16:31 DrForr Specifically 'c_cell->type = ZERO;' # The -> I can't seem to escape without resorting to heroic methods.
16:32 ZoffixW joined #perl6
16:33 Juerd m: say "foo->bar"
16:33 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«foo->bar␤»
16:33 jnthn lizmat: You might be able to get it even faster
16:33 ZoffixW m: say qq{c_cell->type = ZERO;}
16:33 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«c_cell->type = ZERO;␤»
16:33 Juerd DrForr: I don't understand.
16:33 ZoffixW DrForr, what do you mean?
16:33 lizmat jnthn: i have no doubt, but don't see right now
16:33 DrForr This is in a qq:to/FOO/ heredoc.
16:33 Juerd Still
16:33 skids So, should I leave PR#685 targettied at nom, or is there a new set of branches now?  (It has a minor, untested-in-roast behavioral change that is most likely not being relied on by anyone, in addition to plain old bugfixes)
16:33 jnthn lizmat: The trick is that nqp::atpos returns null if the key does not exist
16:33 Juerd DrForr: Is it a hash key that starts with a < somewhere earlier?
16:33 ZoffixW DrForr, but -> is not special :/
16:34 lizmat jnthn: atpos?   you mean atkey?  and: also on JVM?
16:34 DrForr No, as I said it's C code, but embedded in a here-doc.
16:34 jnthn lizmat: well, atpos does too, but I meant atkey
16:34 jnthn lizmat: Yes, on JVM...this is relied on quite a bit by NQP code-gen.
16:34 Juerd DrForr: Do you have a full example that you can share on pastebin or a gist?
16:34 ZoffixW m: https://gist.github.com/zoff​ixznet/dfe07b2e4531c7012ba6
16:34 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«c_cell->type = ZERO;␤␤»
16:34 lizmat ok, I'll try
16:34 DrForr Which is inside {}, which means the code is interpreted as a Perl 6 block.
16:34 DrForr <facepalm/>
16:34 ZoffixW Ah :D
16:34 jnthn lizmat: Anyway, there's also an nqp::ifnull op that returns the first thing if it's not null, otherwise evaluates the second thing.
16:35 lizmat jnthn: yes, I'm aware  :-)
16:35 jnthn lizmat: so nqp::ifnull(nqp::atkey($storage, $key), nqp::p6bindattrinvres(...)) :)
16:35 jnthn Cool :)
16:35 DrForr Escaping {} does *not* make me a happy camper...
16:36 ZoffixW DrForr, there's a qq flag that removes the {} interpolation
16:36 * ZoffixW digs through the design specs
16:36 * DrForr looks as well.
16:36 jnthn qq:!c
16:36 DrForr Thanks.
16:37 ZoffixW m: my $x = 'meow'; say qq:!c/foo { ey } bar $x/
16:37 camelia rakudo-moar a5fe34: OUTPUT«foo { ey } bar meow␤»
16:37 jnthn Also, lizmat++ for the 25% already :)
16:37 ZoffixW neat
16:37 jnthn Hash access is, like, common :)
16:39 vendethiel joined #perl6
16:40 RabidGravy the quoting doc doesn't mention any adverbs whatsoever BTW
16:40 ZoffixW Well volunteered! :}
16:40 Juerd The quoting doc is a mess imho
16:40 DrForr With that all I have to do is escape '&', something of a win.
16:41 jnthn DrForr: :!f iirc :)
16:41 Juerd I don't have any specific idea how to restructure it, but this is one of those pages where a good structure and good layout can make things much clearer
16:41 lizmat didn't I write an advent post in 2014 about the various flags in quoting ?
16:41 Juerd DrForr: Instead of disabling interpolation things, you can also start witha blank slate and enable only what you need.
16:42 Juerd lizmat: Sure, but that doesn't make great reference documentation either
16:42 lizmat true
16:42 Juerd That's more tutorial-like
16:42 DrForr What I actually need is a proper template library, but since I'm loathe to try to port TT I'm making do ATM.
16:43 DrForr Well, I'm not loathe to port, I'm more of the opinion that we can build better.
16:43 * ZoffixW is porting Mojo::Template
16:43 RabidGravy Template6 could do with some love
16:44 ZoffixW Might be done by the end of the weekend, though I might end up spending the entirety of it looking for new apartments.
16:44 [Tux] https://gist.github.com/Tux/22218a1481bf80dd4240
16:44 RabidGravy I abandoned trying to use it for JSON::Infer
16:45 lizmat [Tux]: so about 8% of total time for compiling
16:46 [Tux] yes
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16:49 dalek rakudo/nom: 556b829 | lizmat++ | src/core/Hash.pm:
16:49 dalek rakudo/nom: Make simple hash access another 8% faster, jnthn++
16:49 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/556b82990d
16:50 * [Tux] goes for a new make …
16:50 ZoffixW w00t lizmat++
16:54 skids joined #perl6
16:58 [Tux] no noticable change for my code
16:59 lizmat [Tux]: didn't expect that, really
16:59 [Tux] no harm in trying :)
16:59 lizmat I mean, it's a total of about 30% of something very little already
16:59 tony-o_ RabidGravy: interesting idea, why did you abandon it?
17:00 RabidGravy which?
17:00 tony-o_ JSON::Infer
17:00 lizmat jnthn: does it make currently sense to add --> Nil to methods that are not supposed to return a value ?
17:01 lizmat e.g. Block.fire_phasers ?
17:01 RabidGravy Oh no, that works fine, I abandoned trying to use Template6 to generate the code
17:01 jnthn lizmat: It's a good idea for avoiding accidental value leakage, yes
17:01 RabidGravy I'll probably revisit it at some point if some nicer templating thingy comes along
17:02 [Tux] but CSV::Parser is (just) under 50 again
17:02 [Tux] 49.7
17:02 tony-o_ RabidGravy: anything in particular you look for in a templating system?  i wrote protone and walked myself into a corner with it.  it's one of those projects i'm going to revisit during one of these plane rides
17:04 RabidGravy I think it was the recursively calling object method s in the template that broke Template6 for me
17:05 RabidGravy i.e. passing one object to the template and then getting lists of the same type of object in the template (nested classes in the JSON::Infer case)
17:06 vendethiel joined #perl6
17:09 tony-o_ ah, protone can do recursion in the template
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17:15 RabidGravy I'll give the tires a good kick at some point :)
17:15 lokien_ joined #perl6
17:15 dalek rakudo/nom: 172a92b | lizmat++ | src/core/Block.pm:
17:15 dalek rakudo/nom: Mark methods as not returning anything
17:15 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/172a92bf33
17:16 tony-o_ RabidGravy: good, i've fixed a few issues with it and had some good feedback/enhancement requests that i just saw yesterday (sorry raiph)
17:18 maybekoo5 joined #perl6
17:21 ZoffixW What's a "document nation" that we're working on? :S https://twitter.com/notcalledj​ack/status/694928475917008896
17:22 ZoffixW oh.. "documentation" + auto correct?
17:22 musiKk joined #perl6
17:22 * ZoffixW never understood why people use that thing
17:25 ZoffixW DrForr, BTW, I'm a bit confused by your making a bunch of people admins this morning. What do you mean by "admin authorization of posts"? Can't any member of the group post?
17:25 ZoffixW (that was in reference to our Facebook group)
17:37 RabidGravy I think it means that "report to admin" goes to more than one person
17:37 RabidGravy or maybe it's moderated now
17:38 RabidGravy someone post something so we can see what happens
17:38 ZoffixW :D
17:38 SCHAAP137 joined #perl6
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17:39 timotimo oh god, what have i done
17:39 timotimo (on the perl6-user-experience wiki)
17:41 * ZoffixW gives timotimo an invitation to the club
17:41 ZoffixW Had the same experience with #5 :)
17:48 MadcapJake I'm gonna try my hand at writing that bug reporter tool.
17:49 ZoffixW MadcapJake++
17:50 MadcapJake it'll be a form ala StackOverflow, enter the title and it'll show related tickets
17:51 MadcapJake perl6 server will scrape rt.perl.org and send json data back to client, client will send completed form back to server and email it to rakudobug@perl.org
17:52 sevvie joined #perl6
17:55 RabidGravy cool
17:56 MadcapJake I could even integrate other fields, like compiler version, language version, etc.
17:56 hoelzro MadcapJake: have you seen the RT command line client?
17:56 hoelzro you might want to use that instead of scraping
17:56 MadcapJake no i haven't that would certainly make this easier
17:56 timotimo hey hoelzro :)
17:56 hoelzro howdy timo!
17:57 timotimo there was a release; you're the "owner" of the rakudo docker, aren't you? or is that only for rakudo star?
17:57 MadcapJake hoelzro: how do i install the RT cli? (no perl5 experience)
17:58 hoelzro timotimo: yeah, just for star
17:58 timotimo OK
17:58 timotimo so that'll happen soon enough, too. but not right now :)
17:58 hoelzro MadcapJake: which OS are you on?
17:58 MadcapJake ubuntu
17:58 hoelzro timotimo: don't worry, I'll take care of it when it happens =)
17:59 hoelzro MadcapJake: ok, so I recommend you install cpanminus and local::lib; they're both probably in APT
17:59 timotimo yay
17:59 Skarsnik MadcapJake, you can inspire of the debianbug repport tools maybe
17:59 hoelzro after you have cpanm, you can install the RT client locally via cpanm -l rt-lib RT::Client::CLI
17:59 MadcapJake Skarsnik: got a link?
18:00 Skarsnik https://wiki.debian.org/reportbug
18:00 RabidGravy Ooh 🎹
18:01 Skarsnik It's really nice by offering to search for similar bug and stuff
18:01 timotimo *sigh* our in-lining fu is rather weak sometimes
18:01 MadcapJake Skarsnik: I'm not seeing it, just see details of a cli
18:01 sevvie good localtime all.
18:01 Skarsnik it's a cli
18:02 hoelzro being able to search for similar bugs would be a godsend
18:02 MadcapJake Skarsnik: ahh xD I'm making a web reporting tool for the "pointy clicky" fans ;)
18:02 hoelzro I mean, you can in RT already, but I think that you could easily miss some duplicates that exist already
18:02 MadcapJake but perhaps I could extrapolate some of this out into a perl6-only cli
18:02 Skarsnik I used debian reportbug tool 1-2 time it was really nice
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18:15 DrForr ZoffixWin: Around?
18:16 sjoshi joined #perl6
18:22 DrForr ZoffixWin: My logic is as follows: We're large enough that spammers are doing MitM attacks on us now. All the group regulars are (or should be) admins, and able to post by themselves without causing inconvenience. Non-regulars that actually have Perl 6 content (unlikely, but possible) have to wait a bit. Spammers can be blocked, deleted from the group and anyone they "invite" can burn in hell.
18:23 MadcapJake BTW all: my perl6fe grammar is coming to github soon! https://github.com/github/linguist/commit​/697b3351e6472354b40ddc1dacb5d628ef23a6f7
18:23 MadcapJake sevvie++
18:24 Zero_Dogg joined #perl6
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18:30 DrForr .tell ZoffixWin My logic is as follows: We're large enough that spammers are doing MitM attacks on us now. All the group regulars are (or should be) admins, and able to post by themselves without causing inconvenience. Non-regulars that actually have Perl 6 content (unlikely, but possible) have to wait a bit. Spammers can be blocked, deleted from the group and anyone they "invite" can burn in hell.
18:30 yoleaux DrForr: I'll pass your message to ZoffixWin.
18:32 Actualeyes left #perl6
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18:36 FROGGS o/
18:39 AndChat380436 >say 1;
18:40 AndChat380436 >p6:say 1;
18:41 DrForr o/
18:42 DrForr m: say 1;
18:42 camelia rakudo-moar 172a92: OUTPUT«1␤»
18:43 AndChat380436 Thx!
18:43 AndChat380436 m: say 2;
18:43 camelia rakudo-moar 172a92: OUTPUT«2␤»
18:43 DrForr np.
18:43 AndChat380436 cool
18:51 jdv79 has anyone tried to install the entire eco's worth?
18:52 jdv79 i wasn't that far into it and i hit a lock.  i'm guessing it might be the CUR lock.
18:52 jdv79 is that still an open issue?
18:53 vendethiel joined #perl6
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19:13 timotimo why would the cur lock prevent you from installing stuff? isn't it only there to prevent concurrent access to the database?
19:17 jdv79 not sure.  maybe related to this:  https://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6​-toolchain/2016-01-30#i_11964808
19:17 jdv79 i need to repro it again to check
19:21 timotimo well, you can at least set that environment variable that makes module loading and precomp extra verbose
19:21 FROGGS stmuk_: ping
19:22 stmuk_ pong
19:22 vendethiel joined #perl6
19:22 FROGGS stmuk_: you did a lot of preparations for star, right?
19:23 stmuk_ yes
19:23 FROGGS stmuk_: thank you :o)
19:23 FROGGS stmuk_: what's left to do?
19:23 stmuk_ AFAIK nothing
19:23 FROGGS stmuk_: awesome
19:24 FROGGS then I'll cut the release now
19:24 stmuk_ :D
19:25 RabidGravy then at some point I may get a fedora upgrade :)
19:25 stmuk_ actually I haven't tagged
19:26 laz78 joined #perl6
19:27 FROGGS stmuk_: sure, that's fine
19:27 stmuk_ moritz did the submodules stages and I should have done up to step 11
19:27 addison_ joined #perl6
19:28 molaf joined #perl6
19:28 jdv79 /home/jdv/cpan-api/.panda-work/​1450665684_1/lib/.precomp/.lock seem to be what caused the blockage
19:28 jdv79 hmm
19:28 FROGGS stmuk_: that's nice, because that gives me extra time to fix something with the msi on windows
19:28 musiKk joined #perl6
19:29 FROGGS jdv79: and it is not just a module or test that infiniloops?
19:30 dha joined #perl6
19:30 awwaiid Is there a way for concurrent threads to increment a shared counter safely? In clojure I'd do (swap! counter inc), which does software-transactional-memory stuff to try to increment the counter, and if another thread messed with the counter at the same time to to retry so no increments are lost
19:30 jdv79 working on that
19:31 stmuk_ RabidGravy: surely a fedora upgrade would be debian :P
19:31 jdv79 but.  now an infiloop causes a repo lock - that's different if that's the case
19:32 jdv79 this whole repo lock shenanigans thing is concerning
19:33 jnthn awwaiid: Do you want a counter, or do you just want a sequence of values that are thread-safe to obtain?
19:34 jnthn awwaiid: See https://github.com/jnthn/p6-concurrent-iterator if so
19:37 awwaiid thanks jnthn, will check it out. I was also just perusing https://6guts.wordpress.com/2014/04/17/​racing-to-writeness-to-wrongness-leads/ .
19:40 leont joined #perl6
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19:41 dalek doc: fcfa134 | (Daniel Perrett)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod:
19:41 dalek doc: Provide a simpler example for reversed operators
19:41 dalek doc:
19:41 dalek doc: Reversed operators are taught before operator reduction, so give an example that does not depend on operator reduction
19:41 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/fcfa134091
19:41 dalek doc: 7f4a641 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod:
19:41 dalek doc: Merge pull request #377 from pdl/pr-r-operator-example
19:41 dalek doc:
19:41 dalek doc: Provide a simpler example for reversed operators
19:41 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/7f4a641bd1
19:43 vendethiel jnthn: we don't have atomics in p6, do we?
19:43 dalek doc: 0f8387b | (Daniel Perrett)++ | doc/Language/setbagmix.pod:
19:43 dalek doc: Added index terms for doc/Langualge/setbagmix.pod
19:43 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/0f8387b49d
19:43 dalek doc: 4caa0dc | (Daniel Perrett)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod:
19:43 dalek doc: Trim trailing spaces in operators.pod
19:43 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/4caa0dcfcc
19:43 dalek doc: 5952ee5 | (Daniel Perrett)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod:
19:43 dalek doc: Add index entries for postfix and prefix call
19:43 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/5952ee517e
19:43 dalek doc: bdf35b1 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Language/ (2 files):
19:43 dalek doc: Merge pull request #378 from pdl/pr-index-more-operators
19:43 dalek doc:
19:43 dalek doc: Index more operators
19:43 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/bdf35b1592
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20:01 donaldh joined #perl6
20:01 hoelzro I'm wondering, with the advent of #perl6-{toolchain,release}, if this channel should become #perl6-dev and #perl6 should be a "welcome to the language" channel
20:02 dalek nqp: bc5b1df | donaldh++ | / (3 files):
20:02 dalek nqp: Add lstat, stat_time and lstat_time on JVM
20:02 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/bc5b1df2de
20:04 dha This assumes we wish to welcome people. :-)
20:07 ribasushi joined #perl6
20:08 dolmen joined #perl6
20:14 El_Che hoelzro: an other level of indirection kind of thing? :)
20:15 hoelzro dha: =)
20:15 skids Personally I think isolating developers from users is a foot on a slippery slope.
20:15 hoelzro El_Che: I'm just thinking about how I've seen people talk about how #perl6 itself has become difficult to backlog, but the newer, topic-focused channels are easier to backlog
20:16 leont Backlog is the main reason for those channels IME
20:16 hoelzro skids: I'm not saying that everyone working on Rakudo should just stay in #perl6-dev; they would (hopefully!) still stick around to help people
20:16 leont Things tend to get lost otherwise
20:16 skids What's missing is backog summaries.
20:16 skids hoelzro: nice in theory but I've seen that end badly.
20:16 El_Che a mix channel will help adoption, imho
20:16 El_Che mixed
20:17 El_Che it's also easier to help people to get involved
20:17 hoelzro skids: alright, just a thought
20:19 MadcapJake any input on what should be required fields for submitting bugs?
20:20 perigrin subject, description, cc#, expiration date, CVV2 ...
20:20 timotimo skids: are they really missing, though? at least last time i looked someone was still using the summary feature on the irclog
20:20 dha perigrin++
20:20 geekosaur *eyeroll*
20:20 MadcapJake expiration date?
20:21 geekosaur credit card info
20:21 timotimo shipping address
20:21 perigrin MadcapJake: so you can tell if the card number is still valid.
20:21 MadcapJake lol
20:21 perigrin timotimo: billing address ... it's software ... adn honestly stripe doesn't require it
20:21 timotimo hm. fair enough.
20:21 hoelzro timotimo: irclog.perlgeek.de? it has a summarization feature?
20:21 timotimo yes, it does
20:21 hoelzro huh, TIL
20:22 timotimo every line has a "to be included in the summary view" field in the database, and you can edit that in summary-edit mode
20:22 MadcapJake but would something like language version or compiler version make sense on a bug report? could just be optional but having a field there would means some might use it
20:22 timotimo https://video.fosdem.org/2016/h2214/  -  IIUC, this room was the perl devroom, and no videos have been uploaded there yet
20:23 El_Che timotimo: no, but they will be
20:23 timotimo hopefully they'll arrive this side of christmas this time
20:23 timotimo er
20:23 El_Che timotimo: there is raw video in a private url, and tom's backup video
20:23 El_Che we're golden
20:23 timotimo that sounds good!
20:24 El_Che yeah, last time is was pretty terrible
20:24 MadcapJake ok well i'll add it (lang/comp fields) and if anyone decides they don't like it, we can strip it out later
20:25 dha So... documentation question. Is there a document that covers the syntax of function signatures in detail? Last I looked, there wasn't, but that may have changed.
20:26 timotimo http://doc.perl6.org/language/functions#Signatures - this really doesn't cover much
20:26 yurivish joined #perl6
20:27 skids http://docs.perl6.org/type/Signature
20:28 dha Right. When I was working on the - now abandoned - usage statements, I often hit things in function signatures that were not at all obvious. I've been thinking for some time that there should be a document explaining the ins and outs of signatures for people who are not already Perl 6 aficionados.
20:29 wamba joined #perl6
20:30 dha Because, silly me, I think we might want *new* people to use Perl 6. :-)
20:31 dha Arguably, a document on how to use the documentation would probably not be amiss.
20:31 perlpilot A good book or three would be nice too.  :)
20:32 bjz joined #perl6
20:32 bjz joined #perl6
20:32 skids well, if type/Signature is not specific enough, then there is always the synopsis.
20:33 dha I should probably look at type/Signature more closely.
20:33 dha perlpilot -  Yeah. I think now that Perl 6 actually exists, that will start happening.
20:33 timotimo that page is surprisingly good
20:33 franciskittu joined #perl6
20:34 skids But I think when you get down to it most Signature questions are a "What is This Character doing Here?" question so if anyone wants to enhance the glossary with the old material from WITCH they are very welcome to.
20:34 MadcapJake yeah the type/Signature page info is great (I often feel a lot of it should be in the main function page)
20:35 franciskittu joined #perl6
20:35 RabidGravy yeah, the type/Signature is pretty damn thorough and linked from the functions
20:36 dha Actually, what I'm probably thinking is missing is a "this character means *this*" sort of thing. I. e. something more geared to helping people read signatures, rather than helping people write signatures.
20:36 dalek star: de789fb | FROGGS++ | modules/ (4 files):
20:36 dalek star: update modules
20:36 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/de789fb026
20:38 skids .oO(automated svg "sentence diagram" based on parser rule names... hmm)
20:40 dha For instance, it isn't immediately obvious what ":D" means in  "returns Date:D"
20:41 dha It's findable in Type/Signatures, but it doesn't jump out at you.
20:41 perlpilot clearly it means we're returning a really happy Date instead of a sad one.
20:42 skids Right but if you were able to look up ":" and get something like this: http://www.perlfoundation.org​/perl6/index.cgi?witch_colon (except up to date enough to know about :D) it would be nice
20:42 dha perlpilot++
20:43 dha yeah, but I bet trying to look up something as common as ":" would be... difficult.
20:43 skids dha: see the URL?
20:43 dalek star: f4948b4 | FROGGS++ | docs/announce/2016.01.md:
20:43 dalek star: refrase support of S09 and S11
20:43 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/f4948b448e
20:43 dha yes.
20:44 perlpilot one that occasionally gets me is that I'll sometimes accidentally omit the space in   sub foo (@a ($alpha, $beta, *@)) { }
20:44 cpage_ joined #perl6
20:44 perlpilot though lately I've taken to always writing it with a colon  @a:($alpha,$beta, *@)
20:44 skids It could probably use a "When used in a SIgnature" section, granted.
20:45 dha I also see that that url is at perlfoundation.org, and does not result from a search for ":" at doc.perl6.org. So... not an obvious place to look.
20:46 dha And, as noted, use in a signature would be needed...
20:46 laz78 joined #perl6
20:47 dha Anyway, I'm going home before the weather gets any worse. later, all.
20:48 skids Right and it is woefully out of date.  What I'm saying is that material neds to be moved to http://docs.perl6.org/language/glossary or somesuch so the searchbox can be told "single non-alhanum character?  look it up in the glossary"
20:48 cdg joined #perl6
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20:51 DrForr How would one catch die()?
20:52 skids m: { die(foo); CATCH { default { } } }
20:52 camelia rakudo-moar 172a92: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/8wTaFPLxtr␤Undeclared routine:␤    foo used at line 1␤␤»
20:52 DrForr %*SIG<die> or has that moed?
20:52 flussence m: die "foo"; CATCH { default { say "bar" } }; say "baz";
20:52 camelia rakudo-moar 172a92: OUTPUT«bar␤»
20:52 DrForr Ah, thanks.
20:52 geekosaur I would hope the SIG hack is dead
20:52 flussence not quite what I expected...
20:53 Juerd flussence: Did you expect die not to die because of the CATCH?
20:53 flussence m: { die "foo"; CATCH { default { say "bar" } } }; say "baz";
20:53 camelia rakudo-moar 172a92: OUTPUT«bar␤baz␤»
20:53 flussence ah, scope.
20:53 Juerd Yes. die still dies :)
20:54 geekosaur die aborts the block it's in, which block had the say baz
20:54 Juerd m: say 11; { CATCH { say 42 }; die 23; } say 22;
20:54 camelia rakudo-moar 172a92: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/FQqzv1S_dk␤Strange text after block (missing semicolon or comma?)␤at /tmp/FQqzv1S_dk:1␤------> 3say 11; { CATCH { say 42 }; die 23; }7⏏5 say 22;␤    expecting any of:␤        infix␤        inf…»
20:54 Juerd m: say 11; { CATCH { say 42 }; die 23; }; say 22;
20:54 camelia rakudo-moar 172a92: OUTPUT«11␤42␤23␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/lYQXcTXTQZ line 1␤␤»
20:55 jnthn vendethiel: No atomic ops yet, no. Perhaps for 6.d. :)
20:55 nowan joined #perl6
20:56 vendethiel okay :)
20:57 DrForr Yep, that works, thanks. Dying in the middle of a NativeCall callback corrupts the stack.
20:57 DrForr Not surprising, but I'd prefer to catch it in code rather than get surprised.
20:59 dolmen joined #perl6
21:01 DrForr Well, unwinds not corrupts, but it's still annoying.
21:01 geekosaur arguably any such unwind needs to stop at the border
21:02 donaldh joined #perl6
21:02 geekosaur could cause nasty bugs on the foreign side otherwise
21:02 DrForr I'd think so too.
21:06 RabidGravy flussence, if you want what you expected then:
21:06 RabidGravy m:  die "foo"; CATCH { default { say "bar"; .resume; } }; say "baz"
21:06 camelia rakudo-moar 172a92: OUTPUT«bar␤baz␤»
21:07 flussence aha, thanks
21:07 flussence (knew there was something, just couldn't remember what)
21:09 donaldh Ugh, Configure.pl says nqp-j is too old. It really isn't
21:12 donaldh Why is (0, 1) the result of parsing 2016.01-1-gbc5b1df
21:13 DrForr The 'c' maybe? (complex number)
21:14 donaldh Ah, parse_revision in tools/lib/NQP/Configure.pm was rewritten in the last commit.
21:15 musiKk joined #perl6
21:15 sortiz joined #perl6
21:15 donaldh that's very broken
21:16 Ben_Goldberg joined #perl6
21:18 sortiz \o #perl6
21:20 DrForr CATCH{} doesn't appear in the Search box. (I'm aware it's a phaser, just pointing out the omission.)
21:20 buharin joined #perl6
21:20 buharin hello
21:20 buharin I have no idea how to implement this https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL_RWops
21:20 buharin that should be simple methods in class
21:21 buharin method size(SDL_RWops)
21:22 espadrine joined #perl6
21:23 timotimo nah, you have to have a CStruct and assign function pointers
21:23 Psyche^_ joined #perl6
21:23 DrForr buharin: size() is a callback.
21:24 timotimo i don't think we have something to directly turn a piece of code into a function pointer, though? but perhaps it's enough to put a &foo in there
21:24 tony-o_ m: https://gist.github.com/to​ny-o/ef83abc5027251126804
21:24 camelia rakudo-moar 172a92: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/DfUtL532th␤Unable to parse expression in argument list; couldn't find final ')' ␤at /tmp/DfUtL532th:1␤------> 3ub r(Mu7⏏5 $r?) { }; ␤    expecting any of:␤        infix␤        infix stopper␤»
21:24 tony-o_ m: https://gist.github.com/to​ny-o/ef83abc5027251126804
21:24 buharin timotimo, yeah I used Cstruct class
21:24 timotimo if you just put the code in as methods, it won't end up as fields
21:25 camelia rakudo-moar 172a92: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
21:25 buharin but what I should put in class
21:25 buharin mmm
21:25 buharin true
21:26 buharin timotino how to create callback then?
21:27 RabidGravy I think you are totally in uncharted territory here
21:27 timotimo m: use NativeCall; class Test is repr('CStruct') { has &.callback }
21:27 camelia rakudo-moar 172a92: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/6KOC0DbiFP␤CStruct representation only handles int, num, CArray, CPointer, CStruct, CPPStruct and CUnion␤at /tmp/6KOC0DbiFP:1␤»
21:27 buharin oh lol
21:27 buharin xD
21:28 buharin it looks like perl callback
21:28 timotimo it has to
21:28 buharin but what about argument informations
21:28 timotimo hm, how does nativecast look
21:29 timotimo probably "has &.callback:(int32 $foo, int32 $bar)" or something
21:30 donaldh PR to unbust nqp version check during Configure : https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/703
21:31 timotimo m: use NativeCall; nativecast(Pointer, -> int32 $a { say "test" }).perl.say
21:31 camelia rakudo-moar 172a92: OUTPUT«Native call expected return type with CPointer, CStruct, CArray, or VMArray representation, but got a P6opaque␤  in sub nativecast at /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/sou​rces/075EFE4B4CDAAF73190194EA876F81A1F128D1A2 line 367␤  in block <unit> …»
21:31 timotimo nope.
21:31 timotimo m: use NativeCall; nativecast(Pointer, -> int32 $a, --> int32 { say "test" }).perl.say
21:31 camelia rakudo-moar 172a92: OUTPUT«Native call expected return type with CPointer, CStruct, CArray, or VMArray representation, but got a P6opaque␤  in sub nativecast at /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/sou​rces/075EFE4B4CDAAF73190194EA876F81A1F128D1A2 line 367␤  in block <unit> …»
21:31 timotimo m: use NativeCall; nativecast(Pointer, -> int32 $a --> int32 { say "test" }).perl.say
21:31 camelia rakudo-moar 172a92: OUTPUT«Native call expected return type with CPointer, CStruct, CArray, or VMArray representation, but got a P6opaque␤  in sub nativecast at /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/sou​rces/075EFE4B4CDAAF73190194EA876F81A1F128D1A2 line 367␤  in block <unit> …»
21:31 timotimo ...
21:33 perlpilot https://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2015/12​/21/day-21-nativecall-backs-and-beyond-c/
21:33 perlpilot might help
21:33 TEttinger joined #perl6
21:34 timotimo perlpilot: the thing is, that only works when passed to a function as an argument
21:36 RabidGravy howzabout declaring it as a Pointer, dereference to a &thingy, apply the Native role to the result etc
21:37 buharin timotimo it looks like callbacks cant be part of CStruct
21:38 AlexDaniel joined #perl6
21:38 buharin CStruct representation only handles int, num, CArray, CPointer, CStruct, CPPStruct and CUnion
21:38 FROGGS buharin: that's true
21:38 timotimo yeah, but you need a way to turn the callback into a Pointer
21:38 FROGGS buharin: we do not (yet) support function pointers there
21:38 buharin FROGGS, wtf?
21:39 RabidGravy you could hack round it with a tiny C function
21:40 buharin RabidGravy, what do you mean by tiny C function?
21:41 Skarsnik code a small C wrapper
21:41 timotimo void *transform(void *input) { return input }
21:42 Skarsnik You can always hold the functor on a Pointer
21:42 RabidGravy yeah, basically just tat
21:42 buharin oh you mean write C functions which will invoke callbacks
21:43 RabidGravy yeah, the struct member is just a pointer to function
21:43 sortiz Nop, functions to turns callbacks into CPointer, for storage in p6 land.
21:44 buharin I will rather wait till perl6 will be complete than change library implementation :P
21:44 RabidGravy "complete" ?
21:45 DrForr At that you'll be waiting a long time...
21:45 buharin xD
21:46 DrForr You might want to look at https://github.com/drforr/​perl6-Inline-Scheme-Guile
21:47 ELBeavers joined #perl6
21:47 RabidGravy It's entirely possible that most of the code to do this is actually there, it's just not exposed in NativeCall, as, I'm guessing here, the nqp::nativecall somewhere under the hood gets a pointer to a function which it gets from the dynamic loader
21:48 RabidGravy and then executes it with the (marshalled) arguments
21:48 AlexDaniel skids: I'm not sure what precedence problem you are talking about here: https://rt.perl.org/Public/​Bug/Display.html?id=127424
21:48 AlexDaniel skids: did you miss the whitespace?
21:48 AlexDaniel m: say ^11 .rotor: 1.5
21:48 camelia rakudo-moar 172a92: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native integer␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/ZlISoGB0MY line 1␤␤»
21:48 AlexDaniel m: say ^11.rotor: 1.5
21:48 camelia rakudo-moar 172a92: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤    Precedence of ^ is looser than method call; please parenthesize␤    at /tmp/eV2ZW0dqqR:1␤    ------> 3say ^117⏏5.rotor: 1.5␤^0␤»
21:48 Skarsnik RabidGravy, probably, I should have a look one day. Not sure where is that, NQP or Moar x)
21:48 AlexDaniel skids: ↑
21:49 buharin mmm
21:50 skids AlexDaniel: indeed, missed the whitespace.
21:51 sortiz RabidGravy, I suppose that, see https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo​/blob/nom/lib/NativeCall.pm6#L45, NCI uses the 'callaback' type for the marshalling.
21:51 * skids reminds himself never to use that infix dot for readability reasons.
21:54 AlexDaniel skids: you can use more spaces to make it more readable
21:54 buharin guile next open source language ;d
21:54 skids AlexDaniel: I'll stick with parens.
21:55 gcole joined #perl6
21:58 geraud joined #perl6
22:03 DrForr buharin: Heh.
22:04 ZoffixWin So how is the https://perl6.slack.com/ experiment going?
22:04 yoleaux 18:30Z <DrForr> ZoffixWin: My logic is as follows: We're large enough that spammers are doing MitM attacks on us now. All the group regulars are (or should be) admins, and able to post by themselves without causing inconvenience. Non-regulars that actually have Perl 6 content (unlikely, but possible) have to wait a bit. Spammers can be blocked, deleted from the group and anyone they "invite" can burn in hell.
22:05 * ZoffixWin noticed an email from slack, saying I was mentioned
22:05 MadcapJake ZoffixWin: yeah I mentioned you
22:05 vendethiel joined #perl6
22:06 ZoffixWin It was my lead in to this item I saw the other day: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10486541
22:06 ZoffixWin Apparently Slack itself said they don't have FOSS communities in mind and their architecture is not suited for such uses :/
22:06 DrForr That was pretty obvious when trying to sign up :/
22:07 ZoffixWin :D
22:07 stmuk_ slack-- # hipster IRC
22:09 MadcapJake ZoffixWin: as I've said before, I don't disagree.  The point *isn't* to make the slack the only community of Perl 6. It's *only* meant to promote Perl 6 in the Slack-user community, which is much larger than the IRC-stalwarts would like to admit.
22:09 MadcapJake much much larger
22:09 ZoffixWin MadcapJake, cool cool
22:10 ZoffixWin yeah, the more communication channels we have the better
22:10 AlexDaniel MadcapJake: “any input on what should be required fields for submitting bugs?” – no fields should be required :)
22:11 AlexDaniel MadcapJake: if the user wants to submit a bug report like this, then fine… But it should be possible to edit the title
22:12 MadcapJake ZoffixWin: that's what I'm thinking, any time you want to do outreach, you have to go where the people are.  Would you try to start a Esperanto speakers group in a city but only if members communicated by letter or in person? No, you're group won't survive or grow because people are interested in newer (less-free,less-principled) communication forms
22:12 RabidGravy I'd never heard of slack until it was mentioned here
22:12 AlexDaniel MadcapJake: in other words: accept any data, we'll figure it out later
22:12 MadcapJake AlexDaniel: totally agree, I'm just thinking that maybe I could "mold" the resultant email in a more usable way
22:12 jast the first rule of marketing: connect to your target audience rather than the biggest group of people you can find
22:12 ZoffixWin jast++
22:13 stmuk_ its like a less good IRC in a webpage where you have to register for each channel everytime
22:13 MadcapJake jast: i don't see how that relates, what's the Perl 6 target audience if not other programmers?
22:13 jast well, not *all* programmers are the target audience
22:13 MadcapJake jast: that i fully disagree with
22:13 jast I know a lot of programmers who find the ideas of Perl 6 completely off-putting
22:14 jast and it's their good right to prefer a different style of language
22:14 MadcapJake jast: doesn't mean that we shouldn't target all programmers just because a few find it "off-putting"
22:14 ZoffixWin MadcapJake, well, to give an example. Would you expend effort trying to convince a group of die-hard Pythonistas to use Perl 6 instead?
22:14 MadcapJake yes
22:14 jast if you can somehow manage to "segment the market" to reach only those people who are likely to enjoy Perl 6, that would be lots more efficient
22:14 ZoffixWin MadcapJake, but that means you have fewer resources to target other segments.
22:14 MadcapJake jast: haha right, that's exactly it, you can't do that
22:15 MadcapJake ZoffixWin: not if you just target *all* programmers
22:15 jast well I'm not so quick with blanket statements of impossibility
22:15 ZoffixWin MadcapJake, that's akin to trying to sell an energy drink to "*all* people"
22:15 ZoffixWin It's too utopian a goal to achieve realistically.
22:15 MadcapJake but they do target all people! they just use their messaging style and presentation to filter
22:16 jast not really
22:16 jast ads for energy drinks are way more likely to run during sports events than, say, soap operas
22:16 ZoffixWin Or be posted in retirement homes
22:16 MadcapJake lol, ok fair enough
22:16 ZoffixWin :)
22:16 * MadcapJake imagines an energy drink ad at a retirement home
22:17 stmuk_ is this someone here? :)
22:17 MadcapJake "do you want to *blast* through another round of jazzercise! do you want to slaughter your opponents in bingo? then drink Monster!"
22:17 jast that might actually be doable
22:17 * perlpilot notices mention of perl6.slack.com ...
22:17 perlpilot when did that happen?
22:17 stmuk_ http://perl.postbit.com/upload/109/perl-6-logo.png
22:17 ZoffixWin "Kids never visit? Nurses are mean? Sick of this miserable life? Chug MONSTER DRINK and have a heart attack!"
22:17 stmuk_ :D
22:17 MadcapJake ZoffixWin: LOL
22:18 perlpilot stmuk_: that is an angry butterfly
22:18 DrForr o/ Rockin in the rest home in 2030 o/
22:18 stmuk_ perlpilot: it's scary
22:18 ZoffixWin stmuk_++ Not a fan of that font, but the graphic is awesome :)
22:18 jast my first thought was "angry", too
22:19 [Sno] joined #perl6
22:19 ZoffixWin my first thought was "is that an owl" :)
22:19 stmuk_ its not mine! I just found it
22:19 stmuk_ http://perl.postbit.com/ is good
22:20 perlpilot so, who is using perl6.slack.com?  who set it up?
22:20 perlawhirl joined #perl6
22:20 perlpilot (or is it not setup and merely a dream for now?)
22:21 ZoffixWin perlpilot, It is setup, I believe MadcapJake set it up. And based on the log in it, several people are using it :)
22:21 perlpilot okay, how do I use it? :-)
22:21 jast I prefer my chat without a DOM and JS engine
22:22 jast I think you just open it in your browser and click 'join' or something
22:22 MadcapJake perlpilot: perl6.bestforever.com to signup
22:22 jast oh. cheaty.
22:22 MadcapJake jast: you can use scudcloud, it's a really nice slack client (still has dom and js but at least it's not in a browser)
22:23 jast or I can just use IRC ;P
22:23 jdv79 what is slack for?  just as an irc alternative?
22:23 jast yeah
22:23 jast plus snippet/file sharing, I believe
22:23 perlpilot jdv79: it's a browser-based IRC-like thingy
22:23 jast and it keeps (limited, unless you pay $$$) logfiles
22:23 perlpilot yep
22:24 MadcapJake jdv79: it allows teams, code comments, nice interface, and more
22:24 jdv79 ok
22:24 DrForr Basecamp-a-like if you've used that.
22:24 RabidGravy or even google wave
22:24 perlpilot heh
22:24 jast google what? ;)
22:24 perlpilot What's google wave?  ;)
22:25 MadcapJake s/What's/What was/
22:25 perlpilot don't speak of imaginary things
22:25 RabidGravy was a thing that nobody knew what it was for
22:25 MadcapJake lol
22:25 MadcapJake i think people wanted it after they'd already discontinued it
22:25 jast is wave some kind of buzz?
22:25 RabidGravy they open sourced most of the code
22:25 mspo some kind of messaging platform
22:26 jast (never even noticed buzz getting killed...)
22:26 MadcapJake one of those cultural things where people like it more after it's gone
22:26 franciskittu joined #perl6
22:26 nebuchadnezzar joined #perl6
22:26 jast d'aww, orkut was killed, too
22:27 mspo wave is a lesson in platform sharecropping/relying on google
22:31 perlpilot I dunno we used wave for collaborative event planning  ("Hey, let's go to the movies on Saturday!  You in?"
22:31 perlpilot )
22:32 MadcapJake For anyone interested in the wider "Slacksteria": https://medium.com/@angiecois/an-incomplete​-list-of-communities-on-slack-1b1b6f157bda#.ndz11blxt
22:32 perlpilot wave was neat, but it wasn't neat enough to build something on top of
22:33 perlpilot MadcapJake: that looks like a slack-ad to me  :)
22:33 jdv79 i didn't know we weren't happy with irc.  i am.
22:34 MadcapJake perlpilot: definitely not, they really aren't sure on how much they want slack used for communities rather than teams
22:34 MadcapJake jdv79: again, this is not about replacement.
22:34 buharin hey what does it mean
22:34 buharin adptme
22:34 perlpilot indeed.
22:34 buharin adopt
22:34 buharin adoptme
22:34 jdv79 but if something happens over there it doesn't here so its about fragmentation
22:34 perlpilot buharin: where did you see that in a Perl 6 context?
22:35 buharin http://blogs.perl.org/users/zoffix_znet/2016/​01/modules-for-adoption-bit-rot-thursday.html
22:35 MadcapJake jdv79: so communities can't have several communication channels? Everything must happen on IRC?
22:35 buharin I want to help with some easy module for adopt :D
22:35 buharin but completely don't know how to move on
22:35 perlpilot buharin: for Perl 5 modules, that's usually the signal that the maintainer has given up on maintaining their module and they want someone else to take it over.  I'm guessing it's being used similarly for P6
22:36 geekosaur jdv79, we've discussed gatewaying slack<->irc
22:36 perlpilot ah, Zoffix++
22:36 geekosaur probably in a separate channel on irc that people can join or not as they wish
22:36 DrForr buharin: I think the community is a bit young for adopting modules, maybe it'd be better to look at the 'most wanted'?
22:37 buharin ohh
22:37 jdv79 having multiple places for the same purpose, or similar, just makes it harder to keep up with it all.
22:37 buharin so some guy left their code
22:37 perlpilot jdv79: just accept the fact that you won't keep up "with it all" from the outset  :)
22:37 buharin and will not rewrite it to perl6
22:37 geekosaur (slack supports several kinds of gateways. what it doesn't support is "I don't want to deal with 15 different comm programs")
22:37 ZoffixWin buharin, to clarify, there are two different languages Perl 5 and Perl 6. Perl 5 has ADOPTME PAUSE user that is usually used for when a PAUSE author has passed away.
22:38 dalek doc: 2e6962b | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/ (2 files):
22:38 dalek doc: doc Empty
22:38 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/2e6962bd89
22:38 ZoffixWin buharin, why "some guy"? Maybe it's a girl :)
22:38 geekosaur and if you want to "keep up with it all", how do you deal with stackoverflow+reddit+...?
22:38 ZoffixWin Or a hyper intelligent AI
22:38 jdv79 yeah its fine.  just my 2 cents.
22:38 * perlpilot &
22:39 geekosaur the world's already too big to keep up with everything related to some topic, unless that topic is already effectively dead (and sometimes not even then)
22:39 MadcapJake geekosaur++
22:39 buharin typical question how can I help perl?:D
22:39 DrForr buharin: Writing docs would be a *real* help.
22:40 jdv79 also, irc is public and logged and googleable.  ok, i'm done now.
22:40 ZoffixWin buharin, easiest way? Blog about it and talk about it on Social Media, blogs, Web, and in person
22:40 buharin ZoffixWin, you mean learn by myself and learn the others
22:40 gfldex buharin: don't be shy with hugs and kisses
22:40 MadcapJake buharin: https://github.com/perl6/doc/blob/master/WANTED
22:41 MadcapJake not sure if that's udpated though :P
22:41 ZoffixWin buharin, a good way to learn is to teach :) You learn a new cool thing, write a blog post explaining it
22:41 MadcapJake where is that most-wanted module list?
22:41 ZoffixWin buharin, we also have the Most Wanted modules list: https://github.com/perl6/perl6-most-wan​ted/blob/master/most-wanted/modules.md
22:41 MadcapJake haha, that was fast!
22:42 ZoffixWin I'm a mind reader :P
22:42 ZoffixWin buharin, as well as an Issue with a consideration for cleaning up the Most Wanted modules list :P https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/issues/136
22:43 ZoffixWin buharin, this is of course for the Perl 6 programming language. You may also be interested in Perl 5 language whose modules "some guy" offered for adoption in the blog post you mentioned. The channel for that programming language is #perl
22:43 RabidGravy Are we considering that anything that is actually on the modules list need not be in the most wanted list anymore?
22:44 RabidGravy if so I'll cut out the ones that I have actually released at some point
22:44 buharin ZoffixWin, nooo
22:44 buharin Perl5 is obsolete
22:44 ZoffixWin buharin, :S
22:44 jdv79 the r* list is also kinda outdated
22:44 ZoffixWin buharin, what made you think so? The latest release was 50 *days* ago
22:45 ZoffixWin RabidGravy, that was my proposal, yes. Is there a point in keeping that sort of thing on Most Wanted, considering it already exists and thus no longer "wanted"? :)
22:45 RabidGravy I'll have a look but leave the ones that I haven't released yet
22:45 ZoffixWin buharin, that's comparable to saying C is obsolete in ##c++ channel.
22:46 jast what just happened there
22:46 ZoffixWin I guess I convinced them :P
22:47 DrForr Must not have baited his hook well enough.
22:47 ZoffixWin I doubt there was a hook, considering the conversation started with them linking to my blog post offering module adoption :P
22:48 dalek perl6-most-wanted: b8cd9f5 | RabidGravy++ | most-wanted/modules.md:
22:48 dalek perl6-most-wanted: Remove released modules
22:48 dalek perl6-most-wanted: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6​-most-wanted/commit/b8cd9f5e82
22:48 RabidGravy two really are WIP still
22:49 DrForr I'm willing to accept 'confused' as well, but I'm counting it as "weak troll"/I can't believe I wasted my time typing this sentence.
22:49 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 2690fda | coke++ | log/ (8 files):
22:49 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
22:49 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/2690fda042
22:49 ZoffixWin I'm betting on "confused" :)
22:50 ZoffixWin Was R* released today?
22:50 * ZoffixWin just stumbled upon the release date on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl_6
22:51 * geekosaur got the email about half an hour ago
22:51 buharin joined #perl6
22:52 [Coke] (documentation on the signature) that was my point originally - perl6 already embeds a LOT of information in the signature. if we can make those more obvious, we don't have to maintain separate usage.
22:52 [Coke] (synopses) Don't trust those as canon at this point. they are speculative in many cases compared to the spec itself.
22:52 dalek star: ec0dea1 | FROGGS++ | tools/build/star-product.wxs:
22:52 dalek star: choose to set PATH in wizard on windows
22:52 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/ec0dea1e4d
22:53 [Coke] dha: do not look things up on perlfoundation.org.
22:53 buharin hey is it like you write a module which is most wanted
22:53 buharin then you write on irc that you have done it
22:53 buharin and some guy annonce
22:53 buharin it
22:54 jdv79 something like that
22:54 jdv79 add it to the eco
22:54 DrForr buharin: When you're done there are instructions on the front page of modules.perl6.org on what to do.
22:55 buharin oh ok I see
22:55 buharin ;D
22:55 DrForr Talking about it on IRC doesn't hurt, but also doesn't get it added to the list :)
22:55 * ZoffixWin collects the bet
22:55 [Coke] jdv79: there is already no way to keep up with it all
22:56 jdv79 i know.  that was only a partial argument.  i don't care enough to get into it full on.
22:56 RabidGravy right, toodles people
22:56 jdv79 nite
22:56 [Coke] I for one will very likely never sign on to slack, but go for it if someone wants to be there. I probably don't want a bridge if it's going to be noisy.
22:57 [Coke] I'll keep up with the FB Perl 6 group.
23:00 sevvie [Coke]: curiously, why are you so resistant to signing onto slack?
23:01 yqt joined #perl6
23:05 hoelzro ab5tract: booking is starting to use slack now?
23:05 AlexDaniel lol, why not make a Skype groupchat? :D
23:06 perlawhirl i'm hanging out for some perl fosdem'16 videos. still nothing uploaded from h2214 :(
23:09 hoelzro The "Download Slack" page has a "Linux (Beta)", which has a dropdown with two distros ='(
23:10 sevvie I only ask because Slack benefits as a "install it on your mobile and get messages and notifications directly from the community" kinda thing.
23:10 sevvie </elevatorpitch>
23:10 hoelzro sevvie: I think most people here are probably of the "slack doesn't offer anything IRC doesn't mindset", but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have a Slack team for Perl 6
23:11 AlexDaniel wow, 38 MB download
23:11 hoelzro then again, I don't mean to speak for everyone
23:11 hoelzro it would be wise to have a channel topic in Slack that says "if you don't get an answer here, try IRC"
23:13 AlexDaniel where are the sources for GNU/Linux slack client?
23:13 hoelzro haha
23:13 hoelzro at work, I've been using irssi + slack.pl; works pretty well
23:14 hoelzro sevvie: I just saw you filed an issue against linguist for perl6; I'm sorry =(
23:14 hoelzro oh wow, they got back to you within a day
23:14 hoelzro that's atypical
23:14 ramon joined #perl6
23:15 MadcapJake hoelzro: yeah it's already merged, and the dev said he'd push to github later this week!
23:15 hoelzro nice!
23:15 hoelzro sevvie++ MadcapJake++
23:15 hoelzro it took *forever* for them to move on requests I made
23:16 hoelzro maybe it was how I asked =/
23:16 MadcapJake hoelzro: yeah timotimo showed me a few of the PRs that took around a year to get merged xO
23:17 vendethiel joined #perl6
23:17 MadcapJake perhaps there was a change of the guard or maybe the dev has more time now to deal with linguist.  I think the most likely answer is that this was an easy fix as it didn't require any change to the heuristics
23:18 Skarsnik AlexDaniel, I only use the webclient :(
23:19 azawawi joined #perl6
23:19 azawawi hi
23:19 azawawi https://github.com/azawawi/atom-perl6-editor-tools  # POD Preview in Atom :)
23:20 Skarsnik nice
23:20 azawawi and a couple of snippets for fun :)
23:21 azawawi script<tab> => perl6 script
23:21 hoelzro well, I'm just glad that they merged it quickly =)
23:24 Skarsnik I give an internet cookie if someone make Pg Array in DBIish work correctly (basicly returning correctly Array in a hash)
23:26 AlexDaniel Skarsnik: but the linux client is free software, right? I just cannot find the sources
23:26 Skarsnik No idea
23:27 skids joined #perl6
23:27 hoelzro AlexDaniel: for slack?
23:27 MadcapJake AlexDaniel: https://github.com/raelgc/scudcloud
23:27 AlexDaniel MadcapJake: that's not the official one
23:28 hoelzro the official one is not OSS, afaik
23:28 Skarsnik just write a slack module already
23:28 MadcapJake AlexDaniel: oh, didn't realize there was an official one :P, scudcloud is great though btw
23:28 MadcapJake There's also https://github.com/plaidchat/plaidchat
23:29 Hotkeys Is there a way to add a method to an imported class from within another program
23:29 Hotkeys without just editing the class source
23:29 AlexDaniel hoelzro: Interesting. Why did they bother making a closed-source one?
23:29 AlexDaniel what's the point?
23:30 hoelzro AlexDaniel: I don't know; I don't really *get* slack
23:30 hoelzro both the company and the software
23:30 hoelzro but a lot of people seem to like it
23:30 hoelzro so I guess it's just not *for* me
23:30 Skarsnik It's really nice
23:31 hoelzro it's nice, but I don't see the advantage (for me personally)
23:31 Skarsnik You understimed how annoying it can be to have something like IRC that don't render stuff the same accross client and does not offer link preview
23:31 hoelzro I understand that a lot of people like gifs to be rendered inline in their chat client; I personally don't
23:32 Skarsnik and the webclient part is good because most company block IRC
23:32 hoelzro I understand that IRC is a technical challenge for some people
23:33 AlexDaniel so, you can't just join a group and someone has to invite you? You have to register by using your email in order to get in? They provide a proprietary linux client while there are some free ones? The whole thing is stored on their servers (and we also don't have the sources of that)? Hmmmm…
23:33 AlexDaniel okay, nvm, I'll just move on…
23:35 hoelzro AlexDaniel: yes; if anything, I favor IRC over slack because IRC gives the community a higher degree of control
23:35 hoelzro but my mentality is "use what you like"
23:36 AlexDaniel hoelzro: interestingly there are ‘erc-image-mode’ and ‘erc-youtube-mode’ things that will render images inline in emacs (well if you're using ERC). These are turned out by default in spacemacs but it drives me crazy :)
23:36 AlexDaniel and I guess that some other IRC clients may do that as well
23:36 AlexDaniel turned on*
23:36 hoelzro that's the thing; IRC the protocol doesn't provide a lot of the features slack does; it's up to the clients to do it
23:37 AlexDaniel hoelzro: which is great
23:37 hoelzro agreed
23:37 Skarsnik nop
23:37 Skarsnik it's not great
23:38 Skarsnik just take a simple example: colors
23:38 Skarsnik it does not work exactly the same on every client
23:39 AlexDaniel great! I don't think that everyone likes colors. And that's why it was possible (still is?) to disable colors on some channels
23:40 hoelzro Skarsnik: I'm not arguing that slack isn't good; I'm just stating that I prefer IRC, and agreeing with AlexDaniel that having protocol-client separation for features is a good thing™
23:40 Skarsnik Yes, but IRC is a bad example
23:40 hoelzro I don't think enforcing colors is great either; I have a colorblind friend who gets driven *nuts* by popular colorschemes
23:40 hoelzro (granted, I have a feeling slack provides themes that are colorblind-friendly)
23:41 Skarsnik I use IRC, Discord, Slack
23:41 Skarsnik When I talk with no developper people I prefer Discord/Slack over IRC
23:41 Skarsnik because image/link preview is fun :)
23:42 hoelzro anyway, I don't want to get into an IRC vs Slack discussion; I'm in favor of having both.  If you want to keep talking about it, I'm happy to move this conversation elsewhere =)
23:42 azawawi MadcapJake: do not use farabi6
23:43 azawawi MadcapJake: do not use farabi6's codemirror mode... https://github.com/azawawi/farabi6/issues/46 . It is not finished nor started :(
23:43 hoelzro s/don't want to(.*);/don't want to$1 here;/
23:45 azawawi MadcapJake: but you're welcome to use https://github.com/azawawi/farabi6/blob/maste​r/lib/Farabi6/files/assets/perl6-mode.js#L219 :)
23:45 virtualsue joined #perl6
23:46 Skarsnik what is really sad, it's that slack should have be something xmpp (the jabber underlaying stuff) should have beeing a lonkg time ago
23:46 Skarsnik because I am pretty sure it use web socket :)
23:47 vendethiel joined #perl6
23:47 azawawi Skarsnik: alright 2 Downloads already https://atom.io/packages/atom-perl6-editor-tools :)
23:47 Skarsnik I should try atom :)
23:48 Skarsnik I am using kate with an old p6 hightlighting x)
23:48 Skarsnik good night #perl6
23:49 azawawi MadcapJake: if you cant beat them (atom), join them :)
23:56 wamba joined #perl6

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