Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2016-03-27

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 arnsholt If you pass a closure to the series operator (which is what whatever currying produces), the closure gets passed previous items from the list (IIRC), not the index
00:01 arnsholt Also, each star introduces a new argument, I think
00:02 [Coke] ..
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00:19 RabidGravy I don't know why I was worrying so about this logging thing, it proved to be really simple
00:20 RabidGravy of course no-one else but me will use it but hey
00:21 RabidGravy anyway toodles people
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01:07 ZoffixWin m: for ^9 .hyper: :3batch { say "Doing $_"; sleep 1; } say now - INIT now;
01:07 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/vzhdhFIqvr␤Strange text after block (missing semicolon or comma?)␤at /tmp/vzhdhFIqvr:1␤------> 3er: :3batch { say "Doing $_"; sleep 1; }7⏏5 say now - INIT now;␤»
01:07 ZoffixWin m: for ^9 .hyper: :3batch { say "Doing $_"; sleep 1; }; say now - INIT now;
01:07 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«Doing 0␤Doing 3␤Doing 6␤0.00635797␤»
01:08 ZoffixWin What's a good example of .hyper as counterposed against .race? When is "preserving order of elements" a useful thing, when it seems like they're NOT executed in correct order. Or is that just a bugglet?
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01:09 ZoffixWin m: for ^12 .hyper: :3batch { say "Doing $_"; sleep 1; }; say now - INIT now;
01:09 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«Doing 0␤Doing 3␤Doing 6␤Doing 9␤Doing 1␤Doing 7␤Doing 4␤Doing 10␤Doing 2␤Doing 8␤Doing 5␤Doing 11␤3.0091360␤»
01:10 AlexDaniel ZoffixWin: slides are boring. I am interested in videos :)
01:10 AlexDaniel oh geez, hyper!
01:10 AlexDaniel Hiiiide!
01:11 ZoffixWin AlexDaniel, it'll be on this channel and it'll look just like this except with Perl 6 slides :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaPdlkkSvV8
01:12 geekosaur ZoffixWin, "executed in correct order" implies sequential instead of parallel? preserving order of elements is useful mainly so you don't have to add in an extra value to indicate the input order and sort the result to get that back out. sometimes you care about this, sometimes you don't
01:13 ZoffixWin geekosaur, ah, right, that would be the implication. I guess I'm not understanding how you "get result back out".
01:14 AlexDaniel ZoffixWin: don't use hyper
01:14 AlexDaniel ZoffixWin: that's it.
01:14 AlexDaniel until it is fixed, of course
01:14 ZoffixWin hm, it's on "the menu" for my talk
01:14 ZoffixWin (with caveats that it's still buggy of course)
01:15 AlexDaniel I recommend you not to talk about it
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01:15 ZoffixWin AlexDaniel, what about .race?
01:15 AlexDaniel it is completely broken, therefore it is not relevant for people who want to try out perl 6
01:16 AlexDaniel ZoffixWin: .race is probably ok, but I am not sure
01:16 ZoffixWin k
01:17 AlexDaniel ZoffixWin: These are the ones that I've stumbled upon personally: RT #127190, RT #127452, RT #127099
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01:19 AlexDaniel ZoffixWin: I've tried .race several times and it worked as advertised, but I've never used it in real code
01:20 AlexDaniel ZoffixWin: sometimes .hyper returns nothing, maybe there's a similar bug with .race? I don't know
01:20 ZoffixWin Alright.
01:20 AlexDaniel hmm, one way to know is to check tests
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01:21 AlexDaniel ZoffixWin: https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=126597
01:22 AlexDaniel in other words: no, .race is also not worth mentioning
01:22 ZoffixWin m: @array.combinations(3).race.grep(&is-match).say
01:22 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/b22aAZ6VMd␤Variable '@array' is not declared. Did you mean any of these?␤    Array␤    array␤␤at /tmp/b22aAZ6VMd:1␤------> 3<BOL>7⏏5@array.combinations(3).race.grep(&is-mat␤»
01:22 ZoffixWin m: ^10 .combinations(3).race.grep(&is-match).say
01:22 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/L4ILeOyfRZ␤Undeclared routine:␤    is-match used at line 1. Did you mean 'unimatch'?␤␤»
01:23 ZoffixWin ~_~
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01:26 AlexDaniel m: ^10 .combinations(3).race.grep({True}).say
01:26 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«()␤»
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01:31 Xliff .race, .hyper..... :3batch?!?
01:31 Xliff Aw man... so much to learn.
01:31 Xliff Please, please tell me there is not a .wtf!
01:31 Xliff I will die.
01:31 Xliff Laffing.
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01:41 ZoffixWin Xliff, :3batch is the same as :batch(3), which is same as batch => 3
01:42 ZoffixWin And .hyper: :3batch is same as .hyper( batch => 3 )
01:46 ZoffixWin Xliff, http://blogs.perl.org/users/zoffix_znet/2016/02/perl-6-shortcuts-part-1.html
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01:47 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
02:01 Xliff ZoffixWin, thanks!
02:01 AlexDaniel ZoffixWin: are there any other ways to write named arguments?
02:01 AlexDaniel besides these three
02:07 geekosaur :$foo is foo => $foo, iirc?
02:08 geekosaur ...or maybe that only works in signatures
02:09 skids Should work generally.
02:09 AlexDaniel m: my $foo = 42; :$foo .say # works everywhere
02:09 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«foo => 42␤»
02:09 skids note that twigils are not counted so :$*foo is foo => $*foo.
02:10 AlexDaniel m: :$*VM .say
02:10 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«VM => moar (2016.03.46.g.50.c.7.f.6.a)␤»
02:10 skids m: :%*ENV.say
02:10 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«ENV => HOME => /home/camelia, LANG => POSIX, LC_CTYPE => en_US.UTF-8, LOGNAME => camelia, MANPATH => /home/camelia/perl5/perlbrew/perls/perl-5.20.1/man:, ME => skids, PATH => /home/camelia/perl5/perlbrew/bin:/home/camelia/perl5/perlbrew/perls/perl-5.20.1/b…»
02:10 AlexDaniel g.50.c.7.f what?
02:11 Timbus its probs the git sha
02:11 AlexDaniel sure, but these dots?
02:11 Timbus number/letter comb?
02:11 AlexDaniel :/
02:12 AlexDaniel m: say %ENV<ME>, ‘, yes! It does not look right!’
02:12 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/YYahVhwyiQ␤Variable '%ENV' is not declared␤at /tmp/YYahVhwyiQ:1␤------> 3say 7⏏5%ENV<ME>, ‘, yes! It does not look right␤»
02:12 skids crowbarred into a Version probably.
02:12 geekosaur yeh. looks to me like it's treating git describe's result as a version string, which would break on letter/digit transitions
02:12 AlexDaniel m: say %*ENV<ME>, ‘, yes! It does not look right!’
02:12 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«AlexDaniel, yes! It does not look right!␤»
02:16 ZoffixWin All the aforementioned ways are the only ways I know of.
02:16 ZoffixWin Well, :foo<bar ber boor> is another one, if you wanna count it.
02:17 ZoffixWin m: say :foo<bar>, :mer<meow moo>;
02:17 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«Unexpected named parameter 'foo' passed␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/KPumJt_9Mb line 1␤␤»
02:17 ZoffixWin m: my %h = :foo<bar>, :mer<meow moo>; say %h;
02:17 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«foo => bar, mer => (meow moo)␤»
02:20 skids You could count |%nameds I guess
02:21 timotimo heyo ZoffixWin, how'd your talk go? :)
02:25 ZoffixWin timotimo, still writing it. It's next Wednesday. I recently realized I'll be the only speaker that day, so I'm kinda nervous that the success or failure of the meeting depends entirely on the quality of my presentation. :)
02:26 ZoffixWin But at least I'll have a bit of practice speaking to crowds: I'm also doing a presentation about company websites at work on Tuesday lol
02:28 timotimo oh!
02:29 timotimo OK, understood
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02:29 timotimo so you'll talk about things like how company websites really must offer a way to create an account, and share to myspace, orkut, geocities, and stumbleupon from every single page
02:29 timotimo and the 404 page has to be some vastly humourous thingie
02:45 kid511 In p6, how do I push a reference to a hash onto an array?  Once I've done that, what is the best way to view the contents of that array?
02:46 timotimo m: my @foo = <a b c>; my %ah = heyo => 1, bye => 2; @foo.push($%ah); say @foo.perl
02:46 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«["a", "b", "c", {:bye(2), :heyo(1)}]␤»
02:48 jdv79 how does one prevent flattening again?
02:48 jdv79 m: my @a; @a.push({foo => 1});@a.say # like here
02:48 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«[foo => 1]␤»
02:49 skids That's not flattened...
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02:50 jdv79 oh, gist's inaccuracy bites again
02:50 jdv79 m: my @a; @a.push({foo => 1});dd @a
02:50 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«Array @a = [{:foo(1)},]␤»
02:51 skids Erm I mean .push isn't SUPPOSED to flatten.
02:51 kmwallio if you call sort with a &by, does it store the &by for remaining sort calls?
02:51 jdv79 i really don't appreciate that
02:52 skids kmwallio: no, it shoudn't.
02:54 kmwallio I'm running into an issue where if I sort a hash and use a &by to sort the keys by the values, sorts on lists don't work
02:54 kmwallio currently I just specify a &by to get around it
02:55 kmwallio is the e-mail the only way to report possible bugs?
02:56 skids kmwallio: unless you have an RT account, yes.
02:56 skids Let's try to replicate it first though.
02:59 kid511 timotimo: Thanks!
03:00 skids m: my %h = :b,:a,:c; %h.sort({$^b.key cmp $^a.key}).say; (4,3,5,1).sort.say;
03:00 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«(c => True b => True a => True)␤(1 3 4 5)␤»
03:02 kmwallio hm...
03:03 kmwallio I just updated Perl6 and it now works...
03:03 kmwallio skids: thanks, I should update and check before messaging next time :S
03:04 skids np. glad it was that easy.
03:04 timotimo i wonder how old that rakudo was :)
03:05 kmwallio timotimo, not that old I think... at most 2 weeks or so...
03:05 timotimo oh, bedtime!
03:06 timotimo ttyl :)
03:06 kmwallio dream of butterflies?
03:06 timotimo perhaps :)
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04:11 kmwallio m: my @a = (5, 4, 3, 2, 1); say @a[0..3].sort;
04:11 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«(2 3 4 5)␤»
04:12 kmwallio m: my %h = :b,:a,:c; %h.sort({$^b.key cmp $^a.key}).say; my @a = (4,3,5,1); @a[0..2].sort.say;
04:12 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«(c => True b => True a => True)␤(3 4 5)␤»
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04:13 atweiden i have a program that produces two different results depending on whether it's run by perl6 or perl6-debug-m
04:13 atweiden perl6-debug-m produces Match object, perl6 produces Nil
04:13 atweiden perl6-j also produces a Match
04:14 atweiden in short, parsing this toml with Config::TOML http://ix.io/uZU
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04:37 skids Maybe the difference is --optimize?  I don't know if the debugger turn s it off or not.
04:45 atweiden --optimize makes no difference
04:48 jdv79 isn't there a terser way to write func(foo => $foo)?
04:50 Hotkeys func(:$foo)
04:50 Hotkeys if they're the same name
04:50 jdv79 i tried that.  gah.
04:50 jdv79 at least my reflex wasn't wrong
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04:53 jdv79 oh, just shitty coding
04:53 Hotkeys i'm sure your code is beautiful
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05:10 jdv79 m: { say $_ }␤for <a b c>; # why is this?
05:10 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/sVVtDf5jZp␤Missing block␤at /tmp/sVVtDf5jZp:2␤------> 3for <a b c>7⏏5; # why is this?␤    expecting any of:␤        block or pointy block␤»
05:14 jdv79 having to unspace that seems a bit ridiculous
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05:26 Hotkeys <jdv79> m: { say $_ }␤for <a b c>; # why is this?
05:26 Hotkeys why have a new line there
05:26 Hotkeys and if you do
05:27 Hotkeys why not have the for bit come first
05:27 jdv79 in situ its because of line length/code formatting
05:27 Hotkeys does camelia interpret '␤'?
05:27 jdv79 yes
05:27 Hotkeys neat
05:28 Hotkeys m: for <a b c>␤{ say $_ };
05:28 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«a␤b␤c␤»
05:28 Hotkeys why not this
05:28 jdv79 m: { say $_ }\␤for <a b c>; # to prove
05:28 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«a␤b␤c␤»
05:28 jdv79 because its too long
05:28 jdv79 its not a big deal.  just irritating.
05:29 Hotkeys it's just as long as yours though
05:29 Hotkeys just swapped around
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05:30 Timbus number/letter comb?
05:30 Timbus uh, whoops
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05:31 Timbus was going to say, isnt it because a } at the end of a line means something in perl6
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05:32 Timbus like it basically implies a semicolon
05:34 jdv79 yeah, i guess that's it.
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07:22 dalek ecosystem: 4c08c33 | kmwallio++ | META.list:
07:22 dalek ecosystem: Add Text::TFIdf
07:22 dalek ecosystem:
07:22 dalek ecosystem: See https://github.com/kmwallio/p6-Text-TFIdf
07:22 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/4c08c33f23
07:22 dalek ecosystem: 9470aac | azawawi++ | META.list:
07:22 dalek ecosystem: Merge pull request #179 from kmwallio/master
07:22 dalek ecosystem:
07:22 dalek ecosystem: Add Text::TFIdf
07:22 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/9470aac3a7
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08:40 masak good summertime, #perl6
08:40 timotimo hola masak
08:43 masak encantado, señor
08:43 timotimo enchanté
08:44 masak attendons -- ne nous passons juste de l'espagnol vers le français?
08:45 masak tutte queste lingue mi fanno un po 'di fame
08:45 timotimo u'u sai mi to'e certu lo fraso
08:45 masak what's that, Lojban?
08:45 timotimo it is
08:45 masak that breaks the pattern of Romance languages :P
08:45 timotimo "terribly sorry, i'm anti-proficient in french stuff"
08:46 masak I used Google Translate :P
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09:09 masak general question: is there an example somewhere of a Bailador POST doing a redirect back to some page?
09:10 masak I could figure it out the hard way, but I've had much luck so far just copying code from elsewhere.
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09:12 masak also, I note that I write *vastly* different commit messages when my goal is to push to heroku in order to try something
09:12 masak latest commit message: "wait, does this work?\n\nIt would simplify things quite a bit."
09:12 masak :)
09:12 timotimo :D
09:12 timotimo i tend to use --amend and force-pushes in such a situation :\
09:13 masak I could, yes
09:14 masak but I see no harm in this case in exposing my ineptitude and blundering
09:15 masak latest commit message: "...no, it didn't"
09:15 timotimo right
09:15 masak tadzik: re https://github.com/tadzik/Bailador/blob/a471c8efaaf0f39f1a3d6e315605842322f39abf/examples/echo.pl#L15-L17
09:15 masak tadzik: I was excited to find that example, because it looked as if I didn't have to parse out the POST form parameters on my own (as I do currently)
09:16 masak tadzik: but I get an empty hash when I do it that way (admittedly in my own code)
09:16 masak tadzik: are you able to confirm that `request.params` is an empty hash in a POST situation?
09:16 masak (a result either way would be interesting)
09:17 masak tadzik: if... if you'd prefer me not to bother you with Bailador things (because you've moved on to other things in life or whatever), then I will keep a respectful distance, and try to pester your issue tracker instead
09:18 * masak .oO( cool idea for a module: easily expose the examples/ scripts as tests )
09:23 masak jdv79: what Timbus said. http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2016-03-27#i_12244283
09:23 masak jdv79: I'm bitten by that rule sometimes too. not usually in the case you have, because I'd just drop the braces there.
09:23 masak jdv79: but for blocks and ==> pipes it's annoying
09:27 masak ok, I tried the obvious thing, and did a `header("Location", "/");` call in the POST handler where I want to redirect
09:27 masak it just emits a "/" into the resulting document
09:27 masak how should I have done it? :)
09:27 timotimo :o
09:29 masak if I were to theorize, I think the most likely thing that's happening is that some other part of Bailador is going "oh, status 200, here's your document"
09:29 masak but I don't know enough about the Bailador internals to continue from that hunch
09:31 sortiz \o #perl6
09:32 dalek DBIish: 0ada5e8 | (Salvador Ortiz)++ | lib/DBDish/StatementHandle.pm6:
09:32 dalek DBIish: Changed $sth!done-execute signature.
09:32 dalek DBIish:
09:32 dalek DBIish: Now expect as second argument the number of fields, and assume that
09:32 dalek DBIish: 0 means non SELECT.
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09:35 * sortiz poor dalek ;)
09:37 RabidGravy masak, looking at the code it should be something like "status 302; header 'Location', '/';" etc
09:37 masak RabidGravy: thank you. trying that.
09:38 masak is it always 302 (and not 301) for POST-related redirects?
09:38 RabidGravy dunno, I always have to look it up ;-)
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09:42 masak RabidGravy: 302 worked! thank you!
09:43 RabidGravy wahay!
09:47 masak next up: trying to plug in a database
09:48 masak pnu: are you there? I'm curious how one achieves database persistence across deploys.
09:48 masak this feels like such a common question that I'm pretty sure there's a very standard answer
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09:50 RabidGravy "database persistence" ?  You want to have the same data to start with on each deploy?
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09:50 masak yes.
09:50 masak I want the database to survive a deploy.
09:51 masak actually, I think I'm interested in general in how to manage a database "in parallel" with a heroku instance.
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09:53 grondilu m: our @ = 1 xx *;
09:53 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/TuvhBrXySR␤Cannot have an anonymous 'our'-scoped variable␤at /tmp/TuvhBrXySR:1␤------> 3our @7⏏5 = 1 xx *;␤    expecting any of:␤        constraint␤»
09:53 Timbus google says you use heroku-postgres
09:53 grondilu m: package { our @ = 1 xx * }
09:53 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/Q0ZPL78dbG␤Cannot have an anonymous 'our'-scoped variable␤at /tmp/Q0ZPL78dbG:1␤------> 3package { our @7⏏5 = 1 xx * }␤    expecting any of:␤        constraint␤»
09:53 RabidGravy don't really understand the heroku lifecycle
09:53 grondilu m: our @a = 1 xx *;
09:53 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: ( no output )
09:53 grondilu m: our @a of Int = 1 xx *;
09:53 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/KGvl3y5Ss4␤Cannot put a type constraint on an 'our'-scoped variable␤at /tmp/KGvl3y5Ss4:1␤------> 3our @a of Int7⏏5 = 1 xx *;␤    expecting any of:␤        constraint␤»
09:53 grondilu why cab't "our" variables be constrained?
09:54 grondilu *can't
09:55 RabidGravy someone did explain to me once but I  can't remember the answer
10:01 RabidGravy why can't I have "orange" and "grey" in ANSI terminal colours? BOO
10:02 timotimo you can
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10:02 timotimo some terminal emulators support full 24bit RGB
10:02 timotimo Konsole for example
10:02 timotimo and are you sure 256 colors aren't yet enough for you?
10:08 masak Timbus: thanks
10:08 masak Timbus: that's consistent with what I see here: https://github.com/perl6/cpandatesters.perl6.org/blob/master/app.pl
10:09 RabidGravy timotimo, er, there are only 8 ANSI "color codes"
10:09 timotimo .tell FROGGS we should put our heads together and come up with a good solution for cpandatesters updates
10:09 yoleaux timotimo: I'll pass your message to FROGGS.
10:10 timotimo RabidGravy: well, if you're limiting yourself to what the 50 year old terminals supported, then yeah
10:10 timotimo otherwise you usually have a minimum of 88 colors, usually 256
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10:37 Begi « C'est vraiment du bon boulot pour un boutonneux. :) »
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10:43 Woodi_ Happy Holidays :)
10:44 Woodi_ I just watched presentation of Red language and they have RedSystem which looks totally like NQP in asm :)
10:45 Woodi_ and it is quite fast: 4 x C speed for development version...
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10:56 dalek DBIish: 940848d | (Salvador Ortiz)++ | .travis.yml:
10:56 dalek DBIish: travis-ci: separate installdeps and install
10:56 dalek DBIish: review: https://github.com/perl6/DBIish/commit/940848dab7
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11:11 dalek DBIish: a0e0e48 | (Salvador Ortiz)++ | .travis.yml:
11:11 dalek DBIish: travis-ci: fix a typo
11:11 dalek DBIish: review: https://github.com/perl6/DBIish/commit/a0e0e48b9d
11:17 tadzik masak: I don't mind being bothered, by I totally don't remember what most of the bailador things do :)
11:17 tadzik so I may not be very helpful
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11:17 tadzik I'll also happily welcome suggestions or changes regarding both code or its documentation
11:17 tadzik since it's clearly quite lacking
11:18 tadzik masak: code clearly indicates that it should work, I wonder if it did at time of being commited
11:20 Begi tadzik : I will try to create the repository for the bailador-website in the day ( https://github.com/tadzik/Bailador/issues/45 )
11:22 tadzik Begi: awesome!
11:23 tadzik it'll also be a bit of a stress test
11:23 tadzik or a regular test, which we clearly need too :)
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11:27 Begi tadzik (or someone else) : have you alreadt made benchmarks on Bailador ?
11:27 Begi it'll be interesting
11:29 DrForr I need to poke at benchmarking, siege(1) revealed a problem somewhere.
11:34 masak Begi: is «boutonneux» something like a pimply teenager, or a millennial, or a script kiddie? :)
11:36 Begi masak : yes, that's it ! and sorry, wrong channel c:
11:36 * masak .oO( knowing it write on the right channel is clearly a job for the pimply-faced ) :P
11:36 masak to*
11:47 masak tadzik: right now after using Bailador a bit, I feel like there's one or two issues I could submit
11:47 masak but I'm not sure I have the tuits -- have to context-switch away from Perl 6 for a bit :/
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12:10 * sortiz glad that DBIish's tests systematically run 10% faster on latest vs 2016.01 in travis-ci
12:11 masak \o/
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12:22 tadzik Begi: I did, but that was ages ago :)
12:23 tadzik I think I can do some as a followup for my GPW talk, I already did some measurements but they were quite bad so I didn't include them in the talk :P
12:23 tadzik the overhead of calling Dancer from Perl 6 and back a couple of times was quite huge
12:24 tadzik pure-perl6 thing may be faster in some cases
12:26 Begi I think for now we have a lack of perfs
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12:53 Begi tadzik : empty for now, WIP : https://github.com/Emeric54/bailador-website
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14:12 masak the stunning similarities between p5:p6 and ng1:ng2 continue:
14:12 masak "In many ways, Angular 2 isn’t really a new framework at all, just a new implementation of the same one we’ve come to know and love." -- http://blog.ionic.io/angular-is-a-design-pattern/
14:13 * masak .oO( greetings from one Second System Syndrome to another )
14:15 Juerd I see Perl 6 as a sequel to Perl 5. It doesn't replace the older one, and you can enjoy the new one even if you haven't seen the old one. But if you know both, you can definitely tell that it's the same story.
14:15 Juerd And many will say that the first was better, even if that's not true.
14:18 masak I don't spend all that much time with people who insist the first was better ;)
14:19 masak (though I do appreciate that they do exist here and there)
14:19 Ven many people will say the migration was poorly handled :P
14:20 masak migration? oh shucks, I knew we had forgotten something!
14:20 masak :P
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14:21 Juerd Ven: It's a subtle balance between proper migration and preventing spoilers.
14:21 ufobat hey perl6
14:21 Juerd Hey ufobat
14:21 masak ufobat! greetings!
14:21 masak m: say "Perl 6 says hi, too :)"
14:21 camelia rakudo-moar 47d21b: OUTPUT«Perl 6 says hi, too :)␤»
14:22 Ven Juerd: I'd argue "lol, it's now all deprecated, rewrite all your code because we're not gonna provide a migration path" is not anything near "subtle"
14:23 Woodi_ Juerd: nicely said :)  But v5 vs v6 is so funny or facepalmy topic... Just imagine Mr. Wright was denied to work on Modula, Modula2 then Oberon... And Wiki says Modula-3 was influential in creating languages like Java and Python and C# ;)
14:23 masak what's all this obsession with rewriting code?
14:23 masak code that delivers value, that took person-years or person-decades to get into that shape...
14:24 Juerd Ven: Migrating from Perl 5 to Perl 6 is not much unlike migrating from Python to Ruby.
14:24 ufobat i've got a question (again) regarding the Test Module. if i do a use-ok("My::Grammar") it successes but then i need to load the module anyways.. *confused* otherwise i get a ok 1 - The module can be use-d ok Could not find symbol '&Grammar'
14:24 Juerd Ven: It's a different languge, even though many of the constructs are available in both, and your program will get slower.
14:24 Ven Juerd: i have no idea what you're answering here
14:24 masak ufobat: right.
14:24 Juerd Ven: The last thing you said.
14:24 masak ufobat: `use-ok` doesn't actually `use` the module into your current program.
14:24 ufobat what am i doing wrong? it used to be different in the perl5 require test
14:24 Ven Juerd: I still don't understand how it's related to my point
14:24 masak ufobat: I'm not sure it *can*.
14:25 masak (unless it's a macro or something)
14:25 ufobat but wouldn't use module break before use-ok() would fail or succeed?
14:25 Juerd Ven: Perl 6 does not deprecate Perl 5.
14:26 Ven Juerd: but angular 2 deprecates angular 1
14:26 Ven and I still don't understand your point
14:26 Juerd Ven: I wasn't talking about Angular anymore.
14:26 ufobat i am just wondering how to write a proper test case
14:26 masak ufobat: it is a good question. I haven't thought of that.
14:26 Ven okay
14:27 masak ufobat: I'm not advocating anything, but the reason I don't run into this is that I don't use `use-ok` :)
14:27 masak ufobat: I think it's a bit silly. I just use the module, and if the test file fails (dies) because the module can't be used, I know something needs to be fixed.
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14:27 masak I think there might have been a use case for `use-ok` in p5, but I don't see one in p6, to be honest
14:28 masak someone might know of a use case, though. I don't.
14:28 Juerd I can see how someone can interpret that as advocating something ;)
14:28 Woodi_ ufobat: I think use-ok is in new scope, scope ends and use disappear. but if you got OK then you just use it again :)
14:31 ufobat i am not sure but that would mean that the "use my::Grammar" must not be done at compile time. I think thats when use is executed.
14:31 ufobat i think i could live with a dying testcase ;-)
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15:03 sortiz In fact 'use-ok' should be named 'need-ok', 'cus the module is loaded, but the 'import' part is done in another context.
15:03 RabidGravy I like to (possibly superstitiously) have a test file with just use-ok in it to catch any weird dependency issues
15:04 RabidGravy and that it doesn't import the symbols helps that as it shows where a module may be using a symbol that it got by "accident" in another context
15:05 ufobat i just uploaded my first p6 module to github. I am pretty much a newbie so any comment on it would be appreciated. https://github.com/ufobat/p6-time-crontab
15:06 RabidGravy y'know that I had already implemented 90% of that in https://github.com/jonathanstowe/Chronic? ;-)
15:07 RabidGravy but the more the merrier
15:08 ufobat :D
15:12 FROGGS o/
15:12 yoleaux 10:09Z <timotimo> FROGGS: we should put our heads together and come up with a good solution for cpandatesters updates
15:12 DrForr Damn. Now I have to write Acme::Bluntman.
15:12 FROGGS timotimo: aye
15:13 ufobat I wrote a piece of software that could parse crontab-like strings and check if it must be executed now or calculate when it actually needs to be executed. your code goes even further, you can really do stuff ;) that was never in my scope
15:14 RabidGravy yeah, I just added the 'cron-like' expressions to keep the unix-beards happy ;-)
15:16 ufobat this was in perl5 though. so i thought to myself this would be a good exercise
15:16 ufobat ha :D
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15:43 DrForr Hurr. Crust doesn't respond well to siege. The Crust side responds to the initial connection, nothing else.
15:43 dalek ecosystem: 38ea17b | jnthn++ | META.list:
15:43 dalek ecosystem: Add Docker::File.
15:43 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/38ea17b077
15:43 jnthn Finally got that one done :)
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15:53 ZoffixWin What's the default precedence level in custom-defined operators?
15:54 jnthn ZoffixWin: Depends on the fixity
15:54 ZoffixWin What is that?
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15:54 ZoffixWin Ah, the prefix/infix/postfix
15:54 jnthn Right
15:54 ZoffixWin Thanks.
15:55 jnthn %additive for infix, %symbolic_unary for prefix, %autoincrement for postfix
15:55 khw joined #perl6
15:55 jnthn So same as infix:<+>, prefix:<+>, and postfix:<++>
15:55 ZoffixWin Thanks
15:56 jnthn .oO( "If you're nonplussed about your precedence level, Perl 6 will be plussed for you..." :P )
15:56 ZoffixWin :D
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16:00 * pmurias feels old using angular1 when it was still completely bug-ridden and now it's being deprecated
16:04 jnthn That's not age, that's just JavaScript's breakneck pace :P
16:06 * jnthn got sucked into doing a little client-side JS recently, and ended up using React/Redux
16:06 jnthn Frontend dev is still not my cup of tea, but at least this lets me FP it :P
16:07 _nadim joined #perl6
16:08 jnthn Then I thought "oh, maybe writing a little async backend code in node.js won't be so bad" and a few hours later I was like "aarrgh...where's my await?!" and was re-writing the thing in C# :P
16:12 DrForr jnthn: 'neck' there is a bit redundant :)
16:12 RabidGravy I wrote a little AMQP <-> websockets <-> REST thing with node.js a year or so ago, I quite liked it
16:17 RabidGravy is there any prior art in the ecosystem for arbitrary sprintf like formats? I mean it's not particularly difficult but don't want to reinvent if not necessary
16:19 RabidGravy otherwise I go with "$str.subst(/'%'(<{%expressions.keys}>)/, -> $/ { %expressions{~$0}.() }, :g);"
16:20 jnthn To be fair, the fact the team I was working with had some C# experienced folks and little collective node.js experience was a much bigger factor than me missing my async creature comforts. :)
16:21 jnthn (So node.js had to wow me quite a bit for me to feel like suggesting we try it out for some service or other...)
16:22 jnthn RabidGravy: I don't recall seeing anything like that
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16:24 RabidGravy it's just for a simple dispatcher for Lumberjack before I think of a better one, so just date, pid, program etc
16:24 RabidGravy It's only kind to provide at least one stock dispatcher after all ;-)
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16:31 masak RabidGravy: all I can say is, I've never used `use-ok`, not even in a separate file, and I don't feel that *not* getting the `use` error separately has in any way detracted from the testing experience.
16:31 masak in fact, the usual reason I get `use` errors in the first place is because I forgot to `export PERL6LIB=lib` :)
16:32 masak and that's easily fixed, no matter whether I have a separate test file with `use-ok` or not
16:32 domidumont joined #perl6
16:33 RabidGravy masak, your tests, your choice ;-)  I'm certainly not advocating that anyone other than myself should do it
16:34 masak yes, and your-tests-your-choice too, of course
16:34 masak but I can confirm your conjecture that such a test file does seem like superstition, at least from my point of view :)
16:35 masak jnthn: some future version of EcmaScript will get async and await. it's in the works.
16:35 masak jnthn: and due to the nature of compile-to-JS languages... there are ways to have it today. :)
16:36 vendethiel joined #perl6
16:37 RabidGravy I think, for me, it goes back to testing very large programs using moose where it was easy to miss circular dependencies at a distance (e.g. where A uses B uses C uses D uses A) and things would stop loading under sertain circumstances
16:37 moritz today I listedn to a podcast about http://transcrypt.org/
16:38 moritz it's a python-to-js compiler
16:38 moritz with the interesting concept that you can use pragmas to specify how pythonic you want it it to be
16:38 wamba joined #perl6
16:39 moritz so for example bool([]) in python is False, and in JS, it's true
16:39 moritz and to save the overhead of wrapping every boolean conversion, the default is JS semantics, but you can switch to python semantics if you really want to
16:40 masak RabidGravy: I was going to say that "we don't allow that kind of circular dependencies to happen in Perl 6"
16:40 dvinciguerra joined #perl6
16:40 masak RabidGravy: ...but then I tried it, and it puts Rakudo in an infinite loop :(
16:40 masak just A.pm containing `use B;` and vice versa triggers it
16:40 masak is that by spec?
16:40 masak does the spec have an opinion?
16:41 * masak submits rakudobug
16:41 masak if nothing else, it's a crappy default
16:41 moritz masak: there's a rakudobug open already
16:41 masak oh, ok
16:41 * masak stands down
16:41 masak if I find it, I can add this discussion
16:42 masak ah, https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=126688
16:42 masak also https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=127487
16:42 masak that latter one is probably a dupe of the former
16:42 masak anyone mind if I merge them?
16:43 RabidGravy I was going to suggest that
16:44 musiKk_ joined #perl6
16:44 masak done.
16:44 pmurias moritz: if the default is not fully pythonic can it handle existing libraries?
16:45 pmurias moritz: or is it an almost python sort of thing?
16:49 moritz pmurias: an almost python
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16:50 ZoffixWin There's no way to redefine already-existing operators, like change + to do - instead?
16:51 masak ZoffixWin: of course you can.
16:51 moritz within a lexical scope, you can shadow an operation
16:51 masak m: sub infix:<+>($l, $r) { $l - $r }; say 5 + 2
16:51 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«3␤»
16:52 moritz m: { sub infix:<+>($, $) { 42 }; say 1 + 2; }; say 1 + 2
16:52 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«42␤3␤»
16:52 ZoffixWin :o
16:52 ZoffixWin I recall this wasn't working several months go. Awesome!
16:52 masak it's been working for a good while
16:52 masak definitely more than months
16:52 pmurias moritz: Implementing an almost version of a language allows you achieve a lot of things much more easily
16:52 moritz probably for several years
16:52 moritz pmurias: I know
16:52 ZoffixWin Hm. I remember getting "ambiguity" error. Maybe I was doing something wrong.
16:53 ZoffixWin Ahhh
16:53 ZoffixWin m: multi infix:<+> (Int $x, Int $y ) { $x - $y }; say 2 + 5;
16:53 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«Ambiguous call to 'infix:<+>'; these signatures all match:␤:(Int:D \a, Int:D \b --> Int:D)␤:(Int $x, Int $y)␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/JRQHy4hf0F line 1␤␤»
16:53 moritz pmurias: which is why I find the concept interesting to use pragmas to control how almost it is
16:53 masak heads up, though. because operators are functions and functions can be invoked-before-declaration, an operator can change semantics before its overriding declaration
16:53 masak m: { say 1 + 2; sub infix:<+>($, $) { 42 } }; say 1 + 2
16:53 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«42␤3␤»
16:53 masak that's a bit unexpected (though consistent)
16:53 masak caught me off guard when I was implementing 007 :)
16:53 moritz ZoffixWin: with multi you're adding a multi candidate to an existing multi
16:54 ZoffixWin moritz, thanks. I see why I was having trouble before.
16:54 moritz ZoffixWin: if you leave out the multi, you are shadowing it instead
16:54 masak what moritz said. `multi` keeps building on top of the built-in (with the possibility of multi conflicts)
16:54 pmurias moritz: for rakudo-js by plan to allow cheating for performance is to add a 'js' native type
16:55 timotimo the thing is when you redeclare an operator lexically, language features that do stuff for you will not pick up the extra stuff
16:55 masak whereas `sub` basically installs a new thing in your scope, saying "this is how it is now"
16:55 masak timotimo: thankfully.
16:55 timotimo well, we're still hoping to be able to make something work in that respect to let a user's operators be used by things
16:56 bjz joined #perl6
16:56 masak I'm pretty impressed this works lexically :)
16:56 masak m: { sub infix:<o>($l, $r) { $l + $r }; say [o] 1, 2, 3, 4 }; say (&sin o &abs)(-2)
16:56 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«10␤0.909297426825682␤»
16:56 masak m: { sub infix:<o>($l, $r) { $l + $r }; say [o] 1, 2, 3, 4 }; say ([o] &sin, &abs)(-2)
16:56 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«10␤0.909297426825682␤»
17:06 MadcapJake is there a module generator script? Like interactive script for generating folders, META6.json, .gitignore, etc.
17:07 RabidGravy I think sergot made one
17:08 timotimo mi6 isn't interactive, right?
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17:10 MadcapJake I see sergot has bamboo (which is neat but I thought dependencies couldn't be installed locally to a project?) but it's more about dependencies than scaffolding a module
17:11 MadcapJake mi6 looks closer still but is more for after you've finished and want to write a readme
17:11 timotimo mhh
17:11 timotimo i thought mi6 was a full lifecycle management for module authors
17:11 timotimo there's Module::Starter, isn't there?
17:12 MadcapJake timotimo: Module::Minter this looks to be what I'm looking for thanks!
17:12 MadcapJake (not interactive though)
17:12 timotimo ah, ok
17:13 MadcapJake Module::Minter says module names must be alphanumeric, is that true?
17:13 RabidGravy I just use a bunch of individual scripts to generate stub module, stub tests, stub meta
17:13 timotimo no, that's not true
17:14 RabidGravy they have to be valid perl identifiers
17:14 timotimo oh, sorry, my head was at "alphanumeric == a-zA-Z0-9"
17:14 timotimo but we support the "letter" stuff from unicode
17:14 Success joined #perl6
17:15 MadcapJake but can't a module also be named 💩?
17:15 MadcapJake I thought that was the whole point of the CUR effort
17:15 timotimo .u
17:15 yoleaux Search for a Unicode character by codepoint, name, or raw character
17:15 timotimo i don't see anything there
17:16 timotimo oh, it's the pile of poo
17:16 MadcapJake weird, my irc client turns unicode into colored emoji, but I thought it'd at least send the unicode version :(
17:16 dvinciguerra joined #perl6
17:16 Success MadcapJake, what client do you have?
17:17 MadcapJake IRCCloud, it's an IRC-based response to Slack :)
17:17 RabidGravy yeah, I can't seem to create a class called <pile-of-poo-character> but that might be something else
17:18 ugexe module minter doesnt even mint modules, it mints distributions
17:19 ugexe being interactive might end up cumbersome to the user... "Ok what do you want to name your distribution? do you want a module named that too? ok is it a module, package, or class? " etc (related to the number of ways to do anything)
17:19 MadcapJake On Gnome, I created an epiphany web app for IRCCloud and changed the theme to dark (in client and via GTK_THEME) and it looks like a regular application xD
17:19 timotimo i think we can only have operators and terms made out of emoji
17:19 MadcapJake ugexe: it says that in the description but then read the rest of the readme and it's just creating modules
17:19 timotimo which is sad, because some other languages (swift or something?) allow emoji as variable names
17:20 MadcapJake but wasn't CUR about allowing modules be unicode? So that other language users could just naturally write modules like the rest of us
17:20 ugexe plus you can have multiple namespaces in a single file
17:21 MadcapJake language as in Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc.
17:22 timotimo yeah, you can try CKJ characters. they differ very strongly from emoji, though
17:22 MadcapJake ugexe: well they are both unicode, how could you have one without the other?
17:22 timotimo just "you can use unicode as module names" doesn't make much sense, since \a, the backspace character, newline, space, page-feed, ... those are all also unicode
17:22 MadcapJake meant to mention timotimo  :P
17:23 MadcapJake timotimo: not control characters obviously
17:23 timotimo also not emoji.
17:23 MadcapJake why? :P
17:23 MadcapJake I specifically remember a pile of poo mentioned in regards to CUR and the mangled file/folder names
17:23 RabidGravy and any character that might be reserved for something else ... and ...
17:23 timotimo well, we're currently not allowing emoji.
17:24 timotimo i'm having difficulty finding out the category emoji are put into
17:24 timotimo we probably want to explicitly allow emoji in addition to regular letters
17:24 RabidGravy the first time I see an "emoji" variable name I am going to burn my computer
17:24 MadcapJake RabidGravy: xD
17:24 MadcapJake I will dance with glee
17:25 ugexe half of my throw away variables are named $shit and $shittttt anyway
17:25 masak ugexe: I don't remember when I stopped doing that
17:26 masak I don't mean bad words as variable names. I mean not taking the opportunity to properly name a variable
17:26 masak wow, that sounds like elitism. :)
17:26 masak but somewhere along the road I stopped viewing it as a chore, and started seeing it as an opportunity
17:27 masak it's a slot where you put something to make your program clearer and more intentful
17:27 timotimo m: say uniprop("a")
17:27 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«Ll␤»
17:27 timotimo ^- could you please put an emoji in there?
17:27 timotimo m: say uniprop("☺")
17:27 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«So␤»
17:27 timotimo is that "an emoji"?
17:27 timotimo m: say uniprop("☺", "Emoji")
17:27 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«0␤»
17:27 ugexe its its not throw away code then sure. if its throw away code its a bunch of $shitt and $fuckmes
17:27 timotimo m: say uniprop("☺", "Emoji_Presentation")
17:27 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«0␤»
17:28 masak ugexe: are you by any chance Russian?
17:28 timotimo The following four binary character properties are available for emoji characters. These are not formally part of the Unicode Character Database (UCD) as of Unicode 8.0, but share the same namespace and structure.
17:28 timotimo ^- that'd answer why we wouldn't have "Emoji" in there. but do we perhaps want that?
17:29 ugexe masak: nah, american
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17:29 MadcapJake timotimo: nice, glad to see there's uniformity in Unicode ;)
17:30 timotimo LOL as if.
17:30 MadcapJake total sarcasm there
17:30 timotimo https://twitter.com/FakeUnicode :)
17:30 masak ugexe: I confess to being a lot less careful when it's just private code. but only to the point of, let's say, one-letter names, not to the point of random unrelated words :)
17:31 timotimo Let's have an egg hunt for next year. Tweet U+1F95A 'EGG' (Unicode 9.0) and then try to find them all in a year, when they are supported. 🥚
17:32 MadcapJake lol
17:32 timotimo ^- from that twitter account
17:33 MadcapJake ok so maybe I need to write an interactive module scaffolder (ADHD to the rescue!)
17:34 tadzik I wouldn't mind an existence of Sane Unicode subset, which only includes actual letters
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17:35 MadcapJake just something simple: create t folder with some test files (one file for each provides entry with some basic test file stuff in there), create lib folders and one file for each provides entry, the META6.json with details pulled from prompts, a basic gitignore, and anything else?
17:38 tadzik hm, I have my https://github.com/tadzik/Module-Starter
17:38 tadzik doesn't quite conform to what the module ecosystem is today though :)
17:39 MadcapJake nice! I looked on modules.perl6.org and that wasn't on there
17:39 tadzik yeah, I was surprised too :P It has a META.info, must've gotten removed
17:39 tadzik feel free to hijack that namespace :)
17:41 MadcapJake I could submit some PRs to your Module::Starter
17:41 RabidGravy MadcapJake, somewhere down the back of the sofa I have something that takes a UML/XMI file and turns it into a complete bunch of class files, stub tests and everything
17:42 MadcapJake nice!
17:42 RabidGravy I ought to make it fit for public consumption at some point
17:43 MadcapJake yeah that'd be sweet
17:43 RabidGravy do people even use UML tools like umbrello any more
17:43 MadcapJake I've only ever used things like Dia to make UML-like stuff
17:43 RabidGravy I know it's not in keeping with the hipster new order zeitgeist but hey
17:44 MadcapJake RabidGravy: flow-based programming is still just over the horizon http://noflojs.org/
17:46 MadcapJake tadzik: would you prefer PRs or just starting from a fork? (wrt Module::Starter)
17:46 RabidGravy It feels like I've been making software so long that I have seen so many "programming paradigms that are going to save us all" that I've lost count
17:46 Woodi_ jnthn: about JS -> C# switch: how throw-away-prototyping functionalities influenced/improved later C# implementation ? I specially wonder how good such "prototype" can be for replacing design papers :)
17:46 * Woodi_ Woodi
17:47 Woodi better... ;)
17:47 MadcapJake RabidGravy: yeah I've always been interested in FBP but it's never felt like it's really become viable (there was a cool FBP video on HackerNews last week or so)
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17:59 timotimo http://www.unicode.org/Public/emoji/2.0//emoji-data.txt  -  i don't understand why it seems to be separate from the regular unicode stuff
18:01 flaviusb joined #perl6
18:01 timotimo but we may want to include this in our own unicode db for moarvm somehow
18:05 * RabidGravy does his weekly "reassure a DJ that his show is streaming fine however it might sound where they are"
18:06 pmurias MadcapJake: using a touch based interface to create programs doesn't seem very fun :/
18:06 RabidGravy http://stream.futuremusic.fm:8000/mp3 if anyone is curious
18:08 timotimo m: say "👧".graphs; say "👦🏻".graphs
18:08 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«Method 'graphs' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/jFfAe6hM3_ line 1␤␤»
18:08 timotimo er
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18:09 timotimo m: say "👧".chars; say "👦🏻".chars
18:09 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«1␤2␤»
18:09 timotimo ^- unicode bug; we shouldn't claim unicode 8 support until those both give 1.
18:13 MadcapJake RabidGravy: sounds good on my end!
18:13 MadcapJake pmurias: yeah I wish it would be, but it just never is :P
18:13 RabidGravy noxgenus, mad dutch crew :)
18:17 atweiden joined #perl6
18:17 MadcapJake m: 1.1e-10.base(10).say # wish this would go to the closest non-zero digit rather than just 8 for Nums
18:17 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«0.00000000␤»
18:18 MadcapJake is there another way to do that?
18:18 timotimo m: 1.1e-10.fmt("%d").say
18:18 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«0␤»
18:18 timotimo m: 1.1e-10.fmt("%f").say
18:18 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«0.000000␤»
18:18 timotimo that gives even fewer digits
18:18 timotimo m: 1.1e-10.fmt("%99f").say
18:18 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«                                                                                           0.000000␤»
18:18 timotimo m)
18:18 timotimo wtf even
18:19 MadcapJake lol
18:19 domidumont joined #perl6
18:21 MadcapJake timotimo: perhaps 99 is being interpreted as LHS precision
18:21 timotimo m: 1.1e-10.fmt("%10f").say
18:21 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«  0.000000␤»
18:21 timotimo m: 1.1e-10.fmt("%4f").say
18:21 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«0.000000␤»
18:21 timotimo fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu~
18:22 MadcapJake m: 1.1e10.fmt("%4f").say
18:22 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«11000000000.000000␤»
18:22 RabidGravy m: 1.1e-10.fmt("%10.10f").say
18:22 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«0.0000000001␤»
18:22 MadcapJake boom
18:23 MadcapJake m: 1.1e-10.fmt("%.10f").say
18:23 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«0.0000000001␤»
18:23 timotimo ah
18:23 timotimo that's a bit better
18:23 MadcapJake still wish there was a "chop to nearest non-zero" rather than this arbitrary precision in both fmt and base
18:24 jnthn Woodi: Unless there was a particular library I was wanting to use that was going to make things crazy easy, I'd probably not turn to C# for quick prototyping very often...especially not when it's stuff that isn't really needing libraries and I've got Perl 6 to hand. ;) C# *has* got a lot better over the years though...it's a much better language today than I ever imagined it becoming when I first saw 1.0. :)
18:24 domidumont joined #perl6
18:25 jnthn timotimo: On emoji things - they have at least folded the emoji grapheme boundary related things into the grapheme boundary annex in Unicode 9.
18:25 timotimo oh? i thought it was already in unicode 8
18:25 MadcapJake How would you find the nearest non-zero? Iteratively fmt, testing the last char? (only non-iterative approach I can think of is rounding to a specific digit and then fmt/base to that same digit but that means loss of data)
18:25 timotimo so we will get that, that's good
18:25 jnthn timotimo: No
18:26 jnthn Which is why we got RTs about NFG + emoji interaction
18:26 timotimo oh, ok
18:26 timotimo we could make a Unicode 8-errata1 supported moar :P
18:26 jnthn I'd rather wait it out until Unicode 9 lands to do anything abou tit.
18:27 timotimo that's fine with me
18:27 jnthn Otherwise we risk missing a detail or something.
18:27 jnthn Whereas if it's in annex 29 then it should be fairly easy to transliterate the chances into our code :)
18:27 jnthn *changes
18:28 MadcapJake can you pull the exponent out of a Num?
18:28 timotimo that's fair
18:28 dvinciguerra joined #perl6
18:28 timotimo MadcapJake: you can nativecast a Pointer to num to a Pointer to int and grab the lower n bits
18:28 jnthn It's possible that there's other places they've folded emoji stuff into the Unicode standard in 9.0. tbh, I mostly skimmed it from a "what's going to make work for me" point of view. ;)
18:28 Success joined #perl6
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18:29 MadcapJake timotimo: but is there a way to do « 1.1e-10.exp == -10 »
18:30 timotimo i just told you! :P
18:30 timotimo well, what you really want is logarithms
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18:34 MadcapJake timotimo: What I am trying to get is the value of e in a Num, I think you need that number to even do the logarithms
18:34 timotimo um, wat? :)
18:34 timotimo m: say log(1.1e-10)
18:34 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«-22.9305407501361␤»
18:34 timotimo ah, that's not the 1og10
18:34 timotimo m: say log10(1.1e-10)
18:34 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«-9.95860731484177␤»
18:34 timotimo m: say log10(1.0e-10)
18:34 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«-10␤»
18:34 timotimo m: say log10(1.0e99)
18:34 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«99␤»
18:35 timotimo you just have to round it properly
18:35 MadcapJake I don't want to round it though, I want to maintain accuracy
18:36 MadcapJake I could just round it to gather the e though
18:36 MadcapJake m: 1.1e-10.perl.split('e')[1].say # or this works :P
18:36 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«-10␤»
18:36 timotimo well, you did say you want the value after the e
18:36 timotimo the value after the e is always rounded with that representation of the num
18:36 timotimo so ... i really don't get wtf it is you want? :)
18:37 MadcapJake i want to be able to convert Nums to JSON-writable numbers without losing any precision
18:37 moritz m: say log(1.1e-10, 10)
18:37 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«-9.95860731484177␤»
18:37 timotimo i'm not sure how exactly json requires nums to be
18:37 MadcapJake +/-d+.d+
18:38 moritz iirc JSON::Tiny simply replaces e with d
18:38 timotimo ah, so just not scientific notation
18:38 MadcapJake wait just looked at the spec and it does support scientific notation
18:38 MadcapJake xD
18:39 MadcapJake written the same as Perl 6 actually
18:40 MadcapJake http://www.json.org/number.gif
18:40 MadcapJake ♥ json.org's graphs
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18:42 timotimo sqlite also has those <3
18:42 pmurias having a tool to build such graphs for Perl 6 grammars would be cool
18:43 tadzik MadcapJake: whatever you prefer, you be the boss of that :)
18:44 Fatalnix_ joined #perl6
18:45 Fatalnix_ Is it possible to write annotations for Perl6 on the JVM?
18:45 Fatalnix_ yet*
18:49 labster joined #perl6
18:49 MadcapJake pmurias: that'd be really slick
18:53 tmch joined #perl6
18:55 timotimo buh. something's wrong with the internet connection here :(
19:04 Fatalnix_ timotimo: fn gettin ddos'd btw
19:04 Fatalnix_ a bunch of servers were unresponsive half an hour ago at least
19:05 Fatalnix_ and then there was massive lag from every server I could connect from
19:05 Fatalnix_ so may not be you :)
19:07 yqt joined #perl6
19:08 timotimo fn?
19:08 Fatalnix_ freenode
19:08 timotimo oh
19:08 timotimo but irc was the most responsive part i could find :P
19:08 Fatalnix_ LOL
19:08 timotimo just web stuff didn't work
19:08 Fatalnix_ I see now
19:09 pmurias MadcapJake: there seem to be quite a few open source visualizers for regular regexes ;)
19:10 MadcapJake pmurias: how hard would it be to handle all the various P6 re stuff? xD
19:14 pmurias assuming we reused the existing Perl 6 grammar to parse not that hard to get a LTA version with basic stuff
19:14 jnthn Given it all reduces to few enough node types you can count them on your fingers, perhaps not too hard...
19:17 * pmurias should likely get some sleep and focus on getting nqp-js-on-js to pass the last remaining t/nqp/ test rather then invent exiting side-projects ;)
19:24 MadcapJake lol
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20:17 Coleoid joined #perl6
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21:02 verzit joined #perl6
21:02 Coleoid Hi, #perl6!
21:02 firstdayonthejob joined #perl6
21:03 Begi Hi, Coleoid ! :)
21:03 Coleoid I'm having trouble trying to get a grammar to end its statement when it sees a newline.
21:03 masak m: say "Hi, Coleoid! :)"
21:03 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«Hi, Coleoid! :)␤»
21:04 masak Coleoid: do you have a really small example of what's troubling you?
21:04 Coleoid https://nopaste.me/view/447d17f6
21:04 masak ugh... not really small ;)
21:04 masak (we tend to ask people to minimize for us, 'cus it benefits both us and them)
21:05 Coleoid No, true.  I can golf it for a bit and come back for round two.
21:05 masak that would be most kind.
21:06 masak thank you, and see you again soon :>
21:06 masak (if anyone wants to tackle the bigger example, that's fine too)
21:08 FROGGS m: https://gist.github.com/FROGGS/acffbcdec3956092e1db
21:08 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find Grammar::Tracer in:␤    /home/camelia/.perl6␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/site␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/vendor␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6␤    CompUnit::Reposit…»
21:08 FROGGS m: https://gist.github.com/FROGGS/acffbcdec3956092e1db
21:08 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«True␤「scenario: "Eat the ripe apples"␤spawn 7 ripe apples␤spawn 3 unripe apples␤pick apples  // should only pick ripe␤? verify 7 in basket␤eat 2␤? verify they were tasty␤? verify 5 in basket」␤ Scenario => 「scenario: "Eat the ripe ap…»
21:09 FROGGS Coleoid: looks like it parses, no?
21:10 Coleoid Yes.  It parses the two 'spawn' lines as a single statement, though.
21:10 dvinciguerra joined #perl6
21:18 FROGGS Coleoid: what if you try that: token Step { '?'? <.ws> <Symbol>+ % \h }
21:21 chris2 joined #perl6
21:26 Coleoid Trying that.
21:29 Coleoid FROGGS:  Works!  Many thanks!  I just need to understand the % now... the \h is "horizontal whitespace", right?
21:33 FROGGS Coleoid: aye
21:34 FROGGS % is, like the character shows "a thing separated by another thing"
21:34 FROGGS so it follows a * or a +
21:38 Begi1 joined #perl6
21:38 Hotkeys 'for example a+ % ',' will match a or a,a or a,a,a or so on, but it will not match a, or a,a,. To match those as well, you may use %% instead of %.'
21:38 TEttinger joined #perl6
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21:41 masak note that this makes % and %% quantifier *modifiers*
21:41 masak not altogether different from metaops
21:42 masak they were quite late additions to the regex syntax. for a long while, we liked to overload infix:<**> with both numeric repetition and repetition-by-separator (what's now *%)
21:43 masak m: say "1,2,3" ~~ /\d ** 3 % ","/
21:43 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«「1,2,3」␤»
21:44 masak I guess we couldn't do that (easily) before the separation :)
21:45 RabidGravy ZoffixWin, if you're about I just sent a tiny PR for IO::Middleman :)
21:46 petercommand joined #perl6
21:46 teatime I found those the other day.
21:46 teatime made me think the answer to my Q the other day was probably:  token TOP { <LINE> %% \v }
21:48 jnthn My weekly "what I got up to in Perl 6 this week" post: https://6guts.wordpress.com/2016/03/27/happy-heapster/
21:48 jnthn Fun one this time :)
21:50 jnthn Packed arrays, parallel processing, leak hunting, and a little complexity theory for good measure :P
21:50 masak teatime: that looks incomplete
21:50 sjn yay!
21:50 masak teatime: did you mean `<LINE>+ %% \v` (or `<LINE>+ %% \v`)?
21:51 masak jnthn++ # just on general principle; haven't read the post yet
21:51 masak actually, jnthn++ # for the bad pun in the URL :P
21:51 jnthn Couldn't resist :P
21:52 teatime masak: yes.  but both of your suggestions are the same?
21:53 masak oops
21:53 masak second one was meant to have a *
21:53 masak difference is whether you accept the empty string or not
21:53 masak just as usual with + and *
21:54 teatime will { <LINE>* %% \v } match forever
21:54 masak no
21:54 masak this is what I meant by % being a quantifier *modifier*
21:54 masak you still need the quantifier itself
21:54 masak that's the biggest difference between the old infix:<**> and the new postfix:<%>
21:55 diakopter heapster groan
21:56 masak puns are the lowest common demoninator, the level at which we all connect
21:56 diakopter I bought some heapster shoes last week
21:56 teatime I love this channel.  you guys are so friendly and accessible.
21:56 masak diakopter: then you too can walk the heap :P
21:56 masak teatime: <3
21:57 masak teatime: tell your friends! :D
21:58 masak jnthn++ # pressing 'y' on those Github links
22:00 masak jnthn: s/horrid slow/horridly slow/ ?
22:01 diakopter /hella slow/
22:01 diakopter it's the heapster way of speaking
22:01 masak jnthn: just so you know, that was one of the best posts in quite a while
22:02 masak I'm really eager to go look at the heap snapshot analyzer now
22:02 diakopter masak: you're a shared table
22:03 jnthn masak: "horrid slow" was a deliberate common-ism or whatever :)
22:03 * masak .oO( I was being ungrammatical on purpose! )
22:03 jnthn :D
22:03 masak ok, fine!
22:04 masak the Brit wins this time
22:04 jnthn :P
22:04 masak I wonder if "horrid slow" is an example of a well-recorded type of slang
22:04 masak kind of like "hella slow"
22:05 jnthn And "the roads are wicked slippy"
22:05 masak right
22:05 jnthn Though sadly it appears winter is over, so I have to wait another 8+ months for that again :P
22:06 masak http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=10848 :)
22:06 RabidGravy hahahaha, http://reuuid.org/
22:06 jnthn haha
22:07 masak RabidGravy: it's about time people came together and provided such a useful service
22:07 RabidGravy :)
22:08 labster joined #perl6
22:08 diakopter I just donated some 000000 ones
22:08 diakopter hopefully someone will be pleased with them
22:08 diakopter my hands are great RNGs
22:09 masak RabidGravy: our hearts and prayers go out to the person on StackOverflow who tried to iterate through all GUIDs
22:09 RabidGravy :-0
22:11 diakopter masak: well, sometimes you need to check them all
22:13 masak oh, found it: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1705008/simple-proof-that-guid-is-not-unique
22:14 diakopter yeah, proofs without evidence of computational requirements aren't too useful
22:14 masak "you must pay me $0.0001 per hour per CPU core you run it on" :D
22:14 perlawhirl joined #perl6
22:16 perlawhirl hi perlers
22:16 masak hi perlawhirl
22:16 perlawhirl i asked yesterday but got no solution, so perhaps this is a bug...
22:16 perlawhirl m: class Foo { method bar {%_<baz>??2!!1}; method qux {self.bar} };my $foo=Foo.new; say [$foo.bar(:baz),$foo.qux(:baz)];
22:16 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«[2 1]␤»
22:17 perlawhirl why is the lexical %_ not seen by bar when coming via qux?
22:17 masak m: say sprintf "Take %s for a %s", |<perl whirl>.roll(2) for ^3
22:17 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«Take whirl for a perl␤Take whirl for a whirl␤Take perl for a whirl␤»
22:17 masak :)
22:18 masak perlawhirl: ...because you're not passing it on...?
22:18 jnthn Would have to be self.bar(|%_) or so
22:18 masak m: class Foo { method bar {%_<baz>??2!!1}; method qux {self.bar(|%_)} };my $foo=Foo.new; say [$foo.bar(:baz),$foo.qux(:baz)]
22:18 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«[2 2]␤»
22:19 masak there ya go
22:19 perlawhirl thanks jnthn. i knew you would have the answer :D
22:19 jnthn masak++ did also :)
22:19 perlawhirl yes
22:20 perlawhirl masak++ jnthn++
22:21 perlawhirl but the only way i'd figured out was passing manually, ie %_<baz>??self.bar(:baz)!!self.bar
22:21 masak m: say sprintf "%sa%s++", |<perl whirl>.roll(2) for ^3
22:21 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«perlaperl++␤whirlawhirl++␤whirlawhirl++␤»
22:21 perlawhirl so when he said 'passing it on'... i knew there had to be a better way than what i was doing
22:23 masak it still bothers me sometimes that we didn't end up with the same symbol for slurping as for flattening
22:23 jnthn masak: We kinda did if you want the whole capture :)
22:23 masak people insist that there was a good reason for that... but languages like Python and JavaScript somehow managed to use the same symbol
22:24 jnthn sub foo(|c) { bar(|c) }
22:24 er2 joined #perl6
22:25 diakopter jnthn: surely all the integers are indexes/labels for objects while compiling?
22:25 masak jnthn: yeah, but...
22:26 jnthn diakopter: No, I suspect they're NFAs
22:26 diakopter oh
22:26 perlawhirl if i augment Any, is there a way to re-compose all the child classes? (without manually calling (Str,Int,List,etc...).map(*.^compose)
22:26 jnthn perlawhirl: No...though we do plan to fix that issue. :)
22:27 jnthn masak: Also, *@foo vs **@foo :)
22:27 masak jnthn: meh. is that even implemented yet?
22:28 TEttinger DID SOMEBODY SAY NFA??? I've been reading regex engine papers and my brain is about to explode
22:28 masak TEttinger: welcome to #perl6, where brains are constantly exploding
22:28 diakopter explode in this direction
22:29 * sjn goes looking for the brainwashing equipment again
22:29 TEttinger I'm trying to get a DFA engine (that somebody else wrote, it hasn't updated in 5 years so I can assume it won't break tomorrow unless I break it) to support capturing groups
22:29 FROGGS jnthn++
22:29 perlawhirl jnthn: thought so, though it's been unfixed for quite a while. maybe add a special variable that lists all the classes, as a stop-gap :D
22:31 * masak .oO( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1jf2hOkec4 )
22:32 RabidGravy there, coloured logging messages
22:34 RabidGravy of course the first bug report will be to "correct" my spelling of  colour
22:38 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
22:45 RabidGravy right, duncodin for the day
22:45 RabidGravy toodles
22:48 Ben_Goldberg joined #perl6
22:48 er2 I'm trying to get the AST of some perl6 code using THE grammar https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp but I'm having trouble with `use`ing the grammar. Here's what I have https://gist.github.com/er2/34cb1d4a7c342dcd59f5
22:49 Begi joined #perl6
22:49 er2 I'm not sure if my perl 6 install is messed up because panda didn't get installed when I compiled from source
22:52 Hotkeys er2: you mean when you compiled panda from source?
22:52 perlawhirl joined #perl6
22:53 er2 yes, after installing perl 6 per http://rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo/
22:56 er2 well I pulled panda from the git repo and ran bootstrap.pl. Not sure if that technically compiles it, but that's how I installed it.
22:57 er2 I should say I did the "manual installation" to get rakudo
22:59 masak er2: this might help: https://github.com/masak/007/blob/6baecb3f38f8b9bf91e6479999110f67f1ffdb13/t/integration/finishblock.t
23:00 masak er2: I think the simple reason `use Perl6::Grammar;` doesn't work is that the environment the compiler is running in is not the same as the envornment your program is running in
23:01 masak er2: but the code I linked to actually works, and actually gets the AST
23:03 er2 masak: thank you, I'll play around with that
23:04 masak er2: might also be good to know that we're aiming for something slightly less messy in the long run (which is why things are still in a branch)
23:05 timotimo jnthn: in your blerg perst, what is "static_framesdata"? :)
23:05 masak if you want to dream along with us, please enjoy https://gist.github.com/masak/3a018a8eeef9acbf397f and then https://gist.github.com/masak/ba06dbb58fc01228ef5e
23:11 jack_rabbit joined #perl6
23:16 er2 masak: where is qast-of coming from? I can't find it in the 007 repo.
23:20 vendethiel joined #perl6
23:21 masak er2: that's part of the dreaming, as in not-yet-reality
23:24 BenGoldberg_ joined #perl6
23:25 BenGoldberg_ m: my $x; $x ??= 1 :: 2; say $x;
23:25 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/ap_2moqHnK␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix = instead␤at /tmp/ap_2moqHnK:1␤------> 3my $x; $x ??=7⏏5 1 :: 2; say $x;␤»
23:25 er2 is there a way to get the qast from `perl6 --target=ast ...` before it gets printed out, or to parse the output from that
23:29 masak BenGoldberg_: you meant ??= !!
23:29 masak BenGoldberg_: (but ?? !! still doesn't ??= !!, sorry)
23:30 masak er2: I thought that's what I gave you
23:30 masak er2: check out $node.dump
23:30 BenGoldberg_ m: my $x; $x ??= 1 !! 2; say $x;
23:30 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/rmemVA6L27␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix = instead␤at /tmp/rmemVA6L27:1␤------> 3my $x; $x ??=7⏏5 1 !! 2; say $x;␤»
23:32 teatime BenGoldberg_: what is that supposed to do?
23:32 BenGoldberg_ m: my $x; $x = $x ?? 1 !! 2; say $x;
23:32 camelia rakudo-moar d0c675: OUTPUT«2␤»
23:33 BenGoldberg_ ^ that, but conceivable more optimized.
23:37 masak 'night, #perl6
23:37 jdv79 nite
23:40 ecocode` left #perl6
23:43 er2 masak: bingo! that's working splendidly. Thanks again

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