Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2016-05-23

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

| Channels | #perl6 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:11 ThisGeekChick left #perl6
00:15 llfourn .tell nine I've done some more investigation on RT #128156. Results on the ticket :)
00:15 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=128156
00:15 yoleaux llfourn: I'll pass your message to nine.
00:21 dalek perl6-examples: e3cea7e | raiph++ | categories/best-of-rosettacode/24-game.pl:
00:21 dalek perl6-examples: s/casting/coercion and removed old info
00:21 dalek perl6-examples: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6-examples/commit/e3cea7eafb
00:27 adu joined #perl6
00:28 dalek perl6-examples: eaab00f | raiph++ | categories/best-of-rosettacode/ackermann-function.pl:
00:28 dalek perl6-examples: Update doc links
00:28 dalek perl6-examples: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6-examples/commit/eaab00f361
00:38 pierre__ joined #perl6
01:06 stmuk joined #perl6
01:13 astj joined #perl6
01:16 cdg joined #perl6
01:28 Actualeyes joined #perl6
01:29 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
01:37 ssotka joined #perl6
01:49 finanalyst joined #perl6
01:50 pierre__ joined #perl6
01:54 molaf joined #perl6
02:03 dunkel joined #perl6
02:15 pierre__ joined #perl6
02:19 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
02:40 TreyHarr1 joined #perl6
02:51 pierre__ joined #perl6
02:53 gregf_ joined #perl6
02:54 noganex_ joined #perl6
03:05 skids joined #perl6
03:16 jack_rabbit joined #perl6
03:22 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
03:28 MasterDuke .tell AlexDaniel PR 775 addresses the first part of RT #128214 by failing when a path part doesn't exist, instead of continuing, but not resolving. the second part wasn't really a problem with resolve, you were just trying to '.dir' on a non-existent path
03:28 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=128214
03:28 yoleaux MasterDuke: I'll pass your message to AlexDaniel.
03:32 gregf_ joined #perl6
03:35 pierre_ joined #perl6
03:38 Xliff joined #perl6
03:38 Xliff \o
03:38 Xliff Anyone around?
03:38 * Xliff is now playing: Frederic Robinson - Walk The Distance feat. Vicky Harrison (Original Mix)
03:46 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
04:04 gregf_ joined #perl6
04:20 lizmat joined #perl6
04:32 huggable joined #perl6
04:36 jcallen joined #perl6
04:39 Xliff Methinks IO::Handle.slurp-rest on an 90M file might not be a good idea.
04:39 timotimo if you slurp it with :bin, it'll be less problematic
04:39 cpage_ joined #perl6
04:42 Cabanossi joined #perl6
04:42 Xliff Even though it is text?
04:43 timotimo well, there's multiple aspects to this
04:43 timotimo one, we normalize to NFG, which means combining characters will turn into sinlge graphemes
04:43 Xliff And the read never finished before I re-ran using :bin
04:43 timotimo when you spurt it back out to utf8, you might end up with different output
04:44 Xliff Oh, and YAMLish doesn't work on YAML output from a game I am playing. :(
04:44 timotimo the other thing is, we internally store all codepoints as 32bit integers, so if your text is almost exclusively what fits into ascii, it goes from 8 bits per character to 32bits per character
04:44 timotimo which is a big inflation
04:44 Xliff I may need to see why it is broken and submit a patch.
04:44 Xliff Ah. Yes, that is.
04:44 timotimo i didn't know YAMLish survives its own tests
04:45 Xliff But this is a lot of data. I really wish they would have continued to use SQLite exports.
04:45 Xliff LOL! I don't think it's configured.
04:45 timotimo as far as i know yamlish is b0rked. or perhaps i'm thinking of an older module and somebody else built a YAML parser/emitter in the mean time?
04:45 Xliff I may just need to get the MySQL dumps and make my own mapping files. *sigh*
04:46 timotimo in any case, you can still use a yaml module from perl or python with the Inline:: modules
04:46 Xliff No. That's the one. Honestly, I was optimistic and just installed it and ran tests.
04:46 Xliff OK. How do you use an installed Python module using Inline::Python? The docs don't say.
04:46 Xliff I looked at that, first.
04:47 Xliff The only thing I see is Inline::Python::run($script) .... which is bad on many fronts.
04:47 timotimo yeah, hmm.
04:48 timotimo https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/blob/master/t/call.t#L73 - there's also this kind of thing
04:48 Xliff Yeah. Parsing YAML or large JSON isn't going to work when all I need are ID to Name mappings.
04:49 Xliff Oh, I guess I could use import and run it that way.
04:49 Xliff Hmmm.... thanks!
04:50 lizmat good night, #perl6!
05:15 xiaomiao joined #perl6
05:16 Xliff timotimo: If I were making a module to connect to a game's API service, what would be a good namespace for it?
05:16 Xliff The game in question is Eve Online (http://www.eveonline.com/)
05:17 Xliff So Games::EveOnline::API? Just EveOnline::Api looks kinda naked.
05:17 llfourn EveOnline has an API?
05:26 finanalyst joined #perl6
05:39 pierre_ joined #perl6
05:50 domidumont joined #perl6
05:54 CIAvash joined #perl6
05:55 domidumont joined #perl6
05:59 pierre_ joined #perl6
06:10 sno joined #perl6
06:15 domidumont joined #perl6
06:28 firstdayonthejob joined #perl6
06:29 Xliff llfourn, yup!
06:29 Xliff http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/EVE_API_Guide
06:30 CIAvash joined #perl6
06:30 llfourn hmmm it doesn't look like it lets you control your character?
06:31 llfourn this is what I'm interested in wrt MMO APIs :(
06:38 wamba joined #perl6
06:41 Xliff No. That would be scripting, which they don't allow.
06:41 Xliff Weird. I can run a query via MySQL console and get lots of results, but when I run it through DBIish, I don't get anything.
06:43 Xliff DUH! Forgot to .execute()
06:46 rurban joined #perl6
06:46 pierre_ joined #perl6
06:49 kaos01 joined #perl6
06:50 gregf_ joined #perl6
06:53 jjido joined #perl6
06:59 CIAvash Xliff: I think web services should use "WebService", it probably should be WebService::EveOnline
06:59 Xliff CIAvash, good point. Thanks! I had actually started with Net::
07:00 Xliff But I like WebService better.
07:01 Actualeyes joined #perl6
07:05 mr-foobar joined #perl6
07:09 Xliff Now I wonder how well perl6 will handle a 3M file that's just a Hash definition.
07:09 wamba joined #perl6
07:10 _mg_ joined #perl6
07:12 CIAvash Xliff: kind of relevant: https://pause.perl.org/pause/query?ACTION=pause_namingmodules#Net
07:13 Xliff Ahh... Thanks.
07:13 brrt joined #perl6
07:14 Xliff m: $s = "Marvelou's"; $s ~~ S:g/\'/\\'/;
07:14 camelia rakudo-moar 2c4506: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/rOmCyEMiEX␤Variable '$s' is not declared␤at /tmp/rOmCyEMiEX:1␤------> 3<BOL>7⏏5$s = "Marvelou's"; $s ~~ S:g/\'/\\'/;␤»
07:14 Xliff m: my $s = "Marvelou's"; $s ~~ S:g/\'/\\'/;
07:14 camelia rakudo-moar 2c4506: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤    Smartmatch with S/// can never succeed because the string it returns will fail to match. You can use given instead of ~~.␤    at /tmp/ORHXyTL8Ph:1␤    ------> 3my $s = "Marvelou's"; $s ~~ 7⏏5S:g/\'/\\'/;␤»
07:14 Xliff ???
07:15 moritz good morning
07:16 Xliff \o moritz
07:16 Xliff m: my $s = "Marvelou's"; $d = $s ~~ S:g/\'/\\'/;
07:16 camelia rakudo-moar 2c4506: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/b2RIeyGJHU␤Variable '$d' is not declared␤at /tmp/b2RIeyGJHU:1␤------> 3my $s = "Marvelou's"; 7⏏5$d = $s ~~ S:g/\'/\\'/;␤»
07:16 Xliff m: my $s = "Marvelou's"; my $d = $s ~~ S:g/\'/\\'/;
07:16 camelia rakudo-moar 2c4506: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤    Smartmatch with S/// can never succeed because the string it returns will fail to match. You can use given instead of ~~.␤    at /tmp/taf8uqoIq8:1␤    ------> 3my $s = "Marvelou's"; my $d = $s ~~ 7⏏5S:g/\'/\\'/;␤»
07:16 brrt good *
07:17 Xliff I thought S/// was substitute and return.
07:18 CIAvash m: say S:g/\'/\\'/ given "Marvelou's"
07:18 camelia rakudo-moar 2c4506: OUTPUT«Marvelou\'s␤»
07:18 moritz Xliff: it is. And ~~ is smart-match
07:19 moritz Xliff: so, you're substituting, and the return value is then used for smart matching
07:19 Xliff Right. And I foolishly did that after reading Zoffix's excellent article on the subject. *sigh*
07:19 Xliff This is what I get for coding after 3am
07:19 moritz nearly all of my coding is done after 3am :-)
07:20 kaos01 jesus
07:20 Xliff Yeah, but I bet you do coffee
07:21 moritz I don't
07:21 moritz but I do sleep between 3am and coding :-)
07:24 rindolf joined #perl6
07:26 Xliff Yeah. I haven't yet.
07:27 Xliff OK. Why am I getting "Method 'match' not found for invocant of class 'Any'" when the field should be VARCHAR.
07:27 moritz sounds like you're getting a NULL
07:27 Xliff Nope. It's "#System"
07:28 Xliff And I'm doing "if $field.defined" before I perform the match.
07:28 RabidGravy joined #perl6
07:28 moritz weird
07:28 moritz please show the code
07:29 Xliff One sec.
07:31 shadowpaste "xliff" at 217.168.150.38 pasted "WAT??" (10 lines) at http://fpaste.scsys.co.uk/517506
07:32 Xliff The first say is "#System" the second say is "Str"
07:34 raydiak isn't ($d<typeName> given S:g/\"/\\"/) backwards?
07:34 abraxxa joined #perl6
07:36 moritz it is
07:36 masak joined #perl6
07:36 masak morning, #perl6
07:36 moritz \o masak
07:36 raydiak morning masak
07:37 masak something... rebooted since yesterday?
07:38 diakopter ur face
07:38 moritz yes, hack, I think
07:38 wamba joined #perl6
07:38 masak I experienced problems ssh-ing into hack yesterday
07:39 masak wanted to report it, but was too lazy to use webchat
07:40 abraxxa joined #perl6
07:45 pierre_ joined #perl6
07:49 masak I wrote a thing in Perl 6. it runs in 2m31.850s. then I ported it to Perl 5. it runs in 0m5.990s.
07:49 masak I wonder if I should submit this thing to some benchmarking suite.
07:50 masak m: my ($minutes, $seconds) = 2, 31.850; my $time = 60 * $minutes + $seconds; say $time / 5.990;
07:50 camelia rakudo-moar 2c4506: OUTPUT«25.350584␤»
07:50 moritz m: say ( 2 * 60 + 31.85) / 5.99
07:50 camelia rakudo-moar 2c4506: OUTPUT«25.350584␤»
07:50 masak "great minds..." :P
07:51 masak srsly, that thing's freaky sometimes :P
07:51 moritz "... don't always type at the same speed"
07:51 masak I'll note that I was faster *and* more self-documenting :P
07:51 bjz joined #perl6
07:51 moritz masak: especially given how little common face time we had
07:52 * masak .oO( IRC soulmates, forever )
07:54 masak next up: gonna re-write the same script in Python 3, to see how it comes out. my wild guess: within 1x-2x of the Perl 5 runtime.
07:54 Xliff Oh. LOL!
07:54 nine masak: it's a number, it should be optimized, it should go into the benchmarking suite. Especially since it's probably something real-life related and not an artificial benchmark.
07:54 yoleaux 00:15Z <llfourn> nine: I've done some more investigation on RT #128156. Results on the ticket :)
07:54 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=128156
07:55 masak nine: thanks; that's all the encouragement I needed. <3
08:02 araujo joined #perl6
08:03 sergot joined #perl6
08:11 avalenn joined #perl6
08:12 darutoko joined #perl6
08:17 masak japhb: if I want to add a benchmarks which takes 2m31s to run in Rakudo, does it go in minibenchmarks.pl ?
08:20 ocbtec joined #perl6
08:23 bjz joined #perl6
08:25 Xliff Forcing perl6 to compile a 3M .pm6
08:25 Xliff Just to see if something breaks.
08:28 Xliff Wow! Still compiling.
08:29 gregf_ Sw33tAppl3!23
08:29 yoleaux 20 May 2016 18:08Z <raiph> gregf_: [Nil] becomes [Any]; see http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2016-05-20#i_12517566
08:30 masak gregf_: if that was a password... maybe time to change your password now...? :)
08:31 Xliff gregf_, wrong window?
08:31 Xliff masak: LOL!
08:32 Xliff ===SORRY!===
08:32 Xliff Frame 2 local access out of range
08:32 Xliff ^^ That's what I got. The short code never ran.
08:32 Xliff Trying to get Rakudo to compile a 3M hash definition.
08:32 masak Xliff: are you able to find the exact cutoff where it doesn't work?
08:33 Xliff masak: No. That's all I got.
08:33 masak I mean, can you play around with the hash size, essentially bisecting it?
08:33 Xliff masak: Yeah. I'll play around with that, tomorrow.
08:33 masak I've gotten similar bailouts when I've put ridiculously many lexical variables in the same scope.
08:34 Xliff Remind me. I'm too tired to do that right now and I need a nap. I need to be up in another 3 hours.
08:34 Xliff I'm timing it now. I will paste results before I snooze.
08:35 gregf_ ah - man
08:35 gregf_ din see that ..... *hides*
08:36 gregf_ monitors were off - so i retyped
08:36 Xliff gregf_, no worries if you change that, now.
08:37 gregf_ :)
08:37 Xliff Otherwise I might be forced to script log into everything on your subnet using that…
08:37 Xliff (nice password BTW)
08:38 Xliff Now I wonder if I can do unicode passwords with Linux. Would make it impossible to log into systems without XCompose or something compatible.
08:38 Xliff Or I would be forced to build password via cut&paste which would defeat the purpose.
08:38 Xliff (BTW - I was just kidding about the script thing...)
08:39 Xliff masak:
08:39 Xliff ===SORRY!===
08:39 Xliff Frame 2 local access out of range
08:39 Xliff real    3m53.154s
08:39 Xliff user    3m51.848s
08:39 Xliff sys     0m1.264s
08:39 Xliff I will get you an actual size, after I wake up.
08:47 masak it's not a nice password, for the record. far too short for 2016. and https://xkcd.com/936/ applies.
08:48 moritz really depends on the use case
08:48 moritz if it's something that can only be attacked through the network, 13 chars is plenty
08:48 moritz also, the question is, what standards do you apply
08:48 masak all valid points.
08:49 moritz if you compare it to most of leaked passwords out there, it's quite good in comparison
08:49 dakkar joined #perl6
08:49 masak "there are worse passwords", sure ;)
08:49 masak this one is essentially word + word + 123
08:49 masak which is eminently dictionary-able
08:55 masak Rakudo build fails for me:
08:55 masak ./perl6-m tools/build/install-core-dist.pl /home/masak/ours/rakudo/install/share/perl6
08:55 masak Failed to open file /home/masak/ours/rakudo/install/share/perl6/short/6D917C2DF32BB3F8FB6B5F8E529BB779C3DCA6F7/3FD70CCCD6914FAEC84AFAE6F97AF461A3EE1588: not a directory
08:55 masak in any  at ././CORE.setting.moarvm line 1
08:55 masak :(
08:55 CIAvash joined #perl6
08:56 masak oh, it seems to fail during the `make install` part.
08:56 * moritz tries
08:56 pierre_ joined #perl6
08:56 moritz yes
08:56 Xliff masak: Depends on the dictionary attack algorithm.
08:56 masak do we no longer support local installs?
08:56 masak Xliff: of course it does.
08:56 moritz masak: that would greatly surprise me
08:56 masak "this password is vulnerable." -- "depends how you attack it."
08:57 tadzik try "iddqd" :P
08:57 masak moritz: this was after a realclean + Configure (moar) + make + make install on Rakudo 2c45068.
09:00 Xliff masak: I'm still scratching my head over how Randal came up with the number of bits.
09:01 Xliff Then again... I need sleep, too!
09:02 Xliff OK. Recompiling Rakudo 1fa1e36 to see if I can reproduce error, and then I'm calling it a night.
09:02 Xliff I'm doing "rakudobrew build moar"
09:04 moritz masak: fwiw installation worked fine here
09:04 Xliff Correction, I was at ce5dc00 and am now at the same commit as masak.
09:04 Xliff It's been a while since I've freshend up my rakudo install.
09:04 AlexDaniel joined #perl6
09:05 Xliff Fails with "main::build_impl("moar", undef, "") called at /home/cbwood/.rakudobrew/bin/rakudobrew line 120"
09:05 Xliff Stage parse...
09:06 Xliff If someone wants me to do more for a bug report, speak now....
09:06 moritz Xliff: maybe try updating your rakudobrew first?
09:06 moritz Xliff: or get some sleep first :-)
09:06 moritz #perl6 can wait
09:07 * masak is currently trying to build an older Rakudo
09:07 masak keep getting "failed to load library 'dynext/libperl6_ops_moar.so'" even on older checkouts
09:08 masak I don't remember *building* rakudo being this fragile before -- anyone else having similar troubles lately?
09:08 masak guess this is turning into a #perl6-dev discussion
09:08 moritz masak: maybe try a "git clean -xdf" in your rakudo git repo (make sure there are no interesting, untracked files in there)
09:08 moritz no, I don't remember such trouble, though I haven't built rakudo all that often myself
09:09 Xliff moritz: All good suggestions! I've updated rakudobrew! =)
09:09 masak oh, good idea
09:09 pierre_ joined #perl6
09:09 RabidGravy m: use NativeCall; class Foo is repr("CStruct") { has CArray[Foo] $.children; }
09:09 camelia rakudo-moar 2c4506: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/MDMmgvD9m9␤An exception occurred while parameterizing CArray␤at /tmp/MDMmgvD9m9:1␤Exception details:␤  Cannot call infix:<===>(Foo, Str); none of these signatures match:␤      ($?)␤      (\a, \b)␤…»
09:10 moritz m: use NativeCall; class Foo is repr("CStruct") { has $.children }
09:10 camelia rakudo-moar 2c4506: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/aAm4PYMaLx␤CStruct representation only handles int, num, CArray, CPointer, CStruct, CPPStruct and CUnion␤at /tmp/aAm4PYMaLx:1␤»
09:10 RabidGravy leaving aside the LTAness of what happens, someone came up with a work around for that the other day and I can't remember what it was
09:10 moritz m: use NativeCall; class Foo is repr("CStruct") { has CArray[int] $.children }
09:10 camelia rakudo-moar 2c4506: ( no output )
09:10 moritz RabidGravy: inheriting from Any as well?
09:10 RabidGravy yep that was the one :)
09:10 moritz m: use NativeCall; class Foo is repr("CStruct") is Any { has CArray[Foo] $.children; }
09:10 camelia rakudo-moar 2c4506: ( no output )
09:11 RabidGravy I knew it was simple but I just couldn't remember
09:12 Xliff http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2016-05-16#i_12487930
09:12 Xliff Dammit, moritz! Stop being so fast!
09:12 Xliff =)
09:12 gregf_ joined #perl6
09:13 masak no, please keep it up
09:13 Xliff Heh!
09:13 masak moritz: good news: `git clean -xdf` fixed the problem in HEAD, too
09:14 masak moritz: am I wrong in thinking it's... unsatisfactory that a target called *realclean* doesn't really clean things enough, but `git clean -xdf` does?
09:15 moritz masak: yes
09:15 Xliff Maybe "realclean" should test for .git and add that command?
09:15 moritz masak: so the next time this happens, please do a "make realclean" first, then a "git clean -xdf", and note which files weren't deleted
09:16 moritz Xliff: noooo
09:16 moritz Xliff: people occasionally write small test scripts etc. in the root directory, and "make realclean" shouldn't delete them
09:16 Xliff Oooh.
09:16 moritz Xliff: it should only delete files generated during the build
09:16 masak moritz: will do :)
09:17 Xliff Well, that's my new thing learned for the day.
09:17 Xliff Of course, something tells me that after I've done "git clean -xdf" I might need to reinstall all of my modules.
09:17 masak Xliff: besides which, it doesn't sound healthy that the build toolchain have a dependency on Git, at least not for that target.
09:17 Xliff masak: You have a point.
09:18 masak for doing releases, it makes sense, I guess.
09:18 moritz masak: I guess the biggest difference is that "make realclean" doesn't delete install/
09:18 Xliff Yup. Works. So I wonder what "git clean -xdf" did to fix the problem?
09:18 masak moritz: TIL.
09:19 masak moritz: any good reason for that?
09:19 Xliff And yes, it's a clean rakudo installation.
09:19 moritz masak: that's not how things are done :-)
09:19 moritz masak: if rakudo is installed into /, should "make realclean" delete / as well?
09:19 Xliff Shit.
09:19 Xliff Shell::Command failed.
09:19 masak moritz: n... no. :)
09:20 moritz "install" is just a default :-)
09:20 shadowpaste "xliff" at 217.168.150.38 pasted "Rakudobrew build fail" (63 lines) at http://fpaste.scsys.co.uk/517602
09:20 masak moritz: I'm glad I asked. ;)
09:22 moritz :-)
09:22 moritz Xliff: looks like that happens during the panda bootstrap... so rakudo already installed
09:23 Xliff No. The binaries did not get installed
09:23 moritz huh
09:23 moritz no wonder the panda bootstrap failed.
09:24 Xliff Wonder why the regression, there.
09:25 Xliff error: pathspec 'nom' did not match any file(s) known to git.
09:25 Xliff panda for nom not found
09:25 moritz Xliff: what command did you launch?
09:25 Xliff "rakudobrew build moar"
09:25 Xliff Which has always worked up until now.
09:26 moritz sounds legit
09:28 RabidGravy it's been doing that for a while, but carries on to work anyway
09:29 Xliff And now "rakudobrew build panda" doesn't work.
09:30 Xliff (cd ~/.rakudobrew/bin; for a in ../moar-nom/install/bin/*; do ln -s $a; done) <-- fixed rakudo but not panda
09:33 Xliff Well, now that the links are in place, let's see if "rakudobrew build moar" fixes the panda install.
09:33 _mg_ joined #perl6
09:35 Xliff Yup. That fixed it.
09:36 skingsbu joined #perl6
09:38 labster joined #perl6
09:49 iH2O joined #perl6
09:55 pierre_ joined #perl6
09:59 cpage_ joined #perl6
10:16 Xliff masak: So far I have determined that a hash of 15k items works, and a hash of 20k items doesn't. Trying to narrow it down further.
10:16 Xliff However, I am wondering if it is more size of the represented data, than the number of key/value pairs.
10:17 Xliff 17500 items fails.
10:21 Xliff 16000 items succeeds.
10:21 pierre_ joined #perl6
10:25 * RabidGravy is reminded why he set out to write a new internet radio station  software in Perl 6 in the first place
10:27 Xliff RabidGravy: And what was the reminder?
10:27 RabidGravy Airtime giving me one of those periodic WTF moments
10:28 iH2O :(
10:28 iH2O i say perl6 is better than LISP for artificial intelligence
10:29 RabidGravy it uses ID3 tags in the audio files for its own purposes, including those created by the show recorder, except if you download one of the recorded shows and then try to re-upload it for for some reason it craps out because it can't parse its own tags :(
10:31 sjn Xliff: how about 16383 and 16384 (2^14)
10:34 Xliff sjn: Good idea. I'll cue those up.
10:34 Xliff Trying 16200 now.
10:35 Xliff But that seems to be lining up with what I am seeing.
10:35 Xliff Takes rakudo 3 minutes to precompile the module. That adds up.
10:36 Xliff sjn: Why would static hash definitions be limited, though?
10:40 jnthn The magic number will be around the 16-bit unsigned limit.
10:40 jnthn And that's because passing pairs to a hash constructor is argument passing.
10:40 Xliff Yeah. 16384
10:40 jnthn And there's a limit to how many arguments you may pass.
10:40 jnthn (I don't expect this to change any time soon.)
10:41 Xliff Means I will have to break this up into pieces, then.
10:41 jnthn aye
10:41 jnthn lunch &
10:46 Xliff 16383 fails
10:47 Xliff So I'll try one more and if that works, I'll use that as a hard limit.
10:49 Xliff 16340 works.
10:52 masak Xliff: 16384 is the cutoff.
10:53 masak er. wait. no.
10:53 * masak sucks at backloggin'
10:53 aindilis joined #perl6
10:53 masak and at reading in general.
10:54 iH2O left #perl6
10:56 Xliff Nope. So far it's 16340. 16382 failed, so if it's close to a power of 2, it's not that close.
10:56 Xliff I'm reading an e-Book while I do this, so it's mindless testing.
10:59 masak "close to a power of 2" is still significant
10:59 masak if there's a header to the data structure which takes up some constant space
10:59 brrt joined #perl6
11:01 RabidGravy I just had a moment of struggle switching to my inner "python mode"
11:01 masak ...in order to speak parseltongue with one of your evil minions?
11:02 * hahainternet is interviewing for a python consultant position today i think
11:02 kaare_ joined #perl6
11:03 tbrowder joined #perl6
11:03 tbrowder good morning p6 people!
11:03 cpage_ joined #perl6
11:03 RabidGravy it's the "indent has to be the same kind of whitespace" thing that gets me every time
11:04 hahainternet my favourite python thing is "do not align assignments"
11:04 masak tbrowder: top of the localtime to you!
11:04 hahainternet why? well just because ok, you don't think the people who wrote PEP8 are 20x smarter than you? :D
11:04 hahainternet then i used go and gofmt aligns things horizontally for you, i fell in love
11:05 masak hahainternet: if you feel strongly about it, write a Python formatting tool that is configured the way you want :)
11:05 tbrowder continuing my problems with p6 pod:  I have scrubbed a bad pod file down to I think a minimum, and used the suggested method to test it
11:05 masak can't be that hard, Python doesn't have much syntax :P
11:05 hahainternet masak: :grin:
11:05 RabidGravy I dunno, this code here the assignments are all aligned neatly
11:05 hahainternet masak: but it's more the fact it goes against the 'official' formatting guidelines
11:05 masak tbrowder: sounds like great news. do you have a gist for us?
11:05 hahainternet RabidGravy: non pep8 compliant code!!!!! (moer exclamations required!)
11:06 masak hahainternet: who cares? honestly. if you and your team are happy with your own guidelines.
11:06 masak (and feel you have good reasons to uphold them)
11:06 hahainternet masak: i absolutely agree, i'm just parodying the python community's approach :)
11:06 tbrowder I'll put it in a gist shortly, but besides the bad pod, the worst part is perl6's response to it leaves no cluse as to what the problem is
11:06 hahainternet i'll stop noising up #perl6
11:06 RabidGravy well to be fair this particular application (Airtime) is an evil mix of python and PHP, I'm just amazed it works at all half the time ;-)
11:07 masak hahainternet: I don't necessarily want to defend the "only one way" mentality... but I can see how its opposite "anything goes" worldview can sometimes lead to trouble, too
11:07 hahainternet masak: it's why i fell in love with gofmt
11:07 hahainternet no more arguing
11:07 Xliff masak: 16360 passes. I think I'll stop there.
11:08 tbrowder for example, executing 'perl6 bad.pod' yields exactly "===SORRY!=== Cannot iterate object with P6opaque representation"
11:08 hahainternet an entirely unrelated question: why is posix_memalign the only libc malloc class function without an alternate symbol name :/
11:13 ocbtec joined #perl6
11:15 masak tbrowder: yes, that's an unacceptable error message. I agree.
11:16 tbrowder the gist with the short good and bad Perl 6 pod examples is here: https://gist.github.com/tbrowder/23c5ef38cccab30a32a7f7a2ca61659d
11:17 masak nice. short.
11:17 masak problem reproduced.
11:17 * masak submits rakudobug
11:23 finanalyst joined #perl6
11:24 AlexDaniel “It seems like you forgot to attach a file. You wrote "is attached" in your message, but there are no files attached. Send anyway?” – gmail
11:24 yoleaux 03:28Z <MasterDuke> AlexDaniel: PR 775 addresses the first part of RT #128214 by failing when a path part doesn't exist, instead of continuing, but not resolving. the second part wasn't really a problem with resolve, you were just trying to '.dir' on a non-existent path
11:24 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=128214
11:25 Xliff Damn. Splitting the data into 2 hashes still hits that "Frame 2 local access out of range" error.
11:25 AlexDaniel MasterDuke: in other words, ‘../foo/..’ is not going to resolve?
11:29 masak tbrowder: https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=128221
11:33 tbrowder masak: thanks!  can you please take a look at this gist for an htmlify.p6 problem: https://gist.github.com/tbrowder/b83da3fa5110b7dfdf9930c75747af54
11:34 * masak takes a look
11:34 kid51 joined #perl6
11:35 masak tbrowder: a variable called $source-name on line 171 of the file htmlify.p6.latest is undefined
11:35 masak tbrowder: I could delve deeper and find out why, but I'm... kinda at $work
11:38 adu joined #perl6
11:38 tbrowder masak:  sorry--didn't mean to interrupt--I have tried to find the variable but no luck so far--no biggie--seems not to cause a problem, though
11:39 tbrowder it would be nice to get a better error message to help pin-point it like using carp or cluck
11:44 Xliff masak: Attempting to split the hash into 2 modules.
11:45 Xliff That worked.
11:46 Xliff This is a piss poor way to do things, though. Really I may end up using SQLite to store this data.
11:47 RabidGravy just keys and plain values?
11:48 RabidGravy I think there is some working hash file storage thingy in the ecosystem
11:48 Xliff One is keys and values, another is keys and records
11:49 * Xliff checks Ecosystem.
11:49 RabidGravy my work on gdbm is still in a state of indefinitely postponed
11:50 telex joined #perl6
11:51 cpage_ joined #perl6
11:53 Xliff Yeah. That's the next step. SQLite databases should be easier to distribute and use rather than this Frankenstein thing I'm currently dealing with.
11:54 stmuk another thing that looked horrid to nativecall was Tk :)
11:55 Xliff Can DBIish create SQLite files/databases?
11:57 Xliff Hrrmn. "touch file.db" seems to be the easiest thing to do.
11:58 masak Xliff: pretty sure I've been creating a SQLite database using DBIish.
11:58 masak at some point
11:58 masak tbrowder: no worries. just explaining why I can't be of more assistance right now.
11:59 masak tbrowder: what is it about the error message that you don't consider clear? it gives you the name of the variable, the cause of the warning, the line and the file.
12:00 masak tbrowder: granted, there'll be more things causing the variable being undefined, but you'd basically need to start debugging and/or tracing the data flow backwards in the program in order to find that out. which is Hard and not something I'd expect the compiler to do for me.
12:00 tbrowder masak: yes, that's the starting point, and I intend to track it down, but haven't looked outside the doc repo yet--I suspect it's in rakudo
12:02 |2701 joined #perl6
12:02 masak tbrowder: disconfirmed. `find -name htmlify\*` turns up nothing in the rakudo repo.
12:04 dalek perl6-examples: 452df0d | (Steve Mynott)++ | categories/ (4 files):
12:04 dalek perl6-examples: link to doc.perl.org not spec/design
12:04 dalek perl6-examples: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6-examples/commit/452df0db8d
12:09 tbrowder masak: I think the key is finding variable "$source-name"...I'll search now that I'm back on a real computer
12:10 masak it should be on that line in that file :)
12:12 tbrowder but it's not--I remember I tracked it down to an apparent problem with CompUnit and sure enough it's there in rakudo--I'll keep checking--thanks for waking me up
12:15 masak tbrowder: a `find` on perl6-all-modules digs up this file: https://github.com/perl6/doc/blob/master/htmlify.p6
12:16 masak moritz++
12:16 masak but... plot thickens... no variable `$source-name` in that file
12:17 masak however, as you imply, this variable occurs in both src/core/CompUnit/PrecompilationRepository.pm and src/core/CompUnit/Repository/Installation.pm
12:17 masak in the former, even on line 171
12:17 tbrowder masak: exactly--it's over in rakudo in ./src/core/CompUnit/PrecompilationRepository.pm and ./src/core/CompUnit/Repository/Installation.pm
12:18 masak yes.
12:23 tbrowder masak: I'll do some more debugging on that later today...
12:32 huggable joined #perl6
12:35 Amnez777 joined #perl6
12:49 dalek gtk-simple: d1fcc6e | azawawi++ | examples/0 (16 files):
12:49 dalek gtk-simple: Replace underscores with dashes and .pl6 as an extension
12:49 dalek gtk-simple: review: https://github.com/perl6/gtk-simple/commit/d1fcc6efe1
12:53 _4d47 joined #perl6
12:58 skids joined #perl6
13:01 pierre_ joined #perl6
13:02 cdg joined #perl6
13:04 cdg joined #perl6
13:12 Xliff What does this warning mean: "Asked to remove 20 spaces, but the shortest indent is 16 spaces  in any trim_heredoc at gen/moar/m-Perl6-Actions.nqp line 451"
13:12 Xliff And how can I get rid of it?
13:13 timotimo it means you have a heredoc where the terminator is further to the right than the shortest line is
13:13 timotimo hm. it really could do with reporting a line number if it can
13:14 Xliff Yeah, and I really didn't have any heredocs where the terminator was further right.
13:14 Xliff But I unindented the terminator and the error went away.
13:14 Xliff Thanks, ("timo" xx 2)
13:17 timotimo did you have tabs in there?
13:17 timotimo by default we interpret tabs to be 8 spaces, unless you set $*TABWIDTH or what it is
13:18 Xliff Ah... that might be it.
13:19 Xliff Now... to see if DBIish will want to load the entire .sqlite3 file before it will run queries.
13:19 Xliff Which would be bad.
13:19 timotimo it doesn't do anything to the file, it just uses the sqlite library
13:20 moritz right
13:20 moritz and I guess sqlite3 doens't do that
13:20 timotimo it probably mmaps, which is much cheaper
13:20 Xliff Excellent!
13:20 Xliff However inserting is slow.
13:20 RabidGravy yeah it does
13:20 Xliff Might be coz index.
13:21 moritz also, sqlite isn't designed for heavy, concurrent writes
13:21 moritz that simply requires a server model
13:21 Xliff This isn't a concurrent write use-case.
13:24 masak haven't thought about it that way, but sqlite is kind of interesting *because* the tradeoffs it makes translates to fairly common use cases
13:24 RabidGravy you can turn journalling off with a pragma if you don't think you need it
13:25 masak for example, it's excellent on mobile for local storage
13:26 RabidGravy also in a non concurrent bulk write kind of situation setting the locking mode to exclusive may speed it up
13:26 Xliff masak: That's why I thought of it for this project.
13:26 RabidGravy as it won't bother with row locks
13:27 Xliff And once the database is written, it will be read-only, so turning off journaling after the data is loaded would be god.
13:27 Xliff s/god/good/
13:27 masak right
13:27 Xliff Also, are primary keys auto-indexed for SQLite files?
13:27 masak there's probably a fancy term for "the low end of use cases that don't require the full ACID hoopla"
13:28 hoelzro Xliff: yes
13:28 RabidGravy many and varied pragma for tuning https://www.sqlite.org/pragma.html
13:28 hoelzro the primary key is the clustering key for SQLite, iirc
13:32 Xliff Cool. Now I think I have this thing working.
13:32 Xliff Thanks, everyone.
13:33 ocbtec joined #perl6
13:34 Xliff Now the next thing to test is if multiple tables in a single file will degrade performance.
13:37 RabidGravy I've run quite large applications with tens of tables on sqlite for testing purposes, it's not great but it not entirely un-usable
13:37 Xliff Cool.
13:37 wamba joined #perl6
13:38 Xliff I have tons of data that I basically need name -> ID and ID -> Name mappings.
13:38 Xliff And this needs to be in a distribution so I don't have the luxury of an RDBMs
13:47 _4d47 left #perl6
13:50 adu joined #perl6
13:56 khw joined #perl6
14:00 RabidGravy is there something in the ecosystem that already defines the time.h stuff from POSIX?
14:00 RabidGravy annoying USB library uses a timeval
14:05 moritz it seems the videos from GPW2016 are being uploaded to youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1YxXfqP1Ks&amp;feature=youtu.be
14:07 tadzik sweet
14:07 moritz ... and the introductions are cut off :(
14:07 El_Che what time slots are available for talks at yapc::eu? (No info without login in)
14:07 tadzik seeing masak's name asciified to Maesak, I can't wait to see what mine will be :o if the lighning talks get uploaded, at least
14:08 tadzik 15, 30 and 60 I think?
14:08 moritz yes
14:08 moritz and lightning, I hope :-)
14:08 El_Che thx
14:08 tadzik El_Che: Maesak
14:08 tadzik erm
14:08 tadzik http://imgur.com/N53P4UK
14:08 tadzik that
14:08 [Coke] mst: did you write down the desired redirect channel so the next time someone asks a perl5 question, we can safely redirect them?
14:08 tadzik so 90 too
14:08 sufrostico joined #perl6
14:09 lizmat joined #perl6
14:17 Xliff What outputs to STDOUT without automatically adding a newline?
14:17 moritz print
14:17 [Coke] is github slow today or just me?
14:17 Xliff Thanks.
14:23 mst [Coke]: eh? there's already a perl5 channel on this network - #perl - which normally people send them to. you're the first person to ignore the obvious answer and do something inexplicable instead, so I dunno where I should write down "don't be [Coke]" :D
14:23 yoleaux 22 May 2016 20:05Z <moritz> mst: to get that blog post out
14:23 [Coke] mst: I am not the first person to do that. there's no need to be rude.
14:23 itaipu joined #perl6
14:24 mst [Coke]: first person I've seen in here do that. I don't know what's rude about the truth.
14:25 [Coke] "don't be [Coke]".
14:26 gfldex mst: so the truth is »"don't be [Coke]"«
14:26 lizmat .oO( don't be mst )
14:26 [Coke] OK. We'll keep not writing it down. I'll try to remember the correct answer next time.
14:27 masak print
14:27 mst [Coke]: if you think there *is* a reason to send somebody to another IRC network, irc.perl.org's website has a channel list on it http://www.irc.perl.org/channels.html
14:27 masak heh, stale backlog :P
14:27 mst lizmat: that's also very good advice.
14:27 masak otherwise I'd've beat moritz to the punch, I'm sure :P
14:28 * moritz punches to the beat
14:28 mojca1 joined #perl6
14:28 mojca1 [Coke]: I tried to update MoarVM, nqp and rakudo in MP, but all tests from t/01-sanity/53-transpose.t on fail
14:29 mst [Coke]: ok, look, I have no idea why, on a network with a very long established #perl channel, you decided to send people to an entire other network instead, and therefore I'm not sure what to write down or where to try and avoid somebody else doing that. if you want to sulk instead of trying to solve the problem, your choice, but that was a genuine statement, not an insult
14:29 [Coke] mst: Historically, that was the channel that we sent people to. It's just inertia on my part, that's all.
14:29 masak I don't mind my last name Mäsak being ASCIIfied to Maesak. but on IRC I greatly prefer just "masak".
14:29 mst [Coke]: wut
14:29 mojca1 I get "Dubious, test returned 1 (wstat 256, 0x100)", I don't know what that means
14:29 mst [Coke]: #perl6 has always sent people to #perl on here and it's fine
14:29 [Coke] mst: "always" is very strong and not true.
14:29 mst [Coke]: you, OTOH, tried to send them to #perl on irc.perl.org which is completely different, not something I've seen in here before, and wrong
14:30 [Coke] I'm probably the only dinosaur left. That's fine, I'll change my stripes.
14:30 mst ok, well, I don't recall 'irc.perl.org #perl' receiving anybody from here
14:30 mst err, up until a few years ago that would've been even more wrong than it is now. I had to play a flamethrower over quite a few of the old regulars to make irc.perl.org #perl habitable ;)
14:31 moritz that's why we sent them to #perl-help or something
14:31 moritz or used to, at least
14:31 mst #perl on here or #perl-help over there are both fine. it was [Coke] trying to send them to #perl over there that I went "eep" at, because I hadn't seen that before and it isn't a good idea
14:31 masak mst: fwiw, I've been known to send people to #perl over on irc.perl.org
14:31 JimmyZ joined #perl6
14:31 [Coke] mst: you went quite more than eep.
14:32 mst masak: well, you can [Coke] between you can figure out where to write down "don't do that" then
14:32 mojca1 [Coke], are you willing to look into test errors on Mac and report them to a suitable place?
14:32 [Coke] mojca1: for what now?
14:32 mst [Coke]: yeah, well, I don't like throwing newbies into shark tanks and I expect regulars to prefer not shitting on newbies too
14:32 masak mst: I don't know much about either channel, but my impression is that the #perl over at irc.perl.org is higher-traffic and higher-quality in some sense
14:32 mst masak: the irc.perl.org #perl is a social channel and not somewhere to send people with tech questions
14:33 mojca1 [Coke], I'm not sure, I get a zillion "Dubious, test returned 1 (wstat 256, 0x100)" when running "sudo port -v test rakudo" for 2016.05
14:33 [Coke] masak: I'm happy to defer to mst about which perl5 stuff goes where.
14:33 mst irc.perl.org itself documents #perl-help but not #perl for a reason
14:33 mst but obviously nobody reads the website for the network
14:33 mst so I'm still not sure where to write this down
14:33 masak mst: got it. that does sound familiar.
14:33 masak I also remember something about #metallica :)
14:33 mst [Coke]: I'm not refusing to write this down, like you keep pretending
14:34 mst I just don't know where, since evidently you didn't read the existing docs
14:34 masak is it just me, or is it a little tense in here?
14:34 mst the question is, where *would* you look, and how do we patch that?
14:34 moritz masak: it is
14:34 mojca1 [Coke]: but I hope you will manage to figure out the details; I'm not a perl6 user myself (hardly even a perl5 user)
14:34 mst if somebody tells me that, I'm happy to help. otherwise, not a lot I can do, sorry
14:35 * masak looks around for people who might need hugs
14:35 dalek doc: 6db1d03 | titsuki++ | doc/Type/IO/Special.pod:
14:35 dalek doc: Fix a typo in the IO::Special page
14:35 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/6db1d0374a
14:35 dalek doc: 97ef172 | titsuki++ | doc/Type/IO/Special.pod:
14:35 dalek doc: Merge pull request #538 from titsuki/fix-typo
14:35 dalek doc:
14:35 dalek doc: Fix a typo in the IO::Special page
14:35 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/97ef172985
14:39 ptolemarch joined #perl6
14:41 lizmat afk again&
14:45 perlpilot masak: who doesn't need a hug?  :)
14:45 mst perlpilot: hugs are not necessary to human existence and you can perfectly well survive without them.
14:46 mst they are, however, *awesome*, and I am always sad when somebody turns one down
14:46 masak TIL :)
14:46 masak the whole tension thing was worth it, just for me learning that :P
14:46 gfldex i do agree on "survive" but must reject "perfectly well".
14:47 * moritz wonders if a newborn can actually grow up without any hugs
14:47 perlpilot mst: There's "survival" and then there's "living" ... I tend to favor the latter
14:47 masak moritz: I think so, but the results are not so good.
14:47 perlpilot moritz: I'm willing to bet that someone somewhere did such an experiment.
14:47 masak moritz: I remember some science on monkeys and a barbed-wire "mother"
14:47 masak damn, now I'm sad too :(
14:48 tadzik damn
14:48 moritz masak: well, there was a famous experiment where children were raised, and nobody was allowed to speak to them, to see what language was the "original" language of mankind
14:48 moritz they all died
14:48 masak stahp
14:48 perlpilot masak: so ... now we're back to "who doesn't need a hug?"   :-)
14:48 masak times five hundred
14:49 * masak .oO( our science conclusively shows the original language to be... DEATH )
14:49 * masak .oO( yay! science! )
14:50 nemo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_deprivation_experiments#In_history
14:50 moritz right, the fource paragraph is what I was refering to
14:50 moritz *fourth
14:51 moritz third, actually. Counting is hard
14:51 * moritz hugs masak
14:51 masak ahhh.
14:52 perlpilot methinks that hug may have gone on a little too long  ;>
14:52 masak perlpilot: clearly you need more high-quality hugs :)
14:52 * masak hugs perlpilot
14:53 * moritz hugs [Coke] and mst, for balance
14:53 perlpilot Just so you know ... I'm smiling right now IRL  :-)
14:53 [Coke] moritz: Ow.
14:53 masak perlpilot: haven't let go of you yet :P
14:53 s_kilk joined #perl6
14:53 * moritz hugs [Coke]
14:53 * masak hugs [Coke]
14:54 * perlpilot hugs [Coke]
14:54 perlpilot mst: your turn.
14:54 masak hug REQUIREMENT!
14:54 masak there's a lady in our neighborhood who basically goes around hugging people she meets.
14:54 * [Coke] attempts to not actually visualize the hugs scrunching up his wounded rotator cuff.
14:54 masak as far as I can tell, that's her dayjob.
14:54 perlpilot [Coke]: these are gentle hugs
14:55 mst HUGPILE
14:55 * mst glomps everybody
14:55 masak "he's not from here..." :P
14:55 perlpilot I'm not normally ebullient, but it's always nice to keep one of those people near by.
14:56 * masak .oO( they come to our channel, take our hugs )
14:56 moritz .oO( they love us for your hugdom )
14:56 moritz erm, hate
14:56 moritz whatever :-)
14:56 masak moritz: LoVe, HAte :)
14:56 moritz hate is love! war is is peace! and all of that
14:57 masak perlpilot: I can imagine some people are bothered by the hugs the Hug Lady hands out, or don't want to play sometimes.
14:57 masak me, I think it's super cool. I bet her hugs with me are the longest :)
14:57 masak she's like a walking Free Hugs service
14:58 [Coke] I'm of two minds, one of which is "please don't touch me."
14:59 masak well. the first time I was... surprised.
15:00 mst oh, you're talking about somebody local to you, not woolfy
15:00 ilmari masak: does she impose the hugs on people who don't want them?
15:00 masak mst: haha
15:01 masak masak: I've sometimes seen her request hugs from some of the children in our yard, and get a "no". she's a bit insistent, but eventually she backs off.
15:01 masak er, ilmari*
15:02 luiz_lha joined #perl6
15:02 masak ilmari: my wife and I have also decided to each hug her, but to discreetly steer our 17mo son around and behind her when we're out together. that tends to work.
15:02 ilmari fair enough
15:08 domidumont joined #perl6
15:11 perlpilot masak: hugs are how she brainwashes you before the rest of her species arrive on planet for the invasion.
15:12 perlpilot the upside is that you probably live longer and are healthier, so it's a win-win.
15:12 masak no argument there
15:13 masak I for one welcome our new Hug Lady overlords
15:23 domidumont1 joined #perl6
15:36 xue_ joined #perl6
15:38 Actualeyes joined #perl6
15:38 domidumont joined #perl6
15:39 ssotka joined #perl6
15:45 Zoffix joined #perl6
15:48 Zoffix stmuk, I think your blog aggregator config is missing a hyphen here: https://github.com/stmuk/pl6anet.org/blob/master/perlanetrc#L71    In other news, I've sent you a PR to have my blogs point to Perl6.Party and not blogs.perl.org: https://github.com/stmuk/pl6anet.org/pull/4
15:48 Zoffix stmuk: ^ (just recalled you have a crappy client that doesn't highlight on commas 😜)
15:54 stmuk actually I changed to weechat now!
15:56 stmuk hmm I seem to be having GH problems with sessions
15:57 stmuk I'll merge when I can actually get it to work!
16:02 kurahaupo joined #perl6
16:14 itaipu joined #perl6
16:15 kaare_ How come that the Anguish blog post is always on top at http://perl6.org/ ?
16:16 kaare_ Even though there are newer posts, even from Zoffix himself
16:17 mst because programming is all about angst, anguish, existentialism and hubrisism
16:17 kaare_ and beer
16:19 Zoffix :/ is China DoSing GitHub again?
16:20 diakopter or Mars
16:20 diakopter kaare_: maybe it goes by modifica date
16:21 Zoffix Mars?
16:21 diakopter the planet
16:21 Zoffix Ahhh... diakopter++
16:21 Zoffix Probably. I fixed a typo recently and it was after my lastest post.
16:22 diakopter kind of like google's date-filtered search results trust the reported date instead of when it actually first appeared
16:23 diakopter (I've seen search results claiming to be from the 1970s)
16:24 diakopter when Google first indexed it is usually more relevant to me
16:27 kurahaupo believe it or not, computers existed before the internet. And history goes back even further
16:29 diakopter I mean, the dates were obviously wrong, and from the 1970s
16:30 perlpilot or ... someone in google invented a time machine
16:30 * kurahaupo doesn't see a problem with a document that was created in 1840 having that as its mtime when it's transcribed onto a computer, and the webserver serves that date
16:31 pochi I need to pop up a window where the user can draw strokes with the mouse. Is there a module that can help me with that (I tried the module for SDL, but it seems to be broken)
16:31 kurahaupo (except that 32bit epoch seconds dont go back that far)
16:31 kaare_ Nope, time began August 4, 1997, when Cyberdyne switched on Skynet
16:32 kurahaupo diakopter: there are unix systems with real files whose timestamps are in the 1970s; just not very many.
16:33 kurahaupo everyone knows that Cyberdyne is a division of Alphabet Inc.
16:34 diakopter kurahaupo: I appreciate your help, but I already know all of that, and yet I still said what I said. I'll clarify again. The documents were created after the 70s.
16:34 kurahaupo Just it's taking Skynet a bit longer than planned to become selfaware
16:35 kurahaupo diakopter: how is Google to know which are the true and bogus timestamps?
16:35 diakopter I wasn't blaming google, FFS
16:36 diakopter let alone complaining
16:36 diakopter merely commenting
16:36 diakopter jfc
16:36 kurahaupo ok
16:40 Util joined #perl6
16:42 ggoebel114 joined #perl6
16:47 dalek doc: af876ce | titsuki++ | doc/Type/Routine.pod:
16:47 dalek doc: Add missing semicolons
16:47 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/af876cec59
16:47 dalek doc: 4d200a8 | titsuki++ | doc/Type/Routine.pod:
16:47 dalek doc: Merge pull request #539 from titsuki/fix-yada
16:47 dalek doc:
16:47 dalek doc: Add missing semicolons
16:47 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/4d200a8f0c
16:53 acrussell joined #perl6
16:58 wamba1 joined #perl6
17:07 spider-mario joined #perl6
17:10 ptolemarch joined #perl6
17:10 _mg_ joined #perl6
17:11 araujo_ joined #perl6
17:18 dha joined #perl6
17:23 * dogbert17 wonders if dalek has kicked the bucket
17:25 dha Daleks *always* come back.
17:27 jdv79 are they here?
17:28 jdv79 dha: is there a meeting anytime soon?  jim thought not.
17:28 dha Oh hell. I meant to call one for wednesday. OSCON has messed my mind up.
17:28 dha Think it's too late to do it?
17:29 jdv79 is wed the normal day?  why not thurs?
17:29 Amnez777 joined #perl6
17:30 jdv79 it might be a bit late given the holiday weekend...
17:30 dha yeah, that's why we were talking about wednesday.
17:34 dha Maybe I should make it for wednesday or thursday next week.
17:37 Zoffix It's a long weekend in US too?
17:37 jdv79 sounds better
17:37 jdv79 is memorial day on monday
17:37 dalek doc: d0e337d | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | doc/Type/Parameter.pod:
17:37 dalek doc: Fixed typo and added a missing C<>
17:37 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/d0e337d2d0
17:38 jdv79 *its
17:38 Zoffix Oh. I thought it was about today....
17:38 Zoffix Victoria Day here in Canukistan.
17:40 dha Ah.
17:41 RabidGravy I've just blinded myself with a raspberry pi
17:41 Zoffix I hope not permanently :)
17:41 dha We're short on Queens here, so we have to use regular words for our holidays. :-)
17:41 dha RabidGravy - congratulations?
17:42 dha Also, alert Thomas Dolby!
17:42 RabidGravy well in doing so I've proved that it's software not hardware that is being weird
17:44 RabidGravy https://shop.pimoroni.com/collections/raspberry-pi/products/piglow to be specific, really, really bright
18:01 labster joined #perl6
18:04 Actualeyes left #perl6
18:04 sno joined #perl6
18:07 nine llfourn: "This precompilation is complicated stuff!"  Hey, I arrived at the same conclusion :)
18:10 jevin joined #perl6
18:30 adu joined #perl6
18:32 dwarring joined #perl6
18:37 spider-mario joined #perl6
18:39 mojca joined #perl6
18:42 AlexDani` joined #perl6
18:53 mojca joined #perl6
18:55 dalek doc: de581cb | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | doc/Language/5to6-perlfunc.pod:
18:55 dalek doc: Fixed three broken links
18:55 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/de581cb093
18:55 cpage_ joined #perl6
18:58 cpage_ joined #perl6
19:00 jjido joined #perl6
19:00 domidumont1 joined #perl6
19:13 spider-mario joined #perl6
19:16 wamba joined #perl6
19:44 rindolf joined #perl6
19:47 dogbert17 hello :), does anyone know if the descripton of the method 'isa' in S32 is correct? https://design.perl6.org/S32/Basics.html#Any
19:47 hahnara joined #perl6
19:47 timotimo hm, i think isa also takes strings for types
19:47 dogbert17 timitimo: and it seems to have moved to Mu as well
19:47 timotimo also, it looks like it got damaged in editing or something
19:48 timotimo the design docs aren't really kept up to date any more :S
19:48 dogbert17 I was thinking of 'stealing' the text and update Mu.pod but I don't want to add nonsense :)
19:48 dha timotimo - that's... unfortunate.
19:49 dha Especially since I still hear people saying things like "I couldn't find that in the user docs, so I went to the design docs".
19:49 timotimo we're a bit low on people-power
19:50 dogbert17 timotimo: should I add the text it to Mu.pod?
19:50 dogbert17 s/it//
19:50 dha Ok. Is there a way to fix that? I would certainly be willing to try to put in some time if I had a clear idea of what was needed.
19:51 dha (Note: I ask that with the knowledge that the answer to my question may well be "no")
19:51 timotimo sorry, i'm not confident in deciding whether the design docs should follow what rakudo does or whether rakudo should change to do what the design docs say or whether it's okay to have them diverge
19:52 dha That is certainly a reasonable question. So I guess I move on to the question "is there a way we can resolve that?" (again, realizing there may not be a good answer to that either)
19:52 RabidGravy surely, if the design docs say the thing that is not true as regards implemented and tested behaviour then they're wrong
19:53 mst perhaps the answer in that case is to prepare a patch to the design docs, make sure it's hunked so each difference with rakudo is separate, then get jnthn/larry/whoever to review?
19:53 Zoffix Wasn't there a decision that Roast is the spec and the docs are the human version of that spec. The `design` is outdated and there's no real point in trying to keep it up to date. Hence why we call the specs "speculations" and not "specifications" now.
19:53 RabidGravy but, the actual docs should be the tested behaviour
19:54 [Coke] the design docs are more historical at this point.
19:54 stmuk the tests are Golden Source of Truth
19:54 [Coke] Add a note to this effect at the top of each one, point people at docs.perl6.org, and update things there instead.
19:54 RabidGravy yeah
19:54 mst yes, hence my thought that you prepare updates to the relevant docs to bring them in line with the tests, but then get somebody to double check
19:55 mst seems like generally the updates will be correct, but belt and braces
19:55 dogbert17 so you're ok with me adding 'isa' to Mu.pod?
19:55 RabidGravy I am
19:56 dogbert17 then it will be done :)
19:56 perlpilot dogbert17: I'm in favor of motion over stagnation  :)
19:56 dogbert17 perlpilot: agreed :)
19:56 RabidGravy though maybe noting that a smart match against a type object is probably "better"
19:57 dha I understand the idea the the design docs can be considered historical at this point, but, from a user perspective, since the user docs are often lacking (not a criticism, just how thing are, due to personpower, etc.), that's where people go looking for info.
19:57 dha Until that is not the case, the out-of-date-ness seems problematic. to a new user, in any case.
19:57 dogbert17 I'll whip something up and get back to you all in a bit
19:58 dha I am, of course, wholly in favor of the user docs being exhaustive to avoid this problem. ;-)
19:58 RabidGravy well fixing the design docs to fix it seems silly when it's a similar effort to write proper documents
19:59 mst there is always the option of "both"
19:59 [Coke] dha: of course it's problematic.
19:59 [Coke] I agree with you completely there.
19:59 [Coke] mst: we don't have time to do it once, let alone twice.
20:00 [Coke] so it's not really an option, IMO.
20:00 mspo there should be a way to annotate sources to satisfy the "spec", generating docs?
20:01 mspo but keeping two things in sync won't ever work
20:01 [Coke] awwaiid has some plans in that direction.
20:01 mst [Coke]: I'm more thinking "it may be that in some cases tweaking the spec now is doable and writing the docs isn't yet, so doing that first and filling the docs out later may be the least worst optioN"
20:01 dha Ok, so we agree on there being a problem. Should we have a conversation about how to solve the problem? Is there some specific group of people who should have that conversation? (honestly not being snarky here. Just trying to see if there's some way to fix this.)
20:01 RabidGravy feel free etc
20:01 Zoffix Then you have source mixed with docs and the potential range of contributors much smaller.
20:01 mst I leave decisions as to that up to the people actually doing the work, just making sure we look at the permutations
20:02 dha And, yes, I agree that if we have to choose between fixing docs and fixing spec, docs should take precedence. But, if docs can't be fixed, maybe a minor tweak to the spec would be helpful.
20:02 Zoffix Personally, I don't agree that there's a problem. We have a large language and few people to document it. It's a work in progress. Just because someone realized the docs aren't complete and went to read some sort of a technical document which is out of date doesn't mean there's a problem with anything.
20:03 RabidGravy the only thing preventing the docs being improved is people time
20:03 dha Zoffix - Then maybe there should be an explicit statement that those documents are not to be fully trusted?
20:04 cpage_ joined #perl6
20:04 Zoffix All the specs, as Coke suggested above.
20:04 [Coke] I think adding a warning to the design docs is in order, esp. if it points people at where to open a github issue saying what they were looking for and couldn't find. In terms of getting docs written, I'd encourage volunteers to write for docs.perl6.org before fixing up the design docs. I don't know if there is more of a plan to be had there.
20:05 Zoffix There's actually already text of that kind on design.perl6.org
20:05 Zoffix Not too obvious, but at least it's there :)
20:06 dha Ok, maybe it should be more obvious. :-)
20:06 mst making sure every page on the design docs has it in big letters at the top would help
20:06 mst I've often gone there via direct links
20:06 * [Coke] added https://github.com/perl6/specs/issues/110
20:07 dha And having people submit things they were looking for and couldn't find, and have those submissions in an obvious, central place would be tremendously useful
20:07 Zoffix Pffftt.... users and their crazy ways of using websites! *shakes head at mst*
20:08 [Coke] also added https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/541
20:09 dha [Coke]++
20:10 mst Zoffix: yeah, well, I know I'm unusual for clicking the links people give me when I ask questions and actually reading them, but there's the occasional other person with the same superpower
20:10 Zoffix Crazy! :)
20:13 dalek specs: 4791822 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | html/style.css:
20:13 dalek specs: Add note that specs may be outdated on each page (Closes #110)
20:13 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/4791822215
20:13 dha Zoffix++
20:14 |2701 joined #perl6
20:14 dogbert17 ok, here's a draft for method 'isa', how does it look?  https://gist.github.com/dogbert17/6a3255180c057f37a824f417a3a0823e
20:15 mojca joined #perl6
20:15 [Coke] dogbert17: is the uppercase \SELF used elsewhere?
20:16 dalek specs: 337e775 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | html/perl.css:
20:16 dalek specs: Add outdatedness note to second stylesheet used by the site as well
20:16 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/337e775a85
20:16 dha Silly question. Is there any way to find what's in the test suite that's not documented. Other than actually going through it manually, of course.
20:16 dogbert17 [Coke]: in Mu.pm yes
20:17 dogbert17 can't say it's a syntax that I'm familiar with :(
20:18 RabidGravy I'd leave the name of the invocant out
20:18 [Coke] ok. looks overly verbose to me, but if there's prior art, then no worries in you using it.
20:18 dogbert17 Perhaps Mu:D: instead?
20:19 RabidGravy just Mu:
20:19 dogbert17 RabidGravy: thx, will fix
20:20 dha dogbert17 -  the second part of the signature uses "$name" but you don't mention it in the explanation. Should it also be "$type"?
20:20 RabidGravy Zoffix, you appear to have added a big red banner on the docs as well as the specs
20:20 Zoffix :(
20:20 dha RabidGravy -  is that a bad thing?
20:21 dogbert17 dha: I think it should be $type, thx
20:21 RabidGravy well yes
20:21 dha What do you have against big red banners?
20:21 [Coke] yup, please revert.
20:22 dalek specs: d9fab81 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | html/perl.css:
20:22 dalek specs: Revert "Add outdatedness note to second stylesheet used by the site as well"
20:22 dalek specs:
20:22 dalek specs: This reverts commit 337e775a8511ad6cef00924cb9a71a57cc6b7785.
20:22 dalek specs:
20:22 dalek specs: The sheet is used on other sites too.
20:22 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/d9fab8171b
20:22 mst dha: DANGER: COMMUNISM
20:22 masak DANGER DANGER COMRADE WILL ROBINSON
20:22 dha You're just afraid of STICKING IT TO THE MAN.
20:23 dalek doc: b9efb74 | (Tom Browder)++ | doc/Language/variables.pod:
20:23 dalek doc: make a working example
20:23 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/b9efb740e8
20:23 dalek doc: fcd329e | (Tom Browder)++ | doc/Language/variables.pod:
20:23 dalek doc: Merge pull request #540 from tbrowder/grammar-example-2nd-try
20:23 dalek doc:
20:23 dalek doc: make a working example
20:23 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/fcd329e3d9
20:23 RabidGravy dogbert17, actually none of the Mu methods have the invocant documented
20:25 dogbert17 RabidGravy: so what should I write then?
20:25 RabidGravy just leave the invocant out
20:25 RabidGravy e.g. "method isa($type)"
20:26 dogbert17 RabidGravy: fixed, please reaload the page
20:26 dogbert17 s/reaload/reload/
20:27 RabidGravy cool
20:28 dogbert17 thx guys, I'll commit it
20:29 RabidGravy do it!
20:29 RabidGravy dogbert17++ # jfdi
20:29 _dolmen_ joined #perl6
20:29 Ven joined #perl6
20:31 dalek specs: 04b3cc6 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | html/perl-with-historical-message.css:
20:31 dalek specs: Work around the issue of multiple sites using perl.css
20:31 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/04b3cc6849
20:31 RabidGravy Zoffix++
20:32 huggable joined #perl6
20:33 dalek mu: 72af323 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | util/update-design.perl6.org.sh:
20:33 dalek mu: Use the CSS with the outdatedness message included during generation
20:33 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/72af323d22
20:33 dalek doc: 1fb27c0 | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | doc/Type/Mu.pod:
20:33 dalek doc: Added docs for method 'isa' in Mu. #perl6++
20:33 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/1fb27c0380
20:35 dogbert17 if this works we might perhaps be able to close https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/274
20:38 dha I lost track. Is the big red banner on doc.perl6.org pages supposed to be gone by now? I only ask because I know it was mentioned somewhat upthread, but it's still there.
20:38 dalek doc: ff833e0 | (Steve Mynott)++ | doc/ (3 files):
20:38 dalek doc: fix minor typos
20:38 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/ff833e0584
20:40 dogbert17 dha: impossible to miss :)
20:40 dha Oh, you'd be surprised what I can miss. :-)
20:42 Zoffix dha, it'll update in ~30 minutes on the next run of cronjob
20:47 jjido_ joined #perl6
20:51 dha joined #perl6
20:53 dalek doc: 47a5910 | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | doc/Language/objects.pod:
20:53 dalek doc: Another broken link fixed
20:53 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/47a59104a0
20:53 RabidGravy red thing gone :)
20:53 Zoffix Looks like someone needs to connect to hack and update this script: https://github.com/perl6/mu/blob/master/util/update-design.perl6.org.sh
20:54 pmurias joined #perl6
20:54 Zoffix Note to self: always have a jug of water for emergencies... I just brewed a cup of coffee using water from my steamer :(
20:54 moritz Zoffix: why not just update it in the repo?
20:55 moritz oh, it doesn't pull itself?
20:55 moritz pull'd
20:55 Zoffix moritz++
20:56 dha Yes. no more red thing. Yay.
20:57 AlexDani` joined #perl6
20:57 dha Incidentally, looking at notifications, I see there's a mention that qqw is searchable, but qqww isn't. I think the fact that it's not actually in the docs might explain that. What the heck is qqww supposed to do, anyway?
20:58 dha Ah, synchronicity.
20:58 Zoffix What's that?
20:58 dha What's what? qqww or the synchronicity?
20:59 Zoffix Both! :)
21:00 dha Well, I have no idea what qqww is (see https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/533 though) and the synchronicity is that AlexDaniel is the one who submitted that. :-)
21:01 AlexDaniel qqww is «»
21:01 dogbert17 Isn't Synchronicity a Police album?
21:01 Zoffix AlexDaniel, that explains nothing to me :)
21:02 AlexDaniel https://design.perl6.org/S02.html#Adverbs_on_quotes
21:02 AlexDaniel m: .say for <'hello world' test>
21:02 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«'hello␤world'␤test␤»
21:02 dha Well, the docs seem to say that «» is qqw. I have no idea what qqww would actually do.
21:02 AlexDaniel m: .say for «'hello world' test»
21:02 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«hello world␤test␤»
21:03 synopsebot6 joined #perl6
21:03 AlexDaniel that's the difference
21:03 Zoffix Ah, AlexDaniel++ Thanks
21:03 AlexDaniel dha: https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=128177
21:04 dha ah. didn't see the rt version. just the github.
21:05 dha And I don't know if you've seen it, but I commented on the github issue.
21:05 dha specifically that qqww isn't documented, so searching for it is probably a lost cause.
21:05 AlexDaniel dha: I was addressing your “the docs seems to say that X is qqw” (https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/532)
21:06 AlexDaniel dha: but yes, I've already answered and changed the title :)
21:06 dha Ah. I'm old. it's hard for me to keep up with you kids. :-)
21:07 AlexDaniel nah, it's just that I am over energized right now. Had a dead line 5 minutes ago
21:07 dha Ah.
21:08 dha Zoffix -  I'm amused that your comment on that issue refers to the design docs, given the red banners and such. :-)
21:09 dalek doc: a4576d6 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Language/objects.pod:
21:09 dalek doc: Make term mixin searchable (Closes #542)
21:09 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/a4576d6959
21:09 AlexDaniel dha: speculations have a lot of useful information
21:09 Zoffix dha, 'outdated' ne 'useless'
21:09 AlexDaniel dha: most of it is outdated, but there are some things that we can still steal for the docs :)
21:09 dha Oh, of course. I said amused, not horrified. :-)
21:09 AlexDaniel Zoffix: “Note: these documents may be out of date.” uh oh!
21:10 AlexDaniel Zoffix: isn't it a little bit too forgiving?
21:10 dha AlexDaniel -  Indeed. The trick is knowing what fits that description.
21:10 AlexDaniel these docs are out of date, that's it
21:11 pecastro joined #perl6
21:11 Zoffix AlexDaniel, http://bikeshed.com/ 😜
21:12 dha Hm... looks like there should be some discussion of w vs ww in the quoting docs.
21:13 cdg joined #perl6
21:13 AlexDaniel dha: yes. That'd be great. Can you write it?
21:14 RabidGravy dha, https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/376 - keep forgetting to do it
21:14 dha Looking into that now. Also, unless I'm confused, that design document indicates that w and ww are switched wrt what they're doing now.
21:14 dha unless, I don't understand what "quote protection" means.
21:15 AlexDaniel oh, there's one more issue! Great…
21:15 dha Am I confused? Or are they actually reversed now?
21:16 AlexDaniel m: .say for «'I am protected'»
21:16 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«I am protected␤»
21:16 AlexDaniel m: .say for <'And I am not'>
21:16 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«'And␤I␤am␤not'␤»
21:16 RabidGravy the problem with the design docs and quoting, is that half of what's speculated isn't implemented or is completely different
21:16 AlexDaniel m: .say for qqw〈'I am protected'〉
21:16 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«'I␤am␤protected'␤»
21:17 AlexDaniel m: .say for qqww〈'I am protected'〉 # whoops
21:17 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«I am protected␤»
21:17 Zoffix :/
21:17 AlexDaniel yeah I messed it up
21:17 Zoffix Ah. Those show up as null bytes in my IRC client :/
21:18 AlexDaniel Zoffix: unicode support. 2016 style.
21:18 Zoffix I see them in the browser :) HexChat on Windows just sucks :)
21:18 pmurias Updating the synopsis seems helpfull
21:19 AlexDaniel Zoffix: Can you see these ⟨⟩?
21:19 pmurias A lot of the stuff in docs.perl6.org seems tutorialish
21:19 pmurias which is horrible when I just want to get all the info about something
21:19 AlexDaniel pmurias: why don't you read the source code then
21:19 AlexDaniel okay, just kidding, you've got a point
21:20 Zoffix AlexDaniel, I just get codes: http://i.imgur.com/RhKELUC.png
21:20 AlexDaniel Zoffix: oh come on… :(
21:20 pmurias AlexDaniel: I had to read the tests for native call stuff as docs.perl6.org was wrong
21:21 RabidGravy well maybe that needs to be fixed
21:22 AlexDaniel m: say join ‘’, (0..0x1FFFF ==> grep { .uniname ~~ /:i angle/ } ==> map {.chr})
21:22 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT««»͉̚‹›⃤∟∠∡∢⊾⊿⌧〈〉⍼⎊⏃⏄⏅⏩⏪⏫⏬⏭⏮⏯⏴⏵⏶⏷▬▭▮▯▲△▴▵▶▷▸▹▼▽▾▿◀◁◂◃◢◣◤◥◬◭◮◸◹◺◿⛛❬❭❮❯❰❱➝➞➟➠⟀⟁⟨⟩⟪⟫⦑⦒⦛⦜⦝⦞…»
21:22 RabidGravy I think Natve/call needs two docs
21:22 AlexDaniel m: say join ‘’, (0..0x1FFFF ==> grep { .uniname ~~ /:i angle/ & /:i bracket/ }  ==> map {.chr})
21:23 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«〈〉❬❭❰❱⟨⟩⟪⟫⦑⦒⧼⧽〈〉《》︽︾︿﹀␤»
21:23 dha Hm. currently, we have docs for qw and qqw. Should I look to document the difference between w and ww separately, or just add a ww explanation in both qw and qqw?
21:23 AlexDaniel Zoffix: ↑ can you see anything?
21:24 AlexDaniel dha: /o\
21:24 dha Did I score a goal?
21:25 AlexDaniel dha: I think that qqww should exist anyway
21:25 AlexDaniel dha: just like qqw exists: http://doc.perl6.org/syntax/qqw.html
21:25 AlexDaniel dha: so maybe you can start from that, and then just link both from each other? Dunno
21:26 Zoffix AlexDaniel, some of it. IRC: http://i.imgur.com/5DRXqcw.png  Browser:  http://i.imgur.com/0Ie3NSh.png
21:27 dha Well, I'm on the fence there. The docs have different entries for interpolation vs. non-interpolation. :w is discussed only under qw. So what you're suggesting *should* lead to an entry for qww as well as qqww.
21:27 labster Thanks for the docs Zoffix.  And thanks for all of the HN karma off of your Anguish post.
21:27 TEttinger joined #perl6
21:27 dha I'm not sure that's worthwhile.
21:27 AlexDaniel dha: it is. People searching for qqww should get a qqww page
21:27 Zoffix labster, and thanks for putting my Anguish post to #1 spot for a brief period :)
21:28 dha ok. so I'll do a qww as well, then.
21:28 AlexDaniel dha: honestly, it does not matter so much as long as /something/ is there
21:28 labster I had to change the title to make it a bit more clickbaity.  dang changed it back later, which is why it dropped from #1 so fast :(
21:28 dha well, yes. but I'd like to do it right if I can. :-)
21:29 AlexDaniel .u 〈〉
21:29 yoleaux U+3008 LEFT ANGLE BRACKET [Ps] (〈)
21:29 yoleaux U+3009 RIGHT ANGLE BRACKET [Pe] (〉)
21:30 AlexDaniel m: ‘〈〉’.uninames.say
21:30 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«(LEFT ANGLE BRACKET RIGHT ANGLE BRACKET)␤»
21:30 AlexDaniel it does not say that these are full-width, but they are
21:30 AlexDaniel .u〈〉
21:30 AlexDaniel m: ‘〈〉’.uninames.say
21:30 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«(LEFT ANGLE BRACKET RIGHT ANGLE BRACKET)␤»
21:31 AlexDaniel m: ‘〈〉’.ords.say
21:31 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«(12296 12297)␤»
21:31 AlexDaniel m: ‘〈〉’.ords.say
21:31 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«(12296 12297)␤»
21:31 dha Oh. Also :w and :ww don't seem to be documented. So, do those need entries as well?
21:31 spider-mario joined #perl6
21:31 dha This leads us to entries on w, ww, q, qq, qw, qww, qqw and qqww.
21:31 dha Bleah.
21:32 AlexDaniel it does not look like a great idea anymore :D
21:32 dha Oh, here's a question. You say people should be able to search for qqww. But wouldn't they be more likely to search for «»?
21:32 synopsebot6 joined #perl6
21:32 AlexDaniel dha: search for what?
21:33 AlexDaniel dha: what is \253\273 ? :/
21:33 dha Oh, did that not render?
21:33 AlexDaniel nope
21:33 Zoffix nope
21:33 dha double angles
21:33 dha <<>>
21:33 pmurias AlexDaniel: there is a huge difference between docs oriented towards new towards something and ones for someone who wants all the minute details
21:34 AlexDaniel pmurias: no, you are completely right. But I'm not sure what would be the solution to this
21:34 AlexDaniel pmurias: ideally, somebody has to work on the specs too, but there's not enough manpower
21:34 dha So, what I'm thinking is that we can have the qw docs mention the qww version and similarly for qqw. So, qww and qqww wouldn't be searchable, but <> and <<>> would be.
21:34 Zoffix Make Perl 6 super popular to get more people working on the docs!
21:34 Zoffix :)
21:34 dha Not necessarily as a permanent solution, but so that we have the actual documentation there for now.
21:35 AlexDaniel dha: «» is already searchable
21:35 dha and deal with searchability at some later point.
21:35 dha right.
21:35 pmurias AlexDaniel: docs.perl6.org is intended to fullfill both the reference and introduction roles?
21:35 AlexDaniel it just points to http://doc.perl6.org/language/quoting
21:35 dha qww and qqww aren't.
21:36 pmurias maybe we should merge the synopsis with docs.perl6.org?
21:37 Zoffix merge how?
21:37 AlexDaniel gradually, perhaps
21:37 AlexDaniel Zoffix: move stuff from specs to docs, one by one
21:37 dha I'm thinking, since it seems to me that people would be *more* likely to search for the operators, rather than the qw versions, we put the w/ww distinction in the qw and qqw sections for now, and worry about searches for qww and qqww at some later point, but put the distinctions in the existing entries so the documentation is at least written and available if not wholly searchable.
21:37 masak pmurias: the synopses and docs.perl6.org have different target demographics.
21:38 jjido joined #perl6
21:38 masak users and implementors, respectively.
21:38 Zoffix AlexDaniel, wouldn't that make docs.perl6.org overly complex?
21:38 dha Also, the synopses are not up to date. Wait, didn't we have this discussion earlier? :-)
21:38 pmurias masak: how do those demographics differ?
21:38 Zoffix Kinda like Perl 5's perldocs. You get a giant wall of text for everything :(
21:38 masak pmurias: are you kidding me? :)
21:39 pmurias masak: it's a serious question
21:39 masak pmurias: as an implementor of a Perl 6 implementation, I need to know what a lexical closure is. what a continuation is. what bounded serialization is.
21:39 AlexDaniel Zoffix: not if we assign you to do that. Look at your blog posts, they're fun to read, they give basic introduction, and yet they talk about some details
21:39 masak as a user of the language, I don't, necessarily.
21:39 dha masak -  it's not as ridiculous a question as it sounds. user docs are incomplete, so people often wind up looking at the design docs to find answers not covered in the user docs.
21:40 pmurias masak: what's bounded serialization?
21:40 dha Again, I think there's a distant echo in here. :-)
21:40 masak pmurias: it's something Rakudo does to communicate between BEGIN time and runtime.
21:41 masak dha: maybe my distinct lack of backlogging is at fault here. if so, apologies.
21:41 pmurias masak: that's what serialization is ;)
21:41 AlexDaniel masak: although I partially agree with you, I'm not sure why these things can't be on docs.perl6.org. Perhaps not amidst tutorial-ish stuff, but still
21:41 dha masak -  it was a while back. no worries.
21:42 masak pmurias: no arguments there. in Rakudo it's called "bounded serialization" for reasons I either never learned or can't remember.
21:42 dha WRT the differentiation between reference and tutorial, I note that there are several p5 perldocs that are explicitly tutorials. Is there a reason that extensive tutorial material can't be in separate docs?
21:43 masak pmurias: the modifier "bounded" is however not vital to my point, which is: as a non-implementor user, I usually don't have to worry about serialization on the compiler/runtime level. I wouldn't expect to find (much of) it in the user docs.
21:43 AlexDaniel dha: actually, we already have some tutorials here: http://doc.perl6.org/language.html
21:43 dha So, I guess the answer is "no, there is no reason that can't happen". :-)
21:43 pmurias masak: IMHO that depends on the type of a user
21:45 perlpilot masak: it's bounded because we only serialize things in the current compilation unit IIRC.  Even if they reference items in other compilation units.  (or something like that)
21:45 pmurias masak: it seems to me there is a huge difference between learning perl 6 and looking up what happens to your objects at runtime
21:46 perlpilot masak: But, I'm sure if you really care about why it's called "bounded serialization", you can ask jnthn  :)
21:46 RabidGravy isn't that a new document then
21:46 mr-foobar joined #perl6
21:46 Zoffix stmuk, any idea why my blog posts disappeared from pl6anet.org ? I'm guessing my RSS XML is missing some keys.... any idea which?
21:48 pmurias masak: when I want to deeply understand something I have similiar needs to the implementor
21:50 timotimo MadcapJake: i just finished your iterators/generators post. nice :)
21:50 pmurias Zoffix: I love wall of text style perldocs ;)
21:50 AlexDaniel .oO( it would be interesting to have a “GIMME MORE INFO” button. Each time you press it, more stuff appears )
21:51 dha Out of curiosity, why are there quoting adverbs? Are they ever useful? I mean in their ':q', ':w', etc. forms?
21:51 timotimo .o( method pull-a-fast-one ... )
21:52 dha I mean, I can't see a reason to ever use, say, Q :q :w// and I'm not sure how else you would use them.
21:52 timotimo dha: sure there are, if you want to write a string literal that's supposed to contain { }, you can :!c in front and not have to escape the curlies
21:53 timotimo and of course for heredocs you always use the :to adverb
21:53 Zoffix stmuk, never mind. Reading the source tells me I'm missing the modified date https://metacpan.org/source/DAVECROSS/Perlanet-0.56/lib/Perlanet.pm
21:53 dha And you would do that instead of not using curlies as your delimiters... why?
21:53 _dolmen_ joined #perl6
21:53 timotimo not for delimiters
21:53 dha oh, right.
21:53 timotimo m: say q:!c"hey, dha, {how are you?}"
21:53 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«hey, dha, {how are you?}␤»
21:53 timotimo m: say q"hey, dha, {how are you?}"
21:53 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«hey, dha, {how are you?}␤»
21:54 timotimo er, with q that's dumb, of course
21:54 timotimo m: say qq"hey, dha, {how are you?}"
21:54 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/ojeDENk83f␤Bogus postfix␤at /tmp/ojeDENk83f:1␤------> 3say qq"hey, dha, {how are you7⏏5?}"␤    expecting any of:␤        infix␤        infix stopper␤        postfix␤        statement end…»
21:54 timotimo that's what i meant.
21:54 timotimo m: say qq:!c"hey, dha, {how are you?}"
21:54 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«hey, dha, {how are you?}␤»
21:54 dha ok. so the useless ones are there for consistency? :-)
21:55 timotimo they are also how we implement the different quoting constructs
21:55 dha ok. So they should actually be documented somewhere. I'm not tackling that at the moment...
21:55 timotimo but yeah, i suppose, consistency
21:57 dha huh. interesting. Qc works, but Q!c does not. the latter requires the colon while the former does not.
21:58 timotimo yeah, probably because we have a shortcut for that for convenience
21:58 timotimo just like qw
21:58 dha That's... annoying. But quite possibly unavoidable, I suppose.
21:58 masak pmurias: I hear what you're saying -- you're the kind of user who often asks questions similar to what an implementor would.
21:59 masak pmurias: the synopses have often been described as "dry". the reason for this has been that they don't need to be verbose and descriptive to users, only enough for implementors.
22:01 masak to me, "merging" doesn't sound like "combining the strengths of both" in this case. it sounds like "trying to serve two wildly different groups with a single thing"
22:01 dha oop. S02 says if you want to abbreviate quoting constructs, "just define a macro". I feel odd saying "just do this" with something that spits at you with EXPERIMENTAL FEATURE!
22:02 timotimo hehehe
22:06 Sgeo joined #perl6
22:09 dha Ugh. I think we're going to have to define "quote preservation" before I document the difference between :w and :ww. In particular, what counts as a quote in this context.
22:11 masak 'night, #perl6
22:11 Zoffix night
22:12 AlexDaniel m: .say for «aaa /hello world/ »
22:12 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«aaa␤/hello␤world/␤»
22:12 AlexDaniel m: .say for «aaa ‘hello world’ »
22:12 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«aaa␤hello world␤»
22:12 AlexDaniel m: .say for «aaa (hello world) »
22:12 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«aaa␤(hello␤world)␤»
22:12 AlexDaniel m: .say for «aaa «hello world» »
22:12 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«aaa␤«␤hello␤world␤»␤»
22:12 AlexDaniel m: .say for «aaa 「hello world」 »
22:12 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«aaa␤「hello␤world」␤»
22:13 AlexDaniel I have no idea :/
22:13 dha Yes, there are a whole bunch. That's the problem. :-)
22:13 dha I'm going to have to dig into source code, aren't I? :-(
22:13 AlexDaniel m: .say for «aaa ’hello world’ »
22:13 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«aaa␤’hello␤world’␤»
22:14 AlexDaniel m: say ’hello world’
22:14 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«hello world␤»
22:14 kid51 joined #perl6
22:17 dha Also, how the heck do you type a japanese quotation mark on os x?
22:18 MadcapJake timotimo: thanks! Glad you liked it!
22:18 AlexDaniel dha: copy… paste…
22:19 dha Heh.
22:20 dha Well, that does work... :-)
22:20 RabidGravy right that's me done for the day
22:22 Zoffix left #perl6
22:28 adu joined #perl6
22:33 dha Ok, this probably needs some tweaking, particularly with respect to the <> and <<>> operators, but how horrible is this as a first pass?
22:33 dha https://gist.github.com/dha/409794ce0679da81507eaf2602d39374
22:38 slobo joined #perl6
22:44 perlpilot_ joined #perl6
22:44 john51 joined #perl6
22:44 dha Anyway, time to go. I'll look for more input anon.
22:47 dustinm`_ joined #perl6
22:47 pierrot_ joined #perl6
22:47 obfusk_ joined #perl6
22:48 sjn_ joined #perl6
22:48 bonsaikitten joined #perl6
22:48 jdv79_ joined #perl6
22:48 diakopte1 joined #perl6
22:48 El_Che_ joined #perl6
22:48 mls_ joined #perl6
22:49 petercom1and joined #perl6
22:50 boegel|quassel joined #perl6
22:50 kid51 joined #perl6
22:51 lnr joined #perl6
22:51 andrewalker_ joined #perl6
22:52 sQuEE joined #perl6
22:52 sftp_ joined #perl6
22:52 eviltwin_b joined #perl6
22:52 romrador joined #perl6
22:52 Celelibi_ joined #perl6
22:57 xfix joined #perl6
23:04 bjz joined #perl6
23:14 adu joined #perl6
23:16 TreyHarr1 joined #perl6
23:22 AlexDaniel .tell dha now I understand your point about quote protection
23:22 yoleaux AlexDaniel: I'll pass your message to dha.
23:22 AlexDaniel .tell dha I may be wrong, but it looks like you missed the point that under :ww 'hello world' is a single element
23:22 yoleaux AlexDaniel: I'll pass your message to dha.
23:22 AlexDaniel .tell dha anyway, I've left a comment on your gist
23:22 yoleaux AlexDaniel: I'll pass your message to dha.
23:30 Bucciarati joined #perl6
23:31 literal joined #perl6
23:32 avar joined #perl6
23:32 awwaiid joined #perl6
23:33 TeamBlast joined #perl6
23:38 ssotka joined #perl6
23:38 ptolemarch joined #perl6
23:38 khw joined #perl6
23:38 inokenty joined #perl6
23:38 flaviusb joined #perl6
23:39 pnu_ joined #perl6
23:43 eam joined #perl6
23:43 AlexDaniel m: say ‘../foo/..’.IO.resolve
23:43 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«"/home/foo/..".IO␤»
23:43 drvvv joined #perl6
23:44 AlexDaniel m: say ‘../foo/..’.IO.resolve.dir
23:44 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«Failed to get the directory contents of '/home/foo/..': chdir failed: Unknown system error 2␤  in any  at /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/runtime/CORE.setting.moarvm line 1␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/qUE6YGvVTs line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:…»
23:45 musca joined #perl6
23:47 BrassLantern joined #perl6
23:47 BrassLantern joined #perl6
23:54 cpage__ joined #perl6
23:54 MasterDuke AlexDaniel: .resolve currently stops "resolving" and just returns what's left of what it was given when it hits a part of the given path that doesn't exist
23:54 AlexDaniel MasterDuke: I see, that's fine
23:55 AlexDaniel I don't think that it's a bug anymore, I was wrong
23:55 MasterDuke i'd say it's LTA though
23:55 AlexDaniel exactly. That's what I wrote on #128214
23:55 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=128214
23:56 AlexDaniel MasterDuke: so your commit makes it less LTA, right?
23:56 MasterDuke my PR has it fail if it hits something that doesn't exist
23:57 MasterDuke which doesn't contradict the docs or the spectest, i think it's a little better
23:57 AlexDaniel write a test for it and that's -1 ticket
23:58 AlexDaniel m: chdir ‘wat’
23:58 camelia rakudo-moar b348f2: OUTPUT«Failed to change the working directory to '/home/camelia/wat': does not exist␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/bHCBsomLWp line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in any  at gen/moar/m-Metamodel.nqp line 3055␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/bHCBsomLWp line 1␤␤»
23:59 AlexDaniel MasterDuke: ah, I see
23:59 AlexDaniel so you say that .resolve itself should fail?
23:59 AlexDaniel now, I'm not sure :/

| Channels | #perl6 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo