Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2016-06-02

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:36 stevieb is the ENTER 'phaser' suppose to execute on every iteration of a for() loop? I get one "hi" here: perl6 -e 'ENTER {say "hi"}; for 1..3 -> $x {say $x}'
00:38 stevieb docs say: "ENTER {...} #  at every block entry time, repeats on loop blocks.". I would expect it to fire on each loop
00:38 timotimo um ... that enter phaser isn't inside the loop at all
00:38 TimToady what timotimo++ said
00:38 yoleaux 1 Jun 2016 10:21Z <Zoffix> TimToady: would you have time to offer a ruling on what the default tolerance to is-approx in Test.pm6 should be? Is it relative or absolute, and what value? My ideal choice would be absolute with $*TOLERANCE to match ≅. The specs/docs use absolute at 1e-5. And current impl uses relative at 1e-6. My more detailed plan for rewrite of is-approx: https://github.com/zoffixznet/debug/blob/master/mu/approx-rework.md
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00:38 yoleaux 1 Jun 2016 10:31Z <Zoffix> TimToady: sorry, ≅ uses relative tolerance, not absolute, but my ideal choice would still be to match it.
00:38 timotimo m: ENTER { say "outside" }; for 1..3 -> $x { ENTER { say "inside" }; say $x }
00:38 camelia rakudo-moar 069b78: OUTPUT«outside␤inside␤1␤inside␤2␤inside␤3␤»
00:39 stevieb ahhhhh... ok, it goes INSIDE the loop. That explains it lol
00:39 timotimo phasers always apply to the block they're in
00:39 TimToady all phasers go inside, which is why we put CATCH inside its "try" (even if it isn't a try)
00:39 timotimo and for simple statements like 'say "outside"' you don't even need the curlies
00:39 stevieb I misunderstood. I thought it was a global thing, and it would act on ALL loops. Now I know
00:39 timotimo that would certainly be strange. however, it can be done with a slang if you want to have that
00:39 TimToady that's why CATCH can implicitly turn its surrounding block into a "try"
00:40 TimToady well, you can't do that globally, but you could influence the compilation of all loops within a lexical scope
00:41 timotimo "on enter resume next"
00:41 timotimo i expected "global thing" meant "lexically scoped thing"
00:42 TimToady we tend to be a bit picky about the meanings of those terms :)
00:43 stevieb I just jumped too far ahead. I was looking at it like a BEGIN or INIT block in p5, where no matter where its located, it'll always get called at the right time (lexical scope is irrelevant).
00:43 stevieb slowly but surely all of this will come together
00:44 TimToady nodnod
00:47 * TimToady should backlog now, but can't really due to double dose of Novocaine® earlier putting his brane in sideways
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00:49 TimToady two new crowns put a big dent into my day, not to mention my dentist's and his assistant's
00:50 TimToady but had to sneak it in between conferences :)
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00:51 timotimo stevieb: well, BEGIN really fires as soon as the parser finishes its closing curly brace, and all INIT blocks are registered in a per-compilation-unit queue and fire when that compilation unit gets loaded. they still have access to the relevant package and lexical environment, of course
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00:52 MasterDuke TimToady: i've been looking at RT #128210 and i asked about adverbing chained operators in general a couple days ago, but nobody knew of a working example
00:52 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=128210
00:54 MasterDuke then i was looking at the commit where you added the version of ≅ that should allow you to set the tolerance (https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e3c591a1)
00:54 MasterDuke and there don't seem to be any related tests
00:55 MasterDuke and i am curiout what the behavior should be: adverb applies to all uses of ≅ in a chain? or just the left-most of the adverb?
01:00 kalkin- I found a bug in moarvm 2016.05 If i have a Grammar B depending on Grammar A it only compiles cleanly the first time
01:01 kalkin- as soon as i edit Grammar A I get missing or wrong dependency error
01:02 kalkin- if i nuke my moar vm installation and rebuild everything with rakudbrew it works for one time until i edit Grammar A again
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01:02 kalkin- I downgraded to moar 2016.04 and this fixed the issue
01:03 kalkin- It looks like some precompilation cache doesn't get updated in 2016.05 version
01:08 kalkin- I can reproduce the same behavior on the nom branch
01:11 TimToady MasterDuke: iirc, the named argument was really added for internal use as a normal function call, and was never intended to be used in the chaining form; indeed, as you point out, adverbs are problematical in chained syntax anyway
01:13 MasterDuke TimToady: ah ha, so the ticket should be closed as expected behavior?
01:13 jdv79 TimToady lives.  yay.
01:14 * TimToady was off at a conference last week that turned out not to have good connectivity
01:14 jdv79 yay
01:16 TimToady MasterDuke: I don't really consider it a bug, though arguably we should allow adverbs on chaining ops that are not, in fact, being chained
01:17 TimToady or make that a degenerate case of applying an adverb to either all or the last one of the chain
01:17 TimToady so might be worth leaving open for now
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01:18 TimToady if we applied to all, then we could do chained identical ops, and the dispatch failure would catch the attempt to misues the adverb more widely
01:19 TimToady *misuse
01:19 TimToady so I guess I'm vaguely in favor of distributing
01:20 TimToady what I really don't want to see much of is A op1 B :foo op2 C trying to apply :foo to op1
01:21 TimToady though if it can have an allowed meaning and merely be discourage culturally, that's okay I guess
01:22 TimToady guessing is about all I'm good for in my current brane state :)
01:22 TimToady *discouraged
01:22 MasterDuke if you require the adverb to be at the end of a chain and apply to all the operators, would chains with multiple different operators be allowed?
01:22 TimToady that's what I'm saying, it would naturally just fail if you applied an adverb where it wasn't recognized
01:23 TimToady these are functions, not methods, so you can't just pass random named args that will be ignored
01:23 MasterDuke i could imagine confusion if both operators happened to support the same adverb, but it had different meaning to each
01:24 TimToady well, sure, but in the overall scheme of things I'm not worried about that failure mode :)
01:24 TimToady that falls under enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot
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01:27 MasterDuke i'll let you be the rope salesman here and point any fingers in your direction. but i will reply to the ticket linking this chatlog
01:30 TimToady thanks
01:30 * TimToady wanders dinnerward
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02:39 Zoffix .tell AlexDaniel wrote the Multi-Server part of the IRC::Client spec. Not overly happy with having server nicknames as methods, but if someone wants to act on a specific server, I guess there's no way around having an identifier. Gonna hack something up on the weekend to get a feel for it: https://github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-IRC-Client/blob/rewrite/DESIGN/01-main.md#multi-server-interface
02:39 yoleaux Zoffix: I'll pass your message to AlexDaniel.
02:39 Zoffix botsnack
02:39 synopsebot6 om nom nom
02:39 Zoffix Hey! That wasn't for you! Bad bot!
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02:42 BenGoldberg .botsnack
02:42 synopsebot6 om nom nom
02:42 yoleaux :D
02:42 BenGoldberg heh.
02:43 BenGoldberg huggable, botsnack
02:43 synopsebot6 om nom nom
02:43 huggable BenGoldberg, nothing found
02:43 BenGoldberg huggable, botsnack is yummy!
02:43 synopsebot6 om nom nom
02:43 huggable BenGoldberg, nothing found
02:43 BenGoldberg synopsebot6, shush ;)
02:46 TEttinger huggable, hug botsnack
02:46 synopsebot6 om nom nom
02:46 * huggable hugs botsnack
02:49 BenGoldberg IMHO, IRC bots should not respond on a channel, unless a message begins with the bot's nick, or begins with a command (and the command is very unlikely in ordinary conversation, like yoleaux's .whatever, or many other bots' !whatever).
03:15 Xliff Heh.
03:16 Xliff Um. Question. If I want to distribute a file with my Perl6 module, how would I do that? Also... how do I code the module to know how to read it, both when it is installed and when it is in it's module installation dir?
03:24 MasterDuke Xliff: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2016-05-24#i_12539039
03:25 MasterDuke oh, you asked the question that was an answer to. did it not work?
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05:32 Xliff .tell MasterDuke Thanks for the link. I haven't tried that, yet. The module is still under development, and I need to know how %?RESOURCE will work when the file still lives in the module installation directory. I will pursue this further!
05:32 yoleaux Xliff: I'll pass your message to MasterDuke.
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06:30 nine vendethiel: err...no idea. I've had completely forgotten about that question until I read the selected quotes.
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06:45 TEttinger vendethiel: I think I now have the longest streak of anyone I know, of course as soon as Github stops tracking streaks
06:45 TEttinger 719 days, will be 720 in 15 minutes
06:46 TEttinger how long did your epic streak get to?
06:46 TEttinger err that can't be right...
06:48 TEttinger it will be 731 on the 14th, so it should be 718 today, 719 tomorrow
06:49 TEttinger I think I was right the first time...
06:50 TEttinger gah
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06:58 RabidGravy yeah why did GH stop reporting that
06:59 RabidGravy I don't know how long I've been but it's since January 9
07:00 vendethiel TEttinger: congrats. mine was 531. good timing :P
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07:05 TEttinger I thought ven had gotten to 710 or something, wow
07:07 Xliff Dude! My longest streak isn't even 1% of that.
07:07 Xliff <- Jealous!
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07:16 azawawi $good-morning
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07:17 psch Useless use of $good-morning in sink context
07:17 psch :P
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07:27 azawawi :)
07:27 psch "No mainstream language today allows you to write a library to extend its type system." from http://lbstanza.org/purpose_of_programming_languages.html
07:28 psch am i misunderstanding our MOP or does that mean Perl 6 isn't considered mainstream by the author?
07:28 psch ...not that i'd necessarily disagree with that.  the actual point of my question is "can we do that"
07:29 psch actually, what does "extend its type system" *mean* there..?
07:29 RabidGravy I'd have to understand what the author means by "extend its type system"
07:29 RabidGravy hahaha
07:29 psch i was thinking e.g. "forbidding multiple inheritance with a new meta object" fits the bill, but i'm not sure
07:30 psch and i do know we can do that
07:31 psch "The type system of a programming language essentially defines its own subtyping relation, which may well be trivial." from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtyping
07:31 psch so if we can change the subtyping relation - by e.g. forbidding MI - we change the type system
07:32 moritz also, in Perl 6 you can override type checking, afaict
07:32 RabidGravy and the EXPORTHOW stuff allows you to completely change the way it works if you want
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07:36 azawawi do we have anything in Perl 6 that does unicode string normalization (e.g. 'ü'='u', 'ا'='أ')?
07:37 moritz you mean like p5's Text::Unidecode?
07:37 moritz not that I'm aware of
07:38 psch http://hoelz.ro/blog/combining-character-caveats speaks about pretty much exactly that
07:38 psch in short: the neatest way we have is unfortunately NYI
07:39 azawawi moritz: it is used mainly in search to normalize text (for equality) since the user may input ü or u
07:40 psch azawawi: if you have keywords that you want to match you can :ignoremark i thin
07:40 psch k
07:40 psch m: say "föö" ~~ /:ignoremark foo/
07:40 camelia rakudo-moar 069b78: OUTPUT«「föö」␤»
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07:40 * azawawi_ takes a look at Text::Unidecode
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07:42 azawawi_ m: say "أ" ~~ /:ignoremark ا/
07:42 camelia rakudo-moar 069b78: OUTPUT«「أ」␤»
07:42 azawawi_ perfect
07:42 azawawi_ psch++
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07:43 azawawi_ m: say "ه" ~~ /:ignoremark ة/
07:43 camelia rakudo-moar 069b78: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
07:43 azawawi_ not all cases though
07:43 RabidGravy though if one wanted to make an index like that then you'd still want to "normalise"
07:44 azawawi_ m: say "ى" ~~ /:ignoremark ي/
07:44 camelia rakudo-moar 069b78: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
07:44 psch azawawi_: the matcher has to be the mark-less, base grapheme
07:44 psch azawawi_: :ignoremark doesn't mean "ignore the marks i put into the regex", it means "ignore marks in the Str i want to match and only match the base grapheme"
07:45 azawawi i noticed
07:46 azawawi this is one of the problems with Arabic search: you need to normalize before searching
07:48 azawawi and it goes down to the database level where you may need to CREATE FUNCTIONs to normalize
07:49 azawawi basically it is like $user-input.lc == $DB_COL.lc
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08:54 BooK nine: just saw your Inline::Perl[56] talk at gpw2016. loved the message at the end!
09:03 nine BooK: thanks :)
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09:25 BooK do I understand correctly that I can start a project in Perl 6, and leave the db interactions to DBIC via Inline::Perl5 ?
09:25 timotimo yeah, you can
09:25 timotimo i think
09:25 BooK until a Perl 6 DBIC-equivalent is created
09:26 RabidGravy I really ought to start thinking about that
09:30 gregf_ wrt using Perl5 modules from Perl6, should this be all(for e.g if im using DBI): use Inline::Perl5;use DBI::from<Perl5>; #doesn't compile
09:31 timotimo you don't need "use Inline::Perl5"
09:31 RabidGravy because it's :from<Perl5> as an adverb to use
09:31 timotimo yeah, only a single colon there
09:31 psch isn't it an adverb to the module?
09:31 gregf_ yay
09:31 psch as in 'use DBI:from<Perl5>' and not 'use DBI :from<Perl5>'
09:32 RabidGravy dunno, never used it
09:32 gregf_ hmm spaces and extra colons :|
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09:32 gregf_ works!
09:32 gregf_ can call ruby and python as well :)
09:33 gregf_ thanks!
09:34 timotimo and lua, too
09:35 gregf_ er, well, thats almost like perl5
09:35 gregf_ btw, can i include switches in Perl6?
09:36 psch what kind of switches?
09:36 gregf_ like so in Perl5 i can do -I<lib1> -I<lib2> or PERL5LIB
09:36 psch did you try --help? :)
09:36 gregf_ perl6 -e -I~/PERL/DBICSCHEMA/ 'use HERMESSCHEMA:from<Perl5>; #like that
09:37 gregf_ psch++ ;)
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09:40 nine And I thought another talk about Inline::Python wouldn't be worth it. But finally having a decent video recording makes all the difference :)
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09:45 timotimo oh, a talk about inline::python? i missed that one
09:45 nine Err...I meant Inline::Perl5
09:53 RabidGravy well that's the first time I've tried it but "use Emitria::Schema:from<Perl5>" works fine
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09:57 gregf_ was trying this: *doesnt seem to work in Perl6*
09:57 gregf_ perl -le 'use JSON::XS;my $json = decode_json("{ \"one\" : 1 , \"two\" : 2 }");print $json; #perl5
09:58 gregf_ perl6 -e 'use JSON::XS:from<Perl5>;my $json = decode_json("{ \"one\" : 1 , \"two\" : 2 }");say $json; #does'nt
09:58 gregf_ anyways *work now*
09:59 RabidGravy that' s because of the quotes and the curlies
09:59 RabidGravy it's still Perl6
10:00 timotimo right, curlies interpolate in " quotes
10:00 timotimo not in ', though
10:00 gregf_ ah - i see
10:00 RabidGravy perl6 -e 'use JSON::XS:from<Perl5>;my $json = decode_json(q"{ \"one\" : 1 , \"two\" : 2 }");say $json;'
10:00 RabidGravy {one => 1, two => 2}
10:03 RabidGravy hahaha, brilliant
10:03 RabidGravy perl6 -e 'use lib:from<Perl5> <lib>; use Emitria::Schema:from<Perl5>'
10:03 RabidGravy I hadn't realised that would work until just now
10:07 nine RabidGravy: well it did need a fix in rakudo back in July ;)
10:07 nine RabidGravy: though the CompUnit::Repository structure would have fixed it as well just a couple months later.
10:09 RabidGravy I may then just flip the rest of Emitria to Perl 6 and just make a wafer thin facade over the schema part
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10:23 RabidGravy right! supermarket!
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10:39 xtreak I get "Can't exec "git": Too many levels of symbolic links" while running 'rakudobrew build moar' , "Failed running git fetch"
10:45 psch xtreak: i'd guess removing ~/.rakudobrew (i think?) probably helps
10:45 psch xtreak: of course you have redo any init thingies rakudobrew might do
10:45 psch i don't use it all, so i don't really know :S
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11:24 BooK so I was looking for some logo implementation to show and teach my kids (and more importantly let them experiment and play with it, without the need for help/supervision)
11:25 BooK and most of the stuff I found wasn't so nice (in-browser stuff, or not extradinary text ui)
11:25 BooK so I was wondering, how hard would it be to make a logo implementation in perl6?
11:26 BooK or maybe there's one already?
11:27 BooK I mean showing the result of "repeat 6 [ forward 50 arc 360 50 left 60 ]" got me pretty amazed OHHs and AAHs
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11:34 DrForr BooK: There's not one that I'm aware of, but let me find a parser tutorial you mght find helpful :)
11:35 BooK I was already thinking about parsing logo into postscript for the print functions :-)
11:35 DrForr http://theperlfisher.blogspot.ro/2016/02/from-regular-expressions-to-grammars-pt.html
11:36 DrForr You'll want to jump into part 3 thoguh.
11:36 DrForr *though
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11:41 finanalyst Can't get DBIish to install. Are there system dependencies that must be installed first? I'm running Ubuntu 16.04.
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11:46 pmurias hi
11:47 jnthn hi pmurias
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12:01 nine finanalyst: probably. Any error messages you get might help us help you
12:01 finanalyst nine: thanks. whats the best way? Several error messages in the test suite.
12:02 finanalyst I installed with panda now with --force and --notests
12:02 finanalyst But nothing in documentation about system dependents
12:02 nine finanalyst: post the full output on gist.github.com
12:04 finanalyst nine: https://gist.github.com/finanalyst/202f079c2fa2a239342d3067709e4bad
12:11 nine finanalyst: could be that DBIish still requires libmysqlclient to be installed
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12:15 finanalyst nine: also pq?
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12:21 nine finanalyst: maybe. Though I feel like I'm missing something here. I surely hope that DBIish does not require you to have libraries for all drivers available
12:21 finanalyst nine: it looks like that to me.
12:22 finanalyst i just installed mysqlclient and got a whole lot more tests passing.
12:22 finanalyst Does panda run the whole test suite before installing, or does it runs a subset?
12:23 finanalyst there is no 'panda test <module-name>' option, so I assume that to rerun tests requires running prove in the module
12:24 finanalyst directory
12:24 stevieb I'm very curious to know if the pg and orcl messages were simply warnings or actual failures. It looks like only mysql failed, but I just started in p6, and haven't read up on testing yet, and any differences between p5 and p6
12:30 finanalyst Since Im most interested in SQLite, I tried the example there. Got DBDish::SQLite::Connection.disconnect is DEPRECATED, please use .dispose  in block <unit> at ./sqlite.p6 line 49
12:30 finanalyst So example is out of date?
12:31 nine t/lib/Test/DBDish.pm6 line 55 suggests that the tests should be skipped when a driver is unable to connect
12:35 stevieb yep. that's what it looked like to me for the other two in the results. Can you manually download the distribution (if that's what it's called in Perl6), rename that test file to eg: 10-mysql.t.no-run or something, and see if it'll work then? From the dist dir: "panda install ."
12:43 finanalyst as I said. I have installed the module. Used 'panda --force --notests DBIish'
12:44 finanalyst Installed SQLite  and got the example working.
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12:45 stevieb ahhh ok, I misread that it was successfully installed. I'll get my feet wet with playing with a failing module install in a little while. It'll help me understand writing tests for when I need to do it :)
12:45 stevieb if it is just a case of a missing skip, I'll attempt at a fix and create my first p6 PR
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12:56 nine ++stevieb
13:13 kalkin- FYI: It's not possible to install Task::Star with zef, it fails building Linenoise
13:13 kalkin- Same works fine with panda
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13:41 Vish_ Hi
13:41 Vish_ Does anyone know when the official perl 6 book is gonna be released?
13:42 perlpilot Vish_: if you mean "Programming Perl 6", not for a while yet.
13:42 Vish_ Any timelines available?
13:43 Vish_ I'm looking for a good material to learn perl 6.
13:43 perlpilot Vish_: you'd have to talk with TimToady about that.   If I were to guess though, I'd say next year at the earliest.
13:43 Vish_ Something on the lines of learning perl or the camel book.
13:43 perlpilot Vish_: perl6.org has some learning resources
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13:44 DrForr There are several efforts underway, and people keep pestering me as well :) Is it maybe time to add a learn.perl6.org domain, if we don't already have one?
13:44 Vish_ How can I contact  timtoady directly?
13:45 perlpilot Vish_: also, you can read the synopses, the docs, the Perl 6 modules, etc. and ask questions here.  We're more than happy to help :)
13:45 Vish_ And learn.perl6 sounds like a good idea.
13:46 perlpilot Vish_: re contacting TimToady ... if you hang out here long enough, you'll eventually be active around the same time he is active.  :)
13:48 Vish_ Hahh. I hope I'll get Lucky someday to talk to larry. Thank u guys. i saw a video where he says this time the book will be a butterfly book coz of camelia. I hope he gets it out soon.
13:48 perlpilot Vish_: Are you a Perl 5 person or just interested in Perl 6?
13:49 DrForr I don't think he's interested in that right now.
13:49 Vish_ I'm a perl 5 person
13:49 perlpilot Vish_: Are you going to YAPC?
13:50 Vish_ I don't if it happening in oz. I'm from sydney.
13:50 DrForr Sydney.pm may be active, have you looked for a local Perl group?
13:50 Vish_ I hope Atleast randall shwartz gets learning perl 6 out.
13:51 Vish_ Nope. Probably I should do that.
13:51 DrForr It won't be him, at least I don't remember him talking about it. (at OSCON)
13:51 Vish_ Or Brian d foy ?
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13:53 ZoffixW Probably not.
13:53 Vish_ I'm running out of options. I hope someone releases a book. :p
13:53 ZoffixW Vish_, there're a couple of non-perl6.org website resources as well: https://learnxinyminutes.com/docs/perl6/   http://perl6intro.com/ and http://perl6.party/
13:54 ZoffixW Vish_, why do you need a book? Perl 6 is a huge language. I think any complete book on the language will be outdated by the time it reaches the printing press.
13:54 ZoffixW Just as CSS and HTML books are
13:54 Vish_ Yes those are the resources I'm currently looking into.
13:55 Vish_ Coz I would like to read the thoughts of the language designer in his own words. Also in a book format information is organised
13:55 Vish_ It's also easier to read from the book.
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13:56 ZoffixW :/
13:56 perlpilot Assuming the book is well-written and well-organized.
13:56 RabidGravy well, I've written 53 Perl 6 modules and I didn't read a book
13:56 gregf_ its easier to fall asleep when reading a book as well *ducks and runs*
13:56 ZoffixW Even if it's well-organized, half of it will talk about features you won't have any (immediate) use for.
13:56 RabidGravy yaw
13:57 gregf_ http://docs.perl6.org/ *is quite good for a start*
13:58 ZoffixW Yeah, the http://docs.perl6.org/language.html part covers a good portion of common things.
13:58 Vish_ Well yes and no. Diff people consume info in diff ways. So some people prefer manuals some books and some videos. So the form doesn't matter. But it's good to have all options to cater to the range.
13:58 RabidGravy the source is pretty good
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13:58 * jnthn enjoyed reading Programming Perl just as a fun thing to read :)
13:58 ZoffixW The only Perl book I ever read is Modern Perl by chromatic
13:59 moritz I liked Higher Order Perl
13:59 RabidGravy all good fun
13:59 perlpilot Vish_: either way, I encourage you to continue hanging out on #perl6 and asking questions.
13:59 gregf_ havent ever read a book on Perl... only code and IRC :)
13:59 moritz and Mastering Regular Expressions, though it's not all perl
14:00 Vish_ Thanks pilot
14:00 * grondilu learnt most of what he knows about perl with the man pages.  Is still hoping there will be something equivalent for perl6 one day.  The closest he can find are the synopses.
14:01 * grondilu likes man pages because he likes to have documentation available on the command line.
14:02 RabidGravy do feel free to make Pod::To::Man
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14:02 nine Looks like I'm completely spoiled by Perl 6 already. Tried to use a my scoped package in Perl 5...
14:03 RabidGravy yeah
14:04 perlpilot nine: I'm always typing P6isms in my P5 code.
14:05 RabidGravy mind I always type Perlisms in C too
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14:06 perlpilot If I coded more C, I'd probably do that too  :)
14:07 perlpilot Years ago, when I was doing C more regularly, I kept trying to use "unless" but that's the only Perlism I can remember using in C
14:08 RabidGravy I go leave out parens a lot
14:08 Juerd When I write C and type "=~" and then realise it doesn't do regexes, I want to just quit and go outside.
14:09 RabidGravy :)
14:09 RabidGravy DrForr, how is Prancer doing?  Haven't looked in a while
14:09 Juerd You just know that the equivalent, no matter how simple, is going to be at least a dozen lines and an annoying loop.
14:09 ZoffixW I use single quotes to avoid accidental interpolation... :(
14:10 Juerd I came from BASIC originally and can't really get used to single quotes. Sometimes I use them for a while but I tend to get back to ""...
14:10 Juerd Even though I first used Perl in 1998...
14:10 Vish_ joined #perl6
14:10 RabidGravy I can't remember the last time I used regcomp()/regexec()
14:11 Vish_ Quick question ppl. Emacs or vim for perl 6 ?
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14:11 ZoffixW Vish_, Atom
14:11 ZoffixW :)
14:11 literal whichever editor you prefer for your other coding, of course
14:11 Vish_ Haha. But my option is only bw Emacs and vim.
14:11 RabidGravy whatever editor you're happiest with
14:12 Vish_ I'm in terms of package support
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14:12 ZoffixW Vish_, well, I know there are vim P6 highlights, if you use them, never heard of ones for emacs.
14:12 literal vim's syntax highlighting is decent, emacs' is incomplete
14:12 RabidGravy I think more people are in favour of vim by a small margin
14:12 DrForr RabidGravy: I'm hoping to get some work in on the weekend, mainly making sure it still works with current Crust/perl6.
14:12 perlpilot Vish_: I use vim
14:13 literal ZoffixW: https://github.com/hinrik/perl6-mode :)
14:13 Vish_ Awesome. Cool. Thanks.
14:13 DrForr I've been focusing on talks and not falling asleep on planes.
14:13 DrForr And currently beating work repos into submission.
14:13 ZoffixW huggable, emacs perl6 :is: https://github.com/hinrik/perl6-mode
14:13 huggable ZoffixW, Added emacs perl6 as https://github.com/hinrik/perl6-mode
14:14 ZoffixW literal, thanks
14:15 Juerd This is probably the only place on the entire internet, where the question 'emacs or vim' does not result in a holy war.
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14:16 RabidGravy DrForr, well it still passes all but one test :)
14:17 stevieb my first Perl6 Pull Request... related to discussion here earlier today where t/10-mysql.t in DBIish was not properly skipping tests: https://github.com/perl6/DBIish/pull/68
14:17 RabidGravy and that is the test being wrong BTW
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14:18 dalek DBIish: 4c04e2e | (Steve Bertrand)++ | t/10-mysql.t:
14:18 dalek DBIish: fixed t/10-mysql.t so it skips properly if mysqlclient not installed
14:18 dalek DBIish: review: https://github.com/perl6/DBIish/commit/4c04e2ea84
14:18 dalek DBIish: a8e1455 | niner++ | t/10-mysql.t:
14:18 dalek DBIish: Merge pull request #68 from stevieb9/mysql_skip_tests
14:18 dalek DBIish:
14:18 dalek DBIish: fixed t/10-mysql.t so it skips properly if mysqlclient not installed
14:18 dalek DBIish: review: https://github.com/perl6/DBIish/commit/a8e1455807
14:19 RabidGravy what larks
14:19 ugexe thats strange, it used to skip for me at one point (never have mysql installed)
14:19 DrForr RabidGravy: Good to hear, I think a wiki will be a nice tiny target to aspire to.
14:20 stevieb It may be that with skip(), it had 85 tests manually set. I didn't look, but it may be that more tests were added later, and that 85 was forgotten about. skip-rest() is likely more future-proof anyhow
14:21 RabidGravy but there's an exit after, it should just complain about the wrong number of tests
14:21 RabidGravy weird
14:23 stevieb good point. As I've said, I just started really learning p6, and haven't even touched testing yet, so I truly don't know what would have been expected.
14:23 pmurias_ joined #perl6
14:24 nine The Pg tests use skip-rest already
14:24 stevieb yep
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15:10 dalek gtk-simple/declare-build-depends: b76117c | ugexe++ | META6.json:
15:10 dalek gtk-simple/declare-build-depends: Declare build-depends
15:10 dalek gtk-simple/declare-build-depends: review: https://github.com/perl6/gtk-simple/commit/b76117c391
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15:41 dalek gtk-simple: b76117c | ugexe++ | META6.json:
15:41 dalek gtk-simple: Declare build-depends
15:41 dalek gtk-simple: review: https://github.com/perl6/gtk-simple/commit/b76117c391
15:41 dalek gtk-simple: 6178e3e | RabidGravy++ | META6.json:
15:41 dalek gtk-simple: Merge pull request #40 from perl6/declare-build-depends
15:41 dalek gtk-simple:
15:41 dalek gtk-simple: Declare build-depends
15:41 dalek gtk-simple: review: https://github.com/perl6/gtk-simple/commit/6178e3e538
15:41 RabidGravy all good
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16:17 AlexDaniel .oO( “diff people” – what, how can you diff people? )
16:17 yoleaux 02:39Z <Zoffix> AlexDaniel: wrote the Multi-Server part of the IRC::Client spec. Not overly happy with having server nicknames as methods, but if someone wants to act on a specific server, I guess there's no way around having an identifier. Gonna hack something up on the weekend to get a feel for it: https://github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-IRC-Client/blob/rewrite/DESIGN/01-main.md#multi-server-interface
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16:30 AlexDaniel .tell Zoffix hmm, so is it 「$.irc.X.quit; $.irc.Y.quit」 or 「$.irc.quit: :servers(X, Y)」?
16:30 yoleaux AlexDaniel: I'll pass your message to Zoffix.
16:32 AlexDaniel .tell Zoffix I am not sure which one is better, but the last one provides an ability to specify multiple servers at once
16:32 yoleaux AlexDaniel: I'll pass your message to Zoffix.
16:36 AlexDaniel .tell Zoffix also, have you thought about throwing an error if e.g. the code says 「$.irc.part: '#perl6';」 but the bot is logged in on #perl6 on multiple servers. Or maybe at least a warning?
16:36 yoleaux AlexDaniel: I'll pass your message to Zoffix.
16:37 ZoffixW joined #perl6
16:37 AlexDaniel Zoffix or maybe it should throw some kind of a warning right when you join the same channel on multiple servers? Or maybe the user may have to :force such actions? I dunno, just brainstorming
16:38 ZoffixW AlexDaniel, :servers() wasn't part of *each* command in what I wrote last night, but yeah, that's a good idea. So basically $.irc.s-whatever.quit is just a shortcut for $.irc.quit: :servers<s-whatever>
16:39 Zoffix .botsnack
16:39 synopsebot6 om nom nom
16:39 yoleaux :D
16:39 yoleaux 16:30Z <AlexDaniel> Zoffix: hmm, so is it 「$.irc.X.quit; $.irc.Y.quit」 or 「$.irc.quit: :servers(X, Y)」?
16:39 yoleaux 16:32Z <AlexDaniel> Zoffix: I am not sure which one is better, but the last one provides an ability to specify multiple servers at once
16:39 yoleaux 16:36Z <AlexDaniel> Zoffix: also, have you thought about throwing an error if e.g. the code says 「$.irc.part: '#perl6';」 but the bot is logged in on #perl6 on multiple servers. Or maybe at least a warning?
16:39 ZoffixW AlexDaniel, I don't think I'd want a warning or error there.
16:41 ZoffixW And the commands that need a server aren't something that'd be commonly used; at least I don't think so. I think common use would be defining something like  method irc-to-me ($msg) {  *inspect message and generate output string*  $msg.reply: $output }
16:41 ZoffixW The multi-server thing is completely invisible in such use.
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16:44 ZoffixW Or maybe forgo the $.irc.s-whatever stuff and just require use of :servers. KISS
16:44 ZoffixW (without :servers, command goes out to all servers)
16:46 AlexDaniel huggable: dunno
16:46 huggable AlexDaniel, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
16:49 ZoffixW m: class IRC { multi method irc-to-me ($msg where $msg.what ~~ /^foo/) {say "you said foo"}; multi method irc-to-me ($msg where $msg.what ~~ /^bar/) {say "here's bar"} }; IRC.new.irc-to-me: class {has $.what = 'foo'}.new; IRC.new.irc-to-me: class {has $.what = 'bar'}.new
16:49 camelia rakudo-moar 069b78: OUTPUT«you said foo␤here's bar␤»
16:49 ZoffixW Oh, this is lovely \o/
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17:47 dalek doc: dc24fbb | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | doc/Type/Dateish.pod:
17:47 dalek doc: Added docs for Dateish.daycount
17:47 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/dc24fbba10
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18:10 tony-o anyone have an example of how to write a sub's signature that is passed as a parameter to nativecall whose signature should receive 'const char**'?  i've tried using CArray, CPointer (both with [Str]) and have also tried using .deref in the body of the sub -
18:10 tony-o i keep ending up with: Internal error: Unwound entire stack and missed handler
18:11 tony-o i'm attempting to port this example in expat to perl6: https://sourceforge.net/p/expat/code_git/ci/master/tree/expat/examples/elements.c#l26
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18:25 grondilu is it reasonable to hope that one day NativeCall will be able to automatically generate sub declarations from C header files?
18:25 sufrostico joined #perl6
18:26 grondilu also I vaguely recall eventually it should be possible to do : 'use someClib:from<C> <funcA funcB>;'
18:27 grondilu or something like that
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18:36 hoelzro o/ #perl6
18:38 hoelzro fun bit of miscellanea: I just, for fun, wrote a little shell pipeline to find out how many statements were uttered by each user in this channel over the logs I've kept - 3 years' worth
18:38 hoelzro and the winner is...
18:39 hoelzro ...timotimo, with 91940 messages!
18:39 TimToady I
18:39 TimToady should
18:39 TimToady write
18:39 TimToady more
18:39 TimToady messages
18:39 hoelzro =)
18:40 tony-o how many behind is TimToady now?
18:41 hoelzro he's in 6th, with 52991
18:41 hoelzro granted, this is just the last three years; I don't know how old this channel is
18:43 perlpilot Registered : Feb 25 16:36:15 2005 (11y 14w 2d ago)
18:43 perlpilot it's that old
18:44 hoelzro so there's a bit of a gap in my logging =P
18:44 tony-o found my answer,  calling .elems after nativecasting the char** to CArray[Str] causes that error ..
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19:08 timotimo holy hell, how did i manage to chat so much
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19:10 mst timotimo: procrastination is an amazing thing
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19:13 geekosaur tony-o, that could be either CArray[Str] or CPointer[Str], because C is annoying. and using one when the code expects the other will usually net you a core dump, natch.
19:13 geekosaur without knowing more about the C code, that's all that can be said
19:14 tony-o geekosaur: yea i figured that and tried both - using the CArray[Str] and then iterating two at a time and checkined 'defined'edness seems to work and that's how they're iterating in one of the extended examples
19:16 tony-o since they're not passing the length of the resulting array or anything anywhere it's a little difficult to tell and '.elems' from the nativecast causes the error which makes more sense now, i suppose
19:16 geekosaur right, so defined check is looking for a nullptr at end of array
19:16 tony-o yessir
19:17 * geekosaur wishes C had a real type system
19:17 tony-o which means i might could release a lib-expat XML parser soon
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19:18 tony-o soon as i hear back from supernovus
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19:29 johnjohn101 hi perl6
19:30 johnjohn101 how's the speed of perl 6 programs coming along these days?
19:32 lizmat johnjohn101: compared to when in the past ?
19:34 johnjohn101 lizmat: can you compare to perl 5 or so?
19:35 lizmat well, that's a bit comparing apples with pears
19:35 johnjohn101 i know
19:35 geekosaur it's faster than it was a month or two ago but still slow. optimizations ongoing
19:35 johnjohn101 geekosaur: thanks
19:35 * geekosaur was watching discussion of another such optimization a couple hours ago
19:35 lizmat how long does it take Perl 5 to load Moose with all the extensions you need to get a similar feature set to Perl 6 ?
19:36 lizmat then again, if you don't need Moose, :-)
19:36 johnjohn101 i don't use moose
19:36 Juerd I really wouldn't use Moose, mostly because of the startup overhead.
19:36 johnjohn101 i really don't use much in the way of OO
19:36 lizmat do you use BigInt ?
19:36 RabidGravy tony-o, look forward to it, XML::Class is somewhat slow due to XML being somewhat inefficient
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19:37 johnjohn101 lizmat: no most of my coding is used for dbi with sqlserver.
19:37 ZoffixW johnjohn101, we actually have a FAQ entry for your question: http://docs.perl6.org/language/faq#Is_Perl_6_fast_enough_for_me%3F
19:37 johnjohn101 my favorite perl lib at the moment is xml::twig!
19:37 lizmat ZoffixW++
19:38 lizmat johnjohn101: then you'll love NativeCall I think
19:38 perlpilot johnjohn101: Just use Inline::Perl5 and you can still have XML::Twig  ;)
19:38 johnjohn101 oh wow
19:39 ZoffixW huggable, Inline::Perl5
19:39 huggable ZoffixW, Inline::Perl5 lets you use most of Perl 5's CPAN from Perl 6. See http://modules.perl6.org/repo/Inline::Perl5 and the talk about the module https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEs1g94qNso
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19:40 RabidGravy anyway, I reckon I can make the functional equivalent of SQL::Abstract in about a third of the code
19:43 ZoffixW johnjohn101, more on the speed thing, including ways you can optimize: http://perl6.party/post/Perl-6-Is-Slower-Than-My-Fat-Momma
19:45 perlpilot RabidGravy: what would be nice would be an SQL::Parser that knows about all of the various database specific syntaxes.
19:47 RabidGravy single grammar with some roles for the dialect parts
19:47 tony-o perlpilot++
19:48 ZoffixW m: role Bar { token dem-digits { \d+ } }; grammar Foo does Bar { token TOP { <dem-digits>+ } }.parse('42').say
19:48 camelia rakudo-moar 069b78: OUTPUT«「42」␤ dem-digits => 「42」␤»
19:48 ZoffixW wow. I didn't know grammars could do roles :o
19:49 RabidGravy there just  classes with a specialised Metaclass
19:49 RabidGravy they're
19:50 mst dem digits dem digits dem ... numeric digits
19:54 xfix perl6: say 4 ∈ [∩]
19:54 camelia rakudo-jvm 40a953: OUTPUT«cannot connect to eval server: Connection refused␤»
19:54 camelia ..rakudo-moar 069b78: OUTPUT«False␤»
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19:56 TimToady m: say 4 ∈ ∅
19:56 camelia rakudo-moar 069b78: OUTPUT«False␤»
19:56 TimToady shorter way to write that :)
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20:01 japhb lizmat: Speaking of ZoffixW's comment about "ways you can optimize", is there a doc somewhere that lists all the things you've been doing to the setting for performance work?  Something like a superset of the commit comment from https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/67d3b69 ....
20:08 lizmat japhb: no, there is not, afaik
20:09 lizmat but a lot of these are nqp/settings specific
20:09 lizmat and many are pretty general, like not setting a flag inside a loop, if you can set it after the loop has finished
20:10 dogbert17 o/ #perl6
20:12 dogbert17 for doc purposes, what is the method Exception.resumable used for?
20:14 dogbert17 the code is short: nqp::p6bool(nqp::istrue(nqp::atkey($!ex, 'resume')));
20:15 lizmat looks like it's a flag on the exception indicating it's resumable ?
20:15 johnjohn101 i guess i can now load rakudo on win64 now?
20:16 dogbert17 lizmat: that would imply that not exceptions are resumable?
20:16 dogbert17 s/not/not all/
20:16 lizmat I guess so, but I'm only assuming myself here...  perhaps timotimo or jnthn have a better idea
20:17 dogbert17 lizmat: thanks, I wonder where they are :)
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20:18 dogbert17 the docs say: " Any exception handled by the user can be resumed ..."  http://doc.perl6.org/language/exceptions#Resuming_of_Exceptions
20:18 timotimo oh?
20:18 timotimo i thought only warnings can be resumed. or perhaps control exceptions?
20:19 dogbert17 timotimo: I have noticed that the docs are wrong occasionally :)
20:21 RabidGravy m: CATCH { default { $_.resume } }; die "foo"; say "alive"
20:21 camelia rakudo-moar 069b78: OUTPUT«alive␤»
20:21 dogbert17 it's alive
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20:23 timotimo oh
20:23 timotimo well, ok then :)
20:24 dogbert17 m: CATCH { default { $_.resume if $_.resumable } }; die "foo"; say "alive"
20:24 camelia rakudo-moar 069b78: OUTPUT«This representation (VMException) does not support associative access (for type BOOTException)␤  in block  at /tmp/L0ZqgLtVYP line 1␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/L0ZqgLtVYP line 1␤␤»
20:24 timotimo whoops :)
20:24 dogbert17 WAT
20:27 dogbert17 maybe I should hold on documenting this :)
20:29 dogbert17 if everything that can be caught is resumable then why do we have this method I wonder
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20:30 psch hm, do we need a new nqp op for VMException.resumable..?
20:30 psch 'cause (at least on nqp-j) that's just a field in the VMExceptionInstance
20:31 psch oh, or is VMException visible in src/core/Exception.pm and we can just getattr..?
20:44 * [Coke] wanders onto IRC a little late today.
20:44 timotimo dogbert17: try resuming an "invalid argument" exception :)
20:44 timotimo m: sub foo(Int $bar) { say "alive" }; CATCH { default { .resume } }; foo("hello"); say "yo";
20:44 camelia rakudo-moar 069b78: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/Sga19G_osm␤Calling foo(Str) will never work with declared signature (Int $bar)␤at /tmp/Sga19G_osm:1␤------> 3live" }; CATCH { default { .resume } }; 7⏏5foo("hello"); say "yo";␤»
20:44 timotimo oh, haha
20:44 timotimo good job, compiler
20:45 timotimo m: sub foo(Int $bar) { say "alive" }; CATCH { default { .resume } }; foo(now ~ "hello"); say "yo";
20:45 camelia rakudo-moar 069b78: OUTPUT«yo␤»
20:45 timotimo ^- can't be resumed, at least not into the sub
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20:53 lizmat .tell pmurias this could be of interest ?  https://zeit.co/blog/async-and-await
20:53 yoleaux lizmat: I'll pass your message to pmurias.
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21:00 timotimo how do i debug nativecall
21:01 jjido joined #perl6
21:02 timotimo what the ... even when the sub in question isn't native ...
21:03 timotimo oh, derp
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21:07 AlexDaniel hoelzro: how many of these messages were sent because timotimo was talking to himself?
21:08 timotimo probably a whole many
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21:29 frankdaza Hi everyone. ¿Is there a web framework 100% compatible for Perl 6 ?
21:33 RabidGravy there are web frameworks, not sure what "100% compatible" means
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21:34 RabidGravy Bailador, Crust, possibly others
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21:50 dogbert17 There's a tap example at http://doc.perl6.org/type/Tap which does not work. Does the Supply have to come from a Supplier instead of created by Supply.new?
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21:53 gfldex m: my $s   = Supplier.new; my $tap = $s.Supply.tap( -> $v { say "the value is $v" }, done    => { say "Supply is done" }, closing => { say "Tap closed" }, quit    => -> $ex { say "Supply finished with error $ex" }, ); $tap.close;
21:53 camelia rakudo-moar d080d3: ( no output )
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22:00 dogbert17 gfldex: many thanks, do you want to change the docs or should I?
22:01 gfldex dogbert17: take it pls
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22:01 RabidGravy dogbert17, yes, or could be created by supply { } or from-list or something
22:01 dogbert17 gfldex: consider it done
22:02 dogbert17 RabidGravy: thx to you as well
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22:12 dalek doc: 574fb4d | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | doc/Type/Tap.pod:
22:12 dalek doc: Fixed broken code example. gfldex++ for the code
22:12 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/574fb4dc6e
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