Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2016-06-15

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:00 lambd0x timotimo: hm, so what would be a better option in your opinion? Parrot or JVM?
00:00 timotimo you can't use parrot for a rakudo any more at all
00:00 timotimo we dropped support over a year ago if i'm not mistaken
00:01 lambd0x Oh I see, it got limited to project at some point then?
00:02 timotimo one reason we ported rakudo to the JVM was to rely on its mature multi-threading support so we could design proper multi-threading stuff for rakudo
00:02 timotimo after that we built the port to MoarVM, which also has multi-threading features based on what we learned
00:02 timotimo parrot also has multi-threading features, but nobody put the work in to make rakudo make use of it
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00:05 lambd0x Understood. Quite peculiar the way things end up :). That's nice really. Oh, so right now the optimizations you said that are being development, is to improve Raduko with MoarVM to the point where it gets stabvle
00:05 lambd0x *stable?
00:06 timotimo these optimizations are for performance only. less memory usage, less CPU time usage, less contention on locks and resources when multi-threading and doing async I/O
00:06 timotimo stability improvements happen all the time, but moarvm has been considered stable for a long time now
00:07 timotimo there are still bugs, of course. you can still make it crash in some ways, of course
00:09 lambd0x :) Nice so even learning/clashing the language I might end up helping you guys somehow
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00:12 lambd0x So I think I'll get the compiler with MoarVM so that I can give feedback. Although I don't know it portage's version is current with the language dev.
00:16 timotimo it's easy to figure out, since we name our versions after year and month
00:16 timotimo so if you have 2015.03, you're far out of date
00:16 timotimo if you get 2016.06, you're faster than everybody else! :)
00:16 timotimo just run perl6 --version and you'll see what your version is
00:21 lambd0x almost timotimo, it is currently 2016/05
00:21 timotimo perfect
00:22 timotimo This is Rakudo version 2016.05-145-gac0dcdd built on MoarVM version 2016.05-34-gfbe9e24  <-  you can't get newer than this at the moment
00:24 lambd0x I see. here is "version 2016.05 built on MoarVM version 2016.05"
00:25 timotimo then you have a released version, and i have an in-development version
00:25 timotimo i'll go to bed soon, but i wish you the best of luck with perl6 :)
00:26 timotimo http://perl6.org/downloads/  -  the "introductory material" on the right of this page is good
00:26 lambd0x timotimo: Man you helped me a lot really. Thanks for you time have a good night. o/
00:26 timotimo \o
00:26 lambd0x thanks
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01:12 Xliff_ How can I trace execution in perl6? I am trying to debug and endless loop and am having no luck with the traditional debugging methods.
01:13 jdv79 throw an exception, catch it to print it?
01:13 jdv79 i don't know if we have something like Carp::longmess from p5
01:14 jdv79 maybe i'm wrong - https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Stack_traces#Perl_6
01:15 llfourn you can just say Backtrace.new.gist I think
01:15 llfourn m: say Backtrace.new.gist
01:15 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«Backtrace.new␤»
01:16 llfourn m: say Backtrace.new.Str
01:16 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
01:16 llfourn Backtrace.new.Str*
01:16 jdv79 rosetta suggests .concise
01:16 jdv79 whatever that is
01:16 llfourn m: say Backtrace.new.consise
01:16 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«Method 'consise' not found for invocant of class 'Backtrace'␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
01:16 llfourn m: say Backtrace.new.concise
01:16 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«␤»
01:17 llfourn doesn't seem too useful :P
01:17 jdv79 i guess rosetta needs updating
01:17 llfourn maybe it's better if you have some frames
01:17 llfourn m: sub foo { say Backtrace.new.concise }; foo()
01:17 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«  in sub foo at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
01:18 jdv79 yeah
01:18 jdv79 (self.grep({ !.is-hidden && .is-routine && !.is-setting }) // "\n").join
01:18 llfourn m: sub foo { say Backtrace.new.concise }; sub bar { foo }; bar()
01:18 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«  in sub foo at <tmp> line 1␤  in sub bar at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
01:18 jdv79 that's the method
01:18 Xliff_ Actually, isn't there a command line argument or an environment variable that gives you detailed output on what is happening under the hood?
01:18 llfourn --ll-exception
01:18 Xliff_ Ahh!
01:18 jdv79 uh.  there's --ll-exception for more verbose failures
01:19 llfourn they're more low level rahter than verbose in my experience
01:19 jdv79 idk about something like that for non-exceptional times except if you want to output a profile and dig
01:19 llfourn ie "ll"
01:19 jdv79 bug likely not fun
01:20 Xliff_ Hrm. --ll-exception didn't seem to do anything.
01:20 jdv79 well, verbose in one direction:)
01:20 jdv79 are you throwing exceptions?
01:20 Xliff_ Nope
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01:20 llfourn .oO( what do you think the ll means in llfourn )
01:20 jdv79 then... that won't be helpful
01:20 Xliff_ Endless loop. I'm trying to figure out why.
01:20 jdv79 could you show the code?
01:21 Xliff_ Not really. It'
01:21 jdv79 the Backtrace class seems like your friend here
01:21 Xliff_ It's test code and it's got several modules.
01:21 Xliff_ I'm suspecting it's Nativecall code, but I have no idea where.
01:21 jdv79 why is it called backtrace?  isn't stacktrace more conventional.
01:21 llfourn Xliff_: are you sure it's a loop? There seems to be a bug I'm hitting where when rakudo throws an exception it hangs forever and never shows it.
01:21 Xliff_ So to show the code, I'd have to give you everything
01:21 llfourn I haven't golfed it yet
01:21 llfourn but it's something to do with typechecking parameters I think
01:21 Xliff_ llfourn, actually....that's a possibility.
01:22 llfourn it's quite annoying :(
01:23 Xliff_ I'm getting this a lot -- "Internal error: zeroed target thread ID in work pass"
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01:23 jdv79 hmm.  interesting.  wonder what %*ENV<RAKUDO_VERBOSE_STACKFRAME> does....
01:23 llfourn :S that sounds bad
01:23 jdv79 Bastrace.Str seems to look at it
01:23 jdv79 *Backtrace
01:23 llfourn it's probably -ll-exeception?
01:23 jdv79 ah
01:24 Xliff_ *sigh*
01:24 Xliff_ I finally isolated the call. It's in new code I just finished today.
01:25 Xliff_ Wheee
01:25 Xliff_ Pointer manipulation.
01:25 Xliff_ jdv79, THAT'S it!
01:25 Xliff_ %*ENV<RAKUDO_VERBOSE_STACKFRAME> <-- setting this will have rakudo send all of its operations to stdout.
01:26 jdv79 are you sure that helps?
01:26 llfourn oh cool?
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01:27 Xliff_ Hrm. Dammit. I thought that was it.
01:28 Xliff_ Damn. No, that's not it. It's something close to that, though.
01:29 Xliff_ I will have to scour rakudo code to find that option now. It's bothering meee.
01:30 jdv79 are you sure it exists?
01:31 Xliff_ I remember using it once.
01:31 Xliff_ It printed everything the compiler and VM was doing.
01:32 Xliff_ However "remember using it" !=:= "how to invoke it"
01:32 Xliff_ Which kills me.
01:32 jdv79 maybe its a moarvm thing
01:32 Xliff_ Probably.
01:32 Xliff_ At any rate, I finally have a place to start. It's probably in my converted XS code.
01:32 Xliff_ Which I am in no mood to debug, right now.
01:33 Xliff_ Thanks for the help!
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01:46 timotimo Xliff_: you can run perl6-gdb-m, hit ctrl-c at a random point, go "up" until you have a frame where the "tc" variable is available (almost always the first parameter to a function) and then "print MVM_dump_backtrace(tc)"
01:46 timotimo and then "c" to continue running and ctrl-c again
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01:47 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
01:48 timotimo also, there's "use trace", which isn't working 100% great
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01:49 jdv79 is it 100% good?
01:50 jdv79 which translates to much great then?
01:50 jdv79 s/much/how much/
01:50 timotimo it's sometimes very strange
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02:49 tony-o it's watermelons good
02:50 tony-o mature fruit, also known as a vine-like (scrambler and trailer) flowering the crop. The fruit,
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03:14 timeless .tell AlexDaniel sounds like the right problem and the right solution
03:14 yoleaux timeless: I'll pass your message to AlexDaniel.
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03:17 dalek doc/eval-desc-grammar: 1b3676a | (Josh Soref)++ | doc/Type/Cool.pod:
03:17 dalek doc/eval-desc-grammar: fix EVAL desc grammar
03:17 dalek doc/eval-desc-grammar: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/1b3676af1d
03:18 dalek doc: 1b3676a | (Josh Soref)++ | doc/Type/Cool.pod:
03:18 dalek doc: fix EVAL desc grammar
03:18 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/1b3676af1d
03:19 dalek doc: 26365b9 | (Josh Soref)++ | type-graph.txt:
03:19 dalek doc: Add order to typegraph
03:19 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/26365b9f1a
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03:31 travis-ci Doc build passed. Josh Soref 'fix EVAL desc grammar'
03:31 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/137692297 https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/1b3676af1dee
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03:35 travis-ci Doc build passed. Josh Soref 'Add order to typegraph'
03:35 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/137692478 https://github.com/perl6/d​oc/compare/typegraph-order
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03:39 sammers_ good afternoon from Japan
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04:00 grondilu kon icha wa
04:01 * grondilu has no idea if that's how one writes it but whatev
04:01 grondilu "ichi" instead of "icha" for sure though
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04:50 timeless こんにちは
04:50 timeless 今日は
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06:03 timeless m: $a = '/a/b#c'; say "hi" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)[#(.*)|]!;
06:03 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Variable '$a' is not declared␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3<BOL>7⏏5$a = '/a/b#c'; say "hi" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-␤»
06:04 timeless m: my $a = '/a/b#c'; say "hi" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)[#(.*)|]!;
06:04 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Regex not terminated.␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3$a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)[#(.*)|]!;7⏏5<EOL>␤Regex not terminated.␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3$a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)[#(.*)|]!;7⏏5<EOL>␤Unable to parse expression in…»
06:05 timeless m: my $a = '/a/b#c'; say "hi" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)[#(.*)|]!;
06:05 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Regex not terminated.␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3$a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)[#(.*)|]!;7⏏5<EOL>␤Regex not terminated.␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3$a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)[#(.*)|]!;7⏏5<EOL>␤Unable to parse expression in…»
06:05 * timeless realizes that the blue is from the irc client channel linkifier
06:06 timeless m: my $a = '/a/b#c'; say "hi" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)(#(.*)|)!;
06:06 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Regex not terminated.␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3$a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)(#(.*)|)!;7⏏5<EOL>␤Regex not terminated.␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3$a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)(#(.*)|)!;7⏏5<EOL>␤Unable to parse expression in…»
06:06 timeless m: my $a = '/a/b#c'; say "hi" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)!;
06:06 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«hi␤»
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06:06 timeless m: my $a = '/a/b#c'; say "hi <$0><$1><$2>" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)!;
06:06 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«Use of Nil in string context  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤hi </a/><b><>␤»
06:06 timeless m: my $a = '/a/b#c'; say "hi <$0><$1><$2>" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)()!;
06:06 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Null regex not allowed␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3<$2>" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)(7⏏5)!;␤    expecting any of:␤        infix stopper␤»
06:06 timeless m: my $a = '/a/b#c'; say "hi <$0><$1><$2>" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)(.*)!;
06:06 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«hi </a/><b><#c>␤»
06:07 timeless m: my $a = '/a/b#c'; say "hi <$0><$1><$2>" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)(#(.*))!;
06:07 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Regex not terminated.␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3 $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)(#(.*))!;7⏏5<EOL>␤Regex not terminated.␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3 $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)(#(.*))!;7⏏5<EOL>␤Unable to parse expression in…»
06:07 timeless m: my $a = '/a/b#c'; say "hi <$0><$1><$2>" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)([#](.*))!;
06:07 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Regex not terminated.␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)([#](.*))!;7⏏5<EOL>␤Regex not terminated.␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)([#](.*))!;7⏏5<EOL>␤Unable to parse expression in…»
06:07 timeless m: my $a = '/a/b#c'; say "hi <$0><$1><$2>" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)(<#>(.*))!;
06:07 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter < (must be quoted to match literally)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3$2>" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)(<​7⏏5#>(.*))!;␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter # (must be quoted to match literally)␤at <tm…»
06:08 timeless m: my $a = '/a/b#c'; say "hi <$0><$1><$2>" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)(<[#]>(.*))!;
06:08 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«hi </a/><b><#c>␤»
06:08 timeless m: my $a = '/a/b#c'; say "hi <$0><$1><$2>" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)[<[#]>(.*)]!;
06:08 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«hi </a/><b><c>␤»
06:08 timeless is that really how i'm supposed to write this?
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06:16 timeless m: my $a = '/a/b#c'; say "hi <$0><$1><$2>" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)[<[#]>(.*) || ]!;
06:16 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Null regex not allowed␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)[<[#]>(.*) || 7⏏5]!;␤    expecting any of:␤        infix stopper␤»
06:16 timeless that's unhelpful
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06:47 masak morning, #perl6
06:52 dalek doc: 5fe50f7 | parabolize++ | doc/Type/Capture.pod:
06:52 dalek doc: Corrections in Capture doc (#598)
06:52 dalek doc:
06:52 dalek doc: * Change delimiters on formatted code
06:52 dalek doc:
06:52 dalek doc: * Parenthesize single numeric value
06:52 dalek doc:
06:52 dalek doc: example code generates warnings of potential difficulties
06:52 dalek doc:
06:52 dalek doc: * Update Capture.pod
06:52 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/5fe50f78a4
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06:55 melezhik Hi all! I have a perl6 HASH ; my %h1 = 'apples' => 3, 'oranges' => 7;  my $s = 'apples'; how can I get %h apples value ? seems like %a<$s> does not work?
06:56 gfldex m: my %h = 'apples' => 3, 'oranges' => 7; my $s = 'apples'; dd %h<<$s>>;
06:56 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«(3,)␤»
06:59 gfldex m: my %h = 'apples' => 3, 'oranges' => 7; my $s = 'apples'; dd %h{$s};
06:59 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«Int %h = 3␤»
07:00 gfldex melezhik: see http://doc.perl6.org/language/subscripts
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07:05 moritz melezhik: {} is for subscripting with expressions, <> for subscripting with literal strings
07:06 gfldex m: my %h = 'apples' => 3, 'oranges' => 7; my $s = 'apples'; dd %h<apples oranges>;
07:06 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«(3, 7)␤»
07:06 gfldex lists of literal strings
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07:09 melezhik gfldex, mortiz - sounds good!, thanks
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07:13 RabidGravy MARNIN!
07:13 grondilu moinz
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07:33 dalek doc: 0feafb2 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Hash.pod:
07:33 dalek doc: improve Hash, provide link to subscripts
07:33 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/0feafb28b9
07:33 gfldex melezhik++ # for asking the right question
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08:09 masak gradual insight about language creation: it's not always clear when you're arguing a great feature for your language, or when you have an axe to grind. from inside your head, the latter often looks like the former.
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08:21 melezhik gfldex: :))
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09:29 dalek doc: e5d4cfb | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Hash.pod:
09:29 dalek doc: forgot to remove old example
09:29 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/e5d4cfbde9
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09:37 azawawi hi
09:38 azawawi RabidGravy: pong
09:38 azawawi RabidGravy: $pong.flip
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09:52 melezhik Hi guys! Does anybody know a proper perl6 YAML parser? I need to convert perl6 hashes into YAML ... Thanks ...
09:53 azawawi http://modules.perl6.org/#q=YAML   ?
09:54 azawawi melezhik: http://modules.perl6.org is your friend. Type and it will autocomplete your query :)
09:55 melezhik unfortunatelly a candidates found quite raw ... not stable
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09:59 gregf_ melezhik: you can also use Inline::Perl5. but yeah, pure Perl6 would be better
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10:02 gregf_ m: https://gist.github.com/anonymous​/018007d537313e3db54e74072e91ee33
10:02 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter ; (must be quoted to match literally)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3m = Module.new7⏏5; p m.methods; m.send(:define_method, :h␤Couldn't find terminator = (corresponding = was at line 1)␤at <tmp>:1␤…»
10:02 gregf_ bah :/
10:02 gregf_ m: https://gist.github.com/anonymous​/6101f317348189a1b6681e4da2919477
10:02 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find Inline::Perl5 at line 3 in:␤    /home/camelia/.perl6␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/site␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/vendor␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6␤    CompUnit:…»
10:03 gregf_ m: use Inline::Perl5;use YAML::XS:from<Perl5>;my $h = { "foo" => [1,2,3,4], "bar" => 100  };say Dump($h);
10:03 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find Inline::Perl5 at line 1 in:␤    /home/camelia/.perl6␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/site␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/vendor␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6␤    CompUnit:…»
10:04 RabidGravy boo!
10:05 lizmat hiss!
10:05 gregf_ *runs*
10:07 RabidGravy melezhik, I think you will find that a large proportion of the ecosystem is fairly raw and unstable due to the relative immaturity of the whole ecosystem
10:08 RabidGravy melezhik, as a rule of thumb it's either use what you find and help improve it or write something better yourself
10:08 RabidGravy azawawi, WAKEY WAKEY
10:09 azawawi RabidGravy: im sleepy lol
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10:09 azawawi RabidGravy: new rig 'i7 6700' eats 'rakudobrew build moar' parse stage in 42 secs :)
10:10 RabidGravy coolio
10:10 azawawi RabidGravy: vs ~70 sec for amd fx-8150
10:11 azawawi RabidGravy: 35% on multi thread, 25% on single thread performance difference
10:11 azawawi RabidGravy: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​ac0dcddb11e42be4aafe0417da98b109116bd602 improved GTK::Simple performance considerably
10:12 azawawi RabidGravy: FROGGS++
10:14 RabidGravy coo, I saw that one go in a wondered about that
10:14 RabidGravy FROGGS++ indeed
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10:15 melezhik RabidGravy : Ok , sure ))
10:15 RabidGravy may have to re-run "test all the things" to see if I see an improvement with a broad set of NC modules
10:16 RabidGravy the burden of being an "early adopter"
10:18 azawawi RabidGravy: .precomp was like 42 MB
10:18 gfldex the docs say that %-sigiled containers got the Hash as a default type. That could be understood as if the default could be changed. Is that possible (without roles)?
10:19 azawawi RabidGravy: now it is 4MB
10:19 jnthn m: my %h is SetHash; %h<a>++; say %h.perl
10:19 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«SetHash.new("a")␤»
10:20 gfldex i shall doc that
10:21 gfldex m: my %h is SetHash = oranges => 'round'; %h<a>++; say %h.perl
10:21 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable SetHash␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
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10:23 gfldex m: my %h is SetHash = { oranges => 'round' };
10:23 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable SetHash␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
10:24 jnthn SetHash/BagHash/MixHash don't implement STORE, afaik, so you can't assign them. I think we probably could implement that...
10:25 moritz aren't some of those intentially read-only?
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10:26 masak moritz: not the Hash types
10:26 psch m: my $h = SetHash.new(<a b>); $h<c>++; say $h.perl
10:26 camelia rakudo-moar ac0dcd: OUTPUT«SetHash.new("a","c","b")␤»
10:26 masak moritz: Set/Bag/Mix are all immutable
10:26 jnthn Right, those certainly shouldn't get a STORE
10:26 moritz ok, good
10:30 RabidGravy while we're on the subject of "is"ing containers, I'm actually surprised that no-one has freaked it about "my @a is Hash" (and friends)
10:31 RabidGravy if nothing else it makes it more complicated to explain aggregate containers and their respective sigils
10:31 jnthn That probably should be a type error
10:31 lizmat well, that's part of the malleability of Perl 6, no ?
10:31 jnthn (Hash isn't Positional)
10:31 jnthn m: my @a is Hash
10:31 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: ( no output )
10:32 jnthn Hm, yeah, that's busted
10:32 RabidGravy and also
10:32 jnthn m: my @a is Hash; say @a ~~ Positional
10:32 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«False␤»
10:32 RabidGravy m: my %a is Array
10:32 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: ( no output )
10:32 masak nine: was it you who fixed the precomp trouble?
10:32 jnthn Yeah, it'll be the same place that wants fixing.
10:32 masak nine: I just want to say that it's much better now. thank you. <3
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10:33 lizmat glfdex: in a Set we only have keys basically, what should happen to the values ???
10:34 lizmat m: my %h is SetHash; %h<a> = 5; dd %h   # jnthn: you *can* assign to SetHashes
10:34 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«SetHash.new("a")␤»
10:35 jnthn lizmat: No
10:35 jnthn lizmat: You can assign to *elements* of SetHashes
10:35 jnthn That's different.
10:35 lizmat ah, you mean:
10:35 jnthn (The assignment is actually to a Scalar container bound into a SetHash)
10:35 lizmat m: my %h is SetHash = <a b c d>
10:35 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable SetHash␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
10:35 jnthn Right
10:36 jnthn Though if that one works it'll discard b and d presumably
10:36 psch m: my %h is SetHash .= new: <a b c d>
10:36 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable SetHash␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
10:36 lizmat well, there you go: that's not what I expecred
10:36 lizmat $ted
10:36 jnthn Though would be good for TimToady to weigh in on that.
10:36 lizmat yeah
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10:37 jnthn It'd be the consistent thing for assigning to something with a % sigil...as usual, we have to pick the consistency we want :)
10:38 * masak .oO( we're good at picking consistencies, we're just not very consistent about it )
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10:41 nine masak: FROGGS++ fixed the part that probably hurt you. I fixed issues on archaic file systems like FAT32 and HFS+
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10:48 dalek doc: de1690d | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Type/Capture.pod:
10:48 dalek doc: Fix typo mentioned in #598
10:48 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/de1690df98
10:48 masak ok, in that case, FROGGS++
10:49 masak oh right, now I remember. FROGGS++ even announced his fix on the #6macros channel.
10:52 masak TIL that there are two numbers.Integral types in Python 3: int, and bool
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11:12 dalek doc: 0ba409e | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/variables.pod:
11:12 dalek doc: show how to change default type for %-sigiled containers
11:12 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/0ba409ee04
11:22 dalek doc: 0e7dd37 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/variables.pod:
11:22 dalek doc: add is for container type to index
11:22 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/0e7dd371c5
11:22 dalek doc: c251707 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/testing.pod:
11:22 dalek doc: better index entry for is (testing)
11:22 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/c251707f94
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11:44 AlexDaniel .
11:44 yoleaux 03:14Z <timeless> AlexDaniel: sounds like the right problem and the right solution
11:45 AlexDaniel timeless: let's just hope that there is a right way to implement it, liz has some doubts about this one :)
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12:13 literal if I want [<foo bar>, <baz quux>] without flattening, is there an easier way than adding .List to the end of each list?
12:14 psch literal: what's the context?  are you return from some sub or..?
12:15 literal no, I just want to pass an array of lists (or arrays) as an argument to something
12:15 gfldex m: my @a; @a[0] = $('foo', 'bar'); @a[1] = $('baz', 'quux'); dd @a;
12:15 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«Array @a = [("foo", "bar"), ("baz", "quux")]␤»
12:15 psch m: sub f(+@args) { say @args.perl }; f [<foo bar>, <baz quux>]
12:15 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«[("foo", "bar"), ("baz", "quux")]␤»
12:16 gfldex m: sub f(@args) { dd @args }; f [<foo bar>, <baz quux>]
12:16 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«[("foo", "bar"), ("baz", "quux")]␤»
12:16 psch m: my @a; @a[0] = ('foo', 'bar'); @a[1] = ('baz', 'quux'); dd @a;
12:16 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«Array @a = [("foo", "bar"), ("baz", "quux")]␤»
12:17 psch right, +@args is actually somewhat different...
12:17 psch m: sub f(+@args) { say @args.perl }; f <foo bar>, <baz quux>
12:17 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«[("foo", "bar"), ("baz", "quux")]␤»
12:17 literal ah, sorry, my problem is that the flattening occurs when any of the lists have 1 element
12:17 literal m: my @ar = [<foo>, <baz>]; say @ar
12:17 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«[foo baz]␤»
12:17 psch m: sub f(*@args) { say @args.perl }; f <foo bar>, <baz quux>  # in contrast to this
12:17 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«["foo", "bar", "baz", "quux"]␤»
12:17 psch m: sub f(**@args) { say @args.perl }; f [<foo>, <bar>]
12:17 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«[["foo", "bar"],]␤»
12:18 psch m: sub f(**@args) { say @args.perl }; f [<foo>, <bar>], <baz>
12:18 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«[["foo", "bar"], "baz"]␤»
12:18 literal but maybe that's just <> which refuses to construct a List when presented with a single word
12:18 psch m: sub f(@args) { say @args.perl }; f [<foo>, <bar>]
12:18 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«["foo", "bar"]␤»
12:18 psch m: say <foo>.WHAT
12:18 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«(Str)␤»
12:18 psch yeah, seems like it :)
12:18 gfldex what does +@ in a signatuer do and how is it called?
12:18 psch m: sub f(@args) { say @args.perl }; f [('foo'), ('bar')]
12:18 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«["foo", "bar"]␤»
12:18 psch m: sub f(+@args) { say @args.perl }; f [('foo'), ('bar')]
12:18 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«["foo", "bar"]␤»
12:19 psch m: sub f(**@args) { say @args.perl }; f [('foo'), ('bar')]
12:19 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«[["foo", "bar"],]␤»
12:19 psch gfldex: i have no idea what it's called, but it's the user-facing way of declaring a sub that follows the single-arg rule wrt flattening
12:20 gfldex m: sub f(+@a){ dd @a }; f(1); f(1,2); f([1,2]);
12:21 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«[1]␤[1, 2]␤[1, 2]␤»
12:21 gfldex m: sub f(@a){ dd @a }; f(1); f(1,2); f([1,2]);
12:21 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Calling f(Int) will never work with declared signature (@a)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3sub f(@a){ dd @a }; 7⏏5f(1); f(1,2); f([1,2]);␤Calling f(Int, Int) will never work with declared signature (@a)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3sub f(…»
12:21 gfldex i shall doc
12:22 gfldex jnthn: do you got a good name for +@a in a sig?
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12:28 perlpilot gfldex: single-arg rule slurpy?  (I don't think I've ever seen or heard a concise name for that)
12:29 gfldex it does promote a single argument to a list, so "single argument promotion" is at least not wrong.
12:29 psch i like 'single-arg rule slurpy', although it depends on the single-arg rule being documented i suppose
12:30 psch m: my @a = <foo bar baz>; for (@a) { .say }
12:30 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«foo␤bar␤baz␤»
12:30 psch m: my @a = <foo bar baz>; for (@a,) { .say }
12:30 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«[foo bar baz]␤»
12:30 psch m: my @a = <foo bar baz>; for @a, { .say } # bit confused this doesn't work anymore..?
12:30 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Expression needs parens to avoid gobbling block␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3my @a = <foo bar baz>; for @a, { .say }7⏏5 # bit confused this doesn't work anymor␤Missing block (apparently claimed by expression)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> …»
12:31 psch oh, that's probably somehow related to the STATEMENT_LIST fiddling lizmat++ did recently..?
12:35 masak psch: I don't think I would expect that to work, now or earlier.
12:35 masak psch: what I see when I read this is an incomplete `for` loop over two elements: `@a` and a block
12:35 masak that's what a comma means :)
12:36 masak psch: do you have any evidence that `for @a, { .say }` used to work?
12:36 psch masak: yeah, i probably misremember the single-arg rule blog post
12:36 masak it's very different with and without the parens, is my point
12:37 psch yes, i know
12:37 psch and i am convinced already ;)
12:37 masak m: my @a; for @a, { .say } { say .^name }
12:37 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«Array␤Block␤»
12:37 masak there ya go :)
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12:41 jnthn gfldex: "single argument rule slurpy" would maybe do it so long as that can be linked to a good description of the rule
12:42 jnthn Or maybe it's worth inlining that
12:42 jnthn And expressing it in terms of args
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13:01 dalek doc: 9efd021 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Signature.pod:
13:01 dalek doc: doc +@ in signatures
13:01 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/9efd021e7e
13:01 gfldex i think ...
13:02 [Coke] my brain wants "the same way then with a list" to be "the same way as with a list"
13:03 dalek doc: 3d708d6 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Signature.pod:
13:03 dalek doc: change listig wording
13:03 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/3d708d6482
13:03 gfldex your grammar is my command
13:08 baest pqmD5or2pw
13:08 baest sorry
13:09 masak baest: what did you just call my dog? :P
13:09 gfldex don't be shy, tell us what this password is for
13:09 masak gfldex: it says right there, it's to unlock his pqmD5or2
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13:15 melezhik Hi! If perl6 has analogous of perl5 our varibales? like "our $foo"
13:16 masak m: our $our-variable = "yes"; say $our-variable
13:16 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«yes␤»
13:16 melezhik probably here - http://doc.perl6.org/language​/variables#The_our_Declarator ...
13:16 melezhik ?
13:17 masak melezhik: sorry, what's the question you have?
13:17 melezhik ah, nevermind, it seems you answered ...
13:17 melezhik ;))
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13:20 masak note that Perl 6 `our` variables are not *exactly* like Perl 5 `our` variables.
13:20 masak but chances are they are close enough for your needs.
13:20 masak I usually think of the `our` declarator as what allows `$MyModule::foo` access.
13:21 melezhik <masak> note that Perl 6  ... - sure! thank you
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13:32 stevieb m: my $x = "morning, " ~ <112 101 114 108 54>>>.chr.Str; $x~~s:g/\w+//.Str.say'
13:32 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Two terms in a row␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 108 54>>>.chr.Str; $x~~s:g/\w+//.Str.say7⏏5'␤    expecting any of:␤        infix␤        infix stopper␤        statement end␤        statement modi…»
13:32 stevieb m: my $x = "morning, " ~ <112 101 114 108 54>>>.chr.Str; $x~~s:g/\w+//.Str.say
13:32 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«morning p e r l 6␤»
13:32 stevieb why is the whitespace in "p e r l" not being removed?
13:33 psch m: my $x = "morning, " ~ <112 101 114 108 54>>>.chr.Str; $x~~s:g/\w+//; $x.Str.say
13:33 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«,     ␤»
13:34 psch stevieb: (1) \w means "word characters", no "whitespace characters", and (2) you're printing the unmodified $x
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13:35 stevieb psch: d'oh!!! wow. Not enough coffee this morning. particularly the '\w'. Think I'll go back to bed
13:35 jnthn m: my $x = "morning, " ~ <112 101 114 108 54>>>.chr.join
13:35 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: ( no output )
13:35 jnthn m: say "morning, " ~ <112 101 114 108 54>>>.chr.join
13:35 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«morning, perl6␤»
13:35 stevieb m: my $x = "morning, " ~ <112 101 114 108 54>>>.chr.Str; $x~~s:g/\s+//.Str; say $x
13:35 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«morning,perl6␤»
13:35 stevieb jnthn: thanks!
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14:13 dalek perl6-examples: 00f090f | (Shlomi Fish)++ | categories/euler/prob463-shlomif.p6:
14:13 dalek perl6-examples: Start porting my #463 solution to p6.
14:13 dalek perl6-examples: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl​6-examples/commit/00f090fe1d
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14:21 dalek doc: d03ad1b | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | / (2 files):
14:21 dalek doc: Slight changes to the “Not in Index” search result
14:21 dalek doc:
14:21 dalek doc: Red background instead of purple; slightly bigger font; more noticeable link;
14:21 dalek doc: parens outside of the link (otherwise it looks weird with underline);
14:21 dalek doc: inverted font weight.
14:21 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/d03ad1b472
14:22 AlexDaniel .tell Zoffix please review https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/d03ad1b472
14:22 yoleaux AlexDaniel: I'll pass your message to Zoffix.
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14:27 sexy-coder-girl It wasn't purple! It was "Can Can" on "Camile" :P
14:27 sexy-coder-girl or "Carmile" rather :)
14:27 RabidGravy :)
14:30 AlexDaniel .oO( it wasn't colorful! It was “Camelia”… )
14:31 AlexDaniel .oO( we need colorful letters in unicode )
14:36 timeless m: my $a = '/a/b#c'; say "hi <$0><$1><$2>" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)[<[#]>(.*) || ]!;
14:36 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Null regex not allowed␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)[<[#]>(.*) || 7⏏5]!;␤    expecting any of:␤        infix stopper␤»
14:37 psch m: my $a = '/a/b#c'; say "hi <$0><$1><$2>" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)[<[#]>(.*)]!;
14:37 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«hi </a/><b><c>␤»
14:37 psch timeless: the alternation cannot be empty
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14:38 psch m: say "/a/" ~~ / '/' ~ '/' .+ / # also this might be an operator of interest
14:38 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«「/a/」␤»
14:38 timeless AlexDaniel: keeping a cursor position in a line doesn't seem hard...
14:38 * timeless doesn't see liz
14:39 timeless psch: I can't read that
14:39 timeless in fact, p6 makes my head hurt
14:39 dalek perl6-examples: 0838dc2 | (Shlomi Fish)++ | categories/euler/prob463-shlomif.p6:
14:39 dalek perl6-examples: Add a working solution of #463.
14:39 dalek perl6-examples: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl​6-examples/commit/0838dc2282
14:40 psch timeless: / $a ~ $b <$c> / translates to "match $a, then match $c (as pattern) and then match $b again"
14:40 psch m: say "[foo]" ~~ / '[' ~ ']' 'foo' /
14:40 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«「[foo]」␤»
14:40 timeless p5: $a = '/a/b#c'; $a =~ m{(/[^/]+/)([^#]+)(?:#(.*)|)};
14:40 mst joined #perl6
14:41 timeless is what I want/need
14:41 psch that's still an null pattern in the alternation - also 'p5: '
14:41 psch m: //
14:41 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Null regex not allowed␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3//7⏏5<EOL>␤»
14:41 psch timeless: ^^^ that is the problem you're introducing
14:41 psch timeless: alternative to that is an empty string literal, e.g. ''
14:41 mst joined #perl6
14:41 psch oh, that was an example in perl5
14:41 * timeless shrugs
14:41 psch i see
14:41 timeless I just need something that works
14:41 psch m: my $a = '/a/b#c'; say "hi <$0><$1><$2>" if $a ~~ m![(<-[#]>*)[<[#]>(.*)||'']!;
14:41 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Unable to parse expression in metachar:sym<[ ]>; couldn't find final ']' ␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 2>" if $a ~~ m![(<-[#]>*)[<[#]>(.*)||'']7⏏5!;␤    expecting any of:␤        infix stopper␤      …»
14:42 timeless the p5 concept is really fairly easy to understand
14:42 timeless `infix stopper`?
14:42 * timeless goes to check the docs
14:43 timeless Your search - site:docs.perl6.org infix stopper - did not match any documents.
14:43 psch m: my $a = '/a/b#c'; say "hi <$0><$1><$2>" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)[<[#]>(.*) || '']!;
14:43 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«hi </a/><b><c>␤»
14:43 timeless my $a = '/a/b#'; say "hi <$0><$1><$2>" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)[<[#]>(.*) || '']!;
14:43 timeless m: my $a = '/a/b'; say "hi <$0><$1><$2>" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)[<[#]>(.*) || '']!;
14:43 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«Use of Nil in string context  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤hi </a/><b><>␤»
14:44 timeless bonus points for not giving me a Nil...
14:44 psch m: my $a = '/a/b'; say "hi <$0><$1><$2>" if $a ~~ m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)[<[#]>(.* || '')]!;
14:44 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: ( no output )
14:45 timeless fwiw, with this fixed, i'm pretty close to having decent filenames/urls for doc.perl6
14:45 psch good luck :)
14:45 timeless but I can only spend ~15mins on this, and then I should go back to my past
14:45 timeless psch: so, are you giving up on the nil?
14:45 timeless m!(\/<-[/]>*\/)(<-[#]>*)[<[#]>(.*) || '']! ---- seems okish
14:49 psch timeless: well, if you're capturing something that might not match, of course you get a Nil
14:49 psch timeless: perl5 probably just doesn't tell you
14:49 jack_rabbit joined #perl6
14:50 psch m: "foo" ~~ /(bar)/; say $0 # same case
14:50 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
14:50 timeless well, p5 basically treats it as '', which makes playing w/ strings much less annoying :)
14:50 xinming joined #perl6
14:51 psch m: constant Nil = Nil but role { method Str { '' } }; say "{Nil}"
14:51 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«␤»
14:51 * psch shrugs
14:51 rurban joined #perl6
14:52 sexy-coder-girl Perl 5 complains that it's undef, actually :)
14:52 timeless oops :)
14:52 * timeless clearly hasn't used p5 much in a while
14:53 sexy-coder-girl m: my $x = quietly Nil ~ Nil; say "[$x]"
14:53 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«[]␤»
14:53 sexy-coder-girl Same behaviour as in P5, AFAICS
14:55 timeless ... my bandwidth here seems to have been limited to low-speed dialup :(
14:57 sexy-coder-girl AlexDaniel++ bisectable is a damn fine bot!
14:57 diakopter all the sexiness distracts me :o
14:57 sexy-coder-girl so useful
14:57 araujo joined #perl6
14:57 araujo joined #perl6
14:58 AlexDaniel sexy-coder-girl: yeah, I enjoy seeing people use it
14:59 AlexDaniel especially after my latest changes :)
14:59 rindolf seems like Travis CI is failing here - https://travis-ci.org/perl6/pe​rl6-examples/builds/137810286
15:01 moritz it does't just seem like it. It fails.
15:02 dalek perl6-examples: 4d79874 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | Makefile:
15:02 dalek perl6-examples: Term::ANSIColor has been renamed
15:02 dalek perl6-examples: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl​6-examples/commit/4d79874656
15:03 sexy-coder-girl ^ should be the fix
15:03 AlexDaniel diakopter: I agree. This nickname is very annoying
15:04 sexy-coder-girl hm
15:04 AlexDaniel sexy-coder-girl: consider changing it to “womble”
15:04 perlpilot heh
15:05 * timeless sighs
15:05 dalek perl6-examples: e3dabb9 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | t/000-check-dependencies.t:
15:05 dalek perl6-examples: Term::ANSIColor is deprecated in favour of Terminal::ANSIColor
15:05 dalek perl6-examples: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl​6-examples/commit/e3dabb9657
15:05 timeless apparently it's a good idea to escape quotes....
15:06 sexy-coder-girl AlexDaniel: feel free to open an Issue so we could all participate in a debate :)
15:06 AlexDaniel sexy-coder-girl: sure, where's the repo?
15:07 sno joined #perl6
15:07 sexy-coder-girl LHF to contribute: build all modules in ecosystem and report any "occurances of deprecated code" vis-a-vis using from-json/to-json from core
15:09 AlexDaniel by the way, what's up with http://smoke.perl6.org/report ?
15:10 timeless hrm, I just unwatched 188 repositories, and I have no idea what they were
15:10 stevieb joined #perl6
15:11 awwaiid that smoke site looks neat
15:12 zakharyas joined #perl6
15:13 AlexDaniel yeah, it's awesome
15:13 dalek perl6-examples: 4b40008 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | .travis.yml:
15:13 dalek perl6-examples: Don't build ancient panda
15:13 dalek perl6-examples: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl​6-examples/commit/4b4000872d
15:13 AlexDaniel except that it seems like it's not live anymore
15:13 AlexDaniel can we get it up again?
15:13 * sexy-coder-girl stifles a laugh
15:14 huf sexy-coder-girl: oi! what happan to meatcpan.org?
15:14 awwaiid oh, I didn't notice the date
15:14 timeless SEC7115: :visited and :link styles can only differ by color. Some styles were not applied to :visited.
15:14 timeless AlexDaniel: can someone change the perl css not to upset modern security conscious web browsers?
15:14 sexy-coder-girl huf: I let it expire. The joke wore itself off :)
15:15 _mg_ joined #perl6
15:15 AlexDaniel timeless: sure! Is that an output of some tool?
15:15 timeless F12 (edge debugger)
15:15 user9 joined #perl6
15:15 sexy-coder-girl timeless: stop using stupid debuggers :) Problem solved
15:15 timeless (probably also from IE's F12, but I'm too lazy to open that...)
15:15 AlexDaniel I don't think that this warning is stupid
15:16 AlexDaniel timeless: are there any other warnings?
15:16 AlexDaniel timeless: and does it tell any line number or something?
15:17 timeless I don't see any particular hint that it does ...
15:18 timeless my bet is pygments.css
15:18 sexy-coder-girl AlexDaniel: why is it not stupid?
15:18 timeless and it might be that you want to change e.g. the split A:link:hover / A:visited:hover to
15:18 timeless A:hover +:link/:visited
15:19 timeless or just um, get rid of the split
15:19 timeless since they're actually the same color
15:19 sexy-coder-girl timeless: what's "perl css"? Which website are you talking about?
15:19 timeless doc.perl6.org
15:19 timeless ah
15:19 timeless got it
15:19 timeless here https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/XKNVl1oM/
15:20 timeless someone is futzing w/ text-decoration
15:20 timeless well, maybe
15:20 * timeless still isn't absolutely certain
15:21 timeless I can give you the url where msdn explains what they're thinking
15:21 AlexDaniel yes please
15:21 timeless and perhaps next week I could be on the team involved in that ui...
15:21 timeless http://msdn.microsoft.com/query/dev1​2.query?appId=Dev12IDEF1&amp;l=EN-US​&amp;k=k(VS.WebClient.Help.SEC7115)
15:21 AlexDaniel timeless: I'd love you to get that . / # ? thing done
15:21 timeless but yeah, basically text-decoration shouldn't be in the rule for :visited
15:22 timeless AlexDaniel: yeah, i'm testing it
15:22 timeless it's close, but i'm missing a cigar
15:22 AlexDaniel timeless: sure I'm not the one who should tell you what to do, but I'm just saying that I'd be happy to see that
15:22 vendethiel joined #perl6
15:23 * timeless chuckles
15:23 timeless HTML1409: Invalid attribute name character. Attribute names should not contain ("),('),(<), or (=).
15:23 * timeless is impressed by f12
15:24 * moritz is impressed we are now at HTML 1409; thought HTML 5 was state of the art
15:24 timeless DOM7011: The code on this page disabled back and forward caching. For more information, see: http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkID=291337 https://msdn.microsoft.com/query/dev​12.query?appId=Dev12IDEF1&amp;l=EN-U​S&amp;k=k(VS.WebClient.Help.DOM7011)
15:24 timeless moritz: including an id + a number = google/bing searching can work
15:25 moritz timeless: I know, I'm just trolling a bit
15:25 timeless and it doesn't limit you to your language (esp if that language isn't en-* where someone localized the error message)
15:25 timeless moritz: I actually worked on exposing useful (crypto) error tokens to gecko a lifetime ago..
15:25 AlexDaniel timeless: this one feels IE-specific, although I'm not sure
15:25 timeless AlexDaniel: the visited thing isn't
15:26 timeless i'm involved w/ the standards group in this area
15:26 AlexDaniel timeless: sure, yes, though I'm still not sure what's going on there…
15:26 timeless browser vendors are converging on more or less that rule
15:26 sexy-coder-girl timeless: doesn't the visited thing would still pose the same issue for colour changes?
15:26 sexy-coder-girl Or does getComputedStyle() return trash for colour?
15:26 timeless sexy-coder-girl: color is not usually detectable by most scripts
15:26 timeless and the UA can lie if it wants to about color
15:27 * timeless can't remember what the UAs actually do for it
15:27 timeless https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/​Web/CSS/Privacy_and_the_:visited_selector
15:27 sexy-coder-girl Seems they went with a backwards solution. Why not just make getComputedStyle() return :link styles for :visited and be done with it :S
15:28 timeless Little white lies
15:28 timeless The first change is that Gecko will lie to web applications under certain circumstances. In particular, getComputedStyle() and similar functions such as element.querySelector() always return values indicating that a user has never visited any of the links on a page.
15:28 timeless -- the problem is that most other things beyond color can result in layout changes
15:29 timeless and the UA isn't willing to retain a complete alternate layout just to lie to gCS
15:29 sexy-coder-girl Ahh, I see
15:30 * timeless tries to figure out why routine is doing the wrong thing :(
15:31 timeless right now, i need to get `&` doing what i want https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/GMGZMtBv/
15:31 ggoebel116 joined #perl6
15:32 AlexDaniel so, first of all, we're talking about pages like this
15:32 AlexDaniel http://doc.perl6.org/langu​age/objects#Using_Objects
15:32 AlexDaniel you can see a <pre> with some links in it
15:32 rindolf sexy-coder-girl: thanks for fixing the perl6-examples repository.
15:32 dalek doc: 6ee80bc | (Zoffix Znet)++ | html/css/style.css:
15:32 dalek doc: Do not style :visited
15:32 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/6ee80bcb10
15:32 AlexDaniel now, the css says that visited and unvisited links are black and have an underline
15:32 AlexDaniel what's the problem?
15:33 darutoko- joined #perl6
15:33 AlexDaniel the fix above is going to work, I think, but why was it complaining?
15:33 timeless that fix isn't enough
15:34 timeless pygments whatever...
15:34 sexy-coder-girl AlexDaniel: it's a security warning. A malicious script can use the alternate styling to determine your identity, yada yada
15:34 timeless and boy do I wish the debugger linked me to the css in question
15:34 * timeless wonders if FF or Chrome are nicer here
15:35 sexy-coder-girl timeless: well, at least you can read yours. Mine opened in like a 50px x 200px window and I can't resize it and it doesn't even go away when I press F12 again :S
15:35 AlexDaniel sexy-coder-girl: how? If the style is exactly the same for both visited and unvisited links
15:35 ssotka joined #perl6
15:35 user9 joined #perl6
15:35 timeless sexy-coder-girl: there's a maximize button on the far right
15:35 sexy-coder-girl timeless: don't got any buttons.
15:36 timeless AlexDaniel: see the snippet I pasted earlier where text decoration isn't the same
15:36 timeless https://usercontent.irccloud-c​dn.com/file/vqc75ShM/image.png
15:37 dalek doc: 09bfa0e | (Zoffix Znet)++ | html/css/style.css:
15:37 dalek doc: Toss another differentiation between :visited and :link
15:37 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/09bfa0e720
15:37 AlexDaniel ah, so by creating two links (one that is in pre and another one that is elsewhere) you can query the style to check if the user has visited that link or not
15:37 AlexDaniel that's pretty clever, really
15:37 timeless there's a whole area of security research there
15:37 timeless (seriously)
15:38 AlexDaniel and the fix is to not touch text-decoration, right?
15:38 timeless it's been driving browser engineers nuts for over a decade
15:38 timeless well, i'm speculating, because i'm trying to focus on the other thing :)
15:38 sexy-coder-girl Seems like this shit would apply only to few people who are living off-the-grid. No Facebooks or anything.
15:38 timeless but, my fix would be to *only* touch color
15:38 timeless sexy-coder-girl: no
15:38 timeless anyone who has visited something obscure
15:39 timeless they're sorta-wateringhole attacks
15:39 timeless maybe I check to see if you've been to `pulse`
15:39 raiph joined #perl6
15:39 timeless or if you've been to the admin page of GitHub/{something}
15:39 AlexDaniel so, do I get it right that if you want to style your links differently, then these styles should apply to all links on the site?
15:40 sexy-coder-girl timeless: how? You'd need to install some malicious script on my box won't you?
15:40 timeless you can style things in A:link. But your :visited css should *only* touch color
15:40 timeless sexy-coder-girl: no
15:40 sexy-coder-girl The more I think of this issue the more stupid it seems to my mind.
15:40 AlexDaniel aha… okay
15:40 timeless <a href="http://pulse.com">a....
15:40 AlexDaniel sexy-coder-girl: no, that's not stupid
15:40 * timeless isn't sure what pulse's web site is
15:40 * timeless presumes everyone here recognizes pulse as of today
15:41 * sexy-coder-girl never heard of it
15:41 timeless sexy-coder-girl: meatspace-meetspace
15:41 [Coke] meta meat meet space.
15:41 [Coke] ... team
15:41 timeless and not to beat a dead horse, but um... dead meat
15:41 timeless :(
15:41 AlexDaniel timeless: ok, that's an interesting observation. Thanks for reporting
15:42 timeless sexy-coder-girl: is that enough for you to recognize the ref?
15:42 sexy-coder-girl timeless: well, what is that link? What does it mean? Where would it be used? I can just stuff that on any page I want and tell you "Here, take a look!" and gather all the URLs you visited.
15:42 timeless sexy-coder-girl: there were attacks precisely like that, yes
15:43 sexy-coder-girl I don't see how the styling of visited links on doc.perl6.org is in any way exploitable by some dude that never installed any malicious scripts in my browser.
15:43 timeless lemme see if I can find a sample
15:43 timeless sexy-coder-girl: :visited isn't limited to local links
15:43 timeless it in theory applies to links to other domains
15:43 timeless so wateringhole.attack.example.com
15:43 timeless could color w/ :visited a link to admin.perl6.org
15:43 sexy-coder-girl timeless: sure, but the styling will be applied only when I'm on doc.perl6.org and there are ain't any malicious people gathering stats
15:44 awwaiid that would only matter if perl6.org loaded evil content, right?
15:44 timeless no
15:44 timeless :visited would apply if your browser knew you had visited admin.perl6.org
15:44 timeless and it would apply to the link on wateringhole.attack.example.com
15:44 sexy-coder-girl timeless: right, but it would apply only when I'm browing docs.perl6.org
15:44 timeless no
15:45 timeless if your history says you went to admin.perl6.org
15:45 timeless then any page you visit anywhere on the web w/ a link to admin.perl6.org can style :visited
15:45 sexy-coder-girl timeless: exactly, but what does it matter WHAT that style is on docs.perl6.org?
15:45 timeless instead of thinking of `doc.perl6.org` as an attackable site
15:45 awwaiid well what's the worst case here -- someone at some point can get a whitelist of my browsing history, and htereby narrow an attack for me, right?
15:45 timeless awwaiid: so...
15:45 timeless imagine you were a frequenter of Pulse
15:46 awwaiid k
15:46 timeless but you hadn't told people
15:46 awwaiid right
15:46 timeless if they can determine that you visited Pulse, they can out you from the closet
15:46 awwaiid right
15:46 awwaiid privacy leak
15:46 timeless maybe you're in a place where they pehead people
15:46 timeless s/peh/beh/
15:46 awwaiid and worse it can also allow them to target an attack at me -- like now that they know I go to pulse they can craft a targeted fishing link
15:46 timeless now, it could be that they choose to attack you because it turns out you have useful credentials for admin.perl6.org
15:47 sexy-coder-girl timeless: but they would just give you a URL to visit. I still don't see how docs.perl6.org styles help with anything whatsoever
15:47 timeless sexy-coder-girl: lemme see if I can find a sample page that talks about this
15:47 sexy-coder-girl Sure.
15:47 awwaiid sexy-coder-girl: I think browsers have worked-around this for the color attribute
15:47 timeless the point is that they could have a page with 1000 links
15:47 timeless and it's not about asking the user to visit them all
15:47 timeless it's about asking the browser has the user already visited them
15:48 awwaiid right -- they just introspect the page to see if the browser knows they've been :visited
15:48 sexy-coder-girl timeless: yes, but this still has nothing to do with styles on docs.perl6.org
15:48 timeless sexy-coder-girl: the way browsers protect against this is where it crosses docs
15:48 sexy-coder-girl Hm?
15:48 timeless docs is using some styles which browsers have decided they consider risky and don't want to honor
15:49 sexy-coder-girl So it's not a security issue. It's browsers thinking we're a malicious website.
15:49 timeless because browsers want to protect their users
15:49 timeless browsers have to treat *all* sites as malicious
15:49 timeless http://dbaron.org/mozilla/visited-privacy
15:49 AlexDaniel but the point is that unless we start loading weird shit on docs.perl6.org there's no problem
15:50 sexy-coder-girl Exactly. And thus the circle is complete with my original statement: that warning is stupid.
15:50 timeless well
15:50 * sexy-coder-girl leaves for lunch
15:50 AlexDaniel there are no ads or anything, the site is also non-dynamic
15:50 timeless the point is that your UX designer needs to know that the style he's using won't work
15:50 AlexDaniel so XSS is out as well
15:50 timeless and he should stop using it
15:50 timeless https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2010​/03/31/plugging-the-css-history-leak/
15:51 AlexDaniel timeless: check it out again, did the warning disappear?
15:51 awwaiid ah, this makes sense now. Not protecting users directly, just complying with browsers trying to protect users.
15:52 * timeless sighs
15:52 awwaiid I heard about this info-leak when it came out, but didn't know the latest in how browsers try to fix
15:53 timeless I can't figure out if (NotSAFE!) http://www.haveyourfriendsbeenthere.com/ is a different attack or something else
15:53 timeless AlexDaniel: still there
15:53 timeless you can get a VM from ms
15:54 timeless http://modern.ie
15:54 timeless > Test Microsoft Edge and also IE6 up to IE11 using virtual machines that you download and manage locally for free.
15:54 timeless http://cssfingerprint.com/results
15:54 timeless is probably the right thing
15:55 timeless but it looks like it's gone :(
15:55 * timeless asks wayback for help
15:55 awwaiid aww that's too bad. there's the eff one for fingerprinting that works similarly...
15:56 awwaiid but is a little different
15:56 timeless http://web.archive.org/web/2010041​1060604/http://cssfingerprint.com/
15:59 sno joined #perl6
16:01 AlexDaniel timeless: how can it be there if :visited links are not touched. Are you sure that you're not using a cached version of css or something?
16:01 khw joined #perl6
16:02 sexy-coder-girl timeless: I'm not getting the warning on Edge 13
16:02 pmurias joined #perl6
16:02 sexy-coder-girl Oh, nm.. Had to move my mouse over a link to trigger it
16:03 timeless AlexDaniel: i'll leave you and sexy-coder-girl to work this through
16:03 timeless since it seems like sexy-coder-girl hit it :)
16:03 * timeless goes back to &
16:04 * timeless sighs
16:04 raiph joined #perl6
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16:05 wamba joined #perl6
16:06 pmurias sexy-coder-girl: re warning is stupid, why should the browsers give docs.perl6.org access to the users browser history?
16:06 sexy-coder-girl Nah, I just wanted to see if there was a way to find a line number.
16:07 timeless (we should ask google/bing if there's a way)
16:07 sexy-coder-girl pmurias: it's up to them to decide. If they see no reason, they can ignore any styles but `color` applied to :visited. It's pretty dumb expecting the devs to comply with some sort of warning
16:07 timeless the problem is that enabling that adds cost to the engine
16:07 awwaiid so does detecting it to give a warning :)
16:08 sexy-coder-girl I mean really, the bad guys won't comply. I see it more as "in the future, your non-color styles might stop working" warning.
16:08 timeless awwaiid: detecting is much cheaper than maintaining the info necessary for a verbose message
16:08 AlexDaniel yeah, so we should fix it
16:08 awwaiid yeah, I suppose
16:08 timeless sexy-coder-girl: precisely
16:08 awwaiid sexy-coder-girl: I agree
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16:09 sexy-coder-girl timeless: I was just trying to see if I could ease out the line number from it, but I don't see much return on investment in attempting to fix this. It says some styles not applied to "visited." So that'll involve digging to jquery UI CSS, pygments and other shite on the site to find it
16:09 ggoebel116 joined #perl6
16:10 timeless so, back to perl6
16:10 timeless I want to find out where some data came from :/
16:10 timeless (I really want a custom tainter)
16:11 araujo_ joined #perl6
16:11 moritz the second most annoying question when debugging: "where did this data come from?"
16:11 moritz the most annyoing being "why doesn't this code run?"
16:12 timeless #2 is much harder than #1
16:12 setty1 joined #perl6
16:12 AlexDaniel timeless: by the way, is it a good idea to separate those with -? That is, why amp-amp instead of ampamp? :)
16:12 timeless #2 can be basically solved by abusing #1
16:12 * geekosaur wonders if "but" can be (ab?)used for data tracking/tainting
16:12 timeless AlexDaniel: some other words get confusing
16:12 awwaiid I always teach new devs to put a gigantic syntax error in their code to prove it CAN break and that they're running it at all :)
16:13 pmurias sexy-coder-girl: you mean it's stupid that there is a warning but the styles are applied despite it?
16:13 timeless awwaiid: indeed
16:14 timeless AlexDaniel: i'm not 100% certain that the -'s are needed
16:14 timeless it's a lot easier to understand that dash-dash-x is two dashes and not some special dashdash
16:14 AlexDaniel timeless: dunno, hm… what about using spaces? :)
16:14 timeless AlexDaniel: consider `/ /`
16:15 AlexDaniel uhh
16:15 timeless vs. `//`
16:16 timeless i'm tempted to use `_` instead of `-` -- there already was code trying to use `_` fwiw...
16:16 vendethiel joined #perl6
16:17 timeless AlexDaniel: so, space is a bad idea, agreed? :)
16:17 AlexDaniel huggable: dunno
16:17 huggable AlexDaniel, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
16:18 timeless `/ /` -> `slash slash`; `//` -> `slash slash` ==>
16:18 timeless huggable: frown
16:18 huggable timeless, nothing found
16:18 AlexDaniel should be ‘slash  slash’ vs ‘slash slash’ but yeah, that's not cool
16:19 zakharyas joined #perl6
16:19 AlexDaniel let's just hope that we're not going get into the same situation with dashes
16:19 sexy-coder-girl pmurias: I guess it's stupid that Microsoft shoves this under "Security errors" section, when it really isn't about security. I dunno, maybe it's not the warning but the way this discussion proceeded to imply that we somehow endager users of docs.perl6.org by styling :visited links (or at least that's how I perceived it).
16:19 timeless it escapes dash
16:19 timeless but yeah, it's not wonderful, `_` is probably better, but it's harder to type
16:19 timeless and it isn't the English token for the use case
16:19 timeless in principle, `-` is what English uses for this
16:20 timeless so, if `-` works w/o *too* much pain, i'd rather
16:20 timeless if it doesn't, i'm not wed to it
16:20 AlexDaniel yeah, it's probably ok
16:22 cdg joined #perl6
16:22 * timeless cuts doc down to 5 pod files
16:31 andreoss left #perl6
16:34 timeless AlexDaniel: my biggest concern is `#infix &&`
16:35 timeless because sometimes `#` should be hash, and sometimes it's `#` (anchor ref)
16:37 rurban joined #perl6
16:40 FROGGS[mobile] joined #perl6
16:40 FROGGS[mobile] o/
16:42 timeless m: ' ' ~~ /&/;
16:42 camelia rakudo-moar b3e9f5: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Null regex not allowed␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3' ' ~~ /&7⏏5/;␤    expecting any of:␤        term␤»
16:43 timeless ok, so, can someone please remind me why `perl6` doesn't give a line number when I do that?
16:43 AlexDaniel timeless: there's a line number
16:43 tony-o at <tmp>:1
16:43 AlexDaniel timeless: filename <tmp>, line number :1
16:43 timeless perl6 --ll-exception htmlify.p6 --no-highlight
16:43 timeless Initializing ...
16:43 timeless Null regex not allowed
16:43 timeless at gen/moar/m-CORE.setting:21553  (/home/timeless/hg/perl6/rakudo​brew/moar-nom/install/share/pe
16:43 timeless AlexDaniel: perl6 ^ doesn't; camelia does.
16:43 tony-o that :\d+ is the line number
16:44 tony-o m-CORE.setting line 21553
16:44 AlexDaniel timeless: what if you use no --ll-exception? :)
16:44 timeless at gen/moar/m-CORE.setting:21553  (/home/timeless/hg/perl6/rakudobrew/moar-nom/insta​ll/share/perl6/runtime/CORE.setting.moarvm:throw)
16:45 tony-o ll-exception shows a the longer version of the error, so you get more line numbers
16:45 timeless AlexDaniel: that works
16:46 AlexDaniel hm
16:46 tony-o i think timeless has me on ignore
16:46 Xliff joined #perl6
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16:46 timeless so, w/o --ll-exception it gives something useful https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/1npGnJl6/
16:47 Xliff \o
16:47 timeless tony-o: i'm not ignoring you
16:47 timeless well, I am, but i'm not
16:47 AlexDaniel timeless: can you paste full backtrace with --ll-exception?
16:47 timeless AlexDaniel: sure
16:48 Xliff When retrieving pointers returned from Nativecall backed lib, what is the best way to test for equivalence? =:= seems to be giving me mixed results.
16:48 timeless full https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/0ZhwDW9i/
16:48 timeless tony-o: the problem is that while i'm getting line numbers, they aren't related to my code
16:49 AlexDaniel yeah, it does not look right
16:49 nine /win 14
16:49 AlexDaniel nine: yeah
16:50 TimToady joined #perl6
16:50 AlexDaniel timeless: I think that it needs a shorter snippet to reproduce the issue, eh. But you are right, the problem is there
16:50 AlexDaniel I don't think that people are supposed to use --ll-exception since normal error messages are meant to give good enough error messages
16:50 AlexDaniel if they don't, that's a bug :)
16:51 AlexDaniel but it's the first time I see somebody complain about --ll-exception, so I don't know
16:51 timeless here you go https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/IOKyc4hD/
16:52 timeless the help doesn't say "and eat the normal stuff" :-(
16:53 timeless I think the problem is that it really isn't what I want
16:53 timeless i want a normal backtrace, not a low level one
16:53 tony-o timeless: ahh, that is a problem - i've had that problem too and resorted to doing 'say' debugging to figure out where it's happening.  that isn't ideal if you have a lot of code
16:53 timeless every sane language supports this
16:53 dalek doc: f312715 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | / (4 files):
16:53 dalek doc: Add 404 page with menu bar on it
16:53 dalek doc:
16:53 dalek doc: Fixes #129
16:53 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f3127151e9
16:53 timeless tony-o: yep
16:54 timeless the debugger is pretty much unusable, i tried yesterday
16:54 tony-o timeless: agreed, it isn't great and i'm sure it will improve
16:54 timeless so, i'm basically w/ say debugging
16:54 timeless but i was using --ll-exception, naïvely assuming it'd at least help a little
16:54 timeless at this point, it seems more like a footgun
16:55 tony-o timeless: http://modules.zef.pm/modules/​github:Altai-man/Devel::Trace
16:55 tony-o that may be interesting
16:55 tony-o another: http://modules.zef.pm/modules/not%​20in%20meta/Rakudo::Perl6::Tracer
16:55 timeless depends on how slow things are
16:55 domidumont joined #perl6
16:55 tony-o i need to implement short url generation for the modules.zef
16:55 nine timeless: it's a compile time error. By definition at that time, the only stack in existence is the compiler's very own and that's what you get with --ll-exception
16:55 timeless i tried perl6-debug-m and it slowed things down to a crawl
16:56 timeless nine: um...
16:56 * timeless polishes off a fancy "end user" hat
16:56 * timeless points to it proudly
16:56 timeless ... wearing my end user hat... i expect to not lose information when i ask for more information
16:56 timeless w/o that flag, i get something vaguely useful
16:56 timeless when i add that flag, i lose it
16:56 timeless proudly wearing my end user hat, i'm unhappy
16:57 * timeless slowly removes that hat and places it back on the shelf
16:57 nine timeless: but you did _not_ ask for more information but for "a low level backtrace" and that's what you got.
16:58 timeless nine: this is not a useful argument
16:58 timeless and i hope you can understand that
16:58 timeless i carefully put on an end user hat to explain context
16:59 timeless i'm trying to improve the doc site, so i'm mostly wearing a UX polisher hat
16:59 timeless i'm also very skittish
16:59 geekosaur so, the message for end users is --ll-exceptionis not for you
16:59 geekosaur it's for debugging rakudo
16:59 timeless geekosaur: footguns should be well hidden
16:59 mst so it probably needs to make it more obvious
16:59 jnthn Well, where did you find out about it?
16:59 timeless perl6 --help
17:00 timeless (where every normal user starts when they have a problem)
17:01 timeless perl5 --help does not to my knowledge include footguns
17:01 timeless i mean, sure `-U allow unsafe operations` may be a footgun
17:01 timeless but it's well labeled
17:02 timeless i'm happy to suggest alternate text for your footgun if you are interested
17:02 timeless although, personally, i'd much rather it just include the normal output in addition to what it's doing
17:02 * geekosaur would move internal options to a --help-all or something, really
17:03 timeless --- and to finish my point about being skittish. i have dozens of other things i can do
17:03 jnthn The point of it is to help us debug situations where producing the nroaml output *is* the problem.
17:03 jnthn I'd sooner just remove it from --help if it's going to cause confusion, than try and find other wording.
17:03 vendethiel joined #perl6
17:04 timeless either works.
17:04 timeless thanks for taking my feedback. i appreciate it
17:04 FROGGS joined #perl6
17:04 timeless tony-o: ok, so... i can try -DDevel::Trace
17:06 jnthn Could also add a --help-dev to list such things. --stagestats is arguably also better under there, and we could mention the RAKUDO_MODULE_DEBUG envvar or whatever it's called :)
17:06 timeless hrm, that might be vaguely usable
17:07 timeless offhand --target and --optimize probably don't belong in --help either
17:07 * nine hopes that we can one day get rid of RAKUDO_MODULE_DEBUG
17:07 Xliff Isn't there a way to have rakudo print out all of the operations it is performing?
17:07 nine All the debug output does not exactly make the code more readable
17:08 timeless i'm also not sure whether --profile* belongs in --help -- i think it depends on whom your target audience is
17:08 Xliff Or did I really imagine that capability was in there. (maybe confused with RAKUDO_MODULE_DEBUG)
17:08 timeless if it's more for debugging moar than for debugging my program, then i'd suggest you move it too
17:08 timeless oh!
17:09 timeless perl6 --doc ~ perldoc ?
17:09 timeless would it hurt much to add `per6-doc` which was a wrapper for perl6 --doc ?
17:11 timeless *perl6-doc
17:12 spider-mario joined #perl6
17:13 nine Why don't I have permission to view ticket #63956?
17:13 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=63956
17:15 ingy joined #perl6
17:16 jnthn --profile is certainly intended for normal users (or at least intermediate-advanced level users) to understand where their program is taking time, and it's pretty normal for compilers to take a --optimize flag also. So I think those two are fine under --help.
17:17 jnthn dinner &
17:17 AlexDaniel well, I don't think that we can toss out --ll-exception right now
17:17 AlexDaniel because error messages are not that good yet
17:17 timeless AlexDaniel: this isn't about removing it, so much as moving it :)
17:17 jnthn AlexDaniel: The proposal isn't to remove it, just to not include it in --help.
17:17 jnthn really dinner :) &
17:17 AlexDaniel yeah, I mean keep it in --help
17:17 * timeless should lunch
17:18 AlexDaniel in fact, I'd vote to make it more visible…
17:18 AlexDaniel :/
17:21 sjn joined #perl6
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17:23 timeless nine: out of curiosity, how'd you find that number?
17:23 nine timeless: it's referenced in t/spec/S11-modules/nested.t
17:24 * timeless frowns
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17:33 timeless [timeless@gcc2-power8 doc]$ perl6 --doc Perl6::Documentable::Registry
17:33 timeless Could not open Perl6::Documentable::Registry. Failed to stat file: no such file or directory
17:33 user3 joined #perl6
17:34 timeless ok, i give up, how does `perl6 --doc` work/
17:34 user3 im also interested in this answer
17:36 rindolf joined #perl6
17:43 timeless tony-o: the second one seems promising
17:44 gfldex see http://design.perl6.org/S26.html​#How_Pod_is_parsed_and_processed
17:45 timeless [timeless@gcc2-power8 doc]$ perl6 --doc perlrun
17:45 timeless Could not open perlrun. Failed to stat file: no such file or directory
17:45 timeless gfldex: that's based on the example in your url
17:46 stux|RC-only joined #perl6
17:47 gfldex you didn't tell it what module to use to render pod
17:47 user3 left #perl6
17:47 gfldex perl --doc $foo # will look for POD::To:$foo
17:48 gfldex Pod::To::$foo even
17:50 timeless so, we should talk about help
17:50 timeless --profile=kind       write profile information to a file (MoarVM)
17:50 timeless means kind is mandatory
17:50 timeless --target=[stage]     specify compilation stage to emit
17:50 timeless should mean stage is optional
17:52 timeless ?? https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/cVjJ8I8H/
17:53 stevieb I absolutely LOVE being able to easily look at what methods a class has while I'm learning. I just dedicate one window for things like this, so I don't have to look up in the docs all the time: "Str>>.^methods>>.say"
17:53 stevieb ...what I *really* meant was "Str.^methods>>.say"
17:54 timeless m: Str.^methods>>.say
17:54 camelia rakudo-moar 66ebd8: OUTPUT«BUILD␤Int␤Num␤chomp␤chop␤pred␤succ␤​simplematch␤match␤ords␤samecase␤samemark␤s​amespace␤word-by-word␤trim-leading␤trim-tr​ailing␤trim␤encode␤NFC␤NFD␤NFKC␤NFKD␤wordc​ase␤trans␤indent␤codes␤chars␤uc␤lc␤tc…»
17:54 vendethiel joined #perl6
17:56 stevieb timeless: I was going to do that here, but was afraid it would list one item per line ;)
17:58 user9 joined #perl6
17:59 timeless gfldex: ok, so, how does one find a list of Pod::To::{things}} ?
18:00 gfldex http://modules.perl6.org/#q=Pod%3A%3ATo
18:00 skids (and there are a couple shipped with rakudo core)
18:01 timeless assume i only have core
18:02 timeless (the rrakudo world build system is a bit of a mess -- i couldn't get panda to build, i'm happy i have zef)
18:02 skids OK it looks like just "Text.pm6"
18:02 Sqirrel joined #perl6
18:02 timeless [timeless@gcc2-power8 doc]$ perl6 --doc Text perlrun
18:02 timeless Could not open Text. Failed to stat file: no such file or directory
18:03 skids --doc=Text works for me
18:03 timeless [timeless@gcc2-power8 doc]$ perl6 --doc=Text.pm6 perlrun
18:03 timeless Could not open perlrun. Failed to stat file: no such file or directory
18:03 timeless [timeless@gcc2-power8 doc]$ perl6 --doc=Text perlrun
18:03 timeless Could not open perlrun. Failed to stat file: no such file or directory
18:04 timeless p6: say 3
18:04 camelia rakudo-moar 66ebd8: OUTPUT«3␤»
18:04 timeless m: say 4
18:04 camelia rakudo-moar 66ebd8: OUTPUT«4␤»
18:04 stevieb panda list | grep Pod
18:05 * timeless doesn't understand the difference
18:05 timeless stevieb: as i noted above, i don't have panda
18:05 stevieb oh crap, sorry :)
18:05 skids $ perl6 --doc=Text -e '=begin pod
18:05 skids > foo
18:05 skids > =end pod'
18:05 skids foo
18:06 timeless https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/5gjMOqaL/
18:07 timeless also, we already know that `tohtml` works, since i'm able to run the htmlify.p6 script
18:08 timeless fwiw, your -e test also works
18:08 timeless so, the problem is not the --doc= notation
18:08 timeless it's the `perlrun` side of the equation
18:09 timeless the doc= bits are indeed optional https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/MQ0DJFr4/
18:16 BrokenRobot timeless: what exactly `perlrun` supposed to be?
18:17 timeless http://design.perl6.org/S26.html​#How_Pod_is_parsed_and_processed
18:17 timeless Hence, to read Pod documentation you would type things like:
18:17 timeless perl --doc  perlrun
18:18 BrokenRobot timeless: that's just an example (Perl 5 has perlrun pod)
18:19 timeless BrokenRobot: well. if that isn't supposed to work, then remove the example or replace it.
18:19 * AlexDaniel is happy to see somebody who is unhappy with the way things work :)
18:19 BrokenRobot timeless: you're reading an archived, historical speculation.
18:19 timeless BrokenRobot: i'm reading it because someone pointed me to it
18:19 timeless don't point people to things if you don't want people to read them.
18:19 timeless or remove them.
18:20 timeless you left a landmine in a playground and are surprised someone stepped on it.
18:20 * BrokenRobot wonders wtf happened to the red message at the top of the page
18:20 timeless also, please note that my time and patience are limited
18:21 timeless if i hit a certain number of failures / certain number of negative pushbacks, i'll leave
18:21 timeless heck, i shouldn't be here now. i should be reviewing something else
18:22 BrokenRobot timeless: as you've probably noticed, there are many people working on the Perl 6 project, constantly improving it. Complaining that something isn't perfect and threatening to leave (for the second time) isn't going to win you any favours.
18:22 huggable joined #perl6
18:23 BrokenRobot timeless: if you're frustrated, take a break.
18:23 timeless also, please don't rely on a red box at the top of the page.. i was given an #anchor, so unless css brings that box into view, the box isn't worth anything.
18:23 AlexDaniel this red box is fixed :)
18:23 BrokenRobot timeless: the box were visible even with the anchor.
18:23 BrokenRobot AlexDaniel: for some reason it's gone
18:24 AlexDaniel huh? Indeed…
18:24 AlexDaniel it's visible in other files, just not in S26
18:24 timeless ...
18:25 BrokenRobot Oh, indeed. Maybe something wasn't rebuilt properly
18:25 gfldex IIRC S26 is causing troubles when turned into HTML and is processed by hand
18:25 TimToady timeless++ for finding a bug; timeless-- for playing emotional blackmail games, so I guess it's a wash :)
18:25 timeless TimToady: i'm more of a 3 steps forward 2 steps back kinda guy
18:26 TimToady we value being stubborn :)
18:26 AlexDaniel I think that it is totally fine that timeless is complaining about things. It's not like he does nothing and is only complaining, he is working on stuff and is constantly reporting problems. It may sound a bit negative, but hey, I think that it pushes things forward.
18:27 BrokenRobot There's a note "(HTML rendering of S26 is known to be incomplete)" I guess whatever is causing it to be incomplete is causing it to not get refreshed with proper CSS <link>
18:27 vendethiel joined #perl6
18:27 AlexDaniel timeless: by the way, going to close #597 in favor of what parabolize has suggested
18:28 timeless which is that? NaN/Inf or the doc link?
18:28 timeless i'm about to push the doc link
18:28 AlexDaniel https://github.com/perl6/doc/pull/597/files
18:28 AlexDaniel ah
18:28 * timeless is waiting for a silly process to finish
18:29 donaldh joined #perl6
18:29 timeless and yeah, i'm using his text... in some other world, i'd be tempted to credit him w/ it
18:29 timeless note to self: use cp -r instead of locally cloning repos... :(
18:30 BrokenRobot S15 also ain't got a message
18:32 BrokenRobot Fixed it manually. No idea if it'll get rewritten back on next cron run
18:32 timeless BrokenRobot: thanks
18:32 AlexDaniel hm, let me try this: guys, let's move design.perl6.org to speculations.perl6.org?
18:33 BrokenRobot +1
18:34 ggoebel116 joined #perl6
18:34 moritz -1
18:35 moritz I still find the name "design docs" pretty fitting
18:35 moritz anybody who has a bit of experience with real-world software development knows they aren't always 100% accurate
18:35 timeless last i checked there were still links into it from doc.perl6 -- although perhaps we've removed them
18:36 AlexDaniel sure, it's ok if it works for you. Except that people still keep thinking that these are up to date
18:36 moritz also, last time the URL changed, I went everywhere I could and changed links (like Wikipedia, other wikis, my pages etc.)
18:37 AlexDaniel we can have a redirect
18:37 moritz AlexDaniel: then maybe we should either update them, or mark specific areas as outdated
18:37 moritz I think that would have a much better effect than changing the domain name
18:38 timeless AlexDaniel: if i know it works, should i wait for travis or just push it? :)
18:38 dalek doc: b7e4c71 | (Josh Soref)++ | doc/Language/5to6-perlsyn.pod:
18:38 dalek doc: use pod link instead of url for 5to6-nutshell
18:38 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/b7e4c715f3
18:40 [Coke] (mark areas as outdated) - every page is marked as outdated.
18:40 [Coke] except, probably the ones generated from POD6 instead of POD5
18:41 AlexDaniel outdated.perl6.org is not too bad too, I agree ;)
18:41 AlexDaniel timeless: if it's obvious then just push it
18:41 * timeless nods
18:42 AlexDaniel timeless: sometimes it turns out to be non-obvious and the whole thing blows up, but that's not the end of the world ;)
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18:50 * BrokenRobot is a bit baffled seeing Pod::To::HTML actually references design.perl6.org's CSS file :/
18:51 BrokenRobot I guess this is an excuse enough: "
18:51 BrokenRobot # FIXME: this code's a horrible mess."
18:52 * moritz is utterly fascinated by the gravitational wave detections from binary bloack hole mergers
18:53 travis-ci joined #perl6
18:53 travis-ci Doc build passed. Josh Soref 'use pod link instead of url for 5to6-nutshell'
18:53 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/137882850 https://github.com/perl6/doc/compare/pod-nutshell
18:53 travis-ci left #perl6
18:54 AlexDaniel haha
18:54 parabolize is http://design.perl6.org/S26.html#Pod what we are using for design docs or is there some Pod on it?
18:55 moritz parabolize: much of the design docs is still in Perl 5 Pod
18:55 BrokenRobot Except for S15/S26 apparently
18:57 timeless moritz: i'm unfamiliar w/ bloack holes
18:58 vendethiel joined #perl6
19:00 BrokenRobot Weird. Getting illegal sub declaration from trying to use the module, but if I run the same thing manually it's fine: https://gist.github.com/zoffixznet​/58fc667b020b79f1ee870a46a1515087
19:00 BrokenRobot That's with https://github.com/perl6/Pod-To-HT​ML/blob/master/lib/Pod/To/HTML.pm
19:02 moritz timeless: http://physics.aps.org/articles/v9/68 if you want something to read :-)
19:03 moritz basically, black holes are super dense (just about a hundred kilometers, but containing multiple sun masses), and when two of them get close to each other, they orbit around each otehr
19:03 moritz and emit gravitational waves, which are small distortions in space time
19:03 timeless moritz: oh, i know a little about black holes. i was wondering about bloack holes :)
19:03 moritz oh
19:04 moritz timeless: then https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typographical_error is the proper URL for you
19:04 moritz :-)
19:04 timeless :-)
19:04 huf that article should be under Tyopgraphical_error
19:04 BrokenRobot Fuck it. Was gonna attempt to fix the S15/S26 missing the message, but I'm stymied with Pod::To::HTML
19:04 geekosaur BrokenRobot, I don't think perl 6 wants you to define names in other people's namespaces like that? (although maybe it should... I cannot say)
19:05 huf in fact, the correct spelling of typo should be changed to tyop quietly
19:05 huf so people still keep spelling it typo
19:05 geekosaur correct way is probably package main { sub ... {} }
19:05 BrokenRobot geekosaur: but isn't it in Pod::To::HTML namespace? I've no idea where main:: is comign from
19:06 * geekosaur eyes file...
19:06 geekosaur just foir grins and giggles, try each of these separately:
19:07 geekosaur (1) remove the leading space on line 30
19:07 geekosaur (2) comment out line 30 (which will cause a different error later, of course)
19:08 * geekosaur being nasty suspicious at parser >.>
19:09 BrokenRobot Nothing changed with neither (1) nor (2). Same error about main::escape_html
19:09 geekosaur odd
19:10 BrokenRobot :S
19:10 BrokenRobot I think I may be hitting a precomp bug. Just typed utter trash into the file, but same error
19:11 BrokenRobot Gonna try updating perl6
19:11 * geekosaur updates so he can play...
19:11 geekosaur yeh
19:12 geekosaur but, that's just weird. it's defined in a unit module, it's not a qualified name, it should have that module's package as qualification...
19:12 geekosaur and it's happening at compile time so hard to call it precomp
19:12 geekosaur oh wait
19:12 * geekosaur just reexamined gist
19:13 geekosaur why are you running perl 6 source in perl (aka perl 5)?
19:13 BrokenRobot EGAWDS
19:13 geekosaur ...because that is a parl 5 error
19:13 geekosaur *perl
19:13 BrokenRobot Damn, yeah, I was using `perl` instead of `perl6` ~_~
19:13 BrokenRobot geekosaur++
19:14 moritz that's a good reason to always "use v6;" at the top
19:14 geekosaur ^
19:14 BrokenRobot heresy! :)
19:14 moritz heresay!
19:14 geekosaur I even noticed that when looking at it initially but didn't twig that you were actually running it in perl5
19:14 BrokenRobot I think I can handle being burnt by that one more time before I'll start using v6 :P
19:14 moritz erm, hearsay
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19:16 geekosaur aaand, it kinda tells you something that p5 didn't see anything wrong until it hit that sub definition, and even then gave a less than sensible error (oh yes, I know why, but damn perl5 accepts so much trash...)
19:17 BrokenRobot :)
19:17 yqt joined #perl6
19:19 moritz it still surprises me that perl 5 accepts whitespace between sigils and variable names
19:20 geekosaur that iirc is a specific hack
19:21 moritz as is basically everything in toke.c :-)
19:21 geekosaur becaue perl language modes treated $ as an escape (to get names like $! right) and then blew up on ${expr}
19:21 geekosaur so $ {expr} was made to work
19:21 geekosaur and that means any other $name can also have whitespace
19:22 domidumont joined #perl6
19:25 timeless heh
19:26 geekosaur (to be clear I'm talking about editor modes there, not perl itself, wrt $ as escape. admittedly hacking the language parser to work around editor deficiencies is itself weird, but at the same time very perl5)
19:28 dalek mu: 22dfad9 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | util/update-design.perl6.org.sh:
19:28 dalek mu: Make Pod6 pages also have historic message
19:28 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/22dfad9b3e
19:29 hankache joined #perl6
19:30 BrokenRobot Someone with sudo access on hack needs to log in as design.perl6.org and update Pod::To::HTML module to include my css fix: https://github.com/perl6/Pod-To-HTML
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19:32 moritz doing it now
19:32 moritz (ftr the HTML is built on hack
19:42 timeless is jnthn ~ jonathanstowe?
19:42 konobi nope
19:43 konobi jonathanstowe == RabidGravy
19:43 RabidGravy yes
19:43 huggable joined #perl6
19:46 * timeless pines for a way to run htmlify faster
19:47 BrokenRobot Weird. http://docs.perl6.org/fasdfdsfsdf shows proper 404 page, but http://docs.perl6.org/routine/%2F%2F doesn't :/
19:48 timeless BrokenRobot: the app server version doesn't have that problem ...
19:49 BrokenRobot timeless: it's an entirely different beast, so... :)
19:49 * timeless argues that this is a bug
19:50 timeless RabidGravy: also, i don't suppose you can explain how documents get their names...
19:50 BrokenRobot timeless: the purpose of the app server version is for people who don't want to install Apache for dev. If you got it installed, feel free to experience the same version as on the live site.
19:50 AlexDaniel umm
19:51 AlexDaniel http://docs.perl6.org/routine.html
19:51 AlexDaniel trait… which trait?
19:51 AlexDaniel (first item in the list)
19:51 timeless AlexDaniel: neat
19:51 timeless i hope i didn't break that..
19:52 * timeless finally figures out why the NF* classes are so broken
19:53 * timeless will commit fix once the build finishes for NaN
19:54 RabidGravy timeless, I have no special knowledge in this regard
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19:55 timeless RabidGravy: so, i tried adding Constants to Num
19:55 timeless and it doesn't appear
19:56 timeless afaict, there's some black magic elsewhere blocking it https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/GOIjVcxB/
19:57 dalek doc: 9765cb3 | (Josh Soref)++ | doc/Type/NF (3 files):
19:57 dalek doc: fix articles for NF* unicode classes
19:57 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/9765cb3f4d
19:59 timeless i don't understand what's special about `Num`
19:59 RabidGravy well, it appears exactly like that in Slip so a bit unsure
20:00 [Coke] (htmlify faster) I will hopefully have some time this week to hack on doc's makefile branch, which might help repeat builds go faster, anyway.
20:00 timeless i tried getting htmlify to fork
20:00 timeless but i really don't know what it was doing
20:02 RabidGravy incidentally Num could do with having its methods documented
20:03 [Coke] the makefile branch is trying to split it out into chunks so that we can || build that way.
20:03 RabidGravy the only difference I can see in Slip is that it already has a =head1 Methods as well as =head1 Constants
20:04 RabidGravy but I've never looked at the way the HTML is produced
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20:17 dalek doc: 4fba789 | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | doc/Type/Baggy.pod:
20:17 dalek doc: Added docs for Baggy.pickpairs
20:17 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/4fba789fbb
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20:23 parabolize When building html for the docs is it normal to need to remove precompiled/ before running `make html`? `make clean` doesn't remove the files in that directory. If I don't remove them the web pages don't seem to change.
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20:33 moritz I've never used the makefile, I just run htmlify.p6
20:33 [Coke] ...all the makefile does is run htmlify
20:33 parabolize right
20:33 [Coke] someone added precomp support, but I'm not sure they added its cleanup to clean
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20:34 [Coke] nope. no precomp in any clean* targets.
20:35 [Coke] though ideally precomp would figure out if it was valid or not, and work properly.
20:35 [Coke] but we're doing it manually instead of relying on `perl6`
20:36 [Coke] so, "normal"'s not the right word, but it's not unexpected, no.
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20:38 timeless RabidGravy: this doesn't work either https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/7QQPo3fe/
20:40 timeless here's the generated content (with most other files deleted to speed generation time) https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin​/vzurfPbq/html%2Ftype%2FNum.html
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20:51 RabidGravy well, I'm so unfamiliar with the mechanics of the doc generation I would be tempted to just commit what you had in Num.pod, then if it doesn't show up on docs call it a bug
20:52 RabidGravy it works fine with the standard Pod::To::HTML - I guess the other stuff is post processed in
20:53 parabolize timeless: could you upload those files to something I could copy / paste
20:54 parabolize nevermind / I found the raw button
20:59 timeless parabolize + RabidGravy : thanks for working w/ me :)
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21:04 * timeless so doesn't understand this
21:05 timeless is it possible for Devel::Tracer to spit out the values of variables? :)
21:05 timeless ok, so, what exactly is the story on `perl6 --doc`?
21:06 timeless [timeless@gcc2-power8 doc0]$ perl6 --doc Devel::Trace
21:06 timeless Could not open Devel::Trace. Failed to stat file: no such file or directory
21:07 avuserow_ so last night, I used perl6 to do parsing of a multi-gigabyte file (mostly line-by-line but with rather large lines) and it worked great. I haven't implemented the interesting logic yet but it's still awesome that it's feasible with perl6 :)
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21:17 parabolize timeless: Everything in https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/7QQPo3fe/ seems to work for me. I had to add a `=begin pod` line but otherwise all the formatting seems to work.
21:18 parabolize timeless: I used perl6 --doc=HTML NaN.pod > NaN.html
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21:24 parabolize timeless: I think `p6doc Devel::Trace` does what you want.
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21:47 tbrowder avuserow_: did you compare times between your Perl 6 file reader and a Perl 5 version?  My readers show a 10+ times greater elapsed time for the Perl 6 vs Perl 5 on the same file.
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21:53 avuserow_ tbrowder: nope. certainly a Perl 5 version would be faster to execute, but then I'd need to rewrite a grammar into something that P5 could handle, and I'm not terribly interested in doing that. Doing a line-by-line version with some cheats is fast enough for my purposes.
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22:17 konobi also hard to say if JIT would help in the p6 case too
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22:21 timeless parabolize: i don't have a p6doc
22:22 timeless [timeless@gcc2-power8 doc0]$ ls ~/.rakudobrew/bin/
22:22 timeless moar  nqp-m  perl6-debug-m  perl6-m           pygmentize  rakudobrew.bat  zef-j
22:22 timeless nqp   perl6  perl6-gdb-m    perl6-valgrind-m  rakudobrew  zef             zef-m
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22:30 timotimo it's a module
22:30 AlexDaniel m: ‘≬’.uniname.say
22:30 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«BETWEEN␤»
22:30 timotimo i mean, a module supplies the binary for you
22:30 AlexDaniel between what
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22:32 dalek doc: cbaf749 | coke++ | doc/404.pod:
22:32 dalek doc: Update language on 404.
22:32 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/cbaf74900d
22:33 dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 160 commits to doc/makefile by coke
22:34 AlexDaniel m: ‘🙂’.uniname.say
22:34 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«SLIGHTLY SMILING FACE␤»
22:35 AlexDaniel m: ‘🙼’.uniname.say
22:35 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«VERY HEAVY SOLIDUS␤»
22:35 AlexDaniel wow, how heavy
22:40 Xliff Is there a unicode symbol for "Heavy Water" ??
22:40 Xliff 🙂
22:41 Xliff VERY HEAVY LIQUIDUS
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22:42 Xliff So here's a trick question. I have a C-lib that returns pointers to CStructs. However, most of this is done via CPointers.
22:43 Xliff If created using P6. We want to use classes based on the CStructs. However, how can we equate that to returned CPointers from the C-Lib?
22:44 Xliff I wish I had targetted code to show, but you can look at the tests here: https://github.com/Xliff/p6-XML-Lib​XML/blob/master/t/06elements-port.t
22:44 Xliff Based on the classes
22:45 Xliff https://github.com/Xliff/p6-XML-LibXM​L/blob/master/lib/XML/LibXML/Attr.pm
22:45 Xliff https://github.com/Xliff/p6-XML-LibXM​L/blob/master/lib/XML/LibXML/Node.pm
22:45 Xliff Which are based on the structs found here: https://github.com/Xliff/p6-XML-LibXML/​blob/master/lib/XML/LibXML/CStructs.pm
22:46 Xliff I have a feeling the simplistic approach I have gone with for the additions to Node.pm and Attr.pm may require nqp.
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23:04 stevieb9 does anyone here that I see regularly committing to perl6 use it at $work in production? If so, in what capacity? If not, do you know anyone who does? again... for what?
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23:07 b2gills stevieb9: You could look through the irclog if you are really interested, I remember at least one person mentioning that they did
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23:07 ugexe i've had contracts where i've put perl6 into production. all parsing related
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23:08 stevieb9 b2gills: thanks, I'll do that
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23:09 stevieb9 ugexe: I'm just a newb, but I can already see the benefits of perl6 parsing. I'm wading and playing with the basics, but regex looks extremely potent in perl6 vs perl5, and perl5 is no slouch
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23:11 stevieb9 what I mean is the way you can build regexes... not particularly regex capabilities themselves
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23:13 Zoffix weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
23:13 yoleaux 14:22Z <AlexDaniel> Zoffix: please review https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/d03ad1b472
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23:13 Zoffix stevieb, I use it + a couple of Perl 5 modules (via Inline::Perl5) at work for scraping webpages. I'd use it much more if it had a web framework on the quality comparable to Perl 5's Mojolicious  (most of my programming at $work is web-related)
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23:14 stevieb9 at first, the amount of what I'd call 'symbolism' in perl6 appeared intimidating at first, but as I slowly get time to play around, much of it so far works logically. for instance the hyper operator
23:15 stevieb9 Zoffix: that's awesome to know. You've mentioned a bit before about what you use at work. I did not know you used perl6 at all though. I assumed that was your own time like me :)
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23:16 stevieb9 my goal is, by the end of July, to have my first perl6 distribution (do we call them dists here?) included, and as I work on a second, keep patching the first with more perl6-isms as I learn
23:16 Zoffix yeah, dists
23:16 stevieb9 cool
23:17 stevieb9 I've already built a dist in perl6, but clearly not ready to be included yet, however I'm getting the process.
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23:19 stevieb9 I've been going through docs one-by-one (Types, at this time and bouncing around), and making notes in a scripts repo of the concepts I wouldn't conceive of to force it into memory. That also allows me to spot any issues in the docs, which, of course, I will patch
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23:22 stevieb9 today, I printed a couple of copies of the Types mapping image. One is pinned to the wall in my office, the other at home. It really helps. I think it should be at the top of the doc, but that's something I'd ask more experienced folks about before I changed. That's not like a typo or something ;)
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23:29 stevieb9 Zoffix: if you're still located where your github profile says you are, I'd really like to take you out for dinner or something downtown next time I fly home. You've been helpful across the board for years
23:32 Zoffix Thanks, but I don't like interacting with people in meatspace :)
23:33 stevieb9 lol, fair enough
23:35 stevieb9 I'm trying to convince #p5p to do the next conference in Calgary, as I've never been to one, and would really like to meet some perl people in person.
23:35 stevieb9 my sales pitch: AB is in recession, so there's likely deals on hotels to be had
23:36 Zoffix The Weekly says "TimToady removed a warning when creating an Enum from a Range."... What exactly does Enum from a Range look like?
23:36 stevieb9 15 years into perl, figure I could get involved physically
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