Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2016-06-16

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:23 kurahaupo stevieb9: we should have a Perl conference in Australia, we have camels ...
00:25 stevieb9 kurahaupo: I'd rather have it in the Great White North, as that'll allow me to get the camel off my back, which would be the cost of travel ;)
00:26 stevieb9 it is on my roadmap though tbh, to travel to Australia, as I'm a huge outdoor person
00:27 diakopter you're too huge for indoors?
00:27 kid51 joined #perl6
00:27 Zoffix :P
00:27 stevieb9 diakopter: my desire for being outdoors is ;)
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00:28 diakopter now I miss all the nick sexiness
00:28 stevieb9 I camp in the mountains in the winter. I photograph things in places in the mountains that most people couldn't imagine going to
00:29 * sexy-coder-girl waves to diakopter
00:29 sexy-coder-girl :)
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00:29 stevieb9 diakopter: there, fixed
00:29 stevieb9 lol
00:29 diakopter :o
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00:30 Zoffix TIL hibernate on stuff run on VirtualBox doesn't work
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00:31 safinaskar what language rakudo written in?
00:32 Zoffix safinaskar, Perl 6
00:32 safinaskar Zoffix: so, rakudo build-depends on itself?
00:32 Zoffix safinaskar, heh :) Well, it uses NQP http://perl6.party/post/Per​l-6-is-written-in...-Perl-6
00:32 diakopter Perl 6, lots of nqp (a small subset of Perl 6), lots of C
00:32 MadcapJake Perl 6 and NQP
00:33 Zoffix Hm, actually that article ain't that useful.
00:33 safinaskar thanks, reading
00:33 diakopter C and NQP vastly outweigh the Perl 6, afaik
00:34 Zoffix Language chart strongly disagrees :) https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo
00:34 MadcapJake iiuc, the VM is in C, the parser is in NQP, and the semantics are in Perl 6
00:35 diakopter Zoffix: I think you're forgetting the NQP and MoarVM repos
00:35 Zoffix diakopter, but the question was "what language rakudo is written in" :)
00:36 safinaskar is this possible to build rakudo without rakudo binary available? and without any full-featured perl 6 compiler?
00:36 diakopter -_-
00:36 MadcapJake most languages are bundled with their VM though
00:36 Zoffix safinaskar, yes it is.
00:36 MadcapJake safinaskar: every time you build it, that's how it's done
00:36 diakopter I'm quite sure the questioner wanted to know about Perl 6 as a whole
00:36 safinaskar Zoffix: okey, so what you need? NQP compiler/interpreter?
00:36 AlexDaniel https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/599
00:37 safinaskar diakopter: yes
00:37 safinaskar diakopter: but it seems rakudo is default compiler for perl 6, so i am asking about it
00:37 Zoffix safinaskar, just Perl 5 and C compiler
00:37 MadcapJake safinaskar: so NQP is a lower-level Perl 6 without any syntax sugaring and that language gets bootstrapped in C
00:37 Zoffix safinaskar, this my alias for rebuilding of perl6: update-perl6 is aliased to `rm -fr ~/.zef; rm -fr ~/.perl6; rm -fr ~/.rakudobrew/; git clone https://github.com/tadzik/rakudobrew ~/.rakudobrew; rakudobrew build moar; rakudobrew build zef;'
00:38 Zoffix safinaskar, and I had to add this to PATH:   export PATH=$PATH:~/.rakudobrew/bin:~/.rakudobre​w/moar-nom/install/share/perl6/site/bin/
00:38 Zoffix s/PATH/.bashrc
00:38 Zoffix And that brews rakudo on MoarVM
00:39 diakopter where is the github language graph
00:39 MadcapJake safinaskar: check out rakudobrew source or rakudo-star make files if you're interested in how it's bootstrapped
00:39 Zoffix diakopter, the colored line below the "commits  braches  releases..." click on it
00:40 AlexDaniel it lies
00:40 AlexDaniel most of the time
00:40 diakopter yeah, here it subsumes nqp into Perl 6
00:40 MadcapJake that's my fault :(
00:41 MadcapJake I think
00:41 MadcapJake depending on if they are using my language-perl6fe for heuristic purposes
00:41 diakopter well it's fine, as long as you know most of it is nqp, and most of the (large) nqp repo is in NQP
00:42 diakopter so I stand by my claim
00:42 MadcapJake (which I'm not sure that they do, I think that linguist actually uses internal heuristics for filetype detection)
00:43 MadcapJake https://github.com/github/linguist/blo​b/0669a83e403f7a094ee4e6b4cf6a17c321f5​0ebb/lib/linguist/languages.yml#L2795
00:44 Zoffix Yeah, and that gets a lot of Perl 5 wrongly as Perl 6  (https://github.com/kraih/mojo/pull/804  https://github.com/github/linguist/issues/2149)
00:44 diakopter lolz
00:47 diakopter safinaskar: so to answer your question, you need Perl 5, git, and a mainstream C compiler
00:47 safinaskar AlexDaniel: thanks for creating issue (i commented it)
00:48 Zoffix safinaskar, well, you can build perl 5 from source too ( http://perlbrew.pl ). It's written in C
00:49 safinaskar okey, so c -> perl 5 -> perl 6, right? no cyrcilar dependencies and everything from human-written files, right?
00:49 Zoffix The trust trust thing kinda assumes you're willing to read thousands if not millions of line of code for something :P
00:50 Zoffix Especially since perl is installed pretty much on every *nix
00:50 MadcapJake safinaskar: no
00:50 safinaskar MadcapJake: ?
00:51 MadcapJake perl 5 is only involved in scripts for building, the actual bootstrapping is C -> NQP -> NQP + Perl 6 -> Perl 6
00:52 Zoffix I think the question is Is this possible to build rakudo using only human-written non-generated text files and C and C++ compilers and nothing more?
00:52 safinaskar MadcapJake: cool. thanks
00:52 Zoffix \o/
00:52 safinaskar Zoffix: yes and MadcapJake answered it
00:52 diakopter safinaskar: no, you don't need to build Perl 5
00:53 diakopter safinaskar: you just need to have it installed
00:53 diakopter and the make utility
00:53 diakopter (or nmake on Windows)
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00:56 dj_goku_ isn't there an initiative to remove a few dependencies for building and build them in NQP/Perl6?
00:59 AlexDaniel dj_goku_: not sure if there was, but well volunteered!
01:01 dj_goku_ haha
01:01 diakopter hard to imagine losing any of those (C or Perl 5 or make)
01:01 dj_goku_ I am currently just learning perl6. :D I have a project in mind already.
01:02 safinaskar thanks everybody
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01:11 grondilu #128156
01:11 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=128156
01:12 grondilu ^ignore this.  That was just me getting the link.
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01:29 timeless timotimo: what module?
01:29 timotimo p6doc
01:29 timotimo huggable: p6doc
01:29 huggable timotimo, nothing found
01:30 timotimo we should have something there, but ... what?
01:30 timeless so, zef install p6doc?
01:33 timeless ok, so that put it into /home/timeless/hg/perl6/rakudobrew/m​oar-nom/install/share/perl6/site/bin but my path has ~/.rakudobrew/bin/ in the path
01:34 timeless what's the rhyme/reason it didn't go into that place?
01:36 timotimo if you're using zef, then yes. afterwards you need to rakudobrew rehash to make the symlink appear
01:36 timeless ah
01:37 timeless ok, I didn't know about rehash
01:37 timeless where was I supposed to find out about it?
01:38 timotimo hm, the rakudobrew readme should have stuff about it
01:38 timeless it doesn't :)
01:38 timotimo ok. then just rakudobrew with no arguments ought to say a bit about it
01:39 timeless it mentions that it exists, but that's hardly a hint that I should use it..
01:39 timotimo hm.
01:39 timotimo *shrugs*, i don't use rakudobrew
01:39 timeless i'm +1 to adding it to the README
01:39 timotimo i have that perl6/site/bin in my path instead
01:40 timotimo having support for post-install hooks in panda and zef may be interesting
01:40 timeless +1
01:40 timotimo so that it can rehash automatically when a binary gets installed
01:40 timotimo i'm not going to do the design work for that, though
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01:47 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
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02:00 Xliff Hrm!
02:00 Xliff Ran into another endless loop.
02:01 Xliff libxml2 does some crazy stuff that looks to be confusing GC.
02:05 Xliff Yeah. Think I'll stop there for the night.
02:05 timotimo it shouldn't. but you may have to "anchor" a few things "down" so they don't get reclaimed and overwritten
02:06 Xliff Oh? How so?
02:06 Xliff Especially considering the underlying lib likes to keep its own lists of pointers.
02:06 Xliff Which might also be in use by rakudo.
02:07 Xliff I "got passed" this already, today. However the fix I used earlier doesn't appear to be working now.
02:07 timotimo only things that get created by things like CStruct.new or something will be reclaimed when the GC doesn't find a path to it any more
02:07 Xliff Well, I'm doing TDD.
02:07 timotimo test drven, yeah?
02:07 Xliff So most of the things that are used are retrieved from libxml2 with few exceptions.
02:08 Xliff Yes. Test driven.
02:08 timotimo that shouldn't be so problematic, then
02:11 Xliff Almost certain the problem starts here: https://github.com/Xliff/p6-XML-LibXML/b​lob/06elements/t/06elements-port.t#L173
02:12 Xliff Which refers to here: https://github.com/Xliff/p6-XML-LibXML/bl​ob/06elements/lib/XML/LibXML/Node.pm#L351
02:12 timotimo if you "use nqp;" you can throw around nqp::force_gc() everywhere
02:12 Xliff Yeah, but the gc is what's causing the problem. Donno if I wanna do that.
02:13 timotimo it might make the problem appear closer to its source
02:13 Xliff If I comment out the "$elem.removeAttributeNode( $tattr );" the script will run to the end with no problems.
02:14 Xliff But I think I'm dealing with a corrupted linked list in libxml2 which is causing rakudo's GC to go nuts.
02:15 Xliff Even so, I've gone from 17 tests to almost 35. I think I will get some Z's and approach it fresh, tomorrow.
02:15 Xliff There are some XS calls I'm curious about that I have yet to grok which might be the key to fixing things.
02:16 Xliff Thanks for the help timotimo++
02:16 timotimo i'm sorry i'm not terribly helpful, though
02:16 Xliff It's Nativecall.... I knew what I was getting into! =)
02:16 timotimo :)
02:16 Xliff <- NC masochist.
02:16 Xliff I really should see someone about that.
02:17 Xliff o7 #perl6!
02:17 timotimo take care
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03:01 dalek doc: fd659f8 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/faq.pod:
03:01 dalek doc: link to rakudo homepage
03:01 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/fd659f8844
03:05 timeless oh, wow
03:06 timeless so, Devel::Trace is really a pretty simple script, w/o perldoc?
03:06 timeless https://github.com/Altai-man/perl6-Deve​l-Trace/blob/master/lib/Devel/Trace.pm6
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03:22 dalek doc: f59187e | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Num.pod:
03:22 dalek doc: doc NaN
03:22 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f59187e7e3
03:30 timeless is that person on irc? ^
03:31 gfldex <--
03:31 timeless gfldex: did that actually work for you? when I tried it, I didn't see it in the generated html
03:31 gfldex it takes about 30min to build the docs
03:32 gfldex there is a timestamp in the footer
03:32 timeless you can prune the docs to one or two files
03:32 gfldex i can but the build process doesnt
03:32 gfldex besides i got my own html renderer that's a wee bit faster
03:32 timeless sure, but it works for testing
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03:33 timeless this is what i was using to test a change like what you pushed https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/TYiCATmm/
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03:49 dalek doc: c486510 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Num.pod:
03:49 dalek doc: better index entry for NaN
03:49 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/c4865107e0
03:49 dalek doc: 8495700 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/ (3 files):
03:49 dalek doc: fix and add links to NaN
03:49 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/84957006f7
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04:03 dalek doc: 2bfb500 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Num.pod:
04:03 dalek doc: fix typo
04:03 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/2bfb500c0e
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04:11 dalek doc: ff74bc4 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/classtut.pod:
04:11 dalek doc: add index entry for is to classtut
04:11 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/ff74bc42ba
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05:12 buharin hello my friends
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07:07 RabidGravy boom!
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07:17 moritz bang!
07:18 nine bong?
07:19 moritz nine: I expected no less from you :-)
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07:27 masak gøød mørning, #pørl6
07:29 buharin hi :)
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07:29 buharin I am happy to be with you
07:29 buharin guys
07:30 masak and gals and bots
07:31 moritz we need a productive prefix or postfix that makes a word genderless
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07:36 tadzik this somewhat reminds me of the South Park episode about changing the flag
07:37 tadzik like, will we someday have people so gender-neutral in their minds that they won't even know that "guy" and "gal" (and "bot") may actually refer to different kinds of people
07:40 masak tadzik: what you're describing is called "Finnish" and "Estonian" :)
07:41 masak tadzik: when I was growing up, I kept hearing this story about my grandfather answering the door, and two officials asked if they could talk to his wife. "No, he is not at home," said my grandfather.
07:42 masak tadzik: (why? because Estonian only has a gender-neutral pronoun, and so translating sometimes simply results in he/she noise.)
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07:43 masak tadzik: of course, the story was probably much funnier back in the 60s when it was suitable scandalous to entertain the notion of same-sex marriage in most circles.
07:43 masak suitably*
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07:45 tadzik :)
07:46 tadzik people of the future since the 60s
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08:08 masak I won't make it to YAPC::Europe this year :/
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08:09 masak I've managed to get to all YAPC::Europes since 2008, so this will be a first
08:10 masak in quite a while
08:11 masak anyway, I've decided to submit a talk, not to YAPC::Europe, but to my own as-yet-unnamed private Perl conference with the same prestige and glamour as YAPC::Europe, but only one attendant and one speaker
08:12 nine moritz: sorry to hear :(
08:12 masak hey, I'm over here
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08:14 masak the title of my talk is (provisionally) "Strapping Young Language", and it's about the -- ongoing -- 007 effort to parse and run itself
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08:18 tadzik I didn't make it to last year's, and I'm still a bit on the fence with Cluj
08:19 tadzik I actually cancelled a talk submission just before the 2nd acceptance wave hit
08:20 nine I'll be there but I won't submit any talks this year. Total lack of energy :/
08:20 masak if anyone else wants to submit talks to my personal conference, I will consider it, but my acceptance criteria are pretty steep, so you'd better come well-prepared with a good reason for me to accept you :P
08:20 jnthn o.O :)
08:21 masak also, if anyone wants me to help name my conf, I'll gladly accept help
08:21 * jnthn ain't sure he can meet that high bar :P
08:21 masak jnthn: I dunno, have you done anything of significance within the Perl community? :P
08:21 masak jnthn: you're a bit of an unknown, so that's not working in your favor... :P
08:21 jnthn Not really...wrote some little VM thingy, did a few compiler patches...
08:21 * masak is suddenly afraid he didn't put enough ":P"s on that
08:22 jnthn :P
08:22 nine masak: no risk, no fun ;)
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08:22 tadzik masak: I assume "masacon" is already considered? :P
08:23 masak tadzik: it was not. now is being considered by the High Committee.
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08:24 jnthn Heh, thanks to 007 thing and your name I came up with... Bond, Discussion, Software, Masak :P
08:24 nine masak: isn't "masak's normal day at home" or short "manodaho conference" closer to the truth? ;)
08:24 masak jnthn: I see what you did there
08:24 tadzik :D:D:D
08:25 masak jnthn: would be more fitting if it were a Python conference *ba doom dish*
08:26 moritz masak: will you be live streaming your conference?
08:27 masak moritz: I'm considering making a recording, and then having it be stuck in editing for eight months.
08:27 nine masak: so you even want to publish faster than most conferences? Nice!
08:28 dalek doc: 08c8bb6 | parabolize++ | doc/Type/Cancellation.pod:
08:28 dalek doc: document Cancellation #589
08:28 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/08c8bb688c
08:28 masak it's also possible I end up in a room of my house that has no video recording equipment set up
08:30 moritz we could consider doing an internet live conference thingy at some point
08:30 masak This Just In: live-streaming may actually be a possibility
08:30 masak Stay Tuned™
08:31 moritz like, with Google Hangouts or something like that
08:31 masak well, it turns out my employer might be buying some equipment, and this would be a good test for it
08:31 moritz what a crazy random happenstance
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08:38 sortiz \o #perl6
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08:44 andreoss why there's no x86 build of the latest rakudo-start for windows?
08:47 moritz because nobody did them so far
08:50 sortiz I got an sporadic failure under "hyper": "Internal error: unhandled dyncall argument type"
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08:51 andreoss is there an instruction for building msi file for rakudo star?
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09:04 dalek doc: d6ca213 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/typesystem.pod:
09:04 dalek doc: doc is trait in typesystem
09:04 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/d6ca2130e5
09:04 dalek doc: 6036651 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Cancellation.pod:
09:04 dalek doc: Merge branch 'master' of https://github.com/perl6/doc
09:04 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/60366513ef
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09:25 andreoss rakudo-star is trying to download modules from internet during installation
09:26 andreoss should it be so?
09:27 moritz no, that's a bug in star
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09:30 gfldex m: Mu.^methods.grep({.name ~~ 'WHAT'|'WHERE'}).say
09:30 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«(WHERE)␤»
09:30 gfldex where does .WHAT come from?
09:31 nine gfldex: it's a bit like a macro
09:31 nine it's not a real method
09:31 psch it's a hardcoded methodop in Perl6::Grammar, currently
09:31 psch although ISTR that it's to be turned into a real macro eventually
09:36 andreoss moritz: panda is doing it
09:36 andreoss trying to get some metadata
09:36 jnthn Thing it's actually handled in Actions, after parsing it as a method call
09:36 jnthn *Think
09:37 andreoss also using non-existent --unlink option for wget
09:37 jnthn Not sure we'll ever truly do it as a macro, because bootstrapping.
09:37 psch right, it's in %deftrap iirc, which maps the matched token to nqp ops
09:37 gfldex $past.op('what'); <-- found it!
09:39 jnthn .HOW and .WHO are similar
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09:39 gfldex m: Mu.^methods.grep({.name ~~ 'WHAT'|'WHERE'}).say # i'm a bit unhappy about that
09:39 nine Would making those real macros actually have advantages?
09:39 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«(WHERE)␤»
09:42 jnthn nine: Intellectual beauty...so essentially "no" ;P
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09:46 dalek doc: 027d023 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Metamodel/MethodContainer.pod:
09:46 dalek doc: accuse .^methods of omitting WHAT
09:46 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/027d023cd2
09:48 masak jnthn, nine: since methods are late-bound, if they're macros they can't actually be methods. they'd have to be postfix ops or something.
09:49 jnthn masak: Yes, we'd have to treat them that way
09:49 jnthn And I note that'd get icky with given 'foo' { .WHAT.say }
09:49 jnthn 'cus there's nothing to postfix there
09:49 masak ick, yes
09:49 masak hadn't thought of that
09:49 masak that one'd have to be a macro term...
09:50 jnthn Maybe we need a word for macro-esque things to de-confuse them with things that truly make sense to do as macros
09:50 masak I've been saying this for a long time ;)
09:50 masak "macro-esque" worksforme, fwiw
09:50 jnthn 'cus so far I can see close to zero actual win in trying to get this case to be done in terms of real macros
09:51 masak TimToady seems to be well aware that he doesn't *actually* mean "macro" when he calls these "macro-ish"
09:51 jnthn gfldex: That's doc commit is kinda misleading because .WHAT simply is not a method. It's a special form handled by the compiler.
09:51 masak but rather "specially picked up by the compiler and treated differently"
09:52 jnthn It'd be better just to say that than claim they *are* introspection methods (because they aren't, and won't be because they can't be)
09:52 masak "special form" is also a fine description, rather than "macro-ish"
09:57 dalek doc: fd61951 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Metamodel/MethodContainer.pod:
09:57 dalek doc: don't call non-methods methods
09:57 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/fd6195170b
10:01 safinaskar does rakudo depend on std.pm6 and viv? does it need it for compilation?
10:01 gfldex no
10:03 safinaskar gfldex: thanks
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10:07 DrForr Well, the news is out now :) If I get even 3 people I'll be surprised :/
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10:21 Woodi_ so, if we are into photo terminology like roll, macro (and lenses used somewhere) then few are still free: zoom (a bit opposite of macro), shutter, "field of view", mirror, prism (that can be already used ;)), plane, dial, aperture, lever, knob and probably more :)
10:21 rurban2 joined #perl6
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10:23 Woodi_ subtypes: "where" is equivalent of: sub foo ($x) { if $x <= 0 { fail }; ... }  ?
10:24 wamba joined #perl6
10:25 gfldex if you ignore introspection and possible compiler magic, then yes, they are equivalent
10:25 Woodi_ right, main type is probably checked too...
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10:43 DrForr Given something like constant X = 3; my @x = X, 2; # @x.WHO reports 'Int', is there a way to determine that the value came from a constant?
10:43 DrForr Er, @x[0].WHO.
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10:46 gfldex m: my $Y = 42; constant X = 3; say X.VAR.^name, $Y.VAR.^name
10:46 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«IntScalar␤»
10:46 gfldex DrForr: ^^^
10:52 vendethiel joined #perl6
10:52 DrForr Cool, thanks.
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11:18 gfldex DrForr: there maybe custom container types that are writeable tho. You may have found the limits of introspection.
11:22 DrForr I was hoping to get some sort of type, or at least an indication of an attribute.
11:25 gregf_ DrForr: try changing the value and if its immutable then its a constant :| #ugly
11:25 DrForr (realizing that 'constant' isn't a type but an attribute helps, my concentration is a bit scattered at teh moment.
11:25 DrForr s/.$/)/
11:26 gregf_ m: constant A = 100;try { A = 200; CATCH { say "a constant"; }} #like that, awful
11:26 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«a constant␤Cannot modify an immutable Int␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
11:27 gregf_ m: my $Y = "foo"; say $Y.VAR.^name
11:27 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«Scalar␤»
11:29 jnthn constant just binds a value to a symbol; by runtime all you have is a symbol pointing to a value.
11:29 dalek ecosystem: 462d064 | (Alexey Melezhik)++ | META.list:
11:29 dalek ecosystem: Add sparrowdo to ecosystem
11:29 dalek ecosystem:
11:29 dalek ecosystem: See https://github.com/melezhik/sparrowdo
11:29 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/e​cosystem/commit/462d064070
11:29 dalek ecosystem: a6a4645 | azawawi++ | META.list:
11:29 dalek ecosystem: Merge pull request #219 from melezhik/master
11:29 dalek ecosystem:
11:29 dalek ecosystem: Add sparrowdo to ecosystem
11:29 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/e​cosystem/commit/a6a46451d6
11:31 DrForr I need to rethink the rationale behind using constants in this case then, the concept I'm toying with may not map well to p6. I didn't think it did initially, so this really is just further proof. I can do most of what I want with strings.
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12:03 * masak wasn't aware of the difference between X and $X constants
12:07 buharin hi :)
12:08 moritz masak: what about the difference between X and and $X chromosomes?
12:08 moritz hi buharin :-)
12:08 gfldex $X chromosomes are mutable :)
12:09 masak moritz: I bet Monsanto is involved somehow, wanting to profit from our $DNA
12:09 buharin I go chance to push perl6 to small buisness
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12:10 buharin but need a good web framework
12:10 masak well volunteered!
12:11 masak buharin: at this juncture I would try out a good Perl 5 web framework
12:11 masak because you would get several orders of magnitude better quality, speed, and stability
12:12 masak thanks to the stellar work of nine, though, you can still do this while using Perl 6
12:12 masak theoretically
12:12 Woodi and HN reported yesterday that how DNA string is *folded* is also important :) I wonder is it influential on boxers... :)
12:13 buharin masak: yeah I think about it because that only I know it is Bailador but it is not ready for commercial use
12:13 Woodi buharin: buharin++ ! :)
12:13 masak buharin: I recently switched from Bailador to HTTP::Server::Tiny for a web app I was using
12:14 buharin oh nice
12:14 masak buharin: the selling point for the latter for me was how nicely Supplies had been integrated into Server-Sent Events
12:14 masak a match made in heaven <3
12:16 Woodi first would be nice to have professional/commercial grade/secure/modern _log in_ framework...
12:17 masak Woodi: I hear many Perl 5 web frameworks have this
12:17 DrForr someone needs to push what they have to the ecosystem...
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12:19 jdv79 what do they have?
12:20 buharin could you show me Perl6 site sample?
12:20 buharin I am intrested how advance I can use it?
12:20 masak buharin: this is a simple-but-working (board game) app: https://github.com/masak/nex/blob/master/app.pl
12:20 masak notably, I don't yet have log-in/auth
12:20 DrForr Well, they (I) need to finish up the wiki code before heading overseas for a talk, but got distracted by Markdown.
12:20 masak but it *is* pure Perl 6
12:21 jdv79 is the p6sgi effort still a thing?
12:21 DrForr (yes, there's a Markdown translator in the p6 ecosystem, I managed to miss it.)
12:21 DrForr jdv79: I've seen the pod, I'm not sure how much work has gone into it as of late.
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12:22 buharin huh well
12:22 buharin I should try :D
12:23 buharin as I checked Swift there are created two good web frameworks
12:23 jdv79 hmm
12:23 buharin so fast
12:23 buharin but Perl6 community is quite tiny
12:24 buharin I would like to use something like Python Flask in Perl6
12:24 buharin I really liked it, however I amn't web dev in root
12:24 jdv79 Iniline::Python?
12:24 jdv79 *Inline
12:27 masak buharin: it's people like you, with an itch to scratch, that go on to create the next Flask-in-Perl 6
12:29 buharin it takes ages ;D
12:30 DrForr buharin: FWIW I got Dancer2 running with Inline::Perl5 without a lot of hassle. I don't know how networking and concurrency works with Inline::Python (if it does) but it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility :)
12:30 masak buharin: which is why I'm telling you *now* so you'll have a head start
12:31 buharin I have never been pioneer
12:32 DrForr First time for everything ;)
12:32 buharin haha :D
12:32 buharin if I can rely on yours review
12:32 buharin I would
12:32 NEveDko hi! what about webgui cms? however, it's quite old and perl5. but there is kickstarter project to finish rewrite which was abandoned by original authors (plainblack.com)
12:32 DrForr NEveDko: Well volunteered? :)
12:33 DrForr buharin: I'd be interesetd.
12:33 DrForr *interested
12:33 masak buharin: I would certainly help review
12:33 NEveDko DrForr: not much :) last time I checked
12:34 buharin masak: thnks :-)
12:34 perlpilot guten tag #perl6
12:34 BrokenRobot m: class Foo { method CALLME ($a) {say "o hai $a"}}; say Foo("meow")
12:34 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«Cannot find method 'Foo' on object of type Str␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
12:34 BrokenRobot wat?
12:35 masak gut'n t'g perlpilot
12:35 BrokenRobot Shouldn't this attemt to call the CALLME method and not Foo on Str?
12:35 NEveDko here it is...https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2083389021/c​reate-perl-competition-to-the-php-content-managem
12:35 DrForr BrokenRobot: Foo.new("meow"); # ?
12:36 zakharyas joined #perl6
12:36 BrokenRobot DrForr: that'd just pass "meow" to new method.
12:36 NEveDko i kinda like the idea. perhaps it's worth to consider rewrite into perl6
12:36 BrokenRobot m: say Int(42)
12:36 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«42␤»
12:36 BrokenRobot ^ I want this with my own class
12:36 masak m: class Foo { method CALL-ME ($a) {say "o hai $a"}}; Foo.new()("there")
12:36 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«o hai there␤»
12:36 masak BrokenRobot: ^
12:36 BrokenRobot ohh
12:36 masak m: class Foo { method CALL-ME ($a) {say "o hai $a"}}; Foo("there")
12:36 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«o hai there␤»
12:36 BrokenRobot Ah
12:36 BrokenRobot masak++
12:37 moritz method CALL-ME($MAYBE) { }
12:37 DrForr Oh, scrottie's target. And it was originally PHP.
12:38 BrokenRobot NEveDko: don't we already have Bee-something that no one cares about? :)
12:38 BrokenRobot http://pearlbee.org/
12:39 DrForr *cough*
12:39 BrokenRobot I guess I shouldn't say no one cares about, but rather, I've never met a single person using it.
12:39 DrForr Look at the latest committer :)
12:40 perlpilot Just because you made a commit doesn't mean you're using it  ;)
12:40 * BrokenRobot laughs
12:41 DrForr Four sites up and running with it, though I'll be the first to admit it's badly in need of TLC.
12:41 BrokenRobot DrForr: well, I guess my point is it's not the lack of CMS/blogging platforms that prevent Perl from competing with Wordpress :)
12:41 DrForr Allow me to reiterate the the Perl mantra: "We suck at marketing."
12:42 NEveDko BrokenRobot never heard of it :) looks nice
12:44 DrForr The handlers need a chainsaw taken to them, and properly implemented DBIx::Class.
12:45 DrForr blogs-perl-org is in better shape codewise, but not by much.
12:45 BrokenRobot It's a pain in the ass to use.
12:46 NEveDko btw, while we are debating web... is perl6 as client-side language (like javascript) in browsers ever happen? is it good idea?
12:46 masak I gave up years ago trying to log into blogs.perl.org to comment
12:46 DrForr github.com/drforr/blogs-perl-org - not the current site, but will be soon.
12:46 masak NEveDko: pmurias is working on a rakudo js backend
12:46 masak pmurias++, I should say
12:47 BrokenRobot NEveDko: it won't happen, as it'd require many browser vendors deciding to implement a parser for no good reason. But there is an aforementioned work in progress to make Perl 6 compile into JavaScript
12:48 vendethiel joined #perl6
12:48 masak I simply assumed that was what was meant
12:48 masak surely people aren't still attempting to *replace* JavaScript in any sense?
12:48 masak JavaScript has already won
12:49 BrokenRobot See! It's that kind of attitude is why we're stuck with JavaScript of all the things :)
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12:49 BrokenRobot DrForr: so it'll be running on PearlBee instead of MovableType?
12:49 DrForr Yep.
12:49 masak BrokenRobot: no, the attitude isn't the problem -- people have tried to replace JavaScript.
12:49 BrokenRobot DrForr++
12:50 masak BrokenRobot: see Java applets, Flash, Dart...
12:50 BrokenRobot masak: that was just a joke :)
12:50 BrokenRobot Java applets
12:50 * BrokenRobot shudders at the memory
12:50 masak and Java applets had a bigger PR budget than JavaScript ever had
12:53 gfldex does the following mean NYI or DEPRICATED? https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/​blob/nom/src/core/traits.pm#L445
12:57 BrokenRobot Does anyone remember where the stuff about making your object behave like a hash is documented? Like AT-KEY or something like that?
12:57 moritz gfldex: it's simply a trait that hasn't been declared
12:58 BrokenRobot never mind. recalling the method name gave me a good search term: http://docs.perl6.org/language/subscripts#AT-KEY
12:58 NEveDko BrokenRobot: I remember seeing that project mentioned on pl6anet.org... Question is, if perl6 in browser can bring some must-have funcionality compared to JS.
12:59 gfldex BrokenRobot: http://doc.perl6.org/language/variables#Sigils got an example, you will have to read the rakudo src for advanced stuff
13:00 BrokenRobot NEveDko: like what?
13:00 BrokenRobot There's probably a billion frameworks that implement everything that Perl 6 offers.
13:02 BrokenRobot The Object Model maybe
13:02 NEveDko BrokenRobot like "My favourite language finaly on client side! Finaly, I don't have to do JS" :)
13:02 Woodi NEveDko: Perl6 is just language like JS. "web features" are rather framework thingies...
13:02 donaldh o/
13:02 yoleaux 13 Apr 2016 15:12Z <hoelzro> donaldh: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/p​erl6/2016-04-13#i_12330426
13:03 BrokenRobot NEveDko: I think the majority of choices wouldn't be made by developers themselves.
13:03 BrokenRobot "I can hire a Perl 6 dev and have them do fullstack" is more like it
13:03 * BrokenRobot &
13:04 dalek doc: a8fadeb | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/variables.pod:
13:04 dalek doc: turn tabs into whitespaces
13:04 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/a8fadebb80
13:04 gregf_ wow, a robot that broken can think o.O
13:04 gregf_ *thats
13:05 gregf_ *and
13:05 NEveDko Woodi: But if you do complex site you cannot avoid coding, can you? At least some changed in code.
13:06 bjz joined #perl6
13:06 donaldh Debugging precomp on JVM is near impossible
13:09 Woodi btw. I learned yesterday about what exactly CSRFs are and have just one thought: WEB IS DOOOMNED!!1  you *need to* verify *optional* headers or duplikate tokens into cookies and other storage just for CSRF... and there are nore things like XSS and JS :)
13:09 lnrdo_ joined #perl6
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13:10 masak Woodi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_yet_it_moves
13:10 Woodi <img src="http://admin.somewhere.org/​?userAdd=hckr&amp;pass=abc"> <- works on page load :>
13:11 moritz Woodi: clever framework authors have added CSRF protection to their code
13:11 Woodi masak: my point is we should start perl6 web frameworks with basic components lik login, sessions, ...
13:11 moritz Woodi: do it!
13:11 moritz nobody objects
13:11 moritz it's just that nobody codes on-demand either
13:12 masak Woodi: I find your point unarguable :)
13:12 masak as in, you have my full blessing to start at that end
13:12 Woodi moritz: my problem is: I do not know new web technologies/requirement, like things 2001+
13:14 Woodi but thanx for incentive and blessing :)
13:15 dalek doc: 1957f8e | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/typesystem.pod:
13:15 dalek doc: we don't doc what will not work inside a class
13:15 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/1957f8e7db
13:15 dalek doc: fad1877 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/phasers.pod:
13:15 dalek doc: add will trait to index
13:15 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/fad187789b
13:15 BrokenRobot Woodi: sounds like a perfect execuse to learn them :)
13:15 masak as much as I like people contemplating entirely new efforts, I think it's just as valuable or maybe even more valuable when people add to existing efforts
13:16 masak one of the things I enjoy watching the most is cross-pollination between mature web frameworks, like Angular, React, Ember...
13:21 BrokenRobot m: my $a = "Te"; my $b = "st"; my $m = try { need "$a$b"; ::("$a$b") }; say $m.WHAT
13:21 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared routine:␤    need used at line 1␤␤»
13:22 BrokenRobot Any way of making that work? Basically, I have strings like "Foo" and "Bar" and I want to load modules "Foo::Meow::Foo" and "Foo::Meow::Bar"
13:23 BrokenRobot They're classes in separate files. So in the above I'd want to do $m.new after loading and get Foo::Meow::Foo object for example
13:25 skids joined #perl6
13:25 * [Coke]_ wakes up
13:26 gfldex m: my $a = "Te"; my $b = "st"; my $TEST = $a~$b; my $m = try { require $TEST; }; say $m.WHAT
13:26 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
13:28 BrokenRobot m: my $t = "Test"; require $t
13:28 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«Could not find Test in:␤    /home/camelia/.perl6␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/site␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/vendor␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6␤    CompUnit::Repository::AbsolutePath<67734160…»
13:29 * BrokenRobot didn't know we had `require` along with `need` and `use`
13:29 moritz m: m: my $t = "Test"; require ::($t)
13:29 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: ( no output )
13:30 sortiz m: my \Test = (require ::("Te"~"st")); say Test.WHAT;
13:30 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«(Test)␤»
13:30 sortiz BrokenRobot, require is at runtime, need and use at compile time.
13:30 BrokenRobot Thanks.
13:30 gfldex m: my $t = "Test"; require ::($t); plan 1
13:30 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared routine:␤    plan used at line 1␤␤»
13:30 Zero_Dogg joined #perl6
13:32 BrokenRobot gfldex: it doesn't import symbols
13:32 BrokenRobot star: my $t = "DBIish"; require ::($t); my $m = ::($t).new; say $m.^methods
13:32 camelia star-m 2016.04: OUTPUT«(err errstr connect install-driver install_driver installed-drivers)␤»
13:33 domidumont joined #perl6
13:35 sortiz m: my \Test = (require ::('Te'~'st') <&ok>); say Test.WHAT; ok 1; # With import 'ok'
13:35 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«(Test)␤ok 1 - ␤»
13:36 jdv79 https://gist.github.com/anonymous​/c090b60c608ad6d17d562eadcbf0391b
13:36 jdv79 why?
13:37 gfldex m: my $var = 'Test'; my \Test = (require ::($var) <&ok>); say Test.WHAT; ok 1; # With import 'ok'
13:37 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«(Test)␤ok 1 - ␤»
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14:10 Xliff_zzz m: say "found" if [1, 2, 3, 4].grep({ 2 });
14:10 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«found␤»
14:10 Xliff_zzz m: say "found" if [1, 2, 3, 4].grep({ 9 });
14:10 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«found␤»
14:10 Xliff_zzz m: say "found" if [1, 2, 3, 4].grep({ $* eq 9 });
14:10 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared routine:␤    eq used at line 1␤␤»
14:10 Xliff_zzz m: say "found" if [1, 2, 3, 4].grep({ $* == 9 });
14:10 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Unsupported use of $* variable; in Perl 6 please use ^^ and $$␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3say "found" if [1, 2, 3, 4].grep({ $*7⏏5 == 9 });␤»
14:10 Xliff_zzz m: say "found" if [1, 2, 3, 4].grep({ $_ == 9 });
14:10 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: ( no output )
14:10 Xliff_zzz m: say "found" if [1, 2, 3, 4].grep({ $_ == 2 });
14:10 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«found␤»
14:19 perlpilot Xliff_zzz: That's some trick where you talk to the bot in your sleep  :)
14:19 moritz it's called a bot. Seen it before :-)
14:20 * moritz wonders if bots live in the botanic garden :-)
14:20 * moritz not really productive anymore
14:21 * masak .oO( do bots dream of IRC sheep )
14:22 perlpilot hopefully it's not a ship named Botanic traveling near bergs of some sort
14:23 * masak .oO( unkickbannable )
14:24 acrussell joined #perl6
14:24 Xliff perlpilot: I know right. I have returned with caffeine and am reborn!
14:25 perlpilot Xliff: btw, were you looking for  say "found" if [1, 2, 3, 4].grep(* == 2);  # earlier?
14:25 perlpilot Xliff: I was curious what the $* stuff was about
14:28 FROGGS joined #perl6
14:28 geekosaur coding while at least half asleep? :p
14:29 Xliff Actually, I that was me trying to use grep without quite attaining consciousness.
14:29 masak m: say "found" if any(1, 2, 3, 4) == 2
14:29 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«found␤»
14:29 Xliff geekosaur++
14:29 Xliff masak: Oooh! Even better.
14:30 Xliff geekosaur: Actually more like 3/4 asleep to be honest. :/
14:30 Xliff \o FROGGS
14:30 FROGGS o/
14:30 yoleaux 14 Jun 2016 17:46Z <lizmat> FROGGS: could you explain what ac0dcdd fixes (e.g. in the ChangeLog) ?
14:31 Sgeo joined #perl6
14:32 Xliff FROGGS: Running into a weird GC issue while porting XML::LibXML
14:32 FROGGS .tell lizmat this describes ac0dcdd very well: https://github.com/rakudo/raku​do/blob/nom/docs/ChangeLog#L9
14:32 yoleaux FROGGS: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
14:32 FROGGS Xliff: how so?
14:33 Xliff https://github.com/Xliff/p6​-XML-LibXML/tree/06elements
14:33 Xliff When running what I have ported of t/06elements.t I hit an endless loop when running "$elem.removeAttributeNode( $tattr );"
14:34 Xliff I've tracked it to GC code, but I have no idea why that is happening. I ran into it before, but thought I had fixed it.
14:34 Xliff Now I'm not so sure.
14:35 zakharyas joined #perl6
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14:35 FROGGS gimme a sec
14:36 sortiz FROGGS, BTW I pushed two trivial commits to XML::LibXML. One for a weird CArray creation problem.
14:36 Xliff No worries.
14:37 FROGGS sortiz: ohh nice, that's a workaround for the issue I was talking to jnthn :o)
14:37 Xliff Hmm... how can I pull those into my fork?
14:39 BrokenRobot m: say "found" if 2 ∈ 1, 2, 3, 4
14:39 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«found␤»
14:39 BrokenRobot m: say "found" if 2 ∈ 1, 5, 3, 4
14:39 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«found␤»
14:39 BrokenRobot m: say "found" if 2 ∈ <1 5 3 4>
14:39 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: ( no output )
14:39 BrokenRobot Bug?
14:39 FROGGS Xliff: I think I've read something about being able to do that on the github page
14:40 BrokenRobot m: say "found" if 1, 5, 3, 4 ∋ 2
14:40 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«found␤»
14:40 BrokenRobot m: say "found" if (1, 5, 3, 4) ∋ 2
14:40 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: ( no output )
14:41 vendethiel joined #perl6
14:41 BrokenRobot Ah, never mind. the 4 ∋ 2 becomes an element in a list and list is true
14:41 sortiz FROGGS, dunno if that bug is reported, but with that form works well. :-)
14:41 FROGGS sortiz: dunno either
14:42 Xliff FROGGS: Thanks. I'll search for it.
14:42 FROGGS Xliff: Internal error: zeroed target thread ID in work pass <-- that one?
14:43 BrokenRobot Xliff: checkout your fork, then do git pull --rebase http://URL/of/other/repo
14:43 Xliff Yeah. I've been running into that.
14:43 BrokenRobot Unless they added it in 2016, there's no way to do that on GitHub without deleting the fork and reforking
14:44 sortiz Xliff, Umm, I've seen that sporadically even with panda, never reproducible.
14:47 Xliff BrokenRobot: Actually, this worked -- https://help.github.com/articles/syncing-a-fork/
14:47 Xliff Was able to merge changes directly into my branch.
14:49 BrokenRobot Xliff: isn't that just a more complicated method of what I showed, except it creates a merge commit?
14:49 BrokenRobot huggable: dunno
14:49 huggable BrokenRobot, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
14:49 FROGGS BrokenRobot: seems I misremember... I believed there was a news entry that said that is it possible now on the page directly
14:50 BrokenRobot Was it possibly the ability to squash multiple commits on PR merge? That is recent.
14:50 geekosaur ...on 1 April...
14:50 BrokenRobot m: say so 2 ∈ <2>
14:50 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«False␤»
14:51 Xliff BrokenRobot: Slightly. I wanted a merge commit, not a rebase.
14:51 FROGGS no, I thought it was about pulling in upstream commits...
14:52 BrokenRobot Xliff: cool
14:52 FROGGS I mean, that should be doable when creating a pull request in your clone with switched bases
14:52 FROGGS jnthn: Heap corruption detected: pointer 0x7f364b387020 to past fromspace
14:52 FROGGS jnthn: scared? :D
14:53 stevieb joined #perl6
14:54 shadowpaste "xliff" at 217.168.150.38 pasted "Endless Loop Backtrace" (25 lines) at http://fpaste.scsys.co.uk/523531
14:55 Xliff FROGGS: That backtrace varies depending on how long I let it run, but it never leaves MVM_interp_run()
14:55 FROGGS I dont see that behaviour here... but the vm is in a bogus state so that doesnt not matter much
14:56 timotimo it would be very strange if it'd ever leave MVM_interp_run, except if it exits
14:56 pmurias joined #perl6
14:56 timotimo please rebuild your moarvm with passing --debug=3 to its configure script
14:57 timotimo if you "up" to a MVM_ function, you can "print MVM_dump_backtrace(tc)" and get a perl6-level traceback of where you've stopped the interpreter
14:57 FROGGS now it hangs in:
14:57 FROGGS ==3871==    at 0x4FD9200: MVM_repr_at_key_o (reprconv.c:452)
14:57 FROGGS ==3871==    by 0x4FF69E0: try_get_slot (CStruct.c:298)
14:57 FROGGS ==3871==    by 0x4FF69E0: get_attribute (CStruct.c:387)
14:57 timotimo that ought to help a lot more than the C-level backtrace
15:00 jnthn FROGGS: Yeah, though at least that error means "we spotted something got screwed up" rather than just SEGVing :)
15:00 jnthn FROGGS: There's some GC debug support you can turn on that may catch it earlier
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15:02 FROGGS jnthn: is that an env var or a flag I have to edit in a header file?
15:02 jnthn FROGGS: Flag in a header file
15:02 FROGGS kthx
15:02 jnthn gc/debug.h iirc
15:06 Xliff Weird!
15:06 Xliff FROGGS: Found it... it was a parameter type check that was causing the loop.
15:07 Xliff So replacing "method removeAttributeNode(xmlNode $an!)" with "method removeAttributeNode($an!)" solved the problem.
15:08 buharin joined #perl6
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15:22 BrokenRobot What are types like IntStr, NumStr, RatStr called?
15:23 vendethiel joined #perl6
15:23 jdv79 isomorphs?  or something that ridiculous sounding.
15:23 jdv79 doesn't sound quite right
15:23 BrokenRobot Ah http://docs.perl6.org/language/glossary#Allomorph
15:23 jdv79 ah
15:25 Khisanth joined #perl6
15:26 FROGGS isomorphs is something that Kirk would say :o)
15:35 sufrostico joined #perl6
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16:09 BrokenRobot TIL GitHub lets you specify Issue templates: https://github.com/MadcapJake​/language-perl6fe/issues/new
16:10 dogbert17 joined #perl6
16:10 tadzik neato!
16:14 kurahaupo joined #perl6
16:25 domidumont joined #perl6
16:28 Xliff Ahh... now I need to start learning nqp.
16:30 xinming joined #perl6
16:35 timotimo learn how to nap?
16:35 tadzik powernap is the only thing known to mankind better than powerchords
16:35 timotimo what happens when you nap hugging your guitar?
16:36 labster joined #perl6
16:36 DrForr powernqp.
16:42 gnull m: my @fibo = 0, 1, *+* ... *; say @fibo[^10]
16:42 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«(0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34)␤»
16:42 gnull m: my $fibo = 0, 1, *+* ... *; say $fibo[^10]
16:42 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«Memory allocation failed; could not allocate 1146880 bytes␤»
16:42 gnull wtf?
16:43 ptolemarch joined #perl6
16:43 timotimo it's doing it eagerly
16:43 gnull hello everyone, btw :)
16:43 timotimo so it's maxing out on memory and crashes
16:43 BrokenRobot m: my $fibo = lazy 0, 1, *+* ... *; say $fibo[^10]
16:43 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«(0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34)␤»
16:54 zacts joined #perl6
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17:04 rubio joined #perl6
17:06 rubio I get the following error when I try to start a debug session (perl6-debug-m): "Unhandled exception: ctxlexpad needs an MVMContext". Can someone give me a hint as to what I can do to get this to work?
17:07 rubio I'm trying to debug the C::Parser::Grammar module
17:07 vendethiel joined #perl6
17:10 gregf_ m: sub fibo($n, @arr){!$n ?? @arr !! fibo($n-1, @arr.push(@arr[*-1]+@arr[*-2]));};say fibo(5,[1,1])
17:10 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«[1 1 2 3 5 8 13]␤»
17:10 dalek doc: 01e959b | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | doc/Type/Baggy.pod:
17:10 dalek doc: Added docs for Baggy.grab
17:10 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/01e959b2f6
17:11 DrForr That sounds vaguely obscene :)
17:12 Josh_ joined #perl6
17:12 dogbert17 :)
17:22 cooper joined #perl6
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17:23 dupek joined #perl6
17:24 dupek hey guys, rakudo-star is something like perl6 implementation manager
17:24 dupek i mean moar
17:24 dupek jvm
17:24 dupek etc.
17:25 moritz dupek: rakudo-star is a distribution, which means it ships with a compiler, modules and some docs
17:25 perlpilot if that's a question, the answer is "no"
17:25 perlpilot what moritz++ said
17:25 dupek huh
17:25 dupek what is moan then?
17:25 moritz if you want something that builds rakudo for you, in different versions and different backends, look for rakudobrew
17:25 dupek moar
17:26 moritz moar is a virtual machine
17:26 moritz the recommended backend for rakudo
17:26 dupek ok
17:26 geekosaur there is also a jvm backend, but it's not working quite right currently
17:26 dupek java sucks
17:28 tadzik java is a simple, example language attached to a very good virtual machine
17:28 dupek yayaya
17:29 dupek if Java have no pointers then why there NullPointerException
17:29 dupek ?
17:31 perlpilot huggable: hug dupek
17:31 * huggable hugs dupek
17:32 perlpilot dupek: you looked like a hug might be necessary.  :)
17:32 jnthn Because Java had references, which are waaay better than pointers. But if they screw up...well, we better blame it on pointers. ;P
17:32 BrokenRobot dupek: https://wiki.theory.org/YourLanguageSucks
17:33 dupek jnthn, ya thats good explanation
17:34 geekosaur basically JVM has pointers, Java tries to hide them behind references (which are mostly better behaved) but it fails sometimes leading to JVM-level NPEs
17:35 parabolize Should I close https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/589 ? Should someone else who has reviewed 08c8bb6 ? What is the correct etiquette with fixing issues?
17:35 jnthn fwiw, I wasn't being entirely serious...I can totally imagine it just being somebody not really thinking carefully about the naming :)
17:35 jnthn food &
17:36 dupek geekosaur, stop justify Java
17:36 BrokenRobot parabolize: yeah, close it. The etiquette is you can use "Fixes #444" or "Closes #444" in the commit message and GitHub will auto-close it. The only exception would be very large changes that you'd want people to review in a form of a PR
17:36 geekosaur what makes you think I am justifying anything, aside from your irrational hate?
17:36 dupek geekosaur, I didn't say I hate java
17:36 dupek I just say it sucks
17:37 dupek ;]
17:37 geekosaur you don;t need to say it out loud
17:37 geekosaur your behavior so far is sufficient
17:37 dupek huh, I asked simple question about Java
17:38 dupek and you can't explain me
17:38 tadzik and yet you say "stop justify" when you got the answer. Peculiar
17:38 dupek and then you attack me about hating
17:38 fhorck joined #perl6
17:38 BrokenRobot huggable: hug everybody
17:38 * huggable hugs everybody
17:38 geekosaur so why are you attacking me for "justify java"? especially when that was not what I did?
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17:39 BrokenRobot dupek: did you have more questions about MoarVM?
17:39 dupek no
17:40 BrokenRobot OK.
17:40 nemo say... is there an ubuntu ppa w/ an up to date rakudo for 14.04 LTS ?
17:40 nemo 14.04 probably being the last ubuntu I'll ever use
17:41 * BrokenRobot gave up on it with whatever came out after Edgy
17:41 BrokenRobot Bodhi Linux FTW!
17:42 nemo BrokenRobot: well. I use gentoo on a few machines, but ubuntu is pretty common due to it being one of the two distros supported by the workplace
17:42 nemo and no huge desire to run RHEL
17:43 nemo not sure what I'll do once 14.04 is EOL'd... probably switch to Devuan and cross my fingers every time they push a .deb
17:45 nemo BrokenRobot: looks like Bodhi is basically Ubuntu LTS, so the PPA thing still stands
17:46 nemo BrokenRobot: have you found one?
17:46 nemo BrokenRobot: problem w/ some of the ubuntu derivatives like mint is installing up to date stuff is a real pain for a # of reasons.  not sure if bodhi has improved the process
17:46 BrokenRobot I just rakudobrew
17:47 dupek zed is good?
17:47 dupek zef
17:47 BrokenRobot update-perl6 is aliased to `rm -fr ~/.zef; rm -fr ~/.perl6; rm -fr ~/.rakudobrew/; git clone https://github.com/tadzik/rakudobrew ~/.rakudobrew; rakudobrew build moar; rakudobrew build zef;'
17:47 BrokenRobot dupek: yes
17:47 nemo BrokenRobot: so.. there are some things I'm fine w/ doing my own builds of
17:47 nemo BrokenRobot: perl is not high on the list
17:47 dupek ok
17:47 nemo esp if I'm to use it on a bunch of machines
17:47 BrokenRobot heh
17:49 parabolize why is everyone removing ~/.rakudobrew when the update rakudo? Isn't that self defeating? At the very least it means you update all your perl6 versions at once.
17:49 parabolize when they*
17:50 BrokenRobot parabolize: around Christmas "nuking rakudobrew" was the only way to move forward with new version due to a huge pre-production change.
17:50 BrokenRobot I guess that stuck around :)
17:50 * BrokenRobot isn't even sure what happens if you don't nuke it anymore :D
17:51 nemo I do find the github pattern of "blow away the repo and update"
17:51 nemo pretty funny
17:51 geekosaur it hasn't been necessary since then, though
17:51 nemo I find git terribly unintuitive and convoluted compared to, oh, mercurial, and one of the things that keeps biting me is failure to update to latest (aside from just general command complexity)
17:51 nemo reminds me of the xkcd comic
17:52 * geekosaur blew it away once to get past the breakage, and has been using rakudobrew's update since then without problems
17:53 tadzik the funniest thing about rakudobrew is that people mostly don't care about the multiple-rakudos part, they just use it for "finally, I can update rakudo with a single command"
17:55 spider-mario joined #perl6
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17:56 geekosaur if multiple rakudos were actually useful in practice...
17:56 nemo tadzik: I imagine there aren't many people out there who want multiple versions of their compiler most of the time.  I briefly needed 2 versions of fpc for debugging purposes but ditched that ASAP
17:56 nemo compiler/interpreter
17:56 geekosaur the main reason I'd want that is rakudo-jvm, which is kinda broken currently
17:56 nemo https://xkcd.com/1597/  the aforementioned xkcd
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17:59 stevieb nemo: lol. Took me a fair while to get to the point I didn't need to do that to fix any issues. I used hg before that, and don't remember ever needing to do such
18:00 nemo stevieb: these days when I interact w/ git it is using the hg bridge ☺
18:00 nemo stevieb: unless I'm doing a one-off and maybe an rm -rf 😉
18:01 perlpilot git is totally intuitive ... I don't know what you guys are talking about
18:01 perlpilot ;)
18:01 stevieb perlpilot: oh, I'm not complaining at all. It just took a while to get used to things moving from hg. I'm perfectly content with git, in fact I always have been.
18:02 tadzik it's like with unix – it's quite user-friendly, just selective about who its friends are :)
18:02 nemo https://bitbucket.org/durin42/hg-git
18:02 nemo my fav hg command is hg grep --all   they really need to make all the default IMO
18:03 nemo ok. anyway. enough channel hijack
18:03 nemo I take it there's no PPA then
18:03 perlpilot I tried git, bzr, and hg at the same time around early 2006 and decided git fit my brain a little better (and at the time I think it was faster or less buggy that the others too) and I've not used the others since then
18:03 perlpilot nemo: I don't know of one, but if you find one (or make one), do share
18:04 stevieb I'm pretty sure I was using cvs and svn back then
18:04 nemo stevieb: yeh, I went rcs → cvs → svn → hg
18:04 nemo stevieb: well, we still use svn quite a lot @ work
18:05 perlpilot me too except s/hg/git
18:05 nemo mostly due to, well...
18:05 nemo https://bitquabit.com/post/unorthodocs-​abandon-your-dvcs-and-return-to-sanity/
18:05 perlpilot I don't think I've used svn since 2009 or so
18:05 nemo the mapping from svn to hg is simply a lot better
18:05 nemo also synchronisation between the two
18:05 stevieb me too, except for rcs. We just switched from svn => git this past quarter @ $work
18:05 nemo stevieb: we toyed w/ DVCS a bit, but there was no good reason for it
18:05 nemo stevieb: the tooling for SVN is still quite good, and there was no desire to fragment the repo
18:06 nemo stevieb: but holy crap does git suck at http by default
18:06 mst I ran some fairly big svn repos, and it worked basically fine, but I leaned heavily on svk for merging
18:06 nemo spent way too long on that
18:06 mst then when that broke, git-svn
18:06 mst now every time I try and deal with svn I end up crying because I miss rebase
18:07 stevieb nemo: svn is good, but all of my personal code is in git, and I devel python at $work, so now I can use the same IDE (for perl5 at least w/Camelcade plugin) with the same repository types
18:07 nemo stevieb: I probably spent several days trying to see if we could reasonably do an svn/git sync as well as the svn/hg one, and decided it was way too painful
18:07 mst OTOH right now I'm facedesking really hard because of multiple clones of a repo for $customer and then the master is different again
18:07 stevieb mst: "facedesking" lol, never heard that one before
18:08 nemo mst: svn really is stupid-simple for people to learn.  The very very simplist being, did you know you can literally just "mount" an SVN repo in windows as a remote folder ? (using webdav)
18:08 tadzik you haven't? It makes quite a sound in an office space :P
18:08 mst it comes somewhere between http://trout.me.uk/areyousure.jpg and http://trout.me.uk/bunny.jpg
18:08 stevieb bah... wanted to say I use PyCharm IDE for my python + perl5 (Camelcade now had debugging!)
18:08 nemo mst: they think they are just copying files in and out, updating, deleting, but its just autocommit
18:08 nemo mst: tracking for free on folks who are preeeetty clueless about that in general
18:08 mst nemo: yes, I know what mod_dav_svn is
18:09 nemo mst: well sure. most do, but I had no idea windows had built in support for it
18:09 nemo was news to me
18:09 nemo mst: nor that w/ autocommit on it would all "just work"
18:09 mst it was news to me about ten years ago :D
18:09 nemo mst: ok, about same time for me ☺
18:09 * nemo checks 'sact date
18:09 perlpilot nemo: webdav being neat doesn't make up for poor merging support
18:10 mst svk's merging worked, but they insisted on writing their own anyway
18:10 perlpilot Though ... I understand that merging in svn isn't as painful now as it once was
18:10 mst when I asked the devs they said "well, svk was a separate project"
18:10 mst and, like, well, yes, but it was open source and ALREADY WORKED
18:10 nemo mst: ah. it was news to me 6 years ago ☺
18:10 mst nemo: I *think* about a decade, but obviously my memory gets fuzzy that far back
18:11 nemo mst: I checked revision log on that repo
18:11 mst but I ran svn repositories for a couple hundred cpan dists for a while
18:11 mst so I ended up being really quite good with it
18:11 Xliff Heh! That xkcd... I've been there.
18:11 mst (including being able to rebase using svnadmin and perl -pe ... no, I don't recommend it)
18:12 nemo I'm sure there's a time when I'll have to giv up on https://bitbucket.org/durin42/hg-git , suck it up, and actually learn how to use it properly
18:12 nemo buut, I'm in no rush to do so
18:12 mst honestly, I first learned git because it was clear that lots of cpan modules were going to use it, and I needed to be able to unfuck people's mistakes
18:12 nemo but then, why would I be in #perl6 otherwise.  I mean clearly I should be doing everything in node.js or something
18:12 mst as with vi, once I got past the 'aha' moments I fell in love
18:13 nemo mst: it just feels so clunky to use compared to mercurial
18:13 mst the thing about git is you have to stop trying to use it like anything else and get a feel for how it does things, and then it gets a lot more powerful
18:13 nemo buuut that could be due to decades of svn and cvs and rcs, what can I say
18:13 nemo maybe if I was coming at it fresh I wouldn't feel so
18:14 nemo mst: I also maybe don't spend enough time on VCS to care enough.  That could be it...
18:14 mst I found it really clunky until I stopped fighting it, and figured out workflow that took advantage of git
18:14 nemo also not a big fan of social anything so github had no huge appeal
18:14 mst this was pre-github
18:15 b2gills I think git is easier to figure out after you know more about its internals ( at an abstract level )
18:15 perlpilot nemo: you and I seem to have similar revision control systems background, but I went with git over hg.  So ... I'm going to say it's other factors than git itself.  :)
18:16 mst nemo: anyway, key take-aways: "learning git more will annoy the crap out of you and I don't blame you for delaying doing so", plus "once you do learn more, you may find that it doesn't annoy you nearly so much"
18:17 b2gills I used to regularly do a bunch of changes then do 「git add -e」, and check if I did it right with 「git gui」
18:17 nemo mst: mm. yeah, totally plausible, just, no compelling reason to do so so far, since the mercurial bridge works fine, and I seem to get about same feature set
18:17 nemo mst: but maybe someday!
18:17 nemo and hg *does* map a lot better to svn, so we lose less data on the sync
18:17 b2gills nemo: can it do 「git add -e」?
18:18 b2gills that is edit the diff that will become the commit
18:18 nemo b2gills: hm. that sounds like a really bad way to pick and choose parts of the diff
18:18 nemo I honestly have not ever had the desire to do that
18:18 mst nemo: sure. just saying that, *eventually*, I was pleasantly surprised :)
18:18 perlpilot nemo: It's a nice option when you *need* it.
18:18 mst ah, see, this is the thing about git
18:18 nemo heh. the man page doesn't recommend it even
18:19 mst a bunch of the features are something you'll never have had the desire to do
18:19 nemo had to look it up
18:19 mst but once you've used them, you get upset in their absence
18:19 nemo staged. This can be quicker and more flexible than using the interactive hunk selector. However, it is easy to confuse
18:19 nemo oneself and create a patch that does not apply to the index. See EDITING PATCHES below.
18:19 mst the way git rebase works, for example
18:19 nemo mst: I'm not saying the bridge can't do it, I really have no idea
18:19 mst nemo: I'm not commenting about the bridge at all
18:19 perlpilot b2gills: how often do you conflate changes such that you need "git add -e" ?
18:19 b2gills Sometimes the worst tool in the toolbox is the best tool for the job
18:20 stevieb in the docs, many of the param types in definitions have a ":D" or ":D:" suffix. can someone explain what these mean, or point me to the doc I may have missed that explains them?
18:20 mst nemo: please stop taking my comments as antithesis to yours, my goal is synthesis :)
18:20 perlpilot b2gills: I mean, "git add -p" is useful, but I've only ever needed "git add -e" like one time (maybe)
18:20 nemo mst: I wasn't taking as antithesis, no worries. does git rebase do anything significantly different from histedit?
18:20 nemo mst: not that I've had much reason to do either one
18:21 perlpilot b2gills: Oh, I guess I've occasionally editted the hunk using "git add -p" too, so that's largely the same
18:21 mst histedit appears to not be designed to deal with history with merges
18:22 b2gills perlpilot: It is usually only a few changes that are very closely related, such that they could actually be one commit if I didn't care about the history
18:22 mst nemo: ok, so, basically, all I can really say here is "I don't think you understand rebase, but also I don't think I can explain it to you, it was an 'aha' moment for me after which it became obvious why I loved the feature, but no explanation I read beforehand helped much"
18:23 mst nemo: kinda similar to my first encounter with lexical closures many years ago in that respect, if you see what I mean
18:24 nemo mst: TBH no idea what it is so I guess no idea what I'm missing.  I was asking that merely in the context of: https://www.mercurial-scm.org/wiki/G​itConcepts#Command_equivalence_table
18:24 parabolize stevieb: it requires the parameter to be defined. http://doc.perl6.org/type/Signature#Con​straining_Defined_and_Undefined_Values
18:24 nemo mst: which I've turned to many times when I needed to get something done in git
18:24 mst nemo: right. the thing is, I don't think there is equivalence here, as such
18:24 mst histedit appears to provide rebase -i, which I like occasionally
18:24 mst but what I really care about is 'git rebase master'
18:25 mst aha, so there's a different extension - https://www.mercurial-scm.org/wiki/RebaseExtension
18:25 mst nemo: you stopped reading that table too early :)
18:26 nemo mst: ah. I already have the rebase extension enabled
18:27 nemo mst: I've used it... eh.. once or twice
18:27 nemo not very often
18:27 * nemo shrugs
18:27 mst I use it all the time so I don't end up with pointless merge commits
18:27 nemo mst: I'm generally a fan of that. I've heard of good arguments for merge commits, in terms of avoiding losing that merge info
18:28 nemo mst: although most of time I avoid pointless merge commits by staying in sync ☺
18:28 nemo if there's no reason to do that, due to having done enough on a separate tree, it's probably best to have a merge commit anyway
18:28 nemo in general not a huge fan of rewriting history
18:28 b2gills I like 「git merge --no-ff --ff-only」 it leaves a clean history
18:29 mst yes, that's my preferred approach for significant changes
18:29 nemo mst: oh... wrt that hg grep --all - is there a git equiv? 'cause when I do have a git repo, the most common reason for me to have it, is to search the commits for something
18:29 nemo mst: would be nice to have an easy thing to remember to do that search
18:30 nemo mst: like... hg grep --all SomeWTF.*foo x.c y.c z.c
18:30 dalek ecosystem: 4155c25 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | META.list:
18:30 dalek ecosystem: Add Quantum::Collapse
18:30 dalek ecosystem:
18:30 dalek ecosystem: Collapse allomophic types into their components: https://github.com/zoffixz​net/perl6-Quantum-Collapse
18:30 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/e​cosystem/commit/4155c251f0
18:30 mst I've no idea what said hg invocation does
18:30 nemo mst: searches history for a regex
18:31 b2gills run 「git help grep」
18:31 nemo b2gills: I tried that
18:31 nemo b2gills: couldn't get it to search all history
18:31 nemo so thought I'd ask people familiar w/ it, since the subject came up
18:31 b2gills The thing is they would have to know both systems
18:32 b2gills I have never used it, though it could be faster than the way I normally find what I'm looking for
18:32 nemo b2gills: http://m8y.org/tmp/temp.txt minus the colourising
18:33 mst nemo: git grep search_for $(git rev-list --all) maybe?
18:33 nemo hm
18:33 * nemo tries in a git repo
18:33 nemo mst: search_for being the regex?
18:33 mst yeah
18:33 nemo kk
18:33 * nemo tries on the Starbound repo
18:33 stevieb parabolize: thanks much!!
18:35 nemo mst: O_o
18:35 nemo mst: no. that can't be right
18:35 nemo mst: seems to have returned basically everything
18:35 * nemo tries another string
18:35 nemo mst: and. heh. is still running.
18:35 parabolize nemo: git log -S
18:36 nemo that looks more promising
18:36 * nemo aborts the mst thingy
18:36 nemo hm.
18:36 nemo parabolize: not bad, now I just need it to actually print out the line
18:37 nemo parabolize: I have the revsets now
18:37 nemo maybe dump the diff then grep
18:37 yqt joined #perl6
18:37 nemo parabolize: doesn't support regex unfortunately
18:38 nemo parabolize: but. good enough for quick and dirty purposes. thanks.  anything more involved I'll do my tried 'n' true hg-git 😃
18:39 parabolize maybe the -G flag
18:40 parabolize or -S --pickaxe-regex
18:41 nemo parabolize: swapped those 2 and it worked nicely
18:41 nemo git log --pickaxe-regex -S BOM.*ZWNBSP .
18:41 nemo quick test
18:42 nemo hm... I wonder if the . worked as expected. let's see
18:42 nemo it did. sweet
18:42 nemo I gotta make an alias for that
18:42 nemo just need to add the extraction of the actual change lines
18:43 nemo hm... now how to do that
18:43 nemo huh. that's weird
18:44 parabolize I don't understand what you want.
18:44 nemo parabolize: git diff -c revhash  from the log above should give changes from that changeset right?
18:44 parabolize you want the full diff? you can use the -p flag
18:45 nemo parabolize: when I searched for my test string, it was an unchanged context line O_o  maybe if I add "^[+-].*" to all my searches
18:45 nemo let's try that
18:46 nemo hrm. not getting anything now
18:46 nemo parabolize: I want something like http://m8y.org/tmp/temp.txt - the colourising (not visible there) would be nice but not important
18:47 nemo change history, with line, and whether it was a removal or addition
18:47 nemo and ideally the pattern colourised in the line
18:48 finanalyst joined #perl6
18:48 finanalyst @search ninefox gambit
18:48 mst finanalyst: wat
18:48 finanalyst sorrrrry, wrong irc
18:48 mst finanalyst: http://trout.me.uk/areyousure.jpg
18:49 finanalyst mst: LOL!
18:50 dalek doc: 4f52547 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Language/testing.pod:
18:50 dalek doc: cmp-ok cannot take custom operators as string
18:50 dalek doc:
18:50 dalek doc: Mention &[op] notation.
18:50 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/4f52547b60
18:51 parabolize nemo: git doesn't seem to like it when you join the -S with other flags
18:51 parabolize git log --pickaxe-regex -p -S
18:52 pochi m: sub foo() returns List of Int { return 1,2,3 }
18:52 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤List cannot be parameterized␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3sub foo() returns List of Int7⏏5 { return 1,2,3 }␤»
18:52 pochi is that a permanent thing, or will Lists be able to be parameterized at some point?
18:53 BrokenRobot m: sub foo() returns Array of Int { return [1,2,3] }
18:53 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: ( no output )
18:53 BrokenRobot hm.
18:55 geekosaur I think lists are deliberately unstructured type-wise?
18:55 nemo parabolize: I kinda gave up on it. no worries. isn't super crucial.  I usually have hg installed and can easily convert the clone most of the time
18:56 nemo burnt enough channel history ☺
18:59 acrussell joined #perl6
19:00 girafe joined #perl6
19:02 cdg joined #perl6
19:06 dogbert17 m: my $bf = (eggs => 2, bacon => 3).BagHash; say $bf.grabpairs(1).WHAT; say $bf.grabpairs(*).WHAT; # why (List) and (Array) instead of (List) and (List) ?
19:06 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«(List)␤(Array)␤»
19:07 dogbert17 this feels wrong
19:07 timotimo maybe it should actually be a Seq?
19:08 Emeric joined #perl6
19:08 dogbert17 timotimo: compare with this ...
19:08 dogbert17 m: my $bf = (eggs => 2, bacon => 3).BagHash; say $bf.grabpairs(1).WHAT; say $bf.grabpairs(5).WHAT;
19:08 camelia rakudo-moar c7cd00: OUTPUT«(List)␤(List)␤»
19:08 _mg_ joined #perl6
19:09 begi I've a little question : when should I use "fail," and when should I use "die" ?
19:09 moritz just use die
19:09 dogbert17 moritz: any comments on my examples above ?
19:10 moritz dogbert17: not really
19:10 dogbert17 :(
19:10 moritz dogbert17: but if the type constraint is List, it's OK to return a subclass thereof
19:10 begi moritz: in fact, i don't know what are the advantages to use "fail"... So should I *always* use "die"?
19:11 BrokenRobot begi: fail returns a Failure that can be defused
19:11 stevieb so, I want to count the number of iterations with succ() between "aa" and "be". I know a string is immutable, but I can't find a workaround to do what I want here. Can someone please point out the perl6ish way to accomplish this?
19:11 dogbert17 moritz: I asket because I saw your name in https://design.perl6.org/S3​2/Containers.html#QuantHash  :)
19:11 stevieb "my $x="aa"; my $c=0; while $x ne "be" {$x.succ; $c++; $c.say}"
19:11 Xliff *sigh*
19:11 Xliff Hit another loop.
19:11 moritz begi: IMHO yes. I know some theretical advantages of fail vs. die, but I don't think they make much sense right now
19:12 jjido joined #perl6
19:12 BrokenRobot m: sub foo {  "zomfg!" }; my $x = foo; say (so $x) ?? $x !! "did not work";
19:12 camelia rakudo-moar 2126ed: OUTPUT«zomfg!␤»
19:12 moritz m: say ('aa', *.succ ... 'be').elems
19:12 camelia rakudo-moar 2126ed: OUTPUT«31␤»
19:12 BrokenRobot m: sub foo { fail  "zomfg!" }; my $x = foo; say (so $x) ?? $x !! "did not work";
19:12 camelia rakudo-moar 2126ed: OUTPUT«did not work␤»
19:12 moritz stevieb: ^^
19:12 moritz m: say ('aa' ... 'be').elems
19:12 camelia rakudo-moar 2126ed: OUTPUT«10␤»
19:13 moritz nope, succ doesn't seem to be the default
19:13 BrokenRobot m: say 'aa' ... 'be'
19:13 camelia rakudo-moar 2126ed: OUTPUT«(aa ab ac ad ae ba bb bc bd be)␤»
19:13 BrokenRobot m: say 'aa' .. 'be'
19:13 camelia rakudo-moar 2126ed: OUTPUT«"aa".."be"␤»
19:13 BrokenRobot m: say eager 'aa' .. 'be'
19:13 camelia rakudo-moar 2126ed: OUTPUT«(aa ab ac ad ae ba bb bc bd be)␤»
19:15 stevieb m: say (<aa>, *.succ ... <be>).elems
19:15 camelia rakudo-moar 2126ed: OUTPUT«31␤»
19:15 stevieb moritz: sweet! thanks!
19:16 moritz I still like Euler's algorithm with the series operator
19:16 zakharyas joined #perl6
19:16 moritz m: say (42, 36, &infix:<%> ... 0)[*-2]
19:16 camelia rakudo-moar 2126ed: OUTPUT«6␤»
19:16 Xliff Hmmm.... What happened to "af"?
19:16 Xliff And "b0 - b9"
19:17 AlexDaniel joined #perl6
19:17 Xliff m: say 'aa'.. 'af'
19:17 camelia rakudo-moar 2126ed: OUTPUT«"aa".."af"␤»
19:17 Xliff m: say 'aa' ... 'af'
19:17 camelia rakudo-moar 2126ed: OUTPUT«(aa ab ac ad ae af)␤»
19:17 BrokenRobot Xliff: it goes each letter separately
19:17 moritz m: say list 'aa' .. 'af'
19:17 camelia rakudo-moar 2126ed: OUTPUT«(aa ab ac ad ae af)␤»
19:17 moritz m: say list 'aa' .. 'ef'
19:17 camelia rakudo-moar 2126ed: OUTPUT«(aa ab ac ad ae af ba bb bc bd be bf ca cb cc cd ce cf da db dc dd de df ea eb ec ed ee ef)␤»
19:17 BrokenRobot stevieb: keep in mind you have a potential for infinite loop there, if the start string is less than end string
19:17 Xliff Ahh
19:17 BrokenRobot stevieb: *more than
19:18 moritz or if your end string isn't completely alphabetic, for example
19:18 moritz 'a', *.succ ... '+';
19:18 BrokenRobot Halting Problem basically :)
19:18 moritz m: say ('a', *.succ ... '+')[^100].elems
19:18 camelia rakudo-moar 2126ed: OUTPUT«100␤»
19:19 pmurias joined #perl6
19:19 stevieb BrokenRobot: thanks for that, I'll keep it in mind
19:22 acrussell joined #perl6
19:22 shadowpaste "xliff" at 217.168.150.38 pasted "Endless MVM_dump_backtrace" (4788 lines) at http://fpaste.scsys.co.uk/523566
19:23 Xliff timotimo / FROGGS: ^^ Backtrace from latest endless loop.
19:23 timotimo are you .perl ing a big data structure?
19:24 dalek doc: 5299b4f | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | doc/Type/Baggy.pod:
19:24 dalek doc: Added docs for Baggy.grabpairs
19:24 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/5299b4f675
19:24 FROGGS Xliff: that sounds like you call .perl on a recursive structure
19:27 timotimo yeah, even though we have a "perlseen" thing that's supposed to make loops in recursive structures non-problematic
19:31 timotimo i'm not actually sure perlseen should be recursing, though?
19:32 Xliff FROGGS: It's possible, although I am not expressly calling .perl anywhere.
19:33 Xliff And I do see perlseen getting called several times in that backtrace.
19:33 Xliff The last time this happened was due to a parameter type check. Let me see if I can resolve this one.
19:33 acrussell joined #perl6
19:35 FROGGS Xliff: sorry that I cannot help right now :/
19:37 Xliff No worries. timotimo asked for the backtrace earlier, but I managed to isolate the problem.
19:37 Xliff This makes the 3rd time I've run into something like this.
19:38 timotimo Xliff what worries me is that there's no line in that backtrace that'd come from your code
19:39 timotimo so if you're not calling .perl, and nothing else is calling .perl either ... what's going on?
19:39 mst ninjas.
19:40 Xliff I'm with mst.
19:40 Xliff timotimo: When I isolate this thing, I will let you know.
19:40 timotimo maybe the print is breaking off before it reaches the bottom
19:40 zacts joined #perl6
19:43 huggable joined #perl6
19:44 TEttinger joined #perl6
19:51 Xliff Hrm. There's a recursive call that was working before but isn't for that call.
19:51 Xliff s/call\.$/routine./
20:02 sufrostico joined #perl6
20:07 AlexDaniel BrokenRobot: what about changing your nickname back to Zoffix? :D
20:10 itaipu joined #perl6
20:15 pmurias joined #perl6
20:19 vibha joined #perl6
20:19 BrokenRobot AlexDaniel, what do you mean back? It was never Zoffix. It was sexy-coder-girl that you didn't like :)
20:20 dogbert17 Anyone know how much heap perl6 grabs when starting a script? Does it depend on the amount of free memory?
20:44 johnjohn101 joined #perl6
20:52 tony-o dogbert17: isn't that configurable in the script called 'perl6' ?
20:54 tony-o `cat ~/.rakudobrew/jvm/perl6`
20:58 dogbert17 tony-o: thx, does that mean it's only applicable when running under the jvm?
21:01 jjido joined #perl6
21:02 tony-o i'm not familiar enough with starting just moarvm to know how that works
21:07 Xliff What's the best way to NULL check for NativeCall?
21:08 jjido joined #perl6
21:09 firstdayonthejob joined #perl6
21:14 firstdayonthejob joined #perl6
21:14 setty1 joined #perl6
21:15 jjido joined #perl6
21:16 rindolf joined #perl6
21:18 cpage_ joined #perl6
21:50 timotimo Xliff: just ask for the result's .defined
21:50 timotimo dogbert17: rakudo grabs as much memory as it needs for start-up. and that is currently a bit more than it should be. but we've made noticable improvements in the past, and will continue doing such in the future
21:57 sortiz m: use NativeCall; my $ptr = Pointer.new(0); say so $ptr.defined, so +$ptr; # Xliff, this is the only special case, for all others what timotimo says.
21:57 camelia rakudo-moar 2126ed: OUTPUT«TrueFalse␤»
22:03 grondilu joined #perl6
22:05 kid51 joined #perl6
22:06 Xliff sortiz: So $ptr.defined should be safe for return values from C-libs?
22:08 sortiz Xliff, Yes. And I prefer 'with($foo) { ... }' than 'if $foo.defined {...}'
22:09 Xliff sortiz: Thanks. Your preference has been noted.
22:11 pmurias joined #perl6
22:11 dogbert17 timotimo: thx for the information, so it's nothing that the user can control then like in java?
22:11 Xliff sortiz: Um... is there 'without($foo){ ... }' ?
22:11 sortiz Btw, I've seen that almost all methods in XML::LibXML lacks the invocant declaration 'Foo:D:', in particular 'gist' needs one, to avoid recursion in case of undetected errors when undefined.
22:11 sortiz Yep. There is.
22:11 Xliff kk
22:11 geekosaur java's behavior is a bug imo. it should be dynamic, not eat-as-much-as-you-can-on-start
22:13 timotimo dogbert17: you can up front just initialize a gigantic list of numbers, that'll use up some heap space for you
22:14 dogbert17 timotimo: sure, so the heap can grow dynamically then or does it have a fixed size after program start?
22:15 timotimo no, it grows dynamically
22:15 timotimo there's the nursery, which is 4 megabytes for each thread at the start and 4 extra megabytes after each collection
22:16 timotimo and there's the gen2, which is a bunch of big pages of same-sized objects with a free-list going through them
22:16 dogbert17 I became curious after profiling a small script which spent 10-15% of the running time doing GC
22:17 dogbert17 that is, if I understood the profiler output correctly ...
22:17 timotimo on top of that, many things are malloced, like the storage of dynamic arrays and such, internal stuff, too
22:17 timotimo if it says that it spent 15% time doing GC, then yeah
22:17 timotimo did you look at the GC tab? was there a lot of red? or maybe 100% red, 100% orange, 100% red, 100% orange?
22:18 mr-foobar joined #perl6
22:18 timotimo one thing where the gc behavior is just 100% terrible is when you split a gigantic string into a gigantic amount of pieces
22:19 timotimo because having a nursery and a second gen is based on "things are either going to die early, or live long", but when you do like 50 collections where all you do is allocate strings and put them into the list, you're getting 100% live-long objects
22:19 dogbert17 timotimo: well, I am using comb
22:19 timotimo so what happens is it fills up the nursery's 4 megabytes and runs a collection trying to free up space
22:20 timotimo it frees up exactly 0 space
22:20 timotimo so it runs again, this time moving all things from the nursery into the second gen. then the nursery is empty
22:20 timotimo that process repeats until the split finishes
22:20 timotimo comb on a very long string will have the same behavior, likely
22:20 dogbert17 here's GC no 2:    65KB / 4328KB / 4194007KB ... 17791 gen2 roots
22:21 timotimo i forgot what order the numbers in
22:21 dogbert17 retained/promoted/freed
22:22 timotimo OK
22:22 timotimo that actually looks sensible
22:22 dogbert17 isn't the freed number a bit high though
22:22 timotimo in perl6, a big amount of objects die very young
22:23 timotimo we don't have escape analysis, for example, so a lot of Scalar container objects end up on the heap instead of on the stack. those will usually die extremely fast
22:23 dogbert17 yes but, my math might be wrong, but isn't that 4 gigs
22:24 timotimo oh? wait, that doesn't make sense :D
22:25 timotimo m: say 4194007 / 1024
22:25 camelia rakudo-moar 2126ed: OUTPUT«4095.709961␤»
22:25 dogbert17 compare with GC no 1:   781KB / 0KB / 3315KB ... 12180 gen2 roots
22:26 timotimo okay, must be a bug, then
22:26 dogbert17 could be
22:26 dogbert17 maybe a division with 1024 has been forgotten somewhere
22:27 johnjohn101 perl 6 is looking cool. looking at larry wall's presentation
22:28 timotimo oh, which is that?
22:28 johnjohn101 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwxHXgiLsFE
22:29 timotimo ah, that one!
22:29 timotimo i liked that, yeah :)
22:30 Zoffix joined #perl6
22:30 johnjohn101 larry wall can explain perl better than anyone!
22:30 johnjohn101 amazing the thought put into perl 6 and then the unjustified crap that the community gave to it
22:31 johnjohn101 programming community not perl community
22:31 timotimo oh, ok
22:31 timotimo well, there was trouble in the perl community itself, too
22:31 Zoffix Do we have a good explanation of single arg rule?
22:31 timotimo people saying "perl6 made me the laughing stock of my friends" or "perl6 killed perl5" or whatever
22:32 jjido joined #perl6
22:34 masak timotimo: I think much of that is due to Perl 6 being a bigger risk-taking than most language projects, and so it's easy to laugh instead of learning about it.
22:34 timotimo i really don't trust myself doing any analysis on that situation
22:36 TakinOver joined #perl6
22:36 Zoffix m: my $list = 1,; .say for $list, $list.WHAT
22:36 camelia rakudo-moar 2126ed: OUTPUT«1␤(Int)␤»
22:36 johnjohn101 masak: i got the feeling they expected it done in 8 years and not any longer
22:36 Zoffix m: my $list = (1,); .say for $list, $list.WHAT
22:36 camelia rakudo-moar 2126ed: OUTPUT«(1)␤(List)␤»
22:36 timotimo aööööööööööööööööööö
22:36 Zoffix This kinda doesn't exactly match the claim that lists are created with commas: https://docs.perl6.org/language/list#Literal_Lists
22:37 timotimo .......  cat on the keyboard
22:38 AlexDaniel there's no video from OSCON, right?
22:39 timotimo that was really recently, right?
22:40 AlexDaniel yea
22:40 timotimo haven't seen anything from there yet
22:40 jjido m: my $list = 1,  ; say $list.WHAT
22:40 camelia rakudo-moar 2126ed: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
22:41 jjido ok
22:41 Zoffix jjido, are you marcel?
22:41 jjido Zoffix: !!!!
22:41 ocbtec joined #perl6
22:42 jjido no
22:42 masak timotimo: your cat kind of sounds like a fotball fan.
22:42 jjido I am me
22:42 masak 'night, #perl6
22:42 Zoffix Denis Bredelet.
22:42 Zoffix night
22:44 cdg joined #perl6
22:45 jjido time for zzz
22:47 itaipu joined #perl6
22:48 Zoffix left #perl6
22:49 sufrostico joined #perl6
22:53 sortiz m: (my $f = 1,).WHAT.say; $f.WHAT.say; (my $s = 1).WHAT.say; $s.WHAT.say; # Claim proved, is matter of precedence.
22:53 camelia rakudo-moar 2126ed: OUTPUT«(List)␤(Int)␤(Int)␤(Int)␤»
23:10 AlexDaniel oh noes… don't tell me that we are going to have another womble-like thread
23:11 jameslenz joined #perl6
23:13 skids joined #perl6
23:14 AlexDaniel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx7v815bYUw
23:38 sno joined #perl6
23:41 BooK Cannot iterate object with P6opaque representation # where can I find what this means?
23:43 AlexDaniel BooK: well, generally it means that the error message is LTA
23:43 BooK LTA?
23:43 AlexDaniel Less Than Awesome
23:44 BooK ok :-)
23:49 AlexDaniel BooK: if you manage to reproduce it with a couple of lines then feel free to submit a bug report
23:50 geekosaur or in a bit more detail, it means internals are leaking out where they shouldn't and it should at the very least be giving you a more meaningful error. it could also well indicate a bug in perl6
23:53 BooK I'm writing a subclass of Version
23:54 BooK before 781c6cd8f3ebc8d113b2a058ce00d4d5e1b3f917 my work in progress code "worked" (fsvo worked)
23:54 BooK or at least did not throw that error
23:55 BooK I should compile the relevant rakudo, I guess

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