Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2016-06-26

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:04 mscha m: my @a = 4,5,6; my @b = (1,2,3, |@a); say @b;
00:04 camelia rakudo-moar d4a0e0: OUTPUT«[1 2 3 4 5 6]␤»
00:04 mscha Not very well documented, that is...
00:13 parabolize tbrowder: here is where I think he posted it http://irclog.perlgeek.de/p​erl6/2016-06-23#i_12720216
00:33 dalek doc: b36a6b2 | (Tom Browder)++ | doc/Language/traps.pod:
00:33 dalek doc: add info on space probs with function call format
00:33 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/b36a6b23f4
00:33 dalek doc: 7d6d5c3 | (Tom Browder)++ | doc/Language/traps.pod:
00:33 dalek doc: remove blurb about possible change
00:33 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/7d6d5c3ba8
00:33 dalek doc: 90efa03 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Language/traps.pod:
00:33 dalek doc: Merge pull request #637 from tbrowder/func-trap
00:33 dalek doc:
00:33 dalek doc: add info on space probs with function call format (second attempt)
00:33 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/90efa03ada
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00:41 lizmat is http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6-dev/today dead only for me, or are there more people not getting it ?
00:42 Zoffix dead here too
00:47 jdv79 is that moritz?  mortiz.
00:47 Xliff Dead here, too
00:47 jdv79 ditto.  nicht gut.
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01:47 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
01:47 Zoffix Does NQP offer some sort of dd function that I could use to dump data to see what it is? I'm trying to see what $cur_GLOBALish.WHO returns :/
01:48 TakinOver joined #perl6
01:48 Zoffix (but in general, the "dump this to see what it is" comes up often for me)
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01:55 lizmat Zoffix: I'd like an answer to that one as well  :-)
01:55 Zoffix :)
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03:25 lambd0x :q
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03:28 lizmat success!  :-)
03:35 Zoffix :)
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03:54 llfourn http://irclog.perlgeek.de/ # seems to be down atm
03:54 Zoffix It is. The admin is sleeping ATM.
03:55 llfourn kk
04:02 sammers c
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04:53 ugexe nine: for back compat this is probably the only real way: https://gist.github.com/ugexe/7​2b5e491fddb977f75a650039725872a or else inheritance will be non back compat, in which case it might as well be broken completely to save on all the technical debt shims
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05:07 Xliff can custom trait mods be exported?
05:17 jdv79 can't think of why not at the moment
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05:26 llfourn sub trait_mod:<is>(...) is export {...} # works
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06:22 psch m: module Foo { sub trait_mod:<is>($x, :$fooey) is export { $x but role { method foo { "foo" } } } }; import Foo; class A is Int { } # you probably want a multi though
06:22 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Unexpected named parameter 'export' passed␤at <tmp>:1␤»
06:30 llfourn (err yes you want a multi psch++)
06:35 llfourn m: module Foo { multi trait_mod:<is>(Mu $x, :$fooey) is export { $x.^add_role(role { method foo { "foo" } }) } }; import Foo; class A is fooey { }; say A.foo # This works but "but" doesn't
06:35 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«foo␤»
06:37 llfourn I guess but doesn't modify the original thing right?
06:37 llfourn m: say Int but Bag
06:37 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«Cannot mix in non-composable type Bag into object of type Int␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
06:38 llfourn m: say Int but Baggy
06:38 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«(Int+{Baggy})␤»
06:38 llfourn m: my $a = Int; say $a but Baggy; say $a
06:38 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«(Int+{Baggy})␤(Int)␤»
06:38 llfourn and I don't think return value from trait_mod:<is> is used
06:41 psch right, you'd have to either make $x sigilless or 'is rw', but then you get composition order problems or something it looks like
06:41 psch m: multi sub trait_mod:<is>(Mu $x is rw, :$fooey) { $x but role { method foo { "foo" } } }; class A is fooey { };
06:41 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤'A' cannot inherit from 'fooey' because it is unknown.␤at <tmp>:1␤»
06:41 psch m: multi sub trait_mod:<is>($x is rw, :$fooey) { $x but role { method foo { "foo" } } }; class A is fooey { };
06:41 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤'A' cannot inherit from 'fooey' because it is unknown.␤at <tmp>:1␤»
06:41 psch m: multi sub trait_mod:<is>(Mu:U $x is rw, :$fooey) { $x but role { method foo { "foo" } } }; class A is fooey { };
06:41 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤'A' cannot inherit from 'fooey' because it is unknown.␤at <tmp>:1␤»
06:41 psch ah, no, just dispatch in &trait_mod:<is>
06:41 llfourn I think you can't "but" things before they are composed?
06:42 llfourn m: class Foo { BEGIN say Foo but Int }
06:42 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤An exception occurred while evaluating a BEGIN␤at <tmp>:1␤Exception details:␤  X::Mixin::NotComposable exception produced no message␤    in code  at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
06:42 psch m: class A { method new { self but role { method m { "foo" } } } };
06:42 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: ( no output )
06:42 psch i don't think we're done composing during .new..?
06:42 llfourn yeah we are?
06:42 psch alright then :)
06:43 llfourn the type is composed is what I mean
06:43 psch right
06:43 llfourn not any specific object
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06:49 psch yeah, that makes sense
06:50 psch m: multi sub trait_mod:<is>(Mu \x, :$fooey) { x but role { method foo { "foo" } } }; class A is fooey { };
06:50 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤'A+{<anon|73771392>}' cannot inherit from 'A' because 'A' isn't composed yet (maybe it is stubbed)␤at <tmp>:1␤»
06:50 psch i like this failure mode :)
06:50 psch it's perfectly sensible too, we're still building the type object for A when A has to be A+{<anon>}
06:51 llfourn yep, rakudo++
06:54 psch i think it's a bit sad that we can only had new trait_mod keywords via a Slang
06:54 psch but well, it does seems somewhat reasonable from a "know what language you're in" perspective
06:54 psch s/somewhat//
06:55 psch that's also part of why the fooey trait above doesn't work i guess
06:55 psch 'cause <is> always looks for a typename
06:56 llfourn maybe someday
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06:56 llfourn we already have custom type declarators with EXPORTHOW
06:56 psch right, but that is effectively a Slang
06:57 psch 'cause you're messing with %*LANG, if in a user-unfriendly way
06:57 llfourn but so are custom infixes etc? that's just how we change the parser in rakudo.
06:58 psch yeah
06:58 psch that's also why NC had horribly large moarvm bytecode files
06:58 psch because it declares the HAS declarator
06:58 psch which is why it was moved to Perl6::Grammar
06:59 llfourn ah I didn't notice that change.
06:59 psch that's something of a medium-effort-high-reward thing, too
06:59 psch figuring out a way to subclass the language braid without having to clone it completely
06:59 psch well, i'd think it's medium effort, but it might be somewhat high vOv
07:00 llfourn when you write a slang you have to "clone" the language braid?
07:00 psch well, you subclass it
07:00 llfourn so shouldn't that be efficient?
07:00 psch which is clone + add stuff, from a memory perspective
07:01 psch (still highlevel-ish "memory perspective" :P )
07:01 llfourn oh ok. So when you serialize it you serialize the whole thing?
07:01 psch yeah, that's what seemed to have happened with NC at least
07:01 llfourn I see.
07:02 psch i mean, there were something like 50mb precomp files for a module with around 10k loc or so..?
07:02 llfourn o.o
07:02 psch don't recall the exact details, it was maybe two weeks ago
07:04 psch ac0dcddb11e4 is the commit in question
07:04 psch that day and the day before in the clog has the discussion
07:04 psch i.e. Jun 14
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07:09 dupek hey which web perl framework best to use?
07:13 brrt dupek: for perl6?
07:13 brrt for perl5, ymmv, i like mojolicious a lot
07:13 brrt for perl6 there are several projects in some stage of development
07:13 dupek brrt, when I look at mojolicious it took third place
07:13 brrt and i couldn't tell you
07:14 brrt ok, well, i guess we like different things :-)
07:14 dupek brrt, not I just think
07:14 brrt what would you prefer above mojolicious?
07:15 brrt just out of curiosity
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07:35 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
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07:52 Woodi m: my @a = <a b c>; say @a.perl; dd @a
07:52 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«["a", "b", "c"]␤Array @a = ["a", "b", "c"]␤»
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08:46 BooK I'm starting a new project in Perl6, and I plan to write some Perl5 modules if needed (e.g. DBIC modules) if the stuff I want is not available in Perl6 yet
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08:46 BooK so I have two questions:
08:47 BooK 1. is that sane and is Inline::Perl5 up to it?
08:47 BooK 2. how do I name my lib directories? (I was thinking lib and lib5, since it's supposed to be mainly perl6)
08:49 moritz BooK: yes, and sounds sensible
08:52 dogbert17 good morning #perl6
08:54 dogbert17 moritz: regarding my certificate problems yesterday, turns out my antivirus was to blame
08:57 moritz dogbert17: those things are the devil's doing
08:58 dogbert17 indeed, I have now turned off something ESET calls 'SSL/TLS Protocol Filtering'
08:58 dogbert17 and docs.perl6.org comes up without any problems
09:03 hankache what's an anti-virus?
09:04 hankache ;)
09:04 moritz hankache: a virus made from anti matter
09:05 hankache hehe
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09:06 hankache any recommendations for a vps? What do you know/think of linode?
09:08 moritz linode has a terrible security track record
09:09 moritz I use OVH, and they are OK
09:09 moritz hosteurope also has a good-ish reputation in the low-cost sector
09:11 moritz also digitial ocean
09:11 hankache moritz i'll look at them now
09:11 hankache moritz thanks
09:11 moritz hankache: if you go with digital ocean or linode, there are a few promo codes that get you one month for free
09:15 hankache moritz which OVH vps are you using (SSD/Cloud RAM/Cloud)?
09:16 hankache one of them is RAM supercharged
09:18 moritz hankache: uhm, dunno, I think I have 2GB RM
09:20 moritz VPS 2016 SSD 1
09:20 moritz seems to be the product
09:21 brrt joined #perl6
09:21 moritz I use it to host sudokugarden.de, which gets about 45k visitors a month
09:21 moritz (and it mostly idles)
09:22 hankache aha
09:29 hankache moritz i want to play a bit with perl 6 and bailador do you think 1 GB RAM is enough?
09:29 hankache or should I go for 2?
09:31 moritz hankache: you should go with 2
09:31 moritz simply for compiling rakudo
09:32 hankache moritz indeed
09:36 hankache is one core enough?
09:39 hahainternet you don't run out of cores in the same way as ram :)
09:41 hankache yup
09:42 hankache the question is would rakudo compile on a single core?
09:42 hankache or will it take forever
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09:51 hahainternet hankache: i compiled rakudo on a dual core 2.8ghz machine with 8gb ram
09:51 hahainternet it didn't take very long at all iirc
09:51 psch i don't think the number of cores really matters
09:51 psch there's very few bits in the rakudo build process that can be paralized
09:51 psch err
09:51 psch parallelized?
09:52 hankache hahaha
09:52 hankache indeed
09:53 hahainternet looks like it was 8 min 30s for me
09:53 hahainternet on this crap old machine
09:53 hahainternet so 1 core on a newer machine would probably be faster
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09:56 hankache thank you
09:56 hahainternet you're welcome
09:59 grondilu "there's very few bits in the rakudo build process that can be
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09:59 grondilu paralized"  I find it surprising
10:01 hahainternet so i've been thinking about perl, perl6 and 'compile time decisions' and it strikes me that a rich, complex object system is also shooting yourself in the foot in some areas
10:01 psch grondilu: why?  we're concatenating all of src/ into three or so files that depend on compilation in a specific order
10:01 hahainternet like how type subsets for the most part have to be decided at runtime
10:01 hahainternet does anyone have any resources on heavily restricted languages where most if not all expressions can be decided at compile time?
10:02 psch C++?
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10:02 hahainternet C++ is the opposite of a restricted language, the template system is turing complete on its own
10:02 grondilu psch: I was thinking of the many files in src/core and I had hard time imagining that they need to be compiled in sequence.
10:02 psch oh, yeah, i must've overlooked that
10:02 hahainternet psch: i mean something where you could do NonEmptyWhatever where { .something > 0 }
10:02 hahainternet in perl6, that .something call has to be looked up at runtime afaik
10:03 hahainternet and the fact that the halting problem precludes some 'optimisation'
10:03 psch hahainternet: right, because we cannot decide method dispatch at compile time
10:03 tadzik hahainternet: well, it is compile-tiem though :)
10:03 hahainternet well i'm not criticising perl6
10:03 hahainternet or trying to make any claims about it
10:04 hahainternet just looking for an alternative option to read about and understand
10:04 hahainternet i guess f# or haskell or ocaml prly the way as usual
10:04 psch grondilu: well, as mentioned, all of src/core/ is compiled as CORE.setting.  and it *is* necessary, because e.g. Int.pm needs to be compiled after (and in the same scope as) e.g. Any.pm
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10:13 AlexDaniel think about it positively! If rakudo build is not parallelized, then you can run as many rakudo builds as you have cores!
10:13 AlexDaniel not that it makes any sense :D
10:13 AlexDaniel but e.g. bisectable is building 7 at once
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10:39 tbrowder 'mornin #perl6. can anyone explain briefly what a p6 dynamic variable is? I know there is a list of them that essentially are language globals, but what about user-defined ones.  Are they the same except that they exist for the life of the program defining them?
10:40 * psch thinks the doc page is pretty good and brief
10:41 psch https://doc.perl6.org/routine/is%20dynamic
10:41 psch and yes, the * twigil and the 'dynamic' trait do the same, to the best of my knowledge
10:42 psch https://doc.perl6.org/syntax/*#l​anguage_documentation_Variables
10:42 psch that's a bit more extensive i suppose
10:46 tbrowder psch: the second ref gives me something to work with--thanks; I found the first with the search but the second doesn't show up in a search and it's new to me.
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10:46 psch tbrowder: well, i found it searching for * and knowing what to look for, so i agree it's a bit hidden
10:47 tbrowder right, I searched on dynamic
10:47 psch (for reference, i clicked the 'Syntax' entry in the drop down)
10:47 tbrowder roger
10:53 tbrowder okay, now that I've looked at the syntax explanation, I don't understand, in a single script, why one would use a dynamic var declared and defined in an inner scope instead of using a file-scoped my var along with other such vars. the specific example is $*DR in htmlify.p6.  Since the first time I saw that I wonder what magic is accomplished.
10:56 psch m: sub f { $*foo.say }; sub g { my $*foo = "bar"; f }; sub h { my $*foo = "baz"; f }; g; h;
10:56 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«bar␤baz␤»
10:56 psch i mean, yeah, functionally it's not much different from a file-scoped lexical
10:56 psch but then, functionally, ASM isn't that much different either, if you look close enough
10:57 psch i find, especially in grammar/action code it's clearer to have a dynamic to follow
10:57 tbrowder okay, that's what I thought--thanks!
10:57 psch because you know you can trace upwards through the tokens/methods along your parsetree, and don't have to worry about out-of-band stuff
10:57 psch s/you know/i know/ # :)
10:57 tbrowder oops, "ASM"?
10:58 psch assembler
10:58 tbrowder ah...
10:58 psch i recognize that's not much a valid argument, hence why i followed up with a specific preference :)
10:58 psch +of
10:59 tbrowder great, thanks!
11:00 tbrowder it does look like a personal pref of the original author (or perhaps a last-minute def as he or she realized the var was needed or to emphasize its importance and use in multiple places)
11:00 psch well, there's also the old "global shared state is bad" vOv
11:01 tbrowder I agree for sure, but htmlify.p6 I don't think was originally meant as an exercise in "best practices"...
11:03 moritz it was meant as "get *anything* displayed on the web"
11:09 moritz (another priority was to display methods inherited from superclasses and roles on the same page, because I always hated the parent-class-chasing that you have to do for p5's LibXML modules, for example)
11:13 tbrowder moritz: I wasn't criticizing, in fact you say as much near the top of the prog, but I had to look hard to find some stuff because it looks like you used the power of p6 (esp. chained method calls) to minimize code--hard for a newbie to deal with!
11:13 tbrowder i should say "full power"...
11:16 moritz tbrowder: I didn't take it as criticism
11:16 moritz I know myself how hard it is to change and maintain htmlify
11:18 * Woodi just discovered his perl6-testing host have 2 cores :) Pentium4++ ;)
11:19 Woodi ...and 2Gb memory newer was limiting factor
11:20 Woodi btw. is AMD solding any DDR4 CPUs ?
11:23 dupek hey, what does it mean no dereferencing is needed?
11:25 moritz m: my $a = [ 1, 2, 3 ]; say $a[0]; # for dupek
11:25 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«1␤»
11:25 moritz no special ->[0] magic as with p5
11:25 Xliff How would I specify unicode chars in a regex?
11:26 Xliff Can I use codes?
11:26 Xliff say "\u00E0"
11:26 Xliff m: say "\u00E0"
11:26 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Unrecognized backslash sequence: '\u'␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3say "\7⏏5u00E0"␤    expecting any of:␤        argument list␤        double quotes␤        term␤»
11:27 psch m: say "\c[SNOWMAN]" ~~ /\x2603/
11:27 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«「☃」␤»
11:27 psch m: say "\c[SNOWMAN]" ~~ /\c[SNOWMAN]/
11:27 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«「☃」␤»
11:27 Xliff psch++
11:27 psch m: say "\c[SNOWMAN]" ~~ /☃/
11:27 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter ☃ (must be quoted to match literally)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3say "\c[SNOWMAN]" ~~ /7⏏5☃/␤    expecting any of:␤        term␤»
11:27 psch m: say "\c[SNOWMAN]" ~~ /'☃'/
11:27 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«「☃」␤»
11:28 dogbert17 the code example at https://docs.perl6.org/language/mop#Metamethods  doesn't work, anyone know what's wrong with it?
11:29 AlexDaniel m: say Int.WHY
11:29 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
11:31 AlexDaniel bisect: class MY-CLASSES-ARE-ALL-CAPS { method WHY { "I DONT KNOW" } }; my $c = MY-CLASSES-ARE-ALL-CAPS.new; say $c.WHY; say $c."WHY"()
11:31 bisectable AlexDaniel: on both starting points the exit code is 0 and the output is identical as well
11:31 AlexDaniel ah forgot something…
11:31 psch m: #| THIS IS A CLASS FOR SHOUTING THINGS␤ class MY-CLASSES-ARE-ALL-CAPS { method WHY { "I DON'T KNOW" } } my $c = MY-CLASSES-ARE-ALL-CAPS.new; say $c.WHY say $c."WHY"() # /o\
11:31 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Method '_add_leading' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤at <tmp>:2␤»
11:31 psch i don't even get why it wants to add to a Str
11:31 psch but then i've never looked at that code
11:33 psch bisect: #| THIS IS A CLASS FOR SHOUTING THINGS␤ class MY-CLASSES-ARE-ALL-CAPS { method WHY { "I DON'T KNOW" } } my $c = MY-CLASSES-ARE-ALL-CAPS.new; say $c.WHY say $c."WHY"() # /o\
11:33 bisectable psch: on both starting points the exit code is 0 and the output is identical as well
11:33 moritz dogbert17: what exactly doesn't work?
11:33 geekosaur at a guess, the part that allows a user provided WHY is NYI, so it's trying to add the #| text to the user provided WHY
11:33 dogbert17 moritz: it complains with Method '_add_leading' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤at
11:33 geekosaur moritz, see camelia output
11:34 AlexDaniel psch: I don't think that ␤ is going to work :/
11:34 psch AlexDaniel: oh, bisectable doesn't do that?
11:34 AlexDaniel yeah :/
11:34 psch :/
11:34 AlexDaniel well, let me fix that…
11:35 psch AlexDaniel++
11:35 dogbert17 AlexDaniel++
11:36 gfldex nine: is precomp supposed to be thread safe? (silly question alert)
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11:40 bisectable joined #perl6
11:40 AlexDaniel bisect: #| THIS IS A CLASS FOR SHOUTING THINGS␤ class MY-CLASSES-ARE-ALL-CAPS { method WHY { "I DON'T KNOW" } } my $c = MY-CLASSES-ARE-ALL-CAPS.new; say $c.WHY say $c."WHY"() # /o\
11:40 bisectable AlexDaniel: on both starting points the exit code is 1 and the output is identical as well
11:40 AlexDaniel ␤ works now
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11:45 Xliff Hrm....
11:46 dalek bisectbot: 183b6d2 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | bot.pl:
11:46 dalek bisectbot: Replace ␤ with newlines
11:46 dalek bisectbot: review: https://github.com/perl6/b​isectbot/commit/183b6d29c0
11:46 Xliff I just refreshed rakudo and this line used to work "nativecast(::('XML::LibXML::Element'), $node);" but now gives me "Internal error: unhandled target type"
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12:07 nine gfldex: module loading in general is probably not yet thread safe
12:10 gfldex nine: i could make you a tarball that segfaults quite nicely on my end if you want to dig your teeth into it
12:10 gfldex loading is fine actually, it only segfaults when the cache is filled
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12:15 Harmil Morning all... quick question. https://hub.docker.com/r/mj41/perl6-star/ looks like the most current docker image of rakudo. Is that the right one to be using?
12:16 llfourn Harmil: it looks a tad old
12:17 Harmil Is there a more recent star release than 2 months?
12:17 AlexDaniel just a little bit
12:17 llfourn Is it the same as: https://github.com/perl6/docker
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12:18 llfourn this looks liek the official one: https://hub.docker.com/_/rakudo-star/
12:19 llfourn but it looks old too
12:19 llfourn shouldn't it be auto-building on commits to rakudo?
12:19 Harmil Star != rakudo
12:20 llfourn right. sorry.
12:20 Harmil Though, to be fair, I don't actually need star, it's more a matter of wanting a stable reference.
12:21 llfourn but you want a docker image right?
12:21 llfourn i'd say the official one maintained by hoelzro is the best
12:22 llfourn but I guess that one you linked is ok "2016.04" is apparently the latest rakudo star
12:23 Harmil Cool, thanks
12:23 stmuk there will probably be a star 2016.07
12:23 stmuk after next month's rakudo release
12:24 psch star-m: say $*PERL.compiler
12:24 camelia star-m 2016.04: OUTPUT«rakudo (2016.04)␤»
12:24 llfourn m: $*PERL.compiler.say
12:24 camelia rakudo-moar a556a8: OUTPUT«rakudo (2016.06.46.ga.556.a.86)␤»
12:56 lizmat Xliff: could you check whether a556a869ea9a56dc233 is to blame ?
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13:03 Xliff lizmat: One sec
13:07 lizmat Xliff: it probably is, and I pushed just a fix for it (I think)
13:08 lizmat if it isn't, someone else should probably revert a556a869ea9a56dc233 and e071e40b37d446c9
13:08 lizmat as I'll be afk&
13:11 Xliff I'm checking 6d824ecc8cd8f4671c4f83728f67099d2c7bba11 right now
13:13 timotimo hey
13:16 timotimo does anybody know if there's a way to not have processes crashing with segfaults show up in dmesg and such?
13:17 timotimo because running afl-fuzz on hack gives me beautiful lines in the dmesg including ones like "show_signal_msg: 381 callbacks suppressed"
13:18 Xliff lizmat: Problem still exists.
13:21 * Xliff read "dmesg" and thought "syslog"
13:21 Xliff My bad.
13:22 timotimo well, there's also a bajillion segfault messages in the journal
13:22 Xliff lizmat: Recompiling to e071e40b37d446c9
13:28 Xliff lizmat: Problem still exists on latest commit. I will have to git-bisect this and see. I should return to the last known working version and see if the problem really is perl6.
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13:32 timotimo https://unix.stackexchange.com/questio​ns/243828/is-there-a-way-to-temporaril​y-disable-segfault-messages-in-dmesg  -  i implemented this on hack right now
13:37 timotimo we still have about 2.7 gigabytes of space taken on our / partition that's nothing but logs about segfaults
13:38 Xliff Felgercarb!
13:38 Xliff Looks like the problem is my code and not perl6.
13:38 timotimo the what now?
13:38 timotimo that's a relief
13:38 Xliff Yes and no.
13:38 Xliff Relief for you... nightmare for me.
13:38 psch imagine how you'd feel if it was both /o\
13:38 Xliff /o\ indeed!
13:39 psch #just-coredev-things
13:39 psch scnr
13:39 timotimo :D
13:39 Xliff Weird thing is this part of the code didn't change.
13:39 Xliff Now I will have to revert my code and see if I can make problem go away.
13:39 Xliff However, first thing is food. Next thing is sleep.
13:39 Xliff o7
13:40 timotimo have a good two :)
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14:05 llfourn so I noticed there was some segfault discussion. I'm now getting non-deterministic segfaults after rebuilding an hour or so ago.
14:05 llfourn not sure if it was rebuilding or me adding something to my code though.
14:06 gfldex llfourn: are you running more then 1 thread?
14:06 llfourn nope.
14:06 gfldex my problems go away when just one thread
14:06 gfldex do you got that code online?
14:07 llfourn no :\
14:07 llfourn I guess I could, I'll investigate a bit further first.
14:08 gfldex <-- code voyeur :->
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14:37 llfourn gfldex: backtrace: https://gist.github.com/LLFourn/135​680d93ef10b76b0213386b49fa20e/01fb6​c69c0d7a5d55cf760c2e0f5a45f3073b258
14:37 llfourn trying to build with debug symbols to get more info
14:38 llfourn further discussion in #perl6-dev if you're interested :)
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14:53 ugexe m: { class Foo { }; }; class Foo { }; # is this intended? (i realize I can `my class ...` it)
14:53 camelia rakudo-moar e071e4: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Redeclaration of symbol Foo␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3{ class Foo { }; }; class Foo7⏏5 { }; # is this intended? (i realize I c␤    expecting any of:␤        generic role␤»
14:56 dalek doc: 8616126 | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | doc/Language/variables.pod:
14:56 dalek doc: Added a couple of missing semicolons in code example
14:56 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/8616126990
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15:03 gfldex ugexe: S12 provides the following wisdom: Without a my or other scoping declarator, a bare class declarator declares an our declarator, that is, a name within the current package.
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15:08 ugexe ah. but what am I missing that `sub Bar { class Foo { }; }; class Foo { };` still fails? or that `sub Bar { our $xxx; }; Bar(); say $xxx` gives a symbol $xxx is undeclared (yes, OUR::<$xxx>, but still)
15:09 timotimo variables aren't looked up in package scope unless you ask for it ... or something like that?
15:09 timotimo i basically never use package-scoped variables, tbh
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15:11 ugexe m: sub Bar { class Foo { }; }; class Foo { }; # sub { } is a scoping declarator isn't it?
15:11 camelia rakudo-moar e071e4: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Redeclaration of symbol Foo␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3sub Bar { class Foo { }; }; class Foo7⏏5 { }; # sub { } is a scoping declarator ␤    expecting any of:␤        generic role␤»
15:11 ugexe oh it means on the class declaration, not inside one
15:13 timotimo classes aren't "my" by default
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15:16 Zoffix m: { our $foo = 42 }; our $foo = 32; say $foo
15:16 camelia rakudo-moar e071e4: OUTPUT«32␤»
15:17 Zoffix m: { our $foo = 42 }; our $foo; say $foo
15:17 camelia rakudo-moar e071e4: OUTPUT«42␤»
15:17 Zoffix .oO( should probably warn, eh? )
15:17 ugexe right, but `{ my sub Bar { class Foo { }; }; }; class Foo { };` seems a bit strange in that regard
15:19 jnthn It's a weird thing to write, but the error is correct.
15:19 jnthn Needs to be `my class Foo ...` to lexically scope the symbol
15:20 jnthn (Noting also that classes are a compile-time construct, so closure semantics don't come into it.)
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15:25 ugexe m: role Foo { }; class Bar is Foo { }; say Bar.new.^roles # does a role inherited instead of composed get punned first?
15:25 camelia rakudo-moar e071e4: OUTPUT«((Foo))␤»
15:32 ugexe looks like it composes the role into a new class which gets inherited, hence the role still showing up
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15:50 buharin__ perl is full of magic ;s
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15:52 DrForr_ Yep. And sometimes it even works :)
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16:08 nine ugexe: I'm not sure it's worth worrying about subclasses of Distribution. Can't imagine anyone writing one.
16:11 mst nine: whichprobably means I'll do it one day, but I haven't yet so
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16:19 nine mst: but when you do it will be the new role Distribution, not the quite useless class we're replacing ;)
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17:15 Zoffix m: say GLOBAL::.WHAT; say GLOBAL:: === Stash
17:15 camelia rakudo-moar e071e4: OUTPUT«(Stash)␤False␤»
17:16 Zoffix How come it's False?
17:16 Zoffix Oh, nm
17:18 hankache m: say GLOBAL::.WHAT; say GLOBAL:: ~~ Stash
17:18 camelia rakudo-moar e071e4: OUTPUT«(Stash)␤True␤»
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17:23 psch m: say GLOBAL::.WHAT; say GLOBAL::.WHAT === Stash
17:23 camelia rakudo-moar e071e4: OUTPUT«(Stash)␤True␤»
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17:31 kalkin-_ Ǐs there a real life example of some Perl 6 library, which is thoroughly documented via POD?
17:32 kalkin-_ I would also see how the different semantic block are used in real life
17:36 Zoffix kalkin-, S26 speculation uses P6 pod: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/per​l6/specs/master/S26-documentation.pod
17:36 Zoffix I don't think 100% of that stuff is supported tho
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17:46 kalkin- Zoffix: I know about S26 and i'm reading it, but I want to see it actually used in a software project
17:47 jdv79 Zoffix: nice blog on the hijacking
17:47 Zoffix Thanks.
17:47 jdv79 i wonder if there will eventually be tools/techniques for eco system trust to mitigate that sort of stuff
17:50 kalkin- lol, I just wondered, why I am i reading S26 in source code? I can just download it and run p6doc on it.
17:50 kalkin- nop it doesn't work :)
17:54 Zoffix kalkin-, based on a naive grep, these files should have some amount of POD in them: https://gist.github.com/zoffixznet​/57b5b7ec035107e43373d219bae73fcb
17:54 kalkin- Zoffix thanks!
17:56 kalkin- Hmm now do i use =TITLE or =NAME? App::Mi6 auto generates =head1 NAME i think, but what is the semantic difference between a title and a name? Would title be used if you are writing a book/essay in POD?
17:57 * kalkin- just saw that Terminal::Print uses title instead of name
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18:17 pmurias hahainternet: re restricted language, the fact that templates are turning complete doesn't reduce the amount of type stuff that can be determined at compile time
18:17 pmurias hahainternet: in fact it increases it
18:19 hahainternet pmurias: true that's an orthogonal issue, but i hope i made myself clear, i'm still learning anyhow
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18:43 ugexe nine: Zef subclasses Distribution
18:47 ugexe But again, i'm all for breaking it instead of adding work arounds in rakudo
18:47 ssotka joined #perl6
18:48 ugexe you just cant say that enough code uses Distribution.new to warrant a shim but not enough subclasses it to warrant such
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19:07 dalek doc: 0e6c0cd | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | doc/Type/Pair.pod:
19:07 dalek doc: Added docs for Pair.Str
19:07 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/0e6c0cd8e8
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19:35 dalek doc: d9c25c6 | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | doc/Type/Map.pod:
19:35 dalek doc: Fixed two typos
19:35 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/d9c25c6006
19:35 dalek doc: eb698aa | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | doc/Type/Pair.pod:
19:35 dalek doc: Added docs for Pair.pairs
19:35 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/eb698aa359
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19:56 dalek doc: 8ab2db7 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Num.pod:
19:56 dalek doc: tell why NaN values are produced
19:56 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/8ab2db7722
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20:01 dalek doc: df8a150 | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | doc/Type/Pair.pod:
20:01 dalek doc: Revert "Added docs for Pair.pairs". Method was already documented.
20:01 dalek doc:
20:01 dalek doc: This reverts commit eb698aa3593979838f7b7e9c84f81508b07f5983.
20:01 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/df8a150b2e
20:02 dogbert17 sigh
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20:34 zacts How much does the Perl6 language rely on Rakudo? Like would it be theoretically possible to implement it on another interpreter?
20:34 zacts or at this point does it rely on rakudo specific features?
20:35 zacts (like a hypothetical jvm based Perl6 for example)
20:35 zacts (just curious as to how Perl6 is all put together)
20:35 zacts (NOT that I like JVM)
20:35 kalkin- zacts: afaik you can run perl6 on jvm already
20:35 kalkin- you can use moarvm or jvm
20:35 zacts ah nice! :-)
20:35 zacts oh cool
20:36 zacts that sounds cool
20:37 raiph joined #perl6
20:37 geekosaur well, in theory you can. the jvm backend is a bit broken currently. historically there were two non-rakudo implementations, but both are bitrotted now (niecza in c# / clr, pugs in haskell)
20:38 geekosaur there's a javascript backend in development, I gather
20:38 kalkin- I ended up reading jnthn's Audio-Hydrogen. It has some nice examples how to use POD to document just a simple class
20:38 kalkin- This is pretty helpful
20:46 kalkin- Also should i use use v6 or use v6.c?
20:47 kalkin- I mean I understand that 6 will also match 6.c and 6.d and so on.. But why do people specify in a—for me normal looking perl6—file 6c?
20:48 gfldex there may be some deprications with v6.d (relative to v6.c)
20:48 mst kalkin-: because that allows 6.d to change things if it needs to without breaking their code.
20:49 kalkin- mst: no i get that, but we don't even know if 6.d will break anything, do we? Are there already plans?
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20:49 zacts geekosaur: oh nice
20:49 mst kalkin-: I, personally, would use 6.c and then after 6.d comes out, edit the line and re-run my tests
20:49 zacts A Javascript backend sounds nice
20:49 kalkin- or is it just being careful? May be it's the better way to specify 6.c?
20:50 kalkin- AFAIK if i have a file using 6c but have 6d perl6 implementation, it still will run, but in 6c mode, so most of the authors will have no pressure migrating
20:50 kalkin- or even changing this line
20:51 kalkin- but may be this is ok
20:52 gfldex we do have some changes in v6 that are not part of v6.c (like the .cow lizmat++ added 2 days ago). Technically, rakudo should complain when you use .cow and v6.c together.
20:53 gfldex m: use v6.c; my @a = <a b c>; my @b = @a.cow;
20:53 camelia rakudo-moar e071e4: ( no output )
20:54 kalkin- m: use v6.c; my @a = <a b c>; sau @a.cow.WHY
20:54 camelia rakudo-moar e071e4: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared routine:␤    sau used at line 1. Did you mean 'say'?␤␤»
20:54 kalkin- m: use v6.c; my @a = <a b c>; say @a.cow.WHY
20:54 camelia rakudo-moar e071e4: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
20:54 gfldex someone would have to implement that but someone isn't here right now :)
20:55 kalkin- Also should i add the #= comments, to my methods so .WHY will returns something meaningful? I read about it in S26, but is this used at all?
20:56 * kalkin- is really missing best practices documentation on like _everything_ in perl6
20:56 gfldex for now there is no software that is using #= comments. If you would implement an editor in perl 6, you could benefit from it.
20:57 gfldex the problem with best practices is that we don't know what that is yet.
20:57 gfldex i personally would have exactly one entry for that list so far
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20:57 gfldex m: sub f(Int:D $i) { say $i }; # most of the time you actually want :D
20:57 camelia rakudo-moar e071e4: ( no output )
20:58 gfldex m: use variables :D; my Int $i;
20:58 camelia rakudo-moar e071e4: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Variable definition of type Int:D (implicit :D by pragma) requires an initializer␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3use variables :D; my Int $i7⏏5;␤    expecting any of:␤        constraint␤»
20:59 gfldex what reminds me of ...
20:59 kalkin- Ohh the :D smiley. Is this a good practice to add it every where where i expect some defined value?
21:00 kalkin- In most methods i expect to have some defined value, am I not? So I probably should put it almost everywhere, shouldn't i?
21:02 gfldex if you use it you will get the error message on the sub call. So you don't have to trace it back by hand.
21:02 gfldex also, you provide the compiler with more wood to chew on.
21:04 gfldex m: use variables :D; { use variables :_; my Int $i; }
21:04 camelia rakudo-moar e071e4: ( no output )
21:05 kalkin- gfldex: ok, so it's a good idea to use it.
21:06 gfldex it depends a bit on contect ofc. There can be very good reasons to allow undefined values.
21:06 gfldex also note that float point numbers are special
21:06 gfldex m: say NaN.Bool, NaN.defined;
21:06 camelia rakudo-moar e071e4: OUTPUT«TrueTrue␤»
21:07 dalek doc: ae5836b | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/variables.pod:
21:07 dalek doc: doc use variables :D
21:07 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/ae5836bf54
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21:21 Zoffix zacts, a JVM backend would still be using Rakudo. Rakudo is the compiler, JVM is one of the VMs it generates code for. The other being MoarVM.
21:21 zacts oh I see
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21:25 skids There have been other compilers in the past, most notably neicza which had .NET as a target.
21:25 timotimo we're defining the language perl6 based on the test suite, not on the implementation
21:25 timotimo anything that passes the test suite sufficiently is perl6
21:25 timotimo so it doesn't have to be rakudo or rakudo based
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21:27 sdo hello
21:27 gfldex m: say "ohai sdo!"
21:27 camelia rakudo-moar e071e4: OUTPUT«ohai sdo!␤»
21:29 kalkin- gfldex: ic. thanks for the hint with floating numbers
21:30 sdo I did stupid thing this afternoon I was cleaning my repo and unsubscribe by mistake to perl6 repository. I had a pull requeston it but what should I have to give to register again please?
21:32 sdo on github
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21:34 sdo hello :pmichaud
21:35 parabolize sdo: github says you just need to be mentioned. https://help.github.com/articles/​unsubscribing-from-conversations/
21:40 sdo parabolize: I had a green button says unsubscribe how to get it back?
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21:44 parabolize sdo: https://help.github.com/arti​cles/watching-repositories/ https://help.github.com/article​s/subscribing-to-conversations/
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21:51 xdg hi. Could someone please explain the difference between a constant and a sigil-less variable?  I'm interested in both implementation differences and practical use differences, if any.
21:54 xdg Next Q, given that $ variables can have arrays/hashes assigned to them and pass through subscripting, is there any difference between Q<$x=[1,2,3]> and Q<@x=1,2,3> other than flattening behavior?
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21:55 gfldex @-sigils are handled differently in string interpolation and in signatures
21:57 gfldex m: constant c = Array.new; my \s = Array.new; say c.VAR, s.VAR; c[1] = 11; s[1] = 11;
21:57 camelia rakudo-moar e071e4: OUTPUT«[][]␤»
21:59 xdg gfldex, that implies no difference between constants and sigil-less, yes?
22:00 gfldex looks like it
22:00 gfldex however, constant initialisers will be executed at compile time
22:01 xdg and the interpolation is just that qq<@foo> doesn't interpolate?
22:02 gfldex you can tell the Q what to interpolate and there are different flags for $ and @
22:02 xdg I'm finding a number of things in perl6 look different but work the same and I'm trying to both confirm that, and also find a way to explain concisely why one would want to use one or the other
22:02 gfldex that compile time thing on constant is a huge difference
22:03 gfldex m: constant a = BEGIN some-function(now); \a = some-function(now)
22:03 camelia rakudo-moar e071e4: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared routine:␤    some-function used at line 1␤␤»
22:04 gfldex what the value of a will heavily depends on some-function
22:04 gfldex actually BEGIN is likely the wrong phaser, it's a bit late
22:09 Xliff_zzzz does anyone know where the ::() operation is documented?
22:10 gfldex Xliff: https://doc.perl6.org/language/p​ackages#Interpolating_into_names
22:11 Xliff gfldex++ # Thanks
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22:37 dalek doc: 44fa2cc | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/packages.pod:
22:37 dalek doc: add ::() to index
22:37 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/44fa2ccf6b
22:38 dalek doc: 0cc68d2 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/terms.pod:
22:38 dalek doc: add constant to index
22:38 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/0cc68d2884
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