Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2016-07-03

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:31 * BenGoldberg wonders how hard it would be to create something like: use NativeCall::Simpler library => ["cdio", v13], library-prefix => "cdio_", library-case => "_", perl-case => "-"; sub eject-media-drive(Str) is native {}; sub close-tray is native {};
00:32 BenGoldberg The effect of the pragma would last until the end of the enclosing block.
00:36 timotimo all you have to do is export a new "native" trait that doesn't take an argument, and somehow install the value to be used somewhere it can reach
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01:54 dalek doc: e56c481 | (Daniel Green)++ | lib/Perl6/TypeGraph/Viz.pm:
01:54 dalek doc: Use File::Temp to provide more robust temp files
01:54 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/e56c4810d9
01:54 dalek doc: 5effb49 | MasterDuke17++ | lib/Perl6/TypeGraph/Viz.pm:
01:54 dalek doc: Merge pull request #660 from MasterDuke17/more_robust_temp_files
01:54 dalek doc:
01:54 dalek doc: Use File::Temp to provide more robust temp files
01:54 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/5effb499b0
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03:37 Herby_ \o
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03:53 Zoffix Wow, the speed difference between bleed and 2016.04 is VERY noticeable :o
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04:46 masak Zoffix: that's nice to hear
04:47 Zoffix Yeah. My web app restarts on every change and on bleed I pretty much don't notice the delay between making the change and refreshing the browser, but with 2016.04 I actually have to sit and wait for it to restart.
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04:56 Zoffix Or maybe it's having more modules :/ damn
04:56 Zoffix Takes ages with ~27 modules :\
04:59 Zoffix Does `require` precompile?
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05:05 Zoffix I guess "yes", because it takes nearly a minute after I delete .precomp :}
05:16 buharin today I will go with Perl Regex Chapter ;-)
05:18 Zoffix greast
05:23 buharin Zoffix, you know this Perl6 feature about named argument and positional argument
05:23 buharin I think it is a big step
05:23 Zoffix ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
05:28 Zoffix How to call a superclass method?
05:29 Zoffix I have an attribute in a subclass that needs to use an attribute from the base class. I can't use $.foo because it tells me "partially constructed" stuff and $!foo isn't it.
05:30 Zoffix m: class Foo { has $.conf = 42 }; class Bar is Foo { has $.meow = do { $.conf + 72 } }.new.meow.say
05:30 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Virtual method call $.conf may not be used on partially constructed object (maybe you mean $!conf for direct attribute access here?)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3ss Bar is Foo { has $.meow = do { $.conf7⏏5 +…»
05:30 Zoffix m: class Foo { has $.conf = 42 }; class Bar is Foo { has $.meow = do { $!conf + 72 } }.new.meow.say
05:30 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Attribute $!conf not declared in class Bar␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3 Foo { has $.meow = do { $!conf + 72 } }7⏏5.new.meow.say␤    expecting any of:␤        horizontal whitespace␤        postfix␤ …»
05:30 Zoffix ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
05:34 Zoffix m: class Foo { has $.conf }; class Bar is Foo { has $.meow; method new (:$conf) { self.bless: meow => do { $conf + 72 } } }.new(:42conf).meow.say
05:34 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«114␤»
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06:26 parabolize m: class Foo {has $.conf}; class Bar is Foo { has $.meow = self.conf + 72 }; Bar.new(:42conf).meow.say
06:26 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«114␤»
06:27 parabolize Zoffix: ^ would that work?
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07:03 ShimmerFairy blog post!    https://shimmeryfairy.wordpress.com/2016/0​7/03/some-questions-about-perl-6-modules/
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07:59 masak ShimmerFairy++ # https://shimmeryfairy.wordpress.com/2016/0​7/03/some-questions-about-perl-6-modules/
07:59 masak I especially like that post *because* it's about someone's journey, not about the neatly arranged end goal
08:08 parabolize ShimmerFairy: this would work I *think* https://gist.github.com/parabolize​/4c20684b1222f57c8353507ea01004d6
08:08 parabolize For question 1 that is
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08:44 dogbert17 o/ #perl6
08:47 dogbert17 todays stupid question: several classas have methods called 'hash' and 'list', why are they not called 'Hash' and 'List'?
08:49 masak it's a good question
08:50 psch it really is.  although "list" at least makes sense to me in so far that we don't have a class Item
08:50 psch and those are the two obvious assignment contexts
08:51 psch i.e. list and item, the latter which only exists as a lower-case method
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08:51 psch well, also, methods 'List' and 'Hash' also exist, and probably on the exact same classes
08:52 dogbert17 class Baggy have methods 'Bool', 'Set', 'SetHash' and ... 'hash'
08:53 psch m: say Baggy.^lookup('Hash')
08:53 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«(Mu)␤»
08:53 psch m: say Baggy.HOW.^name
08:53 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«Perl6::Metamodel::ParametricRoleGroupHOW␤»
08:53 psch m: say Bag.^lookup('Hash')
08:53 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«Method+{<anon|55421616>}.new␤»
08:53 psch dogbert17: Baggy is a role, and its mixin targets seem to bring method Hash themselves
08:54 psch well, the obvious target Bag at least seems to :)
08:54 psch m: say Bag.^roles
08:54 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«((Baggy) (QuantHash) (Associative))␤»
08:54 psch m: say $_ ~ " " ~ .^lookup('Hash') for Bag.^roles
08:54 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value $role of type Baggy in string context␤Any of .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can stringify undefined things, if needed.  in block  at <tmp> line 1␤Use of uninitialized value <element> of type Mu in string context␤Any of .^nam…»
08:54 dogbert17 so it might be a matter of avoiding 'collisions' then
08:55 psch m: say .^name ~ " " ~ (.^lookup('Hash') // 'Mu') for Bag.^roles
08:55 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«Baggy Mu␤QuantHash Mu␤Associative Mu␤»
08:55 psch and it's not from the other roles either
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09:01 dogbert17 m: my $breakfast = bag <eggs bacon bacon>; say $breakfast.Hash; say $breakfast.hash;
09:01 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«{bacon => 2, eggs => 1}␤{bacon => 2, eggs => 1}␤»
09:01 dogbert17 hmm
09:01 dogbert17 m: my $breakfast = bag <eggs bacon bacon>; say $breakfast.Hash.WHAT; say $breakfast.hash.WHAT;
09:01 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«(Hash)␤(Hash)␤»
09:06 ShimmerFairy dogbert17: That's a good question, like others have said. For  .list  at least, I think of it as saying "gimme something that fits inside a @ variable", instead of asking for a specific type.
09:06 ShimmerFairy (also, did the List type even exist before the GLR? I forget.)
09:06 psch bisect: say List.^name
09:06 bisectable psch: on both starting points the exit code is 0 and the output is identical as well
09:06 psch well, it exists too long for bisectable
09:06 psch i forget when the GLR actually happened
09:07 psch 2015.06 or so?
09:07 ShimmerFairy middle-ish of last year, yeah
09:07 dalek doc: b6427a0 | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | doc/Type/Baggy.pod6:
09:07 dalek doc: Added docs for Baggy.hash
09:07 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/b6427a0a1e
09:08 dogbert17 i think the bisectbot now goes back to 2015-10
09:10 dogbert17 an interesting topic it seems, thx for all the comments so far
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09:17 dogbert17 m: my $breakfast = bag <eggs bacon bacon>; say $breakfast.antipairs; say $breakfast.invert;
09:17 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«(2 => bacon 1 => eggs)␤(2 => bacon 1 => eggs)␤»
09:19 dogbert17 when discussing Baggy types specifically, won't antipairs and invert always give the same result even though they are implemented differently?
09:42 moritz seems to be true for any Associative type, no?
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09:49 dogbert17 moritz: what about
09:49 dogbert17 m: my %h = eggs => 1, bacon => (1,2); say %h.antipairs; say %h.invert;
09:49 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«(1 => eggs (1 2) => bacon)␤(1 => eggs 1 => bacon 2 => bacon)␤»
09:50 moritz huh
09:50 moritz I'm wrong
09:51 dogbert17 on the other hand, I don't think that Baggy types can have lists as values
09:51 psch m: say bag($(1,2), 3)
09:51 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«bag(3, (1 2))␤»
09:52 psch m: say .antipairs ~ " " ~ .invert with bag($(1,2), 3)
09:52 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«Lists on either side of non-dwimmy hyperop of infix:«=>» are not of the same length␤left: 1 elements, right: 2 elements␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
09:52 psch m: say .invert with bag($(1,2), 3)
09:52 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«Lists on either side of non-dwimmy hyperop of infix:«=>» are not of the same length␤left: 1 elements, right: 2 elements␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
09:52 psch m: say .antipairs with bag($(1,2), 3)
09:52 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«(1 => 3 1 => (1 2))␤»
09:53 psch oh, as values
09:53 psch yeah, no, that shouldn't work for Baggy
09:54 psch m: my BagHash $x .= new; $x<foo> = $(1,2); say $x.perl
09:54 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment; expected Int but got List ($(1, 2))␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
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09:54 dogbert17 I'm about to write some docs for Baggy.invert so I'm tryin to clarify if the in fact do the same thing
09:54 dogbert17 bad spelling :(
09:55 psch well, a Bag with something Positional as key can't .invert, apparently
09:55 psch which we probably should have a better error message for
09:55 nine dogbert17: a list method does not neccessarily have to return a List object
09:56 nine dogbert17: @array.list returns @array which is probably an Array, not a List. @array.List however really does return an immutable List
09:57 dogbert17 nine: interesting, could that explain the difference in capitalization?
09:58 nine At least retroactively :) I can say that when I added .List for giving you a real List object, I did think along those lines
09:58 dogbert17 :)
09:58 iH2O :)
10:00 masak m: say [1, 2, 3].list.^name; say [1, 2, 3].List.^name; say Array ~~ List
10:00 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«Array␤List␤True␤»
10:00 masak nine: ^^
10:01 masak nine: seems to be the other way around with .list and .List
10:01 masak nine: also an Array is a List, so in some (inheritance) sense both methods do return a List
10:01 nine masak: I don't see that? .list returns the array, as it's listy enough while .List returns you an unsubclassed List.
10:02 masak nine: do you have an example where .list does not return a List object?
10:02 psch m: say 5.list.WHAT
10:02 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«(List)␤»
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10:02 nine masak: when I said "real List object" I meant an object of the List class, not a subclass (like Array).
10:03 * psch blames list^Hkov
10:04 masak nine: it's very foreign to OO to reason like that, I find
10:04 masak nine: Array objects *are* objects of the List class
10:04 nine The point of .List was to provide an easy way for methods to hide implementation details like that they are collecting results in a mutable Array.
10:04 masak and other coercion methods are known to give the original invocant back if it's a subclass, yes?
10:05 psch m: say bag(1,2,3).Hash.WHAT
10:05 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«(Hash)␤»
10:05 psch m: say bag(1,2,3).hash.WHAT
10:05 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«(Hash)␤»
10:05 masak m: say 42.Real.^name
10:05 camelia rakudo-moar 3fda0b: OUTPUT«Int␤»
10:05 psch i suppose that means "it's inconsistent"
10:05 nine If they return an Array, callers might depend on the rsult being mutable, making it impossible to change the implementation to e.g. a more functional approach that does not need a mutable array for collecting results.
10:06 nine Well inconsistency is what I get for sneaking in this feature during the GLR frency without proper discussion :/
10:14 masak I think we had both .list and .List long before GLR
10:14 iH2O "also an Array is a List..." ??? does it mean it doesnt have direct access?
10:16 dogbert17 does the follow gist do Baggy.invert justice or is it to vague? https://gist.github.com/dogbert17​/818b4229a000c9e19c25b3c782951b44
10:16 dogbert17 s/to/too/
10:16 iH2O s/to/too
10:16 nine masak: true. It's the change in Array.List's behavior I added: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​817a11a448d099bb6e31e17f12b30de2240e0bc0
10:20 masak nine: I never quite understood why, fully aware of the drawbacks of inheritance hierarchies, we conjoined the notion of mutable collections with subclassing :/
10:22 nine masak: same here
10:24 masak (as opposed to, say, roles which have served us well elsewhere)
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10:28 nine masak: well I guess another year or two of language design could have fixed that ;)
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10:31 iH2O well, can start working right now on perl7 folks
10:33 iH2O *you can
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10:34 nine Well people, you know the drill! Anyone got a mug handy?
10:35 lizmat I got a mug handy, so what is this about ?
10:35 psch i also got a mug, but i don't wanna smash it :|
10:35 lizmat .oO( too lazy to backlog extensively )
10:35 dalek doc: 94eb63d | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | doc/Type/Baggy.pod6:
10:35 dalek doc: Added docs for Baggy.invert
10:35 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/94eb63d819
10:36 psch it's really cute, it has a cat half-covered with a discarded newspaper on it
10:36 psch it even looks a bit like the cat is reading the newspaper, which is titled "financial times"
10:37 iH2O do you identify with cats, psch?
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10:39 psch why would you think that, iH2O?
10:39 iH2O i picture you like a siberian tiger
10:39 psch okay
10:39 iH2O :)
10:39 masak nine: I'll throw mugs if people are not energized and are walking away from the community. :) not so sure I'd throw a mug 'cus of subclassing
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11:43 moritz hi all. I remember reading about a statistic that a big amount of data breaches were based on vulnerabilities that have been known for 8 years or something like that
11:43 moritz does anybody know what I talk about, and where I could find it again?
11:43 moritz I can't seem to find the right search terms
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12:05 AlexDaniel by the way, bisectbot does not go back to 2015.10 unless explicitly told to do so
12:15 moritz for the record, http://www8.hp.com/us/en/hp-news/press-release.​html?id=1915228&amp;pageTitle=Security-Threat-L​andscape-Still-Plagued-by-Known-Issues,-says-HP#.VOtW4fnF_Aw seems to be an updated version of the data I talked about earlier
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13:13 dmaestro Just installed rakudo star on linux, but panda failed (silently - oh no) to install modules due to permissions problems. The release notes say there is a way to uninstall modules, and discussion in panda issue #257, but how do I actually uninstall, for example, IO::Socket::SSL and its dependencies?
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13:23 AlexDaniel MasterDuke: this is great!
13:25 MasterDuke AlexDaniel: thanks. i don't like the segfaulting when you do enable the parallelization, but i don't think it's my code's fault
13:25 MasterDuke *occasional segfaulting
13:26 AlexDaniel MasterDuke: I don't think it is… I have several scripts that do similar parallel kind of thing, and they all crash after a while
13:28 AlexDaniel MasterDuke: anyway, if 1 is default, then there's probably no reason not to merge
13:29 MasterDuke yeah, i believe jnthn++ said he was going to work on that soon, which would be awesome. i think one *huge* draw to Perl 6 is/could be just how easy it is to add some quick and dirty parallelization, but if it's unreliable...
13:29 timotimo we've had a good push of reliability in the past already
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13:30 AlexDaniel MasterDuke: https://github.com/perl6/doc/pull/661/files​#diff-16f2390767c1219dc1e184afbec86235L613
13:30 AlexDaniel MasterDuke: I see no %% $parallel magic here, is it supposed to be this way?
13:30 timotimo maybe it'd be pretty amazing to have some crashy parallelism code written in nqp instead of perl6
13:30 timotimo that'll definitely reduce the amount of different moving things involved
13:31 MasterDuke progress in everything has made huge leaps and strides, but it is still dead easy to trigger segfaults and other random/weird errors in async/concurrent code
13:31 timotimo true
13:33 MasterDuke AlexDaniel: ahh, good catch
13:34 AlexDaniel MasterDuke: oops! :)
13:34 AlexDaniel MasterDuke: anyway, it means that we will have it copy-pasted three times… Perhaps you can try .race?
13:34 MasterDuke AlexDaniel: i just did it all at once originally because there are only a very few things, but i should add the %% $parallel to keep the old behavior
13:34 timotimo .race is often pretty b0rked
13:35 AlexDaniel I know, but in this case it might work
13:35 timotimo mhm
13:35 AlexDaniel or maybe not? Sometimes .race failed completely?
13:35 AlexDaniel what were the bugs exactly
13:35 MasterDuke i've been experimenting with .race the last few min, but i can't seem to get it to play nice with a %hash.kv
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13:38 AlexDaniel #125978 #126597
13:38 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=125978
13:38 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=126597
13:39 AlexDaniel but the last one is with .grep, so it might not affect us in htmlify
13:40 AlexDaniel In #127452 I say “It looks like there is no such problem with 「race」.”
13:40 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=127452
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13:52 MasterDuke a minor change in topic, but it seems that switching to write()ing the input to the external dot call instead of putting it in a temp file means that try()ing and CATCH()ing doesn't do what you'd want if the command doesn't exist
13:54 MasterDuke i.e., the call fails like it should, but nothing is caught
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13:54 MasterDuke m: my $dot; try {$dot = Proc::Async.new(:w, "asdfasdfasdfdot", "-T", "svg", "-o", "a"); CATCH {die "in new"}}; my $promise; try {$promise = $dot.start; CATCH {die "in start"}}; my $s = Q[digraph "perl6-type-graph" {rankdir=BT;}]; try {await($dot.write($s.encode)); CATCH {die "in write"}}; try {$dot.close-stdin; CATCH {die "in close"}}; try {await($promise); CATCH {die "in final await"}};say "hi"
13:54 camelia rakudo-moar 539ada: OUTPUT«in new␤  in block  at <tmp> line 1␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
13:55 MasterDuke huh, it works for camelia
13:56 MasterDuke or is that because it's using the RESTRICTED settings?
13:57 psch m: Proc::Async.new
13:57 camelia rakudo-moar 539ada: OUTPUT«Proc::Async is disallowed in restricted setting␤  in sub restricted at src/RESTRICTED.setting line 1␤  in method new at src/RESTRICTED.setting line 32␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
13:57 psch MasterDuke: i'd say that's very likely, yes
13:58 MasterDuke m: try { Proc::Async.new }
13:58 camelia rakudo-moar 539ada: ( no output )
13:59 psch m: Proc::Async.new; CATCH { die "died" }
13:59 camelia rakudo-moar 539ada: OUTPUT«died␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
13:59 psch well, + the extra block around, if you must
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14:21 jimmybobby anybody know when Rakudo will get a Windows installer without the user needing to install strawberry perl or Git to use panda?
14:21 jimmybobby will the plan be to eventually have an installer like current perl5 or python
14:24 moritz jimmybobby: we ship Rakudo Star .msi files already
14:24 moritz jimmybobby: see http://rakudo.org/downloads/star/
14:25 jimmybobby moritz: but can you use panda without installing strawberry perl/git?
14:25 jimmybobby moritz: I'm reading this
14:25 jimmybobby V
14:25 jimmybobby http://rakudo.org/2016/05/03/announce-window​s-64-bit-installer-for-rakudo-star-2016-04/
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14:30 moritz jimmybobby: you need git; not sure about strawberry perl
14:30 jimmybobby moritz: gotcha...thanks for the heads up
14:30 moritz hm, says so in the post
14:30 moritz probably for the prove command
14:32 jimmybobby thanks!
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14:39 timotimo you used to need strawberry perl to get a "prove" command
14:40 timotimo not sure about c compiler related things
14:40 moritz isn't there some prove6 work in progress?
14:41 tadzik yes
14:41 * moritz a bit out of the loop
14:41 tadzik last I tried it pretty much got the entire ecosystem right
14:41 tadzik heh, what can I say
14:41 tadzik my github contribution graph these days is pretty much a hackathon calendar :)
14:43 timotimo yup
14:44 moritz I've pretty much suspended all of my open source contributions to move my book forward
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15:03 dalek doc: aeea5b2 | coke++ | t/trailing_whitespace.t:
15:03 dalek doc: add (failing) trailing whitespace test
15:03 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/aeea5b2d54
15:03 dalek doc: 1259c40 | coke++ | doc/ (20 files):
15:03 dalek doc: remove trailing whitespace, test passes
15:03 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/1259c40042
15:03 dalek doc: 4ea494a | coke++ | / (589 files):
15:03 dalek doc: Merge branch 'master' into tws-test
15:03 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/4ea494ad7c
15:03 dalek doc: 5cfb61a | coke++ | / (3 files):
15:03 dalek doc: pass trailing whitespace test
15:03 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/5cfb61a9ff
15:03 dalek doc: 367324f | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | / (22 files):
15:03 dalek doc: Merge branch 'tws-test'
15:03 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/367324f8c5
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15:07 moritz argl, do we really need a test for that? Who is hurt by trailing whitespace?
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15:07 moritz I don't tend to run tests prior to pushing doc changes
15:08 moritz so we'll have failing tests for really small things
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15:12 AlexDaniel moritz: where have you been all that time?
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15:12 AlexDaniel moritz: https://github.com/perl6/doc/pull/633
15:14 moritz AlexDaniel: sorry, I don't manage to stay up-to-date with all pull requests
15:15 moritz I guess I should just shut up
15:15 AlexDaniel moritz: no-no, that's ok. However, my suggestion is to see how it goes
15:15 AlexDaniel moritz: if it causes too many problem we can always revert it
15:15 AlexDaniel problems*
15:16 mst moritz: generally trailing whitespace results in noise in diff/blame output later, so over the lifetime of a project it often saves more time than it costs
15:16 mst at least in the case of code; for documentation, I'm less arsed
15:18 AlexDaniel moritz: by the way, instead of running tests you can configure your text editor
15:18 AlexDaniel to either show trailing whitespace or to delete it automatically
15:19 AlexDaniel the last one is a bit too radical, IMO
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16:03 Zoffix parabolize++ thanks, that's perfect
16:07 tlvb Zoffix, FROGGS__: hello, I found an old log from this channel (https://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2016-01-06#i_11838107), containing what seems to be the first case of run-time module reloading in perl6, since you were the ones involved, do you know if things have changed, as in e.g. a "best practices" approach?
16:08 * Zoffix doesn't remember anything about it
16:08 Zoffix Nor do I know a way to do it now :)
16:09 tlvb well, you're in luck then, because you left a github gist in the log, and I have confirmed that it still works :p
16:09 Zoffix heh
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16:10 tlvb but I take it as there's not much of an official method then [yet]
16:11 * Zoffix is a perl 6 n00b
16:11 Zoffix I've no idea.
16:12 tlvb well, you're probably more knowledgeable than me anyway
16:13 tlvb now I need to face the question if I should switch to perl6 halfway through my irc bot rewrite
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16:14 Zoffix haha
16:14 mst my next bot is going to be multi-process so it can be all the languages at once
16:15 Zoffix tlvb, I guess I should actually bother to finish my IRC::Client rewrite :)
16:15 Zoffix Too many things to code. Not enough time.
16:15 AlexDaniel Zoffix: YES
16:15 tlvb I've actually thought about that (multiprocess), as a way of circumventing the module reloading.
16:15 tlvb yep
16:15 AlexDaniel please :)
16:16 Zoffix I'm working on this ATM: http://i.imgur.com/TxPNOoZ.png
16:17 Zoffix Release tool for Rakudo. Coming out pretty sweet, other than the snag I hit with all the modules taking like 40 seconds to load. So I'm stuffing all the classes into a single file now :(
16:18 Zoffix And It's a mix of Perl 5 and Perl 6 :) Powered by Mojolicious lol. There's a sweet blog post lurking in there.
16:18 tlvb that...that doesn't sound like something a perl6 noob would say...
16:19 * Zoffix chuckles
16:19 psch tlvb: even core devs sometimes get surprised at features that existed for years... :)
16:21 tlvb yeah, I'm just getting miserable about what my own level would be
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16:25 Zoffix Solution: stop measuring levels :D
16:26 * psch doesn't have an XP bar or anything
16:26 psch i mean, i don't even have a HUD
16:26 Zoffix :)
16:27 mst tlvb: so, my usual solution to such things is to not worry about being any good, and instead to make my victory condition 'suck slightly less than last time'
16:28 Zoffix mst++
16:29 tlvb yeah, perhaps I should make clear that this is in jest anyway, ...it's a bit difficult transfering from 5 though, eg I don't get to keep my +1 regex intuition etc.
16:29 psch m: say "foo" ~~ m:P5/.+/
16:29 camelia rakudo-moar 24e608: OUTPUT«「foo」␤»
16:29 psch m: say "foo" ~~ m:P5/\Qfoo\E/
16:29 camelia rakudo-moar 24e608: OUTPUT«「foo」␤»
16:29 psch tlvb: you can keep your regex intuition, if you must
16:30 psch hm, although i think \Q \E don't do the right thing there..?
16:30 psch what *do* they do? quotemeta?
16:30 Zoffix Yeah
16:30 psch m: say '$foo' ~~ m:P5/\Q$foo\E/ # 'cause aparently not
16:30 camelia rakudo-moar 24e608: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding var; expected Any but got Mu (Mu)␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
16:30 tlvb I feel like that would be a bad thing though, I don't want to keep programming 5, in 6
16:30 mst tlvb: best not regarding it as 'transferring', I think - you're learning a new language that happens to be in the same family as perl5
16:30 tlvb yeah
16:31 tlvb I've understood as much
16:31 tlvb well, it's automatic anyway once you actually /look/ at the language, since there are so many new/different things
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16:46 Zoffix Oh lol... Now that I've put all my 26 classes into a single file, I noticed I was accidentally creating a new database connection and creating a table for each of them instead of just once :P
16:46 Zoffix That might've contributed to the slow load :}{
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16:49 timotimo whoops :)
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16:51 MasterDuke if you're in a NEXT phaser, is it possible to know that this is the last NEXT? i.e., you're about to go into the LEAVE then LAST phaser
16:52 psch phasers are just Blorsts on a Block that get triggered when their condition is met
16:52 psch so i'm pretty sure no, no NEXT Blorst ever knows if it's visited the last time
16:53 psch like, without a state inside they don't even know how often they've been invoked
16:53 psch +var
16:53 MasterDuke hmm, Blorst isn't in the docs at all, should it be?
16:53 psch +all the implied incrementing
16:53 psch it's in the glossary i think
16:53 psch Block or Statement
16:53 psch well, BLock Or STatement :)
16:54 timotimo S99:Blorst
16:54 synopsebot6 Link: http://design.perl6.org/S99.html#Blorst
16:54 tlvb hah
16:54 MasterDuke nope
16:54 timotimo S99:blorst
16:54 synopsebot6 Link: http://design.perl6.org/S99.html#blorst
16:54 timotimo there it is
16:54 MasterDuke that is, it's not in https://docs.perl6.org/language/glossary
16:55 timotimo why isn't it synced?
16:55 timotimo that seems to be a lot less stuff than S99
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17:00 AlexDaniel Zoffix: is https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/54​0a3403c6787b0542864998efd7563aca5076e9 the result of the font change?
17:00 AlexDaniel Zoffix: or is it needed anyway, no matter what font we use?
17:04 tbrowder ref trailing ws: what about using git hooks to enforce a trim eol ws policy?
17:06 Zoffix AlexDaniel, what's the strugle?
17:07 AlexDaniel Zoffix: running ./app.pl says that I have to install these modules
17:07 Zoffix AlexDaniel, what's the full message?
17:07 AlexDaniel [Sun Jul  3 20:07:41 2016] [debug] Install CSS::Sass, CSS::Minifier::XS, and Mojolicious::Plugin::AssetPack to enable SASS processor
17:08 Zoffix AlexDaniel, right, that's the debug statement informing the SASS processor is optional. Do you need to enable it?
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17:08 AlexDaniel Zoffix: if I want to work on CSS, then I guess yes?
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17:08 Zoffix AlexDaniel, yeah
17:09 AlexDaniel Zoffix: or are you saying that I can use any other SASS processor to do the same thing?
17:09 AlexDaniel which is probably correct, but then it can be added to the docs
17:09 Zoffix AlexDaniel, yes.. If you have sass installed, just run sass -w assets/sass/style.scss:html/css/style.css  # if I remember my paths right
17:10 Zoffix CSS::Minifier::XS should actually be tossed. ::AssetPack doesn't use it for SASS files, since sass can minify
17:10 AlexDaniel the title says “Add more build instructions” so I'm fine with any instructions, as long as they work :)
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17:25 dalek doc: f3fdd08 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | / (3 files):
17:25 dalek doc: Revert "Improve typography"
17:25 dalek doc:
17:25 dalek doc: This reverts commit 36e44716cd4ab8f3f0d557fdfc0ea7f007a9c8ea.
17:25 dalek doc:
17:25 dalek doc: Given that most people who commented on #652 disliked the change in one way or
17:25 dalek doc: another, I am reverting this commit.
17:25 dalek doc:
17:25 dalek doc: This, however, does not mean that fonts do not have to be changed, or that
17:25 dalek doc: some of the changes in this commit are not good. As all of the changes are in
17:25 dalek doc: one rather big commit, it is a bit hard to cherry-pick what is actually needed,
17:26 dalek doc: especially given that there is no final consensus on each particular thing.
17:26 dalek doc:
17:26 dalek doc: In other words, this revert does not solve #652, but it gives us a good start
17:26 dalek doc: for working on the issues. Further discussion in #652 is welcome.
17:26 dalek doc:
17:26 dalek doc: This also reverts 540a3403c6787b0542864998efd7563aca5076e9. It is a followup
17:26 dalek doc: to the typography changes, which may or may not make sense when applied alone.
17:26 dalek doc: The commit message says “reduce line-height” but in reality it increases it
17:26 dalek doc: compared to the versions before “Improve typography” commit. It also conflicts
17:26 dalek doc: with the revert anyway.
17:26 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f3fdd08e97
17:29 Zoffix :)
17:30 AlexDaniel see also: https://github.com/perl6/doc/is​sues/652#issuecomment-230164905
17:31 AlexDaniel Zoffix: I have to admit that it is pretty sad to see reverts :/
17:36 Zoffix Well, reverts are undoings of stupid decisions. The worse alternative is to keep them in :P
17:37 AlexDaniel it is sad because people have put significant amounts of effort to introduce the change, and then other people are putting their effort to revert it… :/
17:43 TEttinger increase line height to the moon!
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17:46 MasterDuke anybody want to take a (hopefully) final look at https://github.com/perl6/doc/pull/661 before i merge it?
17:47 MasterDuke and speaking of, is there a preference for a merge commit, or squashing?
17:47 AlexDaniel MasterDuke: it depends on the commits
17:48 AlexDaniel if you feel that some information is lost due to squashing then don't squash
17:48 AlexDaniel if you feel that these commits are polluting the history then squash
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17:50 MasterDuke so no hard and fast rule? then in this case i'll squash
17:50 * AlexDaniel is still pissed off by the fact that someone merged spelling fixes that were split into 22 commits, one commit per word
17:52 AlexDaniel MasterDuke: by the way, have you seen this? https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f1​7ca342f434a160d455b9d16f7d4a2d17279087
17:53 AlexDaniel it is just interesting
17:53 MasterDuke i hadn't
17:53 MasterDuke i've never gotten that particular error
17:54 AlexDaniel MasterDuke: it is very, very old :)
17:54 AlexDaniel I mean, the commit itself
17:55 MasterDuke yeah, and if i'm reading it correctly it starts everything at once
17:56 MasterDuke i.e., doesn't allow you to specify the parallelism like i added
17:57 MasterDuke there are some more spots where it might make sense to make parallel
17:58 MasterDuke i just started with what i (roughly) measured as the places with the best ROI
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18:06 dalek doc: 8d83f42 | MasterDuke17++ | / (2 files):
18:06 dalek doc: Parallelize a bunch of htmlify.p6 (#661)
18:06 dalek doc:
18:06 dalek doc: * Convert the "Processing $dir Pod files ..." section to a bunch of start()s and await()s and convert the "Writing [type graph images, specialized visualizations] to html/image" section to a bunch of Proc::Async.new.start()s, and awaits()
18:06 dalek doc:
18:06 Zoffix ISAGN for a trait that'd let .new() take attributes, but still have them be private.
18:06 dalek doc: * Don't use temp files at all for dot command, instead just write the content to stdin of the started process
18:06 dalek doc:
18:06 dalek doc: * Add the --parallel argument to specify how much parallelization to do, the default is 1 so the old serial behavior is the default (should help Travis)
18:06 dalek doc:
18:06 dalek doc: * Only check if dot exists once
18:06 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/8d83f42b85
18:07 psch m: class A { has $!a; submethod BUILD(:$!a) { }; method get_a { $!a } }; A.new(:1a).get_a.say
18:07 camelia rakudo-moar 24e608: OUTPUT«1␤»
18:07 psch Zoffix: i think ^^^ that BUILD shortform is good enough for that :P
18:08 Zoffix m: class A { has $!a; has $.b; submethod BUILD(:$!a) { }; method get_a { $!a } }; A.new(:1a, :42b).b.say
18:08 camelia rakudo-moar 24e608: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
18:08 Zoffix psch, ^ not really.
18:08 Zoffix You have to duplicate each attribute, which is a PITA
18:09 dalek doc/missing-doc: 1bb1550 | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | doc/Type/Cool.pod:
18:09 dalek doc/missing-doc: Added documentation for sech and asech to Cool.pod
18:09 dalek doc/missing-doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/1bb155018a
18:09 * psch makes a note to not always consider ISAGN snarky
18:09 psch i think i blame mst for that notion
18:09 psch Zoffix: fwiw, i agree that the duplication of each Attribute is annoying, but i disagree that it should be easier
18:10 psch Zoffix: but i'm also really not coherent anymore today to actually argue that position
18:10 Zoffix FWIW, I mean via a module, not necessarily a core feature
18:10 psch Zoffix: further, the only way i see to have a trait do that is by building the BUILD, which probably could work, but would clearly still have to take care of all Attributes
18:10 psch *building the BUILD during trait application
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18:11 psch but i'm not sure if you can really reach the containing class from the Attribute, and if the trait runs at the right time to add BUILD
18:11 psch it's worth experimentation, for sure
18:11 arnsholt Hee hee hee. I'll be leaving academia soon, rejoining The Real World, and recently discovered what language I'll be working with
18:11 arnsholt Smalltalk! =D
18:12 AlexDaniel MasterDuke: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/19​d6b9ba35bcb2899671e75cc6837a1c6e0a6d67 :D
18:12 AlexDaniel MasterDuke: so your attempt is effectively third
18:13 MasterDuke third time lucky i hope
18:13 AlexDaniel it looks right
18:13 AlexDaniel MasterDuke++
18:14 AlexDaniel [Coke]: some time ago you said that we can probably clean up the list of branches in the doc repo. I've done that now
18:14 AlexDaniel [Coke]: there are still some thing to remove though :)
18:16 AlexDaniel moritz: perhaps you can review the most recent MasterDuke++ commit and decide what to do with two of your branches yourself :)
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18:19 FROGGS__ tlvb: hi, considering how module loading works, I believe runtime loading of modules would be quite problematic
18:21 FROGGS__ tlvb: unless it is about subroutines only that get "exported"... I could imagine that we could re-bind the code objects
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18:39 moritz AlexDaniel: thanks, I've deleted the branches
18:44 dalek doc: 2f6b24c | moritz++ | util/update-and-sync:
18:44 dalek doc: Build with --parallel=4
18:44 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/2f6b24c885
18:45 moritz let's see how well that works out.
18:45 AlexDaniel moritz: ehh, travis will fail
18:45 TEttinger AlexDaniel: Zoffix: somebody mentioned monospace fonts? :D
18:45 Zoffix TEttinger, I didn't...
18:45 TEttinger I've been editing one open source font for a while now
18:46 TEttinger well somebody mentioned in the revert-mentioned issue that some of the fonts were ugly in the docs?
18:46 AlexDaniel all fontts are ugly, yes
18:46 AlexDaniel fonts*
18:47 moritz AlexDaniel: uhm, does travis really use util/update-and-sync?
18:47 moritz and if so, where do the SSH keys come from that the "sync" part uses? :-)
18:48 AlexDaniel moritz: ah whoops. My bad
18:48 TEttinger I do like this one, though I don't know if it's the right style. I also don't know what it needs to fit perl6's more unusual unicode usage https://github.com/tommyettinge​r/home/tree/gh-pages/Fonts/ttf (this is kinda a temporary holding area for me to put changing versions)
18:49 TEttinger I can make some preview images
18:49 TEttinger (the original repo is https://github.com/MihailJP/Inconsolata-LGC , but it really needed some fixes to hinting)
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18:53 AlexDaniel interestingly, the only font that I can look at for more than a few minutes is Terminus. But there's no proper vector version :(
18:58 * moritz is not a very visual person, and doesn't really understand all the fuzz about fonts
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19:00 Zoffix wtf... looks like RT rest interface doesn't decode query params :S
19:03 AlexDaniel wow, what a beautiful spam
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19:04 Zoffix ?
19:05 cognominal joined #perl6
19:10 AlexDaniel Zoffix: 128531 ticket, if you can see it
19:10 AlexDaniel Zoffix: basically it is well formatted, with colors and images
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19:17 * Zoffix laughs
19:18 Zoffix RT's REST doesn't like encoded URLs and HTTP::UserAgent doesn't like encoded URLs :P
19:18 Zoffix Fuckin' 'ell
19:18 jdv79 what does it all mean?
19:20 Zoffix I'm trying to have a piece of Perl 6 code fetch perl6 ticket queue from RT. But because the software involved is crap, I'm wasting my time instead of achieving results.
19:21 Zoffix And this started with Perl5's RT::Client::REST that's also idiotic: search returns only ticket IDs and if you want to have any usable info for them, you have to perform a request per ticket ~_~
19:35 mst Zoffix: not actually true
19:36 Zoffix mst, which part? That RT doesn't like encoded URLs or that RT::Client::REST only returns IDs?
19:36 mst Zoffix: you can get more than just the ticket ids, I have code that converts the summary into JSON with subject, queue, owner etc.
19:38 Zoffix Which summary?
19:38 mst Zoffix: oh, great, the 'rt' script does it, I'm not sure the module is
19:38 mst this is why on my list of things to do is to rewrite the entire blasted thing with my Mojo::FutureDo code + Mojo::UA
19:39 Zoffix And even the rt script is messed up because it returns only like 20-30 characters for the subject
19:39 Zoffix Jesus. Everything RT-related is cursed.
19:39 mst err, wrong
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19:40 mst Zoffix: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/525297
19:40 moritz everything software related is cursed.
19:41 mst Zoffix: yes, I'm aware that's a giant kludge. but I was more interested in my react+mobx front end and it's a working kludge that I don't have to think about
19:43 Zoffix heh
19:43 Zoffix "Makefile:4: *** missing separator (did you mean TAB instead of 8 spaces?).  Stop."
19:44 mst right, because in the process of pasting the indentation will have gone missing
19:44 mst but, still, at least it gets you a summary
19:44 Zoffix Seems to just hang
19:45 mst that's probably because it's taking a looong time to get the results
19:45 mst because that's summaries for like every ticket ;)
19:47 parabolize ++awwaiid for fixing RT#128470. I should update my rakudo more often.
19:47 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=128470
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19:48 Zoffix mst++ thanks. At least I got something working
19:48 mst I'll tell you if I get a better module together
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19:58 pmurias arnsholt: will you have to use some horrible smalltalk IDE :/
19:58 pmurias ?
20:05 arnsholt pmurias: Well, it's Smalltalk. That's *literally* how Smalltalk works =)
20:05 arnsholt The development is done *in* the application
20:06 arnsholt It's an interesting approach, but apparently not ideal
20:06 arnsholt The manager I talked to said the development environment wasn't very good
20:07 mst i think part of the trouble is that people who're used to other languages try to fight it rather than going with the flow
20:07 mst it's not a good 'development environment'
20:07 mst ... but if you can achieve the smalltalk zen, it's apparently a very good way to write smalltalk
20:07 arnsholt Yeah, that's probably true
20:08 arnsholt It's also a legacy application, having been in continuous production for 20 years this year
20:09 moritz heh, I can top that
20:09 arnsholt Not bad!
20:09 arnsholt What kind of system is it?
20:09 moritz 22 years, and writtein in Perl 5
20:09 moritz a CLI interface to a database
20:10 arnsholt Neat
20:10 moritz CMDB, CRM, asset management etc.
20:10 arnsholt Right, right
20:10 mst so basically the bits with 'use strict;' are the modern bits?
20:10 moritz it used to be based on msql, and had a separate "strings" table, because storing strings inline in the table didn't work very well back then
20:10 arnsholt This is process and document managment for Norwegian police and prosecutor's offices
20:11 moritz mst: basically all code I touch has "use strict; use warnings; no warnings 'redefine';" in it
20:11 moritz and if not, I add it
20:12 moritz (the "no warnings 'redefine'" is an artifact of a custom module loader that nobody wants to touch, but which otherwise works)
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20:12 moritz and the "strings" table is long gone as well
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20:13 moritz arnsholt: how large is the team you'll be working on?
20:13 arnsholt moritz: Not sure, 20ish people I think
20:13 mst moritz: yeah, that's the most common warnings category for me to turn off tbh
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20:14 mst arnsholt: surprised if people dislike the dev env they haven't tweaked it already, given it's part of the thing
20:14 arnsholt Yeah, I'll have to see what it's like once I get into it in August
20:15 arnsholt Sounded like part of the problem was their Smalltalk, which was good in 1999 (or whenever), but is apparently not quite as hot these days
20:15 moritz mst: some things are quite hard to tweak; if the development happens within the application, source control might not be external, and thus a very delicate topic
20:15 arnsholt Apparently Smalltalk has had some very good VCS things quite early
20:16 moritz that's speculation here, but I know from some earlier Navision systems that they had that kind of problem
20:16 arnsholt If I remember correctly from what I've heard at least
20:16 moritz arnsholt: the question is just if it's still good by today's standards
20:16 mst Navision
20:16 mst who called their scripting thing 'client server language'
20:16 mst that navision?
20:17 moritz mst: that Microsoft thingy blah
20:17 arnsholt moritz: ISTR hearing about more or less git-like things, actually
20:17 moritz arnsholt: that's hopeful :-)
20:17 mst moritz: yep. I used to have to integrate with that before microsoft bought it
20:18 mst it was ... stunning
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20:18 arnsholt moritz: Yeah, I think it'll definitely be an interesting challenge to work with
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20:24 moritz arnsholt: do keep us up to date :-)
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20:42 arnsholt moritz: I will, I will =)
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22:47 zengargoyle hrmmm... looks like LWP::Simple needs a dependency on IO::Socket::SSL so tests can access https: urls.
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