Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2016-07-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:03 dalek doc: 4897e96 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/functions.pod6:
01:03 dalek doc: show my &somefix:<foo> = form
01:03 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/4897e96810
01:06 dalek bisectbot/graphs_for_benchable: 669e5c7 | (Daniel Green)++ | / (2 files):
01:06 dalek bisectbot/graphs_for_benchable: Initial attempt at adding graphing to benchable
01:06 dalek bisectbot/graphs_for_benchable:
01:06 dalek bisectbot/graphs_for_benchable: This works, but requires cloning the gist onto the filesystem and doing git add, git commit, git push
01:06 dalek bisectbot/graphs_for_benchable: review: https://github.com/perl6/b​isectbot/commit/669e5c79d5
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03:02 dalek bisectbot: 6fd5760 | (Daniel Green)++ | / (2 files):
03:02 dalek bisectbot: Initial attempt at adding graphing to benchable
03:02 dalek bisectbot: review: https://github.com/perl6/b​isectbot/commit/6fd5760965
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03:45 dalek bisectbot: 498c685 | (Daniel Green)++ | benchable.pl:
03:45 dalek bisectbot: No need for a unique filename when uploading a graph
03:45 dalek bisectbot: review: https://github.com/perl6/b​isectbot/commit/498c685ee5
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04:13 vimal2012 I got the error "Cannot modify an immutable Str", when I ran this file https://paste.debian.net/plain/782191  How to correct this error?
04:15 AlexDaniel m: my $string = "The \n quick \n brown \n fox \n jumps \n over \n the \n lazy \n dog \n"; for $string.lines { say S/ \s // }
04:15 camelia rakudo-moar 7976fe: OUTPUT«The␤quick ␤brown ␤fox ␤jumps ␤over ␤the ␤lazy ␤dog ␤»
04:15 AlexDaniel that's one way
04:15 vimal2012 Upper case S?
04:17 AlexDaniel yea. “The lower-case version (s///) substitutes in-place, while the upper-case version (S///) leaves the original alone and returns the resultant string.” (https://docs.perl6.org/language/​operators#index-entry-S%2F%2F%2F)
04:17 Frameless vimal2012: http://perl6.party/post/Perl​-6-S---Substitution-Operator
04:17 Frameless m: .say for "The \n quick \n brown \n fox \n jumps \n over \n the \n lazy \n dog \n".words
04:17 camelia rakudo-moar 7976fe: OUTPUT«The␤quick␤brown␤fox​␤jumps␤over␤the␤lazy␤dog␤»
04:18 AlexDaniel yea, it depends on what you actually want
04:18 Frameless m: .say for "The \n quick \n brown \n fox \n jumps \n over \n the \n lazy \n dog \n".lines».trim
04:18 camelia rakudo-moar 7976fe: OUTPUT«The␤quick␤brown␤fox​␤jumps␤over␤the␤lazy␤dog␤»
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07:38 * TimToady drove from Köln to Milano yesterday, today we drive to Rome for the Curry On conference that starts tomorrow
07:41 FROGGS_ TimToady: happy driving :o)
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07:52 * ShimmerFairy suddenly wishes $*PROGRAM-NAME were really $*PROGRAM_NAME again, grumble grumble...
07:53 FROGGS_ aye
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07:55 ShimmerFairy since my US keyboard has _ as the shifted version of -, as I've mentioned before (also, it looks better) :P
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08:10 FROGGS_ ShimmerFairy: that's what I said when the kebab-all-the-things patch landed
08:11 FROGGS_ we should kebab methods names and variables only if the are lowercase
08:11 ShimmerFairy It's what I've said since I found out about it :) . I had to look in the documentation because I couldn't figure it out with $*EXECUTABLE_NAME, $?EXECUTABLE_NAME, $*PROGRAM_NAME, etc.
08:12 nine If that's the worst flaw in Perl 6's design, I can live with it.
08:12 FROGGS_ the reason for kebab after all was to save that keystroke (shift) for typing lowercase names
08:13 FROGGS_ so introducing a keystroke for constants and other stuff is against that principle
08:13 moritz also I hope we'll eventually have IDEs that can autocomplete such names
08:13 ShimmerFairy I think a good compromise solution would be to have both variants, for people who like kebab-case, and for the normal people :)
08:13 FROGGS_ ahh, no
08:13 FROGGS_ :o)
08:13 ShimmerFairy moritz: I don't use autocompletion in my programming anyway, so that's not a solution.
08:17 ShimmerFairy FROGGS_: solution #2: switch to common-lisp style case-insensitive names, with _ being the "capital letter" of - .  :P
08:18 moritz ah well, you'll just have to remember then :-)
08:20 ShimmerFairy moritz: I think my problem ultimately comes down to the fact that, to me, YELLING-KEBAB is both ugly and unintuitive.
08:31 stmuk shouldn't kebab case be localised to gyro (.de) and kebob (.ca) at least? :)
08:37 AlexDaniel I think that it's weird to adapt a language to some random keyboard layout
08:37 AlexDaniel isn't it supposed to be other way round?… In a perfect world, at least
08:38 AlexDaniel anyway, you can always change your keyboard layout, if that bothers you a lot
08:38 AlexDaniel and while you are at it, throw in some unicode characters
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09:02 marcel_ m: Buf.new(10 +& 0xFF)
09:02 camelia rakudo-moar 7976fe: ( no output )
09:02 marcel_ m: say Buf.new(10 +& 0xFF)
09:02 camelia rakudo-moar 7976fe: OUTPUT«Buf:0x<0a>␤»
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09:02 marcel_ m: my int $i = 10; say Buf.new($i +& 0xFF)
09:02 camelia rakudo-moar 7976fe: OUTPUT«Type check failed in initializing element #0 to Buf; expected uint8 but got Int (10)␤  in any  at gen/moar/m-Metamodel.nqp line 1736␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in any  at gen/moar/m-Metamodel.nqp line 3055␤  in any…»
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09:04 marcel_ m: my int $i = 10; ($i +& 0xFF).WHAT.say
09:04 camelia rakudo-moar 7976fe: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
09:04 marcel_ so whats the problem, anyone?
09:05 masak m: say Int ~~ uint8
09:05 camelia rakudo-moar 7976fe: OUTPUT«Cannot unbox a type object␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
09:06 marcel_ It is introduced in the latest few rakudo versions, before it was ok
09:20 nine bisectable: my int $i = 10; say Buf.new($i +& 0xFF)
09:20 bisectable nine: No build for 'bad' revision
09:21 nine bisectable: help
09:21 bisectable nine: Like this: bisectable: good=2015.12 bad=HEAD exit 1 if (^∞).grep({ last })[5] // 0 == 4 # RT128181
09:21 nine bisectable: good=2015.12 bad=HEAD my int $i = 10; say Buf.new($i +& 0xFF)
09:21 bisectable nine: No build for 'bad' revision
09:21 nine bisectable: good=2015.12 bad=b06a99ebdd79393ce109cc214a6019ada5a0218a my int $i = 10; say Buf.new($i +& 0xFF)
09:21 bisectable nine: bisect log: https://gist.github.com/58e1​921c8d812add972e9cd8fe30663b
09:21 bisectable nine: (2016-07-11) https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/de5d9e7
09:22 nine lizmat: ^^^
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09:28 iH2O hi folks
09:28 holyghost Hello
09:30 iH2O hello holly
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09:44 holyghost I am going to install strawberry perl one o these days, on a core duo 2
09:44 holyghost I'd really like something as activestate or strawberry for perl6
09:45 holyghost It's just a no-jit rakudo now
09:45 holyghost 2016.01 or something
09:46 holyghost I am more of an end-user as I don't fully grok the source code of perl6, it's difficult enough for some people, except maybe C++ folks
09:46 stmuk there is a 64 bit jited 2016.04 msi
09:47 holyghost I see
09:47 holyghost right I forgot about that
09:47 holyghost I only have mac mini as a iX processor system
09:48 holyghost an i5
09:48 iH2O srry to hear that
09:48 holyghost It's loaded with mac os x el capitan
09:48 stmuk the 64 bit 2016.07 dmg then
09:48 holyghost sure I am going to send in a program to nintendo, a metroid game then I'll have some money
09:49 holyghost maybe I'll buy an amiga x1000 or x5000
09:49 holyghost an amigo os 4.1 PPC machine
09:49 holyghost s/amigo/amiga
09:49 holyghost They went more or less the apple way with their processors
09:50 stmuk an i5 is 64 bit
09:50 holyghost I know
09:51 stmuk I don't understand your problem then
09:51 holyghost well strawberry and activestate is win32
09:51 holyghost e.g. they have COM bindings
09:51 stmuk you are using Windows?
09:51 stmuk which OS?
09:51 holyghost the interface of an instance in an array
09:52 holyghost 7
09:52 stmuk on what processor
09:52 holyghost core duo 2
09:52 stmuk well that runs Win 7 64 bit OK then
09:52 holyghost I forgot if you can load a 64bit on an amd64 arch
09:53 holyghost I though not
09:53 stmuk is whether your OS is 32 bit or 64 bit
09:53 holyghost s/though/thought
09:53 holyghost It's 32 bit
09:54 stmuk I think you can still download the 64 bit for free until the end of the month
09:54 stmuk for Win 10 I mean
09:54 holyghost ok good point
09:55 stmuk you could also probably build 32 bit rakudo OK with the gcc in strawberry perl
09:56 stmuk but there would be no jit and some of the NativeCall modules might not work
09:56 holyghost To download win 10, do I just click the microsoft.com link in google ?
09:57 stmuk I forget but there was a link on the MS site for the ISO
09:58 * holyghost start a download
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10:04 holyghost ok I hope that works out
10:04 holyghost thanks
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10:05 stmuk np
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10:16 holyghost If you install win 7 from a 6 year old DVD-R, it installs 32 bit right ?
10:16 holyghost I don't know much of windows, there's no 'uname -a' for example
10:17 timotimo you should be able to right-click on "my computer" on the desktop to figur eout if it's 32bit or 64bit
10:17 holyghost ok
10:18 El_Che if I remember correctly, there where 64-bit win7 iso's also 6 year ago
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10:19 timotimo who is hack user emeric?
10:19 El_Che on my laptop (I am a Linux user) I have a w32 virtual box vm, and a 64 win7 parition for games (I boot that once a year for steam sales :) )
10:19 timotimo they have a screen -r irc that's consuming a crapton of cpu time
10:20 timotimo one is already up to 106 hours, the other is at 107 hours
10:20 timotimo i'm pretty sure it isn't supposed to be like that?
10:20 psch the 50% cpu for each is the more interesting bit i think
10:21 psch well, unless the 106h is cpu time too, maybe?
10:22 timotimo i was just wondering what might be causing the noticable amount of cpu usage on collect
10:22 timotimo for one week, the usage has been pretty much constant
10:22 timotimo one part is of course your development, but i don't think you're developing for actually 24 hours a day without pause :)
10:23 timotimo i kind of wish i could ask collectd for graphs 2x as wide for the same amount of time
10:23 timotimo i mean collectd-web
10:23 psch nah, i kinda like sleep occasionally :)
10:23 timotimo grafana is so much nicer user-interface wise, i think
10:24 timotimo w says emeric has been idle for 7 days now
10:24 timotimo i can just kill the weechat process and see who leaves %)
10:25 * timotimo read too many BOFH stories
10:25 jeek /kill 'em all, root'll sort 'em out
10:25 timotimo %)
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10:30 nine timotimo: you can actually. Open the image and add &width=2000 to the URL
10:31 timotimo well, it'd be nice if the web interface'd allow me to do something like that for all graphs, and keep that setting
10:32 nine There's also a GraphWidth setting in the config file
10:32 timotimo oh? neat.
10:33 timotimo but that's not per-user, right?
10:33 nine no, it isn't
10:33 timotimo i don't want to make it unusable for the other users
10:42 holyghost Is there going to be 32 bit support for perl6 in the future ?
10:42 timotimo uh oh, what's it now. ssh hack.p6c.org is taking a long time
10:42 timotimo it hasn't crashed again, has it? >:(
10:43 psch uptime is <2
10:43 psch well, load :)
10:43 timotimo nope, it's fine
10:43 timotimo it just took a long time for some random reason
10:46 timotimo stracing the screen session emeric has tells me there's something rather wrong going on
10:46 timotimo it seems to be stuck in a while loop trying to attach or something
10:47 timotimo i killed that one that was spinning its wheels, that seems to have helped
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11:21 nine holyghost: rakudo should already run on 32 bit systems?
11:21 lizmat nine: looks like:
11:21 lizmat #                nqp::setelems(to, $j + $elems);  # presize for efficiency
11:21 lizmat fixes the problem ??!!
11:22 lizmat oops, no, my bad
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11:44 holyghost nine : no-jit and 2016.01
11:44 holyghost nine : I'll try the strawberry perl to install a later version tomorrow
11:46 holyghost I just got back from the pub
11:46 holyghost I drank a good coffee
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13:38 Zoffix holyghost, Strawberry Perl is a sister language, not Perl 6. You should build Rakudo from sauce. Latest version is only a day old: http://rakudo.org/downloads/rakudo/
13:38 Zoffix Though I don't think there's JIT on 32-bit versions
13:39 stmuk you could also probably build 32 bit rakudo OK with the gcc in strawberry perl
13:40 holyghost ok
13:41 holyghost I'll give it a go tomorrow
13:41 holyghost I'm taking the day off
13:41 holyghost I never used strawberry perl, I only know some activestate
13:42 mst they're both perl5
13:42 holyghost The shell is not a problem though
13:42 mst strawberry's the (more recent) community one, activestate is a commercial one
13:42 mst they're the same language. perl6 is not.
13:42 holyghost ah I didn't know that
13:42 holyghost that I know
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13:43 holyghost I need the perl5 for building perl6 I thought
13:44 holyghost I won't meddle in perl5 anymore though, the language is really the swiss army knife but maybe the OOP is lacking, though I try to use new languages except for C/C++
13:44 stmuk you can build rakudo with strawberry perl and git on windows
13:44 Zoffix holyghost, yeah, and strawberry also has C compiler and make tool that you'll need. So do install it. I was just clarifying that you won't get Perl 6 by just installing Strawberry alone
13:44 holyghost ok I see
13:44 mst holyghost: perl5's OOP is better than python or ruby or javascript
13:44 Zoffix holyghost, have you experimented with Moose in Perl 5? That's the Perl 5's OO
13:44 stmuk and windows git
13:45 mst holyghost: that's a lot of why I use it so much
13:45 mst holyghost: ruby is much prettier but ruby's OO is epically terrible in comparison
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13:46 holyghost I am not too good at it, but roles are actor-language things ?
13:46 holyghost It's not the C++11 or something but we need to define a whole OOP system in scheme macros for school
13:47 mst holyghost: perl5 and perl6 are the only languages with a decent 'has' and support for roles (traits)
13:47 holyghost s/need/needed
13:47 mst though traits come from smalltalk land
13:47 mst 'has' and before/after/around are more CLOSish
13:47 holyghost I am on the basic level of such things
13:47 timotimo role isn't actor-related
13:48 mst no, but actors and traits came from, I think, similar groups of researches
13:48 mst because smalltalk ;)
13:48 holyghost st, I wrote a CGI script in GNU st once
13:48 timotimo probably, yeah
13:48 timotimo GNUstep?
13:48 holyghost GNU smalltalk
13:48 timotimo ah
13:49 holyghost it has a command line #!
13:49 holyghost hasbang
13:49 holyghost hashbang I mean
13:49 holyghost Then I learned some squeak, pharo and seaside smalltalk
13:50 holyghost It was based on the book ST-80 by adele
13:51 holyghost goldberg
13:52 mst ok, so, if you learn traits from smalltalk
13:52 mst those apply to perl6 and to M* OO in perl5
13:52 holyghost I misparsed Moose
13:53 holyghost I thought it was the MUD perl5 system
13:53 holyghost MOO, it is called I think
13:54 holyghost perl5 OO was full of references and such in a program I wrote
13:55 holyghost In the days of perlyroids
13:55 holyghost about 13 years ago
13:56 holyghost perlyroids was a perl GUI/adobe module  based (only for IE) game written in perl5, you could run it in your browser such as hotjava in those days
13:56 holyghost It's long gone though
13:57 holyghost I had a friend back at worldforge.org, bryce who was a perl wizard, he brought me to perl5
13:58 holyghost I adapted OO of perl5 then
13:58 holyghost It was too difficult for me to fully understand
13:58 holyghost @ISA for example has arcane features for example
13:58 holyghost like the rest of perl5 :-)
13:59 holyghost Anyway, I hope I can compile the thing tomorrow
13:59 holyghost I am working on a game for perl6, I'll post it to perlmonks.org
13:59 holyghost SDL2::Raw based
14:00 holyghost I only need to make an xpm parser to not swap buffers
14:00 holyghost e.g. png buffer to SDL2 texture
14:01 holyghost SDL2 is slow in windows though, the linux version is faster, I want to make it portable
14:01 holyghost SDL2::Raw I mean
14:01 timotimo why is the linux version faster?
14:01 timotimo that makes no sense to me
14:01 holyghost I have no idea
14:02 mst holyghost: ah, you got taught the obsolete 2000-era perl5 OO
14:02 mst holyghost: http://p3rl.org/Moose is what you'd use these days
14:03 mst holyghost: example: http://git.shadowcat.co.uk/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=s​cpubgit/DX.git;a=blob;f=lib/DX/Hypothesis.pm;h=0​131688d78a4718bd5edf70e9de869dc402c49be;hb=HEAD
14:03 Juerd Honestly, I don't even consider Moose because my code needs to run fast.
14:04 holyghost Moose looks good, it's like our OOP scheme classes
14:04 stmuk I've used SDL2::Raw on Mac and Linux and noticed no difference in speed
14:05 nine Juerd: but Moose is reasonably fast? It just comes with a huge startup penalty.
14:05 Juerd nine: Compared to Perl 6 it's fast :P
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14:08 holyghost Is the syntax of the perl6 OO system finished or may it be extended without meta-thingy ?
14:08 mst Juerd: I'm sorry? please explain how Moose is slower than the equivalent raw perl5 OO
14:08 holyghost metasyntactic evauluation I mean
14:08 mst holyghost: roughly, Moose was a port to perl5 of the original perl6 metamodel, and the current perl6 metamodel is a port back to perl6 of Moose ;)
14:08 holyghost *lol*
14:09 mst note that Moose does have significant startup overhead, which is why for fast starting scripts I wrote Moo
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14:09 Juerd mst: It was when I benchmarked it (2 years ago), mostly when it came to accessors.
14:10 Juerd If you say I did something wrong because it's easily as fast as classical Perl 5 OO, I'll take your word for it.
14:10 mst Juerd: the accessors are normally as fast as they would be if hand-written
14:10 nine Juerd: with or without __PACKAGE__->meta->make_immutable?
14:10 mst now, admittedly, perl5 sub call overhead means that's not *amazingly* fast anyway
14:11 mst nine: irrelevant
14:11 Juerd nine: Without
14:11 mst oh, Moose without ->make_immutable is "please make my program really slow"
14:11 mst however the accessors are the one thing I *wouldn't* expect to be affected by that
14:11 mst but if you didn't even get as far as ->make_immutable, you definitely didn't learn enough Moose to produce valid benchmarks, I'm afraid
14:12 timotimo if you have to reach a double-underscored allcaps thing in order to make your program behave sensibly, that sounds bad :P
14:12 mst timotimo: __PACKAGE__ is standard perl5 thing, blame larry for the name :P
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14:13 Juerd mst: If that's an important thing, I'm confused that it didn't make it to perldoc Moose :)
14:13 nine Juerd: it's in Moose::Manual and explained in Moose::Manual::BestPractices
14:14 Juerd timotimo: https://metacpan.org/pod/CLASS :)
14:14 mst Juerd: perldoc Moose has a 'new to Moose' section which says you must start with Moose::Manual
14:14 mst Juerd: which shows it in the examples
14:14 Juerd I see
14:15 mst Juerd: but, yeah, a Moose accessor will be basically the same speed as a hand written one, and if it isn't, either you did something silly that pessimised it, or there's a bug
14:15 mst either way, you should've come to #moose on irc.perl.org and asked
14:15 mst rather than just spreading FUD about perl :(
14:15 timotimo pff, having to put a million use statements at the beginning of every class :P
14:15 mst timotimo: http://p3rl.org/Import::Into solves that
14:15 nine timotimo: I think that's why Perl 6 was started ;)
14:15 Juerd mst: I've been on IRC too long to *ever* join a channel just to complain about something.
14:16 mst Juerd: so instead you've spent two years telling people to avoid one of the best parts of perl5 because it's 'slow'. I don't consider that a net improvement :P
14:16 Juerd mst: Hold your assumptions please. I believe this is the first time I ever said anything about this outside the project group.
14:17 Juerd I'm not really involved in Perl that much anymore. Haven't been to a YAPC or national workshop in years, etc.
14:17 Juerd So no, I have not been spreading FUD. If I had, you'd have noticed that :)
14:17 timotimo mst: pff, having a million modules to do exactly what you need!
14:19 Juerd mst: About irc.perl.org: my IRC box is ipv6 only.
14:19 mst Juerd: I'd still rather have fixed your mistake two years ago
14:19 mst ah, hrm, I'm not sure which of the nodes currently do ipv6
14:19 Juerd I used to be on irc.perl.org. Out of a dozen networks it's the only one I had to ditch when I moved my client to an ipv6 only box... :)
14:19 mst it was more of them, but then the upstream v6 transport for some of them started being flaky
14:20 Juerd Although I used to be in #amsterdam.pm only
14:20 mst and thereby were causing more harm than good
14:20 mst Juerd: well, if you ever write perl5 again, come onto #perl on this network and we can help you do OO competently :)
14:21 timotimo oh no, not the mst-ruled channel with all of mst's goons!
14:21 Juerd mst: I'm perfectly fine with my competence regarding classic Perl OO.
14:21 timotimo on an mst-controlled network!
14:21 mst Juerd: yeah, but that's way too much typing and opportunity to typo things :)
14:21 Juerd Too much typing? Nah.
14:22 mst I mean, the first thing that comes to my mind is - if you didn't like 'has', why are you even in here? surely you'd be happier in #banging-rocks-together ? :D
14:22 Juerd I like "has $.foo is rw;"
14:22 mst seriously, I spent like four years with no Moose to figure out what the feature set for Moo needed to be and it was horrible
14:22 mst I don't wanna go back there ever again
14:22 Juerd I dislike "has 'foo' => ( is => 'rw' );"  (if I recall the Moose syntax correctly)
14:22 mst hence why Moo fatpacks so I don't even have to treat it as a dep
14:23 mst has foo => (is => 'rw'); # is how I'd spell it, but yes
14:23 Juerd I'd actually spell that "has qw(foo is rw);"
14:24 mst personally, I mostly use http://shadow.cat/blog/matt-s-trout/do-you-copy/
14:24 nine That's actually only 2 characters more than Perl 6
14:26 Juerd In any event I don't think I'll ever write the "modern" Perl 5, if that means Moose, unless I happen to get involved in a project that already does.
14:26 spider-mario weird,
14:26 spider-mario running make install after building rakudo, I get:
14:26 spider-mario Could not find CompUnit::Repository::Staging
14:26 Juerd I'd rather wait for Perl 6 to become production ready
14:26 spider-mario is that a known issue?
14:26 nine spider-mario: it isn't
14:27 nine spider-mario: what rakudo version?
14:27 spider-mario 2016.07
14:27 spider-mario 2016.06 was fine
14:27 spider-mario I can try and bisect the issue
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14:27 mst Juerd: that's fair enough. I've been addicted to it for years now so
14:27 timotimo spider-mario: you probably need to run configure.pl again
14:27 nine spider-mario: do you have a lib/CompUnit::Repository::Staging?
14:28 spider-mario timotimo: I did, it’s a fresh build
14:28 mst Juerd: oh, minor note, Moo uses Class::XSAccessor if installed where possible
14:28 mst Juerd: so "has foo => (is => 'rw');" gets you an XS accessor and is actually rather more performant than writing your own
14:28 spider-mario nine: there is one in the source directory, but it seems to look for it in /usr/share/perl6
14:28 Juerd Oh, that's another thing. I write perl5 for tiny perls where even 'strict.pm' is not shipped by default.
14:28 mst aha
14:28 Juerd So I have to at least keep up with raw perl skills :D
14:29 nine spider-mario: can you tell me more about how exactly you install rakudo?
14:29 Juerd (Note that this is why in Net::MQTT::Simple, use strict is commented out!)
14:29 spider-mario I am actually packaging it
14:29 spider-mario the build script runs Configure.pl --prefix=/usr --backends=moar
14:29 spider-mario then make,
14:29 Juerd mst: Haven't tried Moo at all yet.
14:29 spider-mario and finally make install DESTDIR=(some packaging directory)
14:29 mst Juerd: lots of my code is designed to run given only a full basic perl5 install and a single script, hence Moo and App::FatPacker
14:30 mst but I don't generally have to go smaller than that
14:30 mst Moo is basically the Moose surface syntax with no metaprotocol
14:30 Juerd Sounds perfectly usable
14:30 mst but it fakes having been a Moose class all along if you point Moose at it
14:30 dalek doc: d9a902c | Altai-man++ | doc/Language/operators.pod6:
14:30 dalek doc: Make hyper operators searchable
14:30 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/d9a902c8e5
14:30 mst which means you can port thing Moose -> Moo and things subclassing it using Moose don't even notice
14:30 mst I was kinda proud of making that work ;)
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14:37 spider-mario okay, bisect in progress
14:37 nine spider-mario: no need to
14:37 spider-mario ah
14:38 mst Juerd: anyway, sorry for my slightly exothermic response, but I've been hearing 'moose is slow' for a lot of years and it's almost always (1) startup time (2) forgot make_immutable (3) did something that would've been slow if you'd done it by hand but hadn't thought about it
14:38 mst Juerd: and there was lots of actual FUD for quite a while, so it makes me twitch
14:38 nine spider-mario: trying to reproduce it here as I actually thought I had fixed this
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14:41 nine spider-mario: ok, I see it here
14:41 spider-mario cool
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14:55 nine This is most frustrating :( I've already had a fix for the Staging issue. But when I cleaned up my changes and put them into distinct commits it looked like I don't actually need this particular change, so I removed it.
14:55 nine I've got no idea why it did not explode in my tests as I did exactly the same as the failing test now.
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15:00 nine spider-mario: please try again with this patch: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​d1604b5c8e78c73b2fbf6490f51a33232ee64341
15:03 spider-mario the patch applies cleanly but it still doesn’t seem to work
15:04 spider-mario wait
15:04 spider-mario not sure I applied it correctly
15:04 spider-mario let me try again
15:04 spider-mario (sorry)
15:05 * holyghost is going to prepare himself a noodles-provencale (own mix)
15:07 spider-mario cool, it worked
15:07 spider-mario thanks, nine :)
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15:52 ugexe m: sub foo($message, Str :@bar) { say $message }; foo("xxx") # what is the rational for performing a type check on an optional parameter that was not passed?
15:52 camelia rakudo-moar d1604b: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding @bar; expected Positional[Str] but got Array ($[])␤  in sub foo at <tmp> line 1␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
15:56 gfldex m: sub foo($message, Str @bar?) { say $message }; foo("xxx")
15:56 camelia rakudo-moar d1604b: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding @bar; expected Positional[Str] but got Array ($[])␤  in sub foo at <tmp> line 1␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
15:56 gfldex ugexe: that's a bug
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15:57 ugexe m: my Array[Empty] @a;
15:57 camelia rakudo-moar d1604b: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤An exception occurred while parameterizing Array␤at <tmp>:1␤Exception details:␤  5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling ␤  Parameter 't' requires a type object of type Slip, but an object instance …»
15:58 ugexe or just `say Array[Empty]`
15:58 ugexe gfldex: do you know if its a known bug?
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16:02 moritz Empty is an instance, not a type
16:03 moritz so the error message is correct, IMHO
16:03 moritz m: say Empty.^name
16:03 camelia rakudo-moar d1604b: OUTPUT«Slip␤»
16:06 gfldex ugexe: i would have to query RT
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16:46 gfldex löliblöggedagain https://gfldex.wordpress.com/​2016/07/17/disecting-subsets/
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17:02 stmuk http://pl6anet.org/drop/rak​udo-star-2016.07-RC0.tar.gz
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17:27 ugexe hmm why doesnt bisectable work with private messages?
17:28 ugexe bisect: https://gist.github.com/ugexe/7​ce08d3ad4cfd36f275c437ba9713471
17:28 bisectable ugexe: It looks like a URL, but mime type is 'text/html; charset=utf-8' while I was expecting 'text/plain; charset=utf-8'. I can only understand raw links, sorry.
17:28 ugexe bisect: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/ugexe/7ce​08d3ad4cfd36f275c437ba9713471/raw/e1deedcbc1​20a53757d8dd78602bb8bf51b21c3b/gistfile1.txt
17:29 bisectable ugexe: Successfully fetched the code from the provided URL.
17:29 bisectable ugexe: bisect log: https://gist.github.com/e0a2​8162b19f601616aa8776f24dd027
17:29 bisectable ugexe: (2016-07-04) https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5581b24
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17:49 Ben_Goldberg m: :{ 0 => 42, "0" => 43 }{0}.say;
17:49 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«42␤»
17:49 Ben_Goldberg m: :{ 0 => 42, "0" => 43 }{"0"}.say;
17:49 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«43␤»
17:49 Ben_Goldberg m: :{ 0 => 42, "0" => 43 }{0, "0"}.say;
17:49 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«(42 43)␤»
17:49 Ben_Goldberg m: { 0 => 42, "0" => 43 }{0, "0"}.say;
17:49 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«(43 43)␤»
17:51 Ben_Goldberg m: for { 1 => 42, 2 => 43 } -> $_ { .say }
17:51 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«1 => 42␤2 => 43␤»
17:51 gfldex m: :{ 0 => 42, "0" => 43 }.^name.say
17:51 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«Hash[Mu,Any]␤»
17:51 gfldex m: { 0 => 42, "0" => 43 }.^name.say
17:51 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«Hash␤»
17:55 gfldex what exactly is :{} ?
17:55 FROGGS_ an object hash
17:56 FROGGS_ where the keys can be other things than only Str's
17:57 gfldex ENOINDEX
17:59 dalek doc: eea8b55 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Hash.pod6:
17:59 dalek doc: index object hash and :{}
17:59 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/eea8b55d46
18:01 Ben_Goldberg m: for { 1 => 42, 2 => 43 } -> [.key, .value] { .say }
18:01 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Expression needs parens to avoid gobbling block␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3for { 1 => 42, 2 => 43 }7⏏5 -> [.key, .value] { .say }␤Missing block (apparently claimed by expression)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3for { 1 => 42, 2 => 43 } …»
18:07 parabolize gfldex: its documented 2 headings above that as well: https://docs.perl6.org/type/Hash#Non-string_keys
18:08 gfldex parabolize: we don't deal well with duplicated index entries. So it's better to index at where it is explained in detail.
18:08 gfldex or better html does not deal well with duplicated anchors
18:09 gfldex a proper typesetting system would check if the anchors are on the same physical page and only generate one index entry
18:14 Ben_Goldberg m: my %h = 1 => 42, 2 => 43; for %h -> [.key, .value] { .say }
18:14 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Missing block␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3my %h = 1 => 42, 2 => 43; for %h -> [7⏏5.key, .value] { .say }␤    expecting any of:␤        formal parameter␤»
18:15 Ben_Goldberg m: my %h = 1 => 42, 2 => 43; for %h { .say }
18:15 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«1 => 42␤2 => 43␤»
18:19 Ben_Goldberg m: my %h = 1 => 42, 2 => 43; for %h -> (:key($foo), :value($bar)) { say "$foo ⇒ $bar" }
18:19 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«1 ⇒ 42␤2 ⇒ 43␤»
18:20 gfldex m: my %h = 1 => 42, 2 => 43; for %h.kv -> $foo, $bar { say "$foo ⇒ $bar" }
18:20 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«1 ⇒ 42␤2 ⇒ 43␤»
18:21 gfldex hash deconstruction is very useful in routine calls tho
18:23 Ben_Goldberg AFAICS, Destructuring parameters are solely and exclusively documented in https://docs.perl6.org/type/Sig​nature#Destructuring_Parameters ... there ought to be more links to this and examples of it.
18:24 gfldex there are plenty of links to /type/Signature but I do agree that many readers wont follow them.
18:26 gfldex $ grep '/type/Signature' html/links.txt | uniq | wc -l
18:26 gfldex 39
18:26 Ben_Goldberg I think at least the doc for class Hash, in the part "Looping over hash keys and values" should show an example which uses destructuring instead of .kv .
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18:26 gfldex but then, the docs are not the to be written book called "Learning to program in Perl 6"
18:28 Ben_Goldberg Are you somehow worried that Perl 6 will be called "the language with too much documentation" ? :)
18:29 gfldex i am worried about the maintainability of the docs. Every time something is changed or added (every Christmas I hope) we have to check the docs. Also somebody has to read all that stuff. If you render all .pods into one big html-file it's close to 500 pages A4 already.
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18:32 gfldex $ cat `find doc/ -iname '*.pod6'` | wc -l
18:32 gfldex 45597
18:34 Ben_Goldberg On doc.perl6.org, I notice that each class's documentation has one or more sections, "routines supplied by class X" where X is a superclass... if you removed these sections, you could make the html versions much much smaller.
18:34 Ben_Goldberg Especially when there's so much redundancy.
18:36 Ben_Goldberg I think we should separate out those parts into some small common files, which in turn get pulled into the html *on demand*, in the user's browser.
18:36 dalek doc: a1ff75d | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Hash.pod6:
18:36 dalek doc: link from Hash to destructuring in Signature
18:36 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/a1ff75d8ba
18:36 gfldex the one page version does not contain any auto generated html
18:40 gfldex btw. if we rendered it to LaTeX it would be much more then 500 pages because sections are not allowed to begin on a left page. That and a few more rules lead to planty of blank or halve empty pages.
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18:47 freezerburnv Is it possible to define a custom ACCEPTS method on a class?
18:47 gfldex freezerburnv: yes
18:47 psch m: class A { method ACCEPTS { say "sure" } }; say "foo" ~~ A; say 5 ~~ A
18:47 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«Too many positionals passed; expected 1 argument but got 2␤  in method ACCEPTS at <tmp> line 1␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
18:47 psch aw
18:47 psch but you of course need a param
18:48 psch m: class A { method ACCEPTS($) { say "sure" } }; say "foo" ~~ A; say 5 ~~ A
18:48 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«sure␤True␤sure␤True␤»
18:48 freezerburnv gfldex, Alright. Well I'm running into an interesting case where I theoretically should have a working ACCEPTS method, and it's returning False, but what the code that uses it is getting is True
18:48 freezerburnv I can put up a gist
18:50 psch (gisting long non-working code)++
18:50 timotimo can you make sure it's running the ACCEPTS method you're expecting it to?
18:51 gfldex also: https://packages.debian.org/search?searc​hon=contents&amp;keywords=gist-paste&amp​;mode=path&amp;suite=stable&amp;arch=any
18:52 freezerburnv https://gist.github.com/anonymous​/e6859b1ff63fcdda0853098ff5b9571a
18:52 freezerburnv timotimo, It is, I have output in the ACCEPTS method
18:52 psch m: https://gist.github.com/anonymous​/e6859b1ff63fcdda0853098ff5b9571a
18:52 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«True␤True␤»
18:52 freezerburnv At least in my code, in the gist I don't
18:52 psch freezerburnv: looks like the gist works on camelia?  you're expecting True, right?
18:53 freezerburnv psch, THe first should be true, the second should be False
18:53 freezerburnv bar != foo in the second one
18:53 psch oh, i didn't look at the gist yet, sorry
18:53 timotimo m: say "foo" ~~ "bar"
18:53 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«False␤»
18:53 timotimo oh
18:53 timotimo hehe
18:53 psch m: sub f { return False and die }; f
18:53 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: ( no output )
18:53 timotimo the and is looser than return
18:53 psch timotimo++ :)
18:54 timotimo so you've got "(return Blah) and $foo ~~ $bar"
18:54 freezerburnv timotimo, -_- OH
18:54 freezerburnv That was not something I was expecting
18:54 timotimo like psch mentioned, you usually use and or or for statement-level control flow-ish things
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18:55 travis-ci Doc build errored. Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer 'link from Hash to destructuring in Signature'
18:55 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/145388339 https://github.com/perl6/doc/com​pare/eea8b55d469f...a1ff75d8ba51
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18:55 freezerburnv timotimo, I"m used to doing things like that in other languages. Woops. Is there an analogous thing that Perl6 can do without needing to throw parens around that expression?
18:55 psch freezerburnv: infix:<&&>?
18:55 gfldex that travis error is likely a github timeout. Github is pretty low for me for the last 2 days.
18:56 timotimo yeah, just use the regular operators instead of the wordy ones
18:57 freezerburnv psch, Of course, should have known Perl6 would have both. I think I saw 'and' used somewhere and just automatically assumed it was Python-esque with its operators, probably because of my experience with Python and seeing Perl6 use odd operators at times for things
18:57 freezerburnv (like using +| or whatever it was for bitwise or instead of the normal |)
18:57 psch freezerburnv: well, we have +| for numeric bitwise, because we have ~| for stringy bitwise :)
18:58 psch freezerburnv: it's really just the extension of what perl5 did with eq vs ==
18:58 freezerburnv psch, ...stringy bitwise? Wha?
18:58 psch m: say "a" ~| "\c[COMBINING GRAVE ACCENT]"
18:58 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«͡␤»
18:59 freezerburnv psch, I realize the logic behind it, it just threw me for a loop the first time I realized that | was now junctions and a new operator was bitwise or, instead of reversing them. Makes sense though, cause junction or is probably more common than bitwise
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19:03 dalek doc: 234014f | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/traps.pod6:
19:03 dalek doc: doc trappy and/or etc
19:03 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/234014ff8b
19:04 gfldex freezerburnv++ # for asking the right question
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19:21 travis-ci Doc build passed. Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer 'doc trappy and/or etc'
19:21 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/145391691 https://github.com/perl6/doc/com​pare/a1ff75d8ba51...234014ff8bbd
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19:38 dalek doc: a98df89 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod6:
19:38 dalek doc: link from loose operators to traps
19:38 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/a98df89c61
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20:15 Ben_Goldberg m: say( "a" ~| "c" );
20:15 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«c␤»
20:16 Ben_Goldberg m: say( "a" ~| "b" );
20:16 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«c␤»
20:16 TEttinger m: say("aaa" ~| "bcd");
20:16 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«cce␤»
20:17 Ben_Goldberg Why doesn't https://docs.perl6.org/language/traps#Junctions mention ~|, ~&, ~^ ?
20:21 Frameless Ben_Goldberg: because I didn't think of it. PR's are very welcome :)
20:22 Frameless Ben_Goldberg: actually, the real reason seems to be that they aren't in Operators doc either https://docs.perl6.org/language/operators
20:25 ugexe tbrowder: are you aware `npq` is a typo?
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20:29 tbrowder Yes, and that's my complaint.  It's a dyslexic thing (reversing a pair of characters) that gets worse as I age, but I expect the error to be caught during build time, not run time.  It makes my development efforts much slower than it should be!
20:31 tbrowder The bug report is probably not very clear--I'll add some words. Thanks for pointing that out, ugexe.
20:34 TEttinger tbrowder: just curious, but have you ever tried the slightly-tweaked fonts that avoid symmetry in similar letters and change certain letter shapes?
20:34 moritz tbrowder: if you use a somewhat intelligent editor, you can configure it to hilight `npq` as a typo
20:34 TEttinger I've seen them mentioned in regards to user style sheets
20:35 moritz tbrowder: namespace lookups are runtime by definition; you're allowed to create them in an EVAL and reference them where a compiler has know chance of knowing that you'll later create them dynamically
20:35 moritz that makes typo detection at compile time basically impossible
20:36 moritz and since regular, non-namspaced function lookups are compile time, its kinda important to keep this escape valve to allow some dynamic features
20:36 * moritz should read the bug report before assuming too much
20:37 moritz which issue is that? I can't find it in the backlog
20:37 moritz (at least not in the last few pages of backlog)
20:42 lizmat m: foo::bar  # note this is also runtime
20:42 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«Could not find symbol '&bar'␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
20:43 timotimo right
20:44 lizmat although one could argue it *could* be made a compile time error ?
20:44 tbrowder The "npq" as alphabetical order has strong mental attachments and is hard to overcome, but I guess I'll learn to deal with it. Thanks all.  I'll close the issue.
20:45 tbrowder moritz: I'm using emacs, know how I can flag the typo?
20:45 moritz tbrowder: dunno, I'm not an emacs user
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20:46 moritz lizmat: I don't think it can be a compile time rror
20:46 geekosaur https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/AutoCorrection
20:46 moritz m: use MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL; EVAL q[ module Foo { our bar() { say 24 }}]; Foo::bar()
20:46 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Type 'bar' is not declared␤at /home/camelia/EVAL_0:1␤------> 3 module Foo { our bar7⏏5() { say 24 }}␤Malformed our␤at /home/camelia/EVAL_0:1␤------> 3 module Foo { our7⏏5 bar() { say 24 }}␤␤»
20:46 geekosaur you can define "npq" as an abbrev that gets corrected to "nqp", or configure flyspell to highlight it as an error
20:46 moritz m: use MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL; EVAL q[ module Foo { our sub bar() { say 24 }}]; Foo::bar()
20:46 camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«24␤»
20:47 moritz this is a perfectly legal Perl 6 program, and a reason you can't compile-time catch missing namespace lookups at compile time
20:50 tbrowder Issue is closed.
20:50 lizmat moritz++
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21:05 * TimToady waves from Roma
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22:00 neuron Hi
22:00 neuron I have my class Object is repr<CPPStruct> { ... }
22:00 neuron $a = Object.new(...);
22:01 neuron now is there a way to have a method of the Object class to be called if I try to convert it to bool?
22:01 neuron For example in say "yes" if $a;
22:02 timotimo sure, just give it the Bool method and don't mark it "native"
22:02 timotimo at least i think that's how
22:02 neuron Ah, _that_ simple?
22:03 timotimo i think the cppstruct doesn't make a difference here
22:03 timotimo but *shrug* i never tried to use it yet :S
22:07 neuron Many thans timotimo!
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22:08 timotimo m: use NativeCall; my class Foo is repr<CPPStruct> { method Bool { say "Aye" } }; say so Foo.new
22:08 camelia rakudo-moar 242baf: OUTPUT«Aye␤True␤»
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22:18 neuron So, how does p6 know that Bool method is for converting to Bool? Is it becase of the upper case letter in front of method name?
22:20 gfldex neuron: gen/moar/m-CORE.setting:9718:multi sub prefix:<so>(Mu \a) { a.Bool }
22:20 timotimo it's a convention that's upheld in different parts of the compiler and its core library
22:20 timotimo when you have a coercive type, for example, it'll call the method of that name
22:21 konobi ha! just had a thought about using terralang along with lua-Coat (ie: moose) and IOC to make a configurable NQP backend
22:21 yoleaux 16 Jul 2016 11:42Z <pmurias> konobi: using v8-profiler and loading the profiles in chrome turned out the thing I needed for profiling
22:22 konobi ah, cool
22:22 konobi yoleaux: tell pmurias were you able to get the flamegraph representations?
22:23 neuron gfldex, timotimo: Ah, I see. Nice convention. Than you
22:24 konobi bah, can't remember the syntax for leaving notes
22:24 gfldex .tell konobi that's how it's done
22:24 yoleaux gfldex: I'll pass your message to konobi.
22:25 konobi .tell pmurias were you able to get the flamegraph representations from the chrome devtools?
22:25 yoleaux 22:24Z <gfldex> konobi: that's how it's done
22:25 yoleaux konobi: I'll pass your message to pmurias.
22:32 dalek doc: e8d31be | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | doc/Language/5to6-perlfunc.pod6:
22:32 dalek doc: 「state」 is documented
22:32 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/e8d31be1f3
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23:24 stevieb any chance someone could take a look at http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=1167927 and see if they can help?
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23:43 ugexe m: my @a = 1,2,3,4; say <<a b {"b".succ} @a>> # Why isn't @a interpolated?
23:43 camelia rakudo-moar 242baf: OUTPUT«(a b c @a)␤»
23:44 ugexe sure {@a} but its not required for $var
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23:52 timotimo maybe because you should [] it?
23:53 gfldex m: my @a = 1,2,3,4; say "1@a2"
23:53 camelia rakudo-moar 242baf: OUTPUT«1@a2␤»
23:53 gfldex m: my @a = 1,2,3,4; say "1@a[]2"
23:53 camelia rakudo-moar 242baf: OUTPUT«11 2 3 42␤»
23:53 gfldex ugexe: <> and «» behave in the same way as '' and ""
23:55 gfldex ugexe: see http://design.perl6.org/S02.html#Relati​onship_between_%3C%3E_and_%C2%AB%C2%BB
23:55 ugexe ah. ive always made a habit of using {...} for all interpolation inside "" so I didnt realize
23:56 gfldex and asking for the zen-slice on @-interolations is because of "easy@email.com" to be much more common then actual @a interpolation
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23:57 ugexe i think i've known and forgot about this more than once

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