Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2016-11-07

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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01:50 seatek if for nothing else, i'm thankful for perl's flexibility so that i can keep my editor's syntax highlighting working
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02:47 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
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04:17 llfourn_ m: say (Str andthen .uc orelse Str.new("derp")) # this returns a Block!?!?
04:17 camelia rakudo-moar 1c425f: OUTPUT«-> ;; $_ is raw { #`(Block|63629712) ... }␤»
04:18 llfourn_ m: say (Str andthen .uc orelse "foo") # more golfed
04:18 camelia rakudo-moar 1c425f: OUTPUT«-> ;; $_ is raw { #`(Block|81391040) ... }␤»
04:21 geekosaur andthen and orelse are thunk-y, I think?
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04:21 geekosaur hm, guess orelse isn't, but andthen is a bit magic
04:21 llfourn_ geekosaur: they topicalize but that doesn't mean the result of the expression should be a block right?
04:22 llfourn_ shou
04:22 llfourn_ mistype
04:22 * llfourn_ goes to rakudobug
04:23 llfourn_ m: say (Str andthen .uc orelse "foo")() # wonder what block it is?
04:23 camelia rakudo-moar 1c425f: OUTPUT«Too few positionals passed; expected 1 argument but got 0␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
04:23 llfourn_ m: say (Str andthen .uc orelse "foo")("wee") # heh
04:23 camelia rakudo-moar 1c425f: OUTPUT«foo␤»
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07:10 seatek m: my @f = 1..10; @f.map: { when 5 { .say }; default { say 'no'}}
07:10 camelia rakudo-moar 1c425f: OUTPUT«no␤no␤no␤no␤5␤no␤no␤no␤no␤no␤»
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07:19 brrt anybody up for some good old-fashioned advocacy? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12888784
07:19 samcv seatek, i'm happy i have my perl 5 bot mostly converted over to perl 6 using promises and supplies i am so happy
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07:19 samcv and added perl 6 eval functionality ( i have only perl 5 before) so i can try and convince more people to use perl 6
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07:20 seatek samcv: :)
07:20 samcv perl 6 is one of the only language i've learned where the more i learn about it the more i like it.
07:20 samcv usually you have 1st then middle impressions of a language but as you go further you get into limitations and annoyances
07:21 samcv i am convinced more and more every day that perl 6 is the language of the future
07:21 samcv anybody who says "oh perl 6, didn't they start that 15 years ago, it probably isn't that great", is talking smack
07:22 samcv so thank you to anybody here working on perl 6. you have my greatest thanks for your effort
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07:23 samcv seatek, i took my perl 5 bot's section that runs when somebody speaks ( it's like 1800 lines! ) and converted it into a long running program
07:23 samcv using proc async and messages to channel get passed to that perl 5 long running script accepting stdin, and so i retained 95% of my features, and am now working on porting them over
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07:46 seatek brrt: put in a couple comments - completely honest ones too! :)
07:47 seatek samcv: sweet! hey, i'm curious -- does it seem to be pretty stable running for a long time?
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07:54 ifdog Excuse me,but is there any method on an object to see all members in it?
07:55 ifdog just like 'dir()' in Python..
07:56 seatek you can do a $obj.^methods to get a list of methods in the object
07:57 seatek ^attributes shows attributes i think
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07:58 ifdog thanks, this is just what I want.
07:59 seatek sure
08:00 ifdog However ^attributes dies with a 'Method gist not found...'
08:02 seatek m: class D { has $.at; method m() { say 0..2 }}; say D.^methods ; say D.^attributes;
08:02 camelia rakudo-moar 1c425f: OUTPUT«(m at)␤(Mu $!at)␤»
08:04 brrt seatek: thanks, I guess :-) I tend to stay away from HN discussions myself
08:05 seatek brrt: I do too. but lots of people seem to have this bizarre bias without even really trying. i kinda did myself even.
08:05 seatek brrt: so i feel a little obligated. ;)
08:08 brrt well, thanks for your efforts :-)
08:09 seatek i think people just aren't used to having to think. perl makes you think. it's not just cookie cutters, though there are plenty of those.
08:09 seatek or maybe it's more like we have a bagillion cookie cutters
08:17 ifdog m: my $a=1;say $a.^attributes;
08:17 camelia rakudo-moar 1c425f: OUTPUT«No such method 'gist' for invocant of type 'BOOTSTRAPATTR'␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
08:19 seatek ifdog: $a's being  used as just a variable there -- not an object, so it has no attributes i imagine
08:20 seatek m: class C { has $.a; }; say C.^attributes;
08:20 camelia rakudo-moar 1c425f: OUTPUT«(Mu $!a)␤»
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08:20 seatek m: class C { has $.a; }; my $c = C.new; say $c.^attributes;
08:20 camelia rakudo-moar 1c425f: OUTPUT«(Mu $!a)␤»
08:20 ifdog err,yes thats the difference
08:21 seatek yeppers :)
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08:35 arnsholt m: my $a = 1; say($a.^attributes.map: { .name })
08:35 camelia rakudo-moar 1c425f: OUTPUT«($!value)␤»
08:36 seatek yeah kinda an object ;)
08:36 arnsholt The problem was that integers are low-level enough that you start to run into implementation-level details
08:38 arnsholt Attribute (the standard class for attributes) is a Perl 6 class. But to bootstrap things far enough up that we can construct the class, we need an interim attribute class
08:38 arnsholt That's BOOTSTRAPATTR, which is in NQP, not Perl 6
08:38 seatek i've heard so many times about how everything's an object, and it's imaging stuff like that, that makes me insane. i don't know how it was managed to be done ;)
08:41 seatek it seems so convoluted just to get a dam integer! :)
08:43 seatek what's weird is, when you're going to say something like his $a... well, that's not an object - that's a variable. i mean, it's a lie. but it isn't. but it is.
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08:56 masak aloha, #perl6
08:57 DrForr Mornin'.
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08:57 masak yesterday's success: removing a fossilized type from 007
08:58 masak you know that feeling when you look at some code and go "hm, this class doesn't actually *do* anything"?
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08:58 masak well, it was like that, except a lot of things still used the class and relied on it, despite it being useless
08:58 masak ...six refactoring steps later... ta-daa!
08:59 ufobat good morning
08:59 DrForr yay!
09:03 arnsholt masak: Sounds like a yak well shaved! =)
09:04 masak it was a remnant from the early days when 007 had first-class blocks. the idea went away, except not really on the type level.
09:06 El_Che refactoring: because we can!
09:06 El_Che :)
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09:08 brrt one of the fun bits of having a personal project :-)
09:08 masak one measure of success is "8 files changed, 50 insertions(+), 94 deletions(-)" -- that's a net 44 lines deleted.
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09:09 El_Che s/# TODO: implement this better\n//g
09:09 El_Che fixed!
09:10 arnsholt masak: Oh, I love those patches!
09:10 El_Che do it 4 times and DigitalOcean sends you a free t-shirt!
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09:11 arnsholt My advisor thought it was quite amusing that I was so happy about those
09:11 arnsholt Let's just say we had differing opinions on the question of technical debt =)
09:11 DrForr Less code written means less code to read.
09:11 El_Che less bugs
09:11 DrForr That too.
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09:18 MARTIMM o/
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09:20 MARTIMM I've a question about the range of numbers of type Num, (Fat)Rat Int etc. There is this method Range which shows -Inf..Inf most of the time.
09:21 [ptc] \o
09:21 MARTIMM Wondering what the highest number is below Inf and lowest above -Inf
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09:24 seatek i think Inf - 1 is still Inf...
09:25 [ptc] m: say(Inf - 1)
09:25 camelia rakudo-moar 1c425f: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
09:25 [ptc] looks that way
09:26 [ptc] m: say(-Inf + 1)
09:26 camelia rakudo-moar 1c425f: OUTPUT«-Inf␤»
09:26 seatek m: say (-Inf + Inf);
09:26 camelia rakudo-moar 1c425f: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
09:26 seatek hehe
09:27 geekosaur you can check (on linux, chase down the insane includes from) <limits.h> for MIN_DBL and MAX_DBL
09:27 seatek oh that's the boring REAL answer ;)
09:29 El_Che if you asked last week I would have said "warm and sunny". I was in Rome :)
09:29 El_Che now it's back cold and rainy again :)
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09:46 masak MARTIMM: for the Num type, there's a highest representable number below Inf
09:46 masak MARTIMM: for the Int type, there isn't, since Int is arbitrary-precision
09:47 masak you can have as large an Int as your computer memory and available processing power will allow you -- there's no upper limit
09:49 masak m: say 1e308
09:49 camelia rakudo-moar 1c425f: OUTPUT«1e+308␤»
09:49 masak this is the largest Num below Inf I can get Rakudo to represent.
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09:52 geekosaur 1.7976931348623157081e+308 on x86_64
09:53 geekosaur (and probably x86)
09:54 masak I expected it to be something like that, but the cutoff in Rakudo was at exactly 1.000e308
09:54 masak maybe some artificial limit has been put in somewhere for safety reasons
09:54 masak m: say 1.7976931348623157081e200 * 1e108
09:54 camelia rakudo-moar 1c425f: OUTPUT«1.79769313486232e+308␤»
09:54 masak a-ha :)
09:55 masak so Rakudo can represent them, just not with scientific-notation number literals
09:55 masak I... would be tempted to call that a bug.
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10:50 MARTIMM *: thanks for your answers
10:54 MARTIMM masak: So for Rat and FatRat there isn't a limit either because they are made out of two Ints, am I right?
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11:03 MARTIMM m:Rat.new( 10**5000, 187234687234876)
11:04 MARTIMM m:say Rat.new( 10**5000, 187234687234876)
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11:36 moritz m: say Rat.new( 10**5000, 187234687234876)
11:36 camelia rakudo-moar 0b9736: OUTPUT«53408907012275612993572890276050045275​651672202363004670164492090562496871837871498​298860050251035732696462014259066152303753301​926921476129112718161557966067932226478036894​807555644297792750816047401832813438287298287​14287608208531273558371203898260609761…»
11:37 DrForr m: say [*] ^200
11:37 camelia rakudo-moar 0b9736: OUTPUT«0␤»
11:38 DrForr m: say [*] 2..200
11:38 camelia rakudo-moar 0b9736: OUTPUT«78865786736479050355236321393218506229​513597768717326329474253324435944996340334292​030428401198462390417721213891963883025764279​024263710506192662495282993111346285727076331​723739698894392244562145166424025403329186413​12274282948532775242424075739032403212…»
11:46 * masak submits the "can't represent 1.7e308 as a literal" rakudobug
11:47 [ptc] masak++
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11:50 masak have to take the few-and-far-between chances nowadays to submit bugs :P
11:51 lizmat masak: do you miss the old days of 10+ bugs / day ?
11:52 masak I'd have to say "yes and no" to that :)
11:52 masak m: say all("yes", "no")
11:52 camelia rakudo-moar ce85ba: OUTPUT«all(yes, no)␤»
11:53 lizmat m: say "yes"&"no"
11:53 camelia rakudo-moar ce85ba: OUTPUT«all(yes, no)␤»
11:53 moritz German has a very nice word for that: "jein"
11:53 masak so does Swedish: "nja"
11:53 moritz and a somewhat popular song about it too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcV7VN3l3bY
11:54 lizmat ah, fettes brot  :-)
11:54 masak but in Swedish it ends up taking on a meaning of "I suspect you wanted me to answer 'yes', so mixing the two words is my way of breaking it to you nicely that the answer is actually 'no'"
11:55 masak kind of similar to the "...about that" of The Office fame
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11:58 * grondilu received a very nasty fishing attempt for my Yahoo! account.  Be careful everyone.
11:58 masak phishing is scary, yes
11:59 grondilu This one almost got me as it was very short and simple.  Kind of smart.
12:01 masak "Assuming they could solve the problem of the headers, the spam of the future will probably look something like this: 'Hey there.  Thought you should check out the following: <url>' because that is about as much sales pitch as content-based filtering will leave the spammer room to make." -- http://www.paulgraham.com/spam.html
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12:09 * TimToady waves from LHR
12:09 grondilu "LHR"?
12:10 TimToady London Heathrow
12:10 grondilu ok
12:10 masak is there an actual row of heaths nearby?
12:10 TimToady on our way to .pt
12:10 TimToady sure looked like it on final :)
12:10 bjz joined #perl6
12:10 masak :)
12:11 grondilu are you there for hollidays or work/conference?
12:11 TimToady though I understand they've finally (after about 20 years of dithering) decided to tear up some of the heaths and rows to build a 3rd runway
12:11 TimToady Web Summit
12:12 TimToady not that I know much about either of those
12:12 moritz masak: re your spam quote, the other thing they need to convince me (at least) is a credible sounding sender name
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12:12 grondilu talking about Web, what's your take on webassembly?  Don't you think the team should look into it as an important potential target?
12:15 masak grondilu: that would be something to talk to pmurias about, methinks.
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12:16 masak grondilu: I think pmurias considered it, but decided not to, at least at present.
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12:17 grondilu pmurias works on the javascript port, but really I believe webassembly should concern the MoarVM team.
12:17 masak not sure I agree with that, but sounds interesting. maybe ask on #moarvm, then? :)
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12:21 grondilu I've talked about wasm with pmurias, I think he rejected it at a time wasm was still very tied to javascript.  It's not anymore.  There is a toolchain from C/C++ now.   So it would make sense to have MoarVM target wasm directly.  MoarVM would just have to ensure it can be compiled with the experimental branch of clang.
12:22 grondilu and apparently it can already be compiled with the main branch
12:22 masak last I read from pmurias, it's going well with the js backend. I'm still looking forward to be able to run Perl 6 in the browser in any form.
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12:24 grondilu it will be nice when the js backend works, but then some time will be spent to improve it.  I'm afraid this time will be wasted.  It may be best to focus on wasm asap.
12:25 moritz how well do wasm applications integrate with existing js applications and frameworks?
12:26 grondilu js will eventually also generate wasm, so different applications should be able to communicate well.
12:27 moritz that doesn't sound very concrete
12:29 grondilu are you asking how easy it would be for a wasm code to call a js application?  If this js application can generate wasm, then it's easy, isn't it?
12:31 grondilu I mean I know there is "assembly" in "webassembly" but still it has things like "modules", which are "distributable, loadable, and executable"
12:31 grondilu http://webassembly.org/docs/modules/
12:32 grondilu so if your js application or framework generates a wasm module, you're good to go I presume.
12:40 masak m: say -0e0
12:40 camelia rakudo-moar bb662f: OUTPUT«-0␤»
12:40 masak m: say 0e0 == -0e0; say 0e0 === -0e0
12:40 camelia rakudo-moar bb662f: OUTPUT«True␤True␤»
12:41 masak I think we have an RT open somewhere opining that the second one comparison ought to be False
12:41 masak which is funny, because it's the *opposite* of the expected behavior of NaN
12:41 masak m: say NaN == NaN; say NaN === NaN
12:41 camelia rakudo-moar bb662f: OUTPUT«False␤True␤»
12:41 masak ...which works already
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12:51 randomuser02323 hello?
12:51 masak is this thing on?
12:51 masak *screeching feedback in loudspeakers*
12:52 randomuser02323 hi, how much of perl5 should one know before diving into perl6?
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12:52 El_Che randomuser02323: zero
12:52 masak randomuser02323: it's possible to start with zero prior Perl 5 knowledge
12:52 randomuser02323 cool :)
12:52 El_Che randomuser02323: however, learning perl 5 is never wasted
12:52 masak especially not if you're going to do Perl 5 development too ;)
12:53 masak randomuser02323: the languages are a bit confusingly named. they're more two (related) languages than versions 5 and 6 of one language.
12:54 masak learning one might increase your understanding of the other -- it did for me -- but focusing on just one of them is totally fine, too
12:54 masak we're biased, but we recommend Perl 6 ;)
12:55 El_Che randomuser02323: I enjoy both. In some cases 1 is more appropiate to the situation than the other
12:55 El_Che randomuser02323: and as masak says, I conder them to be different languages of the same family.
12:55 masak "sister languages"
12:56 El_Che or "bro-laguages" if you're male chaivinistic :)
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12:59 randomuser02323 masak, el_che, :) thanks! I'll start out  with perl6 then!
13:00 masak randomuser02323: let us know how it goes!
13:00 masak pro tip: asking things on the channel has a lot of beneficial effects, both for $learner and for @crowd
13:01 DrForr Especially for those of us writing the reference material :)
13:01 randomuser02323 masak, sure
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13:06 nicq20 Hello \o
13:06 viki \o\
13:06 yoleaux 6 Nov 2016 12:14Z <tbrowder> viki: last chance to object to my module breakup/naming scheme at github.com/tbrowder/Misc-Utils-Perl6
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13:24 masak m: say <\\o o/ \\o\\ \\o/>.roll(5).join(" ")
13:24 camelia rakudo-moar e3e3fe: OUTPUT«\o\ \o/ \o/ \o \o/␤»
13:25 nicq20 It's like a party!
13:25 masak m: say Q<\o o/ \o\ \o/>.words.roll(5).join(" ")
13:25 camelia rakudo-moar e3e3fe: OUTPUT«\o o/ \o \o \o/␤»
13:27 TimToady m: say Qw<\o o/ \o\ \o/>.roll(5).join(" ")
13:27 camelia rakudo-moar e3e3fe: OUTPUT«o/ \o\ \o\ \o\ o/␤»
13:31 viki m: say Qw<\o o/ \o\ \o/>.roll(5)
13:31 camelia rakudo-moar 40704b: OUTPUT«(o/ o/ o/ \o\ \o\)␤»
13:33 masak m: say Qw<\o o/ \o\ \o/>.roll for ^5
13:33 camelia rakudo-moar 40704b: OUTPUT«o/␤\o\␤\o\␤\o␤\o\␤»
13:34 viki m: say Qw<\o o/ \o\ \o/>[rand * xx 5]
13:34 camelia rakudo-moar 40704b: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared routine:␤    xx used at line 1␤␤»
13:35 viki :'(
13:35 masak .roll is there so you don't have to do rand() * .elems
13:35 yoleaux e.g. .roll 1d12
13:35 masak yoleaux: ...er, thanks.
13:36 * masak looks funny at yoleaux
13:37 viki .roll 1d20
13:37 yoleaux 20
13:37 masak Natural 20 :)
13:39 eythian looks pretty artificial to me
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14:05 pmurias grondilu: re running MoarVM on top of wasm isn't it a matter of compiling MoarVM with a modified C compiler and ripping out unsupporter libuv stuff?
14:11 pmurias * unsupported
14:11 pmurias stubbing those function would be better then ripping them out
14:11 viki ab5tract_: you around?
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14:21 * timotimo is also now looking at "checking for updates..."
14:21 timotimo at least 10 minutes now
14:24 timotimo also, "cleaning: windows update clean-up" apparently blocked on something else. or otherwise just ridiculously slow
14:42 * brrt wonders if it would be possible to JIT compile wasm in a wasm environment
14:43 grondilu pmurias: it probably is, indeed.
14:43 * lizmat would settle for faster JIT right now   :-)
14:44 * brrt knows.....
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14:49 grondilu pmurias: (though to be honest I'm not qualified to give an informed answer)
14:49 arnsholt Some of you Perl 6 peeps have domains and stuff. Anyone know who's a reputable registrar these days?
14:50 viki arnsholt: I use 1and1.ca for personal stuff and 1and1.com for $work stuff and been fine with them for ~8 years
14:50 viki arnsholt: I also used active-domain.com.... Don't use them. Shoddy CS and security and they suck :)
14:51 grondilu also I don't think "running MoarVM on top of wasm" is a correct phrasing.  wasm is not a emulation layer or anything.  It's an architecture.  So MoarVM targetting wasm makes as much sense as it targetting say x86
14:53 grondilu I suspect it would pretty damn fast
14:56 viki .tell ab5tract_ I had to revert your PR #911 as it broke 6.c-errata. See https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo​/pull/911#issuecomment-258854543
14:56 yoleaux viki: I'll pass your message to ab5tract_.
14:57 jnap_ Active state seems to be expanding language support.  Anyone reach out for supporting perl6? Any interest?
15:00 viki What would they be doing?
15:00 viki For P5 they offer Windows builds, but we do them ourselves... What else does AS do?
15:01 * viki 's mental image of AS is "worse Perl 5 than Strawberry Perl with its own, package ecosystem that offers ancient versions"
15:02 lizmat viki: for better or worse, they provide business support for Perl
15:02 lizmat I think that's a nice thing to have
15:02 mst viki: Enterprise Support
15:02 mst which is its own bag of strange, and has to have its own priorities
15:03 lizmat what mst said  :-)
15:03 mst if you don't understand why AS is useful, you're probably not their target market, and that's completely fine
15:03 viki Ah
15:03 mst note that it took me some years to switch to this position myself, starting from one much more like yours :)
15:04 viki :)
15:05 pmurias grondilu: targeting wasm seems to imply compiling down to wasm, which is something that might makes senses when wasm evolves a lot
15:06 pmurias brrt: you can jit compile wasm
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15:11 pmurias brrt: fun fact, nqp-js/rakudo-js generates some JS at runtime for some things as an optimalization (for accessors and setting of default values for objects)
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15:23 viki It's quite encouraging to see many positive comments on today's front-page P6 HN question ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12888784 ), especially from people I don't even recognize :)
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15:26 brrt pmurias: cool
15:32 pmurias do we have a measure of 'Is Perl 6 taking off?'
15:32 mst I don't think so, and I'm not sure we really need one yet
15:32 mst "are people having fun with perl6?" is probably more important at this stage
15:33 brrt yeah, what mst says...
15:34 brrt it is not our time to care about the size of our conference hall just yet
15:34 brrt that may happen in the future, and it might not
15:35 brrt there are still people that come here as newbies, and from what I gather, the overall experience they have is still improving
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15:36 brrt a from a system dynamics standpoint, the question is, how long are we retaining new users, and how much does the number of new users we get depend on the number of existing, active user
15:36 brrt oh, and how much users do we get independently of our existing userbase
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15:39 brrt the whole point is that languages are mostly popular because they are popular
15:39 FROGGS o/
15:40 brrt \o
15:41 brrt now, if 'natural inflow' is large enough, you'll get users no matter what
15:41 brrt e.g. google's go
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15:42 brrt not to say that didn't solve new problems, but i'd say that that the main reason it took off is that it being 'the google language' would be sufficient reason for many people to take a look
15:43 brrt retention and transmission doens't have to be so high for it to be popular in that case
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15:47 brrt anyway </rant>
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16:01 viki Yeah, I agree that there's no measure and probably shouldn't be measured anyway.
16:04 viki One take away for me from that thread is to write more about about Perl 6's async/conc/paralel stuff.
16:05 Khisanth joined #perl6
16:05 viki And another take away is to ignore all of this inflamatory stuff in the future: almost missed a bus in the morning replying to this on Facebook and now wasted an hour replying to comments on HN >_<
16:12 DrForr Yep. I'm just glad that someone was able to resond politely; Talking about blah blah Perl is too complex blah blah why didn't they just do the compiler tightly optimized and perfect on release like every other language didn't because people have the memory of a goldfish and forget that *their* favoriate language had teething problems too, but it's easier to slag off someone else's hard work than it is to acknowledge their fave language's history
16:13 parisba joined #perl6
16:16 pmurias http://paste.debian.net/893344/ - should this pass in nqp?
16:17 mr-foobar joined #perl6
16:17 mst viki: btw, I'm not sure if this has occurred to you, but: even if somebody actually *is* being deliberately difficult, accusing them of it is almost never constructive
16:18 CQ joined #perl6
16:18 viki mst: sure, but I'm not always rational. Once in a while, I like to give it to my primal instincts, and lash out at random strangers on the Internet ;)
16:20 viki nqp: grammar ABC { token rad_number { $<radix> = [\d+] {} :my $r := ''~$<radix>; {ok($r eq '123')} } }; ABC.parse('123', :rule<rad_number>);
16:20 camelia nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«ok 1␤»
16:20 viki pmurias: you need to insert an empty block ^ I was told this is a bug
16:21 mspo heh HN
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16:21 mspo viki: best of HN is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/programmingcirclejerk/
16:21 mspo hey there's a p6 comment on there today
16:22 viki that URL doesn't look SWF :P
16:22 mspo just a lot of snark
16:22 timotimo "checking for updates"
16:23 mst http://argumate.tumblr.com/post/152823​292197/argumate-voidfraction-argumate <- regexps and parse combinators
16:23 FROGGS pmurias: as viki said, you need a {} to force updating $/... that even happens in rakudo, and it is a bug
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16:25 FROGGS m: grammar ABC { token rad_number { $<radix>=[\d+] :my $r := ~$<radix>; {say "'$r' ||| '$<radix>'" } } }; ABC.parse('123', :rule<rad_number>);
16:25 camelia rakudo-moar 29a3fa: OUTPUT«Use of Nil in string context␤  in regex rad_number at <tmp> line 1␤'' ||| '123'␤»
16:25 pmurias the code is was taken from and minified from Perl6::Grammar
16:25 FROGGS m: grammar ABC { token rad_number { $<radix>=[\d+] {} :my $r := ~$<radix>; {say "'$r' ||| '$<radix>'" } } }; ABC.parse('123', :rule<rad_number>);
16:25 camelia rakudo-moar 29a3fa: OUTPUT«'123' ||| '123'␤»
16:25 viki ||| 0.o
16:25 pmurias line 3418
16:25 viki Oh, it's inside a string :)
16:26 FROGGS viki: just a visial separator
16:26 FROGGS visual*
16:26 viki MS Visual Separator 6
16:26 pmurias https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/bl​ob/nom/src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp#L3420
16:26 FROGGS m: grammar ABC { token rad_number { $<radix>=[\d+] <.unsp>? :my $r := ~$<radix>; {say "'$r' ||| '$<radix>'" } } }; ABC.parse('123', :rule<rad_number>);
16:26 camelia rakudo-moar 29a3fa: OUTPUT«No such method 'unsp' for invocant of type 'ABC'␤  in regex rad_number at <tmp> line 1␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
16:27 FROGGS m: grammar ABC { token rad_number { $<radix>=[\d+] <[\s]>? :my $r := ~$<radix>; {say "'$r' ||| '$<radix>'" } } }; ABC.parse('123', :rule<rad_number>);
16:27 camelia rakudo-moar 29a3fa: OUTPUT«Use of Nil in string context␤  in regex rad_number at <tmp> line 1␤'' ||| '123'␤»
16:27 FROGGS weird...
16:28 viki m: grammar ABC { token rad_number { $<radix> = [\d+] <ws>? :my $r := ''~$<radix>; {ok($r eq '123')} } }; ABC.parse('123', :rule<rad_number>);
16:28 camelia rakudo-moar 29a3fa: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared routine:␤    ok used at line 1␤␤»
16:28 viki nqp: grammar ABC { token rad_number { $<radix> = [\d+] <ws>? :my $r := ''~$<radix>; {ok($r eq '123')} } }; ABC.parse('123', :rule<rad_number>);
16:28 camelia nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«not ok 1␤»
16:29 viki fwiw, tokens used by unsp have {} in them, so that's prolly why it works
16:30 FROGGS we are 'lucky' then :S
16:34 timotimo when is "checking for updates" finished?
16:34 viki What are you updating? :)
16:34 timotimo windows
16:35 viki .oO( well, THERE'S your problem... )
16:35 timotimo it's been going for like 2 hours now
16:35 viki 0.o
16:35 mst timotimo: reboot it, see if that helps
16:36 mst timotimo: if it doesn't, turn the machine completely off, then back on, and see if that helps
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16:36 mst timotimo: if it doesn't, back up your data, reinstall the OS, and see if that helps
16:36 mst windows troubleshooting loop: "next step is always 'turn it off and on again' except harder"
16:36 mst soon docker and the cloud will bring this troubleshooting approach to us all
16:37 nicq20 The time depends on what version of Windows you have. They range from ~1month ... Inf
16:39 CQ timotimo: fresh windows 7 install? There were some huge bugs... and a series of patches to install manually to reduce it from days to hours. You'll find it if you google for it, but be sure to read at least 10 soutions, at some point they converge ;)
16:40 timotimo i can't believe this. i just want to play some unreal tournament
16:41 timotimo i *am* playing some unreal tournament
16:41 timotimo but still ...
16:41 mst I just came here to play some UT and honestly I'm feeling so attacked right now
16:41 timotimo windows >:( >:(
16:42 viki Play it on Linux :D
16:42 nicq20 \o/
16:43 timotimo viki: too lazy to figure out how to
16:43 timotimo mst: <3
16:44 nicq20 If I remember right this patch fixes the Updater. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us​/download/details.aspx?id=49540
16:44 nicq20 It's a bug with Sp1 in Win7
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16:49 viki m: my $x = 0; my $y = -20; say ($x||-∞) max ($y||-∞)
16:49 camelia rakudo-moar 764cfc: OUTPUT«-20␤»
16:49 viki Does this look sane to pretend 0 is not a value to consider?
16:49 pmurias Any idead why rad_number in rakudo actually works when the bug workaround is after the :my?
16:50 viki pmurias: because <.unsp> token has {} workarounds in it, maybe?
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16:50 viki m: grammar ABC { token foo { 42 {} }; token rad_number { $<radix> = [\d+] <foo>? :my $r := ''~$<radix>; {ok($r eq '123')} } }; ABC.parse('123', :rule<rad_number>);
16:50 camelia rakudo-moar 764cfc: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared routine:␤    ok used at line 1␤␤»
16:50 viki nqp: grammar ABC { token foo { 42 {} }; token rad_number { $<radix> = [\d+] <foo>? :my $r := ''~$<radix>; {ok($r eq '123')} } }; ABC.parse('123', :rule<rad_number>);
16:50 camelia nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«not ok 1␤»
16:51 viki nqp: grammar ABC { token foo { {} }; token rad_number { $<radix> = [\d+] <foo>? :my $r := ''~$<radix>; {ok($r eq '123')} } }; ABC.parse('123', :rule<rad_number>);
16:51 camelia nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«not ok 1␤»
16:51 viki Nope. No idea.
16:51 timotimo nicq20: i'm on windows 8.21
16:51 timotimo 8.1*
16:52 nicq20 Oh, hmm. Sorry, never really messed with Win8.
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16:54 gfldex timotimo: the windows update server may be congested. It can take hours before the update continues.
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16:56 timotimo wow.
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17:23 El_Che timotimo: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3200747
17:24 El_Che timotimo: without that updates will take 24 hours on a fast pc, 48 on a slower one
17:25 viki 0.o holy crap
17:25 El_Che The part of my brain that is ruled by conspiracy theories puts forward the idea that is part of an evil plan to push you to windows 10
17:26 El_Che bbl
17:29 viki I wouldn't be surprised. Windows 10 is super spyware that gives them all your data and you can't even disable updates on it :)
17:31 timotimo El_Che: dude i told you i'm on windows 8
17:33 El_Che timotimo: missed that
17:33 El_Che however. Probably the same.
17:34 viki huggable: uni :is: «»×÷−∘≅πτ𝑒∞…‘’‚“”„「」⁺⁻¯⁰¹²³⁴​⁵⁶⁷⁸⁹∘∅∈∉∋∌⊆⊈⊂⊄⊇⊉⊃⊅≼≽∪∩∖⊖⊍⊎
17:34 huggable viki, Added uni as «»×÷−∘≅πτ𝑒∞…‘’‚“”„「」⁺⁻¯⁰¹²³⁴​⁵⁶⁷⁸⁹∘∅∈∉∋∌⊆⊈⊂⊄⊇⊉⊃⊅≼≽∪∩∖⊖⊍⊎
17:39 japhb viki: Why that particular set?  Is that actually the full set supported by Rakudo right now?
17:40 viki japhb: it's a copy/paste from https://docs.perl6.org/language/unicode_tex​as.html#Other_acceptable_single_codepoints
17:41 viki It's my solution over trying to figure out how to set up compose sequences properly on my current box ^_^
17:41 japhb WFM
17:42 japhb I was going to suggest just putting that string in the topic, but then I realized the topic is longer than one line on my maximized terminal, so perhaps the topic needs some trimming/golfing first
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17:59 viki So why did Karen step down as Pres of TPF? Or is that a secret?
18:00 viki ( context: http://blogs.perl.org/users/shadowcat_mdk/​2016/11/the-times-they-are-a-changin.html )
18:03 lizmat viki: fwiw, I heard about it from the blog post
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18:15 viki hehe, it's funny how I saw the Perl 6 HN thread posted in r/perl and thought mojo folks likely having a kick out of it... Glance at channel log and sure enough, not only about Perl 6 by disecting Zoffix too :)
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18:19 mspo all things considered, perl6 is surprisingly popular
18:20 viki Yeah. And TBH I came to feel keeping the Perl brand had a benefit...  for Perl 6 at least.
18:20 harmil_wk I updated that bug we talked about on Friday with a new test case demonstrating the defaults-setting issue with respect to library code: https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=130020
18:20 viki Despite the need to tell people that P5 and P6 are different langs.
18:20 mspo if someone can magic up a few quasi-popular projects/frameworks I think it has a chance to do okay
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18:20 mspo viki: I disagree but <shrug>
18:21 mspo a little late now ;)
18:21 viki Exactly :)
18:21 harmil_wk P5 and P6 are the same language. P6 just has a bit more outside of "use Inline::Perl5" ;-)
18:21 mspo I have a feeling p6 will have a story like golang
18:21 viki What's golang's story?
18:22 mst "because google"
18:22 mspo the story: "we expected a bunch of c++ programmers to jump on board but ended up getting all of the python people"
18:22 viki haha :)
18:22 mspo google is basically dropping python internally, so I'm told
18:22 mspo in favor of doing stuff in go
18:22 kyclark I'm working on a new post for blogs.perl.org, and I'd like opinions on my code, specifically if there's anything I can use in P6 to make it cleaner and/or show off some cool P6 feature/syntax: http://pastie.org/10957667
18:23 mspo so perl6 will be like "we were expecting all of the old perl5 people to come over but it ended up being $somethingelse"
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18:23 kyclark E.g., line 75 I want to create an array of Ball objects all at once (my Ball @balls = do for ^$balls { Ball.new(:rows($rows), :cols($cols)) };) Any better/cooler way to do that?
18:23 mst mspo: yeah, that's basically what I expect to happen
18:24 viki kyclark: you can write as submethod BUILD (PosInt :$!cols, PosInt :$!rows) { without a need for separate assignment in body
18:24 kyclark Also, line 78, how to I get all the balls to move better than "@balls.map(*.move);"
18:24 mspo kyclark: make a blog showing really boring, idiomatic, non-utf8-source-code doing something super useful in a short number of lines :)
18:24 El_Che I've tried to like python. I failed. Go, on the other hand is pretty nice.
18:24 firstdayonthejob joined #perl6
18:24 mspo El_Che: yes
18:24 viki mspo: oh, right from when I started using Perl 6, I always felt the attempt to focus on bringing Perl 5 users over was... strange. Just due to vast differences in languages.
18:25 mspo if golang had phasers it would be really sweet ;)
18:25 mspo being unable to safely bind to port 80 in go is just annoying
18:25 harmil_wk I think Perl 6 replaces an important role in the language space that Common Lisp used to hold: the example of what happens when you do all the things. Our challenge is in trying to find a way to use that lever to capture audience...
18:26 viki kyclark: actually, you don't seem to need submethod BUILD at all. Just write all of that stuff in the body when defining the attributes.
18:27 kyclark So then create a "method row" that sets it if not initialized?
18:27 viki kyclark: and another thing, you use $.vert-dir inside the class all over the code, but it's typical to use $!vert-dir, which is attribute access, while $. is a method call on top of it.
18:28 viki kyclark: um, no you'd just write  has Int $!row is rw = (1..$!rows).pick;
18:28 viki And that shouild work IIRC
18:29 kyclark Ooo, pretty!
18:29 viki kyclark: and Ball.new(:rows($rows), :cols($cols)) can be written as Ball.new(:$rows, :$cols)
18:30 viki I'd write that entire line as this (but, it's just me):   my Ball @balls = ^$balls .map: Ball.new: :$rows, :$cols;
18:30 cdg joined #perl6
18:31 viki whereas @balls.map(*.move); I'd write as .move for @balls;
18:31 * viki shrugs
18:32 viki kyclark: looks good to me. kyclark++ writing things \o/
18:36 viki "<jberger> I think the idea that there is no video of a cheering room and larry wall ceremonially uploading perl6-christmas (or whatever the damn version is) is a travesty"
18:36 viki TimToady!! You let us all down :D
18:40 viki m: class { has $.rows; has $.meows = (1..$!rows).pick; }.new(:42rows).meows.say
18:40 camelia rakudo-moar e10f76: OUTPUT«6␤»
18:40 viki m: class { has $.rows; has $.meows = (1..$!rows).pick; }.new(:42rows).meows.say
18:40 camelia rakudo-moar e10f76: OUTPUT«26␤»
18:40 viki Yup. Works.
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19:08 lizmat kyclark: looks like a link doesn't have a </a> ?
19:10 mst viki: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12891489 # :D
19:14 viki seen it :P
19:14 lizmat kyclark: also, cutting and pasting your code into a script doesn't compile ?
19:14 mst viki: the edit was new to me and made me happy
19:15 viki mst: oh, I didn't notice the edit before :D
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19:21 Xliff m: enum IncompletelyDefined ( A => 1, B, C, D );
19:21 camelia rakudo-moar e10f76: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared names:␤    B used at line 1␤    C used at line 1␤    D used at line 1␤␤»
19:21 Xliff m: enum CompletelyDefined ( A, B, C, D );
19:21 camelia rakudo-moar e10f76: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared names:␤    A used at line 1␤    B used at line 1␤    C used at line 1␤    D used at line 1␤␤»
19:21 RabidGravy boom!
19:21 Xliff m: enum CompletelyDefined <A B C D>
19:21 camelia rakudo-moar e10f76: ( no output )
19:21 Xliff WTF?
19:22 Xliff m: enum IncompletelyDefined ( A => 1, B => 2, C => 3, D => 4);
19:22 camelia rakudo-moar e10f76: ( no output )
19:22 Xliff OK, there's a problem here with compatibility with C-libs.
19:22 Xliff The first declaration is commonly used in C.
19:22 Xliff Is there a Perl6-ish equivalent?
19:26 FROGGS m: enum IncompletelyDefined ( A => 42, 'B', 'C', 'D' ); say +B
19:26 camelia rakudo-moar e10f76: OUTPUT«43␤»
19:27 Xliff FROGGS++
19:27 Xliff As always.
19:27 vendethiel Xliff: enum CD <<:A(42) B C D>>; say +B;
19:27 vendethiel m: enum CD <<:A(42) B C D>>; say +B;
19:27 camelia rakudo-moar e10f76: OUTPUT«43␤»
19:27 Xliff FROGGS: Any progress on XML::LibXML?
19:27 FROGGS Xliff: no :o(
19:27 FROGGS not enough time...
19:28 Xliff I feel you man.
19:28 FROGGS m: enum IncompletelyDefined ( 'A' => 42, 'B', 'C', 'D' ); say +B # I'd call this a bug
19:28 camelia rakudo-moar e10f76: OUTPUT«1␤»
19:28 Xliff Yikes!
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19:29 gfldex FROGGS: it should at least warn that the Pair is meaningless in that spot
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19:29 kyclark lizmat: Movable Type is killing my "enum" line
19:29 gfldex FROGGS: however, a colonpair is not the same thing as a Pair and would should educate better
19:30 kyclark it doesn't like the <> operator, and I'm trying to figure out a different way to write it that will satisfy both Perl and MT
19:30 lizmat kyclark: I guess you need to use &lt; for < and &gt; for ?
19:30 lizmat >
19:30 lizmat using that will copy/paste correctly afaik
19:30 kyclark It's in a <pre>, so I thought it would be safe
19:31 lizmat you can have <i> inside a <pre> so it isn't  :-)
19:32 FROGGS gfldex: well... I dont like warnings. so it should either do what I meant, or it should parsefail
19:32 FROGGS let me RT it
19:34 gfldex m: enum E ( 'A' => { say "foo" }, 'B' );
19:34 camelia rakudo-moar e10f76: OUTPUT«Block object coerced to string (please use .gist or .perl to do that)␤  in any type_declarator:sym<enum> at gen/moar/m-Perl6-Actions.nqp line 4383␤»
19:35 viki kyclark: you can write it in Markdown. If you indent with 4 spaces, it should work fine.
19:36 gfldex FROGGS: IIRC enum values where ment to hold much more then just Int. So the Pair form does make sense, eventhough it doesn't work quite yet.
19:36 kyclark Ah, good to know.  I also like the ``` for code that I use in Gitbook
19:37 Xliff m: use NativeCall; class A is repr('CStruct') { has A $.aa; has int32 $.bb; has A $.cc; }
19:37 camelia rakudo-moar e10f76: ( no output )
19:38 FROGGS gfldex: I dont see how the type of the value has anything todo how keys are handled?
19:38 FROGGS gfldex: ohh hold on, I read 'doesnt', but you said 'does' :o)
19:38 FROGGS gfldex: never mind then :o)
19:39 gfldex FROGGS: if the type is anything but Num literals the parser should enforce Pairs for every key/value
19:39 Xliff m: use NativeCall; class A is repr('CStruct') { has A $.next; has int32 $.bb; has A $.prev; }
19:39 camelia rakudo-moar e10f76: ( no output )
19:39 viki kyclark: I don't think the ``` for code will work on Movable Type, since it's not part of vanilla Markdown
19:39 FROGGS Xliff: the names do not matter
19:40 viki kyclark: oh, maybe it will. I may be misrememebering and it's the ```some-lang that you can use on GitHub that's not supported.
19:40 FROGGS : use NativeCall; class A is repr('CStruct') { has int8 $.a; HAS A $.b } # boom?
19:40 FROGGS m: use NativeCall; class A is repr('CStruct') { has int8 $.a; HAS A $.b } # boom?
19:40 camelia rakudo-moar e10f76: OUTPUT«(signal SEGV)»
19:40 FROGGS hehe
19:40 * FROGGS .oO( I knew it! :P )
19:41 Xliff O_o
19:41 Xliff Yeah. Compiler should catch that. Circular.
19:42 Xliff RT?
19:42 gfldex m: use NativeCall; class A {...}; class A is repr('CStruct') { has int8 $.a; HAS A $.b }
19:42 camelia rakudo-moar e10f76: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Cannot change REPR of A now (must be set at initial declaration)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3lass A {...}; class A is repr('CStruct')7⏏5 { has int8 $.a; HAS A $.b }␤»
19:43 FROGGS Xliff: that wants RTing, yes
19:43 gfldex m: use NativeCall; class A is repr('CStruct') {...}; class A is repr('CStruct') { has int8 $.a; HAS A $.b }
19:43 camelia rakudo-moar e10f76: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Cannot change REPR of A now (must be set at initial declaration)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3ruct') {...}; class A is repr('CStruct')7⏏5 { has int8 $.a; HAS A $.b }␤»
19:45 FROGGS m: use NativeCall; class A is repr('CStruct') {...}; class A { has int8 $.a; HAS A $.b }
19:45 camelia rakudo-moar e10f76: OUTPUT«(signal SEGV)»
19:45 FROGGS m: use NativeCall; class A is repr('CStruct') {...}; class A { has int8 $.a; has A $.b }
19:45 camelia rakudo-moar e10f76: ( no output )
19:52 Xliff gfldex: That's error is also something that might need rethinking.
19:53 Xliff Say I have module B that wants conditional support of module A and uses some of the classes defined in B.
19:53 Xliff Errr...
19:53 Xliff Say I have module B that wants conditional support of module A and uses some of the classes defined in B
19:53 Xliff Dammit...
19:53 Xliff Say I have module B that wants conditional support of module A and uses some of the classes defined in *A*
19:53 Xliff Class B will need to predefine those classes and define the repr.
19:54 Xliff The problem happens when class A is loaded and it's classes have placeholders that have already defined the repr.
19:55 Xliff I guess I should try and load A, first?
19:56 pierre_ joined #perl6
19:56 andrzejku hey guys
19:56 andrzejku what do you think about javascript?
19:57 Juerd Useful but too much typing for how few language features it has.
19:58 viki andrzejku: it's fine, but DOM is annoying :)
19:58 andrzejku ohh
19:58 viki getDocumentByManyMoreCharacters.
19:58 andrzejku as from my side I see that javascript killed perl
19:59 viki haha
19:59 viki andrzejku: nah, it was still frowned upon when everyone was using PHP and ROR already
20:00 andrzejku :-)
20:00 andrzejku well
20:02 FROGGS Xliff: yes, sounds like you want to load A first
20:04 * TimToady waves from Lisbon
20:04 viki \o
20:04 * FROGGS waves from Kinderzimmer
20:09 timotimo don't wave the kid around like that!
20:11 FROGGS shhh! they're falling asleep!
20:13 javan joined #perl6
20:19 FROGGS btw, I enjoy JavaScript very much...
20:19 FROGGS and it could be so much worse
20:19 masak yes, JavaScript is pretty nice
20:20 FROGGS think of a abap-in-browser or even php-in-browser language! /o\
20:20 masak JavaScript has definitely killed Perl, but only in the sense that JavaScript has killed *all* languages, period.
20:21 masak the thing we joke around about sometimes, "everything is a just a dialect/slang of Perl 6", is literally true of all the languages that compile to JavaScript
20:21 Xliff Perl* >> JS
20:21 Xliff It is a decent language, but it has flaws.
20:21 Xliff I would prefer Perl.
20:22 El_Che FROGGS: shut up. We have a "responsive" app at work. The first screen on phone/tablet is the typical big-buttons. Once you click that you get a 90's abap interface
20:22 FROGGS *g*
20:23 masak I'm not talking about language quality. I find many reasons to prefer Perl (5 and 6) to JavaScript.
20:23 masak just saying that JavaScript has already won.
20:23 masak El_Che: "Advanced Business Application Programming"? that's a new one to me.
20:23 awwaiid agreed here
20:23 jargan joined #perl6
20:23 masak El_Che: sounds like a not-so-subtle torture method.
20:23 FROGGS masak: never seen SAP under the hood?
20:23 masak no, only heard about it.
20:24 El_Che I was making fun of that at the coffee machine. The ABAP devs were there and they didn't find me as funny as the rest of the poeple :)
20:24 FROGGS masak: awww, good for you :o)
20:24 cgfbee joined #perl6
20:24 masak FROGGS: more luck than self-preservation, I'm afraid ;)
20:25 El_Che I wanted to do a Trump impression and talk about building a wall to stop ABAP interfaces, but a inner voice told me to stop
20:25 pierrot_ joined #perl6
20:26 timotimo should i read that hacker news thread, or is it just going to make me sad?
20:26 masak timotimo: it was a mixed bag.
20:26 awwaiid yes?
20:26 pierrot_ joined #perl6
20:26 viki timotimo: just gonna make you sad :)
20:27 masak timotimo: I think if you have to ask, then perhaps not. :)
20:27 El_Che mixed bag of poo and fire!
20:27 viki timotimo: well, no... it's a mixed bag, as masak says, but IMO there's no point reading it :)
20:27 El_Che (haven't read it yet)
20:27 viki (I regret reading it)
20:27 labster joined #perl6
20:27 masak timotimo: or perhaps the question can be rephrased into the simpler question "will HN tell me something meaningful about Perl 6?" :P
20:28 FROGGS masak: that highlights abap pretty well: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Date_format#ABAP
20:30 FROGGS btw, sy-datum+6(2) is a subtring, where sy-datum is the variable
20:30 masak FROGGS: looks like if COBOL and stored procedures had a secret love child.
20:30 FROGGS in fact, it is a substring shorthand... and no, you cant subtring from the end this way
20:30 masak FROGGS: at least dashes are valid in identifiers! :D
20:31 Xliff I'm still not used to that.
20:31 Xliff It makes sense in a language where identifiers are sigilized.
20:31 FROGGS IIRC the dashes are separators of structures and their fields
20:31 Xliff But just looks.... wrong
20:31 viki The Perl 6 version for that entry is missing out on core-only formatting features:
20:31 viki m: DateTime.now.yyyy-mm-dd.say
20:31 camelia rakudo-moar 62005f: OUTPUT«2016-11-07␤»
20:32 Xliff Ooooh!
20:32 Juerd viki: It's a wiki... :D
20:32 masak m: Date.today.say
20:32 camelia rakudo-moar 62005f: OUTPUT«2016-11-07␤»
20:32 Xliff m: DateTime.now.hh-mm-ss.say
20:32 camelia rakudo-moar 62005f: OUTPUT«No such method 'hh-mm-ss' for invocant of type 'DateTime'␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
20:32 Xliff :W
20:32 Xliff :(
20:32 Xliff m: DateTime.now.yyyy-yyyy-dd-dd.say
20:32 camelia rakudo-moar 62005f: OUTPUT«No such method 'yyyy-yyyy-dd-dd' for invocant of type 'DateTime'␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
20:32 Xliff Well crap.
20:32 viki Xliff: it's not voodoo
20:32 FROGGS viki: you can add it as an alternative
20:32 viki m: DateTime.now(:formatter{.year ~ "-" ~ .day}).say
20:32 camelia rakudo-moar 62005f: OUTPUT«2016-7␤»
20:33 Xliff Methods, not arbitrary formats.
20:33 Xliff Still. hh-mm-ss is a no-brainer and should be considered.
20:33 Xliff Maybe I'll PR that.
20:33 viki Juerd: FROGGS that's easy to say, but it needs an account... and an email... and confirming via email...
20:33 Xliff m: DateTime.now.mm-dd-yyyy.say
20:33 camelia rakudo-moar 62005f: OUTPUT«No such method 'mm-dd-yyyy' for invocant of type 'DateTime'␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
20:33 Xliff ;O
20:33 FROGGS viki: shall I do it?
20:34 viki FROGGS: sure. FROGGS++
20:34 viki m: DateTime.now.^methods(:local).say
20:34 camelia rakudo-moar 62005f: OUTPUT«(new now clone Instant posix offset offset-in-minutes offset-in-hours later truncated-to whole-second in-timezone utc local Date DateTime daycount day-of-month IO day-of-week days-in-month earlier week week-number is-leap-year week-year weekday-of-month yy…»
20:34 viki m: DateTime.now.^methods(:local).grep({.name ~~ /yy/).say
20:34 camelia rakudo-moar 62005f: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Missing block␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3now.^methods(:local).grep({.name ~~ /yy/7⏏5).say␤    expecting any of:␤        statement end␤        statement modifier␤        statement modifier loop␤»
20:34 viki m: DateTime.now.^methods(:local).grep({.name ~~ /yy/}).say
20:34 camelia rakudo-moar 62005f: OUTPUT«(yyyy-mm-dd)␤»
20:34 viki hm
20:34 * Xliff goes to fiddle.
20:35 viki Ah, it's given by Datish
20:36 FROGGS viki: hmmm, I guess it doesnt make sence to add that example since we cant fulfil the second print statement...
20:36 viki In fact, DateTime::Format would make more sense to provide various formatters instead of using a C-named function *sigh* :(
20:36 viki FROGGS: well, what does "%A, %B %d, %Y" give?
20:36 timotimo are there any actionable complaints from anyone who actually tried/used perl6 in that thread?
20:37 FROGGS viki: I thing I like moment.js's api
20:37 Xliff method yyyy-mm-dd() { sprintf '%04d-%02d-%02d',$!year,$!month,$!day }
20:37 Xliff /o\ --- I was expecting magic
20:37 viki heh
20:37 FROGGS Xliff: but magic is harder to debug
20:38 viki Ah, it gives Monday, November 07, 2016
20:38 FROGGS maybe I'll write a DateTime::MomentJS some day that exposes the identical API as moment.js
20:38 FROGGS would be nice to have one formatting rule for front- and backend
20:38 viki FROGGS: yeah, for that it makes sense to use a module, but IMO it makes sense to include the core way for the first line, at least
20:39 Xliff FROGGS: Not if the magic is magic enough.
20:39 Xliff method mm-dd-yyyy() { sprintf '%02d-%02d-%02d',$!month,$!day,$!year }
20:39 Xliff Easy peasey.
20:39 viki Since it's just an argless method on the Dateish object
20:40 Xliff m: say DateTime.now
20:40 camelia rakudo-moar 62005f: OUTPUT«2016-11-07T21:40:14.055580+01:00␤»
20:42 Xliff PR submitted.
20:43 viki PR for what?
20:43 viki m: say DateTime.now(:formatter{ sprintf "%2d:%2d:%2d", .hour, .minute, .second }).say
20:43 camelia rakudo-moar 62005f: OUTPUT«21:43:45␤True␤»
20:44 Juerd You might want to make those %02d
20:44 viki Aye
20:44 masak Xliff: the one for $!year should be '%04d'
20:44 FROGGS viki: okay? http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Date_format#Perl_6
20:44 viki m: DateTime.now(:formatter{ sprintf "%02d:%02d:%02d", .hour % 12, .minute, .second }).say
20:44 camelia rakudo-moar 62005f: OUTPUT«09:44:52␤»
20:44 masak heh -- complain about lack of magic, and then introduce bugs in your own version :P
20:45 FROGGS *g*
20:45 viki FROGGS: good nuf. Thanks :D
20:46 Xliff Aaaand... another one.
20:46 viki :/
20:46 Xliff "Add hh-mm-ss to DateTime.pm"
20:46 viki Xliff: I don't see it
20:46 Xliff Just submitted.
20:47 viki Xliff: have you built it and ran the spectest :}
20:48 Xliff Nope.
20:48 Xliff I can do that now, though.
20:48 viki m: use MONKEY; augment class DateTime {  method hh-mm-ss { sprintf "%02d:%02d:%02d", $!hour,$!minute,$!second; } }; DateTime.now.hh-mm-ss.say
20:48 camelia rakudo-moar 62005f: OUTPUT«21:49:00␤»
20:49 viki Xliff: merged, thanks. But in the future, yeah, it makes sense to run the stresstest.
20:49 viki Or spectest if your box isn't super-dupper-core-heavy
20:50 Xliff zoffixvikicollective: Will do that in the future.
20:50 Xliff (resistance is futile... you know you want to say it, ZoffixBorg!)
20:52 AlexDaniel the idea of adding dd-mm-yyyy method is just nonsense. See this: https://en.wikipedia.org/w​iki/Date_format_by_country
20:53 viki Xliff: I take it you'll also submit docs and tests to roast, right? :)
20:54 masak AlexDaniel: I don't think anyone suggested that. :)
20:54 AlexDaniel masak: and what does that mean??
20:55 viki masak: there's actually a PR for it. But it looks like it's not going in.
20:55 * viki & relocating
20:55 AlexDaniel well, I guess it means you don't have github notifications turned on…
20:55 masak guess so
20:55 viki Xliff: FWIW, All tests successful. Files=1200, Tests=130127, 149 wallclock secs (20.01 usr  2.92 sys + 2630.67 cusr 245.17 csys = 2898.77 CPU)
20:56 labster That's a fun PR.
20:56 AlexDaniel “looks like”, ha! This is just beyond … okay, I'll just move on…
20:56 viki (that's stresstest with your merged PR)
20:56 masak I wouldn't want us to merge a PR with dd-mm-yyyy in it, no
20:56 labster I'm going to suggest mm-yyyy-dd for my next PR!
20:56 masak the DateTime classes have been not-so-subtly ISO-8601-centric since they were last rebooted (many years ago). I think that's a winning trait.
20:57 masak of course, all is fair in whatever non-core DateTime modules people dream up.
20:57 labster I still need to write the Discordian date module.  ddate.pl is a classic.
20:57 masak and gosh no, I don't have github notifications turned on :P
20:58 bjz joined #perl6
20:58 masak I think I would enjoy a Chinese lunar calendar module.
20:59 masak 'night, #perl6
20:59 labster Good nigh, masak
20:59 AlexDaniel Cambodia – Short format: yyyy-mm-dd, Long format: dd-mm-yyyy
20:59 AlexDaniel I wonder what does it mean…
21:00 FROGGS maybe there is another definition of long and short
21:00 Xliff In another universe, maybe
21:00 labster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me​soamerican_Long_Count_calendar?
21:00 FROGGS gnight #perl6
21:05 lizmat and another Perl 6 Weekly hits the Net: https://p6weekly.wordpress.com/2016​/11/07/2016-45-shapes-get-a-boost/
21:07 dha lizmat++
21:09 cdg joined #perl6
21:11 viki lizmat++ good weekly
21:15 bartolin yeah, lizmat++
21:19 bjz_ joined #perl6
21:21 dha Huh. I may have missed a meeting, but is zef *supposed* to be failing to install things with an error of "No fetching backend available"?
21:23 cck0 joined #perl6
21:24 dha In related musings, is the fact that panda bails if you try to install a module that's already installed supposed to be a feature or a bug?
21:25 AlexDaniel what happens when you do the same thing with zef?
21:26 AlexDaniel “The logo is cute, I will say.” Wow! That's on Hacker News!
21:27 gfldex dha: since any module/program may require a module of a given version, just rushing in and installing a new version may fail. Versioning is not to well supported yet, hence the odd default.
21:27 dha Ah. Ok. So, feature, then. :-)
21:28 gfldex it would be nice to have a proper error message with version numbers displayed tho
21:29 dha I *think* in practice the problem is that there are times when a module's prereqs try to install even though they're already installed.
21:30 RabidGravy nine, is the lexical module loading stuff good to test?  I'll test and fix all my modules if so :)
21:31 dha For instance, if you try to install HTTP::UserAgent, it tries to install HTTP::Status, despite that being already installed, and that lead to panda bailing.
21:31 dha And the "No fetching backend available" I'm getting with zef, I totally don't understand.
21:32 dha But that may be module dependent. or something. :-
21:32 RabidGravy I thought panda didn't try to install the deps if they were already installed
21:32 dha /
21:32 dha RabidGravy - apparently that is not (always?) the case.
21:33 dha At least here.
21:34 gfldex dha: if your zef woes persist (could be a github timeout) please file a bugreport at https://github.com/ugexe/zef/issues
21:34 labster Thanks for the weeklies, lizmat++
21:35 AlexDaniel “I think that logo is really childish and weird looking.” okay, now it is balanced
21:35 dha Ta. Currently seems to be heisenbugging on me, but if I can actually figure out a working test case for failure, I'll do that.
21:36 RabidGravy dha, that could be a panda version thing as I've just installed HUA having checked that HTTP::Status was installed and it's fine
21:37 dha I thought my panda was up to date, but I could be wrong.
21:37 * dha checks
21:42 viki AlexDaniel, wait, wait... so is the logo approved by the crowds of Internet strangers or not? I need to decide whether to spend any more time with perl 6
21:43 lizmat .oO( it's childish, so it appeals to children, so we will have the future  muhaha )
21:43 [Coke] playing the long game!
21:44 DrForr Get 'em when they're young...
21:44 AlexDaniel viki: this thread does not seem to be very representative. But it seems that this logo is 20+ year old line noise, so you'd better spend your time on something else!
21:47 RabidGravy In the last week I've done Scala, Ruby, Perl 5 and Perl 6 - I'm fairly certain I know my preferences :-\
21:47 AlexDaniel RabidGravy: soo… is it golang? :)
21:48 dha RabidGravy - so, APL?
21:48 RabidGravy I'll try and sneak both of them in foor the hell of it ;-)
21:52 vendethiel I'd love it if I could sneak in some APL at work...
21:52 vendethiel Perl 6 is far easier to sneak in. Just write scripts for your colleagues and voila...
21:54 nine RabidGravy: yep. the branch is a couple days out of date but otherwise I'd consider it merge worthy
21:54 RabidGravy I'll build it tomorrow and see
21:55 RabidGravy fixing for the effects of lexical loading is backward compatible I guess :)
21:56 mspo not sure getting moar + all the stuff is so easy to "sneak" in
21:56 nine RabidGravy: yes. Considering that it's usually just adding an occasional use statement.
21:57 RabidGravy yeah
21:57 RabidGravy mspo, I mad a Vagrantfile to make a rakudo image on Friday in work :)
22:05 mspo RabidGravy: need perl6packer
22:06 RabidGravy It's all going to be great :)
22:17 El_Che agh
22:17 El_Che trying out unity 8 on ubuntu
22:17 El_Che it feels like windows 8
22:17 El_Che bah
22:18 El_Che it's maid for people that love grease marks on their laptop screens
22:18 El_Che made
22:26 asdf_ joined #perl6
22:43 nicq20_ joined #perl6
22:43 nicq20_ Hello o/
22:44 dha Hello
22:45 AlexDaniel 🙋
22:45 DrForr Evenin'.
22:46 flaviusb joined #perl6
23:23 ajr_ joined #perl6
23:25 Lucas_One left #perl6
23:25 ajr_ Does anyone know how much memory is needed for the first step in the make process? The error code I'm getting suggests the process was forcibly killed, and I suspect it was an OOM condition.
23:25 gfldex is this still on arm?
23:25 ajr_ Yes
23:26 gfldex can't tell then :) It's about 1GB here locally
23:26 gfldex there is no JIT for arm in moarvm so it's going to take ages in any case
23:27 ajr_ Time doesn't matter much, I can set it going and leave it, but it's difficult to do much about memory.
23:28 AlexDaniel what distro are you using?
23:28 gfldex consider the arm port to be untested
23:31 AlexDaniel I'm asking because if it is anything debian-based, you can simply install it from debian testing repos
23:31 AlexDaniel and that will take almost no time an no memory
23:35 espadrine joined #perl6
23:36 cpage_ joined #perl6
23:37 seatek joined #perl6
23:39 ajr_ Installing from a debian repo feels like cheating. I'm trying to debug the install process.
23:44 timotimo ajr_: what makes you think of the first step in the make process?
23:44 timotimo 0.06user 0.01system 0:00.07elapsed 98%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 27744maxresident)k
23:45 timotimo the first step in the make process takes only about 27 megabytes of ram, and finishes in about 0.07 seconds
23:46 timotimo gfldex: i'm not sure jit makes such a big difference for the rakudo build process, tbh. arm still gets spesh, which is definitely quite valuable
23:48 geekosaur joined #perl6
23:49 gfldex it takes more then 2 hours to build rakudo. I know because the debian build infrastructure got a 2h timeout on the build of a single package.
23:49 timotimo oh, and it doesn't finish?
23:50 gfldex they must have changed something because there are arm64 packages for rakudo
23:50 timotimo mhm
23:52 PerlJam moritz++ and Zoffix++ for prodding people towards the advent calendar
23:55 ajr_ timotimo - Comparing the commands with a make -n's output.
23:55 timotimo /home/timo/perl6/install/bin/nqp-m tools/build/gen-cat.nqp moar src/vm/moar/ModuleLoaderVMConfig.nqp src/Perl6/ModuleLoader.nqp > gen/moar/m-ModuleLoader.nqp
23:55 timotimo that's the first line it spits out
23:57 ajr_ I think that's it; unfortunately, it's inconvenient to get the Pi and WiFi connections together.
23:58 ChoHag joined #perl6

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