Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2016-12-07

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:00 babydrop committable6: 2016.11: say permutations(3000).elems
00:00 committable6 babydrop, ¦«2016.11:»: No build for this commit
00:00 babydrop orly
00:00 babydrop committable6: 2016.10: say permutations(3000).elems
00:00 committable6 babydrop, ¦«2016.10:»: No build for this commit
00:00 babydrop committable6: 2016.11 say permutations(3000).elems
00:00 committable6 babydrop, ¦«2016.11»: 1
00:00 babydrop committable6: 2016.11 say +permutations(3000)
00:00 committable6 babydrop, ¦«2016.11»: Cowardly refusing to permutate more than 20 elements, tried 3000␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/gRUULhX7Nt line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/gRUULhX7Nt line 1␤ «exit code = 1»
00:00 babydrop ^ that's cause the .elems form ends up with a List of one item, with Failure in it.
00:01 babydrop So TimToady's suggestion was is it may make a sense for methods that may return lists to throw instead of failing.
00:01 babydrop But now I'm seeing that would affect a ton of methods, making our failure much less useful, so perhaps we need to think of an alternate approach to resolve the original issue
00:02 babydrop s/our failure/our failure mechanism stuff/;
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00:05 AlexDaniel babydrop: as for the policy, I don't think anything is needed. lizmat++ was quick enough to fix all previous regressions that were caused by optimizations and stuff
00:06 babydrop .oO( policy? )
00:06 babydrop m: multi foo(42) { 42}; for ^100_000 { my $x = foo 42; }; say now - INIT now
00:06 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«1.6167577␤»
00:06 Actualeyes left #perl6
00:06 AlexDaniel .oO( the one you mentioned? Nevermind )
00:06 babydrop m: multi foo(42) { 42}; multi foo([Failure:D]) { "got it" }; for ^100_000 { my $x = foo 42; }; say now - INIT now
00:06 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«1.59374864␤»
00:06 babydrop huh
00:06 babydrop m: multi foo(42) { 42}; for ^200_000 { my $x = foo 42; }; say now - INIT now
00:06 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«2.76862588␤»
00:06 babydrop m: multi foo(42) { 42}; multi foo([Failure:D]) { "got it" }; for ^200_000 { my $x = foo 42; }; say now - INIT now
00:07 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«3.06208905␤»
00:07 babydrop m: say 3.06/2.76
00:07 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«1.108696␤»
00:07 AlexDaniel babydrop: the failure thingy is still a bit over my head, so no ticket from me :P
00:07 babydrop Well, I guess that may be one way to do it, if we want to slow everything down by 10% :o
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00:08 samcv babydrop, i'm back
00:08 babydrop AlexDaniel: I'll rely to TimToady's omniscience ;)
00:08 babydrop samcv: right. So you wanted to make rakudo.org better?
00:08 samcv yes :)
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00:10 AlexDaniel :|
00:10 AlexDaniel m: say (5,6,7).pick(-1)
00:10 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«MVMArray: Index out of bounds␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
00:10 AlexDaniel j: say (5,6,7).pick(-1)
00:10 camelia rakudo-jvm 8ca367: OUTPUT«VMArray: Index out of bounds␤  in method pull-one at gen/jvm/CORE.setting line 18366␤  in method push-exactly at gen/jvm/CORE.setting line 2685␤  in method push-at-least at gen/jvm/CORE.setting line 2704␤  in method reify-at-least at gen/jvm/CORE.se…»
00:10 babydrop um, totally forgot my passowrd...
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00:11 AlexDaniel commit: 2015.12,HEAD say (5,6,7).pick(-1)
00:11 committable6 AlexDaniel, ¦«2015.12,HEAD»: MVMArray: Index out of bounds␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/s0KdTK5nQ3 line 1␤ «exit code = 1»
00:11 AlexDaniel ah, okay!
00:12 babydrop Apparently we have 53 new comments on rakudo.org
00:13 babydrop samcv: hm, I don't see an option to add a new user, so maybe I don't have sufficient perms
00:13 samcv hmm
00:14 babydrop timotimo: moritz: we have a volunteer to make rakudo.org better—samcv—would it be possible to hook them up with a user account for wordpress?
00:14 lucasb post comments? all I see is "Comments Off" O.o
00:15 babydrop lucasb: I see "53 comments in need of moderations"
00:15 babydrop Maybe it's old ones, before comments were turned off.
00:15 lucasb ah
00:15 lucasb spam maybe
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00:19 AlexDaniel by the way, are there any plans for uint/int overhaul?
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00:19 AlexDaniel because I see this problem like everywhere
00:19 AlexDaniel m: say (4,5,6).head(-99999999999999999)
00:19 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«()␤»
00:19 AlexDaniel m: say (4,5,6).head(-999999999999999999)
00:19 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«()␤»
00:19 AlexDaniel m: say (4,5,6).head(-9999999999999999999)
00:19 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«(4 5 6)␤»
00:19 babydrop Well volunteered!
00:20 lucasb m: say 'let it roll baby roll,'.roll(-1)
00:20 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«(let it roll baby roll, let it roll baby roll, let it roll baby roll, let it roll baby roll, let it roll baby roll, let it roll baby roll, let it roll baby roll, let it roll baby roll, let it roll baby roll, let it roll baby roll, let it roll baby roll, le…»
00:20 babydrop lucasb: you can fix that one :)
00:20 babydrop It's easy.
00:21 lucasb AlexDaniel++ I enjoy your bug reports. keep them coming
00:22 AlexDaniel thanks!
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00:30 AlexDaniel wait, what…
00:31 AlexDaniel bisect: old=2016.09 say (4,5,6).head(-9999999999999999999)
00:31 bisectable6 AlexDaniel, Bisecting by output (old=2016.09 new=4fd6e94) because on both starting points the exit code is 0
00:31 bisectable6 AlexDaniel, bisect log: https://gist.github.com/aa711737cdac63fa6d29d1c7aed86079
00:31 bisectable6 AlexDaniel, (2016-10-12) https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6996512e3c994fafa2d34e8c5c9bf9d25f0a0810
00:31 AlexDaniel bisect: old=2016.09 say (4,5,6).tail(-9999999999999999999)
00:31 bisectable6 AlexDaniel, Bisecting by exit code (old=2016.09 new=4fd6e94). Old exit code: 0
00:31 bisectable6 AlexDaniel, bisect log: https://gist.github.com/a16e3b9e00de523784344d9f3cfbc915
00:31 bisectable6 AlexDaniel, (2016-10-22) https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a3406cba841cd9ecdd3bda49b9a415381615961c
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00:44 babydrop committable6: 2015.07 sub f(::T) { say (T,) }; f(10)
00:44 committable6 babydrop, ¦«2015.07»: Method 'gist' not found for invocant of class 'T'␤  in sub f at /tmp/NnA1MD9qU9:1␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/NnA1MD9qU9:1␤ «exit code = 1»
00:44 babydrop fgzvsx d nbret
00:44 babydrop gah
00:44 babydrop There's nothing more infurriating than having copy-paste issues
00:45 babydrop szx vfdg
00:45 babydrop '<>GKM:RADEN
00:45 babydrop AlexDaniel: join #zofbot for a sec, I wanna show something and the copy-paste is annoying me
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00:54 AlexDaniel #zofbot is a weird place. People are hugely outnumbered by bots there, yet bots are abused constantly
00:55 babydrop hah
00:57 babydrop m: put class {}.^methods».name.grep: /say/
00:57 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«␤»
00:58 babydrop `say` is a method provided provided by Mu: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/4fd6e94/src/core/Mu.pm#L470
00:58 babydrop How come it doesn't show up in output?
00:59 babydrop m: put class {}.^methods(:all)».name.grep: /say/
00:59 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«say␤»
00:59 babydrop Forgot about that
01:02 babydrop New Advent Post: "Day 7 — Set In Your Ways: Perl 6’s Setty and Baggy Types": https://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2016/12/07/set-in-your-ways-perl-6s-setty-and-baggy-types/
01:02 babydrop .tell Technaton the blog post I mentioned a day ago, is up: https://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2016/12/07/set-in-your-ways-perl-6s-setty-and-baggy-types/
01:02 yoleaux2 babydrop: I'll pass your message to Technaton.
01:02 yoleaux babydrop: I'll pass your message to Technaton.
01:02 babydrop 0.o
01:02 babydrop yoleaux: why did you have to come back!
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01:11 AlexDaniel babydrop: “I’ll be using fancy-pants Unicode versions of operators and symbols in this post” yet no unicode quotes :E
01:11 lucasb I rakudobugged. thanks for the help AlexDaniel and babydrop!
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01:20 babydrop AlexDaniel: I don't like them.
01:20 AlexDaniel babydrop: who?
01:20 AlexDaniel bots?
01:20 AlexDaniel ah
01:20 AlexDaniel no
01:20 AlexDaniel quotes
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01:42 lucasb m: a.::
01:42 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤MVMArray: Can't pop from an empty array␤»
01:42 lucasb m: a.::(1)
01:42 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤cannot stringify this␤»
01:50 AlexDaniel cannot stringify what? :)
01:50 lucasb can't touch this
01:51 AlexDaniel lucasb: yea, both LTAs, not sure if there's anything else about it
01:52 AlexDaniel the biggest problem there is that there's no line number
01:52 AlexDaniel so good luck searching for the cause in your code, heh!
01:52 lucasb ok, I don't know if there's anything to do. I just don't like to see internal errors leaking
01:56 AlexDaniel lucasb: RT #129306 similar resolved ticket
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02:01 samcv naice. regarding the Atom/github syntax highlighter
02:02 samcv started the process of reforming the code so I in the future can just generate it for all the quoting constructs
02:02 samcv that's my future plan. so then it can support every quoting construct
02:02 samcv :)
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02:03 samcv and also make it easy to make a change in only one spot and have it affect all of them
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02:28 Herby_ o/
02:30 Herby_ Just wanted to say thanks to those who are writing for the 'Perl 6 Advent Calendar'. I'm enjoying the posts
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02:40 AlexDaniel bisect: say ‘hi’.indent(9999999999999999999)
02:40 bisectable6 AlexDaniel, Bisecting by exit code (old=2015.12 new=4fd6e94). Old exit code: 1
02:40 bisectable6 AlexDaniel, bisect log: https://gist.github.com/e26ea2e21999e3c9cb1092040eeffdcd
02:40 bisectable6 AlexDaniel, (2016-07-08) https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/586f7847dcac9bd81bcc5d4866c0d74545fb17e5
02:40 AlexDaniel MasterDuke: ↑, not that the old behavior was any better, but I'm still mentioning it because perhaps you want to be aware of this :)
02:41 MasterDuke interesting, i've never touched indent(). i guess it uses x() under the hood
02:46 AlexDaniel committable6: 2016.06,HEA Dsay ‘f’ x 9999999999999999999
02:46 committable6 AlexDaniel, ¦«2016.06»: ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/6XSmEtAG6t␤Undeclared name:␤    Dsay used at line 1␤ «exit code = 1»␤¦«HEA»: Cannot find this revision
02:46 AlexDaniel committable6: 2016.06,HEAD say ‘f’ x 9999999999999999999
02:46 committable6 AlexDaniel, ¦«2016.06»: repeat count (-8446744073709551617) cannot be negative␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/WttTnuZY7q line 1␤ «exit code = 1»␤¦«HEAD»:
02:46 AlexDaniel ya
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02:46 AlexDaniel committable6: 2016.06,HEAD say ‘f’ x -10
02:46 committable6 AlexDaniel, ¦«2016.06,HEAD»:
02:47 AlexDaniel MasterDuke: arguably the current behavior is better because the repeat count can actually be negative
02:47 AlexDaniel hahaha
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03:15 Herby_ Anyone here working puzzles from Advent of Code this year?
03:15 Herby_ http://adventofcode.com/
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03:22 cfa m: S/d// given 'abc'
03:22 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: ( no output )
03:22 cfa m: say S/d// given 'abc'
03:22 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«abc␤»
03:23 cfa m: say S:g/d// given 'abc'
03:23 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«()␤»
03:23 cfa bug?
03:23 cfa (or am i missing something regarding :g?)
03:25 AlexDaniel cfa: well…
03:25 AlexDaniel bisect: say S:g/d// given 'abc'
03:25 bisectable6 AlexDaniel, Bisecting by output (old=2015.12 new=4fd6e94) because on both starting points the exit code is 0
03:25 bisectable6 AlexDaniel, bisect log: https://gist.github.com/28dcb535797f4cd5272e62a9ad94386b
03:25 bisectable6 AlexDaniel, (2016-10-23) https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b7201a8f22338a906f2d8027a21387e8f5c77f41
03:26 AlexDaniel cfa: so yes, this is a bug
03:26 cfa AlexDaniel: thanks
03:26 cfa also, hello (sorry, i entered rather abruptly)
03:26 AlexDaniel cfa: and turns out there was no test for it so we did not catch its appearance
03:26 AlexDaniel cfa: will you submit a bug report?
03:26 cfa sure, where can i find information on filing one?
03:27 AlexDaniel huggable: bug
03:27 huggable AlexDaniel, nothing found
03:27 AlexDaniel huggable: rakudobug
03:27 huggable AlexDaniel, rakudobug@perl.org or use perl6 query on http://rt.perl.org ; see https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/#reporting-bugs
03:27 cfa AlexDaniel: thanks, i'll do so within the hour
03:27 AlexDaniel cfa: basically you just have to write an email to rakudobug@perl.org
03:27 * cfa nods
03:28 AlexDaniel cfa: please also note in your report that bisectable says that b7201a8f223 is the cause
03:28 AlexDaniel committable6: b7201a8f223^,b7201a8f223 say S:g/d// given 'abc'
03:28 committable6 AlexDaniel, ¦«b7201a8f223^»: abc␤¦«b7201a8»: ()
03:28 cfa will do
03:29 AlexDaniel babydrop: that will be a 6th [REGRESSION] ticket today :)
03:30 AlexDaniel cfa: and thanks for coming here, this is actually important
03:31 AlexDaniel … though it would've been better if you asked this question one month ago :)
03:32 AlexDaniel committable6: 2016.10,2016.11,HEAD say S:g/d// given 'abc'
03:32 committable6 AlexDaniel, ¦«2016.10»: abc␤¦«2016.11,HEAD»: ()
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03:45 cfa AlexDaniel: :)
03:47 tailgate m: my @directions = <N E S W>; say @directions.grep-index('E');
03:47 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«No such method 'grep-index' for invocant of type 'Array'␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
03:47 tailgate m: my List @directions = <N E S W>; say @directions.grep-index('E');
03:47 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to @directions; expected List but got Str ("N")␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
03:47 AlexDaniel tailgate: what's grep-index?
03:48 AlexDaniel m: my @directions = <N E S W>; say @directions.grep(‘E’, :k);
03:48 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«(1)␤»
03:48 tailgate doh
03:48 AlexDaniel ↑ that's what you want, I guess?
03:48 geekosaur the @ already says list; the type is that of elements
03:49 geekosaur (well, it says Positional, but that gets you List by default...)
03:50 tailgate yeah
03:53 cfa AlexDaniel: submitted
03:56 AlexDaniel cfa++
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04:06 AlexDaniel m: say <a b c>[*-18446744073709551618]
04:06 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«b␤»
04:06 AlexDaniel :-|
04:08 AlexDaniel wait, what
04:08 AlexDaniel m: my @a = <a b c>; @a[*-18446744073709551616]:delete; say @a
04:08 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«[a b c]␤»
04:08 AlexDaniel m: my @a = <a b c>; @a[*-18446744073709551617]:delete; say @a
04:08 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«[a b]␤»
04:08 AlexDaniel m: my @a = <a b c>; @a[*-18446744073709551618]:delete; say @a
04:08 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«[a (Any) c]␤»
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04:24 ugexe how do I submit my post for the advent?
04:30 samcv sweet :) i have the generation of all the q[] qq[] and Q[] constructs fully automated
04:31 samcv i have q<< >>, q (( )), q[[ ]], q<< >>, q/ /, q{ }, q ' ', q" "
04:32 samcv what more to add now? now i only have to add them to the list and it'll generate it for me. very happy with this
04:32 samcv no more copy pasting
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05:13 samcv Wow. ok i finally got using any delimiter you want (same char) like q%this%.
05:13 samcv this is coming together really well
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05:46 asdasadasdasd hi
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05:47 asdasadasdasd whats the use of sub usage (;$)?
05:49 samcv ?
05:51 samcv asdasadasdasd, explain?
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06:54 samcv m: sub circumfix:<⟅ ⟆> ( Mu $a ) is raw { bag($a) }; say ⟅'test'⟆
06:54 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«bag(test)␤»
06:54 samcv u: ⟅
06:54 samcv u: bag delimiter
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07:09 moritz samcv: re rakudo.org, please /msg me your email address
07:09 samcv awesome
07:09 samcv messaged
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07:11 moritz invitation sent
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07:17 seatek m: sub t(*%h) { say 'hi' }; my $a = 'key1'; my $b = 'key2'; t($a => 1, $b => 2);
07:17 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«Too many positionals passed; expected 0 arguments but got 2␤  in sub t at <tmp> line 1␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
07:17 seatek m: sub t(*%h) { say 'hi' }; my $a = 'key1'; my $b = 'key2'; t(a => 1, b => 2);
07:17 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«hi␤»
07:17 seatek i had no idea that would happen :)
07:18 seatek is there a way to pass a variable key name in that form? i may have gone brain dead too.
07:20 seatek m: sub t(*%h) { say 'hi' }; my $a = 'key1'; my $b = 'key2'; t({$a => 1, $b => 2});
07:20 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«Too many positionals passed; expected 0 arguments but got 1␤  in sub t at <tmp> line 1␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
07:20 seatek m: sub t(*%h) { say 'hi' }; my $a = 'key1'; my $b = 'key2'; t(($a => 1, $b => 2));
07:20 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«Too many positionals passed; expected 0 arguments but got 1␤  in sub t at <tmp> line 1␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
07:20 seatek m: sub t(*%h) { say 'hi' }; my $a = 'key1'; my $b = 'key2'; t(({$a => 1, $b => 2}));
07:20 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«Too many positionals passed; expected 0 arguments but got 1␤  in sub t at <tmp> line 1␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
07:20 seatek :)
07:21 seatek m: sub t(*%h) { say 'hi' }; my $a = 'key1'; my $b = 'key2'; t('a' => 1, 'b' => 2);
07:21 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«Too many positionals passed; expected 0 arguments but got 2␤  in sub t at <tmp> line 1␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
07:21 seatek m: sub t(*%h) { say 'hi' }; my $a = 'key1'; my $b = 'key2'; t(a => 1, b => 2);
07:21 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«hi␤»
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07:23 ufobat m: sub t(*%h) { say dd %h }; my $a = "key1"; my $b = "key2"; t(|{"a" => 1, "b" => 2});
07:23 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«{:a(1), :b(2)}␤Nil␤»
07:24 seatek oh, do the thingy! hadn't tried that ;)
07:25 seatek yes that works :) thanks ufobat++ ! :)
07:25 ufobat wow, the first time i could help someone!
07:26 seatek ah, the unfurling pipe solves every problem ;)
07:26 seatek well glad it was me! :)
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09:08 pmurias hi
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09:11 samcv hmm it seems that not all the same delimiters that are ok for q[] work for #`[ multi line comments. hmm
09:11 samcv m: #`“ comment ” say 'hi'
09:11 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«hi␤»
09:11 samcv hmm or maybe
09:12 samcv maybe i messed up
09:12 samcv yeah they seem to work. never mind
09:12 samcv good that saves me trouble
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09:22 dalek mu: 6aa6800 | ab5tract++ | misc/perl6advent-2016/schedule:
09:22 dalek mu: Add myself to the calendar
09:22 dalek mu:
09:22 dalek mu: I took the last slot due to tuits and theme (snow on Christmas Eve, no
09:22 dalek mu: matter where you live). The post I displaced explicitly told me to remove
09:22 dalek mu: itself from the listing.
09:22 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/6aa680009c
09:30 dalek doc: 71eb971 | titsuki++ | doc/Language/syntax.pod6:
09:30 dalek doc: Delete >>.say
09:30 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/71eb97181c
09:30 dalek doc: 7b3c1d0 | titsuki++ | doc/Language/syntax.pod6:
09:30 dalek doc: Merge pull request #1037 from titsuki/fix-hyper-say
09:30 dalek doc:
09:30 dalek doc: Delete >>.say
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09:30 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/7b3c1d0284
09:31 timotimo yes
09:31 timotimo good idea
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10:00 pmurias TimToady: should 2**9999999999999999999999 return Inf or raise an X::Numeric::Overflow exception?
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10:11 DrForr X::Numeric::You'veGottaBeKiddingMe
10:12 jnthn X::Numeric::FFS::Man::There'sLessAtomsInTheUniverse
10:12 DrForr There's only 10**86 or so, IIRC.
10:13 jnthn m: say  10**86 < 2**9999999999999999999999
10:13 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«Numeric overflow␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
10:13 jnthn oh heh :)
10:13 jnthn m: say  10**86 < 2**999999999999999999999
10:13 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«Numeric overflow␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
10:13 jnthn m: say  10**86 < 2**9999999999999999999
10:13 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«Numeric overflow␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
10:13 jnthn m: say  10**86 < 2**999999999999
10:13 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«Numeric overflow␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
10:13 jnthn Wow :)
10:13 jnthn m: say  10**86 < 2**9999999999
10:13 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«Numeric overflow␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
10:13 jnthn m: say  10**86 < 2**999999
10:13 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«True␤»
10:13 jnthn Yeah, OK, now I see how big that number is :D
10:18 samcv i don't think it should return Inf.. that just sounds like more trouble
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10:29 AlexDaniel pmurias: well, TimToady was the one who added X::Numeric::Overflow for this case
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10:36 pmurias AlexDaniel: yes, but the implementation depends on a bug
10:37 AlexDaniel which bug?
10:39 pmurias pow_I is broken
10:39 pmurias nqp::pow_I
10:40 pmurias on all backends (js, moar, jvm)
10:40 pmurias in different ways :(
10:40 pmurias j: say((-1) * 999999999)
10:40 camelia rakudo-jvm 8ca367: OUTPUT«-999999999␤»
10:41 pmurias j: say((2) * 9999999999999999999998)
10:41 camelia rakudo-jvm 8ca367: OUTPUT«19999999999999999999996␤»
10:41 AlexDaniel m: say((-1) * 999999999)
10:41 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«-999999999␤»
10:42 AlexDaniel m: say((-1) ** 999999999)
10:42 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«-1␤»
10:42 AlexDaniel … right …
10:43 pmurias j: say((2) ** 99999999999998)
10:43 camelia rakudo-jvm 8ca367: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
10:43 pmurias j: say((2) ** 99999999999997)
10:43 camelia rakudo-jvm 8ca367: OUTPUT«-Inf␤»
10:43 AlexDaniel by the way, *able6 bots are down because they cannot connect for some reason
10:43 pmurias AlexDaniel: ^^ # why is this -Inf?
10:44 AlexDaniel pmurias: no, this is definitely broken
10:45 AlexDaniel the whole point of the fix was to make sure it does not return shit like this :)
10:46 AlexDaniel https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=125811
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10:48 AlexDaniel pmurias: wait, actually, what is the problem exactly?
10:48 AlexDaniel (-1) ** stuff seems to be working fine
10:49 AlexDaniel and everything else too
10:49 AlexDaniel on moarvm at least
10:49 AlexDaniel not on JVM, but isn't it a problem of jvm? :)
10:49 AlexDaniel *backend
10:50 pmurias m: say((-1) ** 99999999999999999999999999999999999999998);
10:50 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«Numeric overflow␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
10:51 masak pmurias: I think most operations on doubles that overflow return Inf rather than throwing an exception.
10:51 AlexDaniel well, are you saying that this is LTA?
10:52 masak no, I'm saying that there's IEEE 754 precedent -- and it makes sense to follow it
10:52 AlexDaniel that was the question to pmurias actually
10:53 seatek my first reaction was to return unicode crying cats, but that sounds better probably.
10:53 AlexDaniel (if (-1) ** somethinghuge should throw instead of returning -1 or 1)
10:54 masak that one feels to me like a NaN-returning operation
10:54 masak but my intuition might be off here
10:55 DrForr I wouldn't expect there to be any special casing for odd/even integers if the actual number would ordinarily be outside integer range.
10:55 masak I'm probably basing that on "the corresponding sequence doesn't converge", which makes NaN reasonable
10:55 masak DrForr: even in the presence of bigints? is it difficult to find out if a huge bigint is odd or even?
10:57 DrForr Well, my reasoning is just that if you're using (-1)**$n, then you're going to be doing something else with $n that will carry *that* into NaN territory.
10:58 AlexDaniel m: say((-1) ** 4294967295)
10:58 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«-1␤»
10:58 AlexDaniel m: say((-1) ** 4294967296)
10:58 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«Numeric overflow␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
10:58 AlexDaniel m: say((1) ** 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999)
10:58 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«1␤»
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11:01 AlexDaniel uummmmmmmmmmm
11:01 dalek doc: 905377f | Altai-man++ | doc/Type/ (3 files):
11:01 dalek doc: Minor fixes: missing whitespace, redundant brackets, redundant `is export`.
11:01 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/905377f266
11:02 AlexDaniel m: say (42 ** 999).chars
11:02 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«1622␤»
11:02 AlexDaniel m: say (42 ** 999.0).chars
11:02 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«3␤»
11:02 babydrop asdasadasdasd: that looks like a Perl 5 prototype. Try asking in #perl
11:02 AlexDaniel m: say 42 ** 999.0
11:02 camelia rakudo-moar 4fd6e9: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
11:03 AlexDaniel this is probably expected, but it did surprise me a bit
11:03 DrForr Or put differently, tacking (-1)**$n onto a term isn't likely to matter because the rest of the term based on $n will probably already be overflowing.
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11:19 arnsholt DrForr: Well, that'd depend on whether the rest of the term is sub-linear in $n or linear or whatever =)
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11:23 babydrop Man, I wish brian would at least pop into this channel and just drop his code in for 2 seconds before writing his "tips". https://www.learningperl6.com/2016/12/05/quick-tip-20-way-off-base/
11:23 babydrop That sprintf concoction is awful.
11:23 babydrop And in the comments they uglify it even more to workaround a Failure.
11:24 babydrop In 2 seconds in this channel, someone would say "hey, how about you write that as @*ARGS[0].parse-base(8).base(2) instead"
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11:24 babydrop GRUMBLE!
11:24 babydrop </uncoffeenated-rant>
11:25 arnsholt parse-base is pretty new
11:25 arnsholt I remember the discussion of it, a month ago maybe?
11:25 babydrop star: "22".parse-base(8).base(2).say
11:25 camelia star-m 2016.10: OUTPUT«No such method 'parse-base' for invocant of type 'Str'␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
11:25 AlexDaniel babydrop: I agree
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11:25 babydrop committable6_: 2016.11 "22".parse-base(8).base(2).say
11:25 committable6_ babydrop, ¦«2016.11»: 10010
11:25 babydrop arnsholt: it's in latest star at least
11:26 babydrop The problem is many people view brian as a knowledgeable authority and eat up all his tips as top-shelf goodies
11:27 AlexDaniel and it is kinda scary because he is writing a book…
11:27 babydrop At least the book will be reviewed
11:27 AlexDaniel 🤷
11:28 El_Che If the tone is friendly, I am pretty sure he'll appreciate the input
11:28 babydrop u: 🤷
11:28 unicodable6 babydrop, U+1F937 SHRUG [So] (🤷)
11:28 El_Che (not "pretty sure", but I hope)
11:28 babydrop El_Che: on what? the tip is published already
11:28 dalek doc/consistent-return-types: 40a97e3 | Altai-man++ | doc/Type/ (2 files):
11:28 dalek doc/consistent-return-types: Changes need to resolve a merge conflict.
11:28 dalek doc/consistent-return-types: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/40a97e39d7
11:28 dalek doc/consistent-return-types: ae816b9 | Altai-man++ | t/return-type.t:
11:28 dalek doc/consistent-return-types: Temporary test file deletion
11:28 dalek doc/consistent-return-types: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/ae816b9600
11:29 El_Che babydrop: I mean that the tip can be edited as it's not set in stone
11:35 babydrop Well, I left the .parse-base version in the comments.
11:36 babydrop Tho not in "the tone is friendly" :}
11:37 lucasb I don't see, the comments must be moderated
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11:38 travis-ci Doc build failed. Altai-man 'Temporary test file deletion'
11:38 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/181930636 https://github.com/perl6/doc/compare/88c2f5fcfdaf...ae816b9600c7
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11:39 lucasb book author isolated from collective community knowledge and best practices?
11:39 babydrop lucasb: just for his "tips". The private book repo has several of core hackers added to oversee stuff
11:40 lucasb ah, alright. I feels happy with this fact
11:40 babydrop Yeah, the comment says "awaiting moderation". I just wrote The much simpler way to write that is as: @*ARGS[0].parse-base(8).base(2) Instead of that ugly sprintf concoction. .parse-base also handles negative numbers, unlike the :16() radix literal syntax.
11:41 CIAvash another example is https://www.learningperl6.com/2016/11/20/the-z-zip-operator-lazy-ranges-and-terse-hash-creation/ it may give the idea that it is the way to do it. unfortunately, I replied on twitter instead of commenting. fortunately TimToady mentioned the better way of doing it
11:41 CIAvash but not everyone is going to read the comments
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11:48 pmurias masak: (-1) ** $big-number being NaN seems like the worst option possible
11:51 lucasb BTW, babydrop++ for making syntax-highlighted post
11:52 babydrop pmurias: why NaN? I see masak mentioning Inf
11:53 babydrop oh nm
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11:54 babydrop the IEEE says overflows give the Inf with sign of the limit, but I don't how we can figure out a sign here, so maybe it is specialcased to something else
11:55 babydrop m: say (-125)**(1/3)
11:55 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
11:55 * babydrop rather see this DTRT than NaN :D
11:55 babydrop m: say (my num $ = -1) ** (my num $ = 999)
11:55 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native number: P6opaque, Int␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
11:55 babydrop m: say (my num $ = -1e0) ** (my num $ = 999e0)
11:55 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«-1␤»
11:56 babydrop m: say (my num $ = -1e0) ** (my num $ = 1.4e308)
11:56 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«1␤»
11:57 babydrop hm, right 'cause we don't have enough precision for the last digits, it'll always be an even number so we can assume a 1 on super large numbers
11:57 babydrop oh wait
11:57 babydrop m: say (my num $ = -1e0) ** ((my num $ = 1.4e308) + (my num $ = 1))
11:57 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native number: P6opaque, Int␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
11:57 babydrop m: say (my num $ = -1e0) ** ((my num $ = 1.4e308) + (my num $ = 1e0))
11:57 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«1␤»
11:57 babydrop Well, the power is calcualated first and it ain't got enough precision still... so... it sorta-kinda makes sense? :D
11:57 pmurias babydrop: isn't it -Inf if the base is negative and the exponent is odd?
11:58 pmurias babydrop: we are talking about bigints here
11:59 broquaint m: sub($x) { "got $x" }((1,2))
11:59 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Variable '$x' is not declared␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3sub(7⏏5$x) { "got $x" }((1,2))␤»
11:59 babydrop pmurias: we'd should check IEEE 754, it goes pretty well into defining powers
11:59 broquaint Can anonymous subs have signatures?
12:00 babydrop pmurias: it may list -1 ** Inf as a spoecial case
12:00 DrForr m: return sub($x){$x++}
12:00 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Variable '$x' is not declared␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3return sub(7⏏5$x){$x++}␤»
12:00 babydrop broquaint: put space after `sub`
12:00 broquaint m: sub ($x) { "got $x" }((1,2))
12:00 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: ( no output )
12:00 babydrop broquaint: otherwise it thinks you're trying to call a function named sub()
12:00 broquaint babydrop: Thanks!
12:00 DrForr Shouldn't do this while I'm looking at perl5 code :)
12:02 babydrop IEEE 754: http://www.csee.umbc.edu/~tsimo1/CMSC455/IEEE-754-2008.pdf
12:02 babydrop search for pow to find the powers stuff
12:02 * babydrop runs to catch the bus
12:02 pmurias babydrop: it's not -1 ** Inf it's -1 ** (number we arbitrarily decided is too big)
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12:02 broquaint m: sub ($x) { say "got $x $x.WHAT" }((1,2))
12:02 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«got 1 2 1 2.WHAT␤»
12:03 babydrop pmurias: and "too big" is Inf with the sign of the limit
12:03 broquaint I'm failing to grok string interpolation :/
12:03 babydrop m: sub ($x) { say "got $x $x.WHAT()" }((1,2))
12:03 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value of type List in string context.␤Methods .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can be used to stringify it to something meaningful.␤  in sub  at <tmp> line 1␤got 1 2 ␤»
12:03 babydrop m: sub ($x) { say "got $x $x.^name()" }((1,2))
12:03 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«got 1 2 List␤»
12:03 babydrop broquaint: you need () on methods
12:03 broquaint babydrop: Thanks again :)
12:03 babydrop and .WHAT returns a type object which is undefined and doesn't stringify well
12:06 broquaint Good to know :)
12:14 babydrop m: say (-1)**Inf
12:14 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«1␤»
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12:14 babydrop m: say (-1)**-Inf
12:14 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«1␤»
12:14 babydrop oh right
12:15 babydrop pmurias, so I guess the super large power would always result in 1
12:16 pmurias babydrop: no, "too big" is a big integer bigger than 2**32
12:17 babydrop I missed the start of this discussion, but how come we are arbitrarily deciding thw number is too big? Doesn't even P5 let you have numbers as big as your ram or something?
12:17 pmurias m: say( (-1) ** 17179869184)
12:17 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«Numeric overflow␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
12:18 pmurias babydrop: P5 doesn't have builtin bigints
12:18 babydrop ok
12:19 pmurias babydrop: we make that decision to prevent things because 2 ** 17179869184 is too big a number to store naively in ram
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12:21 pmurias babydrop: you might actually fit in that one but if the exponent gets a bit bigger it won't fit for sure
12:21 babydrop pmurias, yet it behaves like I described: treating uber large numbers as Inf http://i.imgur.com/Bw3oPvh.png
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12:25 babydrop the first one that still gave -1 seems to be even bigger than what ours dies with
12:25 pmurias babydrop: P5 turns big integers into doubles
12:25 babydrop ah
12:25 babydrop ok
12:26 ggoebel slightly off topic question... a while back someone posted a url to a web based "learn to program" site which taught a programming (javascript I think) by having you learn enough code to escape increasingly difficult ascii art prisons. Does anyone remember what that site was? I think one of my teenagers might really like that approach.
12:27 pmurias babydrop: I'll just fix (-1)**$big-number to return the proper answer
12:28 babydrop pmurias, which one is it?
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12:34 moritz 1 if $big-number is even, -1 if it's odd
12:37 babydrop so even if the number is too big to handle we still can figure out its oddness? weird
12:39 babydrop or should I say that's... odd :D
12:42 DrForr Well, we'd need the string representation, figure out its base and work from that; I ... won't make the other comment(s) that I ordinarily would.
12:42 babydrop What comments?
12:43 ggoebel found it... https://alexnisnevich.github.io/untrusted/
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12:47 * DrForr returns to watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wfR4hRE9zk while trying to get some work done.
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13:01 El_Che DrForr: it's safer than doing some glass blowing while trying to look at your code
13:02 DrForr With my code? Not by much. :)
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13:05 ggoebel safer than a tesla lightning gun... https://youtu.be/_fTC_Ud_k3U
13:05 ggoebel skip to 5m30s
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13:12 lucasb can the output of 'perl -h' be de-indented 4 spaces?
13:12 lucasb https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/src/Perl6/Compiler.nqp#L66
13:13 lucasb just strip the 4 space indentation from that string
13:13 lucasb or use a heredoc, if the literal code layout matters
13:14 babydrop lucasb: would you submit a PR?
13:14 lucasb idk if heredoc was not used in the first place because of some optimization or limitation of using heredocs in NQP
13:14 lucasb babydrop: which version do you prefer? stripped indetation with quotes or heredocs?
13:15 ilmari .oO( indented heredocs? )
13:16 lucasb about .indent($negative-number)
13:17 babydrop lucasb: I don't think heredocs work in nqp (or I've just tried wrong). I'd be OK with the message just moved in source code flush to the left side
13:17 babydrop nqp: "  x".indent(-1)
13:17 camelia nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«Cannot find method 'indent': no method cache and no .^find_method␤   at <tmp>:1  (<ephemeral file>:<mainline>)␤ from gen/moar/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1536  (/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/nqp/lib/NQPHLL.moarvm:eval)␤ from gen/moar/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1739  (/ho…»
13:17 Skarsnik hello, here some result of my perf test: https://gist.github.com/Skarsnik/e2d531f1095e12fb1d8bc0646ad1d89f not sure how useful is that x)
13:17 lucasb m: say "  foo\n  bar".indent(-2)
13:17 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«foo␤bar␤»
13:17 [Coke] ggoebel++ # was probably me. I've lost a few hours to that site. :)
13:17 lucasb m: say "  foo\n\n  bar".indent(-2)
13:17 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«foo␤␤bar␤»
13:18 babydrop lucasb: src/Perl6/Compiler.nqp is nqp code, tho, isn't it?
13:18 lucasb babydrop: yes, nqp. I'll just strip the indentation then
13:18 babydrop lucasb: I guess I should've asked first... how come we're de-denting it?
13:19 lucasb babydrop: sorry, didn't understand. was a joke? :)
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13:20 babydrop lucasb: lol, no. I mean what's the reason for this change? To make prettier or was there another reason?
13:20 lucasb well :) I pay attention to the output of "program --help" messages
13:21 babydrop heh
13:21 babydrop lucasb: OK. Well, submit a PR :)
13:21 lucasb when I saw the 4 spaces indentation... it looked strange
13:21 lucasb but yes, just a stylistic, cosmetic change
13:22 babydrop Sounds good
13:22 lucasb back to negative de-indent...
13:22 lucasb m: say "  foo\n \n  bar".indent(-2)
13:22 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«Asked to remove 2 spaces, but the shortest indent is 1 spaces␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤foo␤␤bar␤»
13:23 lucasb "  foo\n\n  bar".indent(-2)   # empty line, no warnings
13:23 lucasb "  foo\n \n  bar".indent(-2)   # line with white space, warnings
13:23 babydrop Skarsnik: yeah, lizmat++ did lots of magicks around 0.6 and we saw a huge drop: https://twitter.com/zoffix/status/796810512986238978
13:24 babydrop lucasb: that makes sense to me.
13:24 babydrop (the warning)
13:24 lucasb ok, for a second I thought about being more permissive with blank lines made just of whitespace characters
13:25 * babydrop is getting distracted again with IRC /o\
13:25 lucasb but, it's ok, I accept the warning
13:25 Skarsnik babydrop, I think it's still very slow for what I am testing ^^
13:26 AlexDaniel joined #perl6
13:26 Skarsnik 1.2 sec to create 6000 objects is not that great x) (for the gumbo test)
13:26 babydrop Skarsnik: yup. Would be nice to have more hands doing core hacking.
13:27 Skarsnik and I will probably use a libxml2 binding for gptrixie because 20 sec is annoying when debugging stuff x)
13:31 pmurias http://news.perlfoundation.org/2016/12/grant-proposal-learning-perl-6.html - brain d foy's grant proposal
13:32 moritz uhm, what?
13:32 moritz the kickstarter I can understand
13:32 moritz but kickstarter *and* tpf grant?
13:33 DrForr Uh...
13:33 lucasb With all this much funding, I hope the book will be freely downloadable from the internet
13:33 * DrForr falls out of his chair laughing.
13:33 AlexDaniel O_o
13:34 moritz that's just not good style
13:34 nicq20 joined #perl6
13:35 babydrop that's bullshit
13:35 moritz first doing the kickstarter, saying "hey, I need some money so that I can write a Perl 6 book". So people fund it. And then, "oh, btw, I need money to write a Perl 6 book"
13:35 wamba joined #perl6
13:36 * moritz will sleep over it for a day before commenting on the blog
13:36 lucasb will both this book and the "Think Perl 6" one be published by oreilly then?
13:36 AlexDaniel can we instead give this money to gfldex for his work on the docs?…
13:36 babydrop Indeed.
13:36 cognominal joined #perl6
13:36 babydrop And based on brian's "tips" most of the work for the book will be done by, ahem, "self-selected backers"
13:36 lucasb (well, oreilly has released some free books in the past)
13:37 AlexDaniel sorry, but this is fucked up
13:37 moritz or me, to motivate by book efforts some more? :-)
13:37 babydrop Yeah
13:37 babydrop Well, unlike the moritz's more rational approach, I will comment right now with the emotions driving me pen!
13:38 AlexDaniel babydrop: actually there is some text trying to explain the situation
13:39 moritz there is
13:39 moritz but it's still fucked up
13:39 babydrop It's the same bullshit he peddled when people asked him wtf he was kickstarting a book when O'Reilly is publisher
13:39 moritz the kickstarter was there to raise the money to write the book
13:39 moritz the kickstarter is funded
13:39 babydrop Yes.
13:39 moritz why can't that be enough to write the book?
13:40 moritz if it's not, then that's brian's error, and not something the TPF should square for him
13:40 AlexDaniel .oO( more money = better book? )
13:40 AlexDaniel u: facepalm
13:40 AlexDaniel u: face palm
13:40 babydrop And why was the proposal made the day after kickstarter got funded? He waited for it, to ensure people were on the hook for 37 grand before being pissed off
13:40 unicodable6 AlexDaniel, Found nothing!
13:40 unicodable6 AlexDaniel, U+1F926 FACE PALM [So] (🤦)
13:41 AlexDaniel how many grants were rejected?
13:42 moritz a few
13:42 lucasb moritz: the hyperlinks in the book mailing lists came all changed by click tracking, no?
13:42 moritz lucasb: yes, I'm afraid; the mailchimp free tier doesn't allow me to disable that :/
13:42 lucasb moritz: ok
13:43 pmurias babydrop: the TPF didn't always publish grant proposal instantly in the past
13:45 babydrop pmurias: noted
13:45 seatek i agree that would be a bad allocation of money. much better spent paying for work on core stuff
13:46 lucasb moritz: your blog posts and consequently the book you intend to write will be all written in POD5 (or Pod6) ?
13:47 sufrostico joined #perl6
13:49 prammer joined #perl6
13:49 perlpilot er ... what?
13:50 perlpilot I think I would rather TPF give $$$ to moritz or gfldex or some *other* voice writing Perl 6 docs/books/tutorials/etc rather than give a big chunk to bdf who already has a kickstarted funded.
13:50 moritz lucasb: nope, Markdown so far
13:51 mspo I thought asciidoc was the go-to for books
13:51 lucasb moritz: ah, ok
13:51 seatek i agree. or why not spend 1/5th that amount and get someone to come up with a manageable installer that's easy for people, to do as a local user or system-wide. That's like a fundamental operational thing that should be there for people so they can actually deploy stuff
13:51 moritz seatek: want to write one? apply for a grant!
13:51 moritz I'd support *that*
13:51 moritz making Rakudo reloctable
13:51 cdg joined #perl6
13:52 seatek i would feel guilty taking money for something liket hat
13:52 moritz mspo: it might be, but LeanPub supports markdown + git + results in Dropbox + selling through the website, and I didn't want to take ownership of any toolchain myself
13:52 AlexDaniel joined #perl6
13:53 * arnsholt is picky enough that for a book it'd be RST, plus custom plugins to do TikZ figures
13:53 mspo moritz: I think oreilly and no-starch are both asciidoc based
13:53 babydrop what's the word for the typical way to write code?
13:53 mspo moritz: markdown is a little.. lacking?
13:53 arnsholt (Or just writing LaTeX directly, but that's less useful for producing e-versions)
13:54 mspo babydrop: canonical
13:54 babydrop mspo: thanks!
13:54 arnsholt Idiomatic perhaps?
13:54 mspo idiomatic is also good
13:54 arnsholt Canonical sounds a bit overly "one true way" to me
13:54 mspo normative
13:55 arnsholt That's the word! =D
13:55 mspo arnsholt: I have exactly the same reaction to "idiomatic" :)
13:55 DrForr Back when I was originally working with ORA they were accepting LaTeX but that had to be converted to PDF or Word through their markup chain.
13:55 babydrop mspo: oh idiomatic! yeah
13:56 arnsholt TBH, I prefer writing LaTeX over markdown and friends
13:56 mspo golang loves "idiomatic"
13:59 sena_kun is there a list of characters/escape sequences that can be used to wrap a string literal?
14:00 seatek for the book grant -- he says books sales aren't what they used to be. that means people aren't buying books as much. so why should tpf pay for books to be written about p6? he kinda gives the best argument against funding that grant himself
14:00 DrForr sena_kun: Sure, there's a section called 'quoting' in the docs.
14:00 [Coke] note that the timing on the grant proposal is out of bdf's control. there is a gap between submittal and publication.
14:01 sena_kun DrForr, ah, thanks.
14:01 pierre_ joined #perl6
14:01 DrForr [Coke]: Yes, having written at least one myself there's a process that's been gone through here.
14:02 moritz arnsholt: I like latex for scientific stuff, but I find it painful when using many code examples
14:03 moritz also, if the toolchain is under my control, I'm under constant compulsion to tweak the result
14:03 moritz when it's not, there's only so much I can do, and I spend the rest of the time actually writing stuff :-)
14:04 synopsebot6 joined #perl6
14:05 prammer joined #perl6
14:06 [Coke] DrForr: yes, I was addressing others in the backlog who were concerned with the timing.
14:07 DrForr Ah.
14:07 [Coke] (thanks for confirming)
14:09 nicq20 So, I remember a small discussion here about using a ':' in place of '{ }' on certain things. Is that mentioned anywhere in the docs?
14:10 nicq20 Can't seem to find the discussion though...
14:10 timotimo : doesn't replace { }, it replaces ( )
14:12 nicq20 timotimo: That explains why I'm having some trouble understanding it....
14:12 [Coke] Note that I've seen very few grant requests come in for perl 6 projects through the normal grant request process. (most have been tied to the one-time Hague grant, or to the new core maintenance fund)
14:13 nicq20 timotimo: Is it mentioned in the docs though?
14:14 timotimo i don't know
14:15 moritz m: say "foo\x[ab]"
14:15 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«foo«␤»
14:15 moritz m: say "foo\x[bar]"
14:15 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Unrecognized backslash sequence: '\x'␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3say "foo\x[ba7⏏5r]"␤    expecting any of:␤        argument list␤        double quotes␤        hex character␤        term␤»
14:17 nicq20 So if ':' replaces '( )', why can I do something like `do: say "hi";`?
14:18 seatek nicq20 it's like for function/method calls -- $these.things: 4, 5, 9;
14:18 seatek and other stuff. it's kinda mashed up around all over ;)
14:19 nicq20 Huh, ok. TIMTOWTDI?
14:19 arnsholt moritz: -Oproductivity is definitely an excellent idea! =)
14:20 moritz nicq20: : doesn't generally replace (), it's just for methods calls
14:21 nicq20 So if it's just for method calls why does it work for other things?
14:21 seatek well, why does a '-' work for more than one thing?
14:21 pmurias .seen TheLemonMan
14:21 yoleaux I saw TheLemonMan 6 Sep 2016 14:07Z in #perl6: <TheLemonMan> ugexe, zef's working perfectly so far :)
14:22 nicq20 seatek: Because it's overloaded I guess?
14:23 pyrimidine joined #perl6
14:23 nicq20 seatek: Oh! nm, I see what you mean.
14:23 seatek colons can be used for stuff like $this<key>:exists ??
14:24 seatek or for my::class::here
14:24 seatek just meant to make  stuff look easy to read where it makes sense, for you and the compiler
14:25 seatek sometimes $this.thing: here, there;   looks better, and sometimes $this.thing(here, there) looks better or is more readable
14:26 nicq20 seatek: Hmm. Ok, that makes sense. I might try to write some docs for it then. Any ideas as to where in the code to start looking for it?
14:26 seatek no, i'm a USER ;)
14:28 moritz nicq20: src/Perl6/Grammar.pm
14:28 pyrimidine joined #perl6
14:28 moritz possibly postfixish is a good starting point
14:28 nicq20 moritz: Thank you!
14:29 seatek i love being a user. it's so relaxing
14:29 seatek someone bring me a mai tai
14:29 nicq20 seatek: ikr
14:29 moritz nicq20: acutally, token methodop
14:30 seatek :)
14:31 babydrop nicq20: run some code with --target=parse, it'll list tokens in src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp
14:31 seatek does rakudo have to worry about building/installing on the BSDs?
14:32 babydrop what do you mean by "have to worry"? :)
14:32 [Coke] Still 2-3 gaps in the advent calendar. First gap is 2-3 days out!
14:32 seatek hehe i was going to leave that up for interpretation ;)
14:32 moritz babydrop: ah, good idea. In this case it seems to confirm my suspicion that methodop parses the method call
14:32 babydrop seatek: we support as many platforms as there are volunteers willing to make it work on
14:33 moritz seatek: if I remember correctly, rakudo works on FreeBSD
14:33 seatek i don't know anything about their hierarchies
14:33 seatek nor very little about the windowses
14:33 [Coke] It would be great if people who are booked for days 12-24 could move their post sooner so the gaps are later, giving us more time to fill them.
14:33 [Coke] (or maybe just 12-23)
14:34 moritz [Coke]++ # ringing the advent calendar drum
14:34 seatek is most of the current install base linux-y?
14:35 moritz seatek: yes. And some Windows, some MacOS
14:35 babydrop [Coke]: I have an already-written post ready to go for any spot. I just don't list it on the schedule to make empty spots visible.
14:35 babydrop So if there's a gap, I can fill it.
14:35 dalek mu: e8d1490 | (Will Coleda)++ | misc/perl6advent-2016/schedule:
14:35 dalek mu: remove published note on day 1
14:35 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/e8d1490b90
14:35 seatek moritz: i tried recently on windows and it was very problemmatic to get a good environment that included git as well, which seems necessary and is separate
14:36 moritz seatek: I know; windows for developers is still a bit PITA
14:36 moritz seatek: that's why I'm glad there rakudo .msi's for download
14:37 sufrostico joined #perl6
14:38 huggable joined #perl6
14:38 sufrosti1o joined #perl6
14:38 seatek moritz: yeah. i'll try playing around with some linux-based install choices if i get the time, just to see what's involved. i have a feeling with all the insane compile cacheing that it's not super simple
14:39 seatek and with that kind of cacheing, permissions are certainly an issue.
14:39 moritz seatek: one of the real blockers for a versatile installer is that rakudo isn't relocatable
14:39 moritz that is, you need to know where it's going to be installed *by the time you compile rakudo*
14:40 lizmat joined #perl6
14:40 seatek this might be a little fun. i'll need to tackle it here for myself anyway
14:40 seatek eventually
14:42 seatek might be a good excuse to finally poke at some bsd too
14:42 cognominal joined #perl6
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14:52 babydrop m: say 43.pick(-1)
14:52 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«MVMArray: Index out of bounds␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
14:52 babydrop m: say 43.roll(-1)
14:52 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«(43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 …»
14:52 babydrop Throw or treat as zero?
14:52 moritz throw
14:52 babydrop OK.
14:53 moritz in fact, I'd do it as a where-constraint on the argument
14:53 babydrop tis slow :(
14:54 babydrop m: for ^100_000 { sub (Int) {}(42) }; say now - INIT now;
14:54 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«0.11964007␤»
14:54 babydrop m: for ^100_000 { sub (UInt) {}(42) }; say now - INIT now;
14:54 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«0.5588977␤»
14:55 babydrop m: for ^100_000 { sub (Int $x) {?($x > 1)}(42) }; say now - INIT now;
14:55 camelia rakudo-moar b2ac4e: OUTPUT«0.12155607␤»
14:55 babydrop >= 0 I mean
14:55 jnthn You'd need to include an actual throw to really compare though
14:55 timotimo and invoke the throw, too, not just go via the good path :)
14:55 jnthn Well, not invoke it on the good case :)
14:55 babydrop jnthn: but I'm comparing the common good case
14:55 _ramix_ Hi. I have the https://modules.perl6.org/dist/FileSystem::Capacity module in the ecosystem. I would like to add a vbs script in the /bin directory to be able to run it from the same module with run or shell. It's possible? How could I do it? Thanks!
14:55 timotimo :D
14:56 babydrop It becomes 5 times slower, just to exclude the uncommon bad case
14:56 moritz :(
14:56 jnthn babydrop: For sure, but there's a tad more to it than that.
14:57 timotimo we could teach the binding lowerer about unsigned ints - might want to introduce a new primitive for that?
14:57 jnthn Firstly, a bit big of the cost difference is probably inlining related
14:57 timotimo hm, what were they called again
14:57 jnthn *big bit
14:57 moritz _ramix_: what's a vbs script?
14:57 timotimo visual basic script
14:57 moritz why not just a Perl 6 script?
14:57 moritz you can also call that from the shell
14:57 brrt so it's for windows, it'd need to be added to $PATH
14:57 moritz and there's tooling for that
14:58 _ramix_ visual basic script to acces to filesystem object in win32
14:58 jnthn There where costs that, but the pick is likely too big for that in the first place
14:58 [Coke] "don't mince words, bones, what do you REALLY think?"
14:58 jnthn Not saying `where` is cheap, just that compared in the real scheme of things it may be a few percent.
14:58 brrt ultimately, this is about our module installers. and I don't know if they can do what you ask
14:58 timotimo don't mince bones?
14:58 moritz don't mend bones
14:59 babydrop jnthn: OK, I'll stick a UInt on it then. If you ignore any performance differences, it's a much cleaner solution
14:59 moritz or so :-)
15:00 AlexDaniel joined #perl6
15:01 lucasb I just read the comment on the grants post
15:03 lucasb I'm not sure how harsh it was, but I'm glad we have someone passionate about p6 :)
15:05 sena_kun Why does https://gist.github.com/Altai-man/78ead16e2d8ebcdda80d64c30a14fa1b throws an exception now even if the output was clear(i.e. nothing was written to stderr afaik)?
15:05 moritz sena_kun: what exception?
15:06 sena_kun moritz, not an exception, rather something was tapped from stderr.
15:06 pyrimidine joined #perl6
15:06 babydrop sena_kun: output shows it's just an empty string
15:06 babydrop Maybe that's a quirk of ls?
15:07 sufrostico joined #perl6
15:07 nicq20 moritz: So, I was wrong (as usual). When calling `do: 1+1`, 'do:' is seen as a label and never actually called.
15:07 moritz sena_kun: so what exactly is tapped from stderr?
15:07 sena_kun babydrop, it can be, but I tried other commands previously(firstly, it was call to perl6 binary)...
15:07 sena_kun moritz, an empty string.
15:08 pmurias what does 'say 2**10000000' in rakudo-moar currently do on OS X?
15:08 sufrosti1o joined #perl6
15:09 babydrop sena_kun: oh, yeah, just tried with perl6 -e 'say "hi"'. That's a bug, would you please report it?
15:09 sena_kun babydrop, I'll try, but I might ask some help about it. (:
15:10 khw joined #perl6
15:10 babydrop "Proc::Asyn sends empty trying to stderr tap on program exit, even though the program did not send anything'
15:10 cdg_ joined #perl6
15:11 babydrop sena_kun: oh, and stdout tap too
15:11 babydrop same thing.
15:11 babydrop Maybe it's that slurp-rest: :close thing we added awhile back?
15:11 sena_kun babydrop, yes, I'll create a ticket now, just some time to register is needed...
15:12 cognominal joined #perl6
15:12 babydrop on RT? The New Ticket button is disabled. Just email to rakudobug@perl.org
15:13 sena_kun Ah, okay.
15:13 lucasb funny
15:14 lucasb slurp-rest was added exactly because people didn't like slurp(:close)
15:14 babydrop weird
15:14 lucasb and later, slurp-rest got its own :close parameter
15:15 _ramix_ left #perl6
15:15 sufrostico joined #perl6
15:15 lucasb > await Proc::Async.new('foo').start
15:15 lucasb ===SORRY!===
15:15 lucasb no such file or directory
15:15 sufrosti1o joined #perl6
15:16 babydrop :(
15:16 lucasb would be interesting to output program name or command line that was unsuccessful
15:16 babydrop Also bug
15:16 babydrop lucasb: there actually is logic for that :(
15:16 babydrop I recall bikeshed with the @.command attribute
15:16 lucasb and also... I thought "===SORRY!===" was for compile-time errors? how does it shows at runtime?
15:16 ugexe that was for Proc
15:17 babydrop ugexe: but Proc::Async uses Proc udner the hood
15:17 babydrop And I recall propagating that command stuff for Proc::Assync
15:17 babydrop lucasb: would you bugreport that, please? Just email to rakudobug@perl.org
15:17 dalek mu/titsuki-advent: 6e0deb2 | titsuki++ | misc/perl6advent-2016/schedule:
15:17 dalek mu/titsuki-advent: Add mysef as a 11th writer
15:17 dalek mu/titsuki-advent:
15:17 dalek mu/titsuki-advent: I have already blogged the Japanese version of this post in Qiita for an unofficial Perl 6 advent calender.
15:17 dalek mu/titsuki-advent: Where Qiita is a blog service mainly for Japanese engineers:
15:17 dalek mu/titsuki-advent: http://qiita.com/advent-calendar/2016/perl6
15:17 dalek mu/titsuki-advent: http://qiita.com/titsuki/items/1ad338c6cf14a59be3e8
15:17 dalek mu/titsuki-advent:
15:17 dalek mu/titsuki-advent: So I'll write the English version for this advent calendar.
15:17 dalek mu/titsuki-advent: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/6e0deb29c3
15:18 babydrop wooohoo \o/ titsuki++
15:18 sena_kun titsuki++
15:18 nicq20 pmurias: FYI that `say 2**10000000` is still running.
15:18 timotimo cool
15:18 kurahaupo__ joined #perl6
15:19 sena_kun babydrop, code quoting in the mail is just ">"?
15:20 babydrop sena_kun: just put it as is. Makes it easier to copy-paste
15:20 sena_kun babydrop, thanks.
15:21 cibs joined #perl6
15:22 nicq20 left #perl6
15:25 sena_kun Reported.
15:25 babydrop sena_kun++
15:26 lucasb it's not just stderr. it also sends a empty line to stdout in the end
15:27 sena_kun lucasb, I mentioned that in the title and the description too. (:
15:28 sena_kun Also, is there a chance for me to try to patch it?
15:28 lucasb sena_kun: oh, right. now I noticed. thanks
15:29 AlexDaniel joined #perl6
15:29 lucasb my $p = Proc::Async.new('bash', '-c', 'echo out; echo err 1>&2');
15:30 lucasb $p.stdout.tap(-> $x { say "out: $x" });
15:30 lucasb $p.stderr.tap(-> $x { say "err: $x" });
15:30 lucasb ^^ just sharing another way to show the behaviour
15:30 babydrop sena_kun: sure! The code's in https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/src/core/Proc/Async.pm
15:31 dalek mu: 6e0deb2 | titsuki++ | misc/perl6advent-2016/schedule:
15:31 dalek mu: Add mysef as a 11th writer
15:31 dalek mu:
15:31 dalek mu: I have already blogged the Japanese version of this post in Qiita for an unofficial Perl 6 advent calender.
15:31 dalek mu: Where Qiita is a blog service mainly for Japanese engineers:
15:31 dalek mu: http://qiita.com/advent-calendar/2016/perl6
15:31 dalek mu: http://qiita.com/titsuki/items/1ad338c6cf14a59be3e8
15:31 dalek mu:
15:31 dalek mu: So I'll write the English version for this advent calendar.
15:31 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/6e0deb29c3
15:31 dalek mu: b42b969 | (Will Coleda)++ | misc/perl6advent-2016/schedule:
15:31 dalek mu: Merge pull request #23 from perl6/titsuki-advent
15:31 dalek mu:
15:31 dalek mu: Add mysef as a 11th writer
15:31 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/b42b9698ff
15:31 babydrop sena_kun: you can also try bugging AlexDaniel to run that code on bisectable to figure out what commit introduced that behaviour
15:32 sena_kun babydrop, thanks! I'll try to dig in then.
15:32 sena_kun ping AlexDaniel
15:32 CIAvash joined #perl6
15:33 [Coke] we now have 1-2 gaps left!
15:33 babydrop sena_kun: this may be a candidate: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e4d78c6b1e0035049cf674aee327cc8b78321c8f
15:34 babydrop So you could try building a version prior to that commit (or just change that Supplier::Preserving back to Supplier and see if the issue goes away). And if it does, we'd need to figure out how to address that commit and the current issue
15:34 moritz titsuki++
15:34 moritz [Coke]: how is your post coming along?
15:35 timotimo it could be we're giving the empty string from inside moarvm
15:35 [Coke] moritz: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH
15:35 [Coke] I'm sure I'll finish something in time. :)
15:35 timotimo that sounds ... bad?
15:35 babydrop [Coke] has a secret plan :}
15:35 skids joined #perl6
15:35 [Coke] I have 3 paragraphs written towards a fresh impl. of a perl 6 module re-impl of a brand new p5 module.
15:36 babydrop $ ./perl6 -e '42.pick: -1'
15:36 babydrop Coercion to UInt out of range. Is: -1, should be in 0..Inf
15:36 babydrop in block <unit> at -e line 1
15:36 babydrop Is that good 'nuf?
15:36 babydrop It basically can take an Inf or Whatever too, so the conversion into an Int is deeper in the guts
15:36 babydrop I made it convert to UInt instead.
15:37 babydrop I just imagine AlexDaniel creating a new ticket saying the message is still LTA :P
15:40 jnthn babydrop, sena_kun: I suspect the empty string comes from https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/src/core/Rakudo/Internals/VMBackedDecoder.pm#L36
15:41 babydrop oh cool
15:41 jnthn Also, that XXX comment is no longer true 'cus I fixed that nasty bug :)
15:41 sena_kun good.
15:41 jnthn But the emit will happily spit out an empty string there
15:42 jnthn The one on line 29 actually does check
15:42 jnthn tbh I'd kinda expect code to be robust enough to cope, but I'm happy to tweak this not to emit empty strings :)
15:43 babydrop m: multi foo($) { nextwith 42; say "meow" }; multi foo (Int) { say "ha!" }; foo 'x'
15:43 camelia rakudo-moar 5bacb0: ( no output )
15:43 babydrop How come no output?
15:43 babydrop m: multi foo($) { callwith 42; say "meow" }; multi foo (Int) { say "ha!" }; foo 'x'
15:43 camelia rakudo-moar 5bacb0: OUTPUT«meow␤»
15:43 babydrop m: multi foo($) { nextwith 42; say "meow" }; multi foo (Int) { say "ha!" }; foo 42
15:43 camelia rakudo-moar 5bacb0: OUTPUT«ha!␤»
15:44 babydrop weird
15:44 sena_kun jnthn, just give me some time and wait 'til I will return here with (no?) result. (:
15:44 jnthn babydrop: Because nextwith iterates a pre-determiend candidate list
15:44 jnthn (Determined at the point of dispatch)
15:44 jnthn Use samewith to redispatch
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15:45 babydrop Oh. Thanks. jnthn++
15:46 babydrop m: multi foo($) { samewith 42; say "meow" }; multi foo (Int) { say "ha!" }; foo 'x'
15:46 camelia rakudo-moar 5bacb0: OUTPUT«ha!␤meow␤»
15:46 babydrop hmm
15:46 babydrop m: multi foo (Int) { say "ha!" }; multi foo($) { samewith 42; say "meow" }; foo 'x'
15:46 camelia rakudo-moar 5bacb0: OUTPUT«ha!␤meow␤»
15:46 babydrop m: multi foo (Int) { say "ha!" }; multi foo($) { nextwith 42; say "meow" }; foo 'x'
15:46 camelia rakudo-moar 5bacb0: ( no output )
15:47 babydrop I was hoping to redispatch without returning
15:47 babydrop so the output would be just "ha"
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15:48 babydrop oh well
15:49 babydrop Well, I don't entirely get it, I guess.
15:50 babydrop nextwith just moves further in the candidates list? So it'll only try any candidates that haven't been tried for that call already?
15:50 moritz I think so, yes
15:50 babydrop OK
15:51 jnthn Conceptually, it works like this: when you do a multi dispatch, instead of just calculating the best candidate, we also calculate all possible candidates that would have matched. nextwith takes you do the next one in that list.
15:52 jnthn *to
15:52 babydrop Makes sense. Thanks.
15:55 pmurias jnthn: I made a pull request to fix pow_I on moar
15:56 pmurias jnthn: rakudo also needs to be fixed and I'll start working on that too
15:56 babydrop \o/
15:58 jnthn pmurias: Thanks
15:58 babydrop pmurias: if you've got tuits, pow_In also needs some lovin' and there are three tickets affected by it. I found one fix (https://github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/pull/442) but I don't understand WHY it fixes it, so I closed it in fear it'd be breaking other things.
15:58 babydrop Well, I understand why it fixes it, but I don't understand what that code is for and  what my change may be  breaking.
15:59 jnthn pmurias: Will look shortly
16:06 babydrop Well, you were right. The pick with UInt candidate is not slow and is even about 4% faster. But the error message sucks: https://gist.github.com/zoffixznet/32b9f1a6984b4552287a9e3ea09a9a8f
16:07 babydrop Because it doesn't tell me how to fix it.
16:07 moritz babydrop: does the error message improve if you add an Int candidate with a where clause?
16:07 moritz oh, that might give an ambiguous dispatch
16:08 babydrop Well, UInt *is* an Int with a where clause. It's a subset. And the candidates in the error actually list it as `Int where { ... }` candidate which makes the error that much more confusing
16:08 babydrop And `Inf` candidate is listed as `Num $ where { ... }` :/
16:13 dalek ecosystem: a2ed138 | (Shoichi Kaji)++ | META.list:
16:13 dalek ecosystem: Add WaitGroup to ecosystem
16:13 dalek ecosystem:
16:13 dalek ecosystem: See https://github.com/skaji/perl6-WaitGroup
16:13 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/a2ed1388e8
16:14 jnthn pmurias: The patch seems legit :)
16:15 jnthn Will let the OSX travis tests have at it before merging :)
16:18 dalek mu: 21eea09 | (Will Coleda)++ | misc/perl6advent-2016/schedule:
16:18 dalek mu: move brrt++ up to the 9th.
16:18 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/21eea09c3a
16:18 [Coke] brrt++
16:19 [Coke] so now we have 1-2 gaps, at 5 days out and maybe 3 days out.
16:19 [Coke] Hopefully the 12th is far enough out that someone could consider writing something from scratch in that time.
16:26 jnthn I'll see how soon I get my one ready
16:26 jnthn (No promises! :))
16:26 jnthn (Other than to have it at latest by when I already signed up for)
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16:28 babydrop AlexDani`: you around?
16:28 AlexDani` yes
16:28 AlexDani` came here because somebody wanted to bug me :)
16:28 babydrop lol
16:28 babydrop AlexDani`: what's your opinion on this error: https://gist.github.com/zoffixznet/32b9f1a6984b4552287a9e3ea09a9a8f
16:29 AlexDani` babydrop: hmmm, why is it an error?
16:29 mawkish joined #perl6
16:29 AlexDani` should it be an error?
16:29 babydrop AlexDani`: -1 is not a valid thing to give to .pick
16:30 babydrop Well, what should it do?
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16:32 babydrop AlexDani`: another alternative impl lent me this error: "Coercion to UInt out of range. Is: -1, should be in 0..Inf"
16:33 AlexDani` m: say (42,50,60).roll(0)
16:33 camelia rakudo-moar 5bacb0: OUTPUT«()␤»
16:34 AlexDani` m: say (42,50,60).roll(-1)
16:34 camelia rakudo-moar 5bacb0: OUTPUT«(60 50 50 60 42 42 50 60 50 60 60 42 60 42 60 50 50 42 42 42 42 60 50 50 42 60 42 42 60 60 50 60 60 50 50 50 60 42 60 42 60 50 42 50 60 60 60 42 42 60 42 42 60 50 60 60 42 42 42 42 42 60 50 50 50 42 42 50 50 50 60 50 42 50 60 50 50 50 42 50 50 42 50 42 42 …»
16:34 AlexDani` ah right
16:34 geekosaur mm. "rakudobrew triple" (even after purging the existing one) dies after installing nqp because nqp-m has a relative path for ../install/bin/moar that isn't correct for the path rakudo's Configure.pl is run from
16:34 AlexDani` babydrop: if I recall correctly, some things actually produce empty output when you give them negative values
16:34 AlexDani` m: say 42 xx -10
16:34 camelia rakudo-moar 5bacb0: OUTPUT«()␤»
16:34 AlexDani` like this, I guess?
16:34 * geekosaur suspects this is not rakudobrew's fault; any relative path like that is questionable at best
16:35 AlexDani` babydrop: so I don't really know if it should throw or not
16:35 babydrop Yeah, that's kind of inconsistent :/
16:35 AlexDani` babydrop: if you want it to throw, then “none of these signatures match” is definitely LTA
16:35 AlexDani` but perhaps a good step forward anyway
16:36 babydrop Well, my original gut reaction was to treat it as zero. Then someone in the channel suggested the throwage
16:36 AlexDani` babydrop: ask TimToady?
16:36 babydrop m: [][-1] # I mean, this throws
16:36 camelia rakudo-moar 5bacb0: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Unsupported use of a negative -1 subscript to index from the end; in Perl 6 please use a function such as *-1␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3[][-1]7⏏5 # I mean, this throws␤»
16:36 AlexDani` it throws because people expect it to index from the end
16:37 babydrop m: ''.match: /^/, :nth(-1); # I mean, this throws
16:37 camelia rakudo-moar 5bacb0: OUTPUT«Attempt to retrieve before :1st match -- :nth(-1)␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
16:38 babydrop Kinda like we need to plan this stuff out more. Some sort of grand "Perl 6's Awesome Failure Mode Plan"
16:38 babydrop That deliniates all of such cases and tells what we do.
16:38 babydrop And deliniates the awesomification level all errors need to achieve.
16:39 AlexDani` so what code should I run on bisectable?
16:40 babydrop AlexDani`: oh.
16:40 babydrop AlexDani`: I think we found it actually :)
16:40 babydrop AlexDani`: but it was this ticket: https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=130291#ticket-history
16:40 AlexDani` ah
16:41 AlexDani` wow, that's an interesting ticket
16:46 captain-adequate joined #perl6
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16:47 captain-adequate Congratulations on reaching your funding goal moritz
16:48 captain-adequate Really looking forward to seeing the perl6 book :)
16:49 captain-adequate Or was it Brian that's writting that.
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16:50 AlexDani`
16:50 AlexDani` captain-adequate: yea, it was not moritz…
16:50 captain-adequate Oops... ha ha...
16:50 captain-adequate Brian D Foy
16:51 DrForr Dors anyone mind if I move my posting to yhe 10th?
16:51 mawkish joined #perl6
16:51 moritz captain-adequate: but I wouldn't say no to a few k USD :-)
16:51 babydrop DrForr: as opposed to... which date? Tomorrow?
16:51 babydrop AlexDani`: you may enjoy answering this question: https://www.reddit.com/r/perl6/comments/5gwurz/perl_6_advent_day_7_set_in_your_ways_perl_6s/dawh3oj/
16:51 babydrop (how to type unicode ops)
16:52 AlexDani` “Do you have a browser tab open” hahahahaha
16:52 AlexDani` “are you memorizing the character codes” :|
16:52 babydrop Yeah, I laughed too. But I guess if you've never heard of other methods that'd be your ownly guess
16:52 DrForr Yes, I'm scheduled tomorrow but din't have as nuch time as I hopwd tonight.
16:52 babydrop I do have some codes memorized, actually.
16:52 captain-adequate Ha ha... Well thanks for the news letter moritz.
16:53 babydrop Like − and ♥
16:53 babydrop DrForr: no worries, I schedule my secret post.
16:54 moritz captain-adequate: you're welcome
16:54 DrForr Excelebt, I'll be resdy to toll gor the 10th. I'lk move aroubd when I get honr.
16:55 DrForr (on my phone, if it isn't obvious from tyops.)
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17:01 [Coke] I'll move it now.
17:01 Skarsnik_ joined #perl6
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17:03 babydrop [Coke]: it's "How To Make Use And Abuse Perl 6 Subsets"
17:03 babydrop [Coke]: it's "How To Make, Use, And Abuse Perl 6 Subsets"
17:04 dalek mu: 4722580 | (Will Coleda)++ | misc/perl6advent-2016/schedule:
17:04 dalek mu: move DrForr down.
17:04 dalek mu:
17:04 dalek mu: Also, surprise Zoffix++ post to fill the gap.
17:04 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/472258007f
17:04 [Coke] babydrop++ Zoffix++
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17:08 broquaint m: sub ext-s { ($($^x, $^y), $^z).flat } ext-s(1,2,());
17:08 camelia rakudo-moar 5bacb0: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Strange text after block (missing semicolon or comma?)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3sub ext-s { ($($^x, $^y), $^z).flat }7⏏5 ext-s(1,2,());␤    expecting any of:␤        infix␤        infix stopper␤…»
17:09 broquaint m: sub ext-s { ($($^x, $^y), $^z).flat }; ext-s(1,2,())
17:09 camelia rakudo-moar 5bacb0: ( no output )
17:09 broquaint m: sub ext-s { ($($^x, $^y), $^z).flat }; say ext-s(1,2,())
17:09 camelia rakudo-moar 5bacb0: OUTPUT«((1 2) ())␤»
17:10 broquaint m: my $r = ($(1,2), ()).flat; say $r
17:10 camelia rakudo-moar 5bacb0: OUTPUT«((1 2))␤»
17:10 broquaint Why is the empty list flattened in the latter case but not the former?
17:11 lucasb it is itemized
17:11 lucasb m: say ($( ), $( )).flat
17:11 camelia rakudo-moar 5bacb0: OUTPUT«(() ())␤»
17:11 lucasb m: say ($( ), $( )).flat.perl
17:11 camelia rakudo-moar 5bacb0: OUTPUT«($(), $()).Seq␤»
17:12 babydrop m: sub ext-s { gather deepmap *.take, ($($^x, $^y), $^z) }; say ext-s(1,2,())
17:12 camelia rakudo-moar 5bacb0: OUTPUT«(1 2)␤»
17:12 broquaint Where's the itemization occurring (given the expressions should be identical)?
17:13 lucasb assigning it to $^z itemizes
17:13 broquaint Aha, thanks! :)
17:14 lucasb m: say { $^a }.(()).perl
17:14 camelia rakudo-moar 5bacb0: OUTPUT«$()␤»
17:14 lucasb m: say { @^a }.(()).perl
17:14 camelia rakudo-moar 5bacb0: OUTPUT«()␤»
17:16 prammer joined #perl6
17:17 broquaint Super, I'm now dangerously close to a functioning port of microKanren.scm :)
17:17 babydrop \o/
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18:31 DrForr [Coke]: Thanks, just got in and was going to do the edit :)
18:35 TheDir joined #perl6
18:38 pmurias how do I print out 2 ** (-1020) without it being rounded down to zero?
18:39 pyrimidine re: bdf's TPF grant proposal, I agree that, in light of the Kickstarter being funded, that someone else should get the benefit of that proposal
18:39 mr_ron joined #perl6
18:40 babydrop m: printf "%.2200f", 2 ** (-1020)
18:40 camelia rakudo-moar f367e4: OUTPUT«0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000…»
18:40 babydrop pmurias: I *think* that's the way. But I think we may have some method for that
18:41 pyrimidine saying that, I also think [Coke] is right regarding the timing.  It is worth pointing out the (non-funded) help that he is getting, but I don't think it's helpful to completely slag on his proposal.  The initial comment comes across that way
18:41 pyrimidine IMO
18:42 babydrop pyrimidine: I wouldn't be so pissed of if Brian was competent in Perl 6.
18:43 babydrop m: say (2 ** (-1020)).base-repeating: 10
18:43 camelia rakudo-moar f367e4: OUTPUT«No such method 'base-repeating' for invocant of type 'Num'␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
18:43 babydrop mmkay
18:43 psch babydrop++
18:43 babydrop m: say (2 ** (-1020)).FatRat.base-repeating: 10
18:43 camelia rakudo-moar f367e4: OUTPUT«(0 )␤»
18:44 mr_ron I recently came across an IRC discussion of unicode number subscripts and superscripts and related gist https://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2016-04-14#i_12340102 and https://gist.github.com/AlexDaniel/c89bd2786f9b63f31e4c
18:44 mr_ron m: my $x₁ # error expected ...
18:44 camelia rakudo-moar f367e4: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Bogus postfix␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3my $x7⏏5₁ # error expected ...␤    expecting any of:␤        constraint␤        infix␤        infix stopper␤        postfix␤        statement end␤ …»
18:45 psch u: ₁
18:45 unicodable6 psch, U+2081 SUBSCRIPT ONE [No] (₁)
18:45 unicodable6 psch, U+0020 SPACE [Zs] ( )
18:45 psch mr_ron: afaik, No doesn't fit into <ident>
18:45 babydrop m: say ₁ + ₁ # :D
18:45 camelia rakudo-moar f367e4: OUTPUT«2␤»
18:45 psch mr_ron: we have some hackery in Perl6::Grammar to parse them as literal numbers, but...
18:46 psch u: arabic one
18:46 unicodable6 psch, U+0661 ARABIC-INDIC DIGIT ONE [Nd] (١)
18:46 unicodable6 psch, U+06F1 EXTENDED ARABIC-INDIC DIGIT ONE [Nd] (۱)
18:46 unicodable6 psch, U+08EA ARABIC TONE ONE DOT ABOVE [Mn] (◌࣪)
18:46 mr_ron psch: yes irc discussion link mentions that I think
18:46 psch m: my $x١
18:46 camelia rakudo-moar f367e4: ( no output )
18:46 unicodable6 psch, https://gist.github.com/2c1b824480c9ea0b055e70e37395c97c
18:46 psch m: my $x١ = 5; say $x١
18:46 camelia rakudo-moar f367e4: OUTPUT«5␤»
18:46 psch mr_ron: well, i'm wrong
18:46 psch mr_ron: it's not really about No, it's about some cases arbitrarily working and others not
18:47 DrForr babydrop: FWIW he explained his reasoning in the original Kickstarter, but I'm not happy about the code quality getting slung around either. The lack of consultation is giving me flashbacks to Matt's Script Archive and in all the bad ways.
18:47 psch mr_ron: if you're willing and able to work out a consistent rule and convince @LARRY that it's better than what we have you got at least me behind you
18:47 babydrop mr_ron: and me too. I'd love to have subscripts on terms
18:47 psch mr_ron: as far as i'm concerned, we should really stick to unicode categories with those things, cause we pride ourself on, well, sticking to unicode categories
18:47 mr_ron Wondering about documentation like https://docs.perl6.org/language/syntax#Identifiers not advertising unicode identifiers ...
18:48 AlexDani` joined #perl6
18:48 DrForr mr_ron: Well volunteered?
18:48 psch ++mr_ron
18:48 babydrop maybe the rule can be something like "you can stick a No at the end" (I'm just guessing here, I've not seen the <ident> or what issues a No in it may cause)
18:49 psch babydrop: well, ² is No too, isn't it
18:49 psch and we kinda want that as &infix:<**>.assuming(*, 2)
18:49 babydrop m: '²'.uniprop.say
18:49 camelia rakudo-moar f367e4: OUTPUT«No␤»
18:49 psch so that's hard
18:49 babydrop oh yeah :(
18:49 mr_ron Also math unicode identifiers are mentioned on rosetta code https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Unicode_variable_names#Perl_6 but seem to me to be missing from https://github.com/perl6/roast/blob/master/S02-lexical-conventions/unicode.t ??
18:50 babydrop m: my \term<2²> { 42 }; say 2²
18:50 camelia rakudo-moar f367e4: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Term definition requires an initializer␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3my \term7⏏5<2²> { 42 }; say 2²␤»
18:50 babydrop m: sub term<2²> { 42 }; say 2²
18:50 camelia rakudo-moar f367e4: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Missing block␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3sub term7⏏5<2²> { 42 }; say 2²␤    expecting any of:␤        new name to be defined␤»
18:50 babydrop m: sub term:<2²> { 42 }; say 2²
18:50 camelia rakudo-moar f367e4: OUTPUT«42␤»
18:51 psch yeah, that's an annoying bit of work there
18:51 psch i'm not sure "check if the lexical exists otherwise assume superscript means pow" is a good idea
18:51 firstdayonthejob joined #perl6
18:51 psch ...actually i'm pretty sure it's a bad idea
18:51 babydrop yeah
18:51 psch so we cannot exclusively rely on unicode category there
18:52 mr_ron Any dispute with trying to add math identifier tests to S02-lexical-conventions/unicode.t ?
18:52 cognominal joined #perl6
18:52 DrForr Doesn't Unicode TR27 have some things to say about this?
18:53 psch mr_ron: if it's used on rosettacode i wouldn't object
18:53 psch mr_ron: considering TimToady++ did at least a lot of those
18:53 DrForr (math identifiers, super and subscripts, that is?)
18:55 mr_ron DrForr: Draft Unicode Technical Report #27 - Unicode Consortium ??
18:55 dudz joined #perl6
18:55 DrForr One of those; it talks about math operations and such.
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19:01 babydrop DrForr: TBH, I'm still not following bdf's "reasoning". He says O'Rly is already commited, but then writes "I've shifted O'Reilly risk tolerance by taking on some of it myself". OK, so you launched a Kickstarter for $37K. Considering he plans to finish the book by August, his "risk" is he'd make "only" $4,000 per month, assuming NOT A SINGLE PERSON BUYS THE BOOK EVER. Hell, I'd love some of that sort of risk.
19:01 babydrop But wait! Presumably at the same time he started a Kickstarter, he submitted a TPF grant, for another $10,000 of that juicy "risk". And to my knowledge didn't mention it on his Kickstarter (did he?). So what happened there? If he needed 50 grand of "risk", why not just kickstart for 50 grand?
19:02 psch honestly, i most just don't see how bdf is involved with perl6
19:02 psch that's my primary concern
19:02 babydrop ditto
19:02 psch i mean, i remember him being around occasionally about a year or one and a half years back or so
19:03 psch and, well, considering i'm only closing in on three years of spotty attendance myself i probably don't have that much of a point to stand on anyway
19:03 psch but if you're writing a "learn the essentials but also significant detail" book about a language that (kind of) recently released its 1.0 spec you probably should pay attention to what's likely to change in the future..?
19:04 psch and, well, we're pretty explicit about "be on irc" wrt the pulse of langdev
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19:09 DrForr I repeatedly mention IRC at the very *start* of my talks on the cummuity slides.
19:10 DrForr *community # evil keyboard.
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19:12 DrForr FWIW I'm all for the book, and I want to see it out in people's hands. But the lack of community interaction worries me. As it does most everyone here, so I'm not going to flog that dead horse.
19:14 DrForr On the other hand, being distracted by an IRC window constantly open when you're trying to write is annoying too.
19:15 perlpilot DrForr: were you going to be co-author on the book or something else?
19:17 DrForr I don't think that was ever his intention; part my reading too much into it and part miscommuication.
19:17 * psch .oO( the evil keyboard strikes again )
19:17 perlpilot okay.
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19:19 perlpilot So ... I find I'm much less enamored of the book then.
19:20 DrForr I'm just glad that the kickstarter text and now this proposal came out before I was more involved. I don't need the drama I can easily see ensuing.
19:20 babydrop perlpilot: there's plenty of fish in the sea: https://perl6book.com/
19:20 cognominal joined #perl6
19:21 [Coke] btw, bdf will be speaking at a NYC perl meetup tomorrow.
19:21 perlpilot babydrop: oh sure ... It's just that there's a certain gravitas associated with "Learning Perl" and "Programming Perl" and O'Reilly publications...
19:22 psch honestly, this whole situations seems to strongly involve a rock and a hard place
19:22 perlpilot babydrop: and what I don't want to see happen is a publication that #perl6 thinks sucks.
19:23 pyrimidine babydrop, I guess my point is, bdf took the initiative to write up and get a Kickstarter rollnig (then funded), and also had the initiative to write up a TPF grant.  That's a lot of work
19:23 * [Coke] hurls https://www.meetup.com/The-New-York-Perl-Meetup-Group/events/235779597/
19:23 psch i don't see a way without dangerous -- if not straight-out damaging -- amount of drama happening
19:23 babydrop pyrimidine: and my point bdf is asking for a whole lot of money for work he's not competent to perform well.
19:24 babydrop pyrimidine: and being secretive about it
19:24 pyrimidine I do think it would have helped having an open coversation w/ the community here on how a 'Learning Perl6' would look.
19:24 pyrimidine exactly
19:24 babydrop screw it.
19:24 psch (it would definitely include a nbsp between the 'l' and the '6')
19:24 * babydrop blocks out all of LP6 drama and focuses on code from now on
19:25 pyrimidine babydrop: apologies for the noise.  I do agree with you on 90% of it.  The tone just was off to me
19:28 * pyrimidine now needs to work out why my IRC client drops/reconnects so often
19:30 bjz joined #perl6
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19:44 jdv79 just fyi.  its very irritating that there is no easy way to nav the advent entries.
19:45 jdv79 i scroll to the bottom of the front page and it auto lengthens and i cant find tbe calendar selector thing
19:45 jdv79 on my phone
19:46 [Coke] we are ever in search of a wordpress theme that works excellently everywhere.
19:48 babydrop jdv79: I don't see an option to display the calendar on mobile version as well... Sorry
19:48 jdv79 is it too much to ask for useable nav controls?
19:48 babydrop It *is* there on desktop version
19:48 maybekoo2 joined #perl6
19:48 babydrop jdv79: we don't have a lot of control over this specific installation as we're using the free tier account on wordpress.com
19:49 jdv79 maybe its time to do it on hack in p5 or p6
19:49 psch jdv79: i thought advent 2017 is the one that we host ourselves?
19:49 babydrop jdv79: well volunteered! :D
19:49 jdv79 anyway.  yay.  i gave up:(
19:50 jdv79 oh, really?  17 huh.  cool!
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19:51 babydrop Granted. It's perfectly possible there *is* a way to make it sane and I just don'tknow it :)
19:51 babydrop It's not like I know anything about Wordpress
19:51 babydrop You can also visit http://reddit.com/r/perl6 all the posts are listed there
19:51 psch so, for 2017 we obviously need Pod::To::HTTPS
19:51 babydrop eww pod
19:52 babydrop :)
19:52 psch oh cmon, Pod6 is pretty good
19:52 babydrop Markdown kinda spoiled me, I guess
19:52 psch i mean, it still has an overabundance of =, but still
19:52 babydrop I'm more annoyed by overabundance of < >... or rather of «<>|» stuff
19:53 babydrop vs. [``]() in Markdownb
19:53 babydrop I guess editor snippets is a way to go there
19:53 psch hm, maybe we need different doc preprocessors too :P
19:54 psch ...actually i don't know
19:54 psch i mean, i've written some Pod6, but not a lot
19:54 psch i wasn't terribly bothered by it, not even by the fact that i had to look it up by example in the synopses
19:54 babydrop Markdown::To::Pod :)
19:55 psch heh
19:55 psch use Doc::Markdown; BEGIN %*LANG<DOC> = Doc::Markdown # was more my line of thought :P
19:57 psch ...actually, i'm not sure in how far we have Pod6 in the language braid
19:57 moritz %?LANG<DOC>, if anything
19:57 psch that'd be a nice project for something like GSOC i guess
19:57 psch m: say %?LANG
19:57 camelia rakudo-moar 2d0198: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Variable '%?LANG' is not declared␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3say 7⏏5%?LANG␤»
19:57 psch m: say %*LANG
19:57 camelia rakudo-moar 2d0198: OUTPUT«Dynamic variable %*LANG not found␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
19:58 moritz setting dynamic variables at compile time doesn't seem to make too uch sense to me
19:58 moritz since they are inherently tied to the run time
19:58 psch moritz: right.  i'll concede to any critique on the semantics there
19:58 babydrop m: BEGIN say %*LANG
19:58 TimToady %*LANG should be considered deprecated
19:58 camelia rakudo-moar 2d0198: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤An exception occurred while evaluating a BEGIN␤at <tmp>:1␤Exception details:␤  No such method 'WHICH' for invocant of type 'Perl6::Grammar'␤    in code  at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
19:59 babydrop m: BEGIN say %*LANG.^name
19:59 camelia rakudo-moar 2d0198: OUTPUT«BOOTHash␤»
19:59 TimToady the current language braid should be a property of the current cursor, not a dynvar
20:00 psch TimToady: so where *do* we get to it?
20:00 TimToady via some method on the current cursor
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20:03 TimToady once we get there, it will be possible to save a "current language" for reference in a separate semantic pass on the AST
20:03 TimToady as it is currently, the dynvar goes out of scope before the next pass
20:04 TimToady pragmas likewise should come through the cursor, not through a dynvar
20:05 TimToady the cursor is the goto place for all things that define the current language, so using dynvars in parallel is a smell
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20:05 psch ah, okay
20:07 psch so any assignment to anything belonging to the current cursor (i don't think $¢ currently works in the mainline..?) translates to a BEGIN..?
20:08 psch or am i mixing semantics there?  afaiu, BEGIN is the time where we can add new bareword, which additions to the language braid might want to do?
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20:38 dalek ecosystem: 7396929 | RabidGravy++ | META.list:
20:38 dalek ecosystem: Add Manifesto
20:38 dalek ecosystem:
20:38 dalek ecosystem: https://github.com/jonathanstowe/Manifesto
20:38 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/73969296c7
20:39 RabidGravy boom
20:44 moritz bang!
20:53 moritz m: my %h is default([]); %h<a>.push: 1; %h<b>.push: 2; say %h
20:53 camelia rakudo-moar 2d0198: OUTPUT«{}␤»
20:54 moritz m: my %h; %h<a>.push: 1; %h<b>.push: 2; say %h
20:54 camelia rakudo-moar 2d0198: OUTPUT«{a => [1], b => [2]}␤»
20:54 moritz does this look like a bug to anybody else?
20:54 babydrop yeah
20:54 moritz I was curious whether it created two distinct arrays, but didn't expect to see %h empty
20:55 * moritz rakudos submitbug
20:56 masak aye, bug
20:56 El_Che joined #perl6
20:58 masak not sure which of your two hypothesized behaviors I would expect, even though the "two distinct arrays" feels both nicer and more magical
21:00 moritz I leave that open for the purpose of this bug report
21:02 moritz the question is really: does the 'is default' trait clone the default value before assigning it
21:02 moritz the right solution would be to capture the default as a thunk
21:03 moritz and evaluate the thunk each time it's needed
21:03 moritz just like we handle defaults in signatures
21:03 moritz but I'm afraid our current trait system doesn't make that accessible
21:05 Skarsnik_ joined #perl6
21:05 jnthn m: https://gist.github.com/jnthn/ad63b599d6017a7ee82f415e1fd4d86f
21:05 camelia rakudo-moar 2d0198: OUTPUT«(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)␤»
21:06 pyrimidine joined #perl6
21:06 jnthn RabidGravy: Guess you've got more sophisticated uses for Manifesto, but ^^ :)
21:06 moritz jnthn: sleep sort ftw
21:08 RabidGravy :)
21:08 RabidGravy yeah
21:09 RabidGravy I couldn't think of an example that didn't have a dependency
21:09 jnthn But it strikes me the module code might golf down some to a supply block
21:11 cognominal joined #perl6
21:21 donaldh joined #perl6
21:24 RabidGravy that thought did occur to me but I couldn't work out how to lose the old promises
21:26 espadrine joined #perl6
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21:51 gsoedl joined #perl6
21:52 [Coke] ... we have a CLOSE phaser?
21:53 [Coke] (and it's doc'd? :)
21:55 lizmat only works in a supply block afaik
22:08 bjz joined #perl6
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22:20 TheDir joined #perl6
22:20 dogbert17 is lizmat still awake?
22:22 dogbert17 m: https://gist.github.com/dogbert17/41042137f44394a0094c1cc1c05055bb
22:22 camelia rakudo-moar 0428b7: OUTPUT«(signal SEGV)»
22:22 dogbert17 why does that golfattempt SEGV?
22:22 AlexDaniel bisect: https://gist.github.com/dogbert17/41042137f44394a0094c1cc1c05055bb
22:23 dogbert17 .oO
22:23 bisectable6 AlexDaniel, It looks like a URL, but mime type is ‘text/html; charset=utf-8’ while I was expecting something with ‘text/plain’ or ‘perl’ in it. I can only understand raw links, sorry.
22:23 AlexDaniel ah right
22:23 AlexDaniel bisect: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/dogbert17/41042137f44394a0094c1cc1c05055bb/raw/fa0236369e6d8ca5c3eccf8a0a6fddac1f85f616/gistfile1.txt
22:23 bisectable6 AlexDaniel, Successfully fetched the code from the provided URL.
22:23 bisectable6 AlexDaniel, Bisecting by exit signal (old=2015.12 new=0428b79). Old exit signal: 0 (None)
22:23 AlexDaniel there we go
22:23 bisectable6 AlexDaniel, bisect log: https://gist.github.com/d020b178ffb9858385d25c1d02cb2046
22:23 dogbert17 cool
22:23 bisectable6 AlexDaniel, (2016-11-24) https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/172898eb1ee5ea3e47b29cf12b668be71362146d
22:23 AlexDaniel dogbert17: will you submit a bug report?
22:23 dogbert17 I guess so :-)
22:24 AlexDaniel dogbert17: perhaps you want to golf it a little bit… :)
22:24 dogbert17 I have tried
22:24 AlexDaniel lizmat: ping, ↑ (although you will probably see it anyway)
22:24 dogbert17 was hoping she was still awake
22:25 AlexDaniel dogbert17: well, we need a ticket anyway
22:25 dogbert17 indeed, I'll fix
22:26 AlexDaniel … bisectable is so useful sometimes :O
22:26 dogbert17 indeed, AlexDaniel++
22:28 AlexDaniel MasterDuke++ also for a bunch of other whateverable features
22:29 MasterDuke joined #perl6
22:34 guest__ joined #perl6
22:34 dogbert17 done, RT #130294
22:34 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=130294
22:37 setty1 joined #perl6
22:41 prammer joined #perl6
22:41 AlexDaniel dogbert17: thanks
22:44 El_Che_ joined #perl6
22:45 pyrimidine joined #perl6
22:54 babydrop How can I get a list of all core types? My goal is to get all the core methods and subs and introspect their signatures, to call them with different parameters to log how they fail.
22:55 babydrop m: say keys ::CORE
22:55 camelia rakudo-moar 0428b7: OUTPUT«()␤»
22:55 babydrop I recall there was an invocation like that. Something or other
22:58 jnthn m: say SETTING::.pairs.grep(!*.value.defined)
22:58 camelia rakudo-moar 0428b7: OUTPUT«RESTRICTED-CLASS is disallowed in restricted setting␤  in sub restricted at src/RESTRICTED.setting line 1␤  in method gist at src/RESTRICTED.setting line 33␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
22:59 jnthn evalable6: say SETTING::.pairs.grep(!*.value.defined)
22:59 evalable6 jnthn, rakudo-moar 0428b79: OUTPUT«(exit code 1) RESTRICTED-CLASS is disallowed in restricted setting␤  in sub restricted at src/RESTRICTED.setting line 1␤  in method gist at src/RESTRICTED.setting line 33␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/ywtw9hRrfp line 1␤»
22:59 jnthn oh come on, stop it with this security stuff :P
22:59 mr_ron joined #perl6
22:59 babydrop I get No such method 'WHICH' for invocant of type 'Perl6::Metamodel::ContainerDescriptor'
22:59 babydrop but a bunch of stuff if I reverse the conditional.
22:59 babydrop Thanks, I think I can figure out the rest :)
23:02 AlexDaniel yea. Not yet, not yet
23:08 mr_ron AlexDaniel: I just read your comment on my issue about unicode identifiers.  I admit to being a relic of the ASCII and even EBCDIC era but think the Unicode vs Texas page is too much digging for someone who just wants to know about using Unicode for identifiers and numbers.
23:08 mr_ron https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1039
23:08 pyrimidine joined #perl6
23:09 mr_ron I guess I am thinking in terms of advertising a feature rather than providing spec.
23:09 AlexDaniel hmmm
23:10 AlexDaniel mr_ron: perhaps you can suggest something specific?
23:10 AlexDaniel or maybe even submit a pull request
23:11 mr_ron I want to know about the use of subscripts and the delta symbol for an identifier.  It would seem to be a syntax issue and not about a texas/ascii alternative to Unicode.
23:12 babydrop mr_ron: delta is not a symbol, it's a greek letter, and letters are allowed in identifiers.
23:12 AlexDaniel “Any codepoint that has the Ll (Letter, lowercase), Lu (Letter, uppercase), Lt (Letter, titlecase), Lm (Letter, modifier), or the Lo (Letter, other) property can be used just like any other alphabetic character from the ASCII range.”
23:12 AlexDaniel which means that Ll, Lu, Lt, Lm, Lo are allowed in identifiers
23:12 AlexDaniel everything else… not really
23:13 mr_ron Yes - that is in Unicode vs Texas - but I am not looking for an alternative ASCII coding
23:13 AlexDaniel u: ₆
23:13 unicodable6 AlexDaniel, U+2086 SUBSCRIPT SIX [No] (₆)
23:13 babydrop mr_ron: basically uncode stuff has "properties" so valid stuff in identifiers goes by those properties. For example, is an uppercase letter, so it has Lu property and Lu properties are allowed
23:13 babydrop *delta is an uppercase letter
23:13 AlexDaniel so ₀₋₉ are not going to work in identifiers
23:13 AlexDaniel which is sad, I know!
23:14 babydrop m: '−'.uniprop.say
23:14 camelia rakudo-moar 0428b7: OUTPUT«Sm␤»
23:14 AlexDaniel .oO( but it is even sadder that they don't work as array subscripts )
23:14 babydrop heh
23:14 mr_ron I stand corrected on delta but still wonder about having the info on the right page.  Since it's a feature I wonder if it might not even be worth an example?
23:15 AlexDaniel mr_ron: yea, it's worth an example and worth a link to unicode_texas page :)
23:15 babydrop mr_ron: yes, that would be helpful. If you can think of a good way to document that, please submit a PR
23:16 mr_ron Thanks ... will try hopefully by sometime tomorrow.
23:16 babydrop \o/
23:19 AlexDaniel 🙌
23:20 skids joined #perl6
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23:23 tbrowder hi #perl6
23:23 AlexDaniel 🙋
23:25 AlexDaniel dogbert17: hey
23:25 AlexDaniel actually, it seems to be something different
23:25 AlexDaniel lizmat++ only revealed the problem ( https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/172898eb1ee5ea3e47b29cf12b668be71362 )
23:26 AlexDaniel it does not segfault with MVM_SPESH_DISABLE=1
23:28 babydrop tbrowder: oh, BTW, I only today saw your email about the Advent thing, 'cause I rarely check email.
23:28 babydrop huggable: advent
23:28 huggable babydrop, https://github.com/perl6/mu/blob/master/misc/perl6advent-2016/schedule
23:29 babydrop tbrowder: there's one spot you can post in, if you want. And then [Coke] won't need to write his. https://github.com/perl6/mu/blob/master/misc/perl6advent-2016/schedule#L13
23:30 tbrowder babydrop: ok but understand it won't be "new" (but i have an idea to extend it just a bit)
23:36 babydrop tbrowder: yes, extend it and it'll be fine, since you mention it got little exposure when you first wrote it :) Add yourself to https://github.com/perl6/mu/blob/master/misc/perl6advent-2016/schedule
23:36 babydrop .tell [Coke] seems like we found a volunteer to fill up the last spot (tbrowder) so you're off the hook for your article
23:36 yoleaux babydrop: I'll pass your message to [Coke].
23:37 babydrop tbrowder: do you have access to post on https://perl6advent.wordpress.com ? If not, let me know your wordpress username (create one if needed) and I'll invite you.
23:38 dogbert17 AlexDaniel: an optimizer bug then?
23:38 tbrowder let me see...
23:38 revdiablo joined #perl6
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23:39 pmurias should we also setup travis to run nqp tests on Mac OS X?
23:39 babydrop wouldn't hurt
23:39 babydrop pmurias: you have a robomessage in -dev
23:40 Actualeyes joined #perl6
23:41 pmurias babydrop: I deleted that branch
23:41 babydrop \o/
23:42 pmurias babydrop: if we verify that the ** works on mac os x, we should be able also to close: https://rt.perl.org/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=125938
23:44 babydrop .ask lizmat would you be able to test whether 2**10000000000 throws on OSX on HEAD rakudo? pmurias++ fixed RT#125938 we just need someone with OSX to verify the fix works.
23:44 yoleaux babydrop: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
23:44 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=125938
23:45 tbrowder babydrop: my wordpress user name is "tombrowder" and it doesn't look like i have access to perl6advent.wordpress.com (but can follow it)
23:46 babydrop tbrowder: "Invitation sent successfully"
23:46 telex joined #perl6
23:48 babydrop tbrowder: a word of warning: be sure to double check your < and > characters get rendered correctly. When you switch Visual and HTML modes in wordpress, it deletes them. I personally wrote my stuff in markdown, then placed it into a github gist, naming the file with .md extension, and then gave the URL to this script that spat out HTML code I just pasted into wordpress:
23:48 babydrop https://gist.github.com/zoffixznet/153bef6a3c9d8a827f4c9c46e308a53b
23:50 babydrop I s'pose any &somename; would be affected as well
23:51 tbrowder zoffix, er babydrop: thanks!
23:52 babydrop :)
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