Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2017-04-05

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:37 Geth ¦ doc: d5abcebc15 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 3 files
00:37 Geth ¦ doc: [io grant] Write docs for all spurt routines
00:37 Geth ¦ doc:
00:37 Geth ¦ doc: - Reflect changes in &spurt
00:37 Geth ¦ doc: - Document all the args in IO::Path.spurt
00:37 Geth ¦ doc: - Document newly-added IO::Handle.spurt
00:37 Geth ¦ doc:
00:37 Geth ¦ doc: Impl: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/099512b20c
00:37 Geth ¦ doc: Tests: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/79ff022881
00:37 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/d5abcebc15
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01:47 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
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03:02 u-ou Not sure if this is a bug or not, but when I try this script I get broken and glued together lines in my IO::Socket::Async's Supply. Docs say "Control characters (such as \n) always serve as grapheme boundaries, so any text-based protocols that use newlines or null bytes as terminators will not need special consideration." script here: https://pastebin.com/NHbLfqhQ
03:07 geekosaur u-ou, were you expecting lines to transit the network as lines?
03:08 u-ou I'm not sure what it's supposed to do but that line from docs sounds as though it's meant to
03:08 geekosaur the network does not know of anything but octets. if you are not using UDP, routers and kernels will arbitrarily segment and reassemble packets; there is no guarantee the receiver will see anything but the same *stream*
03:08 geekosaur how that stream is reported to you will vary
03:08 u-ou ok
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03:08 u-ou so I have to take care of it myself
03:08 geekosaur grapheme boundaries are not related to anything but how it looks for combining characters in a grapheme
03:09 geekosaur yes
03:09 u-ou ok
03:09 geekosaur this is true of any network protocol. yours mayhappen to be line based, but this is not a universal
03:09 u-ou ohhhh
03:11 geekosaur presumably someone could do a layer that reassembled lines and passed them on as such (just make sure that's always what you need; some protocols have text-like commands but the data following them might be length delimited binary)
03:12 u-ou yeah, I'm just wondering what is the right way to do it
03:13 geekosaur I want to say another Supply which your receiver feeds reassembled lines
03:14 u-ou *nod*
03:14 geekosaur s/feeds/emits/
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03:21 llfourn anyone have an idea what it means when rakudo gives me a bogus line number in the backtrace.
03:21 llfourn Too few positionals passed; expected 2 arguments but got 1
03:22 llfourn in method stage2 at /Users/llfourn/src/Spit/lib/Spit/SAST.pm6 (Spit::SAST) line 1
03:22 llfourn (obviously that method isn't on line 1)
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03:40 u-ou hmm. I want to split a string but keep the separator as part of the returned string (at the end)
03:41 u-ou no wait. I don't need to. nvm.
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06:42 memori How different is perl 5 from perl 6? What major changes in syntax (if any) might cause problems in scripts?
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07:01 moritz Perl 6 is newly designed from scratch, but inspired by Perl 5
07:02 moritz so it's quite different. You can't throw Perl 5 scrits at a Perl 6 compiler and expect them to run
07:02 samcv it is not back compatible
07:02 samcv but it is so much fun :)
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07:03 TEttinger there's inline stuff also
07:03 moritz right, you can load the perl 5 interpreter in Rakudo, thus using Perl 5 code in Perl 6 (or vice versa)
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07:06 TEttinger it's neat and seems to be widely useful
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07:16 tane howdy
07:16 tane is there anyway to return a pair of array from a sub routine? i.e. my (@a, @b) = some-sub; ?
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07:22 masak m: my (@a, @b) := foo; say @a; say @b; sub foo { return [1, 2], [3, 4] }
07:22 camelia rakudo-moar 099512: OUTPUT: «[1 2]␤[3 4]␤»
07:22 masak morning, #perl6
07:23 masak m: my (@a, @b) := sub { return [1, 2], [3, 4] }(); say @a; say @b
07:23 camelia rakudo-moar 099512: OUTPUT: «[1 2]␤[3 4]␤»
07:23 masak that latter one is grammatically correct -- and I don't have to name the sub -- but it kind of goes against my "visual pill" instincts
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07:28 tane masak, thanks
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11:14 timotimo u-ou: there is a method on supplies that will split things into lines for you
11:14 timotimo u-ou: https://docs.perl6.org/type/Supply#method_lines
11:14 timotimo geekosaur: you may also be interested in this
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11:37 nadim Moning #perl6,  can someone tell me if "also" is something more than   allowing inheritence (class, role) to be defined in the body of a class rather than the class header?
11:37 timotimo nothing else to my knowledge
11:38 moritz same here; except maybe it allows some weird stuff that would otherwise be hard
11:38 timotimo stuff that derives from itself? :P
11:38 moritz m: class A { class B { }; also is B }
11:38 camelia rakudo-moar 099512: ( no output )
11:38 moritz m: class A { class B { }; also is B }; say A ~~ A::B
11:38 camelia rakudo-moar 099512: OUTPUT: «True␤»
11:38 Voldenet why ಠ_ಠ
11:38 timotimo neat, you can make that private and it'll be super strange and useless but cool!
11:38 Voldenet oh welp, it'd work for some trees
11:39 nadim "super strange and useless but cool", weirdly, I like that
11:39 Voldenet "I'll use this as my 'good practice'" :)
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11:42 leont My rakudobrew doesn't want to rebuild rakudo :-/
11:42 leont «Command failed (status 256): /home/leont/perl5/perlbrew/perls/perl-5.24.0/bin/perl Configure.pl --optimize --prefix=/home/leont/.rakudobrew/moar-nom/install --make-install»
11:43 moritz any output above that?
11:43 leont http://paste.scsys.co.uk/557779
11:44 timotimo leont: heads up, i'm hoping i can add some better error messages to YAMLish; got any hints for me? like what kinds of code changes you'd like or not like to see?
11:44 timotimo leont: that error is mea culpa. i rm'd the libtommath folder and reincarnated it as a git submodule and you have to rm -rf it manually to make stuff work again :)
11:45 moritz right, if you rm -rf /home/leont/.rakudobrew/moar-nom/nqp/MoarVM you should be fine
11:45 leont YAMLish needs a major refactor first. It really needs an AST
11:45 timotimo leont: i don't have that much time :D
11:45 leont I had this hunch a rm -rf would be involved in fixing this :-p
11:45 timotimo also: holy crap, a whole lot of stuff you'd intuitively think would be invalid ... is actually valid and not quite what you'd expect
11:45 moritz yes, YAML is "fun" like that
11:46 leont Yeah, I've learned a lot of things about YAML that I didn't want to know.
11:46 timotimo i can definitely put in an error when a map has a mis-indented key
11:46 timotimo but not when a sequence does
11:46 timotimo however, when a sequence has a mis-indented key, YAMLish rejects that outright as a parse fail, which it shouldn't
11:46 timotimo so that's also something i'd like to "fix"
11:47 leont My favorite exampe is putting a block scoped thingie inside an flowing thingie
11:47 timotimo no, i don't want to see that. ever.
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11:49 timotimo are you looking to implement something like YAMLReference? like, a streaming parser for tokens/"events" and an interpreter for that to create the objects or proper errors from it?
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11:51 leont I don't thing it has to be streaming
11:51 leont YAML documents are rarely large enough to benefit from that
11:51 timotimo fair enough
11:51 timotimo the difference is just whether the list is consumed right away, or stored until the document has ended
11:52 timotimo though also, it'll potentially change what errors you'll get
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11:53 timotimo you won't get errors from the consumer rejecting the token stream, unless the producer reached the end without complaining
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11:53 timotimo but i'm not sure if there are cases like that
11:54 leont I don't think of it as a token stream, mainly because Grammars are recursive-decent
11:54 timotimo that's fair, i guess
11:55 leont Even if all other YAML parsers do work that way
11:55 timotimo i didn't dive down far enough to get a clear understanding of the whole, rather than just individual pieces
12:00 leont I have a moar--j=2/ folder, that looks like a mistake to me
12:02 timotimo :D
12:03 timotimo yeah, you don't give j two dashes
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12:16 leont TAP.pm kind of requires a Dual-life workflow
12:16 * timotimo taps some of his cards to harness the power of their magic
12:16 leont Editing it on both ends is problematic and not keeping them in sync is problematic.
12:16 leont *is even more
12:17 timotimo you mean how tap::harness fails with many test suites of perl6 modules?
12:17 timotimo or have i missed something additional?
12:17 leont I've just synced them
12:17 timotimo i think i've missed something; sync tap::harness and what?
12:18 leont It's in rakudo, and it's in separate repository, but it's the same code
12:18 timotimo oh, i didn't realize
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12:21 leont Possibly the easy solution is to not have it in the ecosystem, given that it has been in rakudo for a year now. Not sure how far zefs backward compatibility goes.
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12:25 leont Hmmm, doesn't Test.pm6 have a skip-all option?
12:27 timotimo skip-rest
12:27 timotimo + exit 0
12:27 timotimo or something
12:29 leont That is not the same
12:29 leont perl -MTest::More -e 'plan skip_all => "Reason"'
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12:30 timotimo oh, ok
12:30 andrzejku hi people
12:31 leont Solved it with a print and exit, but it is kind of awkward
12:31 timotimo a bit, yeah
12:31 lizmat leont: PR's to Test.pm6 are welcome  :-)
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13:02 andrzejku hi people would you like to update this greate intro
13:02 andrzejku document for Native Call
13:02 andrzejku in C++
13:03 lizmat andrzejku: I think hankache takes PR's  :-)
13:04 andrzejku lizmat: yes yes
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13:09 leont Yeah, adding it to Test should be trivial, just surprised no one felt they needed it
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13:16 timotimo andrzejku: hankache wants the intro to only be an intro, not everything
13:16 timotimo andrzejku: that's also why there is no mention of "is rw", or repr('CStruct')
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13:31 lizmat is C++ support explained on docs.perl6.org ?
13:32 lizmat https://docs.perl6.org/language/nativecall#C++_Support   # guess it is
13:32 lizmat andrzejku: perhaps you could improve that ?
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13:33 lizmat and perhaps the intro could also link to that section ?
13:34 timotimo it already links to language/nativecall, doesn't it? that starts with a nice TOC that has "C++ support" in it. in bold, even! :)
13:35 leont I doubt it's possible to support any of the more interesting parts of C++ (as that requires the C++ compile time)
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13:35 timotimo right, can't make templates work unless they are already instantiated in the way you want them to
13:44 moritz which is a real PITA even when using C++ libraries in C++
13:45 moritz it means you always have to keep the full source code o fthe libraries around
13:47 lizmat which, atm, is not unlike Perl 5 or Perl 6 for that matter  :-)
13:47 lizmat for Perl 6 we will be able to do better in the future  :-)
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13:54 timotimo not the full source code, just the header files!
13:54 timotimo except of course that people write their whole projects in header files instead of source files!
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14:11 moritz well, if you write only headers into the header files, and give somebody an object file and the headers, they can't instantiate templates with unknown combinations of parameters
14:11 * moritz guesses he missed the irony in timotimo++'s statement :-)
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14:18 pmurias hi
14:19 lizmat pmurias o/
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16:01 Geth ¦ doc: ee9455a05d | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Language/testing.pod6
16:01 Geth ¦ doc: Document `skip-all` option for Test::plan()
16:01 Geth ¦ doc:
16:01 Geth ¦ doc: Rakudo impl: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/14b6d5f360
16:01 Geth ¦ doc: Tests: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/680970a2e5
16:01 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/ee9455a05d
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17:27 Geth ¦ doc: 9a993275ec | (Brad Gilbert)++ | doc/Type/IO.pod6
17:27 Geth ¦ doc: Typo slurp -> spurt
17:27 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/9a993275ec
17:27 Geth ¦ doc: 5c9a788f6e | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Language/testing.pod6
17:27 Geth ¦ doc: Improve docs for plan :skip-all, bail-out, and skip-rest
17:27 Geth ¦ doc:
17:27 Geth ¦ doc: Mentions the other two in each of the sections and clarify
17:27 Geth ¦ doc: a bit when to use which.
17:27 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/5c9a788f6e
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17:47 Geth ¦ doc: bd491f13b8 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | t/pod-htmlify.t
17:47 Geth ¦ doc: Reword test to work in earlier rakudos
17:47 Geth ¦ doc:
17:47 Geth ¦ doc: IO::Handle.spurt is not yet available in any of the released rakudos.
17:47 Geth ¦ doc: Fixes #1264
17:47 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/bd491f13b8
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17:51 Geth ¦ doc: 951f5f6c5a | (Zoffix Znet)++ | t/pod-htmlify.t
17:51 Geth ¦ doc: Fix broken test
17:51 Geth ¦ doc:
17:51 Geth ¦ doc: tempfile returns a Str not IO::Path for $filename
17:51 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/951f5f6c5a
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18:21 leont \o/ (skip-all)
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18:52 andrzejku hi
18:52 andrzejku :)
18:54 raschipi oi
18:56 masak y0
18:56 geekosaur œ
19:00 masak ℌℑ
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19:13 El_Che too "whaat" for utf8. I am still in shock Ubuntu is dropping unity
19:13 El_Che :)
19:17 raschipi Unity, Mir, Snappy...
19:18 raschipi GNOME won the desktop wars. Soon SuSE will have to switch too, to avoid being the weird one.
19:20 masak Ubuntu is droppoing Unity? hadn't heard, but that sounds like good news from where I'm sitting.
19:20 masak dropping*
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19:21 El_Che masak: I suffered through the first buggy releases and I end up liking it :)
19:21 El_Che just installed gnome on this laptop
19:21 El_Che :)
19:23 El_Che https://t.co/3Lu0WHO8k5
19:23 El_Che The announcement
19:25 raschipi All because of language bindings.
19:25 El_Che gtk3?
19:27 raschipi Qt bindings are few an far between and they suck everywhere but on C++ or Python.
19:27 El_Che ah, unity 8
19:28 El_Che not 7
19:28 * geekosaur stays with mate
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19:30 * El_Che needs to relearn quite a few of keyb shortcuts it seems
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19:35 AlexDaniel wow, that was unexpected
19:36 AlexDaniel wait, how are they going to integrate their ads in GNOME exactly?
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19:36 El_Che the amazon thing has been gone for a long time
19:37 leont Gnome Shell's awesome side is its extensibility, if they would want to they easily could
19:38 El_Che I switched this "irc + firefox" machine first (and 2gb 9y old ultrabook)
19:38 El_Che and gnome3 does not feel slow
19:39 El_Che that's a win
19:42 raschipi Amazon integration comes disbled by default for a long time. And it wouldn't be hard to write an amazon search provider for GNOME.
19:46 AlexDaniel thinking about it, Canonical has done a lot to make sure I would never recommend Ubuntu to anyone
19:46 AlexDaniel … only to revert it all back
19:47 leont I loved Ubuntu when it was an up-to-date Debian, but got annoyed by the QA and now I'm on Arch
19:48 samcv i use arch too
19:48 AlexDaniel debian unstable works fine too :P
19:49 raschipi It sure does.
19:49 samcv i have debian unstable on my server
19:50 samcv arch on desktop/laptops
19:50 AlexDaniel :O
19:50 AlexDaniel well, wouldn't really do that on a server… :)
19:50 samcv well. unstable is not unstable, it's just. the version numbers change
19:50 samcv stable refers to the versions not changing
19:50 samcv which i am totally fine with
19:51 samcv though it also refers to the other kind of stability too, but. i want the latest versions
19:52 raschipi I don't put unstable on servers because I like to activate automatic security upgrades.
19:52 raschipi And unstable doesn't have those.
19:55 AlexDaniel well, you can upgrade it automatically anyway
19:55 AlexDaniel and then check your server every day to see if it is actually running…
19:55 raschipi My clients would kill me...
19:55 samcv i guess that's fair enough raschipi
19:58 raschipi It's good to avoid new features unless you can sell them.
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20:03 * [Coke] yawns.
20:07 MasterDuke arch on desktop, kubuntu on laptop
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20:14 El_Che is there a demand for arch packages (like the one I provide for centos/debian/ubuntu/fedora?
20:15 El_Che I mean rakudo pkgs
20:16 raschipi I think they already have the newest version in AUR
20:16 El_Che ah nice
20:17 El_Che (then no use case there)
20:17 MasterDuke yeah, they're usually updated only a couple days after a release
20:17 El_Che impressive
20:17 El_Che I'll try to add alpine soon
20:19 raschipi Debian also updates within a few days when they're not frozen.
20:20 El_Che I ran testing and unstable in the early 2000 :)
20:21 El_Che was glad when ubuntu came out: frozen recent packages
20:21 El_Che on the other hand, I learnt a lot about Linux in those days when X (Xf86) was often broken on unstable :)
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20:50 Voldenet El_Che: do you maintain any repo with debian/* files, I'm playing around with moar's code so I'd be glad not to just rm -rf /opt/rakudo
20:50 Voldenet but to use apt instead
20:53 El_Che Voldenet: no a repo, just dpkg -i
20:53 El_Che it upgrades the pkg
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20:54 El_Che Voldenet: https://github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg/releases
20:54 El_Che Voldenet: you could run the container that create the package and chaneg stuff there
20:55 Voldenet oh, docker
20:55 Voldenet I didn't notice there was a source there, thanks.
21:06 * AlexDaniel covers his ears
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21:24 Geth ¦ doc: bdb7ab42af | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Programs/00-running.pod6
21:24 Geth ¦ doc: Explain the option more clearly
21:24 Geth ¦ doc:
21:24 Geth ¦ doc: Never know which one it is when looking for env vars and end up
21:24 Geth ¦ doc: clicking the wrong thing :/
21:24 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/bdb7ab42af
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22:13 SmokeMachine m: sub bla⸨:$key, :$value⸩ {say "$key => $value"}; bla "a" => 42
22:13 camelia rakudo-moar ad01ed: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Missing block␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3sub bla7⏏5⸨:$key, :$value⸩ {say "$key => $value"};␤    expecting any of:␤        new name to be defined␤»
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