Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2017-04-07

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:00 leont I can't think of many circumstances where anyone would want the sleep behavior
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00:21 BenGoldberg I think someone suggested that sleep() should be changed to become sugar for the await thing, but I don't recall the result of that discussion.
00:27 timotimo "await Promise.in($seconds)" will still put your system-level thread to actual sleep unless you have use v6.d.PREVIEW active
00:29 BenGoldberg That's silly ;)
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00:32 timotimo await always blocks a thread when you don't have v6.d.PREVIEW
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00:36 BenGoldberg Prior to v6.d.PREVIEW, how would one reschedule the current task in the future without actually sleeping the thread?
00:36 BenGoldberg Is it just not doable?
00:38 timotimo just not doable™
00:38 timotimo perhaps you can steal all the new code that enables it
00:38 timotimo and put it into your own code?
00:38 timotimo dunno. gotta go to bed now, tho! :)
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01:48 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
01:57 samcv .ask lizmat can you bench this branch for me on macosx? https://github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/pull/574 on linux i get 2.2x faster when running `'a' x 10000 ~ 'b' ~~ /b/`
01:57 yoleaux samcv: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
01:58 samcv or somebody with a mac that wants to test and compare it to master MoarVM
02:08 samcv also hello everyone :-)
02:13 Geth ¦ ecosystem: ac9c1ae383 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | META.list
02:13 Geth ¦ ecosystem: add App::Uni
02:13 Geth ¦ ecosystem:
02:13 Geth ¦ ecosystem: https://github.com/coke/p6-uni
02:13 Geth ¦ ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/ac9c1ae383
02:15 [Coke] https://github.com/coke/p6-uni/blob/master/README.md - hardly needed with p6, but I find it useful. RJBS++
02:20 AlexDaniel [Coke]: oh, commnad-line unicodable? :)
02:20 AlexDaniel [Coke]: how fast does it grep through the whole thing?
02:21 [Coke] there's no caching.
02:21 [Coke] I'll add race/hyper when it works. :|
02:22 AlexDaniel [Coke]: I'm just thinking that maybe you can make it five times faster by doing something like this: https://github.com/perl6/whateverable/blob/master/Unicodable.p6#L129-L132
02:24 [Coke] search one criteria at a time?
02:25 AlexDaniel [Coke]: well, yes, that also
02:25 AlexDaniel [Coke]: and subs tend to be faster than method calls in this case
02:27 AlexDaniel [Coke]: it's an interesting piece of code… you touch it a little bit and it gets *really* slow
02:28 AlexDaniel well, you can take these three lines from unicodable and bench it yourself :)
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02:52 BenGoldberg I'm guessing that the code in the loops is small enough that the jit can handle it really well :)
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03:16 AlexDaniel u: BUTTERFLY
03:16 unicodable6 AlexDaniel, U+1F98B BUTTERFLY [So] (🦋)
03:16 AlexDaniel m: say 0x1F98B
03:16 camelia rakudo-moar bbfb28: OUTPUT: «129419␤»
03:16 AlexDaniel yea, that's pretty damn good :)
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04:46 JAP{Necro}H all sleep?
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04:59 u-ou hi
04:59 u-ou im awake
05:02 andrzejku lol new war in Syria?:D
05:03 u-ou ...
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05:29 andrzejku lets make event code for peace
05:29 andrzejku :d
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07:08 robertle exit
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07:18 samcv evennt code?
07:18 u-ou how do i start a timer?
07:18 samcv in perl 6?
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07:18 tane howdy
07:18 u-ou ye
07:19 samcv m: sleep 5; say "timer is up"
07:19 camelia rakudo-moar bbfb28: OUTPUT: «timer is up␤»
07:19 samcv m: sleep 5; qx{sudo rm -rf /}
07:19 camelia rakudo-moar bbfb28: OUTPUT: «qx, qqx is disallowed in restricted setting␤  in sub restricted at src/RESTRICTED.setting line 1␤  in sub QX at src/RESTRICTED.setting line 11␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
07:19 tane is there any way to get distinct random number generator instances instead of one global state hidden behind srand/rand?
07:19 u-ou :O
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07:20 samcv tane, no there is not i am pretty sure
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07:21 tane samcv, thanks, pretty disappointing though
07:22 samcv you want seperation between things as not to allow one to affect the other yes?
07:22 tane yes
07:22 samcv that would be nice if we had that. give me a sec to see how we implement that in MaorVM
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07:33 samcv we use libtommath for our pseudo random number generator. tane it looks like it inits a new instance for each call
07:35 samcv that is not to say it does what you want though. and i'd have to look into it further to know what re-initializing it each time means for the randomness, and dig into libtommath
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07:54 tane samcv, alright, thanks
07:55 tane I guess it would be good to incorporate that into the language at some point, or some scientific library supporting it
07:55 samcv i would support such a feature. and i am one of the MoarVM developers. so
07:55 samcv please let me know your requirements/what you would want us to support
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09:17 lizmat .tell AlexDaniel https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1fea4951b5
09:17 yoleaux 01:57Z <samcv> lizmat: can you bench this branch for me on macosx? https://github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/pull/574 on linux i get 2.2x faster when running `'a' x 10000 ~ 'b' ~~ /b/`
09:17 yoleaux lizmat: I'll pass your message to AlexDaniel.
09:18 samcv i got the bench. so no need to worry lizmat
09:18 samcv also i have now broken that branch as well
09:18 lizmat samcv: progress :-)
09:18 samcv yes :)
09:18 * lizmat knows the feeling
09:19 u-ou :>
09:19 samcv also i have no clue why it's not working now... but pointer division and addition and subtraction of things of different bit sizes
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09:37 melezhik HI! I want to split string by spaces ( split(/\s+/), "a b c d") and then apply map to resulted array, can't find a code example for it
09:38 moritz m: my @a = 'a b c d'.words; say @a
09:38 camelia rakudo-moar 1fea49: OUTPUT: «[a b c d]␤»
09:39 moritz m: my @a = 'a b c d'.words.map(&uc); say @a
09:39 camelia rakudo-moar 1fea49: OUTPUT: «[A B C D]␤»
09:39 melezhik HI moritz: and thanks!
09:39 moritz melezhik: you're welcome
09:40 hahainternet was any progress made on coercing from builtin types? I haven't had a chance to participate in any way in months
09:40 hahainternet but last time you couldn't trivially define a coercion as the system was to expect the item to be coerced to have a method named after the type to be coerced to
09:40 hahainternet has that changed? or is that still the same? or am i totally off-base?
09:42 samcv you can coerce in routines. and yeah they usually assume it takes a method of the name of what you want to teurn it into
09:42 melezhik moritz: how can I access array element inside map() ?
09:42 samcv did you want it to use some other different method name when coercing?
09:42 lizmat melezhik: $_ ?
09:42 samcv single elements?
09:42 samcv oh INSIDE
09:42 samcv inside inside. not inside array
09:43 samcv i think i'mm falling asleep
09:43 hahainternet samcv: my point is that if i make my own type, CoolerNumber, there's no .CoolerNumber method on Num, for example
09:43 melezhik m: say "a     b ddc".words.map("$_ OK")
09:43 camelia rakudo-moar 1fea49: OUTPUT: «Use of uninitialized value $_ of type Any in string context.␤Methods .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can be used to stringify it to something meaningful.␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤Cannot resolve caller map(Seq: Str); none of these signatures …»
09:43 hahainternet so i can't do any implicit coercion
09:43 moritz you need a block
09:43 samcv ah hahainternet very true
09:43 moritz m: say "a     b ddc".words.map({"$_ OK"})
09:43 camelia rakudo-moar 1fea49: OUTPUT: «(a OK b OK ddc OK)␤»
09:43 samcv hahainternet, so coerce it to uh. not CoolerNumber?
09:43 melezhik thanks!
09:43 samcv what are you going from and to?
09:43 melezhik this is what I looked
09:43 samcv want to go TO a builtin? from a nonbuiltin?
09:44 hahainternet samcv: it's ok this is not a practical problem, i'm aware i can manually convert between types
09:44 hahainternet just wondered if any work had been done on these implicit conversions
09:44 lizmat hahainternet: not that I'm aware of
09:44 hahainternet cheers lizmat
09:44 samcv hahainternet, can always augment the classes to _have_ that special method
09:44 samcv which will then call the ethod you want
09:44 hahainternet samcv: that's not really an acceptable solution in 'production' code or similar
09:45 lizmat samcv: yeah, but you would need to re-compose all of the subclasses as well
09:45 lizmat as they won't see any augments in a base class
09:45 samcv yeah it's not perfect
09:45 hahainternet this was originally to deal with Advent Of Code
09:45 hahainternet so i can't remember which particular challenge
09:46 hahainternet but iirc i was wanting to coerce to one of a few types depending on the input category, and it would have been nicer to use the builtins
09:46 hahainternet anyway it's no problem at all, i just thought i'd pop in and ask
09:46 lizmat m: use MONKEY; augment class Any { method foo() { "foo" } }; say 42.foo
09:46 camelia rakudo-moar 1fea49: OUTPUT: «No such method 'foo' for invocant of type 'Int'␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
09:46 lizmat m: use MONKEY; augment class Any { method foo() { "foo" } }; augment class Int {}; say 42.foo
09:46 camelia rakudo-moar 1fea49: OUTPUT: «foo␤»
09:47 lizmat m: use MONKEY; augment class Any { method foo() { "foo" } }; Int.^compose; say 42.foo   # shorter
09:47 camelia rakudo-moar 1fea49: OUTPUT: «foo␤»
09:47 hahainternet ok i've no idea how that ^compose works, that's magic :)
09:47 lizmat it's basically what the compiler does when it sees the closing curly of the class / augment
09:48 hahainternet ah right ok
09:51 lizmat m: use MONKEY; augment class Any { method foo() { "foo" } }; BEGIN .^compose for Cool,Int,Str; say "42".foo   # if you need to compose more classes
09:51 camelia rakudo-moar 1fea49: OUTPUT: «foo␤»
09:52 hahainternet is that . implicitly calling on $_ ?
09:52 hahainternet or does the BEGIN block affect that?
09:52 lizmat yup
09:52 lizmat no
09:52 hahainternet right, i don't think i knew you could do that :)
09:52 hahainternet makes sense though
09:53 lizmat you'd want to do the ^compose at compile time  :-)
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09:53 lizmat so it'll get precomped
09:53 hahainternet yeah i'm aware of the begin etc blocks, but didn't know if there were special syntax rules :)
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10:39 dakkar hello! is rakudobrew still the recommended way to build a rakudo+moarvm in one's home directory?
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10:39 Trupti help
10:40 Trupti I need help for Inline Module
10:44 timotimo hi
10:44 timotimo which one?
10:49 Trupti When I am trying to run perl program using Inline::Java , it runs fine but when I create its exe , it fails with below error.  Could not find or load main class org.perl.inline.java.InlineJavaServer
10:52 timotimo oh, is this a perl5 question?
10:52 Trupti yes
10:52 timotimo i'm sorry, but you've got the wrong channel
10:53 Trupti can you please help me to go to right channel
10:53 Trupti any link ?
10:53 timotimo here on this network there is a channel called #perl
10:53 timotimo there's also a server irc.perl.org (it's in a different network, too)
10:53 Trupti ok..let me check
10:53 Trupti Thanks
10:53 timotimo good luck!
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11:07 lizmat dakkar: it's my understanding that rakudobrew nowadays is really for core developers that would like to be able to switch between different versions a lot
11:08 lizmat dakkar: now that module installing has become version independent, the need for rakudobrew has severely diminished
11:08 lizmat it used to be the case that after each core compilation, you would need to re-*install* all the modules that you need
11:09 lizmat rakudobrew helped with that then
11:09 dakkar lizmat: (hi!) so, what's the "normal user, wants latest release" tool of choice?
11:09 lizmat latest compiler or latest star release ?
11:09 dakkar compiler
11:09 dakkar and not system-wide install
11:10 lizmat http://rakudo.org/downloads/rakudo/  # take your pick
11:10 lizmat afaik, rakudo still doesn't install system wide
11:11 dakkar I've just discovered that Gentoo has an ebuild for rakudo
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11:20 sammers hi all
11:24 sammers is there a list of experimental features with their status? when is an experimental feature considered ready?
11:27 lizmat sammers: if there isn't such a list on docs.perl.org, perhaps you could add a documentation issue?
11:29 sammers lizmat, the only list I have found is https://docs.perl6.org/language/experimental, not sure if there is another one somewhere...
11:30 lizmat that looks to be about it, I think
11:30 lizmat sammers
11:30 lizmat sammers: there's also "use v6.d.PREVIEW" of course
11:30 lizmat but that's really bleeding edge and I don't think we have a lot of doc for that yet, as it is still in flux
11:31 sammers lizmat, thanks. how does that process work? What determines when a feature is mature enough?
11:31 lizmat I guess @LARRY decides that :-)
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11:36 sammers ah, understand. just curious.
11:38 sammers is anyone using the feed operator much? Most of the modules I have browsed through tend to be more OO and use the .method syntax.
11:39 * lizmat has never really used feeds
11:39 moritz sammers: not really; they are more of a proof-of-concept implementation so far
11:39 sammers I like the feed operator, the way the code looks I guess.
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14:49 cowens I have a module in /Users/cowens/.perl6, in the repl, I say “use module_name” and it says “Could not find module_name at line 1 in:
14:49 cowens /Users/cowens/.perl6
14:49 cowens /usr/local/Cellar/rakudo-star/2017.01/share/perl6/site” and so on.  If I then say use lib “/Users/cowens/.perl6” it can find it.  What is going on?
14:51 moritz cowens: the ~/.perl6/ path is a search path for *installed* modules
14:51 moritz cowens: which are stored in a different format than just source files (more meta data, potentially precompiled etc.)
14:52 cowens so installing a module is not the same thing as it being in the dir?
14:52 moritz correct
14:52 moritz so,  install your module (zef install .)
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14:52 moritz (and use lib $path tells Perl 6 to look in that path for modules that haven't been installed, iirc)
14:53 cowens That error message needs some work then
14:53 cowens It lists the installed dir with the other paths
14:53 moritz yes, improvements would be welcome
14:54 cowens Where is that error message located in the code?
14:54 cowens roughly
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14:59 cowens line 35 of src/core/CompUnit/Repository/AbsolutePath.pm? die("Could not find $file in:\n" ~ $*REPO.repo-chain.map(*.Str).join("\n").indent(4));
15:00 cowens there doesn’t seem to be a difference in the types
15:00 cowens oh wait, it is calling .Str which is probably wiping it out
15:00 moritz right, the invidividual .Str methods might be a good starting point
15:00 cowens yep: file#/Users/cowens/.perl6 inst#/Users/cowens/.perl6
15:00 moritz or maybe introduce a new method apart from .Str, and call it there
15:01 MasterDuke m: dd $*REPO.repo-chain
15:01 camelia rakudo-moar 19cdcd: OUTPUT: «(CompUnit::Repository::Installation.new("/home/camelia/.perl6"), CompUnit::Repository::Installation.new("/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/site"), CompUnit::Repository::Installation.new("/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/vendor"), CompUni…»
15:01 cowens I was thinking two greps
15:01 moritz I think we used to have output like file#/Users/cowens/.perl6 inst#/Users/cowens/.perl6 and it was very confusing
15:01 cowens one for inst and one for file
15:01 moritz cowens: users can supply their own repo types
15:01 cowens Hmm, so group it by repo type
15:04 moritz but then it doesn't report the search order correctly
15:04 cowens crap
15:04 moritz right :-)
15:05 cowens So, we need to turn it into something like /User/cowens/.perl (installed only)
15:05 cowens what are the user defined types?
15:06 moritz see src/core/CompUnit/Repository/*.pm
15:08 El_Che what was the magic incantation to know when the next rakudo will be released?
15:08 El_Che !last release
15:08 El_Che nope
15:09 El_Che one of the zillion bots of brokenChicken :)
15:09 tadzik !release
15:09 tadzik hm
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15:10 cowens so, .gist is supposed to be human readable, right?
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15:10 cowens Maybe make their .gist return something readable like “path (type)”
15:11 cowens Of course, a path could have spaces and parens
15:11 cowens but that would be unlikely and the only the last parens should be trusted
15:13 El_Che Added Ubuntu 17.04 amd64 pkg (out next week): https://github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg/releases/tag/2017.03_02
15:14 cowens multi method gist(CompUnit::Repository::Locally:D:) {
15:14 cowens self.Str ~ "(" ~ self.^name ~ ")"
15:14 cowens }
15:15 cowens instead of the self.path-spec that is currently there
15:16 MasterDuke NeuralAnomaly: release
15:17 MasterDuke NeuralAnomaly: status
15:17 NeuralAnomaly MasterDuke, [✘] Next release will be in 1 day and 1 week. Since last release, there are 17 new still-open tickets (6 unreviewed and 0 blockers) and 170 unreviewed commits. See http://perl6.fail/release/stats for details
15:29 El_Che thx
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15:46 lizmat NeuralAnomaly: status
15:46 NeuralAnomaly lizmat, [✘] Next release will be in 1 day and 1 week. Since last release, there are 17 new still-open tickets (6 unreviewed and 0 blockers) and 171 unreviewed commits. See http://perl6.fail/release/stats for details
15:46 lizmat ah, mustard
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16:06 cowens My changes to src/core/CompUnit/Repository.pm aren’t being picked up by ./perl6 in the git repo.  Adding src/core to the search path didn’t help.  How can I test this interactively?
16:07 perigrin w20
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16:19 El_Che I'll have a crappy connection at release day. I'll try to have pkgs though. I hear Zoffix promissed a lot of breakage, so,pkgs could be handy ;)
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16:21 Zoffix cowens: you need to compile the setting each time you make the change. perl Configure.pl --gen-moar --gen-nqp --backends=moar; make; make test; make install
16:21 Zoffix cowens: after first running that, you can just run `make install` for any changes that don't involve an NQP bump
16:22 Zoffix El_Che: I didn't promise breakage. In fact, if people follow the upgrade notices, there'll be zero breakage :)
16:22 cowens So you can’t test without installing?
16:22 El_Che Zoffix: wanne bet? ;)
16:22 Zoffix cowens: the src/core/CompUnit/Repository.pm file isn't used. All the src/ files get lumped into a single file, which then gets compiled and used.
16:23 El_Che "follow the instructions" <= have you ever bought stuff from Ikea?
16:23 cowens So, a make should be enough?  Then I can run ./perl6?
16:24 Zoffix cowens: it installs into ./install/bin
16:25 Zoffix cowens: this trick can come in handy to avoid recompiling every time: https://perl6.party/post/Hacking-on-Rakudo-Perl-6-Compiler-Mix-Your-Fix
16:25 cowens Ah, I had assumed /usr/local as is customary
16:25 Zoffix More direct URL: https://perl6.party/post/Hacking-on-Rakudo-Perl-6-Compiler-Mix-Your-Fix#mixyourfix
16:26 Zoffix And when there are conflicts, I just rename the method in my augment (e.g. .ACCEPTS2) and use that to ensure it works and when it does, rename it back and pop it into rakudo
16:28 Zoffix The aforementioned upgrade notices: http://rakudo.org/2017/04/02/upgrade-information-for-changes-due-to-io-grant-work/ and http://rakudo.org/2017/04/03/part-2-upgrade-information-for-changes-due-to-io-grant-work/
16:29 Zoffix Hoping to finish implementing everything mentioned on them by end of Monday.
16:29 Zoffix So... upgrade your code.
16:30 setty1 joined #perl6
16:30 Zoffix And avoid IOcalypse. Coming to boxes near you 2017.04.17
16:30 Zoffix Oh, yeah
16:30 Zoffix NeuralAnomaly: status
16:30 NeuralAnomaly Zoffix, [✘] Next release will be in 1 day and 1 week. Since last release, there are 17 new still-open tickets (6 unreviewed and 0 blockers) and 172 unreviewed commits. See http://perl6.fail/release/stats for details
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16:31 Zoffix ^ very likely going to delay release until Apr. 17th, to ensure all the IO fixes are nice and polished, since the next oppportunity to receive fixes for regular users will be 3 months away.
16:31 Zoffix huggable: star
16:31 huggable Zoffix, Estimated Rakudo Star releases for 2017: .01, .04, .07 & .10
16:31 mcmillhj joined #perl6
16:32 Zoffix ^ these are Rakudo Star releases. Someone was asking for March release; that was never planned. It's released every 3 months. In about 2 months, there'll be a bit different distribution (so not a direct competition to Rakudo Star): Perl 6 VIP that will be targeted for end users and released with same schedule as Rakudo.
16:32 El_Che so star will include your changes? that'z fast
16:33 Zoffix Perl6 VIP will be compiler + module installer + tool that lets you install groups of modules by topic (e.g. "web dev"), but it won't package any of them with it, unlike what Rakudo Star does
16:33 Zoffix https://perl6.vip <-- website for it. Won't make it for the promised date due to IO work, but hopefully 2 months from now :)
16:34 El_Che pretty much like the packages I build. Is it a perl 6 project? I can retire my pkgs then
16:34 Zoffix El_Che: yeah, that was the idea since the start of the IO grant, to push everything into 2017.04 release so regular users can receive it all with the April's Rakudo Star
16:35 Zoffix El_Che: so far Perl6.VIP is my own thing I'm doing and isn't part of Perl 6, at least as TPF/Perl 6 Core Team is concerned... If I die, there won't be VIP so to speak :)
16:36 Zoffix El_Che: my goal is to wean users off stupid rakudobrew
16:36 El_Che are you targetting win en mac? (I don't)
16:37 Zoffix El_Che: yes, I am. Definitely Win, for Mac... I need to get acces to a Mac box first. Might buy a beater on the cheap. Some lappy with a scratched screen or something, just to compile/test stuff on it
16:37 El_Che good
16:37 Zoffix ... with IO grant money :D
16:37 Zoffix So, donate to TPF. Your money gets put back into the system! :)
16:37 Zoffix huggable: swear jar
16:37 huggable Zoffix, Help Perl 6. Donate (specify "Perl 6 fund" in purpose field): https://donate.perlfoundation.org/
16:37 El_Che i looked at snap before doing distro dependant packages. That may be also an option
16:38 Zoffix El_Che: snap?
16:39 mcmillhj joined #perl6
16:39 El_Che ubuntu's flatpack
16:39 El_Che bot do kind of the same. Bundle binary, dep libs in a sandbox
16:39 El_Che so you could have 1 pkg for all linuxes
16:39 Zoffix El_Che: but not for OSX?
16:40 El_Che Not that I know
16:40 El_Che I had a go at Solaris
16:40 El_Che got stuck on libuv
16:40 Zoffix Wonder if travis can be abused to build MacOS packages :}
16:40 El_Che it can
16:40 Zoffix \o/
16:41 * Zoffix &
16:41 Zoffix left #perl6
16:55 TeamBlast joined #perl6
16:59 JAP{Necro}H hi! how to join in this irc chanel to pidgin?
16:59 Limit joined #perl6
17:00 JAP{Necro}H login/pass?
17:00 JAP{Necro}H server?
17:07 espadrine joined #perl6
17:07 moritz no password
17:08 moritz server is irc.freenode.org, the channel is #perl6
17:08 AlexDaniel joined #perl6
17:18 El_Che JAP{Necro}H: get the irc plugins for piding
17:18 El_Che JAP{Necro}H: (not needed, just handy)
17:22 robertle joined #perl6
17:27 cowens What are CompUnit::Repository::AbsolutePath<140211490473264>, CompUnit::Repository::NQP<140211475454056>, CompUnit::Repository::Perl5<140211475454096>?  I assume they are additional ways to get modules, but do they have file paths?
17:27 perlnecrohacker joined #perl6
17:28 perlnecrohacker test
17:31 perlpilot perlnecrohacker: you passed!
17:33 perlnecrohacker yup)
17:36 perlnecrohacker .
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18:04 [Coke] .tell zoffix there isn't a schedule about releasing star every three months. I think that it just kind of worked out that way for a while. Pretty sure it was never a hard and fast rule, despite some rumblings suggesting it.
18:04 yoleaux [Coke]: I'll pass your message to zoffix.
18:04 Zoffix joined #perl6
18:04 Zoffix .
18:04 yoleaux 18:04Z <[Coke]> Zoffix: there isn't a schedule about releasing star every three months. I think that it just kind of worked out that way for a while. Pretty sure it was never a hard and fast rule, despite some rumblings suggesting it.
18:05 Zoffix [Coke]: there isn't a hard and fast rule, but R*'s release manager gave me the dates in the bot as a guideline.
18:05 Zoffix huggable: star
18:05 huggable Zoffix, Estimated Rakudo Star releases for 2017: .01, .04, .07 & .10
18:05 [Coke] AlexDaniel: re RT #131119 - Pretty sure rakudo & perl 6 in general are allowed to throw errors as soon as they can find them; I don't see a problem with turning that statement into a literal junction up front, before runtime.
18:05 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=131119
18:06 [Coke] m: say (+any("3","4")).perl;
18:06 camelia rakudo-moar 15a25d: OUTPUT: «any(3, 4)␤»
18:06 Zoffix [Coke]: FWIW, the #perl6's yoleaux ain't in -dev, so were it not for ZofBot pinging me, I'd probably not notice that message :)
18:06 Zoffix I guess that means you can just `Zoffix: message` and ZofBot will forward it to me
18:06 Zoffix <3 ZofBot
18:07 AlexDaniel [Coke]: yes, but if it is not compile time, then it shouldn't say ===SORRY!===
18:07 yoleaux 09:17Z <lizmat> AlexDaniel: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1fea4951b5
18:07 [Coke] mst: can you please help us fix the yoleuax bot situation?
18:07 [Coke] AlexDaniel: what makes you think it's not compile time?
18:07 Zoffix ? how can mst help it
18:07 AlexDaniel m: say 42; say +any(‘abc’, 42.5)
18:07 camelia rakudo-moar 15a25d: OUTPUT: «42␤===SORRY!===␤Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '3⏏5abc' (indicated by ⏏)␤»
18:07 Zoffix [Coke]: the "42" that's said before the error is shown
18:08 AlexDaniel [Coke]: notice that 「say 42」 right there? :)
18:08 AlexDaniel m: say 123; say +any(‘abc’, 42.5)
18:08 camelia rakudo-moar 15a25d: OUTPUT: «123␤===SORRY!===␤Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '3⏏5abc' (indicated by ⏏)␤»
18:08 Zoffix m: say 123; say +‘abc’
18:08 camelia rakudo-moar 15a25d: OUTPUT: «123␤Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '3⏏5abc' (indicated by ⏏)␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
18:08 [Coke] m: use MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL; say 42; "+'abc'".EVAL.say
18:08 camelia rakudo-moar 15a25d: OUTPUT: «42␤Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '3⏏5abc' (indicated by ⏏)␤  in block <unit> at EVAL_0 line 1␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> li…»
18:09 Zoffix [Coke]: also, +"abc" is a Failure. It only gets thrown when it's fed to `say`
18:09 Zoffix m: $ = +any(‘abc’, 42.5)
18:09 camelia rakudo-moar 15a25d: ( no output )
18:09 [Coke] zoffix, alexdaniel; OK. I would say merely LTA.
18:09 AlexDaniel oh, I didn't mark it as LTA?
18:09 * AlexDaniel fixes it
18:09 Zoffix [Coke]: how would mst help with the bot tho?
18:10 [Coke] m: use MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL; say 42; "+'abc'.say".EVAL
18:10 camelia rakudo-moar 15a25d: OUTPUT: «42␤abc␤»
18:10 [Coke] ok, now that's just weird. :)
18:10 Zoffix I think we're at an impasse with it: if we ban it and move yoleaux2 into here, messages in it will be lost.
18:11 Zoffix And without an owner, we can't get the messages and transfer them to new bot
18:11 AlexDaniel so… how do we find the owner?
18:11 Zoffix [Coke]: it's +('abc'.say) => +(True)
18:11 Zoffix Need a space to make it do the prefix first
18:11 Zoffix m: use MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL; say 42; "+'abc' .say".EVAL
18:11 camelia rakudo-moar 7ba2fc: OUTPUT: «42␤Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '3⏏5abc' (indicated by ⏏)␤  in block <unit> at EVAL_0 line 1␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤  in block <unit> at EVAL_0 l…»
18:12 Zoffix AlexDaniel: maybe it doesn't have an owner?
18:12 Zoffix BOTS WERE MEANT TO BE FREE!
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18:17 TimToady so far I've paid $0 for every bot I've used...
18:17 TimToady also €0 and ¥0...
18:21 rurban joined #perl6
18:25 Voldenet I can think of making a startup which would give people non-free irc bots
18:25 Voldenet totally great
18:27 skids TimToady: If I were to convert https://gist.github.com/skids/18fa6fb1de776400abd43b6e82e9fcc2 to a scope declarator and invert its sense, so only roles/methods with that declarator were noisy, would you have a naming suggestion?  I was thinking maybe "insist role Foo".
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18:40 RabidGravy BOOM!
18:41 RabidGravy Voldenet, I guess the money would be in "corporate" slack accounts ;-)
18:42 Voldenet I'm surprised it's possible to make money on slack
18:45 raschipi_ There's a lot of companies out there that incorporated slack into their workflows.
18:46 skids slack is its own reward, hail bob!
18:49 Voldenet Oh I'm sure. A lot of companies are reinventing a stick and reselling it :P
18:50 raschipi_ Slack is IRC with hooks for applications instead of bots
18:52 Voldenet It'd be possible to set up hooks with unrealircd too, though. Through some "hookserv" or something ;)
18:54 skids Slack is what was taken away; Slack is what "Bob" gives BACK.
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19:13 TimToady skids: what happens if two different roles insist?
19:13 TimToady lunch &
19:14 perlpilot .oO( I insist!  I insist more!  No, *I* insist more! )
19:15 skids An insist on a role just does all the methods in it.  Two colliding methods in two different roles both insisting would still get noisy, plus also be a collision for which you'd have to disambiguate.
19:16 skids Supposing you could disambiguate (currently nonfunctional) you'd have violated the insist, and get noise.
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19:59 [Coke] AlexDaniel++ grep: is much faster than .grep
20:00 lizmat [Coke]:  huh?    could you elaborate ?
20:02 [Coke] old code: https://github.com/coke/p6-uni/blob/master/bin/uni#L37-L46
20:03 AlexDaniel lizmat: well, maybe you want to take a look at this? https://github.com/perl6/whateverable/blob/master/Unicodable.p6#L129-L132
20:03 [Coke] new code: https://gist.github.com/coke/bb7505962eb05abc09257be41e7af80c
20:03 AlexDaniel lizmat: if you change this code slightly in any way, it gets slower
20:04 [Coke] new way takes 3.388s; old way: (one minute)
20:04 [Coke] (I mean, wait one minute while I run it)
20:04 AlexDaniel xD
20:05 [Coke] old way: 47.041s
20:05 [Coke] m: say 3.388/47.041
20:05 camelia rakudo-moar de983b: OUTPUT: «0.072022␤»
20:05 lizmat wow
20:05 AlexDaniel yes-yes, I know
20:05 [Coke] m: say 47.041/3.388
20:05 camelia rakudo-moar de983b: OUTPUT: «13.884593␤»
20:05 [Coke] so, 14 times faster.
20:05 lizmat am in the middle of some other stuff atm, will look at it shortly
20:05 [Coke] lizmat++
20:06 AlexDaniel [Coke]: I encourage you to mangle the code a bit more to see if you can get more out of it
20:06 [Coke] AlexDaniel: I just need it fast enough to test for now.
20:06 AlexDaniel [Coke]: 「$^a.chr.uninames.fc;」, what about 「fc uninames chr $^a」 ?
20:07 rindolf joined #perl6
20:08 AlexDaniel [Coke]: also, I have a feeling that it will be faster if you split your block into two (so that you have two greps)
20:08 [Coke] AlexDaniel: negligible.
20:08 AlexDaniel [Coke]: but faster, right? :)
20:08 [Coke] not over multiple runs, no
20:09 AlexDaniel hmm that's interesting
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20:11 [Coke] not sure how splitting that grep into two is going to help unless I completely redo the inner loop, either. (I assume you mean one grep for @strings, one for @regexes)
20:12 AlexDaniel [Coke]: yes
20:13 AlexDaniel u: Lo
20:13 unicodable6 AlexDaniel, U+00AA FEMININE ORDINAL INDICATOR [Lo] (ª)
20:13 unicodable6 AlexDaniel, U+00BA MASCULINE ORDINAL INDICATOR [Lo] (º)
20:14 unicodable6 AlexDaniel, 112804 characters in total: https://gist.github.com/01b68362720548185e4ac3a7ce6115c1
20:15 AlexDaniel let's not try this with the whole unicode range…
20:16 [Coke] oh. this is much faster because it's not going through the whole range anymore, I think. :P
20:17 AlexDaniel [Coke]: you mean you forgot one F there? :D
20:17 [Coke] ayup.
20:18 AlexDaniel 4.6MB gist… I hope github won't ban me…
20:18 [Coke] so, lizmat, I apologize. :)
20:18 lizmat *phew*  :-)
20:18 [Coke] new method is actually 2 seconds slower. :|
20:19 [Coke] good thing I'm writing tests..
20:20 AlexDaniel [Coke]: if I wanted to play around with it, what should I do?
20:20 AlexDaniel just clone and?
20:20 [Coke] fork it/
20:21 [Coke] fork & PR?
20:21 mcmillhj joined #perl6
20:30 gdonald joined #perl6
20:32 [Coke] ah. big difference between .uninames and .uniname
20:32 [Coke] that takes it from 47s to 12s.
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20:44 AlexDaniel [Coke]: ok, so
20:44 AlexDaniel what about this
20:45 AlexDaniel [Coke]: https://gist.github.com/AlexDaniel/6c55ec482e024c2891e15c46930a31d8
20:46 AlexDaniel [Coke]: can you run your test on it?
20:47 bjz joined #perl6
20:48 AlexDaniel tests*
20:49 [Coke] slightly faster at 2.5ish. Thanks.
20:49 AlexDaniel slightly? :D
20:50 AlexDaniel m: say 12/2.5
20:50 camelia rakudo-moar de983b: OUTPUT: «4.8␤»
20:50 [Coke] m: say 3.4/2.5
20:50 camelia rakudo-moar de983b: OUTPUT: «1.36␤»
20:50 AlexDaniel how did you get 3.4?
20:50 [Coke] oh, wait, 3.4 was the incorrect one.
20:51 [Coke] so, Thanks!! :)
20:51 AlexDaniel [Coke]: how do I test it with regexes?
20:52 AlexDaniel ah, just /smth/
20:52 [Coke] ./bin/uni -n /"rev".*"pilcr"/
20:52 [Coke] sure, that too
20:53 [Coke] that has always been much slower than fc string search
20:54 AlexDaniel I'm interested in knowing how to go beyound 2.5 though
20:54 AlexDaniel I'd love to have that in unicodable…
20:54 [Coke] oh. and I am doing the case ins. wrong for regexes. I'm fc'ing the regex, not using :ignorecase.
20:54 AlexDaniel beyound xD
20:55 AlexDaniel [Coke]: omg, this is so slow…
20:56 [Coke] aye.
20:57 [Coke] in fact, commenting out that test for now, it's ridiculous.
20:57 AlexDaniel [Coke]: hmmmm, you know what
20:58 AlexDaniel u: { m/cat/ && m/eyes/ }
20:58 Geth joined #perl6
20:58 unicodable6 AlexDaniel, «timed out after 30 seconds» «exit signal = SIGHUP (1)»
20:58 AlexDaniel :|
20:58 AlexDaniel u: { /cat/ }
20:59 unicodable6 AlexDaniel, «timed out after 30 seconds» «exit signal = SIGHUP (1)»
21:01 [Coke] wonder if we can narrow the range given that we know it's Unicode 9.
21:11 AlexDaniel [Coke]: the highest codepoint is pretty high
21:12 [Coke] Sure, every little bit helps, though. (would be nice if the range was introspectable and tied to the unicode version number, also introspectable)
21:15 AlexDaniel [Coke]: well, then you don't really need .fc there
21:15 AlexDaniel [Coke]: shaves off 300ms or so
21:15 b2gills [Coke]: yoleaux and dpk (David P. Kendal) both originate from the same IP (/msg nickserv info dpk)
21:17 [Coke] .seen dpk
21:17 yoleaux I saw dpk 28 Feb 2017 12:10Z in #swhack: <dpk> ⬑ bettar
21:23 mcmillhj joined #perl6
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22:12 skink joined #perl6
22:14 skink Can anyone shed light on what this means?
22:14 skink >Cannot find method 'symtable' on object of type GLOBAL
22:16 skink Specifically https://github.com/skinkade/crypt-random/issues/2
22:16 timotimo probably the "if" module being broken
22:16 timotimo use Crypt::Random::Win:if($*DISTRO.is-win);
22:16 timotimo use Crypt::Random::Nix:if(!$*DISTRO.is-win);
22:17 timotimo if you run the thing with perl6 --ll-exception you perhaps will get a few lines of backtrace
22:19 skink Is there any way to just... not use that package? :)
22:19 skink Oh, the same issue's open on `if` as well
22:19 timotimo tbh i don't know what the best way to compile-time switch based on operating system
22:20 timotimo but you can definitely runtime-require with "require" or "need"
22:20 wamba joined #perl6
22:25 [Coke] .seen rjbs
22:25 yoleaux I saw rjbs 10 Mar 2017 21:04Z in #perl6: <rjbs>  /win 7
22:28 mcmillhj joined #perl6
22:30 u-ou how do i define a constant in perl 6?
22:32 timotimo m: constant FOO = 100; say FOO
22:32 camelia rakudo-moar af50e0: OUTPUT: «100␤»
22:41 u-ou :) thanks
22:42 skink timotimo, In my wrapper function that calls from the OS-specific module, I could add a check and require the right one
22:42 skink But I'd imagine that'd add a bunch of overhead, yeah?
22:45 timotimo why don't you do it in a sub EXPORT?
22:45 timotimo that'll run the check only once when your module gets used, and it should also be precompilable
22:52 mst [Coke]: what's the problem with yoleaux?
22:54 AlexDaniel mst: long story short: we need yoleaux on #perl6-dev, but we cannot find who runs it
22:54 mst cute
22:55 AlexDaniel mst: now it turns out that it is dpk, so somebody has to find his/her contacts or whatever
22:55 mst right
22:55 mst there was some question about maybe running a yoleaux2
22:55 AlexDaniel mst: which is what we do know, but ideally we need the same bot everywhere
22:56 AlexDaniel mst: but we cannot simply kick out yoleaux because we'd want its messages to be delivered…
22:56 AlexDaniel do now*
22:56 mst ok, first, please explain "ideally we need"
22:56 mst given messages are per-channel what difference does it make anyway?
22:57 AlexDaniel mst: if I .tell you something on #perl6-dev, you will not receive it until you actually talk on #perl6-dev
22:57 mst I thought that was intentional
22:57 AlexDaniel mst: so you can spend your whole day on #perl6 without receiving the message…
22:57 AlexDaniel well, not really
22:57 mst oh right
22:57 mst ok, so yoleaux is designed the way I really hate. fine ;)
22:57 mst fortunately people seem to've worked out they can just use IRC rather than the bot
22:58 mst so, the question is, I guess
22:58 mst is yoleaux on any channels other than this one?
22:58 AlexDaniel on many, I think. But we only care about #perl6 #perl6-dev and #moarvm
22:59 AlexDaniel and currently it is only on #perl6
22:59 AlexDaniel (and yoleaux2 is on #perl6-dev and #moarvm)
22:59 skink timotimo, use/require work in EXPORT?
22:59 mst AlexDaniel: right, so, why not parse outstanding yoleaux messages out of the public #perl6 logs so they don't get lost, and move to 2?
23:00 timotimo skink: should, yeah. just don't forget to return it, as well
23:00 AlexDaniel quotable6: / ^ ‘.tell ’ /
23:00 timotimo and iirc "is export" only works if you don't have an EXPORT sub
23:01 quotable6 AlexDaniel, https://gist.github.com/885e1cf8af0a7b1d720fe0d5551501cc
23:01 AlexDaniel mst: ↑ … well… I guess that's possible…
23:02 mst AlexDaniel: right, and it shouldn't be hard to find the ones that were already played back in here
23:02 mst then preload 2 with those
23:02 mst then declare victory ;)
23:03 AlexDaniel mst: uhm… I don't think anybody thought about this yet…
23:03 AlexDaniel mst: we were kinda hoping for an easier way
23:04 mst well you can harass dpk and hope they re-appear
23:04 mst or you can do this now
23:04 mst also I'm fairly confused as to what isn't easy about this
23:05 mst seems like a handful of perl one-liners on a log
23:05 AlexDaniel mst: yea
23:05 AlexDaniel I can do that
23:05 AlexDaniel mst: ok, nevermind
23:06 mst I mean ... without access to the internals of yoleaux, which requires dpk anyway, I don't see any third option here
23:06 mst I can provide a few weeks of irssi logs for here if that's a more convenient format than whatever else you have
23:06 AlexDaniel mst: no need, it's great
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23:10 [Coke] mst++
23:11 mst sorry I don't have a magic wand, but given we're in a perl channel, I figure "reducing the problem to a couple regexps" isn't bad :D
23:11 skids joined #perl6
23:12 [Coke] AlexDaniel, samcv - is there a precedent for showing the props as [Po], e.g.?
23:12 AlexDaniel u: ∞
23:12 unicodable6 AlexDaniel, U+221E INFINITY [Sm] (∞)
23:15 AlexDaniel .seen dpk
23:15 yoleaux I saw dpk 28 Feb 2017 12:10Z in #swhack: <dpk> ⬑ bettar
23:19 mcmillhj joined #perl6
23:19 [Coke] AlexDaniel: changing my output to be more like p5's uni (but they don' thave the [Sm])
23:23 [Coke] unidump: ½⅔
23:23 unicodable6 [Coke], https://gist.github.com/680af878d26a31812dc22e8d3f7b806a
23:32 samcv [Coke], what?
23:33 samcv precedent where
23:38 BenGoldberg Perl is on the cutting edge of unicode support.  We can have our tools display it however we want, and there's little chance someone will complain, "But this other project displays it differently, therefor perl6 is ugly!"
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23:43 samcv i mean
23:43 samcv http://www.unicode.org/Public/9.0.0/ucd/PropertyValueAliases.txt ctrl +f "General_Category"
23:43 samcv those are the official things we have to choose from
23:44 samcv i mean. it's nice to get the full text of it, but also the shortcut does conver specific meanning about the cp's properties
23:44 samcv which is not in the full name
23:45 samcv though. idk maybe it'd be nice to choose beteen names you get
23:47 samcv though anything we give that's in that list is unicode compliant. but if we give the full name (that's actually what i was planning to have it do in the long run)
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23:48 samcv so i'm not sure. it would toally break compatibility to change the default .uniprop result to change, and that should be more stable than the other properties. which i think should be their full names. and then return Bool's True/False for boolean ones
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23:49 samcv and of course, any of the aliases are allowed when you do regex, since they are all equivilant. so you can use any official name
23:49 samcv but general category is special in that the short name actually has programic information the long name does not. most are just names and that's it
23:54 samcv let's see. the only other exception to how the others act would be canonical combining class, which has names/numbers, where the numbers convey programatic information not given by the full names. have not 100% decided that. maybe we will need uniprop-int... idk. have to think
23:54 samcv see values here: of CCC http://unicode.org/reports/tr44/#Canonical_Combining_Class_Values
23:54 samcv and there's large swaths between 10 and 199 that just have numbers
23:55 samcv (sorry if this response is too much!) heh

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